EFTA00062293.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00062293 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00062294 3 1 : This is special agent 2 The recorder is now on. My name is 3 . I'm a special agent with the 4 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the 5 Inspector General, New York Field Office, and 6 these are my credentials. 7 : All right. 8 : This interview is with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee, 10 . It is being conducted as part of an 11 official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of 12 the Inspector General investigation. Today is 13 August 5th, 2021, and the time is 6:19 p.m. 14 This interview is being conducted at the 15 Metropolitan Correctional Center, MCC, 150 Park 16 Row, New York City. Also present is DOJ/OIG . 17 Senior Special Agent, This 18 interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent 19 Could everyone please identify 20 themselves for the record, and spell your last 21 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special 22 Agent, 23 : My name is senior special 24 agent, , with the U.S. 25 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector EFTA00062295 4 1 General. . And these are 2 my credentials. 3 : Okay. And my name is 4 Senior Officer with the Federal Bureau 5 of Prisons. 6 7 too. 8 9 10 11 : And spell your last name, : Thank you, sir. : This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate, Jeffrey 12 Epstein, and the surrounding circumstances. 13 You are being asked to voluntarily provide 14 answers to our questions. Will you agree to a 15 voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 : Yes. 17 : Please review DOJ/OIG form 18 I1I-226/2. It states, the United States 19 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 20 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 21 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 22 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 23 information as part of an investigation being 24 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00062296 5 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure, security failure, and 4 false certifications. This is a voluntary 5 interview. Accordingly -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- you do not have to answer 8 any questions. No disciplinary action will be 9 taken against you if you choose not to answer 10 any questions. 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : Any statement you furnish may 13 be used as evidence in any future criminal 14 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 15 proceedings, or both." 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : The waiver states, "I 18 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 19 above and I am willing to make a statement and 20 answer questions. No promises or threats have 21 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 22 any kind has been used against me." Please 23 review the form. If you understand and agree, 24 sign your name, and print your name right below 25 it. EFTA00062297 6 1 : Here's a pen for you, if 2 you need one. 3 : So, do I need a union rep for 4 this? 5 : You could have one, if 6 you want, but like we mentioned, it's going to 7 be primarily to review the statement that you 8 already provided. 9 : Okay. 10 : And just to ask for some 11 clarification on some of the information that 12 you provided. 13 : Let's get this over with. 14 : Thank you for signing. This 15 is Agent I'm going to put the date as 16 August 5th, 2021. And the time is 6:22 p.m. 17 The place is MCC, New York. I'm signing at the 18 line for signature of the Office of the 19 Inspector General, Special Agent. Senior 20 Special Agent, would you sign it? 21 : This is Dennis 22 Matulewicz. I'm signing as the witness. 23 : Did you understand the form? 24 : Yes. 25 : You understand it's a EFTA00062298 7 1 voluntary interview -- 2 : Yeah. 3 : -- and you can end the 4 interview. 5 : Like -. 6 : You don't have to answer if 7 you don't want to. 8 : It's been like this every 9 time. 10 : Yes. 11 : Yeah. 12 : Before starting the 13 interview, I would like to place you under 14 oath. Can you please raise your right hand? 15 , do you swear to tell the truth and 16 nothing but the truth during this interview? 17 : Yes. 18 : Thank you. You can put your 19 hand down. , please let me know if 20 you do not understand any questions I ask, and 21 I will try and repeat it, or try to rephrase it 22 for you. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Okay. I just wanted to show 25 the recorder is right there. EFTA00062299 8 1 2 : : Yup. What is your current home 3 address? 4 : My current home address would 5 be 6 : Where is that? 7 : In • 8 : What part? 9 • 10 • . Okay. 11 What is your date of birth? 12 • • • 13 What is your social security 14 number? 15 16 What is your current phone 17 number? 18 19 : What is your highest level of 20 education? 21 : High school with some college. 22 : What high school? 23 • 24 25 : Okay. And some college. Did EFTA00062300 9 1 2 3 4 you earn a degree? : No. I haven't finished that. I started in . And then, I did online. So, 5 and now, I'm working here. 6 : What major are you following? 7 : It was criminal justice. 8 : Were you planning - you were 9 going to finish that up, you said? 10 : I want to. 11 : Okay. Do you have any 12 military service? 13 : Yes. 14 : What branch? 15 : Army. 16 : Honorably discharged? 17 : Yes. 18 : When did you serve? 19 20 : And what grade were you when 21 you left? 22 : I was when I left. 23 : Okay. How long have you 24 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 25 : Approximately six years now. EFTA00062301 10 1 2 date? 3 4 year. 5 6 7 What was your enter on duty : It can be a month and : Yeah. : Yeah. It was Yeah. Because I just made six years. 8 But I could get that, as -- 9 : Oh, that's easy. 10 -- a paper. 11 : It's fine. It's just a 12 know approximately when you started. 13 : Okay. And what did you prior 14 to working at the Metropolitan Correctional 15 Center? 16 : Army. Cleaning job. And car 17 dealerships. Until I landed this. 18 : Okay. And what year did you 19 start here, again? 20 21 22 23 • • : With the MCC? : Yes. : Have you been here at the MCC 24 the whole time? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062302 11 1 : Okay. What is your current 2 position with the MCC? 3 4 5 supervisor? 6 : Senior Officer. Who is your current : The Operations Lieutenant. 7 : What's the name? 8 : I think is the 9 Operations tonight. 10 : Operations Lieutenant. Do 11 you -? 12 : So, what do you mean by 13 that? It's every day, it's a different one, or 14 (Indiscernible *00:06:15)? 15 : It can very well be. So, the 16 lieutenants sometimes will work on a different 17 schedule than us. So, our schedule, like, a 18 schedule might not line up, like, tonight I'm 19 working, is working right now, but some - 20 like, yesterday, it was that was 21 working. 22 23 24 25 : Sure. : So, you know, you never know. : Okay. : Do you recall being EFTA00062303 12 1 previously interviewed by the FBI and OIG 2 regarding the Epstein investigation? 3 : Yes. 4 : I'm going to read you a 5 summary of the FBI's notes. The reason, these 6 notes belong to the FBI, but because the OIG 7 was present, we do have the notes along with 8 you, too. So, I'm going to read it -- 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : -- just tell me if there's 11 any corrections, or -- 12 13 14 : Okay. : -- anything that's missing. : Okay. 15 : I'm going to go right into 16 it. %•% informed that he has been a guard 17 with the Bureau" -. 18 : Yeah, yeah. Start from 19 the beginning. 20 : All right. So, "On September 21 25, 2019, at approximately 11:30 hours, the 22 undersigned, along with Special Agent 23 of the Office of the Inspector 24 General, Special Agent of the 25 Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Assistant EFTA00062304 13 1 United States Attorneys, for the southern 2 district of New York, , and 3 did interview Federal Bureau of 4 Prisons Correctional Guard, 5 Date of birth: , at the Southern 6 District of New York. This interview was 7 conducted in the presence of attorney. 8 informed that he has been a guard with 9 the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) for approximately 10 three years, all of which have been at the 11 Metropolitan Correctional Center." 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : So, are you represented 14 in this matter? Are you represented in this 15 matter? 16 : Yeah. I guess so. I mean, I 17 had a lawyer -- 18 : Yeah. So, this is -- 19 : -- then. 20 : -- so, I do want to make 21 sure you understand this is a voluntary 22 interview. I know that you had an attorney 23 there. Are you good with us reviewing this 24 report, and -? 25 : Yeah. We could review it real EFTA00062305 14 1 quick, and just get this over with. 2 : Okay. 3 informed that he has 4 completed all the basic and required training 5 for being a guard in the BOP, and that he is 6 currently the senior officer in the Special 7 Housing Unit (SHU)." 8 : Well, then I was. 9 : At that point. Okay. And 10 August 2019? 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Okay. Did you -? 13 : I wasn't the number one 14 officer that night, but -. 15 : Who was that number one 16 officer? 17 : I'm not even sure. 18 : Here's the daily 19 assignment roster from that night. 20 : Can you see it, by looking at 21 the -? We provided the MCC New York roster for 22 August 9th, 2019. 23 : Okay. He was on OT. Yeah. I 24 was the number three man. 25 : You were number three. Who EFTA00062306 15 1 was number one? Are you pointing to I. 2 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. 5 : Now, was - was 6 he non-custody, though? 7 : Yeah. 8 : So, being that he was 9 non-custody, would you actually be kind of the 10 OIC, being that you were, like, were you more 11 senior, or -? 12 : No. Actually, he has more 13 time in the Bureau than I do. 14 : He does? Okay. So, he 15 would be kind of responsible, at the time, 16 then? 17 : Yeah. Like, the way it's a 18 very tricky thing, the way that that works 19 here. 20 : Okay. 21 : You know, so, even if - 22 because he has more time than me, he's not - 23 because he started in custody - he has more 24 time than me, so I guess when they gave him the 25 overtime, they just, like, filled in the slot. EFTA00062307 16 1 : Okay. 2 : You know, I worked in there 3 every day, at that point in time, but what am I 4 supposed to tell the man, like, yo, you're 5 number one, what am I supposed to anybody? 6 : Sure. So, technically, 7 because he's number one, he was the OIC? 8 : Yeah. 9 : I gotcha. 10 : But, you know, that's -. 11 : Have you received MCC 12 refresher training? Annual refresher training? 13 : In SHU? 14 : In SHU, MCC training, and 15 also in SHU. 16 : Oh, like, oh, yeah, the annual 17 -- 18 19 20 21 : Yeah. : -- training or whatever? : Yeah. : Like, yeah. I just did that 22 on the computer this year. 23 24 25 : Ask him -- : Did you have -. : -- you know, you want to EFTA00062308 17 1 ask him about at the time. 2 : I'm going back. Yeah. In 3 2019, did you receive the annual MCC refresher 4 training? 5 : I believe so. I don't even 6 remember at this point, but I could look it up 7 in the computer. 8 : Everybody pretty much 9 does every year, though. Correct? 10 : Yeah. 11 : So, you (Indiscernible 12 *00:10:10). 13 : But we're supposed to. But 14 sometimes, we'll be off. 15 : Sure. 16 : Do you recall, in 2019, if 17 you received the SHU training? 18 : Quarterly training. 19 : Quarterly training. 20 : In order to your -. You 21 were, like, assigned to the SHU. 22 : Yeah. At some point in time, 23 I probably did. What the dates are, I don't 24 remember. 25 : Okay. What about the suicide EFTA00062309 18 1 prevention training? In 2019. 2 3 of the SHU. 4 : That would have been part : Part of the SHU training. 5 : Yeah, as well as part of 6 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- the annual refresher 9 training. 10 : Yeah. I've seen that on the 11 computer before, too. Now, in 2019, I don't 12 remember. It was -- 13 : Sure. 14 : -- It was too --. 15 : Okay. We're going to go -- 16 : Maybe it was something that 17 was mentioned in the course, that -- 18 : Right. Yeah, yeah. 19 : -- it's 2021, right? 20 : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 21 : I understand. "When asked 22 about his activities for August 9th, 2019, 23 replied, `I assumed that's Epstein day.' 24 informed that, as far as he can recall, 25 he worked the 2:00 p.m. by 10:00 p.m. shift." EFTA00062310 19 1 : Yes. 2 : Can you let me know who else 3 worked with you during that shift? According to 4 when you - if you can refer to the roster. 5 : Okay. For 2:00 to 10:00, this 6 is me right here, coming in at 2:00 to 10:00. 7 And so, when I came in, some of these people 8 from the dayshift was still here. 9 : Can you - because we're 10 recording -- 11 : Oh. 12 : -- say the names that you're 13 pointing to. 14 : Okay. So, when I came in to 15 do SHU number three, you had 16 still working. And then, at 4:00, when 17 the shift change came on, this is when these 18 individuals came on, , Noel. Well, 19 Noel was already there, I believe. Because she 20 got stuck for overtime that night. But that's 21 when they came in. And then, nobody was 22 assigned to SHU four, after 4:00. 23 24 25 : So, you started 2:00 p.m.? : I started at 2:00 p.m. : And during the time that you EFTA00062311 20 1 started, - you said 2 , and was still there? 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : And at 4:00 p.m., 5 came on? 6 left when I came in, 7 because he's 1400. His time ended. 8 : Okay. And then, at 4:00 9 p.m., came in? 10 : Yeah. He came up for 11 overtime. Noel came in for her regular shift. 12 : Okay. I'm going to continue 13 on. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And I'm going to read that 16 line again. informed that, as far as he 17 can recall, he worked a 2:00 p.m. by 10:00 p.m. 18 shift, and did not see Epstein for the majority 19 of his shift because Epstein was with his 20 lawyers all day." 21 : Yes. 22 first recalls seeing 23 Epstein at approximately 8:00 p.m., and at that 24 time, informed BOP guard-" - 25 that's EFTA00062312 21 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : "That Epstein needed to make 3 a phone call. informed that he made the 4 -." 5 : That's backwards. 6 : Go ahead. Clarify that for 7 me. 8 : What happened was is, 9 informed me that he needed to make a phone 10 call. That's, like, because I can't make that 11 determination, and that's not an officer, 12 that's a unit manager. 13 : So, is a unit 14 manager? 15 : Yeah. 16 : Do you know his first name, 17 offhand? 18 : No. 19 : Okay. 20 21 22 23 24 25 _: ? Is that a yes? : Yes. : Okay. : That's all right. : Sorry. : No problem. EFTA00062313 22 1 : That's only because of 2 this. 3 : Yeah, yeah. 4 : You know, picking it up. 5 : So -- 6 : I knew what you meant. 7 : -- that night, were you in 8 the SHU when this happened? Did 9 approach you in the SHU? 10 : Yes. 11 : So, that night, when that 12 happened, I'm running around, as I normally do, 13 doing things in the SHU. I get the call on the 14 radio. You know, you've got to return, coming 15 into SHU, or whatever. So, when he gets 16 brought in or whatever -- 17 : Who gets brought in? 18 : -- Epstein. 19 : Okay. 20 : Epstein gets brought into the 21 SHU. Just like normal, you know, like, you 22 take them, pat search them, and everything like 23 that, before you put them in the cell. So, 24 informed me, hey, he needs to make a 25 phone call, I don't know if, like, you know, EFTA00062314 23 1 the judge or anybody tell him that, like, yeah, 2 he gets to make a phone call or whatever. So, 3 okay, no problem. You know, you're owing me at 4 this point in time or whatever. So, now, at 5 that point in time, there was a lot of stuff 6 going on. That, I do remember. There was a 7 lot of things going on. Two other inmates 8 attempted suicides, and, you know -. 9 : We'll come to I'm going 10 to go through that, too. 11 : Okay. 12 : You said, so, approximately 13 what time did Epstein get brought back? Do you 14 recall? 15 : It was 8:00 something, but it 16 was, like, very close to, like, the end of the 17 day. It was locking time. The day was done. 18 Because Epstein usually did that. He would 19 stay with his lawyers from the time in the 20 morning, to the end, when they couldn't stay no 21 more. 22 : Okay. 23 : So, he would wait all the way 24 to the very end. And he came back after the 25 legal visits were done, that's around the time EFTA00062315 24 1 he came back. That day, a specific time, I 2 can't remember. But I know it was around 8:00 3 ish, you know, 8:00, 9:00 ish. 4 : That's fine. 5 : Because the legal visits 6 usually end about 8:00. But, you know, there 7 was other things going on. You know that? 8 : Who brought him back? 9 • handed him off to me. 10 : So -- 11 : If I remember correctly. 12 -- so, he brought him back 13 from attorney visiting? 14 15 16 : Yes. : Okay. : So, he handed him off to me, 17 and told me he needed a phone call or whatever. 18 So, I had to put Epstein, you know - where'd I 19 put him? - I had to put him in the shower 20 because I couldn't put him in the room, with 21 the phone, by himself, and I'm pulling out 22 other inmates at the time, because one of them 23 had a noose tied around his neck. He was 24 probably playing it, but you can't joke like 25 that. EFTA00062316 25 1 2 : : Which inmate? Do you recall? I don't remember his name at 3 the moment. 4 : Okay. And so, you put him in 5 the shower, you said? 6 : Yeah. 7 : And what did instruct 8 you? 9 : And what - oh, just to give 10 him a social call, and that's it. 11 : So, it was a social call, he 12 mentioned? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Not a legal call? 15 : I believe it was a social 16 call. 17 : And do you recall, who 18 plugged the phone in? Was it you or 19 : I don't remember who plugged 20 the phone in. 21 : Okay. And do you remember 22 who he said that Epstein wanted to talk to? 23 : No. He never told me who 24 Epstein wanted to talk to. 25 : Was any of the instructions, EFTA00062317 26 1 like, did walk with you to the -? Did 2 he come into the shower area with you? 3 : No. 4 : Well, who provided him 5 the call? Did give him the phone, or 6 did you give him the phone? 7 : I think gave him the 8 phone. 9 : All right. 10 : Because I didn't hand him the 11 phone. 12 : Okay. 13 : I mean, told me what 14 he, you know, what he needed or whatever. 15 Okay. No problem. Took him over there to the 16 shower, put him in there, and then, I can't 17 remember who plugged in the phone, to give him 18 the phone call. I don't remember right now. 19 20 21 : Because did you -- : You might add -. : -- ever finish that 22 sentence? So, finish the sentence -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- before asking the 25 questions. EFTA00062318 27 1 : Like -. 2 : Okay. 3 : Because it was two years 4 ago. He's got to -. And doesn't it say in 5 there 6 : Yeah. It'll go. 7 : -- that -. 8 informed that he made 9 the decision to have Epstein call from G-tier 10 shower to make the call, and believes 11 : That, I did. Because I told 12 him, put him over here. Because we couldn't 13 put him next to these other inmates. That, 14 yeah. 15 : Okay. Because those are the 16 inmates that was threatening suicide? 17 18 19 20 his tier. 21 22 23 24 : Yeah. : Okay. : They were, and they were on : Okay. : So, on L-tier? : Yeah. : Was, people were 25 threatening suicide? EFTA00062319 28 1 2 3 : Yeah. : Okay. : I'm going to read that. 4 " informed that he made the decision to 5 have Epstein call from the G-tier shower to 6 make the call, and believes guards Noel and 7 were present, as well. informed 8 that dialed the number for Epstein." 9 : There we go. Yeah, because 10 this was a long time ago. 11 further informed that 12 he did not overhear the conversation, and that 13 was present for the call initially. 14 And then, left before the call ended. 15 says that during the Epstein call, another 16 inmate, Williams, was claiming to want to come 17 in from suicide, so that diverted some guards 18 from Epstein." And do you know how long 19 Epstein's call lasted? 20 : I'm not sure how long that 21 call lasted. I'm sure we could look on the 22 computer and get it. 23 : Do you know if 24 plugged that line into the legal line, or the - 25 EFTA00062320 29 1 : I don't. 2 : You don't know if it was a 3 recorded phone call? 4 5 6 Does : I don't. : Okay. And was that normal? normally do that? Allow calls on 7 the legal line, or -? 8 : Not without permission, to my 9 knowledge. 10 : Who would have to give 11 permission? 12 : Like, I've heard times that, 13 you know, a judge may call, like, this person 14 needs a legal call. And when that happens or 15 whatever, like, all right, we got to get these 16 people a legal call. And so, that does happen, 17 but I've never known him to do that on his own 18 accord. 19 : Okay. Our understanding is, 20 based on the investigation, I think Epstein 21 stated that he wanted to call his mother. So, 22 you think that would have been on the - that 23 should have been on the -? 24 : That should have been on the 25 recorded line. EFTA00062321 30 1 : That should have been. Okay. 2 And it should not have been on the legal line? 3 : No. 4 : And do you recall if 5 stayed with him for a little bit? Did he listen 6 to the conversation? Did anybody listen to the 7 conversation? 8 : I don't think so. Well, 9 that's -. 10 : Well, it says in here 11 that - so, just read the -- 12 13 14 : Yeah. : -- yeah. : Because I know was up 15 there for a while. 16 : Do you know how long 17 was there? Was he there for the 18 majority of the conversation, or just a 19 portion? 20 : Oh, maybe a portion, but I was 21 busy at the time, so I couldn't 22 23 24 whole time. 25 : Sure. : -- wasn't looking at him the : Because we have other EFTA00062322 31 1 people that were in there, that stated that 2 basically gave him a call, and left. 3 : Okay. 4 : And then, later, called 5 back and said, hey, his phone call is up, go 6 get the phone from him. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Does that sound right? 9 : That sounds about right or 10 whatever. I don't think I took that call. But 11 I do remember when -- 12 : Yeah. I don't think you 13 did, either. 14 : -- yeah, but I know when 15 everything was all said and done, then dealing 16 with the other inmates, you know, I can't 17 remember who took the phone out. I do remember 18 helping somebody bring Epstein back to his 19 cell, and put him in the cell, because I think 20 I was the one that put him in the cell. 21 : You put him back into his 22 cell? 23 : In his cell. 24 : Okay. You know, from the 25 shower, you brought Epstein back from G-tier EFTA00062323 32 1 over to L-tier. 2 : To his cell. 3 : Or into his cell. Okay. 4 : So, when you went to get 5 Epstein out of the cell, was the phone still in 6 there with him? 7 : I don't remember. 8 : Okay. And do you know how 9 long after he started the phone call, you 10 brought him back to the cell? 11 : With everything going on 12 : Just read it. 13 : I mean -. 14 : I think it says it in 15 there. So, you could keep on reading, and 16 then, it'll probably get to that. 17 "After all the guards dealt 18 with inmate Williams, Epstein needed to be 19 placed back in the cell. recalls no 20 other guard getting up to move Epstein, so he 21 made the move at approximately 9:30 p.m." 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 . recalls guard Noel 24 filing out the 30-minute round paperwork, while 25 he did some of the administrative computer EFTA00062324 33 1 stuff. informed that -." 2 : Before we get onto that, 3 though -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- does that sound right? 6 9:30 p.m.? Was that when 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : so, he basically was 9 put in there - what does it sound like? 10 around 8:00, and then, about -- 11 12 13 back? 14 : Mm-hmm. : -- 9:30, you moved him : Yeah. Because I, like, he had 15 to stay in there a little longer than probably 16 we wanted, because so much stuff was going on 17 that day. 18 : Right. 19 : Do you -. Go ahead. 20 : So, being that he was in 21 there for probably an hour, maybe an hour and a 22 half, the majority of that time wasn't spent on 23 the phone. Correct? 24 : No. 25 : Can you estimate, like, EFTA00062325 34 1 around -? 2 : Because if his phone calls 3 ended after 15-minutes, if did call 4 back or whatever, and that phone call - that 5 phone is supposed to die, it's supposed to go 6 off anyway after a certain timeframe. 7 : Even on a legal line? 8 : Not on a legal line. 9 : Right. So, the 10 information we have is, it was actually a legal 11 line call. 12 : Okay. 13 : And that's what we're a 14 little confused about, why he was given a 15 personal call on a legal line. But do you know 16 anything about that? 17 : I know up there in that SHU, 18 that if - and it's very difficult, especially 19 when you're short-staffed - you know, you have 20 orderlies that walk around and, you know, try 21 to help keep the place clean. If you're short 22 staffed, and you can't be everywhere, and you 23 have an orderly cleaning the tier, they will 24 take those little things, and flip the, you 25 know? Like, so, if you have somebody that's EFTA00062326 35 1 coming up to SHU to work overtime, who doesn't 2 work up there all the time, they don't know 3 that the inmate pulled a fast one, and moved 4 the thing that says legal down to social, and 5 vice versa. 6 : Oh, well, the information 7 we have is actually, it was an intentional 8 legal line. So, not that, like, an orderly 9 actually misplaced it, but it was intentionally 10 11 : No, no, no. Not the orderly 12 putting the line in or whatever. What I'm 13 saying is the stickers on the jacks on the 14 wall. 15 : Yeah, no, our information 16 is that actually was instructed, or 17 provided, was provided approval to give a legal 18 call. 19 : Oh, okay. 20 : And do a legal line. But 21 the instructions were also, that we understand, 22 that 23 call. 24 was supposed to monitor the entire : Hmm. 25 : And that's where we're EFTA00062327 36 1 trying to get, like, all right, well, how long 2 was that call, and how long did he monitor? Do 3 you know? 4 Gotcha. 5 6 7 -. 8 : And do you know that? : That, I don't know. Because I : So, if it lasted 15 9 minutes, do you think he was there for, like, 10 five minutes? The fact that he had to go back 11 somewhere, and then call, and say, hey, his 12 call is up, get that -- 13 : Yeah. 14 phone from him. Do 15 you remember -? Just because you put in there 16 that he did stay for the call. Can you -- 17 : Yes, I'm -- 18 -- in your recollection 19 at all, can you think about, about how long he 20 was even there? 21 : Probably somewhere between 22 five to ten minutes, but, like -- 23 : Okay. 24 : I mean, like, all that time 25 passed now, and I was running around, and -- EFTA00062328 37 1 : Sure. But just, you know 2 he wasn't there for the whole entire thing? 3 : Right. 4 : Okay. Sure. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And just to clarify, you 7 don't recall if gave instructions to 8 you, or if you overheard him give instructions 9 to Noel or about -- 10 : No. 11 -- monitoring the call? 12 : No. 13 : Okay. 14 : Like, because usually, on a 15 social call, you don't really have to monitor, 16 because you could just go on the computer, and 17 listen to the phone call. You know, on legal 18 calls, you know, they have attorney/client 19 privilege, so you can't listen anyway. So, any 20 time I know it may be a legal call going on, 21 and I know I can't listen in, it's because they 22 - well, this is now - but they put inmates in a 23 little visit room for their legal calls, so 24 they could do the teleconference because of 25 COVID. EFTA00062329 38 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But I can't even - you know 3 I can't sit there and listen to him make his 4 legal call. 5 : Sure. 6 : So, I, you know -? 7 : So, either way, you 8 didn't think you had to listen, because if it 9 was a legal line, you can't listen; if it was 10 social line, it was supposed to be recorded? 11 : Right. 12 : All right. And then, do 13 you -? 14 : And if we had more time, if I 15 knew, you know -- 16 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17 -- what to do. 18 : Absolutely. But do you 19 remember, did he instruct you to monitor the 20 call after he left? 21 : No. 22 : No. 23 : No. 24 : Okay. Okay. 25 : Any other questions on that? EFTA00062330 39 1 : No. 2 : Because I'm going to jump 3 off. Okay. recalls guard Noel filling 4 out the 30-minute round paperwork while he did 5 some administrative computer stuff." 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Do you know if she pre-filled 8 the 30-minute round paperwork? 9 : I do not. 10 : Okay. 11 : Is this the paperwork? 12 What's this? 13 : Yeah. 14 : That's the 30-minute round 15 sheet. Yeah. 16 : So, it's on August 9th, 17 2019? 18 : Is that for the SHU? 19 : Mm-hmm. Nope. This is L- 20 tier. 21 : This would be during evening 22 watch? 23 24 25 : This is morning watch. : Mm-hmm. : Day watch. Evening watch. EFTA00062331 40 1 : Okay. And you were working 2 during evening watch, right? 3 : From 2:00 to 10:00. 4 : So, who was doing the round 5 sheets? 6 : So, this is Noel right here. 7 : Who's on the other one? 8 : This one? 9 : Yeah. 10 : I have no idea whose signature 11 this is. This is day shift. Yeah. I don't 12 know whose signature this is right here. 13 • ? Is it -. 14 : Actually, hmm 15 : Like, 16 : It actually might be. Yeah. 17 That looks like an "R." Yeah. 18 : You're not sure, but 19 maybe , though? 20 : Yeah. Maybe. 21 : Because it stops, it 22 looks like, at about 2:00 p.m., and wasn't 23 done by, like, around 2:00 p.m.? 24 : That's exactly right, because 25 that's when I came in. So, I relieved EFTA00062332 41 1 that day. So, he stopped right here. 2 : And is that why they 3 stopped there, because he left? 4 : He -- 5 : So, it looks like they 6 weren't -- 7 : -- yeah, so, I guess the 8 9 : -- filled in for the rest 10 of the 11 : -- right, because the -- 12 : -- time. 13 : -- date, when I relieved him, 14 I guess he must have been the one controlling 15 this paper. So, I relieved him. And the crew 16 here didn't continue it. I just came in. So, 17 I probably didn't know at the time or whatever. 18 But I think we probably did say later, like, 19 what the hell is this? 20 : Okay. So, it's probably 21 And then, as you noticed, the other 22 -. Do you know why the other round counts 23 wouldn't be filled - the round -? 24 : These? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062333 42 1 2 3 filled in? 4 Yeah. : Why they wouldn't be For the day watch. The end 5 of day watch, and that would be from 6 : From 2:00 to 4:00. 7 -- 2:00 p.m. -. Yeah. 8 : Or 2:30, in this case. From 9 2:30 to 4:00. I'm going to assume that they 10 were forgetting because, like, from what I'm 11 looking at here - and this is just an 12 assumption - from what I'm looking at here, 13 from the time got into work, he was 14 the one filling out this paper. Nobody else 15 probably thought about it. 16 : Okay. So, when you 17 mentioned that Noel was filling out the 30- 18 minute round sheets, you're talking about over 19 here? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Okay. So, she was 22 filling out the -- 23 24 25 : Yeah -- : -- the day watch. : -- because she wasn't here EFTA00062334 43 1 yet. 2 : All right. 3 : She wasn't at work yet. 4 : Gotcha. So, what -. So, 5 we have information, the investigation has 6 informed us that she actually pre-populated the 7 round sheets that she filled out. Do you know 8 anything about her? When you say that she 9 filled out these things, did she fill them all 10 out in front of you? Did you see that? 11 : Huh-uh. I didn't see her do 12 that. 13 : You didn't see her pre- 14 populate it? Okay. Go ahead. 15 . informed that, before 16 he left -." 17 : I'm sorry. Sorry. I 18 should follow up. What did you see her do? 19 Since you said that you saw her filling out the 20 round sheets. 21 : Yeah. So -- 22 : What did you see? 23 -- yeah, I just saw the round 24 sheet sitting there, and she was doing it. So, 25 I'm assuming that she's just doing it for, EFTA00062335 44 1 okay, cool, we just did that round. And I'm on 2 the computer, doing the other admin work. 3 : Okay. So, you just -- 4 : Because -. 5 : -- saw her doing 6 something, but you weren't really watching over 7 her? 8 : Yeah. Because the thing is, 9 because remember when you asked me about the 10 SHU one position, and I'm SHU three? This is 11 the tricky part. may be on paper as 12 SHU one, but he's on overtime. I worked up 13 there every day. I'm the only one who has 14 access to do the stuff on the computer. 15 : Okay. 16 : So -. 17 : And what type of stuff 18 were you doing on the computer? 19 : So, the computer, you do 583s. 20 You do the - there's another SHU log-in there - 21 you do the 22 : When you say 583, that's 23 an incident report, right? 24 : Yeah. The incident reports. 25 You do the daily, like, inmates took showers, EFTA00062336 45 1 and then, the OIC thing has to have a 2 signature, but because nobody else has the 3 access to it, that portion will fall on me 4 because the paperwork still has to get done 5 anyway. 6 : Right. So, you were the 7 one on your shift that had access to the actual 8 computer systems 9 : Right. 10 : -- and the databases. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Okay. 13 : Yeah, because they don't. So, 14 I'm, like -- 15 : Sure. 16 -- handle this paperwork. The 17 physical paperwork. I'll take care of the 18 computerized. 19 : Okay. 20 . informed that, before 21 he left, he conducted a round and spoke to 22 Epstein, and asked, `Are you good?', to which 23 Epstein gave a thumbs up response." 24 : Yes. 25 : When you say conducted a EFTA00062337 46 1 round, did you conduct a round through all the 2 tiers, or just around up to Epstein, just to 3 check on him? 4 : I specifically went to 5 Epstein. 6 : Okay. 7 : I specifically went to that 8 dude. 9 : And you checked on him? 10 : And I checked. I looked at 11 him. Yo, you good? He gave me a thumbs up or 12 whatever. All right. 13 : So, what do you mean? 14 Yeah. So, that, I think what his clarification 15 is, you did a round on Epstein. You didn't do 16 a round throughout the SHU. Correct? 17 : No. Not throughout the SHU. 18 I have specifically checked on him. 19 : Oh, gotcha. Okay. 20 said that, before he 21 left, he went back to guards Noel and 22 and -", oh, this -. Vo. said that, before 23 he left, he went back to guards Noel and 24 and `Make sure you watch him.' 25 Referring to Epstein, "He's your priority." EFTA00062338 47 1 The wording on this is wrong. Do you recall 2 stating that to and Noel? "Make sure 3 you watch him"? 4 : Yes, I did. 5 "He's your priority."? 6 : Yeah, I did. 7 : Why would you state something 8 like that? 9 : I just didn't like the way he 10 was looking. I can't determine what this man 11 was thinking, but -. And he normally, you 12 know, saying, you ask him a question, if it's a 13 yes or a no question, he would normally just 14 give you a thumbs up or whatever, and stuff, 15 like, pretty much just not want to be bothered 16 with you, for the most part. 17 : Well, it was -. Wasn't 18 it not true that he was kind of the priority 19 for the whole SHU? Was this sign up in the SHU, 20 saying that, "Mandatory rounds must be 21 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, as per 22 God." 23 : Yeah. That was in the SHU. 24 : So, do you remember 25 seeing that? EFTA00062339 48 1 : I do remember seeing that. 2 Where it was actually posted or whatever, I 3 don't know. 4 : I think it was on one of 5 the computers. 6 : Yeah. I do remember seeing 7 that. Yeah. 8 : So, I'm assuming that's 9 also part of the reason why you checked on 10 Epstein. Correct? 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Because he was the SHU 13 priority? 14 : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. And then, you were 16 just reinforcing two of the people when you 17 left, "Make sure you got him"? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Okay. 20 : And then, I looked at the guy, 21 and then, you, you know, he just had a look on 22 his face. I'm, like, and then, that -. And 23 I'm, like, yeah. I stopped. 24 : So, you actually thought 25 something might be up? EFTA00062340 49 1 : Yeah. Because I'm looking at 2 him, he gave me the thumbs up or whatever. 3 I'm, like, he just looked different. I can't 4 explain it. But he just looked different. You 5 know, he didn't look like himself. He's an 6 entitled 7 : Yeah, yeah. 8 : -- you know, rich guy or 9 whatever. You know? Just very nonchalantly or 10 whatever, I'm, like, you don't usually do it 11 that way. 12 : Okay. So, you -- 13 : But that's my personal 14 opinion. 15 : Yeah. 16 : That's not a fact. 17 : Did you mention that at 18 all to -? 19 : I didn't tell them that part. 20 I just said, "Watch this guy." 21 : All right. So, you 22 didn't say why to watch him -- 23 : Hmm-mm. 24 • • 25 sure you watch him"? -- you just said, "Make EFTA00062341 50 1 : Yeah. I didn't give them no 2 details. I just said, "Watch this guy." 3 : Did you have a feeling 4 that he might hurt himself or anything like 5 that? 6 : I didn't know, but I just felt 7 that it was the best thing to just keep an eye 8 on this dude. 9 : Okay. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Something - your spidey 12 senses went up and said - something -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- something is amiss 15 here, or make sure you're watching him. 16 : Yeah. 17 : And your positive you 18 told them that? 19 : Yeah. 20 : Okay. And to both of 21 them? Or you just said it both at the same 22 time, or individually? 23 : I said it both at the same 24 time. 25 : All right. EFTA00062342 51 1 : So -. 2 : And that would have been 3 right around 10:00 p.m. 4 : Yeah. Right before I left, I 5 was, like, yeah, keep an eye on that dude. 6 : Okay. 7 : And right out the door. 8 9 10 they say okay? 11 : Okay. : Did they respond to you? Did : I don't even remember if they 12 did. I know they heard me because I was 13 standing right in front of them, but I don't 14 even remember if they responded or not. 15 : And then, when he gave you a 16 thumbs up, did he say anything else to you? 17 : Hmm-mm. 18 : There was no verbal 19 conversation? 20 : No. 21 : Okay. 22 : He very rarely talked unless 23 he wanted something. Yeah. 24 : Okay. And just because I'm 25 showing you these documents, can you initial EFTA00062343 52 1 and date the top of them? It's not to test 2 what's on the documents, it's more to -- 3 4 5 : To show you that -- : -- for our records, that -. : I saw it. 6 : You saw it. These are 7 documents we showed you. 8 : And you want me to sign and 9 date? 10 11 8/5/2021. 12 : And you said it was 8/5 -? Initial and date. Today is 13 '21. The same thing for the 14 other ones, too. Excuse me. This one, too? 15 : Yes, please. This, we'll 16 keep, just in case we go back and refer to it. 17 So, I'm going to read that line back, and 18 finish off the paragraph. said that, 19 before he left, he went back to guards Noel and 20 and, `Make sure you watch him," 21 referring 22 23 24 25 word. : And stated. Yeah. : Make sure you have that EFTA00062344 53 1 : "And stated," just make sure 2 I put that, "And stated, `Make sure you watch 3 him,' referring to Epstein, `He's your 4 priority.'" 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 stated that Epstein 7 seemed normal and he was just sitting there." 8 : And that's correct. 9 Right? 10 : Mm-hmm. Yeah because, like, 11 it's an opinion of mine. I can't tell you 12 : Sure. 13 : -- what I'm thinking. 14 : Absolutely. We just want 15 to make sure that the report is accurate. 16 . explained the 30- 17 minute rounds, and when asked about the 18 paperwork, stated that the exact times are 19 probably off because they are estimates." What 20 do you mean by "Estimates"? 21 : Because, at that point in 22 time, it was only three of us in there. You 23 know, so, is working overtime. So, 24 he's doing multiple things. He's doing his 25 regular job, and SHU stuff at the same time. EFTA00062345 54 1 So, and then, you got dudes over here acting 2 like they want to commit suicide. So now, as 3 you're doing rounds, and everything is going 4 on, you talk to one inmate, now this inmate has 5 a problem. You may forget sometimes to go up 6 there and just write it, you know, write it in 7 or whatever. So, sometimes they might be, 8 like, shit, fuck, I forgot. And then, they'll 9 go back or whatever. I'm not saying, but 10 that's just, you know, normal or whatever, 11 like, oh, man, I forgot. And you just go write 12 in it. That's just normal, how they do it. 13 That's why I hate these papers. I rather just 14 do it on the computer because you can't miss. 15 16 17 more, right? 18 : You have questions on that? : But there's still some : Yeah. "When told that there 19 is a video of the SHU area, stated that 20 he would be surprised to see video of the 21 rounds not being conducted." 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : When asked about -. 24 : Because they were on their 25 feet all day. EFTA00062346 55 1 : So, you're saying that they 2 went in and they did the rounds? 3 : Yeah. I've seen it. Because 4 as I'm doing my paperwork and talking to 5 inmates and stuff like that, they were moving 6 the whole time. I, you know, like, if I 7 remember correctly, I barely saw them sit down. 8 : So, you saw them moving. Did 9 you actually see them do the rounds, or you 10 just saw them move? 11 : I saw them going in and out of 12 tiers or whatever, because -. I know 13 had a blue bin, at one point in time, 14 he was going from tier to tier, doing 15 something. And I think Noel had the key. You 16 know, but it was a lot of movement that day. 17 So, I guess that's the best way to put it. 18 : So, you saw movement, but you 19 don't You didn't actually see 20 (Indiscernible *00:34:18)? 21 : They had to go down the range, 22 but I didn't, like -. Every single time, at 23 every 30-minute mark -- 24 : Yeah. 25 : I don't know. EFTA00062347 56 1 : Okay. 2 : Just finish the thing, 3 and then -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- you can ask the 6 additional questions. 7 : "When asked about the round 8 sheets and the sign-off procedures, could 9 not clearly remember who did what rounds 10 exactly, or what, if any, rounds he did. Only 11 that -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 -- he would not have signed 14 off on the rounds had they not been conducted." 15 : That's true. 16 : And based on the round 17 sheets, you're saying that you saw Noel? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Is that Noel's signature on 20 - 21 : That's Noel. 22 : -- on the evening watch? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Is that for all the tiers? 25 (Indiscernible *00:34:50). EFTA00062348 57 1 2 3 4 : This is -- : That's for L-tier, right? : -- this is for L-tier. Each sheet is for a different tier. And this is J- 5 tier. So, J-tier didn't get finished. K-tier 6 didn't get finished. 7 : What do you mean, they didn't 8 get finished? 9 : There's blank spots. 10 : For what time? 11 : 11:00 and 12:00. 12 : What were they doing? 13 : 11:00 - excuse me - 11:00 and 14 through 11:30. 15 : What's your take -- 16 : So -. 17 -- on why they would be 18 empty? 19 : Maybe they didn't -. Maybe 20 they didn't do it. I don't know. I don't know 21 why it would be empty. I'm thinking too much 22 now because I'm, like, if this was finished, 23 why wasn't -? 24 : What is it? You hesitated. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062349 58 1 2 3 4 : Explain that. : Like, I don't know. Because if you were doing the round here, how did you - ? Unless something happened at that time, at 5 night, but I wasn't at work at that time. 6 Because this is after -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- this is after 10:00. 9 : After 10:00. 10 : So, I wasn't here for this. 11 : So, you're saying there's 12 about three tiers where it wasn't finished off, 13 right? The K-tier. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : That's J-tier. 16 : That's J. 17 : And -. 18 : J-tier. K-tier. H. 19 : H-tier. 20 : And G. 21 : They weren't finished off? 22 : Hmm-mm. 23 : Okay. Do you know where? 24 Where were these round sheets kept in the SHU? 25 : There's been so many changes EFTA00062350 59 1 in here. 2 : On August 9th and 10th -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- do you recall where these 5 forms were? 6 : I believe this was by the 7 desk. 8 : On the officer's desk? 9 : I believe so. 10 : Where are the forms supposed 11 to be kept? 12 : When initially I was trained, 13 they were on the desk. As time went on, they 14 said they wanted them on the tiers. So, a 15 definitive answer on that, the instruction on 16 that has changed so much, like, you know, one - 17 - 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- one day, they was, like, 20 keep them on the ranges, another day you come 21 in or whatever, leave it right here so you 22 can't miss it, so you don't lose any papers. 23 : Why do they keep it on the 24 ranges? 25 : So, on the ranges, when you do EFTA00062351 60 1 do a round or whatever, you go and do a whole 2 round, when you get to the end of the range, 3 the paper is right there on the clipboard. So, 4 you could sign it, and finish the round, and 5 come out. 6 : Just to ensure that they're 7 actually -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- doing their rounds. Okay. 10 And how many people are needed to conduct 11 rounds? 12 : Only one person is needed to 13 conduct a round. 14 : Not two people? 15 : No. Two people are needed for 16 a count. 17 : And -. 18 : Because, you know, like, in 19 the -. Unless it's one -. 20 : Was that per policy, or 21 is that per practice? 22 : Per practice. When you do a 23 round, it's one person that opens the grill, 24 and one person goes down. Is that what you 25 mean? Because, you know, a count, one person EFTA00062352 61 1 goes down, comes out, and then, the next person 2 goes down and comes out. But for a round, only 3 one person. 4 : So, we were informed by 5 per policy, at least, counts and rounds are 6 conducted exactly the same way. The only thing 7 difference is that, in a count, you count 8 inmates. Is that not correct? 9 : Not the way I was taught, but 10 that's per - I'm going to be honest - that's 11 per practice. 12 : And is that even to date, 13 that's what they do? 14 : I haven't been in the SHU 15 since -- 16 : Okay. 17 -- so, I don't know what 18 they're doing up there. 19 : Oh, you haven't been in 20 SHU since this date? 21 : I've been in there after that 22 date, but I haven't been in the SHU in months. 23 : Okay. So, when you were, 24 after that date, though, they never went over, 25 like, how to conduct a round? And so, yeah, EFTA00062353 62 1 everything that we're saying is that a round 2 and a count is exactly the same. Two people 3 are needed. The only difference is, during a 4 count, you count. 5 : Hmm. No. I don't -- 6 : You've never heard of 7 that? 8 : I don't remember - after 9 that incident - I don't remember having that 10 discussion with anyone. 11 12 only one person -- 13 14 15 : So, your understanding is : That's my -- : -- per count -- : -- that's my understanding. 16 : -- per round. Okay. 17 : Okay. Any other questions on 18 the rounds? 19 : Yeah. So, as far as, do 20 you know if these rounds that were on this 21 round sheet, were they all conducted as it's 22 filled out? 23 24 25 : That, I don't know, because -- : You're not sure? : I'm not sure. EFTA00062354 63 1 : So, what is your 2 understanding, if the one person is only 3 filling out the count, is she filling it out on 4 behalf of - so, in this case, it was Noel - is 5 she filling it out on behalf of everybody in 6 the SHU, or is she only saying that she 7 conducted the round? 8 : I'm going to assume that she 9 was filling it out for everybody that was 10 working. Like, so, if she did a round, and 11 did a round, she just filled it out, 12 in that case. I learned my lesson from that, 13 so I only signed when I did it. 14 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. For 15 that point forward, correct? 16 : Hell no. I knew that, learned 17 that before it. 18 : All right. 19 : So, you only would fill it 20 out. So, you're not, obviously, on here. But 21 is she filling it out for both you and 22 , as well? 23 : I'm going to assume, maybe. 24 : Okay. 25 : But I don't know what her EFTA00062355 64 1 thought process is with this. 2 : So, how it mentioned 3 there that, you know, the video would be 4 reviewed. That video has been reviewed, in 5 detail. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Do you believe that all 8 these rounds were conducted on that date? 9 : I believe the vast majority of 10 them should have been. Now, were all of them? 11 Because I know for a fact, me personally, I 12 wasn't the one to do every -- 13 : So, you 14 : -- single round. 15 : -- so, you weren't the 16 one conducting the round, but you can't say if 17 the other people were? 18 : I can't -- 19 : You can only -. 20 : I can't say that. 21 : All right. Do you 22 believe all those rounds were conducted? 23 : I believe, I definitely 24 believe this - what is this? L and M, and I'm 25 just confused as to the rest. EFTA00062356 65 1 : Because again -- 2 : But -- 3 : -- we have -. Like, our 4 investigation has showed that that was all pre- 5 filled out. 6 : So, yeah. And that -. Wait a 7 minute. 8 : And I don't know why she 9 would pre-fill out some of them, but not the 10 rest. 11 : I see. I see why. Yeah. 12 : Explain. 13 : Yeah. Because of the times. 14 01:02, 33:34. 03 to 04. And then, then you 15 flip the page, it's the same thing. It's just 16 a minute difference. I see why. 17 : So, now that you're 18 looking at it, do you believe that those are 19 accurate? 20 : This stuff. It's pre-filled. 21 : It's pre—filled? These 22 are pre-filled? 23 : That - and yeah - it's a good 24 possibility that's pre-filled. 25 : And what do you know EFTA00062357 66 1 about -. 2 : I can't say that that's for 3 sure what she did. 4 : But by reviewing it -- 5 : I could see where -- 6 : -- from your knowledge -. 7 : I could see where that 8 assumption would come from. 9 : But from your knowledge 10 and experience, by looking at the way that 11 that's filled out, you would say that that's 12 pre-filled? 13 : Yes. Uh-huh. It's a 14 possibility. 15 : And have you ever pre- 16 filled out round sheets? 17 18 19 20 : No. : Do people -- : Not to my knowledge. : -- do people in general 21 fill out round sheets, and they fill them out, 22 pre-fill them? 23 : I'm sure they don't now. 24 : But did they at the time, 25 though? EFTA00062358 67 1 : At the time, usually, I 2 stopped messing with this after my first 3 incident, and dealing with this round sheet. 4 So, if I do a round, I fill it out. If I 5 wasn't the one that did it, I don't sign it. 6 : Yeah, yeah. So, what I'm 7 talking about, from August, basically 10th, 8 from the time he was found, previous to that, 9 would you pre-populate round sheets? 10 : No, I didn't pre-populate. 11 : Okay. 12 : Because I learned something 13 before that time, to -- 14 • 15 before? 16 • : Oh, what did you learn : Because that was a problem, 17 with people doing that before, and nobody 18 wanting to sign round sheets, for what reason 19 or whatever. So, I was, like, okay, if I did 20 it, sign it; if I didn't do it, not sign it. 21 That's how I learned my lesson. That's why my 22 name is not on this. 23 : Okay. So, your name 24 wasn't specifically on that round sheet because 25 you're, like, I'm not signing it, and getting EFTA00062359 68 1 jammed up for it? 2 : If I'm not getting jammed up, 3 if I did it, I sign it; if I didn't do it, and 4 you did it, because I won't sign for anybody 5 else. 6 : I gotcha. So, she was 7 signing for everybody else, but you wouldn't 8 sign for everybody else. 9 : Yeah. I didn't even -. I 10 didn't touch this paper at all that night. 11 : Okay. But previous to 12 that, would you have touched the papers? 13 : Previous to that, I probably 14 would have done rounds. But I wouldn't have 15 pre-populated the whole thing, like that. 16 : Would you ever pre- 17 populate any part of it? 18 : No. I don't think I pre- 19 populate. I don't remember a time that I did 20 pre-populate a thing or whatever. Now, what I 21 will say, because I know it's common or 22 whatever, in the beginning, I probably had 23 something pre-prepped for the count, and that 24 messed up or whatever. 25 : So, you would pre-prep EFTA00062360 69 10 11 1 the count. Not a round. 2 : I pre-prepped the count slip 3 or whatever. I pre-prepped it. 4 : Okay. So, you pre- 5 prepped the count slips, but not the round 6 sheets. 7 : I didn't do this. 8 : Okay. 9 : No. : Fair enough. And that's a lesson learned. 12 So, I learned my lesson -- 13 : Sure. 14 -- from that. 15 : Fair enough. Okay. 16 : Okay. And when you said you 17 pre-prepped the count, are you talking about 18 the night of August 9th? 19 : 4:00 p.m. 20 : The 4:00 p.m. count. That 21 was pre-prepped? 22 : Mm-hmm. I pre-prepped it 23 because of my -. There was so much going on, 24 everybody's leaving, some people coming in, and 25 stuff like that. I'm, like, okay, count time EFTA00062361 70 1 or whatever you -. I wrote it out. I don't 2 remember if I put a number in there or not yet, 3 or whatever. And then, the count was supposed 4 to take place. So, I pre-wrote it or whatever. 5 And then, we just kept working. But there was 6 a lot going on that day. So. 7 : Perfect. So, going to 8 that paragraph, and then 9 : Okay. 10 : -- you can clarify it. 11 : Yeah. So -. 12 : "When asked about the count 13 number in the SHU, for the -." 14 : Finish the paragraph, 15 too. Don't -. 16 : Yeah. "When asked about the 17 count number in the SHU, for the date, and the 18 number matching the MCC master number, 19 stated, `This would be a mistake on my part.' 20 He probably just used the numbers off the 21 master sheet, and that there was probably 22 signing off, down in response to pressure, and 23 having the count cleared." 24 : So, was this what you're 25 referring to? EFTA00062362 71 1 2 3 saying that -. 4 Mm-hmm. : All right. So, you're : Because you will get pressured 5 to hurry up and finish the count, even though 6 the job to work in the SHU, the crew is 7 supposed to be four. Very rarely, you're going 8 to have four. You're asked to do the job with 9 four people, with sometimes three, and 10 sometimes two. 11 : Right. 12 : So, you're going to Your 13 phone is ringing, you're getting pressured, 14 you're getting supervisors coming at you. So, 15 if you don't have a way, you're going to find a 16 way. 17 : But that's what the 18 master sheet that you refer to? 19 : The El. 20 : Oh, did you have access 21 to the El? 22 : I don't think I had access to 23 the El at that time. 24 : So, how -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062363 72 1 : -- if you say that would 2 have been during this interview, then -- 3 : Like, because I don't think I 4 had access to the El at that time. I think I 5 had -. It's another roster that we have in the 6 SHU. Like, not a running board. What is the 7 damn thing? I ain't been in there in a while. 8 SHU located. We have a SHU locater. And in 9 that or whatever, when people move, you change 10 it on that paper or whatever. Like, now - if 11 you've been up there - there's a board up there 12 now. 13 : Okay. 14 : You know? So, when you - on 15 that locater or whatever, that's probably what 16 I used because I don't believe I had access to 17 this at that time. 18 : All right. So, you 19 probably -- 20 : Because I wasn't working 21 control at that time. 22 : -- so, at the time, you 23 used the SHU locator, and the amount of inmates 24 that were listed on the SHU locater, to fill 25 out the 4:00 p.m. count sheet? EFTA00062364 73 1 : Yeah. Because, like, when 2 you're up there or whatever, like, the day 3 shift, they got to keep that SHU locater right 4 for the most part. You know what I'm saying? 5 You can't really screw that up. 6 : Okay. 7 : So, I was, like, okay. Boom. 8 And I - but like I said - I don't remember 9 writing a number in there or whatever, but if I 10 did, I did. That's my mistake. I own that. 11 : But you do remember that 12 you pre-populated it, though? 13 : I do remember that. 14 : Because it's -. 15 : Like, I know I wrote my name, 16 and then I wrote the date, and stuff like that, 17 or whatever. 18 : Let's take a look. I'm 19 showing you the El. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : And the count sheets for 22 Is this for the 4:00 p.m. count on August 9th? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Can you - this is the El on 25 the front, right? EFTA00062365 74 1 : Yeah. So, this is the 4:00 2 p.m. count, because this is printed out on 3 15:41. 4 : Take a look at the back, for 5 your CV, at the count slip that you - for that. 6 Keep going. Is it there? 7 : Just highlight it, so 8 that we can All right. So, ZA. That's the 9 SHU. Correct? 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : And it shows 75? 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : And then, done at 4:00 14 p.m. Who is listed on here? 15 -: and Noel. 16 : All right. So, that's 17 yourself, correct? And then, you say you're the 18 one who filled that out right? 19 : Yeah. 20 : Is that your handwriting? 21 : Yeah. It looks like mine. 22 : All right. Cool. 23 : The date? 24 : Yeah, but I didn't -. But I 25 didn't put the -. I don't recall putting the EFTA00062366 75 1 number in here. I know I put the date and the 2 time, and then, I signed down here. 3 : Does that number look 4 like it was you? 5 : It looks like it -- 6 : Okay. 7 : -- but I don't recall doing 8 it. 9 : Okay. 10 : I don't. I do not recall 11 doing that. 12 : Do you know if you 13 conducted the count at 4:00 p.m.? 14 : No. 15 : So, does that mean you 16 did not conduct the 4:00 p.m. count? 17 : I did not. Because, like, I 18 was -. That's why I'm at the bottom. I was, 19 like, I filled it out or whatever. All right. 20 We going to do this. We going to do that. And 21 I was running, too. I was ripping and running 22 or not. I thought that they did. So. 23 : All right. But you 24 didn't conduct the 4:00 p.m. count? 25 : No. EFTA00062367 76 1 2 did, though? 3 : You thought that they : I thought that they did. 4 : Do you know if they did? 5 : I think they did that, but I 6 don't know for sure right now. No. 7 : You're not sure? 8 : It's been too long. 9 : You didn't. 10 : Yeah. 11 : You signed it. 12 : I didn't. 13 : But you don't know if -. 14 All right. So, now you can go into those 15 questions. 16 : So. 17 : How many people are needed to 18 do the count? 19 : At least two. 20 : At least two? 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : And you said that you don't 23 know if they did, but since you 24 : Yeah. I was -- 25 : -- signed it, it -- EFTA00062368 77 1 : -- it was an assumption. So, 2 that was my fault. So, I take that. 3 : Okay. So, technically, it 4 should have been you and whoever else -- 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : -- signed off on it, should 7 have done 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- but you don't recall doing 10 the count? 11 : Hmm-mm. 12 : No, not to recall. He 13 said he did not do the recall. 14 : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. 16 : He just said 17 : That he did not. 18 : -- he doesn't know if the 19 other two did. 20 : Okay. Now, do you know if 21 that number was accurate? 22 : If - I'm going to find out 23 now. I'm sorry. 24 : Yeah. No problem. 25 : So, that number was accurate EFTA00062369 78 1 there. So, if the base count was 76, that's 2 because Epstein was at his legal visit. 3 : Okay. I'm going to -. Let's 4 start off with the 4:00 p.m. count. 5 : (Indiscernible 6 *00:48:03). This stuff. That's all. All 7 there. 8 : Okay. I'm going to show you 9 a memo. It's an email from 10 to , and it's regarding to a shot. 11 Right before inmate, hmm, Leonardo Fernandez, 12 do you recall Fernandez - inmate Fernandez - 13 being in the SHU that day? 14 : I don't even know who that is. 15 : He was an inmate in the SHU. 16 And if you can read the -. 17 : You can just it for him. 18 You don't have to ask. 19 : Yeah. Well, yeah. This is 20 filled out by It's in regards to 21 Leonardo Fernandez. The incident date is 22 8/9/2019. It's at 1:40 p.m. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : "On August 9th, 2019, at 25 approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS , while EFTA00062370 79 1 assigned as a Special Housing Unit officer, I 2 proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting 3 room. As I walked towards the door, I observed 4 through the visiting room door, inmate 5 Fernandez, register number 86824-054, attempt 6 to grab an unknown item from his visitor. Once 7 inmate Fernandez reached to grab the item, I 8 called the door, and called for a lieutenant. 9 Once I was able to enter the visiting room, I 10 gave inmate Fernandez a direct order to walk 11 the visiting room, walk off the visiting room, 12 to conduct a visual search. Inmate Fernandez 13 complied, and a visual search was conducted. 14 The operations lieutenant was contacted, and 15 inmate Fernandez was removed from the unit." 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : Now, this is the lieutenant 18 logs for that day. This is for August 9th. 19 This is day watch. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : The lieutenant log states, 22 "Inmate Fernandez, 86824054, on dry cell with 23 staff watch in R&D." If you look down here, 24 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on dry 25 cell. EFTA00062371 80 1 : Mm-hmm. And wait, the time 2 for this one was -? 3 : That just states the daily 4 sensitive information. So, this is 5 : Okay. 6 : -- this is at 3:15 p.m. So, 7 I'm going to show you the midnight sheet count. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : From August 10th. This is 10 August 10th. Inmate Fernandez is - again - it 11 states there. If you notice, 12:35 a.m., it 12 was corrected. Inmate Fernandez was removed 13 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., and was never keyed 14 out of the SHU. 15 : Show him the quarterly 16 assignment roster. 17 18 19 Here it is. 20 Yeah. That's all in order. : So, what happened was, when 21 the midnight lieutenant, , came 22 on -- 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : -- she realized there was a - 25 - EFTA00062372 81 1 2 3 4 : : : : A discrepancy. -- a discrepancy. Mm-hmm. So, she went in, she checked 5 it, and she corrected it at 12:35. If you 6 paid, if you look at the inmate history, of the 7 quarters for Fernandez, he was assigned to the 8 SHU 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- from August 2nd, at 11 : 14:33. 12 : -- 14:33. And he was keyed 13 out on -- 14 : On the 10th. 15 : -- August 10th. At 12:35 16 a.m. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Now, if you Well, if he 19 was out of the SHU. Now, the day started off 20 with 77 inmates. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : And let's remember, don't 23 -- 24 : So, that should have been 74. 25 : -- don't look at this. EFTA00062373 82 1 2 3 4 : : : Yeah. : Look at this. Okay. So, it should have been 74. 5 : So, now, you understand that 6 it was 74 inmates. 7 : Yes. 8 : Is that count accurate for 9 4:00 p.m.? 10 : No. 11 : So, was the count 12 conducted? 13 : No. 14 : No? 15 : No. 16 : Sorry, I didn't hear what 17 you -. Did you say -? 18 : No. 19 : No. All right. So, do 20 you know now that the count was not conducted? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. Great. 23 : Can you - same thing as 24 before - can you initial these documents to say 25 that these are the ones we showed you. EFTA00062374 83 1 : What's today's date again? 2 Seventh? 3 : 8/5. 4 : 8/5. 5 : So, like you said, you 6 just took the number off the master list and 7 filled that in? 8 : Yeah. 9 : So. 10 : Yeah. 11 : And when you say master 12 list, I mean actually, you called it something 13 different. 14 : The locator. 15 : The inmate locator. 16 Okay. 17 : This one, too. 18 : So, does that refresh 19 your memory now, though -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 -- that they didn't 22 provide you a number, you just filled that in 23 off of that? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : Yes? EFTA00062375 84 1 2 3 : Yes. : Good. Thank you. : This is the memo. Could you 4 just initial and date this for me? Do you have 5 anything else on that? 6 : No. 7 : On that count. Sorry. This 8 is the 5:00 p.m. count. Just initial the 9 Initial and date the 5:00 p.m. count here. 10 : 4:00 p.m. 11 : I mean 4:00 p.m. I keep 12 reading the bottom. 13 : It's all good. 14 : Move on? 15 : Yup. 16 : All right. was asked 17 several questions about Epstein, and 18 specifically if guard advised about 19 Epstein needing a cell mate, to which 20 responded, `No.'" Do you -? 21 : Read that again. 22 . was asked several 23 questions about Epstein, and specifically, if 24 guard advised about Epstein needing a 25 cell mate, to which responded, `No.'" EFTA00062376 85 1 : Yeah. I didn't get that. 2 Okay. I thought you said I said that Epstein 3 didn't need 4 : No. 5 -- an inmate. Yeah. I'm, 6 like, nah, that -. I didn't have a I don't 7 remember having a conversation with 8 about him telling me that Epstein needed a cell 9 mate or anything like that. No. 10 : What -? 11 : But he was supposed to have a 12 cell mate. 13 : He was supposed to have a 14 cell mate? 15 : He had a cell mate. 16 : So, why was he supposed to 17 have a cell mate? 18 : Well, no, I'm saying he had a 19 cell mate. It was the little, short dude. 20 That was his cell mate. I think his cell mate 21 got released that day. 22 : How do you know the cell mate 23 got released that day? 24 : Oh, just word of mouth, 25 because, like, I'm trying to remember what EFTA00062377 86 1 happened because, like, because I remember, 2 when I put him in the cell, I was, like, where 3 the hell is your fucking cell mate at? 4 : So, you actually -. When 5 you put Epstein back from the shower, you mean? 6 : Yeah. 7 : You asked him where his - 8 9 : I asked where, you know, where 10 is your cellee? Or whatever. So, he said, 11 like, he got released. So, I don't -. Like, I 12 don't know if he actually did get released or 13 not, or whatever, but that was the question, 14 like, but we don't have anybody else to put him 15 with. I don't remember who I spoke to that 16 night or whatever. But I asked that question, 17 like, there's no cell mate in there with this 18 guy. 19 : So, you asked someone? 20 : I asked someone, but who it 21 was, I don't remember who it was. 22 : Would it have been a 23 lieutenant? 24 : It would have been a 25 lieutenant. But my question -. But, like, EFTA00062378 87 1 with that, he's supposed to have. But you 2 can't put him with anybody. 3 : No, but you know 4 : So, some -. 5 : -- you notified a 6 lieutenant? 7 : Yeah. So, somebody has to 8 tell me who they want me to put in there with 9 him. Because if you tell me to put somebody in 10 there, and that person beats him up. 11 : All right. So, if you 12 put him in at, you said, 9:30. Correct? Was 13 that when you're talking about? 14 : Yeah. When I - yeah - after 15 the shower. After he had his little phone call 16 and I put him back or whatever. Yeah, I asked, 17 like, does anybody want me to put him in there 18 with -. 19 : So, you're acting like 20 you're talking on the phone. So, did you get 21 on the phone with someone? 22 : Yeah. I got on the phone with 23 someone, and I, like, who it was at that time, 24 I don't remember. 25 : So, this, can you check the EFTA00062379 88 I schedule -- 2 : Mm-hmm. 3 : -- schedule, to - on the 4 roster. 5 : This is all -- 6 : And I'm talking about 7 what time 8 : (Indiscernible *00:55:12). 9 : -- it would be, because I 10 mean, I think there's a shift change -- 11 : Yeah. There's a shift change 12 -- 13 : -- back then, at 10:00 -- 14 : -- and then -- 15 : -- 10:00 p.m. is when 16 there's that shift change. 17 : The lieutenant shift changes. 18 I don't even know what time it was. 19 (Indiscernible *00:55:21) 20 : They show it was two 21 hours prior to 22 : (Indiscernible *00:55:23). 23 : -- to what the schedule 24 said back then. So, the Ops Lieutenant would 25 have been relieved at 10:00 p.m., and a new Ops EFTA00062380 89 1 2 3 4 Lieutenant would have come back. So, if that rings a bell. : Yeah. • I think it would have 5 been either 6 : Because I know -- 7 : -- it would have -. 8 : -- well, I know this. I know 9 it wasn't -- 10 : Here. 11 : I know I didn't speak to 12 Lieutenant 13 : All right. So, this is 14 : You know you didn't speak 15 to So, this would -- 16 no, this is -. 17 • this was the 10th. 18 So, replaced . So, it would 19 have been either - I'm assuming - it would have 20 been either or Now, what 21 : So, it had to -- 22 : -- what I'm showing you 23 right now is the daily assignment roster for 24 Saturday, August 10th, where it says that 25 was the morning watch -- EFTA00062381 90 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- officer who would have 3 come in the night before, at 10:00 p.m., and 4 relieved 5 : Over here, actually, it 6 states, there's two possible lieutenants, 7 right? There's -- 8 9 • was the acting -- 10 -- who was that, until 10:00 11 p.m.? 12 : -- Activities until 10:00 13 p.m. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And then, there was 16 -: 17 : That was there from 18 : Until midnight. 19 -- yeah, until midnight. So, 20 this conversation, when you went to Epstein's 21 cell, around what time do you think? You - 22 based on that memo - you took him out around 23 9:30. 24 : Put him in -- 25 : Put him in. EFTA00062382 91 1 : -- at 9:30. 2 : Put him. You took him out of 3 the -- 4 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 5 : -- the showers. 6 : The showers. 7 : And then, brought him over to 8 the cell. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : So, let's say 9:30 onwards, 11 who would you have (Indiscernible *00:56:29)? 12 : Well, no, no, no. Let's 13 clarify that, though. Is it before the shower, 14 when he was brought back to the SHU, or was it 15 after the shower that you noticed that there 16 wasn't a -- 17 : After the shower. 18 : -- so, it was definitely 19 after the shower, and after the phone call? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Okay. And that's when 22 you (Indiscernible *00:56:43) -. 23 : And that's - and it's locking 24 time, so now, at that time, once you put him 25 back, there is no more movement. EFTA00062383 92 1 : Okay. So, you 2 specifically recall -- 3 : Asking. 4 : -- and that you asked 5 someone? 6 : I asked someone. 7 : And do you recall that it 8 was a lieutenant? 9 : Yeah. It had to be. Because 10 I called the lieutenant's office. 11 : You called. So, you know 12 that you called the lieutenant's office and 13 said 14 : Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, this -- 15 : -- he doesn't have a cell 16 mate? 17 : -- there's no cell mate here. 18 What do you want me to do? Or whatever. What 19 actually happened after that, I don't even 20 remember because I never even gave it a second 21 thought, after the fact. 22 : All right. So, after you 23 called, though, do you remember how that person 24 responded? 25 : Nah. I never even thought EFTA00062384 93 1 2 3 4 about it again. until now. Now, remember. I never thought about it again I'm trying to rack my brain to : Do you remember if it was 5 a man or a woman? 6 : I believe it was a man. But I 7 -- 8 : You believe it was a man. 9 : I believe it was a man, but 10 I don't remember. I really don't. 11 : Okay. Because if it was 12 a man, it would have had to been 13 : It would have been 14 : Right? 15 : Yeah. It would have been 16 17 : And you know it wasn't -- 18 : Because -- 19 20 : -- but I also know, too, that 21 when - if I'm working internally, and then, 22 like, I have to speak to a lieutenant, 23 sometimes the lieutenant is busy. I may pick 24 up the phone, and I'm not a lieutenant. 25 : Okay. So, it doesn't EFTA00062385 94 1 necessarily have to be a lieutenant in the 2 lieutenant's office. 3 : Not all the time, because 4 things happen. Sometimes the lieutenant may 5 call you, hey, I need you to go to this unit, 6 do X, Y, and Z. Now they're on the phone or 7 whatever. Grab that phone for me real quick. 8 It happens, but you know, you just relay the 9 messages and what have you. 10 : Okay. All right. 11 : And you said that could be 12 the internal? 13 : It could be. Is it? I don't 14 know. But I'm just saying, I know that I asked 15 that question. Who I did ask that question to, 16 I don't know at this time. 17 : Okay. 18 : I don't remember. 19 : So, just walk us through 20 what questions you asked and what response were 21 you given. 22 : Yeah. I know I said, hey, 23 this dude ain't got no cellee. I did say that. 24 This dude ain't got no cellee or whatever. And 25 after that, what actual response I got, I don't EFTA00062386 95 1 know, because I was so busy that day, that I'm 2 just, like 3 : This would have been -- 4 : I got enough. 5 -- this would have been 6 at the very end of your shift? 7 : This would have been at the 8 very end of my shift. 9 : So, would it have been 10 before you went up and checked on him, at that 11 -- 12 : That would have been -- 13 : -- next round? 14 -- yeah, that would have been 15 -- 16 : Or after? 17 : -- that would have been 18 before, and then, I checked on him again, 19 before I left. So, like, when I noticed it, 20 put him in, and I noticed that, made the phone 21 call. Then, before I leave, I check on him 22 again, and tell 23 24 25 : Okay. -- hey, watch this guy. : Okay. Did you - after EFTA00062387 96 1 you made the phone call, or when, first of all, 2 the phone call, do you remember the response 3 that you were given? When you said -- 4 : I don't know. 5 -- why doesn't this guy 6 have a cellee? Did you -? 7 : I don't remember. 8 : Did they say that they 9 would look into it, that they would check on 10 it? 11 : Probably, but I really don't 12 remember because I'm, like, after you get 13 frustrated, all right, I got this to do, I got 14 that to do, and then, you just -. 15 : Okay. Did you notify 16 Noel and that he doesn't have a cell 17 mate? 18 : Well, they knew, but -- 19 : They knew he didn't have 20 a cell mate? 21 : -- yeah, because they were up 22 there -- 23 24 25 : They know? -- yeah. : And did they know that he EFTA00062388 97 1 was required to have a cell mate? 2 : Required. I don't know if 3 they knew that he was required to have a cell 4 mate. That, I don't know. 5 : But everybody that comes 6 off -. He was in suicide watch, previously. 7 Correct? 8 : Right. 9 : And every inmate that 10 comes off of suicide watch -- 11 : Suicide watch. Should have a 12 cell mate. 13 : So, based upon that, they 14 knew he was required to have a cell mate. 15 Correct? 16 : Yeah, based off of that, they 17 would know. 18 : Okay. And was that a 19 discussion that you had with anyone in there, 20 that day, about, hey, where is his cell mate? 21 : I think we did ask that 22 question amongst ourselves, too, like, this 23 dude is supposed to have a cell mate. I think 24 we did. 25 : Is this before or after? EFTA00062389 98 1 After -- 2 : Shower? 3 : -- yeah, after the shower. 4 That this conversation between you, 5 : This was after the shower. 6 : -- took place. 7 : Well, after the shower is 8 when you called, but what you're saying is 9 that, at - or are you saying that, after the 10 shower, after the phone call 11 : Right. 12 : -- so, not after the 13 shower, but after the phone call in the shower, 14 is that when you had the conversation with Noel 15 and 16 : Yeah. 17 : So, you think at that 18 point -- 19 : Because that's when I, like, 20 oh, shit, the dude ain't got no cell mate. 21 : And you would have -- 22 : Sorry. Excuse my language. 23 and you would have 24 conversed, saying, like, hey, he doesn't have a 25 cell mate right now? EFTA00062390 99 1 : Yeah. So, that's definitely 2 the discussion that -. That would have 3 happened after I took him out of the shower and 4 put him in his cell, and realized there was no 5 cell mate in there. That would have been the 6 discussion afterwards. 7 : And you do remember 8 talking with both and Noel, saying he 9 doesn't have a cell mate? 10 : Yup. Briefly, though. There 11 wasn't, like, a long, drawn-out 12 : Sure. Do you remember 13 what their responses were? 14 : I think it was just something, 15 like, yeah, we're just telling each other 16 what's going on. And continue business. 17 : Was there anything talked 18 about, like, where is he? 19 : Yeah, and that's when we found 20 out, like, this guy must be released or 21 whatever. So, there was a conversation about 22 that. But who actually said, oh, this dude got 23 released, or whatever, I don't remember. 24 : Okay. 25 : Everything was moving so fast. EFTA00062391 100 1 And it was so long ago now. 2 : Was there any 3 conversation about, like, hey, we need to 4 notify somebody to get him a cell mate? 5 : Probably was, but I know I 6 made a phone call to someone, like, hey, what 7 do you want me to do with this guy? He ain't 8 got no cellee. I know I made a phone call to 9 someone. Who it was, at this point, I don't 10 remember. 11 : And that -. 12 : I wish they would have asked 13 me that question earlier because I probably 14 would have remembered then. 15 : Right. So, and that's, 16 like, under oath, this is, like, if you were on 17 the stand, literally in front of a judge -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- you swear under oath 20 that you made a phone call and notified 21 someone? 22 : I notified someone. Who it 23 was, I don't know. 24 : Okay. So, if we checked 25 the, like, the lines and the recordings, we'll EFTA00062392 101 1 be able to find -- 2 : You should be able to find 3 that, yes. 4 -- okay. And then, 5 again, that would be, like, a penalty and 6 perjury of law, like, you know 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : -- you could get - you 9 can literally get charged if you're lying to us 10 because we're federal agents and you're under 11 oath. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : So, you're positive about 14 that statement, that you called someone and 15 notified them around 9:30 at night? 16 : I believe so. But if 17 Because I spoke to people about this. I know I 18 spoke to people about this. 19 : So, yeah. Just remember, 20 any -. We're just going to shut up for a 21 second, and let you think about who did you 22 speak with and what conversations were had. 23 What was stated? 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : From the beginning of EFTA00062393 102 1 that day. So, here, I'm going to show you a 2 document, and this is - again - that 3 lieutenant's log, saying that, at 8:38 a.m., 4 Reyes was pre-removed. And do you know that, 5 when you're pre-removed, that means you're 6 released from the MCC. Correct? 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Do you know that? 9 : That, well, yeah. It's a 10 So, could I see that? 11 : Yeah. 12 : So. 13 : And here is the 38 to go 14 along with that, and the daily log. 15 : Okay. 16 : Which shows that he was 17 pre-removed at 8:38. 18 : A.m. 19 : A.m. 20 : Okay. 21 : So, he left. He left the 22 SHU, I'm assuming, before then. That's when he 23 was keyed out. 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : By R&D. Correct? EFTA00062394 103 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : And then, is there -. 3 Did we -? No, we didn't print out any of those 4 other documents. So, he was gone from the MCC 5 by 8:00, at least 8:30 a.m. 6 : Okay. 7 : So, you started at 2:00 8 p.m. What conversations can you remember that 9 you had, regarding Reyes being gone from the 10 institution? 11 : I don't. I remember finding 12 out that Reyes was gone when I put Epstein back 13 in his cell. That's when I remember that he 14 was gone. 15 : So, you -. 16 : I mean, that's when I realized 17 that he was gone because I'm, like, there's 18 supposed to be two people in here 19 : So, prior to that time, 20 you didn't know, at all, that Reyes was gone? 21 : Yeah, because I'm thinking 22 about it to myself, as we walk -. 23 : Sorry. He's giving me 24 documents to show you what happened to him. 25 So, this is from the Marshal Service. I don't EFTA00062395 104 1 believe that you would have received this 2 email, but I'm just showing you. 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : You can say if you 5 remember it. This is -. Did you ever see one 6 of these? This is a prisoner's schedule. 7 : No. 8 : The Marshal Service. So, 9 the Reyes right here, it shows that he was 10 gone, transferred within - per the judge - from 11 the MCC to GO. Do you know what GEO is? 12 : I've heard that term before, 13 but -. 14 : So, GEO is a -- 15 : Contract. 16 : -- contract -- 17 : Yeah. (Indiscernible 18 *01:04:23). 19 : -- which was going around 20 here. 21 : Okay. 22 : This would have been sent 23 to all these people in custody, from R&D, as 24 well as to all the lieutenants. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062396 105 1 : So, based upon this, they 2 would have generated what's called, I think, a 3 call out list. Do you know that? 4 : I know what a call out list 5 is. Yes. 6 : And then, we're of the 7 understanding, based upon this information, 8 next to Reyes name would have been WAB. Do you 9 know what that means? 10 : Yes. 11 : What does that mean? 12 : Like, I mean, offhand, I don't 13 know what the actual acronym means, but it does 14 mean that somebody is getting removed from the 15 building, whether they're being released, sent 16 to another institution, what have you. 17 : All right. So, that 18 would have It means, "With All Belongings." 19 And it means that they take all their stuff 20 because they're leaving. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : Do you remember, that 23 date, seeing that call out list? Would that be 24 maintained in the SHU for the (Indiscernible 25 *01:05:06)? EFTA00062397 106 1 : I don't remember seeing that 2 call out list. I do not. 3 : And in general, would the 4 call out list be maintained in the SHU, though? 5 : No. The call out list is 6 basically before R&D leaves for the night. 7 They print out the call out sheets for the next 8 day, and over the course of the morning shift, 9 internal, when they give out the daily rosters, 10 will give out the call out sheets to every 11 unit. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : For the following day. For 14 the next morning. 15 : And then, is that call 16 out list, though, like, for instance, the call 17 out list of the SHU, was that maintained in the 18 SHU at all, when they (Indiscernible 19 *01:05:34)? 20 : Yeah. Once you have it in the 21 SHU or whatever, usually, they'll have it on 22 the desk with the rest of the paperwork. So, 23 you know what you're looking at. If you've got 24 to get somebody ready. 25 : Okay. So -- EFTA00062398 107 1 : Yeah. 2 : -- so, is that something 3 that they keep in the SHU all day long? 4 : Yeah. Once you receive it. 5 All for the morning shift, because usually, 6 morning shift, depending on your internal, you 7 might get that paperwork probably about 3:00 or 8 something. You know, after you - as you're 9 conducting counts. So, you conduct counts, and 10 they come through and they hand you your roster 11 for the day. The call out sheets, the separate 12 rosters. 13 : And is that maintained, 14 though -- 15 : Yes. 16 : -- throughout the day? 17 So, that, like 18 : It's supposed to be. 19 : -- for instance -. Okay. 20 So, if somebody goes to court, you know, on 21 that list, it says this guy is court, it says 22 this guy is WAB, it says, you know, so that you 23 know where inmates are? 24 : Well, R&D will have the -. It 25 will be a court roster for R&D. And it's EFTA00062399 108 1 another -. 2 : Wouldn't that all be 3 listed on the call -- 4 : Yeah. 5 list, though? 6 : It would. Yeah, it would. 7 : So, point being is if, 8 like, if you're doing counts at 4:00 p.m., you 9 have that call list to be able to say, oh, 10 shit, this guy is at court, he's not back yet. 11 I need to find out where he is. Is that what 12 happens? 13 : Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what's 14 supposed to happen. Yes. 15 : So, the questions that 16 all of that was, do you remember seeing that 17 call out list on August 9, 2019? 18 : I don't remember seeing it. 19 : No? 20 : No. 21 : But would it have been 22 there? 23 : It should have been there, but 24 I don't remember seeing it. 25 : Okay. EFTA00062400 109 1 : Everybody waves differently. 2 So, I may put my paperwork on the clipboard. 3 Somebody else may like to have three stacks of 4 paper over here. 5 : Okay. But what you're 6 saying is that you did know, on August 9th, 7 that Reyes was gone, and he was Epstein's cell 8 mate, and Epstein was without a cell mate. But 9 you're saying you didn't know it until 9:30 10 p.m.? 11 : Yeah. 12 : And at that point, you 13 did call someone, in the lieutenant's office? 14 : Yeah. 15 : So, you definitely know 16 it was the lieutenant's office -- 17 18 19 I know. : -- that you called? : I called someone. So, like, 20 let me rephrase and put it like this. That I 21 noticed it. I had discussions with, you know, 22 (Indiscernible *01:07:29), I said something 23 about it to them, and I called someone. Who I 24 spoke to, I do not remember. But I know I 25 called someone. And it had to be somebody EFTA00062401 110 1 higher than me. Because I can't make that 2 decision. 3 : Sure. And you think it 4 was a man? You don't think it was 5 : I think it was 6 : Or -? 7 I'm pretty sure it was a 8 male. I think it was a man. But being that it 9 was so long ago, I can't remember exactly what 10 I said on a brief phone call -- 11 : Sure. 12 : -- you know -- 13 : I understand. Yeah. I 14 mean, we're -. Yeah -- 15 : I'm just being honest with 16 you. 17 : -- we're two years later. 18 I got you. 19 : You know? 20 : And so -. 21 : And honestly, I thought this 22 was over. So, I was, like -- 23 : Right. Yeah. No. This 24 is where -. That's why we're back, coming back 25 to people to try to, like -. Part of the EFTA00062402 111 1 reason why we're reading this to you is to, 2 one) make sure that you 3 : That it's accurate. 4 : -- it's accurate, but 5 also to refresh your memory. This is what you 6 stated to these people, is that accurate, and - 7 again - to fill in some of these blanks. Now, 8 we have a memo that was drafted on August 12th, 9 2019. Let's see if it was - it says United 10 States government, Federal Bureau of Prisons 11 memo. And it says, past information from 12 Special Housing Unit. It says, "On Friday, 13 August 9th, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., 14 I, SOS , passed on to oncoming staff 15 member, Officer , and present staff, SOS 16 and Officer , that inmate Reyes 17 was going WAB, and possibly may return, also 18 that inmate Epstein will be needing a cell mate 19 upon arrival from his attorney visit." Do you 20 know if -? 21 : I don't remember having that 22 conversation with 23 : Do you remember that that 24 conversation had, or do you believe that he's 25 lying to us? If he swore under oath that he EFTA00062403 112 1 definitely passed that information onto you -- 2 3 4 memo. 5 : You got a -- -- and he's got this : Mm-hrtun. 6 : That he also did. Do you 7 believe he's lying about it? 8 : If he did, you might want to 9 ask about that one because I do not 10 recall him speaking to me about this one. 11 : Okay. 12 : I don't necessarily want to 13 call anyone a liar, per se, but I don't 14 remember him speaking to me about this. So, 15 maybe he spoke to , and maybe I was 16 standing there, and he thought I heard him. 17 : Okay. 18 : But that's my assumption, but 19 I do not remember having this conversation with 20 him at all. 21 : All right. So, if he's 22 saying, you know, was standing there, I 23 relayed the information specifically to 24 saying, hey, what you call, it's WAB, Epstein 25 is going to need a new cell mate. You do not EFTA00062404 113 1 recall that conversation? 2 3 conversation. 4 I don't recall that Now, what is your opinion 5 of the fact that, if an inmate is WAB, that 6 means that he's not coming home 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- right? What is your 9 opinion of the fact that he said, possibly may 10 not return? Why would he say - if someone is 11 WAB - why would he say possibly may not return? 12 : I don't know. 13 : Because your 14 understanding was, if someone was WAB -- 15 16 17 18 : If it was WAB -- you're not -. : -- he's supposed to be gone. : He was gone. Correct? 19 : But - okay, so, with that -- 20 : So, if -. 21 : -- if he says possibly may 22 return or whatever, because this has happened, 23 usually, I've seen it before with other 24 inmates. You see somebody that says if they're 25 WAB, they're supposed to leave this date, their EFTA00062405 114 1 stuff is packed up or whatever, and then, 2 something happens, and then, they can't go -. 3 They can't leave. Like, but that's usually if 4 they're going to another institution or 5 something. Now, if this dude actually got 6 released or whatever, I don't see why - any 7 reason. Unless the judge put a hold on him. 8 : Well, he didn't get 9 released. Like I showed you. He got 10 transferred. 11 : Yeah. So, yeah. So, I don't 12 see, you know, like, unless the judge 13 miraculously put a hold on you or something 14 like that, I don't know why he said possibly. 15 : So, I guess my question 16 on that would be, then, if he's at least by 17 8:38 a.m., WAB, gone from the SHU, should 18 someone have 19 : Yes. 20 : -- replaced him 21 beforehand? 22 : Yes. Replaced him and, yeah, 23 somebody should have -. Like, because during 24 the day shift or whatever, this dude leaves, he 25 goes to WAB or whatever, and you know that it's EFTA00062406 115 1 Epstein is in the cell, because I'm assuming 2 with how it happened, I'm assuming he goes WAB, 3 Epstein goes to a legal visit, now your day is 4 going on and everything like that. And it's 5 just escaped everybody. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : That's what I'm thinking 8 happened. But yeah, he should have been 9 replaced during that shift. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : But if you don't have the 12 numbers, that's another question, that I'll 13 ask. If you don't have the numbers in the SHU, 14 if you have, like, an odd number, and you can't 15 put anybody with him. What are you going to 16 do? 17 : Or are you aware that 18 Epstein's cell mates were all vetted at the 19 highest level? 20 : No. 21 : So, in your opinion, if 22 you knew that Epstein was required to have a 23 cell mate, could have you just placed a cell 24 mate with him? 25 : No. I don't have that EFTA00062407 116 1 authority to do that. Because if I was to -- 2 3 authority? 4 : So, who has the : -- if I was to make that 5 decision, and something happened to him, now 6 I'm screwed. 7 : So, who should have 8 placed him with a cell mate? That's place 9 Epstein with a new cell mate. 10 : It would have been one of us 11 to probably put the inmate in that cell. But 12 that determination would either come from the 13 operations lieutenant, the SHU lieutenant, or 14 the captain. 15 : Okay. 16 : Or anybody above that. 17 : Sure. 18 : But that's where the decision 19 would come from. They'll probably just tell 20 me, like, hey, execute. 21 : So, in your opinion, 22 based upon the information that we have, with 23 him going WAB, should the activities, ops, or a 24 captain have been notified, and those people 25 should have ensured that Epstein was -? EFTA00062408 117 1 : Yes. Because if - like, all 2 right, after all the stuff that we've seen here 3 - if I was to, like, let's just say I was to 4 put somebody in that cell, and something 5 happened. Now I made the wrong decision, and 6 then, the next question is going to be, well, 7 why didn't you ask questions? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : So, I would not put somebody 10 in there without somebody giving me the green 11 light to do so. 12 : Now, if - was 13 the OIC back then? 14 15 16 17 : I think so. : All right. So -- : For the day shift. : -- so, is the 18 OIC. If him, the activities lieutenant, and 19 the ops lieutenant, all for that day shift are 20 saying, well, we didn't know if Reyes was going 21 to come back or not, so we thought it was 22 premature to place a new cell mate in there 23 with him. Is that a legit excuse, do you 24 think, or a reason, if the person is listed 25 with WAB next to their name? EFTA00062409 118 1 : Depending on how they looking 2 at it, like, because - like I said before - if 3 he's WAS and, like, maybe the bus got cancelled 4 or whatever, and then, somebody would have to 5 come back. If you're thinking about it that 6 way, then yes. But if he was gone at 8:00 7 something in the morning, then he ain't never 8 coming back. 9 : At 2:00 p.m., he's still 10 not back, wouldn't they know by then if that 11 was -- 12 : That's what I -- 13 : -- truly WAB? 14 : -- that's what I would think. 15 : Okay. But you do not 16 recall him specifically saying that to you? 17 : Hmm-mm. 18 : So, you believe, the 19 first time that you - you did know, on August 20 9th - but you believe the first time that you 21 knew was at 9:30 p.m. 22 : That's the first time I think 23 I knew, because it was too much running around. 24 I don't not remember this conversation at all. 25 : Okay. And that's EFTA00062410 119 1 because, once you got there, you were just 2 running? 3 : I was running, hopping and 4 popping the whole time. 5 : Okay. 6 : Pretty much. I'm sweating. 7 Everything. 8 : Okay. 9 : But we were all tired that 10 day. 11 : Okay. 12 : I know you didn't know until 13 9:30 p.m. When do you think would have been 14 the first time you should have caught up to the 15 fact that Reyes was not there? 16 : I was doing rounds, because in 17 my mind, because I'm thinking about it, like, 18 like how Epstein is the priority. So, if I'm 19 working out ranges, and I'm talking to inmates 20 here and there, and I had two other inmates on 21 that tier where Epstein was, that wanted to 22 play the suicide game, you know, as I walked 23 through there, or whatever, I know this is 24 Epstein's cell. I know Epstein is not here. 25 Even when you look in there, you just keep EFTA00062411 120 1 going. And then, you know, you just keep going 2 or whatever. So, like, it should have dawned 3 on me then, but I'm thinking about this guy 4 over here, that may have, you know, that had 5 the noose around him, and he wants to play that 6 game. And then, you got another inmate on 7 another tier, doing some other crazy nonsense. 8 There was just a lot of moving pieces that day. 9 So, even in my movement around or whatever, 10 like, it missed - it escaped it - it missed me. 11 : Yeah. And that was what 12 I was going to go to, after that, is the fact 13 that, would this have been the only - this 14 mandatory rounds must be conducted every 30 15 minutes on Epstein, as per God - would that 16 have been the only orange card that was up 17 there? Saying to make sure that Epstein is your 18 priority in the SHU right now? 19 : It shouldn't have been. Like, 20 I don't remember if there was anything on his 21 door, or anything like that, or whatever. But 22 I remember that. That, you know, that was per 23 God, obviously, that's a joke. 24 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25 : But I do remember, it was EFTA00062412 121 1 something else on a wall, at some point in 2 time, about, like, yeah, make sure you watch 3 this guy. So, I don't remember if it was a 4 memo or something, but it was something else. 5 But I definitely remember that one. If I'm not 6 mistaken, there was more than one copy of that 7 thing. 8 : Okay. So, but what I'm 9 asking, was there anybody, any other inmate 10 names, such as this, or was inmate your 11 priority when you were in the SHU? 12 : No. No. I don't remember any 13 of the inmates' name. I just remember that. 14 : So, this is the one guy 15 that's up on the desk, on the officer's 16 station, saying, making sure you're checking on 17 him -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- on Epstein. So, that 20 was what I was going to get at. If these 21 rounds were actually conducted on L-tier, 22 through that whole time, that that cell is 23 empty 24 : Mm-hmm. 25 : -- how did people not EFTA00062413 122 1 notice Epstein's cell mate is gone? 2 3 here 4 : Right. And now, this right : And I'm not talking about 5 just your watch. So, night watch 6 : Yeah. 7 : -- as well as day watch. 8 : Yeah. So, day watch, oh, no, 9 this is morning watch. So, okay. 10 : Yeah. This is day watch. 11 : Yeah. So, day watch. Like, 12 obviously, through here, they got rid of him. 13 And, like, that, there should have been 14 something done there. 15 : Yeah. I mean, he's 16 claiming, he's the guy who was apparently, you 17 know, is apparently signing this, I 18 believe, for all these. He's claiming, yeah, I 19 passed on the information, he's gone, he's 20 going to need a new cell mate, if he, in fact, 21 doesn't come back. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : So, all right, he's 24 swearing under oath that, and he wrote a memo, 25 as well. And he swore a couple times to that. EFTA00062414 123 1 As far as -- 2 : Okay. So, now I got to write 3 a memo, right? 4 : -- so, well, that's what 5 - you don't have to write a memo, we're talking 6 to you. So, as far as this goes, the question 7 would be: how are anybody that's working - so, 8 it's you -- 9 -: 10 : -- did start 11 then? 12 : I think comes in at 13 4:00. 14 : So, it's at -. Okay. So 15 -- 16 : He's already here. 17 : -- you four 18 : He's on (Indiscernible 19 *01:17:22). 20 • -- it said four. It's 21 you, , and Noel. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : How was it not noticed - 24 if these rounds on this round sheet were 25 conducted - how was it not noticed, even prior EFTA00062415 124 1 to 9:30, if you're saying you noticed at 9:30, 2 that that cell was empty? If this guy is your 3 number one priority. 4 : Because I was looking for 5 Epstein. Yeah, I was just, like, my mind, and 6 on that specific cell, it was him. 7 : Right. 8 : And I knew he was at a legal 9 visit. 10 : Yeah, yeah. So, and I 11 get it, that you said you did a round on 12 Epstein when he came back. But if rounds are 13 being conducted in entire SHU -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- wouldn't people 16 notice, hey, it's claiming that one, two, 17 three, four, you know, however many there are 18 there, throughout the day, you're going down 19 everything, how did someone not notice that 20 cell was empty? 21 : Hmm. And you're absolutely 22 right. Now -. 23 : So, the point being is, 24 does that mean that these rounds weren't 25 conducted? EFTA00062416 125 1 : I'm not going to say that 2 because I know those people went down, down 3 range, you know, but what I'm going to say is, 4 like, if that dude was gone, and you know, the 5 number one priority is Epstein, and you're just 6 doing rounds because you know that you're going 7 to have to count anyway. 8 : Yeah, yeah. 9 : You know what I'm saying? So, 10 when you go through on the count, that's when 11 you will catch that. 12 : So, yeah. In this case, 13 the 4:00 p.m. -- 14 : Exactly. 15 : -- count wasn't 16 conducted? 17 : Exactly. 18 : So, the 4:00 p.m. count 19 wasn't conducted. And then -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- you have reason to 22 believe the 10:00 p.m. count wasn't conducted, 23 either. Nor the 12:00 p.m. Nor the 3:00 a.m. 24 And not the 5:00 a.m. So, none of those counts 25 were conducted. EFTA00062417 126 1 : I wasn't here for those. 2 : That's a - yeah, I know, 3 you left before 10:00 p.m. - so, that's when 4 you would believe it would have been caught, is 5 during the counts, not the rounds? 6 : I believe it would have been 7 caught more so during the counts, and with the 8 rounds, you can catch it, but with a million 9 things going on, it's a little bit harder. 10 : I gotcha. 11 : You know, 12 : So, the counts, the more 13 official thing, where there's two inmates where 14 you're actually counting inmates. So, the fact 15 that the 4:00 p.m. count wasn't conducted, 16 that's why you believe you didn't actually 17 catch it until 9:30? 18 : Yeah. 19 : Okay. 20 : That's why I believe I didn't 21 catch it. 22 : All right. But you did 23 catch it at 9:30 -- 24 : Yeah. I did catch it. 25 : -- and you do believe you EFTA00062418 127 1 notified someone? 2 : Yes. 3 : And you do believe you 4 told both and Noel? 5 : Yeah. Yes. 6 : Yes. And are you 7 confident of both those things? Can you state 8 under penalty and perjury of law, I told 9 and Noel, he did not have a cell mate? 10 : Yes. 11 : What about, are you 12 confident under penalty and perjury of law, I 13 called the lieutenant's office and notified 14 them that Epstein did not have a cell mate? 15 : I'm confident that I called, 16 but who was on the other end of that phone -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- is my issue. 19 : Right. And what I'm 20 saying is, are you confident you called the 21 lieutenant's office, though? 22 : No, I can't say I'm confident 23 I called the lieutenant, but I want to say yes, 24 because that's normally what I would do. 25 : Right. So, who - if you EFTA00062419 128 1 didn't call the lieutenant's office - who would 2 it be that you would have called? 3 : It might have been a unit 4 manager, or somebody. If anybody was still in 5 the building at the time. But I called 6 somebody. I spoke to someone, higher than me, 7 that could make a decision about this 8 situation. 9 : All right. So, that was 10 going to be my next question. Are you sure, 11 not only did you call, but you actually spoke 12 with someone? 13 : Yes. I spoke with someone. 14 Who it was, at this point, I don't remember. 15 : Okay. So, someone. You 16 did make that notification, and you're saying 17 someone else (Indiscernible *01:20:44). 18 : I made that notification, yes. 19 : And you did - and you're 20 positive you informed and Noel? 21 : Yeah. Because we were all 22 talking. Like, it was, like, yeah. This dude 23 is (Indiscernible *01:20:54). Like, it was a 24 conversation. A brief conversation, but a 25 conversation nonetheless. EFTA00062420 129 1 : And you had the three of 2 you had it? 3 : Yeah. Like, it was, like, you 4 know, I said something, he said something, she 5 said something. And then, it's back to 6 business because it doesn't stop just because - 7 . You've got to kind of figure things out, as 8 you move. So -. 9 : Okay. What do you got on 10 that? 11 : When we initially asked you 12 the question about Epstein and his cell mate, 13 you said that Epstein must have a cell mate. 14 Right? To that effect. You knew that Epstein 15 needed a cell mate. 16 : Hmm, and I knew, and when I 17 said that, I mean, I knew that he had one 18 before. I knew he had one before. Because 19 that's why I was, like, oh, like, where did 20 this guy go? 21 : Other than the fact that he 22 came off psych observation, was there any other 23 reason why you felt that Epstein needed a cell 24 mate? 25 : Personally? EFTA00062421 130 1 : Did anyone instruct you? Any 2 instructions come down? 3 : The instructions started 4 coming down about him needing a cell mate after 5 his first so-called suicide attempt or 6 whatever, and that's when they started picking, 7 and that's when, you know, like, how - well, 8 what's the other guy's name, Tartaglione? And 9 that's why we, as officers, can't determine who 10 we're going to put in there with this guy. You 11 know, like, because if I -. Like, let's say I 12 ought to put somebody else in there with him or 13 whatever, and because Epstein is saying that 14 Tartaglione attacked him, and this, and that, 15 and the third. That would fall on me. You 16 know, you want a supervisor to make that 17 determination. 18 : So, let's talk about -- 19 : So -. 20 : -- that. Were you there for 21 that incident, when that happened, the first 22 attempt of suicide? 23 : I wasn't there for that, no. 24 : Do you know what happened 25 between Epstein and Tartaglione? EFTA00062422 131 1 2 don't know. 3 : Only from what I heard. I : Have you heard that, if 4 Tartaglione attacked Epstein, did he try to 5 kill him, or did Epstein try to hang himself? 6 : I heard that Epstein tried to 7 hang himself and that, you know, he blamed 8 Tartaglione. 9 : Okay. Now, you said from 10 that point onwards, instructions started coming 11 down. From who? 12 : The instructions started 13 coming down from the SHIT lieutenant. I know 14 Lieutenant 15 16 lieutenant? 17 would come in. He would So, who is the SHU : Now? 18 : No, no. At that point. 19 : At that point in time, I think 20 it was still Lieutenant 21 22 23 : Was it : Was it Lieutenant • • 24 hmm. - yeah - was in there, too. Mm- was. I think was 25 SHU Lieutenant at that time. In fact, I can EFTA00062423 132 1 find out right now. 2 • 3 4 though. 5 ■ 6 7 -. 8 : He was not working on -? : He was not working that night, No. He was off that day? : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's see. So So, it came from Lieutenant 9 You think it came from Lieutenant 10 also? 11 : Yeah. Because I, like, I 12 didn't speak to recently during that 13 timeframe, I don't believe. I think, like, 14 because I think it was, like, I know one time 15 ,specifically, Lieutenant was, like, by - 16 he specifically said - boss's do, not that 17 night, though. But, you know, he specifically, 18 like, that's one of the first people that was, 19 like, was adamant about keep an eye on this 20 guy. This is why we put him in this cell. 21 : Well, what about the cell 22 mate requirement? 23 : The cell mate requirement 24 thing. That was something that it was 25 conversations amongst other SHU crew members EFTA00062424 133 1 from day, evening, morning shift, or whatever. 2 Like -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- we knew we couldn't just 5 make a decision. So, that was a thing, like, 6 everybody was, like, yo, call the lieutenants, 7 like, make -- 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : -- like, have them tell you 10 who to put in there with this person. 11 : When was this conversation? 12 : This is over the course of 13 time. You know, a couple days. Because we, 14 like, people get - people leave this 15 institution, and people come back in. So, 16 usually, you never really know. So, this is, 17 like, you know, days leading, you know, days 18 leading up to this or whatever. We just, like, 19 idle conversations, that, amongst staff, that 20 we have had. 21 : That Epstein needed a 22 cellmate at all times. 23 : Yeah. And then, like, you 24 know, like, because I believe, at one point in 25 time, he had a cell mate, somebody left, and EFTA00062425 134 1 then, they -. We had to find a cell mate for 2 him real quick. But like I said, like, this is 3 - it's bits and pieces here. 4 : Which SHU staff do you recall 5 having that conversation with? 6 : Pfft. Usually, those are the 7 little quick conversations you have during 8 shift change. So, this is, like, hi, bye, 9 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 10 : But you don't recall if it 11 happened? 12 : Yeah. I don't recall it. 13 : I have a question. That 14 memo. So, you said you've relived 15 . Do you recall relieving at 16 what time? 17 : (Indiscernible 18 *01:24:59). 19 : Hmm. 2:00. Yeah. 20 : At 2:00? 21 : Yeah. 2:00. Maybe a little - 22 . 23 : Do you recall if he left the 24 institution? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00062426 135 1 : But he was no longer in the 2 SHU, at that point? 3 : But yeah, after I relieved 4 him, I think he -. I don't know if he went 5 home, or if he went somewhere else. I don't 6 know. 7 : Okay. Does that sound right? 8 : Yeah. So, what you want 9 to say is, this 10 : Last page. 11 : -- so, this -- 12 : Last page. 13 : No, no. Not that one. It's 14 the other one. Not this one. I need the other 15 one. 16 : Yeah. The email. 17 : The email. 18 : So, this email from 19 to , who was the ops lieutenant 20 at the time, was sent at 6:07 p.m., where he 21 wrote this - you wrote that, the shot, where 22 everyone would call it the -- 23 : So, look at the date on top. 24 At the time. 25 : -- so, it appears that EFTA00062427 136 1 was still in the institution at 6:00 2 p.m. We're trying to figure out why. What 3 would he have been doing in there? Would he -? 4 : I don't know. 5 : No? And he's not listed 6 on that daily roster. Correct? It's signed 7 from -. 8 : That's the 10th. Look at the 9 9th. 10 : After he left. Can you 11 find his name on there? 12 13 14 leaving at? 15 : It's -. What's the schedule show him : 2:00. We saw him leaving at 16 2:00 because I'm his relief. 17 : And you know he was not 18 in the SHU. Correct? 19 : Right. 20 : Do you guys have access to 21 BOP -? 22 : Let him look first. 23 : Okay. 24 : I don't know. And what was 25 your question again? EFTA00062428 137 1 : Do you have access to BOP 2 email outside of work? 3 : No. 4 : The only way to send an email 5 is from where? 6 : I could send an email to a BOP 7 address. 8 : No, no. From your BOP email 9 to another SOP. Like, let's say he was sending 10 an email to , right? Could he have done 11 it from outside the institution? Or does he 12 have to be inside the MCC to get that? 13 : Like, say it one more time. 14 : So, in order for him to send 15 this email -- 16 : Yes, in order for to 17 send an email to -- 18 : This email. 19 20 : This email. 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : In order for him to send this 23 email, can he do it outside of the MCC, or does 24 he have to be inside the MCC to send it? 25 : Oh, no. You can send an email EFTA00062429 138 1 to a BOP email, outside of the MCC. 2 : But what he's saying is, 3 would he have access to his BOP email outside 4 of the MCC? Would he have been able to send it 5 6 : Oh, would -- 7 : -- yeah. 8 : would has access 9 to -. Oh. Not to my knowledge. I don't know 10 how to do that. 11 : Okay. Yeah, no. And we 12 already know that. 13 : And you didn't see him all 14 day? After he had left. 15 : Hmm-mm. 16 : And you relieved him. You 17 didn't see him in the SHU? 18 : No. 19 : He never came back? 20 : Hmm-mm. 21 : Okay. So, we have all these 22 documents that we showed you. Just initial 23 them, please. 24 : Okay. Hmm. And this. This 25 one, too, or no? EFTA00062430 139 1 : Yes. Anything we showed you. 2 : Okay. 3 : Just down there. 4 : What is this one? 5 : This is the one -. 6 : Okay. 7 : Schedule report. That's the 8 one that shows that inmate Reyes, he had left. 9 : Gotcha. 10 : And you'll notice, he was 11 transferred within, and he went from MCC -- 12 : To GEO. 13 : -- to GEO. 14 : Thank you, sir. 15 : And we probably covered this, 16 but just want to ask one more time. If that 17 4:00 p.m. count was done, would it have been 18 caught that Reyes was not in the institution, 19 and Epstein needed a cell mate? 20 : There would have -. It would 21 have been caught that, you know, that he wasn't 22 in the institution, but, like, when you count, 23 even though you're looking at living, breathing 24 bodies, you know, sometimes you'll be, like, I 25 don't remember everybody's name. Sometimes I'm EFTA00062431 140 1 talking to inmates and I'm, like, hey, you. 2 So, I probably wouldn't even notice it was 3 Reyes. You know? 4 : But would you -- 5 : But if you -. 6 you would have noticed 7 that there was no one in the cell, is what 8 we're saying. 9 : Right. 10 : Now, we asked you about, have 11 you ever pre-filled -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : -- round sheets -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- or count sheets. You said 16 yes to the count sheets. Right? 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Do you recall ever pre- 19 filling round sheets at all? 20 : I don't recall pre-filling 21 round sheets. I remember being taught about 22 it, at one point in time. 23 : Taught about it by who? 24 : That was when I was a daisy 25 fresh rookie. EFTA00062432 141 1 : Okay. 2 : So, I knew that that was 3 something that was done. 4 5 6 7 : The pre-filling? : Yeah. : By who? : I want to say it was Clark, 8 but I was a rookie back then. I was -- 9 : By who? 10 : -- (Indiscernible *01:30:15), 11 though. Clark, but that was I was a rookie 12 by then. 13 : Who is Clark? 14 : He don't work here no more. 15 : Do you recall his first name? 16 : No. 17 : Okay. Do you recall hearing 18 or seeing anybody else pre-fill round sheets or 19 count sheets? 20 : Yeah. You hear about it, but 21 -. 22 : Like, who? 23 : You know what I'm saying, 24 like, I've heard about it from multiple people. 25 Names and dates of when they did it. Like, I EFTA00062433 142 1 don't know. 2 3 heard about? - I I don't need - who have you don't need dates or anything, 4 but who have you heard about pre-filling the 5 rounds and counts sheets? 6 7 school staff, like, you know, like, when, like, 8 but these people don't even work here anymore. 9 You know, like, I mean, I don't know these 10 people. They don't work here anymore. They, 11 you know, like, they had a whole SHU crew. 12 Like, there was a whole system of things that 13 they had it on lock. That was just how it 14 worked. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : You know, some of the old : So, you said SHU So, I remember, as a rookie, I would go in there. And then, you know, they teach you things or whatever, and then, you know, like, I guess they've been working so long, you know, they know the short cuts that they do. So, I remember learning about it then or whatever. And then, I even got taught at one point, or whatever. I'm, like, okay. But I wasn't working up there then. : So, the names. I know you EFTA00062434 143 1 mentioned the SHU crew. So, the names. What 2 are the names? 3 : From all these -. From back 4 then or whatever, it was a whole slew of 5 people. 6 : Which is fine. Any names you 7 recall. Because you said you learned it from 8 people, right? 9 10 11 : Yeah. : And so -. : So, like, as me learning, 12 like, well, now, I know when I started, 13 was up there. 14 *01:31:49). was up there. 15 16 17 spell that? 18 19 20 • 21 there? 22 23 people. 24 • • (Phonetic Sp. . Oh. How do you He doesn't work here no more. : Okay. : Who else used to work up Some dude that used to work here, named used to work up there. It's a bunch of So, you've got -- 25 : Track of all these names. EFTA00062435 144 1 and 2 3 : Yeah. 4 : Have you seen them pre-fill - 5 have you heard or seen them - pre-fill round 6 sheets or count sheets? 7 : I've heard of it. But, you 8 know, like, I haven't seen them do it, but I've 9 heard of it or whatever. And I do remember who 10 it was, though. I remember, at one point in 11 time, somebody showed me, like, oh, yeah, this 12 is how you -. Teaching me how to do the round 13 sheets. And taught me that way. 14 : What did they teach you 15 exactly? 16 : Like, I start here. So, the 17 time is 4:05. And you start at 4:05, finish at 18 4:06. The next one, you do at 4:07, 4:08. 19 : So, that's why you, when you 20 saw that -. 21 : That's when I saw that, and I 22 recognized it. 23 24 25 : So, you think that's -- : That's -. : -- that's how it was taught EFTA00062436 145 1 for -- 2 3 : Mm-hmm. -- how many round sheets have 4 you done? (Indiscernible *01:32:58) that it was 5 pre-filled? 6 : Pre-filled? 7 : Yeah. 8 : I don't recall doing any pre- 9 filled round sheets on my career. Because it 10 was a situation -. Well, that's another story, 11 so I'm not even going to get into that. 12 : Okay. 13 : Yeah, but -. 14 : You've never, on the round 15 sheets. 16 : Hmm-mm. 17 : How many count sheets have 18 you? 19 : Now, the count sheets, on the 20 other hand, if, you know, you're in a hurry, 21 you fill it out -- 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : -- you execute it. And then, 24 you put it out. Because you're just, like, you 25 don't want to waste time just doing paperwork. EFTA00062437 146 1 But obviously, I learned a valuable lesson from 2 that one. 3 : So, I know on that one, that 4 a count wasn't actually done. Have there been 5 any other situations 6 : No. 7 : -- where the counts haven't 8 been done? 9 : No. 10 : Do you know of any employees 11 that haven't been doing rounds or counts? 12 : In SHU or just in the prison 13 in general? 14 : Just in general. 15 : Yeah. 16 : The SHU is what we 17 concentrated -- 18 : Yeah. 19 : -- but if you know in 20 general. 21 : Nah, and - pfft - and 22 especially after all of this. 23 : No. Let's talk about 24 starting at that time, too - were you aware of 25 employees not doing rounds and counts? EFTA00062438 147 1 : No. But they were all -. I 2 do recall an incident where, I guess there was 3 a bad count. No. There was two good counts. 4 It was two good counts, and then, they figured 5 out it was a bad count the next shift or 6 whatever. So, basically, what people were 7 doing, they would look in on the computer to 8 see what the number was, fill out the paper, 9 and send it down. I remember that happening a 10 while back. 11 : They looked on the computer 12 for the number? 13 : Yeah. 14 : How do you look -- 15 : Like -- 16 : -- on the computer? 17 : -- they, I guess, like, you 18 know, somebody must have had work control, and 19 had El access, and just looked up the number -- 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 -- of what control would have 22 on the El, then filled it out, and then said, 23 here you go. And turned it in. And that went 24 on for some time or whatever. So -. 25 : When was this? EFTA00062439 148 1 : I don't even remember when it 2 is. But I remember that was I remember 3 that was a thing because it was, like, some 4 people were supposed to get in trouble for 5 that. 6 : Do you recall if 7 Noel, or any of the SHU staff had access to the 8 El? Even yourself. Did you guys have access to 9 the El document? 10 : No. I didn't have access to 11 the El at that time. No. 12 : What about the rest of the 13 staff? 14 : I don't think so. 15 : How would they have the 16 count? 17 : He already said. 18 : No, he did, but I'm going to 19 ask about the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight. How 20 would they know to go off the -? I know you 21 went off the master sheet, right? 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : What sheet -? What number -? 24 Where would they have got the number two? Not 25 for a 10:00 p.m. and a midnight. EFTA00062440 149 1 : With that -- 2 : (Indiscernible *01:35:18). 3 : -- yeah, what would have 4 happened with that is, is you just, like, when, 5 like, I'm leaving at 10:00. So, I'm leaving at 6 10:00. And they were there for the 4:00 count. 7 So, they already know numbers. 8 : From the 4:00? 9 : They already know the numbers. 10 : So, they're going based 11 upon the 4:00 count (Indiscernible *01:35:37) - 12 13 : Right. 14 : -- and if anybody left, 15 they would just subtract them from that number 16 -- 17 : Right. 18 : -- that you used? 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Because they know that 21 the 4:00 p.m. count -- 22 : Yeah. So, like -- 23 : -- (Indiscernible 24 *01:35:44). 25 : -- put, like, this -. All EFTA00062441 150 1 right. So, let's just say for the sake of 2 argument, if 9:30, right? It's 9:30, lock the 3 institution down, you count, you take a count 4 at 10:00. You count at 10:00, and at this 5 point in time, you know, 12:00, you're off or 6 whatever. So, midnight comes around, your 7 relief comes in, or whatever the case. But in 8 this particular case, the only person that went 9 home was Because Noel was still 10 here. So, if Thomas was coming in, or 11 whatever, yo, Noel was here the whole time. 12 She knows all the numbers. 13 : Right. 14 : He ain't got to do nothing. 15 : So, she know that the 16 4:00 count cleared, the number that you called 17 in was good at the time -- 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- or at least they said 20 it was good. 21 : And nobody else left, or came 22 in, and this -. 23 : So, they could just use 24 that number 25 : Mm-hmm. EFTA00062442 151 1 2 3 4 and at the 10:00 because Noel was : : -- as their base count, p.m., anything that changed, Mm-hmm. 5 : -- you know, constant. 6 She was there the whole time. 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. 9 : Have you ever slept on the 10 job while you was 11 : Not intentionally. 12 -- while you're sitting on 13 the computer. 14 : Like, you know, you sitting on 15 the computer, you might. 16 : Dose off. 17 : A box of sandman. Especially 18 if you're doing 16 hours on the regular basis. 19 : Did you sleep on August 9th - 20 - 21 : No. 22 : -- when you were working? 23 : No. 24 : Have you heard of a SHU - 25 let's just talk about SHU employees whenever EFTA00062443 152 1 you were working - have you heard about SHU 2 employees sleeping on the job? 3 : Rumors, but I never observed 4 it. 5 : Okay. When you were those 6 three of you guys in there, did you observe 7 or Noel sleeping -- 8 : No. 9 : -- during the shift on August 10 9th? 11 : No. I don't know how they 12 would because we was running the whole time. 13 : There's going to be a lot 14 of unnecessary stuff in there, but if you want 15 to ask those. 16 : Okay. Well, how do you 17 answer some of these questions, you said last 18 time you interacted with Epstein, something 19 triggered in your mind, right? And so, that's 20 why you told and Noel 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- to keep an eye on him. 23 Okay. Do you know if there was any threats 24 made to Epstein? 25 : No. EFTA00062444 153 1 : Did you know why Epstein was 2 in prison? 3 : Well, yeah. I watch the news. 4 : Okay. Did you have any 5 feelings regarding why he was in prison? 6 : No. 7 : Did Epstein have -. Go 8 ahead. You were going to say something. 9 : Like, feelings, what you did 10 is what you did. My personal feelings don't 11 matter. It's a job. You know what I'm saying? 12 So, like, I do my best for something like that. 13 That's why I don't personally like to read 14 people's paperwork. Because once you know, you 15 can't un-know it. 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : So, but nah, I didn't have any 18 feelings towards him or whatever. I'm, like, 19 okay, he needs to go here, he needs to go -. 20 All right. There you go. There you go. 21 : What is your understanding of 22 what happened to Epstein on August 9th and 10th 23 of 2019? 24 : My understanding of it was 25 that -- EFTA00062445 154 1 : What is your understanding of 2 what happened to him? 3 that he hung himself. He 4 hung himself in the cell. 5 : What is your - you said he 6 hung himself? 7 : Yeah. That's my understanding 8 of what happened. 9 : Do you have any information 10 with regard to any suspicious activity that 11 occurred on August 9th and 10th, 2019, leading 12 up to the discovery of Epstein in his cell? 13 : No. 14 : What do you know about 15 someone else taking Epstein's life? 16 : Nothing. 17 : What do you know about 18 other's assisting in taking Epstein's life? 19 : Nothing. 20 : Did Epstein take his own 21 life? 22 : I wasn't there, but I would 23 assume so. 24 : Did Epstein act alone in 25 taking his own life? EFTA00062446 155 1 : I would assume so. I wasn't 2 there. I didn't see anything, but -. 3 : Did you have any involvement 4 with Epstein's death? 5 : No. 6 : What would have prevented 7 Epstein's death? What actions could have been 8 taken to prevent his death? 9 : I mean, personally, I feel 10 that if a person wants to take their own life, 11 they're going to do it. You know? So, I do not 12 know. 13 : Do you think them actually, 14 if the C.O.s actually did the rounds and the 15 counts, it could have helped? 16 : I think it could have been a 17 deterrent, but the truth of the matter is, if 18 somebody is actually attempting to do that, 19 they're going to do it. That's not going to 20 stop. And the only reason I say that is 21 because of my mother's (Indiscernible 22 *01:40:12). If you want to do it, you're going 23 to do it. 24 : What about in a cell? In 25 a cell, though, if he actually had a cell mate EFTA00062447 156 1 in there. Do you think that that would have 2 potentially helped to actually somebody else in 3 there? 4 : Yes and no. I think it might 5 have deterred him for a bit, but, you know? 6 : He would have found a 7 way? 8 : He would have found a way. If 9 that's really what you wanted to do, you would 10 have found a way. But that's an opinion. 11 : At least in this specific 12 circumstance, you think that, between the 13 counts and the rounds, and then getting an 14 actual cell mate in there for him, because he 15 was required to have a cell mate, do you think 16 that those things would have at least helped? 17 : I think it would have helped. 18 Yes. 19 : What is some of the 20 systematic problems inside the MCC - and 21 specifically, the SHU - that allowed for 22 Epstein to die? 23 : A lack of staff. Overworked 24 staff. Not getting clear instructions on what 25 to do in certain instances; i.e., you know, he EFTA00062448 157 1 doesn't have a cell mate, but there was no 2 directive of who to put in there. Like I said, 3 if you have an odd number, you don't have a 4 body to put there. 5 : Hmm. 6 : You can't just take an inmate 7 from another house that didn't do anything, 8 just because you trust him, and put him in 9 there. 10 : So, you're saying there 11 should have been a backup inmate? 12 : There should have been a 13 backup plan for that. You know, and it was -. 14 To me, it was decisions made, on the part of 15 the institution, that were wrong. And because 16 they made these decisions, now those other two 17 officers have to pay for it. You know, 18 Epstein, as high-profile as he is, should not 19 have been in SHU. He should have been in Ten 20 South. 21 : Why do you say that? 22 : That's not a decision that we 23 get to make. Because he's too high a profile. 24 Look, after that thing hit the news, the world 25 knew who he was. The world knew who El Chapo EFTA00062449 158 1 was. El Chapo never touched a unit. He went 2 straight to Ten South. Why would you put 3 somebody that high-profile, you know, that 4 close to regular, every day inmates. 5 : Now, if people are in Ten 6 South, can they have attorney visits? 7 : Yes. 8 : So, they can still do 9 that attorney visit all day long -- 10 : But they don't -- 11 : -- if -. 12 : -- they could. But in Ten 13 South, the attorney goes up to Ten South. 14 There is a room where it's a barrier between 15 they can talk to each other, but it's a glass 16 and stuff in there, anything that needs to get 17 handed, you know, search it, and then, you pass 18 it over. You could obviously can't read 19 anybody's legal work, but you make sure that 20 there's no contraband in there, when it has -. 21 And there's another room in there with a slot 22 that they can, that the lawyer could do that, 23 but the lawyer has to show it to you first, and 24 then hand it to the inmate. 25 : Do you think that the EFTA00062450 159 1 attorney visits had anything to do with the 2 fact that he wasn't placed in Ten South? 3 : I definitely think that's a 4 possibility. You hear lawyer, and they jump, 5 too. 6 : Right. 7 : Perfect example is - and this 8 is more so the systemic problems that are here 9 - if an inmate says, I want to talk to my 10 family, I want to -. For whatever reason, you 11 know, and they get a call from the judge, the 12 lawyer, anything of the sort. They're going 13 to, oh, you've got to give this inmate a phone 14 call, even though this inmate just had his 15 required phone call, and it's not time for that 16 phone call again. As soon as you hear lawyer 17 or judge or whatever, they're going to tell you 18 to do that. 19 : Sure. 20 : Even though he's supposed to 21 wait his time. You know, so, but that's how 22 I hope that answers your question. 23 : Yeah. 24 : Fair enough. That's enough. 25 : Just back to the call EFTA00062451 160 1 that you said that you made some time between 2 9:30 and 10:00. Would it have potentially been 3 to the control center? 4 : I guess it's possible. It was 5 definitely possible. Because if anything or 6 whatever, like, because that is one of the 7 places that we call, control, the lieutenant's 8 office, the unit team, and, you know, sometimes 9 you might make a phone call, like, oh, no, this 10 person ain't here, try this person, try control 11 center. So, it's definitely possible. 12 : So, looking at the 9th, 13 that roster, who would have been on between 14 9:30 and 10:00 -- 15 : This is -- 16 : -- in control center -- 17 : -- the 9th. 18 : -- or the lieutenant's 19 office? Who could have been some potential 20 possibilities that you spoke with? 21 : Hmm. Now, I could have 22 possibly spoke to . I could have - and 23 honestly, enough - I could have definitely, 24 possibly spoke to or , too. 25 But yeah. I wouldn't have asked him. EFTA00062452 161 1 : Okay. 2 : Was there any that you 3 said you definitely would have spoken to 4 someone higher than you? Are you any of those 5 people higher than you? 6 : I mean -- 7 : Or were then. 8 : -- well, 9 (Indiscernible *01:44:52), I'm a seven, they're 10 eights. 11 : Okay. 12 : You know, and they've been in 13 the building for so long, that they -- 14 : Sure, sure, sure. 15 : -- they know every nook and 16 cranny in here. 17 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18 : So, that's, like, that's one 19 of the people, like, oh, wait a minute, I don't 20 know how to do something. Hey, can you teach 21 me how to do this? 22 : Sure. 23 : You know, so, they always gave 24 me good information. So, I would have probably 25 asked them. is always giving me good EFTA00062453 162 1 information when I'm trying to learn something. 2 So, I might have asked him. 3 : And so, now - and again, 4 thinking back on, like, how, like you're 5 saying, this is such a higher profile thing, 6 and this was so in the media, and everybody who 7 knew who he was after this - thinking back to 8 that, and thinking, like, oh, shit, I knew he 9 didn't have a cell mate, I know I called 10 somebody, that doesn't help jog your memory of 11 what was said, or what was done, and the fact 12 that you're involved now, specifically, with 13 central -- 14 : Yeah. And I'm -- 15 : -- (Indiscernible 16 *01:45:41). 17 : -- and I'm trying to remember 18 exactly who I spoke to. I really am. 19 20 21 : Because I mean -- : Yeah. : -- wouldn't you have 22 thought of that, like, even, like, that day 23 after, like, oh, man, good thing I called that 24 person and told them? 25 : Yeah. And, like, the only EFTA00062454 163 1 reason, I'm assuming that the reason that I 2 don't remember is because I was just moving so 3 fast. Like, I'm usually very, very detailed 4 and trying to remember things, and -- 5 : Sure, sure. 6 : -- you know, but -. 7 : All right. And then, do 8 you know anything about, if the 10:00 p.m. 9 count was conducted? 10 : That, I don't know. 11 : You just 12 : That -- 13 : -- you were gone. 14 : I was gone. 15 : Okay. So, you were 16 definitely gone by -- 17 : Yeah. I was definitely gone. 18 : -- before the 10:00 p.m. 19 count. All right. Do you want to ask 20 anything? 21 : No. 22 : Do we have - on the other 23 interview sheets, I had, like, the list of 24 (Indiscernible *01:46:33). Some here. Let me 25 just look. EFTA00062455 164 1 2 one, too. 3 Initial. Just initial this : Do you know anything 4 about Epstein being prematurely removed from 5 suicide watch; and the reasons why, if he was? 6 : Prematurely removed? Factually 7 speaking, I don't know if it's premature. I'm 8 not psych. Personally speaking, yeah, I think 9 it's probably a little fast. 10 : Do you know if anybody 11 had any influence on him being removed from 12 suicide watch? 13 : That, I don't know. 14 : Okay. So, you don't know 15 anything about, like, attorneys, or judges, or 16 wardens, or anything -- 17 : No. 18 : -- who had contact with 19 him? 20 : Yeah. I don't get to be privy 21 to that. 22 : Sure. Do you know 23 anything about the MCC SHU cameras being 24 tampered with or manipulated? 25 : No. EFTA00062456 165 1 : No. Do you know anything 2 about Epstein being in his assigned cell on 3 August 10th? Not being in his assigned cell on 4 August 10th, 2019? 5 : No. Not being in his assigned 6 -/ You mean, that's because the 10th is when he 7 was discovered? 8 : Correct. 9 : Hmm. No. 10 : So, you don't -. 11 : Like, so, he was -. Because, 12 I mean, like, I worked that day, but I worked 13 at 2:00. So -. 14 : Who's in charge of making 15 sure that the inmates are in the cells that 16 shows within the - I don't know if it was 17 Sentry or what system would I be that inmate 18 cell assignments are in? 19 : Oh, like, the Sentry. Sentry. 20 Yes. 21 : So, whose job is it to 22 ensure that -- 23 : That the -. 24 : -- Sentry matches what 25 cells they're in? EFTA00062457 166 1 : That's a collective. Really. 2 You know, in the SHU, there's supposed to be 3 the OIC. And probably with a little help from 4 C&A. On a regular housing unit, you get a new 5 inmate, hey, C&A, I got this new inmate, here's 6 his numbers, and here's the bed assignment, and 7 C&A keys it in. In SHU, usually - because it's 8 supposed to be four people in there - the SHU 9 OIC would key the inmate in, when they arrive. 10 : Okay. So, if after 11 they're -. So, if he arrives from suicide 12 watch on July 30th, 2019, and he's placed in 13 cell A -- 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : -- but for whatever 16 reason, a few hours later, it's determined he 17 can't be in cell A, he's got to be in cell B, 18 and him and his roommate, Reyes, were moved 19 over to cell B. Who's responsible for making 20 that change? 21 22 the computer? 23 : In the computer. : For making it physically or on 24 : You, like, you, normally, you 25 would want it to be the OIC. For this EFTA00062458 167 1 particular case, I would assume that a 2 lieutenant would have been all over that, and 3 they would have made sure it was done properly. 4 : So, in this case, should 5 it have been Lieutenant , who was the SHU 6 lieutenant? 7 : Yeah. 8 : All right. So, he should 9 have been making sure -. So, I mean, it's from 10 July 30th all the way to August 10th. He's in 11 a cell that doesn't match up with what Sentry 12 says. 13 : Yeah. That's not good. 14 : So, who, during that 15 period, should have caught that -- 16 : That would have been 17 : -- (Indiscernible 18 *01:49:33)? 19 : -- that would have been the 20 SHU lieutenant. 21 : The SHU lieutenant -- 22 : Yeah. 23 : -- would have audited 24 those reports? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062459 168 1 : To see who is in -. And 2 how often is that audited, do you know? 3 4 5 : I don't know right off hand. : Okay. : But yeah. SHU lieutenant 6 should have caught that one. 7 : And does that -- 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- have anything to do 10 with the OIC on the different shifts, to say, 11 like, all right, are these inmates in their 12 appropriate cells, or is Sentry up to date? 13 : We can ask one another these 14 questions or whatever, but it's very difficult 15 16 : Okay. 17 : -- to, you know, do that with 18 everything that's going on, because even during 19 shift change, nothing stops moving. So, the 20 way I was taught is, like, the morning watch 21 shift, because things slowed down, is they're 22 supposed to go through the paperwork and check 23 it, and fix everything. 24 : Okay. 25 : This is the way that I was EFTA00062460 169 1 taught how to do it. You know? So. 2 : Yeah, but ultimately, you 3 believe it was the SHU lieutenant that should 4 have been responsible? 5 : Yes. 6 : Is that a yes or no? 7 : Yes. 8 : Do you know -. Did we 9 ever talk about cell searches? 10 : No. 11 : Do you know if cell 12 searches were being conducted in the SHU in 13 July and August of 2019? 14 : On my shift, no. On the day 15 shift, that's when they're supposed to be 16 conducted, because you have more staff, and you 17 can pull inmates out and actually execute that. 18 On the evening shift, you don't have enough 19 staff to do that. 20 : Per policy, in the SHU, 21 aren't you supposed to - even at that time - to 22 be doing five cell searches per shift? 23 : Yeah. You're supposed to do 24 five cell searches per shift, but being that 25 they're in the SHU and you can't just pull them EFTA00062461 170 1 out like that, it's impossible to do that. So, 2 when you do your searches in SHU, you search 3 kind of, like, the common areas, and, you know, 4 things of that nature, during the day, you 5 know, because inmates are going to recreation, 6 medical, and all this, and things of that 7 nature, or whatever. And so, and you have more 8 people. So, it's a lot easier to move people 9 from one place, holding cell over here, search 10 the cell, put them back. It's a lot easier. 11 When I'm on the evening shift, if, you know, if 12 I'm doing social visits - social visits, well, 13 that, too - social visits, or phone calls, or 14 cell sanitation, meaning that, you know, 15 inmates get the broom and sweeps out his cell, 16 I hold the bag up to the slot, he throws his 17 trash out, and then I'm onto the next one. You 18 know, it's -- 19 : Okay. 20 : -- yeah. 21 : So, are you aware that, 22 at the time, in August 2019, though, it was a 23 policy at least, maybe not practice, but a 24 policy, that five cell searches were supposed 25 to be being conducted during the evening watch? EFTA00062462 171 1 2 3 that? 4 : No. : You didn't even know : No. 5 : So, they were not being 6 conducted then? 7 8 9 10 people 11 : Sure. 12 : No. Not cells. : Yeah. : Because you don't have the -- to pull these inmates out. 13 : And the morning watch, 14 that was the policy, that you just conduct 15 searches of the common areas. But during day 16 watch, and night watch, you were supposed to be 17 doing cell searches. 18 : Easier enough if you have a 19 full crew -- 20 : Right. 21 -- but if you don't have a 22 full crew, how are you going to execute that? 23 : So, the reason why they 24 weren't being done is because you were 25 understaffed? EFTA00062463 172 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : Okay. Overworked and 3 understaffed? 4 : Yes. 5 : Okay. Do you remember 6 them ever being done at night watch? 7 : No. I've never seen a cell 8 search conducted on the evening shift. 9 : Okay. That's all I got. 10 : That's all I got, too. 11 : Anything - you've got 12 questions for us? - or anything you want to ask 13 about this stuff, or -? 14 : Hmm. Where do I stand in the 15 mix of all this, at this point? 16 : We don't -. This is a 17 big investigation. We're talking to a ton of 18 people. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : So, as far as what we do 21 is, we just basically put the puzzle together. 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : We don't, you know, say 24 this person or, you know? We basically give our 25 report to the BOP, and the BOP determines -- EFTA00062464 173 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- what it is that's 3 going to happen to people. So, I can't 4 necessarily say this or that, how you stand, or 5 how you don't stand. We're the fact finders. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : You know, we, you know, 8 we present information. We don't make 9 determinations. So, based upon, you know - and 10 again, I think you've already provided all this 11 information in the past - it's just now, we 12 needed to gain clarification of exactly what 13 you meant from what you said -- 14 : Okay. 15 : -- and that was, again, 16 the purpose of this. So, we can't really say. 17 What we can say is that - again - you're kind 18 of, like, a small piece of this puzzle. 19 : Mm-hmm. My next question is, 20 even though this happened so long ago, why wait 21 so long? 22 : And then, that's -- 23 : Because that's not the only -. 24 Like, that's an incident, yes, and it's a big 25 one, but working in here, things happen all the EFTA00062465 174 1 time. So -- 2 3 4 -- 5 6 : Sure. : -- to be expected to remember : I totally understand. -- something from 2019, all 7 the way to 2021, and since that timeframe, I've 8 had other inmates attempt suicide, I've had -- 9 : Sure. 10 : -- other inmates attack staff 11 members. I've had to, you know, be a part of a 12 use of force teams. Multiple things. And I 13 got to go back to 2019 and try to remember 14 specific details 15 : Absolutely. No, and that 16 is -- 17 : -- do you know how difficult 18 that is? 19 : I couldn't agree more, 20 and those details should have been provided in 21 2019. They should have been asked. It's part 22 of the reason why a senior special agent is on 23 this, is to make sure that these questions are 24 being asked 25 : Oh. EFTA00062466 175 1 : -- and it's also why 2 there's a new case agent. So - you know, on 3 this - so, to make sure that we're going 4 through these things, it's, like, why weren't 5 these questions asked? Why weren't, you know, 6 that's part of the reason 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- why we're here. 9 : And -. 10 : Is to say, like, all 11 right, well, we'll reading this, but what does 12 he mean by that? You know what I mean? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : So, that's - again - why 15 we're here, is, like, all right, I could see 16 that you said whatever it is you said, but it's 17 not clear at all with what you meant. 18 : Right. 19 : And so, that's why we're 20 here, is to just get clarity on exactly what it 21 was that was stated, and it's also part of the 22 reason why we've -- 23 : Got the recorder. 24 : -- recorded every single 25 on these, is so that we don't have that problem EFTA00062467 176 1 in the future of, like, well, now we can say 2 exactly what was the question that was asked, 3 what was stated -- 4 : Stated -- 5 : -- in response. 6 : -- and what was meant. 7 : Right. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : And so, that's part of 10 it. The old case agent, at least from us, is 11 no longer with us. So, that's another reason 12 why, you know, there's a lot of reasons why 13 we're doing it now, and we weren't able to do 14 it for a time period. 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : I'm just not -. I'm not 17 sure that I can, you know, I can disclose what 18 those -- 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : -- reasons were. But 21 there were reasons. And now, we're trying to 22 move as fast as we can. I don't know if you've 23 heard, but we've been in here talking to a lot 24 of people. 25 : Yeah. I've heard. I heard EFTA00062468 177 1 that somebody was here. Who it was, I don't 2 know. 3 : Yeah. Yeah. 4 : But now, I do. 5 : Yeah. So, we're talking 6 to a lot of people, especially a lot of people 7 that, you know, worked August 9th and 10th, 8 because we've got to, you know 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- got to make sure that 11 we have our information right. Not just that 12 we talked to people, but we've got to make sure 13 that that's the actual, accurate information. 14 So -- 15 : Fair enough. 16 so, that's why we're 17 back out here, is primarily to make sure that 18 things are accurate. 19 : Okay. Not a problem. And so, 20 with all this and everything like that, so, 21 what's the next course of action? So, I've been 22 interviewed, you're still interviewing other 23 people. So, what happens next? 24 : That's what we're kind of 25 saying, is, like, we take the information and EFTA00062469 178 1 we pass it along. When that will happen, I 2 couldn't tell you that. 3 : Okay. 4 • Ultimately, though, I 5 would think what would, you know, if you're 6 talking about what happens specifically with 7 you, that would be in the hands of the BOP. 8 So, and who in the BOP? I don't know about 9 that. 10 : Okay. 11 : I don't know if it 12 happens with the warden level. I don't know if 13 it happens with OIA. I don't know what happens 14 there. But yeah. Timing. Like, I don't know. 15 All I know is we're not judge and jury. All we 16 are is the -- 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : -- the questioners. 19 : Do the -. Find the facts. 20 : Gotcha. 21 : Can I see all the documents 22 we showed? You signed all? 23 : Yeah, he did. 24 : You sure. All right. 25 Anything in there, right? I think this -- EFTA00062470 179 1 : Nope. 2 : I think this part right 3 here now. Right? 4 : All right. Anything 5 else? 6 : If you can think of anything 7 else, anything else you think that you forgot 8 to share with us 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : -- you're (Indiscernible 11 *01:57:23). 12 : Now, on that note, 13 though, being that this will be reviewed, is 14 there anything you want to say for the record? 15 : Pretty much that, like, 16 although it may be a tragedy that he's gone, I 17 wasn't here, I didn't have anything to do with 18 it. And I really don't think that, you know, 19 Thomas and Noel should be going through what 20 they're going through. I'm not saying that 21 they didn't make a mistake. But that's 22 personal opinion. 23 : Okay. 24 Are you still in 25 communication with them? EFTA00062471 180 1 : No. I never had either one of 2 their phone numbers. 3 : Okay. 4 : Okay. Great. Well, I 5 appreciate your time. Thank you very much for 6 your cooperation. It is 7 : 8:16. 8 : -- 8:16 p.m. This is 9 Senior Special Agent , and I'm 10 turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00062472 181 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00062473