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OBATNDOBRPWNF COW WOAIDHD OF WN FP Page 281 and with -- and with MIT? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think that that may have come with Wexner. I'm not sure, but that's something that I think that Wexner maybe had a relationship with Harvard, and that he used that relationship to, I believe, he funded a lot. And if he didn't, that his clients of which Wexner obviously was one, would fund. And he would -- he would then make -- he would arrange the fund or -- TODD BLANCHE: Did -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- organize the fund, or I don't know. TODD BLANCHE: I'm going to take -- we'll take a break in a -- in a minute, but just to kind of set us up for what we're going to talk about next. Mr. Ep- -- we talked yesterday morning about Mr. Epstein's kind of business and how he had money. Did he seem to live beyond his means, as far as what he was making? So did you ever get the sense while you were with him, that it was suspicious or curious how he was able to have the funds to, you know, buy, you know, two planes, you know, an island, and New Mexico, you know, the ranch, almost -- almost Page 282 unlimited funds? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: You said it perfectly. I thought it was astonishing, but I didn't have any reason to believe that it came from anything nefarious. I saw him work. I never saw him really do anything, other than be on the phone, there's that, and he had a lot of meetings, but he had a lot of accounts. And he dealt with pretty much every financier that you could care to mention. And if I could have access to the names, I'd be able to tell you which ones you -- I just don't remember them all. But in every bank, Goldman, Lehman, all of them, to my mind anyway. And most of the major businessmen at that time, he was in the Council of Foreign Relations, so you had access. That's an extraordinary list of people. It just is. And then he -- you asked me about his, but I -- so I thought about it last night, how to try and explain what it was and I think the best thing is to focus only on Wexner's business. So I was present for some of their meetings in some of their business, and I listened. And so things that I personally recollect, and I know DAA ANHBWNHRF CDW WAIATBWN PB OrArnDoOBWNE Rh HOw NO + ow Page 283 I heard, was that he would -- when I told you yesterday, I think, that he would, no detail was too small, so he would do the contracts with the staff, I think, and I saw that myself. And he also organized all the trusts for all the children, so if Wexner had kids -- and Wexner -- I don't know if he did, he did have children. So every time there was a child, he would create a trust for that child. And I don't -- these were complex financial structures that would contain stocks of the various businesses. He restructured, when I was there, Wexner's business in its entirety, as I recollect. And then not only that, but there were business interests, so Wexner owned or build, or designed, or I don't quite know how to characterize it, but New Albany, which is a center outside of Ohio, Columbus, Ohio, specifically. And he built -- I remember this conversation, he built himself a very large house, like truly enormous and it's one of the biggest private homes I've ever been to. And he built all the houses around him, and I'm like, this is so random, why would you do Page 284 that? And he said to me, well, because I want to make sure that the people around me are my friends -- I want my friends around me and my neighbors. And I was like, well, whatever. Okay, you know. I've been around enormous wealth my whole life, and I've like -- at some point I just say, okay, whatever. I get it, and I don't. And so that's what he did. But Epstein ran New Albany, which included a country club and a golf club and a -- I mean, gosh, your boss is one of the all-time great, you know, businessmen in this area. You know what that is. And he certainly does. So there'd be that, and there was a business business that Epstein -- well, he told me he owned it, but of course, I can't say that for sure, because I don't know, but it's a sports thing. Riddell, is that a business? Riddell's? I thought about it last night. It's red and had hats, helmets. Riddell's? LEAH SAFFIAN: Riddell. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Riddell. Yeah, Riddell's. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Now, how he owned that -- well, he told me he owned it, but how he MAGNA® 18 (Pages 281 to 284) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022933