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ABAD OBFWNF OHM WAT HANO B WN EP Page 86 talking in the '90s, I don't think he was there. I -- there's that description. I think that this, what you were talking about is a later version. TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that -- is that? TODD BLANCHE: No. I understand that and I do want to talk -- I'm not -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it's just I'm -- I think you need to separate the periods of time -- TODD BLANCHE: Sure. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it -- this -- one of the things that was definitely missing in my trial, and definitely missing from the narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened and he was always but -- no. [ don't -- I don't believe that to be true. TODD BLANCHE: So I mean, that -- that's -- that's fine. And I do want to talk about that. I'm not -- I'm not pushing that away. I'm just putting it aside for a moment. What Mr. Epstein did and -- and, frankly, what -- what you did, or are accused of doing, is one thing that I -- that we'll talk about, but what -- right now what I want to understand is -- is whether one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his Page 87 clients or -- or took care of them, or some would say blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have -- to interact with -- with women, underage or not. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think in the ‘90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were people who were in their 20s or 30s. TODD BLANCHE: So -- so. Understand that. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May have -- so he would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and female, by the way, in the '90s, that's never been discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were men as well as women. And so if he would travel, and I can show them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record, so you could see that there really were men that were also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga with Tito? Or would you like a massage with this one? But they would be in their late 20s and professional masseuses. TODD BLANCHE: So -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think there's a distinction. TODD BLANCHE: And I want to talk about actual individuals here. But -- and I understand the distinction between somebody who's an adult and -- MAGNA®© on TIMA OB WN TE NVFPRPRPRPRPPRP REE OCwWMODTAUBWNHEOOE A~ATIN OP WNF DH DAIHOBWNHE N+ Oo © Page 88 and -- and someone who's underage. But even with somebody who's an adult, did you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that, whether it's a client or somebody else? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with a -- with a -- I certainly witnessed him. So if you were staying with him and you had a massage that -- he would often travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you like a massage? And he did do that, yes. TODD BLANCHE: But would you or him or anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards, to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual contact? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never did, no. TODD BLANCHE: So meaning -- and then coming back to the blackmail issue. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yeah. TODD BLANCHE: There's nothing wrong with getting a massage, Of course not. Especially, you know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult, a masseuse. There's -- I'm not quibbling with that. But my question is that there's a lot of accusations that -- that one of the way Mr. Maxwell, I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was -- was through this idea of blackmail. Page 89 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never -- TODD BLANCHE: And yes, young -- young women and -- and is a crime. Children are -- is a crime. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely. TODD BLANCHE: But even women over the age of 18, if -- if Mr. Epstem encouraged these men or whomever to get massages and have inappropriate sexual contact with the masseuses, that's -- that's a separate issue. Maybe -- maybe slightly nuanced, but did you ever know him to do that? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I never did absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I never -- I never heard that. I never -- no one -- in the entire time I was with him or friends with him, or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to me and said that anything inappropriate happened or was upset by -- I never saw a tear. I never saw ever any of that. TODD BLANCHE: And when you say, "No one reported to me,” meaning like the masseuses -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. TODD BLANCHE: -- or any of the house staff -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never. 23 (Pages 86 to 89) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022678