EFTA00064519.pdf

1 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: 2 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 12, 2019 FENTON TRANSCRIPTION 28720 Roadside Drive, Suite 250 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 991-8002 3 4 1 : Today is Monday, August 1 Basis. Do you have any questions about this 2 3 12. The following will be a voiiiiiii interview of BOP Warden in 2 3 form? : No. 4 furtherance of OIG investigation to be 4 : Would you like time to 5 determined, for the purpose of transcription, 5 review it with an attorney, or would you like 6 will now identify all present in the interview. 6 an attorne here? 7 I'll ask everyone to say and spell their last 7 : For now, I don't need an 8 name, as well as identify their working title 8 attorne . 9 and employer. 9 : Okay. Are you currently 10 I am S ecial Agent , 10 under the influence of any substances, or is 11 Office of the Insiector General. 11 there any reason to prevent you from fully 12 : Special Agent , 12 understanding my questions and answering 13 I, with the FBI. 13 truthfull toda ? 14 . , Warden, 14 : No. 15 Federal Bureau of Prisons. Selling of the 15 : I'll now swear you to the 16 name is first name is , last name is 16 statements you're about to make. Please raise 17 18 . apostrophe as in , Ilis in 17 18 your hand and re.eat after me. I 19 : Thank you. Warden 19 . I, . 20 -- 20 : Hereby solemnly swear or 21 : Um-hum. 21 affirm. 22 : -- you have reviewed and 22 : Hereby solemnly swear or 23 signed Department of Justice OIG Form 226-2 23 affirm. 24 which is Warnings and Assurances of Employees 24 : That the statements that 25 Request to Provide Information on a Voluntary 25 I'm about to make. EFTA00064519 S 6 1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about to make. : That the statements I'm : Shall be the truth and the whole truth. : Shall be the truth and the whole truth. NE Thank you, sir. Um-hum. : Warden would you mind telling us a little bit about your career with BOP? When you started, how you became a Warden? Uh : How you moved up the ranks. : I started out as a Correctional Officer, and I was promoted to a Lieutenant. From there, I went to Special Investigative Agent at our regional office, and then I went from there, I was promoted to Captain, and then I was Associate Warden, and then from there I went to DC as a Chief Internal Affairs, and now in my present position. : Great. How long have you 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been the Warden? 2018. : Okay, great. Just, your role, you've done a lot of internal investigations with the prison and you've worked with the Department of Justice for -- Um-hum. -- moving forward, just as a note for the record, you're aware that failure to be honest with us today would be considered a criminal offense; correct? Yes. : Okay, great. Let's talk a little bit about some overall policies at the prison to start with. Okay. : So, actually let me back up. We're here today to talk about, specifically Jeffrey Epstein. : Um-hum. : The inmate. : Um-hum. : Would you mind just telling us a little bit about when, your : I've been here since May of 7 1 understanding of when he arrived and that type 2 of, when he arrived, how he was placed, where 3 he was laced and the reasons behind that? 4 : I don't remember the S specific date he arrived, but we didn't, what 6 happened was, we weren't told that he was going 7 to be comin to the institution. 8 : Okay. 9 : When he initially came, he 10 was dropped off on the weekend, and we didn't 11 find out until Monday, myself, that he had been 12 placed at the institution. And from then on, 13 we, you know, went through the whole process of 14 the screening, his medical stuff. Just normal 15 procedures that we follow and (Indiscernible 16 *00:04:04 . 17 : Okay. Now when you say 18 "he was dropped off over the weekend", when 19 somebody arrives at the facility, what's the 20 normal -- 21 : I mean typically if 22 somebod 's that high profile -- 23 : Um-hum. 24 : -- we should've been 25 notified and said hey, he's coming in. We 8 1 weren't. 2 : Okay. 3 MEI You know, I mean, we saw it 4 on the news, but it didn't say. They just said S they had him in custody, but we didn't get any 6 formal, I didn't get any formal notice that he 7 had been brought into the institution. 8 So, he was dropped off, and you know, the 9 Lieutenant on shift processed him in and 10 brought him into the institution. We didn't 11 find out or realize it until Monday. 12 : So, it was Monday that you 13 first were officially made aware of it? 14 : That I was made aware. You 15 know, we found out, and I don't remember if it 16 was from looking at the news reports, we put it 17 together that he had been brought into the 18 institution. We went through our Monday 19 morning meeting that we went through. So, 20 that's when -- 21 : When he first arrived, was 22 he placed in general population? Do you know 23 where he was laced? 24 : I don't recall where he was 25 placed when he came in. EFTA00064520 9 10 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 population? 20 21 22 23 24 25 : At some point, he was placed in Special Housing Unit? Yes. Known as the SHU. Right. : how did he end up there? : Well, he was a new commitment. He was high profile. So, we placed him in the Special Housing Unit so we can further evaluate, you know, his status. Is he ready for general population? And we do that with all inmates, but -- EMI Okay. -- and then to see, okay, any separation issues. Any threats to him, before we put him out there in general population. : Was he ever in general : I don't recall. I don't, I'm not sure if it might've been the first day when he came in. Er Okay. But I'm not sure, so I mean, I would have to look at the 37 to confirm. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : But as far as you know, that Monday, the first business day after the weekend he was initially dropped off. Right. : From that point forward, was he ever in eneral population? No. : Okay. What are the policies in terms of, or is there policy that dictates when somebody goes into general population from the SHU after the first arrival? : Well, what we do is we evaluate the individual to see if they're ready for general population, if they can hang, you know -- . Um-hum. -- if they can populate. : Okay. And it's a number of factors. It depends. I mean, if I have a gang member coming in, I'm taking into consideration separation issues on it. If it's, you know, somebody that might've been fraud or bank fraud, then we determine if it's any issues of 11 1 them going into the general population. So, 2 it's a case-by-case basis on how we determine 3 it. 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : Okay. What are the policies in terms of when you're notified if someone enters Special Housing Unit or is dischar ed from Special Housing Unit? : Well what it is is, it's routed the individual, it's called a Release Form. So, several people sign it. They review it. I believe psychology, CMC, the Captain, and it goes to the Associate Warden and then they sign what we call is a Kick-Out. Meaning everybody's reviewed it and said, okay, this person is a ro riate for general population. : Okay. For Mr. Epstein, after that, he was never put in general population• correct? a No. : Was the determination to keep him in Special Housing? What was the communication that goes on there? : Well we, now initially when he came in, it's the goal to determine, okay, can they go to general population. 12 1 : Okay. 2 So, between evaluating him, 3 at the same time, we're looking at saying, 4 okay, can he o to general population. S : Um-hum. 6 : So, it's a dual role that 7 we're oin to -- 8 : Sure. 9 : But I had gotten word, and I 10 don't recall the date, where from my Regional 11 Director which stated he's not to go to general 12 population until further notice. 13 : The Regional Director, 14 where is that in the chain of command for BOP? 15 : We have five regional 16 offices. 17 : Okay. 18 =, Each region has a Regional 19 Director. 20 : Okay. 21 11.1 This is the Northeast 22 Region. 23 : Okay. 24 IN Where we have 21 2S institutions. So, he supervises and is in EFTA00064521 13 14 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 charge of the 21 institutions. I : Okay. So, is he -- : (Indiscernible *00:08:37). -- your direct supervisor? : He's my director supervisor. : Oka . 'Who is that? . . phonetic sp.). . . ? Yeah. : And Mr. told you, do you recall if it was verbally or an email? Phone call? : We had talked about it, too, but I would have to check if there was an email to go with it. But we did talk and said, hey, we're going to hold off on putting him out in general o ulation. : Okay. Do you recall when you officially were, you and Mr. , spoke about this? : I don't want to give you the wrong date. But it was within that, you know, maybe a cou le weeks after he arrived. : Okay. So, it was a few weeks after he arrived -- 1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a Right. : Okay. After Mr. told you to keep him, or it was agreed upon -- : Um-hum. • -- to keep him in Special Housi Right. : Who did you notify that he was to stay in the Special Housing Unit? How does that communication -- : So, what it does is I get my exec staff together -- : Um-hum. : -- which is my Associate Wardens, the Captain, my exec, and we have our meetings, and I tell them he's not, you know, I lay out the specific instructions. He's not to go out to general population. And -- : Were there, sorry. Co ahead. No. : And that's basically how we start. IlWOkay. Yeah. 15 1 : Were there any other 2 specific directions or instructions given to 3 the staff re arding him? 4 : Well, so at the time of him 5 staying in there, we had to find him initially 6 a roommate. 7 : Okay. 8 IM! So, and it's hard especially 9 in Special Housing Unit when you've got gang 10 members in there that are not appropriate to be 11 housed with. So, we came up with, I came up 12 with , who was in there. White 13 male, probably be able to cope with him. And 14 that's typically how we, you know, that's part 15 of the evaluation process. 16 : Is it standard for inmates 17 in Special Housing Unit to have cellmates? 18 : We typically would like for 19 them to have it. 20 : Sure. 21 W I But certain situations 22 dictate that they can. If an inmate's a total 23 separation from a group, and we get word from 24 US Attorney's office or the arresting agents 25 that, hey, he's to be totally separated, then 16 1 they would be housed by themselves. They could 2 have an incident in the institution, you know, 3 for example our gang members, somebody has an 4 issue, and for example, the Bloods, then we S have to say hey, let's separate him from there. 6 You know? 7 : Was there any directions 8 specifically that Mr. Epstein was to have a 9 cellmate at all times? 10 : From psychology when -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- said hey, that he's 13 required, he needs to have a cellmate at all 14 times. 15 : Okay. And that occurred 16 later on? When he first arrived, there was no 17 specific directions regarding that; correct? 18 : No, it wasn't. 19 : Okay. 20 : Wait, let me. 21 : Sure. 22 : You mean when he first came 23 in were we talkin about him having a cellmate? 24 : Initially. 25 : I don't recall any talks EFTA00064522 17 18 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about him. MIW Okay. Initially, and trying to : figure out when he first came in, how he was housed. I don't recall how he was housed when he first came in. but -- : Okay. The MCC is no stranger profile -- • Right. • -- inmates. Generally speaking, how do you normally, or generally handle these type of high profile inmates? Any other special considerations or concerns. How does this work? : Again, you come in. We evaluate him to determine, okay, if they can go out to general population or not. We've had, you know, we've had a bunch that come in that were able to go out. We hadIIIIIII(phonetic sp.), you know, the phone that, I don't know if ou recall, Indiscernible *00:12:41). : Okay. • Him. So, when he first came 19 1 just going over some of the overall high- 2 profile inmates and the general -- 3 : Um-hum. 4 : -- evaluation of them. 5 Going back to, you said earlier that a few 6 weeks had occurred. You and the Regional 7 Director discussed keeping Epstein in the 8 Special Housin Unit. 9 : Um-hum. 10 : How often was the Regional 11 Director bein briefed on Epstein? 12 : I guess the situation 13 dictated it. If something happened, then we'd 14 notify him, or he needed some questions for 15 him, he would call me. But I don't want to, I 16 don't recall the specific amount of times. But 17 we were in contact. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 Frequent contact. 20 : Okay. How often were you, 21 are you notified differently of high-profile 22 inmates or how often were you being aware or 23 notified of E stein's housing situation? 24 : Well, I mean, he was in the 25 Special Housing Unit. So, I knew where he was. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in, you know, he was high profile. So, we brought him in to determine -- FEMALE VOICE: Excuse me. : Yeah. FEMALE VOICE: Can you guys step out here for just a moment? at 10:55 a.m. (tape We're resuming We, pausing the interview paused). the interview with Warden Yeah. : (Indiscernible *00:00:14). The time is now 10:56. Joining the interview room is Assisting United States Attiiiiiiirom the Southern District of New York, MS. , I apologize. Can you spell your name for transcription purposes? MS. : Sure. . Thanks. : Thank you. Before we were 20 1 Okay. 2 =I So, it wasn't like I had to : 3 be updated as to where he was. I knew where he 4 was. 6 =I Okay. I mean, I knew that he went : 7 on his attorney visits, spent the whole day 8 there. Would be the first one in, last one 9 out. So, I mean, that's what I knew. And then 10 I kind of (Indiscernible *00:02:06) with the 11 attorneys. I had some outside attorneys 12 complain about, you know, they were taking up 13 the attorney room. So, I knew that was, you 14 know, those issues were coming up with the 15 attorne room. 16 : Okay. Going back to 17 general olicies at the -- 18 • Um-hum. 19 : -- within the BOP, 20 actuall when E stein arrive -- 21 • Um-hum. 22 • -- I think we already 23 covered this, but just to, were any special 24 arran ements or considerations given to him? 25 : As far as -- EFTA00064523 21 1 : Obviously you said earlier 2 he was ut in the SHU on Monday. 3 : Right. 4 : After, was it, at that S point, was there any issues that you're aware 6 of regarding him? Anything that you needed to 7 be aware of other than just who he was? 8 : No. lust who he was and the 9 basic screenin . The intake screening. 10 : Okay. At the time he 11 first arrived, did you have any, was there any 12 notification of any mental health concerns? 13 : No, not that I know of. 14 : Okay. How -- 15 : Are you talking about the 16 weekend he came in, or -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : (Indiscernible *00:03:19). 19 : First arrival. 20 : That weekend, I don't know. 21 But I know afterwards, he was medically 22 assessed and they were, you know, our health 23 service department assessed him and he, I think 24 he might have told him that he had certain 25 medications. 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 Okay. When -- -- that he was taking. : When inmates come into the MCC, are they all screened for mental health issues or medical issues? : Well, yes. They come in, you're screened for your medical. The unit team screens you and psychology screens you. But -- : What timeframe does that occur? • Typically like with him, he came in on the weekend. So, it depends if there was a psychologist. Maybe the next day someone would go screen him, the on-call psychologist. But, you know, or Monday if someone came in. But typically the on-call psychologist is there through the weekend and will screen them. : Who is notified of the results of those screenings? in of? : Of the medical screen and psychological screenings, who gets notified of that? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 : As far as what? If they find something in there? : Yes. : Like what would be an example? I mean -- : Any medical concerns that people need to be aware of. Any psychological issues. How does that information get disseminated? : Because when we talk about medical issues, some of that falls under privacy issues. : Um-hum. So, you know, it's not going to -- : Okay. -- just like that. : Sure. But as far as psychological, if it was something that psychologists did an interview and said, hey, there's a mental health issue or something, then she would, you know, she would let her Associate Warden know. She would let me know that, hey, there's some issues. 24 1 : Okay. And when he first 2 you made aware of any medical or 3 regarding him? 4 : Mental health, I don't 5 recall any mental health. But I was told that 6 he was on certain medications or whatever. But 7 it was eneral. It wasn't -- 8 : Okay. 9 • -- anything major. 10 : Okay. And just, and 11 that's a general policy for all inmates that 12 arrive? 13 : The screening, yeah. 14 : lust the medical 15 screenin . The all get that? 16 : Right. 17 : Is there any, as a result 18 of those screenings, is there any, does it have 19 any bearing on where they're placed, whether 20 it's special housing or general population? 21 : I mean typically if you do, 22 like I said, if you do an intake screening and 23 the individual comes in and they have no 24 issues, no separation issues, and, you know, 25 then they can populate like anyone else. But arrived, were mental issues EFTA00064524 25 1 if there are issues with them going out in 2 general population; i.e., safety issues, then 3 you would be laced in the Special Housing. 4 : Okay. : Until we could further 6 evaluate if ou could go to general population. 7 : If someone during the 8 mental health screening, the mental health, the 9 psycholo ist deemed them to be suicidal -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- what are the suicidal 12 watch olicies as it relates to that? 13 : So, if the psychologist was 14 to say, hey, they're suicidal, then they would 15 be placed on suicide watch. 16 Okay. 17 11.1 1 Now if the psychologist is 18 not there and someone exhibits suicidal 19 ideations or statements or thoughts, then 20 they're laced on suicide watch. 21 : Can you explain to me what 22 suicide watch is, where it is in the MCC -- 23 : It's on the second floor of 24 the institution, on the same floor of the 25 hospital. 26 1 Okay. 2 111, And it's a cell, and if you : 3 go on suicide watch, you're placed in a smock. 4 Okay. 5 =I That covers you and then : 6 you're watched for 24 hours. 7 : Now the smock, is that 8 made of a er or -- 9 It's cloth. 10 : Cloth? 11 It's like, you ever see 12 those movies where they have those heavy bomb 13 vests? 14 Uh -- 15 1.1 It's something, I mean, I : 16 don't want to you know, say, but it's something 17 like that. 18 : Okay. 19 : And it just hangs. 20 : Sure. 21 : Hangs on them just like 22 that. So -- 23 : And you said they're 24 monitored for 24 hours. How are they, is it -- 25 There's a companion sitting 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 there. An inmate. 11 In the cell? : No. Outside the cell. : Okay. : It's a cell where you sit and observe. : Okay. Is the companion another inmate or a staff? : No, it's a trained inmate companion. Now, we have four cells. If those cells get full, then we have to move them up to the Special Housing Unit and then put a staff watch on them. : Okay. What policies are in place for suicide watch as it relates to staff response, notification, how people get notified, if they're moving from suicide watch to off suicide watch. How does that work? : That works through psycholo : Okay. : Psychology evaluates and they'll say, okay, we've evaluated him and, you know, wherever we're going, typically you always usually go from the Special Housing Unit 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 to suicide. So, they'd say, okay you know what, the 're ready to go back up. : Okay. What role, how does the program, is the psychologist the program coordinator? the department. : The chief psychologist runs : Okay. And then she has various psychologists that work under her. : Okay. And then evaluate because we have a different mission as far as we have a forensic mission. So, we get a lot of forensic studies in the institution. 11.1 Okay. And then we have a regular psychologist also that handles the inmate population but they work together and they handle ever thin . : Okay. Who's ultimately responsible for placing somebody on suicide watch or off suicide watch? : Well placing it, a staff member comes and says hey, this guy is EFTA00064525 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 suicidal. You can place him on suicide watch. : Okay. Anybody in the institution can do that? : Yeah. If I come upon an inmate that's saying, "Hey, I'm going to kill myself." Okay, we get him on suicide watch. Psychology comes and, you know, evaluates them and then comes u with a plan. : Within the psychology department -- Um-hum. -- or the medical department there in mental health, who there ultimatel makes that decision? : I believe, and don't quote me on this. I believe the psychologists. Okay. You know, they're trained professionals. So, they can make a decision and they consult with the Chief in, you know, determining okay what's the plan of action to move forward. : And are you, when someone's placed in suicide watch, are you notified of that? 30 1 : Yeah. They send out a form 2 every day stating like who's on suicide watch, 3 who's onpsyche observation. So -- 4 : Okay. S : -- we're aware of who it is 6 and then they'll send out a form if there's no 7 one on there. 8 : You said earlier that 9 while on suicide watch, there was an observer. 10 Right. 11 : How does an inmate become 12 an observer? 13 : It's an inmate companion. 14 : A companion, I'm sorry. 15 : So, it's a trained program. 16 So, they have to go through training. They 17 have to take courses, and then they become 18 eligible to become a companion. 19 : Who authorizes the use of 20 an inmate com anion? 21 : The psychology department 22 runs that. So -- 23 : Do you have any input as 24 the Warden in selecting or training or 25 implementing the inmate companion program? 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 In No. : Does every institution have an inmate companion program? Yes. VS. : Who's the Chief Psychiiiiiiiiiill: sp.). : And Ms. is the one who is ultimately responsible for determining if someone is on suicide watch and removing them; correct? (phonetic 31 : Well in conjunction with our staff. 1.1 Okay. Because you could be, a psychologist is assigned to the individual when they're working a plan with them. And if they come to the determination that hey, you know what, they no longer need to be on suicide watch. : Okay. But as the clinical director she's ultimately responsible. : She's not the clinical. She's the Chief Psychologist. 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 1.1 : Okay. Clinical Director is a separate sition. : Okay. I apologize for that. a : That's fine. : Thank you for clarifying. : Okay. : Who in the medical staff, just for my clarification, who in the medical staff is ultimately responsible for removing somebod from suicide watch? : The psychology department determines to remove somebody from -- : So, who in the psychology department? : Again, it depends on who's evaluating the inmate. : Okay. So -- : And so we have one, two, three, really_we have, (Indiscernible *00:12:26) IIIII, uh, four. We have four psycholo ists on staff. : You have four psychologists on staff. And any one of those EFTA00064526 33 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 four can remove somebody? : Can remove somebody. : Do those four have, who's those four supervisors? Dr. IIIIIIii : Dr. Yeah. : What authority does she have to overrule them? : And I'm not a psychologist - WI-- to know what procedures : Sure. they use Mr -- Um-hum. -- or what conversation they have to determine if she's going to overrule them. I mean, she's the supervisor, and it's just like with any, you know, profession you have. Mr Right. If I come up with some reasonin -- I Um-hum. S In saying hey, I don't agree 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with your decision, then we debate it and then we ultimately come to a decision. : Okay. As to yay or nay. : Okay. : So, it's kind of the same thing. : While on suicide watch, you said there's a 24-hour companion. What does staff do for the inmates while they're on suicide watch? : Well we have a camera, well they're trained to, there's a phone there. So, let's say something happened where an inmate's trying to do harm to himself. They pick up the phone and they call for assistance, because it goes directly to control center, and we respond accordingly to it. But we also in our control center, while the individual is on suicide watch, there's a camera there. . Okay. To view -- : What specific training does staff get as it relates to the suicide 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 watch? : Once a year during our annual training, we have suicide prevention trainin . : Okay. During our annual training. : And that's required for all --a All employees. : What does that training cover? : Suicide signs, prevention, coping, just anything pertaining to suicide, sir. Signs to look for. : Um-hum. Um -- : Is there any specific staff that are more trained, or specifically trained for this area of the prison? : Our Special Housing Unit staff get quarterly suicide prevention trainin . : Okay. Is that part of something the MCC does independent, or is that policy dictated? How does that -- 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 : That's our policy dictates that the et training. : Okay. That's BOP policy; correct? IM Yes. : Okay. When someone, you said that any staff member at the BOP can place somebody on suicide watch? : Yes. : Is there any paperwork or documentation for that that they have to fill out? : No. Basically they'll tell that, you know, that hey we need to place him on watch, and we'll place him on watch, and then we'll contact psychology. . Okay. To come in and talk to them. : Okay. There's no referral that sa s "I laced inmate" -- : No. Psychology will handle it --IN Okay. -- here and there, in their notes and their documentation that they were EFTA00064527 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 placed on it when they were placed on it. So, the psychology department is responsible for documenting when people come in in treatment. : We, you know, we have what we call a daily log in the -- : Um-hum. : -- institution. So, the log would annotate somebody was placed on suicide watch also. : Okay. Is there any specific forms or reports that get filled out when somebod is removed from suicide watch? : I believe psychology would do those forms and saying in their reports why they were removed and if they're ready to be released. =I Do you get those forms? I don't get the special medical ones. I just, with the notification that, you know, with the one that email that goes out -- Um-hum. -- that the individual was released from suicide watch. 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 : Do you get notified, you just said you get notified in the email that somebod 's removed or -- : It's an email that the psychology department puts out stating who's on suicii2I22 11 tls been removed. M : Is that a daily list? Like they send it once a day, or when someone new comes on and off? How does that -- . It's a daily one. And -- : Okay. And it states who's on watch, who's, you know, who's got released, and : Who does that get disseminated to? It's a group. It's a group email that gets sent to all department heads, Captain, Lieutenants, everybody in the need to know. : This is the supervisors within the institution? The Lieutenants, the Captain. (Indiscernible *00:17:07). : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 : And, don't quote me on that, but I need to look at the chain -- Okay. -- to see who's actually on it. But -- : But it's not an institution-wide email? : It is kind of sent out institution wide because you have the different departments on it. So, you can say it's institution wide. : Not every person in the institution ets that email, though? No. I don't -- : Okay. Just not an MCC all type of -- a: : No, it's not an all staff. : Okay. Yeah. : What is the expectation of the department heads and the supervisors and the Lieutenants and Captains once they get this email? What are they supposed to do with that? : I mean, it's just a notification that the individual's being 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 removed from suicide watch. So, it depends on where they're going. So, if they're going back to Special Housing Unit, so it's notification that hey, this person's been taken off. We have nobod on watch right now. : Okay. Are they supposed to disseminate that? What are they supposed to do with that information? Are they supposed to tell an bod where they -- : Well, I mean when that individual is released -- =I Um-hum. Wherever they're going for, they're going to be notified by psychology that they're coming directly -- : Okay. -- to you. : Okay. So, it was just an accountabilit : Okay. -- thing just to know that hey, this erson is getting off of watch. : So, psychology will notify whatever unit they're going back to? EFTA00064528 41 1 : Well, it depends where 2 you're going back to. Typically I always go to 3 Special Housin Unit down. 4 : Okay. : And typically when you do, 6 let's say an individual has tried to commit 7 suicide. It's an infraction. So, they usually 8 have an incident report that goes beyond that. 9 So, you have to come up to the Special Housing 10 Unit anyway before so that that infraction can 11 be resolved. 12 : Okay. 13 =I So, there are a number of 14 aspects of, you know, how. Did you go straight 15 back or if you don't go back there. 16 : And this email that 17 psychology sends out with the list of who's in 18 and who's out of suicide watch -- 19 : Who's on watch, yeah? 20 : -- is that once a day or 21 twice a day? Is that morning and evening 22 thing? 23 : It depends. 24 : Okay. 25 : When you come in in the 42 1 morning, they could say, you know, this is 2 who's on watch, and then you get another one 3 statin who's been released off of watch. 4 : Okay. Is there any policy 5 or standard operation procedure on how 6 (Indiscernible *00:19:21) that email gets sent 7 out? 8 : How what? 9 : How frequent that email -- 10 : No. 11 : Okay. But it should be at 12 least once a da ? 13 : That's when they send it 14 out. I don't -- 15 : Okay. When somebody is 16 removed from S ecial Housing -- 17 Um-hum. 18 : -- and placed in suicide 19 watch on the second floor -- 20 : Um-hum. 21 : -- is anything done to 22 their cell in Special Housing? Is there any 23 precautions or anything that go into that? 24 : So, typically let's say you 25 do leave, and it depends on how much space we 43 1 have. We reall don't have that much space. 2 Okay. 3 : So, usually that cell, 4 depending on if when they were removed from the 5 cell, if they had a cellmate. So, what happens 6 is that individual's property is removed, and 7 we could possibly put somebody else in that 8 cell. 9 Okay. 10 . Um -- 11 : And again, the suicide : 12 watch versus psychological, the psyche eval 13 that, you said that happened right away when 14 someone first comes in the prison; correct? 15 17 . Well I 16 : A psyche eval? I didn't say what you 18 said before that. You said -- 19 A psychological eval. 20 Okay. 21 : I want to clarify, earlier : 22 you said that people, inmates get that when 23 they first come into the prison; correct? 24 : Yeah. Psychologically when 25 they initially have to come and actually 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 perform -- Okay. -- an initial intake screenin . : Is there a level below suicide watch? Well we also have what we call a osvche observation. : Okay. And I think the best way to describe that would be it's a step-down from suicide watch. For example, we might have a mental health inmate that is just mentally, you know, out there. So, we'll put them on psyche observation. They haven't said they're going to hurt themselves, but they have the potential to do it. Somebody might be on narcotics and acting erratic and you don't know what they're on. So, they might end up doing it. But it's a different type of observation because it's not as strip ent as suicide watch. Okay. MS. : Can you explain what that means? What are the requirements when an EFTA00064529 45 46 1 inmate is on psyche eval, or psyche 2 observation? 3 : If they're on psyche 4 observation, we are not necessarily putting S them in a smock. You know? You can still have 6 your regular clothing. We're just observing 7 your behavior and that. So, that's the 8 difference. 9 MS. : And does the psychologist 10 stop b ever day? 11 : They're treated the same way 12 as somebody that's on suicide watch. They're 13 evaluated, come up with a plan. They're ready 14 to be released. Keep them on, more along those 15 lines. 16 MS. : Well is someone on psyche 17 evaluation, do they have an inmate companion 18 watchin them? 19 : Psyche obs also has an 20 inmate companion. So, anybody in that area has 21 an inmate watchin them. 22 : As the Warden, do you have 23 any input on the determinate if someone's in 24 psychological observation, in suicide watch or 25 observation status? Do you have any input on 1 that? 2 : I don't overrule medical 3 decisions. I'm not a doctor. 4 Um-hum. S 1.1 1 If they come to me and say : 6 this is warranted whether it's medical care or 7 not, I don't -- 8 : Okay. 9 MS. : But you're briefed on it? 10 I'm briefed on it. Yes. 11 MS. : Is that orally? 12 : Orally they'll come and say, 13 well we'll discuss an inmate saying, hey, he 14 has mental issues. I feel that they need to be 15 placed here or there. And I'm going with your 16 evaluation. I'm not going to, and I have good 17 psychologists. So, I trust their judgment. 18 MS. : Can an inmate be taken off 19 of suicide watch by Dr. or her staff 20 without consulting you? 21 : They can. The doctor 22 decides who's coming off of watch. So, they 23 can make the determination and, you know, they 24 send up to the Associate Warden, the Captain, 25 and it will come to release and if they're 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 going off it. So, it doesn't -- MS. But do they -- -- have to necessarily, it's not my ap,iir MS. : Do they typically consult you when that happens? : Depending on, you know, if it's the case, you know? Who it is, you might be, like I said, a high profile individual they would say, "Hey, we're taking him off of watch. We're doing this." So, we'll be following the plan S.-- : When it comes to Epstein, leffre stein E -- SII Um-hum. -- he was in the mental health program. Can you just tell us your understanding of his involvement with the psychologist at MCC? : Um, let me back-track. : Sure. : It's not a mental health program. Okay. Um -- 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111! Being, I guess, reviewed by Sorry. psycholo : Sure. -- they're following him. He was on their case. 1111:1 Okay. And you want to know what I knew about it? Ml! Yes. Again, he was under their care. They were evaluating him, and, you know, going through their protocol to determine why he was on watch. If he was on suicide watch, can he come off of suicide watch? Was he suicidal? Thins like that. : At any time, were you aware or notified of him being suicidal or havin an suicidal ideations or attempts? : Well we had an incident where he was in the cell with Okay. -- that it might've been a suicide attempt and it might not have been a suicide attempt. So, we followed the protocols 48 EFTA00064530 1 2 3 4 S 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 and put him on watch. There was also an internal investigation where he was interviewed and his cellmate was interviewed, and he basically denied Indiscernible *00:25:35). : When you say "he denied", : He said -- -- or Epstein? : No, Epstein stated that, "He I didn't try to kill myself." And then said that he was sitting in the cell. He thought he was having a heart attack. So, I forget the words psychology used to determine what their conclusion was as far as the actual act. •M Okay. : Did you review the incident re ort for the suicide attempt? : I reviewed the investigative report that the Lieutenant interviewed both of them, took their statements, and all that because the review process goes from, the Lieutenant initiates it. It goes to the Captain, Associate Warden, and myself. And then I, uh, sign off on it. 50 1 MS. : Did you speak with Dr. 2 after she had consulted with Mr. Epstein 3 when he was laced on suicide watch? 4 : Um, yes. We have SHU 5 meetings, and we have it once a week, and 6 Epstein was brought up, and she talked about 7 Mr. Epstein. 8 MS. ' After the suicide attempt? 9 Yes. 10 MS. : What day of the week is 11 the SHU thin t pically? 12 : It's Thursdays. 13 NS. : All right and -- 14 Right. 15 MS. -- what happens at the SHU 16 meetin s? 17 : It's a list where we go 18 around and we talk about every inmate. We have 19 inmates that are in there for infractions, 20 criminal issues, from your office, a high- 21 profile guy might come in. So, we just talk 22 about, okay, what's the status. If we call in 23 a disciplinary citation, that means they've 24 been sanctioned and they're doing time, and 25 then we look at the release date. We have some 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 in there pending investigations. Cellphone introduction. Drug introduction. So, that goes through the investigative process, and then we have, you know, we also have our SAMs (phonetic sp.) inmates that are housed in there. So, we basically discuss and talk about every inmate. MS. : And who attends these meetin s? : Myself, all the Associate Wardens, the Unit Managers, psychology, the Captain, the SHU Lieutenant, the Investigative Lieutenant. So, we just have everyone there that's involved in the -- MS. : And what's your understanding of whether the SHU Lieutenant or the Captain brief out the duty Officers in the SHU about the outcome of that SHU meeting every week. : I don't understand what you mean. MS. : So, do you have an understanding of whether, because the duty Officers are not present in the SHU meeting; 52 1 correct? 2 No. 3 MS. : Do you have an 4 understanding of how, for instance, if you tell 5 the Lieutenant, I want this done in the SHU, 6 will the Lieutenant then tell his duty Officers 7 after the meeting? 8 : Well, the duty officer is 9 supposed to make rounds throughout the 10 institution when they're on duty to observe and 11 report if anything is not right. And then if 12 we have incidents, they make notifications, you 13 know, to the re ion. 14 MS. : To the region? 15 : To, like let's say we have a 16 fight. 17 MS. : Um-hum. 18 : Or maybe like you said, a 19 suicide attempt. So, they have to contact the 20 Regional Duty Officer. That's their 21 notification. They make the Regional Duty 22 Officer, and then it moves up the chain that 23 way, and then I have to make my notifications, 24 which I make my notifications to the Regional 2S Director. EFTA00064531 53 1 MS. : Okay. And my question is, 2 does any information, do you have an 3 understanding of whether any information that's 4 conveyed in these SHU meetings gets briefed S down to the line Officers who are responsible 6 for patrollin the SHU? 7 : Right. 8 VS. : It does? 9 : Yeah. The SHU Lieutenant is 10 there, and he's in the meeting, he or she is in 11 the meeting, and they're talking to their staff 12 on what needs to be done or the status, you 13 know. We're going in and we determine if 14 somebody can be released, then that will be 15 conveyed back that hey, an individual can be 16 released. 17 MS. : So, you were saying that 18 after the July 23rd suicide attempt, there was a 19 Thursda SHU meeting? 20 : Right. 21 MS. : In which Dr. 22 discussed at least her initial observations of 23 Mr. E stein? 24 : Well, she would initially 25 discuss it there, but she would also initially, 55 1 Monday. I have to check, did I take a extra 2 day or not? I'm not sure, but the 29th, I 3 should've. I would've been back. 4 MS. : So, that Thursday meeting 5 which looks like would've been August 1st, you 6 were resent at? 7 : Yes. 8 MS. : And what was discussed 9 durin the SHU meeting? 10 : The SHU meeting, we'll 11 discuss every inmate. Every inmate on the 12 list, what's their status? Updates and all 13 that stuff. 14 MS. : Okay. And specifically 15 with res ect to Epstein, what was discussed? 16 : I don't recall specifically. 17 I know we would've talked about him. We 18 would've probably talked about, you know, his 19 psychological status and I got to remember on 20 the first, he was probably back in the Special 21 Housing Unit. So, we were probably, you know, 22 talking about his housing conditions, what's he 23 doing, and usually the conversation was during 24 the day he was down at the attorney visits, you 25 know? 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 whoever, you know, if the Warden is there, initiate it to the AW. So, that would be something immediate that she would say, hey, he's on watch and this happened. MS. : And what happened at that first SHU meeting after the suicide attempt? : The week of July 22nd to the 26th, I was on leave. MS. Okay. : So, I was, you know, I was getting called. So, I don't know the specifics, but I was aware of, you know, I got called that hey, there was an attempt and the protocols were followed. MS. : Okay. : Notifications were made. MS. : Okay. So, the following week which I think is the week of the 29th. The 29th or the 30th, yeah. : You were back in the MS. office? : That Monday. So, if you have a calendar I can look at it. MS. _: I think it's the 29th -- : So, yeah. So, the 29th is a 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 And then there were certain exams that we had to do that we wanted to get done on him. And then we discussed that. MS. : Uh, what kind of exams? : Physicals and then, you know, and I don't know if that was before or after his sleep apnea machine that he was, you know, re uestin MS. : Um-hum. Because typically, you know, you have to go through the fitting and the process, but, you know, we allowed that one to come in. We checked it, security wise, and said it was fine to come in, and we got it. So, I think we might have been discussing that, more along those lines. But we discuss every inmate in there. I don't specifically remember it. I know we would've talked about what the issues were pertainin to him. MS. : Um, let's go back to -- : Um-hum. -- the suicide attempt. Okay. : You said that you were on EFTA00064532 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 leave that week, but you were notified by your Associate Warden? Associate Warden, yes. MS. : Okay. Were you receiving daily u dates? : Not, I mean, they called me during the day the first time that it happened. Hey, this is what happened. He's on watch. And then the next day, you know, he was still on watch. So, there was really no, I didn't need that much updates because we knew he was on watch. MS. : Okay. Um -- MS. : And you notified your Regional Director? : I notified my Regional Director. And then while I was on leave, my Regional Director was also in contact with my acting AW. MS. MS. : Did the -- Acting Warden, I'm sorry. : Did the Regional Director convey any directions to your AW during that time? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 : I believe just the basics, you know. Keep him updated what's going on because at the time he was under psychology's care. MS. . Um-hum. : So, once they're in that, there's really not that much input to go on because they're on watch. MS. : And then Epstein was downgraded from suicide watch to psyche observation. MS. second floor? MS. change? : Psyche observation. : While he was still on the Yes. : Were you notified of that : Yes, that he was on psyche obs. MS. : Okay. And did you discuss that with Dr. at all? : Yeah. We talked about it. Again, it was, you know, him going back up to the Special Housing Unit. Although he wasn't suicidal, it was just a matter of, okay, who 59 1 are we goin to house him with? 2 MS. Um-hum. 3 : You know, coming to that 4 decision and then that would give her more time 5 to work with him if she needed. 6 MS. : 212L Did you have a 7 discussion with Dr. 'I'll' about whether she 8 felt he was still suicidal? 9 : Again, if the psychologist 10 tells me that he's ready and he goes, I don't 11 question medical judgment. I trust her 12 judgement. If she says he's not suicidal and 13 he's ready to go back, then we trust her 14 judgment. 15 YS. : And she did -- 16 : Because she -- 17 MS. -- tell you that? 18 : She said he was ready to go 19 back. He wasn't suicidal and that he was ready 20 to go back. 21 MS. : Did you review any of her 22 reports or the sychologist's reports -- 23 I don't -- 24 VS. -- during the time he was 25 on the second floor? 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 : No. I don't review any medical files. MS. : And he came back to the SHU on the 30th, is that right? Uh, yes. : Okay. Um-hum. MS. : And what discussions did you have, let's start with Dr. , about the conditions of his confinement in the SHU? : She just said to get him in, you know, we're going to put him, get him a cellmate because typically every inmate that, you know, is on suicide or whatever, we say, okay, we're going to give him a cellmate. So, that was when we went through the process of figuring out, okay, who could we possibly put him in with? Um, the pickin s were slim. wait, no. So, I came u with , and no there ori ecause of , he had been ut down VS. _: Um-hum. : So, what happened was, we had to come up with some more inmates. So, I came up with three. It was, I believe, EFTA00064533 61 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and who was the other one? We had another sex offender in there that we were going to put him in there, and he said, "If he comes in here, it's going to be a problem." So, we didn't put him in there. So, we ended up putting in there. MS. : Um-hum. , an older gentleman. He couldn't be in the institution because it was cooperating, so we figured that was a good fit, and then I sent an email of the three to the Director's Chief of Staff I sent an email to. MS. And what is his name? (phonetic sp.). MS. : Okay. And so you emailed him, here are the three -- : Here are the three -- -- possible -- -- possible ones. : Okay. Right. Did ou tell 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. : Did you tell Mr. that he needed to have a cellmate? : Yes. That's what the discussion was, for a cellmate. So, I sent that up, spoke with my Regional Director. I believe he received it too, and came to the conclusion would probably be the best fit for him. So, we put him in the cell with MS. : Is there a policy about whether an inmate needs to have a cellmate after the 've been taken off of suicide watch? : There's no policy, but it's sound correctional judgment. I mean even if an individual is not on suicide watch, and you're in the Special Housing Unit, you typically want somebody in there with them. MS. Um-hum. : Because, I mean, you never know what could happen. So, just for somebody to talk to, you know, pass the time. So, you typically put somebody in there unless again we're in a situation where they're just totally separated from somebody -- MS. : Um-hum. 63 1 : -- and we can't put them in 2 there because it becomes a life safety issue. 3 MS. : How long after someone is 4 taken off suicide watch would you typically 5 direct that the have a cellmate? 6 : It would depend on the 7 situation, because you could be getting 8 released to a unit where you would 9 automatically have a cellmate going through, or 10 you know, direction could put out that, hey, 11 make sure the individual has a cellmate. 12 So, there's no really timeframe on when 13 you would decide that. 14 : lust to clarify, as it 15 relates to, I know you guys just discussed 16 this, but just making sure I'm following you 17 guys correctly. As it relates to the first 18 suicide attem t back on July 23rd, Mr. Epstein. 19 : Right. 20 : You were on leave. 21 : Yeah, the 22nd. 22 : You were notified via 23 telephone of this, and you notified the 24 Regional Director. Is that correct? 25 : Yeah, of the, yeah, I did 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 call him to tell him. : You called the Regional Director? Yes. -- while on leave to notify him? Did you notify anybody else of the 23rd incident? • : No, I called my boss, and -- : Okay. : Yeah. : And that is, via the policy and your responsibilities, as a BOP policy and your responsibility as a Warden, is there anybody else that you were supposed to noti f ? No. : Okay. No. : And your staff was notified because they were working in the institution; correct? lin Which staff? : Your Assistant Warden, who : Yeah. She was the Acting EFTA00064534 65 1 Warden, so she -- 2 : Acting Warden. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Who was that? 5 : At the time, I believe it 6 was (phonetic sp.). 7 Yeah, she was Active Warden. 8 : Okay. Do you happen to 9 know if she notified anybody? 10 : She would've notified the 11 Region also. 12 : Okay. 13 NW And she would've notified 14 the re ion but she was just calling me -- 15 : Okay. 16 : -- just to let me know like, 17 hey, this is what's going on. 18 : Okay. And back when, a 19 few days later when Epstein was removed from 20 suicide watch to psyche observation -- 21 : Um-hum. 22 : -- were you notified of 23 that chap e? 24 : That he was being moved? 25 : lust downgraded from 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 suicide watch to psychological observation. Yes. : Did you notify anybody of that? : Um, I might've called my boss to let him know that, hey, he's been downgraded off of suicide watch. In Okay. Yeah. : You don't recall specifically calling? No, I don't. : Okay. But I probably would've notified him. : Okay. Did you recall notifying anybody specifically about that downgrade? l i What, as far as him? : Yep. p No, I don't recall, but it would've Srobablill been my boss telling me -- Okay. -- hey, we moved him from suicide watch down to -- 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. Director? Director. MS. 67 : And that's the Regional : That's the Regional : And what's his name? : And then a few days later when he was removed from observation and placed back in Special Housing Unit, you were notified of that? Were ou notified of that? Were Oh, yes. : Did you notify anybody of that? : When he was removed and placed back in the EMI -- Yes. -- Special Housing? Yeah, I let my supervisor know that that was the plan. : Okay. : He was moving him, because remember we had to get him -- . Um-hum. -- a roommate. : Right. So, that was the whole 68 1 process, notifying, hey, he's coming off watch. 2 He's oin to the Special Housing Unit. 3 : Um-hum. 4 : And he's going to get a 5 roommate. 6 : Other than your Regional 7 Director did ou notify anybody else? 8 That he was coming off -- 9 : Yes. 10 -- or talk about it? 11 : Yep. 12 Yeah. My exec staff. 13 : Okay. 14 • And said that, you know, 15 what the expectation was that, you know, he's 16 going to have a cellmate. 17 : So, you told, during that 18 meetin do ou recall when that meeting was? 19 : I don't recall when the 20 meeting was, but I just told them, hey, he 21 needs to have a cellmate. This is his 22 cellmate. Cellmate at all times. And, you 23 know, ut it out to your -- 24 : Okay. Um -- 25 MS. : Put it out to your people? EFTA00064535 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 : To the departments and your areas of responsibility on that's how he was going to be housed. MS. : And who did you specificall tell that to? : My Associate Wardens were in there, whoever was acting, the Captain because a that specificall falls under his area. MS. : Um-hum. : The Special Housing Unit. I told him specifically he needs to be housed alone. I informed his Lieutenant, you know, and his offices and basically on each shift, just be mindful, you know, of making rounds and just not for him just for everybody. MS. • And what's the Captain's name? . Okay. : Um-hum. MS. : Did you tell Captain this before Epstein was moved back to the SHU? : Yeah. We had a meeting, and I got together and I said, hey, this was going 70 1 to be the plan that was going to be moved 2 in with him. He was going to have a cellmate, 3 and that was the protocol we were going to 4 follow. 5 MS. : Did confirm that he 6 would tell his Lieutenants, or his -- 7 : He confirmed. I followed up 8 and asked him, did you put it out to the 9 Lieutenants and staff working, and he told me 10 yes. 11 MS. : And was that before 12 Epstein, his confirmation, did that come before 13 Epstein was moved back to the SHU, or around 14 the first da he was in the SHU? 15 : No before. I had the 16 conversation with him, and then I followed up 17 afterwards and said, "Hey, did you disseminate 18 the information?" And he said, "Everything was 19 disseminated." 20 But it wasn't just a one-day thing. It 21 was a constant, I told him, a constant follow 22 up, you know? Make sure that, you know, these 23 protocols are being followed. 24 MS. : How man times do you 25 recall telling Captain that, between 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 when Epstein went back to the SHU -- : Um-hum. -- and then his suicide? : I don't recall the number of times, but it was just a conversation constantly reminding that let's be vigilant on just not him, but everybody in the Special Housing Unit. MS. : Could you estimate daily? Once? Twice? : I wouldn't say daily. I would say, I don't have an actual number. I don't want to say an actual number, but you know, if I did encounter, or I made rounds in the unit, I would, you know, tell staff up there, you know, be vigilant with your protocol. So, I don't know the specific amount of time. I make my rounds once a week at a minimum, but, you know, sometimes it's more. Sometimes it's less. : When it comes to the ability, so you specifigjly go back to, what you said earlier about IIIII. : Right. 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 possible -- 72 : You came up with three IMi Right. -- roommates for him, and with that list, did you brief that up the chain for a royal or where did that go that list? : I sent it to, I made my boss aware of it. =I Okay. And then I sent it to the Chief of Staff in the Director's office. So, I don't know what conversations -- 1.1 Sure. -- took place above that. Um -- M: Okay. I just know about -- : You briefed it up the chain. You briefed your suggestions up the chain. I went up the chain. : And there was, were there any ob'ections to that list? : I gave the three possibles - EFTA00064536 73 74 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NM Um-hum. -- but you know, one I had : was a 26-year-old drug dealer I know he, and he was still in there, and I was like although he was se arated, I list didn't -- IS : Um-hum. -- feel that he could, you know, he might, somebody could convince him to do something. So, he didn't, I didn't feel comfortable with him, and I forget the other one. And I think the other one might've been somebody that was going to be releasing soon. : Okay. So, I took in the factors : Um-hum. -- and second when he checked himself in and feeling that he was going to be lon -term. : Okay. That, so you made special care and consideration in picking Epstein's roormate, cellmate? al Based on the -- : Yep. -- options I had -- 1 2 3 4 7 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yep. -- which wasn't too many. I mean, he had to have a cellmate, and the options weren't ood. : Are staff in the Special Housing Unit allowed to assign cellmates arbitrarily or on their own without consulting a Captain, Lieutenant, or yourself (Indiscernible *00:46:26). : Yeah, the offices on their own can, you know, if they have to move somebody around can move somebody around based on they know who can be housed with who. If somebody's separation, they know who's separated from an individual. So, they can do that. =, I mean, they're capable of Okay. doing that. Okay. As it relates, talk about a little bit. Right. He's no longer in MCC; correct? Right. 75 1 : When was he released from 2 the facilit ? 3 : He was released, I believe, 4 on Frida . S : Okay. Was he transferred 6 out? Was he released from custody? Under what 7 conditions do ou know? 8 : From what I understand, it 9 was with all belongings. So, I don't -- 10 : Okay. 11 -- who took him. You can't, 12 I mean, even if you look on Sentry, you don't 13 know where he was -- 14 : Um-hum. 15 -- but when we looked at him 16 originally, it still showed that he was going 17 to court. 18 : Okay. 19 MIW So, that he was going to be 20 long-term. Now it's just shoiiiiithere's no 21 DST. So, I don't know where is. 22 : Okay. But he's not in 23 MCC? 24 : No, he's not in MCC. 25 : Okay. 76 1 Uh -- 2 : Prior to, you had, you 3 were very active in making sure that Epstein 4 had an a ro riate cellmate? S : Right. 6 : What were you, leading up 7 to the last week Friday, what were you aware of 8 , any court proceedings or any issues or 9 concerns about him leaving the MCC? 10 : I was off on Friday. 11 : Okay. 12 : So, I didn't know anything 13 about his courtproceedings -- 14 : Okay. 15 -- or whatever. I just know 16 this from after the fact. 17 : Okay. When it comes to 18 , the staff in the Special Housing Unit, 19 how do they get notified of court dates, of the 20 probability of someone being released from the 21 facilit ? How does that process work? 22 : They get a call from 23 receivin it's called receiving and discharge. 24 : Okay. 25 : Where the inmates are EFTA00064537 77 1 processed in and processed out. So, they get 2 notification that hey, such and such is 3 leavin and send him down. 4 : Okay. Does the MCC S usually, or sometimes, what's the, how often or 6 frequently does the MCC get advanced notice of 7 an inmate leavin ? 8 : It depends. If the 9 inmate's desi nated -- 10 : Um-hum. 11 . -- then we know in advance 12 he's designated. But usually the Marshalls 13 will come and say, whoever is picking him up, 14 "Hey, we're taking such and such." We might 15 get a list ahead of time if somebody's going to 16 maybe one of the county facilities or some they 17 just come and sa , "Hey, we need this guy." 18 : Okay. Ultimately Friday, 19 the 9th is discharged. 20 : Um-hum. 21 : Leaving Epstein, actually 22 let's talk about without a cellmate. Was there 23 a plan in lace if that were to happen? 24 : We'd review it and say, 25 okay, who can he be with? But he wouldn't have 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 been alone. : Was there anybody in the Special Housing Unit that was already vetted to room with, or cell with Epstein? : No. Because again, didn't anticipate leaving -- : Okay. • -- like that. But we would've gotten somebody in there temporarily. : When did you first become aware of leaving the MCC? : After the death of Mr. Epstein. NW Okay. Um, when I came, you know, that was like my first question was like, where is his cellmate? IZ Okay. I was told he was gone. : When were you first notified of the death of Epstein? : I got a call about 6:50 and M told me that he r -- Okay. -- that he attempted suicide 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 and they were going through life-saving measures. : And who contacted you? : My Associate Warden, : Yes. Uh -- : Was she at the scene? : No, she wasn't. The Lieutenant had called the Captain. The Captain called her, and then she called me. MS. : And is it Lieutenant IIII, is that it? : Lieutenant IIII was the Operations Lieutenant. : Would you mind, in that conversation, would you mind just telling us about that conversation? : She told me Epstein, they found him in his cell. They had a defibrillator on him and that they were working on him. NW Okay. And when she told me that, I 80 1 was like, okay. Where are they at? Is EMS 2 coming in? She said she didn't have that much 3 information because the Lieutenant was down 4 with Epstein performing life-saving measures. 5 So, that's when I came in. 6 : When did you start asking 7 questions about . On the phone or when 8 you arrived at the facility? 9 : So, when I got there, I was 10 like, where is the cellmate. 11 : Um-hum. 12 =, I asked the Lieutenant, like 13 where is his cellmate, and Lieutenant said, "I 14 asked the same question when I went down and, 15 you know, started." He asked the officer, 16 "Where's his cellmate?" 17 And, you know, just couldn't, you know, he 18 was disoriented and told me he had said that. 19 So, that's when we started you know, started 20 the process of where's IIIII? 21 : Just for timeline 22 purposes about what time did you arrive? 23 IS I got there about 7:30. 24 : Okay. Who within the 25 Special Housing Unit would've had the ability EFTA00064538 1 2 3 4 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 or who within the Special Housing Unit would've had the ability or the authority to back-fill ' spot as Epstein's cellmate? : Well what would've happened, which was instructed to them, was -- 1.1 Okay. -- they would've told the Lieutenant or Captain, hey, , I mean Epstein needs a cellmate. And then we would've started the process of getting him a cellmate. Because when, and this was Epstein's routine. He got up early in the morning at 8, and he didn't come back to his cell until about 7:30 at niiiiiirom his attorney visits. left in the morning. So, he doesn't come back to his cell until in the evening, which on that particular day, he got back about, from what I understand, around 6:45. : Okay. : Yeah. : You said that they were instructed to notify that Epstein needed a cellmate? you before -- : So, the Captain, as I told 1 2 3 4 7 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 Um-hum. -- when I told them about the ex ectations. Yep. : All that was Epstein needs a cellmate. Mr Yep. And he's to be having a cellmate at all times. If he doesn't, then they need to notify you and then you can push it up. : So, you told the Captain - : I told the Captain specificall that. : Okay. And the Captain to tell his, helm him. : He conveyed it to the the Officers, and disseminated Lieutenant, to it out. been notified. have worked? When he -- -- when 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 that was dismissed? : The Officers should've called the Lieutenant -- • : Which Officers? : The ones working the unit? : The Special Housing Unit? : The Special Housing Unit Officers. =I Okay. Because they know that he packed u . The - IS - Okay. : So, once he gets packed up, they is Okay. : They should've known, hey, let me notify and move it up the chain, Epstein doesn't have a cellmate. : How does ' belongings get packed u ? Who does that? : When the staff in SHU pack up his stuff. SHU would -- : Okay. So, the staff in : They'll come to the door -- : Okay. So, he should've How should the notification was , realized 84 1 Um-hum. 2 -- and if they say WAB, it's : 3 with all below in s. 4 : Okay. S : So, they more than likely 6 just took his stuff -- 7 Um-hum. 8 -- and then whatever he had : 9 in his cell, and if he had something in the 10 property room, they might've gone to get it. 11 Or if they didn't, then we would somewhere down 12 the line ship it to wherever his destination 13 is. 14 : Is the staff that's 15 packing up ' belongings different than the 16 Correctional Officers? 17 ' property would've 18 been stored u in our Special Housing Unit. 19 : Right. 20 : And then it would've been 21 taken by our Special Housing Unit staff to our 22 receivin and discharge center. 23 : Is that staff, when you 24 say "staff", is that a different responsibility 25 than being a Correctional Officer? EFTA00064539 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 : Well we're all, we're all correctional workers Okay. -- but their department is, you know, the receiving and discharge -- : Um-hum. -- of inmates. : Okay. So, that's where you process in -- lir Got you. -- or process out. So, they would take the stuff down to them. They'd process in and rocess out. : Okay. So, these are people that are different, have different responsibilities than, okay. Right. : I got it. The Special House -- : Thank you for -- MS. : But the Officers in the SHU would have been responsible for packing up ' belon i s? : Right. They would've taken 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 all of his belongings. Now I don't know if he has some property still in the property room. But whatever was in his cell, they would've gathered and taken down. : So, the Officers that are in the Special Housing Unit either would have actively participated or observed belongings bein packed up and leaving? : Right, and taken. And again I don't know where went. a: Sure. I don't know if he went to court. . Um-hum. I don't know -- : Right. -- but the terminology with all belon in s. : Sure. So, he was being -- : Is there any documentation or reports about when ' belongings would have been collected from Special Housing Unit? : I wouldn't say belongings, but there would be something showing that he 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the SHU Lieutenant was working, the SHU 87 was de arted the institution. : Okay. And that would be in the s stem somewhere? : Uh, yeah. They would be receipts, but our receiving and discharge would have that. Okay. And it will also show in Sentry, which we use to track on when he was keyed out. Okay. So, just to recap. Um-hum. The Officers that were working in the Special Housing Unit would've observed ' belongings leaving. They were instructed via the Captain through your orders that if Epstein was to have a cellmate at all times. At all times. : And that if that wasn't, you know, supposed to be briefed up to the Captain and then ultimately to you. Is that correct? : Right. The Lieutenant, if 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 Lieutenant happened to be off that day. : Um-hum. • And then it goes up the chain to notify somebody that he doesn't have a cellmate. : Okay. MS. : So, the SHU Lieutenant was off that day, ou said? • He was off that day of -- : And which SHU was that? Huh? It was the Lieutenant at the time was MS. ' . UhI'll , Lieutenant IIII. MS. : So, who was the Acting Supervisor? • We didn't, well the Operations, if we don't have a SHU Lieutenant on duty, the Operations Lieutenant is the Lieutenant that would come up, make rounds, and (Indiscernible *00:57:40). MS. : Okay. And who was that on Frida ? : I don't recall. I have to look at the roster. EFTA00064540 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 : Okay. Let's talk a little bit about staffing that day. II :Okg. __ : Well, can I -- Yes. -- say one thing? : Of course. : I sent a memorandum to, did he give it to ou? ? : On? Well, I got a memorandum this mornin MS. : This morning, yes. : About the offices saying that they knew that he left and when he left he told the evening watch guy that Epstein needed a cellmate. MS. : Do you know why that's dated toda ? : Because when I came in this morning, one of my Lieutenants came in and I asked him, I said, "Hey, have you heard anything about what went on on Friday?" And that's when he told me he had talked to the 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Officer, and the Officer told him he had notified them as to that, you know, Epstein needed a Bunkie. MS. MI : Okay. And who -- E Um -- MS. : -- asked the Officer to put that in writing? : Uh, Lieutenant He had told him to ut it in writing. : Just for, uh, (Indiscernible *00:58:59) if I may just -- MS. : Yeah. -- read it so we're on the same 90 Um-hum. So, we have a memo dated August 12, 2019 to the Warden from -- phonetic sp.) I -- 7 : Yeah. Um-hum. : And the subject is, Past Information from Special Housing Units. : Um-hum. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 91 : Was suggested, was told by to write this memo? : Yes. : Okay. And the memo, just MS. : I don't think you need to (Indiscernible *00:59:26). : Okay, yep. Just -- Yeah. -- thanks. Just making sure we're on -- MS. : I appreciate that, yeah. : Overall staffing at MCC, if we can just go down that road for right now. Where, are you guys at full staff? Where are you in terms of staffing levels? . We're understaffed. : Okay. So, we're starting the hiring process right now, but we do have to, you know, there's some posts that we can't fill. But -- : Where are you in terms of 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 staffing? Like what percentage are you, would you sa ? : I believe we're in our low 80s, high 70s. I'd have to look at the staffin or whatever. But somewhere around 80%. : Right, but it doesn't only, that's not the only issue. The only issue -- Sure. -- is like we, let's say we're staffed to 80%, we've got about 30 people that we can't use. Either they're on Workman's Comp. They're on AWOL status. You name it, we have it. But the problem is, it takes a while to go through that process to remove an employee. So, we can't just hire when you have a bunch of people like that on you. So, that's where we're at. : Okay. So, how do you as a Warden and as an institution compensate for being 20% understaffed? : Well, I mean everyone has to chip in. I mean, we're not like the state where you have your Correctional workers and EFTA00064541 93 1 you have the contractor workers. Everyone, 2 despite the fact that you might have a 3 different job title, you know how to perform 4 the functions of a Correctional Officer. You S have to qualify with weapons every year. You 6 take training on working the housing units, and 7 the majority of them weren't hired off the 8 street as into their positions. There might be 9 a few. But the majority were Correctional 10 Officers and then promoted into the different 11 positions. 12 So, we have annual refresher training 13 every year where we train and move on like 14 that. But that's just not, it's not their 15 primary discipline, being a Correctional 16 Officer. 17 : You said all staff are 18 trained as Corrections Officers? 19 : The terminology is you're 20 Correctional workers. 21 : Okay. 22 Eir So, you know haw to perform 23 the functions of a Correctional Officer. 24 : Okay. 25 MIN Carry firearms. You can do 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 94 escorted trips. You could work the housing unit. The only ones who probably are exempt from that are doctors and attorneys and psychologists, the professionals. But everyone else, : And where do the Correctional workers receive this training? : Well initially you go to Glencoe. =I Everyone goes to Glencoe for Okay. trainin : Um-hum. : And then specialized training, we have annual refresher training every year where we re-qualify and go over certain correctional topics. : Okay. Let me ask you about some specific people. Okay. : If you happen to know if they, what their primary duties are. Mi Okay. : Michael Thomas? : He's a material handler 1 foreman. 2 • 3 handler? 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 : What is a material : They work in the warehouse. So, in the warehouse, it has several functions. You either work in the commissary which the inmates shop for food. He can work in the laundry where you do that, or you work in the warehouse where ou're processing -- Um-hum. -- in stuff. What's the other one? We also have an outside warehouse where we take deliveries. So, that's our, and it's under our trust fund department. : Okay. And the night of ust 10th -- Right. -- do you happen to know if Mr. Thompson was working as a Correctional Officer in that primary responsibility? : He was one of the Officers in the S ecial Housing Unit. : Okay. Do you know how often he works as a Correction, his responsibility as an Officer? 96 1 • What they do is since he 2 works in that department, we might, if we need 3 him during the daytime, assign him over to the 4 department. But he does overtime. He was 5 working overtime then. So, we have a lot of 6 overtime. So, individuals in other departments 7 work the overtime. 8 : Is that something they can 9 do voluntarily, or are they told to do that? 10 How does that work? 11 : We have a volunteer list for 12 the individuals that don't work in the 13 department. 14 Okay. 15 If you're a Correctional : 16 Officer, we have what's called a mandation 17 list. So, if we call around and I say, "Hey, 18 we need somebody to work this", and everyone 19 turns it down and says, "No, I don't want to 20 work it" then we go to the mandation list. 21 : Okay. 22 : Which is you're next up to 23 be mandated to work a post. 24 : Okay. Um -- 25 : Was he mandated that MS. EFTA00064542 97 98 1 night? 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : I believe he wasn't. He wouldn't be mandated because he works as a material handler foreman. MS. : Got it. So, he signed up for it. : Okay. Yeah. So, just to clarify, the Correctional Officers or only the Officers are on the mandated list? Right. : The rest of Correctional workers have the opportunity to volunteer for overtime? : Right. You volunteer for overtime. 1.1 Okay. Or during the daytime, I can say, "Look I need to fill these posts. I need you to come from your department to work over in Correctional services." : Okay. Toba Noel (phonetic sp.). : Uh, is a Correctional 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Officer. : She's a Corrections Officer? Corrections Officer. : Okay. Do you happen to know if she was working overtime or her regular shift that da ? : I'm not sure. I think it might've been (Indiscernible *01:04:52). I'm not sure. I think her regular, I'm not sure. 11.1 Okay. Her regular shift was evenin watch, and then she did it. So -- Okay. MS. : Does she typically work in the SHU? : Uh, yes. She's been (Indiscernible *01:05:01). MS. Okay. : And I don't know if that was her assigned quarterly post, but I do believe it is. : Captain ME He's the Ca tain. ? 2 99 1 He's an 2 Officer. 3 an Officer? 4 : 5 6 : He's an Officer. 7 8 : He's an Officer. 9 (phonetic 10 sp.)? 11 : She is the psychologist. 12 : Okay. So, the only one, 13 the only one, Michael Thomas, is the only one 14 who's rimar responsibilit is not an Officer? 15 : And Dr. 16 : Doctor, yep. Okay, great. 17 MS. : Are you notified when a 18 Corrections Officer is mandated to work 19 overtime? Who makes that decision? 20 : The Lieutenant on shift 21 handles that. 22 : What are the rules, or any 23 policies in terms of overtime? Is there a 24 limit? Is there, how does the overtime work? 25 Is there a cap in terms of hours a week? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 . It's voluntary. : Okay. And then it's, like you said, the rison business is 24 hours. Um-hum. : We don't have the luxury to turn around and say we can't fill a post. Now I might have a post that might require, you know, X amount of people, but I have to staff it at a minimum where we're safe coming and going. WI Um-hum. So, there's really no set amount. I mean, depending, you know, I've been here, when I first got here where our staffing was really bad where people were doing four a week. Iff When you say -- You know? -- "four a week", what is In Four overtimes a week. : Now is, when you say, what is an overtime? Is that like another 8-hour shift? EFTA00064543 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 I I Another 8-hour shift. : Okay. So, you -- I So, it depends on, you know, the number of people we have, those volunteering. So, right now we're in the hiring process where we are getting, you know, bodies to fill in these positions. : So, an overtime shift is eight additional hours? : Eight additional hours. : Okay. Is there any -- : Go ahead. -- is there any limit on 16-hour days a week an employee can how many work? : You just can't exceed the amount of 16 hours in a day. : Could you explain that for me? a : : Okay. You work eight hours. : Right. You can only work 16 hours that is Okay. : You can't work 24 hours. 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 they could. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 You can't, you're not like a fireman where, you know, ou're on duty 24 hours in. Okay. : SO, there's a limit on the daily. . Okay. That you can do. : But there's no limit on how many days in a row you can work those 16 hours? No. If somebody wants to, : Do you have any unofficial or an guidance on that front? : No, not really, because I mean you have some people that sign up for overtime. 1111 : Got you. You know? They say -- : Um-hum. -- hey, they might, I don't know eo le's financial situations. Right. : But they might say, hey, you know, I need to get some extra money -- 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 1.1 Yeah. -- for X, Y and Z. So, I don't know the specifics -- : Okay. - on why somebody would. : You know I had a previous job where my supervisor wouldn't let us work 21 days in a row. We had to take that 22nd day off. In Right. : Do you guys have anything unofficial like that that -- : Well they have their two days off. 1.1 Okay. So, you get two days off. So --I. Is that -- --and that -- : Is it required that they take those two days? : Yeah. You take your two days. What you choose to do with those two days is your business. But we don't, like if someone, it has to be an emergency. Let's say 104 1 it's your Friday. You won't get mandated on a 2 Friday because Federal Law states you have to 3 have X amount of hours off during the week. 4 Okay. S =I In conjunction to days off. : 6 So, Indiscernible *01:08:57). 7 : So, the most 16-hour days 8 an employee can work is five, so they have two 9 days off? 10 : Well not necessarily, 11 because you could say hey I want to work on my 12 days off. 13 : Okay. So, you can come in 14 on your da s off then? 15 : On your days off. That's 16 voluntar 17 Okay. 18 I can't just turn around -- 19 : Sure. 20 -- and say you have to stay 21 but if 22 Okay. 23 Um -- 24 Okay. Anything on the 25 overtime? EFTA00064544 105 106 1 MS. No. 2 : Okay. Talk a little bit 3 about the cameras in the facility. 4 In Okay. : What is your understanding 6 on the eneral reliability of them? 7 : They're not good. We were 8 just funded to get new cameras installed but, 9 you know, when you're installing the cameras, 10 there's a lot you have to do. The building is 11 built in 1975. It's not like a new building, 12 and we've got to go through cinderblock. 13 There's a lot of things that, you know, are in 14 that block. Asbestos. So, we have to do the 15 wirin . SO the system is outdated. Um -- 16 : When you say they're not, 17 are they not reliable? Is it poor quality in 18 recordin ? What's the -- 19 : It's the recording, but what 20 do the call that, the DVRs? 21 : Okay. 22 : The ones that hold the 23 recordings, they're breaking down. So, 24 sometimes we have where they're not recording. 25 We have to get it fixed, you know, more along 1 those lines. 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 "unreliable?" 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : How were you aware, how are you as the Warden made aware of cameras not working appropriately or any issues with the recordin devices? : The department head would bring it up to me, or the Associate Warden would tell me, you know, we were informed that the cameras aren't working. : What is the normal procedure when the cameras go down? : So, if the cameras go down, then the contact has to look and determine what's the roblem with the cameras. : Okay. How long would you say that the cameras have been unreliable? : What do you mean by : I'm sorry, how long would you sa the cameras have been not working? : They work, but periodically they o down. Okay. : That's what I meant by it, but they do record. You can, you know, it's 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 the quality. Like you go to some places and some agencies where you have that bird vision type camera. That's not what we have. 1.11 Okay. I mean, it's, you can see things, we can do some identifying, but they're not, you know, and they're only in certain locations. MS. : And again, the chain of notification is the staff, the Corrections Officers or Corrections worker notifies the Shift Lieutenant? As far as with the cameras? : Yes. If they're -- It depends on -- -- not operating. -- who's using the cameras and reviewin the cameras. MS. : Okay. : You know, usually our investigative department's doing it, and they do the check, and if they come in and check and check the cameras and say, stuff's not recording, then they notify the Comp Shop or the facilities manager and say, hey, we have a 108 1 problem. The cameras are not recording. 2 MS. : So, does SIS have a room 3 where the can see the cameras in the facility? 4 : We have a, the camera room 5 is in our communications room behind that area. 6 MS. : Okay. So, if a camera, if 7 the camera in the SHU was not working -- 8 : Um-hum. 9 MS. : -- someone in that camera 10 room would be able to see that there's no feed 11 from that articular camera? 12 : It's not the feed, it's the 13 recording. You can have, you always have the 14 life feed that you can see what's going on. 15 it's the recordin of it. 16 MS. : Um-hum. 17 : And the recordings 18 typically, and don't quote me on it, are on a 19 two-week or less timeline. So, what it is is, 20 if it gets to that two-week period, the memory 21 gets full, then it starts re-recording over 22 again. So, that's how most camera systems 23 work. 24 MS. : But if for instance a 25 camera in the SHU was down -- EFTA00064545 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 Ma Right. MS. : -- someone in that camera room would see that the camera was down. : Or the SIS would check and say, determine hey the recordings are not down or yeah, ou're right, or even the screen. MS. MS : Um-hum. : If we didn't have a visual screen to say, hey, there's problems with the camera. MS. : And did that happen with the SHU camera? Was anyone notified that it wasn't workin ? : Well, and this is what I was told after the fact, the SIS Lieutenant I believe conveyed that to the Communication Officer that there was a problem with the cameras. MS. _: Is that (phonetic s it? : And it's a she? : Yes, she. : When did she know about 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 • I believe she told me she told him on Thursday that she made a notification for it. : Okay. Um -- MS. : And that would be an oral notification? MS. MS. him. So -- MS. : Okay. : Are you made aware of those notifications as well that the cameras are down and not working? . It would depend. : Okay. You know, on how bad it was. If it was something that you can run out and fix immediately, you know, it would say, hey, you know, we can fix it. But if it was something that was going to be for a while, I would have to be notified. : And were you notified of this? I'm not sure. : Okay. But she did say she notified 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 : I was told on Saturday. yeah. : Okay. You were told after II : After -- -- the fact. -- the fact I was told. : Okay. : That the cameras weren't workin . : I'm sorry, just who notified you of this? told me. : Lieutenant, okay. Talking about let's talk about phone calls in the SHU. Mi Um-hum. : What are the regulations or policies about giving inmates unreported phone calls? : During the intake screening, you can come in and in certain SHU situations, an inmate will get an unmonitored call if they don't have their telephone account set up. =I okay. So, they're afforded that 112 1 opportunit . 2 : How does the inmate get a 3 telephone account set up? 4 : Typically he has to go out S of SHU into a housing unit and go through the 6 voice recognition process in order to get set 7 up for it. You can't do it in the Special 8 Housin Unit. 9 : And we said earlier that 10 Mr. Epstein was never left, was always in 11 Special Housin Unit. 12 : Was always in the Special 13 Housin Unit. 14 : Did he have an opportunity 15 to get a tele hone account set up? 16 : The problem with Mr. Epstein 17 was he was in the attorney room all day. 18 : Okay. 19 =I From beginning to end, and 20 that's something that you do during the daytime 21 because our communications people are there. 22 So, we did, and then again, he had to be in an 23 assigned unit to get that. It's just to have 24 it set u . 25 : Okay. Was Mr. Epstein EFTA00064546 113 114 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 allowed hone calls? : Was he what? : Was Mr. Epstein allowed phone calls? : Yeah. His initial one, he didn't get his initial one, so we had to give him amiglgligitial call when he came in. Okay. Then while you're in the Special Housing Unit, you're entitled to one call every 30 days. : Okay. : So, he was entitled to a 30- day phone call. : And are those normally monitqr2gillgrded? How do those? IIIIIIIIIII: Typically in his case, that he didn't have his monitor set up, the unit manager stood there and listened to the call. : Okay. Um -- MS. : And would that be the Lieutenant? Manager. MS. : No. It was the Unit : And who would that be? 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : That was Yr. (phonetic MS. : Okay. So -- : So, Mr. should have been listening to that phone call? : Right, and from what I understand he listening. Okay. Are those phone calls recorded anywhere to ensure just to -- : No, they're not recorded, but we can trace the phone line to get the phone number. = I Okay. To determine where the call was made. : Okay. And in tracing of that to get the phone number, is the length of the call -- • Yes. -- noted as well? Yes. : Okay. But in terms of putting that into a system or a monitoring, there's not a database for that? 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 : We didn't, because again, he wasn't set u . : Okay. Are you aware of how many phone calls Mr. Epstein's made while in the S ecial Housing Unit? : I'm not sure. I'm not aware how many made. But I don't, I know he made that one -- EMI Um-hum. -- that day and I'm aware of the initial one, but I don't believe he made that many, because I do believe I saw a correspondence that his attorney made to our attorney about him getting a phone call. : Okay. : That he hadn't gotten a So, there's some correspondence on phone call. that. : Okay. You got any else on the -- MS. : No. : Okay. : Let's go over real quick (Indiscernible *01:18:13). : We covered this a little 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 earlier. I just wanted to go over it again. When were you first notified of Mr. Epstein's suicide, or medical, or situation? : About 6:45 -- : Okay. -- 6:50. : Who did you notify? I immediately called my boss MEI : Okay. -- to let him know and then tell him that I was on my way to the institution. : Did you notify anybody else? MI Who, me? : Yes. No. I just, I let him know, get dressed et to the institution. : Okay. When you arrived at the institution, did you speak to any staff there? : When I got there, I saw obviousl the Lieutenant. Um -- : Which -- EFTA00064547 117 1 MS. : Lieutenant 2 : Uh, Lieutenant when he 3 came in and my first, you know, any time you 4 have a suicide attempt, you want to make sure S your staff are all right and how they're doing. 6 So, I went to, you know, to check on him to 7 kind of get a debrief on what was going on. He 8 kind of debriefed me on the situation. Um -- 9 : What did Lieutenant IIII 10 tell ou? 11 : So, I asked him, so I 12 basically told him what happened, and he said, 13 he talked to Officer Noel and she said we 14 didn't do the 3 o'clock count or the 5 o'clock 15 count. 16 And then he said he talked to Noel, 17 Officer Noel, and she said, no he talked to 18 Officer Thomas and that Officer Thomas said, "I 19 messed up. We messed up." Something about it's 20 not her fault. But he said he was just talking 21 way off the line. 22 Let me back-track a little. I did make 23 one more call, because I couldn't get in 24 contact with Lieutenant IIII. I called up to 25 the Special Housing Unit. 118 1 : Okay. 2 NW And I believe Ms. Noel 3 picked up the phone, and I asked her, you know, 4 what was going. And she told me what was going S on. But she really couldn't talk. So, then I 6 came, when I got to the institution, I saw her 7 and I said, "Hey, are you all right? Is 8 everything fine." And she was like okay. 9 So, I had somebody from our crisis support 10 team that was there talk to her to make sure 11 that she was all right, and then I went to try 12 to find Thomas. She said Thomas had left. 13 So, I said, okay, "Left where? Where did 14 he go?" 15 They said, you know, "He went home. He 16 was distraught." 17 So, then I get another call saying Thomas 18 was outside, and that he told me, "I'm not 19 answering any questions from you. I want my 20 union", I said Thomas, "I'm not concerned about 21 what happened. I'm concerned about your well- 22 being. Make sure you're all right. You've 23 been through a traumatic experience", and he 24 just kept talking. 25 So, there was a staff member out there. I 119 1 said, try to find him if he's outside. So, 2 they went outside and they said, you know, he 3 was gone. 4 I didn't see Ms. Noel, but I told them to S get a memorandum from her on what happened. 6 They told me said she wasn't feeling well and 7 she had to talk to her Union rep. 8 So, and I said, "You know what, let them 9 go. We'll get back with them or somebody will 10 get back with them." And they left. And we 11 just started the process of collecting and 12 preserviniiIIIIIII 13 MS. : Have Noel or Thomas been 14 in to work since then? 15 : No. Noel, I sent some 16 support staff on Sunday to go talk to them. 17 Today, the mother of Thomas' child, she works 18 at the institution but they're not together, 19 said, "Hey, he was with her all weekend but she 20 can't get in contact with him." I sent her and 21 a Lieutenant to go over to his house to find 22 out if he's okay. He called me a little irate 23 saying, "You know, you're sending people to my 24 house. You know, I was sleeping." 25 I said, "I'm checking on your well-being", 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 you know. And then I didn't know, and I asked him, I said, "Did you call in for work today?" And he said, "Yes, I did." And he said, "He was sleeping and he was tired." And I said, "Well I'm just checking on your well-being and just seeing how you are", and I left it at that. : That was this morning? That was this morning. MS. : So, he basically called in sick toda ? : He called in sick today. She's on da s off Monday and Tuesday. a MS. : Okay. : I'm going to assign both of them with no inmate contact, so they're going to be away from inmates and assigned on the outside Indiscernible *01:23:09). : And then Lieutenant IIII. And then that's basically told me, and I told him, "Write a memorandum on what was said", and he wrote the memorandum and he submitted it. MS. : Has he been in to work since Saturday? EFTA00064548 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 121 : Yes, he did. Actually he stayed there late on Saturday. He basically worked a double, and then he came back and worked during the day on it. So, he hasn't taken any time off. MS. : Is he there now? : He's there. He's there today, so he's working here. MS. And -- : Oh, and I do have an addition. And I did ask him, you know, when he got there what happened, and he says, he doesn't know what the condition was because when Thomas called for the emergency medical, he opened the door and took him down himself and started life-saving measures. MS. : So, Epstein was hanging from the door? : We don't know what he was doing because Thomas was the first one there, and when responding staff came, he was already there doing compressions and life-saving measures. So, I definitively can't say where, was he hanging? What position he was or not because nobody knows when they responded, so. 122 1 : What is the policy 2 regarding if an Officer or staff member sees an 3 inmate in that situation? 4 : Okay. And I won't want to S quote this is a policy thing, but you call for 6 assistance and you wait for assistance to come 7 because you don't know if that's a ploy. So, 8 if you go in there as one person, and you know, 9 when somebody's hanging, that's dead. That is 10 dead weight. 11 So, you go in there, you don't know if 12 it's a ploy. So, you go in there and get 13 overpowered, guess what? Now that individual 14 has the cell door keys for every key on that 15 range, and that could be a recipe for disaster. 16 So, it might sound inhumane that, you 17 know, we have to wait because the individual on 18 the grill can't come down range either because 19 if they get overpowered, guess what, we've lost 20 a whole unit. And that's the most secure unit 21 in the institution. 22 So, she has to stay outside with the keys 23 on the grill because there are two different 24 keys. They don't mix. And we wait for 25 responding staff to come in and perform, you 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 know, the life-saving measures without endangering your safety. So, he went in and, you know, so again, there's no idea of what the cell looked like, what his osition was, or anyiiiiii YS. : Captain and Captain are they at work now? Captain =? : I think. His secretary is : Okay. Yeah. : That may be a mistake. Yeah. MS. : So, Captain was the Captain on Friday; right? : Yes. : Okay. : And I need to, and I'm not sure if he was at work either. I think he might've been off. But is his secretary. MS. Lieutenant is it okay. And 2 was the 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 midnight Lieutenant. : Okay. And he, she? She worked, apparently she worked at night and IIII relieved her early. MS. : Okay. : At 5:33, but then I heard she came back and then left again. So, I don't know, I believe she went up to the unit. MS. : Has she been at work since then? MS. 124 I believe she's on days off. : Okay. So, she'll be back tonight. MS. : Okay. Do you want to step out for a minute? : Actually before -- MS. : Unless you have anything (Indiscernible 11:27:13). IM lust a few -- Okay. -- if I can jump back a little bit. In Okay. : Specifically go back to, did you have any one-on-one interactions with EFTA00064549 125 1 Epstein? 2 : Let's see, I had one, I saw 3 him by the attorney visit, small conversation. 4 Another one I saw him when I was making rounds 5 on the unit when he had first gotten into the 6 cell with . He was going into the shower. 7 I asked him, "How was everything going." He 8 said, "I'm good. I'm fine." 9 And then , I said, "How's he doing?" 10 was like, "I want to go back to a unit." 11 So, you know, was just that type of 12 conversation while making rounds. 13 : Okay. Thank you. 14 111 Okay. 15 : And did you want just step 16 outside? 17 : Huh? 18 ro you mind if we just take a 19 step out? 20 : No, I have no problem. 21 : It is 12:23. We're 22 pausing the interview. 23 We're resuming the interview at this time. 24 It is 12:29 in the afternoon. 25 MS. : Okay. So, the first 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 question is, I just want to make sure we have the name ri ht. Okay. MS. : The Lieutenant or the Captain that you told that Epstein should have a cellmate? : Well, it was Captain , okay. Yeah. MS. : Okay. And I know you're probably already doing this, but we just wanted to make sure you're preserving all of the emails that you referenced, any text messages that you've sent about this, any communications that ou've had at all. : Well when I had gave the direction it was given verbally in a meeting. MS. Um-hum. : I didn't send emails out. I had a direct conversation. MS. : Okay. : So, it was everyone in the room. So -- MS. : Okay. But for instance, 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2S 127 the email that you sent listing here are the three possibilities for -- : Oh, yes. -- who's -- All of that -- -- the best. All of that. Yeah. If you want that -- -- you're preserving. -- that's there. It's preserved. MS. : Okay. : I'm sure this will inevitably happen, and it's a report for this. Has that already been drafted? Is that a process? For? : Will there be an incident report regarding the discovery of Jeffrey Epstein's bod ? : It's called a report of incident, a S83. So, we did that today. . Okay. You know -- : Um-hum. -- just a brief statement on 128 1 what ha ened, the times -- 2 : Okay. 3 : -- and moving forward with 4 that. S : Do you know who drafted 6 that? 7 : The SIS Lieutenant does it. 8 : Okay. 9 : And then I 10 it's ultimately sent from me. 11 incident -- 12 Um-hum. 13 1.1 1 -- to our central office. : 14 So, I look at it the synopsis. 15 : Okay. 16 : Just for terminology to make 17 sure it's accurate. And it's just a brief 18 statement saying that, you know, he made 19 rounds. 20 Um-hum. 21 =I He was unresponsive. Life- 22 : saving measures were initiated. Taken to the 23 outside hospital and then he was pronounced 24 deceased at that time. And then we just move 25 on from there. review it because It's a report of EFTA00064550 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 129 lust a couple of more -- Um-hum. -- housekeeping stuff just to say, have you had any contact with the press regarding this? you directl : No, I have not. : Has any press contacted No, they have not. : Have you directed any staff to destroy anything? : No, I have not. : What directions have you given the staff in terms of preserving things? : So, initially when we came, when I got in, I told the Captain, get all the log books up there, the rounds, anything pertaining to get it and anything we can think of that might be needed. And it's given to the SIS. It's in the SIS office with the SIS Lieutenant. So, told them to preserve it, and whoever needed it, I know the IG has come by. They've taken some stuff. But basically preserve everything that might be needed to be 130 1 preserved. And then if any requests come, you 2 o and get it and preserve it. 3 : Are you -- 4 MS. : Can I just ask one quick S question about the log books? 6 Yeah. 7 : Actually while she's 8 looking at it -- 9 MS. Yeah. 10 -- do you mind? 11 MS. : This is -- 12 . Are you aware of any 13 objects missing from his cell? Are you aware 14 of anything peculiar occurring since his 15 suicide? Since his body was discovered? 16 • You mean missing from his 17 cell? 18 Yes. 19 =I I didn't observe the cell, : 20 so I don't know what's in -- 21 : Were you ever notified of 22 any, after his body was discovered, have you 23 been notified of any peculiarities or anything 24 that stuck out in your mind as odd? 25 : As far as what would've been 1 2 3 4 S 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 131 in his cell, or? : Anything in general as it relates to him? : Not that I can think of. I mean, it's just documents that we're still trying to gather -- : Sure. -- and locate, but -- : It's nothing odd because I don't know what happened in that cell. Um-hum. : So, I don't know what would be -- Okay. : -- considered odd. Were you aware of him having any contraband in his cell? a : Contraband? : Anything -- : Well -- -- he wasn't supposed to have? Any unapproved things in his cell? : No. : Okay. : I mean, he would've received 132 1 an incident re ort. 2 : Okay. 3 . And the only incident report 4 he had was, I guess it was the cloth that was 5 found on the initial one, but then our 6 Disciplinary Hearing Officer concluded that we 7 couldn't' sustain any charges on him because it 8 was inconclusive -- 9 : Okay. 10 : -- with it, but that's -- 11 : Okay. And were you aware 12 of him having any enemies or anything, or being 13 a specific tar et by anybody? 14 : Where? 15 : In the institution? 16 • No. I mean no one's came to 17 me specifically saying, you know, "He's my 18 enemy" or all that, so I don't, you know. 19 Was he not to be, not to 20 be celled with anybody because of any problems 21 that he would have, or -- 22 : I mean. 23 : Let me rephrase that a 24 little. Were you aware of any other inmates 25 who had targeted him specifically? EFTA00064551 133 134 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. : Okay. Um-hum. : The log books -- Um-hum. MS. : -- just for the record, I'm showing log book Tier G dated 08/10/2019. : Right. MS. : So, this is filled out by a Corrections Officer -- Right. -- who's doing the checks Right. -- every 30 minutes. : Um-hum. : Correct? Yes. MS. : And they're supposed to write the time they start and end and then initial it? MS. Lieutiiiiiiiiiii : Who did it. : And then the Operations ns it at the end of the shift. : The shift that they reviewed 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it. MS. : Okay. Okay. • This is not complete for the simple fact that, you know, with the emergency coming, I had them take it and preserve it. So, it was part of the preservation. So, that's probably why it doesn't go all the way up to 8 o'clock. MS. Got it. : Because as soon as I came in, I told the Lieutenant grab the 30-minute checks. MS. : And is this a signature or a circle for a signature? That's a signature. : Okay. • Whoever was in, and I believe, and I'm not sure, but if it was the morning watch Lieutenant, it would be Lieutenant MS. Yeah. MS. : I think that's all the questions that we have. : Great. That's it. The 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 time is now 12:35. Warden, we really appreciate your time. Okay. : And the interview is completed, oh actually before we do that. Is there anything that you would like to tell us? Any statements that you would like to make? Anything you think we should know about the incident in general? Just wanted to give you an opportunity if there's anything that you think we should know that we haven't discussed. : I can't think of anything else. But I mean, as it comes along, I'll pass it on to the IG. Anything I get or any information. =I:0kTayha.nk you. 136 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00064552