EFTA02458906.pdf

From: on behalf of Ben Goertzel la Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 2:25 AM To: Jeffrey E. Subject: Re: quick question -- AGI-16 snacks and reception sponsorship? Hmmm... I have been thinking a lot about music too, but from a different perspective... Do you know this paper on Combinatorial Music Theory? paper: http://andrewduncan.net/cmt/ video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMDtp89Xqlw It's extremely good, it clarifies some basics of music theory in a mathematical way without the confusing archaic terminology of standard music theory... and suggests various interesting new directions... This paper is also related and somewhat worthwhile https://www.math.washington.eduhmorrow/336_09/papers/Ada.pdf though neither as easy-to-read nor as interesting... What these papers are getting as are the hidden abstract-algebraic and information-theoretic structures underlying melody and harmony... What you're talking about regarding symphonies is sort of like "narrative structure" in stories it seems like -- or "discourse planning" in dialogue -- i.e. it's higher-level That level is important, for sure. But what the papers I've linked above are getting at is a bit lower-level --- more analogous to the syntax and phrase/sentence level semantics of language, I would say. The algebra and information theory of melody and harmony have to work out at the level of individual chords and melodic passages, for the higher-level development of a symphony or other complex work to make sense... About > I mashed all of the four symphonies together , > playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed on each > other, I have done stuff like that before, but not with classical music... with my own recordings ;) .... Do you have a sound file of your experiment? I'd be curious to hear... EFTA_R1_01563485 EFTA02458906 Interestingly, the "plumbing" work we've been doing to connect OpenCog to the Hanson robots would also enable us to use OpenCog for music composition / improvisation experimentation ... (i.e. we've been dealing with real-time input and output, which we hadn't been doing before) But at the moment (this opinion is of course subject to revision) I somewhat feel that the basic problem of "what makes a melody /harmony / rhythm pattern sound emotionally and cognitively appealing" has to be solved before one moves on to issues of symphonic structure.... I.e., we probably gotta solve folk music before we can solve Beethoven or Bartok ... Meyer's old theory of "surprising fulfillment of expectations" http://rhythmcoglab.coursepress.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/10/Emotion-and-Meaning-in-Music.pdf is basically correct IMO (if you don't know that book check it out, you'll love his classical music examples) ... but the subtle point is that the expectations and the surprise we experience are a subtle mix of -- basic mathematical music-structure factors, as in the vein of the two papers I linked above -- human psychology factors as modeled e.g. in Joscha's work and in the Component Process Model http://boccignone.di.uni mi.it/CompAff 2015 Jiles/Phil.%20Trans.%20R.%20Soc.%208-2009-Scherer-3459-74.pdf) which we have introduced into the OpenCog / Hanson Robot codebase to fill in certain gaps in Psi -- human body-rhythm patterns, to do with the way the rhythms of different subsystems of our physical bodies overlay on each other, which we perceive all the time sub and semi consciously and which influence our perception of music; obviously even classical music without a drumbeat is highly rhythmic... -- more abstract cognitive pattern recognition So a good melody packs up "surprising fulfillment of expectations" where the expectation and fulfillment are assessed according to a combination of the above 4 factors ... and if you leave any of the above 4 factors out you're going to get lots of "false positives" ... All of the above factors are there in Chinese, African etc. music as well as Western music, but manifested in different ways... I can pretty clearly see how to seriously investigate the above but I can't at the moment see a "quick and dirty" way to make huge progress quickly ... while seemingly simple, the question of "what makes a melody appealing" actually wraps up a lot of issues ... BODY, EMOTION, COGNITION ... plus MATH-OF-MUSIC ... Fascinating stuff though ;) If you want to design a research programme in this direction I'd be game to participate; I don't want to drop my other OpenCog R&D obviously but music just fascinates me at a heart as well as head level, so I'd be willing to put some time into this in parallel with making the Hanson robots work... I do have a feeling that to really crack the problem of what makes a melody sound good, one has to crack the problem of how feeling and body and cognition work together, which is a key problem for AGI generally speaking... -- Ben P. S. 2 EFTA_R1_01563486 EFTA02458907 Of course, complex development of themes and counter and sub themes and so forth is not exclusive to Western classical music.... For instance this 30 minute instrumental-rock song composed by Buckethead in memoriam for his mother has incredible subtlety of development https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESPXYehrir( ... so many themes introduced in the first half and then complexly, genetically crossed over and synergized in the second half.. It is my firm conviction that Buckethead will be remembered as the Beethoven of the early 21st century ;) For me the ultimate is Prometheus, by Scriabin, though... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GEwho6Dbnc do you know it? Wow.... This is cognitive and emotional development beyond the ordinary human level, such as only a true genius madman could produce. I had an amazing mental experience in San Francisco in 2012 listening to Prometheus 10 times in succession ... try it sometime... On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:39 AM, jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com> wrote: > looking for AI and music. . a melody is a strange object, it is an inter > as well as intra relation with notes and time. . there are inherent > harmonies. and dissonance.. what i wrote to chonsky this moring > today I conducted an experiment encouraged by Noam's wholly justified > aggressive and detailed directives to joscha. . joshcha focused on layers > being developed in the brain . the timing for the development of each > layer being different per species . > I postulate that music might be a frosted window into that structure. > symphonies begin with their first " layer " a theme. in fact , there > might be more than one theme in the first layer „ the second part of > symphonic form is the complex development stage. where those themes > are inverted, deconstructed , reconstructed etc ,and the development stage > takes the most time . in the conclusion of the symphonic form the > recapitulation of all that has come before it forms a " phenenoma of the > piece " a whole ,made up of its smaller concepts . As opposed to > listening to music to record which neuron is firing, as most musciolgists > attempt . I propose that the music may be the audible result of those > neurons firing, made possible by a select few who would attempt to notate > those neuronal firings. Beethoven for example. > The experiment . I mashed all of the four symphonies together , > playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed on each > other, playing at the same time. - the way a brain might develop. I expected an > ordered noise but to the surprising contrary, IT WAS AMAZING. . > you can hear new "concepts " forming, > it wonder whether in the mind of a blind child , the " music" would > be created even without the visual referencial. but created none the less. > later when the visual can be tied to concepts , the anatomy may be > hijacked to produce sounds . that somehow relate to the concepts. . 3 EFTA_R1_01563487 EFTA02458908 > I tried to mix music from different cultures- it didn't work. African > does not work with western europe,- chinese works with neither of the > other two. but within the same cultural music ( the brain of the local species > ) the mash ups are beautiful. > I would note that computers engage in "parallel processing" only in > order to take a hard problem and break it into its component parts , > working on each component separately, here each problem Interacts > and the their resolutions interact in remarkable ways. > -- > > On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Ben Goertzel c wrote: » (i.e. being a "fiscal sponsor" for the HIAI/AGI conference is within » Humanity+'s mandate as a 501(c)3, so there's no problem here...) » On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Ben Goertzel .: 1> wrote: >» We can route the donation through Humanity+, which is a 501(c)3 >» as we have done with some of your previous donations for my research... » > >» On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com> >» wrote: » » is it a 501 c 3 » » »» On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Ben Goertzel <:: > wrote: »»> » >» Hey there, >> >>> » >» Hope you're well... » >» » >» I'll send you another email about connecting this summer while » >» I'm in the US if you'll be around... »»> » >» This email pertains to the AGI-16 / Human-Level Al conference » >» which occurs upcoming week in New York (July 16.19).... at the New School. »»> » >» We are doing the last-minute nitty-gritty conference planning and » >» find ourselves short on cash for snacks and for drinks at the » >» conference reception / poster-session ... (the New School venue » >» proved more costly than planned... we chose New School as an old » >» college friend of mine is a prof and administrator there...) »»> » >» So I'm wondering if you might be willing to do a US$3000 » >» sponsorship (we have two other sponsors at the US$3000 level: Vicarious Systems, » >» and Demiurge Technologies).... (We don't actually need the $$ wired » >» immediately, a commitment is enough)... »»> » >» We can then serve everyone "drinks and snacks courtesy of Jeffrey » >» Epstein Foundation", or whatever foundation name you prefer (or » >» just keep it quiet if you prefer) 4 EFTA_R1_01563488 EFTA02458909 » >» This is not insanely critical, but it would be a help... I » >» believe these conferences are still quite valuable in terms of » >» keeping free and open dialogue about AGI going in the research » >» community, as opposed to having AGI work entirely sucked into the » >» proprietary halls of big companies... »»> » >» thanks » >» Ben »»> »»> »»>-- » >» Ben Goertzel, PhD » >» http://goertzel.org » >» » >» Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global » >» Brain is currently struggling to form... >> >> >> » » » » » » » -- » » please note »» The information contained in this communication is confidential, »» may be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside »» information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee. It »» is the property of JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of »» this communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and »» may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, »» please notify us immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to » » jeevacation@gmail.com, and destroy this communication and all » » copies thereof, including all attachments. copyright -all rights » » reserved »> »> »> » > -- >» Ben Goertzel, PhD » > http://goertzel.org » > >» Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain >» is currently struggling to form... » -- » Ben Goertzel, PhD » http://goertzel.org » Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain » is currently struggling to form... 5 EFTA_R1_01563489 EFTA02458910 > -- > please note > The information contained in this communication is confidential, may > be attorney-client privileged, may constitute inside information, and > is intended only for the use of the addressee. It is the property of > JEE Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this communication or > any part thereof is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you > have received this communication in error, please notify us > immediately by return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, > and destroy this communication and all copies thereof, including all > attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is currently struggling to form... <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/Propertylist-1.0.dtd"> <plist version="1.0"> <dict> <key>conversation-id</key> <integer>75384</integer> <key>date-last-viewed</key> <integer>0</integer> <key>date-received</key> <integer>1468203907</integer> <key>flags</key> <integer>8590195717</integer> <key>gmail-label-ids</key> <array> <integer>6</integer> <integer>2</integer> </array> <key>remote-id</key> <string>626913</string> </diet> </plist> 6 EFTA_R1_01563490 EFTA02458911