EFTA00060373.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JULY 14, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00060373 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00060374 I 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is and I'm a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 : Thank you, sir. 7 : This interview with the 8 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee 9 is being conducted as part of an 10 official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of 11 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 12 date is July 14, 2021 and the time is 1:14 p.m. 13 : Yes. 14 : This interview is being 15 conducted at the Metropolitan Correctional 16 Center in New York, New York, also known as the 17 MCC. Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 18 This interview will be recorded 19 by me, SSA Could everyone 20 please identify themselves for the record and 21 spell your last name. To start, again, I am 22 DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 23 24 : This is DOJ OIG Special Agent 25 EFTA00060375 4 1 : Lieutenant 2 , work for the Bureau of Prisons at MCC 3 New York. 4 : Could you just spell your 5 last name for the record? 6 7 : Thank you, sir. This is 8 an official DOJ OIG investigation into the 9 death of inmate Jeffery Epstein and the 10 surrounding circumstances and you're being 11 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 12 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 13 interview with the DOJ OIG? 14 : Yes. 15 : Yes, thank you. All 16 right, so we got that form, it's the DOJ OIG 17 form I1I-226/2. It says, "The United States 18 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 19 General Warnings and Assurances to Employee 20 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 21 Basis. You are being asked to provide 22 information as part of an investigation being 23 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 24 General. This investigation is being conducted 25 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, EFTA00060376 5 1 as amended. This investigation pertains to 2 security failure and job performance failure. 3 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 4 you do not have to answer questions. No 5 disciplinary action will be taken against you 6 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 7 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 8 in any future criminal proceedings or agency 9 disciplinary proceeding or both." And there's 10 a waiver section. It says, "I understand the 11 warnings and assurances stated above and I am 12 willing to make a statement and answer 13 questions. No promises or threats have been 14 made to me and no pressure or coercion of any 15 kind has been used against me." And as 16 mentioned, this is something that we provide 17 everybody for voluntary interviews, so you're 18 being asked, you know, we just provide these 19 warnings to everyone just knowing it's 20 voluntary, you can stop at any time, you don't 21 have to answer our questions. Do you 22 understand? 23 : Yes, sir, I understand. 24 : All right. So, if you 25 want to review it yourself, please feel free, EFTA00060377 6 1 otherwise there's an employee signature and 2 then employee name below. Thank you for 3 signing, sir. I'm going to sign for the Office 4 of the Inspector General Special Agent. And 5 I'm writing my name, The 6 date is 7/14/2021. 7 : 1:16. 8 : The place is - the time 9 is 1:16 -- 10 : Sixteen. 11 : -- p.m. The place is MCC 12 New York. Special Agent , can you please 13 sign as the signature witness and place your 14 name as the name of witness. 15 : This is Special Agent 16 , I'm signing as a witness. 17 : And as I mentioned, 18 Lieutenant , I believe, were you 19 interviewed prior by the 0IG and the FBI? 20 : Yes, I was. 21 : All right, as mentioned, 22 there's a report that I have here. I don't 23 even think that it's worth going over because 24 there's not really much in it. So, the reason 25 for us to - for interviewing you is to kind of EFTA00060378 7 1 - you were the OIC is our understanding on 2 August 9th, is that correct -- 3 : Yes. 4 : -- of 2019? And just to 5 kind of ask you questions related to what you 6 know about what happened on August 9th and 7 August 10th of 2019. Before starting the 8 interview, I'd like to place you under oath. 9 Lieutenant , can you please raise your 10 right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth and 11 nothing but the truth during this interview? 12 : Yes, I do. 13 : Thank you, sir. If it's 14 something that you don't understand, just ask 15 me to rephrase and I'll try to clarify anything 16 like that. What is your current home address? 17 18 19 : And what is your date of 20 birth? 21 22 : And what is your social 23 security number? 24 25 : What is your current cell EFTA00060379 8 1 phone? 2 -: 3 4 level of education? 5 : High school. 6 : And where did you go to 7 high school? 8 : Graphic Arts in the city. 9 : In New York City? 10 : Yes, New York City. 11 : And what was it called. 12 : Graphic Communication of 13 Arts. 14 : Okay. Cool. Is that 15 like some kind of like -. 16 : It's on 49th Street and 17 10th Avenue. It was a 18 • 19 20 school. 21 • And what is your highest Like a -. : -- advertisement high Oh, that's neat. 22 : Yeah. It was cool. 23 : This is not really to do 24 with the interview, but is that like something 25 you get to, like -. EFTA00060380 9 1 : Well I can draw a little 2 bit and do a little bit of graphic design -- 3 : Oh, neat. 4 : -- from high school. Not 5 too much but that's what I went to high school 6 for. 7 : That's neat. What did 8 you do prior to working for the BOP? 9 : I was in the United States 10 Army and I worked for a hotel. 11 : Okay. As far as being 12 with the Army, when were you in the Army? 13 : I started in 1998. I was 14 in the National Guard and then I went active 15 duty in 2005. 16 : Okay. When did you - are 17 you still in the Reserves? 18 : No, I'm completely done 19 with the military. 20 : When did you get out? 21 : 2011. 22 : Was it an honorable 23 discharge? 24 : Yes it was. 25 : And what was your rank at EFTA00060381 10 1 -. 2 : Corporal. 3 : Corporal? And what was 4 that? E what? 5 : E-4. 6 : E-4. Thank you for your 7 service. And then you said you worked for a 8 hotel, how long did you do that? 9 : Before the military, I did 10 it for three years. I came back, I did it for 11 one year and then I got this job. 12 : Okay. So just prior to 13 being with the BOP -- 14 : Correct. 15 : -- you did - and what did 16 you do there? 17 : Banquet Steward. 18 : And everything with 19 leaving there, was everything copacetic? 20 : Correct. 21 : Okay. How long have you 22 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 23 24 would make seven years. 25 : Seven years? Okay. And EFTA00060382 11 1 do you know your specific enter on duty date? 2 3 : Thank you, sir. When did 4 you graduate from BOP training? 5 6 : Okay. And how long have 7 you been with the MCC? 8 : The whole time, seven years 9 10 : Okay. 11 : -- in September. 12 : You were here the whole 13 time? 14 : Correct. 15 : All right. And you said 16 you're currently a Lieutenant? 17 : Correct. 18 : When were you promoted to 19 Lieutenant? 20 : March 1, 2020, last year. 21 : Okay. And what was your 22 rank or title in August of 2019? 23 : I was a Senior Office 24 Specialist. 25 : Okay. And I have a staff EFTA00060383 12 1 roster here. Here's the - it's going to be on 2 August 9th and then August 10th, it's just for 3 you to refer to, so you don't have to 4 necessarily recall. But what shift did you 5 work on August 9th and August 10th? 6 : So, August 10th, which that 7 should be a Saturday, I was off the weekend and 8 Friday I worked from 6:00 to 2:00 in the 9 Special Housing Unit. 10 : Okay. And what was your 11 position when you were in the Special Housing 12 Unit? 13 : I was an OIC. 14 : And what does OIC stand 15 for? 16 : The Officer in Charge. 17 : And what were those 18 duties and responsibilities as the OIC of the 19 SHU? 20 : Pretty much maintaining 21 paperwork, making sure everything is conducted 22 according to BOP policy. 23 : Okay. And who was your 24 supervisor? 25 EFTA00060384 13 ? It 2 wasn't 3 : Well, actually yes, yes, 4 , I'm sorry, yes. 5 : And he was the SHU 6 Lieutenant? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Great. Now I'm 9 going to - we're going to keep these documents 10 in front of you because as we go through the 11 interview, I'll probably ask you about 12 different people and you can just refer to it. 13 When I do provide you - do you have an extra 14 pen? When I do provide you with documents, do 15 you mind just so that for interview purposes, 16 we - it's not to certify anything is accurate, 17 it's simply to say this is the document that I 18 showed you. So can you just like initial and 19 date on the top of each document that I show 20 you, and it doesn't mean, go through the 21 packet, it's just the top page. So, this one 22 for instance, is the daily assignment roster 23 for Saturday, August 10, 2019 and this one is 24 the daily assignment roster for Friday, August 25 9, 2019. And again, it's simply to - you don't EFTA00060385 14 1 have to do each page, it's just -. 2 : You're not attesting to it. 3 : Yeah. 4 : It's just -. 5 : Yeah. 6 : It's just -. 7 : You're not attesting that 8 it's certified or anything, you know, that it's 9 accurate. It's just to say that these are the 10 documents that we looked at. 11 : Yes, sir. 12 : Would you mind - thank 13 you for initialing. You mind just putting the 14 date? It's 7/14 -- 15 : 14. 16 -- 2021. Thank you, sir. 17 All right. Are you familiar with inmate 18 Jeffrey Epstein? 19 : Yes. 20 : Did you work in the SHU 21 while Epstein was assigned to the SHU in July 22 and August of 2019? 23 : Yes. 24 : During that time, did 25 Epstein have a cellmate? EFTA00060386 15 1 2 3 cellmate was? 4 : Yes, he did. : Do you recall who that : I don't know, it was a 5 Spanish guy, I don't remember his name exactly. 6 : So I'm assuming you're 7 talking about the second of the two inmates. 8 : The first one was 9 The second one maybe 10 , does that sound -. 11 , yes. 12 : Okay. So -. 13 : Older gentleman -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- walked with a cane. 16 : And do you know if there 17 was a specific reason why those cellmates were 18 assigned to Epstein? 19 : I think Psychology said 20 it's just their category, they're older, same 21 age. 22 : Okay. So are you aware, 23 since you said Psychology, did Psychology say 24 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 25 : Well, we always practice, EFTA00060387 16 1 if somebody comes off of suicide watch, they 2 have to go with a cellmate until Psychology 3 clears them to be alone. 4 : Okay. 5 : But whoever has history of 6 trying to commit suicide has to go with a 7 bunkie. 8 : Okay. So were you aware 9 that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on 10 July 23rd -- 11 : Yes, I was. 12 : -- of 2019? Were you one 13 of the responding officers? 14 : No, I was not. 15 : Do you know what 16 transpired on that date? 17 : No, I do not. 18 : Did you hear anything 19 about him either trying to commit suicide or 20 potentially that 21 him? 22 attempted to harm : I saw that in the papers 23 that wanted to harm him but all I 24 heard that he was trying to commit suicide. 25 : All right, do you - is EFTA00060388 17 1 2 there any reason for you to believe that was trying to harm him? 3 : No. 4 : No? 5 : They always got along. 6 : They did always get 7 along? 8 : Yes, sir. They'd always 9 get along. 10 : Okay. And then you said, 11 following that attempt, he was placed - Epstein 12 was placed on suicide watch? 13 : Yes, with being watched on 14 the second floor. 15 : Okay. And what floor is 16 the SHU on? 17 : 9th. 18 : The 9th floor. Okay. So 19 the suicide watch and the psychological 20 observation area is all on the 2nd floor? 21 : Correct. 22 : All right. Was he 23 removed from suicide watch? 24 : Yes he was, afterwards. 25 : Do you have any idea EFTA00060389 18 1 around when that was? 2 3 4 about right? 5 : That I do not remember. : Does July 30, 2019 sound : I wouldn't -. 6 : Or, I guess I should ask 7 this question first. Is there a difference 8 between suicide watch and psychological 9 observation? 10 : Well, psychological 11 observation, you would have all your clothes 12 on. 13 : Okay. 14 : Suicide watch is because 15 you attempted suicide so you're going to be 16 with a smock, in the nude, just a suicide smock 17 and some booties 18 : Okay. 19 -- with nothing else. 20 : And do you know if the 21 entire time that Epstein was on the 2nd floor 22 outside of the SHU, was he in the suicide watch 23 or was he both suicide watch and psychological? 24 : If I'm not mistaken, he was 25 on suicide watch the whole time. EFTA00060390 19 1 : Okay. So you believe 2 that he was actually -- 3 : Yes. 4 : -- in a smock the whole 5 time. 6 : Correct. 7 : Okay. And what does 8 suicide watch entail? 9 : You're being watched 24 10 hours. 11 : By who? 12 : By an inmate or staff. 13 : Okay. And do you know if 14 Epstein was watched by either or, or both. 15 : I think he was just by 16 inmates, if I'm not mistaken. 17 : Inmates and what is the 18 inmates' responsibilities while they're 19 watching him? 20 : Well, they constantly 21 observe you in every - they got to annotate 22 every round that they do, or every 15 minutes 23 they write down what the inmate is doing. 24 : Okay. Did you ever hear 25 of any issues or anything while he was on EFTA00060391 20 1 there? 2 : No. 3 : No? 4 : No. 5 : And what's the 6 difference, what does the psychological 7 observation? 8 : Psychological observation 9 is pretty much is - you're in the same place, 10 just with your clothes on. 11 : And same, you have an 12 inmate (Indiscernible *00:12:35) -. 13 : You have an inmate watching 14 you at all times, yes. 15 : Okay. So for both, it's 16 the same, just the clothes is the only 17 difference? 18 : Correct. 19 : Okay. Did you receive 20 instructions from anyone regarding Epstein 21 being assigned a cellmate after he came back 22 from the 2nd floor and placed back into the 23 SHU? 24 : No. I just did it on my 25 own. EFTA00060392 21 1 : Okay. So no one - you 2 don't recall ever being instructed -- 3 : No, I -. 4 : -- to place him with -. 5 : I don't recall getting a 6 phone call saying, "Put him -" - like I said 7 before, it's we practice, if you're leaving the 8 2nd floor, you automatically go upstairs with a 9 celimate. 10 : Okay. So, did you ever 11 receive any kind of information from either 12 or Psychology saying that 13 Epstein was required to be housed with a cell 14 mate? 15 : Well we knew already and 16 pretty much said, "G, don't 17 forget to put him with a bunkie." 18 : Okay. Did you - and I 19 don't believe that you received it directly, 20 but did you ever see this email? It says - 21 sorry, let me see, it's , who is 22 that? 23 : That used to - she was a 24 Psychologist, one of the Psychologists in the 25 building. EFTA00060393 22 1 : Okay. And it says, it's 2 to "Suicide Watch/Psych Observation update." 3 It says it's dated July 30, 2019 at 12:30 p.m. 4 The subject of the email says, "Inmate Epstein 5 is being taken off of psych observation and 6 needs to be housed with an appropriate 7 cellmate." Did you ever see that by chance? 8 : No. I don't remember this. 9 : Okay. But you knew that 10 he was required to have a cellmate. 11 : Yes. 12 : All right. And you said 13 did inform you? 14 : Correct. 15 : Okay. Did you mind just 16 -- 17 : Oh. 18 : -- initialing and dating 19 that? So you don't recall ever receiving any 20 other written 21 : No. 22 : -- communication 23 regarding the matter? After 24 spoke with you about him being required to have 25 a cellmate, did you communicate that EFTA00060394 23 1 requirement to anyone else in the SHU? 2 : Just in SHU. "All right 3 guys, he needs a bunkie." 4 : Okay. And was that 5 something that you communicated only on the 6 date he came back on July 30 or would that be 7 something that you all would communicate 8 throughout his stay in the SHU? 9 : Well, we constantly just 10 made sure since he was a high-profile inmate 11 and we actually placed him right on the top 12 tier so where we can see - where the OIC bubble 13 was right on top just because of that reason 14 and we, "Hey, you got a bunkie?" "Yes." 15 Because he was always going to his legal visits 16 pretty much the whole day. 17 : Right. 18 : When he came back, made 19 sure he had a bunkie. 20 : Okay. And would you also 21 work then that night watch in the SHU? 22 : Was I working? 23 : Not that day, but in 24 between July 30th and August 9th, do you know 25 if you would have worked that night watch? EFTA00060395 24 1 : I'm pretty sure I did. I'm 2 pretty sure I did. And all my overtime was 3 always in the SHU. 4 : Okay. And do you believe 5 then that everyone who worked in the SHU would 6 have known that inmate Epstein was required to 7 have a cell mate? 8 : Yes. 9 : All right. And what 10 makes you believe that? 11 : It's part of pretty much 12 the SHU training. 13 : Okay. When you say, "SHU 14 training," what training are you referring to 15 and what was taught? 16 : Special Housing Unit 17 training is, once again, the policy of what to 18 do in Special Housing Unit, how to conduct 19 rounds, how to deal with an inmate that is 20 coming off of suicide watch and part of our SHU 21 training is the psychologists speaking to us 22 and breaking down and what to do when an inmate 23 comes off suicide watch, what signs to look for 24 and pretty much making sure you're doing the 25 right thing when somebody comes up from suicide EFTA00060396 25 1 watch. 2 : Okay. So is there any 3 way that people would know that if they didn't 4 attend the quarterly - you're talking about the 5 quarterly SHU training? 6 : Correct. 7 : Is there any way that 8 people that didn't - like people on overtime 9 shifts or people that didn't actually get to 10 take that quarterly training yet, would know 11 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 12 : No, they would not know 13 that. 14 : They would not know? 15 : They would not know that. 16 : And did you communicate 17 with people though? I know you're saying that 18 they knew based upon training, but did you ever 19 communicate with the people working in the SHU 20 that Epstein was required to have a bunk mate 21 at all times? 22 : Well, whoever worked in SHU 23 would pass it down, "Hey, make sure this guy 24 stays with - whether it's him or anybody 25 else, I know we're talking specifically about EFTA00060397 26 1 him, but whether it was him or anybody else, we 2 all would say, "Hey, make sure this guy has a 3 bunkie." 4 : Okay. But you can't 5 remember any specific conversations? 6 : No. No. 7 : Okay. Were there any 8 signs hanging up anywhere in the SHU that said 9 Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 10 : No. 11 : All right. 12 : Not that I -. 13 : So someone mentioned that 14 -. 15 : So, I put one of my own - 16 it was in bright orange paper. I put it next 17 to the computer. It's nothing like from BOP or 18 anything, it was just something between us, 19 that said, "Make sure rounds are conducted and 20 he has a bunkie at all times." Yes, that was 21 me. 22 : Okay. So this document 23 I'm showing, it says, "Mandatory rounds must be 24 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, as per 25 God." This is what you're referring to? And EFTA00060398 27 1 where was this hanging? 2 3 right next to it. 4 On the SHU OIC computer, : All right. Awesome. So 5 I was assuming that this might be a confusion, 6 but someone mentioned that there was also a 7 color document saying that Epstein was required 8 to have a cell mate. Was that ever on the OIC 9 computer or anywhere else? 10 : You know what? If it was 11 color, it was - I probably made it because we 12 always had a stack of orange, that was my 13 telling everybody, "Do what you're supposed to 14 do." 15 : Okay. 16 : But I did this, I know, 17 because I typed it up and I put it up there. 18 Now the 19 : So this is the one that 20 you remember is the -- 21 : Correct. 22 : -- one I just showed you. 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. And that was on 25 the OIC's computer? EFTA00060399 28 1 : There's two computers on 2 the desk. If you see, it's right like you 3 can't miss it. 4 : And is -. 5 : It's bright orange paper 6 and black lettering. 7 : And is that where 8 everybody that works in the SHU, are they all 9 in that same area? 10 : Everybody goes to that 11 station. 12 : So everybody that was in 13 the SHU or ever worked in the SHU would have 14 seen at least that document that you created? 15 : Yes. 16 : And do you remember when 17 that document was created? 18 : I think I did that maybe a 19 couple of weeks after he came upstairs. 20 : And is that initially or 21 after he came back from suicide watch? 22 : The first time he went 23 down, when he came up the second time. 24 : Okay. 25 That - when he was EFTA00060400 29 1 : Sometime after July 30th 2 but prior to August 9th -- 3 : Correct. 4 : -- it would have been up. 5 : Correct. 6 : Okay. You can't remember 7 - sometime between there. Definitely prior to 8 August 9th. 9 : Definitely prior to him 10 coming - or that happening. 11 : And do you believe it was 12 at least a few days prior to that as well? 13 : It think it was maybe as 14 soon as he came upstairs from suicide watch -- 15 : Okay. 16 : I put it up there. 17 : Okay. But certainly 18 prior to August 9, 2019. 19 : Correct, yes. 20 : Okay. 21 : Yes. 22 : And you do not require 23 any signs identifying Epstein's cellmate 24 requirement? Was there ever anything on 25 Epstein's cell door, even on July 30th or EFTA00060401 30 1 anything like that? Do you recall anything 2 like that? 3 : I mean, we had orange paper 4 hanging all over the place, but I don't recall 5 one saying he has to have a bunkie. 6 : Okay. 7 : We practice, you come up 8 from suicide watch, you get a bunkie 9 : All right. 10 : -- no matter who you are. 11 : Got a question here. 12 : Yeah, go ahead. 13 : As for God, is that referring 14 to somebody or God? 15 : That's just, you know, 16 okay, God is watching us, we got to do the 17 right thing. 18 : Okay. 19 : So you're referring to 20 this is the question I had before. Are you 21 referring to God himself, not calling the 22 Warden or the Captain or somebody God? 23 : Oh no, just God himself. 24 : All right. So that's the 25 one sign you can remember that was up -- EFTA00060402 31 1 : Yes. 2 : -- requiring rounds but 3 nothing to do with a cellmate. 4 : Nothing to do with a 5 cellmate. 6 : All right. What is the 7 hot list? 8 : The hot list is inmates 9 that have tried to commit suicide in the past 10 and that's posted in Special Housing Unit. 11 : Okay. And where in the 12 Special Housing Unit would have been the hot 13 list located on August 9th? 14 : Right next to the second 15 phone, next to the cage where we keep MIR 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:20:31), camera, radio 17 holders. 18 : Would it have been like 19 on the desk or behind the desk or -. 20 : Well, we have a hot list, 21 it's next to the phone, that's where it's at. 22 It's a yellow - or it was a yellow binder. 23 : Is there only one phone 24 in the SHU? 25 : There's three. EFTA00060403 32 1 : Three? 2 : Three. 3 : So one of the phones it 4 was next to? 5 : Correct. 6 : Was it hanging on the 7 wall? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. Is it like some 10 kind of a bulletin board type of area or like - 11 . 12 : It's a - we have our cage 13 with some of the equipment -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- and the phone right next 16 to it, it's right in between. That's where it 17 was before. 18 : And do you know if 19 Epstein was listed on the hot list on or around 20 August 9th? 21 : If I'm not mistaken, I 22 think he was. 23 : Okay. 24 : I think he was. 25 : Would have he been listed EFTA00060404 33 1 on the hot list when he came back on July 30? 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. And how do people 4 get placed on - if he was on July 30th, when 5 would an inmate be removed from that hot list? 6 : Well, that's Psychology 7 once their finished with their whatever they 8 do, reports or evaluations on the inmate. 9 : So how does that work? 10 Is it they - an inmate is removed from the hot 11 list if they're no longer a threat of 12 committing suicide? 13 : I think that's what it is. 14 : Okay. 15 : I never really looked into 16 that one. 17 : And does Epstein - I 18 mean, not does Epstein, does Psychology, are 19 they the ones that provide you the hot list? 20 21 22 to? 23 : Yes. : Who do they provide it : They usually come upstairs 24 and change it on their own. 25 : So they actually post it EFTA00060405 34 1 on the -- 2 : Yes. 3 : -- board themselves? 4 : Yes. 5 : Does everybody that works 6 in the SHU know what the hot list is? 7 : Yes. 8 : Do you believe -. 9 : It's part of our training. 10 : As a -. 11 : Not just the SHU training, 12 but that's like when you start working here, 13 everybody should know that that's - when 14 Psychology Department comes to see you, they 15 make you - or they tell you to be aware of the 16 hot list. 17 : Okay. That's a good 18 point. On your annual training that you take 19 at the MCC, would that hot list information be 20 provided during that training? 21 : Yes, it should. 22 : What about the training 23 that we talked about previously when we talked 24 25 : The SHU training? EFTA00060406 35 1 : Yes. 2 : That definitely is. 3 : And in the annual? 4 : Yes. 5 : So, in the annual, the 6 training that you said, you know, we talked 7 about of, they're not in the SHU training, they 8 might not have gotten it, that same information 9 would have been passed along during the annual 10 training? 11 : Yes. 12 : And that's with 13 Psychology letting people know that people -. 14 : Psychology does their part 15 on the training in their class time and they 16 should have or they should because I think 17 that's what they always do. Psychology - any 18 training, everybody takes it and you go over 19 everything pretty much from when you first 20 start -- 21 : Okay. 22 : -- on what to do as an 23 officer. 24 : So, point being, if 25 people come off of suicide watch and are placed EFTA00060407 36 1 in somewhere like the SHU, during annual 2 training, they tell everybody that takes that 3 training that they need to. 4 : Make sure you go over the 5 hot list and deal with who is on it 6 : And who was your 7 -- and if you feel somebody 8 should be on it, just pass it down to 9 Psychology. 10 : To make sure those people 11 have cellmates? 12 : Correct. 13 : Okay. And is that right, 14 if you're on the hot list, unless you have some 15 kind of requirement next to you that you can't 16 be housed with a bunkie, you're supposed to 17 housed with a cell mate? 18 : Yes, yes. 19 : Okay. And is that kind 20 of the purpose of it, to make sure that you're 21 knowing that they're not only suicidal but 22 they're also required to have a cellmate? 23 : Correct. 24 : Okay. 25 : In comparison to the OIC EFTA00060408 37 1 desk, where would that hot list be? Like if 2 you're looking at the desk right now, where -. 3 : So, if I'm sitting on the 4 desk, it should be about not even 10 feet away 5 from me on the next phone. 6 : Okay. 7 : And do the other COs that 8 worked in the SHU know that everyone on the hot 9 list was required to have a cellmate? 10 : They should. 11 : They should, okay. 12 : There's a lot of "shoulds" 13 in this building. 14 : Who replaced you in the 15 SHU on August 9, 2019? Do you remember? And 16 here's the -. 17 : It should have been Officer 18 and Officer 19 : Okay. Do you need to 20 refer to this at all or you just know that from 21 memory? 22 : I think I'm right. 23 : And I think you're right 24 as well, but I just want to make sure that -. 25 : Memory is so far so good, EFTA00060409 38 1 yes. 2 : So you're looking at the 3 daily assigned roster. 4 : Yeah, it's and 5 6 : Anyone else? 7 : No, I only saw those two. 8 : Was there also? 9 Did he replace you? 10 : So I left that 2:00. 11 : Okay. 12 : I knew was coming 13 because that's usually my relief and was 14 a 2:00 to 10:00 officer. 15 : Okay. And where did 16 fit in on this? Do you know? 17 : He was probably doing 18 just coming in. 19 : Okay. So we have a memo. 20 Is this - do you - this memo, it says it's from 21 you and it's dated August 12, 2019. Is this - 22 do you recognize that memo? 23 : No, that's me. 24 : Okay. And did you create 25 that memo? EFTA00060410 39 1 : Yes, I did. 2 : All right. Great. So 3 what it says is, it says it's to the Warden. 4 How do you pronounce the Warden's last -. 5 6 It says, "On 7 Friday, August 9, 2019 at approximately 1:50 8 p.m., I, SOS passed on to oncoming 9 staff member Officer and present shift 10 staff SOS and Officer that inmate 11 Reyes, number 85993-054, was going WAB and 12 possibly may not return. Also that inmate 13 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 14 from his attorney visit." What does WAB mean? 15 : With all belongings. 16 : Okay. And is that 17 : That's when you leave the 18 institution. 19 : Okay. Great. And do you 20 recall actually passing that information on to 21 22 : I - , I 23 probably did speak to them, but in -. 24 : Okay. So I guess I 25 should ask, the way that I interpreted this was EFTA00060411 40 1 that you told but those other people were 2 present in the SHU. Did you have a 3 conversation then, you believe, with both 4 and 5 6 7 8 : I had a conversation with because he relieved me at 2 o'clock. : Okay. : And I told him, "Make sure 9 you pass it down to - but I don't - I know I 10 spoke to because I was still town driver 11 and I saw him outside, but I don't 12 remember seeing him. 13 : Okay. What do you 14 remember - what specifically do you recall 15 saying to 16 : Like, " is going, he's 17 leaving, so make sure Epstein gets a bunkie." 18 : And what do you remember 19 specifically telling to 20 : Same thing. "Hey, you 21 know, I think is going to be gone, 22 Epstein needs a bunkie." "All right." 23 : Okay. And again, who is 24 inmate 25 . That was Epstein's bunkie. EFTA00060412 41 1 2 sounds like? 3 : Up until August 9th it : Correct. 4 : Okay. And do you know 5 how he was selected to be Epstein's cell mate? 6 : Through, again, Psychology 7 recommends, "Oh, they're about the same age. 8 They both are pretty much have -" - not similar 9 charges, but, "This guy is an older man. This 10 guy has a cane. There's not going to be any 11 problems, we should put them in together." 12 : Are you aware of anything 13 like the Captain and the Warden and even the 14 Regional Director going through and vetting 15 Epstein's cell mates or are you unaware of 16 that? 17 : No. 18 : All right. So, you're 19 understanding was that Psychology made that 20 determination? 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. When did you 23 become aware that inmate Efrain Reyes was 24 likely to be removed from the MCC on August 9, 25 2019? EFTA00060413 42 1 : When I walked both of them 2 to the door. 3 : And what time would that 4 have been? 5 : I would say - because R&D 6 usually starts calling people down around 9 7 o'clock, 9:00, 9:30, and that's pretty much 8 around the same time that Epstein is walking to 9 go to his legal visit. 10 : Okay. 11 : I won't - well, it's not me 12 alone with the two of them, but we walked 13 towards the door and I told him he needed - he 14 was going to get a bunkie. 15 : So were Reyes and Epstein 16 both together? 17 : Correct. 18 : And you're the one who 19 was - one of you that was escorting them? 20 : Yes. 21 : And at that point, at 22 9:00 a.m. on August 9th, you did know that 23 Reyes wasn't coming back or likely -. 24 : I knew he was going 25 downstairs. So, WAB means with all belongings. EFTA00060414 43 1 You go to R&D, you're supposed to leave within 2 probably an hour and not come back, but there 3 has been times that they go downstairs with all 4 their stuff and they come right back upstairs. 5 Whether it's to SHU or to a unit. 6 7 8 : Okay. : So -. : So, are you confident 9 that Reyes was actually WAB at 9:00 a.m.? 10 : No, I know I was walking 11 him downstairs to leave the building at that 12 time. 13 : Was he with all 14 belongings at that time? 15 : Yes. 16 : So he -- 17 : Yes. 18 : -- already - he did have 19 his belongings? 20 : He did have his belongings. 21 He was ready to go. But again, it's not always 22 guaranteed that once we're taking downstairs, 23 even though they call us and tell us, "Oh, this 24 guy is going WAB," they just leave. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060415 44 1 : There's been a lot of times 2 that we take them downstairs, two, three hours 3 later, something happened, "You know what? Go 4 right back upstairs, you leave tomorrow or the 5 next day." 6 : Okay. And does R&D stand 7 for Receiving and Discharging? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. What floor is that 10 on? 11 : That's on the 3rd floor. 12 : Okay. Do you get a - let 13 me go through this. So, I got a Lieutenant log 14 and a daily log. So let me find those. So 15 here's the - this top report, the daily 16 activity report is from August 10, 2019 and 17 behind it, it has the Lieutenant's log from 18 Friday, August 9, 2019. So that's what I'm 19 going to refer you to and I'm going to refer 20 you specifically to where it says, "8:00 a.m.," 21 on down. It says, "According to the 22 Lieutenant's log and the daily log," so this is 23 the daily log. I think he's on the third page. 24 It says, "Reyes was pre-removed from the SHU at 25 8:38 a.m." What does that mean? EFTA00060416 45 1 : That's just when they put 2 him on the system that he gets downstairs. 3 : Does it have anything to 4 do with WAB or that he's likely not going to 5 come back? 6 : Well, that pretty much 7 means he left. 8 : That just means he left? 9 : Yes, that means he's left. 10 : But does that mean, like, 11 he's going to court and he's likely not going 12 to come back or it just means he left? Does it 13 have anything to do with the fact that not only 14 did he leave the building, but he's likely not 15 going to return? 16 : Well, that he left the 17 building and most likely he's not going to 18 return. 19 : Okay. And is there a 20 difference? Like what would it say if he just 21 left for a regular court date and he was going 22 to return, (Indiscernible *00:30:47)? 23 : Well, it would say, 24 "Court." 25 : Just, "Court?" EFTA00060417 46 1 : If he was going to court, 2 it would say, "Court." 3 : It wouldn't say, "Pre- 4 remove?" 5 : No, it would just say, 6 "Court." 7 : So is, "Pre-remove," and, 8 "WAB," somewhat the same thing? 9 : Correct. 10 : Okay. So does that mean 11 that - so I've been told that there's some kind 12 of a court list that comes out either on like 13 late August 8, 2019 or early August 9, 2019 14 would have said something with WAB next to his 15 name. 16 : Yes. 17 : What is that called? 18 : That's the court list that 19 we get. So when I walk in or any officer walks 20 into the unit, they would have a court list. 21 Court list would have - I'll say, "Court," or, 22 "WAB." 23 : All right. And I have 24 not seen that document. Do you recall if that 25 actually said, "WAB?" EFTA00060418 47 1 2 remember. 3 : Not that, I cannot : If it - looking at the 4 Lieutenant's log as well as this daily log, the 5 fact that said, "Pre-remove," does that mean it 6 likely said, "WAB?" 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. 9 : Yes. 10 : Because you said if it 11 said just, "Court," or, "WAB," if it said, 12 "Court," it would say, "Court," next to his 13 name -- 14 : Right. 15 • -- on this. 16 : Right. So, we get 17 something like this, just like this one. 18 : So on the daily log, 19 right? 20 : On the daily log, but it 21 would be like a court roster. Name, where 22 they're housed in and next to it, it would say, 23 "Court, WAB, transfer," or something like that. 24 : Okay. So, but based upon 25 the fact that this says, "Pre-remove," on it. EFTA00060419 48 1 Do you believe that the court list said, "WAB?" 2 : Yes. 3 : Okay. 4 : Yes. That's the only 5 reason we would take them down. 6 : Right. 7 : Unless he got - he made 8 bail and all of a sudden, "Hey, we got an early 9 release." 10 : Okay. So when you say 11 it's the only reason you would take them down, 12 wouldn't you take them down also if he was just 13 going to court? 14 : Correct. 15 : Okay. But, I guess what 16 I'm saying is, the difference between court and 17 WAB. It's the same -. 18 : It's - well, if I have a 19 list and I have a court inmate and a WAB 20 inmate, they would both go to R&D and if it's 21 the same time, they would go down at the same 22 time. Then after that is where it would still 23 say the same thing. Well, one would still say, 24 "WAB," and the other one still would, I mean, 25 would say, "Court." Only difference is one EFTA00060420 49 1 would most likely not come back. 2 : Okay. What about the 3 difference between what they're bringing with 4 them? Would they both be bringing all their 5 belongings? 6 : No, they would not. 7 : So a person with court 8 wouldn't have something like Reyes did. 9 : Correct. 10 : So Reyes likely had his 11 bag. 12 : His bag with all his items 13 and the person going out to court would most 14 likely just have a folder or legal 15 documentations that he's taking with him. 16 : All right. So that's 17 another reason why you believe that that 18 document would have said, "WAB?" 19 : Correct. 20 : Okay. Thank you. I'm 21 going to just so we can start getting these 22 things away from you. Do you mind just signing 23 and dating? This is the daily log. And 24 exactly, do you know what the daily log is? 25 This one that you're initialing and dating EFTA00060421 50 1 right now -- 2 : Well -- 3 : -- for August 9, 2019? 4 -- this we would print out 5 just so we could know how to update the 6 Lieutenant's log 7 : Okay. So -. 8 : -- now. 9 : So this daily log is used 10 to update the Lieutenant's log? 11 : Correct. 12 : All right. So would have 13 this this page in daily log, it's the page we 14 were just reviewing, it's the last page which 15 is - although it does say, "Page 1 of 1," or 16 over here, it's this page, I'm going to circle 17 this page, 3 of 3, and I'm going to star next 18 to Reyes's name. Would this have been filled 19 for - would this have been used to fill out 20 this daily log -- 21 : Yes. 22 : -- after the fact? So at 23 8:38, would the Lieutenant's log have been 24 filled out? I'm going to star next to this. 25 Or would it have been at this time where it EFTA00060422 51 1 says, you know, "9:30 -- 2 : 9:30? 3 : -- at night," would have 4 been filled out? 5 : No, it would have been 6 filled out according to the times that are on 7 the log. 8 : Okay. So, the 9 Lieutenant's log is actually typically filled 10 out after these things happen? 11 : Yes. 12 : Later in the day. 13 : Correct. 14 : Not as they transpire. 15 : Correct. 16 : Okay. Good to know. 17 : Well, it depends on who the 18 Lieutenant is. 19 : Right. Okay. 20 : Sometimes they'll do it 21 throughout the day so they're not stuck doing 22 all these changes or putting all the 23 information on the Lieutenant's log, they'll 24 just go by the time. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060423 52 1 : Like, "Oh, it's 8:30, five 2 guys left, I'm going to put it in the 3 Lieutenant's log." 4 : All right. 5 : "Five guys left." 6 : Is there any kind of a 7 requirement that Lieutenants need to fill out 8 the Lieutenant's log as things transpire or 9 does that not matter? 10 : Doesn't matter, so long as 11 by the closing of the day, everything is up to 12 date -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- and the numbers are 15 accurate. 16 : So, prior to leaving your 17 shift it's supposed to be updated? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. All right. So if 20 you can just -. 21 : I have the Lieutenant, yes. 22 : So if you don't mind 23 initialing and dating both of those. 24 : While you're doing that, I 25 just had a question. You said that Reyes had EFTA00060424 53 1 his belongings. What exactly did he have in 2 his hands? 3 : Think it was a bag with a 4 couple of commissary items, nothing -. 5 : Like a plastic bag or -. 6 : A plastic bag. We don't 7 give them anything else to take. 8 : And you also mentioned, "We," 9 who is we when you were bringing him down? 10 : Oh, myself and the Internal 11 Officer, which - usually if it's two inmates, 12 it has to be at least two or three staff 13 members bringing them down. 14 : You wouldn't happen to, by 15 off that list, know who that is? 16 : Internal was , think 17 it was overtime, it was probably him. Sign and 18 19 : Yeah, do you mind just, 20 that's your memo, do you mind just initialing 21 and dating? Thank you, sir. All right, so, 22 and just to sum all that up by what you just 23 saw and by your understanding, you thought 24 was unlikely to return to the MCC. 25 : No. EFTA00060425 54 1 : Okay. And did you 2 receive any kind of call or any other 3 notification on August 19, 2019 saying that 4 was not returning to the MCC? 5 : I don't remember that one. 6 : Okay. So, when would or 7 would a notification have been made informing 8 the SHU or the MCC in general, that was 9 in fact not coming back? How does that process 10 work? 11 : So, if he's going WAB, we 12 already assume that he's not going to be coming 13 back and the way we confirm it is right before 14 the count, "Hey, is he coming back R&D?" "No, 15 he already left, he's gone." 16 : And what count is that? 17 : The 4:00 p.m. count. 18 : All right. So at 4:00 19 p.m., someone from the SHU should have 20 contacted, you said R&D? 21 : Yes. 22 : And said, "Is he coming 23 back?" 24 : Correct. 25 : All right. Is that EFTA00060426 55 1 standard operating procedure? 2 : No, it's just pretty much 3 us confirming that he's not coming back or 4 sometimes they give us a call, "Hey, this guy 5 is not coming back." 6 : Okay. 7 : But we already assume that 8 he's not coming back because he's going WAS. 9 : Okay. So do you know if 10 any notification was ever made to the SHU 11 saying that he was not in fact coming back? 12 : I don't remember. 13 : No? And there's no 14 standard operating procedure on that. 15 : No. 16 : Do you believe that there 17 should be? 18 : I mean, we should go off 19 the roster, but R&D should always, "Hey, this 20 guy is not coming back," think a courtesy call 21 22 : Okay. 23 : -- "This guy is not coming 24 back." 25 : And how is R&D made aware EFTA00060427 56 1 that an inmate is not coming back? 2 : Once they leave here. So 3 they all go downstairs with all their 4 belongings. 5 : No, no, no. So would it 6 be when the other court people, inmates return 7 or would it be prior to that? So, yes, you 8 said, he's likely not coming back at 9 approximately 8:38 when you bring him down. He 10 leaves, it's kind of assumed that he's not 11 coming back. We're trying to figure out, when 12 is it known he's definitely not coming back. 13 Is that when the other inmates that went to 14 court are returned to the MCC or they return at 15 different times or how does that work? 16 : Well, the inmates, they 17 don't all return together. They return 18 different times. 19 : Okay. 20 : But, that's actually a good 21 question. I want to find that out too. I 22 don't know if they're going to - they just 23 locked it. 24 : I think you're locking us 25 in. EFTA00060428 57 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, sorry. 2 : Thank you. Okay, so 3 you're not exactly sure? 4 : I'm not sure how they're 5 like notified or how do they know this guy is 6 not coming back or, excuse me, this guy is not 7 coming back, this guy got time served or, I'm 8 not sure how they know that. 9 : Okay. Do you know 10 anything about possibly the Marshals providing 11 some kind of a court list or anything like that 12 or is this a question for R&D? 13 : It's a question for R&D. 14 : Okay. But as far as you 15 know, either R&D would call the SHU, making the 16 notification, and if they didn't do that by the 17 4:00 p.m. count -- 18 : Yeah. 19 : -- the SHU should be 20 contacting R&D? 21 : Yes, to make sure he's not 22 coming back or to make sure that he might be 23 downstairs and we've got to pick him up. 24 : And is -. 25 : But if he returns, R&D EFTA00060429 58 1 calls us. Anybody from SHU leaves, once they 2 return from wherever they went, "You've got a 3 pick up on three." 4 : Okay. Now as far as that 5 goes, so just walk me through like, it just 6 seems so like a non-definite, like you know 7 what I mean? You assume that he's gone. Would 8 the people that are working in the SHU at 4:00 9 even know to call R&D to find out where 10 is? 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : They would? And how 13 would they know that? 14 15 16 : To verify the count. : Okay. : We count every day, so. 17 : So would remain on 18 the count at that point? 19 : If he's not returning? 20 : So in this case, with the 21 pre-remove, does that mean that he was removed 22 from the count? 23 : Correct. 24 : So, that's - so he's 25 already removed from the SHU count. How would EFTA00060430 59 1 the people that are working in the SHU know to 2 check on him if he's been removed from the 3 count? 4 : The court list stays on top 5 of the desk, usually we have a morning court -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- and afternoon court. 8 : So anybody that's on the 9 court list, you need to - that's how people 10 know every day, they call and say, "What 11 happened to these people at court?" 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. And is that 14 like at a certain time that a person calls? 15 : Usually 3:00, 3 o'clock, no 16 later than 3:30 because of the count. 17 : And on August 9th, by 18 knowing the people you said that were in there 19 and looking at this daily assignment roster, 20 are you able to determine if there's one person 21 that should have called or was their 22 responsibility or is it -. 23 : Well, and would 24 have called. 25 : So one of those two? EFTA00060431 60 1 : Yeah, one of those would 2 have called. 3 : But not 4 was pretty new and 5 so was 6 : Okay. 7 : Pretty new officers, so. 8 : But every day that's 9 done? 10 : If they don't come back, 11 then we assume they're not coming back and if 12 they do come back, R&D usually tells us, "Come 13 pick up on three." 14 : Okay. So the way that 15 that was answered, it sounds like you don't 16 always call based on the court list, you just 17 assume they did - if they didn't show up and R 18 & D didn't call you, you -. 19 : Then, we're like, "Oh, he's 20 not coming back." 21 : All right. So then those 22 two may not have called then, they just would 23 have assumed he was gone? 24 : I mean, Officer got 25 good enough time in that I think he would have EFTA00060432 61 1 called. 2 • 3 -- : And would you always call 4 : I think he would have 5 called, but 6 : -- on those dates that 7 you worked in the SHU at that 4:00, you know, 8 around 4:00 p.m. time, would you have always 9 called? 10 : Myself? Yes. I usually 11 call like around 3 o'clock -- 12 : And is that -. 13 : -- just in case I really 14 dirty, I'll go home early, so. 15 : Now is that like also 16 like a standard operating procedure or is that 17 just based upon whatever the people that are 18 working there want to do? 19 : That's whatever people 20 working there. 21 : Okay. So is there any 22 training on that that you should call at a 23 certain time? 24 : No. 25 : No? EFTA00060433 62 1 : No. 2 : So that's just like 3 basically good, I guess, logistics and good -- 4 : Yes. 5 : -- record keeping. Were 6 you ever instructed on what action should be 7 taken if Reyes, who was assigned to Epstein as 8 a cellmate, was removed from the institution? 9 : If anybody, not only 10 Epstein, loses a bunkie, and he was already on 11 suicide watch, then that's pretty much our 12 training. If he returned from suicide watch, 13 he needs a bunkie. If he has a bunkie and the 14 bunkie leaves, we get him another one. 15 : Okay. Okay, so in this 16 case then, it was Reyes was likely to have been 17 removed from the institution. What actions 18 should have been taken to replace Reyes and 19 when should have they been taken? 20 : Well, as soon as it was 21 verified or confirmed that he left the 22 building, and Epstein was coming up from his 23 attorney visit, which was probably around 8:00 24 because that's the last, like the last call on 25 attorney conference, last legal visit has to be EFTA00060434 63 1 out of the legal department by 8 o'clock. So, 2 as soon as we find out that - if Reyes wasn't 3 there for the 4 o'clock count, it should have 4 been, "Okay, let's find Epstein another bunkie 5 so by the time he comes upstairs, he has one 6 already." 7 : Okay. So based upon your 8 conversations with at least and you 9 believe as well as , should have they at 10 the 4:00 p.m. 11 notifications 12 13 Definitely. 14 count started making some or started replacing Reyes? : Oh, definitely. : So was it their two - 15 their - do you believe it was their, then, 16 responsibility to replace Reyes? 17 : I think it was everybody's 18 responsibility. They should have notified 19 somebody. 20 : Okay. Did you have any 21 communica- let me just go in order so I don't 22 get - so, let me just 23 So at 4:00 p.m., they 24 some notifications or make sure I understand. should have been making at least requesting 25 information on Reyes's location, correct? EFTA00060435 64 1 : Correct. 2 : By 8:00 p.m., when 3 Epstein returned from attorney conference, 4 you're saying at least by that time, that's 5 when a new cell mate should have been assigned 6 or -. 7 : Correct. 8 : Okay. And who was 9 responsible for assigning Epstein with a new 10 cell mate? 11 : So, anyone in SHU could do 12 it. Just got to make sure he doesn't have any 13 separations from another inmate. But, Epstein, 14 when he came to the building was a big deal to 15 everybody, so everybody wants to be involved. 16 So I think they should just notify whoever it 17 was, the Lieutenant, and let the Lieutenant ask 18 around or speak to Psychology who you recommend 19 to be his bunkie. 20 : Okay. And so, being that 21 Epstein was a big deal and people wanted to be 22 involved, when should that notification had 23 been made? 24 : As soon as they found out 25 he wasn't coming back. EFTA00060436 65 1 : So once it was verified 2 and so-. 3 : That he's not coming back, 4 yes. 5 : So at approximately 4:00 6 p.m.? 7 : 4:00 p.m. 8 : Okay. After left 9 for court, should you have begun a process for 10 an inmate or you or whoever else was working in 11 the SHU, should you began that process for a 12 new selected inmate for Epstein? 13 : Well, again, I assumed he 14 was not coming back, I wasn't sure he wasn't 15 coming back. 16 : Okay. So -. 17 : And by the time I left, he 18 still had another - he still had about an hour 19 and a half to come back if he was coming back. 20 : Okay. So, by the time 21 you left, there was still a possibility that 22 : That he could come back. 23 : Okay. 24 : Yes. 25 : Did you make any EFTA00060437 66 1 notifications to anyone aside from and 2 that Reyes was Epstein's cellmate and he 3 was likely not coming back? 4 : I don't remember that. 5 : Do you remember if you, 6 you know, communicated with any of the 7 Lieutenants? 8 : I don't even remember who - 9 which Lieutenant was on. 10 : You got the daily roster. 11 : But -. 12 : Think it was and 13 14 : I actually - I say I know I 15 remember . So I think I - see, 16 I don't want to say I did tell somebody, but I 17 was always kind of anal working the SHU, so I 18 probably said, "Look, he might not be coming 19 back," and when Reyes left, he leave through 20 the 3rd floor which everybody in the 21 Lieutenant's office sees him and R&D sees him 22 and at the same time, I told Epstein, "You're 23 getting a bunkie," he's like, "No, I'm good." 24 And Reyes was like, "No, he's going to make 25 sure you get a bunkie." Because -. EFTA00060438 67 1 : Can you repeat that last 2 thing? What's this? 3 : So, when I walked them 4 towards the door, I said, "Oh, Reyes, you might 5 be leaving today." " ." "And you're 6 going to get a bunkie." Epstein is like, "No, 7 I'm good." Said, "No, you're going to get a 8 bunkie," and Reyes is like, "Yeah," you know, 9 "He does this by the book, you're going to get 10 a bunkie later if I leave or if I don't come 11 back." 12 : I got you. So the way 13 you answered the question before, it sounded 14 like you may have told or you 15 just don't specifically recall? 16 : I do not recall. 17 : Like -. 18 : Again, we brought them 19 down, so. 20 : Okay. No, no, no, I'm 21 talking about like, - or let me - I'll just go 22 in order. Do you remember at 9:00 a.m. who 23 would have been the Activities and Operations 24 Lieutenant? 25 : Well, Operations comes in EFTA00060439 68 1 at 6 o'clock in the morning. 2 : Okay. And who on this 3 date would have been that person? 4 : Lieutenant and 5 came in at 4 o'clock. 6 7 though, right? 8 9 10 : So was Activities : Correct. At 6:00 and then was at 8:00. : Okay. So at 6:00 a.m., 11 would have been in? 12 13 14 : Yes, 6:00 to 2:00 and , 8:00 to 4:00. : Okay. So at that 9 15 o'clock time when you're bringing them down, 16 would you -- 17 : They both should have been 18 there. 19 : -- would have you been in 20 any interactions with Lieutenants at that 21 point? 22 : Yes, because they usually 23 come upstairs to feed. 24 : Okay. And do you 25 remember specifically if you can place yourself EFTA00060440 69 1 back in that day, I know it's a long time ago, 2 but being that that was the day before Epstein 3 died, can you remember at all thinking about 4 any conversations you had with them? 5 : I remember seeing both of 6 them. 7 : Both - you remember -- 8 : Both - both -- 9 : -- seeing both 10 and 11 Lieutenant that day, but (Indiscernible 12 *00:49:03) when - I'm sure, but I'm not a 13 hundred percent positive that I did tell him -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- "Hey," specifically, 16 "Reyes might be leaving, you got to get Epstein 17 a bunkie." 18 : So you believe it's more 19 likely than not that you mentioned it to the 20 Lieutenants. 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. 23 : There you go. 24 : But you just can't 25 specifically recall. EFTA00060441 70 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. And do you believe 3 it was more likely or not that you told one of 4 those Lieutenants over another? 5 : I talked to both of them 6 and I think I probably just told Lieutenant 7 and then he passed it down or vice versa. 8 : Okay. And did you have 9 more of a friendly relationship with one or the 10 other? 11 12 13 : No, just -- : No? : -- even both of them. 14 : And do you remember 15 having any conversations with R&D on August 16 9th? 17 : No. 18 : No? So when you would 19 drop the inmates off, was there any kind of 20 conversations or 21 : Yeah, "What's up? You guys 22 good?" "Yeah, okay." 23 : Okay. 24 : Yeah. Go right back 25 upstairs. EFTA00060442 71 1 : And do you know when it 2 was known that wasn't returning to the 3 MCC? 4 : No. 5 : Even after the fact? 6 Like after August 9th, you never learned that? 7 : No, I never -. 8 : There wasn't any kind of 9 like little internal investigation trying to 10 figure out what that was all about? 11 : No. I -. 12 : But under normal 13 circumstances, you're saying, either R&D would 14 call and let that be known or at the 4:00 p.m. 15 count, or the SHU staff should have called down 16 to find out -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- based upon the court 19 list -- 20 : Usually -- 21 : -- that was in front of 22 them? 23 : -- we do just to make sure 24 this guy is not coming back or R&D would tell 25 us. EFTA00060443 72 1 : Okay. And you're saying 2 that that's normal but certainly by 8:00 p.m. 3 when Epstein came back from attorney client, 4 his attorney visit, they should have known? 5 : Correct. 6 : Okay. And who - can you, 7 by referring to this roster, can you tell me 8 who was working at 8:00 p.m.? 9 : 8:00 p.m., the people that 10 were working were and 11 : Was Noel also? 12 : And - well, the evening 13 watch, Noel, and 14 : So at 8:00 p.m., were all 15 those people on? 16 : No. , because he 17 leaves at 10:00, Noel, she does 4:00 to 12:00, 18 4:00 to 12:00. 19 : Okay. And do you believe 20 all of those people would have known - those 21 three people that you just listed, would have 22 they known that Epstein was required to have a 23 cellmate? 24 : Well, the one that most 25 likely should have known was because he's EFTA00060444 73 1 worked SHU before. Noel worked SHU once in a 2 while and he wasn't even in the SHU 3 department. 4 : Okay. So certainly 5 would have known and Noel should have? 6 : Yes. 7 8 way? 9 : Either way. 10 : Okay. And what action 11 should have they taken? Once they bring 12 Epstein back to the cell, they notice they're 13 putting Epstein - would they know when they 14 brought Epstein back to his cell that Epstein 15 was alone in that cell? 16 17 18 that? 19 • • : Yes. could go either : And how would they know : Well, first we have name 20 tags on the door. Usually when the inmate 21 leaves, we remove the name tag. And of course 22 -- 23 : Can you silence that? 24 : -- the sheets should not 25 have been on the bed. EFTA00060445 74 1 2 3 4 have been removed? : : So Reyes's sheets should Correct. : Do you know if they were? 5 : I don't remember. 6 : And what time should 7 those sheets be removed? 8 : Well, he's not coming back, 9 let's get them. 10 : So sometime between 4:00 11 p.m. and -. 12 : And 8 o'clock. 13 : Okay. And then, is that 14 - is it - are they ever removed when someone is 15 WAS? 16 : Yes. When, so, again, WAB, 17 with all belongings, everything should come out 18 with you when you're WAB. 19 : So do those linens then 20 and clothing? 21 : Yes. 22 : Do you know if they did 23 for Reyes that day? 24 : No, I don't remember that. 25 : Okay. And is that like a EFTA00060446 75 1 policy thing? 2 3 linen. 4 : You got to return your : Okay. 5 : I don't think it's in 6 policy that I know of. 7 : All right. So, they 8 should have been removed when Reyes left, but 9 you don't know if they were? 10 : Correct. 11 : And then they certainly 12 should have been removed once it was verified 13 that Reyes wasn't coming back? 14 : Yes. 15 : And that verification 16 would have been made at either 4:00 p.m. or 17 certainly by 8:00 p.m. 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. Did you conduct 20 any counts or rounds in the SHU during your 21 shift on August 9th? 22 : No. 23 : Rounds? 24 : Well, rounds, yes. Not 25 counts. EFTA00060447 76 1 2 counts or rounds. 3 : Okay. So, sorry, I said : Oh. 4 : So you did conduct rounds 5 though? 6 : Yes. And Friday is a 7 shower day so we're - meaning, we got to shower 8 everybody in SHU, so at one point or another, 9 everybody that worked in SHU before 4 o'clock 10 in the afternoon, went in and out the tiers at 11 least a good 40 times. 12 : Okay. What time are 13 inmates showered? 14 : We start at 6:00. 15 : Okay. Was Epstein 16 showered on that date then? 17 : Yes he was because he goes 18 to his attorney visit. 19 : And he gets showered 20 prior to going? 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. All right, these 23 are the - you said you weren't involved in any 24 counts, so we'll give you the count sheet. 25 These are the round sheets from August 9, 2019. EFTA00060448 77 1 I can't make out this stuff. Does any of that 2 - your signatures or initials? 3 : The RCG right in the 4 middle. 5 : You're RCG? Okay. 6 : Correct. Middle. 7 : All right. And then 8 all right, so you were involved in those rounds 9 that are listed on there. Why do COs conduct 10 counts and rounds? 11 : To make sure the inmates 12 are - why they conduct rounds? 13 : Sure, we'll do each. Why 14 do COs conduct rounds? 15 : To make sure everybody is 16 breathing -- 17 : And why -. 18 : -- and make sure everybody 19 is still there. 20 : And why do they conduct 21 counts? 22 : To count and make sure all 23 the bodies are there. 24 : Okay. Do all the COs who 25 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct EFTA00060449 78 1 and report counts and rounds? 2 : Yes. If they got the ART 3 training, which is the initial training when 4 you start or the new training, we go over the 5 count time and we go over rounds. And when we 6 do the SHU training, we also go over the 7 rounds. 8 : So in that annual 9 refresher training, do they go over SHU counts 10 and rounds as well or just general 11 : Well -- 12 : -- institution? 13 : -- general institution 14 counts. 15 : Okay. 16 : Now the rounds in the units 17 are different than the SHU rounds, but it is 18 part of the annual training because there's a 19 section that says, "SHU." 20 : Okay. So during that 21 section that's title, "SHU," for the annual 22 refresher training, they actually talk about 23 conducting counts and rounds? 24 : Correct. 25 : Okay. And I'm assuming EFTA00060450 79 1 everybody that worked that day would have at 2 least taken the annual refresher training. 3 : Yes. 4 : Do all COs who work in 5 the SHU know how to properly document counts 6 and rounds? 7 : Yes. 8 : And how do they know how 9 to document? 10 : Well, through the training. 11 : Do they - so during that 12 annual refresher training and entry training 13 they teach you how to document as well? 14 : Well, we just log in. 15 Whenever you do a round, you got to log it in, 16 so that's kind of the way they tell us. 17 : And when you say, "Log it 18 in," how do you log it in? 19 : Well, you could log in your 20 rounds on TRUSCOPE or you could in the SHU, 21 which the rounds sheets we still have, that's 22 the actual paper you write it in. 23 : Do they - have they done 24 both? Do you not only have this paper that I 25 just showed you there with the rounds, do they EFTA00060451 80 1 also have - do you also have to go into 2 TRUSCOPE and log them in manually as well? 3 : Yes. But not the every 30 4 minute rounds. Like, in the unit, you document 5 your rounds. In SHU, you have to do it on the 6 paper, you don't have to write on TRUSCOPE, "I 7 did a round 30 minutes, I did a round within 40 8 minutes, I did a round in 30 minutes." You 9 don't have to write it over and over and over 10 on TRUSCOPE. 11 : When do you have to do it 12 in TRUSCOPE? 13 : Just throughout your shift 14 that you conducted rounds. 15 : So it's not every 30 16 minutes but at some point you've got to go in? 17 : Yes. 18 : And do you have to 19 document, like within TRUSCOPE that you did it 20 every 30 minutes or just that it - how does 21 that -. 22 : That they were done. 23 : That they were done. 24 : Yes. 25 : So it's not like it's EFTA00060452 81 1 where every 30 minutes you have to see what 2 time it is -. 3 : Correct. 4 : Okay. Is it ever 5 acceptable for a CO to document a count or a 6 round prior to conducting the count or a round? 7 : No. 8 : What do you know about 9 COs assigned to the SHU doing this? 10 Documenting the rounds and the count slips 11 prior to ever conducting the rounds or the 12 count slips? 13 : The time that I'm there, it 14 was never done. 15 : It was never done? 16 : No. 17 : Do you know anything 18 about that? 19 : No. 20 : Even after the fact, have 21 you heard about that? 22 : Even after the fact. 23 : Who else is responsible 24 for conducting counts and rounds inside the MCC 25 SHU aside from the people that are actually EFTA00060453 82 1 working in the SHU? 2 : Well, the SHU Lieutenant, 3 the Operations Lieutenant, they both have to 4 conduct rounds on all ranges in SHU. 5 : So when Opera- so there 6 was no SHU Lieutenant on August 9, 2019, 7 correct? 8 : Correct. 9 was hurt, if (Indiscernible *00:58:37) think he 10 was hurt. 11 : I think he was on leave 12 and then got hurt that weekend, but yes. So he 13 wasn't there, so that would have placed the 14 responsibility on the Operations Lieutenant? 15 : Well, regardless, the 16 Operations Lieutenant has to do his or her 17 rounds. 18 : Oh, okay. So, even if 19 the SHU Lieutenant is there, the Operations 20 Lieutenant also has to conduct a round in the 21 SHU? 22 : Correct. 23 : And is it once per shift? 24 : Yes. 25 : And what does a round for EFTA00060454 83 1 the Operations Lieutenant look like? What does 2 it entail? Is it just them visiting the SHU or 3 do they actually have to walk the tiers? 4 : They have to walk the 5 tiers. 6 : Is that policy? 7 : There's a sign in book and 8 then there's these little papers on the end of 9 every range that they have to sign on the 10 bottom. 11 : So on your shift, it 12 appears that Lieutenant is actually the 13 one that conducted a round, is that correct? 14 : Yes. 15 : Now, by that 16 certification, mean that he actually walked the 17 tiers? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. So if Lieutenant 20 was the person to have walked the tiers, 21 would have that - would that refresh your 22 memory? Would that conversation, the fact that 23 Epstein's cell is now empty, would that have 24 come up? 25 : It depends on the time he EFTA00060455 84 1 walked around. 2 3 : Okay. : That just means he walked 4 in from 6:00 to 2 o'clock in the afternoon. It 5 doesn't tell - like, 6 that when he went up 7 8 9 spoke to him. 10 11 Lieutenant 12 should have been it's not even specific there I was there -- Okay. : -- or any other officer : Would you believe that , if he's doing the rounds, tipped off on the fact that 13 that cell was empty? 14 15 that he did. 16 17 18 19 he should 20 : Yeah, depending on the time : Okay. : The time that he did walk. : Was there any action that have taken at that point? : Well, if - I'm guessing if 21 he saw an empty cell, everybody is asking, you 22 know, he should have asked where he went. : Right. 24 : Well, went downstairs, who he asked. 23 25 depending EFTA00060456 85 1 : And by this, are you able 2 to tell when Lieutenant actually 3 conducted that round? 4 : No. 5 : You're not able to tell? 6 : No. 7 : Where is that Lieutenant 8 log? I know it's here - some - oh, no, no, no. 9 I have another one right here. 10 : (Indiscernible *01:00:45). 11 : No, no, no, it's - 12 there's Lieutenant round logs. So what is this 13 that I'm showing you? 14 : These are from TRUSCOPE. 15 : And is that how - can you 16 find where during your shift, a Lieutenant - is 17 that when Lieutenants do rounds, that's where 18 they log in and they say when they did a round? 19 : Correct. On TRUSCOPE. 20 : Okay. Can you find 21 during your shift who it says did their round 22 in the SHU. 23 : Lieutenant did a 24 round in 9-South at 11:27 and he did it on 10- 25 South at 11:28. EFTA00060457 86 1 : Okay. And 10-South is 2 the -. 3 : The upper level. 4 : Of the SHU? 5 : Yes. 6 : Correct? And it's like a 7 separate unit in the SHU? 8 : Yes. 9 : For the high-profile and 10 single cell inmates? 11 : Yes. 12 : And where Epstein was 13 housed, that would have been in 9-South? 14 : Correct. 15 : Okay. Great. So -. 16 : 11:27 a.m., that's when he 17 -- 18 : That's when he would have 19 visited. 20 : -- should have did the 21 round. 22 : Okay. 23 : Or more or less. 24 : But you don't recall 25 having a conversation with him at that time? EFTA00060458 87 1 : No. 2 : No? And you're sure in 3 August of 2019 that Lieutenants at that time 4 did actually conduct rounds of the entire unit 5 to include walking the tiers? 6 : Yes. 7 : Check? Okay. So if 8 Lieutenants tell us now when we're talking to 9 them, "No, no, no, no, that's the Lieutenant's 10 discretion. They can just pop in, check with 11 the staff and then leave." Is that -. 12 : No. You have to - by 13 policy, do a round throughout the whole 14 building and make sure you log it in. And in 15 SHU, we have the round sheets which that's part 16 of your SHU round. You can't just walk into 17 SHU, do a 360 and walk right back out. You 18 have to sign the round sheets. 19 : And what's your opinion 20 if Lieutenants are telling us, "No, no, no, no, 21 no, we don't actually have to walk the tiers, 22 we can just check with the COs and go to the 23 next unit." What's your opinion of that? 24 : I'd say that's crap. 25 : Do you believe those EFTA00060459 88 1 people know better and they know that they need 2 to actually conduct rounds? 3 : Every Lieutenant should 4 know that they have to do rounds in Special 5 Housing, walk around every tier and every 6 range. 7 : And how do they know 8 that? Is that something provided at training 9 or how do they know? 10 : Well, I became a Lieutenant 11 and that was pretty much, "This is what you got 12 to do. When you do rounds, that's part of your 13 SHU rounds," not just -- 14 : And -. 15 : -- go and sign the book and 16 leave. 17 : And at the time we're 18 talking about, August 9, 2019, you were not 19 actually a Lieutenant yet, but you do know that 20 that was still policy at that time? 21 : Correct. 22 : Do you know where that 23 policy is found? Is that a SHU policy or is it 24 a Psychology policy or is there -. 25 . I think that's a Lieutenant EFTA00060460 89 1 policy. 2 : And there's a separate 3 Lieutenant's book that shows all your policies? 4 : Well, we have the 5 Lieutenant's log and just like when staff does 6 their round, we have to insert it into 7 TRUSCOPE. So the Lieutenant, when they do 8 their rounds, they have to log into TRUSCOPE 9 and say they conducted rounds in Special 10 Housing. 11 : But do we know where that 12 policy is found? 13 : That I do not know. 14 : Okay. Do you know if 15 it's found in the SHU policy? 16 : I don't know that. 17 : You don't know? Okay, no 18 problem. So what are the OIC's 19 responsibilities when it comes to conducting 20 counts and rounds? 21 : Well, when it comes to 22 conducting rounds, you got to make sure 23 everybody does a round every 30 minutes, within 24 40 minutes, throughout the day and we got to 25 make sure the round sheets are filled out. We EFTA00060461 90 1 got to make sure the counts - make sure that 2 there's - it's an accurate count and we got to 3 make sure the count slip is filled out the 4 right way. 5 : And you said that on this 6 one specifically, you said you're all the 7 : The 2 o'clock. 8 : The 2 o'clock ones? 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : Okay. So that's all your 11 initials are. 12 : Correct. 13 : And were those, do you 14 remember, were those rounds conducted? 15 : Yes. 16 : Yes? 17 : I know for a fact those 18 rounds - like I said, it was shower day, so 19 usually shower days, we're in and out, in and 20 out, in and out, throughout the whole day and 21 we don't finish showers until about 2:00, 22 sometimes 3 o'clock in the afternoon. 23 : Okay. So you're 24 constantly interacting with each -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00060462 91 1 each. So as far as 2 the times go though, are they like specific 3 times or do you kind of like add those later on 4 in the day? How does that work? 5 : Well, we usually go in, 6 sign it, if I forget, I already know that I 7 went back another 20 minutes, 30 minutes -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- then I'll fill it out. 10 : Okay. 11 : You try to make it as 12 accurate as I could when I'm there, but we're 13 all human. Sometimes I - just because I didn't 14 write it down, doesn't mean I didn't go down 15 the range. 16 : Yeah. 17 : I just forgot to write it 18 down. 19 : Well, what is the purpose 20 of signing a 30 minute round sheet? 21 : To confirm that you did 22 your round. 23 : Okay. And aside from 24 when you were there and you were signing it in, 25 do you know if on August 9th specifically, if EFTA00060463 92 1 the people that signed this document also 2 conducted their rounds? 3 : No. I would assume they 4 did -- 5 : You do? 6 : -- just signing it. 7 : Do you know anything 8 about people writing down that they did it when 9 they actually in fact did not do it? 10 : The only thing I know is 11 part of the times it would be off. Like, all 12 right, like I said before, I walked around but 13 I didn't write it, "Oh, shit, what time did I 14 do the round? 7:15, maybe it was actually 15 7:05," but, you know, I'll guess the time. Not 16 that I wrote it down and I didn't walk around 17 at all. 18 : Now, you're off at 2:00, 19 correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : Should someone have 22 filled in the other -- 23 : Yes 24 : -- times? Who should 25 have -. EFTA00060464 93 1 2 3 that out? 4 : We should have. : Who should have filled 5 should have filled 6 that out? 7 : Or anybody else that was 8 there. 9 : Okay. And do you see 10 these initials over here where it says, 11 "Signature," from 4:00 p.m. until midnight, do 12 you know who that would have been? Would have 13 been -. 14 : If it's a JN, it should be 15 Noel. 16 : Okay. Or TN -- 17 : Hold on. 18 • • -- maybe. 19 : Right, (Indiscernible 20 *01:06:57). 21 : I don't know if it's T or 22 a J. 23 : J or a -. 24 : It's T. 25 . T? EFTA00060465 94 1 2 3 : T and so Tova Noel? : Yes. : But you believe is 4 the one that should have certified the 2:00 to 5 4:00? 6 : Yeah. 7 : Do you believe 8 should have also while he was on duty, been the 9 one that had a signature from 4:00 p.m. on? 10 : He could have. He could 11 have. It's not - you don't have to be the 12 person (Indiscernible *01:07:18). Anybody 13 could sign the rounds but I just did it because 14 I was in and out the range, so I always signed 15 them. But anybody could have signed the rounds 16 as long as they did them. 17 : So what would your 18 opinion be if I tell you that someone like a 19 Tova Noel says that they actually fill this in 20 at the very start of their shift prior to ever 21 conducting any rounds just to make sure that 22 it's filled out correctly. What would you say 23 to that? 24 : They fucked up because they 25 still not done it. Sorry. EFTA00060466 95 1 2 3 : No. : Excuse my language. : That's what we're looking 4 for is some kind of, you know, honest answer. 5 : Yeah. No. That's a big no 6 go. 7 : Do you know if anyone was 8 doing that? 9 : I never worked with her 10 like that. I know she worked in SHU a couple 11 of times, but - and she was pretty new, so. 12 : So she - let's say 13 hypothetically, she's saying that she's doing 14 it, not based upon what people are telling her, 15 but watching other people and that's how they 16 did it. Do you know of anybody else that ever 17 did it that way? 18 : No. Again, I - if it was 19 if they were working with me, it never 20 happened. 21 : Okay. 22 : Yeah. You know, I got, like 23 I said, not to toot my own horn, but I am very 24 prideful of my job and I was Officer of the 25 Year, Rookie of the Year, also won numerous EFTA00060467 96 1 awards and I got promoted within five year. 2 : Okay. I got you. 3 : Obviously I was doing 4 something right. 5 : Sure. So being that, you 6 know, you've been around the block and you 7 sound like you're an ideal employee - how do I 8 ask this question? Would it surprise you that 9 she's saying that that's the way she thought it 10 was supposed to be done? 11 : Yes, definitely. 12 : And why? 13 : And we always say, "If you 14 see somebody else doing something wrong, 15 correct it, don't follow it." 16 : Okay. 17 : So, I think - yes. 18 : Do you remember ever 19 speaking with Tova Noel about how to fill out 20 round sheets? 21 : No. 22 : No? And even as the OIC 23 and she's newer, would that have been something 24 that you dealt with her with and try to like 25 train her on it? EFTA00060468 97 1 : I mean, I always decide to 2 do rounds within 30 to 40 minutes. 3 4 5 : Right. : Yeah. : But did you ever talk 6 about the actual documentation of it? 7 : No. 8 : No? 9 : Not specifically to her, 10 no. 11 : All right. And speaking 12 of Tova on August 9th, referring back to that 13 Lieutenant log, are you able to determine who 14 it was that would have been the supervisor on 15 duty that -- 16 : For that night? 17 : -- that conducted a round 18 during - between 4:00 p.m. and midnight? 19 : That should have been 20 • 21 • 22 : It says here - I don't know 23 Lieutenant - on the 9th. 24 : On the 9th, correct, so 25 not the 10th, the 9th. EFTA00060469 98 1 : Oh, okay. 2 : Would have been or 3 - 4 : Well, was Acting 5 Lieutenant so she made the round at 7:31 p.m. 6 : Okay. And at 7:31 p.m. 7 on August 9th -- 8 : Correct. 9 : -- when she conducted a 10 round, would she have known that she had to 11 actually conduct the round and walk down the 12 tiers being that she was an Acting Lieutenant. 13 : Yes. 14 : So how would she know 15 that? 16 : She's the Acting 17 Lieutenant, so usually if you're an Acting 18 Lieutenant then you pretty much have to do 19 everything that the actual Lieutenant does 20 which is also part of conducting your rounds. 21 Now, it's her and another Lieutenant working 22 that night. Sometimes the other Lieutenant 23 might say, "Don't worry about SHU, I'll do the 24 rounds." But according to the log, she did the 25 rounds at that time. EFTA00060470 99 1 : Now, is that 2 certification that they make at the bottom of 3 these round sheets, is that certifying that 4 they actually conducted a round of the tiers? 5 : Yes. 6 : All right. So that's not 7 just saying that they visited the SHU, but 8 actually that they conducted a round in the 9 SHU. 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. Do you recall 12 having any conversations with anyone with 13 regard to rounds on August 9th, 2019? It could 14 be Epstein rounds, rounds in the SHU, anything 15 like that? 16 : Just staff, "Hey, let's 17 make sure we got these - keep these rounds up. 18 : Okay. But you are - you 19 said you did create the round sheet that 20 specifically said that Epstein rounds needed to 21 be done every 30 minutes (Indiscernible 22 *01:11:54). 23 : Right. 24 : Okay. And do you 25 remember if, you know, when you're -. EFTA00060471 100 1 : So whoever was there, day 2 watch - saw that paper. Monday I came in and 3 that paper wasn't there anymore. 4 : So it was there when you 5 left at 2:00 p.m. on Friday, August 9th. 6 : Yeah, was here. 7 : And that was gone by 8 Monday. 9 : By Monday. 10 : Okay. 11 : I was off weekends. 12 : But it was definitely 13 there on August 9th? 14 : For a fact, yes. 15 : Okay. And you said it 16 was hanging right on the computer? 17 : Yeah. 18 : So it was like blocking 19 the screen or how -. 20 : No, it was right next to 21 the screen. 22 : Right next to the screen. 23 : It wasn't blocking the 24 screen. It was next to the screen. 25 : Is it hanging on the PC? EFTA00060472 101 1 : Yeah. 2 : So, not the monitor 3 : Oh, no. 4 : -- but the actual computer 5 itself. 6 : Yeah, like on the side. 7 : And not only, obviously, 8 that's a big orange document, was it the same 9 size as what we're showing you or is that 10 enlarged? 11 : It was -- 12 : The same size as -- 13 : -- the same exact -. 14 : -- as a regular piece of 15 paper. 16 : That, but a little bright 17 orange paper with black letter. 18 : So roughly 11" by 12" or 19 13" or whatever those are. Okay. And so 20 obviously that's a notice for everyone. Do you 21 remember on August 9th though specifically 22 talking with anyone about conducting rounds on 23 Epstein? 24 : It was something we spoke 25 about every day. EFTA00060473 102 1 2 3 : Oh, you did. : Like -- : There were conversations, 4 "Make sure you -." 5 : -- "Hey, look, this guy is 6 still here. He's right there," you know, 7 "Let's make sure -." 8 : Even though he was in 9 attorney conference though? 10 : No. Make sure we're doing 11 rounds. And everybody spoke about it, "Make 12 sure we're doing round, make sure we're doing 13 rounds." 14 : So even though he's gone 15 for the majority of your day at least, was that 16 something, you know, when you were like leaving 17 your shift, would you have said, "Hey, make 18 sure 19 : Oh, yeah. Yeah. 20 : -- you know, for God, 21 make sure." 22 : Hell yeah. And, everybody 23 already got like from the Warden, Lieutenants, 24 "Hey, make sure you guys do your rounds." 25 : So that was going to be EFTA00060474 103 1 my next question. So, who else was instructing 2 you on doing rounds and specifically doing 3 rounds on Epstein? 4 : Everybody. 5 : And can you remember -- 6 : So -. 7 : -- any specific direction 8 coming from anyone? 9 : So, Warden used to 10 walk around a lot in SHU and he say, "Hey, make 11 sure you guys keep an eye on him," pretty much 12 directly, but in the indirectly telling us to 13 do our job. 14 : Right. 15 : Same thing with Lieutenant 16 . He used to walk around, "Hey guys, make 17 sure you do your rounds." And, you know, 18 , the same thing, "Hey, make 19 sure you guys do rounds." 20 : Now being that you were 21 the OIC and was the SHU Lieutenant, can 22 you remember any specific conversations with 23 him with regard to Epstein and doing rounds or 24 anything? 25 : Well, he used to tell us EFTA00060475 104 1 just, "Make sure you're on top of it. 2 : Do you know from the time 3 that was placed with on July 30th and the 4 need for Epstein to be placed with an inmate, a 5 cellmate. Can you recall any conversations 6 specifically with with regards to Epstein? 7 : I think he told us to put 8 him in with Reyes. Uh-huh. 9 : And again, do you know 10 why he was - Reyes was chosen? Now, I know you 11 said he was an older gentleman 12 : Right. 13 -- and he had a cane or 14 something like that, but I mean, you -- 15 : So I think -. 16 : -- you don't know 17 anything other than the fact that Psychology 18 : Psychology probably 19 recommended him or they looked through the 20 whole SHU roster and felt he was probably the 21 safest person to put him with. 22 : Okay. And do you know if 23 people were conducting rounds on Epstein like 24 your sign said? Because you weren't there when 25 he was there, so do you know if -. EFTA00060476 105 1 : So, after 2 o'clock, they 2 should have been conducting rounds. 3 : Right. 4 : And I don't remember 5 : Well, he would get back 6 around like 8 o'clock, right? 7 : Right. I don't -- 8 : So, like 8:00 p.m. on -. 9 : -- remember if we started 10 showers or not going on but they should - 11 regardless while he was there or not, they 12 should have still continued the rounds. 13 : And I know that they 14 should have, but do you know if they were? 15 : I can't say, "Yes, they 16 did," or, "No, they did not. 17 : But whenever you were 18 there, they were being done? 19 : Yes. 20 : Okay. 21 : We were all over the place. 22 : All right. So this is 23 where it's going to get a little complicated, 24 so just bear with me. I'm going to show you 25 these count slips from August 9th up until EFTA00060477 106 1 midnight of August 10th. I'm just going to 2 have you help - this is where, remember, I said 3 I was going to help you, you know, put this 4 puzzle together. I believe we already know the 5 answers but I don't want to give you the 6 answers in fear that I'm wrong. So this is 7 from the 5:00 a.m. count to the midnight count 8 and I want to show you the Lieutenant's log 9 which, where is that? So here's the 10 Lieutenant's log. And we didn't print out that 11 paper that I made, did I? 12 : Which one? 13 : The one that I drafted 14 yesterday and said, "Make sure we print this 15 out." All right, so, we'll just start with 16 8:00 a.m., since that's when you came in, so we 17 can actually - the reason I was showing you the 18 5:00 a.m. is because I really wanted you to 19 notice - okay, two. Is ZA the SHU? 20 : Yes. 21 : And so 77 is the total 22 count in the SHU for inmates? 23 24 : Correct. : Then we look back at 25 these count slips and we see - sorry I'm EFTA00060478 107 1 looking over you, but, ZA says -. 2 3 4 "77," correct? 5 : Thomas. : And at 10:00 it says, : Yes. 6 : All right. So we'll put 7 that here. It says on the Lieutenant's log, 8 n77," -- 9 : 77, yes. 10 11 12 correct? All right. So now where are we at? We're at the 4:00 p.m. count. 13 : 4:00 p.m., yes. 14 : Correct? So for ZA, it 15 shows 76 total, right? 16 : Yes. 17 : One in attorney client, 18 brings it down to 75. 19 : Yes. 20 : So what should the count 21 slip reflect then? 22 : At this time? 23 : Yes. 24 : The count, the physical 25 bodies in SHU. EFTA00060479 108 1 : Okay. So it should 2 reflect -- 3 : 75. 4 : -- 75. Okay, great. So 5 here where ZA, ZA shows 75, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. Now we're looking 8 at 10:00 p.m. ZA says 73, right? 73 total 9 bodies it says at 10:00 p.m.? Now the ZA - 10 where is it? ZA count slip says, "73 plus 1." 11 First, can you think of any reason why it would 12 say, "Plus 1?" 13 : It shouldn't say, "Plus 1," 14 unless somebody came in at night. 15 : Okay. 16 : But regardless, that 17 shouldn't be like that, it should be 74. 18 : Okay. 19 : Not 73 plus 1. 20 : So this is where you're 21 going to start getting interested. So at 22 midnight, the ZA count says, "72." "72," 23 right? So the count slip says, "73." Now, 24 reviewing this, the E-1 says, "72," same 25 institutional count, says, "72," the count slip EFTA00060480 109 1 still says, "73." Now let's look at this. And 2 granted, you just told us this could have been 3 done later in the day so maybe this wasn't done 4 at the time. 5 : By that time, it should 6 have been done. 7 : So 8:00 a.m. So we have 8 these different places where it says these 9 people were moved. So the 8:30 a.m., do you 10 agree that inmate Reyes was removed and it 11 brings the count down to 76? 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. So we go down 14 to 75. is placed on dry cell from 15 ZA. 16 17 18 19 : Okay. : Moves it down to 75. : -- 75. All right. So 20 that 4:00 should have said - the 4:00 p.m. 21 count should have said -. 22 : Should have been 75. Which 23 is 75. 24 : Right. But, shouldn't 25 have this said, "75?" EFTA00060481 110 1 : No. 2 : Because the 75, one 3 person in attorney, that should be 74, right? 4 : Yes. So this is fine at 5 76. So now -. 6 : But that, isn't that 7 referring to Epstein being in attorney? 8 : Yes. 9 : So, shouldn't this say 75 10 based upon this? 11 : Reyes was moved before that. 12 : Unless -. 13 : So this is at 3:15, the 14 count goes down to 75, so shouldn't this E-1 15 say 75 here? 16 : No, because this guy could 17 have still been doing dry cell in SHU. 18 : Okay. 19 : Meaning, dry cell, he's 20 inside a cell. The water is off, he doesn't 21 have any clothes. He uses the bathroom inside 22 of SHU. 23 : So -. 24 : Let me keep my thought. 25 All right. So then this brings it down. So EFTA00060482 111 1 3:15, now we go over to - it brings it down to 2 74 here, Hemmingway. Brings that count to 74. 3 : He got kicked out. 4 : Reid gets 73. 5 : He got kicked out. 6 : Felix goes down to 71. 7 : Another one -. 8 comes in, goes to 9 72. That's at 8:28 p.m. So 72 is the count at 10 8:28 p.m. ZA still says 73. Now let's look at 11 that. It says now, R&D now has one in it. 12 Fernandez is in R&D dry cell. It actually 13 doesn't even say he's on it in this thing. 14 : No. 15 : But, ZA says, "73," 16 there's no one for that one, correct? 17 : Right. 18 : And this is where it 19 says, "73 plus 1." Would the thought maybe, 20 saying, "73 plus 1," that one being Fernandez 21 on dry cell, and they're using the 22 institutional count 73? 23 : Should have been, if he's 24 in dry cell in SHU, he's counted inside of SHU. 25 : Right. So -. EFTA00060483 112 1 : If he's not in SHU, then he 2 shouldn't be counted. 3 : So he's not in SHU. 4 : Correct. So that means, 5 the count should have been 73. 6 : And should have that 7 count been changed way back here if he's not in 8 SHU? Should have this, like we talked about, 9 this 4:00 p.m. -- 10 : Yes. 11 : -- should have said 75? 12 : Correct. 13 : And why is that? 14 : You count physical bodies. 15 : Physical bodies. You 16 don't count ghost counts or you don't count 17 people that aren't in your -. 18 : No. if you don't see the 19 flesh and it's a stand up count, so every 20 person or inmate, whether it's in SHU or in a 21 unit, they have to stand up for the count and 22 you verify it, one, two, three, four, five, 23 six, then the person behind you has to verify 24 that count. 25 : All right, and so what is EFTA00060484 113 1 your -. 2 : If it's a body there, he 3 gets counted. 4 : What is your opinion then 5 if in fact that at 3:15, is moved out 6 of the SHU and placed -- 7 : Then the count just 8 dropped. 9 and placed into - 10 right. But the fact that the count slip for ZA 11 matches still what the E-1 says. Does that 12 tell you anything about if the count was 13 conducted or not? 14 : It should have been - and 15 everything is should have. So -- 16 : So that should have said 17 - the 4:00 p.m. count should have in fact, if 18 isn't in there, that should have 19 actually said, "74," correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : So does that tell you 22 that they did or did not conduct the count in 23 the SHU? 24 : If they counted 75 physical 25 bodies, then that's a good count. EFTA00060485 114 1 : Right. 2 : But now, if there is not 75 3 physical bodies in the SHU, then they went off 4 whatever it is they were going off and verified 5 it with this paper right here, which not 6 everybody has access to it. This is the E-1 7 that we keep count on. 8 : So would the SHU people 9 that are in the SHU, would they have access to 10 know what the count was for this E-1, what 11 they're utilizing for that count? 12 : No. Unless somebody says, 13 "Hey, you're missing one, your count is 75." 14 : So the only way someone 15 in the SHU would be able to actually know what 16 number to provide is by actually doing the 17 count? 18 : Correct. 19 : Really? All right. So 20 if we know that is now not in the 21 SHU, how are they coming up with that 75 number 22 for 4:00 p.m. and then as well as at 10:00 23 p.m., they're coming up with a wrong number and 24 again at midnight, they're writing down the 25 wrong number. They're writing down the number EFTA00060486 115 1 that they think the institutional count is, but 2 there's not that many people that are actually 3 in SHU. How do we explain that? 4 : So, the only thing I can 5 think of is they put - they locked somebody up 6 between the 4 o'clock count and the 10 o'clock 7 count meaning somebody from the unit did 8 something wrong and they ended up in the 9 Special Housing Unit. So that's how the 10 numbers would be different. 11 : So if we have information 12 that -. 13 : And - sorry to interrupt. 14 : No, go ahead. 15 : Again, everybody is human 16 and everybody makes mistakes, unless somebody 17 write in the log missed one inmate going from a 18 unit out or leaving from SHU to a unit. 19 : Well, that's exactly 20 right. So at 3:15, was never keyed 21 out of the SHU. He wasn't keyed out of the SHU 22 until this count at midnight. 23 : So he was placed in dry 24 cell where? 25 : So, at - he was placed in EFTA00060487 116 1 dry cell at - are R&D and RA the same thing? 2 : Okay. That's right. 3 : Yeah, can you just read 4 what it is that you showed me? 5 : Oh, I'm sorry. 6 : I'm sorry. 7 : -- no -- 8 : Okay. Sorry. 9 : I mean, you should 10 read it, too. 11 : Just, I pointed to the line 12 that states, on the day watch for Friday, 13 August 9th, there's a line that says, "Inmate 14 Fernandez, 86824054 on dry cell with staff 15 watch in R&D." Is R- Agent asked a question. 16 : So, with this knowledge 17 and now also, with like I showed you - or first 18 of all, are count slips for RA and R&D, are 19 they the same thing? 20 : Well it should be just R&D. 21 There's - 22 : Because one was on one of 23 these - let me see. It's at 12:00 a.m. It 24 actually says, "RA." 25 : That should be a B. EFTA00060488 117 1 : Instead of a D? 2 : Yes. It should be a BA 3 which is on the second floor of persons placed 4 on watch, that's where they go. 5 : Should that - instead of 6 saying, "RA," -- 7 : So -. 8 : -- it should say, "BA?" 9 : Correct. If it's 10 : Because that -. 11 : If it's there. But they 12 probably wrote R&D. 13 : Well, it doesn't - so 14 this one says R&D. At 10:00 p.m. there's a 15 count slip from R&D that says, "1." It says 16 that's 17 , yes. 18 : 10:00 p.m. And just from 19 reviewing this stuff, I'm assuming that this 20 one at 10:00 p.m. and this one that says, "RA," 21 at 12:00 a.m. are one in the same. Would that 22 be your logic as well? 23 : Yes. It should have the 24 same number. 25 : So why is it - one say, EFTA00060489 118 1 "RA" and one say "R&D?" 2 : Maybe he spelled the name - 3 spelled it wrong. 4 : All right, so the "RA" is 5 the one that's wrong? 6 : It should have been "R&D." 7 : R&D. 8 : Correct. 9 : Instead of RA. Okay. So 10 this RA is just - but that - you believe that's 11 actually the same 12 : Yes. 13 : -- the same location. 14 : Yes. 15 : All right. So with all 16 that information now, knowing that he's in dry 17 cell, he's out of the SHU, however somehow, 18 their count slips are matching what the 19 institutional counts show, how do we explain 20 that if they don't have access to the 21 institutional count? 22 : Well they shouldn't have 23 access. 24 : Is there a way that they 25 can? Like how would they know to write that EFTA00060490 119 1 number if only, for instance - let's even just 2 talk about 12:00 a.m. Only 72 people are 3 physically in the SHU but they're writing 73 4 and they're off ever since you leave. So 4:00 5 p.m. 6 : 10:00 p.m. 7 : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 8 a.m. counts are all off and we're trying to - 9 this is where we're saying we're hoping that as 10 the OIC you can help us 11 : So -- 12 : -- put that puzzle 13 together. 14 : -- my only assumption would 15 be, whoever was working that night, had access 16 to the E-1, which is that's what we use. 17 : And do you know if - I 18 think you said it was, what, • 19 Who was it that was 20 : I don't think 21 would have access. 22 : But they're not actually 23 supposed to have access? 24 : Correct. 25 : So yeah, I'm just trying EFTA00060491 120 1 to -- 2 : And -. 3 : -- rectify this thing. 4 : Unless they cheated and 5 said, "Hey, how many do we have up here?" 6 That's my only - it's either they had access, 7 they looked at it. 8 : Because we've also been 9 told at least by one of these people that they 10 write the count slips before ever doing the 11 count. So how would they know what number to 12 put in the count slips if they didn't actually 13 do the count? 14 : So they shouldn't and my 15 other explanation is they actually did have the 16 bodies, but one of them was in SHU and was 17 never written on the log. So now, there's this 18 other thing called a PP-38 that shows who goes 19 in and outside of the building and what moves 20 are being made inside the building. 21 : So would that help us 22 rectify this? 23 : That would actually help 24 you because it would - that's our little cheat 25 sheet, like I told you before, that we log in EFTA00060492 121 1 during the day or right before I get relieved 2 at 2 o'clock, I'm going to print out that PP- 3 38, it's going to show me every inmate movement 4 in the building and whatever specific date I 5 wanted. So if I'm doing today, three from SHU 6 just saying, "Left to another institution, to 7 Brooklyn." On that PP-38, it would say, 8 "Jones, Smith, Roberts moved to Brooklyn." So 9 now, I go that, I have 757, I just lost three. 10 Now I'm going down to 754. And just like it is 11 here, inmate 123 left to Brooklyn so now my 12 numbers go down. Again, we're all human, 13 sometimes there's a lot of movement, we might 14 miss one or two. So this right here -. 15 : But if these numbers 16 appear to all add up starting the day at 77 -- 17 : Correct. 18 : I showed you at 5:00 19 a.m., then I can show you all the way through 20 after Epstein, you know, died, where I'm 21 assuming they definitely did the counts because 22 there's a - here's one that was done at 11:00 23 a.m., I guess that was the 10:00 a.m. count on 24 Saturday -- 25 : On Saturday, yes. EFTA00060493 122 1 : -- as well as the 5:00 2 p.m. count on Saturday. They're now all adding 3 up with what the numbers claim to be on this 4 Lieutenant's log. So, I'm assuming if they 5 were wrong on the Lieutenant's log and right on 6 this, that would be reflected in these later 7 counts, correct? 8 : Yes. Yes. 9 : So that - so I'll 10 definitely get this document that you just 11 suggested, but does this information suggest to 12 you that the counts were or were not conducted 13 in the SHU? 14 : I think they were conducted 15 wrong. If the names - the only way I would 16 actually confirm it is the 38. Because an 17 inmate could be in SHU, he's already keyed in 18 SHU. Maybe he's on staff watch, it's still in 19 SHU. 20 : Right. 21 : So there's no need to key 22 him out. 23 : And the 38 will be able 24 to tell you this? 25 : Correct. The 38 will be EFTA00060494 123 1 able to tell you if inmate Smith, inmate 2 , was keyed out of SHU. 3 : Okay. Now -. 4 : And it would reflect on 5 this. So if the 38 - if you keyed out an 6 inmate, the count would be different. It would 7 be 75 and that's a hundred percent accurate 8 comparing everything. 9 : Yeah, so in talking with 10 the Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant that was on at 11 midnight, that person said, "Fernandez was 12 never keyed out," and that's why the counts 13 were off, and she keyed him out at midnight and 14 placed him over. Does that give you any more 15 indication? 16 : So, that means -- 17 : So, (Indiscernible 18 *01:31:29). 19 : -- the counts weren't 20 conducted correctly -- 21 : Yeah, so -- 22 -- until -. 23 • so the Ops Lieutenant 24 at midnight says, "Hey, I found this 25 discrepancy. This inmate Fernandez was place EFTA00060495 124 1 on dry cell. I had to verify that that's in 2 fact where the person was. I had to key him 3 out of SHU and place him into there." 4 : That's the reason you got a 5 later 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- out count for R&D. 8 : Yeah. That's the reason 9 for the change at midnight. 10 : Yes. 11 : And that, to me, tells me 12 that's the reason why all these counts were 13 actually wrong. 14 : Correct. And they were 15 just written - somebody must have had access to 16 this and -. 17 : Right. But as far as you 18 know, no one actually knows how many inmates 19 are actually in there unless you actually count 20 them? 21 : Correct. You have to count 22 them. 23 : Yes. 24 : You can't assume -. 25 : That's - so it would just EFTA00060496 125 1 kind of like them trying to keep track or 2 something on a piece of paper doing adding and 3 subtracting? Would that be a possible way that 4 they would get the count that they're using? 5 : So, the way you count -. 6 : If they're not actually 7 counting, and they're 8 : They're assuming -. 9 : -- just - because -- 10 : They're - they're 11 : -- one of these people, 12 again, told us, "I write the count slips before 13 I ever do the counts." 14 : So, if that person has 15 access or that person just assumes that the 16 count that started in the morning - because we 17 don't count at 10 o'clock in the morning during 18 Monday through Friday -- 19 : Yeah. 20 : -- unless it's a holiday. 21 : Right. 22 : So if the count at 5 23 o'clock in the morning was 75, not me 24 personally, the person could have said, "I'm 25 going to go with that count unless I see EFTA00060497 126 1 somebody leaving," and just -- 2 : So -. 3 : -- it is a possibility that 4 person, he or she, could have wrote it. 5 : So, for instance, at the 6 4:00 p.m. count, someone would have gone off of 7 the 5:00 a.m. count -- 8 : In the morning, yes. 9 : -- and just how many 10 people they remembered that came and went? 11 : Correct. 12 : As a - okay. But it's 13 not like they knew what the institutional count 14 would actually have been. 15 : Correct, unless whoever was 16 there had access to this. 17 : So let's look at the 4:00 18 p.m. then. 19 : And this is called the PP- 20 El. 21 : So at 4:00 p.m. count, 22 this is August 9th. That's ZA, it looks like 23 it was signed by who? 24 : Noel and 25 : Does have access? EFTA00060498 127 1 : That I wouldn't be able to 2 tell you if he did or didn't. He has more time 3 than she does. So it could have been a 4 possibility that he had access. 5 : Okay. And being that 6 this number lists 75 whereas we believe it 7 should have been 74 -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- do you believe that 10 they actually conducted that count? 11 : My - I would give them the 12 benefit of the doubt that they did. 13 : Okay. And how would the 14 come - if they actually did, how would they get 15 the wrong number and specifically the number 16 that the institution had? 17 : They didn't have everybody 18 stand up and just assumed that they were right. 19 : So I guess that's what 20 I'm asking is, if they actually didn't conduct 21 the count, (Indiscernible *01:34:37) -. 22 : They could have just walked 23 around, looked in but not actually -. 24 : And that's what I mean, 25 and that's where in the beginning I was saying, EFTA00060499 128 1 "What's the difference between a count and a 2 round," so a count, you're actually counting 3 the inmates, correct? 4 : So the way you're supposed 5 to do -. 6 : Not just conducting a 7 round. 8 : Correct. If you're doing a 9 stand up count which every count is a stand up 10 count, you stand at the door, acknowledge your 11 presence, stand up count, okay, is 12 standing up, Smith is standing up, that's two. 13 I go all the way around, I do that to every 14 single cell, the eight cells. By the time I 15 get to the end, I counted 15, I write 15. Then 16 the next person behind me has to do the same 17 exact thing. Most likely, they start from this 18 way, the opposite way and not - and actually 19 count and you confirm the number, "I got 15, 20 how many you got?" "I got 14." "Oh, okay, now 21 we got to count again." Everybody stand up. 22 Now we have the same count, write down 15, we 23 go down to next tier. That's how a count 24 should be conducted. 25 : Okay. But is that how EFTA00060500 129 1 they were conducted in the SHU? 2 3 we were there. 4 : That's how I did them when : Okay. So as far as this 5 one though, if they actually conducted the 6 count, and I get that you're giving them the 7 benefit of the doubt, would you find it 8 extremely coincidental that they got the same 9 number that the institution had which were both 10 wrong? 11 : So if they did conduct the 12 count, they would have had the numbers wrong 13 from the institution. 14 : So the institution had it 15 wrong and they have everybody keyed and the one 16 guy never was keyed out. 17 : So, the institution -. 18 : And they just 19 coincidentally got the same exact number that 20 the institution had. 21 : So if the institution - the 22 institution would only know if it was keyed 23 out. 24 : That's what I'm saying. 25 That's what I'm saying. EFTA00060501 130 1 : Correct. 2 : So the institution didn't 3 know because somebody didn't key out Fernandez. 4 : They probably -. 5 : But -. 6 : They probably fucked up and 7 didn't actually count and just wrote it - it 8 comes down to that. Excuse my language, but -. 9 : No, then that's what I'm 10 assuming happened but I just want - I want to 11 know from you, why? Why do you believe that? 12 : Laziness maybe. 13 : No, no, no, no, no, why 14 do you - so, why do you believe -. 15 : So sorry. 16 : What makes you believe 17 that the count wasn't conducted? I basically 18 gave you the answer. But, like, I'm just 19 looking for you, if you're agreeing with my 20 logic and if that actually is the same logic 21 you have. I'm not trying to provide you that 22 answer, I'm just trying to see, like, "Hey, in 23 your -." 24 : So they -. 25 : You're the OIC, you're EFTA00060502 131 1 the expert in this matter basically. Does this 2 information tell you that that count wasn't 3 done? 4 : Yes. It does tell me that 5 the count was not done and they just assumed 6 and went by the cheat sheet 7 : Okay. 8 : -- because the body wasn't 9 even there. 10 : But going back to what 11 you said before, they don't actually have a 12 cheat sheet, they'd have to just kind of guess? 13 : Go off the count that was 14 at 5 o'clock in the morning if it was the same 15 number. Or they logged in where there was -. 16 : And there's no log that 17 can - there's no screen that they can say who's 18 logged into this right now, who's there, what's 19 our total count in here? 20 : No, it's just a - E - well, 21 that, no, that part, because I can log in and 22 tell you how much - how many inmates every unit 23 has right now. 24 : Because you're a 25 Lieutenant. EFTA00060503 132 1 : Without physically 2 counting. Yes. 3 : But what about the people 4 that work in the SHU? 5 : If you work Control before, 6 you would have that access. 7 : Right. Oh, so if you've 8 been in Control prior to that date. 9 : Correct. You would have 10 access. 11 : So, if for instance, if 12 worked in Control, he could have access 13 - 14 : Yes. 15 : -- to see, what's the 16 number. 17 : If she worked in Control 18 two days prior, she would have access because 19 that's what you do in Control. You 20 : When you say, "She," are 21 you talking about Tova Noel? 22 : Correct, Noel. If she 23 worked in Control before, she would have 24 access, and the reason they give us access - 25 well, all the Lieutenants have access, but the EFTA00060504 133 1 reason they give the officers access is because 2 you work in Control and you have to print out 3 this sheet, which is the E-1 that gives all the 4 numbers of all the units. 5 : Okay. 6 : So if worked there 7 before, he would have access and he would have, 8 you know 9 : Would he have indefinite 10 access? When do they take that access away? 11 : Usually when we have 12 program review and unless you're assigned to 13 Control, you cannot have access -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- and they just take it 16 back from you. 17 : All right. So is it - am 18 I understanding correctly, likely someone 19 worked in Control and had access and they 20 looked to see what the institutional count was 21 and they just wrote that down? 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. But you do believe 24 that this - what did you call it, 38, is 25 : PP-38. EFTA00060505 134 1 -- will help us? 2 : That has more - that paper 3 would not lie. 4 : And is that paper what 5 the Lieutenants use to fill out their logs? 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. And as far as the 8 Lieutenant log goes though, that could have 9 been created at any time though during the day 10 and specifically after all the stuff actually 11 happened? 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. And would it 14 be likely that it was created once the 15 Lieutenant at midnight actually noticed this 16 discrepancy, would they have the ability to go 17 in and then correct everything? 18 : Yes. So now we have a day 19 watch Lieutenant log, an evening watch 20 Lieutenant log, and a morning watch Lieutenant 21 log. 22 : So would this - would the 23 - let's say, would the morning watch at 24 midnight have access to the day before 25 Lieutenant log? EFTA00060506 135 1 2 3 4 : Yes. : So they -- : Yes. : -- could actually go in - 5 so the person 6 : And fix it. 7 : -- that worked at 8 midnight on August 10th could have gone into 9 August 9th and fixed everything? 10 : Correct, the discrepancies 11 on the numbers. 12 : Okay. 13 : Yes. 14 : All right. 15 : Or correct based on the 38. 16 : Right. And they probably 17 referenced the 38 to fill out the -- 18 19 20 : Yes, because if you saw : -- Lieutenant's log. : -- on the 38 you had - 21 again, let's say Fernandez wasn't on the 22 Lieutenant's log but then on the 38 you saw 23 that he moved to R&D, you go back and key him 24 out because the numbers have to be accurate by 25 the time of every shift, the ending of every EFTA00060507 136 1 shift. 2 : Right. And when we read 3 this for this Fernandez on dry cell with staff 4 watching R&D, is it possible that Fernandez was 5 in SHU dry watch and then later in the day 6 moved to R&D dry watch? 7 : He could have went from a 8 unit into dry watch or Special Housing, SHU, to 9 dry watch. 10 : How does that typically 11 work? If you're on dry watch, is there a 12 reason for them to bring you from the SHU on 13 dry watch to R&D on dry watch or would it 14 typically just go right from the SHU to dry 15 watch in R&D? 16 : It would go - there's no 17 reason to take you out of SHU -- 18 : Yeah, why would -. 19 : -- unless you're short 20 staffed. 21 : Okay. 22 : If there's two -. 23 : So in this case, do you 24 believe they were short staffed? 25 : Yes, because there was only EFTA00060508 137 1 two officers and one on morning watch. 2 : Okay. And morning watch, 3 right. So what about the day watch? 4 : Then you're supposed to 5 have four officers in SHU during the day. If 6 it would have been three, then removing one 7 officer would have left it with just two 8 officers in SHU. So if you have just three 9 officers and I'm going to put, for example, 10 Officer to do dry watch and I'm 11 sitting there and I cannot move, I have to 12 watch this inmate throughout the whole day. 13 : So with that being said, 14 do you believe it's more likely than not that 15 he was moved to the dry cell in R&D at 3, 16 whatever time we 17 18 said it was, 3:15? : It could have been. : Or because it does 19 because at 3:15, it says, "Fernandez -- 20 21 22 from ZA." 23 24 25 he left. : From. : -- placed on dry cell : SHU, that's SHU. : So to me, it looks like EFTA00060509 138 1 : So, he was -. 2 : So according to this, 3 it's saying he left -- 4 : SHU. 5 : SHU. 6 : Yes. So he should have 7 been keyed out from Special Housing -- 8 : And who was -- 9 : -- at that time. 10 : -- responsible for keying 11 him out? 12 : Control or the OIC in SHU. 13 : And who would have been 14 the OIC at that time after you left? 15 : At that time, it should 16 have been because he came in at 4:00. 17 No. , he had - would have been more 18 experienced because he worked that floor, so if 19 anything, it should have been , but 20 anybody from SHU could call Control, "Control, 21 I just lost Fernandez," in that case, "Key him 22 out for me." "Okay." 23 : Okay. So the people that 24 are in the SHU may not have been able to do it 25 themselves is what you're saying? EFTA00060510 139 1 : Correct. 2 : So they should have 3 contacted Control? 4 5 6 made that 7 : Yes. : And Control should have : Made that change, yes. 8 : All right. 9 : But now, Control cannot 10 make the change if they do not know about it. 11 : Right. And in this case, 12 we know that that key - the key - he wasn't 13 keyed out until midnight -- 14 : Correct. 15 -- so likely that 16 notification wasn't made. 17 : Right. They probably just 18 took him down to R&D, like if he was leaving 19 the building, made out count for him and just 20 forgot about him. 21 : And that 38 would verify 22 if Fernandez in fact was gone from the SHU at 23 3:15 p.m.? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. So we got to get EFTA00060511 140 1 that 38. 2 : Where can we access that 38? 3 : On SENTRY. 4 : SENTRY has it? 5 : Yes. 6 : All right. Is there 7 anything else before we move on, kind of -. 8 : You covered that. 9 : We kind of really covered 10 it. I just wanted to make sure. That was kind 11 of the primary reason for - I wanted to make 12 sure what your opinion was on that whole thing 13 and specifically if that indicates to you that 14 those counts were not actually conducted. And 15 again, for my understanding, from your 16 response, you believe now that they were not 17 conducted, correct? 18 : Correct. 19 : And that's if 20 was in fact moved at 3:15. 21 : Right. 22 : All right. Just, I know 23 there's a lot of documents. Can you just make 24 sure that whatever we reviewed here, just 25 initialing, date the tops of them. EFTA00060512 141 1 2 Now, right? 3 : Did you show him the 5:30? : Yeah, because I showed 4 him that that was the good count for the 5 counts. It started that day. 6 : You got one more. 7 : It's been pain in the ass, 8 man. 9 : Yes, it has. 10 : Excuse me. 11 : Again, it's just -- 12 : Excuse me, guys. 13 : -- you know, there's a 14 lot of documents that we talked about. 15 : Just like, man. 16 : All right. So, how oft- 17 being that we believe now that those counts 18 were falsified by staff working the SHU, how 19 often were counts falsified by staff in the SHU 20 and was this a common practice? 21 : See, that happened four 22 years in and I was just working the SHU for 23 about almost, I would say, six months. So from 24 - again, when I started working in the SHU, it 25 was six of us throughout during the day. By EFTA00060513 142 1 the time I got out of SHU, it was three of us. 2 So when I - it's human nature, people get lazy, 3 but the whole time that I was there, I didn't 4 hear about, "Oh, this guy is going to write the 5 rounds," or, "This guy is going to count," and 6 just give in the slips. So, again, I was 7 pretty new in SHU. 8 and when I counted 9 with somebody. 10 I've always worked the unit the unit, I had to count : Did anyone ever, since 11 you were new to the unit, ever tell you, "Oh, 12 this is the way we do it in SHU, we don't 13 actually do counts." 14 : No. No. : So you -. : I worked with pretty - some 15 16 17 solid guys then. 18 : So do you know of anybody 19 that were falsifying their counts? 20 : No. 21 : Would it surprise you if 22 those people we just discussed, 23 guess it's since Noel was 24 surprise you if falsified specifically I new, would it a count? 25 , I don't think he EFTA00060514 143 1 would. 2 : You don't think he would 3 falsify it. 4 : I don't think he would 5 falsify a count. 6 : All right. 7 : Noel, I didn't know too 8 much. 9 : But being that we, you 10 know, somehow they miraculously get the same 11 number that the institution had because 12 wasn't keyed out, that does make you 13 believe that it was falsified, correct? 14 : I don't know how to answer 15 that. I would hope not. I really would hope 16 not, but it's kind of too easy to figure out. 17 : Right. 18 : Again, I think -. 19 : So the evidence suggests 20 he did, you just hope it's not -. 21 : Correct. 22 : Okay. 23 : Correct. 24 : So, but knowing him, 25 there's no reason for you to believe that -. EFTA00060515 144 1 : That he actually did 2 falsify. 3 : Right. So you don't 4 believe him to be a very dishonest person. 5 : Correct. And he left work, 6 at 10 o'clock because he relieved me from 2:00 7 to 10:00, so. 8 : Right. So is he - he's a 9 good employee otherwise? 10 : Yes. He would have did the 11 4 o'clock count. He should do the 10 o'clock 12 count, but sometimes we leave at 9:50. 13 : Sure. 14 : And then, there's always 15 two people left, so the two people could 16 conduct the count. 17 : Is still here at 18 the MCC? 19 : Yes. 20 : What's his current 21 position? 22 : He's a Senior Officer. 23 : Senior Officer 24 Specialist? Okay. 25 : Just a Senior Officer. EFTA00060516 145 1 : Just Senior Officer? 2 Okay. So do you recall what conversations you 3 had with SHU staff who worked on August 9, 4 2019, including Michael Thomas and Tova Noel 5 about making entries related to counts and 6 rounds? So, specifically what I'm asking here 7 is that you're the OIC. Do you remember any 8 conversations that you would have had with any 9 of the people that worked in the SHU? 10 : Well, I didn't see Noel. 11 : I don't mean 12 : The 9th? 13 : I don't mean on the 9th - 14 15 : Like -. 16 -- people that worked on 17 the 9th, did you ever have conversations with 18 the people that worked on the 9th about, "Make 19 sure you're doing it correctly and this is how 20 it's supposed to be done." 21 : I do, I would say, "Do what 22 you're supposed to do," as I'm leaving. 23 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 24 25 you got to do." "Don't fuck it up. Do what EFTA00060517 146 1 : And do you follow what 2 I'm saying though? I'm not saying that you 3 would have had a conversation with them on the 4 9th. I'm saying 5 : Like in general? 6 : -- of the people that 7 worked on the 9th. So these people are the 8 ones like Noel, , you know, these 9 are the people that actually worked on the 9th. 10 Ever leading up to the 9th, so any day leading 11 up to the 9th, would have you had a 12 conversation with them to say, "Make sure 13 you're doing your rounds and counts correctly." 14 : Yep. I'm sure I've told 15 them - because everybody wants to work SHU. 16 SHU is a pain in the butt, but, if you want to 17 work SHU, you got to do your rounds and do your 18 stuff how you're supposed to do it. 19 : All right. Can you 20 remember any specific conversations or when 21 those conversations would have taken place? 22 : Probably walking around, 23 talking to them, seeing or or 24 anybody. Thomas has been working for the 25 Bureau for a very long time, even before I did, EFTA00060518 147 1 so he's worked SHU before and he knows what to 2 do in SHU. 3 : Right. 4 : But he's not - he works in 5 a different department. But 6 : What about the newer 7 people like 8 : Newer people? Everybody -. 9 : Tova Noel? She's 10 newer to the - it was her quarterly bided post, 11 you're the OIC, do you know if you had any 12 conversations with her or would have you? 13 : I would have said, "Do what 14 you got to do. Don't fuck it up for us." Just 15 like that. But that's just the way I speak. 16 : When you say, "Do what 17 you got to do," though, what does that mean? 18 : Follow the rules and do 19 what's according to policy. 20 : Okay. So not, do what 21 you got to do, it's like, do what you're 22 supposed to do. 23 : Do - do - yeah, I should 24 have rephrased it a little bit, but that's the 25 way I speak to everybody -- EFTA00060519 148 1 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2 : -- so it's pretty much, 3 we're cool, but I'm still telling you to do 4 what you have to do based on the policy, make 5 sure you don't do anything that's not supposed 6 - that you're not supposed to - against policy. 7 If it's in black and white, that's how you got 8 to do it. 9 : Okay. And do you recall 10 ever saying that to Tova Noel being that she 11 was newer? 12 : That's - I'm sure I - 13 because again, I speak like that to everybody. 14 : Okay. 15 : Even now as Lieutenant, I 16 talk to you more as a co-worker than, "I'm your 17 supervisor." 18 : Sure. 19 : But I always tell everyone, 20 "Do your job. It's simple, just do your job." 21 : And I know I'm hammering 22 this, but I mean, are you confident you would 23 have had that conversation -- 24 : Yes. 25 : -- with Tova Noel? EFTA00060520 149 1 : Yes. 2 : Or -- 3 : Yes. 4 -- would have you had 5 that conversation with Michael Thomas being 6 that he's not typically a -. 7 : Probably not. 8 : No? 9 : Just because he has way 10 more time than I do. 11 : Okay. What about 12 , the same thing, he 13 worked with us in SHU I think before that or 14 maybe after. He got - I was the SHU OIC during 15 the day and he was the SHU OIC at night. 16 : Okay. So 17 : So -. 18 : -- knew what to do. 19 : Yes. 20 : And he knew the right way 21 to do it. 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. And what about 24 25 was EFTA00060521 150 1 pretty new. Excuse me. He was pretty new and 2 I think he already worked for the warehouse. 3 : Okay. 4 : So, same thing. 5 : So -- 6 do-. 7 : -- if was working, 8 was the OIC at night? 9 : Yes. 10 : So would do you 11 believe, have had that conversation with 12 13 : Yes. 14 : To do what's -. 15 : Same thing with , he 16 would have, "Hey, do the right thing." 17 : Okay. And you didn't 18 work on August 10th you said, correct? 19 : Correct. 20 : Is there any way you 21 would have been able to know if the counts on 22 August 10th were correct? 23 : No. 24 : No. 25 : No way. EFTA00060522 151 1 : What - I know we just 2 talked about it, but what is the daily 3 Lieutenant's log? 4 : It's a log that we have in 5 the system that every Lieutenant has to pretty 6 much fill out every single day and make sure 7 it's accurate right before their shift ends. 8 : Does a Lieutenant have 9 their own Lieutenant's log or is it an overall 10 Lieutenant's log? 11 : It's an overall 12 Lieutenant's log. 13 : So every Lieutenant has 14 access to that same log. 15 : Correct, it's on the share 16 drive. 17 : So I was going to say, 18 where can it be found and accessed? What's the 19 share drive? 20 : The share drive, you log 21 into - well, here in this building, you log in, 22 you go to I think it's the G drive, double 23 click and you're going to see Lieutenant's log. 24 : So is it just like a 25 document and you'd go into like a shared folder EFTA00060523 152 1 or would it be on something like a SENTRY or 2 BOPWARE? 3 : Shared folder. 4 : A shared folder? So just 5 a document that you create every day 6 : Yes. 7 : -- and you - so it's not 8 actually in a system? 9 : No. 10 : All right. 11 : It's in a shared folder. 12 It's not like on TRUSCOPE or SENTRY or anything 13 like that. 14 : And at the end of the 15 day, is that then uploaded into some kind of 16 BOP system? 17 : It stays on the drive and 18 once you log in, you open the Lieutenant's log, 19 you make the changes to the number, you save it 20 and every day it gets saved. 21 : Okay. And is there 22 anything that's done with that though? Is it 23 then uploaded into something or it just stays 24 in the share folder? 25 : It stays in the shared EFTA00060524 153 1 folder, from my knowledge. 2 : Okay. And does anyone 3 aside from Lieutenants have access to change 4 that log? 5 : No, just the - well, the 6 Captain, the AW and the Warden. 7 : Yeah. 8 : But -. 9 : So Lieutenants and above? 10 : Correct. 11 : Nobody below a 12 Lieutenant? 13 : Nobody below Lieutenant. 14 : What about the people in 15 Control? 16 : No, they don't have access 17 to that. 18 : So even Control doesn't - 19 - 20 21 22 23 24 25 : No. : -- can't manipulate -- : No. : -- the Lieutenant's log? : Correct. : Okay. And I don't know EFTA00060525 154 1 that you'll be able to answer this, but are the 2 times listed on the Lieutenant's log that you 3 just reviewed accurate? 4 : I don't know. 5 : Is it all based upon 6 whoever is entering it? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Is there any kind 9 of a verifying process? Like does anybody 10 oversight over that to kind of audit the 11 documents? 12 : The only way you could 13 verify it and the only thing would be the 14 moves. So if inmate movement in the 15 institution, you could verify it because you go 16 to the PP-38. 17 : And who creates that 18 document, the 38? 19 : The 38? You would call 20 Control, "Inmate Joe Smith left today." Or, 21 "Inmate Joe Smith was in 11 South, he was 22 moved." "Okay." I could call downstairs at 23 10:30, that's the time he moved, but it could 24 be off within a couple of - it could be off a 25 few minutes -- EFTA00060526 155 1 2 3 key it in. 4 So even -. : -- because Control has to : All right, so, that's 5 something that's created by Control. But what 6 we just said, we were going to use that to 7 verify if Fernandez left at 3:15, if the people 8 in the SHU never called Control to log 9 Fernandez out, would that be listed on the 38? 10 : No. 11 : So therefore, that might 12 not actually be the accurate document because 13 if they didn't call, the PP-38 wouldn't 14 (Indiscernible *01:55:27). 15 : The 38 would only verify 16 the movement and the time that it was keyed in. 17 : That it was keyed. 18 : Correct. 19 : So if it wasn't keyed 20 until midnight, which 21 : Then -. 22 : -- what the Lieutenant 23 said, like, "I found out that this person moved 24 earlier and he's actually in a different 25 location, I needed to make that key change at EFTA00060527 156 1 midnight." 2 : The time that he -- 3 : That's what -- 4 : -- actually moved? 5 : -- reflected on the 38. 6 : Correct. Because it's the 7 time, not the time it was keyed in the 8 Lieutenant's log 9 : All right. So there -. 10 : -- because I can change 11 those logs. 12 : So in this instance, the 13 38 would actually be incorrect if he wasn't 14 keyed out when he actually moved. 15 Correct. It wouldn't be 16 anything because he was never keyed. 17 : All right. So therefore, 18 this 38 actually would make it even more 19 confusing. 20 : Not really because it would 21 tell you if he got moved and at what time he 22 got moved. 23 : All right. So the 38 24 would list probably the same thing in the 25 Lieutenant's log, that's at midnight, Fernandez EFTA00060528 157 1 was moved at 3:15 p.m. to dry - from ZA. 2 : So the 38 would have the 3 actual time he was keyed in. 4 : Yeah, the keyed. 5 : So it would show you - 6 let's say the Lieutenant said she didn't find 7 out or he didn't find out until midnight that 8 this inmate, Fernandez, was moved and never 9 keyed out. She keys him out, now the date on 10 the 38 would be August 10th because it's after 11 midnight. 12 : Right. 13 : August 10th, 1:45 in the 14 morning, that's what the 38 would say. But on 15 the log, it would say he got moved at 3:30, 16 because that's when -. 17 : In the Lieutenant's log. 18 : Correct. 19 : So in this case, probably 20 the Lieutenant's log is the more accurate one. 21 : Yes. 22 : All right. Good to know. 23 : Just had a question. If 24 you're moving an inmate, right, doesn't the 25 outer doors of the SHU have to be buzzed by EFTA00060529 158 1 Control? 2 : Yes. 3 : When Control - does Control 4 have eyes on -- 5 : Yes. 6 : -- on - wouldn't they see an 7 inmate being moved? 8 : Yes. 9 : And wouldn't they question, 10 "How come he's not keyed in?" 11 : Well, depending on the 12 time. So like when let's say it was between 8 13 o'clock in the morning and 2 o'clock in the 14 afternoon, inmates are going in and out, in and 15 out, even SHU, like medical, dental, court, 16 attorney visits. So now you have six, seven 17 inmates going in and out, not at all times 18 you're looking, "Oh, is an inmate coming out," 19 they pop - you know, you call for the door. 20 You probably could just open the door right 21 there, but then have to run to the window, give 22 somebody a set of keys. 23 : Okay. And then just to 24 clarify on that same question. If that PP-38 25 will show the key in time of when the EFTA00060530 159 1 Lieutenant puts it in, what do you think the 2 Lieutenant or whoever updated that document got 3 the 3:15 time? 4 : Or she called R&D and said, 5 "Hey, what time this inmate got downstairs?" 6 "Oh, he came around 3:30." "All right. Well, 7 you should have told me, you know, key him 8 out," or whatever. 9 : At midnight, would that 10 employee that was on shift during evening watch 11 still be on there? 12 : Yep. 13 : What was that last 14 question? Was what? 15 : The employee in R&D, would 16 that person still be on shift at midnight. 17 : What is the time for the 18 shifts -- 19 : So, it would be -. 20 : -- in R&D? 21 : The shifts are 4:00 to 22 12:00, 4:00 to midnight. But usually, if 23 you're on dry cell -- 24 : Yeah. 25 -- watching somebody, you EFTA00060531 160 1 would not leave exactly at midnight. You would 2 leave a couple of minutes after unless you were 3 doing a double doing dry cell. 4 : All right. Let's talk - 5 the fact that that this guy wasn't 6 specifically tied to Epstein, is there any 7 chance two years later we're going to be able 8 to talk to anybody to verify when he got to the 9 dry cell? 10 : No. He probably is not 11 even in the institution anymore, 12 : That's what I mean. So 13 like even talking to R&D, do you think that 14 there's any way that they'd even remember when 15 this guy placed down there? 16 : No, because who knows who 17 was in R&D that day, who knows if they're still 18 working here. 19 : But what about, like for 20 instance, we have the count slips at least for 21 10:00 p.m. Actually, where there was no count 22 slip for him at 4:00 p.m. but we have the count 23 slips for R&D and RA at 10:00 p.m. and 24 midnight. Do you believe that even they would 25 be able to recall if it was that they EFTA00060532 161 1 watched? 2 : No. No. 3 : And why is that? 4 : Just because a lot of 5 inmate movement. 6 : How reliable do you 7 believe that that Lieutenant log saying that he 8 left at 3:15, how reliable at this point, us 9 looking at it back then and the person making 10 that change potentially at midnight that night, 11 how reliable do you view that 3:15 time? 12 : If it's Lieutenant 13 that's - she's very by the book. I'm 14 not saying that everybody else is not. 15 : Right. 16 : But, and she knows her job. 17 : Do you -. 18 : So if, that would probably 19 be maybe the only Lieutenant, especially on 20 morning watch, that would catch a mistake like 21 that. 22 : Okay. 23 : And she - numbers didn't 24 add up, she went back and changed it, made it 25 accurate EFTA00060533 162 1 : Okay. And certainly you 2 believe that the institutional count was made 3 accurate by her, but what I guess I'm 4 specifically requesting, you know, wondering, 5 how accurate do you think she would have made 6 the movement of 3:15 moved ZA from - or moved 7 to dry cell from ZA? 8 : Very. 9 : Very? 10 : Very accurate, yes. 11 : So you believe that that 12 3:15 then is probably the right time? 13 : Around the time that he got 14 moved, yes. 15 : Okay. Sounds good. And 16 no one in the SHU has access to the 17 Lieutenant's log? 18 : No. 19 : All right. We're going 20 to move on now. 21 : Oh, sorry. 22 : What - no, I'm sorry, 23 this is - again, like I said, you're kind of 24 like - when I saw that one page interview 25 report, I was like, "Oh, this is the guy that, EFTA00060534 163 1 you know, has all the answers." But what is 2 the MCC policy on conducting cell searches in 3 the SHU? And let's specifically talk about, if 4 you can remember, in August. So in August of 5 2019, do you remember what the MCC policy was 6 on conducting cell searches in the SHU? 7 : You got to conduct cell 8 search every time an inmate comes out. I don't 9 know if that's actual policy or not. 10 : Was it something like 11 some of the shifts you had to do five cell 12 searches -- 13 : Per shift 14 : -- during that shift? 15 : Yes. 16 : Or if the person may be, 17 you know, in the day watch, maybe if someone 18 went to rec, you're supposed to -. 19 : So, the way we did it, you 20 came out to the shower, that was our cell 21 search. 22 : Okay. 23 : So, every Monday, Wednesday 24 and Friday we showered everybody, everybody's 25 cell was searched. EFTA00060535 164 1 : So every Monday, 2 Wednesday and Friday everyone's cell was 3 searched? 4 : Yes, because everybody got 5 a shower. So we took that as okay -. 6 : And officers would 7 actually go in and search their cells? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. And what about the 10 non-shower days, how would you do searches or 11 would you -. 12 : When somebody went to rec, 13 when somebody went to R&D, if somebody has to 14 go to medical, we'll bring you out and we 15 search the cell. 16 : Okay. And then, what is 17 the responsibility of the SHU OIC with regard 18 to SHU cell searches, if anything? 19 : To make sure they're logged 20 in and make sure they get conducted. 21 : Okay. So like, is the 22 OIC the one - were you the one that would 23 actually log them into like TRUSCOPE? 24 : Well, anybody could log 25 them in but most the time I did it or I was EFTA00060536 165 1 searching the cell myself. 2 : And what is the 3 responsibility of the SHU Lieutenant with 4 regard to cell searches, if any? 5 : To make sure the OIC got it 6 done. 7 : Okay. And were cell 8 searches being conducted and logged in to 9 TRUSCOPE for the SHU in August of 2019? 10 : They should have. Yes. 11 : All right. So we 12 requested to - just because we're going to get 13 into what was found in Epstein's cell later, 14 but you're the one who logged this in, but we 15 only found one cell search for June 9, 2019. 16 : August 9th. 17 : Or sorry, August 9 - is 18 that June 9th or August 9th? What does that 19 say? 20 : August 9th. 21 : Okay. August 9, 2019. 22 Does that - would that be normal that there 23 would only be one logged in? 24 : No. Again, it's depending 25 on what was going on during the day -. EFTA00060537 166 1 : So that would have been 2 one of those shower days, I guess, though. 3 : And I worked - yes, from 4 1:00 - I worked until 2 o'clock that day. 5 : But do you believe that 6 there was only one cell search conducted or do 7 you believe that there were more? 8 : There was one cell search 9 probably logged in. 10 : Okay. But all of them 11 were conducted? 12 : Should have been conducted, 13 yes. 14 : And do you believe that - 15 I know we're talking two years ago. Do you 16 believe that all of them were conducted? 17 18 19 : The majority. : Yeah. : The majority. 20 : Any reason - do you know 21 if Epstein's cell would have been searched on 22 August 9th? 23 : It should have been because 24 him and both left at the same time. 25 : Right. And who would EFTA00060538 167 1 have done that cell search? 2 • 3 shower. 4 ■ : Well, took them out to the : Okay. And is that like 5 everybody? Does everybody - how does that 6 work? Who 7 : So, technically the OIC is 8 not supposed to - he has the big set which is 9 the keys to the - on the ranges and the door 10 and everybody else goes in and out the tiers. 11 : Okay. 12 : But we were all involved. 13 We all moved inmates from this tier to another 14 tier. Okay, "You two on that side, okay, bring 15 them out," search their cell. If I'm on this 16 side, I'm going to bring them out, do the cell 17 search. 18 : Okay. And this isn't 19 I'm not trying to be an I gotcha, at all at any 20 moment, I'm just trying to get a greater 21 understanding. So if all of the cells were 22 searched, why would only one search be entered 23 for that day? 24 : I'm busy during the day. 25 : And was that like, does EFTA00060539 168 1 that happen often though, like it's too busy to 2 actually log the searches in? 3 : The system is kind of a 4 pain in the butt because you've got to do one 5 by one by one, you know, unless you do all of 6 them. I mean, unless you do one, then enter, 7 then another one and enter. It's not like you 8 could do multiple cell searches or click them 9 that you did them at one time. 10 : Okay. Now it's my 11 understanding that after you left, the night 12 watch is then responsible for conducting, on 13 every shift, five cell searches, correct? 14 : Yes. 15 : And who would have logged 16 that in? 17 : Anybody could have logged 18 it. 19 : Anyone? 20 : But it should be the OIC. 21 : So that would have been 22 who should have done that? 23 : Correct. Yes. 24 : All right. And does the 25 fact that you had your one that you entered EFTA00060540 169 1 earlier in the day, the fact that there's none 2 for the rest of the day, is that problematic in 3 your opinion? 4 : Not really because 5 throughout the day, we pretty much do the 6 showers. So we went into every single cell. 7 : Okay. 8 : Now maybe it should have 9 been keyed so it could reflect because if 10 there's no cameras, you can say, "Yeah, all 11 right," -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- you only did one because 14 you keyed in one. But, you know, they should 15 because they also have rec at night time. When 16 you bring back an inmate or you bring them out 17 to attorney visit, you're still bringing the 18 inmates out. 19 : Okay. 20 : So they should have been 21 keyed in. 22 : So although they were not 23 keyed in, do you believe that they were being 24 conducted on August 9, 2019? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060541 170 1 : Yes? 2 : Yes. 3 : What about after you 4 left, do you believe that there would have been 5 - the five cell searches would have been 6 conducted on 2019 at this point? 7 : They should have because I 8 know we had legal visits and maybe we had 9 regular like visits for the inmates with their 10 family members. 11 : Do you recall, what is 12 the policy at least in August of 2019 related 13 to what inmates are allowed to have in their 14 cells? 15 : Well, no contraband of 16 course. Five hard cover books only. 17 : What about like medical? 18 : Two sheets, one blanket. 19 If you have the CPAP machine, you can get that. 20 : How - and just for the 21 record, how do you spell that? What is it? 22 That machine? 23 : What, the CPAP? 24 : Is it CPAC or CPAP? 25 : CPAP, CPAP. EFTA00060542 171 1 : Is it for snoring? 2 : Yes. 3 : That's what you're 4 talking about? So you can breathe better? 5 : Yes. 6 : Okay. 7 : So CPAP, right? 8 : I actually don't know. 9 : Is it? 10 : That's why I was asking. 11 : Is it C-P-A-P? 12 : I think that's what it is. 13 Not even sure. But it was a machine that you 14 use to help you breathe in the middle of the 15 night -- 16 : I just know -. 17 18 it. 19 : (Indiscernible *02:08:22). : -- and you go to sleep with 20 : I just know the 21 transcriber for this would be like, "What the 22 heck is he saying?" 23 : Is that for sleep apnea? 24 : Yes. That's - I think it 25 helps you - it clears your whatever it is, your EFTA00060543 172 1 nose or your throat so you can be able to 2 breathe better in the middle of the night. 3 : And I did interrupt, I 4 apologize, when you were getting into the 5 linens. How many sheets and blankets and all 6 that? Can you 7 : It should be - if it's 8 August, it should be two sheets, one blanket. 9 : Two sheets, one blanket. 10 That's for each individual -- 11 : Yes. 12 • -- inmate. So, for each 13 cell, if there's two inmates, it would be four 14 sheets and two blankets. 15 : Correct. 16 : Okay. 17 : And the wintertime, it's 18 two sheets, two blankets. 19 : Okay. Was Epstein 20 authorized to have pills in his cell within the 21 SHU? 22 : Well, if you have 23 medication, yes, you can have your own 24 medication. 25 : And that's - okay. EFTA00060544 173 1 2 that. 3 : We don't set a number on : Who is responsible for 4 determining what medication inmates have? 5 : The Medical Department. 6 : And do they provide it to 7 them? 8 : Yes. 9 : And then they're able to 10 just keep it in their cell and take it? 11 : Yes. 12 : Is there ever a problem 13 with like overdose or anything like that? 14 : I mean, we've had inmates 15 take more than they're supposed to take. 16 : Is it dependent upon what 17 type of medication if they can have it in their 18 cell or not? 19 : So, certain medication, the 20 pill line, which is Medical, they'll come 21 around and give it to you daily if that's what 22 - you're only supposed to have it daily, 23 Medical Department will come around and give it 24 to the inmates themselves. 25 : Okay. EFTA00060545 174 1 : Anything else, if you have 2 your own medication, it would be in your cell. 3 : Okay. I'm going to just 4 show you some pictures of August 10th and I 5 just wanted, if you can just kind of let me 6 know what I'm looking at. Is this L Tier, is 7 that where Epstein would have been housed? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. And then another 10 picture of L Tier. This wasn't his cell there. 11 : No. 12 : Do you remember what cell 13 number he was in? 14 : I know exactly. It was the 15 first one to the right, 221 maybe? 16 : 221 or maybe 222 or 17 something? 18 : (Indiscernible *02:10:30). 19 : All right. I think it's 20 220, but is this his tier? 21 : That's L Tier, yes, here on 22 the right. 23 : Does this look like it 24 would have been - it looks like it would have 25 been 220. EFTA00060546 175 1 : Yeah. 2 : But would that have been 3 Epstein's cell? 4 : Yes. 5 : All right. So 220 was 6 the first door on the right when you're walking 7 down the -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- the tier? 10 : When you walk into - yes. 11 : All right. So, I want to 12 just - I'll let you look through these. Can 13 you just let me know if this looks like an 14 abnormal amount of linens and blankets and 15 clothing? And we don't know, so that's why 16 we're asking. And that's again, not a gotcha, 17 I don't know if it's more than should be or 18 what. 19 : No, I think this was his 20 and his bunkie's. 21 : So does that make you 22 believe that his bunkie's was never removed? 23 And when should have they been removed? 24 As soon as they figure out 25 that he's not coming back. EFTA00060547 176 1 : So at either 4:00 p.m. or 2 certainly before 8:00 p.m.? 3 : Yes. 4 : Would it have been when 5 Epstein was returned to attorney client visit, 6 definitely at that time, should have they made 7 sure -. 8 : Well, by 8 o'clock, they 9 should - while walking Epstein back into the 10 cell, they should have said, "Oh shit, he 11 doesn't have a bunkie," and, "Oh shit, his 12 bunkie is gone." 13 : All right. So by looking 14 at those photos, you just believe that that was 15 actually both Epstein and Reyes's? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. 18 : It probably -. 19 : So it does look like more 20 than one inmate so it looks like that would be 21 the amount of linens and clothing for two 22 inmates? 23 : Well, probably a couple of 24 extra sheets in there. 25 : And do you know if EFTA00060548 177 1 Epstein was provided extra sheets than he was 2 supposed to have been provided? 3 : He shouldn't have. 4 : Can you just explain to 5 me, how does that work? How does the process 6 7 : Well, when the inmate comes 8 into the Special Housing Unit, we give them two 9 sheets, one blanket. When they do the showers, 10 we should go in there - initial these two? 11 : Please. Not all of them, 12 we just need the top picture. 13 : When we should go - when we 14 go in there when we bring them out to the 15 shower, we should go in there and shake it 16 down, that's when we go in there and take 17 anything extra that they're not supposed to 18 have. 19 : So if he took a shower 20 that day on August 9th - so you believe from 21 looking at those pictures, he actually had even 22 more than if it were just him and , he had 23 some extra -- 24 : Yes, he probably had like 25 two extra blankets. EFTA00060549 178 1 : Is that an issue? 2 : They should never have 3 that. 4 : Okay. So, if that cell 5 was searched on August 9th, at that point, 6 someone should have removed them? 7 : Yes. Somebody should 8 remove all the extra, left him with what he's 9 supposed to have and nothing more. 10 : And on that date, who 11 would have been responsible for doing that? 12 : When we brought them out to 13 the shower. 14 : So not only do they bring 15 them out to the shower but they also are 16 responsible for (Indiscernible *02:13:15). 17 : Correct. Might as well. 18 If you're on the same tier, you put them in the 19 shower, it takes two seconds. 20 : So where is the shower? 21 Are the showers on the same tier? 22 23 24 : Yes. : Okay. : So on that tier, if you 25 look at his cell, right to the right. EFTA00060550 179 1 : So -. 2 : This is the shower here. 3 : Okay. Like there? 4 : Yeah. 5 : Okay. So it's kind of 6 like almost in the middle or the start is like 7 almost like the second door. 8 : Yes. 9 : This one? 10 : No, it's actually, see this 11 little gate? 12 : (Indiscernible 13 *02:13:46). 14 : You can't really see it. 15 : Can you see it from here? 16 : No. 17 : Like it's the start of 18 the tier? 19 : Yeah. So if you come in, 20 you walk in, you kind of make a right turn. 21 You see this gate right here? 22 : Maybe I'll have you - if 23 you can mark it on either SHU map here that 24 we're going to - I'm going to show you for a 25 second just so you can - I'm going to ask you EFTA00060551 180 1 about like the cameras and what cameras should 2 have been in there, that kind of stuff, so you 3 can just show me where. So do you know if 4 Epstein was provided any of these special 5 privileges to have extra clothing or linen? 6 : No, I know he should not 7 have. 8 : Okay. 9 : But he always asked for a 10 clean uniform every time he showered. 11 : Would he give his other 12 uniform -- 13 : Yes. 14 : -- back though? 15 : Yes. 16 : So what is your belief on 17 why he would have had extra blankets? 18 : Somebody who doesn't 19 normally work SHU just said, "Okay," or he 20 probably asked for one because he was cold. 21 : And how would people that 22 worked in the SHU know what the rules were with 23 as far as exchanging your linens and your 24 clothing? 25 : Well, we talk about it. EFTA00060552 181 1 Two sheets, one blanket. 2 3 training? 4 : Is that not provided at : I don't remember. I don't 5 think that's in the SHU training, but it also 6 tells you not to have an excess of linen inside 7 the SHU. 8 : The training does? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. So at training, 11 they do say they're not supposed to have, you 12 know, extra? 13 : Correct. 14 : And then, from working in 15 the SHU, would it be the OIC to tell people, 16 (Indiscernible *02:15:10). 17 : The OIC or anybody who kind 18 of -. 19 : Works in there? 20 : Because OIC is not always 21 there, so. 22 : All right. During 23 showers, who would have been working on August 24 9, 2019 looking at the daily assignment roster? 25 : Would have been EFTA00060553 182 1 , Monge and myself. 2 : Okay. As far as, did you 3 notice that there was an extra mattress in 4 Epstein's cell. 5 : There's one on the floor. 6 : Yes. We're told that 7 Epstein actually had two mattresses, one on the 8 floor, one on the bottom bunk and then 9 had one as well. Would that be abnormal that 10 he was provided two mattresses? 11 : Definitely shouldn't have 12 happened. Somebody probably felt bad for him 13 because he maybe said his back hurts. 14 : Do you know where Epstein 15 slept? 16 : Well, this only shows two 17 right here. 18 : It's the height of the 19 mattress. 20 : I think he slept on the bed 21 and slept on the floor. 22 : Oh, that's your belief? 23 : I think so. 24 : Oh, we were told the 25 opposite. EFTA00060554 183 1 : Opposite? 2 : So you believe was 3 actually on the floor? 4 : I think so. 5 : Okay. But if they had 6 if there in fact were three mattresses in there 7 8 : There weren't supposed to 9 be three mattresses in there. 10 : When and how would have 11 that happened? 12 : Maybe one of them wasn't 13 thick enough, somebody else gave him another 14 one or they just didn't see the mattress 15 because a lot of times, the inmates put it on 16 the wall and if you don't physically go inside 17 the cell, you just give them another mattress. 18 : So it - how would they 19 explain the fact that they didn't have a 20 mattress? 21 : One would be standing 22 against the wall. 23 : But, I mean, would they 24 say like somebody came in and took it? 25 : No, just sometimes we move EFTA00060555 184 1 mattresses around because we're going to put 2 two inmates over there. They only have one, 3 then we'll take it. 4 : Okay. Is that a big 5 problem if there are extra mattresses then? 6 : You're not supposed to, but 7 depending who is in charge that's there 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and at night time, if 10 you don't want to deal with it - well, not me 11 or - but if some people don't want to deal with 12 it, like, "All right, here's another mattress." 13 : So what's the purpose of 14 making sure that inmates only have one mattress 15 as well as the correct amount of linens and 16 blankets? 17 : Well, the linen because 18 just so we can have for everybody. The 19 mattress, the same thing, you only have one 20 mattress, that's all you're allowed. 21 : Are there any kind of 22 security issues that go along with it? 23 : Unless it's a troubled 24 inmate, they'll put the mattress to barricade 25 the door. EFTA00060556 185 1 : No, I mean like is there 2 any security issues that go along with making 3 sure an inmate doesn't have extra linens or 4 doesn't have extra blankets, is something, 5 like, to do with, like, potentially escaping or 6 harming themselves or anything like that. Is 7 that ever taught or do you know anything about 8 that? Or was it more of an administrative 9 thing? 10 : It's more an administrative 11 thing. 12 : Okay. So your 13 understanding was administrative, nothing to do 14 with like harming themselves or escaping. 15 : Right. I don't think the 16 mattress or linen have anything to do with 17 that. 18 : Okay. Who did you say 19 was responsible for making sure that inmates 20 had the correct amount of linens and mattresses 21 and things? 22 : Everybody. 23 : Everybody? 24 : Everybody. 25 : Okay. What - can you EFTA00060557 186 1 just explain - we're going to move to the next 2 one. What - did you want to follow up on 3 anything with that? 4 : No, no. 5 : Can you explain cell 6 rotations in the SHU for me? 7 : Cell rotations have to be 8 conducted every 21 days. 9 : Every 21 days? 10 : Yes. 11 : And is that like every 21 12 days from the time that the inmate arrives at 13 the SHU or is it like on a set schedule, this 14 is the day, this is the 21st day? 15 : From the inmate arrives to 16 the cell. 17 : Okay. So every inmate is 18 different. 19 : So if an inmate comes in 20 and he's assigned to cell 101 today, within 21 21 days or at 21 days, he needs to move to another 22 cell that is not cell 101. 23 : Okay. And who is 24 responsible for kind of making sure that that 25 happens? EFTA00060558 187 1 : The Lieutenant should 2 oversee but usually we all go and assist them 3 and we have a print out of the 21 - "Oh, this 4 guy is on 18 days, it's time for him to move." 5 "Oh, this guy is on 21 days, let's move him." 6 : So is it has to be done 7 by 21 days, it can be done prior to 21? Is 8 that what you're saying? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. So it's not like 11 the OIC's responsibility, it's everybody's 12 joint responsibility? 13 : Yes. As long as you're not 14 in the same cell for more than 21 days, you can 15 move every 15 and you can move every 10 as long 16 as it doesn't go over 21. 17 : So, who is like checking 18 to make sure that that's done or is it some 19 kind of an alert that is provided? 20 : Excuse me. Usually the OIC 21 and the Lieutenant. 22 : Are the ones saying, "Let 23 these go." Yeah. 24 : "Hey, we got to move these 25 guys." The Lieutenant goes like, "Hey, OIC, EFTA00060559 188 1 you got to get these guys moved." 2 : All right. And then 3 after they're moved, who is responsible for 4 keying the movement? 5 : Well, the OIC could do it 6 - 7 : Okay. 8 : -- but usually we'll call 9 Control. 10 : So Control or the OIC? 11 : Yes. 12 : All right. As the OIC 13 though, is that kind of like your job every 21 14 days to make sure and then you can either call 15 Control or is it -. 16 : Well, I used to do it on my 17 own because I can -. 18 : Right, right. 19 : Instead of calling Control, 20 waiting five minutes for them to pick up, I 21 just do it on my own. 22 : Now are you aware that 23 Epstein was in the wrong cell on August 9th and 24 10th of 2019? 25 : No. EFTA00060560 189 1 : And so he was in cell 220 2 as we just discussed and in the system he's 3 logged in at 206L. Do you know anything about 4 that? 5 : I actually found that out 6 the week after. 7 : (Indiscernible *02:20:49) 8 so, if you found out, do you know why that is, 9 like what happened? Because obviously the 10 conspiracy theorists are going to be all over 11 that if that gets out, that he was in the wrong 12 cell. So, do you know if it would have been 13 one of those things that - was he ever moved or 14 was he just moved in the system or vice versa? 15 Do you know how that 16 : I think -. 17 : -- discrepancy happened? 18 : I think what happened was 19 when he was moved up from suicide watch, he was 20 placed in, let's say, 206. And then, after he 21 went to attorney conference, when they got him 22 with his bunkie - I mean, once, let's say, he 23 went - he did go to attorney conference, "Okay, 24 he's coming back, we're going to put him with 25 this bunkie," we're just going to move him and EFTA00060561 190 1 somebody forgot to key him in to the right 2 cell. 3 : So do you know if Epstein 4 was ever in a different cell other than 220? 5 : No. He was actually with 6 Tartaglione. 7 : So that was - so when he 8 was with Tartaglione prior to July 23rd, he was 9 actually in a different cell? 10 : Yes. 11 : Is that listed on that? 12 Does it show? 13 : Trying to remember what 14 cell is downstairs right from above that one. 15 : Well, I have a list of 16 the SHU map if that helps you out. It's the 17 first and second floor. I can't remember which 18 one is the first page and - I would just assume 19 that whatever L Tier is on, that's the second 20 floor, correct? 21 22 23 24 25 : Yes. Now -. So the letter corresponds -. : The numbers are off -- : Yeah. : -- on that for some EFTA00060562 191 1 reason. 2 : Definitely. 3 : And we all - and we can't 4 explain that, why that SHU map shows the wrong 5 letters or the wrong numbers, I mean. Seems 6 like they say the wrong - they show the wrong 7 or the correct letters although the numbers 8 appear to be wrong. 9 : This is also - I'm not - is 10 this the second floor? 11 : Here, let me see. 12 : I'm not -. 13 : My understanding would be 14 since this says, "L," that this would be the 15 second floor and this would be the first floor. 16 Is H, K, M, are they on the first floor? 17 : Yes. H is on the bottom. 18 : So H is on the - H is not 19 even on the same thing as K and M? Oh yeah 20 21 22 showing -- 23 : They're on : -- because this is : They're on -. 24 : -- stairs, so I guess - 25 so is this like - this is what you're - is EFTA00060563 192 1 there like three levels then? 2 : No, there's only two, but 3 so H is downstairs, GT is right upstairs and 4 then there's J, K, L, M. 5 : So does this not make 6 sense the way that this is 7 : No, not really. 8 : So, okay. So even 9 looking at this, this doesn't even add up 10 : No. 11 : -- the way you're looking 12 at it? 13 : Because this is the 14 officer's station and the office is the second 15 floor G Tier. This is a weird - but he 16 : So this doesn't add up to 17 you? So we're going to have to see about 18 getting a different SHU map. 19 : No. 20 : But, from your 21 understanding, does this kind of look right 22 though? If this is the officer's station over 23 there, is this where 24 : So -. 25 : -- Epstein was housed? EFTA00060564 193 1 Looking at it that way? 2 : No, so this is the office. 3 That probably means the Lieutenant's office 4 which is on the second floor -- 5 : So that's the LT's 6 office? 7 : -- right next to G Tier. 8 Correct. 9 : Okay. So that's where 10 : And then recreation -- 11 12 -- we thought this was -- would be downstairs. 13 : So this office and this 14 are not even on the same floor? 15 : No. This is on the second 16 floor and this is downstairs. 17 : All right. 18 : So these might be the 19 original blue prints where the rooms might have 20 been changed over time. 21 : All right. Yeah, we're 22 probably going to have to just ask the SIA to 23 give us a tour. Where - so if this is - if 24 we're going to assume that this is the second 25 floor -- EFTA00060565 194 1 : That's if -. 2 : -- because it has L. 3 : That's LT and then the 4 officer's station should be right here. 5 : Right here? 6 : Because I could look up to 7 the office. 8 : So I'm going to write 9 this circle where you're pointing and just put 10 OS for Officer's Station. And this would be 11 Epstein? 12 : Yes. 13 : I'll write E there. 14 : And this is the shower -- 15 : Does -. 16 : -- like I was telling 17 earlier. 18 : Oh, so this is the shower 19 here? All right, so the shower is actually 20 outside of the tier. 21 : Yes. 22 : Shower. And then, if 23 this is 220, where would 206 be? 24 : 19, 18 -- 25 : It's all the way down? EFTA00060566 195 1 : -- 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. 2 : Or is there even? I 3 mean, this sheet says 206 -. 4 : How many cells are in there? 5 : There's four on one side 6 and four on the opposite side. 7 : And would you understand 8 it to mean 206L for 206 L Tier? 9 : No, 206 is lower. That's 10 the -. 11 : Oh, so this wouldn't even 12 mean that he was on the L Tier. 206 -. 13 : Lower and then like upper. 14 : Because this is where it 15 says, if I'm reading this correctly, does it 16 say that on 8/10/2019 that's where he should 17 have been assigned -- 18 : Correct. 19 : -- 206 lower? Does that 20 show you at all - it says, "Z range," right? 21 : Yeah. So -. 22 : What does that 23 : So -. 24 • -- show you that where 25 it's saying that is that he was assigned? And EFTA00060567 196 1 it seems like he had a lot of assignments in 2 there. 3 : So H is the suicide watch. 4 : Okay. So where it says, 5 "H," next to -. 6 : So he went from 201, which 7 that's G Tier, to suicide watch on the 8th of 8 August, then he went to SHU. 9 : The 8th of August? 10 : Of July, I'm sorry, of 11 July. D05. 12 : So July 23rd is when he 13 should have been placed in the -. 14 : That's when actually -. 15 : And July 30th he should 16 have returned. 17 : July 23rd he was in suicide 18 watch. 19 : Right. 20 : July 29th, he went to SHU - 21 - 22 : What -. 23 -- and -. 24 : What cell was he placed in? 25 : 206 on July 29th. Then - EFTA00060568 197 1 hmm. He has - so he was never placed in 220. 2 We never keyed him into 220. 3 : Well, does it show that 4 he was in 206 ever since the time he came back? 5 : Yeah. 6 : Could you -. 7 : So it says the 29th he was 8 in H001 then the next day - the next date would 9 be 206. 10 : And by the number 206, 11 does that tell you at all where that is in the 12 SHU? 13 : 206, I have to -. 14 : I mean, do they - is it 15 so each tier doesn't have like their own 16 number? Is it just, you know, 206 could be 17 like G Tier or -. 18 : So I think - little 19 confusing because I think it goes H Tier is 20 one, two, three, four, these are all four, 205, 21 five, six, then this one should be 06, L Tier 22 should be 06. 23 24 25 : L Tier -- : I have to see it. : -- should be 206? EFTA00060569 198 1 : I have to see it, sorry. 2 : Yeah, yeah, and I get it. 3 : See, because it's a little 4 confusing. 5 : Trying to - absolutely. 6 : Because the way they have 7 it is the opposite. Like one is on the bottom, 8 two is on top and then three back to the 9 bottom, four to the top. 10 : Yeah, so we'll definitely 11 have to check on that. But do you know, was he 12 even ever in 206 after he returned from suicide 13 watch? 14 : If -. 15 : So he returned from 16 suicide watch, it sounds like, like you just 17 said, on the 29th of July. I guess I thought 18 it was the 30th based upon that email. So the 19 29th of July through August 9th, 21 days does 20 not even elapse. 21 : He should be on 220. So he 22 should have got keyed into 220 because that's 23 where -- 24 : So someone -- 25 : -- what it says. EFTA00060570 199 1 : -- keyed him in 2 incorrectly is what it sounds like? 3 : Unless they put him there 4 and said, "Oh, shit, he needs a bunkie and then 5 moved him. But once they moved him, he was 6 never keyed into the right cell. 7 : All right. And do you 8 know who would have keyed in the 206? 9 : Maybe Control the day they 10 came upstairs? Maybe whoever was working SHU? 11 : All right, then -. 12 : So probably maybe even me, 13 but I don't think I would put him in the wrong 14 cell. 15 : So from the time - and 16 you're the one that put him in the cell? 17 : Yeah, like, I wouldn't put 18 him - if you came to 205, that's where I would 19 key you into, 205. 20 : So, are you - but are you 21 the one that placed him initially into 220? 22 : No. 23 : Do you know who did? 24 : I don't remember that. 25 : Do you know how it was EFTA00060571 200 1 decided that he went into 220? My 2 understanding is he was placed in that cell 3 because you could see - you could all - you 4 could see his door up front. 5 : They put him there so we 6 can see him, but maybe was in that cell 7 already. 8 : Who made the 9 determination to place him in that cell? 10 : I don't know. Not me. 11 Like I said, maybe because was already in 12 there. 13 : Yeah, yeah. 14 : Could have been in there, 15 so, you know, it's easier to move him in with 16 • 17 : Oh, yeah. So, that's 18 what I was saying before. I thought the 19 determination was made because from the 20 officer's station, like you said 21 : You could -. 22 : -- where I circled 23 : You could see him. 24 : -- you could see the 25 door. EFTA00060572 201 1 : Yes. 2 : So that's why I thought 3 it was decided to put Epstein in that one. 4 : Right. Because it's right 5 off the -. 6 : So what I'm asking is, do 7 you know who made that decision? 8 : Probably between the 9 Captain, AW and the Warden. 10 : So at that point, he's in 11 220. Who is responsible for making sure that 12 he's coded at 220? 13 : Well, when he came - when 14 he comes up from suicide watch, it should have 15 been Control. 16 : So Control apparently put 17 him in, what you're saying, in 206? 18 : Correct. 19 : So after he's now in - 20 he's not in 206, he's in 220, who is 21 responsible for making that change? 22 : Well, whoever notices it or 23 when we conduct the bed book count which most 24 likely we didn't. It regularly should have 25 been me to key him, "Oh, okay, he's there," but EFTA00060573 202 1 I never saw that he was in the wrong cell. 2 : So that's what I guess, 3 so how would that - so I guess the question is, 4 how would it be noticed that he was in the 5 wrong cell? Is that something that's supposed 6 to be like reviewed or you're supposed to be 7 checking? How does that -- 8 : When you conduct a bed -. 9 : -- and I don't know, so 10 again 11 : Well, no, when you conduct 12 a bed book count, which now, it happens every 13 week, before, maybe once a month, or the next 14 time you notice would be, "Oh, 21 days to move 15 him," you would have came out that cell and he 16 was never in that cell. But you still see him, 17 you see who is there. 18 : Yeah, yeah. 19 : But you just don't verify 20 with the bed book count. 21 : Now, are you confident 22 that he was always in 220 though from the time 23 he returned from suicide watch? 24 : That I remember? Yes. 25 : All right. EFTA00060574 203 1 : The only time I remember he 2 was in another cell, was when he was in 3 cell, which that was right before 4 he went to suicide watch. 5 : Okay. From the time he 6 came back from suicide watch, he was always in 7 220. 8 : Yes. 9 : And this, 206, was that 10 just an administrative error? 11 : That most likely was. 12 : Okay. 13 : Because I know he was up 14 there. 15 : All right. 16 : So after , which 17 I wasn't even here when that happened, after he 18 was his bunkie, he was placed on suicide watch 19 and I think I came back and he was already up 20 there in the cell. 21 : All right. So the only 22 two cells that you know of is when he was with 23 and then when he returned from -. 24 : Yes. 25 : So from basically July, EFTA00060575 204 1 at least 30th, the 29th, to August 10th, 220 is 2 the cell he was always in? 3 : Yes. 4 : This 206 thing was an 5 administrative error. 6 : Correct. 7 : And it would have been 8 caught if there were weekly bed book counts 9 done. 10 : Yes. 11 : All right, and that's - 12 other than that bed book count, is there 13 another time that that would have been that 14 that could have been or should have been 15 caught? 16 : Maybe when, if you were 17 moving him, if you were moving his bunkie, but 18 there's no -. 19 : Okay, get a note to make 20 sure we ask for Reyes's cell assignment. And 21 he was always from 220 - I mean, from 7/29 to 22 8/10 - July 29th to August 10th, he was always 23 with Reyes? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. All right. Now EFTA00060576 205 1 we're going to talk about - do you mind just 2 initialing. Now would the Lieutenant have any 3 oversight over this as well? 4 : If he was there, yes. 5 : Is that something he 6 suppo- he's, you know, I think it was, we were 7 told that the Lieutenant comes in and audits 8 the books and things like that. Is this 9 something that he would have been auditing? 10 : I'm not sure if that's - 11 because I haven't worked like as a SHU 12 Lieutenant, but he does have to confirm the 13 rounds. Only way he would order that is 14 probably before the SHU meeting, which the SHU 15 meetings we usually had on Thursdays. 16 : Okay. Anything more you 17 want to ask on that? 18 : I don't know if you want him 19 to sign the SHU. 20 : We're still going to look 21 at that. So, this has been a great confusion 22 too that we're hoping you can help us. What 23 cameras are actually located in the SHU outside 24 of 10 South and G Tier? 25 : At this point in time. EFTA00060577 206 1 : So, not at this point in 2 time, in August of 2019. 3 : So in August we only had 4 : I'm sorry, man. Sorry. 5 : -- one camera at the end of 6 the range. So you walk in through the rear 7 door. 8 : Can you - again, I guess 9 this is too confusing. 10 : So -. 11 : Are you able to determine 12 - if we're saying that this is the second 13 floor, here is L Tier. There is Epstein's cell 14 -- 15 : So there was always -- 16 : -- officer's station. 17 : -- a camera right here. 18 : That points down this 19 range? 20 : Yeah. 21 : All right. So that 22 should have been at least where Epstein's cell 23 was located. 24 : Well, it wouldn't - it 25 would see both. EFTA00060578 207 1 : We have this camera 2 angle. Where is this camera? This is the 3 officer's station. 4 : That - this is outside of 5 10 South, which is the second floor and this is 6 the other office that I was in, the 7 Lieutenant's office on top. 8 : Okay. So the 9 Lieutenant's office is here. 10 : Yes. 11 : So, LT right there. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : And then this floor 14 though is 10 South? 15 16 to 10 South. 17 : Yes. This is the entrance : 10 - I'm putting 10 South 18 on the door and pointing to the LT's door. Is 19 this the officer's station? 20 : Yes. 21 : I'm circling the 22 officer's station. Where would Epstein have 23 been located? 24 : It's up - you can't see it 25 through there. EFTA00060579 208 1 : This over here? 2 : Yeah. 3 : So I'm going to put E and 4 pointing to it. So that's where Epstein's cell 5 would have been. What is this over here? 6 : That's on J Tier. 7 : That would have been G 8 Tier? All right, so I'm going to put G 9 10 11 J, J. : J? Oh. : Yeah, J as in Jack. 12 : J up that way. All 13 right. So that's our point of reference. What 14 other cameras other than this should have there 15 been in the SHU? 16 : Well, there's another one 17 out here that focused on the whole MPA, which 18 the MPA is this general right here area. 19 : Okay. 20 : And then every range, when 21 you walk in, has a camera towards the end. 22 This is -- 23 24 25 : So every range -- : -- in August. : -- is supposed to have a EFTA00060580 209 1 2 3 4 camera? : have them there. Yes. They did. They still : So when you call it a 5 range, you're talking about -- 6 : All right, so 7 : -- each tier? 8 : Yes, each tier. So, I walk 9 into the tier, there's a camera at the end of 10 all of them. Now -. 11 : So, every one of them 12 should have had a camera. 13 : Yes. They did have 14 cameras, they are still there. 15 : That should have been 16 working. 17 : Correct. 18 : Ok so. 19 : They're still there, the 20 cameras. 21 : Are you able to tell, 22 what is this a picture of? 23 : That's the Sally port, the 24 visiting elevator. 25 : On the 9th floor? EFTA00060581 210 1 2 3 4 : Yep. : So when you say, "Visiting elevator," what does that mean? : So you walk in through the 5 first floor and only - if there's visitors, you 6 can come out through there. So -. 7 : You can visit the SHU? 8 : Yes. 9 : Like outsiders? 10 : Yes. Visit the SHU 11 inmates. 12 : I didn't know that. So 13 instead of bringing the SHU, the inmates 14 downstairs, the visitors actually -- 15 : Yep. 16 : -- come into the SHU? 17 : And they walk into the room 18 in here, they sit down with their visitors. 19 : So this is called the -. 20 : 9 Sally - 9 visiting Sally. 21 : 9 -- 22 : Visiting Sally. 23 : -- visiting - is Sally, 24 S-A-L-L-Y? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060582 211 1 : All right, the second one 2 we just went over. That's from 10 South 3 outside of. What is this? 4 : That's 10 South. 5 : This is 10 South? And 6 this again is 10 South? 7 : Yes. 8 : And again, 10 South. Is 9 there a reason why - did you want to identify - 10 11 : No, no, it's okay. 12 : I'm going to actually 13 take those -- 14 : Yeah. 15 : -- pictures out of this 16 and just look at those three. All right. So 17 the fact that we only have these three camera 18 angles and saying that these are the three that 19 are only working, do you know anything about 20 that? Do you know if all those other cameras 21 should have been working on each of the ranges? 22 : Well, they should have. 23 : All right. So, each 24 tier, to your knowledge on every single one, 25 including on L Tier where Epstein was located, EFTA00060583 212 1 should have had a camera that pointed down. 2 : They should have a working 3 camera. They still have the camera. It works. 4 At that time, I don't know if it did or didn't, 5 but the camera was on the wall. It's there on 6 the wall. 7 : On the wall of every 8 tier. 9 : Correct. 10 : Including Epstein's tier. 11 : Yes. 12 : Do you know anything 13 about those cameras not working on August 9th 14 or August 10th? 15 : No. 16 : Do you know anything 17 about Epstein's tier, that camera not working 18 on -. 19 : No. 20 : Who is responsible for 21 making sure that the cameras were working? 22 : I think the Com Department. 23 Com Tech. 24 : And do you remember in 25 August 2019 who was working in the Com EFTA00060584 213 1 Department? Anybody? Is there a Mr. 2 : I think , that's the 3 only one. The only Com Tech that we've had and 4 that we still have. 5 : And he's still here? 6 : Yes. 7 ? All right, so 8 would be the person to talk to about 9 this? 10 : Maybe tell you more or less 11 if what cameras worked or didn't work at that 12 time. 13 : Okay. But no one ever 14 talked to you? Is there any way that as the 15 OIC or anybody that worked in the SHU that you 16 would have known that the cameras were or were 17 not working? 18 : No. 19 : So who - is there anybody 20 that live monitors any of those cameras? 21 : That I know of? No. 22 : All right. So you don't 23 know anything else about the cameras? Is this 24 the first you're hearing that these cameras 25 were down? EFTA00060585 214 1 : I mean, I've heard it in 2 the news, but not from the building. 3 : Is that - does that raise 4 any suspicion for you the fact that these 5 cameras aren't - they don't have video of these 6 cameras? 7 : Not really. This building, 8 there's always something going wrong in the 9 building. So, it wouldn't surprise me or 10 didn't surprise me when they said the cameras 11 weren't working. 12 : All right. But, I mean, 13 that many? If we have how many tiers are in 14 you just do this top page. That many 15 : In six tiers. 16 : Six tiers and we don't 17 have any cameras for any of the six tiers then. 18 Is that to you like, "Wait, what?" Does -. 19 : Not really. 20 : No? 21 : No, not really. Like I 22 said, sometimes the lights go off in the tier 23 and we got to reset the breaker, so ever since 24 I started, there's always been a problem with 25 something not working in this building. So the EFTA00060586 215 1 camera doesn't surprise me, it's just another 2 thing that didn't work for the moment. 3 : So this is where like, 4 it's just like, what are your - what is your 5 opinion on the fact that we got no cameras 6 working on at least, you know, definitely on 7 Epstein's tier, he's in the wrong cell, you 8 know, we could always - you know, the counts 9 are basically, you know, potentially falsified, 10 the counts weren't done. Is there anything 11 that you're seeing here that you're like, 12 "Somebody is covering up for somebody," or, 13 "Somebody is like manipulating things or 14 deleting cameras or taking anything down?" Is 15 there a reason for you to believe any of that? 16 : Mm, not really. I said, 17 going on seven years now, a lot of stuff has 18 gone wrong in this building and I highly doubt 19 that stuff was on purpose. My -. 20 : What about even to just 21 cover up -- 22 : My belief -. 23 : -- from what they were 24 doing administratively? Is there anybody that 25 would have been able to, like, knock cameras EFTA00060587 216 1 out or knock them down or manipulate them? 2 : No, because -. 3 : Do Lieutenants have the 4 ability to do that? 5 : No, the Lieutenants don't 6 and leaves at like, I think, at 2:00 in 7 the afternoon. 8 : So like, for instance, if 9 an Ops Lieutenant, would that - would an Ops 10 Lieutenant be able to -- 11 : Go somewhere 12 : -- manipulate the 13 cameras -- 14 : -- and turn the syst-. 15 : -- or anything? 16 : No. 17 : No? 18 : No. 19 : Even from like the camera 20 room or anything like that? 21 : No, we don't have access to 22 the camera room. 23 : Okay. 24 : We could log in to the 25 camera system, but we can't turn on or turn off EFTA00060588 217 1 any camera. 2 : So who has the ability to 3 turn on and turn off cameras? 4 : That should be the Com 5 shop. 6 : All right, so just 7 8 : Yes. 9 : -- is the only person 10 that can do it? Okay. Do you know who BOP 11 employee is? 12 : He's a case manager here. 13 : Okay. Still here? 14 : Yes. 15 : All right. Are you aware 16 on August 9, 2019, when worked and what 17 his responsibilities were, like in - I don't 18 even know if he's on here, let me see. 19 : I didn't even think he was 20 here that day. 21 : He was. Yeah, okay. So, 22 if you can find him on there and tell me if you 23 can figure out what his role and 24 responsibilities were, looking at the daily 25 assignment roster. EFTA00060589 218 1 2 : Yes. 3 : He's Unit Team, he wouldn't 4 be on this roster. 5 : Well, if you look at the 6 bottom, you'll find his name at least. 7 : That's 8 : That's a different one? 9 : Correct. 10 : All right. So Unit Team, 11 does that mean he's non-custody? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. And what were his 14 roles and responsibilities, do you know? 15 : He's a Case Manager, pretty 16 much serving incident reports, referring them 17 to DHO, give out legal phone calls. 18 : Okay. 19 : Deal with some 20 : Legal phone calls 21 : -- kind of legal -- 22 : -- is one of things that 23 -. 24 : -- legal paperwork. 25 : Okay. So -- EFTA00060590 219 1 : Make copies. 2 did you have any 3 conversations with on August 9, 2019 4 regarding Epstein? 5 : No. 6 : Did you ever - did you 7 remember ever talking with about 8 Epstein? 9 : Huh-uh. 10 : Do you know anything 11 about allowing Epstein to make a 12 telephone call on the evening of August 9, 13 2019? 14 : No. 15 : Did you hear anything 16 about that after the fact? 17 : No, and that's new. 18 : So do you know anything 19 about Epstein being authorized a telephone call 20 from the SHU? 21 : No. 22 : You ever hear anything 23 about Epstein making a telephone call from 24 inside the shower area? 25 : No. EFTA00060591 220 1 : Do you know about inmates 2 in general ever making telephone calls from 3 that shower? 4 : They're not supposed to. 5 : They're not supposed to? 6 : No. 7 : Is there a jack there 8 though? 9 : There's no jack close to 10 the shower. Usually for a phone call, we plug 11 in the phone to the jack and give them the 12 phone through the slot. They make their phone 13 call, 15 minutes are up, you take the phone 14 back. 15 : So Epstein placed a 16 telephone call from the shower, they plugged in 17 the thing, gave Epstein the telephone and then 18 closed the shower doors I guess and allowed him 19 to speak in there. Has that ever happened 20 before? 21 : The only place that I think 22 that would reach would be G Tier. Because 23 they're inside the tiers, the jacks weren't 24 working. 25 : And am I saying that EFTA00060592 221 1 correctly? 2 : Yeah, I think the shower was 3 in the G Tier. I think one 4 : It was a shower in the G 5 Tier 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- not in the L Tier, so 8 he placed a telephone call from a shower, not 9 necessarily the L Tier shower. So he placed a 10 telephone call from the shower, a shower and it 11 was plugged into a non-recorded line. 12 : Well, those are the legal 13 phone calls because we can't listen to the - or 14 the attorney phone calls aren't supposed to be 15 on a recorded line, from my understanding. 16 : All right. So is that 17 something that you would allow inmates to do? 18 : Personally, I put them 19 downstairs. 20 : When you say, 21 "Downstairs," where is that? 22 : In the recreation area, the 23 law library. 24 : So outside of the SHU? 25 : Correct. No, it's actually EFTA00060593 222 1 inside the SHU -- 2 3 : Okay. : -- but it's like a cage 4 that where the computers were and plug in the 5 phone in the tier and make it reach all the way 6 downstairs. 7 : Is it abnormal -- 8 : Not the shower. 9 : -- that they allowed 10 Epstein to place a call from the shower, 11 whichever shower it was, it sounds like G Tier 12 and use a legal line? 13 : Not really, unless there's 14 no - couldn't put him on the library or you 15 couldn't put him in the rec cage then. 16 : What if you told the officer 17 that he wanted to call his mother? 18 : You got social calls for 19 that and those calls, they would be recorded. 20 : And what would be a 21 reason why that it would be on a legal line to 22 call his, quote, unquote, mother? 23 24 25 : There shouldn't be. : There shouldn't be? : There shouldn't be. Use EFTA00060594 223 1 your minutes. 2 : So you hadn't heard 3 anything about this? 4 : No. 5 : This is the first you're 6 hearing of it? 7 8 9 abnormal that : Yes. : Okay. Would it be would have set this up 10 for him to be able to call his mother from the 11 shower then and plug it in the legal line? 12 : Unless he told him he was 13 calling his attorney, but even with that, 14 you've got to verify the attorney, "This is - 15 is this attorney such and such?" "Yes, okay, 16 I'm going to put your client on the phone." 17 That's how it should have been. 18 : And even at that, is 19 someone supposed to monitor that telephone 20 call? 21 : Well, he can't sit there 22 and listen to it, but once your time is up 23 then, "All right, give me the phone back." 24 : Okay. So no one is 25 actually supposed to sit there and actually EFTA00060595 224 1 monitor the call even though it's not recorded? 2 : Correct. 3 : They are not? 4 : They are not because of, 5 it's a legal call. 6 : Okay. And it's only a 7 legal call that's not supposed to be monitored? 8 : Correct. 9 : As far as a call to his 10 mother or anybody other than a legal call, it 11 should have been recorded? 12 : Yes. On a recorded line, 13 yes. 14 : And does everybody in the 15 SHU know that? 16 : Yes. 17 : Should known 18 that? 19 : Definitely. 20 : Okay. And when inmates 21 place calls from the SHU, how is that - how do 22 you keep track of that, if at all? 23 : Well, we have - on SENTRY, 24 we have the TRUFONE, so we just print that or 25 in SHU we should - 1 don't know if they're EFTA00060596 225 1 still doing it, they had a log book so you 2 request for the phone, I give it to you, I fill 3 it - I put your name down that you had a phone 4 call. 5 : So I guess that's what - 6 is it tr- Epstein didn't actually have one of 7 those like keypad things. 8 : PAC and PIN. 9 : Oh, he didn't have one? 10 : So if he didn't have one, 11 how would he place a call? 12 : He can't. 13 : So the only way he could 14 place a call is from an actual 15 : Unit Team, yes. 16 : So if the - if, in those 17 cases, are the calls supposed to be monitored? 18 : Yes. 19 : So in this case, if 20 Epstein placed a call and was told, like - my 21 understanding is got the approval to 22 allow him to place a call but left him in the 23 shower area, left the unit, and no one 24 monitored the call. Is that a problem? 25 : Yes. So -- EFTA00060597 226 1 : Who -. 2 : -- if it's -. 3 : Who should have been 4 responsible for monitoring that call? 5 : He should have. 6 • • 7 : Yes. He should just not 8 stand there and listen to his conversation, but 9 he should have verified -- 10 : Even if it's not a legal 11 call. 12 : Well, if he said -. 13 : So he doesn't have one of 14 these PAC and PINs, or whatever it's called and 15 they said he -. 16 : Then it's not going to be a 17 social call, then it's going to be a legal 18 call. 19 : No, no, no. What I'm 20 saying is, he doesn't have the ability to make 21 a social call, but he's provided the approval, 22 "Yes, allow him to make this call, but monitor 23 it," stood there? 24 : He should have stood by 25 there. EFTA00060598 227 1 : And is the one 2 who should have done that? 3 : Yes. Because he's the one 4 who put him on the phone. 5 : All right. And he 6 shouldn't have passed that responsibility off 7 to someone in the SHU? 8 : Correct. 9 : Okay. 10 : So if, for instance, the 11 Warden says, "Give Mr. Smith a phone call, a 12 five minute phone call but make sure you stand 13 there and monitor it," then, "Here's the phone, 14 it's going to be on a non-recorded line," but I 15 am going to stand there and listen to your 16 conversation because it's not a legal phone 17 call -- 18 : Right. 19 : -- it's just kind of like a 20 courtesy phone call, you're given the 21 opportunity to call your family. "Okay, you're 22 phone call is done? Thank you." Hang up the 23 phone and walk away. 24 : And how are those calls 25 allowed, did you say? EFTA00060599 228 1 : Should be a book. 2 : In a written book? 3 : A log book. Yes. 4 : Okay. Not in anything in 5 like a TRUSCOPE or anything 6 : No. 7 : -- like that? SENTRY? 8 : You could put it on 9 TRUSCOPE, just to kind of - in case something 10 like this happens, cover yourself. 11 : Okay. 12 : Let's say an order like that 13 did come down. Are they allowed to call any 14 person they wanted or does it have to be a 15 specific number off a list? 16 : It has to be a legal phone 17 call only. 18 : No, no, no. If -. 19 : Only to your attorneys. 20 : If he doesn't have the 21 ability to make a social call and they say 22 that, "Yes, allow him to have this social 23 call," would he even have a list if he never 24 : No. No, he could just call 25 whoever he wants to on the phone. EFTA00060600 229 1 : Okay. 2 : But I guess though, I 3 want to make sure you're understanding that 4 question. When you're given the ability to 5 make phone calls, they vet people and you have 6 a list of people that you're allowed to call, 7 correct? 8 : Right. 9 : Like the monitored calls. 10 If you're never given that - what's it called? 11 PAC and -. 12 : PIN and PAC. 13 : PIN and PAC, if you're 14 never given a PIN and PAC, do we even have a 15 list of people that you -. 16 : No. 17 : So he wouldn't actually 18 have a list. 19 : Correct. 20 : If you want to follow up 21 on that -- 22 : No, no, no. 23 : -- that's fine. But do 24 you know if he had a list or not? 25 : There was a - I think that EFTA00060601 230 1 someone has mentioned that there was a list, 2 but I'm not aware, I haven't seen a list, so I 3 just wondered if he would know. 4 : But if he doesn't have 5 the PIN and PAC, no list would have ever 6 : Just nothing would -- 7 : -- been generated, right? 8 : -- exist. 9 : Right. 10 : Unless his list of 11 attorneys, that would be the only list he 12 should have. 13 : Okay. 14 : When inmates are brought into 15 the MCC, are they asked for a list of people 16 that they would like to call or keep as a 17 contact, anything like that? 18 : So you're asked for an 19 emergency contact, and that's it. When you see 20 Unit Team, you give Unit Team a list of family 21 members or whoever you want to call, they put 22 it into the system. 23 : Okay. 24 : If it's attorneys, they 25 also have a list of attorneys that you can call EFTA00060602 231 1 and you only make that phone call with Unit 2 Team there present. 3 : If he did give that name to 4 the Unit Team, where would they put it? 5 : That would be Unit Team. I 6 don't know where they have 7 : Or it's not like in -. 8 : No, it's not in SENTRY 9 : Okay. 10 : -- like that. 11 : And to you, though, is 12 that extremely abnormal? Have you ever heard 13 of something like that before? Somebody being 14 provided a phone call? 15 : It's happened before. 16 : Not having one of these 17 PAC and PINs and then walking away and letting 18 them just speak? 19 : Well, it's happened where 20 they've given inmates a phone call or transfer 21 a phone call when they don't have a PIN and 22 PAC, but most of the time it's a five minutes 23 call whoever you're going to call, just like if 24 the Chaplain receives a death notification in 25 the family, he brings you up, he gives you that EFTA00060603 232 1 five minute phone call, but he's sitting there 2 next to you listening to your phone call. Once 3 your phone call is done, "Okay, go back to your 4 cell." 5 : But as far as, if this in 6 fact happened where gave him a call, 7 leaves the tier, after 15 minutes calls 8 somebody in the SHU and says, "Hey, let Epstein 9 know his telephone call is done and get the 10 phone back." Is that -- 11 : It's -. 12 : -- pretty problematic or 13 is it just -. 14 : It shouldn't happen, but 15 it's happened. 16 : Okay. 17 : It's happened. 18 : Do you think it's because 19 it was Epstein, he was a guy - "I want to give 20 him his privacy because he's got this --" you 21 know, "--he's -- 22 : Mm. 23 : -- he's got this air 24 around him, he's a big deal," or why do you 25 think would have done that? EFTA00060604 233 1 : Probably a million things 2 on his head to do. 3 : Okay. How severe do you 4 believe that that would be though or if at all? 5 : Should not have did that 6 because of what happened. 7 : Right. 8 : But if it didn't happen, 9 then it would be another regular inmate. 10 : Okay. Anything more on 11 that? How - we're getting - we're almost 12 there, I promise. How was Epstein's 13 interactions with other inmates? 14 : Well, he only spoke to two, 15 which was and 16 : Never really any other 17 dealings? 18 : Everybody was always trying 19 to talk to him. 20 : But he wouldn't talk 21 back? 22 : Just regular conversation, 23 nothing crazy. 24 : Well, how, I guess, how 25 were his interactions, I guess, with his cell EFTA00060605 234 1 2 3 4 mates then, with : and Well, he always got along : He did? 5 : -- that I understood. They 6 were both always talking. They never had issue 7 with each other. 8 : What about with 9 : None either. 10 : Okay. So both seemed to 11 get along fine? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. When was the last 14 time you interacted with or saw Epstein? 15 : That should have been, 16 what, August 9th. 17 : So August 9th, the day 18 you left work - last - what was his state of 19 mind at that time? 20 : He seemed calm. 21 : Yeah? Anything -- 22 : He actually -- 23 : -- any -. 24 : -- joked around because he 25 asked for a new jumper and I told him, "No." EFTA00060606 235 1 And he said, "Why not?" I was like, "It's a 2 jail, this is what you got to do. Nobody else 3 gets a jumper, it's not Versace," you know. 4 He's, "Ha, ha, ha, ha," he laughed and that's 5 it. I brought him downstairs to attorney 6 visit. 7 : Okay. Nothing abnormal 8 though or out of the ordinary? 9 : No. 10 : Okay. 11 : He was very polite. 12 : Was he complaining about 13 anything? 14 : No. 15 : Aside from the jumper? 16 : Not really. 17 : Did he talk about any 18 other inmates or anything? 19 : No, he just, like normal. 20 : Express that he was in 21 fear or anything like that? 22 : No. He was just, you know, 23 always worried about his attorney visit. 24 : Were any threats made to 25 Epstein that you're aware of? EFTA00060607 236 1 2 3 was in prison? 4 : No. : Do you know why Epstein : Because of - what is it, 5 the child molestation and a bunch of other 6 stuff according to the news. 7 : And did you have any 8 specific feelings with regard to why he was in 9 prison? 10 : Not really, to me, just an 11 inmate. 12 : And would you have pretty 13 frequent conversations with Epstein? 14 : Mornings, I mean, "What's 15 up? You all right?" "Yeah, I'm good." 16 "Okay." 17 : Anything of substance 18 other than just, "Hello?" 19 : No. 20 : No? And you said you 21 didn't work on August 10th, correct? 22 23 24 25 Monday was. : Correct. : When was your next shift? : Monday, whatever date the EFTA00060608 237 1 : And did you speak with 2 BOP employees at that time about Epstein's 3 death? 4 : Everybody was talking a 5 lot, like, "Oh, shit, you hear what happened?" 6 "Yeah." That's like regular - nothing into 7 details. 8 : What was your 9 understanding of how he died? 10 : According to what I heard 11 and they said it was a suicide. 12 : Suicide? And do you know 13 anything about anyone else taking Epstein's 14 life? 15 : No. 16 : Do you know anything 17 about others assisting with taking Epstein's 18 life? 19 : Definitely, no. 20 : Do you believe that 21 Epstein took his own life? 22 : Yes. 23 : Did Epstein act alone in 24 taking his own life? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060609 238 1 : What would have prevented 2 Epstein's death? 3 : If he was still on suicide 4 watch. 5 : So you believe he should 6 have still been on suicide watch? 7 : If he was still on suicide 8 watch, he would have had 24/7 supervision. 9 : On that note, do you 10 think he was appropriately placed in SHU or 11 should have he been on like 10 South or G Tier? 12 : Well, if he was on 10 13 South, he would have been alone. If he was on 14 G Tier, he still would have been alone. 15 : And you think it was very 16 important because of Psychology that he was 17 with someone else? 18 : Correct. 19 : Okay. 20 : I feel, if he already tried 21 once, what's the chances he's going to not try 22 again. 23 : And do you believe he 24 should have still been on suicide watch? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060610 239 1 : You do? 2 : I think it was, what, two 3 weeks maybe or one week and then he came into 4 population -- 5 : Well, how -. 6 : -- or he came to Special 7 Housing. 8 : How often are inmates 9 typically on suicide watch or psych 10 observation? 11 : Well, if you actually 12 committed or did the noose and all that stuff, 13 then at least two weeks. 14 : So at least two weeks -- 15 : At least two weeks. 16 17 18 : -- he should have been? : Yes. : And what is your belief, 19 why did they release him early from suicide 20 watch or psychological -? 21 : Because he was Epstein. 22 : So you think it was 23 because he requested it? 24 : Yes. Well, this is my - 25 he's, according to everybody, very important, EFTA00060611 240 1 so. 2 : Right. And with all that 3 we talked about and like, you know, again, 4 speaking about the cameras, the, you know, 5 logs, the count, shifts, you know, all this 6 kind of stuff, do you believe there's any 7 suspicious activity at play with regards to 8 Epstein's death? 9 : I think, maybe when he came 10 to maybe a round or a count sheet, yes, could 11 have been stuff messed up, but any foul play 12 with staff, I don't think so. 13 : What about even with like 14 Psychology placing him into the SHU a little 15 early? I know you said it's because he was 16 Epstein, but do you think that it had anything 17 to do with people hoping he killed himself? 18 : I don't think so. 19 : No? 20 : I don't think so. I think 21 this building is always under the radar with 22 everything so instead of attracting attention, 23 "Let's get him out of -" - because if not, his 24 lawyer is going to eat MCC alive, that's what a 25 lot of, I feel. This building is worried about EFTA00060612 241 1 being on the paper. 2 : Okay. 3 : And what happens? They 4 were on the paper. 5 : Right. Now -. 6 : If I'm not mistaken, 7 another institution the same day, two inmates 8 also committed suicide. 9 : Oh wow, right.. Now what 10 about, did anyone ever approach you, either 11 inside or outside the institution about Epstein 12 while he was here? 13 : No. 14 : With regard to harming 15 him or assisting him? 16 : No. 17 : No? Okay. What are some 18 of the systematic problems inside the MCC and 19 specifically the SHU that allowed for Epstein 20 to die? 21 : The shortage of staff. 22 Staff constantly working doubles with little 23 sleep in between. I think that's - we don't 24 have enough equipment, like, you know, we don't 25 have enough tools to make this SHU specifically EFTA00060613 242 1 succeed. 2 : What about if you're told 3 that people weren't doing counts and rounds, do 4 you think that played into it as well? 5 : Yes. 6 : Do you think if rounds 7 were actually conducted, he would at least be 8 alive on August 10th? 9 : It takes three minutes for 10 a person to - when that's something look the 11 line. If he wanted to commit suicide, he would 12 have whether the staff would conduct the rounds 13 or not. 14 15 cellmate with him? 16 : Depending who the cell mate 17 is and how the cell mate sleeps, because 18 also had medical problems. I think it would 19 have been more of a chance for him to be alive 20 if he had a cellmate. Not that -- 21 22 23 have tried. 24 : What about if he had a : So on that note -. : -- he definitely would not : Right. So on that note, 25 who out of all the people here, who do you EFTA00060614 243 1 believe holds the most responsibility for 2 reassigning Epstein with a cellmate? 3 : I think everybody played a 4 little bit of part. 5 : And can - and this will 6 be the last question, tell me what people 7 what part people played in like how that could 8 have been rectified as far as getting him a new 9 cellmate? 10 : Um -. 11 : Where it should have 12 begun, where should it have ended? 13 : So it started with his 14 bunkie leaving. So, yes, I told my relief he 15 needs a bunkie. Maybe R&D should have called, 16 say, "Hey, this is Epstein's -" - the whole 17 building knew who Epstein's bunkie was. R&D 18 should -. 19 : So is it acceptable for 20 anybody to say, "I had no idea who Reyes was 21 and I didn't know that Reyes was Epstein's 22 bunkie?" 23 : No. 24 : Did everybody in the 25 building at the time know? EFTA00060615 244 1 : Everybody in the building. 2 : And how did they know 3 that? 4 : Just word. 5 : Word of mouth? 6 : Everybody talks and it's 7 not that many of us in this building, so. 8 : Okay. And I apologize 9 for interrupting, I just wanted to ask this. 10 11 12 : That's known. : Sorry. : So, R&D, "Hey, we're losing 13 this guy, Reyes is leaving." The Lieutenant, 14 "Hey, Psychology, Reyes is leaving." 15 Everybody, and since it was a Friday -. 16 : So who should have 17 notified the Lieutenants? 18 : I think maybe I should have 19 said, "Hey, sir, Reyes is leaving." 20 : And do you - 21 "We got to get him a 22 bunkie." Instead of, "Hey, sir, you know, 23 Reyes is leaving today, Epstein needs a 24 bunkie," and just me leaving. 25 : And do you believe that EFTA00060616 245 1 you did tell a Lieutenant? 2 : Oh, I definitely, without a 3 doubt, strongly believe I told more than one 4 person that Reyes was leaving. 5 : I know you have the memo 6 saying that you specifically told as well 7 as and were present, but as far 8 as Lieutenants, do you have that belief that 9 you, without saying I can actually put myself 10 there, do you believe that you told a 11 Lieutenant? 12 : Yes. I think I spoke to 13 and 14 : And what do you believe 15 you told them? 16 is leaving, Epstein 17 is going to need a bunkie." 18 : All right. So if they 19 say, "We knew Reyes left, but we didn't know 20 that he wasn't coming back," do you that that's 21 true? 22 : Yes. Because, like I 23 explained before, there's a lot of WABs that go 24 downstairs and within one hour, two hours, 25 sometimes right before the 10 o'clock count, EFTA00060617 246 1 they end up coming back. Or they say they're 2 going to court, they'll spend two, three hours 3 in R&D and come back. So it's not always 4 because it says WAB on the paper, a hundred 5 percent guarantee that they're not going to 6 come back. Whether they take all their stuff 7 or not. 8 : So you think it's 9 extremely likely you told, not only , but 10 also ? Should they have made the 11 notification to either the Captain or to the 12 relief? 13 : Maybe they did. I'm sure 14 they did because of -- 15 : Well, if I can tell you - 16 - 17 -- who Lieutenant -. 18 -- nobody notified the 19 Captain. Should have they notified the 20 Captain? 21 : Yeah. 22 : If it's claimed that they 23 didn't tell their relief, should have they 24 notified their relief? 25 : Yes. EFTA00060618 247 1 : All right. 2 : So something everybody, 3 especially being Epstein, you pass it down. 4 : Okay. Now let's say this 5 is a unique situation. Let's say , he's 6 working from 6:00 to 2:00. 7 : Correct. He leaves the 8 same time I leave. 9 • his relief, she's 10 on a regular time shift until 4:00 so she can't 11 start the Activities Lieutenant until 4:00. 12 : Correct. 13 : What would happen with 14 those two hours in between? He leaves at 2:00, 15 she starts at 4:00. Was he supposed to stay 16 until 4:00 -- 17 : No. 18 : -- until he's relieved or 19 can he leave at 2:00 and then just the 20 Activities Lieutenant goes unfilled for two 21 hours? 22 : He could leave at 2:00 23 because you have Operations Lieutenant until 4 24 o'clock. 25 : Okay. So because - well, EFTA00060619 248 1 I thought both Activities and - I thought 2 they both stopped at 2:00. 3 : No, one is 6:00 to 2:00, 4 another was 8:00 to 4:00. 5 : Okay. So at that time 6 when someone is doing the - 7 : Somebody has to be in that 8 position until the next Lieutenant comes in and 9 takes over, and -. 10 : But , at that time, 11 they're allowing the Ops Lieutenants to leave 12 two hours earlier than their shift due to 13 traffic. So the Ops Lieutenant actually is 14 leaving at 2:00 as well -- 15 : No. 16 : -- and then he's being 17 replaced by who is, although the 18 assignment says 4:00, he actually comes in at 19 2:00. 20 : So, if -. 21 : Because is there, 22 can and both leave? 23 : Yes, because is 24 still in the building. 25 : Although doesn't EFTA00060620 249 1 take on Activities shift until 4:00? 2 3 yes. 4 : Until 4 o'clock, correct, : So there can be just one 5 Ops Lieutenant from 2:00 to 4:00? 6 7 8 : Yes. : Okay. : Just like now, there's only 9 one Ops Lieutenant from 6:00 to 10:00 -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- by themselves. 12 : So, and , if 13 they both knew, they didn't notify the Captain 14 or their relief, what should have happened 15 next? Should -- 16 : If they did not -. 17 : -- at the 4 o'clock 18 count, is that when - so you're saying you kind 19 of could take a little bit of responsibility 20 but you also believe that you not only notified 21 your relief, but you also passed it up the 22 chain, correct? 23 : Correct. 24 : So now it gets passed up 25 the chain and nothing happens. When should - EFTA00060621 250 1 what should have happened next with regard to 2 the cellmate? When should have the next time 3 this thing have been brought back up? The 4:00 4 5 : Whenever - whoever was - 6 the first person that found out that was 7 not coming back, that person should have passed 8 it down to everybody again. 9 : And that would have been, 10 you believe somebody like or one of 11 those? 12 : It could have been 13 It could have been R&D that the first person 14 pretty much, like, "Oh, you know, Reyes is not 15 coming back." "Okay." Let's say R&D found out 16 first, then they should have called the Captain 17 or even they should have just notified the 18 Lieutenant. If Reyes found out -. 19 : So R&D would actually go 20 straight to the Captain? 21 : Or most likely the 22 Lieutenant first, then, "Okay, I did my part, 23 that's pretty much - I did my part, I told the 24 Lieutenant," that's, the rest is on - it's on 25 them because I did my part in notifying EFTA00060622 251 1 somebody. 2 : Now, if we're told that 3 R&D usually just goes direct to the SHU, does 4 that sound right to you or do they usually go 5 first to like the Ops or Activity and then 6 somebody else 7 : Like inform? 8 : Yeah, so if they know, 9 "Hey, Reyes isn't - we now know he didn't come 10 back, he was released." R&D is the first 11 person to get that word. What is their typical 12 procedure? Do they contact both the SHU and 13 the Lieutenant or do they contact one or the 14 other? 15 : Depending who is working. 16 Sometimes they'll tell both of them, sometimes 17 they'll call SHU, sometimes they'll just call 18 the Lieutenant, the Lieutenant calls SHU and 19 says, "Hey, this guy is not coming back." Or 20 if they call SHU, then SHU would fix it on the 21 computer or SHU would call Control, say, "Can 22 you take off the count?" 23 : And would the person that 24 got contacted in R&D, you said everybody knew, 25 would the person in R&D know that was EFTA00060623 252 1 Epstein's cellmate? 2 : I would assume they did. 3 : And are they on this 4 form? 5 : Are they, no. 6 : How would we find out who 7 was working at approximately 4:00 - what does 8 their shift go from? You said 2:00 to 10:00? 9 : Yes. Think -. 10 : How would we find out 11 : There was one that -. 12 : -- who was - do we know 13 who was working -- 14 15 16 17 18 : It's -. : -- 2:00 to 10:00? : They're 6:00 to 2:00 -- : Not for R&D. : -- 2:00 to 10:00 and 12:00 19 to 8:00, R&D. 6:00 to 2:00, 12:00 to 8:00 and 20 2:00 to 10:00, that's R&D's schedule. 21 : So the 2:00 to 10:00 22 would be the people that would have found out, 23 I'm assuming. 24 : Yes. 25 : How do we find out at EFTA00060624 253 1 this point who was working in R&D from 2:00 to 2 10:00? 3 : You would have to get with 4 an R&D supervisor. 5 : Who is an R&D supervisor 6 that we can get with right now? 7 : Is that 8 -: doesn't know. We 9 reached out already. 10 : Oh. 11 : She said she doesn't know 12 but wouldn't they keep track of like who worked 13 14 : Rosencrance already did and 15 she didn't seem to know. Is there like a 16 schedule? Do they keep it somewhere? 17 : That - because, this is our 18 schedule and that goes back for years, so. 19 : That's why I would think 20 that also R&D would have something similar. 21 : But with them -- 22 : So let's get with -- 23 : -- they're not 24 , let's ask 25 her -- EFTA00060625 254 1 : Okay. 2 : -- about that. 3 : They're not on our - 4 they're not on a roster. The only time they 5 would be on a roster if it's - if they're doing 6 overtime with us. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : So we could say they do 9 night off, then we would put them on our roster 10 for night off. 11 : Okay. So it sounds like 12 you have very limited liability because you do 13 believe, in fact, you not only - and you're 14 confident you passed it to 15 : I'm very. 16 : Under oath, like, "Yes, I 17 did," or is it like, "I believe I did?" 18 : No, like, very, very, very 19 confident. 20 : Like you can actually 21 recall passing that information? 22 : Yes. The same thing with 23 being there too. 24 : So you specifically 25 recall, like almost like you can see, you can EFTA00060626 255 1 remember -- 2 : See -- 3 : I said this. 4 : I'm in SHU, is 5 walking in, we're there, "Make sure this guy 6 gets a bunkie." "All right, G." 7 : You said, "Make sure 8 Epstein," or, "This guy?" What did you say? 9 : Well, Epstein 10 : Okay. And is the 11 one that said, "All right, G?" 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : All right. And you 14 believe, although you can't recall with such 15 clarity, that you passed it to the Lieutenants. 16 : Correct. 17 : Okay. 18 : If or or any one 19 of them turns around and says that, "Hey 20 listen, you never told them," would they be 21 lying? 22 : Most like, I don't think 23 they would tell you that, but -. 24 : No, no, but I'm asking, I 25 said, you know, I have to cover both sides. EFTA00060627 256 1 : Yeah. 2 : Would they be lying if they - 3 . 4 : They - I strongly believe 5 they wouldn't tell you that -- 6 : Okay. 7 : Because, again, it's a 8 little bit of people, we're always - it was 9 only us throughout the whole time. So I 10 strongly, strongly believe that I spoke to - 11 , I even forgot was there, but, 12 and , yes. 13 : On the same note, if we ask 14 the same thing towards or 15 16 : I didn't speak to -. 17 I don't even remember seeing him that day. 18 : But 19 : But and 20 , yes. 21 : They would say that you spoke 22 to them about it? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Okay. 25 : Although, if they claim, EFTA00060628 257 1 "Yeah, we know he went but we didn't know that 2 he was not coming back," that also holds 3 weight? 4 : I was actually - because, 5 again, not everybody has WAB. 6 : Sure. 7 : Doesn't -. 8 : So could have you - could 9 have a new cellmate been assigned to Epstein 10 prior to 4:00 p.m.? 11 : Only if it was confirmed 12 that Reyes is not coming back. 13 : But a new cellmate can 14 not be - so, a new cellmate cannot be assigned 15 to Epstein until it's confirmed that Reyes 16 isn't coming back? 17 : I mean, you could assign 18 them even with Reyes being there. 19 : I know, but I'm just 20 saying, like in this case, that's his cellmate. 21 : That's his cell. He's -. 22 : So you -. 23 : He's keyed into that cell. 24 : Right. 25 : So until we know for a EFTA00060629 258 1 2 3 fact, "You know what? is not coming back, we're going to key him out," then, "Shit, let's get him -" - now we have from let's say 4 we found out left the building at 1 5 o'clock in the afternoon, we have until 8 6 7 o'clock to get him a bunkie because he's in attorney visit. 8 : And was it confirmed that 9 10 wasn't coming back while you were on duty? 11 : No. 12 13 he was not -- : So no one ever told you 14 : No. 15 : -- coming back. 16 : All I saw was that WAB and 17 I assumed he's not. 18 : You assumed, but, yeah, 19 but you didn't - but you be- 20 : But I didn't know for sure. 21 22 you should -. : -- but you didn't believe 23 : Get him a bunkie because, 24 25 "Hey, there's still a chance this guy could come back." EFTA00060630 259 1 : Okay. 2 : If I would have known for a 3 fact, we wouldn't even be here I think. 4 : And is that the reason 5 why you told ? Did you also say, "Hey, if 6 Reyes doesn't come back, get him a bunkie," or 7 did you just say, "Hey, Reyes isn't coming 8 back, get him a bunkie?" 9 : No, I know I didn't tell 10 him he is not coming back because I didn't 11 know. 12 : Right. 13 : So -. 14 : So what do you think you 15 actually said? 16 "Hey, you know, if Reyes 17 doesn't come back, he needs a bunkie." 18 : Okay. 19 : Which he already knows 20 Epstein needs a bunkie. 21 : And you said that? You 22 believe you said the same thing to both 23 and 24 : Yeah. 25 : And that would have been EFTA00060631 260 1 probably, believing, doing his rounds at 2 about 11:30? Would have that been when you 3 told him or do you believe you would have 4 called? 5 : No, probably when he's 6 doing his rounds. 7 : Doing his rounds? And 8 you said you actually do remember speaking with 9 that day? 10 _• I remember him being 11 there and just told him, I always talk to him. 12 : Would it be like talking 13 to him in the SHU? 14 : Yeah. 15 : So both and 16 would have visited -. 17 : One at a time. 18 : But they both would do 19 it? 20 : They both would have walked 21 over, yes. 22 : And are they both 23 actually required to do it or just one? 24 : No, they're both required 25 to do the rounds. EFTA00060632 261 1 2 3 : Oh, they are? : Yeah. : All right. I thought it 4 was one or the other. So looking at that 5 sheet, was also on it? Would he had to 6 have logged in like something, when he did a 7 round in the SHU? Can you get me that 8 Lieutenant's log? So both the Activities and 9 the Ops Lieutenant are both required to do a 10 round in the SHU. 11 : Correct. At least once per 12 shift. 13 : And that was also the 14 case in August of 2019? 15 : Yes. But like on the round 16 sheets, if one signed it, the other is not 17 going to sign over it. 18 19 20 21 : (Indiscernible *03:15:35). : There it is. : It's right here, sorry. : So is on this at 22 all? You can ask, but I don't remember him 23 there. 24 : No, he's actually not. 25 : So -- EFTA00060633 262 1 : Unless -. 2 : -- should have there been 3 a -. 4 : Unless because did 5 it. He didn't do it. Just like on -. 6 : Because we were told if 7 the Ops Lieutenant is too busy, he just tells 8 Activities Lieutenant to go do it. But you 9 believe 10 : I mean - I mean -- 11 : -- they actually both -. 12 : -- physically and you 13 actually, both Activities and Operations have 14 to walk and do the rounds. 15 : And you actually - not 16 together though. 17 : Not together. 18 : Separately. 19 : That's - and one or the 20 other fills it in on TRUSCOPE. 21 : Okay. So is it 22 surprising you to see that doesn't even 23 have anything logged on this day? 24 : No, not really. 25 : No? And does this EFTA00060634 263 1 suggest - when they sign this, does it show 2 where it was signed from? 3 : No. 4 : No? Just they can change 5 like this -. 6 : Well, wherever you logged 7 it from, that, I don't even know how it shows 8 up somewhere else. 9 : Okay. Because aren't 10 they supposed to actually log it from the 11 actual unit themselves? 12 : Well, now, if as long as 13 you do it one, you could log in from 14 downstairs, let's say the Lieutenant's office 15 and logged in a unit. 16 : But are you supposed - 17 like if someone visits the SHU, aren't they 18 supposed to actually log the round from the 19 SHU? 20 : Yes, log it in the computer 21 and log it in. 22 : Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's 23 what I was - okay. Did I get - so we said the 24 cellmate - so you said, told at least and 25 you remember that specifically. You believe EFTA00060635 264 1 that the other two, and them, they should 2 have - once it was actually verified that he 3 wasn't coming back, that's when it really 4 should have been done though. 5 : Correct. 6 : But we just don't know 7 exactly when it was verified or how it was 8 verified. 9 : Correct. 10 : And you believe R&D - how 11 does R&D receive that verification? 12 : I think through the 13 Marshals. 14 : So the Marshals tell them 15 and then they're supposed to make the proper 16 notifications? Are they supposed to go, you 17 said it depends on who is in R&D but they're 18 supposed to notify the appropriate housing 19 unit? 20 : No, they can just call the 21 housing unit, "Hey, this guy is not coming 22 back," or call Control. 23 : And let Control know. 24 : Correct. 25 : All right. And do we EFTA00060636 265 1 know who at - let me see that August 9th one - 2 who in Control - would Control always be in the 3 loop with that? 4 : Not really because there's 5 times that R&D would call SHU and if there's 6 somebody in SHU that has enough knowledge to 7 just key him back in, they'll key them back in, 8 or R&D would key them back in. So now, you 9 don't need to speak to R&D, I mean, you don't 10 need to speak to Control because the inmate is 11 walking back up to SHU and R&D already keyed 12 him back into the building. 13 : All right. And then, 14 what is the - what about like when Noel and 15 Thomas are working on their morning shift, 16 should they have recognized that Reyes wasn't 17 there? 18 : Definitely by that time 19 they - by 10 o'clock, it's way after, they 20 should have known that he's not coming back. 21 : But I just mean the start 22 of a new shift now. Now midnight starts a new 23 shift, we're now on morning watch. Should they 24 have recognized, "Hey, Epstein is by himself." 25 : Yes. EFTA00060637 266 1 : And when and how? 2 : Yes. 3 : No, when should have they 4 noticed and how? 5 : Right on their first round 6 on morning watch. 7 : So, during a round they 8 should have 9 : You have to do a count at 10 midnight, so, at that time you should have saw 11 he was by himself. That's a little light 12 should have went off in your head saying -. 13 : So immediately, right 14 away, midnight, Epstein is by himself. If the 15 count was done, they would have known, "We've 16 got to make this notification?" 17 : Yes. 18 : And would have they known 19 that that notification needed to be made? 20 : Yes. 21 : And do you believe that 22 both Thomas and Noel knew that Epstein was 23 required to have a cellmate? 24 : They should have known, 25 yes. EFTA00060638 267 1 : And how should have they 2 known? 3 : Due to the little paper I 4 had there and -. 5 : Well, the paper said, "Do 6 rounds," right? 7 : And supposedly somebody 8 else had another paper there saying that he 9 needed a bunkie, but -. 10 : Now, so this - so you 11 know of a different paper that was 12 : No, from what you told me 13 earlier. 14 : No, that was somebody 15 saying that you created another paper saying 16 that he -. 17 : Oh, that I don't remember. 18 : So you don't remember 19 ever creating a paper saying he needed a 20 bunkie. 21 : Maybe I did, but I don't 22 remember doing it. 23 : Okay. 24 : I remember this just 25 because it has the God phrase and it was kind EFTA00060639 268 1 of funny to us. 2 3 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. : But we all know that if an 4 inmate comes from suicide watch, he has to have 5 a bunkie. 6 : And everybody knows that. 7 : Everybody knows that. 8 : All right. Any other 9 questions? 10 : Just a couple follow ups. Do 11 you know why was in the SHU? 12 : If - I think he got into 13 a fight or somebody hit him while he was in 11 14 South. 15 : So he -. 16 : On that time. 17 : So he was put in there for 18 his own protection or did he -- 19 : Yes. 20 : -- assault somebody end up in 21 that? 22 : So, I think he had a fight 23 or somebody assaulted him and they both ended 24 up in SHU. 25 : What about Reyes? EFTA00060640 269 1 , I think it was 2 because of smoking, I think. No. 3 : Contraband? 4 : Yeah, contraband. Nothing 5 that I can remember. 6 : You got something else? 7 : The only other question I 8 would say is, outside of the SHU, now we got 9 and we got and then we also have 10 later on. If they were actually 11 conducting rounds as they should have, would 12 have they at that time known Epstein was by 13 himself and needed a cellmate? Should have 14 they known if they're conducting rounds after 15 4:00 p.m.? 16 : Yes. 17 : So all of them have some 18 liability then too to know, "Hey, this guy - 19 where is Epstein's cellmate?" 20 : Well, maybe at 4 o'clock, 21 depending what time they did the rounds, no, 22 because Epstein was always downstairs in his 23 attorney visit until 8 o'clock at night. 24 : But if no one is actually 25 in Epstein's cell, wouldn't they notice that? EFTA00060641 270 1 : They would notice that it 2 was empty, but, "Hey, where's Epstein?" "Oh, 3 he's in -" - because you - people don't ask for 4 Reyes usually. : Right. 6 : "Where's Epstein?" "He's 7 in his legal visit." "Oh, okay." And the 8 Lieutenant, the Lieutenant's office is like ten 9 steps away from the attorney conference so you 10 would know that Epstein is still there and you 11 got to approve the out count. 12 : All right. And when you 13 were there, do you recall that the Activities 14 and the Ops Lieutenant were actually conducting 15 rounds in the SHU? 16 : I know for a fact 17 and then he always just 18 walked around to see what was going on. 19 : Who would? 20 21 : So he wouldn't actually 22 do the -. 23 : No, he would walk around 24 just to see what was going on because he -- 25 : What -. EFTA00060642 271 1 : -- was the SHU Lieutenant 2 before too. 3 : What about 4 • , he's always 5 walking, but I didn't see him that day. 6 : What about 7 8 : I know for a fact she 9 always does her rounds. 10 : So if she says that she 11 wasn't required to walk the tier, she just 12 needed to check in, do you think that - what 13 would you say to that? 14 : Maybe she knows something I 15 don't know. Because, I mean, I'm a new 16 Lieutenant, I still - I walk around every 17 range, every tier. 18 : But when you were the SHU 19 OIC, you recall all these Lieutenants coming in 20 and actually walking the tiers? 21 : Yes, because that round 22 sheet, on the bottom of it, it says, 23 "Operations Lieutenant." 24 : And, yeah. 25 : If you look at it. EFTA00060643 272 1 : Yes. And that actually 2 is for conducting rounds of the tiers, not just 3 doing rounds with your -. 4 : In the Special Housing 5 Unit, correct. 6 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 7 guess what I'm saying is, some people are 8 saying, "No, it's, I'm doing a round with my 9 staff. I'm not doing a round on inmates, it's 10 the staff's members doing the rounds on 11 inmates, I'm doing a round with my staff." 12 13 14 : But, again, that bottom -- : That bottom. : -- little square says, 15 "Operations Lieutenant," which even if you 16 don't know anything about it, if you read it, 17 it says, "Operations Lieutenant." 18 : Doing a round of the 19 actual inmates? 20 : Or does it also mean that 21 they're certifying that those other rounds by 22 the COs were conducted? 23 : It could be that, but 24 regardless, you got to sign it and go down the 25 range. EFTA00060644 273 1 : Yeah, that's where I 2 wasn't sure if this was signed to make sure 3 that you guys were doing your job. 4 : I understand as to make 5 sure you did your round. 6 : Okay. Now, let's do 7 that. 8 : That the Lieutenant. 9 : Lieutenant. 10 : Lieutenant. 11 : Yes. 12 : Okay. 13 : Okay. I'm sure we could 14 sit here and just pick your brain all day long, 15 but we've been here a long time, so, are we 16 missing anything? 17 : No. That's it. I hope, 18 you know, everybody takes this as a learning 19 experience, you're fucking up, stop fucking up. 20 Excuse my language. 21 : Now, do you think one 22 person fucked up more than another in this? 23 : No, I mean, I think it was 24 going to happen if you wanted it to happen, 25 regardless whether rounds were done, whether he EFTA00060645 274 1 had a cellmate, maybe less likely that he would 2 have with a cellmate, but also, a cellmate 3 could go to the law library, you know. Thirty 4 minutes is a long time, 40 minutes is a long 5 time, so. 6 : Yeah, so, but you do 7 believe it's the cellmate thing that would have 8 actually helped keep him alive. 9 : I think it would have 10 helped a little bit. 11 : Right. 12 : If he wanted to do it, he 13 was going to do it. 14 : Uh-huh. And you think 15 everybody from the point that you left on plays 16 a large responsibility in the fact that he 17 wasn't assigned a new cellmate, especially 18 since you specifically told people, "Make sure 19 he gets a bunkie if Reyes doesn't come back." 20 : I mean, I don't blame 21 anybody. I think everybody should maybe passed 22 the information a little more. Maybe it got 23 lost in miscommunication. 24 : All right. 25 : No, that's it. EFTA00060646 275 1 : But you don't believe 2 that the people that you told will actually 3 admit that they were told it? 4 : Correct. 5 : Right. And you are 6 swearing, again, under oath, under penalty of 7 perjury of law that you did tell them that? 8 : I'm very, very confident 9 that I told more than one person. 10 : And who are you confident 11 that you told? 12 : I told was 13 there. Lieutenant saw Reyes leaving, 14 but even Reyes we weren't sure -. 15 : So actually saw 16 Reyes leaving? 17 : He was downstairs, I think, 18 -- 19 : Okay. 20 -- and saw. But, again, I 21 don't blame anybody and it's just unfortunate 22 everybody got to go through this. 23 : Yeah. Okay. You good? 24 : I'm good. 25 : Anything else you want to EFTA00060647 276 1 add for us? 2 : That's it. 3 : Thank you, sir. 4 : Thank you for -- 5 : I can't thank you enough. 6 : -- taking three hours of my 7 day. What time is it now? 8 : You got a nice cozy seat, 9 you know, we gave you the most comfortable one 10 we had. 11 : Turn up the heat. 12 : 4:39. 13 : All right. It's 4:40 14 p.m. on Wednesday, July 14, 2021. This is 15 Senior Special Agent and I'm 16 turning off the recorder. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00060648 277 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00060649