EFTA00058522.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00058522 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00058523 3 1 : The recording is on. 2 Today is Monday, June 14, 2021. The time is 3 3:14 p.m. This is 4 with the DOJ OIG. 5 My name is , I'm 6 a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 7 Justice Office of the Inspector General New 8 York Field Office. And these are my 9 credentials. The interview is with Federal 10 Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 11 . Did I say that 12 right? 13 -: 14 -: . Sorry. 15 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : And it is being conducted as 18 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 19 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 20 Today is June 14, 2021 and the time is again 21 : 3:15. 22 : 3:15 p.m. The interview is 23 being conducted at FCI Danbury in the training 24 center. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior 25 Special Agent EFTA00058524 4 1 • . And these 2 are my credentials. 3 : And 4 . This interview will be recorded by me, 5 Special Agent . Could everyone 6 please identify themselves for the record and 7 spell your last name. To start again, I am DOJ 8 OIG Special Agent -. 9 : Senior Special Agent 10 11 -• 12 : This is an official DOJ OIG 13 investigation into the death of Inmate Jeffrey 14 Epstein and the timing - everything that 15 surrounds that time. And you're being asked to 16 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 17 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 18 the DOJ OIG? 19 : Yes. 20 : Okay. Please review DOJ OIG 21 Form 226-2. I'm going to read the form out to 22 you and then we'll go through it. The form 23 states: United States Department of Justice 24 Office of the Inspector General. Warnings and 25 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide EFTA00058525 5 1 Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are 2 being asked to provide information as part of 3 an investigation being conducted by the Office 4 of the Inspector General. This investigation 5 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 6 General Act of 1978 as amended. This 7 investigation pertains to job performance 8 failure and security failure. This is a 9 voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not 10 have to answer any questions. No disciplinary 11 action will be taken against you if you choose 12 not to answer questions. Any statement you 13 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 14 criminal proceeding or agency disciplinary 15 proceedings or both. Now this is the statement 16 for you directly. I understand the Warnings 17 and Assurances stated above and I am willing to 18 make a statement and answer questions. No 19 promises or threats have been made to me and no 20 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 21 against me. Do you understand that? 22 : Yes. 23 : Do you agree to move forward 24 with the interview? 25 : Yes. EFTA00058526 6 1 2 3 4 : Please review the document and sign where it says employee. : Yeah. You're going to sign right where it says employee signature. 5 : And print your name below 6 that. 7 : My full name? 8 : Yes, please. 9 has signed the document. I am also going to 10 sign the document. 11 : Thank you. 12 : Yeah. 13 : What time is it 3:20 now? 14 : 3:18. 15 : I'm passing the document to 16 agent -. I keep avoiding saying your 17 last name. 18 : It's alright. It's 19 and I'll be signing the 20 document as the witness. 21 : Okay. Before starting the 22 interview, I would like to place you under 23 oath. , can you please raise your 24 right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 25 nothing but the truth during this interview? EFTA00058527 7 1 : Yes. 2 : Please let me know if you do 3 not understand any questions and I will repeat 4 it or try to rephrase it for you. What is your 5 current home address? 6 -: 7 : Can you spell that? 8 : Yep. 9 10 : What is your date of birth? 11 -. . . 12 : Your Social Security Number? 13 • • 14 What's your cell phone 15 number? 16 • • 17 What is your highest level of 18 education? 19 Bachelor's degree. 20 : Which college? 21 • 22 23 : And what was the bachelor's 24 degree in? 25 : In? EFTA00058528 8 1 : Yeah. What did you -? 2 : Forensic psychology and 3 counseling. 4 : You said forensic psychology. 5 : Forensic psychology and 6 counseling. 7 : Okay. 8 : And what year did you 9 graduate? 10 -: 11 : And that's in New York 12 City. Correct? 13 : Yes. 14 : Okay. What did you do prior 15 to working for the BOP? 16 : I was a New York City 17 probation officer. 18 : For how long? 19 : Three years. 20 : Did you have any military 21 service? 22 : No. 23 : How long have you served with 24 the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 25 : A little over ten years. Ten EFTA00058529 9 1 years and five months. 2 : Do you recall your Entry and 3 Duty Date? 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : And prior to that you said 6 you were with the New York City -- 7 : Probation office. 8 : -- Probation Office. And 9 that was for how many years? Three years? 10 : Yes. 11 : What did you do prior to 12 that? 13 : New York state corrections 14 officer. 15 : New York State. How long did 16 you do that for? 17 : About seven or eight months. 18 : And prior to that. 19 : I was a full-time student at 20 John Jay College. 21 : The short period with New 22 York state. Did you resign from the position 23 or -? 24 : Yeah. I resigned to go to 25 probation. EFTA00058530 10 1 : Okay. When did you graduate 2 from BOP training? 3 • • 4 : When and where was your first 5 office assignment with the BOP? 6 -: 7 : Okay. And what year was 8 that? 9 when I started. 10 : What was your position? 11 : Correctional officer. 12 : Did you stay there or did you 13 move on as a correctional officer? 14 : I was there from 15 . That's why I 16 transferred to MCC New York. 17 was my first day at MCC New York. 18 : Did you transfer as a -? 19 : Lateral transfer. 20 : Lateral transfer. So, you 21 were still a correctional officer. 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. 24 : Did you -? How does it 25 work in Allenwood? Are you assigned to one of EFTA00058531 11 1 the facilities or were you --? 2 : Yeah. 3 : -- rotated throughout? 4 : So, they - 95% of the time I 5 was at the Medium. But when we were short- 6 staffed, then I would go to the Pen on the low. 7 But they tried their best to keep you at one 8 institution. But you were hired for the entire 9 complex, so you could bounce around. 10 : Okay. 11 : When did you get promoted? 12 was the day I 13 got selected for lieutenant. But I started 14 here 15 : Okay. Did you hold any other 16 positions between correctional officer and 17 lieutenant? 18 : Correction officer was entry 19 level. Then automatic senior officer. Then I 20 was promoted to Senior Officer Specialist, 21 which is up under a GS-11 - I'm sorry, a GS-9 22 lieutenant. And then I'm now promoted to 23 lieutenant. So, the promotions were the senior 24 office specialist and the lieutenant. 25 : When did you get promoted as EFTA00058532 12 1 2 3 4 Senior Officer Specialists? -: -. No, I'm sorry. . I can't really remember which year. 5 : But Senior Officer 6 Specialist that is a lieutenant position? 7 : No. 8 : Oh. It's just the same 9 grade. 10 : No. Senior Officer 11 Specialist is an 8. 12 : Oh. And lieutenant is a 13 9. 14 : Lieutenant is a 9 and 11. 15 : I got you. I'm sorry. 16 : I just can't remember what 17 year I got promoted. I can't remember if it 18 was 19 : That's fine. 20 : On August 9 and 10 of 2019, 21 what was your position? 22 : Senior Officer Specialist. 23 : What shift did you work? Do 24 you recall? On August 9th and 10th. 25 : I don't remember what shift. EFTA00058533 13 1 2 3 you with it. : : Okay. I'm going to provide Okay. 4 : I'm going to provide you with 5 two documents. 6 : Okay. 7 : It states MCC New York Daily 8 Assignment Roster. 9 : Yep. 10 : One is for August 9th and one 11 is for August 10th. 12 : Yep. 13 : Can you just take a look at 14 it? 15 : Yep. 16 : Let me know if you recall. 17 : Yep. Yep-yep. Okay. We got 18 the 9th here. Okay. Yep. I was attorney 19 conference for Day Watch 8:00 to 4:00. That's 20 my regular shift. 21 : Which day was that? August 22 9th? 23 : Uh, this is August 9th. Yep. 24 And then for -. Wait hold on a sec. Oh. 25 Right here. Yep. I did overtime from -. EFTA00058534 14 1 Activities lieutenant is usually 2:00 to 10:00, 2 but I overlap because my regular hours are 8:00 3 to 4:00. So, usually when they have the Senior 4 Specialist 8s do activities, we have to wait 5 until 4:00 to actually start the role because 6 we are still doing our regular time. 7 : Okay. 8 : So, I did activities from 9 4:00 to 10:00 that night. 10 : Now we've talked to other 11 lieutenants and they said that they actually 12 start the lieutenant positions two hours 13 earlier. Is that the case with this case as 14 well? Did you start at 4:00 or did you start 15 at 2:00? 16 : I started at 4:00 because I 17 was attorney conference for my straight time. 18 : Okay. So, because you 19 did that then you actually did start at 4:00. 20 : That is correct. 21 : Okay. 22 : That is correct. 23 : So from 4:00 until 24 Did you actually end with what time it says on 25 that as well? EFTA00058535 15 1 : Yes. Yes. 2 : Okay. 3 : 4:00 to 10:00. And for 4 August 10th -. 5 : So, you didn't go until 6 12:00 a.m. You went until 10:00 p.m. 7 : That is correct. 8 : Okay. Yep. Yeah. 9 Because - okay. That makes sense. 10 : Yes. Alright. And then I'm 11 looking at the 10th - - August 10th. I was 12 SHU2. I was supposed to be attorney 13 conference. That was my post. But because 14 that happened with Epstein, attorney conference 15 was - all social visits was canceled. So, when 16 I came in that day, I remember the lieutenant 17 telling me to go to SHU to help out. Be extra 18 bodies in SHU. That day they put a bunch of us 19 in SHU to just be there and help out. Yep. 20 : So, when were you in the 21 SHU on August the 10th? 22 : Yes. 23 : No, what time? 24 : Um 8:00 to 4:00. 25 : So, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 EFTA00058536 16 1 p.m. 2 3 overtime. 4 : Yes. This is it. And I did : On August 10th. 5 Yep. From internal. We were 6 It was terrible with mandations and just 7 being short staffed. So. We all - everybody 8 that was there for day watch pretty much stayed 9 for evening watch. 10 : Okay. So, primarily what 11 we're going to be talking about though is your 12 - on August 9th, the shift from 4:00 to 10:00. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : And then we'll probably 15 ask you some questions -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- at 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 18 p.m. in the SHU on -- 19 : Yep. 20 : -- the following the day. 21 22 23 24 it. Right? 25 : Yeah. : Yep. You want these back? : Yeah. : Actually since you reviewed EFTA00058537 17 1 : We always ask people to 2 initial and date just so that you know what 3 document. You know because we're going to 4 attach this to the transcripts. 5 : Yes. 6 : So you don't have to -. 7 You can do that you want if you want to circle, 8 but up top. 9 : Okay. 10 : If you just want to 11 initial and date up there. 12 : And today is the 14th. You 13 can just put your name on the list too. 14 15 16 17 18 Okay. So where it shows. Okay. : Thank you very much. Yeah. 19 : You can hold on to those. 20 : She can probably keep 21 that in front of her, so that if we ask 22 : Okay. 23 : Just in case. 24 : -- you about other people 25 you can kind of refer to it. EFTA00058538 18 1 : Who was your supervisor when 2 you worked at the MCC on August 9th and 10th. 3 -: He's a GS-9 4 lieutenant. 5 : Is that 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. As a Senior Officer 8 Specialist, what's your daily duties? 9 : On that specific post or -? 10 Because it varies day-to-day. 11 : I was going to try to 12 differentiate between what you do before as a 13 Senior Officer Specialist to when you do 14 Activities Lieutenant. 15 : Okay. 16 : So on that post you said you 17 were an attorney conference. Right? 18 : Yes. 19 : What are your duties? 20 : Yep. So this post entails 21 pretrial inmates meeting with their legal team. 22 : Okay. 23 : Lawyers, probation, whoever 24 comes through on a legal matter. That's where 25 inmates meet with them on that floor for EFTA00058539 19 1 whatever reason. 2 : Okay. What about as an 3 Activities Lieutenant? 4 : Activities Lieutenant that 5 night? 6 : Yeah. That night. 7 : Yeah. So I'm required to do 8 rounds. Make sure that staff are alive and 9 well. Rounds of them doing their duties, 10 conducting their rounds, doing shakedowns. You 11 know making sure they're doing counts and 12 things like that. So basically supervising 13 staff. 14 : Okay. 15 : On counts and rounds. 16 : Yeah. On that note, counts 17 and rounds. Do you assist with doing the 18 counts and rounds? 19 : Negative. 20 : Okay. 21 : So you said though that 22 they make sure that you do them. How does a 23 lieutenant actually ensure that the employees 24 are doing their counts and rounds? 25 : Yep. So for instance if it's EFTA00058540 20 1 a certain day, we all have the operations 2 lieutenant will say hey I want you to observe a 3 count in unit 7 North. Or 9 North is doing a 4 bed book count. Go observe that count. So we 5 ensure that those things are being done 6 basically but when we make our specific round, 7 and we're speaking with the officer saying hey 8 is everything good. You know make sure you do 9 your rounds. Basically reinforcing and 10 reiterating because you know at the end of the 11 day we're all adults. So like you have a job 12 to do and we're just making sure. And you know 13 making sure you're doing it. We're not like 14 babysitting -- 15 : Sure. Okay. 16 -- and like hey, you know, do 17 a round. 18 : Do the officers though 19 ever actually participate in the rounds and the 20 counts? Are they supposed to do that at all? 21 : Say that again. I'm sorry. 22 : So are the lieutenants - 23 are they supposed to participate in any of the 24 counts and rounds done of the inmates so when 25 the COs are doing counts and rounds -- EFTA00058541 21 1 : Yes. Yes. 2 : Is that like a you're 3 supposed to do that like once a shift. 4 : No. So once a shift, we are 5 taking the count. So we are the ones in the 6 control center where the officers are actually 7 calling their counts in. So like observing 8 counts is something that we do irregularly. If 9 you understand what I'm trying to say. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : So like say for instance if 12 I'm activities today. I want to observe 7 13 North conduct a count. I want to go up to 9 14 North today and do a shakedown with them. It's 15 just something that as a lieutenant you take 16 the initiative and when you go to the unit you 17 say hey let's do a shakedown. Let's do a round 18 on this tier. Let's do a round on this tier. 19 You have any issues with any inmates? Oh yeah. 20 I had an issue with inmate Smith. Alright. 21 Let's go talk to Inmate Smith over there. 22 : So it's to your 23 discretion. 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. So it's not like EFTA00058542 22 1 you need to do this or do that. It's just if 2 you want to take the initiative to make sure 3 that they know where they're going and they're 4 doing it right -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : You do it. 7 : It should be done, but it's 8 not like hey Monday it has to be done. Tuesday 9 it has to be done. You know as a lieutenant 10 you should be a lot - you should be speaking 11 with the officers and in the mix and hands on 12 with them. But it's not like Tuesday you do 13 it. Wednesday you do this. Thursday you do 14 that. 15 : Okay. 16 : And in Special Housing Unit, 17 we should be walking every single tier speaking 18 with every single inmate as a lieutenant making 19 rounds in a Special Housing Unit. 20 : Can you kind of explain 21 that a little bit? 22 : Okay. 23 : So during a shift should 24 a lieutenant be going to the Special Housing 25 Unit -- EFTA00058543 23 1 : That is correct. 2 : -- and actually doing 3 that? 4 : Yes. So in general 5 population, that's the opposite of Special 6 Housing. When you make a round, like you don't 7 have to hit. So let's say that they have eight 8 tiers. Tier 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. You make a 9 round. You check on the officer. And then 10 you're in the unit but you're not because 11 inmates are out and about. So it's not about 12 walking every tier because the inmates are out. 13 But in Special I'm sorry, I'm just dramatic 14 with my hands. 15 : I love it. 16 : So in Special Housing, 17 inmates are locked down. So it's our 18 responsibility to go up on the tier and go to 19 every door and speak to every inmate because 20 it's not general population. It's not like 21 they can - when you come to the unit they can 22 come out and say hey lieutenant I got a 23 question. That's the reason why we have to go 24 to them. 25 : So the lieutenant does EFTA00058544 24 1 that though. 2 3 4 Yes. : Alright. For our round once a shift. 5 : So every shift a 6 lieutenant should be actually in the Special 7 Housing Unit checking on the -? 8 9 10 : Yes. : Oh, okay. : Yes. 11 : Is that in policy or is that 12 something that's new. 13 : It's our post orders. It was 14 in the post orders at Danbury. I know that for 15 sure. 16 : And who is it that's 17 actually responsible for doing that. Which 18 lieutenant? So for instance, each shift. 19 : Yep. 20 : Which is the lieutenant 21 that should be doing like a round or a count? 22 Did you say it was a round or a count? 23 : Either one. One is good 24 enough. So operations lieutenant is the 25 highest-ranking officer on shift on evening EFTA00058545 25 1 watch. So as an 8 acting as a lieutenant. 2 Like when I'm finished with that shift, I'll go 3 check in with him and I'll say hey what do you 4 need me to do. He'll go okay, I need you to 5 take the count in Control F4. I need you to 6 move this inmate from Special Housing Unit to 7 Suicide Watch. I need you to move this inmate 8 over here. And then after that I need you to 9 make sure all the food carts get up on time. 10 So I'm kind of like taking direction from the 11 operations lieutenant. And then we'll say 12 something like hey who's going to SHU. Me or 13 you? Oh, you go to SHU, hit all of this. I'm 14 going to be doing this. It's kind of like you 15 guys are. 16 : But every shift a 17 lieutenant should be in the Special Housing 18 Unit checking in with each inmate. 19 : Yes. 20 : Even the like midnight to 21 6:00 a.m. 22 : Well overnight is kind of 23 different because you're not -. You're making 24 a round but you're not tapping on every -. So 25 like if you're making a round in Special EFTA00058546 26 1 Housing Unit, and I'm walking past cell 1. And 2 he's like writing a letter or something. 3 Right? And the other one is like doing some 4 jumping jacks. And I'll show my face at the 5 door. You guys good? Yeah, Lu, I'm good. 6 I'll keep it moving. I'm not like hey do you 7 have any issues, tell me now. It's you know 8 what I'm saying. You make yourself present. 9 They know who you are. And that's the 10 opportunity for them to say what they need to 11 say if they have any issues or anything like 12 that. 13 : But even from like 10 14 p.m. to 6 a.m.? Because they're probably 15 sleeping between then, right? 16 : Yeah, but so, you're still 17 making a round and basically looking for live 18 breathing bodies. 19 : Okay. So and the 20 lieutenant should be doing that every night? 21 : Yes. 22 : Alright. 23 : I'm not really sure about the 24 morning watch shift. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058547 27 1 2 3 4 : I'm not a fan of morning watch. I didn't work too much morning watch. : So that 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. you're not exactly sure. 5 : I'm not sure. 6 : Okay. 7 : I'm not sure. Yes. 8 : Right. 9 : And 9s don't work overnight 10 anyway. Because there's only one lieutenant on 11 and that's only an 11. Nines leave at 10:00 12 every day. 13 : But basically from he 14 hours of 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. a lieutenant 15 on each shift is going to -- 16 : Yes. 17 : -- check in. 18 : Yeah. 19 : Okay. 20 : On August 9th from when you 21 were acting When you were Activities 22 Lieutenant. Did you supervise any counts? 23 : No. I don't remember 24 supervising any counts. 25 : Okay. When you came on EFTA00058548 28 1 What are the count times at the MCC? 2 : On weekends and holidays, 3 it's 10:00 a.m. Every day 4:00 p.m., 10 p.m., 4 12:01 a.m., 3 a.m., 5 a.m. 5 : What about weekdays? 6 : Same time but a 10 a.m. count 7 in the morning. 8 : Okay. 9 : So the 4, the 12, 3, and 5 - 10 excuse me - it's every day. But in addition, 11 on the weekends and holidays we have a 10 a.m. 12 count. 13 : Okay. 14 : So you said you did not 15 conduct a count though on August 9th. 16 : I don't remember. I can't 17 say. I don't remember that. 18 : I'm only following this 19 up because you said that you were supposed to 20 or 21 : No-no-no. 22 : -- maybe one of the other 23 lieutenants did. 24 : I don't' remember who 25 specifically - me or - took the count EFTA00058549 29 1 in control. 2 3 : In control. Yeah. In the control center. 4 : But then you -. 5 : In the control center. 6 : I thought you said that 7 they're also supposed to go to the doors and 8 knock and see a lieutenant's face. In the SHU. 9 : In SHU? 10 : In the SHU. 11 : But that's not a count. 12 : Okay. That's a round? 13 : That's just when you make 14 your lieutenant rounds. 15 : Okay. So did you do a 16 round? 17 : Yes. I didn't' observe the 18 count in the Special Housing Unit, but I do 19 recall making a round and hitting every tier. 20 : Do you remember around 21 when you conducted that round on the 9th? 22 : I remember around like 8:00. 23 So I want to say it was between like maybe 5 24 and 8. Around that time. 25 : Somewhere between 5 p.m. EFTA00058550 30 1 and 8 p.m.? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : You were in the attorney 5 conference room before that. Right? 6 : Yes. 7 : Was Jeffrey Epstein in there 8 with you? 9 : Yes. 10 : Who was he meeting with? 11 : A bunch of attorneys on a 12 daily basis. He always met with a bunch of 13 attorneys. 14 15 with him? 16 : That day? I can't even tell : How many attorneys were there 17 you how many. But it's never just one. It's 18 always more than one attorney. 19 : Did you interact with them 20 that day? Like when you were doing attorney 21 conference. Did he speak to you? 22 : Um. 23 : Did you speak to him? 24 : He had a bladder issue. So 25 because I'm a female staff, he had to use the EFTA00058551 31 1 restroom frequently. So I would call a male 2 staff over to help me. So in at that time, I 3 would have to call him to the door, put the 4 cuffs on him, pop the door and he would use the 5 bathroom. But a male staff would be with him 6 to do that 7 : Okay. 8 and would be the same 9 gender. So I do remember him being in attorney 10 conference. 11 : When you were doing the 12 evening count. Well evening rounds - 13 lieutenant rounds - was he back in his cell? 14 : No. He was still -. And he 15 always did open to close in attorney 16 conference. 17 : Okay. We'll come back on 18 that. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Do you have any other 21 questions on that topic? 22 : If you're going to come 23 back but I would just say what time did he 24 leave. Well I just said it. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00058552 32 1 : What time did he leave? 2 : About 8:00 because attorney 3 conference ends at 8 and 95% of the time when I 4 was there, he was always there from start to 5 finish. 6 : Okay. 7 : With attorneys though. Those 8 were attorney conference hours. And he always 9 did all the hours. 10 : When you were - as the 11 lieutenant when you supervised employees, how 12 many employees did you have under you? 13 : On the evening watch shift or 14 day watch, it just really depends. If you're 15 working day watch you have more staff on. It 16 would be over 50. 17 : Have you ever had like any 18 instructions or anything that came from up 19 above - any orders - and you had to pass it on 20 to people that report to you. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : How would you do it? 23 : We would usually do 24 conference calls. 25 : How do the conference calls EFTA00058553 33 1 work? Explain that. 2 : Yep. The phones that we 3 have, we just press three - three times. And 4 then whoever presses 3, we all hear each other. 5 We call those conference calls. 6 : Okay. 7 : We make announcements over 8 the PA system. But if it's like pertinent 9 information, we do the conference calls and I 10 was also the kind of individual where I repeat 11 the same thing over and over again, so when I 12 made a round and I saw every officer, I would 13 say the same thing over and over. You know, 14 sometimes people miss conference calls. I was 15 in the bathroom; I was doing this. So, this is 16 pertinent information. So face-to-face and 17 conference calls. 18 : Okay. If there was any 19 instructions or guidance from upper management, 20 how would they give it to you? How would they 21 pass it on to you? 22 : They would pass it on to me 23 as an officer or as a 9 lieutenant? 24 : Let's do both since you can 25 speak about both. EFTA00058554 34 1 • 2 3 get it? 4 : Okay. : As an officer, how would you : As an officer, they would 5 always tell the captain who would then tell the 6 operations lieutenant and then inform the 7 officers. If the officers needed to know. I 8 mean as an officer, we're called line staff, we 9 didn't always know. We didn't' need to know 10 the gist of everything. So like say for 11 instance that night we had a high-profile 12 inmate coming in. We would find out when we're 13 doing our round or we're working that unit. 14 Like oh, you're the one that was on the news. 15 Okay. So we didn't know everything that was 16 going on. 17 : Okay. And that's as an 18 officer. What about as a lieutenant? 19 : Being a 9 I mean if you 20 happen to be in the office at the time that the 21 captain was telling operations, then you'll get 22 wind of it. If not, then if I was walking 23 around or out and about and I would see the 24 operations, and he or she will call me and say 25 I've got some information to tell you. Come on EFTA00058555 35 1 down here. The captain just told me X, Y, and 2 Z. So we're going to do Z, Y, and Z tonight. 3 : Okay. 4 So is it basically the 5 captain tells the ops lieutenant, the ops 6 lieutenant, disseminates to everybody else? 7 : Yes. 8 : Alright. So it's not 9 like the captain is responsible for telling 10 everyone else. 11 : No. 12 : The ops lieutenant really 13 is. 14 : That is correct. 15 : Okay. 16 : I mean the captain 17 communicates with staff as well, but you know 18 the chain of -- 19 : Command. 20 -- command is, inform an 21 operations lieutenant. 22 : Okay. And then it's 23 really the operations lieutenant's 24 : Yes. 25 : -- position. Okay. EFTA00058556 36 1 : So what if it was a different 2 shift? Something got passed down to the 3 operations lieutenant in the morning from the 4 captain and now it's coming up on evening 5 shift. How does that get passed down? Because 6 what if the captain doesn't get a chance to 7 meet with the operations lieutenant that works 8 the evening shift? 9 : So. 10 : Who pass -? 11 : You're saying that like at 12 8:00 in the morning. 13 : Lets say at 8:00 in the 14 morning there's an order or guidance that comes 15 down 16 : Okay. 17 : -- to the operations 18 lieutenant. 19 : Yep. 20 : And now that needs to be 21 spread out to the evening shift and the night 22 watch. Right? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Well let's talk about 25 specifics. So if you got right here you're EFTA00058557 37 1 2 3 4 looking at August 9th. : Mm-hmm. : And you've got who I'm assuming -. 5 -: 6 -: 7 : Sorry, , who would 8 be here from - it looks like 8:00 to 4:00 p.m. 9 : He was on 07:00 to 3:00. 10 : 07 to 3:00 p.m. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : So he's on duty and right 13 there he's got Who's the ops lieutenant 14 there. That's the captain. Who -? 15 : Ops lieutenant is 16 : So is, so what he's 17 asking is if there's no overlap with 18 since he starts at 4:00. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : How does the information 21 get to 22 : So would be responsible 23 to let know everything that has 24 happened and what needs to be done. 25 : Alright. And is that EFTA00058558 38 1 every day? Is it if is - or - what am I 2 saying? 3 -• 4 . If 5 Sorry, I'm reading this upside down. 6 : That's Okay. 7 : Is always gone by 8 3 or does he ever have overlap with the 4:00 9 ops lieutenant. 10 : I mean people stay you know 11 when they need to whether it's paperwork or 12 whatever. But I've never tracked a captain's 13 body. 14 : Sure. 15 : You know. 16 : So your understanding 17 though is pretty much is, is would be 18 like his primary. 19 : Oh yes. 20 : And then he understands. 21 And then ' role, and he understands it, 22 would be to relay whatever information needed 23 to 24 25 : Yes. Yes. : Okay. EFTA00058559 39 1 2 3 4 : Yes. : And then role would be to bring that down to whoever is working in his shift. 5 : Yes. 6 : During his shift. 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Let's go through. Let 9 me get it. Do you recall being investigated by 10 the agents in regard to the Jeffrey Epstein 11 death? 12 : Not being investigated. 13 Being interviewed. 14 : Interviewed. Sorry. 15 : Yes. 16 : Interviewed. 17 : Yes. 18 : In regard to the Jeffrey 19 Epstein death. 20 : Yes. 21 : In 2019. 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. What I have is a 24 summary of their interview with you. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058560 40 1 • 2 states. 3 : I'm going to read what it : Okay. 4 : Please let me know if it's 5 accurate and if there's any questions. 6 : Okay. Yep. 7 -: started working for 8 the BOP i at Allenwood. 9 transferred to MCC i is 10 a Senior Officer Specialist but also serves as 11 a lieutenant. This usually happens when 12 is working overtime and is in the capacity of 13 her acting activities lieutenant. 14 stated that in order to do a round, an officer 15 has to physically go inside the area that is 16 occupied by the inmates. As an activities 17 lieutenant, makes a round through the 18 Special Housing Unit and asks officers in the 19 SHU if things are good. She's usually called 20 numerous times to the SHU for certain issues 21 like when an inmate complains that he hasn't 22 received something, III., property. 23 then takes note of the issue and advises the 24 captain. 25 : I don't know about advising EFTA00058561 41 1 2 3 4 the captain. I mean the captain ain't there. So it's things that we handle at that specific time. We can't wait for the captain. : So who would you advise? 5 : Me being a 9, I would advise 6 operations and being that I am a Senior 7 Specialist, sometimes I can take the initiative 8 and rectify the situation. 9 : Okay. 10 : On the date of August 9th 11 -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- if there wasn't any 14 issues, who would you have advised? 15 • • 16 • 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. As an Activities 19 Lieutenant, sees a sampling of tiers at 20 MCC during her shift. 21 : Sample of tears? 22 : A sampling of tiers. 23 : Oh tiers, I'm sorry. 24 : Sampling of tiers. 25 : Sampling of tiers. Sorry. EFTA00058562 42 1 : Sorry. 2 : Go ahead. Sorry. 3 uses her PIV card at a 4 computer terminal to log rounds. 5 6 7 different log. 8 Yes. Each unit at MCC has a Each unit at MCC has a 9 different log. I don't' understand what that 10 means. 11 : I guess what they're 12 probably trying to say is if there's different 13 units, do they log their own counts and rounds. 14 : Yes. Officers are 15 responsible. They have their own PIV card 16 where they log in their own log information. 17 Yes. 18 : When you do rounds 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : When you do rounds as a 21 lieutenant -- 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : Do you keep track of it? The 24 rounds that you do. 25 : We log them. So -. EFTA00058563 43 1 : Is it different for each 2 unit? 3 : Oh yes. 4 : Okay. I think that's what 5 : Yes. 6 : And also you've got to 7 make sure you're talking about -. When you 8 were talking about a lieutenant doing counts 9 and rounds, are you talking about - or rounds I 10 should say -. You're typically talking about 11 doing rounds with your staff as opposed to with 12 the inmates. Correct? 13 : Well when you're making 14 rounds, it's for -. Because I am a person that 15 works in the corrections system. I mean staff 16 wellbeing is very important to me. 17 : Sure. 18 : You know. Of course we 19 supervise inmates, but if I'm walking on a unit 20 and I need to know where that staff member is. 21 Once I get that staff member, and I get eyes on 22 that staff member, then we do whatever we need 23 to do. 24 : So point being is if I'm 25 asking a lieutenant about conducting rounds and EFTA00058564 44 1 I'm asking a CO about conducting rounds, for a 2 lieutenant a round would pretty much you're 3 checking in with your round is with the COs. 4 The Officers. Whereas the officers rounds are 5 with the inmates. 6 : No. 7 : Oh that's not? 8 : No-no. So lieutenant's 9 rounds are staff and inmates. 10 : Okay. 11 : Now officers rounds is just 12 inmates. So like for example, we have to make 13 rounds on outside patrol. There's no inmates 14 out there. But we still have to leave the 15 building, see the OP1 officer, and then walk 16 around the building, make sure nothing is being 17 tampered with and come back inside. So our 18 rounds consist of finding security rounds as 19 well. You know we're tugging on doors and 20 making sure the recreation is secured -- 21 : Okay. 22 and stuff like that. So. 23 -: works as an SOS - 24 Senior Officer Specialist - during her normal 25 shift, which is usually the day watch, 8:00 EFTA00058565 45 1 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. If works overtime, 2 she acts as activities lieutenant from 4:00 3 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. has worked as a 4 corrections officer in the SHU usually in 5 overtime and on evening watch. During her 6 shifts in the SHU, has responsibilities 7 pertaining to the inmates such as phone calls, 8 showers, and the library. The 30-minute rounds 9 are recorded in TruScope and on paper logs. 10 stated that she has not worked with 11 anyone who didn't' do the rounds. 12 participates in the 10 a.m. count on the 13 weekends, but during the week, a count is not 14 done during her regular shift of 8:00 a.m. to 15 4:00 p.m. During the week, leaves 16 before 10:00 p.m. count is conducted. During a 17 count, all inmates have to be seen. The 18 inmates are counted by one officer, then 19 another officer. 20 : Double count. 21 : Double count. 22 : Two step. 23 : If there are only two 24 officers working during the count, one officer 25 will count the inmates, then the officers will EFTA00058566 46 1 switch, and the other officer will count the 2 inmates. The officers are to only count 3 inmates that are physically in their unit. 4 : We count inmates everywhere. 5 Like they may be inmates in food service 6 working. We have to still count them. They're 7 considered out-count, but we still have to 8 count them. So we count anywhere inmates are. 9 : So point being if there 10 were people in the SHU but then one or two of 11 them were outside the SHU at the moment, you 12 still have to account for them. 13 : Yes. 14 : Because they're on your 15 roster. 16 : Because they're in the 17 building. 18 : Right. 19 : Because they're an inmate. 20 They have to be counted for regardless. 21 : Okay. And how do you do 22 that? Do you still write them on the slip? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Just the number - total 25 number? EFTA00058567 47 1 : No. So we have a -. 2 : Or do you have to note 3 that they're out? 4 : Yeah. So we have a - first 5 we have to put them on the out count, which is 6 So like say for instance we have on inmate 7 that's out to law library. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : We will call control and say 10 hey we got an inmate out to law library. 11 Alright. Put them on the out count as law 12 library. So we'll put them on the out count. 13 So when that officer counts, I've got one in 14 law library. So. 15 : How is it documented on 16 the slip? 17 : Still documented. Yes. It's 18 still documented on the count slip. It's still 19 part of the official counts. 20 : And is there a note made 21 though that anyone was outside of the unit? 22 : No. 23 : Or just the total number? 24 Nope. There's not note made 25 because we do out counts as a common thing. EFTA00058568 48 1 : Okay. 2 : Out count. 3 : I want to show you a 4 document. It's a Bureau of Prisons count 5 sheet. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And this is dated August 9, 8 2019. Can you just tell me what time period 9 that's for? 10 Yep. Alright. So August 9, 11 2019. Tell you what? I'm sorry. 12 : What count was that for? 13 : This was the 4:00 p.m. count. 14 So this is the time that the count is cleared. 15 So when we clear counts, that means that all 16 these areas called in their count. All the 17 counts were good and it's now clear. And now 18 inmates can move again. 19 : And is there a counts slip in 20 there? In the documents? 21 : We have 30 days. We have 22 something in the control center that we call a 23 30-day file. And a count slips are usually in 24 the corner or here, stapled to this package 25 right here. EFTA00058569 49 1 2 going. 3 4 Yeah. 5 It's a small box? Keep Small little piece of paper. Keep flipping through it. 6 All the way to the back. 7 : Now these are out counts. 8 Out counts. Out counts. Out counts. Yep. 9 Okay. Yes. Yep. 10 : Are these -? 11 : But it' not like on a while 12 piece of paper. They're little -- 13 : Right. 14 : -- pieces of paper. 15 : If there was somebody that 16 was not in the unit. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Right? And that's the count 19 slip that they have to show. Would they just 20 write the number? Or how do they show? You 21 said you have to show an out count. Right? 22 : Yes. 23 : How would they show the out 24 count on that slip? 25 : So, for example, we got EFTA00058570 50 1 Let's use.... This is southern court. We have 2 inmates that go to court like during the day 3 because it's a pretrial institution. So, it 4 says FNYS. That's Southern District Court. So 5 up here it will say FNYS. There's three 6 inmates from 5 South that are still out that 7 are not physically in the building. So we have 8 to do an out count for them. 9 : And it's listed on the counts 10 slip as FNYS. 11 : Yes. So you've got -. 12 That's weird. FN, oh I'm sorry. FNYS. FNYS. 13 Oh there's one. I'm looking at food service. 14 That's on my way to discrepancy. Okay. FNYS. 15 One. There's one out. Same room counted and 16 the count slip would be right here. 17 : And what does that state? 18 : Hold on, let's see. That 19 states that there's one inmate by the name of 20 Clark that's in Southern Court from 11 South 21 Unit. So this is the Sentry document that 22 matches this document right here. 23 : Okay. Well here's the 24 question I have. If an inmate happened to be 25 moved to R&D. EFTA00058571 51 1 : What time? 2 : Let's just say during that 3 4:00 p.m. count. Right. 4 : Okay. 5 : Right before the 4:00 pm 6 count, if they moved to R&D. When the unit 7 does its count, do they record the inmate as 8 being in R&D or do they record it as still 9 being in the unit? 10 : They record the inmate being 11 out of the building. That's why it's an out 12 count. 13 : An out count. 14 : Yeah. 15 : And how would they record 16 that? It's just on the slip how do they say 17 it. 18 : Oh, it's just be 1. It would 19 just be the number. Like count 1. If I'm 20 answering your question. 21 22 23 question. 24 : So let's say there's 25 : Ask her a specific : Yeah. Let's just go. I'm 25 going to show you. EFTA00058572 52 1 2 3 Okay. This is the 10:00 p.m. count. Okay. 4 For August 9th, 19-. 5 : Yep. 6 : Can you tell me how many 7 people are in the SHU for the 8 : Yep. 9 : -- 10:00 p.m. count? 10 : 73. 70 inmates are 11 physically in special housing for the 10:00 12 count. 13 Is it, there's 73 inmates. 14 Right? 15 : Yes. 16 : And now I'm going to show 17 you. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : 12 pm. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : I mean 12 midnight. Sorry. 22 I apologize. 23 : Yes. 24 : That's on August 10th at 12 25 midnight. How many people are in the SHU? EFTA00058573 53 1 2 3 4 : : 72. 72. Yes. How many people in the RA? 5 What's RA by the way? 6 : RA is R&D. 7 : R&D. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Now if you take a look at 10 that slip -- 11 : Yep. 12 -- for the count slip for the 13 SHU for that time period. Can you tell me what 14 it says on the count slip? 15 : You're talking about August 16 10, right? 17 : August 10th. 18 : Okay. 19 : That's the count slip in the 20 back. 21 : Okay. 22 : I know you didn't work this. 23 : Oh yeah. 24 : I know I'm just taking a look 25 at it and I want to get clarification. EFTA00058574 54 1 : Yep. Now you want me to tell 2 you which count slips which one? 3 : The SHU. 4 : The SHU one says. Yep. It 5 says 73. 6 : Does that match with the 7 number on -? 8 : It does not. It does not 9 match. 10 : So let's say if they had an 11 inmate in R&D. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : What's the procedure? What 14 would -? Do they have to get eyes on the 15 inmate before they put that -- 16 : Yes. 17 : -- as part of the count? 18 : So if someone is in R&D and 19 it could have been a self-surrender. Or 20 usually one of the federal agencies will drop 21 off an inmate. That happens all the time. 22 Internal number two would now be pulled from 23 their post and told to post up in R&D to watch 24 that inmate. Because R&D is a secure area, so 25 a staff member has to be in there. There's EFTA00058575 55 1 like no back-and-forth. Like you're now pulled 2 from your post and you have to physically stay 3 in R&D to watch that inmate. So what they'll 4 do sometimes. I'm not saying that happened 5 this time, we'll do something where we do like 6 the lieutenant will say hey, because it's so 7 close to count, and the inmate is accounted 8 for, we'll kind of like ghost count him. Ghost 9 counting meaning the inmate is still physically 10 accounted for but we'll just put it on the 11 slip. Again, I'm not saying this happened 12 there. 13 : Okay. 14 : But we have a lot of inmate 15 movement at count times. Sometimes we'll 16 improvise with the documentation, but never 17 with accounting for inmates. 18 : Okay. I just wanted to -. 19 The point of clarification is to let's say if 20 the count was done and the count was wrong. 21 What's the next step? If they identified the 22 fact that whoever the COs are, they counted the 23 inmates -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- and it happened to be EFTA00058576 56 1 wrong. I'm not saying that happened here. 2 : Yeah-yeah. 3 : If it was wrong -- 4 : Yep. 5 and the lieutenant whoever 6 it was on shift identifies it as wrong, what's 7 the next step? 8 : So when you call in one bad 9 count, you have to go recount again. Right? 10 If you call in two bad counts, the lieutenant 11 authorizes a bed book count. That's, we have 12 like picture cards with like a long book with 13 the inmate's picture in it, reg number, his bed 14 assignment. We now have to recount the inmates 15 over again, but we're physically making sure 16 that like you're Smith, you're Jones, you're 17 where you're supposed to be. 18 : Okay. 19 : So we do bed book counts. 20 When you have to bad counts. 21 : So one bad count, the COs in 22 the unit have to redo the count. 23 : Yes. 24 : Do the lieutenants have to go 25 into the unit to do the counts to assist? EFTA00058577 57 1 2 3 else on that? 4 No. No. Okay. Do you have anything No. So if someone - if 5 they call in a count and for instance in this 6 instance, and they said hey we've got 72 7 present, one out. And they wrote 73 on the 8 count slip. What would happen then? 9 : What happens with the staff? 10 : So would you write 72 or 11 73 on this? 12 : Yeah. 13 : Or would the lieutenant? 14 So if the slip in this instance says what, 73 15 right? 16 : Yeah. The slip says 73. 17 : And if when they called 18 it in and told the ops lieutenant we've got 73 19 here but one of them is not in the unit. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Is that considered a bad 22 count? Or what is that considered? 23 : It's not considered a bad 24 count. It's just considered something that we 25 improvise with and we have inmates coming in EFTA00058578 58 1 after hours as like self-surrenders and -- 2 : Uh-huh. 3 : -- when the DEA, the FBI, 4 they drop off inmates at that time. 5 : So what should have been 6 written on these? Should have it said 72 on 7 that outside sheet? Or should it have said 73 8 and vice versa? What should have the counts 9 slip said - 73 or 72? 10 : Well inmates that come in 11 that late, we call them safekeeps and they're 12 always going to go to SHU regardless. Always. 13 Because they're coming in late and they haven't 14 been medically assessed. We do the initial 15 intake, but it's not a full-on intake like 16 during day watch hours. So all inmates coming 17 in at that time always go to Special Housing 18 Unit. So again, I'm not saying that happened 19 that time, but there have been situations when 20 inmates are coming in and 21 : And so what I'm saying in 22 this specific instance -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- if when they spoke to 25 the ops lieutenant and they said hey, we got EFTA00058579 59 1 72, but we wrote 73 on the count slip because 2 one's not in here but he's still on our books. 3 : Yeah. So the lieutenant can 4 make a decision. 5 : So is this sheet - this 6 top sheet - should that have said 72 or 73? Or 7 that would be the lieutenant's decision? 8 : That would be the 9 lieutenant's decision because this inmate is 10 physically in R&D. 11 : Okay. 12 : So they can combine those. 13 : If that were the case, if 14 when that ops lieutenant spoke to the people 15 16 17 the SHU. 18 Mm-hmm. : -- that were assigned to : Mm-hmm. 19 : Would it be normal for 20 that ops lieutenant to say just do the count 21 again? 22 : No. Because the ops 23 lieutenant was - knows that that inmate is in 24 off the streets. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058580 60 1 2 know. 3 So everybody is now in the : So would it be suspicious 4 if that ops lieutenant said hey they called 5 this in and they told me this and I had them do 6 it again? 7 : No. 8 : That's also not -? 9 : Happens all the time. No. 10 Happens all the time. 11 • 12 asking? 13 • : You follow what I'm Yeah. 14 : It's a pretrial institution 15 and we process inmates all times of the night. 16 : So it's not a big deal if 17 the ops lieutenant was just like you know what 18 just do it again? 19 : To recount again? 20 : Yeah. 21 : But all -. 22 : So I'll clarify. Does a -? 23 : I'm just trying to see why 24 would they say count again 25 : That's what we're trying EFTA00058581 61 1 to figure out. 2 3 accounted for. : -- if the inmates are 4 : If the story is - and 5 this would be the story -- 6 : Yeah. 7 : This is SHU calling in 8 our count. 73 is on the slip. One is actually 9 not in here. 10 Yep. 11 : And that lieutenant says 12 I want to make sure that we've got eyes on that 13 other body. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : Do the count again while 16 I ensure that we have eyes on that body. Does 17 that make sense? 18 : It makes sense, but it's 19 working extra hard for no reason. 20 : Right. 21 : Because when these inmates 22 come in at this time and they're placed in R&D, 23 like the operations is the highest-ranking 24 officer on. So we don't -. Like we get one 25 new in that like 3 in the morning, it's not the EFTA00058582 62 1 lieutenant's job to call the captain and say 2 hey we got more new. Because it's practice. 3 So. 4 : Would that change if this 5 person wasn't new? It was rather an inmate 6 that was in the SHU that just got moved out to 7 R&D for whatever reason. 8 : I mean we've had emergency 9 trips go out at weird times, but an inmate 10 doesn't -- 11 : Yeah, this is -- 12 -- he goes to R&D to put the 13 restraints on. Like if medical is not there, 14 you know, we do CPR, we make tourniquets, we do 15 a whole lot of things. 16 : And just for the record, 17 what is R&A and R&D? What do they stand for? 18 : R&D is just the out count. 19 : I mean what does it - is 20 it short for something or is it just letters? 21 : It's just letters. 22 : Okay. 23 : Yeah. 24 : So it's not like how R&D 25 would be research and development. EFTA00058583 63 1 2 3 : No. No-no-no-no. : It's nothing like that. : Just like the units is just 4 the letter. It's not like Bravo, Charlie. 5 It's just literally B-A, C-A. 6 : Okay. 7 : So let me show you something. 8 Can you look at the 4:00 p.m. count? 9 : Yeah. 10 : What's the count at the SHU? 11 : 75. Now they have one in 12 attorney conference at the 4:00 p.m. count. 13 But in special housing unit they counted 75 14 inmates. 15 : Okay. What's the 10:00 p.m. 16 count? 17 : 10:00 p.m. count is 73. 18 : Anybody in attorney 19 conference? 20 : No. This is the 10:00 p.m. 21 Nobody's in attorney conference at this time. 22 : Okay. So now, the question 23 is this. Do you recall there being an incident 24 that night? So if you notice, the count went 25 down between the 4 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. You EFTA00058584 64 1 were on shift. Did you recall of any inmates 2 threatening anything or saying anything? Any 3 reason why they would have been removed from 4 the SHU that night? 5 : Not that I can remember. No. 6 : Did you hear movement -? 7 : Removed from the SHU to go 8 where? 9 : Suicide watch. Did any 10 inmates come - threaten to commit suicide that 11 night? 12 : I don't remember. 13 : Okay. 14 : To be honest with you. I 15 don't remember that specifically. 16 : If I said two inmates did 17 threaten and they did get moved out, can you 18 see on the 10:00 p.m. count of them being moved 19 to the suicide watch? 20 : That would be 21 : Where would they be accounted 22 for? 23 : That would be three inmates. 24 That would now be three inmates leaving. So 25 this is basically saying that three inmates -. EFTA00058585 65 1 : Hold on one second. 2 : Yeah-yeah. Hello. 3 UNKNOWN MALE: Am I disturbing you? 4 : Yeah. You need to go to the 5 Wellness Center? 6 UNKNOWN MALE: I was going to use the 7 restroom, but if you've got -. 8 : Sorry. 9 UNKNOWN MALE: It's okay. 10 : Okay. 11 : So if there was two inmates 12 moved, would it show at the 10:00 p.m. count 13 where they were moved? 14 : No, that's in Sentry. So the 15 count slips and this package doesn't have 16 movement of inmates. We run something that we 17 call Oh, I'm sorry. 18 : What unit would they show up 19 at? If they're on suicide watch, what unit are 20 they in? 21 : They would be H-A. 22 : How many inmates do you see? 23 : Four. 24 : How many inmates do you see 25 at the 4:00 p.m. count? EFTA00058586 66 1 : Two. 2 : So between 4:00 p.m. and 3 10:00 p.m. two inmates were moved over. You 4 don't know the facts -- 5 : Yeah. 6 -- but let's say if they did 7 threaten to commit suicide, two would have 8 moved over. Right? Now it's four at 10:00 9 p.m. 10 : Yes, but because these 11 numbers are different doesn't mean that those 12 went there. We need in between paperwork to 13 show that the SHU inmates were the ones that 14 went to suicide watch. 15 : Okay. That's based on 16 investigation it shows that someone did. 17 : Gotha. 18 : Two people did. 19 : Gotcha. 20 : What I'm trying to get at is 21 -- 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 -- if you notice, that means 24 technically, at 10:00 p.m. they were still 25 saying there's 73 inmates. Right? EFTA00058587 67 1 : Yeah. 2 : So would that mean that one 3 person was already in R&D? Because remember, 4 at midnight they're saying there's a person in 5 R&D. 6 : That is correct. 7 : So -- 8 : According to this. 9 somewhere between the 10 10:00 p.m. count Or even the 10:00 p.m. 11 count, they might have possibly called the SHU 12 the lieutenant and clarified with the 13 lieutenant to get permission to account for the 14 R&D person. But why would an inmate that's 15 inside the SHU still be in R&D that late at 16 night? 17 : Why would an inmate in 18 general -- 19 : In general. 20 : -- be in R&D at that time? 21 22 23 from? 24 : Yeah. : But where would he be coming : Or are you asking 25 specifically if it was at 73 at 10 p.m. and EFTA00058588 68 1 then all of a sudden it's 72 at midnight. Were 2 they changed -? Could it have changed between 3 those two hours? 4 : Sorry. That's a 5 clarification. 6 : Okay. 7 : Could that have happened 8 between 10 p.m. and midnight? 9 : What had happened? I'm 10 sorry. Say it one more time. 11 : That inmate - that from 73 it 12 became 72 because one inmate got moved to R&D. 13 : Would inmates have been 14 moved after 10 p.m. to R&D? 15 : I don't never remember that 16 happening. Like -. 17 : Would that be very 18 unusual? 19 : To go to R&D? 20 : Right. 21 : Unless it was - he was going 22 out on a trip. Or like we get an agents that 23 come and they do takeout orders and they pull 24 the inmates to go rat on other inmates. We 25 call it takeout orders. But -. EFTA00058589 69 1 : So I guess what he's 2 trying to get at -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- is that all of a 5 sudden at midnight, this changed to 72. But at 6 10:00 p.m. it said 73. And they're claiming 7 that one individual actually was found in R&D. 8 Does it sound suspicious that that actually 9 happened? Or it probably happened earlier in 10 the day and they were just not doing their 11 counts? 12 : There's just no way to tell 13 because it's -. 14 : But like you said, it 15 would be very rare that between 10:00 p.m. and 16 midnight, someone would be moved to R&D. 17 : An inmate would be going to 18 R&D for just going to R&D? 19 : Right. 20 : Like there's nothing in R&D 21 unless we have a bus coming in. And then R&D 22 staff are staying back late. But just to go 23 SHU to R&D. Now when we have emergency trips 24 going out -- 25 : Yep. EFTA00058590 70 1 : -- then that's when we gather 2 all the restraints and we put the restraints on 3 the inmate. But. I don't know. 4 : Is R&D housed at all times? 5 : No. 6 : Okay. There's someone 7 assigned if something happens. 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. Any other questions? 10 : Nope. 11 : Alright. So I'm going to go 12 back to your entry notes. 13 : Yes. 14 : In the control center, an 15 employee gets information from the person that 16 he or she relieves. While in the control 17 center, one has various responsibilities such 18 as a fire security check, equipment, and key 19 checks and watching the cameras. The person 20 that is designated as Control 2 is responsible 21 for preparing the paperwork for the count. On 22 August 9, 2019, works in the capacity of 23 lieutenant from 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. During 24 this time, stopped by the SHU. She 25 recalled that regular activities and operations EFTA00058591 71 1 were occurring at the time of her visit. 2 fed inmates in G Tier and in 10 South - 3 the high security unit. recalled seeing 4 Jeffrey Epstein earlier on August 9th and 5 around 9:00 a.m. at attorney conference area. 6 Epstein was there with three or four attorneys 7 who were in and out of the facility. 8 recalled that there being two females and one 9 male. At one point, Epstein had to get an 10 officer's attention to use the restroom. 11 was not in the SHU when Epstein came 12 back from attorney conference. Usually Epstein 13 would be cuffed to go back to the SHU from 14 attorney conference around 7:20 p.m. to 8:00 15 p.m. doesn't remember anyone talking 16 about a phone call that Epstein made on August 17 9th. She also is not aware of how either of 18 Epstein's celimates were selected. only 19 heard things in passing regarding Epstein's 20 alleged suicide attempt in July. does 21 not know the particular procedures or 22 guidelines regarding an inmate who comes off 23 suicide watch. She stated that usually that 24 inmate is put with a cellmate but she does not 25 know if this is policy or just general EFTA00058592 72 1 practice. According to , as an SOS she 2 would not know if Epstein was supposed to have 3 a cellmate. A decision such as an inmate 4 needing a cellmate would be made at SHU 5 meetings and/or department head meetings. 6 does not know if Epstein had a cellmate 7 the day she was acting lieutenant. 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. We might come back on 10 certain of these things. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Your -. Did you know if 13 Epstein had a cellmate? 14 : I'm not sure. 15 : Were you aware of the July 16 23rd incident when he first started to commit 17 suicide? 18 : No. 19 : Okay. Did you respond to it 20 at all? 21 : No. 22 : Okay. Do you know if Epstein 23 was ever placed on suicide watch or psych 24 observation? 25 : I remember him being on the EFTA00058593 73 1 second floor. Psych ops and suicide is the 2 same area. So which one was he? I do not 3 know. 4 : Okay. 5 : But I do remember hearing 6 that Epstein is on suicide watch. 7 : When he came off of suicide 8 watch - well psych observation on July 30th, he 9 was brought back to the SHU. At that point, 10 did you receive any instructions in regard to 11 Epstein needing a cellmate? 12 : Well what day was this? 13 : July 30th um -. That's a 14 good question. 15 : July 30th. 16 : What day of the week you want 17 to know? 18 : Well to be honest with you, 19 the answer to that is no anyway, because I 20 don't recall receiving any specific 21 instructions on Epstein about where to put him. 22 I dealt with him mostly in attorney conference 23 because that was my post. 24 : Okay. 25 : So. I thought you were EFTA00058594 74 1 talking about August 9th. 2 : No this situation I'm talking 3 about is July 30th. 4 : I don't know. Yeah. 5 : Just to make sure. 6 : No. 7 : Did you receive any 8 instructions from Captain 9 : No. 10 : Do you recall receiving an 11 email from psych instructing that Epstein 12 needed a cellmate? 13 : No. 14 : I'm going to mention some 15 names - a list of names. Let me know if you 16 ever discussed with these people any 17 requirements. You already said you haven't. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So I'm just going to go 20 individually. Just say yes or no if they ever 21 discussed about Epstein's requirement for a 22 cellmate. 23 : Got it. 24 : And the purpose of that 25 is just to try to spark your recollection when EFTA00058595 75 1 you're thinking of that person. So say like 2 God, did I actually discuss 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : -- Epstein with that 5 person? 6 : Okay. 7 -: • 8 : No. 9 -: • 10 : No. 11 -: 12 13 : No. 14 -: 15 : No. 16 -: 17 : No. 18 -: 19 : No. 20 -: 21 : No. 22 -: 23 : No. 24 : Same thing. Next is going to 25 be just a list of COs. EFTA00058596 76 1 2 3 4 : Mm-hmm. : Possibly you had any interactions in regard to Epstein requirements. If they ever passed on or said that Epstein 5 needed certain, like a cellmate - if they ever 6 talked to you about it. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 • • 9 : No. 10 • 11 : No. 12 : If I mispronounce their names 13 -. 14 : No, it's okay. Just say the 15 last name. I know last names. 16 17 : No. 18 : Michael Thomas. 19 : No. 20 : Nova Toel. Tova Noel. 21 : No. 22 • 23 : No. 24 • 25 : No. EFTA00058597 77 1 2 . No. 3 : Okay. So you were never 4 aware that Epstein had a cellmate requirement. 5 Right? 6 : That is correct. 7 : You were not aware of who his 8 roommate - cellmate was either. 9 : That is correct. Never 10 aware. 11 : Did you hear -? Eventually 12 did you end up hearing about the fact that his 13 cellmate was removed? 14 : Nope. I don't remember that. 15 : If a regular inmate is 16 mandated to have a cellmate. And the cellmate 17 is removed for whatever reason. Who is 18 responsible to have another cellmate assigned 19 to that inmate? 20 : The captain is over special 21 housing unit. 22 : So the captain is 23 responsible? If there was a requirement in 24 terms of Epstein requiring a cellmate, who 25 should those instructions have come from? EFTA00058598 78 1 : Psychology. For what reason 2 though? Like just suicidal reasons 3 specifically or -? 4 : Suicide. Let's say the 5 decision was made because he was on suicide 6 watch, then he was in psych observation, and 7 then psychology makes a decision that hey, 8 listen, this inmate cannot be housed by 9 himself. 10 : Yep. 11 : If that instruction had to 12 come down to the lieutenant and even the COs, 13 how - what was the chain of command? How 14 should those instructions come around? 15 : Okay. So those things happen 16 when they have regular department head 17 meetings. But then they also have emergency 18 meetings. So in a situation like that, they 19 would have a last-minute emergency meeting. 20 They'll come up with whatever plan. It's 21 medical. It's all department heads. It's unit 22 team, it's medical, it's psychology, it's the 23 captain. Lieutenants don't sit in department 24 head meetings. So whatever determination they 25 make, the captain will inform the lieutenants. EFTA00058599 79 1 So like line staff, we don't really need to 2 know who needs a cellie and who doesn't because 3 we don't - it's not our responsibility to walk 4 around and say hey you need a cellmate. We 5 just you know we count for inmates, do our 6 rounds, do our shakedowns, and go home in one 7 piece. 8 : Being the fact that you did 9 overtime in the SHU. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : A requirement like that - do 12 you think they should have informed you about 13 that? 14 : Absolutely. 15 : Okay. 16 : So I do remember them putting 17 a stickie note on the computer. You know 18 everyone looks at the computer. Saying do 19 rounds on Epstein. That's just something that 20 as officers we do to say hey, reminder. Make 21 sure you check on this inmate. So like say if 22 I'm working a housing unit and an inmate got 23 news that his mother died. And I'm on the 24 housing unit. And this happened on my shift. 25 And I'll put a little stickie note and say hey EFTA00058600 80 1 keep eyes on inmatell'Illipecause he got a 2 phone call, he got an email, that his mom 3 passed away. You know keep an eye on him. 4 I'll write a little sticky note. It's like 5 something that we do as line staff. So like 6 say when you're relieving me and because you'll 7 forget sometimes to pass on pertinent 8 information. So we did that as something that 9 we made up to do to remind ourselves like hey, 10 what's this sticky note for? Oh yeah. I 11 remember telling me thatill'Illmother 12 died. Just keep an eye on him. 13 : So there was a note that 14 said. 15 : There was a note that we - 16 when I say we I mean line staff. There was a 17 note that somebody created as a reminder for us 18 to do it. You understand what I'm trying to 19 say? 20 : Okay. 21 : Like not like an email 22 printed out. It's like a little sticky note. 23 Something that we did. 24 : Which computer? 25 : There's two computers in SHU. EFTA00058601 81 1 I'm not sure which one it was. 2 : Okay. So one of them had a 3 little sticky note. 4 : One of them had a little 5 sticky note. Now that's what I heard. 6 : You never seen it? 7 : I've never seen the note. 8 But I've heard people who say we even had a 9 sticky note there. You know something along 10 the lines of that. But I can see that 11 happening because I used to do little sticky 12 notes as reminders to myself. 13 14 15 Let's just say Mm-hmm. : -- the instructions did come 16 down from psych and from . And 17 he instructed his lieutenants and then the 18 staff knew. You know, you were not aware of it 19 according to -. 20 : That is correct. 21 : So you would not know if they 22 knew either. 23 24 If it was the line staff. Line staff. 25 : Yes. EFTA00058602 82 1 : Let's say the line staff was 2 aware of that requirement. 3 : Yep. 4 : And his cellmate was Efren 5 Reyes. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : And Efren Reyes was removed 8 from the SHU at - between 7:00 and 8:00 a.m. 9 And between 1:00 and 2:00 I think the MCC was 10 notified that he's not coming back. 11 : Okay. 12 : Can you look at the SHU 13 roster and let me know whose responsibility it 14 would have been - from the bottom up - to 15 notify. 16 : On the 9th or the 10th? 17 : 9th. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because -. 20 : Alright. 21 : Well not necessarily the 22 SHU roster. Whose responsibility would it have 23 been in the institution. Like who would have 24 been notified first? Who would have made the 25 notifications? EFTA00058603 83 1 : Alright. So if Epstein's 2 cellie left at 1:00 or 2:00, that's overlap. 3 Right. With lieutenants. So -. 4 : He left supposedly at - he 5 was removed from the MCC supposedly -. 6 : Around 1:30-ish let's 7 say. 8 : Okay. 9 : From the books. Yeah. 10 : So yeah. So he leaves 11 and then they think he's going to court but 12 then he's released -- 13 : Gotcha. 14 : -- around 1:30. 15 Yep. So -. 16 : Who would have found out 17 first and how should it have gone? 18 : Um, R&D staff. Inmates 19 depart and come in the same way. So receiving 20 and discharging and control are the first ones 21 to know. 22 : And does it show on this 23 as you -- 24 : No. 25 : -- determine this who is EFTA00058604 84 1 working those positions? 2 : No. So it's a non-custody 3 post. So receiving and discharging is not 4 here. So R&D supervisor should have notified 5 operations and said hey Epstein's cellie left. 6 : Who would have been in 7 operations at that point? 8 : Uh, it would have been 9 is still on. He leaves at 4:00. So if 10 you're asking me the time frames. Right? 11 Yeah. Operations lieutenant. 12 : If was aware of the 13 requirement from 14 15 16 : Mm-hmm. : What should have done? : He should have got with 17 psychology and made sure. Before everyone left 18 for the day they should have made sure that 19 Epstein had another cellmate. 20 : How soon should a cellmate 21 have been assigned if it was required? 22 : Well I mean it just really 23 depends because if the situation is a unique 24 situation and they have to, you know -. 25 : Well this specific EFTA00058605 85 1 situation. 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : Let's think about it. So 4 if everyone is told Epstein needs a cellmate at 5 all times. is informed. The cellmate 6 left. What should have happened? 7 : He should have got a cellie 8 before every department head left. 9 : Okay. So should have he 10 notified - should have he gone straight to -- 11 : Somebody has to tell -. 12 : -- psychology or should 13 have he told the captain first? Or how -? 14 : Well somebody has to. So 15 like if the lieutenant is on. Right. The 16 lieutenant is here. They have their office. 17 Everyone has their own offices. So if an 18 inmate is - he leaves out of R&D and the 19 marshals or whoever calls R&D and say hey this 20 inmate had got released from court. We take 21 him off the count. R&D should be notifying 22 their supervisor who in turn would be notifying 23 psychology and the captain. And then that's 24 when it comes down. You understand what I'm 25 trying to say? EFTA00058606 86 1 : Okay. 2 : So me being a line staff, my 3 immediate supervisor is always operations. 4 Like I don't call R&D and say hey I got an 5 inmate that's saying he got court. What's 6 going on? My line of defense is operations. 7 So everyone has a supervisor. So they should 8 have been going to their supervisor - R&D - 9 because you still have line staff in R&D. They 10 have a supervisor. And that's when the 11 supervisor needs to reach out to whoever they 12 need to reach out to. And they -. Well the 13 R&D supervisor notifies psychology and the 14 captain. 15 : And they would have been - 16 would they have been responsible to making sure 17 that Epstein was assigned a cellmate? 18 : Absolutely. 19 : Okay. 20 : Yeah. 21 : Now -. 22 : Go ahead. 23 : Now if sits on the 24 information and doesn't do anything with it. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058607 87 1 : He doesn't tell 2 He doesn't tell the captain. He doesn't tell 3 psychology. Is there any way that that 4 information could have gotten back up to 5 ? So should have the people in the SHU 6 and for the next people that are in the SHU. 7 Epstein -. They know there is a sticky note on 8 the computer. Epstein needs a cellmate. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : Should have they notified 11 you? Should have they said hey Epstein is in 12 there. He doesn't have a cellmate. And then 13 you would have therefore notified 14 Should have that happened? 15 : No. No. Because if 16 is coming on late, and no disrespect, but no 17 one is home thinking about inmates. 18 : Sure. 19 : And if they need a cellie or 20 not. So when people come in, we have many 21 high-profile inmates. No one comes in saying 22 okay, what's going on with El Chapo today? 23 What's going on with Epstein? Like it is not 24 that deep. So if you're coming in and you're 25 speaking with operations. You know, you're EFTA00058608 88 1 just listening to pertinent information. 2 You're asking questions. Was it quiet today? 3 Any fights? Any use of force? And if you say 4 no, is a lieutenant going to say, oh is Epstein 5 okay? Again, no disrespect to anybody, but no 6 one is inquiring about a specific inmate when 7 you're staring your shift. 8 : No. And I'm not asking 9 if -- 10 Yeah. 11 • would be 12 inquiring. I'm saying -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- at this point if the 15 people in the SHU -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- if they have a sticky 18 note saying -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- Epstein is supposed to 21 have a cellmate. 22 : No-no-no. I didn't say that. 23 I said the sticky notes says conduct rounds on 24 Epstein. 25 : Okay. But if they're EFTA00058609 89 1 aware that Epstein is supposed to have a 2 cellmate. Should they then each time somebody 3 else 4 : No. 5 : -- comes on should they 6 still make that notification? No? 7 : No because that's not their 8 responsibility. 9 : So if the information 10 dies with , it just dies? What happens? 11 : It's not the line staff 12 responsibility to know who needs a cellmate or 13 who doesn't. 14 : So in this case 15 specifically, if has the information and 16 he didn't do anything with it. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Is there anything -? 19 : There's no way for line staff 20 to know. 21 : So in this specific 22 instance basically we'd have to wait until the 23 next day? 24 : If operations don't tell line 25 staff, then they just don't know. EFTA00058610 90 1 2 3 4 : What if all the lieutenants already knew though? So I guess the difference in this case is that -- : Mm-hmm. 5 : -- you're an acting 6 lieutenant. Would have you been the only 7 lieutenant on the next shift that would have 8 known? And if you didn't know, then there 9 would be no way for you to -. 10 11 day. : So if I knew that during the 12 13 is -- : No. So what I'm saying 14 15 16 information. : Mm-hmm. knows the 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 19 with it. : He doesn't do anything 20 : Okay. 21 : Now who would be the next 22 person. As you said, 23 : Yes. 24 : -- wouldn't have asked 25 about him because -. EFTA00058611 91 1 : Yeah, you don't come in just 2 asking about inmates. 3 : Exactly. 4 : Yeah. 5 : So my point being is 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- were there any other 8 lieutenants after left that could have 9 found that out. Or was it just you? 10 : It was just me. 11 : Okay. 12 : It was just me. 13 : And you didn't actually 14 even know he was supposed to have a cellmate. 15 : That is correct. 16 : And you're saying that 17 the COs - the officers that are in the SHU -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- they didn't tell you. 20 : That is correct. 21 : And it wouldn't be their 22 responsibility to tell you if they knew he was 23 required to have one? 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. So that's the EFTA00058612 92 1 confusing part to me is why wouldn't they be 2 required to tell you that? If they knew he had 3 a cellmate, why wouldn't they say hey 4 lieutenant, hey LT. Epstein is supposed to 5 have a cellmate. 6 : But that's specific. In my 7 opinion, that's pertinent information. So if 8 Epstein is in attorney conference. Right. And 9 shifts are overlapping. And he's there during 10 the count. And I'm making a round at let's say 11 5:00. And they're going oh Epstein needs a 12 cellie. That would be coming from higher-ups. 13 So coming on, 14 : But if kept the 15 information and has no idea that 16 Epstein doesn't have a cellie. How can that 17 information get back to that Epstein 18 doesn't have a cellie? 19 : But they would have had to 20 have been notified by any supervisor. Even if 21 the captain felt like calling them straight in 22 the SHU and saying hey, Epstein needs a cellie. 23 Like even if he wanted to jump the chain of 24 command. Like they still need to know. 25 : That's what I'm saying. EFTA00058613 93 1 : To tell us anything. 2 : That's my point. If they 3 knew. The people in the SHU. If they knew. 4 : Yeah. 5 : Let's say hey, they know 6 Epstein is supposed to have a cellmate. He 7 hasn't had a cellmate filled. You're now the 8 new lieutenant on. So maybe they told the old 9 lieutenant, the other lieutenant told 10 : Okay. 11 never ended up 12 doing anything with it. 13 : Okay. 14 : He still doesn't have a 15 cellmate. Should have the officers in the SHU 16 then - you're now the new lieutenant. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Hey just so you know, we 19 told the other lieutenant but now you're the 20 acting lieutenant, just know that 21 : Okay. 22 -- Epstein is supposed to 23 -- 24 : Okay. 25 : -- have a cellmate. EFTA00058614 94 1 Should have they told you that? 2 : If they knew, yeah. Sure. 3 : Okay. 4 : Absolutely. 5 : So if they knew they 6 should have told you. 7 : They should have told me 8 because that's considered pertinent 9 information. 10 : Right. 11 : And you always pass on. You 12 should be always passing on pertinent 13 information. 14 : So looking at that 15 roster. 16 : Yeah. Mm-hmm. 17 : Who was it that should 18 have told you -- 19 : The OIC. 20 : If the -. And who's that? 21 : The SHU Number 1. So the SHU 22 OIC, the SHU Number 1 is the officer in charge 23 of the special housing unit. 24 : No. I'm saying who on 25 that list is it. EFTA00058615 95 1 2 3 4 you? : • Oh. : Who should have informed 5 : And what time did 6 work until? 7 : 8:00 to 4:00. 8 : 8:00 to 4:00? Okay. 9 : Let me see if he didn't go on 10 to lunch. 11 : So let's say after 4:00 12 though I'm saying. 13 : Okay. 14 : Because was - I 15 mean was there until 4:00. Who after 16 4:00 p.m.? 17 : Oh. 18 : If nothing after -. 19 -: . He was the OIC 20 relief. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yep. 23 : And that's 24 1. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00058616 96 1 2 3 4 : Okay. So he's the person who should have informed you? : If he knew -- : If he knew. 5 : -- he should be telling me 6 all pertinent information. 7 : Okay. 8 : That is correct. 9 : So he's the person on 10 that shift should have informed you. 11 : Yes. 12 : Okay. Now let's say now 13 you're gone. Who are you relieved by? 14 : Um, no relief. 15 : Um because you were 16 activities lieutenant? 17 : Yeah. 18 : Who then relieves -? So 19 there's no activities lieutenant -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : -- but there's an ops 22 lieutenant. Right? 23 : Yes. 24 : So who is the ops 25 lieutenant? EFTA00058617 97 1 2 3 4 : I'm not sure who relieved . Because I leave two hours before -. Oh, I'm sorry. Um.... Oh, . She was morning watch lieutenant. 5 : Okay. 6 Yep. 7 : So 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- is until midnight. So 10 at some point, he should have told somebody. 11 If he knew, he should have told somebody. 12 : Yes. 13 : Alright. 14 : Yes. 15 : Now he leaves. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : And now it's just Noel 18 and Thomas in the SHU. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Should have they notified 21 anyone? 22 : If they knew? 23 : If they knew. 24 : Yes. 25 : Who? EFTA00058618 98 1 : Operations. 2 : So they should have left 3 notified what person? 4 -: 5 • 6 : If -- 7 : Alright. So -. 8 : -- they knew, they should 9 have yeah. 10 : Okay. So if knew 11 and didn't do anything, the next person in line 12 then should have notified you. He 13 didn't. Next shift comes in. Either Noel or 14 Thomas should have notified . And 15 that's assuming the people in the SHU knew. 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. 18 : Yes. 19 : Um, and either Noel or 20 Thomas. Were either of them - like where you 21 identified Were either of them like 22 the person who should have done it versus the 23 other? Or both of them just as responsible? 24 : I mean they always say when 25 we have newer staff and then senior staff. EFTA00058619 99 1 They always say senior staff. It's just the 2 norm for him to take initiative and just lead 3 the way. 4 : Is there one of those two 5 that were seniors? 6 : Yeah. Thomas has way more 7 time than she has. 8 : Okay. So even though if 9 for instance 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- Noel is the person 12 that's her quarterly assignment. 13 Yep. 14 : And Thomas isn't normally 15 working in the SHU. It would still be -? He's 16 senior staff. He still should be making the -? 17 : That's practice. Yes. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yes. 20 : So he should have. 21 : Because he's senior staff. 22 : Perfect. 23 : Yes. 24 : I just wanted to make 25 sure. EFTA00058620 100 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. Gotcha. 3 : So say like -. Can I just -? 4 : Yeah, go ahead. 5 : Absolutely. 6 : So like say for instance if I 7 have 10 years in and I'm working with someone 8 who has two years in. But they're number one 9 and I'm number two. I'm the one that's still 10 should be like hey we're doing X, Y, and Z. 11 Because I'm more experienced. 12 : A hundred percent. 13 : So we always go with the more 14 experienced. 15 : Okay. Now. Okay. 16 : I just have one question. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : If Efren Reyes was removed 19 from a - like he was in the SHU. He went out. 20 : Who is Reyes? 21 : Epstein's former roommate. 22 : Okay. 23 : If he was removed at let's 24 just say by 8:00 a.m. He had to go to court or 25 whatever it was. EFTA00058621 101 1 2 3 4 let's say 1:00 back. : Mm-hmm. : And then MCC was notified by or 2:00 that he's not coming 5 : Yep. 6 : Would that have - that 7 information have come down to the SHU? Would 8 the SHU have known that he's not coming back? 9 : They -. So they don't know 10 that automatically. No. 11 : But someone would have to 12 inform them. 13 : That is correct. 14 : Is it normal practice to 15 inform them? 16 : Yes. 17 : And who would have made that 18 uh -? 19 : The operations lieutenant. 20 : Who would -? 21 : Would have been told by R&D 22 and the captain. 23 : And that ops lieutenant would 24 be -? Who is that ops lieutenant? 25 -: EFTA00058622 102 1 : And also should have 2 notified the SHU. 3 : Absolutely. 4 : And who in the SHU would he 5 have notified at that point? 6 When we call SHU, we don't 7 always say hey I need to speak to OIC. If I'm 8 on, I want the senior staff because they just 9 know more. So like if I pick up the phone and 10 I know it's somebody with a year in. Oh let me 11 get 12 : Okay. 13 : I want the person with the 14 most time because they're more experienced. So 15 if I'm calling SHU. Hey, I'm saying clear 16 instructions. Make sure Epstein has a cellie 17 in the next hour or the next half hour or 18 whatever. 19 : So who would have been the 20 people in the SHU at that point you could have 21 possibly spoken to? 22 . There's three 23 people. One, two, three, four. Four people 24 was on day watch. 25 : What were their names? EFTA00058623 103 1 • 2 3 : You had a follow-up on that? 4 : No. But I mean is that 5 who would usually call the SHU and says he's 6 not coming back? 7 : No. 8 : No. I didn't think so. 9 : No. No. R&D staff. 10 : R&D should have notified. 11 : Notified SHU. 12 : Yes. 13 : And that's what you 14 asked. 15 : R&D has to notify the captain 16 and lieutenants. 17 : That was my understanding 18 too. 19 : Okay. R&D had to notify 20 them. 21 22 23 Yes. Okay. Now if it's - if it wasn't 24 like a person who needs a cellie, you don't 25 have to call lieutenants and tell them that an EFTA00058624 104 1 inmate left. But if he required a cellmate, 2 and it's a special case, then everyone knows 3 that the phone should be ringing. But if it's 4 just a regular inmate. Somebody got bailed 5 out. It's not that big of a deal. 6 : Just to clarify. Let's say 7 the call wasn't made and none of that happened. 8 Now the 10:00 p.m. count comes around. Whoever 9 is in the SHU has to do the 10:00 p.m. count. 10 If they did the count, and they know, then 11 there was instructions stating hey listen, 12 Epstein needed a cellmate. They did the count, 13 they realized there's not cellmate. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : What should they have done? 16 : They should have got him a 17 cellmate. Because -. 18 : Who should they have 19 notified? 20 : Operations lieutenant. 21 : Okay. 22 : You always call operations 23 lieutenant. But we can - SHU staff can move 24 inmates anytime they want to. 25 : Okay. EFTA00058625 105 1 2 it. So. 3 4 You've just got to justify : Understood. : So you would be calling -. 5 Sorry. Oh, what's up? I was calling you. 6 UNKNWON MALE: What's going on? You 7 called. I'm just - work done. 8 : So you're next. You next? 9 : Alright. So I'm going to 10 move on. Why do COs have to come and conduct 11 rounds? It's just a generic question. Why do 12 they have to conduct rounds? 13 : To check on the wellbeing of 14 inmates. 15 : What about the counts? 16 : Counts to make sure inmates 17 are alive and well and breathing. 18 : Okay. I'm going to move on. 19 Are you aware there's cameras inside the MCC? 20 : Absolutely. 21 : Okay. Have you ever utilized 22 it for work? 23 : What do you mean? 24 : As a lieutenant, have you 25 ever used it to see the staff movement -? EFTA00058626 106 1 : No. I always reviewed it 2 with another lieutenant. 3 : Did you know during that time 4 if any of the cameras were down and not 5 working? 6 : I wouldn't. I didn't' know 7 that. 8 : You didn't. Okay. If the 9 cameras were down, who is responsibility was it 10 to get it fixed or to make sure it was working? 11 : Facilities Department. 12 : Facilities Department. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Now I'm going to go back. 15 You mentioned that in the attorney conference 16 room, you saw Epstein in there. And you 17 interacted with him a little bit. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Or he asked for something. 20 How was his mood that day? 21 : He doesn't really talk much 22 the times that I've observed him in attorney 23 conference. He's always in his work with his 24 attorneys. 25 : Was he annoyed? Was he EFTA00058627 107 1 upsets about anything? Did he show any 2 emotional -? What are SHU inmates allowed to 3 have in their cell? Give me one second. 4 : Keep going. 5 : What are SHU inmates allowed 6 to have in their cell? 7 : Food. 8 : Okay. 9 : Food items. Commissary 10 items. 11 : What kind of commissary 12 items? 13 : Um, like tuna fish, tea bags. 14 : Okay. Just food items like 15 that. What about pill bottles? Are they 16 allowed to have pill bottles in there? 17 : Inmates in the special 18 housing unit. Some of them are self-carry. 19 And some of them have to get their medication 20 when medical makes rounds. 21 : Self-carry meaning -. 22 : It's on their person. 23 : Okay. Was Epstein authorized 24 to have any pills in his cell? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00058628 108 1 : You don't know. Okay. How 2 many changes of clothing or linens are inmates 3 allowed to have in the SHU? 4 : We have shower days Monday, 5 Wednesday, Fridays. And that's when we did 6 linen exchange. 7 : Okay. 8 : And clothing exchange. 9 : Are they supposed to -? Are 10 they allowed to have multiple spare clothing 11 inside the SHU with them? 12 : We call that nuisance. So 13 there are times they accumulate more than what 14 they are supposed to have. 15 : Okay. So it does happen once 16 in a while. 17 : Yes. 18 : Is it a responsibility of the 19 SHU CCOs to make sure that not too many 20 clothing or linens are in that cell? 21 22 23 do they do? 24 : Yes. : Okay. And if there is what : Well if you have 100 inmates 25 in the special housing unit, you know cell EFTA00058629 109 1 2 searches are not conducted every day. On the same inmate. 3 : Okay. 4 : So cell searches are spread 5 out. So like say if you do a shakedown on cell 6 one on Monday, you may get to cell 10 on 7 Thursday. 8 : Okay. 9 : So you know what I'm saying? 10 : You might not have seen it. 11 : Exactly. 12 : They might not have seen it. 13 Okay. How was Epstein's interaction with other 14 inmates? 15 : I don't know. 16 : Okay. 17 : I wouldn't know that. 18 : Do you know if there was any 19 threats made to Epstein? 20 : I don't know. 21 : Okay. These are generic 22 questions I have to get through. 23 : Oh, no. No-no. I know. 24 : Did you know why Epstein was 25 in prison? EFTA00058630 110 1 : Um, pornography, pedophile 2 allegations and charges of that. 3 : Did you have any specific 4 feelings in regarding why he was in prison? 5 : Don't care. 6 : Okay. Did you speak about 7 Epstein with other inmates? 8 : Don't care. 9 : Okay. 10 : No. 11 : When you came back to work 12 the next day. August 10th. What shift did you 13 come back on? 14 : Um, 8:00 to 4:00. 15 : 8:00 to 4:00. When you 16 showed up, was Epstein still there? Or was he 17 already in - at the hospital? 18 : Well I wouldn't know because 19 when everything happened, I wasn't on shift 20 anyway. So I'm not sure what time he 21 : No but you came in at 8:00 22 a.m. Was the ambulance gone - everyone left 23 from there? 24 : I don't remember. 25 : Okay. Did you respond to his EFTA00058631 111 1 cell? Did you go to his cell at all? 2 : No. 3 : Okay. Do you have questions? 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. 6 : So to go back to the 7 counts when he was talking about trying to get 8 you to put that Rubik's Cube together. 9 : Yeah. 10 : Um, you know. So if 11 these were falsified. So let's say now - he 12 kind of pointed out - like at some point it 13 looks like somebody left. We don't know 14 exactly when that was. So let's say 4:00 p.m., 15 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. were falsified. Who 16 would be responsible for falsifying that? 17 Everybody in the SHU? 18 : No. Whoever's names were on 19 the -- 20 : On the count slips? 21 count slips. Correct. 22 : So if there's like four 23 people on the SHU though, it would only be the 24 two people on the count slip not the other two 25 people? EFTA00058632 112 1 : That is correct. 2 : Alright. And that's just 3 -. So it doesn't have to be like a big hey 4 we're not doing counts today. They wouldn't 5 tell the other people we're not doing them. 6 Would the other two people know that they 7 didn't conduct the counts? 8 : Not necessarily because other 9 things are happening. 10 : Okay. 11 Mm-hmm. So if there are four 12 people in SHU like no one's babysitting. Like 13 I'm not hovering over you. Like we have a job 14 to do. You're counting. I could be over there 15 prepping the meals. So you know. Like you're 16 not on my back saying hey are you getting the 17 meals ready. Like you're counting, I'm doing 18 food trays. 19 : Okay. And about how long 20 does a count take? 21 : To count inmates? About 15 22 to 20 minutes if it's a smooth count. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : Just your area. 25 : And that is like a SHU, EFTA00058633 113 1 that's the timeframe? 2 : Yeah. 3 : Okay. And what about for 4 a round? How long does a round take? 5 : On a tier or altogether? 6 : In the SHU. So I'm 7 talking specific to the SHU. Both instances. 8 : Rounds, let me see, two-four- 9 six-eight-ten-twelve. Maybe take you about 12 10 to 15 minutes to -. 11 : So they're roughly the 12 same? 13 : For a smooth round. Now if 14 you're doing rounds an inmates are stopping 15 you. Then you know it can take longer. 16 : Okay. Now rounds, I've 17 heard some instances where if people go down 18 the range to deal with something, they could 19 potentially count that as a round. Is that -? 20 : So like -. That is correct. 21 So if you're -. Say for instance if an inmate 22 is saying he needs a roll of tissue. And you 23 get the tissue and you go on the tier. And 24 you're like oh. And his tier is all the way in 25 the corner. Me? I would have the roll of EFTA00058634 114 1 tissue. I would look at every inmate. Give 2 you your tissue. Keep going. Killing two 3 birds with one stone. 4 : Perfect. And you don't 5 actually have to check in with them when you're 6 doing a round? Like you good? You good? You 7 good? You just look. 8 : So no. Rounds - officer 9 rounds - it's the inmates like, we're here. 10 : Yep. 11 : So I'm on your door. You 12 know I'm an officer. 13 14 15 something. 16 : You walk by. If you need something, say : Sure. 17 : You know if someone in there 18 doing jumping jacks, pushups, you know. 19 : Whereas the count, you 20 actually need to check in and say -? 21 : The count is we're checking 22 for inmates are standing up for count. Making 23 sure that they're facing you. we need to see 24 live breathing bodies. So. 25 : And how do you do it at EFTA00058635 115 1 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? Do you 2 guys wake them up? 3 : They see flashlights. Yes. 4 : So you actually have to 5 wake the people up? 6 : So like if the inmates are -. 7 They don't have to stand up. It's not a 8 standup count. 9 : So you good? 10 : Over night. So if they're 11 laying down and some have the covers over their 12 head, knock. They'll pull the sheets over. 13 You see their face. They move. You're seeing 14 movement, you're seeing live, breathing bodies. 15 : Okay. But they do 16 actually have to knock. They do have to see 17 them move. 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. Can you show her 20 that email? Do you have the email? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. And this is an 23 email that went from - and you said, psychology 24 really should have made that -. Psychology 25 sent it out. It looks like to almost all the EFTA00058636 116 1 lieutenants -- 2 3 Okay. : -- saying that Epstein 4 was required to have a cellmate. 5 Yep. 6 : And that was on July 30th 7 of 2019. 8 : Okay. 9 : You've never seen that. 10 Correct? 11 : That is correct. 12 : Alright. So it - that 13 went out. Now all the lieutenants know. You 14 can kind of flip the page and kind of see 15 everybody -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- that was on it. 18 : Got you. 19 : Who should have told you 20 about that? So it was never 21 As an officer or a -? 22 : As an acting. You're now 23 an acting lieutenant. 24 : Yes. 25 : Whose responsibility was EFTA00058637 117 1 it to tell you as an acting lieutenant hey -. 2 : Operations. Because he is -. 3 Although I'm acting, I don't get lieutenant 4 emails because I'm not an official lieutenant. 5 : So that day 6 should have told you hey by the way? 7 : Yes. 8 : And how often in August 9 leading up to that -? So from July 30th until 10 August 9th. How often were you an acting 11 lieutenant? 12 : I do off and on for overtime. 13 : So -. 14 : So I would have to look at my 15 roster to know -- 16 : Oh you're have to look. 17 : -- if I was on activities 18 that day, I was activities that day. 19 : Do your Was it quite 20 often? 21 : Around that time? Because 22 they were short lieutenants, I would say at 23 least maybe once or twice a month. I did 24 activities lieutenant. 25 : Once or twice a month. EFTA00058638 118 1 : Yes. 2 : Alright. So being that 3 this was only July 30th to August 9th -. 4 : Maybe twice. 5 : Possible twice? 6 : Yeah, two-three times 7 probably. 8 : Do you think it's -. 9 Being that the lieutenants 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : -- or the ops lieutenants 12 and activities lieutenants, should have someone 13 told you? 14 : Absolutely. 15 : Okay. 16 : Yes. 17 : And in this case, when 18 you're working, it should have been 19 : Yes. 20 : Alright. So 21 should have told you -- 22 : Yes. 23 : -- hey just so you know, 24 Epstein 25 : Yes. EFTA00058639 119 1 : Alright. As far as -. 2 Nope. Never mind. Those were my follow-ups. 3 Let me just look at this. Now in any of those 4 instances, would the captain be responsible? 5 Or does it always -? Do you think it's really 6 the ops lieutenant? 7 : Captain. 8 : The captain would be 9 responsible? So should have the captain told 10 you as well then? 11 : The captain can always 12 communicate with his lieutenants. Always. 13 : Okay. But as an acting 14 lieutenant I mean. 15 : Oh absolutely. If I'm acting 16 that day, then it's his or her responsibility 17 to include me in what's going on. 18 : Okay. So what about in 19 this instance where you didn't start until I 20 think later in the day. 21 : Yeah. 22 : Captain's gone. 23 24 25 : Yeah. : So would it -? : I forgot about that. Yeah. EFTA00058640 120 1 Yeah, so if I'm starting at four, he's gone. 2 : So it should have been 3 again -. 4 : Yes. 5 : -- at the ops. 6 : Is there a SHU lieutenant? 7 : There is a SHU lieutenant but 8 I don't think that day they had. 9 : Was the SHU 10 lieutenant? 11 : I don't remember who was the 12 SHU lieutenant at the time. 13 : If there was a SHU lieutenant 14 and they -. What was normal schedule? Like 15 what would have been their schedule? 16 : Um, 6:00 to 2:00 and 7:00 to 17 3:00. 18 : Okay. So they would be gone 19 before you came on to your shift? 20 : Yes. 21 : Would - if it had been their 22 responsibility to also make sure that since 23 you're coming into the SHU to work as 24 lieutenant -. Would that have been their 25 responsibility to pass that message on to you EFTA00058641 121 1 too? 2 3 : Yes. : Okay. 4 : And did you say you were 5 unaware that the range camera in the SHU was 6 down? 7 : That is correct? 8 : And whose responsibility 9 would it have been -? Would the people working 10 in the SHU known that it was down? 11 : So if you're in the SHU, you 12 don't know that the cameras are inoperable. 13 Unless like it's broken like you see a crack. 14 But just if it looks like a camera, you don't 15 know if it's inoperable. So if the Facilities 16 responsibly to fix the cameras. Now if you're 17 in the control center, and you see a camera 18 out, then you notify the (Indiscernible 19 *01:29:09). 20 : And if you're in 21 facilities and you're told that the camera is 22 out, about how quickly should that camera be 23 fixed? 24 : I'm not sure what the 25 timeframes are. But you know, certain things, EFTA00058642 122 1 I don't know if a SHU camera takes priority 2 over a general population camera. I don't' 3 know. But work orders have to be submitted. 4 You know staff have to be around. So you know, 5 it just really depends on what the job is. 6 : Okay. And do you know if 7 anybody in facilities specifically would be 8 responsible for doing it? 9 Well Facilities is a big crew 10 of individuals. So whoever they designate to 11 fix the camera. 12 : Who -? 13 : It could be anybody. 14 : Okay. Anything else? 15 : Did you see any maintenance 16 happing with the cameras during that time? Any 17 crews coming in there to fix the cameras? 18 Anything like that? 19 : I mean it's a prison. I mean 20 everyone works on everything. You know what 21 I'm saying? 22 : Okay. 23 : But do I recall like 24 Facilities being in SHU that day? I can't tell 25 you that. Yes or no because I really just EFTA00058643 123 1 don't remember. You know what I'm saying? 2 : Now do you find anything 3 suspicious with the death of Epstein yourself? 4 Like the fact, you know, different counts, 5 cameras down, things like that? 6 : No. 7 : No? So what is your 8 opinion on the matter? 9 : I really don't have an 10 opinion. I just feel like you know I come to 11 work. I try to do my job the best way I can. 12 You know. My goal is to come in, do what I 13 need to do, go the extra mile, and just go home 14 in one piece. Like I'm not -. I don't focus 15 on specific inmates and what their crime is. I 16 treat everybody with respect. And I just want 17 to go home. 18 : Sure. 19 : So. 20 : And like do you think 21 somebody dropped the ball here? Do you think 22 that there's somebody that's responsible in 23 this matter? From the limited information you 24 know. Or do you think it's -? 25 : Are you asking me my opinion? EFTA00058644 124 1 : From but like an educated 2 opinion based upon what we've talked about and 3 what you've been able to gather. And working 4 there. Being on duty that August 9th. 5 Mm-hmm. Sure. I mean in my 6 honest opinion, I do think that some mistakes 7 were made. Some honest mistakes were made on 8 certain individuals' part. Absolutely. 9 : Okay 10 : I mean it's clear that 11 mistakes were made. You know. It's proof is 12 there that mistakes were made. 13 : Sure. Now if the 4:00 14 p.m., 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 5:00 15 a.m. counts weren't conducted -. 16 : If they weren't? 17 : If they weren't. 18 : Okay. 19 : How serious do you think 20 that is? 21 22 23 I get paid to count inmates. : Right. So if I'm not counting 24 inmates, I should just stay home. 25 : Okay. So that is like EFTA00058645 125 1 : Counts is, that's the primary 2 reason why we're correctional officers. 3 : Okay. 4 : Are to account for inmates. 5 : Okay. I like it. That's 6 a good statement. And what about rounds? If 7 the rounds weren't conducted. Same? 8 9 10 Absolutely. : Okay. Rounds are equally as 11 important. Absolutely. 12 : Alright. 13 : Are you aware of any policy 14 violations or things like that at the MCC? 15 : No. 16 : That's all I have. 17 : Anything else you want to 18 -? Did you ask her about the pills and stuff 19 like that? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Anything else that you 22 know that he had that he shouldn't have had? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. Anything else you 25 want to add? EFTA00058646 126 1 : No. 2 : Okay. It is 4:47 p.m. on 3 Monday June 14, 2021. This is Senior Special 4 Agent and I am turning off 5 the recorder. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00058647 127 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00058648