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on TIMA OB WN TE Page 297 TODD BLANCHE: I see. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- but I'm talking about the first time she came to Epstein's house, which I knew -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- to be false. So from that first lie of that description, I could never recover from that. TODD BLANCHE: I understand. Okay. So -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And that tainted -- sorry. Just so that we clear it, tainted, then, the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience, which I knew to be false. TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And the reason why I think -- and I said to Mr. Markus that -- this morning that we were going to talk about this, because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein, the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you, okay? And now you've explained, the last day and a half, how some of that's just a misperception, because you weren't -- you didn't have a key to his house, you weren't around as much as maybe everybody Page 298 claims you were, okay? But there still is this perception out there that, oh my gosh, if -- if we could talk to Ms. Maxwell, we would know how horrible Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was. Whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein. And the challenge in my mind, just to be -- I told you I would tell you when I had issues -- and the challenge in my mind is that so many women have -- have said that Mr. Epstein sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or adults, that I don't find it -- you know, at some -- that's persuasive, right, that that happened. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Okay. So -- TODD BLANCHE: And so if that's persuasive then -- and J think it's without -- beyond contestation that he preferred younger women -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I -- TODD BLANCHE: | -- and it's also beyond, I think at this point, there were certainly circumstances that underage women -- well, I don't want to say that you agree with me on that. I certainly believe that there were younger age women that were abused by him, okay? And so -- and then so the layer that I want you to -- ABAD OBFWNF OHM WAT HANO B WN EP Xe] 20 21 22 23 24 25 BANOO BFWNHRrF OO WMAATHD OB WN EP N+ Oo wo Page 299 that I really want to have a frank discussion about, is some of these women have said, oh, yes, you know, Ms. Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees. She saw me there, she -- the door was open when I was there. And then much more egregious, right? That you participated and that you were part of it. And so what I really want you to have an opportunity to say to us, is where on the spectrum the truth is. Whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme, understanding. In my mind, I'm talking about 1994 or '5, to whenever, late '90s or early 2000s. DAVID MARKUS: And let me just interrupt. All I would say is, we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein. I agree with you that the evidence is overwhelming against him, and he -- he is his own person and has to deal with that. But Ghislaine can speak about what she knows -- TODD BLANCHE: Yes. DAVID MARKUS: -- and from her point of view and what she did. And that's what you can talk about, Ghislaine. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. Page 300 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think it's helpful to put this on -- the time on the calendar, because I think without that we, we're lost. So I would say we'll go from the beginning '91? No. '2? No. '3? No. '4? No. '5? No. '6? No. In that time frame, you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute. I don't think he met her until she was -- TODD BLANCHE: Let's not talk about individuals. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No, no, no, I'm just saying. TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But there's only -- but there's only -- so in that time period, I am only aware of her. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm aware of a girl, , who said, but -- and MRSS nd lll those -- I don't know of any others. And if there are other people who are making allegations about, I don't -- I'm not even -- I'm not actually aware of them. I may have read them 1n the -- but I don't know. So I think in the early '90s period, I DOJ REDAC MAGNA® 22 (Pages 297 to 300) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022937