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01:31:08 01:31:10 01:34:13 01/31:16 O31:18 04:34:18 09:39:18 04:37:20 01:34:22 04:31:24 01:34:25 01:34:29 04:31:30 04:34:34 04:31:34 04:34:35 04:34:37 04:31:41 04:31:44 04:37:42 01:34:43 04:31:44 01:31:46 01:34:46 01:31:48 04:31:46 07:31:46 01:32:26 04:32:27 01:32:27 07:32:31 01:32:34 01:32:34 01:32:39 01:32:40 01:32:43 01:32:46 01:32:48 04:32:50 04:32:55 07:32:57 04:33:01 07:33:04 01:33:07 SON OM bh ONH a wo 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 On Oa h ON = 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 07:33:09 25 21 of 38 sheets 81 focusing on the witness, but everybody on this side of the room has been distracted by his unprofessional conduct. MR. SIMPSON: I'm not going to argue with you. AndI-- MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. MR. SIMPSON: -- I disagree with that characterization. There is another attorney sitting between us. We will pass notes. MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. MR. SIMPSON: And we -- and I believe, Ms. McCawley, were you instructing not to answer or what was happening? What did you ~~ what were you raising? MS. McCAWLEY: No. There was a lot of yelling going on here, so I was trying to make sure that everybody was quiet -- MR. SIMPSON: All right. MS. McCAWLEY: answer. MR. SIMPSON: All right. Let me back up. BY MR. SIMPSON: Q. Professor Cassell, I think you were in the ~- so that the client could middle of an answer? A. Iwas. Yes, if I could conclude -- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 82 MR. SIMPSON: All right. Could the court reporter read me the last two lines of your answer? THE WITNESS: Okay. (Thereupon, a portion of the record was read by the reporter.) BY MR. SIMPSON: Q. Okay. Can you pick up then? A. Sure. Tl pick up -- pick up the -- Q. Okay. A. So Iwas beginning to draw an adverse inference when Jeffrey Epstein, who is at the heart of the sexual abuse of, not only Virginia Roberts, but dozens and dozens and dozens of -- of girls literally scattered across the globe, takes the Fifth, refuses to answer the question, off the top of my head, I can't recall exactly, but something along lines of: Do you know Alan Dershowitz? And he says, I take the Fifth. That sort of, frankly, startled me, that -- that this international sex trafficker was taking the Fifth now when asked about Mr. Dershowitz. And so I was stymied in trying to get information from Mr. Epstein at that point. I think there were two depositions, if I recall correctly off the top of my head, that -- that I had an opportunity to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 OV3314 04:33:13 04:33:14 04:33:47 07:33:20 04:33:24 04:33:26 On Oak WH = 04:33:28 or3331 9 or3333 10 ovaa3ze 14 ov33a40 12 013344 13 ov3347 14 01:33:50 15 ovass3 16 orasss 17 04:33:58 18 ors4o1 19 0134-04 20 orsaor 24 orsao7 22 onsen 23 orsa1s 24 onsets 25 01:34:27 04:34:25 09:34:27 04:34:30 04:34:33 01:34:35 01:34:38 On Oa hk WH a 04:34:42 orssss 9 orssas 10 O134:54 11 orn3asa 12 04:34:57 13 or3s00 14 07:35:00 15 or3502 16 61:35:05 17 oras09 18 orssr2 19 orssts 20 013897 21 07:35:18 22 oras21 23 01:35:23 24 01:36:26 25 Page 81 to 84 of 151 83 review, in which he took the Fifth when asked questions about Dershowitz. So, at that point, in trying to figure out, you know, whether Mr. Dershowitz was involved in sexually abusing, not only Virginia Roberts, but in other girls, then you go down to the next level, next layer of the criminal conspiracy. Epstein is at the top, so you go to the next layer. These are, you know, basically the -- the women who, from what I could gather, were -- were older than the age that Epstein wanted to sexually abuse, I think these were 22 and 23-year-old girls, so they had, you know, essentially aged out of being his sexual abuse victims, but they continued to -- what they would do is collect girls for him under the age of 18, that I guess was in his target range. And so what -- so the next person I wanted to talk to, you know, and get information from was Sarah Kellen. Sarah Kellen is on a lot of these flight logs with, you know, these girls that -- or women and with Epstein and others, and so I wanted to talk to Sarah Kellen. But what I discovered there was that, when Sarah Kellen was asked about Alan Dershowitz, she took the Fifth, and there was -- she wasn't the only one. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 84 There was Miss Mucinska, who also took the Fifth when asked questions about Alan Dershowitz. And then there was Marcin -- Miss Marcinkova who also took the Fifth. So what we -- what I had at this point was Jeffrey Epstein's international sex trafficking organization. I had the next echelon, and both the top kingpin of the sex trafficking organization, and the next echelon had taken the Fifth, had refused to answer questions about Alan Dershowitz. And so, at -- at that point, I was drawing an adverse inference, not just from one person, but from four persons, and that adverse inference was being strengthened by the surrounding circumstances, some of which we have already talked about. One of the things that -- that really bolstered the adverse inference that I was drawing in this case was that I've mentioned those three girls, Kellen, Mucinska, and Marcinkova, They were all covered by a nonprosecution agreement. And the nonprosecution agreement was highly unusual. I -- I had been a federal prosecutor for about four years, I had been a federal judge for about five-and-a-half years, so I had seen a lot of -- of, you know, nonprosecution types of arrangements. And one of the things that was very unusual in this one is, it has ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS (954) 331-4400 10/20/2015 01:07:28 PM HOUSE_OVERSIGHT_010830