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Or~ATIN OF WNP DH WAAIHDHO PWN FP told that video exists, like what we're talking about, or photos were taken that -- that were compromising? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So in the -- in both of those, I never received no pictures or anything from the civil case. TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But in the criminal case, I received videos of Epstein talking to women and stuff like that. I did get those. I also saw binders, photographs of women and (indiscernible). I never saw any, well, I don't know -- I don't know how old some of these women were. There were definitely some of the victims from Palm Beach, the photographs of them in -- in -- without clothing. TODD BLANCHE: And in that -- in those photographs, were -- the victims that were photographed, were there any of the people you've talked about? Like, were there men with the victims or were they just photographs of the victims? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: There was no men with these pictures. There was no client of his with those pictures. They would be standalone, for want of a better word, like modeling shots. If you were -- if you -- if you were, I don't know. Page 83 DAVID MARKUS: Pictures that Epstein had with the girls, but not Epstein with the clients and the girls. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Correct. TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- I understand you said you got those in the discovery. Did you know those -- those pictures -- pictures like that existed? So right now I'm talking about photographs of victims or photographs of women that Mr. Epstein had on his computer or wherever he had them. Did you know that those photos existed before you got them in discovery? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some of them, absolutely, because they were in his house. Some of these pictures were on his, you know, credenza or whatever. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Some pictures I've simply never seen before. I mean, there was -- I -- I had never seen some of them. Some of them I had, some of them I hadn't, I mean. TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- so -- so you're right, and I -- I accept that having video or photographs of somebody famous or powerful in a MAGNA®© ABAD OBFWNF OHM WAT HANO B WN EP OAD OP WNF DO WAIN PWN EF Nt oO © NO + ow Page 84 compromising position, would be good blackmail. But -- so separate -- putting aside what you've said about the fact that you don't know of any existence of those, did you observe, over the years, the folks we're talking about, or others which we can talk about, getting massages from young women? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- Ijust -- I think it's really helpful to understand a few things that has been missed 1n this whole mishigas. DAVID MARKUS: That's a technical term. TODD BLANCHE: I'll look it up later. Go ahead. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I thought about this obviously a lot and I've given it -- TODD BLANCHE: Yep. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- some -- so this is the benefit of -- some benefit of what I saw and some benefit of what I now think, so just for clarity's sake. I think -- I just want to say for the record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of, not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I don't want to, and I don't think he requires, nor deserves any type of protection or -- from me in any Page 85 way, to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do. So there's that. However, the man I met and the man he became, I believe that there is a progression, and I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became that man over a period of time. Now we can discuss anything you want and I'll tell you everything I know, but I think somebody who has an interest, however you define that, in underage people is obviously someone who 1s unwell. But I don't think that you wake up one day and you start doing what he's accused of. I think this is something that you develop or you progress to. I -- I think, because -- DAVID MARKUS: Ghislaine, before -- before you get into all that, let's answer the top line question and then get into it. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. The top line question is? DAVID MARKUS: Did you ever see any of these people with underage women? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No -- no. I -- so the reason I'm saying that is not -- is not to avoid that question, but it's because by the time, when you were 22 (Pages 82 to 85) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022677