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be N Ww ws Oo OY ~] oO WO a oO = be N Ww = Hs Oo a OY a ~] a oO a Ke) 20 21 22 23 24 25 Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 765 Filed 08/10/22 Page 65 of 95 2803 LCIAMAX2ps residence. And I think the testimony that was elicited by the defense went to what the ages of these multiple females looked like, because the inference is that there are, you know, literally hundreds of under-age women at Epstein's house. And so the testimony from Mr. Alessi was, he only saw two people that he thought looked under age, as opposed to the rest of these people. There was no testimony elicited that, you know, Ms. Maxwell did or didn't know what -- I mean, the contention is that these folks were older. Kate, for example, the contention is she wasn't under age. THE COURT: Yesterday, I think Ms. Dubin was asked how Jane appeared to her. MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct, at the office. But also think that that's a tension here, is that Jane was older than she is saying. You know, the actual factual dispute is, Jane says she was 14, 15. We disagree. We believe it's later in time. So this is not an avoidance issue. This is a factual dispute as to how old these people actually were. With the exception of Carolyn, who says, you know, I was this age, and we say, we never, you know, had anything to do with Carolyn. That's the factual dispute. And so I think there is a legitimate argument that doesn't relate to conscious avoidance, which is, simply, there SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00014369