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Page 163 But I know that they certainly do that. would imagine -- and in fact, I think I have a memory, but I can't -- that when Harvey was trying to raise money for whatever his business was called, can't remember what his business was called. Maybe he went there, because Epstein was good at raising money. I just don't know. But never saw them. I don't -- I don't recall seeing Harvey in any of the properties. TODD BLANCHE: Let's just go a few more minutes and take a break, I know it's after lunch. So do you -- we talked several hours ago about your father and his business a little bit. After your father passed, do you know whether Mr. Epstein was involved in your family business, that you know of? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely not, in any respect. First of all, there was no family business left. Start with that problem. And the second one is, my family didn't like him very much. And they were busy dealing with their own problems and there was no relationship whatsoever. Oh, I mean, he -- my mum and he got along quite well. That was it. But that was -- she's an old lady and, you know, he was nice to her. MAGNA®© LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR-00022555