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oO TN OA PF WN EF Page 62 heard him talk to people like that. I couldn't -- Sorry. TODD BLANCHE: No -- no. Go ahead. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. TODD BLANCHE: Did -- was there -- did -- did he give -- did Mr. Wexner gift a property in New York to Mr. Epstein? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So we're talking about 71st Street. So I don't know what the business deal was, because, again, I'm not part of his business thing, but I think what happened would be that, let's say Les owed him in, theoretically, for his services, $100 million or whatever it was. He could have traded that against the property. TODD BLANCHE: But do you know that that happened or that's -- are you -- are you kind of -- do you remember whether there was conversations about that or are you just thinking that could be one way that it happened? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not sure. And I'm not trying to be -- I ust don't remember if that's something I know or if that's something that I remember, or if it's something that I subsequently know. I believe -- I believe that to be what happened, but I don't want to tell you that I have -- Page 63 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that make sense? TODD BLANCHE: Did Mr. Wexner and Mr. Epstein -- are you aware of they -- of their falling out that they ultimately had? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think -- I wasn't there and I don't know how it happened. I only know what Les has said in the press. TODD BLANCHE: So you only know about their, you know, their falling out or whatever you want to call it, from what you've kind of read, not from any firsthand knowledge? You did -- you weren't there, you weren't part of that? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. TODD BLANCHE: Do you know somebody named Steven Hoffenberg? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Only from the press. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. And so you don't know anything about whatever business relationship they may have had, Mr. Epstein -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never spoke about him, never mentioned it. I -- I only learned about that, whatever that is, even -- I don't even know what the truth is of that story, from the press. TODD BLANCHE: How about Leon Black? MAGNAS® — On NDN OB WNP DO DO~AIGS OB WN PB MNNNNNDND ? ae WNHER OO WO OAD OP WNYHRF OW OHI DO BWN EH BO NMNM NN DW ?t ar WNYNRF OW Page 64 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, I did meet Leon. I do know Leon. TODD BLANCHE: When do you remember -- and again, I know we're talking about a very long time ago, but do you remember approximately when you met him? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I could have met Leon, not really -- so I might have met him, nothing to do, because Leon Black is very good friends with other friends of mine. I would've met him, when I say socially, I might have met him. How Leon and Epstein became really good friends, I don't -- I'm not sure. TODD BLANCHE: But not through you, as far as you recall? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Not through me as far as [know. No. I -- in fact, I'm -- I'm sure that's not through me. TODD BLANCHE: Do you know what kind of work Mr. Epstein was doing for Mr. Black over the years? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Same as what he did for Wexner. TODD BLANCHE: So we just talked about two individuals. And again, I know we're talking about a, maybe a 15-year time period or even longer. Page 65 How many clients like that did Mr. Epstein have? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But why don't I just give you the names that I remember and that's -- TODD BLANCHE: Say it again. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Why won't I just give you the names. TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Do you want the names? TODD BLANCHE: Sure. Go ahead. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Elizabeth Johnson -- Johnson & Johnson. TODD BLANCHE: When did -- as far as you know, when did the relationship between Ms. Johnson and Mr. Epstein start? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: '90s. '90 -- I don't -- I -- '95, '96. '90s. TODD BLANCHE: So during the time period? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. We're talking ‘90s. We're talking when I was there. When I was around. TODD BLANCHE: And how did the relationship start? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know how he became that friendly where he ended up managing her (Pages 62 to 65) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022672