EFTA00110695.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JULY 12, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00110695 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00110696 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is with the U.S. 3 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 4 General New York Field Office and these are my 5 credentials. All right. This interview with 6 federal Bureau of Prisons lieutenant 7 is being conducted as part 8 of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is July 12, 2021, and the time is 11 1:06 p.m. This interview is being conducted at 12 the federal correctional institution Danbury, 13 located in Danbury, Connecticut. This is the 14 training center. What is it the -? 15 MR. : SIPE Center. 16 MR. : SIPE Center? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : What does it stand for do 19 you know? 20 MR. : Mm.... 21 MR. : SPI - whatever. It's the 22 training center. 23 MR. : SIPE. Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. It's the training 25 center right outside of the FCI Danbury on the EFTA00110697 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 FCI Danbury property. Also present is DOJ OIG 2 Special Agent . This interview 3 will be recorded by me, SSA 4 Could everyone please identify themselves for 5 the record and spell your last name. To start, 6 again I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 7 8 MR. : I am Special Agent 9 10 MR. : I am Lieutenant 11 12 MR. : Thank you sir. This is 13 an official DOJ OIG investigation to the death 14 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 15 circumstances, and you're being asked to 16 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 17 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 18 the DOJ OIG? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Thank you sir. This is a 21 form that we have for our voluntary interviews. 22 We give this to everybody that's voluntary just 23 so you know that it is voluntary. You know you 24 can stop the interview any time. You don't 25 have to answer our questions. You can leave. EFTA00110698 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 I'm going to read it to you for the record. 2 It's United States Department of Justice Office 3 of the Inspector General Warnings and 4 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 5 Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are 6 being asked to provide information as part of 7 an investigation being conducted by the Office 8 of the Inspector General. This investigation 9 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 10 General Act as amended. This investigation 11 pertains to job performance failure and 12 security failure. This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 15 be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 18 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 19 or both. Then there's the waiver which says I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me. And there's 25 the - right here - employee signature and EFTA00110699 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 employee's name. You want to read that 2 yourself. Feel free to. If you agree just 3 sign 4 MR. : So it says job performance 5 failure and security failure according to-. 6 MR. : That's for everybody. 7 We're giving that - that's just the blanket 8 statement we're providing to every single 9 person that we interview. 10 MR. -: .mm 11 MR. : It doesn't necessarily 12 mean that you've done anything wrong. It's 13 just that's what the investigation is looking 14 into. You know security failure of the 15 institution - job performance failure. Because 16 someone died in this matter. And looking into 17 the surrounding circumstances with it. 18 Everybody's being provided that same - 19 MR. : Okay. 20 21 MR. : -- that same information. 22 Okay. So I just singed my name as the Special 23 Agent. And I'm printing my name. Again this 24 is 25 MR. : This is Special Agent EFTA00110700 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 I am signing as a witness. 2 MR. : Okay. And Special Agent 3 , if you don't mind, just place the date 4 and time. Again it is July 12, 2021, and the 5 time is 1:10 p.m. now. And the place is FCI 6 Danbury Training Center. Thank you, sir. 7 Okay. Did you understand that form? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. Cool. Is there 10 any other questions you want to ask about that 11 though? 12 MR. : no. 13 MR. : No? 14 MR. : I mean it's voluntary is that 15 right? 16 MR. : Yeah. Exactly. 17 Voluntary. You don't have to answer. And 18 again that job performance failure - security 19 failure that's something we're telling 20 everybody that that's the purpose of our 21 interviews is to figure out - 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- what went wrong and 24 all that kind of stuff with regard to this 25 matter. Before starting the interview, I'd EFTA00110701 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like to place you under oath. Lieutenant 2 can you please raise your right hand. 3 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 4 the truth during this interview? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Thank you sir. All 7 right. Please just let me know if you don't 8 understand these questions and I'll try to 9 rephrase them or put them in a different way 10 add clarification. So what is your home 11 address? 12 MR. -: 13 MR. : And what is your date of 14 birth? 15 MR. -: 16 MR. : And your Social Security 17 number? 18 MR. 19 MR. : Thank you. And your 20 current cell phone number. 21 MR. 22 MR. : And what's your highest 23 level of education? 24 MR. : Um bachelors. 25 MR. : Where? EFTA00110702 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Criminal justice. 2 MR. : Criminal justice. Where 3 did you get that from? 4 MR. : John Jay. 5 MR. : Is that in New York City? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : And when did you 8 graduate? 9 MR. : 2006, I think. 10 MR. : Okay. And what did you 11 do prior to working for the BOP? 12 MR. : Uh TSA. 13 MR. : Um okay. And what did 14 you do for TSA? 15 MR. : I was a screener at JFK. 16 MR. : How long did you do that? 17 MR. : Mm six and a half years. 18 MR. : From approximately when 19 until when? 20 MR. : '02 to '09. 21 MR. : '02 to '09. Okay. And 22 do you have any military service? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. And how long have 25 you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? EFTA00110703 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm like about 20 years. 2 MR. : Twenty years. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Oh, okay. So you did it 5 while you were with TSA? 6 MR. : I did TSA is federal. And I 7 8 MR. : No-no-no. With the BOP. 9 How long have you served with the BOP? 10 MR. : The BOP? 11 MR. : Sorry. 12 MR. : Twelve years. 13 MR. : Twelve years. Okay. 14 From when until when. 15 MR. : '09 to present. 16 MR. : What was your Enter on 17 Duty Date? 18 MR. Mm June 21st I think uh 2009/ 19 MR. : Okay. Any breaks of 20 service? 21 MR. : Nah. 22 MR. : Okay. And when did you 23 do you know when you graduated BOP training? 24 MR. : Mm I think it's September or 25 August. EFTA00110704 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : Of ;09? 2 MR. : You're talking about GLYNCO, 3 right? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah '09. 6 MR. : '09. Okay. And when and 7 where was your first office assignment with the 8 BOP? 9 MR. : New York. 10 MR. : Uh which institution? 11 MR. : MCC. 12 MR. : Were you with MCC the 13 whole time? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Oh, okay. And when did 16 you become a lieutenant? 17 MR. : What's this '21 - 2019, 118 18 I think December 17th I did a temp. 19 MR. : December of 2017? 20 MR. '17. Yeah. 21 MR. : And when did you leave 22 the MCC? 23 MR. : I left December '19. 24 MR. : December of 2019? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110705 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : And then is that when you 2 came here to the FCI Danbury? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And um did you come here 5 for a promotion? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : So were you a GS9 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. : I was a 9 there but I got TDY 10 down there. So I was 11 also there. 11 MR. : Oh you were? 12 MR. : Yeah. I got TDY for about 13 four months. 14 MR. : Okay. Can you just - 15 what does that mean? 16 MR. : Temporary Duty. Like I 17 was picked up. I got my promotion, but I had 18 to stay down there for a few months until I 19 came up here. 20 MR. : Okay. So FCI Danbury. 21 You were promoted to an 11 but they had you 22 stay down there as an 11 for four months? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So when were you actually 25 picked up? EFTA00110706 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : About three months. In 2 October, September, October, November, three 3 months. Yeah. 4 MR. : So when did you actually 5 get your promotion? 6 MR. Mm September. 7 MR. : Of 2019? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And when did you 10 physically come to the FCI Danbury? 11 MR. : December. 12 MR. : December. Okay. And 13 your current position is still GS11 lieutenant? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what was your 16 position at the MCC on August 9th and 10th of 17 2019? 18 MR. : Uh August you said 10th? 19 MR. : Yeah. So August - you 20 said September you got your 11 so I'm assuming 21 in August of 2019 you were 22 MR. : I was a 9 then. 23 MR. : -- a 9 lieutenant. 24 MR. : Yeah. In August yeah. 25 MR. : And this is just for my EFTA00110707 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 own knowledge. What is the difference between 2 a 9 lieutenant and an 11 lieutenant? 3 MR. : Pretty much you could - 4 if you at 9 you can't run the institution. 5 Because it's not a higher rank. So like 11 or 6 the only ones who can without a captain. 7 You're the highest. But a 9 you can't be the 8 highest. 9 MR. : So does that mean like as 10 far as like being the ops lieutenant versus the 11 activities' lieutenant? 12 MR. : Nah. You could be ops as a 13 9. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : But - but -. 16 MR. : So like acting captain 17 you mean? 18 MR. : No. Say like if it's a 9, 19 it's like evening watch. Four to twelve or 20 midnight. The 11 is the highest authority. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : As a 9 you can't do that. 23 You have to have 11 or above for 9 to be in 24 authority. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00110708 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So you can be an ops 3 lieutenant but somebody else has to be there 4 that's higher than you? 5 MR. : Yeah. If you a 9 yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you recall what 7 shift you worked on August 9th and 10th of 8 2019? 9 MR. : August 9th? What day was 10 that? 11 MR. : It's August 9th - sorry. 12 We'll just talk about August 9th. August 9th, 13 2019 that was the day before Epstein was found 14 dead. It was a Friday. 15 MR. : So the Friday. I probably 16 was day watch. 17 MR. : Okay. I'm going to give 18 you the daily roster from that date just do you 19 can reprint it. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Um anytime I give you a 22 document - you don't have to do it right away - 23 but you can - I'm just going to have you 24 initial and date each document. It's just for 25 the record we can say that's the document you EFTA00110709 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 looked at. And we don't like replace 2 something. You know what I mean? 3 MR. : Mm-hm. 4 MR. : Um so on that can you 5 find your name and see where it is that you 6 worked just to verify? 7 MR. : Yeah. I did overtime from 8 6:00 to 2:00. 9 MR. : From 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 10 p.m.? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : And that was on August 13 9th? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Do you know if you - 16 there were the specific times that you worked? 17 I know for instance the individual that was the 18 activities' lieutenant after you. She didn't 19 start until 4:00 p.m. because she had her 20 regular time shift until 4:00 p.m. 21 MR. : Mm-hm. 22 MR. : Would that mean that you 23 had worked until 4:00? Or would you still have 24 stopped at 2:00? 25 MR. : Uh I don't know. EFTA00110710 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 MR. : Do you usually have to 2 wait until the new activities' lieutenant comes 3 on board? 4 MR. Mm that's was -. But 5 she wasn't a lieutenant here though. 6 MR. : No. She was an SIS, but 7 she got I guess temporarily promoted. At least 8 for that day to be able to be the activities' 9 lieutenant. But she was in attorney conference 10 until 4:00 p.m. And she didn't start as the 11 activities' lieutenant until 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. : I don't remember. But I know 13 we usually - even though it says 8:00 to 4:00, 14 we usually do 6:00 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00 15 anyway. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : We relieve people early. 18 MR. : Right. And my 19 understanding is it's for traffic purposes. 20 MR. : So if the 9th I would have 21 came on then. She wouldn't have to stay until 22 4:00. I don't know. 23 MR. : How does that typically 24 work though I guess. Would it be - do you have 25 to be relieved before you can leave? EFTA00110711 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 MR. Mm you mean for me? 2 MR. : Yeah. Like if you're the 3 activities' lieutenant at the MCC back in 4 August of 2019. Are you allowed to leave 5 before the new activities' lieutenant takes 6 over? Or do you have to wait until she's done? 7 I'm just trying to help refresh your memory if 8 you can -. 9 MR. : I'm not sure. I know how we 10 do it is someone day I got you. I'll cover 11 you. Then we relieved. 12 MR. : But you don't 13 specifically remember this date? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Not the fact that like 16 Epstein died the day after. Does that help you 17 like kind of refresh your memory of what your 18 involvement may have been? 19 MR. : I know I was doing day watch. 20 I was doing day watch. I do know that. But as 21 far as who relieved and all that. No. I don't 22 remember that. 23 MR. : All right. We can 24 probably just grab your time and attendance 25 records then later just to try to EFTA00110712 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 (Indiscernible * *00:12:34) that down. But you 2 just can't remember at this point? 3 MR. : What you asked me was I 4 there? 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just I 6 mean from the 2:00 to 4:00. You don't remember 7 if you would have - you had to wait until 8 was actually in place before you left or 9 not. 10 MR. Nah. I don't know. I could 11 have been there at 4:00 because I left at 2:00. 12 I'm not sure. 13 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So you either worked 16 until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 p.m. you just don't 17 recall. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. And who did 20 you - on that date - who would have you 21 primarily worked with? 22 MR. : Mm I don't know. Because 23 Friday -. I don't know why I'm doing overtime 24 on Friday. I'm trying to think. And is 25 normally not the ops lieutenant though either. EFTA00110713 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : Is that because he was a 2 9? 3 MR. is 11. He's SHU 4 lieutenant. 5 MR. : At that time was the 6 SHU lieutenant. 7 MR. : Oh no-no-no was the SHU 8 lieutenant. Okay. So if I'm on Friday and 9 Saturday, then -. 10 MR. : Well here if -. 11 MR. : Maybe. I don't know. You 12 have my what's her name records? 13 MR. : This is Saturday. So I'm 14 giving you the daily assignment roster. 15 MR. : I'm thinking this is my day 16 off. I'm thinking Friday was my day off. So I 17 came in for the overtime on Friday. If I'm on 18 Friday and Saturday, then I would be ops. 19 That's what I'm thinking. 20 MR. : Did you work on Saturday? 21 MR. : Saturday I was off. 22 MR. : Okay. So you're not on 23 that list that I just gave you for Saturday? 24 MR. : No. I should be on day 25 watch. EFTA00110714 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : This the day Epstein died 3 right? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Yeah. I wasn't there that 6 day. 7 MR. : Okay. But you just can't 8 remember if you worked until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 9 p.m. on August 9th. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Again there's no reason 12 that I'm asking you this specifically right 13 now. It's just to try to make sure we know 14 what time you worked there. 15 MR. : Well you trying to see if 16 there's a pattern of -. 17 MR. : no-no-no. Not a pattern. 18 It's not looking at you. It's just to - you 19 know when we talk to people, we say like what 20 time were you there from. Just because in 21 knowing that didn't start until - 22 because there's no reason for us at this point 23 to get your time and attendance records. 24 Because again we're just talking to everybody 25 that was there on each day. EFTA00110715 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : I'm just trying to -. 3 When we talk to you, we just need to lock down 4 each person. What time were you there until? 5 MR. : I don't know. 6 MR. : We have specific questions 7 about what happened during the day. But if 8 you're not there during the day during that 9 specific time -. 10 MR. : Some questions might not 11 apply to you. 12 MR. : Apply to you. That's what 13 we're trying to figure out. So what time were 14 you there until. 15 MR. : I mean so you want to ask me 16 questions up until 4:00 is what you're saying? 17 MR. : We'll ask you 18 specifically questions -. 19 MR. : Well you can do it but if I 20 don' remember I just say I don't remember. 21 MR. : Yeah. That's fine. You 22 just don't. but at this point you just don't 23 know if you were there until 4:00. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Um and you don't remember EFTA00110716 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 relieving . Or relieving you. 2 MR. : no. 3 MR. : And do you remember being 4 relieved by anyone? 5 MR. : no. 6 MR. : No? All right. But I 7 guess then that goes back to my original 8 question. Do you need to be relieved by 9 someone in order to leave? 10 MR. : Um normally. It depends. 11 MR. : Can there be just an ops 12 lieutenant and no activities' lieutenant on 13 during the day? 14 MR. : Yeah. That could be any day. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : So it's just - there's 18 no-. these are genuine questions. We don't 19 know the answers to these. So that's not like 20 abnormal to have like just like a two-hour gap 21 where there's no activities' lieutenant? 22 MR. : No. We was going a lot of 23 work up until this. We were doing a lot of 24 work. So some days you'll be there. I'm quite 25 sure looking at the records, you'll see my name EFTA00110717 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 by itself. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : So. 4 MR. : On some days there was 5 just like one activity or one ops lieutenant? 6 There was nobody -? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. And that was 9 Monday through Friday? Not just on weekends? 10 MR. : Any day. 11 MR. : Or night shifts? Or 12 morning? 13 MR. : Any days. It was a busy time 14 back then. 15 MR. : Yes. Um. Okay. Do you 16 know at that time who was your supervisor? 17 MR. : Uh the captain. Captain 18 19 MR. : Okay. And as the 20 activities' lieutenant, and you said it was day 21 watch? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : What were your duties and 24 responsibilities? 25 MR. : Rounds um orderly EFTA00110718 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 institution. Running the institution. 2 MR. : And what does a round 3 consist of as a lieutenant? 4 MR. : Going up to the unit. 5 Speaking to the officer. If you want, go to 6 unit team. Do the tiers. See what's going on. 7 MR. : Now at that time, did 8 lieutenant -? When you say go do tiers. Were 9 Lieutenants responsible for conducting rounds 10 of inmates as well? Like you know walking up 11 and down the tiers to make sure? 12 MR. : Something like that. I mean 13 that's - are we - the lieutenants responsible 14 for that? 15 MR. : Yeah. I know that that's 16 the CO's primary responsibility. But when you 17 are conducting a round in like a unit, 18 specifically we'll talk about the SHU. If you 19 visit the SHU, and on this date, there was no 20 SHU lieutenant. Correct? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So if you were visiting 23 the SHU, are you responsible to conduct any 24 rounds of the tiers as a lieutenant? 25 MR. : Yeah. The lieutenant has to EFTA00110719 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 make a round in SHU each shift. 2 MR. : So when I say - but when 3 you visit the SHU, is it just visiting the SHU? 4 Checking in with the officers? Or do you - I 5 mean - checking in with the COs or is it 6 actually also doing a round of - where the 7 inmates are located and looking in their cells? 8 MR. : I mean yeah, you're supposed 9 to do a round. 10 MR. : Okay. So that -. 11 MR. : You mean exactly what do you 12 supposed to specifically do? 13 MR. : Yeah. I guess what I'm 14 asking is what does a lieutenant round in the 15 SHU consist of? 16 MR. : I don't know. I know for me, 17 I used to like to go down the tiers. 18 MR. : To actually check on the 19 inmates. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So you're actually doing 22 -? 23 MR. : Do a whole complete round. 24 MR. : So you're actually doing 25 a round of the inmates not just doing a round EFTA00110720 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 in the SHU to say hey are you guys good with 2 the officers. 3 MR. : Yeah. Unless something 4 happens. Like if something happens you know. 5 They just say you all right - it was a BA. All 6 right. I'll be back or something like that. 7 But. 8 MR. : Right-right. You mean if 9 you got called out or something like that - you 10 needed the run. 11 MR. : That or they call you. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Something specific to a 14 specific tale or -. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But were you 16 responsible - and this is just in general not 17 just specifically you? It's any lieutenant. 18 If there's no SHU lieutenant responsible to do 19 a round on day watch of the inmates when they 20 visit the SHU. 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You're not sure. But you 23 did. 24 MR. : That day? 25 MR. : No I mean just in EFTA00110721 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 general. Like when you would visit the SHU you 2 would do that? 3 MR. : Yeah. Say like if I fill in 4 or whatever. And there's no SHU lieutenant to 5 say hey you got to make a round. All right. 6 Or you have activities do it or whatever. 7 MR. : So ops lieutenant tells 8 you to do the round? 9 MR. : Anyone could say hey I'm 10 going up there or hey I got the round or 11 whatever. 12 MR. : Does a lieutenant have to 13 do a round on that shift? 14 MR. : That would be yeah you have 15 to do a round. 16 MR. : Okay. So at least one 17 lieutenant on day watch on August 9, 2019, had 18 to do a round in the SHU of the inmates? 19 MR. : On day watch? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Uh yeah. 22 MR. : What about night watch 23 and morning watch? Do they have to do it on 24 those? 25 MR. : Night watch and morning watch EFTA00110722 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 yeah. 2 MR. : So every shift a 3 lieutenant has to -. 4 MR. : Three shifts you got to do a 5 round. 6 MR. : And that -? 7 MR. : Supposed to do a round. 8 MR. : And that's with the 9 inmates not just checking in? 10 MR. : I'm not sure. 11 MR. : Oh you're not sure. But 12 you would? When you did it? 13 MR. : I'm on (Indiscernible * 14 *00:19:51). I'm trying to move around. 15 like to hit the tiers. 16 MR. : Okay. Cool. Do you remember 17 who you replaced on that day? 18 MR. : Who I relieved? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who I relieved? 21 MR. : Who relieved -? 22 MR. : Nobody. 23 MR. : So because there's no 24 activities' lieutenant prior to you? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110723 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : And that's because yeah 2 there's only - for the morning watch is there 3 only an ops lieutenant? 4 MR. : Yep. 5 MR. : So you were the first one 6 in on that day? And you said you arrived when? 7 MR. : Um 6:00. 8 MR. : 6:00 a.m. Okay. And you 9 said you just don't recall who replaced you or 10 if you stayed until 4:00. Correct? 11 MR. : Yeah. Did you look at the 12 video? 13 MR. : We didn't - haven't had a 14 reason to yet. I just assumed you would have 15 remembered. 16 MR. : No. I don't remember. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : It was '19. 19 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No just 20 because of the - you know this was probably one 21 of the biggest things that's ever happened. 22 MR. : Yeah but that's why I'm like 23 why are they asking about it now? That's why 24 I'm like -. 25 MR. : Yeah. I mean now is just EFTA00110724 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 because there's things that have happened in 2 the past month that now is creating a -- 3 MR. : Oh with the case. 4 MR. : Yeah. That we now have 5 to interview a ton of people to be able to find 6 out who was there, what happened, and all that 7 kind of stuff. 8 MR. : Yeah. But I'm not sure about 9 the time on that. 10 MR. : All right. And are you 11 familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Did you ever work or 14 visit the SHU while Epstein was assigned to the 15 SHU in July and August 2019? 16 MR. : Probably yeah. 17 MR. : Did Epstein have a 18 cellmate when he was in the SHU? 19 MR. : Up until that day, right? 20 MR. : Yes. And do you know if 21 there was a reason why Epstein was assigned a 22 cellmate? 23 MR. : In SHU you're supposed to be 24 double bunked. 25 MR. : Okay. So -. EFTA00110725 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 MR. : Even if you don't have the 2 whole prior thing before. 3 MR. : So everybody in the SHU 4 is supposed to be? 5 MR. : Not everybody. But you got 6 certain cases. But he was supposed to have a 7 bunk. 8 MR. : So as far as who would - 9 who wouldn't be assigned a cellmate? 10 MR. : House alone, rec alone 11 inmates. You know hunger strike inmates, 12 NPOs... 13 MR. : But Epstein was one of 14 those inmates that should have had a cellmate? 15 MR. : Yeah. He was a regular 16 inmate. Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. Um are you aware 18 that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on 19 July 23, 2019? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And were you one of the 22 responding officers to that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Were you - did you have 25 any involvement with it? EFTA00110726 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That incident? No. 2 MR. : No. Do you know what 3 transpired? 4 MR. : They say he put something 5 around his neck. In his cell. And that was 6 it. 7 MR. : Did you ever hear any 8 rumors that his cell mate may have tried to 9 harm him? 10 MR. : Oh yeah. You're talking 11 about um Yeah. I heard about that. Yeah. 12 MR. : What did you hear about 13 that? 14 MR. : That it was a ploy for him to 15 get bail. Something like that. 16 MR. : All right. So did you -? 17 Is your understanding that he actually did try 18 to harm himself? Or was it your understanding 19 that his cell mate tried to harm him? 20 MR. : You're talking about the 21 rumor? 22 MR. : Yeah. What is your 23 understanding of -- 24 MR. : The rumor was the guy -- 25 MR. : -- what actually -? EFTA00110727 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 MR. : -- also had a high-profile 2 case. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : And I think Epstein was up 5 for a bail hearing. So they made it look like 6 he was doing that in order to get bail. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Do you think there was 10 any legitimacy to the rumor? 11 MR. : I don't know. Not after 12 this. Nah. 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : All right. So do you 16 believe that he did actually try to harm 17 himself on July 23rd? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. Um do you know as 20 a result of July 23rd if Epstein - if anything 21 happened with Epstein? Was he removed from the 22 SHU and placed anywhere else? 23 MR. : Mm. He went to suicide 24 watch. 25 MR. : Okay. And what happens EFTA00110728 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 on suicide watch? Is that outside of the SHU? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : And then after you get 4 placed on suicide watch. Is that a temporary 5 thing and then you get moved over to psych 6 observation? 7 MR. : Not all the time. No. 8 That's up to psych. Psych makes that call. 9 MR. : Do you - are you aware if 10 Epstein was outside of the SHU and on suicide 11 watch or psych observation for approximately 12 one week? 13 MR. : I know he was definitely on 14 there. Because I remember seeing him. 15 MR. : You saw him there? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Um is that because you 18 were doing rounds? Or why did you see him 19 there? 20 MR. : I had to - because I'm the 21 one who does the showers. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : For suicide inmates. Or 24 psych watch if you're down there. So he was 25 down there one day - probably a couple days. EFTA00110729 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 But I know I took him to the shower one time. 2 Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. So you had some 4 interaction with him. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : While he was on suicide 7 watch. 8 MR. : Suicide watch. Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. And I just thought 10 - I thought you were only on suicide watch for 11 like 24 hours. And then after that it was 12 called psych observation. Is that not your 13 understanding? 14 MR. : It's up to psych. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That's a psych call. 17 MR. : But is it in the same - 18 they're in the same location. Correct? 19 MR. : Yeah but people who are on 20 suicide watch longer than 24 hours. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So your understanding the 24 whole time he was there it was called suicide 25 watch? EFTA00110730 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I don't remember. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : The whole time he was there. 4 MR. : Um do you know when he 5 was removed from suicide watch? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Do you know why he was 8 removed from suicide watch? 9 MR. : He would be moved because 10 psych said it's okay. 11 MR. : Okay. And when someone 12 is on suicide watch, what does it entail? 13 MR. : You have a suicide smock. 14 Suicide mattress. And a suicide blanket. And 15 you allow pretty much no items unless they 16 approved it, there's a book they have. 17 MR. : Okay. And what's the 18 difference? What is the difference between 19 psych observation? What does that entail? 20 MR. : You got the clothes. 21 MR. : All right. So when 22 you're on suicide watch, you don't have 23 clothes? 24 MR. : Naked. 25 MR. : You're naked the whole EFTA00110731 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 time? And you know if Epstein was naked that 2 whole time? 3 MR. : He had a smock and a -. 4 Yeah. He didn't have no clothes. 5 MR. : He didn't have clothes 6 when he was on suicide watch? 7 MR. : You can't have clothes on 8 suicide watch. 9 MR. : Okay. All right. So 10 does it sound right that he would have been 11 removed about a week later around July 30th. 12 Does that sound like a date -- 13 MR. : I don't know. 14 MR. : -- or you're not sure? 15 MR. Mm-hm I don't know. 16 MR. : Okay. Did you ever 17 receive any instructions from anyone with 18 regard to Epstein being assigned a cellmate 19 after he came back from suicide watch? 20 MR. : I'm not sure. 21 MR. : You don't remember any 22 verbal conversations or anything like that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : All right. I'm going to 25 show you an email. And then you can tell me if EFTA00110732 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you remember receiving it. An email from a 2 Do you know who that is? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. It's to 5 Suicide Watch / Psych Observation Update. And 6 that's also what the subject is. And it's from 7 July 30, 2019. It says, "Inmate Epstein" and 8 it gives his reg number. "Is being taken off 9 of psych observation and needs to be housed 10 with an appropriate cellmate." Do you recall 11 receiving -? 12 MR. : Yeah. It's a generic. We 13 always get those. 14 MR. : You get those? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : There's names on the 17 back. It shows that you were one of them and 18 that you read it. Do you see your name? Yeah. 19 It would be under J. So. It's all 20 alphabetical. 21 MR. : It's under what? 22 MR. : It would be your first 23 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. 24 MR. : So does that ring a bell? 25 Do you remember getting that? EFTA00110733 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. Cool. And then do 3 you recall -? So you are aware that he needed 4 a cellmate then. Correct? You already said 5 that you knew he needed one because he was a 6 regular inmate. Right? 7 MR. : Yeah. But I don't know what 8 this is at 12:30 the 30th right? 9 MR. : Yeah 7:30 - so yeah. 10 MR. : Oh it was 7:30 July 30th? 11 So he got off on July 30th? 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Placed back in the SHU 15 and required a cellmate. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And just before we 18 forget. Do you mind just initialing and dating 19 each one of these documents just so that they 20 don't start piling up? And as well as that 21 email. Thank you, sir. Now do you remember 22 having any conversations with anyone else like 23 verbal. Like or anybody regarding the 24 need for him to have a cellmate? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110734 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : Because, I'm assuming, he 2 was the most high-profile if not one of the 3 most high-profile inmates at the time. 4 Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : So would that be 7 something that they would - people would 8 usually communicate with the activities and the 9 ops lieutenant about? 10 MR. : I mean if you got the email. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : You got a follow-up that 14 you wanted to ask something? 15 MR. : We'll finish up on this. 16 Because it's going back one. 17 MR. : No-no. Please. Go 18 ahead. 19 MR. : So you mentioned that you had 20 interacted with Epstein when he was on suicide 21 watch. You took him for his showers. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : How was the interactions with 24 him? 25 MR. : You know, cuff up, take him EFTA00110735 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to the shower. 2 MR. : Did you ever talk to him? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Was he pleasant? Were there 5 any issues with that? 6 MR. : He was saying hey, while I'm 7 down here, pretty much he asked why he was down 8 here. I said well, he was like yeah, I'm not 9 suicidal, such-and-such. And you know let me 10 talk to psych so I could get off this. I don't 11 think he liked it. 12 MR. : This was immediately after 13 the July 23rd? 14 MR. : I don't know exactly what day 15 it was. But you know it was around there. 16 MR. : Got it. 17 MR. : We're going to follow-up 18 with some of those more lines of questioning 19 later on in the interview. Um so you don't 20 recall though receiving specific instructions 21 from Captain or anyone else with regard 22 to Epstein? You just - you do know he needed 23 one and you did get the email? 24 MR. : These come all the time. Any 25 inmate comes off of watch, they send it out. EFTA00110736 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : And should everyone know 2 if someone comes off of watch that they are 3 required to have a cellmate? 4 MR. : I'm not sure. I mean that's 5 what they do. They come out. Anyone comes off 6 suicide watch, you put them in with a cellmate. 7 MR. : Yeah. And that's pretty 8 general, common knowledge. Correct? And where 9 do you learn that? Is that from your daily 10 operations? Or do you learn that in training 11 as well? 12 MR. : I don't know. I guess it's 13 daily operations. 14 MR. : Okay. But most people 15 should know that a person coming off of suicide 16 watch is required to have a cellmate. 17 MR. : Uh I mean it depends. I 18 don't know. I know we get these emails though. 19 They send them out any time an inmate comes 20 off. You try to put them with a cellmate. But 21 then again like I said in the SHU, it's you 22 know. Because even if they come off suicide 23 watch, they don't -. Say like they come off 24 they stay in SHU for a year. They have to have 25 a cellmate for a year. You understand what I'm EFTA00110737 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 saying? So as far as the notice we get, but do 2 everyone know that? I'm not sure about that. 3 MR. : But you knew. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : How did you know though? 6 MR. : I got the email. 7 MR. : Okay. So, your knowledge 8 is from the email, but earlier, you said that 9 anybody in the SHU, anyway, needs to a cell 10 mate? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : All right. So, he had 13 basically two requirements to him. One, there 14 was the email that he received; also, the fact 15 that he was in the SHU, and he didn't have any 16 of those special requirements, like, he was 17 going to harm someone else, or something like 18 that, that he should have had a cellmate? 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : All right. And do you 21 know if you ever communicated that to anybody, 22 when you visited the SHU in July or August of 23 2019? 24 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. 25 MR. : Like, the people that EFTA00110738 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 worked in the SHU, would have you would have 2 been as the activities' lieutenant, if you're 3 doing a round in there. Is that something that 4 you would address? 5 MR. : Bring up? Yeah. If I - yeah 6 - but if he had a - one - if he had a cellmate, 7 though. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Yeah. Bring something up if 10 they didn't. Uh-huh. 11 MR. : So, you'd only bring it 12 up if you knew he didn't have one? 13 MR. : So, like, if you say, hey, 14 guys, how many single cells I have? Such and 15 such. Hey, what's going on? Hey, well, this is 16 the reason. Yeah. 17 MR. : And is that something - 18 when you would visit the SHU - is that 19 something you would ask? How many single cells 20 do you have? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Is that a like one of the 23 check-the-box things? Does everybody that 24 visits the SHU -- 25 MR. : I can't speak for everybody. EFTA00110739 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 But I know, even as OIC, we said, hey, you know 2 the fine, we have single cells. Maneuver to 3 condense it for space. Stuff like that. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So, I don't know if everyone 6 (Indiscernible *00:32:18) into it. 7 MR. : But that's what you would 8 do? When you were the activities' lieutenant? 9 MR. : No. Sometimes. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : If I seen someone without, 12 hey, what's going on with this dude? Well, he's 13 housed (Indiscernible *00:32:28) room. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : But when you would visit 17 the SHU, was that something you would address, 18 saying how many single cells do we got? 19 MR. : I'm not the SHU lieutenant. 20 MR. : Oh, only if you're the 21 SHU lieutenant? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : I'm talking about 24 MR. : The SHU lieutenant -- 25 MR. : -- when you do your EFTA00110740 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 rounds. 2 MR. : -- you do the rounds, you 3 only say it if you know that someone got - a 4 new come in. Okay, you got space for him. No. 5 Right now, we've got to put him in a single 6 cell, or something like that. 7 MR. : Okay. And were you ever 8 the SHU lieutenant? 9 MR. : At MCC? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : I don't think so. I was 12 never SHU lieutenant. 13 MR. : Okay. But do you 14 remember ever having any conversations with 15 anyone in the SHU -- 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : -- at the MCC about 18 Epstein and his cellmate requirement? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : No? All right. So, 21 referring to the duty assignment roster, who 22 were the MCC's supervisors on duty, with 23 responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 24 9, 2019, when you were working? 25 MR. : It would be me and EFTA00110741 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : So, the two of you would 2 be responsible? 3 MR. : On day watch. Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. And then, would it 5 be the same thing for the shift after you? 6 Would that be the activities' lieutenant and 7 the ops lieutenant? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And is that because, when 10 the SHU lieutenant is not there, activities' 11 lieutenant and ops lieutenant always have 12 oversight of the SHU? 13 MR. : Well, I told you we have to 14 make a round. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : In SHU. Yeah. 17 MR. : But that would be the 18 lieutenants - they would be the lieutenants 19 that would have oversight over the SHU, 20 correct? 21 MR. : Yeah. Pretty much. 22 MR. : Okay. On August 9th, 23 what communications did you have with any of 24 the other lieutenants with regard to Epstein 25 being housed with the MCC, or the MCC SHU? Can EFTA00110742 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you recall? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : And again, thinking back, 4 this is like one of the biggest things that's 5 ever happened when you were there, this guy 6 dies. Can you remember any conversations you 7 had the day before, with anyone, with regards 8 to Epstein? 9 MR. : I just know that he used to 10 come to legal all the time. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Attorney conference, pretty 13 much the whole day. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : And that's about it. 16 MR. : And about what time would 17 he be moved to attorney conference? 18 MR. : Early. Like, probably 8:00 19 in the morning. 20 MR. : And who would be the 21 person that would move him there? 22 MR. : The SHU staff. Get him out 23 the SHU. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : He was in SHU. EFTA00110743 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 MR. : And what would the - as 2 the activities' lieutenant, did you visit him 3 at all in attorney conference, or check on him? 4 Is that part of your round process? 5 MR. : It's not part of the rounds, 6 but if you see him in there, if you standing by 7 the elevators or something like that, yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : But you're not - you don't 10 have to check. No. 11 MR. : All right. Did anyone 12 ever provide you with special instructions, 13 with regards to Epstein? 14 MR. : Special instructions? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Like? Something - no. 17 MR. : No? 18 MR. : With special instructions? 19 Like -? 20 MR. : Like, conversations with 21 Epstein, hey, make sure you do this. Just 22 Epstein, make sure this is going - you know? 23 guess specific instructions. Maybe "special" 24 isn't the right word -- 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110744 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 MR. : -- but did anyone ever 2 specifically say, you know, this is Epstein, 3 we've got to make sure we're doing this? 4 MR. : Hmm-mm. No. Not that I 5 recall. 6 MR. : No? Did any lieutenants 7 ever talk to you about Epstein's requirement to 8 have a cellmate? 9 MR. Hmm-mm. I mean, it's not -. 10 Like I said, we've got the email. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : There's no one saying, hey, 13 by the way, from my understanding didn't he 14 have a cellmate up until then? I think he had a 15 cellmate since he got out of the suicide watch. 16 So, I don't think there was a lapse in it. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So, what about up until 20 then? You're saying, so -- 21 MR. : Right. Yeah. The cellmate, 22 right? 23 MR. : -- so, what is your 24 understanding of what happened -- 25 MR. : What happened? EFTA00110745 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- on August 9th? 2 MR. : His cellmate went to court, 3 and either went to transferred, or got 4 released, or something. And never came back. 5 And then, you know, that night, he went out, he 6 went without a cellmate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, we'll get into that. 10 I'll ask you a couple more questions, then, 11 just to make sure we stay on kind of page, at 12 the bottom of this page, you see, we're going 13 to start talking about that inmate. And I'll 14 just - what you knew about that. You said the 15 lieutenants are responsible for conducting 16 rounds. Are they responsible for conducting 17 counts in the SHU? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : No? So, like, just 20 around, nothing to do with counts when you were 21 -? 22 MR. : Count is for officers. 23 MR. : Okay. And you don't need 24 to oversee them as the lieutenant, or anything 25 like that? EFTA00110746 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : You could take a count, but 2 usually, you're doing patrol, you're not doing 3 the count with the officers. 4 MR. : Right. So, in physically 5 presence in the SHU, the only time that the 6 lieutenant is involved is actually with rounds, 7 not with counts? 8 MR. : Not with counts. 9 MR. : Okay. And did you 10 conduct any rounds in the SHU, on August 9, 11 2019? 12 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't 13 recall. 14 MR. : You don't remember? 15 Again, you're placing yourself back on one of 16 the biggest incidences, and you know all this 17 circus that's been going on since that time. 18 MR. : Yeah, I know. 19 MR. : So, you can't really put 20 yourself back on that day of, like, hey, what 21 was my involvement with this, and did I -? 22 MR. : No. No. I had no 23 involvement with this. 24 MR. : Well, that's what I mean, 25 but you -- EFTA00110747 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : You were the activities' 3 lieutenant, you know, on the, you know, the day 4 before. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And specifically, like 7 you just said, on the day before, when his 8 cellmate was removed. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, you can't remember? 11 MR. : If I did a round, then no. 12 MR. : Okay. So, you can't -. 13 Then, do you remember having any conversations 14 with any of the people listed in there, on your 15 shift, in the SHU? On that date, specifically 16 with regard to Epstein, or , his cellmate. 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : All right. And it'll be, 19 like, a . None of those 22 people? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. So, you didn't 25 speak to any of those people about Epstein EFTA00110748 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 being required to have a celimate since his 2 celimate was gone? 3 MR. : You're talking about that 4 day? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Or you're just saying -- 7 MR. : On the day that -- 8 MR. -- I can't remember. 9 MR. : -- okay. All right. The 10 people that are in the SHU, are they 11 responsible for conducting counts and round 12 during their shift? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : As far as the shift that 15 you worked, on day watch, what is your 16 understanding of how many rounds and counts 17 they should have done? 18 MR. : There's no counts on day 19 watch. 20 MR. : Okay. What about the 21 rounds? 22 MR. : The rounds, every - you're 23 doing a certain shift, we go about. So, you do 24 one, say, like, 8:00 to 8:30, you do one. 8:30 25 to 9:00, you do one. EFTA00110749 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 MR. : So, every 30 minutes? 2 MR. : Every 30 minutes. Not to 3 exceed 40 minutes. They're regular rounds. 4 MR. : Okay. And you're 5 supposed to do one of those rounds with them, 6 but you can't recall whether you did or not? 7 MR. : No. We're not supposed to do 8 rounds with them. No. 9 MR. : You're supposed to just 10 do your own round? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Do our round in SHU. 14 MR. : And can you recall if you 15 did your round in SHU? 16 MR. : No, I can't. 17 MR. : You can't recall? Would 18 it be abnormal if you didn't? 19 MR. : I can't recall. 20 MR. : You can't recall if it 21 would be abnormal if you didn't? 22 MR. : If I didn't do the round? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Would it be abnormal? I mean, 25 I'm not the SHU lieutenant. That's what I'm EFTA00110750 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 saying. 2 MR. : But there's no SHU 3 lieutenant, you said, that, you know, you or 4 would be responsible. So, I'm saying, 5 would it be abnormal if you didn't do it? So, 6 would you normally have done it? I know you 7 said you're responsible for it. 8 MR. : No. The lieutenants are 9 responsible, but if a Monday through Friday, if 10 a SHU lieutenant is there, there's no reason 11 for me to go up there. 12 MR. : But there's no SHU 13 lieutenant. 14 MR. : Right. So, but I don't 15 recall if I did a round or not. No. 16 MR. : Okay. But the last 17 question wasn't that. I'm saying, would it 18 have been abnormal if you didn't do one? I know 19 you can't recall it -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- but would you normally 22 have done it, if there's no SHU lieutenant? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah? So, knowing 25 yourself, you probably would -. EFTA00110751 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : If there's no SHU lieutenant, 2 yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : When did you become aware 6 that inmate was removed from the MCC on 7 August 9, 2019? 8 MR. : I don't know. 9 MR. : What is -. 10 MR. : The only thing I heard is, I 11 know, I woke up, they're saying, I saw the 12 story. 13 MR. : What is your involvement, 14 as the activities' lieutenant that day, with 15 inmates who are going to court? 16 MR. : I didn't have no involvement. 17 MR. : So, the activities 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:41:32). 19 MR. : -- lieutenant is not 20 involved? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Is the ops lieutenant 23 involved? 24 MR. : Not really, no. 25 MR. : So, who is involved? Who EFTA00110752 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 -? 2 MR. : R&D. Receive and Discharge. 3 MR. : Okay. And do you 4 remember who was working in R&D that day, in 5 that morning? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Are you able to tell by 8 looking at that -- 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : -- sheet? How does that 11 work? How do you find out who was in R&D for 12 that day? On that morning. 13 MR. : That's the custody roster. 14 I'm not sure. 15 MR. : So, that's a different 16 roster? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : What would that roster be 19 called? 20 MR. : I don't know. 21 MR. : You're not sure? 22 MR. : That's not our department. 23 MR. : Okay. So, did they come 24 and retrieve those individuals from the SHU, or 25 does the SHU staff bring them to R&D? EFTA00110753 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MR. : It depends. If it's busy, 2 you say, hey, I need help, they go up and help 3 you out. If not, the SHU crew, all right, take 4 them down. 5 MR. : So, if it were at a non- 6 busy traditional way, who would have been the 7 people on that roster? 8 MR. : The SHU crew. 9 MR. : And who on that day? 10 MR. : You mean, for the court 11 movements? 12 MR. : Yeah. Like, what time? 13 First of all, I guess I should say. 14 MR. : It depends - that's what I'm 15 saying - so, it depends on if they're going to 16 Brooklyn, or wherever, you start early at 6:00. 17 So, that would be morning watch or day watch. 18 MR. : So, it would be one or 19 the other? And does not - let's say if it was 20 8:00 a.m., who would have it been? 21 MR. : The day watch crew. 22 MR. : And who was on day watch 23 that day? 24 MR. : Hmm. 25 EFTA00110754 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And anybody - any of 2 those people - do you remember speaking about 3 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. And who was 6 the OIC? Who was the officer-in-charge, out of 7 that crew? 8 MR. : Hmm. 9 MR. was? Not 10 MR. : According to this, it was 11 12 MR. : Okay. So, on the 13 document, it's . All right. I'm going 14 to show you a memo that was written by 15 on August 12, 2019. And it's the subject is, 16 "Pass information from Special Housing Unit." 17 It says, "On Friday, August 9, 2019, at 18 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 19 passed on to oncoming staff, officers and 20 present shift staff, SOS , and Officer 21 , that inmate was going WAB, and 22 possibly may not return. Also, that inmate 23 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 24 from his attorney visit." So, does that 25 refresh your memory? Did you have any EFTA00110755 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 conversations with 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Who would have made 4 aware that was going WAB? 5 MR. : He could see it on the 6 roster. They send a sheet up the night before. 7 MR. : So, if that's not on the 8 night before, if on the night before, there's 9 no WAB - and this is at 1:50 p.m. that this 10 notification was made note - if there's no WAB 11 -. Well first of all what's WAB stand for? 12 MR. : With All Belongings. 13 MR. : And if WAB is not next to 14 ' name on the night before, the August 8th 15 roster, how would have he become aware at 16 around 1:50? Would normally the court call 17 R&D, and R&D pass that information along? 18 MR. : R&D could have called him. 19 MR. : So, would R&D call SHU 20 directly, or would they typically call the ops 21 or activities' lieutenant? 22 MR. : They call the SHU. 23 MR. : They do call SHU 24 directly? They wouldn't call you guys, and you 25 would have to the pass information on? EFTA00110756 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. So, is it your 3 belief, then, that if it's that, in fact, what 4 happened, if went to court, and then he 5 became WAB? Just tell me, what is your 6 understanding -- 7 MR. : I'm not sure how that one. 8 MR. : -- of how that would 9 work? 10 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 11 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying, 12 specifically, how he got it. What would be the 13 typical way that would work? If an inmate -- 14 MR. : If an inmate -. 15 MR. : -- goes to court -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- and then is released. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : How does that process 20 work? Once that inmate is released, what 21 happens from that point, for the court, how do 22 they make the notifications known to the MCC, 23 all the way down to where that inmate was 24 housed? Specifically, this one in the SHU. 25 MR. : R&D. Hey, that guy's not EFTA00110757 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 coming back. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And then, would they 5 typically say, now WAB, would that be the words 6 that they would use, or would they say, he's 7 not coming back? 8 MR. : Either/or. The WAB is 9 something that's on the roster. 10 MR. : Okay. So, is WAB 11 specific to the roster, or is WAS also if he 12 was called and told? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. I don't know. 14 I've seen it before on the roster. Like, hey, 15 this is the court list. It says WAB. 16 MR. : Right. And I'm saying 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- in this circumstance, 19 if there is no WAS -- 20 MR. : I'm not sure. 21 MR. : -- next to name -- 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : -- okay. But you didn't 24 have any conversations with 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110758 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 MR. : No? And you seem pretty 2 confident with that. Not like I can't recall. 3 You did not have any conversations with 4 5 MR. : Yeah, I had no conversations 6 with him. 7 MR. : What about with 8 Did you have any conversations with abou - 9 going WAB or not coming back? 10 MR. Pfft, I can't recall that, 11 either. 12 MR. : Did you know that 13 had left that day for court? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : So then, therefore, did 16 you not know that he was not coming back? 17 MR. : No, I didn't know. No. 18 MR. : Okay. And you don't 19 remember if you actually did a round in the SHU 20 to see that he wasn't there? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So, can you recall any 23 conversations you had that day about 24 MR. : I don't think I had no 25 conversations about EFTA00110759 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 MR. : That's what I'm asking. 2 So, you can't recall any conversations you had 3 that day about 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : And you don't think you 6 had any? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : No? Okay. All right. 9 We're going to continue with this. 10 MR. : I've got -- 11 MR. : Go ahead. 12 MR. : -- so, just to clarification. 13 The night before, how would MCC get to know 14 that is leaving? 15 MR. : Well, like I said, the court 16 list. 17 MR. : The court list. Who creates 18 it? 19 MR. : But sometimes, that's not 20 always accurate. 21 MR. : Who creates that? 22 MR. : Hmm-mm. I guess R&D. 23 MR. : And it doesn't show who's in 24 R&D over there, right? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110760 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. But R&D creates the 2 court list. And what do they do with that 3 court list? 4 MR. : They send it out to all the 5 units. So, you get one. If you're a unit 6 officer, you'll get it and say, okay, I got 7 three guys leaving, because it says WAB. So, 8 you say, hey, wake up, we're packing up, and 9 leaving. 10 MR. : They send the whole list, or 11 they just did the email saying, hey, these are 12 the inmates leaving from here? 13 MR. : Yeah. I've never seen an 14 email. I've just seen the list. 15 MR. : Okay. And it's just, like, a 16 generic email that goes out to everyone? 17 MR. : It's a call list. 18 MR. : But - sorry, I want to 19 make sure that I understood what you just said 20 - is it provided by email, or is it provided by 21 22 MR. : I've never seen it provided 23 by email. 24 MR. : -- so, you've never seen 25 it on email. It's just a list that's provided. EFTA00110761 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 So, who - R&D comes and gives it to the SHU? 2 MR. : No. They send it up. 3 MR. : So, Internal comes and 4 gets it? 5 MR. : Internal. Yeah. 6 MR. : So, on this date, would 7 you know who would have been Internal? Who 8 would have provided that list to the SHU? 9 MR. : I see who's Internal, but I'm 10 not - I don't know if they would have provided 11 it. We've got two Internals. 12 MR. : And who are the two 13 Internals? 14 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. 15 *00:48:29) and 16 MR. -: and 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : All right. So, they're 19 the two that typically - you're not saying that 20 they did - but they're typically the people 21 that would have provided the court list? 22 MR. : Yeah. Internal. That's what 23 they usually do. It could have been a 24 sanitation. 25 MR. : Now, isn't the list EFTA00110762 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 typically provided the day before, or is it 2 just created the day before? 3 MR. : I don't know. I can't Is 4 it provided the day before? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : It was provided the same day. 7 MR. : It is? 8 MR. : You get about - you get the 9 morning watch the day of. 10 MR. : I was always - I was 11 under the understanding that the night before, 12 on August 8th, they would create the list for 13 the morning, on the August 9th. Do you know -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- was that a correct 16 understanding? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. All I know is, 18 if you're an officer, you get it the day of. 19 MR. : All right. So -. 20 MR. : Because when I was an 21 officer, I used to get it the day of. 22 MR. : All right. And you've 23 worked in the SHU before? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. So, when you EFTA00110763 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 worked in the SHU, it would come in that 2 morning? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Around what time would it 5 arrive? 6 MR. : About 2:00 in the morning. I 7 know that's early. 8 MR. : Oh, super early. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, it would come in at 11 morning watch. 12 MR. : Yeah. Morning watch. 13 MR. : Okay. And are there 14 people in Internal working at that time, around 15 2:00 a.m.? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And is that the same 18 people you just listed? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, those morning watch 21 individuals are the ones that would probably 22 have provided the court list? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : And do you know, is that 25 document maintained anywhere? The court list EFTA00110764 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 document? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Is that, like, uploaded 4 in any kind of system? 5 MR. : Not that I know of. 6 MR. : No? So, do you know who 7 you said R&D creates it? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : But they don't create it 10 in a system. They just -. 11 MR. : I don't know. I mean, that's 12 not my department. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : Is there, like, an 16 officer-in-charge of R&D? 17 MR. : Yeah. So, you have a CMC. 18 MR. : And -- 19 MR. : Corrections. 20 MR. : -- do you know who, in 21 August, would have been that person? 22 MR. : In August, no. Because I 23 know the CMC was out for a while. And they got 24 a - they also had a supervisor. 25 MR. : And do you know who that EFTA00110765 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 would be? 2 MR. : No. But they had a 3 supervisor. I know that's their position, but 4 I don't know who it is. 5 MR. : And that would be, like, 6 a lieutenant? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Who would -? 9 MR. : Lieutenant is custody. R&D 10 is non-custody. 11 MR. : Explain to me what R&D 12 is, and as far as -. 13 MR. : That's Receiving and 14 Discharge. 15 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 16 MR. : So, they deal with the inmate 17 movement, the inmate courts, the transfers, the 18 self-surrenders. 19 MR. : And you're saying that 20 they're not called lieutenants or anything. 21 What are their titles? 22 MR. : Correctional systems officer. 23 MR. : Correctional systems 24 officers. And, like, a supervisor, would they 25 still be, like -? EFTA00110766 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Supervisor correctional 2 systems officer. 3 MR. : And would that be, like, 4 a nine or an 11 type of -- 5 MR. : Something like that. 6 MR. : -- position? All right. 7 But they're just outside of, you said custody, 8 underneath -. What is the system that they're 9 underneath? 10 MR. : It's the non-custody and 11 custody. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And they have correctional 14 officer, a correctional worker, as opposed to 15 custody is a correctional officer. 16 MR. : Okay. And who would be 17 Does the captain also have oversight over 18 them? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Who has oversight over 21 them? Non-custody. 22 MR. : The CMC. They have a 23 supervisor. 24 MR. : What does the CMC mean? 25 MR. : Correctional Management EFTA00110767 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Coordinator. 2 MR. : Okay. And that is 3 outside of the captain's purview? 4 MR. Yup. 5 MR. : And you don't remember 6 who that was, at that time? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. And you said you 9 did not have any conversations at all. So, you 10 didn't have any conversations with about 11 12 MR. : No. Not that I remember. 13 No. 14 MR. : What about with 15 MR. Hmm. No. 16 MR. : No? But he would have 17 been - he relieved 18 MR. : I can't recall. 19 MR. : No? 20 MR. : Hmm-mm. 21 MR. : And was , do you 22 remember if you had any kind of interaction 23 with her at all on August 9th? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? So, obviously, you EFTA00110768 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 can't remember if you had any conversations 2 about 3 MR. : No. I don't remember 4 discussing 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : So, did you ever receive 8 any call around 1:50, or at any time, saying 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : -- that was going 11 WAB? No? So, at this point in time, obviously, 12 you're saying you didn't know anything at that 13 point in time. Now, after the fact, what do 14 you know about being removed from the 15 MMC? 16 MR. : I just know he went to court, 17 and never came back. And that was it. 18 MR. : Do you know any 19 information about who was informed that he 20 wasn't coming back? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So, even after the fact, 23 you don't know? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Do you know anything -. EFTA00110769 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 I mean, was it at all discussed about, like, 2 hey, somebody dropped the ball there? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : No? There wasn't even a 5 conversation? 6 MR. : I mean, that's the thing. I 7 don't recall him going - I didn't know he was 8 me personally - didn't know he was going WAB. 9 And I don't think a lot of other people did, 10 either. 11 MR. : Did anyone ever ask you 12 about that -- 13 MR. : About 14 MR. : -- yeah. 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Even after? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So, like, on August 10th, 19 August 11th, August 12th, did anyone come up to 20 you and say, hey, did you know wasn't 21 coming back? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : And have you ever been 24 interviewed for this matter before? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110770 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No? Did you have 2 conversations with people like , or 3 , or anyone, regarding this matter, 4 after Epstein was found? 5 MR. : What matter? 6 MR. : Epstein being found, and 7 not having a cellmate? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : No? You never talked to 10 anybody in the institution about that? 11 MR. : About him not having a 12 cellmate, or are you talking about him being 13 found? 14 MR. : No. About him not having 15 a cellmate. 16 MR. : I mean, not in a -. I mean, 17 we sent a, hey, what happened, or, like, what 18 happened to his cellmate? Oh, he got released. 19 Okay. It was - he said it like that, but 20 nothing -. No. Not like that. 21 MR. : Was it any conversation 22 of, like, hey, why didn't they put a new 23 cellmate with him? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? So, if, at around EFTA00110771 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1:50 -. 2 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 3 That's the time. That's why I'm looking at 4 you, saying 1:50. Yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah. I mean, this is 6 where -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : I'm getting the 1:50, 9 is because -- 10 MR. : Because these guys -- 11 MR. : -- it says 12 MR. : -- they go to court -. 13 MR. knows that, 14 at least by 1:50, he's going WAB. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Should have he 17 communicated with either or about that? 18 MR. : I don't know. I don't know 19 how he communicated with. 20 MR. : No. I'm not asking who 21 he did. I'm asking you, should have he? 22 MR. : I mean, I know when I was 23 OIC, and they give us call it, okay. So, if he 24 didn't say nothing to the lieutenant, I could 25 see why. I mean, you're telling me, I'm the EFTA00110772 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 OIC. And okay, I got the notification. 2 MR. : So -. 3 MR. : So, if he didn't pass nothing 4 on, it's -. 5 MR. : Is it abnormal that he 6 didn't pass it on, though? Should have he 7 passed it to you? Because -. 8 MR. : It's not. It's not -. I 9 mean -. 10 MR. : Could have he placed 11 another inmate with someone like Epstein? 12 MR. : I'm not sure because then, 13 again, it says possibly. WABs get cancelled. 14 They get cancelled. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : That's why the 1:50, we don't 17 know until after, like, hey, who is this guy 18 coming back? R&D is open at 8:00, 9:00. 19 MR. : So, about what time would 20 they normally make that notification that, okay 21 -? 22 MR. : After 4:00. 23 MR. : After 4:00? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : And is it some - when you EFTA00110773 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 say after 4:00 - is it usually between 4:00 and 2 5:00? 3 MR. : After 4:00. Any time after 4 4:00. 5 MR. : So, anywhere from 4:00 to 6 5:00, 4:00 to 6:00, 4:00 to 8:00. What -? 7 MR. : After the count. 8 MR. : So, after the 4:00 III. 9 count. 10 MR. : After the 4:00 III. count. 11 MR. : And why is it after the 12 count? 13 MR. : Because that's when the guys 14 come back, after the count. We do the 4:00 15 count. And then, you get an (Indiscernible 16 *00:56:31) base count change is like this. You 17 get 20 guys came back from court, this WAB got 18 cancelled. 19 MR. : So, as far as the 4:00 20 count, or is it at that point, do people start 21 saying, where are these guys, and start making 22 calls, are they coming back or not? 23 MR. : At 4:00? No. 24 MR. : No? So, when is the next 25 time that they would be listed on that count? EFTA00110774 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : The 9:00 count. 2 MR. : The 10:00 count? 3 MR. : Oh, the 10:00 count. Yeah. 4 MR. : Do you want to ask some 5 more questions on that line? I'm just trying to 6 -. Because I thought it was at - I felt people 7 have told at 4:00, that's when they start 8 making calls to say, is this guy coming back or 9 not. That's not your understanding? 10 MR. : Why would you make a call at 11 4:00? 12 MR. : Because you've got to 13 know if they're coming back to the unit or not 14 coming back. 15 MR. : Well, the count, 3:45 is 16 over. So, you're in the unit or not. So, at 17 4:00, we do the count. After the count, that's 18 when the guys come in from court. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : That's when we get the guys 21 coming back to SHU and going back to their 22 units. 23 MR. : And would you be - would 24 anybody be notified, prior to 4:00, that people 25 were, or were not, coming back? EFTA00110775 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 MR. : Not to my understanding. No. 2 MR. : All right. So, to your 3 understanding, it's not until 4:00 or later, 4 that this, you know, people would know 5 was not coming back? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : All right. So, if 8 doesn't come back after 4:00 III., who, on that 9 daily assignment roster, would be responsible 10 for making notifications, or determining that 11 Epstein needed a cellmate? 12 MR. : I mean, the notification is 13 here. We already have the notification. 14 MR. : Yeah. I know you're 15 pointing to the email that says that he 16 requires to have a cellmate. What I'm asking 17 is, okay, now 4:00 on, at some point after 18 4:00, you're saying - it's known that 19 is now not coming back. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Not - possibly not coming 22 back, but he's not coming back. Who would be 23 responsible for placing - for making 24 notifications that, hey, is out, Epstein 25 does not have a cellmate, we need to start EFTA00110776 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 making some notifications? 2 MR. : I mean, I don't know. 3 There's no notifications. That's if he doesn't 4 have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate. 5 MR. : Yeah. So, what I'm 6 saying is -. 7 MR. : But the lieutenant is not 8 saying, hey, by the way, you know? If they 9 catch it, they'll say it, but if they don't -. 10 MR. : And I'm not saying it's - 11 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- a lieutenant's 14 responsibility. What I'm asking is, whose 15 responsibility is it? 16 MR. : To say, hey, this guy, get 17 him a cellmate, or make a notification? 18 MR. : Yes. Like, who would be 19 the first one to know that is no longer 20 there? Would it be the SHU? 21 MR. : I'd say R&D. 22 MR. : So, R&D would be there. 23 What is R&D's responsibility, at that point? 24 MR. : Oh, hey, we've got all the 25 inmates back. It's such and such. And that's EFTA00110777 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 it. You ain't get him? Then they're not coming 2 back. They're gone. 3 MR. : But would R&D be 4 responsible for saying, hey, SHU, isn't 5 coming back, or would they say, hey, ops 6 lieutenant, isn't coming back. Who would 7 R&D notify? 8 MR. : I'm not sure. In the past, I 9 would say they calling SHU directly. 10 MR. : SHU directly? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : All right. So, in the 13 SHU, after 4:00, who was working? 14 MR. -: , and 15 MR. -: , and 16 Are they the only three there? 17 MR. : That's the only three listed. 18 MR. : Okay. So, one of those 19 three were likely notified? 20 MR. : I'm not sure. 21 MR. : Okay. And if they 22 weren't notified, at what point would they know 23 isn't coming back? 24 MR. : I'll say about 8:00. 25 MR. : And how would they be EFTA00110778 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 notified? 2 MR. : Because usually, all the 3 inmates are by then, you know, talking to the 4 lieutenant, hey, is anyone else down there? 5 That's like a follow up call. 6 MR. : Is there some point when 7 they should be saying, hey, this guy left at 8 8:00 this morning, he's still not back? 9 MR. : No. You said, is it at some 10 point? Yeah. 11 MR. : So, and at what point is 12 that? Is it during a count? Or is it just - is 13 there, like, you know, duties that they're 14 doing prior to the count, where they've got to 15 make sure people are there? How does that work? 16 MR. : I mean -. 17 MR. : You've worked in the SHU, 18 so from your recollection, from when you worked 19 in the SHU, how would that work? Especially 20 being that MCC is a jail, not a prison, where 21 people could, at any time, be released or 22 moved. How does that work in the SHU? 23 MR. : I used to have, like, that, 24 think, set by 8:00. 25 MR. : I'm sorry. What did you EFTA00110779 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 say about 8:00? 2 MR. : By 8:00, is when I say, hey, 3 is anyone else coming up? And this is the base 4 count. Like, I want to get everything straight 5 in the computer. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : I'll say by 8:00. 8 MR. : And on that date, when 9 those three people were working, who would 10 typically be responsible for doing something 11 like that? Is it, like, SHU one, SHU two, two 12 three, or is it just anybody, any one of them, 13 or how does that work? 14 MR. : To do what? 15 MR. : To say, like, hey, we've 16 got to make sure our base count is correct. 17 MR. : I mean, it could be any one 18 of them. 19 MR. : Any one of them? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : But it's not like 22 someone's job? It's just someone should take 23 that role. 24 MR. : I mean, but they've got to 25 have the base count right, for the 10:00 count. EFTA00110780 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MR. : So, one of those people 2 should have got the base count right, but it's 3 not one specific person's duty? Or is it 4 something that they're supposed to collaborate 5 on all together? 6 MR. : I mean, it depends. It 7 depends. If you're working, hey, such and such 8 (Indiscernible *01:02:01). If you're number 9 two, you know, you go to the board, you could 10 change it yourself. You know, the OIC. All 11 right, you know, making sure everything is in 12 order. 13 MR. : Was there an OIC on that 14 night? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Who? 17 MR. 18 MR. : So, was the OIC? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : So, technically, he's 21 probably the one who should have been 22 responsible to catch the fact that their base 23 count changed, and he wasn't coming back? 24 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 25 Because he was non-custody. I'm not sure. EFTA00110781 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Because, you see, he's non- 3 custody. Mine was non-custody. He's just up 4 there for overtime. So, I'm not sure. 5 MR. : Okay. Now, as far the 6 lieutenants' job. So, at that point in time, 7 it was that was the ops, and hd - 8 was the activities. What is their role in 9 ensuring that is, one, back; and two, 10 Epstein is placed with a new cellmate? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Do they have any role? Or 13 is it all on the SHU? 14 MR. : I mean, it's - they don't 15 have a role. You know, it's -. 16 MR. : What about when they're 17 conducting their rounds, as part of their 18 responsibility to say, to check that kind of 19 stuff, or is it just to see what inmates are 20 there, and that the inmates that are there, are 21 okay? 22 MR. : Pretty much. You've got to 23 do a round. 24 MR. : Does that round entail 25 verifying that Epstein has a cellmate and EFTA00110782 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 isn't there? 2 MR. : I'm not sure of that. We 3 just know we do our rounds. 4 MR. : So, that goes back to, 5 what does a round entail? Does that mean that 6 you need to verify that the people that are on 7 the books are there, and other people are 8 removed? 9 MR. : Yes, with staff and 10 accountability. For the most part. You know? 11 Inmates banging, hey, all right, I'll be up, 12 doing my round. I'll deal with this when I get 13 up there. 14 MR. : But when you say for 15 accountability, what does that entail? 16 MR. : Presence of inmates, 17 depending on who goes up there. They know, 18 okay, this is on - they try certain things, 19 they won't try certain things. 20 MR. : Are you comparing a list 21 of the inmates that you know to be in the SHU, 22 with who's actually in the SHU? 23 MR. : No. Not for a round. No. 24 MR. : No? All right. So, as 25 far as a round conducted by a lieutenant, would EFTA00110783 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 they know - would they be able to figure out 2 that was removed? 3 MR. : Depending on what time the 4 round was. 5 MR. : And can you give me more 6 explanation? What time would that change? 7 MR. : If I do an early round, and 8 Epstein's in a cell by his self, okay, I still 9 have time, still doing court movements, and it 10 wouldn't raise no suspicion or no alarm. 11 MR. : Okay. So, about what 12 time would there be a suspicion or alarm that 13 be raised? 14 MR. : I told you. At about 8:00. 15 MR. : 8:00? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Because hasn't been 18 back? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. Were you ever 21 provided any instructions on what actions 22 should be taken if was removed as 23 Epstein's cellmate? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : What actions should have EFTA00110784 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 been taken once was removed? 2 MR. Hmm. Honestly, I mean, like 3 I said, we bunk all the inmates together. So, 4 if he was removed, look for him a new bunkie. 5 MR. : And is that something - 6 should have they notified - when they say look 7 for a new bunkie, I'm assuming you're talking 8 about the people in the SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah. A new cellmate. Yeah. 10 MR. : So, I think you said 11 , and 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Could have they placed 14 him with a new cellmate, or would have they had 15 you make notification to the ops and/or 16 activities' lieutenant? 17 MR. : You know, they don't need to 18 make notification. 19 MR. : What about when someone 20 is high-profile as an inmate as Epstein? 21 MR. : No, he didn't make 22 notification. 23 MR. : So, you don't think that 24 they would have. Do you know if Epstein's 25 cellmates were vetted by the captain and above? EFTA00110785 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. : I think I heard something 2 like that. I think so. 3 MR. : Now, does that play into 4 that answer? About if they could have just 5 placed anyone with him? 6 MR. : I'm not sure. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : But I think someone vetted 9 like that, pre-approved or something like that. 10 I think - I'm not sure - but I think I did hear 11 something like that. 12 MR. : Okay. But to your 13 knowledge, they could have placed anyone with 14 him? Not anyone, but, like, they could have 15 placed a new inmate with him. 16 MR. : Yeah, they could have. 17 MR. : Okay. Should have they? 18 MR. : I'm not sure. Like you said, 19 the whole vetted thing, yeah. I'm not sure. 20 MR. : So, if they knew that 21 was vetted, and was placed with him, at 22 that point, should have they done anything 23 else? Such as called the lieutenant to say, 24 hey, he's not back, we need to get him a new 25 cellmate. Can I place someone with him, or EFTA00110786 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 should have they just taken action on their 2 own? 3 MR. : I don't know. 4 MR. : If you were - I know you 5 were day watch - but if you were evening watch, 6 would of you expected them to notify you? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So, in this case, should 9 have they notified or should have they 10 notified , or either of them? 11 MR. : I'm not sure. 12 MR. : Should have -. 13 MR. : That was non-custody. 14 MR. : Should have the person 15 notified them by telephone, or when one of 16 those lieutenants did their rounds? 17 MR. : You said should they have? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : If they would have? Yeah, 20 either/or. Both. Call, email, whatever. 21 MR. : Now, someone like -. So, 22 was the activities' lieutenant that 23 night, correct? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Since she was not a EFTA00110787 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 lieutenant, she was an SOS, do you feel that 2 she had the knowledge and capabilities to be 3 able to do that job, at that time? 4 MR. : What job are you talking 5 about? 6 MR. : Activities' lieutenant. 7 MR. : Yeah. I think she was 8 training, right? 9 MR. : Well, I -. 10 MR. : I think she was training. 11 It's that temporary post, right? 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : Yeah, but that still wouldn't 14 be on her, though. 15 MR. : If she's the one who did 16 a round in the SHU for her shift. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Is that something that 19 she should have checked on? Hey, where's 20 There's nobody in -. Because not only - I 21 mean, everyone knows what cellmate Epstein is 22 in. So, even if Epstein's not in there, and 23 he's still down at attorney conference, nobody 24 is in there. So, shouldn't that have been 25 something that you'd say, hey, where is this EFTA00110788 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 guy? Is he coming back? Should that be 2 something that was -? 3 MR. : That kind of depends on the 4 time. 5 MR. : And when you're saying 6 that you just mean because he possibly could be 7 coming back? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : But if no one is there, 10 and she knows he's out at court, shouldn't she 11 at least have followed up on, hey, anybody 12 check on him? Is he coming back? 13 MR. : Well, that's R&D. R&D 14 notifies us if they're coming back or not. 15 MR. : All right. So, when 16 doing rounds, that's not something being that, 17 hey, we've got to make sure that Epstein has a 18 cellmate. Not something that should be, like, 19 a, hey, nobody's in Epstein's cell. What's 20 going on there? 21 MR. : I mean, that's what I'm 22 saying. We get this notice, not just with 23 Epstein, with every inmate -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- that comes on suicide EFTA00110789 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch. 2 MR. : So, did you ever see - 3 when you were visiting the cell - did you ever 4 see this sign up in the SHU? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : And I'm showing you a 7 colored note, saying, "Mandatory rounds must be 8 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, number 9 76318-054, as per GOD." 10 MR. : Nah. 11 MR. : You never noticed that? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : All right. So, that's 14 nothing you ever saw in any of your times 15 visiting there? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : All right. If that was 18 up - sorry. 19 MR. : Sorry. 20 MR. : Please. 21 MR. : No, no. If you have. 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : I have a -- 24 MR. : No, no, no. 25 MR. : I have a funny joke, EFTA00110790 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that's why. 2 MR. : I was just going to say, 3 if that is up for people to see, doing rounds 4 in the SHU, does that change any of those 5 answers of, hey, where is Epstein's cellmate? 6 MR. : I mean, this is - if it's 7 rounds - that's something different than me 8 saying single bunk. So, if they're saying 9 we're doing rounds on them, that wouldn't make 10 them to think about, why is this guy - where is 11 his bunkie? 12 MR. : You don't think so? So, 13 if you're actually looking into his cell and 14 saying, you know he needs a bunkie, I'm looking 15 in his cell, and there is no one else with him, 16 you don't think that those are correlated? 17 MR. : Yeah, but not because of 18 this. No. That's just saying rounds, hey, 19 make sure you do your rounds. 20 MR. : It says specifically 21 MR. : Than when it's not -- 22 MR. rounds on -? 23 MR. : -- yea, but normal, it's not 24 going to think just because - it's not going to 25 mix this with this. EFTA00110791 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 MR. : So, even though they're 2 looking in on Epstein, seeing that he's not - 3 he's by himself, that won't alert them to the 4 fact -? 5 MR. : No. Not that sign. No. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : You don't think so? 9 MR. : It says, "Mandatory rounds." 10 MR. : Do you know of any other 11 signs that were in the SHU, saying that he was 12 required to have a cellmate? 13 MR. Hmm. I can't recall. 14 MR. : What about the hot list? 15 Tell me about, what is a hot list? 16 MR. : The hot list is inmates who 17 have suicidal behavior or attempts in the past. 18 MR. : And people on the hot 19 list, are they required to have a cellmate? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Do you remember seeing 22 the hot list that was in the SHU? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Is that as part, as a 25 lieutenant, would they check out the hot list EFTA00110792 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 when they would go down there? 2 MR. : No. We would just - no - we 3 would just check to see if it's updated. 4 MR. : Okay. So, Epstein's 5 listed on the hot list. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : What does that, then, 8 tell these people working in the SHU? 9 MR. : He needs a cellmate. 10 MR. : And do all of them know, 11 if Epstein's on the hot list, those people need 12 cellmates? 13 MR. : I'm not sure if all of them 14 knew. 15 MR. : But are they supposed to? 16 MR. : I don't know. Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. So, you feel 18 like the hot list is even more important than 19 the sign I just showed you, for cellmate 20 purposes? 21 MR. : This sign? Where the sign 22 come from? 23 MR. : If this sign was in the 24 SHU -- 25 MR. : You said "if"? EFTA00110793 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : -- well, I'm not saying - 2 I can't say if - yeah - I can't tell you 3 MR. : Oh. 4 MR. : -- exactly what is and 5 what isn't. I'm just saying, assuming that 6 this was in the SHU. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : What was your question? 9 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 10 This, I don't think this was up there. 11 MR. : You don't think that was 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Because -. 15 MR. : I mean, not in no tier or 16 nothing like that. 17 MR. : Okay. But around, like, 18 the officers -? 19 MR. : The hot list is up there, 20 though. 21 MR. : But what about, like, up 22 on, like, the desk area? Would you be around 23 the officer's desk area? 24 MR. Hmm. I mean, if I had to. 25 MR. : But you didn't notice EFTA00110794 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 that -- 2 MR. : But not normally. 3 MR. : -- in the desk area? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. Where would 6 the hot list be located? 7 MR. : So, behind the desks, like, a 8 wall we have, that we keep it up there. 9 MR. : All right. And they're 10 supposed to be checking that, and making sure 11 those people are, one) checked on, and two) 12 have cellmates? Is that the purpose? 13 MR. : The hot list is just any - 14 it's pretty much any inmate that comes from the 15 housing unit. They come from the housing unit. 16 This guy psych alert, hey, make sure this guy 17 gets a bunkie. That's the initial check. 18 That's what the hot list is for. 19 MR. : And are they supposed to 20 check that list every day, to make those same - 21 22 MR. : I mean, you don't - no, you 23 get up there, it's, hey, on the suicide watch, 24 is he on the hot list? So, it's not common to 25 check it every day. No. EFTA00110795 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. : All right. So, it's not 2 common to check it every day? 3 MR. : Every day, no. Unless it's 4 updated. 5 MR. : Only when it's updated, 6 you check it. 7 MR. : Yeah, if the guy is still on 8 it. 9 MR. : But wouldn't - again, the 10 fact that the MCC is a jail, not a prison 11 wouldn't it be pretty regular that people are 12 being moved in and out? 13 MR. : Not on the hot list. 14 MR. : No, but the people that 15 they're bunked with. If they're required to 16 have a cellmate -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- wouldn't it be prettl. 19 regular that they would have to - their 20 celimates might be leaving? Because if it's a 21 jail, not a prison. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So, that's what I'm 24 saying. So, how are they always ensuring that 25 those people that are required to have EFTA00110796 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 cellmates have cellmates? 2 MR. : That's when you say, hey, I 3 got a single cell up there. 4 MR. : And at what point is that 5 reviewed? 6 MR. : The single cells? 7 MR. : Yeah. Is that supposed 8 to be a daily occurrence? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And is that - what time 11 is that? The 8:00 time that you're talking 12 about? 13 MR. : No. Usually, that's in the 14 morning. So, like, if I come in, hey, you 15 know, I'm going to - who's in the single cell? 16 You know? 17 MR. : Well, what about -. 18 MR. : At night, it's just not -. 19 At night, it's -. 20 MR. : Even when people are left 21 during the day, and then come back from court? 22 Some people come back, some people don't. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Wouldn't that be another 25 time that they do it, or they don't do it at EFTA00110797 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 that time? 2 MR. : I mean, I mean, like I said, 3 after that cut off time, that's when you start 4 saying, okay, we've got a single cell, of such 5 and such. Then again, remember, MCC get 6 inmates throughout the night. 7 MR. : They do? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Placed in the SHU? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 12 work that night. Do you know of any people 13 that were placed in the SHU that night, on 14 August 9th? 15 MR. : No. Not according to this, 16 no. 17 MR. : And did you conduct any 18 counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th? 19 MR. : I can't recall. 20 MR. : And what is the purpose: 21 Why do COs conduct counts and rounds in the 22 SHU? 23 MR. : To make sure they're alive. 24 MR. : Is it also to make sure 25 everyone is there? EFTA00110798 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : And are cells and counts 3 - are counts and rounds documented? 4 MR. : Yup. 5 MR. : And how 6 MR. : Probably. 7 MR. : -- how are they 8 documented? 9 MR. : 30-minute log in in TruScope. 10 MR. : So, 30-minute log for 11 rounds? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And what is the TruScope? 14 MR. : Rounds. 15 MR. : That's rounds, as well? 16 MR. : You put rounds in there, too, 17 but all the counts. 18 MR. : So, counts 19 MR. : Mainly counts, yeah. 20 MR. so, are counts also 21 are there, like, little slips that are filled 22 out? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Who fills them out? 25 MR. : All the officers. EFTA00110799 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : And what do they do with 2 them? 3 MR. : Give it to Internal. 4 MR. : And does Internal come to 5 the SHU, or does the SHU go to Internal? 6 MR. : It depends. 7 Not before this incident. 8 MR. -: MR. : Or it does 9 it both ways? 10 MR. : Both ways. Just get it to 11 control. 12 MR. : Okay. Do all COs who 13 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct 14 and report counts and rounds? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Should they know how to 17 conduct counts and rounds? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And how should they know? 20 MR. : Training. 21 MR. : And do you think everyone 22 there got enough training to know how to do a 23 count and a round? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Did you ever hear of EFTA00110800 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 people, like, filling out count slips, or round 2 sheets? Either before, or at the very start of 3 their shift, for their entire shift, or at the 4 end of the shift for their entire shift? 5 MR. : Not before this incident. 6 MR. : Did you hear about that 7 after this incident? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : What did you hear about 10 that? 11 MR. : That they didn't count. 12 mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't 13 counted. Wasn't making rounds. 14 MR. : And who was it that you 15 heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds? 16 MR. -: and 17 MR. : Anybody else in there? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Did you hear anything 20 about counts and rounds not being conducted 21 prior to midnight on August 10th? So, any time 22 on August 9th, did you hear about any of those 23 counts and rounds not being conducted? 24 MR. : On the morning watch then? 25 MR. : Any time on August 9th. EFTA00110801 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 So, this date. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Even after the fact, you 4 never heard about, like, the 10:00 III. count, 5 or the 4:00 count, the counts not being 6 conducted? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : You haven't heard that? 9 MR. : No. I don't know. Not that 10 I know of. Some, what, counts on these days? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : No. You have the 4:00 count. 13 You have the 10:00 count. Yeah, the midnight 14 count. Yeah. 15 MR. : Right. So, what I'm 16 asking, did you -- 17 MR. : Have I heard that -- 18 MR. : -- did you hear -- 19 MR. : -- 4:00 and 10:00 -- 20 MR. : -- that (Indiscernible 21 *01:18:33) -- 22 MR. : -- wasn't done? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Now, do lieutenants sign EFTA00110802 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 the counts or the rounds? 2 MR. : The rounds. Not the counts. 3 MR. : So, what is the 4 lieutenants' responsibility for signing the 5 round sheets? 6 MR. : Making sure they're in 7 compliance with the policy. 8 MR. : All right. And do they 9 have to - is there any way for them to verify 10 if the rounds were actually done? 11 MR. Hmm. No. Unless you're 12 doing a - checking a video. 13 MR. : You just - is what you do 14 is just to make sure that the - it's actually 15 filled out? 16 MR. : Correctly. 17 MR. : Correctly filled out? All 18 right. I'm going to - I apologize for this, 19 it's gotten a little longer - so, I'm going to 20 show you. What is this that I'm showing you? 21 MR. : It's a round sheet. 22 MR. : All right. And what is 23 the round sheet from? 24 MR. : The 9th. 25 MR. : The 9th. Did you have EFTA00110803 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 anything - well, as the activities' lieutenant 2 - would of you had anything to do with signing 3 off on any of these? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Which ones would of you 6 signed off on? 7 MR. : Day watch. 8 MR. : Okay. And are you on 9 that? Did you sign any of that? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Where is your signature? 12 MR. : On the day shift. 13 MR. : So, that's your actual 14 signature? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Is that for the SHU? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Who else signed that? 19 MR. : The officer. 20 MR. : Which officer? 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You can't tell by looking 23 at that? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. And around EFTA00110804 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what time would of you signed that? Do you 2 know? 3 MR. : Some time on my shift. 4 MR. : All right. So, does that 5 indicate that you would have, then, conducted a 6 round in the SHU? 7 MR. : I'm not sure. 8 MR. : Would of you signed that 9 in the SHU? 10 MR. : Honestly, I'm not sure. 11 MR. : How else would of you 12 gotten it? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. 14 MR. : So, is the SHU sheet ever 15 sent outside of the SHU for the lieutenant to 16 sign? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't recall 18 on this day. 19 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 20 like, have you ever signed one of these round 21 sheets outside of the SHU? 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : Or is it typically that 24 the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the SHU? 25 Because aren't they maintained in the SHU? EFTA00110805 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 MR. : Typically, that's what would 2 happen. 3 MR. : So, typically, you would 4 have signed this in the SHU. Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And would of you signed 7 this after the last one was filled out? I'm 8 assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you 9 signed it, would they? 10 11 12 2:07. Wouldn't that typically mean that you 13 would have been there at least 2:00? 14 MR. : I'm not sure. 15 MR. : But by looking at this 16 document, does that indicate to you, that if 17 you signed it, you would have signed it? Do you 18 ever sign -. Are these continued to be filled 19 out after the - sorry - after the lieutenant 20 signs it? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, even for day watch 23 right here? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, you can sign it at MR. : I'm not sure. MR. : So, this one says 2:05, EFTA00110806 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 any point during this, and then, they continue 2 to fill it out? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. And that's 5 what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't 6 know. So, I'm asking. 7 MR. : I mean, it's eight hours. 8 MR. : So, at any point, from 9 8:00 a.m. until basically 2:07 III., you could 10 have signed that? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. And these are 13 genuine questions. They're not I trick you. 14 I'm just asking -- 15 MR. : No. I understand. But it 16 does seem like that, is what I'm saying. 17 MR. : And then, I'm not -- 18 MR. : That's what I'm saying, like 19 20 MR. : I promise you, I'm 21 just asking, like, this isn't, like, an "I 22 gotcha" moment. There's no -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : I gotcha moments in 25 this. This is just asking for your, like, your EFTA00110807 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 recollection on this. 2 MR. : Yeah, I understand that. But 3 that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I 4 don't know when I signed it. 5 MR. : All right. And that's 6 so, what I'm asking you, like, is this 7 something, typically, that you would have done? 8 And again, it's not an I gotcha. 9 MR. : Yeah. But again -- 10 MR. : It's just, it's a genuine 11 12 MR. -- I'm not sure. 13 MR. : -- but so, you don't know 14 if - But so, most of the time, I mean, these 15 are maintained in the SHU, and this is - again 16 - this is our learning experience, by talking 17 to people like you, lieutenants -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- that were there. 20 It's, again, not an "I gotcha." It's trying to 21 figure out, how does this process work? 22 MR. : But also, I'm not trying to 23 incriminate myself. 24 MR. : I got -. 25 MR. : Or nothing. That's what I'm EFTA00110808 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 saying. I'm not sure. 2 MR. : But what I'm asking, I 3 guess, is just - and I don't even know what 4 there would be to incriminate you with - but, 5 like, what I'm asking is, like, how does this 6 process work? If you give this person a round 7 sheet, are these round sheets signed in the 8 SHU? 9 MR. : Typically. 10 MR. : Typically. All right. 11 And are you aware of them ever not being signed 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. Not that I 14 know of, no. 15 MR. : All right. So, at least 16 more likely than not, you signed this document 17 in the SHU, at some point, between 8:00 and 18 2:00 III.? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, that means you 21 probably did a round in there? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. And if it was 24 between 8:00 and 2:00 III., both and 25 Epstein were not in their cell at that time, EFTA00110809 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 then, correct? 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : I mean, this isn't, like 4 - again - an I gotcha. I'm just trying to 5 figure out, like, where you fall in this whole 6 thing. 7 MR. : So, that's what I'm trying to 8 figure out. Where do I fall in this whole 9 thing? 10 MR. : Because this is your 11 idea. That's what we're We're talking to 12 you just specifically about, all right, 13 was gone, at some point, he goes WAB. We 14 don't know -. 15 MR. : So, you're trying to say 16 who's to blame for it, or -? 17 MR. : Well, it's also just trying 18 to figure out what happened. We've got to talk 19 to -. 20 MR. : He left. And that's what 21 happened. 22 MR. : Right. And you, when you 23 were there, there was no conversations that you 24 had with anyone? 25 MR. : No conspiracy. No. It's not EFTA00110810 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 2 MR. : No, no, no, and we're not 3 asking -- 4 MR. -- nothing like that. 5 MR. : -- for a conspiracy. 6 It's just, we need to know who, what 7 conversations happened, where, where did the 8 MR. : I didn't know nothing about 9 it until after I saw it in the news. 10 MR. : And this is also me 11 showing you this now is more letting you know, 12 like, okay, that looks like you probably were 13 there. Does that help spark recollection? 14 MR. : I had no conversation with 15 neither one of them that day. Not that I 16 recall. 17 MR. : None of them that day? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : All right. Can you tell, 20 does this look like an RCS to you? 21 MR. : I don't know who -- 22 MR. : Why don't you have a look 23 at this? 24 MR. -- whose signature that is. 25 MR. : All right. So, on day EFTA00110811 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 watch, there was 2 . As well as Does that look 3 like any of those people to you? 4 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. 5 MR. : Okay. All right. So, 6 you do not recall. And as we go, do you mind 7 just initialing or whatever? Okay. You got 8 those, too, if you don't mind initialing this, 9 and this, and this. Now, although it is 10 voluntary, I guess, we do have to just make 11 sure we know, it also has to be the answers are 12 truthful, you're under oath. So, that also 13 so, lack of candor can also be constituted by 14 not providing full information or, like, hiding 15 information. 16 MR. : No. If I remember, it'll - 17 and I don't hide nothing - but if I remember, 18 then I will say it. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : But when you come with these 21 22 MR. : So, it's just -- 23 MR. : -- saying it looks like, hey, 24 by the way -- 25 MR. : -- and again -- EFTA00110812 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. : -- yeah, and if I'm, like -. 2 MR. : -- our purpose, you would 3 have been interviewed a lot earlier, if there 4 was, like, you know -- 5 MR. : Yeah, but still -- 6 MR. : -- we're -. 7 MR. -- I know, I know being that 8 day, I know it was a big profile case. Hey, 9 let's get such and such, they fill this, and 10 then -- 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 12 MR. : -- and I'm, like, come on. 13 MR. : And we just need to know, 14 like, as, you know, we've got make sure that, 15 like, hey, what you do remember, you can tell 16 us. Again, it's voluntary, but, like -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- all right. So, these, 19 I'm going to give you these count slips from 20 August 9th up until midnight of August 10th. 21 And is it your understanding that ZA on the 22 count slip, that stands for the SHU? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : All right. Can you just 25 kind of look through those? I'm going to move EFTA00110813 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 this aside for you, so the papers don't get 2 kind of mixed up. Actually, I'm just going to 3 give them back to you, 4 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 5 *01:26:40). 6 MR. : (Indiscernible 7 *01:26:40). 8 MR. : So, I look for what? 9 MR. : Oh, that one. 10 MR. : What am I initialing for? To 11 do what? 12 MR. : So, when we initial these 13 things, it's just to say what we showed you. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : It's not to say you're 16 certifying anything, or that you received 17 anything. It's any document we place in you, 18 this is what we do for everybody. We ask them 19 to initial and date this -- 20 MR. : That I've seen this. 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. -: -- no, that today you've 24 seen this, not that you've seen it before 25 today. It's just that, today, while we're EFTA00110814 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 talking to you, this is in fact the document 2 that we were talking about. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : It's not certifying its 5 accuracy. It's not saying you saw it before 6 today. It's simply to say that's the document 7 we're discussing right now. 8 MR. : And I'm looking for this for 9 MR. : Thank you, sir. 10 MR. : -- or -? 11 MR. : So, look at the ZAs, 12 starting. So, you're - what is this one that I 13 gave you? Is that the 14 MR. : So, this is the 9th at 5:02. 15 MR. : So, 5:00 a.m. count. 16 MR. : a.m., right? 17 MR. : So, okay, so, I gave you 18 the 5:00 a.m. count on the 9th. Can you just 19 take a look at the numbers? You can look at 20 the - is that - what's this first page called? 21 Is that the El? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. So, look at 24 the El. And then, look at the count slip for 25 ZA. So, when you're looking at El, just make EFTA00110815 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 note of what is the number that says on the El, 2 and then, go back to probably the last page, 3 maybe the second to last page, for each, and 4 look at the ZA number, to make sure that it 5 matches with what the El shows. And I just 6 want you to do that for the one -. 7 MR. : You said the El and the what? 8 MR. : The El and the count slip 9 for ZA. 10 MR. : The count slips are in the 11 back. 12 MR. : should be either the last 13 or the second to last page. And I just -- 14 MR. : Where it's 5:00 in the 15 morning? 16 MR. : -- that's 5:00 in the 17 morning on the 9th. So, what do those numbers 18 show? 19 MR. : In ZA? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So, 77. 22 MR. : Does it say both of them, 23 77? 24 MR. : On the El, yeah. 25 MR. : All right. Cool. Now, EFTA00110816 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 you can just initial and date that, and move it 2 aside. Again, these aren't I gotcha moments. 3 These just help us explain some stuff. All 4 right. So, this El, well, can you tell me what 5 it says for the ZA on this one? And this is, 6 what, the 5:00 III. count? What is this? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. 4:00 III. 9 MR. : 4:00 III., I mean. 10 MR. : It's 4:00 count. But yeah. 11 So, that ZA is 75. 12 MR. : 75. And the last one was 13 77? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what does that say? 16 MR. : 75. 17 MR. : All right. 75. Cool. 18 Can you just initial that and put that on the 19 side? And you'll understand the question after 20 you look at these. And again, it's not an I 21 gotcha. It's to help us explain something. 22 All right. 23 MR. : What y'all trying to explain, 24 though? 25 MR. : The count changes, and EFTA00110817 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 I'm going to ask you how you can - if there's a 2 way for you to be able to figure out how this 3 count changed. All right. Can you look at the 4 El on here, and compare it to the count slip 5 back there? What is the -? 6 MR. : And it's the 10:00 count, 7 right? 8 MR. : 10:00 III. count on 9 August 9th. 10 MR. : Yeah. 73. 11 MR. : 73? On both? And is there 12 a count - does the count slip say something 13 weird on that one? 14 MR. : No, I'm just looking at the 15 seven. 16 MR. : Does it say, like, 73 17 plus one on there? 18 MR. : Oh, yeah. It does. 19 MR. : Have you ever seen a plus 20 one on any before, or could you understand a 21 reason why someone will put plus one? 22 MR. : Plus one. No. I don't know 23 about a plus one. 24 MR. : All right. Now, this is 25 the one that I really want you to look at. EFTA00110818 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 Look at this El. This is now August 10th at 2 midnight. Check out what it says for ZA on the 3 El. What number does that say? 4 MR. : 72. 5 MR. : All right. And check out 6 the count slip. 7 MR. : What does the count slip say? 8 MR. : It says 73. 9 MR. : So, 73, but the top one, 10 that was clear, it says 72. Right? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And I'll give you one 13 more, just so it's not a magic trick, look at 14 this page first, for the August 10th, and I 15 have the rest of them, too, if you want to see 16 them, but 3:00 a.m. on August 10th, and then, 17 the last page where it says the count slip. 18 What does it say on the El on the next one? 19 MR. : It says 72. 20 MR. : And on the El. And then, 21 what does the count slip say? 22 MR. : 72. 23 MR. : So, in looking at all 24 this, does that tell you - as a lieutenant and 25 someone who worked in the SHU - does that tell EFTA00110819 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 you something? 2 MR. : Yeah, but the thing is, this 3 one had up, though. 4 MR. : That's exactly -- 5 MR. : That way and clear the count. 6 MR. : -- that's exactly right. 7 So, we're trying to figure out where did this 8 count change down the 72? And does it indicate 9 to you that these counts were not actually 10 conducted? And this is not -- 11 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:33:00). 12 MR. : -- and this is not -- 13 MR. : It's the 9:00 count. 14 MR. : -- we have no reason to 15 believe you were involved in this. So, I want 16 to make sure you're -. We're actually just 17 looking for your help here. As someone who 18 worked in the SHU, and as someone that is 19 familiar with these kinds of documents, can you 20 help us put this puzzle together? How - so we 21 have reason to believe that they called in at 22 midnight 73 -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- and the control 25 lieutenant, who was working that night, figured EFTA00110820 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 out there's actually only 72 people in there. 2 They've been calling in 73, but there's only 72 3 people in the SHU. Is there any way, from 4 looking - and that's from this point forward, 5 they're now start -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- calling in 72 - is 8 there any way, from looking at these, you're 9 able to determine, with your knowledge and 10 experience, where that changed? I would say 11 that it changed from the 10:00 count. This was 12 printed at 9:33. So, it has 73. And then, at 13 9:33, attorney conference ain't open. So, 14 Epstein would have probably been up by then. 15 He would have went back to the SHU. 16 MR. : So, he would have been 17 listed on -. Epstein would have been back at 18 least by 8:00 III., right? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, that would have -- 21 MR. : So, he should have been on 22 this count. 23 MR. : -- he should have been on 24 this one. 25 MR. : So, he threw it, yeah. EFTA00110821 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : And can you see where on 2 the - let's talk about, I guess, what's the one 3 before? The 5:00 p.m.? The 4:00 p.m.? 4 MR. : Yeah, he would have been at 5 attorney conference. Yeah. 6 MR. : And it would have showed 7 him at attorney conference on one of these, 8 correct? On the El? 9 MR. : Yeah. At 3:00, at attorney 10 conference. Well, from SHU. 11 MR. : And then, does it show 12 that he's already in SHU in this one? Is there 13 any way an attorney conference at the 10:00 14 p.m. count? 15 MR. : No. But see, what I was 16 telling you before about the numbers, see how I 17 had 76? 18 MR. : Yup. 19 MR. : And this is at the 4:00 20 count. And then, it went down to 73? 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : So, you don't know until 23 after the count, about the whole cellmate 24 coming back. 25 MR. : Right. But then, the EFTA00110822 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 weird part about it is going from 73 to 72, 2 with no movement. 3 MR. : So, we don't know, okay, 4 so, they're taking off, you know, if they're 5 going from - what does it say? 76? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Down to 73. That's three 8 people, and one person vanishes. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : When it gets to 72. Are 11 you able to tell where that person vanished 12 from, or is it impossible because, possibly, 13 all of these counts were not conducted, and 14 that's - I know you weren't here for any of 15 these counts, apparently, so it's, again, I'm 16 just asking for your guidance - is that 17 correct? You weren't even working when any of 18 these counts were conducted? 19 MR. : Yeah, well, if I was - you 20 said 4:00, right? 21 MR. : Well, you possibly worked 22 up until 4:00. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : But -. 25 MR. : So, I wasn't here. I wasn't EFTA00110823 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 there for the count. 2 MR. : Right. So again -- 3 MR. : 76. 4 MR. : I want to reassure you 5 this isn't an I gotcha moment. We're just 6 trying to help -- 7 MR. : No, no, but you know it feels 8 like it. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah -- 10 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:36:12). 11 MR. -- and I get that because 12 you've got special agents talking to you -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- it's just all about 15 trying to piece the puzzle together. So, we 16 need help with people like yourself, to be able 17 to say, what the hell happened? You know what 18 mean? 19 MR. : Yeah. Well, there's also 20 three here. From (Indiscernible *01:36:28). 21 mean, I think I'm -- 22 MR. : And we've had other -- 23 MR. -- and we hadn't keyed thew 24 out, that's what it is. 25 MR. : And you just -. EFTA00110824 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MR. : Oh, they hadn't keyed them 2 out. But then, they would have keyed them out. 3 R&D leaves at 10:00. They leave at 10:00. 4 Now, they could have left somebody on, and then 5 came out. Because like you said, it's no 6 movement. The only way you get it is you key 7 out. Like, key a guy unless somebody went to 8 the hospital or something. 9 MR. : Yeah, and if there is 10 nothing that happened, but no inmates were 11 moved after 10:00 III. If we know that, does 12 this indicate that they were just going off on 13 numbers and just falsifying their counts, or 14 are you able to tell, by looking at these at 15 all -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- if these counts are 18 legit or not? Are you able to kind of, like, 19 give us any insight into that? 20 MR. : I mean, the one with the plus 21 one is a question because I don't see why they 22 would -. Then again, you've got R&D with a 23 plus one, too. I don't know. I don't know 24 what's going on. They got R&D, (Indiscernible 25 *01:37:57) cell plus one. EFTA00110825 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 MR. : And by looking at that 2 person in R&D, are you able to tell who that 3 is? 4 MR. : Hmm-mm. 5 MR. : Not by looking at that 6 name? 7 MR. : Not by the name. I mean, 8 there's no out count. Don't have the out 9 count. 10 MR. : Don't have the out count? 11 Is that what you're saying? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And what time is that 14 for? 15 MR. : Well, I can't - you don't 16 have the out count. 17 MR. : No, what time are you 18 looking at? 19 MR. : This one is for the 10:00. 20 MR. : So, the 10:00 III. 21 doesn't even have an out count on it? 22 MR. : I mean, it don't add up 23 because - yeah, something is not right 24 because R&D is not on here. Unless they moved. 25 I mean, some time, they say a ghost count, but EFTA00110826 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : And what does a ghost 3 count mean? 4 MR. : -- so, like, the guys in 5 medical, they say, hey, I didn't have time to 6 key him in, but I'm verifying that he's down 133 7 here with me, and put him on my count 8 MR. : So, R&D. Does that say 9 95 plus one? 10 MR. : It could say 95 or it could 11 say 9-South. 12 MR. : Oh, 9-South plus one. 13 MR. : What is 9-South? 14 MR. : The SHU. 15 MR. : Now, this name, to me, 16 looks like.' (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:27). 17 Do you know any -- 18 MR. . Yeah. 19 MR. -: -- so, is that somebody's 20 name? 21 MR. : Yeah. That's an officer. 22 MR. : So, if someone was placed 23 in R&D, and someone was told to watch that 24 person there, would the person - at 10:00 III. 25 - would they be able to see like a dry cell, EFTA00110827 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 someone was still there at night? 2 MR. : Well, yeah, because you could 3 watch them down here, yeah. 4 MR. : And is that like a small 5 (Indiscernible *01:39:52)? Is it kind of like 6 you'd be able to - that person would know if 7 somebody was there or not? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Verify it. 10 MR. : Because someone could have 11 came in before the count, too. A U.S. Marshal 12 could have brung one in, and they said, hey, 13 watch this guy. He's going to 9-South. That's 14 why the plus one is throwing me off. 15 MR. : Have you ever seen plus 16 one on anything before? 17 MR. : No. I heard people calling 18 in with a plus one. But then, again, I say 19 that's like a ghost. A ghost count. 20 MR. : All right. Does this 21 MR. : But it mess up the base 22 count, though. 23 MR. : -- but seeing, especially 24 looking at the 72 -- 25 MR. : Yeah, I don't know how that EFTA00110828 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 happened. 2 MR. : -- and does this at all 3 tell you anything about any of these counts? 4 MR. : Hmm. 5 MR. : Like, we've had other 6 people, you know, in higher positions saying, 7 to me, it tells me that the counts weren't 8 done. Does that tell you that? 9 MR. : Yeah, but at 10:00? Pfft, I 10 mean, yeah. I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, 11 I couldn't tell you, man. 12 MR. : All right. So -. 13 MR. : I couldn't tell you. I don't 14 know. I don't understand that. 15 MR. : Okay. So, is it just a 16 baffling type of deal? Because it's baffling 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- to us, and then, we're 19 just hoping that people can kind of help us - 20 especially people that were there -. 21 MR. : I don't know. See, that's 22 why I don't understand that. I don't see how 23 they get 73 at the 10:00 count, and then they 24 lose one after the 10:00 count. 25 MR. : And that's the same EFTA00110829 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 thing. We're trying to figure that out. 2 MR. : Unless it wasn't keyed in the 3 system. 4 MR. : At what point - are you 5 able to tell - at what point it should have 6 been keyed in the system by that? 7 MR. : Well, if a guy came into R&D, 8 and they keyed him in SHU, and then put him 9 back in R&D. 10 MR. : So if he like went to SHU 11 12 MR. : He never went to SHU. 13 MR. : -- and then back? 14 MR. : They keyed him in the SHU. 15 They put him on this count. But he didn't make 16 it. So, the medical and stuff taking the guy 17 out. So, they say, hey, leave him down there, 18 and count him in R&D. I could see that 19 happening. 20 MR. : So if, like, he's in 21 medical, and they can't -- 22 MR. : Well, so like, medical comes 23 down there, and they checking him out, and he 24 don't make it up time in SHU, for the time, 25 seeing they could say, hey, well, I'm not EFTA00110830 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 putting him on our count, put him down there. 2 MR. : So, that would be like 3 the ghost count you're talking about? 4 MR. : No, that's a real count. 5 MR. : But if he's -. 6 MR. : That's just saying someone 7 put him in there but took him out. 8 MR. : All right. But if he's 9 not physically there, he's not actually allowed 10 to be on the count. Is he? 11 MR. : Exactly. No. That's why - 12 and this is, I don't - you see, this says RA? 13 That's R&D. 14 MR. : And does it say anybody's 15 in R&D over on this one? 16 MR. : Well, there's no out count, 17 and that's what I'm saying. There's no out 18 count with that one. 19 MR. : So, this RA -- 20 MR. : RA and R&D are separate. 21 MR. -- is one. 22 MR. : You need an out count for 23 this. You don't need an out count for that. 24 This is a unit. 25 MR. : But as far as this goes, EFTA00110831 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 we're looking at the midnight and the 10:00 2 III., right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : So, at midnight, there is 5 RA1, and the midnight, but at the 10:00 III 6 you know -- 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : -- two hours earlier, the 9 zero. Correct? 10 MR. : So I'm thinking this dude 11 went back to RA. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : That's how they lost someone. 14 MR. : But there is a count slip? 15 MR. : For RA or R&D? 16 MR. : What's he talking about? 17 MR. : So, RA 18 MR. : That's the thing. That it 19 was -- 20 MR. : -- isn't the count slip 21 for - (Indiscernible *01:43:21). 22 MR. : At the top. 23 MR. : That's R&D. 24 MR. : Well, they could have messed 25 up. They should have had the RA count slip for EFTA00110832 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 that one. 2 MR. : What's the difference between 3 RA and R&D? 4 MR. : RA is a real unit. So, when 5 the guys come back from court, they're in RA 6 status. R&D is when they keyed out. 7 MR. : To go to leave? 8 MR. : To go to court. But if they 9 come back, they came back in their unit. If 10 they don't come back, they release them from 11 R&D. But RA is technically a unit. 12 MR. : And it doesn't count as a - 13 it doesn't show up as R&D? 14 MR. : No. (Indiscernible 15 *01:43:57). 16 MR. : Where would that one slip 17 - that says R&D in there - where would that 18 show up here? 19 MR. : That would be right here. 20 But they don't have nobody in R&D. 21 MR. : So, there's - and so, is 22 that even weirder, the fact that, at the 10:00 23 III. count, there's a count slip for R&D, and 24 there's nobody for R&D on this? 25 MR. : That's why I think they put EFTA00110833 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 him, and they keyed him in SHU. They keyed him 2 in SHU, the inmate, and then put him down in 3 R&D. And then, changed it after the count. Or 4 they could have changed it right after this 5 count cleared, and set it up for the next 6 count, say the inmates, the inmate is in - this 7 is the 10:00? 8 MR. : Yeah, that one is the 9 10:00 M. 10 MR. : Yeah. And you have the 11 midnight one. 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : That's the midnight one 14 right there. 15 MR. : That's the 3:00. 16 MR. : Oh. 17 MR. : See, (Indiscernible 18 *01:44:44) right here. 19 MR. : Oh, I think I took it. 20 MR. : So, whoever was in SHU, they 21 put him, and they keyed him into RA and R&D. 22 MR. : This is the midnight. 23 MR. : Yeah. So that's what 24 happened. 25 MR. : Does R&D have like a dry cell EFTA00110834 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 or a dry room? 2 MR. : No, they got cells. You see, 3 they got RA right here. Yeah, that's what 4 happened. I think the guy came from SHU and 5 went to RA. That's why they lost one. 6 MR. : And can you think of why 7 a person would go from SHU to RA, at that late 8 at night? 9 MR. : Body scan. Probably pulled 10 something. And they kept him down there, put 11 him through the x-ray. 12 MR. : And is there any way - by 13 looking at these - you can see how Is there 14 - you said the 4:00 III.? 15 MR. : Yeah. That's the 4:00 III. 16 MR. : Is the person in R&D a- 17 4:00 III.? Are you able to tell by this? 18 MR. : Let me see. You know the 19 inmate that was down there or no? 20 MR. : I think Fernandez. Is 21 that right? 22 MR. : Was he a witsec dude? 23 MR. : Do you anything about 24 him? 25 MR. : No, I don't. EFTA00110835 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : Yeah, but that's what it 2 looks like. It looks like they took a guy to 3 SHU, and put him in R&D, but instead of keying 4 him in R&D, they keyed him RA. Yeah. That's 5 what it looks like. 6 MR. : So, at the 4:00 III., was 7 he anything to do with Fernandez on that, or 8 anything to do with somebody in -? 9 MR. : Well, the 4:00 III. is - no, 10 because no one is out from R&D. Let me see. 11 You've got one from 11-South. You've got no 12 one else from R&D. 13 MR. : But it's also said that 14 at the 10:00 III., right? Or I don't know which 15 one I'm looking at right there, but -. 16 MR. : No, you have one out here. 17 Yeah. But it looks like this inmate, from 18 10:00, they did the count at 10:00. Plus one. 19 Yeah. Plus one. Yeah. It seemed like they 20 got screwed up by something. Either moving 21 this guy to R&D, or whatever. I mean, the 22 count slip shouldn't have accepted anyway, 23 though. So, in the 9-South, plus one. Like, 24 don't know why that was written, but -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00110836 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : -- that's what it looked 2 like. The guy came from 9-South, he went in 3 the RA. He stayed there throughout the night. 4 Whoever the inmate was -- 5 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 6 MR. -- right there. 7 MR. : And we have reason to 8 believe that that is the case. That there is a 9 guy that was in, you know, he did stay there at 10 the night, and he had somebody on him, and 11 that's one of the reasons why we want to talk 12 to somebody that was in R&D to be able to 13 verify hey, was that guy really there? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : And by looking at that, 16 would that be that individual we just talked 17 about? 18 MR. : 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who did the count slip? 21 MR. : It's based on the count slip 22 (Indiscernible *01:48:18). 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Um all right. Does this 25 tell you anything else? Just before we move EFTA00110837 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 on. 2 MR. : I mean just -. I don't know. 3 Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand it. 4 That's the only thing I think they probably 5 took him down for that then. 6 MR. : Is there - which, from 7 looking at these, what basic like counts seem 8 bad to you? Does this 10:00 III. one seem like 9 a bad count to you? The way that it - what you 10 just looked at? When there's nothing on the El 11 and there's a count slip? 12 MR. : Uh. 13 MR. : If you were working that 14 night and you got a count like that, is that a 15 good count or bad count? 16 MR. : I would have said bad count. 17 MR. : And who - can you tell by 18 looking at this - who was the one who took this 19 count? 20 MR. : Uh 21 MR. -: ? And was there any 22 lieutenants involved with this? 23 MR. : I mean there could have been. 24 I'm not sure. 25 MR. : But by looking at it like EFTA00110838 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 I think like probably the midnight one there 2 was an actual ops lieutenant. Are you able to 3 tell that by looking at the - I think the ops 4 lieutenant is the one who caught it at 5 midnight? Are you able to tell that that -? 6 MR. : Oh this one here? 7 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to - 8 by looking at these, are you able to tell when 9 the lieutenant actually took the count? 10 MR. : It was - says she took the 11 count - took the count at midnight. 12 MR. : All right. And it shows 13 on it? I'm looking at it upside down 14 so I can't even see. 15 MR. : That's what it says yeah. 16 MR. : And on this one does it 17 show any lieutenant was involved? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : So it would just been 20 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : All right. 23 MR. : What about the 4:00 p.m.? 24 Does it show the lieutenant's name on the 4:00 25 p.m.? EFTA00110839 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Do you have any idea what 3 first name is? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : But this does seem like a 6 bad El. 7 MR. : El seems good. But um -. 8 MR. : Even though that no one 9 is listed on R&D? 10 MR. : Yeah that's what's confusing. 11 Like -. 12 MR. : Because then you say 13 there's a count slip for -. 14 MR. : This is at 9:33. 15 MR. : Wasn't that just one that 16 was printed? Oh. Because the numbers are 17 printed on that? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : I see what you're saying. 20 So after 9:33 possibly, something changed? 21 MR. : So that could be two things. 22 Either the Marshals was trying to get one in 23 before the count and they thought they had 24 enough time to process him upstairs. And then 25 when they call in the count, it's wrong. Like EFTA00110840 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 hold on that's not it. Yeah. 2 MR. : And that's what I mean by 3 wouldn't this be incorrect if they get a count 4 slip that's not listed on the El? 5 MR. : Yeah. They got a - which one 6 did they get? R&D? Yeah. Yep. That would be 7 a bad one. 8 MR. : All right. So for this 9 it seems like the 10:00 III. on August 9th was 10 a bad El and as far as the midnight, it seems 11 like it's the count slip that's a bad slip. Is 12 that correct? Whatever that's (Indiscernible 13 *01:51:13). I'm sorry, I'm in the -. So it 14 seems like the El is good at midnight, but the 15 count slip is bad at midnight for ZA. And 16 we're primarily asking you this stuff just 17 because we've got to write a report about what 18 we're finding. And we don't want to sound - we 19 don't want to be wrong. You know what I mean? 20 MR. : Yeah. Yeah so, the count 21 slip is wrong on this one. 22 MR. : So midnight count slip is 23 wrong, El seems right. The El at 10:00 III. 24 seems wrong, but the count slips seems right. 25 At least for R&D. I - we have reason to EFTA00110841 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 believe the count slip for ZA is also wrong for 2 3 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 4 MR. : -- 10:00 III. because -. 5 Well it depends, I guess, like you said, what 6 time the individual was moved to R&D. We've 7 been told that after the you know -. People 8 are all moved prior to this time. So if that 9 person was in R&D, it would have been prior to 10 the 10:00 III. count. Does that sound right to 11 you? 12 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 13 mean something could have happened. And you 14 know taken this guy downstairs. 15 MR. : And that's why we need to 16 talk to people. So by looking at this, are you 17 able to like figure out who we can talk to? To 18 see if something happened at 10:00 III. to 19 change this count and make this -? 20 MR. : Did you see the log already? 21 MR. : The lieutenant's log? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Do we have it? Yeah. I 24 have it. 25 MR. : Anything with log? EFTA00110842 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : Um so here's the - yeah. 2 So here's the log from the day you were on. 3 That's the August - it says August 10th, but 4 you know it's the August 9th log in there. Are 5 you able to tell by looking at that? And 6 here's the day after. So this is the - you've 7 got the August 9th -- 8 MR. : Okay. So moving him to the 9 dry cell. 10 MR. : -- and the August 10th. 11 MR. : Okay. So he put someone in 12 dry cell. 13 MR. : Dry cell is in the SHU isn't 14 it? 15 MR. : Yeah. If there's space. 16 Okay. So it looks like they didn't key the guy 17 up. He went to dry cell depending on what 18 time. 19 MR. : And are you able to tell 20 by these lieutenant's - I think you've got the 21 actual lieutenant log back there and I would 22 assume that that's when it should be documented 23 when people are moved. Correct? Are you able 24 to tell by looking at that when someone - you 25 know this person was moved to dry cell? EFTA00110843 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 MR. : Eh. 2 MR. : Oh. And also if you've 3 got that, are you able to tell by looking at 4 that when you worked until? No? 5 MR. : No. I wouldn't have done a 6 log that day from activities. 7 MR. : Yeah. I just didn't know 8 if it like mentioned when people - you know ops 9 or activities started or stopped. 10 MR. : No. It doesn't say when he 11 It just says Inmate Fernandez on dry cell. 12 It doesn't say when he went though. 13 MR. : There's no time associated 14 with the movement on there? 15 MR. : Should have there been? 16 MR. : I mean that's good to put it 17 there yeah. 18 MR. : So you said you wouldn't 19 have been associated with the lieutenant's log. 20 Who does the lieutenant's log? 21 MR. : Ops should take care of it. 22 MR. : Ops would so on your 23 shift it would have been 24 MR. : Yeah. But Fernandez is 25 already on dry cell on day watch it says. EFTA00110844 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : And that's where we get 2 confused. And that's why we have reason to 3 believe - because it seems like Fernandez was 4 put on day watch. 5 MR. : At 3:15. Yeah. 6 MR. : Does it say 3:15 he was 7 placed on there? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So that indicates to us 10 the 4:00 III. and that 10:00 III. count were 11 also both bad. He wasn't in the SHU. Does 12 that make sense to you? 13 MR. : I think he was -. Yeah. He 14 wasn't in the SHU, but he was he was still 15 keyed in SHU. 16 MR. : He was still keyed in the 17 SHU, but he wasn't there? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Right. So for the Els, 20 they would still show it. The only way the 21 people in control would know it is if SHU 22 actually did their count and said we only got 23 72 people in here not 73. Right? 24 MR. : I mean.... 25 MR. : Because people working in EFTA00110845 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 the SHU. They know hey, we only count bodies 2 that are present. 3 MR. : Oh hold on. This is the 9th. 4 Okay. So he went to -. Transfer to special 5 housing - dry cell at 4:00. 6 MR. : At 4:00 it says? 7 MR. : On the 9th. This is done on 8 the night before. Okay. Okay. 9 MR. : Can you -? And again I 10 promise you, not a "gotcha." You're being a 11 very extremely help. Can you just note on 12 there where you're seeing these different 13 things? If you can tell at what time he was 14 moved? 15 MR. : Well this just looks like the 16 log is the same. 17 MR. : We also have reason to 18 believe that people manipulated the log after 19 the fact. 20 MR. : Yeah. That's what I'm 21 saying. Some things are (Indiscernible 22 *01:57:13). 23 MR. : Do you know anything 24 about that? While I mentioned that? 25 MR. : No. I see SHU corrections; EFTA00110846 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 Fernandez; dry cell; RA; Saturday. Yeah. So I 2 mean that's pretty much whatever. I think that 3 the dial was still keyed in the SHU. 4 MR. : But as far as -- 5 MR. : In the building physically. 6 MR. : -- are you able to -? 7 Did you say that you saw something in there 8 that said either 3:15 or then you said 4:00 9 after that? Where are you seeing that? 10 MR. : No. It looks like -- 11 MR. : The 3:00. 12 MR. : -- they're saying the guy was 13 transferred back to SHU. Hold on. But this 14 also says that I was - I relieved as 15 day watch ops. 16 MR. : It says you relieved 17 as day watch ops? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Instead of 20 mean 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Is that wrong? 23 MR. : Mm. 24 MR. : Or was it that 25 potentially was late, and you relieved EFTA00110847 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 her? 2 MR. : I don't know. I'm not sure. 3 MR. : Would that be like a 4 possibility? Like can they do that? Even if 5 you're activities' lieutenant, if she wants to 6 leave and you're there and - who is the 7 ops lieutenant - wasn't? Can they say that you 8 relieved her even though you were activities' 9 lieutenant? 10 MR. : Mm. 11 MR. : Or is she not supposed to 12 write that? Or not supposed to be in there? 13 MR. : So who wrote that? 14 MR. Uh I don't know. It could be 15 - that's the thing. It could be a - it's like 16 a from the days prior. So if you don't catch 17 it, you just going to keep it the same. So 18 it's like - because I'm ops - I know I was ops. 19 That's what I'm saying. So I must have came in 20 on doing overtime that day. So normally I 21 would relieve her. So she probably left it 22 that way anyway thinking okay it's the same. 23 You're not changing that. You know? 24 *01:59:23 25 MR. : Oh you mean the day EFTA00110848 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 before you were ops is what you're saying? 2 MR. : Yeah. I think I was ops that 3 whole quarter though. I think so yeah. 4 MR. : So you were - that whole 5 quarter you were ops? Why were you -? 6 MR. : Overtime. 7 MR. : So overtime was a 8 different duty? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So you were the ops 11 lieutenant up until that day? You were 12 activities' lieutenant that day though? 13 MR. : Yeah. I think so. 14 MR. : So being that you were 15 ops, were you also potentially acting as like 16 the ops lieutenant? 17 MR. : Mm. 18 MR. : Like as in like since 19 that were your normal duties would have you 20 also took - taken that on? Like hey, I know 21 I'm activities, but I'll do the ops role? And 22 this is, again, just to try to help recollect - 23 24 MR. : I don't know. 25 MR. : -- what you were doing. EFTA00110849 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. : I think I was ops that 2 quarter though. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Yeah. I was ops. 5 MR. : Again we don't have your 6 records. There was no reason for us to be 7 grabbing your records or anything like that. 8 So everything we're asking you about is simply 9 to help us fill in the blanks. 10 MR. : So based on what you said, 11 you think it's - the log is from previous date. 12 It was just a spite edit that wasn't caught on 13 to. 14 MR. : Yeah. The dry cell stuff. I 15 don't know about all that. But that's what it 16 looks like. It looked like the guy was in 17 there and they didn't key him out even though 18 he was in R&D. 19 MR. : So let's say if I'm in SHU 20 and I wanted to move somebody. Or you wanted 21 to move somebody in the SHU. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : You're going to - do you key 24 it in, or do you call in to somebody and tell 25 them to key it in? Who keys it in? EFTA00110850 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 MR. : You can do it if you want to. 2 You can do it by yourself. 3 MR. : And let's say you move it. 4 Is someone supposed to be notified hey, listen 5 this person is moved? Or you - the SHU CO's 6 can move the inmates by themselves? 7 MR. : Someone from a different 8 unit? 9 MR. : Yeah. Like control or R&D? 10 MR. : No you tell - you can call 11 control. 12 MR. : Is it policy that control 13 must be notified? 14 MR. : I don't know if it's policy, 15 but I mean, they taking a count it's good to 16 know. Hey, this is what's going on - got to 17 move this guy down to dry cell. 18 MR. : And let's say - sorry. 19 ahead. 20 MR. : I was going to say I 21 guess - are you asking like who is responsible 22 for doing the keying? Yeah who -? 23 MR. : It could be CNA. 24 MR. : What's CNA? 25 MR. : Control number two. EFTA00110851 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Okay. But control would 2 be responsible for him. It's not ops or SHU 3 that would have been responsible for 4 (Indiscernible *02:01:28). It's control that 5 was -- 6 MR. : I mean SHU could -- 7 MR. : -- responsible for -? 8 MR. -- make that change though. 9 MR. : SHU could? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : It's not an ops 12 responsibility or activities'? 13 MR. : I mean if they say hey, 14 need this guy in dry cell. You know. Okay. 15 You notify them. You know hey, move him. 16 MR. : Okay. I guess though 17 what we're saying is like under the regular 18 practice - I understand that other - some 19 people have the ability to do it. But who 20 should have done it? 21 MR. : Should have moved keyed the 22 inmate from -- 23 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 24 MR. : SHU to R&D? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110852 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 MR. : Uh CNA, control. 2 MR. : Control should have? 3 MR. : Number two. Yeah. 4 MR. : And how should have they 5 been notified that they needed to make that 6 change? Who should have notified them that 7 that change needed to be made? 8 MR. Mm. I mean SHU could have 9 called ahead. This guy is keyed up here. He's 10 keyed down there. 11 MR. : So I guess what I'm 12 saying is like once an inmate is moved, and 13 control needs to be notified. Hey, this guy 14 that was in SHU is now in R&A. Who needs to 15 notify control to make those changes in the 16 system? 17 MR. : The SHU. Hey this guy is 18 down there. 19 MR. : So the SHU. 20 MR. : They'll call control. Yean. 21 MR. : Okay. So whenever - 22 let's say for instance we believe Fernandez was 23 moved from the SHU to R&A on dry cell. The SHU 24 should have contacted control and said we just 25 made this movement. He needs to be rekeyed. EFTA00110853 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : All right. That's the 3 way it works? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : And again, these are just 6 questions. We don't know. 7 MR. : It could be that or the 8 lieutenant could do it. Either or. Hey, I'm 9 moving this guy. I'm moving him here. 10 MR. : So should have a 11 lieutenant been involved in that? 12 MR. : Not necessarily. 13 MR. : Okay. And that's why 14 we're just trying to figure out what is the 15 standard operating procedure? Like what is - 16 typically - what is supposed to happen? 17 MR. : I mean there's no typical. 18 You get it done. Hey, I'm telling you to move 19 him. Or I say I'm moving this guy. The 20 lieutenant told me to move him. And yeah. 21 MR. : I guess but if anybody 22 can do it and no one is told to do it, I guess 23 - I would assume - that it would quite 24 frequently not be done because everyone would 25 be like "well he could have done it - he should EFTA00110854 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 have done it." I'm saying like who is usually 2 supposed to do it? Who is like supposed to 3 take the lead of - make sure that that's done 4 or "we just moved this guy - control you know 5 like key that out." Like how is it supposed to 6 be done? Because otherwise, it's always going 7 to fall apart because then everyone is going to 8 say, "well that person could have done it - 9 that person could have done it." 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So is there anybody 12 that's supposed to do it? 13 MR. : To notify? 14 MR. : Yeah. To make the 15 notifications so that the numbers can be 16 changed on the El? 17 MR. : Yeah. I would say the SHU 18 staff. 19 MR. : SHU staff. 20 MR. : They kind of say hey, this 21 guy is not up there. check to see where he's 22 at. 23 MR. : All right. 24 MR. : Maybe key him to R&D. 25 MR. : Sorry I didn't mean EFTA00110855 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 MR. : No-no. That's exactly what I 2 was thinking or trying to get to. You said the 3 SHU staff could also key it in. If they keyed 4 it in, would this El document get updated? 5 MR. : Well these -. 6 MR. : Or would control have to 7 update it? 8 MR. : Control will update it. 9 MR. : So no matter even if the SHU 10 staff decided if they wanted to update it, 11 control manually has to update this document 12 specifically. 13 MR. : Yeah. Put a number on it. 14 Because this is the last one that was printed. 15 And then you make a change after that it's not 16 going to show. 17 MR. : Okay. This was -. 18 MR. : 9:30. 19 MR. : 9:30. But let's see the 4:00 20 count. I just want to see what time that 21 was printed. 22 MR. : 3:40. 23 MR. : And according to that, the 24 inmate was supposed to be moved at 3:15? 25 MR. : Nah. EFTA00110856 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1, 1 MR. : The daily log -? 2 MR. : Well you said two 3 different - I was going to back to that. You 4 said - one time you said 3:15 and the other 5 time you said 4:00 III. Are you able to tell? 6 MR. : Yeah. It looks like 7 Okay. So let's start with this. This is the 8 9th, right? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So you got nobody starting 11 the shift on dry cell. So this says 3:15 12 inmate Fernandez placed on dry cell from SHU. 13 MR. : Can you just put a star 14 next to that? All right. So then you believe 15 that that is where things got screwed up? They 16 never keyed him out. 17 MR. : Yeah. Inmate Fernandez 18 placed on dry cell; 75 in SHU; I do believe 19 .... All right. So at 9:00 on August 20 9th Friday he goes in at 3:15 in dry cell. And 21 he stays in there overnight. So the 4:00 22 count, he's still keyed in there though, right? 23 MR. : Well that's what we're 24 trying to figure out. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110857 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. : Because it's not caught 2 until -. So we believe from people that we 3 talked to, it was caught at midnight. And that 4 person who caught it said like this person is 5 on dry cell and then revised the numbers and 6 the count. 7 MR. : Mm-hm. 8 MR. : Now we're trying to 9 determine were the counts ever conducted in the 10 SHU? 11 MR. : Mm. 12 MR. : It doesn't appear to us 13 that they would have been. Because they would 14 have caught that at 4:00 III. and the 10:00 15 They would have said this is the number 16 of people we physically have present. 17 MR. : Yeah but I don't see -. 18 MR. : And even at midnight it 19 still says 73. And it's changed to 72. And to 20 us it suggests - and everyone else that we're 21 talking to - that we haven't shared this 22 information with many people. You're one of a 23 very select few that we're even showing this 24 stuff to. 25 MR. : Mm-hm. EFTA00110858 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. : But the people that we've 2 showed it to before says, hey the fact that 3 they're reporting 73 and the actual count is 4 72, they're basically getting the number from 5 this and just writing that down. They're not 6 actually conducting the counts. Would you 7 agree with that statement? 8 MR. : They could do that. Or they 9 could actually be counting but not counting. 10 Making sure that they're just walking and 11 making sure they're alive. 12 MR. : So doing more of a round 13 than a count? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And that is also one of 16 the things that we believe happened. Is that 17 at least on one of the instances, they did do a 18 round, but they didn't do an actual count. 19 MR. : Yeah. Because honestly, I 20 don't see it on this end. A 4:00 and a 10:00. 21 MR. : You don't see what? 22 MR. : The missing of 4:00 and 23 10:00. 24 MR. : Yeah. The fact that they 25 missed both seems very unlikely. EFTA00110859 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : If they're actually 3 counting. Correct? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : And that's why we believe 6 - and it sounds like you agree - they didn't 7 actually do the 4:00, the 10:00, or the 8 midnight count. 9 MR. : No. I mean I'm thinking they 10 did to the 4:00 and the 10:00. 11 MR. : Even though the numbers 12 are wrong? 13 MR. : Yeah. They probably just 14 went off the numbers. 15 MR. : SO you think -- 16 MR. : What -- 17 MR. : -- they conducted the round? 18 MR. : They conducted a round 19 not a count. 20 MR. : Yeah. Or something. 21 MR. : I mean because they can't 22 miss the number if they're actually counting 23 numbers both at 4:00 - or all not just both. 24 At 4:00, at 10:00, and at midnight, all of the 25 count slips are wrong. EFTA00110860 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 MR. : Yeah but then that's what 2 those (Indiscernible *02:08:32) to plus one. 3 It's like they know they got someone, but then 4 it's like -. Like maybe they was told -. 5 MR. : But they're still using 6 the 73 plus one. It should be 72 plus one if 7 they're doing that. 8 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 9 MR. : Unless it was 73 minus 10 one. Then they could do it. But 73 plus one 11 seems to indicate they're using the number 12 that's provided -- 13 MR. : On the El. 14 MR. : -- and saying we got one 15 more down there. 16 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 17 going on with this. That's baffling. 18 MR. : All right. To your 19 knowledge, if they're not doing the count 20 though that's all on the SHU? The people that 21 are in there right now? Nothing to do with 22 lieutenants. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. There's no way for 25 like anyone else other than the people in the EFTA00110861 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 SHU -. Or let me ask it a different way. Is 2 there any way for anyone other than the SHU to 3 know that they're not doing the counts? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : No? Okay. Anything that 6 you didn't initial, just again to say what it 7 is we showed you. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:09:41) 9 MR. : Is this one you or me? 10 MR. : That's (Indiscernible 11 *02:09:48) 12 MR. : So what does this pertain all 13 to - and 14 MR. : Well it's everybody know. 15 Because everybody that's in the SHU. Right? 16 We've got to talk to them. Hey, did you 17 conduct these counts. Or these you know? 18 Because this just brought to light the fact 19 that it doesn't appear that the counts were 20 ever being conducted. So we've got to - that's 21 why we've got to talk to the people that we 22 want to talk to first. People like yourself 23 that were lieutenants on duty. Hey, do you 24 know anything about this? Did you - do you 25 know? EFTA00110862 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 MR. : I mean they wasn't counting. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. 3 But I mean just letting you know like, oh yeah, 4 first we want to know about the cellmate. Hey, 5 did you know anything about this? Did you - it 6 looks like -. From the way that this memo 7 reads, we assumed that either you or told 8 hey, he's WAB. Make sure he gets a 9 cellmate. Because that's one of the reasons 10 why we want to talk -. 11 MR. : Based on that memo? 12 MR. : Yeah. because like the 13 fact that He's saying, I knew. I knew he 14 was going WAB. And I told him. 15 MR. : Mm-hm. 16 MR. : Hey, make sure he gets a 17 cellmate. So the assumption that we were going 18 off of is that either you and/or 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : -- spoke to ana 21 said he's going WAB. Make sure he gets a 22 cellmate. 23 MR. : Mm. 24 MR. : But it sounds like what 25 you're saying is you don't -. You didn't even EFTA00110863 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 know, and you never had that conversation. 2 MR. : With and everything. 3 No. I don't even know - I never knew the dude 4 until that thing came out. You know what I 5 mean. He would have been notified. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But then again, I mean, we do 8 get notified. But usually R&D calls us up. 9 Hey, those two guys ain't coming back. 10 MR. : And is it your belief 11 though by that -? Would it be -? All right. 12 If you said you dint' speak to him. So 13 probably he was notified directly from control? 14 Or R&D? 15 MR. : I would say probably R&D. 16 MR. : So R&D wouldn't call 17 control. And control wouldn't call him? R&D 18 would call directly to the SHU? 19 MR. : That's how we used to do it. 20 MR. : Okay. That's how it 21 would always be? So when you were in the SHU - 22 23 MR. : They call up -. 24 MR. : R&D would call you 25 directly? EFTA00110864 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But again that's evening 2 watch. Again that's on evening watch. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : That guy's not coming back. 5 MR. : But at 1:50 that's early. 6 And that's when it notified. All right. So if 7 he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the 8 court list that morning. And that's what 9 people have told us. So we're going on the 10 assumption that - and this is an assumption. 11 That he was - somebody was contacted in the SHU 12 saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back. 13 He did write possibly. But that's the first 14 that we're seeing WAB. 15 MR. : Mm-hm. 16 MR. : So the thought is that 17 someone contacted . We haven't - we've 18 got to talk to him. But like and say, hey, 19 doesn't look like he's coming back. You know 20 we're just notifying you now. 21 MR. : Mm-hm. 22 MR. : And again we were told 23 typically the way it works - and it sounds like 24 you're correcting us - R&D typically calls 25 control. Control calls ops. Ops calls SHU. EFTA00110865 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 Is that not correct? 2 MR. : What. When an inmate doesn't 3 come back? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? It doesn't work that 7 way? So R&D you're saying typically just would 8 go straight to SHU? 9 MR. : That's a heads up. That's a 10 courtesy. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 13 back. Control knows. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Control knows. They could 16 call control too. But usually they call in you 17 know why would you call me? 18 MR. : I don't know. 19 MR. : You know? You in SHU. 20 MR. : That's just what we were 21 told. 22 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 23 back. 24 MR. : And then again, we're 25 only as good as who the people we talk to. EFTA00110866 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : Whatever information we 3 get is like people like yourself trying to like 4 -. Hey, I know it's probably like yourself it 5 sounds like. At least in the beginning of this 6 thing, you seemed pretty nervous to talk to us 7 because we're really just trying to 8 MR. : No-no. The thing about it 9 The thing is. I know this. This is a high- 10 profile case, looking to point fingers. 11 MR. : Right-right-right-right. 12 MR. : Blame someone. Who dropped 13 the ball? Who did this and that? 14 MR. : Totally get it. 15 MR. : I mean two years later, now 16 it's still like okay, let's go down and see. 17 MR. : And the reason why and 18 I'm sure you saw on the papers what happened 19 recently. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Well that now allows us 22 to try to come back and try to figure out. All 23 right. Now we can do 24 MR. : Yeah. But you're going to go 25 after a whole shift. You know. EFTA00110867 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 MR. : It's not necessarily go 2 after the whole shift. But we've got to figure 3 out what went wrong at the MCC. And what needs 4 to be fixed. Do you know what I'm saying? 5 MR. : I mean -. 6 MR. : But I get -. Trust me -. 7 MR. : Just to deal - they have 8 suicides man. Like they do. 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Totally. 10 MR. : He just happened to be a 11 high-profile one. 12 MR. : Right. And because it's 13 so high-profile, and the fact that there were - 14 15 MR. : The other things with the -- 16 yeah-yeah-yeah. 17 MR. : All these other things 18 are going on now. It looks like there was some 19 false you know slips that were created. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : They weren't doing 22 counts. You know we're getting these signs 23 saying that -- 24 MR. : Yeah but that stuff is -- 25 MR. : -- hey, you're supposed EFTA00110868 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1- 1 to check on him every 2 MR. not the normal though. 3 MR. : Right-right-right-right. 4 MR. : That's not the normal. 5 Definitely. 6 MR. : Yeah. So yeah. And 7 you're right. It's because it's a high-profile 8 9 MR. : I was there for ten years. I 10 used to do that stuff and all that. That's not 11 normal. 12 MR. : What's not normal? 13 MR. : Missed counts and all this 14 and -. Yeah. 15 MR. : And so you're saying that 16 this seems to be abnormal? 17 MR. : It's definitely abnormal. 18 MR. : When you were in the SHU, 19 did you ever - were you ever - did you ever 20 experience people not doing counts? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : People always did counts 23 when you were there? 24 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but here. 25 MR. : And that's -. EFTA00110869 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : You know and that's what 3 people - that's what the conspiracy theorists 4 come in and all that kind of stuff. Like wow, 5 this is one day? And that's where we've got to 6 -. All right. Well let's figure out what 7 actually happened. Is this abnormal or is it 8 normal? You're saying that this seems to be a 9 very abnormal day. 10 MR. : I'm talking about that's why 11 the counts and the slips and the rounds and the 12 falsifying stuff like that. But everything 13 else, I mean, this place is a busy place. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : You know? They lose - 16 inmates go out WAB all the time. New inmates 17 come in. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So this is a revolving door. 20 MR. : All right. I know we're 21 taking a lot longer than we thought. Let me 22 just go through a lot of these things now. 23 Just back to the round sheet where -. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : What is the purpose of a EFTA00110870 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 supervisor actually signing this round sheet? 2 MR. : Making sure the officer is 3 following and doing their rounds how they're 4 supposed to be. 5 MR. : And we don't really need 6 to look at it. Just. All right. So it's not 7 to verify that they were done. It's to verify 8 that the sheets are being kept up? 9 MR. : So if I go up there and I see 10 the times. You all made a round after 40 11 minutes. What happened here? 12 MR. : So you ask them about 13 that. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : But on this date you 16 can't - you don't remember going and speaking 17 to them? 18 MR. : I said I could have went. 19 don't recall. 20 MR. : Okay. And again just 21 going forward, know that these are just simply 22 questions to see what we can find out about 23 that day. And as well as you know the point 24 being you saying that this is such an abnormal 25 day. And it was such a big event that's been EFTA00110871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 in the news now for two years. 2 MR. : Mm-hm. 3 MR. : Just try and really place 4 yourself. What was your role on that day? 5 MR. : Yeah. Like I said I just 6 know I worked. And that was it. 7 MR. : All right. And as far as 8 you know, were rounds being conducted in the 9 SHU at that time? 10 MR. : Yeah. It's day watch. 11 You've got to make rounds. 12 MR. : On day watch you've got 13 to? 14 MR. : There's no way you can avoid 15 a round on day watch. 16 MR. : What about for - and I'm 17 not talking about just your shift - I'm saying 18 the SHU in general. Are you aware that rounds 19 weren't being conducted on evening watch or 20 morning watch? 21 MR. : Weren't? 22 MR. : Yeah. Were not. 23 MR. : Evening watch you've got to 24 make rounds too. I worked SHU for years. 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah. EFTA00110872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : You have to. You've got to 2 go. Yeah . 3 MR. : So when you were there 4 they were being conducted? 5 MR. : Yeah. That's why I'm saying. 6 The whole mess of the count thing. I'm like I 7 don't know. That's -. 8 MR. : Any of those people that 9 we discussed that were on day watch and you 10 know anybody working in the SHU on August 9th 11 and August 10th. Do you have any recollection 12 of speaking with any of those people about 13 morning watch or -? I mean not morning watch. 14 About speaking with about rounds or counts. 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : No. And now being that 17 you were an ops - the ops lieutenant. It 18 sounds like your quarterly post. Would that be 19 something that you would visit with them and 20 just say hey guys make sure you're doing your 21 rounds or anything like that? Would that be a 22 duty or responsibility of an ops lieutenant? 23 MR. : Yeah. But not - it's not 24 really my responsibility. It's the SHU 25 lieutenant. EFTA00110873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 MR. : Yeah-yeah. Did you have 2 any conversations with the SHU lieutenant? At 3 the time? 4 MR. : Yeah. I talked to the SHU 5 lieutenant. Yeah. 6 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 7 MR. : Oh no you said it was 8 Right? 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Do you remember talking 12 to him at all about Epstein or 13 MR. : I ain't seen him since that 14 day. 15 MR. : Prior -? No. What I'm 16 asking about is up until August 10th. 17 MR. : Mm-hm. 18 MR. : Do you remember ever 19 conversing with about make sure you're 20 going these rounds and that Epstein is being 21 you know looked at or he's got a cellmate or 22 anything like that? 23 MR. : Man, I don't recall that. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. : Yeah. But we all you know. EFTA00110874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 It's hey, you got the email. 2 MR. : Right. The email saying 3 he needs a cellmate. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah. And all the 5 lieutenants know. They say oh no, such-and- 6 such we got the email. He was off of watch. 7 You know? 8 MR. : Do you think it's 9 acceptable for any lieutenant to say that they 10 didn't know that Epstein needed a cellmate? 11 MR. : Some people say they didn't 12 know the cellmate left. 13 MR. : No. The - if they're 14 saying that Let's talk about just the 15 people on that day. Let's talk about like for 16 instance somebody that maybe wasn't normally a 17 lieutenant. Can you - 18 MR. : Mm-hm. 19 MR. : All right. So she's in - 20 you said basically she's in training. She's 21 like an acting lieutenant. She's the person -. 22 MR. : I don't think she was acting 23 that day either though. I mean -. 24 MR. : Well I just mean that she 25 was activities' lieutenant. EFTA00110875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 2 MR. : Sorry. She was the 3 activities' lieutenant and she was either 4 training or she's typically an SOS at the time 5 though. Should have she known by Epstein being 6 on the hotlist and Epstein you know coming off 7 suicide watch. Should she have known that he 8 was required to have a cellmate? Just by -? 9 MR. : Uh-uh. No. 10 MR. : No? What about 11 Should he have known? 12 MR. : I mean that's only if you're 13 aware though. If I'm not aware, the guy left. 14 MR. : I thought you said if 15 you're - first of all, I thought you said that 16 17 MR. : Well, no. 18 MR. : Everybody knows that in 19 the SHU you're supposed to have a cellmate 20 unless you're a certain classification. 21 MR. : Yeah. But sometimes it be an 22 odd number and they can't have one. 23 MR. : But then the second thing 24 would be he's on the hotlist. Everybody knows 25 if you're on the hotlist you're supposed to EFTA00110876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 have a cellmate. Right? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : And then the third thing 4 would be that there's an actual email that was 5 sent out and that said he's supposed to have a 6 cellmate. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : So that's where -. With 9 that all in mind -. And I'm not -- 10 MR. : About the notifications -. 11 MR. : -- pointing to one person 12 out in particular. What I'm just asking is 13 these people that were working. So you're not 14 like throwing somebody under the bus. 15 MR. : Oh well. 16 MR. : I'm just asking like as 17 far as these people. Should have known 18 that there should have been -? And I'm not 19 saying that he knew. These people may very 20 well have not have known that I'm 21 just asking like -. 22 MR. : Yeah but I'm thinking. 23 MR. : In general with their 24 positions. 25 MR. : In general. Well EFTA00110877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 probably never got the email. 2 MR. : Like you're saying you 3 knew. So yes. He knew. Should have 4 known? 5 MR. : I think all lieutenants 6 should know. 7 MR. : What about -? 8 MR. : But then again, we all - if 9 you're not aware to the inmate's leaving, 10 there's no reason to follow-up. 11 MR. : And that's why I started 12 after you. So at this point you said at least 13 by 8:00, people should know -. 14 MR. : That the guy's not coming 15 back or something. 16 MR. : He's not coming back. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : So that's where I'm going 19 off of -. Alright, there's three lieutenants 20 from that point. After you leave, there's 21 three lieutenants. Right? There's 22 MR. : Mm-hm. 23 MR. -: 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : And then the next EFTA00110878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 morning, . Should - who 2 replaced you - should she have known that he 3 needed a cellmate? 4 MR. : I could see her not knowing. 5 MR. : And is that because she 6 wasn't a lieutenant? 7 MR. : Not a lieutenant. 8 MR. : Okay. What about 9 10 MR. He's not a lieutenant. 11 MR. : So should have he known? 12 MR. : Yeah. Or knew. Like I said. 13 we all knew. 14 MR. : You all knew. 15 MR. : Because we got the email. 16 MR. : And then what about 17 ? Not only the email though. It 18 sounds like there was at least three checks. 19 One: he's in the SHU. Should have a cellmate. 20 Two: he came off of suicide watch. Should have 21 a cellmate. Three: an email was sent out to 22 all the lieutenants. Should have a cellmate. 23 So is there any -? 24 MR. : Yeah, but two and three 25 happens all the time though. Like the guy EFTA00110879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 comes off suicide watch. You put him in SHU 2 with a cellmate. And then again, that's not 3 forever. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But in this 5 case, you know, July 30th to August 9th or 6 10th. 7 MR. : But is it a set -? I don't 8 think -. That's up to psychology. Because we 9 have guys that - suicide watch. Same thing. 10 Once they leave, they didn't commit suicide and 11 it's nothing. 12 MR. : So if you get this email 13 then on July 30th saying make sure he's got a 14 cellmate. 15 MR. : There's no time on it. 16 MR. : In your mind, is that -? 17 Well two weeks from now? He doesn't need one 18 anymore. 19 MR. : There's no set time. It's 20 just immediately this guy's coming off. A guy 21 maybe got kicked to the unit. 22 MR. : Okay. So in his case -. 23 All right. How should it have been -? What 24 kind of notification should have been made 25 then? EFTA00110880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. : This is a tough one. But if 2 a guy goes to court and he leaves, you know and 3 you're doing your daily operations. There's so 4 much going on. Epstein ain't the - I know he's 5 high-profile out to the outside. 6 MR. : But I mean he's still on 7 the hotlist. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So he's on the hotlist 10 still. So doesn't that indicate he needs 11 cellmate? If he's still on the hotlist. 12 MR. : Yeah. But he had one. 13 Right? 14 MR. : Right. And that's why 15 I'm saying. By - we're knocking you and we're 16 knocking out of this thing because you're 17 saying 8:00. So let's now look at 8:00 on. 18 Let's say - even for this instance let's even 19 say and they didn't know. Now 20 let's look at Certainly by 21 midnight you should have known. Right? 22 MR. : Yeah. But not a lieutenant 23 though. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. : Like if the information isn't EFTA00110881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 told to me -. 2 MR. : But if they're coming in 3 You said that they needed to do a around. 4 Right? Don't these - for this case 5 needed to do a round in the SHU. 6 Correct? 7 MR. : Mm-hm. 8 MR. : Check on all the inmates. 9 MR. : Check inmates, feeding, or 10 officers - making sure they doing the rounds or 11 got to go to SHU. 12 MR. -: Was she 13 required to check on all the inmates and do a 14 round? 15 MR. : When she was probably doing a 16 round. Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. So as far as 18 her. By that point, now we've only got You 19 know we're now -. You know let's say that 20 she's the one that corrected you know the count 21 slip. She caught that. She goes. She visited 22 -. She's supposed to go to the SHU. She's 23 supposed to actually visit all the tiers and do 24 a round? 25 MR. : I mean our policy is really EFTA00110882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 to say you've got to do a round in the SHU. 2 You know. So you in SHU, you in SHU. I don't 3 know what did she do. 4 MR. : And that's where I was 5 getting to before. Is doing a round in the SHU 6 for a lieutenant - does that mean just walking 7 into the SHU and walking out? Or does that 8 entail actually doing something when you're in 9 there? 10 MR. : I don't think -. There's no 11 guidance on that. 12 MR. : So we've had other people 13 tell us that when you - a lieutenant is 14 actually required to walk the tiers and conduct 15 a round. Not to list it on the round sheet, 16 but like it were - like the people who list 17 those rounds on the rounds sheet. Is that 18 you're understanding of what you were supposed 19 to do? 20 MR. : I mean yeah. 21 MR. : So is that what she 22 should have done? She should have walked the 23 tiers and checked on the inmates? 24 MR. : Yeah. I mean -. 25 MR. : By policy I'm saying. EFTA00110883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : By policy you've got to make 2 a round. 3 MR. : And that round is 4 classified as like a round like the COs who are 5 in the SHU do a round? 6 MR. : I've got to double check on 7 that. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : To tell you the truth. 10 MR. : And that's what's unsure? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : You're unclear? Okay. 13 And that's where I'm still trying. Because 14 we've also had less people - but some people 15 have also said no, a round for a lieutenant and 16 a round for a CO is different. A round for a 17 lieutenant is visiting the SHU and checking in 18 with the officers. We've had more people say 19 no-no-no-no-no. You need to go into the SHU. 20 You need to check in with the officers, but you 21 also need to walk the tier. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : And I'm trying to get 24 that like -. 25 MR. : It depends on the lieutenant. EFTA00110884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 MR. : And then their 2 interpretation? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But there's no -? 5 MR. : Like I said that's why I 6 really don't - I'll have to check on that part. 7 MR. : Okay. And what policy 8 would that be in? Where it would spell that 9 out? 10 MR. : That would be in inmate 11 discipline which is SHU. And it also would 12 probably be in psychology. 13 MR. : So it would be psychology 14 for if the lieutenant needs to do it? 15 MR. : I know it's about 30 rounds 16 and everything. 17 MR. : But it would also be like 18 19 MR. : But for lieutenants -. 20 MR. : It would also be like a 21 SHU type of -? 22 MR. : Yeah. But I'm thinking it's 23 more You got the polices? 24 MR. : Well I got the SHU 25 policies. I don't have the psychology. EFTA00110885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 2 3 4 MR. MR. going to look. MR. Isn't it in there? : I don't know. I was : Yeah. Let me see. It might 5 be. Psychology is definitely the 30-minute 6 7 8 rounds. I know. MR. : Again these aren't "I gotcha." These are just genuine questions. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : But psychology you think 11 might have it with like lieutenants -. 12 MR. : Well they definitely with the 13 30 minutes. The -. 14 MR. : Yeah. I mean the SHU 15 policy clearly states that rounds need to be 16 conducted. I just haven't seen anything that 17 said lieutenants need to do it. And that's 18 where - I mean you can look through them if you 19 want. 20 MR. : Nah. 21 MR. : If you can -. 22 MR. : I think it's in there. It 23 may not be in this, but it's definitely in 24 there. 25 MR. : Speaking of lieutenants, EFTA00110886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 we don't need to make you look in this. We'll 2 look it up. 3 MR. : This is post orders. 4 MR. : We'll dig into that. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : But you think it's 7 probably in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yeah. It's a round, but to 9 say specific go 10, check on and all that. I 10 don't know if it says all that. 11 MR. : All right. It just says 12 you need to conduct a round. And then 13 different people interpret it different way. 14 MR. : Yeah. Yep. 15 MR. : All right. You said -. 16 MR. : But then again, if she don't 17 get the information, I can see it being missed. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Because if no one tells me 20 that the guy left -. 21 MR. : But if she says that i 22 know left, I know Epstein is by himself. 23 But I didn't know he needed a cellmate. 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : Does that make sense to EFTA00110887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 you at all? 2 MR. : I mean. Unless she didn't 3 read the email or she's not -. I don't know 4 how it is. Maybe she wasn't aware. 5 MR. : But I mean that fact that 6 - again - those three things we talked about. 7 I understand you say like odd number or you 8 know that kind of stuff. But the fact that 9 there's an email that went out, there's the 10 hotlist that has his name on it, and the fact 11 that he's in the SHU and he's not one of those. 12 So one of those three, she should have at least 13 known, right, that Epstein was required to have 14 a cellmate? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : So her saying I didn't 17 know. Is that to you like, of course you knew. 18 You've been around for a long time. Whereas -. 19 MR. : I mean I'm thinking she needs 20 - no one told her. 21 MR. : No one verbalized it to 22 her. 23 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 24 MR. : But do you think that 25 that's an appropriate excuse for a lieutenant? EFTA00110888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 Saying that I didn't know if those three things 2 are in place? 3 MR. : I'm not sure. 4 MR. : You're not sure. And I 5 know you don't want to like - you know - but 6 like - I'm just trying to reconcile it too. 7 Like alright, if you're saying you didn't know, 8 how is that possible if everybody else -. 9 Everybody else I talked to seems to know. 10 MR. : Then again, I told you the 11 hotlist and all that. That's things that's 12 like -. Like the email, even though it's out, 13 that's - there's no timeframe on that. 14 MR. : Yeah. But the fact that 15 they're still on the hotlist, I would think 16 that that would continue because the email went 17 out -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- but then you're also 20 placed on the hotlist. And if you're on the 21 hotlist it basically corresponds with that 22 email. Correct? 23 MR. : Yeah. But the hotlist is for 24 initial. So you get locked up, that's when I'm 25 checking. I know I'm checking to see if this EFTA00110889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 inmate is on the hotlist. Initially. 2 MR. : So only when the hotlist 3 changes? You're not looking at the people that 4 are still on the hotlist? 5 MR. : Well I'm saying like if 6 there's ten on there. and a guy gets locked up 7 - Williams from 11 North. He comes and he just 8 got a psych alert and we make sure he get a 9 bunkie. He got a bunkie. He goes a month with 10 a bunkie. Day 31 we're not still - you know. 11 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So in this 12 case you think even July 30th to August 9th 13 when the guy leaves that could be enough time 14 to say he doesn't need one anymore? 15 MR. : I mean I'm not psychology. 16 MR. : All right. And you don't 17 know of psychology making any more -? No one 18 told you -? 19 MR. : No one specified the time 20 frame - 21 MR. : I need to -. 22 MR. : -- about how long he was 23 going to be -. 24 MR. : Did anyone after July 25 30th after receiving that email, did anyone EFTA00110890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 talk to you about Epstein needing a cellmate? 2 MR. : Not that I recall. 3 MR. : No? Who should have? If 4 he in fact did continue to need a cellmate, who 5 should have told you? 6 MR. : I say psychology. 7 MR. : Psychology? Not the 8 captain or another lieutenant? It was 9 psychology? 10 MR. : Psychology. They deal with 11 that. 12 MR. : And who in psychology? 13 MR. : Any one of them. 14 MR. : Anybody? 15 MR. : Anyone. Hey, it's an email. 16 MR. : So just you think that 17 they should have continued like once a week or 18 something sending out an email? Or how often? 19 MR. : I mean 20 MR. : Because that wasn't even 21 two weeks after that email went out. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So like how soon should 24 they? 25 MR. : I don't think a weekly or you EFTA00110891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 know. 2 MR. : That was maybe ten days. 3 MR. : Because I don't know. I 4 don't know. I know they (Indiscernible 5 *02:30:39) to us so I don't know their policy. 6 Because I know they supposed to follow-up. And 7 then there's steps to it. I don't know. I'm 8 not familiar with that policy. 9 MR. : Okay. But you think it 10 was psychology's - they're the ones that should 11 have made sure like there's people -- 12 MR. : Well they -. 13 MR. : -- in the SHU and the -. 14 MR. : They sent out the email to 15 us. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : They notified us. 18 MR. : But you're saying like 19 that could be like a day or two. It doesn't 20 mean that two weeks from there it matters. 21 MR. : Yeah, I mean. That happens 22 two weeks after that? Yeah. The guy goes to 23 court. He leaves. There's a time and 24 opportunity. And I don't think it's nobody's 25 fault. EFTA00110892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : You think it's just -? 2 MR. : I just don't think it's 3 nobody's fault. 4 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 5 this sign - or any sign - hanging up saying 6 that he needed a cellmate, or he needed to be 7 30-minute rounds on him? 8 MR. : I definitely don't recall 9 that Signs about you saying him needed rounds 10 or -? 11 MR. : That's the rounds. 12 MR. : No the one that - 13 MR. : And then you don't -. 14 MR. : Another one is. 15 MR. : Another one saying that 16 he was required to have a cellmate. 17 MR. : The sign? 18 MR. : So we've been told that 19 there was a sign saying that Epstein was 20 required to have a cellmate in the SHU on the 21 desk area. 22 MR. : Could have been. I don't 23 know. I don't be in the desk area. 24 MR. : So you don't - you're not 25 aware? But you know that there was a hotlist EFTA00110893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 at least. 2 MR. : No. The hotlist is there. 3 It's been there since I was working there. The 4 hotlist is back there. And that's about it. 5 MR. : And do you know if 6 Epstein was on the hotlist? 7 MR. : No. I'm not sure. 8 MR. : You're not sure. 9 MR. : Do you have the hotlist? 10 MR. : Not with us. No. I don't 11 think. Do we have it? No. You said you 12 didn't even as the ops lieutenant you don't 13 recall specific conversations with anybody that 14 worked in the SHU on August 9th or 10th? No? 15 MR. : Specific conversation, no. 16 It was a regular day. 17 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I mean 18 up - leading from basically July 30th to August 19 9th. 20 MR. : Oh. About the -? 21 MR. : About the need for 22 checking on Epstein or a cellmate or anything 23 to do with Epstein? 24 MR. : No. All I know is when he 25 tried it the first time, he went to suicide EFTA00110894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 watch. Came off. And they put him with the 2 other guy. No-no. They put him with someone 3 else. I don't know. 4 MR. : So initially he is with - 5 is it 6 MR. _: he was named. 7 Yeah. 8 MR. : And then he went to 9 suicide watch. 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Came back on Jul 30th 12 like that. So from July 30th to August 9th. 13 As ops lieutenant or otherwise, did you have 14 any conversations with anybody working on the 15 SHU - in the SHU - on August 9th or August 10th 16 about Epstein? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : And what were those 19 conversations entail? 20 MR. Uh you know just hey, leave 21 him with - just gotta make sure they got down 22 here early. You've got legal visits. Uh I 23 know he was asking for a phone call. This is 24 like basic you know regular stuff. 25 MR. : What about with regard to EFTA00110895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 making sure they're doing rounds or that he has 2 a cellmate? Did you have any conversations 3 from the time you got that email on? After you 4 got that email, did you call down to the SHU 5 and say hey, or visit the SHU, and say hey make 6 sure he's got a -? 7 MR. : I can't recall. 8 MR. : Did you -? 9 MR. : And I wouldn't do it if I'm 10 not the - 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : You know? 13 MR. : Did you take any action 14 after receiving that email? Did you talk to 15 anybody about it? 16 MR. : I can't recall. 17 MR. : That email was Why 18 was that email sent out to all the lieutenants? 19 MR. : I told you. They send it out 20 every time someone comes off suicide watch. 21 MR. : Right. So what is the 22 purpose of that? 23 MR. : For the doing they job. 24 MR. : So by you getting it and 25 doing your job as like an ops lieutenant. Or EFTA00110896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 an activities' lieutenant. What does that - is 2 that something that you're supposed to make 3 other people aware of? Or why do they provide 4 you with that information? 5 MR. : I think they required to. 6 MR. : They're required to? 7 MR. : I think they're required, or 8 it could be a reminder. Hey, by the way, this 9 guy's getting released off suicide watch and 10 placed him with an inmate in SHU. 11 MR. : But is it so you can then 12 follow-up to make sure the CO's know? Or there 13 must be a reason rather than just for your own 14 information. There's got to be. Usually 15 you're provided information for a specific 16 reason. So why are lieutenants provided that 17 information? Rather than just the SHU 18 lieutenant? Why are everybody else provided 19 it? 20 MR. Uh I'm not sure. But they 21 send an email out to everybody though. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Lieutenants (Indiscernible 24 *02:35:05). 25 MR. : SO that's what I'm EFTA00110897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 saying. Well it's not an all-staff email. 2 It's like -. 3 MR. : No. It's a correctional 4 services and correctional systems. Right? 5 MR. : Oh you can tell me. Here 6 I'll show you. I thought it was primarily 7 lieutenants. I mean I think a couple SHU staff 8 might be on there. But it's the three pages 9 behind it. 10 MR. : Okay. So suicide watch psych 11 observation update. So you got legal in here, 12 food service, case managers, lieutenants, unit 13 team -. 14 MR. : So by reviewing that are 15 you able to tell like is there a target 16 audience that they're 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : -- sending it out to? 19 MR. : This is to make everybody 20 aware. 21 MR. : Because it's not an all- 22 staff email though is it? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So who are they sending 25 it to? EFTA00110898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 MR. : Uh.... 2 MR. : Like how do they come up 3 with that group of people to send it to? 4 MR. : It's the same way we do the 5 logs. We send it to the same group every 6 night. 7 MR. : What group is that? 8 MR. : Then Executive staff, then 9 lieutenants, then psychology, then a psycho 10 assistant, it's a 11 MR. : So is it all correctional 12 staff though? 13 MR. : Correctional staff yeah. 14 It's not all correctional officers though. 15 MR. : So is everybody but the 16 officers? 17 MR. : You got some officers on here 18 too. 19 MR. : But you're not sure how 20 they make that decision? 21 MR. : No. Yeah. You got medical, 22 lieutenants, food service, R&D, legal, duty 23 officer, yeah. I mean I think they would 24 probably do this it's for your information. 25 Like FYI. EFTA00110899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 MR. : But you know -. I 2 understand where the FYI. 3 MR. : Is that a target audience? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : You're not clear on why 7 they -- 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:37:15) No. 9 MR. send it to those 10 specific people? Okay. But as far as you 11 receiving it. 12 MR. : Yeah, I can't recall if i 13 spoke to him about it up internal or not. 14 MR. : And that wouldn't be like 15 - that's not the way it works whereas provide 16 the information to lieutenants and the 17 lieutenants make sure that you provide the 18 information the COs? 19 MR. : It depends on your area. 20 Like if I'm the SHU lieutenant right now, 21 right. 22 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 23 MR. : So they say hey, this 24 guy's coming in. Make sure. Okay. Make sure 25 you know. I'm saying directly to the staff I'm EFTA00110900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 supervising. 2 MR. : Is it the ops 3 lieutenant's job to make sure the SHU 4 lieutenant does it? 5 MR. : Mm. 6 MR. : Is there any oversight 7 there? Does the ops lieutenant kind of have 8 oversight over the SHU lieutenant? 9 MR. : I mean sometimes the SHU 10 lieutenant has rank on an ops lieutenant. 11 MR. : Oh. It depends on if 12 you're a 9 or an 11? 13 MR. : yeah. 14 MR. : All right. So it's not 15 based upon the position that you're holding? 16 Like the ops lieutenant doesn't - like that 17 position doesn't -. 18 MR. : I mean we don't supervise 19 lieutenants. No lieutenant supervises 20 lieutenants. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : That's - we have a 23 supervisor. 24 MR. : No-no-no. And again, 25 these are questions just for us to try to EFTA00110901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 understand how the operation works here. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : And it again, not placing 4 blame on you whatsoever. It's just trying to 5 figure out how is it supposed to work? If 6 they're saying it's you, are you supposed to do 7 something with that information? 8 MR. : I mean but the thing is they 9 followed-up up until that time. 10 MR. : What do you mean? 11 MR. : He had a bunkie up until that 12 time. 13 MR. : Right. So they put it 14 out. He had a bunkie. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : And then he didn't. And 17 that's what we're trying to figure out. 18 MR. : And then (Indiscernible 19 *02:38:39). 20 MR. : Who - where was the 21 communication breakdown? Who should have at 22 that time taken action to make sure he had a 23 bunkie? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : And that's the whole EFTA00110902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 thing we're looking into. Who should have made 2 sure Epstein -? Once was removed and 3 people were notified that he was removed. Who 4 should have taken action? 5 MR. : yeah. 6 MR. : And who in your opinion 7 should have? 8 MR. : I don't know man that's 9 tough one. Yeah. 10 MR. : But like even position 11 wise. Not to name names. What position should 12 have taken action? 13 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. I'm not 14 sure with that one there. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : I just - that just -. The 17 guy left and I mean, you know. 18 MR. : Now I'm just handing you 19 back this lieutenant log. 20 MR. : Mm-hm. 21 MR. : You know a few pages 22 back. But um did you - were you involved with 23 that lieutenant's log? Did you make any 24 entries on that lieutenant log on August 9th? 25 MR. : I'm not sure. EFTA00110903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to 2 tell by looking at it? Like is that something 3 you can tell who made entries? Or is it anyone 4 can make an entry? 5 MR. : I mean we all can make an 6 entry. 7 MR. : Does it show like 8 initials or anything like that after an entry 9 was made? Does it show who made what entry? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : No? Does it show 12 anything with regard to on that 13 lieutenant's log? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : What does it say? 16 MR. -: to pre-remove. 17 MR. : And what does that mean? 18 MR. : Pre-trial remove. 19 MR. : Does that mean that he's 20 leaving and he's not coming back? 21 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 22 MR. : What time does it say 23 that? 24 MR. : Or -. Yeah. Or -. Yeah. It 25 depends. 8:38. EFTA00110904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 MR. : So 8:38. Does that mean 2 at 8:38 pretrial to remove? Does that mean 3 that they knew at 8:38 that he wasn't coming 4 back? 5 MR. : Not necessarily. 6 MR. : What does it mean? 7 MR. : It means that's when they put 8 the information in. 9 MR. : But I'm saying like what 10 the information says. Is that what normally 11 that people are going to court - what it says 12 for them - if they're coming back? 13 MR. Mm. No. Normally they say 14 it's taken off the count. Pretrial is removed. 15 So he was taken off the count from 7:00 to 6:00 16 he was taken off the count. 17 MR. : Are people that go to 18 court always taken off the count? 19 MR. Mm. No. 20 MR. : So by looking at that, 21 that tells you that he was already WAB? 22 MR. : Mm. I mean if they go to 23 Brooklyn, sometimes they take them off or a 24 different court. But this one here, I would 25 say yeah, taken off the count. And again I'm EFTA00110905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 not sure. I see pre-remove proof. Pre-remove. 2 MR. : But by saying pre-remove, 3 does that mean it's more likely that he's -- 4 MR. HE's taken off the count. 5 MR. : -- not coming back? 6 MR. : Uh. Yeah. 7 MR. : And who would have made 8 that entry? 9 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 10 MR. : Do you know if you made 11 that entry? 12 MR. : I'm not sure. 13 MR. : And there's no way to 14 tell? 15 MR. : Mm. 16 MR. : So I guess the question 17 is at approximately 8:30 , did we already know 18 as the BOP - did we already know hey, this 19 guy's probably not coming back? 20 MR. : Um. I'm not sure. 21 MR. : What does it show if he was 22 coming back? 23 MR. : That's why I say 8:00. 24 MR. : No-no-no. What would show? 25 MR. : If he was coming back? EFTA00110906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : You said that's it's pre- 2 remove. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : If he was coming back, what 5 would it show? Would it say pre-remove or 6 would it say something else? 7 MR. : See that's the thing is -. I 8 mean. 9 MR. : Like not that he was 10 coming back. Like if he's just going to court, 11 and you don't know if he's coming back or not. 12 If he's going to court. 13 MR. : Mm-hm. 14 MR. : And he's not WAB. Would 15 it say that? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : So it would only say that 18 if they thought he wasn't coming back? 19 MR. : Mm. Yeah. Probably. 20 MR. : All right. So then it 21 looks like from looking at that. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : At - by 8:38, we knew he 24 was probably not coming back? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 2 3 4 MR. : All right. And with that knowledge, should have any action - or should have any notification at least been made of hey, Epstein's cellmate is likely not coming 5 back. We need to start thinking about a new 6 cellmate. For the people that knew. 7 MR. : I'm not sure. You know. The 8 thing is this is when it was -. See our log is 9 not -. I could go in and see what time someone 10 left and input it. 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : That's what we do. At the 13 end of the shift. 14 MR. : So at 4:00 III. this 15 could have been updated is what you're saying? 16 Not at 8:30? 17 MR. : Uh probably like 3:00 around 18 there. Yeah. It's not the only one. 19 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 20 specifically, I'm just saying like later in the 21 day. 22 MR. : It's not an ongoing thing. 23 MR. : It could have been -. So 24 But does that But do you wouldn't put 25 8:38 - this is when that happened - if at 8:38 EFTA00110908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 you dint' know that. Would you? 2 MR. : Well if I don't check it, I 3 wouldn't know it. 4 MR. : Right. I'm not saying 5 you specifically. 6 MR. : No I mean anybody. If I go 7 on the computer and it has a time. And it says 8 these are the people that left. That's what 9 I'm going off of. 10 MR. : So -. 11 MR. : If I don't check it at 8:38 12 or - I won't know. 13 MR. : So when I say "you" 14 though I'm talking about BOP. So what I'm 15 saying is like the person who entered that. 16 They're entering it as if at 8:38 it was known 17 that he was likely not coming back. Is that 18 correct? 19 MR. : It was known to BOP. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 23 "you" I'm saying -. 24 MR. : BOP. There's no officers 25 would yeah. EFTA00110909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 MR. : Yeah. And who likely 2 would have entered that? Like who has access 3 to enter that? Control and lieutenants. Who 4 else? 5 6 MR. Mm. I think that's about it. MR. : All right. So at that 7 time, it would have been either you, , or 8 control. Correct? 9 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 10 MR. : But I'm just saying like 11 it's - you're the only two lieutenants on. And 12 then control. Right? 13 MR. : Again, I'm not sure. 14 MR. : And this is all just - I 15 didn't even realize this until we're now 16 reviewing it. So this isn't a - I promise you 17 this isn't like a setup. This is just trying 18 of figure out. 19 MR. : I'm not sure. Because what 20 if - what if I say hey, I didn't do the log. 21 Or what if hey, you forgot the log. You have 22 to do this. 23 MR. : What do you mean? 24 MR. : If you get an emergency. 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah. EFTA00110910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Hey listen, relieve me 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 3 MR. : I ain't touch the log. All 4 right. Whatever. I got you. 5 MR. : Right-right. So you 6 don't - so what you're just saying is you don't 7 know if it was -- 8 MR. : I don't know. 9 MR. : -- you, 10 MR. : I don't know. 11 MR. : -- or control? 12 MR. : I don't know who did it. 13 MR. : All right. Because I 14 mean like I know like I'm pretty sure 15 knew he was going but he didn't know he wasn't 16 coming back. Is that correct? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : So that's - I think 19 that's what you're -. 20 MR. : Yeah. But the thing about it 21 with this is if I relieve you and you didn't do 22 nothing. Hey, you know, look out for me. I 23 got you next time. Okay. So just because it's 24 on day watch don't mean day watch staff did it. 25 MR. : So that -. EFTA00110911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 MR. : You know what I'm saying. 2 MR. : So that could have been 3 filled out by someone other than that was even 4 present at 8:38? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : How would they know? 7 MR. : They got a computer. 8 MR. : What would they see at 9 the computer? 10 MR. : It's on Sentry. 11 MR. : So on Sentry it would say 12 if he was WAS or not? 13 MR. : All movement for the day. 14 MR. : Would that -? 15 MR. : All the movement. 16 MR. : And would that be 17 maintained for a long period of time? Or is 18 that constantly refreshed? 19 MR. : It refreshed until midnight. 20 MR. : And then you - at this 21 point in time would we be able to go back and 22 see what did it say? 23 MR. : I could come in at 10:00 or 24 11:00 at night and do a whole 24 hours of 25 movement. EFTA00110912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. : All right. So you don't 2 know. 3 MR. : I don't know who did this. 4 Was it day watch or what? 5 MR. : And there's no way to 6 tell by looking at it? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Is there in Sentry any 9 way to tell who entered it? 10 MR. : We don't do the Sentry. We 11 just take the information off of Sentry. 12 MR. : Oh. Well who would have 13 put it in Sentry? 14 MR. : R&D. 15 MR. : Okay. So R&D could have 16 put it in Sentry and then whomever - either one 17 of the lieutenants or control would have typed 18 it in? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Or yeah somebody. 22 MR. : All right. So with this 23 information at 8:38, would it have been - if at 24 8:38 we knew that -? And when I say "we" - BOP 25 or whomever - R&D. control - knew that he was EFTA00110913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 going and likely not coming back. Who should 2 have started making those notifications that 3 Epstein was without a cellmate? Is that SHU 4 staff? Is it lieutenants? 5 MR. : You said they known at this 6 time? 7 MR. : Yeah. So at 8:38, he's 8 going WAB. He leaves with a brown paper bag 9 and he' got stuff with him. He knows he's not 10 coming back. is saying I'm out. I'm not 11 coming back. 12 MR. : Mm-hm. 13 MR. : Who should have at that 14 point should have it been the SHU staff that 15 started making notifications? Hey, we know 16 Epstein's cellmate is gone. We need to start 17 making some rounds. Is that you know the ops 18 or the activities' lieutenant should have said 19 hey, he's gone. We've got to notify the 20 captain. 21 MR. : I mean the thing of it is. 22 MR. : Like who should have -? 23 MR. : I don't even know who the 24 dude is. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00110914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. : So for one, a regular staff 2 wouldn't even know who bunkie is. 3 MR. : And that's where my 4 question. Should SHU have started saying like 5 this is - hey ops and activities' lieutenant. 6 This guy is Epstein's cellmate. We need 7 to start thinking about putting a cellmate and 8 getting a new cellmate assigned. 9 MR. : That's again if they 10 definitely knew he wasn't coming back. Just 11 because this - like you can get a pre-remove -. 12 MR. : And is that why -? 13 MR. : And then at 4:50 you get pre- 14 remove to such-and-such. 15 MR. : Okay. So is that why 16 memo that said, "possibly not coming 17 back and will likely need a new cellmate." Is 18 that why that's the appropriate response? 19 MR. : Possibly. Probably. Because 20 you never could tell. 21 MR. : And is that why you're 22 saying that they would have written possibly 23 because at this point it looks like it's 24 likely, but it's not definite. 25 MR. : Yeah. I could see him EFTA00110915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 could see that happening because like you said, this happens all the time. MR. it says that possibly may Epstein will : All inmate not return. be needing a from his attorney visit. knew - SHU. Should activities' lieutenant - or lieutenant? MR. : I mean. MR. : I'm not saying that he did or that you know. You already said you dint'. MR. should have. right. Because again was going WAB and Also that inmate cellmate upon arrival MR. MR. MR. MR. So looks like they have told you - - ops : I'm not even saying that he : oh. : I don't know. : Okay. : If he was notified, and he said it could be. Again I told you 8:00. That's (Indiscernible *02:49:44) guys come in all the time from court. MR. : Yeah-yeah. But I'm just saying with the fact that Epstein - everybody EFTA00110916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 knows he needs a cellmate. Should have they 2 notified up the chain of command at this point? 3 MR. : What if he came back at 8:00? 4 MR. : But what I'm saying is 5 like the fact that they know it's possible and 6 likely. Should have they started making 7 notifications being that you were the ops 8 lieutenant for a long time. You were a 9 lieutenant now it seems for a number of years. 10 In your expert opinion as a lieutenant -- 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : Should these guys have 13 started making some notifications? 14 MR. Mm. That's hard to say. 15 Because if you pass on this information, 16 possibly the guy shows up at 8:00. What 17 notification I need to make? 18 MR. : Okay. So you were the 19 activities' lieutenant and was the 20 activities' lieutenant when that thing says 21 8:38. Do you believe -- 22 MR. : He said that um -. 23 MR. : -- as that person who was 24 you know the ops and the activities' lieutenant 25 - those two people. Do you believe at that EFTA00110917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 time that these notifications should have been 2 made to you? Would have you - do you believe 3 you should have been made aware? 4 MR. : At 8:30? 5 MR. : Or any time between 8:30 6 and I guess 1:50. During your shift. If your 7 shift ended at 2:00 or 4:00. We don't know. 8 MR. : I'm not sure because this - 9 you see pre-removal all the time. They come 10 back. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : That's why I could see him 13 saying hey, this guy might not come back. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : But it's a possibility he 16 can. 17 MR. : So then -. 18 MR. : So to make notifications -. 19 MR. : If he did it this way 20 If told the oncoming staff this is 21 what's up, do you think he took appropriate 22 action? 23 MR. : Who? 24 MR. -: . If he in fact 25 EFTA00110918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 MR. : By passing it on? 2 MR. : -- passed on that 3 information saying hey guys, you know he's 4 saying he said it's the day of and 5 . Right as he's gone, that's Epstein's 6 celimate. He's going to - like if he doesn't 7 come back, definitely he's going to need a 8 celimate. 9 MR. : He said that to who you 10 saying? 11 MR. : Well this is what the 12 memo says. It says that - again, "On Friday, 13 August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:50 III., I 14 ) passed on to oncoming staff member 15 Officer and present shift staff - 16 and Officer - that inmate was 17 going WAB and possibly may not return. Also 18 that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate 19 upon arrival from his attorney visit." 20 MR. : Okay. So and 21 was on day watch? 22 MR. : Uh I don't know. It 23 sounds like what he says is that he told 24 MR. _: 25 MR. : And these guys were also EFTA00110919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 present. 2 MR. : So in my expert option, at 3 that time, he did the right thing. 4 MR. : All right. So by this, 5 he shouldn't have passed it up to the ops and 6 activities' lieutenant. He should have kept it 7 in-house until it was definite. 8 MR. : It's premature. Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. Because that would 10 have been premature prior to this time. 11 MR. : Yeah. Because like I said 12 that time. If he came back, then oh. I 13 thought you said we need to know to change him 14 out or we start - yeah. 15 MR. : And even keeping in mind 16 that both , or however you pronounce 17 his name. 18 MR. : Well after that I don't think 19 he was bunked with him after that. 20 MR. : Him and -. No-no-no. 21 What I'm saying is both of his previous inmates 22 - Epstein I'm saying - and 23 they were both vetted from the highest of 24 levels. Even with that knowledge, you think 25 that they should have still waited. EFTA00110920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2/- 1 MR. : I mean I don't under -. 2 MR. : They were vetted by the 3 captain, the warden, and the regional director. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : So obviously it took some 6 doing. 7 MR. Mm-hm. But didn't get -. 8 MR. : With that knowledge, do 9 you think that they should have told you? Or 10 no you still think it's premature. 11 MR. : At 1:50? Um. 12 MR. : Well I mean not at 1:50. 13 MR. : I mean I don't know. 14 MR. : It looks like 8:38. 15 MR. : Then again, I told you about 16 that. If I don't check for it, I don't know -. 17 MR. : no-no-no. I'm not saying 18 I'm not saying you checking for him. You 19 already -. 20 MR. : No. I'm talking about 21 anybody. 22 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But what 23 I'm saying like it appears that in looking at 24 that, it appears that they knew he was WAB 25 since 8:38, right? EFTA00110921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So I'm saying between 3 8:38 and whatever the end of your shift is 4 MR. : No one said nothing to us. 5 MR. : -- do you believe someone 6 should have said something to you? 7 MR. : I'm not sure. Because then 8 again, you could look at another log where 9 it'll say from pre-remove to ZA. You 10 understand? 11 MR. : Right. Because he didn't 12 actually -. 13 MR. : So that's why I could see him 14 saying well I'm letting y'all know. I'm 15 passing on to you and you because you're going 16 to be here. Possibly. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : I'm giving you the heads up. 19 MR. : So I guess -. And I 20 understood you answered that question. But 21 what I said was - considering the fact that it 22 takes at least almost an entire day to vet who 23 was even going to be placed with him, do you 24 think that they should have started moving this 25 up the chain of command knowing that this guy - EFTA00110922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 no inmate - just a regular inmate shouldn't be 2 placed with this guy. He needs to be vetted. 3 It's vetted all the way up to the regional 4 director's level. 5 MR. : Yeah. I'm not sure on that 6 one. 7 MR. : Yeah sure. Yeah. All 8 right. Not sure. So is there anything else if 9 it says with ? Does it say when he was 10 actually -- 11 MR. : It just says 8:38 pre- 12 removed. That means taken off the count. Now 13 if he comes back, it will say pre-removed to 14 ZA. And it kind of changes. 15 MR. : So because it says pre- 16 removed, there's no reason to note when they 17 were definitively told he wasn't coming back? 18 MR. : Yeah. This just means he 19 went to court. Right? So you have three going 20 out. Meaning you're off on count. 21 MR. : Mm-hm. 22 MR. : It could be in the Eastern 23 District - whatever. If you do come back, they 24 put you back on. 25 MR. : But only if you come EFTA00110923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 back. Otherwise, they won't name you again. 2 MR. : So this isn't definite. 3 MR. : It's indefinite? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : All right. 6 MR. : I mean no this is not 7 definite. That means he's possibly - he could 8 come back. Just because it says pre-removed, 9 he'll come back. 10 MR. : But what I'm saying is 11 the fact that he didn't come back. Should have 12 there been another note saying he is now 13 definitely off of our books. 14 MR. : No. You just don't see it on 15 the - you just don't see it. 16 MR. : So just by him not being 17 back on it that just means hey, refer back -. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Hey, refer back to that 20 thing where it said that he was possibly not 21 coming back. 22 MR. : Yep. 23 MR. : There should not be any 24 more notes saying like he's gone. 25 MR. : No. Only think because if EFTA00110924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 I'm evening watch, the only think I'm checking 2 for is the pre-removed to the institution. So 3 these three, hey did they come back today or 4 are they off the count? So there wouldn't be 5 no follow up. 6 MR. : SO there's no additional 7 -? There should have -. There's not another 8 line item that shouldn't be in there saying 9 that wasn't one of the individuals that 10 came back. 11 MR. : No because - because no. 12 MR. : So there's a pre-removed 13 but there's no line for removed. 14 MR. : No. Pre-removed means off the 15 count. He's out the building. Now if he comes 16 back -- 17 MR. : -- and you -? 18 MR. you just put him back in. 19 MR. : Okay. So that's the only 20 notification that should be made - should have 21 been made on the lieutenant's log? 22 MR. : Yeah. This one here? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. And do you EFTA00110925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 mind just putting it like you did that last 2 one. Just a little star next to is. 3 MR. : I've just got a question real 4 quick. 5 MR. : Yes, please do. 6 MR. : This the 4:00 III. count, 7 right? 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : This outcount that you see 10 over here. 11 MR. : For ZD? 12 MR. : For ZA sorry. 13 MR. : ZA? 14 MR. ZA. See that one? Is that 15 one? Who is that one for? Is that for 16 MR. : Outcount. 17 MR. : Who normally gets marked off? 18 On the El that's outcount? 19 MR. : Well. 20 MR. : It means that he's still in 21 the facility? Or the inmates had - leave the 22 facility? 23 MR. : You never usually see an 24 outcount for that one though. I don't know 25 what assignment this is. EFTA00110926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Say that again. 2 MR. : I'm not sure what assignment 3 this is. 4 MR. : You don't know what account? 5 Okay. 6 MR. : Uh. It could have been some 7 type of -. 8 MR. : I was just trying to figure 9 out if they were still counting him as hey, 10 there's a possibility of him coming back. 11 They've left him as outcount. And eventually, 12 after evening they removed him from outcount. 13 MR. : No. So the outcount - oh I 14 know what you're saying now. You're trying to 15 say you mean who is the one that they have at 16 attorney conference. 17 MR. : See attorney conference we 18 know. That's -. 19 MR. : Yeah. That's the same thing. 20 MR. : That's the same thing? 21 MR. : Yeah. All the numbers is 22 repeats for the outcounts. 23 MR. : So you hear what he's 24 saying? 25 MR. : Yeah. Okay. EFTA00110927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Ten, one, two. That 2 equals 13. One, one. Three plus one plus 13 3 plus two equals 19. 4 MR. : Got it. So at this point, 5 is completely off the count. 6 MR. : Yeah. 4:00. Yeah. He was 7 off at this time. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : But the thing is he could 10 come back. 11 MR. : Got it. 12 MR. : That's why I'm saying that 13 I know you're saying that hey, should he have. 14 I can't say that. 15 MR. : So you're not like upset 16 at the fact that like he didn't notify you and 17 then you could have notified the captain. You 18 don't think that that would have been what he 19 should have done? 20 MR. : I mean yeah, that's 21 definitely helpful. And it would have been 22 appreciated. But to say that you know he's in 23 the wrong for not doing it and stuff like that. 24 I can't say that. 25 MR. : Okay. And he didn't EFTA00110928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 notify you? 2 MR. : No. Not that I recall. 3 MR. : Okay. All right. So 4 we're going to move on from that. You can give 5 that back or you can hold onto it. Whatever 6 you want to do. Do you know about any cameras 7 in the MCC SHU that were not working on August 8 9th or 10th? 9 MR. : No. That they wasn't 10 working? 11 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : Have you - did you ever - 14 were you made aware of that after August 9th? 15 Any cameras were not working? 16 MR. : I heard something about when 17 they was like checking videos and stuff. 18 MR. : What did you hear about 19 it? 20 MR. : That some of them was showing 21 grainy. 22 MR. : And who would have been 23 responsible for making sure the cameras were 24 working? 25 MR. : Mm. The facilities. EFTA00110929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Who from facilities 2 should we speak with? 3 MR. : I'm not sure. 4 MR. : Who worked in facilities? 5 MR. : Whoever they manager is. 6 Facilities manager. 7 MR. : Do you know who that 8 person was back in August? 9 MR. '19. 10 MR. : Or does 11 MR. : It probably was vacant. 12 MR. : Vacant. Was there a 13 14 MR. , he was there. 15 MR. : Did he send - was he a 16 supervisor? 17 MR. : He's not a supervisor. 18 MR. : No? 19 MR. : He's a com tech though. He's 20 com tech. 21 MR. : Would he be somebody that 22 would be good to speak with on that? 23 MR. : Yeah. Probably. 24 MR. : All right. Were you 25 aware though that prior to that time that they EFTA00110930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 weren't working? 2 MR. : The cameras? No. 3 MR. : No? Okay. Who is BOP 4 employee 5 MR. : I know him. 6 MR. : Do you know what his 7 position was in August of 2019? 8 MR. : He would have been manager. 9 MR. : What does that role 10 entail? What is - his duties and 11 responsibilities? 12 MR. : He's a supervisor of a unit 13 team. 14 MR. : What unit team at the 15 time? Do you know? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. 17 MR. : Did you have any 18 communication with regard to Epstein with 19 20 MR. : Like what? 21 MR. : Just with him being 22 housed within the SHU. 23 MR. : I probably talked to him 24 about something but I don't recall nothing 25 specific. EFTA00110931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : No communication like that. 3 I don't know. 4 MR. : Did you ever provide him 5 with any kind of special instructions with 6 regard to Epstein? 7 MR. : Not that I recall. 8 MR. : No? What about -? Did 9 you ever communicate with regarding 10 rounds being conducted in the SHU or Epstein 11 needing a cellmate? 12 MR. : Not that I recall. 13 MR. : Are you aware that 14 allowed Epstein to make a telephone 15 call on the evening of August 9, 2019? 16 MR. : Mm. I think I heard 17 something about that. I don't know was i- 18 though. 19 MR. : No? 20 MR. : I just heard something. I 21 think he made a phone call though. 22 MR. : All right. So do you 23 know anything about involved with that 24 phone call? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00110932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 MR. : All right. What is your 2 understanding of the phone call that took place 3 on August 9th with Epstein's telephone call? 4 MR. : It was a regular phone call. 5 MR. : Did you hear that it was 6 made in the shower area? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Have you ever heard of 9 telephone calls being made in the shower area? 10 MR. : In the shower area? Yeah. 11 MR. : And what's the purpose of 12 that? 13 MR. : The cord can't reach. And 14 I'll say we got him out taking a shower - hey 15 I'm going to give you a phone right now while 16 I'm - while you're right there. I don't have 17 to pull you out and it's like a time consuming 18 method. 19 MR. : Do you know if the line 20 that they would be using in that area would be 21 recorded line or a legal line? 22 MR. : It's two. There's two. 23 MR. : Okay. So would there be 24 any reason to provide someone with a legal line 25 that's not recorded? EFTA00110933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : So -. 3 MR. : Would there a be a reason? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : So why if they provided 7 Epstein a phone call in the shower area for a 8 legal line, would that be wrong? 9 MR. : You mean an unmonitored line? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : If they gave him an 12 unmonitored line? 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : Yeah. Unless you didn't know 15 which one it is. 16 MR. : And if they did know that 17 they gave him a legal line, that was an 18 unmonitored line, should someone have monitored 19 that call? 20 MR. : You can't though. You said 21 it was unmonitored. 22 MR. : No I mean like sit here 23 and listen to the call. 24 MR. : Oh you mean like - I mean 25 they do that all the time. I think they could EFTA00110934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 you know they let them call their legal 2 attorneys. And yeah, they do that. 3 MR. : Okay. And if they didn't 4 do that. 5 MR. : I don't know if it's a 6 violation. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : But it's not common. 9 MR. : Yeah. So let's say if 10 the captain even authorized it. Yeah, give him 11 his phone call. Just make sure you monitor it 12 and log it. 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : They didn't monitor it. 15 They didn't log it. Would that be a problem? 16 MR. : The captain telling me. 17 Yeah. 18 MR. : All right. Did you ever 19 hear of that practice taking place in the past? 20 MR. : Unmonitored calls? 21 MR. : Yeah. Or like letting 22 somebody in the SHU have a phone call on an 23 unmonitored line, walking away, letting that 24 person talk? 25 MR. : No. Now from an officer's EFTA00110935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 standpoint? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : You never seen that 5 before? Or heard about it? 6 MR. : Officers. No. 7 MR. : Okay. What is the policy 8 for inmates making a calls from the SHU? 9 MR. Mm. I do know they could get 10 - they got to come - there's a (Indiscernible 11 *03:04:12) in SHU that everyone has a line. A 12 compassionate phone line. And they get with 13 the chaplain they can make a phone call. Like 14 say that they might you only get one call every 15 30 days. So chaplain say hey, give this guy a 16 call. They come up. They bring him. They let 17 him use the compassionate phone. 18 MR. : And when you say -. 19 MR. : And that's about it. 20 MR. : What's a compassionate 21 phone? 22 MR. : Yeah. It's like something 23 they have a death in the family or something 24 like that. 25 MR. : But is that a monitored EFTA00110936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 call? 2 MR. : I don't think so. But I mean 3 staff would stay with him. It's monitored 4 yeah. It's monitored. 5 MR. : So anybody in the staff. 6 It's either a monitored line or staff is with 7 them? Is that correct? 8 MR. : If it's monitored in the SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So when I say monitored, 12 I mean it's either a recorded line -. 13 MR. : Or you right there. 14 MR. : -- or you're right there. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : And what are the reasons 17 why you would give him an unrecorded line? Or 18 a non-recorded line? 19 MR. : Mm. I mean probably like an 20 emergency or something. 21 MR. : So for him -? 22 MR. : Definitely yeah. So like the 23 chaplain ain't the hey, you know, okay. 24 MR. : But if it was in the 25 shower area, they would actually have the EFTA00110937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 1 ability to do either a recorded line or a non- 2 recorded line? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : They're right next to 5 each other? 6 MR. : It's a jack. Yeah. 7 MR. : Yeah. Okay. What about 8 - what's the MCC policy on conducting searches 9 in the SHU? Cell searches. 10 MR. : You have to search the cell. 11 MR. : Do you know about them 12 not conducting cell searches? 13 MR. : Staff not conducting? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Like what? 16 MR. : Like for instance here's 17 cell search from 9 South or the SHU on August 18 9th. It's one cell search. It was conducted 19 at 12:36 p.m. during the day by It's 20 the only cell search that was conducted on 21 August 9th. 22 MR. : Hm. 23 MR. : Is that weird for you? 24 That you would see only one cell search 25 conducted on a day? EFTA00110938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 MR. : Meh. 2 MR. : Are they supposed to 3 conduct more than one cell search? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : How many are they 6 supposed to conduct? 7 MR. : Five. 8 MR. : And is it at least five 9 on night watch? And during the day watch -? 10 MR. : Per shift. 11 MR. : What's that? 12 MR. : Per shift. 13 MR. : Per shift? Everyone's 14 supposed to do five? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Is that including the 17 morning watch? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : So day watch and -? 20 MR. : Do area searches on morning 21 watch. 22 MR. : So your understanding is 23 that on day watch and on night watch it's 24 supposed to be five per shift? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 MR. : And are you aware if they 2 weren't doing that? 3 MR. : Mm. 4 MR. : Or is this what you were 5 saying before? An abnormal day? 6 MR. : I mean I don't know. I 7 wasn't aware that they wasn't doing it. No. 8 MR. : Okay. Um and is there 9 any responsibility of the ops or activities' 10 lieutenant overseeing to make sure that these 11 cell searches are being conducted? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : There is? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what is that 16 responsibility? 17 MR. : I mean pretty much we check 18 every 30 days. They've got to be done. Every 19 cell supposed to eb searched every 30 days. So 20 21 MR. : Every cell in there is 22 supposed to be searched every 30 days? 23 MR. : The whole unit yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. And that's where 25 the ops lieutenant and activities' lieutenant EFTA00110940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 come in? 2 MR. : Any lieutenant. 3 MR. : Any lieutenant. 4 MR. : It's everybody's 5 responsibility. 6 MR. : So I guess what I'm 7 asking is on August 9th there's no SHU 8 lieutenant in there. As the activities' 9 lieutenant or the ops lieutenant on any of the 10 watches. Should have they been like making 11 sure that they were doing their job? 12 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 13 MR. : You're not sure? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Because I mean that's in 16 TruScope. It's like you're not checking 17 TruScope at that time 18 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 19 MR. anyways. You know. 20 MR. : And during your rounds 21 MR. : And on top of that I think 22 the cells - the cameras probably show the cells 23 being checked. I'm quite sure. They just 24 didn't log them. 25 MR. : All right. So you think EFTA00110941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 that they're actually searching them? 2 MR. : They got to. 3 MR. : And not locking it? 4 MR. : You got to hey, get out. 5 You're doing a feed and cuff up, showers, you 6 come out and yeah. So they not locked. 7 MR. : But would it be 8 surprising to you to hear that there was a lot 9 of extra linens and clothing and all that kind 10 of stuff in the SHU? 11 MR. : That's not surprising. 12 MR. : So if they're doing cell 13 searches, wouldn't they take that stuff out and 14 keep them with the -? 15 MR. : I suppose so. Yeah. 16 MR. : All right. But you 17 believe that they were actually conducting the 18 cell searches? 19 MR. : I'm quite sure. More than 20 one was conducted. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : SO you think it was just 24 - this is all they logged but they probably did 25 more? EFTA00110942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. All right. Do you 3 know anything about Epstein being authorized to 4 have pills in his cell in the SHU? 5 MR. : Pillows? 6 MR. : No. Pills. 7 MR. : Nah. 8 MR. : Pills. Like medication. 9 MR. : Nah. 10 MR. : Should have he been 11 allowed medication in his cell? 12 MR. : I mean inmates have 13 medication? 14 MR. : They do? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : So in the SHU they're 17 allowed to have medication? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Is there ever a problem 20 with like OD-ing or anything like that? 21 MR. : I mean if it's - depending on 22 the medication, medical gives it to them. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Some have self-carrying 25 medicines. EFTA00110943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 MR. : All right. And so that - 2 and that's not abnormal for them to have their 3 own pill bottles and things like that in the 4 SHU? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : What can an inmate have 7 in their cell in the SHU? 8 MR. : T-shirt, boxes, washcloth, a 9 towel, depending on what season too. Blankets, 10 two sheets. 11 MR. : So they can have tow 12 blankets and two sheets? 13 MR. : Depending on the weather. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And how much is available. 16 MR. : What about in August? 17 How many blankets and sheets could have they 18 had? 19 MR. : How many they could have? 20 MR. : Or are they allowed to 21 have? 22 MR. : Uh. It depends. Some of 23 them -. It depends. It they say hey, let them 24 keep it, two and two, let them keep it. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00110944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 MR. : I say hey, you need to - you 2 know. They go down to one. 3 MR. : Would it be ever 4 authorized to have more than two of each? 5 MR. : How many? Like an extra 6 blanket or something? 7 MR. : Yeah. Like if three 8 blankets or four blankets. 9 MR. : I don't know about four, but 10 an extra blanket I heard that especially in the 11 wintertime depending on the cells. 12 MR. : What about in August? 13 MR. : An extra blanket? 14 MR. : Or extra linens. 15 MR. : Nah. 16 MR. : Yeah. What about extra 17 clothing? 18 MR. : I mean it wouldn't be 19 authorized but they could get it. 20 MR. : How could they get it? 21 MR. : They could get it. They 22 could fish it themselves - inmates. 23 MR. : You mean they can like 24 throw a cord over ... over like the -? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r 1 MR. : They do that? 2 MR. : Yeah. They fish. 3 MR. : All right. And would 4 that be caught on the cell search if they were 5 being conducted though? 6 MR. : Not all the time. 7 MR. : No? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : And how would they miss 10 that? 11 MR. : What if I don't search that 12 cell today? 13 MR. : No I'm saying during the 14 cell searches. Like if they search their cell. 15 MR. : If they see the fishing line? 16 Yeah. 17 MR. : No-no-no. Not if they 18 see a fishing line. But if a cell is being 19 searched -- 20 MR. : And it has excessive linen? 21 MR. : And it has - would they 22 take it at that point? 23 MR. : Yeah. Usually they take it. 24 Yeah. 25 MR. : Okay. Anything else EFTA00110946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 they're allowed to have? 2 MR. : Books. Food. Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. Do you know 4 if Epstein was given any special privileges to 5 have extra clothing or extra linens? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : No? Do you know if he 8 had extra clothing or extra linens? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Who was making sure that 11 Epstein had the correct amount of clothing and 12 linens? 13 MR. : Not sure. 14 MR. : Would it be like the SHU 15 staff or the lieutenant or all of the above? 16 The SHU lieutenant? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. 18 MR. : Working in the SHU 19 though, or previously, you don't know who would 20 -? 21 MR. : Who is monitoring it? I 22 mean. 23 MR. : Like who would be - who's 24 responsible? Not let - sounds like - looks 25 like no one was monitoring it but who was EFTA00110947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 1 actually responsible to make sure him and these 2 guys aren't supposed to have that many - that 3 much clothing or linen. 4 MR. : I'm not sure. Because when 5 we used to do linen, you give me three, I give 6 you three. That's how we used to monitor it. 7 MR. : Yes. It's supposed to be 8 like a one-for-one exchange. 9 MR. : Yeah. So I don't know who's 10 responsible to keep an eye on his things 11 though. I uh 12 MR. : Typically who provides 13 inmates with their linens? 14 MR. : Staff. 15 MR. : Do lieutenants ever do 16 that? 17 MR. : No. Not really. 18 MR. : So it would be the staff 19 that's responsible then huh? 20 MR. : Yeah. That's why I say 21 (Indiscernible *03:12:15) responsibility I 22 guess then. 23 MR. : Okay. Does the SHU 24 lieutenant ever do it? 25 MR. : I mean, it could. I could if EFTA00110948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 I want to. 2 MR. : Yeah. But typically it 3 would be the SHU staff? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. Any idea how 6 Epstein's interactions were with other inmates? 7 Did he ever have interactions with other 8 inmates really? 9 MR. : I don't know. I know when he 10 first got there, he told me some guy he was 11 nervous because his face was on the TV. And 12 guys might be trying to intimidate him. That's 13 about it though. 14 MR. : That was something he - 15 Epstein specifically told you? 16 MR. : He told the officer and then 17 the officer told me. He said, hey I didn't 18 know who he was. I was like alright. Let me 19 look into it. And then they moved him. 20 MR. : Where was he? 21 MR. : He was on - his first unit 22 think was 11 North. 23 MR. : So was he then in general 24 population? 25 MR. : When he first came here, he EFTA00110949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 was general population. 2 MR. : All right. So people 3 that tell us that he was in the SHU the entire 4 time are incorrect? 5 MR. : When he first got through, he 6 was in general population. 7 MR. : And for how long was he 8 in general population? 9 MR. : Say about a day or two. 10 MR. : And are you the one that 11 actually moved him into the SHU? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : Who did that? 14 MR. : I don't know. 15 MR. : All right. But an 16 officer reported it to you? And then you 17 MR. : Yeah. I know he was in 18 general population. 19 MR. : And what did you do with 20 the information when that was told? 21 MR. : What? 22 MR. : You said an officer said 23 he's worried about safety. 24 MR. : Yeah. I spoke to him. 25 MR. : You spoke to Epstein? EFTA00110950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 MR. : I wanted to know I said 2 what's going on. I said alright, we going to 3 look into this. And then they moved him. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : But I guess my question 7 was did you report that information to someone? 8 And then it was - a person? 9 MR. : I don't remember. I know I 10 passed it on. I said hey, this guy, I think 11 he's high profile. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Look into it I think by the 14 captain or someone got together and they moved 15 him. Put him in place in the SHU. 16 MR. : Okay. And when was the 17 last time you interacted with Epstein? 18 MR. : I can't recall. 19 MR. : Did you have any 20 interactions with him on August 9th? 21 MR. : I could have. I don't know. 22 He's right there on the floor. So I could 23 have. 24 MR. : But you don't know. So 25 again, dude dies the next day. You can't EFTA00110951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 remember if the day before you talked with this 2 guy when it's like the biggest case ever? 3 MR. : yeah. 4 MR. : You don't remember? 5 MR. : Uh-huh. `Cause I brung him 6 up to SHU a few times. But I don't know if I 7 did that day. 8 MR. : I'm just saying that kind 9 of sparks a little suspicion if -- 10 MR. : I know what you're saying. 11 MR. : -- it's like - if it's 12 like you can't even remember the last - if you 13 talked to him on that day - the day before. 14 MR. : I mean it's a big case. 15 get that. But I mean, you know, I have a job 16 like you know? 17 MR. : Yeah-yeah. I mean, I'm 18 just saying that that's going to create a 19 little -. 20 MR. : Yeah but I cannot remember if 21 I spoke to that dude that day. 22 MR. : Do you remember when was 23 the last time you saw him? 24 MR. : No. I'm probably assuming 25 that day. If he was in attorney conference. EFTA00110952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 MR. : Um. And is that because 2 you would have visited attorney conference? 3 MR. : Yeah. The elevator is right 4 there. I'm on the third floor here. Attorney 5 conference is there. If I wait right here in 6 the elevator, I see him. He's in the same room 7 every day. 8 MR. : But you can't remember if 9 you actually spoke with him on that day? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Would you typically speak 12 with him when he was in attorney conference? 13 MR. : The only time I used to speak 14 to him is if they say hey, you can bring this. 15 Hey, you going to SHU? Can you take him up? 16 All right. Come on. 17 MR. : All right. 18 MR. : Can I ask a question on that? 19 MR. : Yes. Please do. 20 MR. : Just in case, I mean I know 21 you said you don't remember, but that's his 22 last day. That's the last time you saw him. 23 Do you remember who he was with that day? 24 MR. : His lawyers. 25 MR. : Do you remember his demeanor? EFTA00110953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 MR. : Mm. 2 MR. : Was he upset? Was he 3 yelling? Did he complain about anything? 4 MR. : He used to sleep a lot. 5 That's all I know. Sometimes you see him in 6 there, he's just laying on the table. His 7 lawyer is right there. 8 MR. : While he's with his 9 attorneys? 10 MR. : He was there -. He used to 11 be there from 8 from in the morning time all 12 the way to day watch and evening watch. 13 MR. : Around what time would he 14 show up there? 15 MR. : Early. He'd be the first one 16 there. 17 MR. : And what time would that 18 be? 19 MR. : 8:00, 8:30. 20 MR. : And then what time would 21 he typically go back to the SHU? 22 MR. : Before - or attorney 23 conference over at 8:00. So about 8:00. 24 MR. : So basically 8:00 a.m. to 25 8:00 p.m.? And who were the people that would EFTA00110954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 take him to attorney conference and then take 2 him back to the SHU? 3 MR. : I told you. Like I said, 4 I've done it sometimes. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : But typically, hey get the 7 guy ready in SHU. Bring him down. If R&D's 8 out there, hey we got to move him. You know. 9 I'll take him down. 10 MR. : Mm-hm. 11 MR. : Whoever's going that way. 12 MR. : Did you take him either 13 there to attorney conference or back to the SHU 14 on August 9th? 15 MR. : I don't think so. I can't 16 recall. 17 MR. : Were you still at the MCC 18 at around 8:00 p.m. on August 9th? 19 MR. : No. I wasn't there at 8:00. 20 MR. : And what time do you 21 believe that you left MCC on August 9th? 22 MR. : Uh between 2:00 and 4:00. 23 MR. : Sometime between 2:00 and 24 4:00. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 MR. : But you weren't back? So 2 he was in attorney conference all that time. 3 So the last time you possibly could have 4 interacted with him would have been around 8:00 5 a.m. Correct? 6 MR. : I mean interacting like 7 talking to him? 8 MR. : Speaking with him. 9 MR. : Yeah. But I don't think I 10 I can't recall if I spoke -. I don't think I 11 spoke to him. But -- 12 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 13 MR. : I'm not sure if I did or I 14 didn't. 15 MR. : Okay. But -. 16 MR. : The last time would have been 17 I mean -. Yeah. If I stepped into attorney 18 conference and said something. But 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : I don't recall that. 21 MR. : But you don't recall what 22 his demeanor was? Or state of mind? 23 MR. : That day? 24 MR. : Yeah. Um you just 25 mentioned the one thing where he was worried EFTA00110956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 because his - you know -. 2 MR. : Yeah. The first day he got 3 here. 4 MR. : He told an officer. 5 MR. : He's saying hey, uh officer, 6 hey there's this guy up here. His face is - 7 well we get those calls all the time. 8 MR. : Do you know of any other 9 complaints that he made? Did he ever complain 10 to you or you get any other information about 11 it? 12 MR. : While he was planning on 13 getting off of suicide watch. That's about it. 14 MR. : Okay. And was he making 15 those complaints to you about getting off of 16 suicide watch? 17 MR. : He was just saying hey, why 18 you guys got me like -. I'm like well you talk 19 to psych and then they'll talk to you and they 20 spoke to him and he went back up. 21 MR. : And what was this 22 complaint about? About being -? 23 MR. : He was saying why he was on 24 there yeah. He wanted his clothes and you 25 know. EFTA00110957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 MR. : So he didn't want to be 2 on suicide watch? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : Is that what you're 5 saying? 6 MR. : No. He didn't want to. 7 MR. : So he wanted to go back 8 to the SHU? 9 MR. : Well he wanted to go -. 10 Yeah. 11 MR. : Do you know if he wanted 12 to be on the SHU? Or did he want to be in a 13 different area? 14 MR. : I don't know. 15 MR. : Did he ever tell that to 16 you? 17 MR. : No. Not to me. 18 MR. : Do you ever -? Do you 19 believe that he was in the correct place in the 20 SHU? Or do you believe he should have been on 21 like 10 South or G Tier? 22 MR. : I mean he can't be in G Tier. 23 Can't be in 10 South. He got to have a Bunkie, 24 right? 25 MR. : Well. I guess. It EFTA00110958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 depends on Do you know what the reason why 2 he would need a Bunkie? 3 MR. : His suicide attempt. 4 Hotlist. 5 MR. : Do you ever put people 6 that are suicide attempts or hotlist in G Tier 7 or 10 South, so they have extra eyes on them? 8 MR. : Mm. I don't think. No one 9 in 10 South is on the hotlist. I don't recall. 10 MR. : What about G Tier? 11 What's their -? Who? What's the deal with G 12 Tier? Like who goes 13 MR. : Single cells. 14 MR. : -- in there? 15 MR. : Single cells. 16 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But they 17 have cameras in there, right? Every one of 18 them gets - just like 10 South - but -? 19 MR. : Yeah but uh 9 South some of 20 the - some cameras in some of those. Psych 21 cells. 22 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 23 should have been in a cell with a camera in it? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00110959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 MR. : I mean yeah, if you have to 2 have two. The ones with the cameras is single 3 cell. You can't go there. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 5 MR. : You know? 6 MR. : So you believe he should 7 have had a cellmate and he should have been in 8 the regular SHU? Because we've had other 9 people say should have been on G tier. Should 10 have been on 10 South. But you believe 11 MR. : People are saying - I mean - 12 if you try to commit - like you just showed me 13 the memo. Right? So either he needs an extra 14 set of eyes on him and then the - that's even 15 worse. I'm going to put you in there by 16 yourself? You saying? For an extended time? 17 MR. : I guess but so people are 18 saying because officers are watching those 19 people at all times. Is that -? Are they 20 watching them at all times? 21 MR. : How? 22 MR. : On the cameras I don't 23 know. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : SO they're not actually EFTA00110960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 being monitored? 2 MR. : They can't watch. No one can 3 watch someone all the time. No. 4 MR. : Okay. So you think that 5 it would have been just as risky or if not more 6 risky with him being in G Tier or 10 South? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. Do 9 you know why Epstein was in prison? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Why? 12 MR. : Uh underage trafficking. 13 Child molestation. Charges like that. 14 MR. : And did you have any 15 specific feelings regarding why he was in 16 prison? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : How often would you speak 19 with Epstein? 20 MR. Uh whenever I needed to. 21 MR. : All right. Any kind of 22 conversation that had any substance to it? 23 Like a substantive conversation? Anything that 24 was like more than just like below? 25 MR. : Nah. EFTA00110961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 2 3 4 5 6 MR. : No? and you said you did not work at all on August 10th? MR. : That's the day it happened, right? MR. : Yeah. MR. : I wasn't there. 7 MR. : And then you were 8 definitely gone by then - from the MCC 9 4:00 III. on August 9th? 10 MR. : I think so yeah. I think so. 11 MR. : And you may have been 12 gone as early as 2:00 III. you just can't 13 recall? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : When was your next shift? 16 MR. Mm. That happened on what - 17 Saturday? 18 MR. : Yeah. He was found on a 19 Saturday. 20 MR. : He died on Saturday, right? 21 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 22 MR. : Saturday. I don't know if 23 came in Sunday. I think I came in Sunday. 24 MR. : Okay. And did you at 25 that time did you speak with anybody about EFTA00110962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 Epstein's death? 2 MR. : I mean I knew about it. 3 Everyone was talking about it. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. So what 5 was your understanding about how he died? 6 MR. : He hung himself. 7 MR. : Do you know anything 8 about anyone else taking his life? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : No? Do you know anything 11 about anyone assisting with taking his life? 12 MR. : Nah. 13 MR. : No. Do you believe that 14 Epstein took his own life? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Do you believe that 17 Epstein acted alone in taking his own life? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : All right. Then there's 20 only three more questions here. They're more 21 open-ended. What do you believe would have 22 prevented Epstein from dying? 23 MR. : Nothing. 24 MR. : Nothing? Do you think 25 that if he was - wanted to take his life he EFTA00110963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 would have done it? 2 MR. : If it was a regular inmate, I 3 don't even think we would be - you know. 4 MR. : Um what are some of the 5 systematic problems inside the MCC? And 6 specifically the SHU that allowed for Epstein 7 to die? 8 MR. Mm. Systematic problems. 9 MR. : You know like -. 10 MR. : It sound like a union 11 question or something like that. 12 MR. : Well no it because like I 13 told you, we're trying to look into like. Hey 14 man, you're right. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : If another inmate died, 17 we're probably not going to be here talking to 18 you. But this is high-profile. We now need to 19 figure out what went wrong here. How do we fix 20 it? So in your opinion, what went wrong here? 21 MR. : I mean. 22 MR. : And how do we fix it? 23 We're from the government. We're here to help. 24 MR. : Yeah. My opinion, the whole 25 cellmate leaving. That's not on nobody. I'm EFTA00110964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 not. If I have the notice he had up until that 2 time and left for one day. Then this happens. 3 I can't blame lieutenant, staff, notifications. 4 You know. Remember there's like 900 inmates in 5 there. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : I know he's high-profile, but 8 we also have to monitor other inmates. The 9 round situation. If that's true. That could 10 have been a little bit you know You've got 11 to make rounds in SHU. 12 MR. : Counts too though, right? 13 MR. : You've got to make rounds and 14 counts. 15 MR. : Now going back to there. 16 You say it's not on anybody. But if he's - 17 psychology is saying he's required to have a 18 cellmate. It's got to be on somebody. Right? 19 If he's on the hotlist. He's in SHU where he's 20 supposed to have a cellmate anyway. And 21 psychology is saying he's got to have a 22 cellmate. It's got to fall to somebody to make 23 sure. Hey, who is supposed to make sure this 24 guy has got a cellmate? His cellmate is gone. 25 He doesn't have a cell mate. EFTA00110965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : Because -. 3 MR. : So if I know. If I get the 4 notice by 8:00. Right? So I'm evening watch 5 ops. I get the notice. Hey, this guy doesn't 6 have a cellmate. All right. What's my call? 7 I just throw him in there with anybody? 8 MR. : My thought - and from 9 talking to other people - are supposed to be 10 that SHU staff should have notified the ops 11 lieutenant or the activities' lieutenant. Who 12 then should have notified the captain? 13 MR. : Yeah. At 8:00. I could see 14 that. But at that time on day watch, hm-mm. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 16 MR. : It's a judgment call. 17 MR. : And I'm not talking about 18 at 8:00 a.m. I'm saying like what you just 19 said -- 20 MR. : I want to say we can't 21 (Indiscernible *03:24:48) notice. 22 MR. : -- you don't think that 23 the cellmate thing should be on anybody. Well 24 but it's like it's got to be on somebody. If 25 he's required to have a cellmate, somebody's EFTA00110966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 got to make sure he's got a cellmate. 2 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but what if I 3 don't -. Remember these guys don't even - the 4 guys on evening watch wasn't even sure it was 5 right. It was overtime. I know 6 MR. : Well no, I'm not talking 7 8 MR. : I think worked -. 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm 10 talking it was 11 MR. : But if I'm the OIC. 12 MR. : I think and 13 MR. : He wasn't even in custody at 14 that time no more. 15 MR. : All right. So but you 16 got -. who -- 17 MR. : Mm-hm. 18 MR. : -- that's her quarterly 19 post. 20 MR. : She did a double that day, 21 right? 22 MR. : Well she - but yea but at 23 8:00 p.m. that was her first shift, right? 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : So we're talking - we're EFTA00110967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 1 not now talking about morning watch. We're 2 talking about - you're saying 8:00 p.m., right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : So that's evening watch. 5 So we're looking at -. Where are we looking 6 at? 7 MR. : So if I know - if I'm 8 notified by 8:00. And I call the captain. Say 9 hey, this guy don't -. What's my next move 10 then? Throw him in there with anybody? Or 11 MR. : Yeah, so we have 12 , and 13 MR. : Mm-hm. 14 MR. : So yeah, I guess-. 15 MR. : I mean I can see them saying 16 - whoever said that. Because they say hey, 17 kick it up. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : You know. Kick it up. Kick 20 the blame up top. Now if I'm on, what do you 21 want me to do? Throw the guy in there with 22 anybody? Just because he have to have a 23 cellmate? 24 MR. : Well some people have 25 said that at the very least they would have put EFTA00110968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 him on like a dry cell type of a situation 2 where you've got a staff member on him until he 3 can get placed with a cellmate. 4 MR. : Yeah. But that's a 5 questionable move too. 6 MR. : Um. 7 MR. : You want me to take him and 8 put him on - you know? 9 MR. : So you believe - so i 10 guess. What is your belief then? 11 MR. : I mean there was a time and 12 opportunity. Guy wanted to take his life. The 13 inmate left. He saw the time and opportunity. 14 He did it. The officers - you know. 15 MR. : But don't -? 16 MR. : Uh yeah. 17 MR. -- do you believe though 18 as a correctional officer it's the 19 responsibility to ensure that we ensure that 20 they don't die in our custody? 21 MR. : Well that's what the rounds 22 is for. That's why it's so important. 23 MR. : All right. So that's why 24 you think it's really the rounds and the 25 counts. Not necessarily the cellmate but the EFTA00110969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 rounds and the counts. 2 MR. : Well in SHU, you required to 3 do it. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : You have to do it. It's for 6 the inmate. 7 MR. : And if they're not doing 8 the rounds - the 30-minute rounds - that's 9 really the blame here? 10 MR. : That's a bad situation. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : It's a bad situation. 13 MR. : So you blame it on the 14 rounds way more than you would blame it on the 15 cellmate? 16 MR. : That's it. The cellmate, he 17 ain't here. Yeah. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : You know I mean that 20 happened. It's the same thing. I understand 21 they sent out the notification. There's no 22 timeframe on that. 23 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 24 MR. : Is an inmate goes hey, you 25 know, by the way, this guy was on - you sent EFTA00110970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 this out a month ago. He's not suicidal no 2 more. He said it. It's like you know. 3 MR. : Well in this case I think 4 it was like 9 days. But yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah. But there's still no 6 timeframe. Some guys say they suicidal just to 7 get out of SHU and play the game. Go back in. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : But it's never saying hey 10 this guy is not. There's no memo saying he 11 does need a cellmate. 12 MR. : Would you agree though 13 that it's both? The fact that he was required 14 to have a cellmate and they weren't conducting 15 rounds? 16 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 17 MR. : And that's where - when I 18 talk about the problems. 19 MR. : The thing is, that happened, 20 but it's - that can happen. Hey oh. His 21 Bunkie left. I didn't put a cellmate. That 22 can happen. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : You know. That can happen 25 here. EFTA00110971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : You get inmates that was 3 crying on level two. Hey, got to have a 4 cellmate. You moved him? Yeah. Oh you ain't 5 check? Oh you know. 6 MR. : Yeah. So I think what I 7 understand you saying is that the primary issue 8 is not doing rounds. Secondary and a much 9 lesser issue was that they didn't fill up his 10 cellmate. Is that correct? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Okay. And are there any 13 other problems or violations occurring inside 14 the MCC that we should be made aware of? 15 MR. : Mm. 16 MR. : We're talking about the 17 MCC. 18 MR. : Violations? 19 MR. : Anything that we should 20 have known about that you think needs to be 21 fixed. 22 MR. : You got mandated a lot. I 23 know that. You're working. 24 MR. : So there's - is what 25 you're saying then that they're severely EFTA00110972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 understaffed? 2 MR. : They was. I don't know how 3 it is now. Buy they was. 4 MR. : And again when did you 5 leave there? 6 MR. : Uh December '19. 7 MR. : December of 2019? At 8 that point they were still extremely over -? 9 MR. : Extremely. 10 MR. : What about - was there 11 anything that was being fixed ever since when 12 Epstein died and August of 2019. Did you see 13 anything being fixed by that point? 14 MR. : Uh. They did change the log. 15 I know that. 16 MR. : What does that mean? 17 MR. : They started putting inmates 18 that go to court. Just in case. We started 19 doing them and started attaching the PP38 to 20 the log. 21 MR. : So they would almost be 22 part of the outcount? 23 MR. : No. You could see. You 24 could see all the movement. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00110973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 MR. : You know. You could see all 2 the movement. They started single cell memos. 3 Every time I need to know- every night. 4 Because I worked the morning. Every night I 5 need the -. Hey whose up there - single cell? 6 That was an every night thing. We started that 7 um. More rounds. More reiteration of doing 8 your rounds. Um. I know the rounds. They got 9 tighter with the rounds. The log. Mm. It was 10 some things. There were some things. As far 11 as staff, I think they did hire a class like 12 right before. But um. You know. 13 MR. : Now has that just been a 14 constant problem with um with the MCC with 15 being able to like fill -? 16 MR. : I mean that's -. Yeah. 17 That's been a problem for a while. It wasn't 18 like that when I first got there though. 19 MR. : And what is - why do you 20 think it's so hard to keep that place staffed? 21 MR. : Well uh I think they can't 22 compete. It's the pay. They're not competing 23 with other agencies. It's a tough job. 24 Working there is tough. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 MR. : It's not easy. I'll tell you 2 that. 3 MR. : What it makes it so 4 tough? 5 MR. : You've got some unruly 6 inmates. 7 MR. : Yep. 8 MR. : You got a lot of unruly 9 inmates. You doing some long hours. 10 MR. : Are they doing long hours 11 though because it's understaffed? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : And that's what I mean. 14 So it sounds to me, I mean an outsider's 15 perspective. Is that they need a lot more 16 employees. 17 MR. : No. They need that 18 definitely more employees. 19 MR. : Is there a way for us to 20 not only get employees but get good employees? 21 What would be a solution there? 22 MR. : I mean you got to recruit. 23 You got to take people that really want to do 24 the job. 25 MR. : Um. EFTA00110975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 MR. : I mean it takes some people 2 that. You know. Say hey, you can make this 3 your first year. Just going to put some work 4 in it. You've got people that want it. You 5 know. That wants the money. 6 MR. : You think that it means 7 they should have like a higher pay at the MCC? 8 And the MDC? 9 MR. : Higher pay or you look for 10 people that are looking for opportunity. You 11 know. 12 MR. : Like as in make it like a 13 rotating place? You have to do a certain 14 amount of time there and then you can go to 15 like your choice location afterwards? 16 MR. : I mean. 17 MR. : What do you mean by 18 opportunity? I guess I should say. 19 MR. : Like I don't know. I know 20 the - I think it's a college requirement or 21 credit something like that. Is it? I don't 22 know. I'm not sure. 23 MR. : I have -. We've 24 definitely talked to people that don't have 25 bachelor's degrees. EFTA00110976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 283 1 MR. : Yeah. But I think they have 2 um credits. I think they change it for 3 credits. 4 MR. : Yeah. Some people have 5 said some college. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : That we've talked to that 8 they don't have -. 9 MR. : I think -. 10 MR. : I don't think I've talked 11 to anybody that said they didn't have any 12 college. But I mean I think it was like a 13 couple credits. You know. 14 MR. : Yeah. But I mean some people 15 without college, it's one opportunity to say 16 hey, you can make $60,000 your first year. I 17 just need you to show up and work. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Follow the rules. You know. 20 And the credit check I think was getting a lot 21 of people. 22 MR. : Is that right? 23 MR. : Yeah. Credit checks. I 24 think that's what weeds out a lot of people. 25 MR. : Now do you believe though EFTA00110977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 - on that note - if we're not doing credit 2 checks, we're letting that slide. Wouldn't 3 that breed a potential problem with 4 introduction of contraband and being paid you 5 know for brining things in? 6 MR. : Bribery and stuff? 7 MR. : Yeah. Because that's a 8 big problem in the BOP. 9 MR. : Yeah. But I think that's -. 10 I mean you've got some people in there I mean. 11 That don't work. That don't. no. you could 12 be. I seen people get arrested with good 13 credit. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Six figures - making six 16 figures and do some corrupt stuff. 17 MR. : Right-right. 18 MR. : So. That's not it. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : I'm not saying take everyone. 21 But you know. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : It's like if you renting to 24 somebody and you a landlord. And you say 25 alright, I know you ain't got the top score, EFTA00110978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 but I see you pay your bills on time. You had 2 a little student loan debt here or whatever. 3 I'll give you a shot. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : You know. 6 MR. : What have you got? 7 MR. : You mentioned that you saw 8 Epstein in the conference room. 9 MR. : Attorney conference. Yeah. 10 MR. : And sometimes he was 11 sleeping. 12 MR. : It looked like he was 13 sleeping. He would lay down on the table like 14 that. 15 MR. : Is that normal for inmates to 16 be sleep in the conference room? 17 MR. : To sleep? No. that's not 18 normal. Most guys is trying to get out. Saying 19 hey, you need to do this and do that. 20 MR. : Did anyone ever tell him to 21 wake up or address it? 22 MR. : I don't think so. 23 MR. : The reason I ask is like was 24 that a privilege that was allowed to Epstein? 25 To do that? EFTA00110979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 MR. : No. It wasn't a privilege. 2 I think the being that he was there from early 3 in the morning to whatever time. The lawyers 4 probably like alright, let's look over this. 5 And he probably laying, and I'll wait until 6 y'all finished. And then alright, let's go. 7 But he also gets to buy out the vending machine 8 too. At first. 9 MR. : The vending machine? 10 MR. : Yeah. He used to get all his 11 snacks. 12 MR. : Yeah. Because you weren't 13 allowed to give him food in there right? 14 MR. : In the SHU? You got food. 15 MR. : Not in SHU. 16 MR. : In attorney -. 17 MR. : Attorney conference. i 18 was told that he basically had to get his own 19 food from the vending machines. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Was he allowed -? Would 22 people feed him - the BOP food - when he was in 23 attorney conference? Would they bring him a 24 tray? 25 MR. : Mm. No. I don't think so. EFTA00110980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 I don't even think he even ate that. I'm not 2 sure. I don't even know if he even ate the BOP 3 food. He probably just ate commissary. 4 MR. : Oh so there's a 5 commissary he could go to? 6 MR. : Sure. You could go to 7 commissary in SHU. 8 MR. : No. I'm talking about 9 because 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. he was always 10 with attorney conference. 11 MR. : Yeah. So he used to get 12 drinks and chips - snack food. 13 MR. : And that's what he would 14 just eat all day? 15 MR. : I don't know about all day. 16 But I know you know he'll have a - hey, make 17 sure when the lawyers come, they get his soda - 18 and drinks and they get us his chips. 19 MR. : Hm. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Do you know anything 22 about would he eat before he would go and then 23 be afforded a tray as soon as he got back to 24 SHU? 25 MR. : Oh. I mean yeah . but that EFTA00110981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 wouldn't be -. That wouldn't be kind of 2 common. That's what any legal visit that we 3 used to do. 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm just 5 saying if he's 7 days a week not eating - only 6 eating a bag of chips or something from 8:00 7 a.m. to 8:00 III., that seems like he'd get a 8 little more hungry than that. 9 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. I don't 10 know - I don't recall him getting a tray in 11 there though. 12 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. 13 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. 14 MR. : I don't know if he was or 15 not. That's why I was asking. 16 MR. : Yeah. But if he comes back 17 from there and they said hey that's my tray 18 from earlier and if he was in legal visit, we 19 would give it to him. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : I mean that's common 22 practice. 23 MR. : Let's say - once left 24 that morning. 25 MR. : Who? EFTA00110982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 MR. -: 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Once he left that morning, I 4 know there's like a sheet that keeps track of 5 all the inmates in the SHU. Right? They have 6 like a bed count sheet. 7 MR. : Bed book count. 8 MR. : Bed book count. Would that 9 book need to be updated? 10 MR. : That he left? Yeah. 11 MR. : Whose responsibility would 12 that have been? 13 MR. : Uh. I don't know officers. 14 MR. : So officers should have 15 updated it. Now let's say they went in 4:00 16 III. count. And then 9:00 III. count - god 17 forbid there was something off with the count. 18 They would have to pull out eh bed book and 19 verify it. Right? 20 MR. : If you get two bad counts. 21 MR. : Two bad counts. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : But if no one updated the 24 book, would that be an issue? 25 MR. : Well if you get two bad EFTA00110983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 counts, you've got to a bed book. And then 2 you'll find discrepancy. But then again, you 3 know who usually updates the bed book count? 4 MR. : The lieutenant? 5 MR. : Morning watch. Because I'm 6 now - this is the new day - 12:01. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : This person's not here. Now 9 I know for a fact that this is what I'm 10 starting my day with - for the whole day. 11 MR. : I was going to show one - the 12 same document. You mentioned that when you 13 were working the SHU around 2:00 a.m. you would 14 have got the court document. Right? The 15 attorney would have brought it up. Or someone 16 would have brought up the document. 17 MR. : Yeah. It comes up on morning 18 watch. 19 MR. : If - I mean and we don't know 20 for sure if that was the same happening. Who 21 would have got that notification at 2:00 a.m. 22 on August 9th? 23 MR. : About the paperwork? 24 MR. : About the court documents. 25 MR. : Uh probably internal. EFTA00110984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 MR. : No who in the SHU. Who was 2 in the SHU at that point? Who would have 3 gotten notified? Hey, listen is leaving 4 in the morning. 5 MR. : Uh. and 6 MR. -: 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : And let's say the morning 9 came around. The shift changes and -. Who 10 would have notified um - they got the document? 11 They - is leaving. 12 MR. : Mm-hm. 13 MR. : Who would have notified 14 control or kept track of the fact that is 15 walking out of there? 16 MR. : And again I told you, see if 17 you don't - it's not a thought. It's not 18 coming on my radar until -. 19 MR. : No. I'm not saying that. 20 But who in the SHU would have been responsible? 21 MR. : Someone in the SHU like I 22 said evening watch around 8:00. If they're 23 saying hey, R&D they weren't back? Make sure 24 our count is right. But um. Yeah. 25 MR. : That's it. I just had to EFTA00110985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 clarify that. Thank you. 2 MR. : But just because 3 and got that sheet, it doesn't mean 4 that they would have done anything at that 5 time, right? Wouldn't it have been the next 6 shift to get -? Who would have gotten him 7 ready to do at 8:30? 8 MR. : Well depending on what time. 9 I mean they could do it at 6:00. 10 MR. : They being? 11 MR. : Hey, whoever comes in at 12 6:00. Hey, he got court. 13 MR. : All right. So they would 14 have been the guys that probably getting 15 everybody ready to go to court? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. At least giving 18 them notice. 19 MR. : Who was on shift to get 20 ready? If he left around 8:00. 21 MR. : Uh 22 23 MR. -: was though? 24 MR. -: was there at 6:00 25 yeah. EFTA00110986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : He was SHU 3. 3 MR. : Okay. At 6:00 a.m.? 4 MR. Yep. I see - wait. So I see 5 he notified his relief is what he's saying. 6 Right? was his relief at 2:00. 7 MR. : Yeah. According to that 8 memo. 9 MR. : Yeah. I mean yeah. It's one 10 of those situations. 11 MR. : That's all I got. 12 MR. : Okay. Cool. Anything 13 you got (Indiscernible *03:40:03). We had a 14 really long interview here. So I apologize for 15 that. But we do appreciate you bearing with 16 us. All right. It is 4:46 p.m. on Monday, 17 July 12, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 18 and I am turning off the 19 recorder. 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00110987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 294 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00110988