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onwtrn Oe WN EP Page 293 not -- I just wanted to tell you how -- TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah, I don't want to get into -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm not -- TODD BLANCHE: -- he said, she said. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- no, no. Absolutely not. I'm not -- I don't want to go there either. TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm not going to do that. But I believe that what took place, with a lot of these people, is that there was a slide, right? So there was a zone and I -- he did meet her and I did meet her, and I knew that she was a young child and I knew that she was not an adult, because -- but I don't believe he met her 'til she was 16. So I'm not -- I'm not doing a he said, she said, I'm not doing that, because nobody will. That's not what we're here for. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But he didn't meet her ‘til she was 16, and the entire testimony of the 14, 15, and 16-year-old is, therefore, not accurate. Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother? I absolutely did. And did I know that she Page 294 was young? I absolutely did. But everything that took place that was alleged at trial at the 14, and 15, and 16, is not accurate. And -- I don't -- TODD BLANCHE: There's testimony or there's -- and again, I'm using testimony in the broadest sense. Some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits about you and Mr. Epstein giving, like an 18 -- you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true would, by definition mean you knew that she was under 18. Do you recall doing that? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I do not. I mean, no memory of that at all. And I believe that would be the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast for who she really is. Her name is ig. So I did not meet MAMMA Until actually, she was either 20 or 21. So 1t would be very hard for me to have given her an 18 birthday card. And the testimony -- there's also -- TODD BLANCHE: Do you accept -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- that slid back. TODD BLANCHE: -- do you accept that at some point, and we talked about this yesterday about ODr~wAnA OAR WNHeRF OCW WAIN OO PWN PB OAD OP WNF DO WAIN PWN EF NO + ow NO NM BD +t Nr OWo Page 295 how Mr. Epstein changed, but at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I accept. TODD BLANCHE: And I think you said yesterday, but say it again since we're talking about it. Is that something that you, in your mind, one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I -- when -- I just also want it to be clear, I never understood that change to encompass children. I did see from when I met him, he was involved or -- involved or friends with or whatever, however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s. And then the slide to, you know, 18 or younger looking women. But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior. It never ... TODD BLANCHE: And so when you read, I guess, two different times, right? One was during the Florida investigation, when -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. TODD BLANCHE: -- there were eventually public statements from some of these now women who testified about what they did with Mr. Epstein when they were under 18. Page 296 At that point, did you realize or did you think to yourself, this happened or this could have happened, I missed it, or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or were not remembering what happened the way that -- accurately? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: That's a very fair question. So I think that my view of this at that time, to call it as contemporaneously as it did, because I don't think that stuff came out in public, right? I mean, I may have read things, but I don't -- my first real --- TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, that's fair. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- memory of that is at the tnal. But my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that iil lied in her civil deposition. And I could never recover from that, because -- TODD BLANCHE: What are you -- what are you -- which lie, what are you referring to? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Her entire characterization -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- of -- no, I don't remember how she came and whether I did, -- MAGNA® 21 (Pages 293 to 296) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022936