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on TIMA OB WN TE Page 285 owned that, I -- but that was before I think I came in and he had it, or he said he did. TODD BLANCHE: Got it. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And he had other businesses. He had -- I know this notion that he did nothing and he just was a grifter and whatnot. Okay. I'm not going to say that's not true, but it's not what I saw and it's not what I believe is true. Not because it couldn't have been that he didn't grift or whatever the word is off -- off people, but I saw where I thought looked like real work. TODD BLANCHE: Well, why don't we take a -- take a break. Okay. DAVID MARKUS: Yeah. Thank you. SPENCER HORN: All right. The time is now 10:35 and we'll take a break. (Off the record at 10:35 a.m.) SPENCER HORN: We are resuming from break. The time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. All right. So we've talked around this issue, but -- talked about it a little bit. I want to spend the next hour or so or however long it takes. When you -- when we -- I want to talk, Page 286 focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his criminal conduct with respect to women. Do you -- you said yesterday a couple times that, like, you now kind of recognize or think that there was things that he did that you didn't know about, and that he kept from you or that you didn't see. What did you see? So you said yesterday, and I'm not -- I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day. Women have said that -- that were there -- that say they were there giving him massages, said that those included some sort of sexual conduct, however, you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage, regularly. So what do you -- what did you see and hear at the time? And then I think, aside from what you saw and heard at the time, now that you've been through what you've been through and heard people say what they've said, and read what they read, what do you -- where does that leave you in your mind with what happened? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So I saw Epstein with women. I mean, what I mean by that is ODr~wAnA OAR WNHeRF OCW WAIN OO PWN PB Orx~AInN OP WHF DWM WDAAIHD OB WN FP NO + ow Ke} Page 287 he would have women around him, or women on the plane, or women in his house, or -- that's how I'm explaining that. Those women were very interested. What -- my characterization of the interest -- the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him, was characterized by -- excuse me, their interest in him as I would see it. And by that, I mean, I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him and be with him, maybe socially or whatever. I never saw anybody, not under any form of duress in any type of situation where they were, as I would characterize it, looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed. In the entire time I was with him or traveled with him, I never saw that. So any time I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him. He would ask people all the time, whoever you were, to massage his feet. It just was -- he'd be sitting there, and he'd have somebody massage his feet, or squeeze his shoulders, or -- I saw that a lot. It was an ubiquitous interaction, if you will. So I did see that. I saw physicality, but not anything that was -- I don't know how to Page 288 characterize it, anything that looked aggressive, I suppose, to define that. So I never saw an aggressive move. TODD BLANCHE: Well -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never saw anything that was -- TODD BLANCHE: Non-consensual. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Thank you. Okay. I never saw anything that was non-consensual. So if he -- well, maybe they didn't -- I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug, or I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was unconsensual. TODD BLANCHE: Did you see -- did you see him either receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages? Understanding you never saw something nonconsensual. Did you see him engage in sexual conduct during massages? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Well, you could define sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been, you know, less than normally clad for massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless, yeah, I did see that. So you would -- MAGNA® 19 (Pages 285 to 288) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022934