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Page 313 think it -- because it was a self -- because so many people saw it of so many -- of such a high caliber down that never s med to think it would -- well, if they thought it was strange probably, they never said it at the time. So it became sort of like it was his thing, right? He was always around with women. Now, you don't -- I understand that it's very unattractive, especially in light of everything that we know today. But at the time, the only way can sort of try and describe it is through Sex and the City, the movie, the show on telly, where the -- this is -- that lifestyle is described on the TV show constantly. There are always these women around and n who like it. And a lot of the men that I know tke women, and so maybe not as overtly as Epstein, t he was overt, not covert, except obviously in the context of the criminal behavior. So what we're discussing now, there's a differenc betw n the criminal behavior and the non-criminal. But you don't like the lifestyle, concur. agree. Especially now. And F that fence that I was there and that MAGNA®© LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022856