EFTA00063459.pdf

LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 MAY 31, 2022 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 26 28632 Roadside Dr., Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063459 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063460 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : This is Special Agent 2 Today is May 31st, 2022. The time is 3 3:33 p.m., and the recording is now on. 4 My name is . I am a Special 5 Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, 6 Office of the Inspector General, New York Field 7 Office, and these are my credentials. You 8 should be able to see. This interview with New 9 York City Medical Examiner Dr. 10 Did I say that right? 11 : Yes. 12 : Is being conducted as part of 13 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 14 of the Inspector General investigation. 15 Today's date is May 31st, 2022. The time is 16 3:34 p.m. This interview is being conducted 17 via Microsoft Teams Video Conferencing. Also 18 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent-in-Charge 19 , and Office of Chief Medical Examiner 20 General Counsel, . For this 21 interview be recorded by me, Special Agent 22 Could everyone please identify 23 themselves for the record and spell your last 24 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special 25 Agent , and that's spelled LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063461 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 . SAC ? You're on mute. Sorry. 2 : My name is 3 I'm the Special Agent-in-Charge for the 4 New York Field Office. 5 : Ms. 6 MS. : Oh, 7 General Counsel from the New York City 8 Office of Chief Medical Examiner. 9 -• 10 : I'm 11 And I'm a city medical examiner at Office of 12 the Chief Medical Examiner in New York. 13 : Thank you, everyone. This is 14 an official D0J/OIG investigation into the 15 events surrounding the death of inmate Jeffrey 16 Epstein. And you are being asked to 17 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 18 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 19 the DOJ/OIG? 20 : Yes. 21 : Before starting the 22 interview, I would like to place you under 23 oath. , can you please raise your 24 right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 25 nothing but the truth during this interview? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063462 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I swear. 2 : Thank you. Please let me 3 know if you don't understand any questions that 4 I ask. I'll try to repeat it or try to 5 rephrase it for you. 6 : Okay. 7 : We're going to start with 8 your background, and then get into the details 9 of the autopsy itself. Can you provide us with 10 a summary of your college level education, 11 starting with your bachelor's degree? 12 : Sure. My bachelor's degree is 13 in Fine Art, and I completed that at 14 . I then went back to 15 school for pre-medical studies only, to 16 Columbia University School of Graduate Studies, 17 and completed the requisites, the pre-requisite 18 courses for applying to medical school. 19 I then went to medical school at SUNY 20 Downstate in Brooklyn, completed that, and I 21 earned an MD. I did a year of residency 22 training in obstetrics and gynecology. Found 23 that that wasn't the right field for me, so I 24 switched. 25 I did three years of training in LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063463 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 pathology. And then, I did a final year of 2 fellowship training in forensic pathology. All 3 of my residency training was done at King's 4 County Hospital in Brooklyn, and the fellowship 5 training was done here at the Office of the 6 Chief Medical Examiner. 7 : Okay. And the three years in 8 pathology, that was done at the Office of Chief 9 Medical Examiner? 10 : No. That was also done at 11 King's County, and not Brooklyn. 12 : Okay. Now, once you do the 13 three years in pathology, and you come over. 14 Did you start with the Office of Chief Medical 15 Examiner right after that? 16 : After completing the 17 fellowship year, yes. 18 : Okay. And then, once you 19 started at the Office of Chief Medical 20 Examiner, is there specialized training that 21 they sent you in for also, or -? 22 : We do, to maintain our 23 licenses, we do training on a weekly basis. 24 And in order to be board certified, you have to 25 recertify every ten years, and every year, show LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063464 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that you've done a certain amount of credits of 2 training. So, I've been undergoing 3 supplementary training my entire life since 4 coming to the Office of the Chief Medical 5 Examiner. 6 : Okay. And what year did you 7 earn your doctor? Did you become a doctor? 8 : It was 1999 when I graduated 9 from medical school. 10 : Okay. And your three years 11 in pathology? When did you complete that? 12 : So, I did, from '99 to 2001 13 was OB. And then, from 2001 to 2003 was the 14 pathology training. And then, '03 to '04 was 15 the fellowship training. 16 : '03 to '04. So, you've been 17 with the Medical Examiner's Officer for almost 18 20 years now? 19 : Yes. I did leave for one year 20 briefly. I took a job elsewhere to be second 21 in command. Didn't like it. Came back. So, 22 there has been a year break in service. 23 : Was that recently, or going 24 back a while? 25 : 2013 to 2014. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063465 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. Where did you go? 2 : I went to Madison, Wisconsin 3 to work at the Dane County Medical Examiner's 4 Officer. 5 : That's a big jump from New 6 York City to Madison. 7 : Oh, you aren't kidding. It's 8 very different. 9 : SAC , do you have any 10 questions about background? 11 : Nothing from me. Thanks. 12 : No problem. Prior to 13 conducting -. So, are you familiar with MCC 14 inmate - the Metropolitan Correctional Center 15 in New York - inmate Jeffrey Epstein? 16 : After his death, yes. 17 : So, prior to conducting 18 Did you conduct his autopsy? 19 : I did. 20 : Okay. Prior to conducting 21 Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy, how many autopsies 22 had you conducted? If you can give me a rough 23 estimate. 24 : Oh. I don't know exactly. It 25 was a couple thousand. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Oh, okay. And do you know 2 how many -? An estimate of how many of those 3 autopsies resulted in the conclusion of 4 suicide? 5 : Again, I don't have an exact 6 number, but I will say that there were an awful 7 lot of suicides in Staten Island where I 8 worked, and in Dane County. So, I've done 9 plenty. Certainly more than a hundred, 10 probably several hundred. 11 : Wow. Okay. And did you ever 12 deal with any prisoner deaths that you 13 conducted autopsies for, prior to Mr. Epstein? 14 : Oh, yes. 15 : Okay. And how many of those 16 autopsies, if you can give an estimate, 17 resulted in the determination of cause of death 18 by suicide? 19 : So, I can remember a couple 20 actually. Maybe two or three. 21 : Okay. I'll come back to 22 that. Anything else, SAC , on that? 23 : No. And now, doctor, these 24 were deaths at the MDC, Metropolitan Detention 25 Center, or was this the MCC, or what facility 9 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 were these autopsies conducted in reference to 2 their deaths? 3 : I honestly don't remember. 4 I'd have to look that up. 5 : But they were local here in 6 New York? 7 : They were New York cases. 8 Yes. 9 : Okay. 10 : I didn't do any custody cases 11 at all when I was in Dane County. 12 : Thanks. 13 MS. : Just to clarify, it is 14 (Indiscernible *00:07:30) City Department of 15 Correction -- 16 : Okay. 17 MS. : -- you're asking about 18 federal deaths. 19 : Yes, we are. 20 : Okay. So, yeah. 21 : Thank you for that. Dr. 22 Roman, do you recall when and where you 23 conducted the autopsy of Jeffrey Epstein? 24 : I did the autopsy on the 11th 25 of August, 2019, and I actually have my notes 10 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in front of me, so I will check the 2 : Okay. 3 time, if you'd bear with 4 me. Oh, let's see. I mean, actually, maybe : 5 don't have that particular note. I don't 6 remember exactly, but I know he was my only 7 case that day. So, I started in the morning, 8 and worked steadily through the day on him. 9 : Okay. So, that was the only 10 case for the day. 11 : Yes. 12 : And when did you become aware 13 of his death? 14 : We were made aware of the 15 death the day prior, and we were expecting him 16 to arrive the day prior, actually, on the 10th. 17 : Okay. How do you get 18 assigned to do Mr. Epstein's autopsy? Is that 19 like a rotation? Or was it assigned to you by 20 somebody? 21 : It was assigned to me by 22 somebody. We had initially thought he would 23 come in on the 10th, and I wasn't the person 24 assigned, but that person wasn't working on the 25 11th, and I was chosen to do the autopsy on the LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 11th. 2 : Okay. Do you know who it was 3 that was chosen initially? 4 : Yes. 5 : Do you know the name? 6 : Sure. It was 7 (Phonetic Sp. *00:09:00). 8 -: . Okay. No problem. 9 : Yup. 10 : Did anyone else assist you 11 with the autopsy? 12 : Yes. I had morgue technicians 13 and photographers assisting me with the 14 autopsy. 15 : Do you know the names off 16 hand? 17 : I remember the photographer is 18 (Phonetic Sp. *00:09:17). And there 19 were a couple of morgue techs, but the one that 20 I recall is Gosh, what's her last 21 name? It's blanking. I'm blanking on 22 last name. But 23 : Okay. No problem. And you 24 said -- 25 : Yeah. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 : -- there's , and there's 2 one other person. Right? 3 : Yeah. And there was another 4 morgue tech who sort of rotated in and out, and 5 I don't remember which one that was. 6 : Okay. 7 : We usually don't keep track of 8 that. 9 : No problem. 10 That's her last name. 11 . I know a couple of ', and she 12 . Mm-hmm. 13 : Thank you. Based on your 14 recollection of the autopsy, is there anything 15 that stood out in your mind, based on your 16 examination? 17 : Yeah. Definitely. 18 : Do -? 19 : Do you want me to -- 20 : Yes. 21 : -- recount it for you? 22 : Yes, please. 23 : So, he had a really marked and 24 obvious ligature furrow, very consistent with 25 what I typically see in a hanging. And he, LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 above the furrow, had fluride (Phonetic Sp. 2 *00:10:16) petechial hemorrhages of his facial 3 skin, his conjunctiva, and in his mouth, all 4 things that I see very frequently in hangings. 5 : I'm going to ask you a favor. 6 So, some of the terminology is going to go 7 right over my head. So, and especially for 8 reporting everything. Is it possible -? I 9 don't know if you can, how do I say? To dumb it 10 down. 11 : Say it in English? 12 : Yes. 13 : I could do that. I'm pretty 14 sure you know what ligature furrow 15 : Yes. 16 : -- means. 17 : I do. 18 : It's just a deep -- 19 : Yes. 20 : -- abraded sort of abrasion of 21 the skin. The petechiae that I'm referring to, 22 and the plethora. So, plethora is purple 23 discoloration of the skin from back up of 24 circulation. Petechiae are pinpoint 25 hemorrhages that occur with a similar LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1: 1 mechanism. If the blood is cut off, and the 2 small capillaries burst, you get petechial 3 hemorrhages, which, they're just like pinpoint 4 bleeds in the skin. So, he had them in his 5 skin, in his eyes, and in his mouth. 6 : Okay. 7 : Yeah. 8 : And is that consistent with 9 suicides? 10 : It's consistent with a suicide 11 by hanging. Yes. 12 : Right. Hanging. Can that 13 also be associated with anything else, like 14 strangulation, anything like that? 15 : So, the petechiae can be. The 16 plethora, usually not. 17 : Okay. And why not the 18 plethora? 19 : Because the plethora really 20 involves having a sustained steady pressure, 21 and you usually don't get that in a 22 strangulation because very rarely is a person 23 going to be still for that, or submit to it, 24 without struggling. So, with a struggle, the 25 pressure is not even, and you really don't get LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 the plethora, and the petechiae aren't quite 2 distributed like his were. His were, like, 3 just all the way from the neck up, he had 4 petechiae. In strangulations, it's usually 5 just the eyes and mouth, not all of the skin. 6 So, even though they can be seen in homicidal 7 strangulations, they usually have a different 8 pattern then I saw in Mr. Epstein. 9 : Got it. Thank you. So, what 10 made you come to the conclusion that Jeffrey 11 Epstein's death was a suicide? Can you walk us 12 through that? I know you mentioned the 13 plethora, the petechiae, and also the ligature 14 itself. What else did you see that made you 15 come to the conclusion as suicide? Sorry. 16 : So, the autopsy didn't show 17 really any signs of a struggle. And every 18 single strangulation case I've had, even people 19 who were really impaired by intoxicants, they 20 struggled. So, he didn't have any marks on his 21 hands. He had one abrasion on his arm, which 22 probably was from convulsing when being 23 hanging. But nothing that suggested a 24 struggle. No broken fingernails. No other 25 bruising anywhere. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063474 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1; 1 He was pretty much pristine, other than 2 the neck and face findings. He also internally 3 didn't have strap muscle hemorrhages of the 4 neck. That's bleeding in the lung muscles, in 5 the front of your neck. Nor did he have 6 hemorrhaging in the muscles of the back of his 7 neck. That you see when it's been an 8 incomplete compression, not a sustained 9 compression like a hanging. So, when I don't 10 see those, I'm more likely to think hanging 11 than manual strangulation, or even ligature 12 strangulation. 13 And then, lastly, he did have fractures of 14 his thyroid cartilage and one side of his hyoid 15 bone. These are structures inside your neck. 16 Then the pattern of these fractures was 17 consistent with a hanging. You see a very 18 different pattern of fracturing if there has 19 been a manual compression of the neck versus a 20 sustained pressure of a hanging. And the 21 pattern of his fractures was that of a hanging. 22 So, even without an investigation, and 23 although I wanted one, just because of the 24 nature of the case, even without an 25 investigation, this case, autopsy wise, looked LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like a very clear-cut hanging. 2 : Okay. I'm going to break 3 that down just a little bit. The hyoid -- 4 : Sure. 5 : -- the hyoid bone. What is 6 that? 7 : So - It's a little warm in my 8 office, sorry - it's a U-shaped bone that sits 9 between your tongue and your larynx. Sort of 10 horseshoed like this, shaped like this, right 11 here. And its function is to aid in swallowing 12 and phonation, speaking. 13 Because it's almost like a little 14 wishbone, when somebody squeezes your neck, it 15 snaps. And if somebody squeezes your neck in a 16 homicidal fashion with un-sustained pressure, 17 it'll snap near the joints where it was 18 centrally. If your hyoid bone is pressed 19 against your spine by hanging, it fractures at 20 the tips. Maybe one. Maybe both. His is 21 fractured on the tip, on the left. So, that's 22 why I think his hyoid bone is fractured from 23 hanging and not manual strangulation. 24 : Okay. And what about the 25 thyroid -? What is the thyroid? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 : So, the thyroid cartilage, I 2 think that's what you mean 3 : Yes. 4 : -- is what we refer to as, 5 like, the larynx, or the voice box. And it's 6 sort of a It's almost shaped like a 7 butterfly inside of your throat. And it has 8 two horns at the top, which be almost like the 9 tops of butterfly wings. And those sit next to 10 the end points of the hyoid bone. 11 : Okay. 12 : So, that structure also gets 13 pressed against the spine when you hang, and 14 the tips break, and that's exactly where his 15 thyroid cartilage is fractured, on both of the 16 tips. 17 : Okay. 18 : And if it's fractured during a 19 manual strangulation, whether it's a bar type 20 or a pincher type, it usually fractures, again, 21 centrally or unevenly, not in this even 22 fashion. 23 : And because there was 24 consistent - you're saying - because there was 25 consistent pressure -- LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2C 1 : Yes. 2 : -- pressure on the neck, it's 3 a different type of damage that happens to the 4 hyoid bone, and also the thyroid cartilage 5 itself, and that's what you saw in Epstein 6 Jeffrey Epstein -- 7 : Yes. 8 : -- and that's why you came to 9 the determination of suicide? 10 : Yes. All of these things 11 combined, lack of other trauma, beautiful 12 ligature furrow that actually peaked. You 13 know, if it's a ligature strangulation, they 14 usually don't peak upward. They're either 15 straight across, or they peak downward. His 16 peak is upward slightly. He's got the 17 plethora, the petechiae, the patterns of 18 fracturing, and no other trauma. So, all of 19 that together made this autopsy very, very 20 consistent with a suicidal hanging. 21 : When you say peak, you mean 22 the back of the actual ligature itself, on the 23 back of the neck, going up? 24 : Yeah. I can -. Let me see. 25 I'm going to use my phone cord to show you. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 When you hang yourself, it hangs, and it 2 actually will sometimes make like a peak at the 3 back, right? And sometimes it isn't fully 4 circumferential. That's really classic for 5 hanging. So, Mr. Epstein had a peak, it was 6 sort of to the right and behind the ear, and it 7 was not fully circumferential. Totally 8 consistent with a hanging. 9 : And if it was circumstantial, 10 that means someone strangled him? 11 : It can, or it can mean that if 12 he has - if you are really good, if what they 13 showed me was his ligature, he didn't tie a 14 good slip knot, i.e., he didn't tie a good 15 hangman's knot. If you tie a good hangman's 16 knot, it will sometimes be circumferential just 17 because it tightens with your weight. If you 18 don't, if you have a fixed knot, you slump into 19 the ligature, and it doesn't -. It isn't 20 circumferential. So, it depends on the 21 ligature. I have a feeling he wasn't well 22 versed in the tying of hangman's knots or good 23 slip knots, and that's why his isn't 24 circumferential. 25 : So, what type of knot did you LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 see on the noose? 2 : So, they showed me a noose 3 with what looked like a fixed sort of granny 4 knot. And I'm not convinced that's even a 5 noose because they told me they thought this 6 was the ligature, but there was a lot of 7 confusion about what the ligature - which thing 8 was actually the ligature. And there was a lot 9 of stuff in that room. But the thing that they 10 said, this is the ligature, it had a fixed 11 knot. Not a slip knot. 12 : Okay. I kind of jumped, but 13 I'll come back to the noose part. That's later 14 on in the interview. You said there was no 15 defensive wounds. So, if someone was to - if 16 there was possibly an attack - me just putting 17 it out there - if it was an attack, there would 18 have been defensive wounds. Where else? Where 19 would you have seen the defensive wounds? 20 : So, what I tend to see in 21 victims of strangulation is they have lots of 22 debris under their fingernails from fighting, 23 and from trying to pull the strangling person 24 off their own neck. So, you'll see a bunch of 25 linear abrasions usually on the neck itself, LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 and chin, and you'll see a lot of debris under 2 the nails. He didn't have either of those 3 things. Those are usually women. 4 Being that he's a man, I would have also 5 expected more of sort of the pugilistic type of 6 injuries, because I can't imagine somebody 7 strangling a man easily without him trying to 8 punch them out. So, I would think there would 9 be some, you know, punch-type things, too, or 10 sort of contusions on the knuckles and stuff. 11 But he didn't have any of that. None of that 12 stuff. 13 : Is it possible, I mean, in 14 cases of suicide, like, once someone tries to 15 hang themselves, do they just sit there? I 16 mean, is it possible that they -? Normally 17 with a person trying, you know, last second, 18 change their mind, and try to dig in, and try 19 to stop themselves from dying? 20 : Well, that really rarely 21 happens. I've yet to see that happen. I've 22 seen hangings where people simply tie a 23 ligature and slump forward in a chair. It 24 happens pretty quickly. You lose consciousness 25 in, like, less than a minute. And then, at LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that point, there's really no intentional 2 activity, and you start to seize pretty 3 quickly. 4 So, there is a very small sort of envelope 5 of time, and most people are able to not fight 6 that. I mean, I rarely -. I actually can't 7 think of any case where I've seen the clawing 8 things in a hanging, even a non-complete 9 suspension hanging, which I suspect this is. 10 : No problem. SAC , any 11 questions on that? 12 : Yes, doctor. So, the broken 13 hyoid bone and the fractured thyroid. Was 14 there any indication that these bones were 15 damaged -- 16 : Mm-hmm. 17 : -- before the possible - well, 18 I guess the break, right? - but could you be 19 able to tell if there was some kind of damage 20 to those bones before you actually conducted 21 your autopsy? 22 : So, I had an anthropologist 23 look at those to determine exactly that, if 24 they were fractured superimposed on old trauma, 25 or if they were just recent fractures. And LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 their opinion was that they were recent 2 fractures. It was no superimposed trauma. 3 : So, I'm guessing you were 4 familiar with the July 23rd incident where Mr. 5 Epstein tried to take his life initially? 6 : Yes. I was. 7 : And there was a noose found 8 around his neck. We were just trying to get an 9 idea if it's possible that he sustained 10 injuries during that attempt, that could have 11 also assisted, or made things, you know, the 12 broken hyoid and the thyroid cartilage could 13 have also been because of the fact of the 14 initial attempt? Could it have been broken 15 because of the damage already caused by the 16 July 23rd incident? 17 : I think probably not, just 18 based on how they appeared. They don't 19 describe any - the anthropologist - doesn't 20 describe any healing. So, there would have 21 been, if there is a refracture from a prior 22 fracture, there probably would have been some 23 healing visible, and they didn't see that. 24 Also, if he had sustained that kind of 25 trauma the first time, he would have had LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 symptoms. He would have, you know, had 2 difficulty talking and swallowing, and they 3 probably would have noted that clinically. So, 4 that might be a question you direct the people 5 who took care of him after the first attempt. 6 : Okay. 7 : And just a follow up, doctor. 8 You said that people lose consciousness within 9 a minute. Is that pretty standard, you know, 10 when they attempt to hang themselves? Is that, 11 in your practice, a pretty standard time frame? 12 : So, where I'm getting that 13 information from isn't so much my practice as 14 there is a woman in Canada who researched this 15 extensively, and actually had a collection of 16 films of people hanging themselves. 17 They were judicial hangings. They were 18 in-custody hangings where there were actual 19 cameras on prisoners who had managed to hang 20 themselves. And there were people who actually 21 filmed their own hangings. 22 And on those films, there is a really 23 consistent pattern of they hang, in about a 24 minute or less, they become limp, and then they 25 start to seize violently. And it's almost a LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 hundred percent reproducible. So, it's based 2 on sort of evidence that other people have 3 gathered as opposed to anything I've done or 4 researched on my own. 5 : Sure. Okay. No. Thank you. 6 : Is there anything else you 7 observed during the autopsy examination that 8 you thought might seem suspicious or out of 9 place? Like bruising, cuts, things like that? 10 : Nothing at all. 11 : I'm going to show you -. I'm 12 going to share a picture with you. This is 13 part of your -. Bear with me. Can you see 14 this? 15 : Yes. 16 : Do you see the cut above the 17 lip? 18 : Yeah. 19 : On him. 20 : Yeah. I do. 21 : Do you know where -? Do you 22 know what the cause of that? Is that something 23 from the resuscitation, or was that -? 24 : So, there were other photos 25 that will also show cuts on the other side of LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 the lip, inside, and I think that these are 2 from resuscitative efforts. They're pretty 3 commonly seen when there is a mixture of 4 different types of resuscitation, particularly 5 if they've used a mask, or if it's somebody who 6 is - if there was any bystander resuscitation, 7 as well. So, these, to me, appeared 8 resuscitative. 9 Also, there is no, like, real bruising 10 under these. If I had thought these were from 11 some kind of impact to his face, there would be 12 bruising, and if you look at the rest of the 13 autopsy, I have the inside of his mouth 14 photographed really well, and all you see are 15 the petechiae. There is no big bruising. So, 16 these aren't impacts. These are consistent 17 with him probably being already dead when they 18 were trying to resuscitate him. 19 : Okay. And this is, this 20 picture is labeled, "Photos, I.D., Visual 001". 21 This is the picture that was taken by your 22 office. Right? 23 : Yes. It's taken by the 24 mortuary technicians for the purpose of showing 25 it to a family so they can identify the LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 deceased formally for us. 2 : Okay. (Indiscernible 3 *00:25:21). 4 : In the next picture, you can 5 see the petechiae really well on his face, 6 actually. 7 : Yeah. Doctor, that was going 8 to be my question. Is this a good depiction of 9 the petechiae, was you described earlier to us? 10 The blonchyness (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:29) red in 11 his face. Is that what you typically see? The 12 petechiae. 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. 15 : Yeah. You can see it's 16 blotchy, and almost sort of -. It looks almost 17 like a measles rash, but it's small pinpoint 18 hemorrhages. Yeah. 19 : Okay. 20 : And you mentioned that's from 21 sustained pressure on the neck. 22 : Yes. 23 : All right. I'm going to show 24 you a couple other pictures from the same -. 25 Tell me if you recognize this picture. It was LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 also labeled, "INV scene 004." It was provided 2 by your office. Do you recognize this? 3 : I do. 4 : Okay. So, just to give an 5 explanation. Did you have a chance to go by 6 the cell, see the cell itself? 7 : No. They wouldn't let me go 8 in and see the cell itself. I had to rely or. 9 photographs. 10 : Yeah. So, it's a little 11 tough. So, just to give an explanation. Where 12 the picture, the person's point of view, 13 whoever is standing there, that's where the 14 door is, the cell door is. Now, if you look 15 in, there is a little window on the door. So, 16 when we got a chance to interview the 17 correctional officer who found Mr. Epstein, he 18 was basically doing feeding, just to give you 19 an understanding, he was coming there early 20 morning, he was doing the feeding time, and he 21 knocked on the cell, and you see the mattress 22 on the floor? 23 : Yes. 24 : Mr. Epstein's legs were 25 sticking out. So, he was actually - and not, LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 like, to (Indiscernible *00:26:53) - I mean, 2 the mattress sticking out. Mr. Epstein was to 3 the right itself. So, he couldn't see anything 4 to the right. He called out to Mr. Epstein. 5 He didn't answer. So, he walked in. 6 And when he walked in, he couldn't explain 7 it for us, a mess like this, he explained there 8 was a lot of linens, a lot of different stuff, 9 but the mattress was there. And when he found 10 Mr. Epstein - and I'm going to show you another 11 picture - Mr. Epstein was to the right, the 12 part that we can't see in the initial picture. 13 : Yup. 14 : And he was hanging from the 15 corner over here. So, you see then, he 16 mentioned that's part of the noose. And he was 17 hanging low with his bottom, with his buttocks 18 off the ground. So, his feet was out, and his 19 buttocks was off the ground. So -- 20 : Okay. 21 : -- that's how he found him. 22 So, basically, he didn't use a cutter. He 23 actually pulled. So, I think he used all his 24 might, he panicked, so the C.O. kind of pulled 25 the noose, and the noose broke, and Mr. Epstein LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 fell to the ground, and then he wrapped his 2 arms around Mr. Epstein and dragged him out to 3 the outer area. I don't know if I have a 4 picture. Let me go back. He dragged him out 5 here. Can you see where my mouse is? 6 : Yup. 7 : He dragged him out here so he 8 could perform CPR on it, or on Mr. Epstein. 9 : Can I ask you a question 10 quickly? 11 : Yeah. 12 : So, I see that piece of stuff 13 hanging in the corner there. That is not what 14 they brought to me and called the ligature. 15 When this correction officer pulled Jeffrey 16 Epstein out to start CPR, did something remain 17 around his neck? 18 : So, he doesn't recall. He 19 thinks he took it -- 20 : Ah. 21 : -- took it off. He was not a 22 hundred percent sure. Everything happened in 23 the moment in time. One of the questions we 24 were going to ask you is, who provided you with 25 that noose? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 : I believe So, I think that 2 it was given to the investigators by the EMS 3 crew who took over the -. Yeah, that's the 4 picture of how it came to us. It was in the 5 bag. And this is what they brought me. 6 : So, this is labeled, "Path 7 evidence 006." And the picture prior to this 8 was, "INV scene 009." So, this is what they 9 provided to you. And you said this didn't seem 10 This was like a -. You didn't think this 11 was the piece that cost - that was the noose 12 around his neck? 13 : Well, I'm asking because in 14 the photo you showed me a piece of stuff 15 hanging, and you tell me that the correction 16 officer pulled and ripped. This thing that 17 they gave me isn't ripped at all like it would 18 be ripped off of something. It's ripped to 19 create the strip, but it's not ripped off. So 20 21 : Okay. 22 : I'm -. 23 : That's the same question we 24 had. 25 : It's making me wonder if this LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 is even the ligature that they gave me. 2 : All right. So, I'm going to 3 show you another picture. This is in the same 4 set of pictures that you had to -. Sorry. 5 (Indiscernible *00:29:50). 6 : Oh, no, don't do that. 7 : This is labeled "INV scene 8 055." Right? And this is when you -. Let me 9 show you the initial picture again. You 10 notice, there's the entrance when we walk in. 11 This is the little table, stool area right 12 there. 13 : Yes. 14 : This is INV picture 005. 15 There is a toilet here. There is a stool 16 there. Now, we're going to go back to the 17 other picture. You'll notice this to the left 18 of the stool. You see that? 19 : Yes. 20 : You see that little noose 21 laying there? 22 : Yeah. 23 : Now I'm going to give you a 24 close up over here. This is INV scene 015. 25 This seems like there was another noose that LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3, 1 was laying at the scene. I don't know if you 2 can see that a little bit better. 3 : Yeah. 4 : And this seems to have a 5 tear. 6 : It does. 7 : And if you compare it to the 8 other picture that we saw, if he pulled, if 9 this was around Mr. Epstein's neck, to me, it 10 seems like there should have been more 11 Like, it should have been tight, tightened up a 12 lot more. Like, he should have been more 13 wrinkled up because it was wrapped around his 14 neck. Right? As a noose. But it doesn't seem 15 like there was much. It looks like -. Can you 16 explain the difference? By looking at it, what 17 do you think? 18 : Well, what it looks like to me 19 is that it's too tidy. And if you tell me that 20 somebody tore him off of the corner -. Like, 21 when you look at that thing that they showed 22 me, it was never clear to me how that suspended 23 him from anything. All right? I could see him 24 putting the looped part around his neck, but 25 can't see how this suspended him from anything. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 There is no knot hanging anywhere or anything 2 like this. 3 And then, that other thing you showed me 4 that's by the desk apparatus, that is torn, it 5 makes more sense to me because that's got the 6 tearing that the correction officer remembers. 7 Either one of these, in terms of its shape, 8 could have caused the markings on Mr. Epstein, 9 but this one, this second one that you're 10 showing me that was never brought to me, looks 11 like a more likely candidate. 12 : Okay. Do you recall -? Do 13 you know if the initial noose that was brought 14 to you, was there any DNA testing, or any kind 15 of testing done on that noose? 16 : I didn't swab it or anything. 17 We're instructed not to do that just to submit 18 it. So, I am not sure what happened to it 19 after I bagged it up and gave it to evidence. 20 : When you say submit it, what 21 does that mean? 22 : It means that I bag it up 23 again, and submit it as evidence, and then 24 whoever is investigating, the cops, you guys, 25 whoever it is, they decide whether or not to do LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 DNA testing. I don't actually order that. 2 : Okay. 3 : Because it's irrelevant to me, 4 really. 5 : SAC , do you have any 6 questions on the pictures before -? 7 : Yes. I do. Just a follow up. 8 And I think you said this earlier. You said 9 this cloth material could have caused those 10 marks. So, regardless of what noose was used 11 here, we have several in the pictures, but what 12 you're saying is that, this type of material 13 could have caused the marks consistent of what 14 you noticed in your autopsy? 15 : Correct. 16 : Okay. 17 : And your office doesn't have 18 the second noose, you said. Right? 19 : I don't think I ever received 20 this piece of stuff that you're showing me. 21 No. 22 : Okay. And this knot. I 23 know, since you mentioned hangman's noose, and 24 different nooses, do you 25 : Mm-hmm. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 : -- can you tell what kind of 2 knot this is? 3 : Those look like fixed knots, 4 as well. They actually look like granny knots 5 to me. They don't look like knots that will 6 slide and tighten, which is one of the reasons 7 why I said that this could have just as easily 8 caused the markings. 9 : Okay. And based on the knot, 10 this was - as SAC asked - this could have 11 been the one that - this or the other one - 12 could be the one that caused Mr. Epstein's 13 death/ 14 : Yes. 15 : Okay. And this is, what kind 16 of knot is this one? 17 : That looks like another kind 18 of -. It's either a granny knot, or it's an 19 overhand knot, but it's a fixed knot. It's not 20 a sliding knot, like a slip knot or a hangman's 21 knot, which is really just a series of slip 22 knots. 23 : So, this is in reference to 24 packed evidence, picture 006, and the other one 25 was the initial reference about the knot was LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 for INV scene 015. Okay. Anything else, SAC 2 3 : Nothing further. Thank you. 4 : All right. So, a witness, 5 basically an inmate, told the guard man that he 6 saw the C.O. who entered Epstein's cell fall to 7 the ground with Epstein when he attempted to 8 move him, or when he pulled him, whatever, he 9 couldn't describe -. He didn't give us an 10 exact explanation. But he said that he 11 actually saw the C.O. and Epstein fall to the 12 ground. In your examination, did you see any 13 bruising or anything consistent with any falls 14 that Mr. Epstein might have taken? 15 : Nope. 16 : Okay. 17 : But if he landed on top of the 18 guy, I wouldn't have seen much. 19 : Okay. And if he didn't, if 20 he landed on the floor, would there have been 21 bruising being the fact that he was already - 22 if he was already dead at this point. Would 23 there have been bruising on his body? 24 : There might not have been 25 bruising, but what I might have seen might have LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4C 1 been sort of dried, not hemorrhagic abrasions. 2 Particularly if the guy pulling him was a big 3 guy and landed on top of him. That could 4 Even a dead body, if you scrape it across a 5 concrete floor like that, you're going to get 6 some scraping on the skin. I wouldn't see 7 bruising, but I would see scraping most likely. 8 : And he mentioned that he 9 didn't use a cutter. Normal practices, if you 10 see somebody hanging, they use a cutter to cut 11 the rope. 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : He didn't use a cutter. He 14 just yanked on it. Is it possible why him 15 yanking on the rope, trying to yank the rope 16 off, he could have caused - the C.O. - could 17 have caused any of the damage on Mr. Epstein's 18 neck? 19 : He certainly could have 20 augmented it. I see it in hangings without 21 that, but if he was pulling Epstein against the 22 ligature, and it snapped, that could have 23 augmented any damage that was already there, or 24 even created some of it. Particularly, if he 25 did a short, sharp pull. It could have. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. And as far as you 2 recall, there was no bruising, cuts, or 3 anything else that stood out on his body, that 4 could have possibly been, like, defensive or 5 suspicious to you? 6 : Not at all. 7 : Okay. Sorry. I asked a lot 8 of questions, and I'm just making sure I'm not 9 (Indiscernible *00:36:30). SAC , you can 10 ask anything else. 11 : Yeah. , I don't know if 12 you want to move on to toxicology. 13 : Yes. 14 : I know there was a toxicology 15 test done, and, you know, you know, I guess the 16 question is, was there anything found in his 17 system? 18 : Let me double check that. 19 Hang on. I have the case in front of me. As I 20 recall, absolutely nothing, but let me be sure, 21 sure, sure. Since I'm under oath and all. 22 Here we go. Yup. Nothing detected. 23 : And that's, and obviously, 24 contraband substances, but also anything 25 prescribed to him. Any medications that he LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 would have been on? But there was nothing in 2 his system at all? 3 : Nothing in his system at all. 4 Now, our testing doesn't cover every single 5 prescription medication -- 6 : All right. 7 : -- out there. Those are often 8 targeted testing that I need to request. I saw 9 what was in the cell. There were vitamins. 10 There was Tylenol that was not opened. Those 11 things, the Tylenol will show up on our regular 12 testing. As well as, like, the other stuff he 13 was taking. I think he was taking, like, a 14 steroid, as well. None of that showed up. 15 : And in those substances, is it 16 safe to say that it would not have contributed 17 to his death? 18 : Correct. 19 : Yeah. 20 : I just have a few more 21 questions. And before I go. All right. Do 22 you recall that Mark Epstein -? Did you ever 23 deal with a Mark Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein's 24 brother. 25 : I did. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 : Okay. Do you recall that he 2 hired his own medical examiner to be also 3 present for the autopsy? 4 : Oh, yeah. Yup. 5 : Do you remember the name of 6 that medical examiner? 7 : Yeah. So, that was Dr. 8 Michael Baden. 9 : Okay. And they mentioned, 10 they told the OIG that, when they spoke with 11 you, that you needed information from the 12 correctional officer who found Jeffrey Epstein, 13 before you could make the determination on 14 cause of death, and instead of waiting on that 15 information, you actually moved forward and 16 made a determination anyway as suicide. 17 : So, what I did was, we 18 attempted to get the information from the 19 correctional officer, and I also, I wanted to 20 go and see the cell. They wouldn't allow that. 21 I wanted to see some film footage. I was 22 allowed to do that. 23 So, there were a couple of different 24 things I wanted to do before I could ascertain 25 whether or not -. You know, and mostly, in LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 this case, it was being thorough. If he had 2 been a less high-profile person who there 3 weren't people wanting to kill, I would have 4 probably called it a hanging on the day of 5 autopsy. But this was thoroughness that made 6 me look for these things before I called it a 7 suicide. 8 : Understood. 9 : Yeah. It was pretty clear 10 cut. 11 : What information did you need 12 from the C.O.s? Like, if you ended up getting 13 to talk to them. 14 : So, what I ideally would have 15 liked to know was, how was he hanging? And was 16 this thing that they gave me the actual 17 ligature? So, I still don't think we really 18 know that, or at least I'm not as convinced as 19 I would like to be. But that was what I sort 20 of -. Was he fully hanging? Where was he 21 hanging? That kind of stuff. 22 : Okay. I just realized that 23 there's one other picture I wanted to show you. 24 : Oh, good. 25 : This is INV scene 007. If LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you notice, that's a CPAP machine that was 2 assigned to - that was given to Mr. Epstein. 3 : can you show -? I'm not 4 seeing. You need to be -- 5 : Yeah. 6 : Oh, sorry. 7 : -- more width. 8 : I apologize. 9 : We can't see it, 10 Yeah. 11 : How about now? 12 : Yes. 13 : Now, this, it looks like it 14 was, this is the CPAP machine that was given to 15 - assigned to Jeffrey Epstein. And this looks 16 like the cord was inside his room. Is it 17 possible that this cord could have done it 18 also? Been used as a noose. 19 : No. No. The furrow is too 20 broad for a cord. I've seen plenty of cord 21 furrows, and this is nothing like this. This 22 is definitely a furrow from some type of 23 fabric. 24 : Okay. 25 : And not a rope. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Perfect. Okay. Okay. 2 : Excuse me. 3 : Is there anything -? Is it 4 something that C.O.s could have said to you, if 5 you ever got a chance to interview them, that 6 could possibly affect your conclusion on cause 7 of death? 8 : I would have been a little bit 9 more circumspect if there had been another 10 inmate in there with him who had made threats. 11 But even knowing that, that would have been 12 more thoroughness, because this doesn't look 13 anything like a strangulation. So, it would 14 have been more for completeness rather than a 15 big factor in making the determination. 16 : Okay. Based on all the 17 : So, the 18 : -- go ahead. Sorry. 19 : -- sorry. Just to follow up 20 that. So, in the instance, you know, 21 hypothetical, that there was another inmate in 22 that cell, is what you saw possibly consistent, 23 or would be consistent with, like, this other 24 inmate helping or assisting this person hanging 25 themselves? Would that be a possibility? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4; 1 : No. What it would be more 2 consistent with is if the other inmate benignly 3 neglecting, maybe at the request of Mr. 4 Epstein, the fact that he was hanging. You 5 know, don't call them until I'm stuck shaking 6 or whatever. You know? Yeah. 7 : Versus naturally assisting 8 (Indiscernible *00:42:31) -. 9 : It doesn't look anything like 10 a strangulation, or an You can't really 11 assist someone to hang unless they don't have 12 the use of their arms and legs. Otherwise, you 13 really can't do that. 14 : Okay. Makes sense. Okay. 15 Thank you. 16 : Yeah. 17 : I'm sorry, . I cut you 18 off. 19 : No, no. That explains it. 20 Based on all the information you have now, is 21 it your professional opinion that Jeffrey 22 Epstein's cause of death was suicide? 23 : That's his manner of death. 24 His cause of death is hanging, and his manner 25 of death is suicide. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 : Okay. Now, I have to ask the 2 last question. Did anyone attempt to coarse or 3 bribe you into ruling Jeffrey Epstein's death 4 as a suicide? 5 : No. No. There were a lot of 6 rumors, but no. 7 : Okay. SAC 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- anything else? 10 : Yeah. So, just to follow up 11 on that. Any calls, media, family members, 12 that type of thing, that were unwanted, that 13 you received after his death? 14 : I actually did a lot of 15 ducking of the media -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- and refusing to speak to 18 people. I did have some very unpleasant calls 19 with his family, because they weren't happy 20 with the determination of suicide. But it is 21 what it is. 22 : Now, if it was not Jeffrey 23 Epstein, would you, in the normal course of 24 business, speak to the family members as often 25 as you did in this case? LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 : Absolutely. That's one thing 2 that we definitely do as medical examiners. 3 It's a very important part of my job, is 4 conveying the findings to families. The only 5 times that I do not do that is when it's a 6 homicide, for sure, and there is an ongoing 7 investigation, or a case that's suspicious for 8 homicide, then I don't talk to family members 9 because sometimes they're the perpetrators. 10 But when it's as clear cut as this, I always 11 talk to the families. As much as they need to 12 talk to me. 13 : Sure. That's all I had, 14 15 : That's all that I have, too. 16 Is there anything else? Any information you 17 think that might help us in our investigation, 18 or you think wasn't shared in the report, that 19 might be useful to us? You want to share with 20 us? 21 : No. I think I put everything 22 relevant in the report, to make it as clear as 23 possible. 24 : Is there any questions that 25 you think I should have asked that I didn't ask LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or address? 2 : No. I think you were very 3 thorough. 4 : SAC , anything? 5 : And , a quick question 6 for you. We have the whole report with the 7 exhibits and everything? 8 : Yes. You know what? Let me 9 show it. Let me show it to you just to 10 confirm. Let me present this. Bear with me. 11 I just want to make sure. Okay. Can you guys 12 see this? 13 : Yes. 14 : I think Attorney can 15 speak more about it because it looks like she's 16 the one that signed off on it. 17 MS. : Yeah. 18 : (Indiscernible *00:45:29). 19 MS. : Unfortunately - yeah - I'm a 20 little bit of a disadvantage because I am doing 21 this call from my phone, so the images are 22 tiny. 23 : Let me zoom. Is it any 24 better? 25 MS. : Yup. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I think this is a cover 2 letter. This is the letter that we sent to 3 you. And -- 4 MS. : Right. 5 -- where you sent us the 6 report. 7 MS. : And that was approved. That 8 green stamp is an approval from my office. 9 : Okay. And I'm just going to 10 scroll down slowly, for both of you guys, just 11 to make sure, and especially Let me 12 know if you see that there is any records or 13 documents missing, that stands out, that you 14 can only see. 15 MS. : Let me just say, it's going 16 to be very hard to determine that. I mean, all 17 I can tell you, I mean, it's sort of more a 18 presumption of regularity. If we issued a 19 certified copy of the medical examiner case 20 file, that means it's been really carefully 21 vetted and that it has been certified to be a 22 true and exact copy of that file. I am not 23 going to be able to give you any information, 24 on this call, that would be any different from 25 that. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 : No problem. As long as this 2 is the document you sent me, and you say this 3 has everything in it. 4 MS. : It certainly -- 5 : That's fine. 6 MS. : -- it certainly looks like 7 it. It came to you from our Records 8 Department, but I specifically remember 9 approving the release by the Records 10 Department, and it is clear that, you know, 11 that we okayed it, and that it came from the 12 Office of Chief Medical Examiner. And as you 13 know, there is that little red sort of self- 14 protective note that I okayed the release by 15 whoever put the note there. So, it seems to me 16 that this looks exactly like what we would have 17 issued to you. There is no way for me to 18 verify that, looking at it, and I couldn't even 19 do that on, you know, a giant plasma screen, 20 either. 21 : Understood. That's all. 22 That's all. As long as you can say that this 23 is the record. SAC , do you have anything 24 else on that? 25 : No. I appreciate that. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 just want to (Indiscernible *00:47:31) and say 2 that we have the whole report (Indiscernible 3 *00:47:37). So, it sounds like we do. So, 4 thank you. 5 MS. : Yeah. I mean, if there seems 6 to be some gap to you, or there is a reference 7 to something that you don't have, certainly 8 come back to us, but I assume that, by now, you 9 would have noticed anything that clear. 10 : Perfect. Anything else, SAC 11 12 : Nothing further. Thank you. 13 -: , again, thank you 14 so much for taking the time, and we appreciate 15 you talking to us. If there is anything else 16 you think that, hey, you wanted, you think that 17 we didn't ask, or you think you want to share 18 with us, feel free, through Attorney tr 19 reach back out to us, and we'll do another 20 quick interview to catch up on it. 21 : Sure. 22 : And we might have follow up 23 questions. If we do, be patient with us. We 24 might come back to you and say, hey, we just 25 need another quick interview. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063511 1 2 3 4 5 MS. MS. LIMITED OFFICIAL USE : Sure. : If that's fine. : You know where to find us. : Yes. : Absolutely. You're quite 6 welcome. Yup. 7 : And -. 8 MS. : Good luck with everything. 9 : Thank you. And this is 10 Special Agent The time is 4:21 11 p.m. on May 318t, 2022. I am ending the 12 recording. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063512 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of 51: , Transcriber LIMITED OFFICIAL USE EFTA00063513