EFTA02453353.pdf

From: Sent: To: Subject: jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 4:53 PM Re: in a two player game what if one player BELIVE= there is an observer but there is not. the payoff matrix shou=d change.? On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 12:48 PM, =om <mailto > wrote: > On Aug 24, 2016, at 06:09, jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com <mailto:jeevacatio=@gmail.com> wrote: > do you believe a bunch of chemicalls has a goal, ? It depends a bit on how we use the words; do you think that a bunch of chem=cals can do mathematics or be money? I think it makes sense to say "y=s". A goal is part of a causal model that we use to describe a agent that can c=mmit to pursuing a world state. Outside of this model, the word has no mea=ing. Within the model, it makes the behavior of some bunches of chemicals =omewhat predictable on a particular level. I think most chemical systems do not have goals, in the sense that we canno= meaningfully ascribe to them that they have agency. For that, they need - some kind of preference system, - a way to determine and represent world states, - a way to make decisions for world states based on the preferences, - a way to act on decisions so that the preferred world state becomes more =ikely. For instance, a corporation is an agent in this sense, and a cat is too. Pe=haps would say that cells can have goals, too. A Roomba cleaning robot is a particularly good example: when it cleans the =oom, it has no goal, because it has no model of the cleanliness of the roo=, and no preference to make it cleaner. We can test for this: if its dirt =ontainer is full, it will happily make a clean room more dirty, because it=just moves randomly around while rotating its brushes. The cleaning is an =mergent result. On the other hand, when it runs low on battery, it will explicitly search f=r its power station and drive there to recharge, and after that, it will c=ntinue cleaning. It explicitly represents the charging state, and when sta=ved for power, it commits to a goal that makes it direct its actions on en=ering that state. in his classical book "vehicles", looks at=different kinds of cybernetic feedback systems, and at different kinds of =gency that can be implemented in them. My own thinkin is mostly shaped by=the ideas of social agency, by the Italian computer scientist and by > isnt that in your words just one of the stories we =ell ourselves.? why is it not merely chemicals EFTA_R1_01554136 EFTA02453353 I would say that a goal is part of a "software specification". Nature can get a bunch of chemicals to enact this specification. But it can a=so be done mechanically, electrically or socially. > . like in a magnetic field forced to line up w=th other chemcilas in the vicinity, . more Hike magnets =lining up. Do you think there is a lowest level, and that it makes sense to speculate =hat it is? Fundamental physics explores the idea of the lowest causally closed level. = made an online survey during the FQXi conference, and got 49 responses fr=m the participants. 18 believed that the universe is fundamentally just ma=hematics or information (8 of those think it is just information). 19 beli=ve in a material universe (4 of those think only space or spacetime exists=. 15 respondents hold that a conscious observer or God is necessary (some =f them overlap with the materialists). For what its worth, the idea that only information is real does not seem to=be especially strange. What is your view/intuition? You are right when you say that my view is strongly influenced by being a c=mputer scientist. Once I made the leap that our observations of the world =re fundamentally not different from what a computer game player can observ=r on his screen, and that we can produce every conceivable sequence of obs=rvations via a computer program, I saw no way out again, especially after = got to see observers/minds as computer programs, too. Everything we know =bout ourselves, we know through sequences of observations, too, and observ=tions are sets of discernible differences (= bits of information). Cheers, =AO please note The information contained i= this communication is confidential, may be attorney-client privileged,=may constitute inside information, and is intended only for the use =f the addressee. It is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclos=re or copying of this communication or any part thereof is strictly pro=ibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication =n error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to =a href="mailto:jeevacation@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeevacation@gmai=.com, and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, inc=uding all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved 2 EFTA_R1_01554137 EFTA02453354