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OBATNDOBRPWNF COW WOAIDHD OF WN FP Page 317 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- and you're talking about very substantial people. And you are extrapolating because the narrative that started in -- by the way, not until 2009, is when it really started. So that narrative that was created and then built upon, and it just mushroomed into what -- basically this is like a Salem witch trial. People have gone and lost their minds for this thing. I understand that. But the issue is, how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle because it's like P. Diddy in Redux on TV with Clintons and Trump. I mean, it's -- it's bananas. And while some of it 1s real, he did do those things. I'm definitely not disputing that. But this was a man, they didn't even believe he had a real business. I happen to believe he did. Did he grift? I don't -- I don't know, because I wasn't really in his business. But this is -- this is one man. He's not some -- they've made him into this -- he's not that interesting. He's a disgusting guy who did terrible things to young kids. You're not going to hear me say what he did to people who Page 318 are over the age 18. I'm sorry. I'm not going to go there. That's just not what I'm here to -- I mean, I -- okay? But to suggest that Larry Summers or Clinton would certainly go, oh my gosh, this is like a guy I'm going to get my body rubbed and have some sex. They're men that went and had a massage and maybe did something sexual, they're men, I wasn't in the room. I cannot tell you 1f that happened. And if it did, not -- I never paid for that. Just so that we're clear. Nobody ever said to me, oh, you know, we had sexual intercourse and that was a three, uh-uh (negative). I'd be like, okay. TMI, no, not my business. You want to -- it's just not. And I didn't want to know. Maybe there's that. But did I, like, think these guys were coming for that? I really don't. If you met Epstein, there 1s no way that this cast of characters, of which it's extraordinary, and some are in your cabinet, who you value as your coworkers, and you know, would be with him if he was a creep or because they wanted sexual favors. A man wants sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that. Now did some? Okay. I don't know. I ODr~wAnA OAR WNHeRF OCW WAIN OO PWN PB NONMNMN DNDN +t fs COE NO a? CO) onan OB WN TE ho oO wo Page 319 wasn't there. I didn’t see it. TODD BLANCHE: So when's the last time you think you were with Mr. Epstein when he got a massage? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I want to say 2007. TODD BLANCHE: 2007? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Yes. TODD BLANCHE: And the frequency at that point, so 2007, is that when it was at its peak, would you say? Meaning the number of interactions he was having daily with women and masseuses? GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I wasn't really in his life. I happened to be in the Caribbean in 2007. I was with Ted. TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: And we -- I was still speaking with Epstein, because I was still involved in his -- you know, loosely with his -- the houses and the staff and some of the billing. And he -- and I was going back from being with Ted in the Caribbean to New York, and Epstein offered me a ride. And so Ted dropped me off in Saint Thomas, and I was on the island, I believe, for one day and one night only. On that visit, I believe -- well, I know he would have gotten a massage, but I have -- there Page 320 were people there, but I did -- that were women. And I was -- TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- just relieved not TODD BLANCHE: Okay. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- be leaving the next day. TODD BLANCHE: Let's take a break. SPENCER HORN: Well, we're going to take a break. The time is 11:31. (Break at 11:31 a.m. to 11:49 a.m.) SPENCER HORN: We are resuming the audio recorded proffer agreement with Ms. Maxwell, and the time is 11:49 a.m. TODD BLANCHE: All right. I wanted to follow up about former President Clinton's relationship with Mr. Epstein, not you. Can you -- we touched on it, but can you just to set the -- I have a couple questions about it, but what's your understanding of their relationship from what you observed? Meaning former President Clinton and Mr. Epstein. GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I saw them talk. I saw them sit down and have chats about, I don't know, MAGNA® 27 (Pages 317 to 320) LEGAL SERVICES DOJ-OGR- 00022942