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on TIMA OB WN TE Page 58 hypothetical -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The -- the -- please, that was completely hypothetical. TODD BLANCHE: -- but that -- but that would involve like, so two kind of drug cartels stealing from each other. Practically speaking, did -- he was a -- more of a businessman, correct? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So here's how I think that started, is that he had a girlfriend. It was always you -- you -- always to the girls. I guess there was a girl whose name will come back to me, maybe not, whilst we're here, but I don't know, maybe. There's a woman -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- there's always a woman. And he -- she was the daughter of a billionaire, for instance. And that billionaire, whoever his --whatever his name was, had had some money stolen. And for some reason this woman introduced Jeffrey, and Jeffrey, I think that's how that business started. That's what I remember. TODD BLANCHE: And is that something he told you about or something that happened while you knew him? Page 59 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. Something he told me before I met him. TODD BLANCHE: And so when you meet him and -- and once you're part of his life in the early to mid '90s, what is he doing to make money that you see? He -- does he have clients? Does he have rich clients? Does he have famous clients? And -- and how -- and what -- if he does have clients, what service is he providing them? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He does have -- well, obviously there's the one very famous client that everybody talks about, which is Les Wexner. That was a very important client to him. And he -- I think it's probably helpful to describe what I imagine -- what I imagine, know -- would I know to be true about what he managed for Les. And there's some bits that I'll be improvising -- TODD BLANCHE: Yep. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I want to just make you understand, I was not part of Epstein's business world, except tangentially and obviously. So what I'm talking about is I -- what I observed or what I overheard or what I saw within the business, but I MAGNA®© OBATNDOBRPWNF COW WOAIDHD OF WN FP NM NK ND ND t mMwWNHMRrR Ow Page 60 wasn't responsible for any of the client's money or anything like that. So it's separate. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Yeah. I understand. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. TODD BLANCHE: Go ahead. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with Les, for instance, it was really all encompassing. It could go from the structure of the business. So he would -- he structured or restructured The Limited. I know that, and I'll come back to that because I also traveled with him and Les, and I was in business meetings with them on the plane when they were there. So I could observe and I could hear some of this. And whilst I'm not necessarily terribly business sophisticated, I'm sophisticated enough to be able to at least have some knowledge of what was happening. All right. So then he restructured the business. He restructured his entire personal finances, and would also handle all of the investment strategy. I don't know if it was -- if 1t was a hundred percent -- TODD BLANCHE: Mr. Wexner is what you're saying? Page 61 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Sorry. Yes. All -- this is all Wexner I'm talking about now. So let's say you had a billion dollars to invest. So you would, you know, in people's normal investment portfolios, you would have, you know, some T-bonds and this and that, but Epstein's strategies would be much more sophisticated than that. TODD BLANCHE: And so just staying with Mr. Wexner. Does -- from what you heard or saw, is Mr. Epstein paid by him in percentages? Like so -- so there would be a deal and he would be paid or was -- did you understand it to be like a flat fee? Was he a business partner? Like how did you understand him to be paid? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think it was more ? la carte. So let's say this is a conversation I actually -- Epstein told me. So all -- illustrated for me, said if I saved someone $5 billion, he would take a flat percentage of that $5 billion. He wouldn't have $5 billion back, and he would take -- TODD BLANCHE: When you say you think that, is that because you heard him talking about that or you -- you ... GHISLAINE MAXWELL: It would be a combination of both. He certainly told me that and I 16 (Pages 58 to 61) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022671