EFTA00062067.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 26 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00062067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00062068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : This is Special Agent 2 . It's September 22nd. The time is 3 approximately 12:50 p.m. 4 : 2021. 5 : 2021. My name is 6 Special Agent with the U.S. 7 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 8 General, New York Field Office, and these are 9 my credentials. 10 : Okay. 11 : This interview with unit 12 manager, , is being conducted 13 as part of an official U.S. Department of 14 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 15 investigation. Again, today's date is 16 September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m. 17 This interview is being conducted at the 18 Metropolitan Detention Center in , New 19 York. Also present is DOJ/OIG Senior Special 20 Agent, . This interview will 21 be recorded by me, Special Agent 22 Could everyone please identify themselves for 23 the record, and spell your last name? To 24 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent 25 EFTA00062069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Senior Special Agent 2 with the U.S. DOJ/OIG. 3 And these are my credentials. 4 : My name is 5 . Last name, unit 6 manager at MCC, TDY'd here, temporarily. 7 : Okay. Thank you for 8 clarifying that. 9 : At MDC 10 : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 13 circumstances. And you are being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ/OIG? 17 : Yes. 18 : Thank you. 19 : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 11I-226/2. The form states, The United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employees 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00062070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure and security failure." 6 : And just so you're aware, 7 that's what we're writing on everybody that we 8 interview. 9 : Okay. That's fine. 10 : Okay. 11 : No problem. 12 "This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer any questions. No disciplinary action 15 will be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 18 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 19 proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me." Please 25 read the form, review the form. If you EFTA00062071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 understand, please print your name and sign on 2 the right side. That's over here. That will 3 be your signature. Print your name right below 4 that. Yeah. This is Special Agent 5 , I'm signing as a signature of the 6 Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. 7 : And you understand, this 8 is a voluntary interview, you don't have to 9 answer our questions. You can stop it at any 10 time. Correct? 11 : Yes. 12 : Perfect. Thank you. 13 : The time is 12:54 p.m. As 14 Senior Special Agent, can you sign as a 15 witness, please? 16 : Sure. 17 : Thank you, sir. 18 : Yes. 19 : This is Senior Special 20 Agent I'm signing as the 21 witness. 22 : My phone is in there. 23 : Oh. There you go. 24 : Thank you. Before starting 25 the interview, I would like to place you under EFTA00062072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 oath. can you please raise your 2 right hand? 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : Do you swear to tell the 5 truth and nothing but the truth during this 6 interview? 7 : I do. 8 : Thank you. You can put your 9 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 10 understand any questions, and I'll try to 11 repeat it, or rephrase it for you. What is 12 your current home address? 13 : My current home address is 14 , New 15 York. 16 -: . You showed me your 17 credentials. Can you show that to me one more 18 time? 19 : Yeah. 20 -: is showing me his 21 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of 22 Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states 23 , Unit Manager, MCC New York 24 on it. Thank you for that. 25 : Yup. EFTA00062073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 : What is your current cell 2 phone number? 3 : My current cell phone number 4 is 5 : What is your highest level of 6 education? 7 : High school and some 8 college. 9 : What college? 10 : I went to, I studied at a 11 , and received a 12 certificate there for HVAC, Heating and 13 Plumbing. 14 : Is that in New York? 15 : That's in , as 16 in Union. 17 : Union. Okay. 18 : Union, New Jersey. 19 : I understand. Do you have 20 any military service? 21 : Yes, I do. 22 : What? 23 : Four years Army, four years 24 active, and three years, nine months National 25 Guard. EFTA00062074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Are you currently still in 2 the military, or -- 3 : No. 4 -- are you discharged? 5 : Discharged. 6 : Honorable? 7 : Honorable discharge. 8 : And what grade? 9 : E-4. 10 : Thank you for that. Thank 11 you for your service. And what was the enter 12 duty date with the BOP? 13 : March 6, 1994. 14 : And when did you graduate 15 from BOP training? 16 : Hmm. 17 : If you don't remember. 18 year? 19 : Yeah. It was - yeah - 20 don't remember. 21 : So, 1994. Around then. 22 : I went in 1994. So, I had 23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after '94. 24 So, right around '94. Some time. 25 : And you mentioned that you're EFTA00062075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the 2 MDC program. 3 : That is correct. 4 : And you were TDY from MCC? 5 : That is correct. 6 : When did you start at the 7 MCC? 8 : I came here, I want to say, 9 around a month and a half ago because they're 10 remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they 11 sent me over here, and there was a -. They 12 gave me a letter of, I want to say it said, not 13 temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until 14 further notice. 15 : And your position in August 16 of 2019 was unit manager, also? 17 : Yes. 18 : And which units, again, were 19 you? 20 : Unit. My unit was unit 11. 21 North 11 South. And 9 North at the time. 22 : Do you recall being 23 interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding 24 the Epstein matter in August 2019? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 : What I have in front of me is 2 a 302. It's called a report, of investigation 3 written by the FBI, and I'm not going to read 4 through the whole thing, but we're going to go 5 through a few portions that we need 6 clarification on. And we'll go from there. 7 The paragraph that I'm starting with, it 8 starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry 9 - is 8/16/2019. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Because the interview was 12 on 8/12/2019. 13 : 8/12/2019. During the days" 14 - I'm reading from the memo - "during the days 15 prior to Epstein's death, ran into 16 Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to 17 meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or 18 Thursday. Epstein told he needed to 19 set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp. 20 *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social 21 calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set 22 it up because he was always meeting with his 23 lawyers,and was never in the SHU. Epstein 24 asked to assist him because his normal 25 unit manager was on leave." Who was his normal EFTA00062077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 unit manager? 2 : His normal unit manager was 3 Unit Manager 4 • 5 • (Phonetic Sp. 6 *00:08:47). 7 • . Okay. 8 : Do you know how to spell 9 that last name? 10 : Her name first name is III- 11 12 . Okay. 13 : Thank you. 14 : Yeah. Thank you. 15 "Epstein." Sorry. 16 looked in the system and verified the only call 17 made by Epstein, from the MCC, was the three- 18 minute call given to inmates at the time of the 19 initial intaking to the facility. made 20 the request for Epstein, and obtained a paper 21 print out of his pack and piand provided it to 22 Epstein." When you provided to Epstein, was it 23 active? 24 : He has to activate it. The 25 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we EFTA00062078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has 2 to activate it. 3 : Okay. What do they have to 4 do activate it? 5 : What they have to do is, 6 they would have to get on the phone, which, he 7 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a 8 phone call for every 30 days. So, in general 9 population, they would get on the phone, they 10 would record their voice. Once they record, by 11 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then 12 it would actually activate, and then they can't 13 money on the phone, and then have to put money 14 on a phone, then they could use the phone. 15 : So, when you gave him the 16 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet 17 18 : That is correct. 19 : -- he still had to active it. 20 : That is correct. 21 : And is it that he has to put 22 money on it, too? 23 : That is correct. 24 : Okay. 25 : And was there any way for EFTA00062079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 him to activate it, with his current situation 2 at the time being in the SHU? 3 : Not that particular day, he 4 was requested a phone. It would have took him, 5 to actually activate it in SHU, and add money 6 to it, because when you activate it in Special 7 Housing Unit, let's say he activates it to 8 today. He would have to fill out a green form. 9 Usually, they would do it on the computer. 10 They don't have computers in SHU where they 11 could do it. So, they would have to fill out a 12 green form, which would have to be given to 13 them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. 14 That green form is then filled out by them. 15 And then, it's submitted to our ITS, which then 16 will put it, put the money on the money on his 17 account. I would say it would take, like, 18 three or four days, to a week, for it to 19 actually be activated. Be in his account. 20 : And was he provided a 21 green form? 22 : No. Because at that 23 particular time, I just gave him the pin and 24 pack. That was it. 25 : So, the pin and pack EFTA00062080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 couldn't be used, though, is what you're 2 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then 3 request a green form? 4 : That is correct. When 5 inmates originally come in, we give them their 6 pin and pack then. So, it should have been 7 activated when he first came in the building. 8 : Okay. Do you know why it 9 wasn't? 10 : I wasn't his unit team. 11 : Sure. 12 : But it should have been 13 activated then. 14 : Okay. So, but the way 15 that this went, was you provided him with it, 16 but what you provided him, he couldn't have 17 actually used? 18 : No. 19 : And at what point does he 20 request the green form? 21 : I was going to actually, the 22 next day, give him that green form, because I 23 knew, I knew it was the next step. 24 : Okay. 25 : He didn't even have to ask EFTA00062081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 for that, because I knew it was the next step. 2 Once again, he wasn't my inmate, but I knew, as 3 unit manager -- 4 : Okay. 5 : -- what was the next step. 6 The next step was to give him the green form, 7 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this 8 amount of money on my form. And then, give it 9 to him that way. 10 : Yeah. 11 : Okay. So, the days 12 leading up to Epstein's death, you ran into him 13 and he asked for it. Did you give it to him 14 that day, or did you give it to him the day -? 15 : No. That day. 16 : The 9th? 17 : Yup. 18 : So, the day prior to him 19 being found in his cell? 20 : Yup. 21 : Okay. 22 : And correction. I'm sorry. 23 Because it's not done by computers, I want to 24 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he 25 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do EFTA00062082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can 2 actually put money over the phone. 3 : Okay. But there was no 4 phone for him to actually do that with? 5 : No. Not, like, as far as a 6 phone to give it to, and let him record it. 7 No. 8 : But being assigned to the 9 SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being 10 in the attorney conference. I mean, would he 11 have the ability to activate that? 12 : In the attorney conference, 13 there was no, there is no phone in there. 14 : In the SHU, though, could 15 he activated it? 16 : In the SHU, we would have to 17 actually give him the phone, the phone would 18 have to be during his validation time. So, 19 that validation times starts in the time that 20 you come in the prison. So, say if he came in 21 on the 19th, his activation time would be the 22 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. 23 So, being that he never used the phone, he 24 would be in there with an activated, probably, 25 the next day. EFTA00062083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 : But from within the SHU? 2 : Within the SHU. If he was 3 given a phone. 4 : Okay. 5 : If he was given a phone. 6 Yeah. 7 : And they do have phones 8 in the SHU, though. Is that what you're 9 saying? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. 12 : Just a quick question. That 13 you mentioned it was on the 9th? 14 : Well, it says on the days 15 leading up, he asked for it, but you said on 16 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him. 17 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he 18 asked for it? 19 : No. The actual date that he 20 asked for the form, because the same day he 21 asked for a phone, I gave him his 22 : Oh. Because yeah, in the 23 interview that you had, you know, a couple days 24 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during 25 the days prior to Epstein's death. So, days -- EFTA00062084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 : (Indiscernible *00:13:34). 2 : -- plural. 3 : Right, right, right. 4 : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) -- 5 : So, that -. 6 -- if it says either 7 Wednesday or Thursday. 8 : Yeah. It was either 9 Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure what date. 10 : So, not on the date that -- 11 : So, not -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- on the 9th. 14 : Right. 15 : Okay. 16 : Either that Wednesday or 17 that Thursday, he was given that. 18 : Okay. 19 : Because I like I said, he 20 was always in court, but when he asked me, I 21 came down, and I saw him with his lawyer. So, 22 I would, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to 23 set it up. 24 : Oh, he was in court, or was 25 he -? EFTA00062085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. He was downstairs. : In attorney conference? 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. 5 : Sorry. So, it was given 6 to him on either Wednesday or Thursday. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Which would possibly -- 9 : That would be 10 August 7th -- 11 -- August 7th -- 12 or the 8th. 13 : -- or the 8th. 14 : That is correct. 15 : And when you gave it to him, 16 was his attorneys present? 17 : Yes. 18 : Because it states, "Epstein 19 was happy, as were his lawyers, who made a 20 thumbs up gesture." 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Okay. I'm going to, you 23 know, read on. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 "On Friday, August 9th, 2019, EFTA00062086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as 2 the duty officer. Epstein told he 3 wanted to make a call to his mother, but had 4 not yet been able to set up his pack and pin. 5 , he was ensuring his inmates have 6 family socialization as part of his job, so he 7 allows inmates having technical problems with 8 their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone 9 call. told Epstein his watch was 10 ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way 11 he would be able to help him make a call was if 12 he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier 13 than normal. checked and confirmed 14 that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and 15 pin." 16 : That is correct. 17 "At approximately 6:45 p.m., 18 found Epstein waiting for him, to make 19 that call." Where was he waiting? 20 : In attorney conference, with 21 his lawyers. 22 : Okay. And did you go in 23 there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey, 24 listen, he's waiting for you? 25 : No. They notified me in EFTA00062087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 attorney conference that he was ready because 2 they knew I was leaving at 7:00. 3 : Okay. "Epstein was 4 handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs. 5 did not know which cell was Epstein's, 6 and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on 7 G-tier, which prefers for phone calls 8 because inmates are not locked in their cells 9 with the ability to pull the phone cord into 10 their locked cell, and use it to commit self- 11 harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the 12 shower, where the guards are also physically 13 present, with Epstein. used the first 14 outlet on the left, which is the legal line. 15 Epstein provided with the phone number 16 beginning with (347)." Now, before I go on, it 17 says you used the first outlet on the left, 18 legal line. Why the legal line? 19 : Because they have two lines 20 in there. One is a legal line, and one is, 21 where he uses his phone. So, he - let's say if 22 I plugged it in there, he can't use it because 23 his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal 24 line, like we give right now, we give inmates 25 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to EFTA00062088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 put in that code, in order for them to make 2 that call. So, there's a certain call where 3 the inmates don't have. 4 So, I would have to dial that - at that 5 time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial 6 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello, 7 boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him. 8 Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't 9 You can just dial out on that phone. So, a 10 legal line is set up for us to give inmates 11 legal calls in SHU. 12 : What is the difference 13 between the legal line and the other line? 14 : The -. 15 : Other than the fact that you 16 need the pin. Is there a difference between 17 both of them? 18 : Yes. The difference is an 19 inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and 20 that's social call. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : For him to make any social 23 calls to his family, which is, they're 24 recorded. That one is recorded. The legal 25 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal EFTA00062089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be 2 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this 3 is , I have your client here. Boom, 4 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here's the phone, and 5 we give him the phone. And then, we don't stay 6 within that vicinity to listen to their phone 7 calls. And that's the same phone that they 8 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them 9 that call, we actually give it to them 10 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give 11 it to them, we give them the phone right in 12 front of us. 13 : It states, about that, 14 "Epstein told he wanted to make a call 15 to his mother." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : But that was not a legal 18 call, though. 19 : No. 20 : It was a personal call. 21 : That is correct. 22 : How come the legal line? 23 : Because if he didn't have 24 something set up, how would he make a phone 25 call? And this inmate been with us for a EFTA00062090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 while. And me, personally, if he was my 2 inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why 3 his wasn't set up, I don't know. And I will 4 give you a good example. R. Kelly's up there, 5 his is set up. Why his wasn't set up, my job 6 as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an 7 inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. 8 So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a 9 phone call? 10 He's been asking for this phone call for a 11 while. From his unit manager, from everybody, 12 and I'm, like, why does this inmate don't have 13 his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm 14 not his unit team. That's not my 15 responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, 16 it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty 17 officer, and I know that I verified that he 18 didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's 19 just like any other inmate. It's only right to 20 make sure that he stays in contact with his 21 family, because that's part of the program 22 statement of inmates visiting their families 23 and keeping in contact with their family 24 members. He didn't have a line to make it on. 25 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it EFTA00062091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on a legal line. 2 : Did you have a conference 3 with anyone above you, to get permission for 4 that, or was it just a decision made by you? 5 : I made a decision because, 6 as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00 7 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I 8 wouldn't call the warden at home and say, hey, 9 can I give him this legal call? Because that's 10 what the duty officer job is. The duty officer 11 is there representing the warden while she's 12 not there. So, basically, I'm over the 13 lieutenants, I'm over They would have to 14 contact me. When incidents happen, they have 15 to contact the duty officer. Then I contact 16 the region, the duty officer. 17 : Oh, I see. 18 : So, I don't contact the 19 warden. I contact the regional duty officer. 20 : So, as the duty officer, you 21 report to the region? 22 : That is correct. 23 : Do you recall having a 24 conversation, though, with the captain, and him 25 providing you the authority to do it? EFTA00062092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. Because with unit 2 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone 3 call is not the captain's responsibility. 4 : No, no, no. We had 5 information that you actually spoke with him in 6 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the 7 call. 8 -• 9 : Is that true? Yeah. 10 : I don't - it's been so long 11 - I don't recall. I could have. But at the 12 same time, even if he would have said yes or 13 no, I would have gave him the call. Because 14 15 : Okay. 16 : -- because my, myself, just 17 being unit team, inmates, it is our 18 responsibility as a unit team, and our program 19 statement, that we make sure they keep in 20 contact with their family members, or whoever. 21 Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have 22 to. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : We have inmates that are - 25 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact, EFTA00062093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates that indigent, that don't have no 2 money. 3 : Yeah. 4 : How will we give them a 5 phone call? We give them the phone call the 6 same way. Inmates who don't have money, 7 they're indigent. So, if they need a phone 8 call, we have to give them a phone call. We 9 can't just not give them a phone call, but we 10 would call the number, give them the phone 11 call, let them speak to - and we give them a 12 15-minute phone call. 13 : Is that on the legal 14 line, as well? 15 : Yes. 16 : Okay. 17 : Because if they don't have 18 no money, -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- there's no way to put 21 money on it, but we don't give them money. 22 They're indigent. And that will be on their 23 : What is the word you're 24 ending? 25 : -- indigent. EFTA00062094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. : So, that will be on their 3 We would look on their money form. And 4 basically, any - what they - how they determine 5 if you're indigent, they go by how much money 6 you received in the last six months. They go 7 by six months. So, if an inmate only received, 8 I think it's, I want to say under $50 bucks, 9 that inmate is indigent. It's now in the unit 10 team's responsibility. Also, we not just give 11 them phone calls. An indigent inmate could get 12 up to five legal stamps, every month, and if he 13 wants to do his lawyer, he can get up to five 14 every week. 15 : Now -- 16 : Indigent inmates. 17 : -- so, back to 18 though. Does that - from what you said - does 19 that mean, like, it wasn't even him, and his 20 kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility, 21 to tell you that you were authorized? 22 : I think me and had a 23 rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there. 24 An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. 25 So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, EFTA00062095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 if I did ask him, it was me giving him a 2 courtesy. I would have did that to any 3 captain. 4 : Okay. 5 : If you was the captain. 6 It's just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give 7 this guy a phone call. This, this, and that. 8 could have said to me, oh, I don't think 9 that's a good idea. And I would have said, 10 okay. Probably would have went to somebody 11 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the 12 same time, once again, there's nobody there 13 after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would 14 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm 15 going to give him a phone call. 16 : Okay. And you don't 17 remember, though, having that conversation 18 : No. 19 : -- with , and being 20 21 : And I -- 22 : -- (Indiscernible 23 *00:22:13). 24 : -- and I could have. I 25 could have had that conversation, because Like EFTA00062096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE I 1 I said, we talk on a regular basis. So, I 2 could have. 3 : Just bringing yourself 4 back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet 5 with him, the attorneys are in there. They 6 give you the thumbs up, and you're going back, 7 and you go into an elevator. Do you remember 8 at all being in the elevator with you? 9 : No. I remember being 10 around because - and the reason why I know that 11 - is because doesn't have a lieutenant 12 to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9 13 working there that day. 14 : Okay. 15 : I do remember that. So, if 16 you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or 17 because you have to have a GS-11 and above. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : So, he was there that day. 20 I do remember that. 21 : Okay. But you just don't 22 remember that conversation? 23 : That is correct. 24 : Okay. Perfect. 25 : Now that the call was given EFTA00062097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 on the legal line, was there any steps to make 2 sure, because it's supposed to be recorded, you 3 know, an inmate call, a social call, is 4 supposed to be recorded. 5 : Right. 6 : He said he's calling his 7 mother. Was there any steps that you should 8 have taken to ensure that that call was 9 monitored somehow? 10 : The only way we monitor it 11 is, I made the phone call, hello, how you 12 doing? I don't say, hey, is this his mother, 13 because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this 14 his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his 15 mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, 16 I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 17 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 18 minutes. When he's done with the phone call, 19 disconnect, and that's it. 20 So, we don't know. Let's say, right now, 21 I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. 22 For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or 23 whatever. Do we know there's a three-way, or 24 anything? We don't know. So, we sit down. We 25 time it. 15 minutes. And we're done. There's EFTA00062098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 no way to record that phone. There's no way to 2 pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can 3 get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, 4 at that particular time. 5 That was in place since I've been at MCC. 6 Has anything changed? The only thing changed 7 since I've been there is they took out all of 8 the legal lines, and they put them in one 9 particular area. They took them all out of 10 SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, 11 and they changed the code for that particular 12 reason. 13 : What -? 14 : And that wasn't after 15 Epstein. It took a while. 16 : So, they do it in 17 response because people were doing that, was 18 what you mean? 19 : The reason -. I'm one of 20 the ones who actually brought it to the 21 captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible 22 *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was 23 (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a 24 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even 25 after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was EFTA00062099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there, she - and anybody would say, okay, 2 inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone 3 restriction. 4 But remember, the warden is the only one 5 who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone 6 call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can 7 you give him a phone call? He's on a phone 8 restriction. There's only two ways you could 9 give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you 10 can't give it to him on a social, you give it 11 to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs 12 the cop out. She approves it. Well, any 13 warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not 14 trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how 15 it's done. That's how I've seen it done. 16 Once we get it approved, we give the 17 inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, 18 hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the 19 chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - 20 give him two minutes - hey, you have two 21 minutes left and that's it. Take the phone 22 from the inmate. We don't know that person is 23 24 : Okay. So, you are 25 supposed to -- EFTA00062100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 : -- because (Indiscernible 2 *00:25:32). 3 : -- you're supposed to sit 4 there with them, though. Correct? 5 : No. There's nothing saying 6 that. That's just, like, sit there and do 7 what? 8 : Oh, so, everything that 9 we've been told is that, if you give the person 10 a call, on a legal line, if it's not the 11 attorney, you're supposed to sit there and 12 monitor the call, because it's not being 13 recorded. 14 : Well, they -. And since 15 I've been there, and that's the reason why I 16 asked them to take it out. Because how you 17 putting somebody on a range, and saying that, 18 hey, this person -. If that's the case, then 19 let's do it the right way. The right way -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 is to belly chain the 22 inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right 23 way. Take him out - because that's what we do 24 down there - you take him out. You pull the 25 inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded EFTA00062101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 area. You make the phone call. On speaker. 2 Because that's how we do it downstairs. And 3 then, you give it to him on speaker. And then, 4 you let him -. If he wants his 15-minute phone 5 call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk 6 to on speaker. 7 That's how Epstein received his first 8 phone call. It's a three-minute phone call on 9 speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could 10 say, this is the way to do it. That's not the 11 proper way. The proper way to make a phone 12 call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate 13 secluded, because these guys can hear, too. 14 So, you don't know what he's saying. He could 15 be crying for his death. And you got other 16 inmates right there. In the next cell who 17 could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this 18 to me. That. 19 So, the proper way is to bring the inmate 20 out, put him in a belly chain, because then he 21 has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the 22 phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put 23 him on speaker. That's the proper way. 24 : I'm going to finish the 25 paragraph. EFTA00062102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2 : I know. I'm just -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- (Indiscernible 5 *00:27:14). 6 : And before we go -- 7 : (Indiscernible *00:27:14). 8 : -- just one question, 9 though. Is it pin and pack, or pack and pin? 10 : It's either way. 11 : Oh, okay. 12 : You could say it. Because 13 it's a pin and pack, pack and pin. It's - 14 yeah. 15 : It's all, and it's 16 interchangeable? 17 : Yeah. Because one, your 18 pin is a different number, and your pack is a 19 different number. 20 : Okay. 21 : When you pick up the phone, 22 they're going to say, hey, say your name, and 23 enter your pack number. You enter your pack 24 number, and then it's going to say, enter your 25 pin. That's, like, a four-digit pin. EFTA00062103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 : Okay. 2 : I'm going to read the rest of 3 it. "Epstein provided with the phone 4 number beginning with (347). dialed 5 the number, and a male picked up the phone. 6 handed the phone to Epstein, and heard 7 him say, hey, how you doing? How is 8 everything? then left because his 9 watch was over, and Epstein was being guarded by SHU C.O.s and T. Noel, and II 11 from internal. described 12 Epstein as very happy that he was able to make 13 a phone call." 14 : That is correct. 15 : Now, can you walk us through. 16 So, once he brought him up. Right? And you 17 put the legal line in -- 18 : They brought him out. 19 you dialed -. 20 : I just walked up with the 21 internal. Internal. All inmates have to be 22 walked by an internal. So, , myself 23 escort him up. We brought him up. He was 24 already in chains already. So, I mean, in the 25 cuffs. Bring him up. Go to the shower. Take EFTA00062104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 him out the cuffs. Put him and secure him. 2 Take the cuffs off. Once again, the legal line 3 can't fit to where the inmate could get 4 everything. He just has a handle. So, we dial 5 the number. Hello? Give it to him. And once 6 that's at 7:00, I told the officers, hey, make 7 sure he get his 15-minutes, and after that, 8 he's done. was there. They was, like, 9 okay, no problem. And that was it. 10 : So, you told Noel and 11 12 : Yes. 13 : -- and was also 14 there, that, after 15 minutes, cut off the 15 call? 16 : That is correct. 17 : Did you give them 18 instructions on listening to the phone call at 19 all? 20 : No. 21 : Where was - this is G-tier - 22 where was G-tier compared to the officer SHU -- 23 : Okay. 24 : -- and the officer desk? If 25 you're looking at the desk, where is it? EFTA00062105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 : Let's say the desk is by me. 2 : Yeah. 3 : Okay? You go in, and the 4 desk is me, you have tier, this is the first 5 tier. And this is the, with the door. So, 6 it's, G-tier is over here. 7 : Behind the desk? 8 : No. The desk is here. 9 : Okay. 10 : So, I could see -- 11 : All right. 12 : I could see G-tier. So, 13 G-tier is here. I could see it. 14 : All right. Okay. 15 : Yeah. And you could see G- 16 tier. 17 : And when you walk up G-tier, 18 where is the shower? 19 : Right there. 20 : Right when you walk in? 21 : That's the only -. That's 22 the only shower that is outside. All the other 23 showers are inside. So, you have to -. So, 24 you can't see it. So, G-tier is the only 25 shower that's, like, you could actually see. EFTA00062106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 Like, if you sit down, you can actually see 2 that G-tier shower. That's the only shower. 3 All the other showers are inside. You have a 4 cage. Shower. So, you have a cage where the 5 inmates inside the shower. This one, you can 6 actually see the shower because it's on the 7 outside. That's the only one because - excuse 8 me - that G-tier is made specifically for the 9 high-profile inmates. 10 : Okay. 11 : That's why it's made like 12 that. 13 : Now, based on, when you gave 14 the phone call to him, where was and 15 Noel? Where they at the G -? At the shower 16 area, or where they sitting -- 17 : No. 18 : -- at the desk? 19 : They were sitting at the 20 desk. 21 : The desk. And what about 22 23 -: was with me. And 24 then, I told , I said, hey, just make 25 sure he gets off. He's internal now - so, he EFTA00062107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 probably went back to doing his internal 2 duties. Internal, any time they need an 3 inmate, that's his job to escort them back and 4 forth. 5 : And you left for the day, 6 after that? 7 : That is correct. At 7:00. 8 : Did you make any phone calls 9 back, to check in on them, and to verify that 10 Epstein was finishing his phone call? 11 : No. 12 : So, you just -. So, Noel 13 said that you spoke to her and said, hey, make 14 - hey, get that phone, his phone back after his 15 phone call is done. 16 : I remember speaking to her. 17 And I do. So, I don't know if I was, like, in 18 the car, in -. But I did ask her. I said, 19 hey, did you take the phone from the inmate? 20 And she said, yes. 21 : And that was that night, 22 before you left? 23 : That is correct. 24 : Okay. She said that 25 : So, it could have been -- EFTA00062108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 43 : -- she said that -. : I could have been in the 3 institution, I could been outside of my car. 4 Or I could have been going on the train. But I 5 did contact her and say, yes. Did you make 6 sure you take him off the phone? Yes. 7 : Okay. She said you said, 8 hey, make sure you get that phone back from 9 him, because his time is up, and then, she 10 said, okay. And that's when she went and took 11 it back. Does that sound right? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. You want to ask 14 more about that comment? Why -? Is that why 15 you had contacted her, though, to make sure 16 that she -? 17 : That is correct. Because 18 don't want him going over that 15 minutes. I 19 mean, 16, 17 minutes, but to stay on the phone, 20 no. 21 : Okay. 22 : So, yeah. I would 23 : Okay. 24 : I would definitely want 25 to verify that. EFTA00062109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Did you talk -- : (Indiscernible *00:31:45). 3 : -- was there anything, 4 any other conversations you had with her -- 5 : No. 6 : -- with Noel? 7 : Not that I recall. It could 8 have, could have been. But all, the main thing 9 was to take him off the telephone. 10 : Okay. And you did that 11 from your car? 12 : My - yeah - my phone. 13 Either from the car or the train. I don't know 14 what I caught that day. But from my personal 15 phone. 16 : Okay. And do you 17 remember at all, around what time that would 18 have been? 19 : It could have been, if I 20 left at 7:00, it had to be no later than 7:00, 21 7:15. 22 : Okay. 23 : Yeah. 24 : Now, going back, I'm going to 25 read a part here. dialed the number, EFTA00062110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 and a male picked up the phone." Being that, 2 when Epstein asked to make a phone call, he 3 said he was going to - he wanted to call his 4 mother. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : Did you verify who the person 7 was? Did you ask about his mother? Did you 8 ask to speak to a specific person? Identify 9 the person before you -- 10 : I did not. 11 how come? 12 : I just didn't. And there 13 was no reason why I didn't. I just didn't. 14 : Because he was just - we have 15 to get clarification - because he asked for his 16 mother, but it was a male that picked up, and 17 it was, you know, contradictory to what he 18 requested, to who the phone was being handed 19 off to. That didn't. How come - I know you 20 didn't ask - but is there a reason? Normally, 21 do you verify if an inmate is talking to the 22 person that they have requested to speak to? 23 : I mean, do I verify? 24 There's not a lot of inmates that we do give 25 phone calls. So, let's say, if a dude said, EFTA00062111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick 2 up. Okay. How you doing? Because he's giving 3 me that number, and I'm verifying that that 4 number is on his - but which he don't, you 5 can't verify his numbers, because he don't have 6 an account. So, give him the phone, and that's 7 it. I don't Me verifying it, was it, you 8 know, was it something I should have done? 9 Yes. Was it something I did? No. 10 : Okay. And are inmates 11 allowed to call just anyone, or is there a 12 specific list of people that they are allowed 13 to call? 14 : Originally how it works is, 15 if an inmate is asking for, of course, his 16 mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he 17 wants to speak to, usually, it's not ever a 18 friend. It's usually immediate family members. 19 Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts, 20 whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone 21 list. But once again, how can an inmate have a 22 phone list when he has no account set up? 23 : So, the pack and pin, if he 24 set that up, would have had a phone list -- 25 : That is -. EFTA00062112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- and certain people he 2 could have called? 3 : That is correct. 4 : Okay. You got anything on 5 that? 6 : I'll circle back, after 7 you finish your -. 8 : That's all on that topic. 9 : Oh, okay. Yeah. No. 10 So, I mean, I just want to get more 11 clarification. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : When you said that you 14 gave him the phone call, and then, did you 15 inform Noel and , with present, or 16 did you say for one, or the other, or who did 17 you say, make sure this phone call ends in 15 18 minutes? 19 : All three of them was there. 20 When I -- 21 : All three. 22 : -- when I actually told 23 them, because remember, brought him up 24 with me. 25 : Right. EFTA00062113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 : And I said, you guys, just 2 make sure it's 15 minutes and that's it. 10-4. 3 And that's the reason why I made that phone 4 call. But I made it to the SHU. So, whoever 5 would have answered it, it either would have 6 been or Noel. It wouldn't have been 7 because he's internal. 8 : All right. So, you 9 didn't -. So, I thought the way that you 10 answered it was that you told make sure 11 it ends in 15 minutes. But you would have told 12 Noel or 13 : Pretty much everybody. 14 : Okay. 15 : Everybody was there when I 16 said -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- make sure he's off in 15 19 minutes. Everybody was there. 20 : Okay. 21 : Because when you talking to 22 23 : But because -- 24 : -- as I'm talking - 25 was internal, EFTA00062114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he wouldn't stay that 15 minutes. 2 : Right. 3 : Right? 4 : So, let's say, right now, 5 and I'm saying, hey, you guys make sure it's 6 all - he's there, and the desk is only over 7 there, so, everybody knows, hey, you guys, make 8 sure he's off. Even if I told 9 specifically, I told - they all knew, because I 10 said, hey, make sure he's off in 15 minutes. 11 And that's the reason why I called SHU back. 12 Because I know I can get into SHU. Like, if I 13 call back, I couldn't get because he's 14 all over the building. 15 : So, that's where I was 16 just wanted to verify. It was more, like, you 17 told Noel and was present and a 18 witness. 19 : That is correct. 20 : Okay. So, it was 21 addressed to Noel and 22 : That is correct. 23 -- who worked in the SHU. 24 : That is correct. 25 : Okay. And then, you EFTA00062115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 just, and what caused you - if you told them 2 that there - what caused you to follow up with 3 them in the car? 4 : And that was just me, where 5 let's say you have officers - it was only two. 6 And I don't know how many inmates we had at the 7 time, but we had several. This is not 8 midnight. So, me personally, they should have 9 more officers in there. So, they could have 10 got busy. 11 : Sure. 12 : It could have been a use of 13 force. IT could have been anything. So, what 14 if those inmates still got the phone? So, at 15 least they could have went down there, pulled 16 the - all they have to do is pull the jack out. 17 There was nothing else they can do. 18 : Okay. 19 : So, I just wanted to make 20 sure that was done. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Because I didn't want him to 23 stay on that phone. 24 : Now, would it -- 25 : Over 15 minutes. EFTA00062116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 would it typically be 2 - and I understand what you're saying, it 3 sounds like MCC kind of wasn't doing things 4 right - but per BOP, should have you, as the 5 unit manager, been the person that, if you 6 provided the telephone call, you should have 7 actually sat there and monitored it? 8 : Yes. And that's what I went 9 over with you guys, the proper way to make a 10 phone call -- 11 : Right. 12 : -- if he wanted that phone 13 call, is the inmate come out. He wouldn't be 14 in the shower. 15 : Right. 16 : The inmate come out. The 17 inmate go to, let's say, an area, and you put 18 it on speaker. 19 : So, that's the proper 20 way. So, why -- 21 : That is the proper way. 22 : -- wasn't it -. And 23 just, we have to cover this. 24 : Yeah. 25 : Why wasn't it that proper EFTA00062117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 way done? 2 : Shortness of staff. Due to 3 the shortness of staff. And why didn't he - 4 and I always ask the question - why didn't he - 5 what was so special? - why didn't he have a 6 pack and pin set up? Every inmate in the BOP 7 has always had a pen and a pack set up. 8 : Okay. 9 : So, my question, my question 10 to myself is, why is he the only one? 11 : Sure. 12 : And he's not endogen. 13 : Now, going back to 14 According to you said he spoke 15 with you in the elevator, and that you said, 16 yeah, go ahead, give him his phone call. But 17 make sure it's monitored and logged. Do you 18 remember that -? 19 : In the book. Yes. 20 : So, when he said, make 21 sure it's monitored and logged, wouldn't that 22 have been, like, make sure you stay with him 23 while it's going on? 24 : No. Monitor and log is just 25 make sure we had a logbook that it was actually EFTA00062118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 logged in a phone logbook. And at the time, 2 they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was 3 aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there, 4 they didn't have. We made, like, I recently 5 made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that 6 myself because I know what was - what we was 7 doing in other prisons. They didn't have one 8 here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And 9 it wasn't after Epstein. 10 I just said, if we're giving inmates legal 11 calls, we need to have that documented, and so 12 an inmate - let's say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and 13 BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I 14 never got this call. Same thing with social 15 calls. Social calls have to be logged in the 16 book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print 17 the data off and say, okay, you made a 15 18 minute phone, but we should be logging it in 19 because it should be also the person who's 20 giving that inmate that phone call. 21 : So, was that phone call 22 logged, then? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. So, it wasn't 25 logged, and it wasn't monitored. Okay. As far EFTA00062119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 as who he spoke with, do you know who he spoke 2 with? 3 : I do not. 4 : No. Okay. All right. 5 Do you want to talk about the memo? 6 : Yeah. Going back, you said 7 that he requested multiple times -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 -- for his pack and pen to be 10 set up. Not to you, but to other people. Do 11 you know who he requested that to? 12 : He requested it to me, but 13 he told me numerous times that he actually was 14 unit team. The only unit team he had at the 15 time was Unit Manager was the 16 counselor. That was . And who 17 else was it? I don't think had -. I 18 think she had . There was one more 19 person. I'm trying to think who else she had 20 under her. . Oh. And I'm want -. I 21 want to say (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:46). i 22 don't know if he was under her. I know she had 23 two people under her. 24 : Okay. 25 : But that was their EFTA00062120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 responsibility to set that up. And let's say - 2 I'll give you a good example - let's use R. 3 Kelly. All right? He's in my unit now. Okay? 4 So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new 5 guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going 6 to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and 7 pin. That's something they're going to do. 8 Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It 9 doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line. 10 He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He 11 set it up the same way. 12 So, saying that is how long do we have 13 Epstein, and it wasn't set up? So, it should 14 have been set up from the beginning. So, we 15 wouldn't have this problem where, okay, an 16 inmate is entitled to call his family member or 17 whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So, 18 that's besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm 19 not going to sit there and sugar coat it and 20 say, hey, I should have sat right there, but 21 even sitting right there, what can I heard him 22 say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever. 23 And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have 24 pulled him out and put him in this area, and 25 put it on speaker. EFTA00062121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 But once again, we're talking about 80 2 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you 3 know, it should be four officers, instead of 4 that. But it's two officers. So, there was a 5 lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going 6 around. I'm not putting that on nobody. This 7 is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not 8 speaking about anybody else. So, once I 9 realized a lot of stuff was going on, and 10 that's not just because of his death, it's 11 things that I know that should be happening. I 12 put those things in place at MCC because it 13 wasn't happening. 14 I did those. I'm the one who put a green 15 book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I 16 did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do 17 it. I just knew it was the right thing to do. 18 I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the 19 com shop, and told him, take the legal line 20 out. And it wasn't just because of Epstein. 21 It was because a lot of inmates were 22 manipulating staff to give them the legal line, 23 to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate 24 is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or 25 another inmate? And it wasn't monitored. So, EFTA00062122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 I saw that, and I'm the one who did that. 2 : Well, I'm glad you said 3 that, because that's - from my understanding 4 the reason why it's supposed to be monitored 5 and verified who they're talking about, is 6 because hits on other inmates -- 7 : That is correct. 8 : -- or being able to run 9 an organization from within the institution. 10 : That is correct. 11 : So, and that's why, 12 unfortunately, this becomes a little bit more 13 of a serious matter. 14 : And I get it. 15 : Okay. 16 : I have - once again - I have 17 no excuse. I get it. And maybe I was one of 18 those who fell into the thing, what MCC was 19 doing, but I still know better. 20 : Okay. 21 : Because I have 27 years in. 22 : And when you corrected 23 the problem, that was - it sounds like - after 24 Epstein. 25 : Of course. EFTA00062123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 : Okay. Do you know how 2 long after? 3 : What's that? What he, in 4 October, or -- 5 : August. 6 : -- August? 7 : Yeah. August. Augu.7- 8 10t is when. 9 : I'm going to say the 10 beginning - me - the beginning of 2020. 11 : Okay. 12 : Because at MCC, it takes, 13 it's not something you, like, you go to people, 14 and you say - and you know right from wrong - 15 and you go, hey, you know, I know everything is 16 a little salty now. People running around. I 17 know it's crazy. But you go to these people. 18 Hey, communication. Because that's who has a 19 door. Hey, we need to take these legal lines 20 out. Okay. I'm good with that. Let's get 21 with -. So, get with the associate warden, 22 hey, associate warden. And I'm putting this in 23 emails. I'm not just, you know, hey, we need 24 to get rid of this stuff. 25 : Right. EFTA00062124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 : Because it's bad for staff 2 down there. Okay. Get with this person. Get 3 with that person. Vice versa. It's just a lot 4 of back and forth. So, it took, you know, 5 you're trying to get this stuff done, and 6 they're acting like it's the hardest thing to 7 do. Communication staff is telling me, it 8 could happen like that. I could just snap a 9 wire, that legal line is gone. Come to find 10 out, when it was finally approved, that's all 11 it took. Just like that. 12 : And then, as far as, you 13 said, that it seems like it was kind of common 14 practice at the time, that, like, people were 15 just putting inmates on legal lines. Was that 16 happening a lot, then, around that time? 17 : All the time. 18 : All the time. 19 : All the time. 20 : So, was that Now, who 21 was Were you also one of the ones that was 22 constantly providing -? 23 : No. The only call I gave an 24 inmate was Epstein, during that time. If I 25 ever gave an inmate - once again - a call, EFTA00062125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 let's say to his mother, I would have to go 2 through the warden. Like, if you on phone 3 restriction, I would not. I would just be, 4 like, hey, warden. You know, they asking the 5 warden. She's the warden. They would sign a 6 cop out. She would say, , make sure 7 this inmate gets his phone call. She would 8 follow up, and say the next day, hey, Mr. 9 , did you give this inmate the phone 10 call? Yes, ma'am, I did. 11 : And when you're talking 12 about a female. Who is it that you are 13 speaking of? 14 : Warden 15 : Okay. 16 : The warden. 17 : Like, but at that time, 18 was it , right? 19 -: was, at the time, 20 well, this is -. never told me to give 21 an inmate -- 22 : Okay. 23 a phone. 24 : So, you're talking after 25 EFTA00062126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE I 1 : That is correct. 2 : Okay. 3 : Because inmates would ask 4 her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again, 5 inmates can ask for anything you want. If 6 that's just, like, if your visit has been taken 7 for a year. They have the right to ask for a 8 special visit. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : The special visit is 11 approved by who? The warden. Typically, the 12 warden just usually don't. They have to be 13 really an emergency, somebody is dying, or 14 something. But if you've been sanctioned, and 15 if you read the policy, the only person who 16 really can do that is the regional DHO, but 17 under, of course, the warden, because that's 18 her jail, or that's his jail, or whoever the 19 warden is. They can do it. But they would 20 have to - you would have to put it in the memo 21 form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day. 22 So, special visits never happen, but -- 23 : Sure. 24 : -- the phone calls did. 25 : So, in the phone calls, EFTA00062127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 though, it sounds like they were happening, not 2 only prior to Epstein, but also following 3 Epstein's discovery on August 9th. 4 : Mm-hmm. 5 : So, staff members were -. 6 And that's in the SHU, as well? 7 : That's the only way On 8 the outside, we never did it on that. We don't 9 have to do it on the outside. This was mainly 10 inmates in SHU. These are all inmates in SHU. 11 : Oh, so, you're speaking 12 specifically to the SHU, and the G-tier shower? 13 : No. Remember. They had the 14 legal line. I put him in the G-tier because 15 the whole phone couldn't reach. 16 : Okay. 17 : So, I did that as a security 18 breach of this inmate can't do nothing to 19 himself, or whoever. I knew who he was. But 20 as far as on the tiers, they had legal lines on 21 every tier. Between every cell. So, if I had 22 went to -. I can go downstairs, plug this 23 phone in, and give it to an inmate. 24 : And that's what they were 25 doing? EFTA00062128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5. 1 : Yup. 2 : So, they were just 3 plugging it in -- 4 : Everybody was doing it. 5 : -- okay. So, you chose 6 to put him in the G-tier shower. Other staff 7 members are just giving it to him on any legal 8 line? And that's for other inmates. 9 : It was constant. And it was 10 nothing I mean, so, I requested that 11 because it was putting staff in a bind. My 12 thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying, 13 like, these are young staff. You know, some 14 staff got, you know, once you get your year, 15 you can go to SHU. They don't know no better. 16 Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it 17 in the social line. Right? And let's say you 18 got a staff that's down there, and the inmate 19 go, hold that, my phone's not working. It says 20 social and legal. 21 So, you know the difference. And then, he 22 takes it out of social and plug it. So, it 23 might not be typically that staff member. It 24 could be another staff member taking it out and 25 putting it there. So, that's why I said, okay, EFTA00062129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 let's get rid of it. What they did was, they 2 did a quick fix. They put tape around it. 3 Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What's 4 putting tape around it? Anybody could take off 5 the tape. 6 : Right. 7 : And it was happening. So, 8 tape is coming off. Then they tried to put 9 puddy in it. That didn't work. So, 10 eventually, they did exactly what I asked them 11 to do. There was only one line you could plug 12 in. And that was your phone call. That's it. 13 All legal lines was put in the back of the 14 visit room, where you have to have a staff 15 member present at that time. 16 : In the SHU visiting room? 17 : Yes. And that -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- the only person that will 20 be is that will be unit team. 21 : Okay. And how did you 22 know that the staff members were providing 23 inmates with these calls? 24 : Let's say I'm doing my 25 rounds. I'm doing my unit manager rounds. All EFTA00062130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 right? I'm doing my unit manager rounds. I'm 2 doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the 3 difference between the cord, and you go, what's 4 this guy on right here? Oh, he's on a social 5 call. No, he's not on a social call. He's on 6 the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, I 7 would go over there, and of course, I catch 8 problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I 9 don't have no minutes. You don't have no 10 minutes. You shouldn't -. You're on phone 11 restriction. It's a lot. Now, it becomes a 12 problem where, guess what? The inmate acts 13 out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many 14 phones we've replaced in there? Listen. It 15 was a lot. 16 : Okay. 17 : Like I said, me personally, 18 I would never make an excuse for myself. You 19 know? Regardless of the fact, the years that I 20 have in, I should have did it the right way. 21 There is no way for me, myself, to fall into 22 MCC's trap, which I did. And it caused me to 23 be right here today. So, I would never make an 24 excuse for that. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062131 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I just want to clarify. 2 Based on the question I asked, based on your 3 conversation with Epstein, he said that he 4 requested pack and pin from and 5 multiple times, but it was just never set up. 6 : That is correct. 7 : Okay. 8 : Yeah. And on that note, 9 you had mentioned I don't think 10 was a counselor at that time. 11 : And that's what I'm saying. 12 He probably was a lieutenant. 13 : Oh, yeah. 14 : And then, went to Arai 15 that's what I said. It's been so long. 1 16 don't know who. But I know she had other 17 people under her. I know it was She did 18 have a case manager, , but she left. 19 : Okay. 20 : At that time. So, she's no 21 longer there. 22 : Okay. And just to touch 23 on, this is kind of off the topic, but you 24 mentioned unit manager rounds. What is that? 25 Is that like a lieutenant round? EFTA00062132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 : No. So, what we do is, unit 2 team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We 3 go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't 4 know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that 5 we sign in. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : You go in. You sign in. 8 Put the time you in. And then, whenever you 9 come out. So, we would go there, and we would 10 run a roster with all of our inmates. 11 11 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom. 12 Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your 13 unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need? 14 They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I 15 want a phone call. Okay. You on phone 16 restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next 17 validation date? And a lot of those guys were 18 legit. Oh, by validation. 19 So, they can really make a phone call. 20 So, I don't know why they wasn't getting phone 21 calls. But then, I found out a lot, they 22 didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere 23 I've been, it's a SHU schedule. Monday, this 24 range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can 25 get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay, EFTA00062133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 Mondays, we don't use the phone. It's just us 2 going to use the phone. And that should have 3 been set up that way. 4 Once again, I set that up. I did. I 5 didn't have to. But I did it because I thought 6 it was just right for the inmates, and for the 7 staff. This way, they're not, okay, they're 8 giving this inmate a phone call today. 9 Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next 10 day. And this becomes where the inmates are 11 actually running the phones the way they want 12 to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should 13 be giving this range on Monday, and that should 14 be every Monday. 15 If this dude is validated, and he can get 16 a phone call, he should get a phone call. 17 Leave it on that range, put it in the social 18 line, he can only make - at that time - you can 19 only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would 20 cut off no matter what. So, you can go down 21 there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you 22 knew that the phone call was over. You knew it 23 was over. It was done. Take it, give it to 24 the next person. 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00062134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 : So, it was a lot that MCC 2 had backwards. They just came up with the 3 phones where you wheel the real phones, the way 4 it's supposed to be. The actual phone that 5 they have on the phone, but they have it on a 6 stand. You wheel it over there. You open the 7 slot. You leave the slot open. The inmate 8 down, and the only thing he can have is that. 9 We had the old phones where you're giving an 10 inmate the whole phone, put the wire in the 11 thing, and locks the slot. Now, the inmate has 12 a phone. 13 : So, with the unit team 14 round, do you go around to each one of the 15 inmates -- 16 : Each cell. And I look for 17 my inmates. And let's say -- 18 : -- oh, so, you only have 19 certain inmates that you're going to? 20 : -- right. Let's say I had 21 12 - no, but I'm doing rounds in an entire 22 tier, because what if another inmate from 23 says, hey, I need a BP-8. I'm still writing 24 that down. And I will email later and 25 say - because we do the same thing here - we EFTA00062135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 email every unit team, hey, this inmate had an 2 issue, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would 3 address it whenever they do their SHU rounds. 4 So, our job is to go to every cell. Not just 5 our inmates. But I ran a roster so I can know 6 who my inmates is, but our job as a unit team 7 go to every cell. 8 : So -- 9 : Not just our inmates. 10 : -- two questions on that. 11 Is a lieutenant round supposed to be done the 12 same way, where they're going to every cell? 13 : A lieutenant round on each 14 shift is the same way, where they're supposed 15 to go to every cell. Look in the window. And 16 we And now, this, when we was doing, take 17 your streams now, do this, if an inmate is not 18 moving -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- hit the light. Make sure 21 inmates living and breathing. Yes. That's a 22 lieutenants' round. 23 : So, a lieutenant round 24 does actually consist of going to every cell -- 25 : Every cell. EFTA00062136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 : -- not just checking in 2 with the -- 3 : No. 4 : -- staff members to see 5 if they're doing it. 6 : That's the last thing. 7 That's the last thing they do. Our job, even 8 when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing 9 unit. In the housing unit, you don't have to 10 go every cell in the housing unit because it's 11 not the SHU. They're out. But you should go 12 to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and 13 you check, and you're making sure. How you 14 know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check 15 and you looking at, you looking into the cell. 16 How you know an inmate don't have his window 17 covered? Why you got your window covered? 18 Open the door. So, yes. But in SHU, it's 19 every cell. 20 : Okay. So, the lieutenant 21 does a round. Has to check every cell. 22 : The same thing as unit team. 23 : All right. And then 24 that's every shift needed to do that, too. 25 Correct? EFTA00062137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 : Day watch, evening watch, 2 and morning watch. 3 : Is that unit team, as 4 well? 5 : Unit team has to do it -. A 6 unit team has to do rounds once a day. 7 : Once every 24 hours. 8 : Right. 9 : Okay. 10 : But remember, that's the 11 unit team. So, that means it wasn't just me. 12 It was me. . And (Phonetic Sp. 13 *00:54:21). 14 : Okay. 15 : And then -. 16 : So, each one of them has 17 to do it? 18 : That is correct. 19 : Okay. 20 : Until they changed our 21 They just changed our unit manager's manual 22 that says a unit team. Which means, now, I 23 could do rounds for everybody. I can do rounds 24 for . I could do rounds for . And 25 just have to send them the information here. EFTA00062138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 So, I can do rounds for them. That's in the 2 new unit manager's manual. 3 : Now, aside from phone 4 calls, what is a unit team member, or manager, 5 checking in with the inmates on? What is the, 6 like, what is the goal of checking in with the 7 inmates? 8 : We're doing is reports. So, 9 disciplinary action. So, we go there. An 10 inmate has -. That's why he's in SHU. 11 Disciplinary action. So, we do incident 12 reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot 13 of inmates from visiting can't set up their 14 visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So, 15 they would have to fill out a form, who they 16 want. And then, we take that form and send it 17 to trust fund, who they would then add those 18 names to the visiting list. But they would 19 have to already be in the inmates' central 20 file, if it's on those. So, we do visiting, 21 incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate 22 remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And 23 listen to their problems. So, that's why we 24 had to go to SHU every day. 25 : Now, did you have EFTA00062139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 anything to do with, like, cellmates? 2 : No. The only time we would 3 get involved with cellmate is when it was just, 4 like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So, 5 if the psychologist says, this person needs a 6 cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an 7 inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an 8 inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know 9 four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would 10 be, like, this is a good fit for him. 11 If this guy is a sex offender, and he's 12 not a sex offender predator, he's just a sex 13 offender. And he shouldn't be with nobody who 14 is a predator. He can be with another sex 15 offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who 16 is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like, 17 you know what? I know him. He used to be in 18 my unit. So, I would give them, like, the 19 psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell 20 with this inmate. 21 So, yes, we would have input, as far as 22 that, because we know the inmates. The unit 23 team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like, 24 the captain, for him to know an inmate, even 25 though he's doing his rounds, he don't know the EFTA00062140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 inmate more than unit team. So, yes, we would 2 have input to psychology, and we did have input 3 of who could go in with Epstein. We did have 4 input. 5 : Oh, you did? Did you, 6 yourself, have input? 7 : No. That was then. 8 . Okay. 9 : Yeah. 10 : But you're the one who 11 brought him back that day. So, at that time, 12 around 7:00 p.m., did you notice that his 13 cellmate was not there? 14 : I knew his cellmate was in 15 court first thing in the morning. And 16 everybody did. 17 : Well, that's the 18 interesting thing, because he wasn't in court. 19 He was transferred. 20 : Right. But originally, his 21 cellmate would do the same thing, go to court, 22 whatever. But remember, I don't do the SENTRY 23 transactions. 24 : Okay. 25 : So, we was told he went to EFTA00062141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 court. Right? So -- 2 : Who told everybody that? 3 Because in the court list, it said WAS, and it 4 was transferred to GO. 5 : WAB is court. 6 : WAB is With All 7 Belongings. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Court is court. 10 : Right. But they Here, 11 they call - and once again, this is my first 12 high rise, first pre-trial -- 13 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 14 : -- when they say an inmate 15 is WAB, this is me. I've never been to a high- 16 rise. So, I'm thinking, okay, he goes to 17 court, and then he gets transferred. That's 18 me. And that's my honest truth. Like, I don't 19 know what WA -. I don't know what that means. 20 So, people would say, oh, his cellee is out in 21 court. I mean, his cellee is out in court. 22 Okay. That doesn't mean, because his cellee is 23 out in court, he still needs a cellmate. 24 : Wow. 25 : And the thing -- EFTA00062142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : That's - it could be 2 still out at court, though, at 7:00. 3 : Okay. Then here's the 4 thing. Okay. Let's say your inmate is out in 5 court. Okay? And typically, the right way. 6 And I will say this about MCC. How they was 7 doing this. Now, we didn't have that -. We 8 have the holding cells now. We didn't have 9 them before. They just put them there. I 10 guess after this incident. But you would then 11 - me personally - I would then put that inmate, 12 and that inmate was in a good area, with 13 officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put 14 that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that 15 cell. But I would - me personally - I would 16 probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute 17 round, and that's just me, until his cellmate 18 get there. 19 : So, who was it that 20 actually put Epstein in his cell? 21 : I wasn't there. 22 : Oh, so, when you came 23 back from 7:00, at 7:00 p.m. with him -- 24 : Hmm. 25 : -- you weren't there when EFTA00062143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he was actually placed in the cell? 2 : No. I wasn't there. 3 : All right. So, did you 4 even know that the cellmate wasn't in there, 5 then? You knew - you said - you knew he was at 6 court. But, like, you said everybody knew. 7 : At 7:00, he didn't have a 8 cellmate. I knew his cellmate was not there. 9 I knew that. 10 : So, and you knew he 11 wasn't coming back at that point? 12 : I didn't know. 13 : Oh. 14 : I didn't know. I honestly 15 didn't know. 16 : Okay. 17 : I just know that he wasn't 18 there. And my thing is, I thought he was in 19 court. And I know dudes can come back 8:00, 20 9:00 at night. So, that was my thing. But at 21 the same time, I knew he still should have had 22 a cellmate. 23 : Right. 24 : It don't matter. Let's say 25 you don't have a cellmate. Once again, if your EFTA00062144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 celimate is in court, it's just up here, just 2 like I'm not taking excuses for what I did. 3 You know he's suspect. Everybody knows that. 4 Okay. So, if you're going to put him there, 5 there's a couple of ways you can do it. I will 6 put him there and say, okay, guess what? We're 7 doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back 8 from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the 9 best thing going, going right now. That I've 10 seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him 11 in there. 12 : Right. 13 : Leave him in R&D. 14 : So, was it a conversation 15 at all when you came back with, okay, where is 16 his cellmate? 17 : I didn't. I don't typically 18 ask for a celimate. I basically -. The only 19 thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to 20 have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with 21 a cellmate. 22 : No, no, no. I mean, on 23 that 7:00 p.m., on August 9th, 2019 -- 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- when you came back. EFTA00062145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 Was that a conversation within the SHU, with 2 , Noel. Was it 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 : Okay. Was that a 10 conversation that was had at all? 11 : I don't - me. It's been too 12 long - I don't recall. But I know for a fact 13 that an inmate should have a cellmate, but like 14 I said, if he's to in court -. 15 : But that wasn't your 16 purview, though? Or was that? 17 : I'm not sure. 18 : Okay. 19 : I can't recall. 20 : So, as far as going back, 21 I thought you said everybody knew he was at 22 court. So, our understanding, through talking 23 with R&D, and other lieutenants and officers, 24 was you get the court list, the court 25 production list, it will say, like, you know, -: : : : Oh, Yeah. -- yeah. . No. was the -- EFTA00062146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE r i 1 Reyes, court -- 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- that means he went to 4 court, and he's coming back. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : If it says Reyes, WAB, 7 that means you know he's leaving the 8 institution. He's not coming back. 9 : Well, who gets that court 10 list? 11 : The SHU staff members. 12 The lieutenants. Sorry. I'm just -- 13 : The SHU don't get it. 14 : -- well, SHU gets it 15 because they have to produce those individuals. 16 So, they get it so that they know who to 17 produce. 18 : So, which court list are you 19 talking about? The one that's created by R&D, 20 or the list that R&D receives? 21 : So, R&D creates one, and 22 provides it to the housing units so that they 23 can produce their inmates. 24 : Okay. But they put it on 25 the computer. It's not -. It's something. EFTA00062147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 It's something that they would not print. 2 : Now, internal has a 3 printed copy, and they go -- 4 : That is correct. 5 : -- right, and they 6 provide it to the housing units. 7 : For court. Yes. That is 8 correct. 9 : Well, for WAB and court. 10 : That is correct. 11 : All right. 12 : Yes. They have that in the 13 morning. Yes. 14 : So, if in this instance, 15 Reyes was on there, but it was listed as WAS -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- not court, there are 18 19 : Right. 20 : -- individuals that are 21 listed as court, but he was listed as WAB. 22 : That is correct. 23 : So, what you're saying is 24 that, what was your understanding of the WAB? 25 : Court. Because - and the EFTA00062148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 reason why - is because I didn't see the list. 2 : Okay. 3 : Right? So, we're hearing, 4 you just mentioned just now, that he was WAB. 5 We're hearing, oh, his cellee is in court. So, 6 that's all I remember, all day, because the 7 main thing was him coming back, his cellmate 8 coming back. 9 : And that was spoken 10 about? 11 : Yeah. 12 : That he was in court? 13 : Yeah. 14 : And coming back? 15 : Because had not -. Let's 16 say I come in at 11:00 to 7:00, right, I'm the 17 duty officer. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And let's say I know he's 20 down there talking to his attorney, and I knew 21 I had actual - and regardless of the fact, now, 22 this, I won't do - if I know an inmate needs a 23 cellmate, and his cellmate didn't go to court, 24 I, as the duty officer, would ensure that he 25 move with somebody. I promise you that. EFTA00062149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 That's just -. I do it right now. I do it 2 now. When I have an inmate right now, in our 3 suicide watch. 4 (Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he 5 comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I 6 would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee. 7 If he don't find a cellee, and then I'm 8 interviewing that cellee, I need to find out 9 what kind of cellmate he's putting in there 10 with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy 11 -. But I've done it. And that's something I 12 will never go against, where if I know an 13 inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to 14 make sure he has a cellmate. 15 : So, on this note, whereas 16 Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his 17 cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was, 18 early in the morning, you know, leaves the 19 institution, listed on the court production 20 list as WAB. In your unit manager experience, 21 who was responsible for saying, he's WAB, he's 22 not going to court, he's WAS, he's transferring 23 from here, and there is emails from the U.S. 24 Marshal Service that clearly show, the day 25 before, that he is transferring to GO. EFTA00062150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Whose ultimately 3 responsibility was that, at that point? 4 : R&D, and this is, R&D is 5 responsible for saying, okay, he's WAS, he's 6 transferring. Once again, I never knew what 7 WAS is. I don't. This is my - like I said - 8 this is my first high rise. 9 : Okay. 10 : So, he goes out or whatever. 11 It's R&D's responsibility to say, hey, this guy 12 is WAB. He's not coming back. He getting 13 transferred or whatever. Also, too, if that 14 was my inmate. So, I'm not sure even 15 received something saying that he don't have a 16 celimate. So, at that time, if did 17 receive something, because they would have sent 18 it to me if he was my inmate. been there 19 forever. She knows. She knows. She's been 20 the unit manager. She's been the case manager 21 there. So, she would know, okay, you don't got 22 no cellmate. She could have got with a 23 psychologist and said, hey, you know, Epstein's 24 celimate left at 9:00 in the morning, or 8:00 25 in the morning. EFTA00062151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So, would it be -- 2 : He needs a cellmate. 3 : -- so, would it have been 4 actual responsibility, it seems like? 5 : It would have been two 6 responsibilities. R&D first, and then, if they 7 sent it to yes, to say to 8 psychologist, hey, his cellmate left. He needs 9 a cellee. Then once we tell psychology, it is 10 then psychology's responsibility to go to the 11 captain and say, hey, this guy needs a 12 cellmate. 13 : Okay. So, it wasn't, 14 like, the SHU staff members, or the operations 15 lieutenant, it was actually the unit manager 16 who was responsible for that individual? 17 : It goes from R&D, who they 18 Let's say they send the list, and the 19 lieutenant gets it, too. 20 : Do you know who -. 21 Sorry. is Epstein's guy. Who was Reyes' 22 guy? 23 : He had to be because 24 he wasn't mine. I know who Reyes is, but he 25 wasn't mine. EFTA00062152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : And where is 2 do you know? 3 : She is - she's working from 4 the house - but she does here, right here. 5 What's this -? MCC. The CCM office. 6 : What is that? 7 : It's this office. That's. 8 Okay, you know -- 9 : Yeah, right here -- 10 where this building 11 -- at the MDC? 12 yeah. The CCM office is 13 on the east building. 14 : Oh, the one next to the Third 15 Avenue? 16 : Yeah. 17 : Okay. 18 : So -- 19 : Well, what's her -? 20 : -- but she works from home. 21 : What is her position now? 22 : CCM. I think she's -. I 23 think she's I want to -. She's an 11. So, 24 she took a bus down from -- 25 : And what are you, a 12? EFTA00062153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 : -- yeah. We were both 12s. 2 and she saw an opportunity had opened because 3 she just lost her father. Her mother is sick. 4 So, she basically -. So, she works -. She 5 works out of home. I think she has to report 6 there once a week, or once a month. But yeah, 7 she works out of home. 8 : Right. 9 : But she still works for the 10 BOP. 11 : So, your unit team 12 experience tells you that the actual way it 13 should have worked, and the ideal circumstance, 14 was R&D should have told her, she should have 15 told the captain. 16 : That is correct. Or, and it 17 could have been, let's say, everybody gets this 18 list. I know I will get it. So, 19 captain. So, let's say the captain, or the 20 lieutenant's office get it. The lieutenant's 21 office, they get it because they know all the 22 transfers. They know who is leaving. They 23 could have known, hey, this guy is leaving. 24 They could have notified psychology. Anyone of 25 us has supervisors, who had that list, should EFTA00062154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 have notified psychology in the morning. It 2 could have been -. 3 : Is there one group that 4 should have, though, versus could have? 5 Because if R&D is giving that list to 6 everybody, is there one, is there one group, 7 either unit team, or ops lieutenant -- 8 : The person I'm going to put, 9 that if they had a SHU lieutenant, it's going 10 to be the SHU lieutenant. 11 : Right. 12 : Because the SHU lieutenant, 13 like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a 14 lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU 15 lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this 16 list, you know, this guy leaving. He don't got 17 no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I 18 already know, Epstein is in court, while he's 19 downstairs, right? He probably be down there 20 until about, let's say 7:00, 8:00. Before he 21 come up here, he have a cellmate. That's 22 automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU 23 lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn't 24 there, it's the operations lieutenant. Who 25 would then notify the captain and psychology, EFTA00062155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which 2 then, if they would have did it early enough, 3 when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have 4 went back in that cell, and he would have had a 5 cellmate. 6 : Absolutely. So, the 7 actual way it should have worked is, the SHU 8 lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the 9 captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the 10 captain. 11 : That is correct. It's never 12 our responsibility. Because that inmate, he 13 belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain. 14 SHU is the captain. That's the captain's baby. 15 If you got a SHU lieutenant, it's the SHU 16 lieutenants. That's mines. So, I know all my 17 inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the 18 cellmate left. Okay. Let's get the cellmate 19 for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, Reyes 20 left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay. 21 Let's make sure we don't pick somebody like 22 Tartaglione, or somebody else who's going to, 23 you know what I mean? Get accused of doing 24 something. Okay. We'll pick a cellmate. 25 : So, two things off that. EFTA00062156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 One, so, when you previously said that it 2 should have been R&D to to the 3 captain, are you kind of re-thinking that? 4 : R&D, at least to the SHU 5 lieutenant. Everything going to be SHU 6 lieutenant or captain. 7 : And in this case, the SHU 8 lieutenant is not there. 9 : Operations. 10 : So, you're saying R&D 11 should have told operations? 12 : I'm quite sure they did. 13 Remember, everything goes to operations because 14 15 : Well, yeah, yeah, they 16 got the list. So, all -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- these people get 19 lists. 20 : Right. 21 : So, where does the unit - 22 ? So, are you thinking the unit team actually 23 doesn't fall into that notification -- 24 : We don't. 25 : -- versus not? EFTA00062157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 : We don't. But let's say, if 2 - and the reason why I say we don't, but we 3 still do - let's say, if I knew it was my 4 inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and 5 then, I'm going to give you an example. All 6 these guys that's come in over here, right? 7 get the list in the morning. They come here 8 every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they're 9 going into quarantine unit. So, the process 10 here, I had to find out the process when I got 11 here. I get the list. 12 (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is 13 over there, she does all the bed assignments. 14 So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed 15 assignments, because technically, they are my 16 inmates, I do their assignments. So, long 17 story short, she says to us, she does it 18 because she only have 20 inmates. She's been 19 doing since she's been here. Okay. So, that's 20 something less I have to do. But I still have 21 to make sure those inmates, because they come 22 into my unit, all the cells are working. All 23 the lights are working in the cell. 24 Everything. 25 So, that's my responsibility. That is my EFTA00062158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 responsibility. That is my unit. It's still 2 can fall on the unit team, but is it our 3 responsibility? I would say no, because SHU 4 belongs to the SHU lieutenant. Really, the 5 captain, who belongs to the SHU lieutenant, 6 then operations. 7 : SO -- 8 : That's how it really goes. 9 : -- do you think, though, 10 that has any responsibility for notifying 11 that Reyes left, and knowing that Reyes was 12 Epstein's -? 13 : I wouldn't put it on - and 14 I'm not just saying this because even if it was 15 me - that's not my responsibility. Like, it's 16 not onto me, because that inmate is in SHU. If 17 he's in my unit, yes. Like, we do have inmates 18 in their units who can't be by themselves, too. 19 : Okay. 20 : That's my responsibility. 21 He's in SHU. That's the captain's 22 responsibility. 23 : Okay. And then, the 24 second follow up to that, was you mentioned 25 Tartaglione, and the things that, you know, EFTA00062159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 were being talked about. What is your 2 understanding of what happened with Epstein and 3 Tartaglione? 4 : The only thing I remember is 5 - and this is when I first met Tartaglione. 6 didn't know anything about him. I didn't know 7 his background. Anything. It was just 8 alleged, and this is something that I heard, 9 that he choked Epstein out. That's the only 10 thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS 11 investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and 12 that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit, 13 like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever. 14 He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was 15 trying to get to me, caught up, I don't get 16 into that. I was, like, whatever. He was 17 just, like, no, I never did that. And you 18 think I would do something like that? And I'm 19 working on my case? All right. No problem. 20 Never, ever talked about them again. 21 : So -- 22 : That was it. 23 did you ever kind of 24 reconcile that, that you heard, maybe, 25 Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus, EFTA00062160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 did you also hear that Epstein tried to commit 2 suicide? 3 : The only thing I heard, and 4 like I said, was the Tartaglione thing, because 5 I knew it was an investigation. And I knew 6 Because my question was, well, why did this guy 7 move out the cell? That's when I heard it 8 through staff. Oh, yeah. He moved out the 9 cell because they were saying Tartaglione 10 assaulted him. And then, I knew because they 11 had FBI agents called in, and interviewed 12 Tartaglione. So, I knew that. 13 : Okay. 14 : Like, that he was 15 interviewed. 16 : Right. And did you know, 17 though -- 18 : That he tried to -- 19 : -- that Epstein was 20 commit suicide? 21 : -- placed on suicide 22 watch? 23 : Yes. 24 : So, was it your 25 understanding that he attempted to commit EFTA00062161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 suicide, or that his cellmate tried to harm 2 him? 3 : The only thing I know is 4 that he was placed on suicide watch. Remember, 5 he wasn't my inmate. So, that's the only thing 6 I remember about that incident. 7 : And whose inmate was he? 8 9 : So, that was also a 10 inmate. 11 : Who you talking about? 12 : Tartaglione. 13 : Tartaglione. Yeah. At that 14 time, he was inmate. And then, he 15 became my inmate. 16 : Okay. So -- 17 : Yeah. 18 at the time, though -- 19 -: and 20 Epstein, Reyes, and 21 Tartaglione were all inmates? 22 : That is correct. 23 : Okay. I got nothing 24 else. 25 : I just wanted to clarify. EFTA00062162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Yeah. : You mentioned that - going 3 back to this phone call - you mentioned the 4 captain said to monitor and log the calls. But 5 there was no books. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : There was no book to keep the 8 log. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : What exactly did the captain 11 mean when he said monitor and log, when there 12 was no book to write the log in? What do you 13 think he meant by that? 14 : Log it in the book, that 15 when there is no book. 16 : So, was there supposed to 17 be a book? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. So, he -- 20 : And once again, I made that 21 book. I'm the one There wasn't no books. 22 I made all those books that's there today. I 23 made those books. 24 : After the Epstein incident? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : And at that point, did the 2 captain know that there was no books? 3 : He's the captain. So, I'm 4 going to say yes. 5 : Okay. 6 : But do you remember him 7 saying monitor and log it? 8 : I kind of remember it. 9 Like, as you guys saying it - remember, it 10 happened so long - but yes, what I know was, 11 mean, I didn't know there was no book at the 12 time until I went up to SHU and didn't see no 13 book. Because it would have been logged. 14 : And you had to practice that, 15 if you gave a legal call, you would actually 16 log it on? 17 : And that's the reason why I 18 actually made the -. I actually made the book 19 up. And then, today, there is a book in there 20 for legal calls and social calls. Today. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : If you go up there now. 23 : That's not shutting off. 24 Sorry about that. 25 : Yeah. 98 EFTA00062164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. I was going to move on. 3 There was another -- 4 : Oh, please. 5 : -- so, then, I'm going to - 6 well passed it, too, a portion. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : "After OCME (Phonetic Sp. 9 *01:14:44)," and I think that stands for the 10 Office of Chief Medical Examiner, "Departed 11 with Epstein's body, returned to MCC, 12 and wrote a memo containing a timeline of 13 events, and a recap of the previous nights' 14 phone call." Now, I have a copy of the memo 15 here. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : At least, this is the copy 18 had. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : I'm going to read this. The 21 memorandum for file, Metropolitan Correctional 22 Center, August 10th, 2019. From 23 That's you? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : Unit manager. Subject: EFTA00062165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054. 2 "This memorandum is in regards of inmate 3 Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On 4 August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein, 5 concerning him making a call to his family. 6 told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility 7 around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to 8 shorten his attorney visitation to make his 9 social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to 10 Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed 11 inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and 12 escorted the phone for him to make the social 13 call. 14 I placed the phone in the first jack on 15 the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained 16 to me that he didn't have his phone set up to 17 use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate 18 Epstein who he was calling. He stated his 19 mother. I remember dialing the number starting 20 with (347), but the number was not notated." 21 It says "notated." I'm guessing it says not. 22 You meant not notated? 23 : And it actually was, but 24 when I wrote the number down, you know how you 25 write it down on a piece of paper and put it in EFTA00062166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 your pocket, well, I couldn't find it. So, 2 there was no number. But I remember, vaguely, 3 what the number started with, because I 4 actually wrote it down, and I was going to - 5 that next day - ask the captain why we don't 6 have a logbook, and here's the numbers that he 7 actually called her. So. 8 : "Inmate Epstein began talking 9 on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate 10 Epstein's call after 15 minutes. They 11 complied." Is that the memo you wrote? 12 : That is the memo I wrote. 13 : Okay. Just, anything we show 14 you, which would be, in this case, the memo, 15 just initial it, and put today's date on it. 16 Today is September 21st. Here's a pen. 17 : Mm-hmm. The time? 18 : You don't need the time. 19 Just the date and the initial. That's fine. 20 Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So 21 bear with me. " provided this to AW 22 , who is also new to the MCC. Captain"... 23 (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed 24 , but responded that he couldn't 25 talk about the situation. The only colleague EFTA00062167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 whose phone number has is AW 2 because he had to use his personal phone to 3 email her his timeline of events, and pictures 4 of Epstein's body, prior to its transport by 5 OCME." Now, you said you - this states that 6 you used your personal phone to email pictures 7 of Epstein's body. Why did you use your 8 personal phone to take Epstein's -? 9 : For one, R&D is supposed to 10 come out there. R&D is supposed to come out 11 there and fingerprint them. They came out 12 there. They fingerprinted and that was it. 13 Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they 14 want to know when we're leaving, because 15 sent me out there. So, I had to 16 stay with the body until the actual coroner 17 came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, 18 yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, 19 I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. 20 This is his body. 21 Where I had proof that the inmate was 22 deceased, and he wasn't walking off somewhere 23 else. Because all the speculation now and in 24 the news that he's not dead. So, I did that. 25 Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to EFTA00062168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 from my phone. This is, boom, boom, 2 boom. I left the hospital at this time, 3 arrived back at the institution at this time. 4 This is when they took his body and placed it 5 in here. This is a lot. This is where they 6 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to 7 leave. 8 : Were you instructed by 9 o take pictures? 10 : I'm trying to think. It's 11 been so long. I could have. But I know I had 12 a reason why I took them. 13 : And it was practice for 14 somebody to take pictures like that? 15 : I would have did it for 16 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is 17 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the 18 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we 19 have a camera from the institution. 20 : Was there a -- 21 : You see what I'm saying? 22 : -- was there a camera this 23 time? Was there a camera this time? 24 : No. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : But it - once again - they 2 brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a 3 camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave 4 it with us. I was coming back to the 5 institution. Because they have a - each R&D 6 has a briefcase, and in that brief case is a 7 camera, everything that you're supposed to 8 fingerprint an inmate on, and all that stuff. 9 And they have it for a reason, for inmates that 10 die. So, they could have left that and said, 11 hey, , when you guys leave, you got to 12 bring it back anyway, I'm coming back to the 13 institution. I'm going to leave this briefcase 14 with you. I would have, then, took the 15 pictures on that. But they didn't. 16 : So, they left with the 17 camera? 18 : They left with everything. 19 : And the phone number that you 20 texted to A , was that her 21 personal or -? 22 : That (804), if I'm correct, 23 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP 24 cell number. I don't know if it was (804). 25 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was EFTA00062170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 two numbers. But I knew I only had 2 one number, and I think, if it was (804), 3 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone. 4 : Okay. And I'm going to keep 5 reading. 6 : So, you texted her, not 7 emailed her. Correct? 8 : No. But I did text her. 9 But the pictures went to her phone. 10 : Her phone. So, texted 11 her -- 12 : Yeah. 13 : -- not email, because 14 doesn't it say email in there? 15 : He said he emailed her his 16 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein's 17 body, prior to its transport by OCME. 18 : Right. 19 : So, did you email it to her, 20 or -? 21 : It was email. Yeah. It was 22 text. 23 : So, you texted the pictures, 24 and emailed her -- 25 : That is correct. EFTA00062171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 : -- the timeline of events? 2 "After sending these 3 pictures, deleted them from his phone. 4 didn't speak, text, or email with 5 anyone else except his wife, who also works at 6 the MCC, in the food services section." Did 7 you forward those pictures to anybody else? 8 : No. 9 : Did you tell anyone that you 10 had those pictures? 11 : No. 12 : Or share them anywhere? 13 : No. 14 : Okay. 15 : And you don't have them? 16 And you deleted them -- 17 : No. 18 : -- those photos. 19 : You're free to look. 20 : No, no, no. No. That's 21 fine. 22 : No, I'm just saying. 23 : Yeah. 24 : I mean, I'm not -. Listen. 25 Trust me. EFTA00062172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 : No, no. We're just going 2 to say -- 3 : I want to get them -- 4 : -- if you have them, can 5 you send them to us? 6 : -- no. No. I am not -. 7 Listen. No. I deleted them that day. 8 : That's all I had in terms of 9 questions. Do you have anything? 10 : Yeah. So, speaking of, 11 like, pictures of the That was the 12 hospital. Correct? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Do you know if anyone was 15 there filming at the hospital? 16 : Remember, there were so many 17 people. I can't recall because my biggest 18 thing was - with those officers - was to guard 19 that body. Now, do I believe that people was 20 there? There was people there. 21 : No, I mean, like, was 22 that, like, you know how, like, if there is a, 23 you know, some kind of a use of force that 24 you've got to use against your institution 25 film, was someone -- EFTA00062173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No, no, no. 2 : -- (Indiscernible 3 *01:21:54). 4 : From us? 5 : Yeah, yeah. 6 : No. 7 : So, no one was 8 : No. 9 : -- filming from the BOP? 10 : No. 11 : Okay. 12 : There was people from the 13 outside, though. I know that for a fact. 14 : From where? 15 : From the outside. 16 : Outside. Okay. 17 : Yeah. 18 : Do you know if Epstein 19 was deceased prior to leaving the MCC? 20 : I wasn't there. I was the 21 duty officer. I was called by 22 And the only thing told me was, 23 hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She 24 said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. 25 was, like, okay. When I got there, he was 108 EFTA00062174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 already at the hospital. He was deceased then. 2 So, she told me to report to the hospital, and 3 that's when I reported, and I noticed his 4 deceased body. 5 : Do you know if, is there 6 any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, 7 that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the 8 MCC, or at the BOP facility? 9 : That. There's not a policy. 10 They technically says it, but this, this rule 11 was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule. 12 When I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at 13 Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. 14 The policy states it's not us. Our medical 15 people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, 16 let's say if an inmate, (Indiscernible 17 *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a 18 licensed, practiced. They can announce that 19 person dead - and I've seen it all the time - 20 at the jail. It's just common for them to say, 21 oh, he didn't die here. They always say that. 22 : Do you -- 23 : But -. 24 : -- do you believe, from 25 what you know now, two years later, that he was EFTA00062175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 deceased while he was here, at the MCC? 2 : I believe it. 3 : Okay. 4 : I definitely believe it. 5 : So, he wasn't still alive 6 when he left? 7 : No. 8 : Okay. 9 : And that's just, when I got 10 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no 11 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my 12 27 years, this is not my first time around a 13 dead inmate. So, I've seen inmates fall out, 14 and die. So, there's no way. And when I got 15 to the hospital, because they was transporting 16 him, I met them at the hospital. So -. 17 : So, did you see them take 18 him out of the ambulance? 19 : When I met them at the 20 hospital, he was -. When I got to the 21 hospital, you know how you - he was already out 22 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe, 23 secured area in the hospital room. But he was 24 already deceased. 25 : Do you know if, at that EFTA00062176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 time, what he was wearing? 2 : I can't recall. I can just 3 -. Whatever was on the video over the news, 4 that's what he was wearing. Because I mean, 5 that is on that there, with the thing in his 6 mouth. That's what he was wearing. 7 : Okay. And then, as far 8 as, like, you know, all of the speculation 9 that's out there, do you have any information 10 that would suggest that Epstein did not take 11 his own life? 12 : I don't because I wasn't 13 there. You know, and, you know, what I 14 speculate is totally different. I mean, it is 15 what it is. 16 : Well, what is your 17 speculation? 18 : I just believe that -. 19 don't know how they went in the room. So, I 20 wasn't there, of how they went in the room. 21 You know, because, you know, when the doctor 22 say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took 23 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and 24 the only way you can get -. I don't care if 25 that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not EFTA00062177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_- 1 doing it by yourself. 2 So, I don't know how they entered the 3 room. But policy states, when you go in the 4 room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. 5 Period. And you can't just pop that door. 6 Because how do you know that inmate is not 7 still living where he is trying to kill you, 8 and then escape? Or you definitely need help. 9 That's why you have to wait for a lieutenant, 10 because that lieutenant has to give you 11 instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift 12 that person, where if you go - to me - there is 13 no way, if it was two or three people, and we 14 picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the 15 news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22). 16 I just think, me personally, and hadn't 17 heard anything, but I just think one person was 18 trying to do it by itself, and this, that's no 19 the proper way. And that's just my opinion. 20 : Right. 21 : Because in all the suicides, 22 and I've seen - I was at, remember, I was at 23 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I've seen numerous, and 24 I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at 25 least three or four people. Midnight, I EFTA00062178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 understand, at night, you only have, but it 2 don't matter. These inmates are locked down. 3 So, they can -. You can -. If I have a 4 hanging, they're already told. I'm already 5 telling people, you know to vacate that post. 6 Yes. 7 Anything can happen up there, but I would 8 rather have three or four people with me, in 9 the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because 10 don't know what's going on. You know, we heard 11 all the stuff that went on with peppy, so 12 definitely, I don't want something happening at 13 midnight, when you could just vacate your post, 14 come up there, and respond. 15 : So, is kind of what 16 you're saying, that, like, by having one 17 officer enter the cell, to respond -- 18 : Should have never happened. 19 : -- to Epstein, that could 20 actually cause more harm -- 21 : Of course. 22 are you talking about 23 physically, though, too, not only the ruse of, 24 you know, this person could overpower you, and 25 now have you as a hostage, but you could become EFTA00062179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1__ 1 - that person who was attempting to hang 2 themself, or hanging themself -- 3 : Would it --- -- 4 : -- could it become more 5 physical -- 6 : That is correct. 7 : -- during the attempt. 8 : Because what if - my thing 9 is this - what if he was almost there, wasn't 10 deceased, and what if you're trying to lift 11 him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and 12 you -. Because if, you know, remember, when 13 they did the autopsy, then I would say, there's 14 no way he's going to break that where, unless, 15 you know, they was trying to say, you know, we 16 killed them, unless one person is trying to do 17 it. Epstein wasn't 140 pounds. He was 200 18 something. So, there is no way I could lift 19 that dude. There's no way. So, I would never 20 go in by myself. So, that's my speculation, 21 where somebody tried to do it by themselves, 22 cover it up, and that's what I see. Maybe I'm 23 wrong. But that's my speculation. That's 24 always going to be my speculation. Because 25 : So -- EFTA00062180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 : -- I've been doing this for 2 too long. 3 : -- so, you're speculating 4 that the individual who went in could have 5 harmed him more than helped him, but do you 6 have any reason to believe that anyone, 7 including that staff member, are actually the 8 one that harmed him in the first place? Like, 9 do you know what I'm saying? 10 : Honestly, with them two, it 11 could have been anything. And that's just me. 12 It could have been. It could have been any. 13 Listen. I've seen a lot in the BOP. It could 14 have been anything. I don't know. 15 : Okay. 16 : It could have been anything. 17 : Did you ever hear 18 anything about, like, letting one inmate's cell 19 door open, while also letting Epstein's cell 20 open -- 21 : No. 22 : -- so that -- 23 : No. 24 : -- anything like that -? 25 : No. EFTA00062181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 116 : Okay. : Have I heard it in the BOP? 3 Yes. In my 27 years. But in Epstein's case, 4 no. 5 : Okay. So, that's never 6 been a rumor that you've heard, that another 7 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein? 8 : I mean, you hear it, not in 9 the BOP, you hear it on the outside. I never 10 heard it on the BOP. Never heard staff, you 11 know, speculating that. Never. 12 : Okay. 13 : Because if I would have, I 14 probably would have wrote a memo about it. 15 : All right. 16 : Can I ask a question on that? 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : You said you've seen inmates 19 hanging themselves before. Right? You've 20 seen, you've been in that situation before. 21 : Many times. 22 : How -? Is it possible for, 23 if you're responding, you go in with a couple 24 of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord 25 off -? EFTA00062182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 : No. We don't do that. In 2 all my lieutenants' life, and I was a 3 lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the 4 fact, but mine, we're taught this. There's no 5 ifs, ands, or buts. You're taught to go in 6 with enough people. One person, if it's two 7 inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if 8 it's day watch, and you should have at least 9 ten people. That's just like if you're having 10 a use of force. If there is one person, close 11 to five. 12 If you can't get five, you at least want 13 to have four. I'm not going to have three 14 people. I'm going to wait until they get 15 there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to 16 save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, 17 you've got to look at your safety, and it's 18 really - when you're going to use of force, 19 it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to 20 one. So, you always kind of use that concept. 21 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our 22 job is one person lift the body, you have a cut 23 down tool, which is here. I have one. And you 24 cut the inmate down. That's a cut down tool. 25 : That's what they refer to as EFTA00062183 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 a cutter? 2 : That's considered a cut down 3 tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down 4 tool. You get them from Galls. 5 : But if they say, oh, he 6 used a cutter to cut him down, that's what 7 they're talking about. Correct? 8 : They had -. They didn't 9 have something like this. I guess the new 10 warden wanted to order some. They cut down 11 tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a 12 small little cut down tool where, let's say 13 you're cutting down something, to me, if 14 yodon't hold that inmate upright, you're doing 15 more damage, because you're trying to cut it 16 down. 17 : Okay. 18 : So, you're doing like this, 19 and what are you doing? You're shaking 20 whatever is on his neck, if it's tight, you're 21 shaking it down. These right here are actual 22 cut down tools, where you're going to go like 23 this one time, and it's just going to cut it. 24 So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he 25 is. Let's say you do have -. Every SHU has EFTA00062184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 cut down tools. Because they do. 2 But once again, who is responsible? 3 That's the captain. Checking equipment. 4 Making sure your equipment is not dull. After 5 two or three years, if you're not using 6 something, you're always supposed to check that 7 equipment. It's normal. And then, psychology, 8 they always do their mock drills. They do 9 their moc drills, I think, quarterly. You 10 know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that 11 time, I would check myself, but I don't - me 12 personally - I would check myself. You just -. 13 You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a 14 hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, 15 because once again, how does that look to me? 16 How does that look? Like, if they did have a 17 camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right. 18 : Speaking of cameras, do 19 you have any information, or reason to believe, 20 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in 21 the SHU? 22 : Hmm. Actually, when I was 23 at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera 24 was working. And that's just me -. My -. 25 Because they even had cameras in the cell. EFTA00062185 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras 2 in the cell. 3 : G-tier, and 10 South. 4 : 10 South. 5 : Right? 6 : Hmm. I don't know if it was 7 just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier. 8 They had -. No. I don't want to say that. 9 They had -. Because when we went in some cells 10 11 : Okay, that was the end of 12 the range, or each end of each range has a 13 camera. 14 : No. I'm not talking about 15 that. You have -. No. I - listen - I've been 16 in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all 17 that. But they had some cameras in some cells, 18 and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? 19 No. But they had those. I'm telling you they 20 had them. Because I remember going in the 21 cell, taking the inmate out. On what's that? 22 You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the 23 bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and 24 show the camera. Because the inmate had, the 25 inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was, EFTA00062186 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm 2 telling you. This is, like, no more than, 3 like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue 4 off the -. So, and that was an old camera. 5 So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells. 6 : So, you said six months ago, 7 from today or six months from the Epstein 8 incident? 9 : No. From today, but those 10 cameras been -. Those are old cameras. 11 They're not, like -. I can tell the new 12 cameras are new cameras, I know how they look. 13 All the new cameras they just put in, that's an 14 old camera. 15 : Was it -- 16 : And I -. 17 in dry cell? 18 : That was not in dry cell. 19 I'm telling you. It's probably there still 20 now. It's - I'm telling you - it's an old 21 camera. 22 : So, but do you have any 23 information that someone intentionally knocked 24 the cameras offline? 25 : Hmm. EFTA00062187 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : Or just your speculation? 2 : My thing is, I can tell you 3 this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, 4 it wasn't the captain. But any time a camera 5 was down, like, there would be - how you say 6 it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, 7 nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, 8 we would know. And then, it would be forced to 9 make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP. 10 So, if the cameras was down, especially 11 certain cameras, they wouldn't even let inmates 12 out. They won't let them out. Because we 13 can't see certain things. So, I don't 14 was shocked to see that cameras wasn't 15 was very shocked. Very. Because with those 16 cameras, I think you could have saw more, and 17 it could have either helped or hindered people. 18 It didn't matter. I would rather for the 19 cameras to work. I don't care whether it's 20 there to get me or not. If the cameras was 21 working, I think the investigation would have 22 completed probably a long time ago. 23 : Yeah. Do you know who 24 was in charge of the cameras? 25 : The captain. Because it EFTA00062188 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com 2 tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech. 3 Communication. 4 : Facilities manager, but - 5 6 : No. But it's still going to 7 be the captain because it's both of them 8 together, facilities manager and the captain, 9 because if something is not working, the 10 captain should know first. 11 : But how would have the 12 captain, or the facilities manager, have found 13 out? Who would have told them? 14 : Communications. They 15 should. Listen, if a camera is not working in 16 there, communications. That is - at that time, 17 it was . So, job is to report 18 that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number 19 seven, number eight in SHU was not working. 20 Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But 21 that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's 22 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the 23 captain, then, could make that decision of what 24 they want to do. Of how they want to go about 25 things. That's his job. That's EFTA00062189 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 communications. 2 : Remember those initials 3 that we read earlier today? They're not 4 but whomever else would have been 5 checking -- 6 : I'm trying to think who -- 7 : -- out those, I think it 8 was the CMS or something like that. 9 : The only person who was in 10 there then was That I'm aware of. 11 : No, that's who he would have 12 contacted as -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- as (Indiscernible 15 *01:36:45). 16 : But that was a BOP 17 person. 18 : No. It's an office, I think. 19 : Yeah. 20 : Oh. 21 -: was the only 22 contractor, I mean, com, because they just 23 hired another person. 24 : Okay. 25 : And he wasn't -. Yeah. EFTA00062190 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 : So -- 2 : It was just 3 would have been 4 the only person. 5 : Yeah. It was just 6 : Is there an office inside the 7 BOP called the CMS? 8 : That's right by the -. 9 Where all the stuff is at? For the cameras and 10 all that. Where they -? 11 : Was it called? The CMS. 12 We're just trying to figure out what that is. 13 : Yeah. That's Camera 14 Maintenance -. Camera Maintenance System. So 15 16 : So, it's a thing. Not a 17 person. 18 : -- yeah, it's a thing. You 19 go -- 20 : Okay. 21 : -- you go right by the 22 lieutenant's office, and it's right in the back 23 of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) -- 24 : So, he probably -- 25 you open that door EFTA00062191 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 : -- checked in the CMS, 2 not checking with the, like -- 3 : Okay. 4 : -- another person. 5 : Well, he said he checked 6 with the team. Well, that's -. It could be 7 If he checked with the CMS, well, I only 8 remember system, but that would be somebody in 9 the region. But his office is there. Like, he 10 could open that office, if something is down, 11 he know why it's down. Then he would report 12 that to either somebody higher. Either 13 regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what's 14 going on? Like, central office, or somebody. 15 Just like the phones. If the phones are down, 16 it's the central office guy that usually fix 17 the phone. So, it could have been the central 18 office, or the regional office. So, that could 19 have been the CMS he was talking about. 20 : Go ahead. Sorry. 21 : Just last clarifying. Just, 22 I know I asked you the question. Was it, do 23 you think it would have been possible if Thomas 24 walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, 25 hanging? As one person, do you think he could EFTA00062192 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off 2 himself? 3 : Ripped it. 4 : Ripped it off. 5 : Everybody was nervous at the 6 time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, 7 what's the first -? What's the first thing a 8 kid do? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm 9 trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this 10 dude because, I already know I messed up. I 11 was either sleeping or doing whatever I was 12 doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right 13 there. Well, I could see all the activity that 14 this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a 15 round. That's it. So, if I'm not doing 16 something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to 17 try to fix it. 18 : Was it possible for him to 19 pull it off without a cutter? 20 : If the cutter wasn't 21 working. That sheet? No. It's hard as -. 22 Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, 23 inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. 24 So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole 25 hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to EFTA00062193 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 take a sheet, and pull it, and you're going to 2 burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for 3 about a month. So, it's hard. Because my 4 understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it's 5 a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if 6 he had it knotted right, there's no way you 7 could take it down by your hand. 8 : And if a cutter was not used, 9 if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it 10 off, you think that's not possible? You're 11 saying that's not possible? 12 : Hmm. I saw what the media, 13 how his room was set up. Actually, I've been 14 up there. I saw it because they had the room 15 carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so 16 heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and 17 then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot 18 was still there, and you cut it, like this, 19 there's no way. There -. I don't -. Listen, 20 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible 21 *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm 22 going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. 23 There's no way. There's no way. 24 : Be similar to, like, 25 saying that he ripped a rope in half EFTA00062194 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : Yeah. 2 : -- right? 3 : Once again, these are little 4 ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed. 5 They had it tied tight enough to where I 6 couldn't do it in the knot (Indiscernible 7 *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole 8 hand. So, I had to -. That's why I wind up 9 getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had 10 burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep 11 scar. There is no way. There is And that, 12 I saw the spread. There is no way you're going 13 yank a spread off -. Unless it's coming, 14 unraveling from the actual knot. You know how 15 you do your shoelace? 16 : Yeah. 17 : Yeah. 18 : That's it. There's no way 19 you're going to do it. There's no Not even 20 - the biggest person in there was - not 21 even he could probably do it. 22 meaning -- 23 24 25 EFTA00062195 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 : Okay. 2 : He can't even do it. Arai 3 he's a big dude. There's no way. 4 : Anything else? 5 : Anything that we're 6 missing, that we should know about? 7 (Indiscernible *01:41:14). 8 : You guys are right on point. 9 : Well, you've been very 10 helpful. Thank you. 11 : Thank you for taking the time 12 to talk to us today. 13 : You're welcome. 14 : If there is anything you can 15 think about in the future, if you think there's 16 any information that might help us in the 17 investigation, please feel free to reach out 18 : No problem. 19 : -- and share that 20 information. 21 : But you sent it - let me 22 clarify, though, with the AW, 23 - you sent it to her, you sent those 24 pictures to her government phone. Correct? 25 : That is correct. EFTA00062196 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 : Okay. 2 : And her - and like I said -- 3 : (Indiscernible *01:41:38). 4 : -- if it was (840), I think 5 it was a I don't -. I didn't -- 6 -- (804) or (840)? 7 : (840). 8 : (840). 9 : I think that's her. 10 Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come 11 from one institution to another, they can 12 actually keep their government phone. 13 : Okay. 14 : They just register it with 15 the agency here. 16 : Okay. Perfect. All right. 17 Well, thank you very much. 18 : Yes. This is Special Agent 19 . The time is 2:32 p.m. on 20 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the 21 interview. 22 23 24 25 26 EFTA00062197 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00062198