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AANA FWNF DUO WAIHI PWN EE Page 277 with, all centered around Harvard. So I remember him. Martin Nowak, who's a mathematician. Stephen Jay Gould. I don't know if Stephen Jay Gould was -- came through the Harvard angle, but I know that there was a -- he would -- excuse me, Epstein would have dinners at the house that I was tasked to organize and the scientists were a very major component of that. They weren't social dinners as much as they were scientific. He would discuss whatever he would discuss. But 1f you were in the area of brain cognition or -- he would invite them to the house and they would come, all of them. All -- any name you can name, they would be there. TODD BLANCHE: So let's talk about that top -- that relation -- those -- those associations or relationships he had with the mathematicians or -- and with Harvard, and I think with MIT, to some extent as well. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Official (indiscernible) MIT too, yeah. TODD BLANCHE: What -- from what you observed, what's the reason behind him having -- developing those ties with Harvard, with MIT, and Page 278 with certain professors and others associated with those institutions? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: He really was profoundly interested in that area of science and in the brain, and in -- I mean, if you were in -- Stephen Jay Gould or the major scientist on happiness, I mean, it -- it came, I believe, from a genuine area of interest, not from anything ... TODD BLANCHE: And how did he -- how did he become friends with them? How -- how was he able to spend time with them? Meaning, did he donate to the university and then they were kind of -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Certain -- TODD BLANCHE: -- it was mandatory fun for them or did he have relations with them where he would, you know -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't know the chicken -- TODD BLANCHE: -- host them or -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't if the chicken or the egg came first. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But -- but when I met him first, I mean, he was already doing a lot of this stuff. This is not -- I -- I've read, so this is why AAD OPFWNF DH OATH UBF WNY HE Orx~AInN OP WHF DWM WDAAIHD OB WN FP DM NM HDHD DW tt oer WHR OO © Page 279 I'm saying this. I was not responsible for these -- for this area of interest. I mean, I certainly -- sorry, just to bounce a second before it slips my mind and I leave something out. There was an institute in New Mexico called -- anyone? The institute of -- it's very famous. We're not talking to the Alamos. Anyway, all right. There's a very famous institute in New Mexico, so you can look it up. You'll -- it'll come to you at the minute you put it in your computer. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And there had some of the biggest brains ever. Those -- that relationship came through me, so IJ -- that's me. And that is because my father was -- one of the major scientific hit up my family fortune, when I had one, came from scientific publishing. And when it started from the thing that you were asking me yesterday, my father was in the Second World War, I told you, and he won the military cross, and then he actually did become what was part of intelligence back in the war. And his job was to interrogate German scientists and prisoners of war. And then that parleyed into business with Page 280 Springer-Verlag and then into Pergamon Press, which was the scientific journals business. And he had an interest -- he believed that it's -- knowledge is what would prevent war. And the biggest scientific discoveries -- well, not all of them, but many of them are coming from the Eastern block and that's how we have the relationship with Santa Fe Institute. And Murray Gell-Mann, specifically. And I introduced Epstein to Murray Gell-Mann. Sorry, to go off on a tangent. TODD BLANCHE: This is at the Santa Fe Institute? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes, thank you. And Murray Gell-Mann was there, and Murray Gell-Mann and Epstein got along very, very well. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he was the man of the (unintelligible). Sorry. TODD BLANCHE: So do you know whether -- so while you -- when you meet Mr. Epstein in the early '90s continuing on, so not what he had done before, did he -- why do you think, from what you saw or what you heard, he had the relationship or wanted to have the relationships that he had with Harvard MAGNA® 17 (Pages 277 to 280) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022932