EFTA00059671.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00059671 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00059672 3 1 : The recorder is on. It 2 is Tuesday, June 15, 2021 and the time is 5:57 3 p.m. 4 : My name is 5 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 7 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 8 This interview is with Federal Bureau of 9 Prisons Correctional Officer, Lieutenant - can 10 you state your name? 11 12 : First name? 13 14 -: . And is being 15 conducted as part of an official U.S. 16 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 17 General investigation. Today is June 15th and 18 the time is 5:58 p.m. The interview is being 19 conducted at 6 West 23rd Street, Deer Park, New 20 York. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior Special 21 Agent Dennis 22 • , and again, 23 these are my credentials. 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : This interview will be EFTA00059673 4 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record and spell your last name, to start? 4 Again, I am DOJ Special Agent 5 • • 6 : My name is Senior Special 7 Agent 8 9 • : Lieutenant 10 : As I stated before, this is 11 an official DOJ investigation into the death of 12 inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing 13 surrounding that and you're being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ OIG? 17 : Yes. 18 : As part of our procedure, I'm 19 going to provide you with DOJ OIG form 3226 20 226-2. I'm going to read the form out loud to 21 you and give you a chance to review it also. 22 "United States Department of Justice, Office of 23 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 24 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 25 a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to EFTA00059674 5 1 provide information as part of an investigation 2 being conducted by the Office of Inspector 3 General. This investigation is being conducted 4 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 5 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 6 performance failure and security failure. This 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 10 not to answer any questions. Any statement you 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 12 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 13 proceeding or both." Now the waiver for you. 14 "I understand the warnings and assurances 15 stated above and I am willing to make a 16 statement and answer questions. No promises or 17 threats have been made to me and no pressure or 18 coercion of any kind has been used against me." 19 Do you understand that? 20 : Uh-huh. 21 : Do you wish to proceed with 22 the interview? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Please review the document 25 and once you review the document, please sign EFTA00059675 6 1 where it says, "Employee signature." 2 : Do you need a pen? 3 : I have. Thank you. 4 : There's a line that says, 5 "Employee signature," -- 6 : Uh-huh. 7 -- and sign your name there 8 and below there can you please print your name? 9 : Thank you sir. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 : I'm signing the signature of 12 the Office of Inspector General's Special 13 Agent. 14 : Thank you for signing the 15 document, both of you, and for dating it 16 6/15/21 at 6:02 p.m. I am signing my name and 17 signature of witness and printing my name, name 18 of witness. 19 : Before we start the 20 interview, I'd like to place you under oath, 21 Can you please raise your right 22 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 23 nothing but the truth during this interview? 24 : Yes. 25 : Thank you. EFTA00059676 7 1 : I do. 2 : Please let me know if you do 3 not understand any questions I ask, I'll repeat 4 it and I'll try to rephrase it for you. Okay? 5 What is your current home address? 6 7 8 : Your date of birth? 9 10 : And what is your social 11 security number? 12 : He doesn't need to 13 provide that if he doesn't want to. Would you 14 mind for the record, can you show us your 15 credentials again and then we can use that as 16 verification for your - all right. Thank you, 17 sir, for showing your credentials. I'm looking 18 at the U.S. Department of Justice Federal 19 Bureau of Prisons law enforcement officer 20 credentials, certify that is a 21 Lieutenant at the MCC New York, New York. I 22 see a picture that matches the gentleman that 23 is sitting in front of us. 24 : Thank you. 25 : You're welcome. EFTA00059677 8 1 2 • , what's your highest level of education? 3 : I have a bachelors of science 4 degree. 5 : In what subject? 6 : Community Services. 7 : What college did you receive 8 that from? 9 10 : What year did you receive it? 11 12 • . Okay. What did 13 you do prior to working for the BOP? 14 : I was in the military and I 15 worked in a law firm. 16 : Thank you for your service. 17 What branch of the military? 18 : United States Navy Reserves. 19 : How long were you in the 20 military for? 21 : 20 years, 23 days, and 21 hours 22 or something like that. 23 : What was your position and 24 title when you 25 : I was an E-6 ship service man, EFTA00059678 9 1 first class petty officer. 2 3 the military? 4 And are you still active in : No, I'm retired. 5 : Thank you. 6 : And did you retire in 7 2019? 8 : Yes. 9 : October? 10 : October 2019. 11 : How long have you served with 12 the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 13 : Thirteen years. 14 : Thirteen years? And what was 15 the entry on duty date? 16 - I mean, 17 18 : Did you graduate from BOP 19 training? 20 : Yes. 21 : What year? 22 23 : Okay. When and where was 24 your first office assignment with the BOP? 25 : Brooklyn, MDC Brooklyn. EFTA00059679 10 1 : That was in 2008? 2 : Yes. 3 : And what positions - how long 4 did you stay at the MDC for? 5 6 7 : Five and a half years. : Five and a half? : I stayed there from to 8 9 : Where did you go in October? 10 : MCC New York. 11 : Was it a promotion or 12 lateral? 13 : Lateral. 14 : Okay. When did you get - 15 what was the next step, promotion that you got? 16 : GS-8. 17 : To what position? 18 : MCC New York, Senior Officer 19 Specialist. 20 : And what year was that? 21 : Think, I'm going to say 22 : Okay. And what was the next 23 promotion after that? 24 : GS-9. 25 : GS-9 what? What was the EFTA00059680 11 1 title? 2 : I was a Counselor. 3 : Okay. And after that? 4 : GS-11 Lieutenant. 5 : When did you become a 6 Lieutenant? 7 : I was temp Lieutenant in 2016. 8 Then, I got 2000, I think `17, I got promoted 9 to - '17 or `18 I got promoted to GS-11. 10 : What was your position at the 11 MCC on August 9th and 10th -- 12 : I was a -. 13 : -- of 2019? 14 : I was a Lieutenant. 15 : I'll read it. 16 : Okay. 17 : So we have a - is it 18 correct that you were interviewed already by 19 the FBI and the OIG? 20 : Yes. 21 : Regarding the matter 22 leading up to Epstein's death on August 9th -. 23 : Correct. 24 : Great. Thank you. I'm 25 just going to read the report that was created EFTA00059681 12 1 from that interview. It is an FBI report so I 2 can't physically hand it to you but because the 3 OIG was there, it's our information to ask, 4 that's why I'll be able to read it to you. 5 Just, as I'm reading it, just let me know if 6 there's anything that's inaccurate and then 7 I'll probably stop along the way to just kind 8 of ask for a little bit more collaborations. 9 It says, "Prior to employment with the Bureau 10 of Prisons, was a Paralegal at Skadden Law 11 Firm." 12 Skadden. 13 : Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : "He worked litigation, 16 pro bono, mergers and acquisitions for 17 approximately 10 years." And was that 18 approximately from 1998 to 2008? 19 : Approximately. 20 : Okay. has also 21 been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20 22 years. was employed as a Corrections 23 Officer with the BOP in at the 24 Metropolitan Detention Center herein after 25 MDC," is that correct? EFTA00059682 13 1 : It was January. 2 : January of 1999? 3 : Where? 4 This is saying that I 5 don't think this was correct. So, it says that 6 you were with the MDC since June of 1999. 7 : I was there - no, not `99, no. 8 : I thought you said in 9 2008 you started. 10 11 not `99. 12 : 2008 I said I started. Yeah, : All right. So you 13 started with the MDC - with the BOP and at the 14 MDC in -- 15 : 2000 -. 16 • 17 Yes. 18 : Okay. transitioned 19 to the BOP Metropolitan Correction Center, or 20 the MCC, on," it says, " 21 : Yes. 22 : "He was later promoted to 23 the rank of Lieutenant on 24 : Yeah, July sometime. 25 : Okay. was the EFTA00059683 14 1 Special Housing Unit, or SHU, Lieutenant for 2 approximately 90 days since Lieutenants rotate 3 throughout the MCC every 90 days." Is that 4 correct? 5 : Uh-huh. 6 : According to , his 7 duties and responsibilities were as follows." 8 So prior to us going on. So you were 90 days 9 up until this incident? Were you just about to 10 rotate out of the SHU then? 11 : No. 12 : Okay. 13 : I was just still the SHU 14 Lieutenant. 15 : So were you -. 16 : So -. 17 : So the way that this 18 reads is almost like you were only there for 90 19 days. Were you there for -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- longer than 90 days? 22 : Well, I was taken out because I 23 was out on an injury. 24 : Prior to that though, how 25 long were you the SHU Lieutenant? EFTA00059684 15 1 : Yeah, for about - because we 2 switch. I was on the desk and just before, I 3 think, like program review or something like 4 that, after program review, they put me up 5 there. 6 : All right. But all of 7 July and August of 2000 -- 8 : Yeah, I was - yeah. 9 : -- and `19, so, okay. So 10 you were the SHU Lieutenant for all - at least 11 July and 12 : Uh-huh. 13 14 bit prior. 15 16 : -- August and a little : Yeah. Uh-huh. : So it says, "According to 17 duties and responsibilities are as 18 follows. Control max wing, 10 south and 19 oversee the regular SHU." 20 : Uh-huh. 21 : And 10 south, my 22 understanding is that's the very high profile 23 inmates that have one inmate per cell, there's 24 constant supervision by cameras on them -- 25 : Cameras. EFTA00059685 16 1 : -- at all times? 2 : Uh-huh. 3 : Okay. Maybe like 4 terrorists? 5 : Uh-huh. 6 : People that go into those 7 - okay. You supervise employees, you control 8 moves, you oversee segregation reviews 9 hereinafter referred to as SROs. "Ensure 10 inmates are given what they have coming." What 11 does that mean? "Ensure inmate -. 12 : That means, whatever the 13 institution - if they have - they need soap, 14 they get soap. If they need toilet paper, they 15 get toilet paper. If they need a pen, pad to 16 write on, they get it. 17 : So the supplies that 18 they're 19 : Supplies that they -- 20 • -- required, you ensure - 21 - 22 : -- that - I ensure that they -. 23 : -- that they receive what 24 they -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00059686 17 1 2 3 : -- what they require. : Uh-huh. : Okay. And then the next 4 thing that they wrote was, "A lot." So I'm 5 assuming what they meant is you have a lot of 6 responsibilities. 7 : Yes. 8 is generally the 9 Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 10 shift supervisor." 11 : Yes. 12 : Were you working a lot of 13 overtime there? 14 : Yes. 15 And when you were doing 16 your OT, were you also in the SHU? 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. Would that be 19 : Because as the Operations 20 Lieutenant, you've got to go to Special 21 Housing. 22 : Okay. So if you were 23 doing OT, you weren't necessarily the SHU 24 Lieutenant, you were the Operations Lieutenant 25 EFTA00059687 18 1 : No. 2 : -- you were the 3 Operations Lieutenant, but you covered the SHU. 4 : Or activities, yes. 5 : So you were - you would - 6 . 7 : So. 8 : So during your OT shifts, 9 you typically would do either Activities or 10 Operations Lieutenant? 11 : Yes. 12 : And were you doing that 13 almost on like a daily basis up until then? 14 : Something like that. Uh-huh. 15 : And would it typically be 16 like the morning watch or the evening watch or 17 -. 18 : Any shift. 19 : Any? 20 : Yes. 21 : Was a lot of it mandated 22 or voluntary or both? 23 : It was - I mean, it was short, 24 so, you know. 25 : Like, like, like EFTA00059688 19 1 forbidding, you've served as both Activities 2 and the Ops -- 3 : Uh-huh. 4 : -- Lieutenant, so you're 5 familiar with those duties and 6 responsibilities, correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : Great. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : All right. So, " 11 advised that there is a mandatory quarterly 12 training in the SHU program for BOP employees." 13 Now, have you ever conducted that training? 14 : Yes. 15 : You've participated? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : Okay, great. And do you 18 know of the individuals that were working in 19 the SHU for their quarterly assignments had 20 also received that training at the time? 21 : Some have received that 22 training. 23 : Possibly not all? 24 : But possibly not all. 25 : Okay. EFTA00059689 20 1 : But if they didn't, you know, 2 we went around and we showed them, you know, 3 showed them training. 4 : Okay. So anybody that 5 hadn't gone 6 : So -- 7 : -- to that training -. 8 people that was assigned 9 that were supposed to be there, went to the 10 training. 11 : Okay. 12 : And if they didn't go for 13 whatever reason, if they was out sick or 14 whatever, I tried to get them trained, you 15 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the 16 training with them, you know, hands on. 17 : Now, are you the person 18 that would present the training at the 19 quarterly training? 20 : Yes. 21 : Okay. So as the -. 22 : Normally the SHU Lieutenant 23 does. 24 : Okay. So you provided 25 probably the last quarterly training and then EFTA00059690 21 1 anyone who didn't attend that training, you 2 provided them personal training yourself? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. 5 : But I don't know if I did it. 6 The prior SHU Lieutenant probably gave the 7 training. 8 : Okay. Had you done it in 9 the past? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : "He also reviews 292 14 forms which track an inmate's meals, 15 recreation, medical attention and showers." Is 16 that like the forms that go into their 17 personnel file? 18 : Yes. Uh-huh. 19 : And those files in the 20 SHU, they're kept in the SHU? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. 23 : The on the computer - they're 24 supposed to be printed out every week -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00059691 22 1 : -- because you've got to go 2 backwards. 3 : And as I'm told, they're 4 printed out on Sundays? 5 : Yes. They're supposed to be 6 printed out like on Sunday morning watch. 7 : Okay. 8 : Put into the file and, you 9 know, because it's a new week. The new week -- 10 : Uh-huh. 11 is going to start because 12 that morning is breakfast. So it's breakfast, 13 and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go, 14 breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D. 15 So, breakfast is first at 6 o'clock, or, you 16 know, 5:44, whatever time the count cleared is 17 breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner. 18 : Okay. So you said on 19 Sundays, is there typically one person that 20 works on Sundays or is it -- 21 : No, it's 22 : -- whoever is working -- 23 : -- always -. 24 : -- on that side? 25 : It's always - yeah. It's EFTA00059692 23 1 always supposed to be two up there -- 2 3 4 : Okay. : -- on - on -. : But it's not like 5 typically the same two is what I'm asking? 6 : Yeah, no. 7 : Okay. 8 : Huh-uh. 9 : So it's whoever is 10 working that shift -- 11 : Whoever is working. 12 : -- on a Sunday. 13 : Yeah. Hopefully, you know, 14 well, we had a steady OIC, but he got out, he 15 got injured and was out sick, so, you know, 16 it's by the luck of the draw, whoever is 17 available. 18 : Okay. So who was the 19 officer in charge or OIC who got injured? 20 : For morning watch, I don't 21 know. 22 : No, no, no, who got 23 injured, who got out? 24 : Oh, it was Collado (Phonetic 25 Sp. *00:17:46), I think it was, but he was - EFTA00059693 24 1 yeah, he was out. 2 : And about when did he go 3 out? 4 : I don't remember. 5 : All right. But in 6 August, do you remember if there was an OIC? 7 : I don't remember. 8 : You don't remember? 9 Sure. 10 : I have to look at the roster - 11 I don't -. 12 : Absolutely. Do you have 13 the rosters? Just when we ask some of these 14 questions, you might want to just be able to 15 kind of look at this to be able to kind of 16 refresh your memory. 17 : Uh-huh. 18 : And so, Special Agent 19 is giving you, or I will be giving you 20 the - one is going to be the duty assignment 21 roster from August 9th and the other one is 22 going to be from August 10th. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : I'm sure you're familiar 25 with these. EFTA00059694 25 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : Sure. So you'll be able 3 to like if -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : -- the SHU is towards the 6 bottom and then who was on duty. It'll show 7 you the Ops, you know, the Ops Lieutenant and 8 the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth. 9 All right. So, it says, "Every SHU inmate has 10 an associated 292 form as long as they are in 11 the SHU population." 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : "Once they rotate to 14 another population, the form is invalid and no 15 longer exists." Now, what does that mean? Do 16 they destroy the forms? 17 : No. So what happens is, okay, 18 the way the program operates is, once you come 19 out of the SHU program, like say for instance, 20 if you key to suicide watch area, your original 21 form, or whatever form, is, if it didn't get 22 printed, if there's a form there, but that 23 stops, the time stops. 24 : You mean they create a 25 new form for every housing unit you go into is EFTA00059695 26 1 what you're saying. 2 : No. Only 292s are in the 3 Special Housing Unit, it's not 4 • Okay. 5 : -- in general population. 6 : Okay. So is there -- 7 : So 8 : -- one in suicide watch 9 and -. 10 : No. 11 : No. 12 : On suicide watch, there's 13 booklets and there's - it says, there's a form 14 where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did the 15 inmate, you know, get a shower? Like that. 16 : Okay. But what does it 17 mean when it says that they wrote, "Once they 18 rotate to another population the form is 19 invalid and no longer exists?" Are they 20 referring -. 21 : Is not in the program. They're 22 not in the program so I cannot -. 23 : It doesn't continue. 24 : It doesn't continue, yeah. 25 : But it doesn't, like, get EFTA00059696 27 1 destroyed, it remains -- 2 3 4 : No. : -- in their file. : If it gets printed. 5 : But it -. 6 : But, like, say - once they come 7 off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could 8 go back and see if the individual was there. 9 But once they come off the program, I cannot 10 create a document for you. 11 : Sure. So are the 12 documents maintained electronically? 13 : It's a program, so I don't - as 14 long as you in the SHU program, in the roster, 15 because SENTRY and BOPWare talk to each other. 16 Right? And so what happens is if a person is 17 keyed into SHU, there's a little box you have 18 to press. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : In BOPWare, and it's 21 timestamped. So, once that person is there, it 22 creates an AD order, administrative detention 23 order. Once that administrative detention 24 order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there 25 why the individual was placed in Special EFTA00059697 28 1 Housing -- 2 : Uh-huh. 3 has to be a reason. If that 4 form is not filled out, the Captain gets an 5 email from the region saying there's a blank AD 6 order in here, right? So I used to go in there 7 and look every morning to see if somebody, 8 whoever got placed in Special Housing to see 9 what the charges was or if that form was filled 10 out. 11 : Okay. 12 : If that form wasn't filled out, 13 I look at the Lieutenant's log or I call the 14 Lieutenant, whoever, you know, "Why did this 15 inmate get locked up?" Normally when I do my 16 rounds, I ask the inmates, "Why are you up 17 here?" Some of them lie and they, "I don't 18 know why I'm up here," whatever. But then I 19 find out why they up there, then I know why. 20 It could be SIS investigation, it could be 21 because of a fight. 22 : Sure. 23 : It could be multiple reasons 24 why the AD order wasn't created. However, we 25 try to create and do the AD order to place the EFTA00059698 29 1 inmate so that he can have a 292 and he'd be on 2 the SHU report. 3 : So what I'm asking though 4 is -- 5 : Uh-huh. 6 -- once it's created, 7 once they're there and once this 292 is 8 created, even if it's not printed out, is it 9 maintained in the system? 10 : Yes. 11 : And is it ever deleted? 12 : No. 13 : So that's what I'm 14 asking. So when this says, "Ceases to exist," 15 I just want to make sure, is once they leave 16 the SHU, it's not deleted. It's still always 17 going to exist in a file. 18 : I mean, long - you've got a 19 register number, you could go back, but I don't 20 know how long the program, you could go back 21 and forth to pull a 292. 22 : Okay. 23 : You know, once the person is 24 out of SHU. You know, some forms you can go 25 back and you can pull it. EFTA00059699 30 1 : Okay. 2 : But it'll stop at the day that 3 that person was released or, you know, placed 4 in another housing unit. 5 : Okay. Now, people that 6 are in the SHU and get placed in another 7 housing unit, the papers that were printed out, 8 what is done with those? 9 : Those goes to the unit team. 10 : Okay. So that goes, if 11 they went to a different housing unit, it goes 12 -- 13 : It goes to the -- 14 : -- to the unit. 15 : -- unit team and the mailbox, 16 their file, you know, it tells you on the 17 thing, "Copy to unit team for central file." 18 : Okay. 19 : And it goes into their - 20 supposed to go into their folder. 21 : But it's not destroyed 22 either? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. 25 : Huh-uh. EFTA00059700 31 1 : It says, "Medical 2 personnel visit the SHU twice a day for rounds 3 in the mornings and the evenings." And it that 4 every day? 5 : Yes. 6 : So - on weekends too? 7 : Yes. 8 : So medical personnel 9 visit the SHU two times a day, okay. 10 : Two - twice per shift, yes. 11 : Around when do they 12 usually show up? Is there -. 13 : Depends. Sometimes they there 14 at, you know, 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock in the 15 morning and then, again, they come up after the 16 4 o'clock count or they might come up before 17 that. 18 : Okay. 19 : You know, when shift changes. 20 : But they actually 21 participate in the rounds? 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. regularly 24 audits 292 forms from the previous day." So 25 you'd be constantly seeing, making sure your EFTA00059701 32 1 staff are doing what they're supposed to be 2 doing -- 3 : Uh-huh. 4 : -- with those forms? 5 Okay. " advised that accountability of 6 inmates is important. He never caught anyone 7 intentionally not doing their job. also 8 reviews round forms and searches for red flags. 9 These could be missing spaces, missing 10 signatures, etcetera. If caught, 11 approaches the individual and requests an 12 explanation." So have you ever caught someone 13 then not doing rounds or -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : -- anyone that was 16 working on that day - on August 9th or 10th 17 that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have 18 to discuss this matter with any of those 19 individuals? 20 : Naw. 21 : There's no one in there 22 that you can - that were working on either day? 23 : Not that I know of, no. 24 : Okay. Can you think of 25 anyone that you did ever have to deal with for EFTA00059702 33 1 not conducting rounds or counts? 2 : On day watch, you know, we 3 would ask, "You're doing showers, we down 4 range, we doing this." It gots to get filled 5 out after, you know, that -. 6 : But can you think of 7 anyone that you actually had to - that you 8 caught not doing it? Or I should say, your 9 last day at work was on August 8th. Who was 10 the last person you caught not conducting 11 rounds in the -- 12 : Oh, I don't remember. 13 : SHU? You don't? 14 : I don't remember. 15 : Okay. That's fine. 16 : No, sir. 17 : But you don't believe it 18 was any of the people that were working? 19 : No. 20 : Okay. was the SHU 21 Lieutenant when Epstein was assigned. Epstein 22 wasn't originally in the SHU. advised 23 Epstein was in 10 South Lower." 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : "The population is for EFTA00059703 34 1 inmates not on 10 South but high-profile." 2 Okay, so this is the first. There's two 3 different 10 Souths? 4 : No. There's 10 South, then 5 there's 10 South Lower. 6 : What's 10 South Lower? 7 I don't know -. 8 : G Tier. 9 : Okay. 10 : All right? G Tier has four 11 cells where you can put high-profile or 12 terrorist inmates if 10 South is full. 13 : Okay. 14 : 10 South only holds a maximum 15 of six inmates. 16 : So was he originally 17 going to go to 10 South then and was changed 18 : Oh, I don't know. 19 : So -. 20 : When I got there, he was on G 21 Tier. 22 : Okay. So I thought you 23 just said that 10 South Lower is for people 24 that were going if 10 South was full. 25 : They can put you on the Tier, EFTA00059704 35 1 but they put a lot of - they put disruptive 2 inmates on that tier. 3 : Okay. 4 : So it's not up to me, it's up 5 to that shift Lieutenant. 6 : Sure. 7 : But, if the Captain or somebody 8 or, you know, the Warden or somebody, "Hey, put 9 that guy on G Tier then that's where he's 10 going," that's where that individual will go. 11 That's where he will be housed if that 12 individual was disruptive or anything like 13 that. 14 : And do you how long he 15 was on 10 South Lower approximately? 16 : I don't know. 17 : Was it a long time? 18 : I don't know. 19 : You don't know? 20 : Like, when he - I guess, you 21 know, when he got there to the institution, he 22 23 24 25 was put on - he was on G Tier. : G Tier is 10 South Lower? : Yes. : Okay. Is 10 South Lower EFTA00059705 36 1 2 3 similar to 10 South in the sense that it's one inmate per cell? : Yes. 4 : And are there cameras in 5 those -. 6 : Yes. 7 : All right, so it's set up 8 pretty much the same way as 10 South? 9 : Yes. 10 : So he was never placed in 11 the general population. 12 : I don't think so. 13 : Okay. So when he came 14 in, you believe he was first put on 10 South 15 Lower and then transferred to the SHU. 16 : Yes. i7 : Okay. And you had 18 oversight -- 19 : When -. 20 : -- though -. 21 : When - when -. 22 : You have oversight over - 23 - 24 : When he was -. 25 : -- 10 South. EFTA00059706 37 1 : When he was moved off of G 2 Tier, if that's the question you're asking me, 3 and placed with a bunkie, that didn't come from 4 me. 5 : Sure. Who does - so, did 6 you supervise both 10 South, 10 South Lower and 7 the regular SHU? 8 : Yeah, and the regular SHU, yes. 9 : Okay. And is that all 10 the same 11 : That's all the same. 12 : -- kind of unit? 13 : Uh-huh. 14 : Okay. 15 : It's one big unit. 16 : Okay. 17 : Upstairs is a separate unit 18 because it's not on - only unit that's 10 South 19 Lower is in the Special Housing Unit. 20 : Okay. So that's 21 : It's on the Special Housing 22 Unit count. 23 : So your understanding 24 though is Epstein was always somewhere in that 25 unit, in 10 - the SHU unit. EFTA00059707 38 1 2 3 4 regular SHU. : : Yes. : Whether lower or just Yes. 5 : Okay. 6 : I got a - just one -- 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : You just mentioned - you said 9 that the G Tier, the 10 South Lower, is always 10 part of the SHU count. 11 : Yes. 12 : So is that ZA or ZB? 13 : ZA. 14 ZA. Okay. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : ZA or -. 17 : ZB is 10 South. 18 : So ZA was the whole 19 thing. 20 : No. 21 : Oh, can we have you look 22 at these counts then, just for clarification? 23 : It should be - look - if you 24 look at - if you pull up the document for the 25 El that you just flipped by. EFTA00059708 39 1 2 3 4 : got ZA and ZB. : Yeah. Okay? You look at the El, it ZB has the shorter count. : So ZA says - so I'm 5 looking at the count from 8/9/2015, the time on 6 it shows 1541, so I guess it's the 3:00 p.m. 7 There is no 3:00 p.m. 8 : 4:00 p.m. 9 : 4:00 p.m. count? 10 : Yeah. That was actually when 11 it was created. 12 : It shows for ZA, there 13 were 75, for ZE it says 5. 14 : Yes. ZB is always shorter. 15 : So what I was saying, 16 isn't the 75 count the entire SHU? 17 : It's ZA. 18 : Not -. 19 : It's not - 10 South is not 20 included because 10 South is a separate unit. 21 : Right. 22 : The G Tier is part of ZA -- 23 : Correct. 24 : -- not ZE. 25 : So that's what we were EFTA00059709 40 1 asking -- 2 3 : Yes, yes. : -- is that ZA - the 10 4 South Lower is incorporated with the whole of 5 the regular SHU. 6 : ZA, yes. 7 : And ZB is just 10 South. 8 : Yes. 9 : Right. "Epstein was 10 assigned to cell 201 in the SHU. During their 11 first - okay, is that correct? 12 : I guess. I don't know. 13 : "During their first 14 encounter, Epstein asked `Am I going to 15 get out of here?' remembers Epstein 16 frequenting the attorney conference area for 17 long periods of time." Is it true that at 18 almost - while he was assigned to the SHU was 19 just about every day he was in the - he would 20 go to the attorney area? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. advised that 23 at one point during the beginning at a meeting 24 with MCC Executive Management, they wanted to 25 house Epstein with a bunkie. doesn't EFTA00059710 41 1 recall exactly who requested this action, 2 however, he remembers they were trying to 3 identify an inmate. Ultimately, they decided 4 to house Epstein with Tartaglione. wasn't 5 asked for his input and followed Executive 6 Management orders. There was an instant on 7 7/23/2019 between the two but it didn't occur 8 on shift. He heard about it the next 9 day. completed the 583 10 packet which includes memos and photos 11 resulting from the incident." So although you 12 weren't there, were you familiar with what 13 happened or had -. 14 : I'm a Lieutenant, so I have to 15 know. 16 : So were - did you hear 17 anything about him either trying to commit 18 suicide or his cell mate attempting to kill 19 him? 20 : I don't recall. 21 : So what is it that you 22 recall from it? 23 : I just know I - you know, you 24 read in this day chart that he tried to hang 25 himself and I looked at the 583, I looked at EFTA00059711 42 1 the pictures, saw the pictures. 2 : So your understanding -- 3 4 : -- was that he tried to 5 hang himself. 6 : Yes. 7 : Had you -. 8 : And his bunkie, you know, I 9 guess called out or whatever. They went - 10 they, you know, or 11 whatever, she did what she had to do. He was 12 on suicide watch the next day and, you know, 13 that was pretty much it. 14 : And what -. 15 : You know, I don't recall 16 everything, you know, it's - I - you read it 17 briefly, but I was -. 18 : So, do you know what 19 happened with his cell mate? Did he remain in 20 the SHU? 21 : Yeah. 22 : Did he get placed with 23 another cell mate? 24 : Oh, I don't remember. 25 : Are inmates in the SHU EFTA00059712 43 1 required to have cellmates when they're in the 2 SHU? 3 : Yes. However, there's 4 exceptions because some of them you can't house 5 them with nobody. 6 : And is that because they 7 would get harmed if they were housed with 8 someone? 9 : Yes. 10 : And is that what - is 11 that part of what 10 South Lower is for or is 12 that - it's just regular SHU, the inmates know? 13 : Just like some have on their 14 door, "Housing rec alone," because they could 15 have multiple steps. Some of them, you know, 16 they could be fear for their life. You always, 17 you know, you have that, but we try to bunk up 18 everybody. 19 : All right, so aside from 20 these special exceptions, inmates are supposed 21 to have -. 22 : Yeah, we try to bunk everybody 23 up. Yeah. 24 : Now is that policy or 25 just a decision that was made? EFTA00059713 44 1 : No, that's something that, you 2 know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did 3 that, because once you knew individuals receive 4 - you can't - policy states that you're not 5 supposed to have an AD, Administrative 6 Detention person and a person that's under 7 disciplinary segregation together, housed 8 together. It's supposed to be separate. 9 : Okay. 10 : That's the policy that they 11 that's 5270, you know, point whatever the new 12 number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program 13 statement. When Psychology says that this 14 person tried to harm themselves, we make sure 15 that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know, 16 they have a companion or somebody in there that 17 they could talk to so that, you know, they 18 don't feel despondent, you know. SHU is a 19 place, you know, if you don't check on these 20 inmates, you know, they're going to remind you. 21 : Right. 22 : So, you know, you've got to 23 make rounds, you've got to check on - be 24 checking on these inmates. You've got to be 25 seeing what they're doing, you know. It's a EFTA00059714 45 1 tough place. 2 : Yeah. 3 : You know. 4 : So, inmates that aren't a 5 special situation should have a cell mate and 6 especially inmates that are coming back from 7 suicide watch -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- they, in particular, 10 should have a 11 : Should have a cell mate. Yeah. 12 : Okay. It says, "- 13 recalls interaction with Epstein on watch. 14 Epstein stated, `I don't want to be here and 15 I'm going to hurt myself.'" He said that to 16 you? 17 : I don't recall saying that. 18 : All right. So again, it 19 says, " recalls interacting with Epstein on 20 watch. Epstein stated, `I don't want to be 21 here and I'm going to hurt myself.'" 22 : I'm -. 23 : You don't believe that's 24 accurate? 25 : I'm not going to hurt myself. EFTA00059715 46 1 : Oh, not going to hurt -. 2 : Oh, no, sorry, "I'm not - 3 - 4 : Okay. 5 : -- going to hurt myself." 6 : I don't remember him saying 7 that. 8 : So, okay, so did he say 9 that, "I don't want to be here and I'm not 10 going to hurt myself?" 11 : Yeah, he said that to me. 12 : He did tell you that? 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. 15 : But a lot of inmates say that, 16 you know, "Oh, I'm not going to hurt myself." 17 They look you right in your face and like, 18 "Yeah, and those markings on your neck say 19 something totally different." 20 : So would have that -- 21 : But -. 22 • -- would have he said 23 this to you after he came back from suicide 24 watch -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059716 47 1 2 3 : -- the second time -- : Yeah. : I'm assuming? 4 : I mean, because I escorted him 5 to attorney conference, you know, I'm the one 6 I had interactions with him, you know, he 7 talked to me or whatever, you know. No special 8 privileges, you know. But I treated him like I 9 treat anybody else, as a decent human being. 10 : Okay. Was he telling you 11 this though so that he wouldn't be housed with 12 another inmate? 13 : I don't think that. 14 15 SHU? 16 : Yes, he wanted to get out of 17 SHU. 18 : And where did he want to 19 go? 20 : He wanted to go, I guess, to 21 general population. 22 : Did he ever say that 23 that's where he wanted to go? 24 : Yeah. 25 : He did? : Did he want to get of the EFTA00059717 48 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : He said he wanted to go 3 to general pop? 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : Okay. It says, " 6 also remembers feeding Epstein. The BOP 7 psychologist said that Epstein must be housed 8 with a cell mate when he returned to the SHU." 9 And this is after the July 23rd incident? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. So, he came back 12 to the SHU, do you recall, around like July 13 30th? 14 : When he - whatever day he came 15 back to the SHU, he came back. 16 : And then that -- 17 : And -. 18 : -- around that date is 19 when the psychologist said he's got to be 20 housed with a cell mate? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. provided 23 cell mate recommendations but they were still 24 deciding on an individual when left the 25 institution that night. called to ensure EFTA00059718 49 1 that he received a bunkie. BOP decision makers 2 chose Efrain Reyes." 3 : Yes. 4 • ` remembers Epstein 5 requesting to make a phone call to his 6 daughter. doesn't do phone calls because 7 he is unaware of every inmates restricted 8 contact list." 9 : Yeah. I don't make phone 10 calls. 11 : Okay. 12 : That's the unit team. 13 : All right. We're going 14 to go back to Reyes. 15 : Or if somebody tells me I have 16 to make it directly - my direct supervisor 17 says, "Hey, give this guy a telephone call," 18 then that's something totally different. 19 : All right. So after - so 20 you said around July 30 -- 21 : Uh-huh. 22 : -- 2019, you were 23 informed by psychology, " needs a cell 24 mate," correct? 25 needs a cell mate? EFTA00059719 50 1 2 a cell mate." 3 : No, sorry, "Epstein needs Yeah. They sent an email, 4 something or -. 5 : Right. And -. 6 : I know the Captain and the 7 warden, they was like, "He has to have a cell 8 mate." 9 : And told you that? 10 : Yeah. 11 : And then what did you do 12 with that information? Did you provide it to 13 everybody that work in the SHU? 14 : Yes. 15 : All right, now, can you 16 tell me a little bit about how did the people 17 that work in the SHU know that Epstein was 18 required to have a cell mate? 19 : Okay. I passed it on to my 20 0IC, which was 21 : And can you - do you know 22 how to spell that name? It might be on there. 23 : It's - I do know how to 24 spell it, he's my friend. 25 EFTA00059720 51 1 : Is it 2 3 : Is it 4 : Yeah, something like that, 5 yeah. 6 : Okay. So, 7 : I don't know the spelling for 8 sure. 9 10 : I should know how to spell his 11 name, I just got brain fart. 12 : Okay. So if you told 13 him, did you tell anyone else directly? 14 : No, I spoke to him. He's the 15 one that, you know, he was on the desk. 16 : And then, did you inform 17 others though that were in there, that, A, 18 Epstein needs a bunk mate? Cell mate? I mean, 19 not talking about this a special time, I'm just 20 saying like, were they aware? 21 : I spoke to him. If I call you, 22 then you pass along that information. I spoke 23 to , he wrote it down, I verified it. 24 The next day when I came to work, he had a 25 bunkie. EFTA00059721 52 1 : Yeah, yeah. 2 : The bunkie was there and we had 3 postings up around, "This individual needs a 4 bunkie." 5 : Okay. Great. Can you 6 speak to me a little about that? 7 : Okay. 8 : You said there were 9 postings within the SHU that -. 10 : On the door, on the desk, on 11 the OIC desk, there was - I believe there was 12 postings that he was supposed to have a bunkie. 13 : So on the OI 14 : It was written. 15 : On the OIC desk, there 16 was a - or what door was there a sign? 17 : On his cell door. 18 : So Epstein's cell door, 19 there was a posting saying, "Epstein is 20 required to have a cell mate?" 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. And do you know 23 who - if that - did that remain up until you 24 left on August 8th? 25 : No, because he was on suicide EFTA00059722 53 1 watch. Then it was taken off. He was placed 2 with Reyes, and was in the cell, so I don't 3 recall - after I left that day, I don't know 4 what, you know - everything was in place. 5 : Yeah, no, what I'm saying 6 is that prior to leaving, I'm wondering if the 7 people that worked in the SHU, because 8 obviously as you know Reyes left on the 9th and 9 you weren't there. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 : But did the people that 12 were in there - I want to know if the people 13 who were in the SHU 14 : My crew, whoever worked - we 15 had a skinless crew. You could see who worked 16 day watch. 17 : Sure. 18 : Right? You can see who worked 19 evening watch. Okay? The people that were 20 there August 9th, I can't, you know, vouch for. 21 Okay? But everybody knew that was part of the 22 SHU crew -- 23 : Okay. So can you look at 24 -. 25 : -- and not everybody on this EFTA00059723 54 1 list was, you know, is - these is fill ins. 2 It's not their assigned post. 3 : So can you tell me who on 4 the SHU day watch crew of August 9th, who was a 5 regular and who would have known that he was 6 required to have a cell mate? 7 was there, he knows. 8 He worked - he was SHU 3. knew, he was 9 Rec Specialist. knew. 10 : Who is 11 , he's the number one. 12 : So who then on that 13 didn't know? Or you don't know if they know. 14 : I don't know. I mean, 15 everybody - once the OIC knows and the crew, 16 everybody -. 17 : So is it kind of like the 18 military? You're the officer, you tell your 19 head Sergeant, "Make sure everybody knows 20 this," that Sergeant is then therefore 21 responsible for telling everyone else? 22 : Yes. 23 : So, do you recall having 24 conversations with these people as well though? 25 : No, because they don't - EFTA00059724 55 1 everybody -. 2 : So it's 3 I spoke - the day that he was 4 required to have a bunkie, I spoke to -. 5 : Sure. 6 took care of it from 7 there. All I know, when I came in, I checked, 8 he had a bunkie, that was it. 9 : And I understand this. 10 But what 11 : And so, I cannot explain for 12 another shift. I cannot explain - only could 13 tell what did. I don't know what anybody 14 else did after I left. I don't know. I cannot 15 answer that. 16 : Right. So like you were 17 saying, he was housed with a bunkie on July 18 30th. What we're asking is that between July 19 30th and between August 9th, the days that you 20 were there, were you conversing with these 21 people to remind them that he was required to 22 have a cell -. 23 : It wasn't nothing to talk about 24 because everybody knew. He wasn't by his self, 25 so he has a bunkie so -. EFTA00059725 56 1 : Right. But isn't it true 2 that the - at the MCC, inmates are constantly 3 coming in and out? It's more of a jail than a 4 prison? 5 : Yes. But one thing don't have 6 nothing to do with - if we're working every day 7 together, I don't - why am I keep telling you 8 the same thing every day? I don't have to tell 9 you your job to what you're supposed to do 10 every day. I've got to keep reminding you to 11 feed? I have a billion other things to do. 12 : But - but -. 13 : So what you're saying to me, I 14 cannot answer that because I don't know. 15 : So, what we're asking is 16 did you have conversations with anyone on those 17 other days about the reminder that Epstein is 18 required to have a cell mate? 19 : I had a conversation with the 20 crew and I don't keep repeating myself. He has 21 a bunkie. Every day I come in, I check, he's 22 got a bunkie. What is there to talk about? If 23 it's way down 24 : What we're asking is -. 25 : I don't know - I don't under-. EFTA00059726 57 1 : You're saying that you 2 had a conversation with the one man who was the 3 Officer in Charge. What I'm asking you is, did 4 you have a conversation with anyone else aside 5 from him? Between July 30th and August 9th, 6 did you have any conversations 7 : I don't recall. 8 : -- with anyone -- 9 : I don't recall. 10 : -- other than the Officer 11 in Charge. 12 : I don't recall. 13 : Okay. So you said that 14 there was a sticky that was on the door. Was 15 the sticky only on the door on July 30th or did 16 it remain on the door from July 30th to August 17 8th? 18 : It remained up there, it was on 19 the desk. 20 : Okay. 21 : A big sign that said, "Epstein 22 is supposed to have a bunkie," on the desk, on 23 the officer's station. 24 : And that stayed on there 25 throughout -. EFTA00059727 58 1 : I guess, I don't know. It - 2 all I know, when I left, everything was in 3 place. I'm not there right now. Things could 4 change. I don't know. I cannot answer that. 5 : What Agent Dennis is asking 6 is -. 7 : Where were you sitting 8 when you were in the SHU? Is there a special 9 place for you? 10 : I sit in like on next to 10 11 South. 12 : Okay. So are you not 13 with the correctional officers? 14 : No. 15 : All right. And how -. 16 : I come down, I make rounds. 17 : So you're not sure if - 18 so you know that on July 30th there was this 19 Posted = note saying that Epstein required a 20 cell -- 21 : Yes. 22 : -- cell mate. Are what 23 you're saying is that you don't know if that 24 sticky note stayed on that after he was issued 25 some -. EFTA00059728 59 1 : It was there when I was up 2 there on the 8th. 3 : That was my question. 4 Okay. 5 : Yeah. It was something was 6 written -- 7 : So -. 8 : -- that Epstein should have a 9 bunkie. It was something on the desk, yes, 10 there was something there. 11 : And that was the 12 question. 13 : On the 8th. 14 : So, on August - so from 15 July 30th basically to August 8th there was 16 something on the desk saying, "Epstein is 17 required to have a cell mate." 18 : Yes. 19 : Perfect. 20 : Oh, okay. 21 : Okay. And is that the 22 same thing for the sticky that was on the door? 23 : I don't recall. 24 : The door your don't 25 recall. That's fine. EFTA00059729 60 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : Now, does everybody have 3 access to that desk? Would everyone 4 : Yes. 5 : -- that works in the SHU 6 -- 7 : Yes. 8 : -- would they see? 9 : Yes. 10 : So everyone would see 11 that there's a sticky note -- 12 : Right there, yes. 13 -- right there on the 14 : Uh-huh. 15 • • Officer in Charge's 16 desk saying, "Epstein is required to have a 17 bunk mate." 18 : Uh-huh. 19 : Therefore, most everybody 20 in the SHU should know because they should see. 21 And now, are there a lot of sticky notes? 22 : No. 23 : So -. 24 : That one, I think - I forget, 25 maybe it was done on colored paper. It was - I EFTA00059730 61 1 know it was on the desk and it was on the 2 bulletin, you know -- 3 : Got a bulletin board? 4 : -- right there. Yeah. 5 : Okay. 6 : On, like on the wall, like 7 right there. It was there. So, but, like I 8 said, you know, up until the time I left, I 9 don't know. 10 : Yeah, I understand that 11 you don't -- 12 : And -. 13 : -- know what happened -- 14 : And - and -. 15 : -- after you left. 16 : And the crews change, right? 17 We're very short on correctional workers. 18 We're very short. Sometimes it was just me up 19 there. I'm quite sure you all looked at all of 20 these rosters. Sometimes it was just me and 21 and 22 : Sure. And I'm just 23 trying to get - I'm just trying to understand. 24 : So, I don't remember 25 conversations, daily conversations that I had EFTA00059731 62 1 with people every, you know, day. All right? 2 We knew, the Lieutenants knew, everybody knew, 3 you know, you come from suicide watch, you have 4 a bunkie. 5 : Right. So is everybody 6 that's working the - should everyone that's 7 working in the SHU should they know that? 8 : Yes. 9 : Should everyone that was 10 working in the SHU known that - if Epstein's 11 cell mate was removed, he should be housed with 12 a bunkie? 13 : Yes. 14 : Right. Okay. 15 : Yes. 16 : So -. 17 : But, however, you don't know if 18 he's been removed. We don't know. 19 : Once it's told. So once 20 they find out Reyes is gone, he's not coming 21 back -. 22 : He should have had a bunkie. 23 : And should have the SHU, 24 people that were working there known? 25 : They know - EFTA00059732 63 1 : They knew, "We need to 2 tell the Lieutenant," - not you. 3 : Yeah. 4 : "We need to tell whoever 5 the Lieutenant is on duty, the Ops Lieutenant, 6 the Activities Lieutenant," whoever is their 7 chain of command, "We've got to let them know 8 Reyes is gone, he needs a bunkie." 9 : Yeah, he needs a bunkie, yeah. 10 : Okay. So that's how it 11 should have happened and the people that were 12 there should have done that. And I'm not 13 saying that they didn't. I'm just asking if 14 that's what they should have done. 15 : I guess. Yeah. 16 : Could those people that 17 were working in the SHU, did they have the 18 authority to be able to reassign Epstein a 19 bunkie? 20 : Yes. 21 : So -. 22 : Until the next day or whatever, 23 yeah, everybody has - can do - any officer can 24 do that. 25 : So even with Epstein, EFTA00059733 64 1 they could have just put somebody in there? 2 : No, you've got to check first. 3 : So who -- 4 : You've got to -. 5 : -- would have they 6 checked with? 7 : You check and see if he - you 8 know, if he has a separation from this person, 9 you see if this person - you look at their file 10 and you look at 11 : So they check in the 12 system to see if there's any kind of warnings 13 or -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : -- issues -. 16 : Predators or anything like 17 that. 18 : Sure, but do they need to 19 check with a Lieutenant first before -. 20 : No, they can check, any 21 officer, they have access. 22 : Okay. 23 : And if they don't, they should 24 call the Lieutenant and say, "Hey, LT, such and 25 such," yeah. EFTA00059734 65 1 : Okay. So were they - but 2 because I'm assuming as you know, and I don't 3 think we discussed this, that - oh, we did. 4 The inmates that were with Epstein were vetted 5 by the high, you know 6 : The higher-ups, yes. 7 : -- the Warden, the 8 Captain 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : -- and possibly -- 11 : Uh-huh. 12 -- the Regional Director. 13 So even though those were vetted, could have 14 the SHU correction officers, or at least 15 temporarily, placed Epstein with a different 16 inmate? 17 : Yeah. 18 : They could have still 19 done that? And they would have been 20 authorized? Okay. They wouldn't have had to 21 check with the Office Lieutenant, say, "Get 22 with the Captain." 23 : I mean, I would have did it. 24 : Okay. 25 : That's what my - if he needed a EFTA00059735 66 1 bunkie -- 2 : Uh-huh. 3 or he would have been 4 somebody would have been watching him, that's 5 just me, but I'm different, you know. I do, 6 you know, I'm a forward thinker, so like I 7 said, I wasn't there. 8 : Right. And being a 9 forward thinker though, and that's where I was 10 asking, do you recall -- 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : having conversations, 13 "Hey guys, you know, you have to -" - you 14 already said that there was the note that 15 (Indiscernible *00:52:25). 16 : But everybody knows you come 17 from suicide watch - if that's the question 18 you're asking me - you come from suicide watch, 19 you have to have a bunkie. 20 : And does that last for a 21 certain amount of time? So for instance, he 22 came from suicide watch on July 30th. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : And -. 25 : Only up until you leave Special EFTA00059736 67 1 2 3 4 Housing, you need to have a bunkie. : Okay. So it -. : Unless, it's special extreme circumstances, right, where you cannot have a 5 bunkie, then we put you in a hard cell, okay? 6 : But in Epstein's 7 situation. Epstein, he came from suicide 8 watch, he doesn't have any special 9 : He doesn't. 10 : -- circumstances. 11 : Right? So -. 12 : So everybody knew that 13 : So -. 14 : -- he should have had a 15 bunkie. 16 : Everybody should have known, 17 yeah. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because that's BOP policy. You 20 come from suicide watch, you have a bunkie. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. 23 : So not only did 24 psychology send out an email, like you stated - 25 - EFTA00059737 68 1 2 3 4 : Uh-huh. : -- saying that he was required to have a bunkie, it's also policy that they have a bunkie? 5 : Yeah. That's from me walking 6 in the door, you know, you come from suicide 7 watch, you have a bunkie. 8 : Okay. It says, 9 informed -." 10 : So you can write that down, you 11 know, I mean, you know. 12 : No, no, I'm just - that's for 13 -- 14 : Yeah. 15 : -- me, right -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- for us to go check on it. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 : You wouldn't happen to know 20 the policy off-hand, would you? 21 : No. 22 : (Indiscernible *00:53:43). 23 : That's psychology. 24 : Okay. 25 : You know. EFTA00059738 69 1 : Okay. 2 : You can ask psychology. But, 3 all I know from the trainings and the things 4 that I've been in, you come from suicide watch, 5 you have to have a bunkie. That was from when 6 I joined the Bureau. 7 : Okay. So you actually 8 address this later, now on this next paragraph. 9 It says, " informed his direct 10 subordinate," and this is the Officer in 11 Charge. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : Can you pronounce his 14 name? 15 16 that Epstein 17 needed another bunkie. They were short-staffed 18 that day." And I'm assuming this is July 30th 19 20 : Uh-huh. 21 -- 2019. 22 replied with, `Lou, I got it.'" Does he call 23 you Lou? 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : Okay. "The next morning, EFTA00059739 70 1 he had a bunkie. Inmates receive bunkies when 2 they come off suicide watch. It's common 3 practice in BOP. This is clearly communicated 4 in suicide watch training. It's posted 5 throughout the area and it's also institutional 6 knowledge." 7 : Correct. 8 : Okay. So everybody 9 should have known. 10 : Yes. 11 : "Epstein had a bunkie on 12 8/8/2019. is unaware of anything other 13 than that because he wasn't working. Reyes was 14 Epstein's bunkie when left work. Epstein 15 was down in an attorney conference as well. 16 communicated the message regarding a 17 bunkie to . He didn't speak to anyone 18 else about it because he expected to 19 disseminate it to his subordinates. There were 20 no other emails or communications regarding the 21 matter. The message was spread by word of 22 mouth." Aside from what you said, there was 23 actually a Post It note on 24 : Yeah, but that's - the way 25 you're reading that, is like after, on the 8th, EFTA00059740 71 1 right, he had a bunkie and then didn't 2 tell nobody, you know, I'm just - that's not 3 correct. That's incorrect. 4 : No, no, no, so it -- 5 : You could -. 6 : -- says that you said 7 that he was to disseminate it to his 8 subordinates. It says - so what it means, I 9 think that -- 10 : When he first -. 11 : -- and I didn't write 12 this. 13 : Yeah. When he first - when the 14 first - when we found out that he have to have 15 a bunkie, when it was told to us, that's when I 16 spoke to 17 : Okay. 18 : And from that point on, he had 19 a bunkie. 20 : Right. So what they 21 wrote then next - and again, we didn't write 22 this. 23 : Yeah. 24 : That's why we're here -- 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059741 72 1 : -- to make sure that we 2 got everything right. 3 : Uh-huh. 4 : It says, "There were no 5 other emails or communications regarding the 6 matter." So I think what they mean is, you 7 didn't send out an email to anyone -- 8 : No, because -. 9 and you didn't 10 communicate with anyone else about it? 11 : No, because when I found out 12 about it, it was on the phone. 13 : Okay. So you're talking 14 about on 8/8. Okay. So you're saying 15 : On -. 16 : So -. 17 : What you mean, on 8/8? No, I'm 18 not talking about 8/8. I'm talking about prior 19 to 8/8. 20 : July 30th. 21 : That's prior to. On 8/8 he had 22 a bunkie, so it was nothing for me to pass down 23 because he had a bunkie. 24 : Yeah, I thought that's 25 why you - that's what you were talking about EFTA00059742 73 1 2 3 4 there was -. : No. It could - no. : Even those communications regarding the matter -- 5 : No. 6 : -- after 8 -. 7 : They was talking about leading 8 up to. 9 : All right. So what -- 10 : So, don't -- 11 : -- you're saying -. 12 : -- don't get it twisted, 13 because that's not -- 14 : So, I -. 15 : -- that's not how it's supposed 16 -- 17 : I was giving you -- 18 -- to be read. 19 : -- the benefit of the 20 doubt. 21 : Yeah. 22 : I was saying that you 23 didn't have any other emails, communications 24 regarding the matter after - from 8/8 to 8/9. 25 : Well, I'm not. EFTA00059743 74 1 2 3 : So what you're saying is, "No, no, no, I didn't have any communications with him about it at all," from July 30th to 4 8/9? 5 : After I left on the 8th, he had 6 a bunkie. 7 : And that's what I'm 8 saying. 9 : Yes, he had a bunkie. 10 : Yep. 11 : So, it was - what else is there 12 to talk about? He has a bunkie. So, if he 13 doesn't have a bunkie, right, he should have a 14 bunkie. I wasn't there those other days, so I 15 don't know. 16 : Can I ask a question? 17 : Yeah. 18 : The instructions you gave 19 was it the day that Epstein came back 20 from suicide watch? 21 : Yes. 22 : And that would be July 30th, 23 just -- 24 : Yes. 25 : -- according to the data. EFTA00059744 75 1 : Yes. 2 : Past that date, right, you 3 already mentioned past that date, did you have 4 any individual conversations with anyone or 5 send any emails from July 30th to August 8th, 6 your last day? 7 : No, because 8 : Okay. 9 : -- psychology sent out the 10 email. Why am I - people don't even read their 11 emails. So, emails - if it's not documented, 12 it's not out, how are you going to know? What 13 if you don't have access to your computer? A 14 lot of people don't have access to their 15 computers. They say, "Oh, I left my Ply card 16 at home. Oh, can I get an override?" You have 17 some Lieutenants that can't even give 18 overrides. 19 : I got -. 20 : I wasn't there. 21 : I get -. 22 : So I don't know. 23 : You said psychology sent out 24 the instructions. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059745 76 1 : You -. 2 : Psychology sent the email out. 3 : So -. 4 : On July 30th, correct. 5 : Or whenever they sent it out. 6 You all have the email, you have all of that 7 documentation. 8 : Did you get any verbal 9 instructions from anyone above you about this? 10 : Yeah, from the Captains. I 11 spoke to 12 : And what did the Cap- what 13 did tell you exactly? 14 : He said, "Hold on, the Warden 15 wants to make sure that he has a bunkie." So I 16 stayed there past my time, or whatever, to make 17 sure, you know, that he had a bunkie and when 18 they vetted whoever they vetted, and they said, 19 you know, what it was going to be, that's when 20 I spoke to , he said, "I got it." He 21 said, "The Warden, I spoke to them, I got it, I 22 got you." That's it. And the next day I came 23 he had a bunkie. 24 : And you said that back - you 25 relayed that information back to EFTA00059746 77 1 knew, he was there. 2 : Okay. Did give you 3 any other instructions along with, "Hey, make 4 sure he has a bunkie." Did he tell you, "Hey, 5 listen, let me know if this inmate gets moved?" 6 : No. 7 : Did he -. 8 : If he - if the inmate got 9 removed from the cell, I would know. But I 10 wasn't there so I cannot answer that question. 11 : No, no, but I -. 12 : So this is the point of 13 our conversation, you weren't there so we need 14 to know, who knew what. 15 : I -. 16 : Who knew -. 17 : Who -. 18 : Who knew about -. 19 : The Captain knew 20 : Yes. 21 the Warden knew that he had 22 to have a bunkie. Psychology knew. 23 But unless - how are they 24 going to find out unless someone tells them? 25 : And all of the officers knew EFTA00059747 78 1 that Epstein is supposed to have a bunkie. 2 That's what you want to hear? That's what 3 everybody is supposed to have. 4 : Exactly. And that's -- 5 : So -. 6 : -- all we're asking about 7 is how did they know? You said that everyone 8 knew 9 : It was passed -. 10 : -- per (Indiscernible 11 *00:59:54). 12 : It was passed down. It was 13 sent - an email was sent out and -. 14 : The email wasn't sent out 15 to correctional officers 16 : It was -. 17 : -- it was sent out to 18 Lieutenants. 19 : Yes. And I passed it - and it 20 was sent out I think to the - oh, is 21 on there? I don't know. 22 : Okay. Let me look. 23 : Is this the email you're 24 referring to from July 30, 2019? I think some 25 of the SHU people may - they're second to the EFTA00059748 79 1 last or the last page. I think second - or the 2 page you're on now towards the bottom. 3 : Uh-huh. So it wasn't just sent 4 to the Lieutenants, it was sent to supervising 5 staff. 6 : Okay. 7 : It was sent to staff. 8 : SHU staff, correct? 9 is on there as a SHU 10 staff person, he got it. And like I said, 11 people don't open their emails. You see how 12 many people did not - even the Captain. 13 : Right. 14 : So, so hold on. What I'm 15 trying to explain to you is, it was spoken, 16 people knew that he was supposed to have a 17 bunkie. 18 : So, again, the reason why 19 we're asking you the question, we understand 20 now that this - we have this email and we know 21 who got it. 22 : I know why you're asking me the 23 question. 24 : We're just asking what -- 25 : And - and -. EFTA00059749 80 1 : -- you're the SHU 2 Lieutenant, what conversations did you have 3 with the people in the SHU about it? 4 : That Epstein is supposed to 5 have a bunkie. 6 7 8 : And that's what we mean. : Yes. : So you actually spoke to 9 people? 10 : Yes. 11 : Because before you just 12 said basically you spoke to 13 : I spoke to 14 specifically that he has a bunkie. 15 : Right. 16 : And then, when I'm at work, do 17 I talk to officers? Yes, he has to have a 18 bunkie. 19 : So you told anybody 20 working in there, yeah. 21 : Anybody that was working with 22 me on the days that I was working, knew that he 23 had to have a bunkie. 24 : And because you told 25 them. EFTA00059750 81 1 2 3 : Because I told them. : Okay. So everybody on -. : And it was posted. 4 : Perfect. And this is 5 what we're saying, you had verbal 6 communications with everyone saying, "Hey, man, 7 you guys know Epstein needs a bunkie." 8 : Yes, but not on those two days 9 because I wasn't there. 10 : Yeah, you didn't have 11 them on that day but the people that were 12 working there worked in the SHU prior to that 13 day. 14 : If they worked with me, they 15 knew he had to have a bunkie, yes. 16 : Okay. And that's where - 17 when we're looking at this, you weren't there, 18 so that's why we just need to know, these 19 people know. That's why we're talking about 20 this. 21 : I don't - if they worked with 22 me, with whoever, I don't remember who - every 23 day it changes who - daily it changes. 24 : Okay. 25 : Some people are on overtime EFTA00059751 82 1 working and I work. Okay? On the 8th, I 2 didn't work overtime. I went home. It was my 3 birthday. I went home. I wasn't supposed to 4 be there. I was supposed to be on vacation and 5 then I had military leave that weekend. I got 6 injured. So I don't know what you all are 7 trying to look for. I don't know what to tell 8 you. I don't know. 9 : So we're not trying to say 10 like that - so, here's the thing. You spoke to 11 anyone who was on the shift. What's your 12 regular shift. Regular -. 13 : 6:00 to 2:00. 14 : So, what about any SHU 15 employees that comes on shift after you leave, 16 how would they have known? 17 : The SHU 3 would know because I 18 would tell them, "Hey, yo, he need a bunkie, 19 Epstein would need a bunkie." 20 : And they -. 21 : And it's written. 22 : How would it -. 23 : We pass down - you pass down 24 information. 25 : Okay. So, and then the EFTA00059752 83 1 next paragraph is, " advised that 2 Correctional Officer Thomas and Corrections 3 Officer Noel know that inmates on suicide watch 4 are housed with a bunkie. If Epstein were 5 spotted alone in his cell, expressed that 6 it would have been reported to the shift 7 supervisor." Is that correct? 8 : It should have been reported to 9 the shift -. 10 : And both Noel and Thomas, 11 both, they should have known that Epstein was 12 required to have a bunkie. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. And do you recall 15 - and we'll just talk about those two, do you 16 recall or do you know how they would have 17 known? Did you have -. 18 : It would have been on the 19 computer. 20 : Okay. 21 : It would -. 22 : And they would have 23 : It would -. 24 : -- been sitting at that 25 computer? EFTA00059753 84 1 : At that computer, it would have 2 been on the desk. 3 : So would either of them 4 been sitting - so when someone is in the SHU, 5 especially if you're doing the shift that they 6 were where it's like 10:00 - I think it's like 7 midnight to 8:00 a.m. or 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 8 a.m. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : Would have they been 11 sitting at that computer where the - it said 12 Epstein was required to have a bunkie? 13 : Uh-huh. 14 : Yes? 15 : Yes. 16 : Okay. Great. Thank you. 17 And it says, "If an inmate left WAB." What's 18 W-A-B? 19 : W-A 20 : With all belongings or 21 something? 22 : Yeah, with - yeah, something to 23 that effect. 24 : Okay. So, " would 25 still expect his corrections officers to notify EFTA00059754 85 20 21 22 gone. 1 him of the vacancy." So, is that meaning that 2 being that Epstein left, would have you 3 expected that your officers had called you 4 while you were on leave and let you know? 5 : No, they - you would notify a 6 supervisor. A supervisor has rights to the 7 roster. We know who is leaving and who is not. 8 : Did you know that Reyes 9 was leaving? 10 : No. 11 : Is that normally cleared with 12 you the night before or -. 13 14 night before. 15 16 come in? 17 : After 4:00. The court list is given out the : What time would it normally 18 : And he wasn't on the list. 19 : I didn't see a court list. : Okay. : So I can't - you know, I was 23 : Should have they known 24 that he was going? 25 : Huh? EFTA00059755 86 1 : I think, wasn't it the 2 judge that decided as opposed to him -. 3 : Oh, I don't know. 4 : Okay. 5 : Because I wasn't there. I 6 don't know how he left the building. But, 7 inmates could go to court and not come back. 8 : It says, " noted that 9 they were short staffed. also advised 10 that Corrections Officer Thomas didn't receive 11 the training." So Thomas didn't receive, I'm 12 assuming the quarterly -. 13 : He works in another department. 14 : So the quarterly 15 training? 16 : Yeah, he works in another 17 department. 18 : But do you still believe 19 he would have known that he was required to 20 have a cell mate? 21 : I mean, he worked - I mean, 22 he's got more time than me in the Bureau. 23 : Right. 24 : So, you know, but he worked in 25 another department, you know. I can't account EFTA00059756 87 1 for what they should or should not have done - 2 I don't know. 3 : Yeah. But do you believe 4 that as a correctional officer as well as being 5 that the fact that that's the (Indiscernible 6 *01:07:16) -- 7 : I'll put it to you this way. 8 If I'm on or in Special Housing, I'm making 9 rounds, I'm checking, I'm looking in every 10 cell, I'm making sure that everything is up to 11 nut. If I see something wrong, I'm going to 12 say something, I'm going to correct it. Okay? 13 That's me. I was an OIC before I was a SHU 14 Lieutenant. Okay? I was an officer first, so 15 - and I was a damn good one and I was a damn 16 good Lieutenant as well. So, I'm different 17 than - well, I take the job serious. Like I 18 said, my integrity is on the line at the end of 19 the day. Okay? I know how this operates. I 20 know how the Bureau operates. And that's why 21 the attorney said what he said. From the top 22 down, we're going to put everybody on notice 23 and I understand this is an investigation, but 24 I was not there. I can't account for on Monday 25 morning quarterback, what anybody else does. EFTA00059757 88 1 Only can speak on behalf what I did. 2 : Yep. And that's why 3 we're just asking you about things that led up 4 to it. 5 : Yeah. Things that led up to 6 everything was done right. He was alive -- 7 : Right. 8 : -- when I was there. 9 : And that's -. 10 : He was alive when I left. 11 : But being that you're the 12 Lieutenant, SHU supervisor, we wanted to just 13 know what conversations and what directions 14 were they provided prior to you -. 15 : Everybody was given direction. 16 Okay? It was written, it was passed down to 17 the OIC when I got the word. When I got the 18 word, it was passed down and subsequently after 19 that, it was passed down to everybody that 20 worked. Not email, but mouth to mouth. 21 : Great. 22 : Okay? And it was written. So, 23 when even stuff you can post this now, people 24 will look at it and still do whatever they 25 want. EFTA00059758 89 1 2 do you know? 3 4 5 : Sure. Now who wrote it, : Who wrote it? : Yeah. : I believe did. 6 : Okay. So he's the one 7 who wrote it -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and put it on his 10 computer? 11 : Uh-huh. And he made the signs 12 and everything. 13 : And did he do it for his 14 own knowledge or did he do it so that everyone 15 would see? 16 : So everybody knows. i7 : Okay. 18 : Just -. 19 : So the purpose of it was 20 so that everyone -- 21 22 23 -• 24 25 knew. : So that everybody -- : -- that worked in the SHU : -- that came to Special Housing EFTA00059759 90 1 : Okay. Now when the SHU 2 conducts rounds -- 3 : Uh-huh. 4 : -- is there supposed to 5 be at least one Lieutenant per shift that 6 oversees a round conducted in the SHU? 7 : You're supposed to watch a 8 count, yes. 9 : A count, not a round? 10 : A count. 11 : Okay. So, at least - so 12 you do it. You're there on a day watch. Is it 13 also like on the, you know, the morning watch 14 and the night watch? 15 : This is what happens. In SHU, 16 right, in Special Housing, every shift, every 17 Operations Lieutenant is supposed to go to 18 Special Housing and make a round. 19 : Even during day watch. 20 : Even during day watch. 21 : And was that happening? 22 : Yeah. 23 : Okay. So when you -. 24 : I mean, if I'm day watch 25 operations, I make a round. But it depends EFTA00059760 91 1 because if - it depends on who is in SHU. 2 Like, I was the SHU Lieutenant, sometimes Ops 3 Lieutenants didn't come upstairs because I was 4 upstairs. 5 : Okay. 6 : It's my house. So, the next 7 Lieutenant will come upstairs. So I was 8 assigned for day watch because I was there, 9 there SHU Lieutenant. All right? That's 10 what's written, right? 11 : And that's policy? 12 : And that's - well, that's 13 what's written. Okay? Policy comes and goes. 14 The Captain or Warden can write - this can be 15 policy right now because they sent this out, 16 this is the policy. 17 : Right. 18 : Okay. I'm sorry. 19 : No, that's okay. 20 : They have to have a bunkie. It 21 was posted that he had to have a bunkie. Okay? 22 Like I said, each Lieutenant is supposed to go 23 to Special Housing. This - what, for midnight 24 count, 3 o'clock count, 5 o'clock count, right, 25 and the 4 o'clock count, each shift, a EFTA00059761 92 1 Lieutenant has to stand - do the count. 2 : Okay. So like, for 3 instance, on the 9th, would that mean that, so 4 for day watch, either or - or, no, 5 sorry, I mean or, I guess, earlier in the 6 day would be or later in the day 7 would do at least one count in the SHU? 8 : No. That was put later. 9 : Oh, so it was after he 10 left? 11 : Yeah. 12 : After Epstein died. 13 : Uh-huh. Yeah. 14 : What about - oh, okay, so 15 we're talk - sorry, everything we're talking 16 about is from the date that - August 9th and 17 August 10th where - where -. 18 : I don't know if they went to 19 Special Housing or not. 20 : Okay. So you're not 21 aware that -. 22 : I'm not aware. I don't know. 23 : So there was nothing in 24 place where as prior to - you're there August 25 8th -. EFTA00059762 93 1 : I know a Lieutenant has to go 2 to Special Housing every shift. 3 : Then I'm asking that 4 prior to August 9th, was that the policy? 5 : Yes. 6 : Okay. 7 : Every Lieutenant - not every 8 Lieutenant, but a Lieutenant, especially if the 9 book says the Operations Lieutenant, has to go 10 to Special Housing. 11 : So, per policy, on August 12 9th, whoever was like the - so there's a 4:00 13 p.m., there's a 10:00 p.m., there's a 12:00 14 a.m. At least one of them should have been 15 watched by -. 16 : Hold on. Day watch operations 17 -- 18 : Yeah. 19 evening watch operations 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- is supposed to make rounds 22 and morning watch operations supposed to make 23 rounds in SHU. Three Lieutenants are supposed 24 to go to Special Housing. 25 : I know, but what I'm - so EFTA00059763 94 1 I understand they're supposed to go there. But 2 when they're there, they're actually supposed 3 to conduct a count of the -- 4 : No. 5 -- inmates? 6 : No. That's the officers' job. 7 : So but that's what we 8 just asked you and you said 9 : No. 10 : -- "Yes, they were 11 required (Indiscernible *01:13:31) -- 12 : No, I said they're required 13 : -- (Indiscernible 14 *01:13:32)." 15 -- to go to Special Housing to 16 make a round. That's what I said. 17 : So is that round independent 18 of the rounds conducted by the SHU officers? 19 : The round is - you go up to 20 supervise the officers. You go up to Special 21 Housing. 22 : So what would -. 23 : Now, prior to Epstein, every 24 like I said, every Lieutenant is different. 25 When I go up to make a round, I walk the EFTA00059764 95 1 ranges. That's me. I can't account for 2 everybody else. I don't know what they've 3 done. I mean, I don't know. 4 : So -. 5 : I wasn't there. 6 : So what we're asking it, 7 up until August 8, 2019, were Lieutenants ever 8 required to monitor any rounds conducted in the 9 SHU by the officers or counts? 10 : Yeah, but it's a 30 minute 11 round thing. It's going to say Operations on 12 it, right? 13 : But -. 14 : You have the documentation 15 right there and it has three shifts on it, 16 doesn't it? Yes or no? 17 : But I'm not asking if it 18 changes. 19 : What are you asking me? 20 : Listen to the question. 21 If - is a Lieutenant required to go to the SHU 22 and watch the officers conduct either a round 23 or a count? Not just visit the SHU, but are 24 they supposed to watch them actually conduct a 25 round or a count? EFTA00059765 96 1 : That was implemented 2 afterwards. 3 : Okay. So up until August 4 9th, that wasn't - August 8th -. 5 : We did bed bunk counts. 6 : So Lieutenants were not 7 actually monitoring officers do rounds or 8 counts. 9 : Yeah. 10 : And there was no 11 requirement. 12 : Because we're required to take 13 a count. 14 : I know the -- 15 : So -. 16 : SHU staff is required 17 to take a count. 18 : It's - no, the Lieutenant is 19 required to take either the 4:00 p.m. or the 20 10:00 p.m. count. 21 : Okay. So, on August 9th, 22 a SHU - you're saying one of these Lieutenant, 23 either the - you're not there, so either the 24 Ops Lieutenant or the Activities Lieutenant -. 25 : What day is August 9th? EFTA00059766 97 1 Friday, right? 2 : August 9th is a Friday. 3 : So, is there a SHU Lieutenant 4 on there? 5 : No. 6 : No, there's no SHU 7 Lieutenant because you're not there. 8 So Operations is supposed to 9 : So Operation - 10 : Operations or Activities was 11 supposed to go to SHU. 12 : So it says, worked 13 from -" - and I don't know what a By - 0700 to 14 1500 or are they 0800 to 1600? 15 : I don't know whatever it say. 16 : All right. So 17 possibly was there until 4:00 p.m. Yeah, it 18 looks like that. It would be, he would be 19 there from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., and 20 would be there from 4:00 p.m. until 21 midnight. 22 : Uh-huh. 23 : So would it be that 24 would be at that 4:00 p.m. count or would it be 25 that would be at the -. EFTA00059767 98 1 2 : So would do both 3 the 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m.? 4 : He can either do the 4:00 p.m. 5 or the 10:00 p.m. He's required to do -- 6 : Oh, one or the other? 7 : -- one count. 8 : Okay. So, should 9 have been present for one count in the SHU on 10 August 9th. 11 : I can't say that. 12 : No, no. I'm saying 13 : He's required to take the 14 count, official count. 15 : So when you're saying 16 he's supposed to control and receive the count. 17 : Yes. 18 : What I'm asking is any 19 Lieutenant supposed to be in SHU -- 20 : No. 21 : -- that - okay. 22 : No. 23 : So -. 24 : That was afterwards that they 25 put out they wanted bed bunk count in SHU, you EFTA00059768 99 1 know, that was after the fact. 2 : Okay. So no Lieutenants 3 up until August 8th when you were there ever 4 had to be present for a count. 5 : No. 6 7 8 9 10 11 : Okay. : But before this : You said -. -- incident happened -- : Uh-huh. : -- was it policy that a 12 Lieutenant during this shift had to go into the 13 SHU and do one round? Not a count, a round? 14 : Yeah. That's - I said that. 15 : Yeah, but what he's 16 asking is, a round as in like getting eyes on 17 the inmates or do you mean just visiting the 18 SHU? 19 : Like I said, everybody's 20 interpretation of a round is different. I 21 cannot answer for another Lieutenant. 22 : Right. 23 : Only can answer for me. 24 : So how you did it. We're 25 asking -. EFTA00059769 100 1 : How I did it. Now you're 2 asking the question, how I did it. When I go 3 to Special Housing, I sign the book that I came 4 to Special Housing. I walk down the range. I 5 look at every inmate. I talk to every inmate. 6 That's when - talked to me. 7 : That's how you did it. 8 We're asking policy. Does policy - did policy 9 dictate that, for instance, should have 10 gone down during his shift and gone - did what 11 you would do? Talk to -. 12 : Every - like I said, every-. 13 : I'm just - I know 14 everyone is different but does policy say they 15 have to? 16 : No. No, it doesn't. i7 : Okay. So. 18 : It just says that you have to 19 make SHU rounds. 20 : Right. So in a -- 21 : Okay. 22 : SHU round, two - one 23 person could be just popping in, "Everything 24 good? You're good?" That could be somebody's 25 interpretation -- EFTA00059770 101 1 : That could be their round. 2 : -- of a round. 3 : That could be an interpretation 4 -. 5 : And others - another 6 Lieutenant could go and say, "Hey, I want to 7 conduct a count with you." And another one 8 would say -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- "No, I'm just going to 11 - I'm going to pop in." 12 : Everybody is different. Yes. 13 : Right. But policy never 14 said they needed to actually put eyes on the 15 inmates just to pop in and say, "Hi." 16 : Yeah. Where does it say it? 17 Show me. Because I -. 18 : That's what I'm asking. 19 : I don't - I never seen it. 20 : Okay. 21 : I never seen it. 22 : It's not a gotcha you, 23 we're asking -. 24 : No. 25 : We're literally asking -- EFTA00059771 102 1 : I know. 2 : -- you as the 3 (Indiscernible *01:18:22) -. 4 : I know because you don't know, 5 but I'm telling you, the 30 minute round sheet, 6 right, after, and even before Epstein, you 7 know, they had it - it was, we had them on the 8 ranges so the two can physically, you know, be 9 accurate with, you know, with what you had to 10 write, or whatever. They're printed sheets. 11 Right? The dates change. Some of them are 12 handwritten. Everybody's interpretation of a 13 round is different. I was an officer. I don't 14 forget my roots, so when I make a round, I make 15 a round. 16 : Does policy state what a 17 round consists of? Can I find that in policy? 18 : A 30 minute round? I mean, 19 checking on the inmates. It says in policy, 20 inmates that are in 30 minute - I mean, that 21 are in the continuous lock down situation, all 22 right, want to quote policy, are supposed to be 23 checked on every 30 minutes. Right? And then 24 the special policy says in Special Housing, 25 because they are continuously locked down and EFTA00059772 103 1 technically on morning watch, everybody is 2 supposed to go check on inmates. 3 : That description of rounds, 4 does that apply to a Lieutenant's round or is 5 that something different? 6 : That round applies - it doesn't 7 say, "Lieutenant," it just says that you're 8 supposed to -. 9 : What he's saying is that, 10 Lieutenant rounds, they're doing rounds with 11 their staff members and they can choose to go 12 in and do the inmate rounds if they want. Is a 13 correctional officer round is doing a round of 14 the inmates? 15 : Yeah, correctional officers 16 look at the inmates. So what you want me to do 17 as a supervisor for eight hours is sit with the 18 officer? 19 : No. 20 : No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm 21 just saying. If it got - see everybody - I got 22 to go around, see everybody, make sure I don't 23 people - make sure people are awake because if 24 I'm awake, you're awake. Okay, if I'm walking 25 around, I'm up. EFTA00059773 104 1 : We were just trying to get 2 (Indiscernible *01:20:33). 3 : No, no, no. I know. I just - 4 I'm just - I know that's what the policy 5 states. But everybody, like I said, their 6 interpretation of the policy is different, and 7 like myself, I'm checking on inmates. 8 Sometimes when I go in the housing unit, I want 9 to walk down the range. But do I walk down the 10 range of every housing unit? No. 11 : Is it ever acceptable 12 for, you know, even from the midnight to, you 13 know, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or midnight until 14 8:00 a.m., ever acceptable for any staff in the 15 SHU to fall asleep? 16 : No, it's not acceptable. 17 : And it's not acceptable 18 even if one staff says, "I'm going to sleep, 19 you stay awake." 20 : No, it's not acceptable. 21 : Okay. Not acceptable. 22 Great. 23 : Now, we are human. Right? So, 24 on occasion, "Hey, get up, go take a walk." 25 : But if both are -- EFTA00059774 105 1 : Throw some water. 2 : -- both are sitting there 3 falling asleep together, that's not -. 4 : Somebody got - that's - then 5 that's - hey, I can't -. 6 : Okay. 7 : You know. It's just like this. 8 I do hospital trips. I can't go to sleep. 9 Okay? Especially if we have one weapon on a 10 hospital trip. So you go to sleep and you got 11 the weapon, I'm dead. Or, we live in a world, 12 now everybody carries a cell phone, cha-ching. 13 : Yep. 14 : So, I just - I stood the watch, 15 I ain't sleeping. Stood the watch. 16 : Sure. You mentioned the 17 files that are printed out on Sundays and then 18 you would, you know, review in the mornings 19 : Uh-huh. 20 • -- but you weren't the 21 one that printed them out, on Sundays, they 22 would. We received information that when 23 Epstein was found on the 10th, they went to get 24 the file and the file didn't really have 25 anything in it. It's pos- with the indication EFTA00059775 106 1 that someone may have taken those files. Do 2 you know anything about that file being -. 3 : I know that that file was there 4 when I left. 5 : Do you know if it had -. 6 : That's all I know. 7 : Do you remember how many 8 documents were in that file? 9 : It was limited. 10 : So it was very little? 11 : Yeah. 12 : Only a few pieces of 13 paper then? 14 : Yeah. 15 : And was that because if 16 he was placed in the house - the SHU on the 17 30th, there's only one Sunday that went by 18 since he was found, I guess, on a Saturday, the 19 next - there's only one day that would have had 20 information in there? Would that be why it was 21 limited? 22 : Remember, he was in SHU from 23 the time that he got there, right? He was 24 taken out of SHU, he was placed with a bunkie. 25 He tried to hang himself. He went down, he was EFTA00059776 107 1 on suicide watch. I don't know how long he was 2 on suicide watch. But he was on suicide watch 3 and we got that email. And I got that email, I 4 got a call from the Captain, so the Warden. 5 Then I heard from the Warden looking for a 6 bunkie for him. You got to vet them and it's 7 not coming from me, it's coming from the top. 8 Okay. So I said, "All right," so I'm here. 9 was still there, the Warden was still 10 there. It was getting past my time I got to be 11 back in the morning, whatever. Spoke to - when 12 I got word, they said, "We got him a bunkie." 13 Spoke to , he said, "I got it." He 14 stayed overtime that day. So, him, Reyes, was 15 placed with Epstein. Every day, I had an 16 opportunity to speak with him. I - he was on 17 suicide watch. I took him up to attorney 18 conference. While he was in SHU, he would ask 19 me for phone calls. While he was in SHU, he 20 wanted rec or whatever. I said, "You can get 21 rec." Whatever he needed, and it was there 22 from the institution, he got. Whether it was 23 clothing, tee-shirt and boxers and shower, like 24 everybody else, and he was afforded all the 25 opportunities just like every other inmate. EFTA00059777 108 1 2 3 4 So, I don't know what else you all want to know. : So you said phone calls. So would he get phone calls when he was in the 5 SHU? 6 : He was - you're afforded to get 7 a phone call. 8 : So, where would you call 9 -. 10 : When the team gives you -- 11 : Where would -. 12 : -- his pin and pad number, or 13 whatever. 14 : Where would he be able to 15 call from? 16 : But - huh? 17 : Where would -. 18 : On the range. He would get it 19 on the range. 20 : Not in the SHU then? 21 : Yeah, in the SHU. 22 : That's where you plug it 23 into? 24 : Yeah, plug it in -- 25 : Now, would -- EFTA00059778 109 1 -- one of the jacks. 2 : -- would they be 3 monitored calls? 4 : Yeah. Absolutely. 5 : And then you like 6 document it 7 8 9 10 11 : Uh-huh. : -- in the log book? : Uh-huh. : All right. And then : Put it in the log book and then 12 it would be on the computer, you know, if the 13 call went through, whatever, and you can look 14 at the monitored calls. 15 : Back to the file. If 16 anything -- 17 : Uh-huh. 18 : -- that went on in the 19 should that have been documented in the file or 20 placed in the file, would that all be 21 electronically stored as well? So even if it 22 wasn't printed out, could we -- 23 : Only -. 24 : -- after the fact go in 25 and say, "This is what should have been in the EFTA00059779 110 1 file?" 2 : This is what you could do. 3 This is what you could do. You can go back and 4 ask them for the 583 packet that was created 5 when he first committed suicide. 6 : We have that, sure. 7 : Okay? There's - that's his 8 file. As this AD order, why he was placed in 9 SHU, right? 10 : But didn't you say you -- 11 : And -. 12 : -- document the food and 13 you document all that other stuff? 14 : The 292s, right? If it's not 15 printed, it might be in the system, but once 16 he's removed from the system, his BOP number, I 17 don't know what happens after that. 18 : All right. So, point 19 being is if he's no longer in the system, then 20 the file may no longer be in the -. 21 : Yeah. Just like if I go into 22 SENTRY and I will pull up his number, SENTRY 23 would tell me that he's deceased. 24 : But if he was still in 25 the system, should all the - whatever was in -. EFTA00059780 111 1 : He can't - because SENTRY and 2 BOPWare talks, it's live, it's almost like 3 live. 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : So the moment an inmate is 6 moved from one housing unit to another housing 7 unit, his picture is taken from that - he's no 8 longer on that housing unit no more. He's on 9 this housing unit. Right? And if he's placed 10 in SHU, the inmate picture still can be on the 11 file, but his location will show that he's 12 housed in SHU. 13 : But will all the 14 documents that were created in, you know, in 15 the SHU, would they all be maintained somewhere 16 in the system? 17 : Well, you could go back, I 18 don't know how long it is, but I know that I 19 had to pull records for an inmate that had left 20 prior to, or whatever. If it was documented, 21 it's probably still there, I don't know. 22 : Alright. 23 : But it may be in the system. 24 So, but that - it's some way you got to play 25 with the system to go back. It's like post EFTA00059781 112 1 292s or something like that, like when they 2 leave. Unit team can see whatever and can pull 3 it. 4 : You had mentioned that - 5 you were saying that Epstein was always 6 afforded clothing and things like that. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : So I guess in his cell, 9 he had an abundant amount of linens and 10 clothing in there. 11 : Well, I don't know. 12 : Now who was the one who 13 would provide the clothing? 14 : The officers. 15 : And would they - are they 16 supposed to maintain how much -. 17 : It's supposed to be one for one 18 exchange. 19 : Okay. So, if he's got a 20 lot of that stuff in there, that would be 21 something to talk to the officers about? 22 : Yeah. And sometimes inmates 23 hide it, you know, under the mattress or 24 whatever, but the officers would have to, you 25 know, they're supposed to shake it down, so. EFTA00059782 113 1 : And that's not something 2 that you were aware of? 3 : What do you mean? 4 : You weren't aware that he 5 had extra linens or clothing? 6 : No, I wasn't aware of that. 7 : Okay. 8 : Yeah. 9 : What about, so we 10 recently learned that Epstein was actually in a 11 cell that he wasn't assigned to when he was 12 found. So, about six days before, I think he 13 was moved to a different cell but they never 14 reassigned that cell to him. 15 : Because the cell rotation was - 16 they probably did cell rotations. 17 : Right. 18 : Moved him and his bunkie to 19 another cell and didn't key it. 20 : Now, who was responsible 21 for keying it? 22 23 rotation. 24 : The person that did the cell : Okay. So it's not like 25 the Officer in Charge or the Lieutenant, it's EFTA00059783 114 1 whoever did the cell rotation is the one that 2 would -. 3 : It's not the Lieutenant. 4 : Okay. 5 : It comes up, the next day I 6 check it, 21 day cell rotation. Before I 7 leave, I verify it and make sure that it's 8 done. 9 : So if six days before 10 August 9th, which would put us at like, you 11 know, August 3rd or something, he was moved but 12 the cell was never reassigned to him. Is that 13 something that you would have reviewed? 14 : He was moved when? 15 : We're told six days 16 prior, he was moved, but his - he was located 17 in a cell that wasn't actually assigned to him. 18 So the assumption is that, like you said, it 19 was a cell rotation but they never went and 20 keyed - you know the cell was never keyed to 21 him. He was still assigned to a different 22 cell. 23 : I don't know (Indiscernible 24 *01:30:50). 25 : All right. You don't EFTA00059784 115 1 know? 2 3 : Huh-uh. No. : Because I'm sure, as you 4 can imagine, the conspiracy theorists out there 5 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- are going to say like, 8 "Well, he wasn't in the cell he was assigned 9 to?" But you're not aware of that information? 10 : Naw. Huh-uh. 11 : But yet and - whoever 12 is anyone in charge of the cell rotation or who 13 is 14 : Well, the OIC, who - you know, 15 the day watch OIC is in charge, you know, of 16 making sure of cell rotations and things get 17 done. It's printed out daily to see on the 18 paper about cell rotations. Because the region 19 looks at that, you know, if somebody is in the 20 cell past 20 something days - actually, the 21 Captain is supposed to review and look at that, 22 you know. 23 : But you're -. 24 : But I look at it as well -- 25 : You look at it? EFTA00059785 116 1 2 Yeah. 3 : -- as the SHU Lieutenant. : And you never noticed it? 4 : If I'm running a roster, huh- 5 uh, no. 6 : You didn't notice that? 7 : Huh-uh. Because, I'm making 8 sure he got a bunkie. That's - if he - if it's 9 two people in the cell, I'm - you know. 10 : Right. 11 : And I get around to checking, 12 you know, it could have been a billion things 13 that I've been doing. 14 : Sure. 15 : You know, I was stretched thin. 16 You can look at those rosters and see how - me, 17 I'm supposed to be the SHU Lieutenant and 18 everywhere I worked. 19 : Okay. And as SH - no, 20 that's 21 : Go ahead. 22 • 23 24 answer. 25 : No, no, no. : No. You can answer - I'll : I was just going to say, EFTA00059786 117 1 you're stretched thin. What is your, like, 2 primary function when you're in there? 3 : When I'm in SHU? 4 : Yeah. 5 : I run the building, from SHU. 6 To, you know, just making sure - I try to make 7 sure that everybody is doing what they're 8 supposed to do. I'm checking on these inmates 9 myself and I'm making sure to keep this - 10 because it's already a stressful environment, 11 so I'm making sure, you know, people are 12 getting showered, you know, I'm making sure, 13 you know, I'm trying to, you know, we didn't 14 have rec for a long time, you know. At that 15 time, we had, you know, two rec officers. 16 Sometimes our rec officers are not there, you 17 know, and we're all helping each other, you 18 know. Showers was every Monday, Wednesday and 19 Friday, you know. So we're trying making sure 20 inmates got, you know, hygiene and things of 21 that nature is being taken care of. 22 : Okay. Back to that phone 23 call. That is authorized to let inmates in the 24 SHU have phone calls on unrecorded lines? 25 : Have to be approved by the Unit EFTA00059787 118 1 Manager. 2 : Okay. 3 : And that's only for legal 4 calls. 5 : Okay. 6 : And that has to be 7 : (Indiscernible 8 *01:33:46). 9 : -- you know, a request by an 10 inmate, then approved by the Unit Manager. I 11 don't do unmonitored phone calls. 12 : Oh, I'm sorry. I thought 13 you said that you would allow Epstein to call 14 from the SHU. 15 : No, I said, he would be 16 afforded a phone call, right, and it would be, 17 you know, he would have to have his pin and pad 18 number, not an unmonitored call. I don't do 19 that. 20 : But did he have a pin and 21 pad number? 22 : I don't know. His unit team 23 should have gave him a pin pad number. 24 : Okay. 25 : I don't know if he had it or EFTA00059788 119 1 not. 2 3 4 : But I thought -. : He never mentioned that to. : But I thought you said 5 that you would allow him -. 6 : No, I said, he would be 7 afforded. It's a difference. 8 : Because - yeah, you -. 9 : Don't switch the words. He 10 would be afforded, like everybody else that 11 comes to Special Housing, they are afforded a 12 phone call. 13 : So maybe is it wording, 14 because I had that written down too. 15 : No, (Indiscernible 16 *01:34:31) -. 17 : Because I think you said it 18 too. I think that's how -. 19 : Yeah. Because we talked 20 about it. Just, we got to make sure that we're 21 clear on these things. 22 : Yeah. 23 : So that's - do you recall 24 Epstein ever calling from the SHU? 25 : I never gave him a phone call. EFTA00059789 120 1 2 3 4 5 6 call. : Okay. : All right. : I never seen -- : Did you give this -. -- an officer give him a phone 7 : This is when we talked 8 about, you know, Epstein would want to make 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : -- phone calls. He would 11 want to have his clothing -- 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- and stuff like that. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : So, you actually never 16 gave Epstein a call. 17 : I never gave him a phone call. 18 : All right. Because -- 19 : Ever. 20 : I believe that's when 21 we talked about, what, did you just plug it 22 into the line in the SHU -- 23 : Yeah, that's what -- 24 -- and you said 25 -- happens but I never gave him EFTA00059790 121 1 a phone call. 2 : All right. 3 : Ever. 4 : And then we talked about, 5 would you just log it in the book? You'd 6 monitor their call. So never - you don't know 7 8 : I never gave him a phone call. 9 : All right. And the 10 clothing, you never gave him extra clothing? 11 : Not - never gave him extra 12 clothing, no. 13 : All right. And you were 14 in - did his cell ever get shook down or 15 checked? 16 : It should have, yeah. 17 : It should have? 18 : Uh-huh. 19 : And at that point, they 20 should have seen that there's a lot of extra 21 clothing and linens in there? 22 : They shake the cells down. 23 I've seen a lot of extra clothing and stuff 24 laying on the range. 25 : And were you ever present EFTA00059791 122 1 for any Epstein cell shake downs? 2 : No. 3 : No? 4 : Huh-uh. Well, you know what? 5 I was. I remember one of the officers say, 6 "Oh, he had this in the cell and they took it 7 out." Yeah. 8 : What did he have? 9 : I think it was an extra blanket 10 or something like that. They took it out. 11 : All right. And we he 12 authorized to have like pills and things like 13 that in there? Medication? 14 : Yes. They are authorized 15 Medical comes up and gives them medication. 16 : Are you aware of any of 17 the staff when you weren't present not 18 conducting counts and rounds -. 19 : Naw. Huh-uh. 20 : No? 21 : Not on my watch. What? 22 : Should we - so. 23 : Passing over to you. 24 Sorry, do you have a question? 25 : Okay. Yeah. Let's say you EFTA00059792 123 1 2 3 4 were at work on the 9th. You're not, but let's just say you were at work on the 9th. Reyes is taken out sometime between 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., he's brought to court. 5 : Uh-huh. 6 : MCC wouldn't know the fact 7 that, "Hey, he's not coming back," but somehow 8 9 : They would know after the 5 10 o'clock count. Perhaps. 11 : Let's just say, I'm just 12 saying hypothetically. 13 : Uh-huh. When the courts 14 return. 15 : Let's say between 1:00 and 16 2:00 p.m. -- 17 : Uh-huh. 18 -- MCC is notified, "Hey, 19 listen, he's not coming back and he's WAB." 20 : Uh-huh. 21 : Who would have got notified? 22 It would have came through -. 23 : R&D. 24 : R&D? And R&D would have 25 notified who? EFTA00059793 124 1 : They should have notified the 2 AW or notified their supervisor. 3 : Would they have notified the 4 OIC in the SHU? 5 : It depends on who's the 6 officer, I don't know. 7 : Okay. 8 : But they wouldn't be 9 required to let the housing unit 10 : They would -. 11 : -- where they came from? 12 No? 13 : After the court list comes out, 14 or whatever, the count changes on the El. If 15 they get - if the courts kept them, or 16 whatever, so whoever that R&D staff is, I don't 17 know what their protocols are, whatever, but - 18 because it's a whole different department but 19 we all work together. As a Lieutenant, only 20 way I would catch it on - probably on morning 21 watch or on - if I'm evening watch, when I'm 22 doing my log and I run the 38, the daily change 23 log, and depending on what I'm looking at, I'm 24 going to see who's off my base count. The 25 morning watch Lieutenant is going to write down EFTA00059794 125 1 2 3 4 everybody who left the institution the prior day. : I know. But I'm asking, let's say the notification did come between 5 1:00 and 2:00. 6 : Uh-huh. 7 : You are - let's say you were 8 at work 9 : Uh-huh. 10 and that notification came 11 down to the SHU and they were notified. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : If you were at work, what 14 steps would you have taken? 15 : I would have called the Captain 16 and, like, well, you know, his bunkie, you 17 know, has left and I would have let the Captain 18 know that we have to find him a new bunkie -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- and if they would, you know, 21 have somebody. 22 : You were not at work that 23 day, so -- 24 : No. 25 : -- who would have been in EFTA00059795 126 1 charge? Which Lieutenant would have been in 2 charge? Would that be 3 : If it's between 4 : Would it be the 5 Operations Lieutenant? 6 : If it was between one and two, 7 depends on - yeah. 8 : If was aware of it, 9 what should he have done? 10 : He should have called Special 11 Housing, "Hey, this guy need a bunkie." 12 : Okay. And -. 13 : But if Epstein was downstairs, 14 nobody wouldn't have known because he's with 15 his attorneys. 16 : But wouldn't have they 17 known the Special Housing Unit was informed 18 that Epstein's bunkie was being removed, 19 wouldn't that queue them in on that when 20 Epstein returns he's not going to have a 21 bunkie? 22 : That could have - that's 23 possible. 24 : Okay. 25 : Now let's say there were no EFTA00059796 127 1 notification ever made - let's just go through 2 the who process. When is the first time they 3 would actually catch the fact that Epstein 4 didn't have a bunkie? 5 : You make rounds, you make a 6 round, "Oh, shit, you're by yourself. Hey, but 7 he need a bunkie." 8 : So any one of the 30 9 minute rounds. 10 : Yeah. Uh-huh. 11 : So basically, if he came 12 back at, let's say, 7:00 p.m., by 7:30 they 13 should have known? 14 : Yeah. 15 : And certainly by the 16 10:00 p.m. count? 17 : Yes. Most definitely, because 18 it depends on - all right, the attorney 19 conference goes from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., 20 right? Attorneys can start coming in at 8 21 o'clock in the morning. So if he's down there, 22 let's say he went down 10 o'clock. Right? 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : And he's down there from 10:00 25 to 7:30 p.m., whatever that time. Then he has EFTA00059797 128 1 to be escorted back upstairs. Right? So after 2 8 o'clock, there's no more attorney visits that 3 they're, you know, they're gone for the day, 4 inmate goes back, he gets stripped out, he gets 5 placed in the cell. At that time, you see he 6 doesn't have a bunkie. 7 : Yeah, once he's escorted 8 back into his room, right? 9 10 11 12 : Yeah. : Into the cell. : Uh-huh. : As soon as whoever 13 escorted him -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : -- back to the cell 16 should have known, "Hey, I'm putting him back 17 in a -- 18 : He don't have a bunkie. 19 I'm putting this guy 20 back in a cell without anybody in here." 21 : Yeah. He doesn't have a 22 bunkie. 23 : And when you escort -- 24 : So -. 25 : -- somebody in the cell, EFTA00059798 129 1 you always verify who is in there. 2 : Yeah. Because you have to open 3 - you have to look and make sure somebody in 4 there because the inmates have to be cuffed. 5 : Okay. 6 : So he had to be cuffed or he 7 should have been cuffed, placed on the range 8 and when they crack that door, before they 9 crack that door to make sure somebody is in 10 there. If nobody was in there, somebody should 11 have got the horn and, "Hey, he don't have a 12 bunkie." 13 : So, at -. 14 : By the 10 o'clock count, it 15 should - yes. 16 : And at that point if, 17 somewhere between when he was escorted back and 18 10:00 p.m. -- 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : -- could have a new 21 bunkie been put in there with him? 22 : Perhaps, yeah. 23 : Just perhaps? Not 24 25 a hard cell -- Or he could have been placed in EFTA00059799 130 1 : Okay. 2 : -- by his self. 3 : But one or the other 4 should have happened? 5 : Yeah. 6 : He shouldn't have -. 7 : If I can't find a bunkie, he's 8 going in a hard cell until the morning. 9 : And should have the SHU 10 staff 11 : That's just me. 12 : But should have the SHU 13 staff known that? 14 : No, because I don't know if the 15 SHU was full at that time. I don't recall, you 16 know, because I didn't do a kick out list, so. 17 : Okay. So if there's 72 18 inmates in the SHU, is that full? 19 : Yes. 20 : That's pretty full? 21 : Yeah, it's full. And we have 22 down cells, so. 23 : But earlier that day it 24 was like 76 or 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059800 131 1 or something? 2 : Yeah, we were full. So, we had 3 the two hard cells, well, three, because we 4 have a suicide cell and they probably had a 5 housing rec alone, that's on J Tier and then 6 you got the two hard cells on H Tier. 7 : But regardless 8 : Uh-huh. 9 the SHU people from 10 7:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., that would have been, 11 it looks like , he was on from 4:00 p.m. 12 to midnight. 13 : Uh-huh. 14 : Somebody should have 15 notified or at least 16 : Uh-huh, that he was by his 17 self. 18 : And would it be one or 19 the other, or 20 : Well, the Activities 21 Lieutenant, if they went to SHU to make rounds, 22 or whatever, one of them - somebody should have 23 known. 24 : Okay. They should have 25 notified those people. EFTA00059801 132 1 : Yeah. 2 : What about the next 3 shift? So Noel and Thomas are on from midnight 4 to 8:00 a.m. When they know during their shift 5 that he is without a cell mate, should have 6 they notified someone? 7 : Yeah. Notified our Ops 8 Lieutenant, one of them. 9 : So they should notified, 10 in their case, who was the Ops 11 Lieutenant at that time. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 14 15 self." 16 : Okay. And -. : Say, "Hey, this dude is by his : Okay. And how serious do 17 you believe that to be that they're not making 18 notifications? 19 : What do you mean? 20 : So, I mean, obviously 21 someone died in this instance. Correct? 22 : Yes. 23 : Let's take that out of 24 it. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059802 133 1 : If they're in a different 2 situation, if they weren't making that 3 notification, is that serious? Is that a 4 serious infraction of policy or of, you know, 5 the correctional -- 6 : I mean -. 7 : -- duty assignments? 8 : Yeah, I mean, because, to me, I 9 had people that tried to hang themselves and I 10 work morning watch and I work evening watch. 11 I'm going to check on that individual and I'm 12 making sure they good. 13 : Sure. 14 : And I'm telling everybody, "Yo, 15 make sure you all are doing rounds because, you 16 know, not on my watch," and anybody will tell 17 you, I'm known for making big rounds, what you 18 doing? We doing big rounds, right? Rounds, 19 rounds, rounds, and we checking on inmates in 20 the Special Housing Unit. That's what I'm 21 known for. I can't account for anybody else, 22 but I know me, I'm checking on the individual. 23 : The last time you saw 24 Epstein 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059803 134 1 : -- what did you think of 2 his state of mind? Did he seem all right? 3 : He was a little nervous. 4 : Okay. 5 : He was a little nervous. But, 6 you know, he was just like, I was like, "You 7 all right?" "Yeah." And he looked at me, you 8 know. And he wanted to go to rec. Again, that 9 morning, he took a shower on Thursday and then 10 he went to attorney conference. 11 : Did he seem like - did he 12 give you any kind of indication that he might 13 be wanting to take his own life? 14 : Nuh-uh. 15 : No? 16 : He just was just, you know, 17 people have like a nervous feeling or whatever. 18 : Now, with a nervous, do 19 you have any reason to believe that he did not 20 take his own life? 21 : What do you mean? 22 : Someone else - 23 : No, nobody killed that man. He 24 did it himself. Nobody killed him. 25 : So you feel very EFTA00059804 135 1 confident about that? 2 3 4 be asked. 5 : Yeah. Nobody killed that man. : The question has got to : Yeah. Nobody killed him. 6 Listen, all the conspiracy theories, out the 7 window, okay? The man killed his self. Okay? 8 It's unfortunate that he did this and now, here 9 we are. But, you know, that's what cowards do, 10 you know? But I can't speak for him. He knows 11 why he did what he did. 12 13 14 : Sure. : But, nobody killed the man. : Could the officers that 15 were in the SHU see into Epstein's cell from 16 where they were seated? 17 : If he's standing at the window. 18 : No, no, I'm sorry, from 19 their desk area. 20 : Yeah, if he's standing at the 21 window, you can -. 22 : Oh, oh, oh, you mean if 23 Epstein is standing at the window. 24 : If Epstein is standing at the 25 window, you can -. EFTA00059805 136 1 : But otherwise, unless you 2 go up to the door, you can't see. 3 : Unless you go up to the door, 4 Nuh-uh. You can see if a light is on. But, 5 let me put this on record. The SHU is broken, 6 it needs to be fixed. Okay? Inmates control 7 the lights from the inside. Officers, they 8 just started now putting the lights on the 9 outside. Okay? We should be able to control 10 the lights. We should be able to flick the 11 lights on and look inside the cell. No inmate 12 should be able to press a button and look 13 inside the cell or disfigure the lights. 14 : So you don't have - you 15 didn't have the ability to actually turn the 16 lights on inside -- 17 : No. 18 : -- of their cells? 19 : No, there was a switch, but you 20 still couldn't - the inmate can press the 21 button and only one of the lights would come on 22 and if that light wasn't working, they you 23 can't see inside the cell unless you tell him 24 to get up out of their bed and put that light 25 on. Or if you have a flashlight, you know, EFTA00059806 137 1 you're flashing it in there. But, you know, 2 the cells are broken, man. They were supposed 3 to been change the cells. You know, they had 4 wooden doors for years, but not in SHU. You 5 know, they just - the range, our range, they 6 just did a couple of those doors. And some of 7 them was even falling off the hinges. 8 : Was there any 9 conversation that you recall when Epstein was 10 there of placing him into 10 South? 11 : Not that I recall. 12 : Do you believe he should 13 have been placed in 10 South versus the SHU? 14 : I mean, he's high-profile like 15 they said he was. Everybody else went up 16 there. So, you know, it was to me that he 17 would have been more closely monitored, but 18 that's not my call. 19 : And whose call is it to 20 place someone in 10 South? 21 : It's the Warden and the 22 Captain. 23 : And have you ever heard 24 that it's actually even over their head for 10 25 South? EFTA00059807 138 1 : No. Yes. That they said all 2 the inmates in 10 South are SAMS inmates. 3 : Right. And can you 4 explain what SAMS is? 5 : Special Security Measures, 6 something, you know, there's - you know, their 7 mail is handed - everything is by SIS and Unit 8 Team. A SHU Lieutenant. Anything that they get 9 comes from the SHU Lieutenant because we have 10 to keep - that's like, you know, they are - you 11 got to just make sure that they're ready to 12 stand trial. Like, I was there, you know, for 13 Juan Guzman, I was the SHU Lieutenant, and 14 nothing happened to him. 15 : What happened to him? 16 : Nothing. 17 : Oh. 18 : You know, he stood trial and he 19 was gone. 20 : Was he in 10 South? 21 : Yes. And all the other inmates 22 that was in 10 South under my watch. 23 : So Monday morning 24 quarterbacking, do you believe that Epstein 25 should have been in 10 South then? EFTA00059808 139 1 2 3 4 : Or on G Tier. : That's 10 South lower? : Yes. : Okay. Because they 5 basically accomplish the same mission. 6 : Those - yeah, because those 7 cells are hard because they're, you know, they 8 got plastic over the windows and everything, so 9 if you're going to try to do anything, you 10 know, it's really difficult. The shower 11 curtains that break away or whatever. Where 12 they can hang the towels, break away. 13 : Did you ever make that 14 suggestion to anyone? 15 : Did I make the suggestion? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : That's not my call. 18 : Yeah, yeah, I know, I 19 just didn't know if -. 20 : Naw, that's not my call. 21 : Sure. 22 : I only do what I'm told. 23 : Absolutely. 24 : You all want some water or 25 something, you got to use the bathroom? EFTA00059809 140 1 2 thank you. 3 : No, no, no, I'm good, : You sure? 4 : Positive, thank you. 5 : What else we got? 6 : I just one other question. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : I'm just going to show you 9 the midnight count -- 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- from August 10th. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : You just take a look at that. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : That front page is called the 16 El? 17 : Yep. 18 : What's the SHU count on that? 19 : 72. 20 : Can you take a look at the 21 count slip on the back page. 22 : The last page. 23 : You see the one for ZA? 24 What's the count on there? 25 : 73. EFTA00059810 141 1 : If you were the Lieutenant, 2 right, and that count slip came up, what would 3 you have done? 4 : I wouldn't have took it. 5 : Why? Because the -. 6 : The count is wrong. 7 : And what would you have done? 8 : Count again. 9 : You told them to count it 10 again? 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : Is there -. 13 : First, I would have - whatever 14 count that they called in, right? If I'm 15 taking the count, right? I'm the official 16 count person, okay? 17 : There should be like the 18 Ops Lieutenant I'm assuming? 19 : Uh-huh. You could take - but 20 they don't have to take the 12 o'clock count. 21 They could - he could take the 3:00 or the 22 5:00. 23 : Okay. 24 : But they have to take a count. 25 I'm different. I want to - there's times I'm EFTA00059811 142 1 even watch operations, right? I'm taking the 2 10 o'clock count, I'm taking the 12 o'clock 3 count. After the 12 o'clock count, I don't 4 have to worry about the count no more. I mean, 5 I have to worry about the count, but I'm making 6 rounds, I'm making sure everything is good. 7 Right? But I want to know what I got. This 8 number right here, is the number that I'm 9 concerned about. 10 : So if the Ops - 11 : 758 inmates. So if the ops, 12 what? 13 : So if the Ops Lieutenant 14 took that count at midnight -- 15 : Uh-huh. 16 should have they gone 17 down to the SHU and witnessed the new count? 18 : Naw, so it's only if it's a 19 double bad. 20 : Just a double bad. 21 : Yeah. 22 : One bad is not -. 23 : If it's a double bad. 24 : They don't need to get 25 eyes on? EFTA00059812 143 1 : Yeah. If it's the double bad 2 count, we got to go up with a roster, a bed 3 book roster and we, you know, we tell our 4 inmates, "Stand." At night, it's different 5 because you're supposed to see living, 6 breathing flesh. So we're not required to make 7 everybody stand. But I'm going, I'm looking, 8 we counting. That's just me. 9 : Okay. But there was no 10 requirement based on one bad count. 11 : Naw. If it's a double bad, you 12 have to go up - because sometimes they call in 13 the wrong number. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : But that's -- 16 : Have you ever heard of - 17 have you -. 18 : -- crazy. I've never heard. 19 : The (Indiscernible 20 *01:55:26) so 21 : You don't have to never worry 22 about me repeating jack. 23 : No. 24 : But this is crazy. 25 : Now, what if the person EFTA00059813 144 1 who called count into Control said that, "Hey, 2 I wrote down 73 on the slip, but one of our 3 guys is out of the unit, he's in another place, 4 but I still counted him." Does that make any 5 sense to you? What if they got - 6 : Yes, it makes sense to me, but 7 me as a Control Center officer, no, it's wrong. 8 : Right. And should have a 9 person - so say like -- 10 : So -. 11 : -- should have Noel or 12 Thomas known 13 : You want to know what I - damn, 14 I should not, oh my God. 15 : But should Noel or Thomas 16 known they shouldn't have written 73 if they 17 knew the number was 72 and one guy was 18 somewhere else? Should have they known that 19 the number was 72? 20 : You only - I'm going to put it 21 to you this way. You only write the number of 22 number of people that you have on the housing 23 unit. 24 : Okay. 25 : If you have more than the EFTA00059814 145 1 number that you have in the housing unit, that 2 means somebody is not where they're supposed to 3 be. If you have less than you have on the 4 housing unit, this tells me two things. 5 : What's that? 6 : Either -. 7 : Say it. 8 : There's nothing you can 9 surprise us with. 10 : Okay. Originally, it was 73 11 and that's the count that they called in. 12 Somebody realized, "Hey, this guy is not here. 13 Holy shit. Oh, he has - did we key him out? 14 Holy shit. We didn't key him out. Oh, key 15 that guy out." If that guy was keyed out, 16 let's say, I don't know, after 10 o'clock, 11 17 o'clock, when this was printed - this was 18 printed at 12:35, the computers don't come back 19 up until 12:30. After 12:30 you can log on the 20 computer and print if you want. 21 : Does this tell you that 22 they didn't conduct the count and they just 23 used the number that -. 24 : That says a lot of things. 25 : What does it say to you? EFTA00059815 146 1 : That says a lot of things. 2 That says a lot of things. But me, as the Ops 3 Lieutenant, I would have never accepted that. 4 : Now, if the Ops 5 Lieutenant said, "Create a new count slip and 6 send it in," would it make any sense that that 7 was still attached to this? 8 : What do you mean. 9 : So if the Ops Lieutenant 10 said, "Create a new count," -- 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : -- and they did a new 13 count and did one that said 72, would it make 14 any sense why this one that says 73 is still 15 attached? 16 : No. That one that says 73 17 shouldn't have been there 18 : And -- 19 because that's wrong. 20 : -- do you agree that the 21 people that are written there appears to be an 22 M. Thomas and a Noel? 23 : That's what it says. 24 : Just so we don't -- 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00059816 147 1 : -- want to ever have the 2 opportunity for someone to say we showed you 3 : Uh-huh. 4 different things, so 5 can you just initial and date the top of these 6 packets so that -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- it's just to show -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- what it is you looked 11 at? 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : Did he look at any of 14 this stuff? 15 : No, I was going to -- 16 : Yeah. I looked at this. 17 -- ask something, one more 18 thing too. 19 : I'll do it. You know. 20 : Is there a reason an inmate 21 will be moved to R&D that late at night? 22 : Nope. 23 : Is it -. 24 : When is typically the 25 latest somebody be moved to R&D? EFTA00059817 148 1 : Only way that they're going to 2 R&D, right, if they're going on the bus, the 3 bus is coming. 4 : Right. 5 : And that's normally on 6 Wednesdays. 7 : And what time would they be 8 moved to R&D? 9 : After the count and -- 10 : Which count? 11 nobody is moving. If 12 they're leaving at 3:00, after the 12 o'clock 13 count. 14 : But buses are almost 15 always around Wednesdays, correct? 16 : Typically, yeah. 17 : You would have no - want 18 to know what happened on a Friday night, 19 Saturday morning. 20 : Nope, no. Only people that 21 leave the institution on a Saturday morning, 22 and that's like they come at 8 o'clock, you 23 know, the special guys that go out in the, you 24 know, they're going to Saturday court. 25 : Okay. So that - there's EFTA00059818 149 1 really no excuse for that one right there. 2 : No. 3 : On this (Indiscernible 4 *02:00:20)? Okay. 5 : No. 6 : Just had one more. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : This is the 5:00 p.m. count, 9 I mean the 4:00 p.m. count. Can you just 10 verify that for August 9th? 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : If the call came in between 13 1:00 and 2:00 stating that Reyes - if you 14 notice under the SHU, ZA, you see the one out 15 count? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : If between 1:00 and 2:00 the 18 call came in stating that Reyes is no longer 19 going to be in the institution, if it did, 20 should that have reflected still as one out 21 count? 22 : Yeah, because he's out. 23 : But if they said that he's 24 not coming back and he's WAB. 25 : That's R&D. EFTA00059819 150 1 : Explain that. 2 : R&D is Receiving and Discharge. 3 We don't get notified. The courts notify R&D. 4 The Marshals notify R&D. R&D has a supervisor, 5 right? On shift, they have officers that are 6 on shift, so any movement, they know - would 7 know before I would know and so they have to 8 make the proper notifications and key in in the 9 system. 10 : That's what I was going to 11 ask you. 12 : Yeah. 13 : If R&D did make that 14 notification to the SHU and who else should 15 they have notified to get that correct? 16 : The CMC would - if the CMC is 17 there, you know -. 18 : What's the CMC? 19 : The Case Manager Coordinator. 20 Yeah. Case Manager Coordinator. 21 : Who would that be on - do we 22 have the schedule? 23 : Oh, I don't know who was the 24 : Okay. This is 25 : CMC at that time. EFTA00059820 151 1 : Office (Indiscernible 2 *02:02:07) if the notification was made. 3 : No, they won't be on that 4 roster. 5 : Okay. 6 : That roster is a custody 7 roster. 8 : Okay. 9 : So, like I said, R&D is a whole 10 total different department. The court speaks 11 to them. 12 : Okay. 13 : So when the courts talk to 14 them, then they talk to us. Normally R&D, you 15 know, if they're WAB or something like that, we 16 wouldn't know until you run the 38. 17 : What do you mean 38, meaning? 18 : The daily change log. Uh-huh. 19 : Do mind just -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- with these just -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- putting it the 6/15/21 24 -- 25 : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, EFTA00059821 152 1 yeah. 2 : -- and that's just so we 3 know that -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : -- not only you initialed 6 but the date of this. 7 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem. 8 : And then on this last 9 one, 4:00 p.m. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 : -- if you don't mind just 12 initialing it and dating as well. Thank you, 13 sir. 14 : 6/15/21. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : Is there anything else 17 you wanted -. 18 : That's it. 19 : All right. So that's all 20 we have for you. We just wanted to know what 21 you knew with the SHU and hopefully it wasn't 22 too painful. 23 : Naw, it wasn't. 24 : Anything else you want to 25 add for the record? EFTA00059822 153 1 : No. I'm just - I wasn't there. 2 So unfortunately, what happened, happened. 3 Everybody works different. I know there's an 4 investigation, but through all the conspiracy 5 stuff, everybody, the staff that was there when 6 they found him, they worked hard to try to 7 revive him and save his life. But, 8 unfortunately, you know, it turned to a sad 9 event. But we are very well understaffed. Had 10 we had more officers - I know everybody want to 11 point the finger, but it's an unfortunate thing 12 to happen, you know? You know, a lot of things 13 have to change in the BOP, you know, but, you 14 know, I only can be as truthful and honest with 15 you as I can, you know? 16 : On that note, you just 17 made me think of one more small question. You 18 said that they did work hard on saving his 19 life. Was it okay that Thomas immediately went 20 into the cell upon seeing Epstein in the state 21 that he was in or should have he waited? 22 : He made a decision. 23 : All right so was it - do 24 you -. 25 : I would have made the same EFTA00059823 154 1 decision. 2 3 : Okay. : You know, policy states that 4 you can enter a cell if you have, you know, 5 more staff, two or more staff. You don't need 6 an immediate supervisor if it's an emergency 7 situation. 8 : All right. So if 9 somebody is telling us that, "No," they needed 10 to wait for a Lieutenant to come down there, 11 that's not correct? 12 13 14 : No. It's in the policy. : Okay. : I know the policy. 15 : So you believe that it 16 was fine for Thomas to enter. 17 : Yeah, because I would have did 18 the same thing. 19 : Okay. 20 : Yes, there's plenty of times 21 where I've seen something, we had enough staff, 22 "Let's go in there," you know, and -- 23 : And they argued 24 -- safe a life. 25 : -- that it was like a EFTA00059824 155 1 ruse in order to overthrow, you know, that 2 guard or something like that. 3 : No. That's bullshit. 4 : You just said that. You've 5 seen the situation but you've said that there's 6 enough staff, let's go in there. You never -- 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- went in there by yourself? 9 : No. 10 : That's what he was -. 11 : Yeah, so I'm - Thomas 12 went in by himself if Noel is down range, he's 13 by himself. 14 : They both on the same range? 15 : Yeah, so if she's down, 16 not with him, he goes in by himself, is that 17 okay? 18 : It's one for one. And if he 19 says it's an emergency situation, he made a 20 decision. 21 : Right. 22 : I probably would have - if I 23 see somebody hanging, I'm making a decision. 24 : Sure. 25 : I'm trying to save a life. EFTA00059825 156 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : You understand? 3 : Yeah. No, I'm only 4 asking - yeah. 5 : No, the policy states, you 6 know, it's two to one, you know, two officers 7 to one inmate. Then they came and they said, 8 "One to one ratio," but they never really 9 changed it, that's word of mouth. But it's 10 always two to one, right? If you down range 11 with me, it's two to one. So if it's an 12 emergency situation and I've activated my body 13 alarm, I'm a go get you. Okay? Now, who 14 knows, he could have been faking a funk. Come 15 in there, he came in his cell and try to 16 escape. Now you got the keys, now your SHU is 17 compromised. So it's a judgment call. But at 18 the end of the day, I've been in situations 19 where two people in my career tried to commit 20 suicide. I saved both of them. Okay? One was 21 early, I think early this year, January or 22 something or late last year. Inmate tried to 23 kill himself. I was called upstairs. I didn't 24 wait. They said, "Operations to the Special 25 Housing Unit -" I mean, Special Housing. I EFTA00059826 157 1 didn't wait. I came upstairs ASAP. They let 2 me in and the dude was hanging. I did my 583, 3 I did my notification to the Warden, right? 4 Did they thank me? No, she sent me a personal 5 email like three days later. You know who did 6 it, I did, but it's okay. I'm there for 7 officers. I'm there to save lives. I did my 8 job. Prior to that, I still had a guy, a young 9 man who was in the newspaper, gang member. 10 Okay? I saved his lift. He was hanging on J 11 Tier in a suicide cell, tried to hang himself. 12 We went in there, grabbed him with enough staff 13 and we lowered him down. After that, there was 14 a young boy. Always had a bunkie. Who was the 15 SHU Lieutenant? Me. Okay? So do I - from 16 experience, yes, I know. Do I talk to my crew? 17 Yes. Was it documented? Yes. That's all I 18 can say. 19 : So yeah, you agree with 20 his decision, it was okay? 21 : He made a decision. 22 : Absolutely. 23 : You know? 24 : Okay. 25 : All right? EFTA00059827 158 1 2 3 4 : Anything else you want to add before we turn this thing off? : Naw. : All right. It is 5 currently 8:06 p.m. on Tuesday, June 15, 2021. 6 This is Senior Special Agent 7 and I am turning off the recorder. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00059828 159 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00059829