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Page another individual from -- with Ted from 2003 till 2009 or '10. At what point in that whole period is there like more of a break, where you're no longer acting as his general manager? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I I wanted to have a full break when I started dating Ted. And he was clever. I I I suppose it would be true to say that I fF viewed Mr. Epstein, at that point, as sort of Lf you will. Like someone I could rely on. And I should have had more confidence in myself. I can see that now. But at the time, given everything that had happened in my life, I thought that it would -- and I saw how he was with other people like Eva, who seemed to be very comfortable with him, and I thought this would be -- and he always said, I was like family. So he worked hard to make -- maintain a relationship with me. He was generous with me. He let me use the plane, for instance, which was very generous, he would check in with my mum. He did things that were meaningful to me in that time. And then, it may still not have worked, but that his -- his mother, Paula, had been in a very serious car crash. And I -- she had become sort of MAGNA®© LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR-00022430