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on TIMA OB WN TE Page 114 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I can't say that. I might have -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- I definitely might, either both in the Gulfstream or in the -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- in the -- I'm sure I did, but it's not -- I can't -- TODD BLANCHE: That's fair. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. I'm absolutely sure I did. I must have, because, you know, he was so obsessed of someone rubbing his feet or -- just -- when you ask me about massages, I want to be clear. I generally -- what I think of that is somebody on a massage table, but other people might think of it as something different. You know, you could have someone rubbing his feet or his shoulder. I saw that all the time. That I did. But sep- -- that's separate from being on a massage table. TODD BLANCHE: How -- again, I know we're talking about a decade-long period, but during the period we're talking about, in a seven-day week, how often would Mr. Epstein get a massage? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: In the '90s, when we're talking, he would get one every day. I think, Page 115 as that time progressed, he would get one, maybe twice a day. I do want to say that there was maybe a reason that things altered or morphed or progressed, and it is maybe part of the reason, also, that I -- he and I, our relationship or have a, somebody wants to call it altered. And he started doing testosterone and that altered his character. And I believe that started in the late '90s. And I believe that the FBI has his medical records and you may see that on his medical records. Yes. TODD BLANCHE: So you believe that he started taking testosterone in the '90s, and when you say that altered his behavior, you're saying it wanted to -- made him get more massages or that was just one part of what changed about him? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, he became more aggressive. TODD BLANCHE: I see. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And I think that he maybe -- well, now I'm just imagining that the testosterone altered his desires or something, does that -- TODD BLANCHE: And so when, given what you've said the past couple hours about his kind of ABAD OBFWNF OHM WAT HANO B WN EP A~ATIN OP WNF DH DAIHOBWNHE Page 116 progression or change, let's focus on that time period, so the more towards the late '90s. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: The testosterone. Yeah, okay. TODD BLANCHE: So '96, '97, '98, you know, toward -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yeah. TODD BLANCHE: -- when you've said that he changed. Did you know flat out that he was having sex or otherwise some sort of sexual conduct with masseuses regularly? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Flat out? No, I denied that. I couldn't imagine that he would but I think looking back now, that -- I did not. But I started to suspect that he was not faithful. Seems ludicrous but that's what I thought. TODD BLANCHE: But if -- look, if -- if he's flying from Palm Beach to -- to St. Thomas or if he's flying all over the country to New Mexico or to New York, or even in Palm Beach and there's young women, putting aside whether they're under the age of 18 or in their 20s, every day at the house, multiple masseuses -- multiple massages on some days, you're interacting with the masseuses constantly. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Huh? Page 117 TODD BLANCHE: Or maybe that's not right. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's not right. TODD BLANCHE: Let me take back what I just said. Ignore that part. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. TODD BLANCHE: But you understand that he is getting massages every day, sometimes multiple times a day. The -- by the late '90s, it's all women, presumably they're -- some of them are new, but they're also repeat masseuses. What did you -- I mean, you had to know at that point that there was something going on beyond just, he really needed to get massaged. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So -- very fair question. There's two things. The first is the person that he saw the most at that period of time was in her 40s. TODD BLANCHE: Uh-huh. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And she was with him all the time. And I'm, like, married as well -- TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And as -- I'm square. And it never occurred -- well, I don't believe it occurred to me at the time that with this woman, he would be having relations. And he was with her -- MAGNA® 30 (Pages 114 to 117) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR-00022685