DOJ-OGR-00022940.tif

DAATNOAFWNHRF DMO WAIHD OF WN FE that -- part of the house. If I saw people, and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give him a massage, that wouldn't be true either. But if I saw someone, let's say, I wouldn't -- I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child, no. Specifically someone who accused me of seeing her at the time when she came. If I did see her, and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all, but if she did, she was as her -- she's described herself now, was very mature and looked in her 20s. So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like, with a photograph that was produced as evidence? Yes. But I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs. Did I see people come? I absolutely did. Did I -- I just didn't see children. I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child. And if I had seen a child, I wouldn't -- I'm not sure what I would have done. TODD BLANCHE: Well, did you -- just talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger Page 310 OBATNDOBRPWNF COW WOAIDHD OF WN FP NO + ow picture, do you -- at the time that you were in his life, did -- do you -- was he a -- did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or, I don't know what the right way to describe it. But when you say to me, he was getting massages every single day, right? So young women were everywhere. Multiple massages on some days. Flew with the women to the island, to New York, Paris. There's always women, they're always rubbing him, giving him massages. I think it's -- it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I agree. TODD BLANCHE: We've all kind of been part of the Epstein story over the past several years, but you were there at the ttme. Okay? What was it like at the time? I mean, was he a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing? Was he protective of how he looked publicly, image wise? Like at the time, what was it like? 19 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I think ifhe had been 20 creepy, like, as you would define, and you would 21 expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be 22 creepy, I don't think the women would have been 23 there. 24 I don't think that they thought of him as 25 DAAINDOFWNHRF DWM WAT A OB WN HE Page 311 creepy. And if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being weird. Was it a lot? Yes, it was for sure. I found it overwhelming, and I couldn't understand why it was interesting, because to me, it's not interesting. But he, as he defined it, he found it invigorating. He liked being with younger people and not just younger people. I'm just saying because they gave him ideas, and they were up to date on music and -- TODD BLANCHE: Yeah, but that's different, like, a masseuse coming every day. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I'm just telling you what he was saying to me. TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I mean, to me, I just found it a drag and difficult and annoying. TODD BLANCHE: Did you -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: But understand I wasn't the only person present. So this time in the 2000s, you're talking about other people, like Sarah Kellen, who was around, who interfaced with him. I didn't have to -- she was really interfacing with Epstein at this point in time tn his life. She was running his -- she was his assistant. Page 312 And so I didn't have to -- TODD BLANCHE: That's a fair point. But move beyond the -- his assistants or the folks that work with him. What about his friends and the people that were associated with him? It couldn't be -- it doesn't -- I don't understand how that -- how this is an after fact of Mr. Epstein. So once he's arrested in Florida, it becomes part of his story. And then later on he's charged in Southern District, and then here we are now in 2025. But he was a very successful, hardworking guy, and he had a lot of clients, and he flew with them on vacations and went to the island. It doesn't -- I don't understand how he was able to hide this, what seems to me to be some sort of sexual fixation or issue -- GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't -- TODD BLANCHE: -- from -- from others? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I don't think he did hide it. I -- that's the answer. And I think that the people around him, I think, myself included -- TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- obviously, normalized his behavior on a number of fronts. One, MAGNA® 25 (Pages 309 to 312) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR-00022940