EFTA00110989.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JULY 12, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00110989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00110990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is with the U.S. 3 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 4 General New York Field Office and these are my 5 credentials. All right. This interview with 6 federal Bureau of Prisons lieutenant 7 is being conducted as part 8 of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is July 12, 2021, and the time is 11 1:06 p.m. This interview is being conducted at 12 the federal correctional institution Danbury, 13 located in Danbury, Connecticut. This is the 14 training center. What is it the -? 15 MR. : SIPE Center. 16 MR. : SIPE Center? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : What does it stand for do 19 you know? 20 MR. : Mm.... 21 MR. : SPI - whatever. It's the 22 training center. 23 MR. : SIPE. Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. It's the training 25 center right outside of the FCI Danbury on the EFTA00110991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 FCI Danbury property. Also present is DOJ OIG 2 Special Agent . This interview 3 will be recorded by me, SSA 4 Could everyone please identify themselves for 5 the record and spell your last name. To start, 6 again I am DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 7 8 MR. : I am Special Agent 9 10 MR. : I am Lieutenant 11 12 MR. : Thank you sir. This is 13 an official DOJ OIG investigation to the death 14 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 15 circumstances, and you're being asked to 16 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 17 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 18 the DOJ OIG? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Thank you sir. This is a 21 form that we have for our voluntary interviews. 22 We give this to everybody that's voluntary just 23 so you know that it is voluntary. You know you 24 can stop the interview any time. You don't 25 have to answer our questions. You can leave. EFTA00110992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 I'm going to read it to you for the record. 2 It's United States Department of Justice Office 3 of the Inspector General Warnings and 4 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 5 Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are 6 being asked to provide information as part of 7 an investigation being conducted by the Office 8 of the Inspector General. This investigation 9 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 10 General Act as amended. This investigation 11 pertains to job performance failure and 12 security failure. This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 15 be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 18 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 19 or both. Then there's the waiver which says I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me. And there's 25 the - right here - employee signature and EFTA00110993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 employee's name. You want to read that 2 yourself. Feel free to. If you agree just 3 sign 4 MR. : So it says job performance 5 failure and security failure according to-. 6 MR. : That's for everybody. 7 We're giving that - that's just the blanket 8 statement we're providing to every single 9 person that we interview. 10 MR. -: .mm 11 MR. : It doesn't necessarily 12 mean that you've done anything wrong. It's 13 just that's what the investigation is looking 14 into. You know security failure of the 15 institution - job performance failure. Because 16 someone died in this matter. And looking into 17 the surrounding circumstances with it. 18 Everybody's being provided that same - 19 MR. : Okay. 20 21 MR. : -- that same information. 22 Okay. So I just singed my name as the Special 23 Agent. And I'm printing my name. Again this 24 is 25 MR. : This is Special Agent EFTA00110994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 I am signing as a witness. 2 MR. : Okay. And Special Agent 3 , if you don't mind, just place the date 4 and time. Again it is July 12, 2021, and the 5 time is 1:10 p.m. now. And the place is FCI 6 Danbury Training Center. Thank you, sir. 7 Okay. Did you understand that form? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. Cool. Is there 10 any other questions you want to ask about that 11 though? 12 MR. : no. 13 MR. : No? 14 MR. : I mean it's voluntary is that 15 right? 16 MR. : Yeah. Exactly. 17 Voluntary. You don't have to answer. And 18 again that job performance failure - security 19 failure that's something we're telling 20 everybody that that's the purpose of our 21 interviews is to figure out - 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- what went wrong and 24 all that kind of stuff with regard to this 25 matter. Before starting the interview, I'd EFTA00110995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like to place you under oath. Lieutenant 2 can you please raise your right hand. 3 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 4 the truth during this interview? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Thank you sir. All 7 right. Please just let me know if you don't 8 understand these questions and I'll try to 9 rephrase them or put them in a different way 10 add clarification. So what is your home 11 address? 12 MR. -: 13 MR. : And what is your date of 14 birth? 15 MR. -: 16 MR. : And your Social Security 17 number? 18 MR. 19 MR. : Thank you. And your 20 current cell phone number. 21 MR. 22 MR. : And what's your highest 23 level of education? 24 MR. : Um bachelors. 25 MR. : Where? EFTA00110996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Criminal justice. 2 MR. : Criminal justice. Where 3 did you get that from? 4 MR. : John Jay. 5 MR. : Is that in New York City? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : And when did you 8 graduate? 9 MR. : 2006, I think. 10 MR. : Okay. And what did you 11 do prior to working for the BOP? 12 MR. : Uh TSA. 13 MR. : Um okay. And what did 14 you do for TSA? 15 MR. : I was a screener at JFK. 16 MR. : How long did you do that? 17 MR. : Mm six and a half years. 18 MR. : From approximately when 19 until when? 20 MR. : '02 to '09. 21 MR. : '02 to '09. Okay. And 22 do you have any military service? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. And how long have 25 you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? EFTA00110997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm like about 20 years. 2 MR. : Twenty years. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Oh, okay. So you did it 5 while you were with TSA? 6 MR. : I did TSA is federal. And I 7 8 MR. : No-no-no. With the BOP. 9 How long have you served with the BOP? 10 MR. : The BOP? 11 MR. : Sorry. 12 MR. : Twelve years. 13 MR. : Twelve years. Okay. 14 From when until when. 15 MR. : '09 to present. 16 MR. : What was your Enter on 17 Duty Date? 18 MR. Mm June 21st I think uh 2009/ 19 MR. : Okay. Any breaks of 20 service? 21 MR. : Nah. 22 MR. : Okay. And when did you 23 do you know when you graduated BOP training? 24 MR. : Mm I think it's September or 25 August. EFTA00110998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : Of ;09? 2 MR. : You're talking about Glencoe, 3 right? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Yeah '09. 6 MR. : '09. Okay. And when and 7 where was your first office assignment with the 8 BOP? 9 MR. : New York. 10 MR. : Uh which institution? 11 MR. : MCC. 12 MR. : Were you with MCC the 13 whole time? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Oh, okay. And when did 16 you become a lieutenant? 17 MR. : What's this '21 - 2019, 118 18 I think December 17th I did a temp. 19 MR. : December of 2017? 20 MR. '17. Yeah. 21 MR. : And when did you leave 22 the MCC? 23 MR. : I left December '19. 24 MR. : December of 2019? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00110999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : And then is that when you 2 came here to the FCI Danbury? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And um did you come here 5 for a promotion? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : So were you a GS9 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. : I was a 9 there but I got TDY 10 down there. So I was 11 also there. 11 MR. : Oh you were? 12 MR. : Yeah. I got TDY for about 13 four months. 14 MR. : Okay. Can you just - 15 what does that mean? 16 MR. : Temporary Duty. Like I 17 was picked up. I got my promotion, but I had 18 to stay down there for a few months until I 19 came up here. 20 MR. : Okay. So FCI Danbury. 21 You were promoted to an 11 but they had you 22 stay down there as an 11 for four months? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So when were you actually 25 picked up? EFTA00111000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : About three months. In 2 October, September, October, November, three 3 months. Yeah. 4 MR. : So when did you actually 5 get your promotion? 6 MR. Mm September. 7 MR. : Of 2019? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And when did you 10 physically come to the FCI Danbury? 11 MR. : December. 12 MR. : December. Okay. And 13 your current position is still GS11 lieutenant? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what was your 16 position at the MCC on August 9th and 10th of 17 2019? 18 MR. : Uh August you said 10th? 19 MR. : Yeah. So August - you 20 said September you got your 11 so I'm assuming 21 in August of 2019 you were 22 MR. : I was a 9 then. 23 MR. : -- a 9 lieutenant. 24 MR. : Yeah. In August yeah. 25 MR. : And this is just for my EFTA00111001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 own knowledge. What is the difference between 2 a 9 lieutenant and an 11 lieutenant? 3 MR. : Pretty much you could - 4 if you at 9 you can't run the institution. 5 Because it's not a higher rank. So like 11 or 6 the only ones who can without a captain. 7 You're the highest. But a 9 you can't be the 8 highest. 9 MR. : So does that mean like as 10 far as like being the ops lieutenant versus the 11 activities' lieutenant? 12 MR. : Nah. You could be ops as a 13 9. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : But - but -. 16 MR. : So like acting captain 17 you mean? 18 MR. : No. Say like if it's a 9, 19 it's like evening watch. Four to twelve or 20 midnight. The 11 is the highest authority. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : As a 9 you can't do that. 23 You have to have 11 or above for 9 to be in 24 authority. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So you can be an ops 3 lieutenant but somebody else has to be there 4 that's higher than you? 5 MR. : Yeah. If you a 9 yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you recall what 7 shift you worked on August 9th and 10th of 8 2019? 9 MR. : August 9th? What day was 10 that? 11 MR. : It's August 9th - sorry. 12 We'll just talk about August 9th. August 9th, 13 2019 that was the day before Epstein was found 14 dead. It was a Friday. 15 MR. : So the Friday. I probably 16 was day watch. 17 MR. : Okay. I'm going to give 18 you the daily roster from that date just do you 19 can reprint it. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Um anytime I give you a 22 document - you don't have to do it right away - 23 but you can - I'm just going to have you 24 initial and date each document. It's just for 25 the record we can say that's the document you EFTA00111003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 looked at. And we don't like replace 2 something. You know what I mean? 3 MR. : Mm-hm. 4 MR. : Um so on that can you 5 find your name and see where it is that you 6 worked just to verify? 7 MR. : Yeah. I did overtime from 8 6:00 to 2:00. 9 MR. : From 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 10 p.m.? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : And that was on August 13 9th? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Do you know if you - 16 there were the specific times that you worked? 17 I know for instance the individual that was the 18 activities' lieutenant after you. She didn't 19 start until 4:00 p.m. because she had her 20 regular time shift until 4:00 p.m. 21 MR. : Mm-hm. 22 MR. : Would that mean that you 23 had worked until 4:00? Or would you still have 24 stopped at 2:00? 25 MR. : Uh I don't know. EFTA00111004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 MR. : Do you usually have to 2 wait until the new activities' lieutenant comes 3 on board? 4 MR. Mm that's was -. But 5 she wasn't a lieutenant here though. 6 MR. : No. She was an SIS, but 7 she got I guess temporarily promoted. At least 8 for that day to be able to be the activities' 9 lieutenant. But she was in attorney conference 10 until 4:00 p.m. And she didn't start as the 11 activities' lieutenant until 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. : I don't remember. But I know 13 we usually - even though it says 8:00 to 4:00, 14 we usually do 6:00 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00 15 anyway. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : We relieve people early. 18 MR. : Right. And my 19 understanding is it's for traffic purposes. 20 MR. : So if the 9th I would have 21 came on then. She wouldn't have to stay until 22 4:00. I don't know. 23 MR. : How does that typically 24 work though I guess. Would it be - do you have 25 to be relieved before you can leave? EFTA00111005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 MR. Mm you mean for me? 2 MR. : Yeah. Like if you're the 3 activities' lieutenant at the MCC back in 4 August of 2019. Are you allowed to leave 5 before the new activities' lieutenant takes 6 over? Or do you have to wait until she's done? 7 I'm just trying to help refresh your memory if 8 you can -. 9 MR. : I'm not sure. I know how we 10 do it is someone day I got you. I'll cover 11 you. Then we relieved. 12 MR. : But you don't 13 specifically remember this date? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Not the fact that like 16 Epstein died the day after. Does that help you 17 like kind of refresh your memory of what your 18 involvement may have been? 19 MR. : I know I was doing day watch. 20 I was doing day watch. I do know that. But as 21 far as who relieved and all that. No. I don't 22 remember that. 23 MR. : All right. We can 24 probably just grab your time and attendance 25 records then later just to try to EFTA00111006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 (Indiscernible * *00:12:34) that down. But you 2 just can't remember at this point? 3 MR. : What you asked me was I 4 there? 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just I 6 mean from the 2:00 to 4:00. You don't remember 7 if you would have - you had to wait until 8 was actually in place before you left or 9 not. 10 MR. Nah. I don't know. I could 11 have been there at 4:00 because I left at 2:00. 12 I'm not sure. 13 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So you either worked 16 until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 p.m. you just don't 17 recall. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. And who did 20 you - on that date - who would have you 21 primarily worked with? 22 MR. : Mm I don't know. Because 23 Friday -. I don't know why I'm doing overtime 24 on Friday. I'm trying to think. And is 25 normally not the ops lieutenant though either. EFTA00111007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : Is that because he was a 2 9? 3 MR. is 11. He's SHU 4 lieutenant. 5 MR. : At that time was the 6 SHU lieutenant. 7 MR. : Oh no-no-no was the SHU 8 lieutenant. Okay. So if I'm on Friday and 9 Saturday, then -. 10 MR. : Well here if -. 11 MR. : Maybe. I don't know. You 12 have my what's her name records? 13 MR. : This is Saturday. So I'm 14 giving you the daily assignment roster. 15 MR. : I'm thinking this is my day 16 off. I'm thinking Friday was my day off. So I 17 came in for the overtime on Friday. If I'm on 18 Friday and Saturday, then I would be ops. 19 That's what I'm thinking. 20 MR. : Did you work on Saturday? 21 MR. : Saturday I was off. 22 MR. : Okay. So you're not on 23 that list that I just gave you for Saturday? 24 MR. : No. I should be on day 25 watch. EFTA00111008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : This the day Epstein died 3 right? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Yeah. I wasn't there that 6 day. 7 MR. : Okay. But you just can't 8 remember if you worked until 2:00 p.m. or 4:00 9 p.m. on August 9th. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Again there's no reason 12 that I'm asking you this specifically right 13 now. It's just to try to make sure we know 14 what time you worked there. 15 MR. : Well you trying to see if 16 there's a pattern of -. 17 MR. : no-no-no. Not a pattern. 18 It's not looking at you. It's just to - you 19 know when we talk to people, we say like what 20 time were you there from. Just because in 21 knowing that didn't start until - 22 because there's no reason for us at this point 23 to get your time and attendance records. 24 Because again we're just talking to everybody 25 that was there on each day. EFTA00111009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : I'm just trying to -. 3 When we talk to you, we just need to lock down 4 each person. What time were you there until? 5 MR. : I don't know. 6 MR. : We have specific questions 7 about what happened during the day. But if 8 you're not there during the day during that 9 specific time -. 10 MR. : Some questions might not 11 apply to you. 12 MR. : Apply to you. That's what 13 we're trying to figure out. So what time were 14 you there until. 15 MR. : I mean so you want to ask me 16 questions up until 4:00 is what you're saying? 17 MR. : We'll ask you 18 specifically questions -. 19 MR. : Well you can do it but if I 20 don' remember I just say I don't remember. 21 MR. : Yeah. That's fine. You 22 just don't. but at this point you just don't 23 know if you were there until 4:00. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Um and you don't remember EFTA00111010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 relieving . Or relieving you. 2 MR. : no. 3 MR. : And do you remember being 4 relieved by anyone? 5 MR. : no. 6 MR. : No? All right. But I 7 guess then that goes back to my original 8 question. Do you need to be relieved by 9 someone in order to leave? 10 MR. : Um normally. It depends. 11 MR. : Can there be just an ops 12 lieutenant and no activities' lieutenant on 13 during the day? 14 MR. : Yeah. That could be any day. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : So it's just - there's 18 no-. these are genuine questions. We don't 19 know the answers to these. So that's not like 20 abnormal to have like just like a two-hour gap 21 where there's no activities' lieutenant? 22 MR. : No. We was going a lot of 23 work up until this. We were doing a lot of 24 work. So some days you'll be there. I'm quite 25 sure looking at the records, you'll see my name EFTA00111011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 by itself. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : So. 4 MR. : On some days there was 5 just like one activity or one ops lieutenant? 6 There was nobody -? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. And that was 9 Monday through Friday? Not just on weekends? 10 MR. : Any day. 11 MR. : Or night shifts? Or 12 morning? 13 MR. : Any days. It was a busy time 14 back then. 15 MR. : Yes. Um. Okay. Do you 16 know at that time who was your supervisor? 17 MR. : Uh the captain. Captain 18 19 MR. : Okay. And as the 20 activities' lieutenant, and you said it was day 21 watch? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : What were your duties and 24 responsibilities? 25 MR. : Rounds um orderly EFTA00111012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 institution. Running the institution. 2 MR. : And what does a round 3 consist of as a lieutenant? 4 MR. : Going up to the unit. 5 Speaking to the officer. If you want, go to 6 unit team. Do the tiers. See what's going on. 7 MR. : Now at that time, did 8 lieutenant -? When you say go do tiers. Were 9 Lieutenants responsible for conducting rounds 10 of inmates as well? Like you know walking up 11 and down the tiers to make sure? 12 MR. : Something like that. I mean 13 that's - are we - the lieutenants responsible 14 for that? 15 MR. : Yeah. I know that that's 16 the CO's primary responsibility. But when you 17 are conducting a round in like a unit, 18 specifically we'll talk about the SHU. If you 19 visit the SHU, and on this date, there was no 20 SHU lieutenant. Correct? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So if you were visiting 23 the SHU, are you responsible to conduct any 24 rounds of the tiers as a lieutenant? 25 MR. : Yeah. The lieutenant has to EFTA00111013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 make a round in SHU each shift. 2 MR. : So when I say - but when 3 you visit the SHU, is it just visiting the SHU? 4 Checking in with the officers? Or do you - I 5 mean - checking in with the COs or is it 6 actually also doing a round of - where the 7 inmates are located and looking in their cells? 8 MR. : I mean yeah, you're supposed 9 to do a round. 10 MR. : Okay. So that -. 11 MR. : You mean exactly what do you 12 supposed to specifically do? 13 MR. : Yeah. I guess what I'm 14 asking is what does a lieutenant round in the 15 SHU consist of? 16 MR. : I don't know. I know for me, 17 I used to like to go down the tiers. 18 MR. : To actually check on the 19 inmates. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So you're actually doing 22 -? 23 MR. : Do a whole complete round. 24 MR. : So you're actually doing 25 a round of the inmates not just doing a round EFTA00111014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 in the SHU to say hey are you guys good with 2 the officers. 3 MR. : Nah. Unless something 4 happens. Like if something happens you know. 5 They just say you all right - it was a BA. All 6 right. I'll be back or something like that. 7 But. 8 MR. : Right-right. You mean if 9 you got called out or something like that - you 10 needed the run. 11 MR. : That or they call you. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Something specific to a 14 specific tale or -. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But were you 16 responsible - and this is just in general not 17 just specifically you? It's any lieutenant. 18 If there's no SHU lieutenant responsible to do 19 a round on day watch of the inmates when they 20 visit the SHU. 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You're not sure. But you 23 did. 24 MR. : That day? 25 MR. : No I mean just in EFTA00111015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 general. Like when you would visit the SHU you 2 would do that? 3 MR. : Yeah. Say like if I fill in 4 or whatever. And there's no SHU lieutenant to 5 say hey you got to make a round. All right. 6 Or you have activities do it or whatever. 7 MR. : So ops lieutenant tells 8 you to do the round? 9 MR. : Anyone could say hey I'm 10 going up there or hey I got the round or 11 whatever. 12 MR. : Does a lieutenant have to 13 do a round on that shift? 14 MR. : That would be yeah you have 15 to do a round. 16 MR. : Okay. So at least one 17 lieutenant on day watch on August 9, 2019, had 18 to do a round in the SHU of the inmates? 19 MR. : On day watch? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Uh yeah. 22 MR. : What about night watch 23 and morning watch? Do they have to do it on 24 those? 25 MR. : Night watch and morning watch EFTA00111016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 yeah. 2 MR. : So every shift a 3 lieutenant has to -. 4 MR. : Three shifts you got to do a 5 round. 6 MR. : And that -? 7 MR. : Supposed to do a round. 8 MR. : And that's with the 9 inmates not just checking in? 10 MR. : I'm not sure. 11 MR. : Oh you're not sure. But 12 you would? When you did it? 13 MR. : I'm on (Indiscernible * 14 *00:19:51). I'm trying to move around. 15 like to hit the tiers. 16 MR. : Okay. Cool. Do you remember 17 who you replaced on that day? 18 MR. : Who I relieved? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who I relieved? 21 MR. : Who relieved -? 22 MR. : Nobody. 23 MR. : So because there's no 24 activities' lieutenant prior to you? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : And that's because yeah 2 there's only - for the morning watch is there 3 only an ops lieutenant? 4 MR. : Yep. 5 MR. : So you were the first one 6 in on that day? And you said you arrived when? 7 MR. : Um 6:00. 8 MR. : 6:00 a.m. Okay. And you 9 said you just don't recall who replaced you or 10 if you stayed until 4:00. Correct? 11 MR. : Yeah. Did you look at the 12 video? 13 MR. : We didn't - haven't had a 14 reason to yet. I just assumed you would have 15 remembered. 16 MR. : No. I don't remember. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : It was '19. 19 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No just 20 because of the - you know this was probably one 21 of the biggest things that's ever happened. 22 MR. : Yeah but that's why I'm like 23 why are they asking about it now? That's why 24 I'm like -. 25 MR. : Yeah. I mean now is just EFTA00111018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 because there's things that have happened in 2 the past month that now is creating a -- 3 MR. : Oh with the case. 4 MR. : Yeah. That we now have 5 to interview a ton of people to be able to find 6 out who was there, what happened, and all that 7 kind of stuff. 8 MR. : Yeah. But I'm not sure about 9 the time on that. 10 MR. : All right. And are you 11 familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Did you ever work or 14 visit the SHU while Epstein was assigned to the 15 SHU in July and August 2019? 16 MR. : Probably yeah. 17 MR. : Did Epstein have a 18 cellmate when he was in the SHU? 19 MR. : Up until that day, right? 20 MR. : Yes. And do you know if 21 there was a reason why Epstein was assigned a 22 cellmate? 23 MR. : In SHU you're supposed to be 24 double bunked. 25 MR. : Okay. So -. EFTA00111019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 MR. : Even if you don't have the 2 whole prior thing before. 3 MR. : So everybody in the SHU 4 is supposed to be? 5 MR. : Not everybody. But you got 6 certain cases. But he was supposed to have a 7 bunk. 8 MR. : So as far as who would - 9 who wouldn't be assigned a cellmate? 10 MR. : House alone, rec alone 11 inmates. You know hunger strike inmates, 12 NPOs... 13 MR. : But Epstein was one of 14 those inmates that should have had a cellmate? 15 MR. : Yeah. He was a regular 16 inmate. Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. Um are you aware 18 that Epstein had attempted to commit suicide on 19 July 23, 2019? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And were you one of the 22 responding officers to that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Were you - did you have 25 any involvement with it? EFTA00111020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That incident? No. 2 MR. : No. Do you know what 3 transpired? 4 MR. : They say he put something 5 around his neck. In his cell. And that was 6 it. 7 MR. : Did you ever hear any 8 rumors that his cell mate may have tried to 9 harm him? 10 MR. : Oh yeah. You're talking 11 about um -. Yeah. I heard about that. Yeah. 12 MR. : What did you hear about 13 that? 14 MR. : That it was a ploy for him to 15 get (Indiscernible *00:22:43). Something like 16 that. 17 MR. : All right. So did you -? 18 Is your understanding that he actually did try 19 to harm himself? Or was it your understanding 20 that his cell mate tried to harm him? 21 MR. : You're talking about the 22 rumor? 23 MR. : Yeah. What is your 24 understanding of -- 25 MR. : The rumor was the guy -- EFTA00111021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- what actually -? 2 MR. : -- also had a high-profile 3 case. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And I think Epstein was up 6 for a bail hearing. So they made it look like 7 he was doing that in order to get better. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Do you think there was 11 any legitimacy to the rumor? 12 MR. : I don't know. Not after 13 this. Nah. 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : All right. So do you 17 believe that he did actually try to harm 18 himself on July 23rd? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. Um do you know as 21 a result of July 23rd if Epstein - if anything 22 happened with Epstein? Was he removed from the 23 SHU and placed anywhere else? 24 MR. Mm. He went to suicide 25 watch. EFTA00111022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 MR. : Okay. And what happens 2 on suicide watch? Is that outside of the SHU? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And then after you get 5 placed on suicide watch. Is that a temporary 6 thing and then you get moved over to psych 7 observation? 8 MR. : Not all the time. No. 9 That's up to psych. Psych makes that call. 10 MR. : Do you - are you aware if 11 Epstein was outside of the SHU and on suicide 12 watch or psych observation for approximately 13 one week? 14 MR. : I know he was definitely on 15 there. Because I remember seeing him. 16 MR. : You saw him there? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Um is that because you 19 were doing rounds? Or why did you see him 20 there? 21 MR. : I had to - because I'm the 22 one who does the showers. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : For suicide inmates. On 25 psych watch if you're down there. So he was EFTA00111023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 down there one day - probably a couple days. 2 But I know I took him to the shower one time. 3 Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. So you had some 5 interaction with him. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : While he was in suicide 8 watch. 9 MR. : Suicide watch. Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. And I just thought 11 - I thought you were only on suicide watch for 12 like 24 hours. And then after that it was 13 called psych observation. Is that not your 14 understanding? 15 MR. : It's up to psych. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : That's a psych call. 18 MR. : But is it in the same - 19 they're in the same location. Correct? 20 MR. : Yeah but people who are on 21 suicide watch longer than 24 hours. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So your understanding the 25 whole time he was there it was called suicide EFTA00111024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch? 2 MR. : I don't remember. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : The whole time he was there. 5 MR. : Um do you know when he 6 was removed from suicide watch? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Do you know why he was 9 removed from suicide watch? 10 MR. : He would be moved because 11 psych said it's okay. 12 MR. : Okay. And when someone 13 is on suicide watch, what does it entail? 14 MR. : You have a suicide smock. 15 Suicide mattress. And a suicide blanket. And 16 you allow pretty much no items unless they 17 approved it, they supposed to have. 18 MR. : Okay. And what's the 19 difference? What is the difference between 20 psych observation? What does that entail? 21 MR. : You got the clothes. 22 MR. : All right. So when 23 you're on suicide watch, you don't have 24 clothes? 25 MR. : Naked. EFTA00111025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 MR. : You're naked the whole 2 time? And you know if Epstein was naked that 3 whole time? 4 MR. : He had a smock and a -. 5 Yeah. He didn't have no clothes. 6 MR. : He didn't have clothes 7 when he was on suicide watch? 8 MR. : You can't have clothes on 9 suicide watch. 10 MR. : Okay. All right. So 11 does it sound right that he would have been 12 removed about a week later around July 30th. 13 Does that sound like a date -- 14 MR. : I don't know. 15 MR. : -- or you're not sure? 16 MR. : Mm-hm. 17 MR. : Okay. Did you ever 18 receive any instructions from anyone with 19 regard to Epstein being assigned a cellmate 20 after he came back from suicide watch? 21 MR. : I'm not sure. 22 MR. : You don't remember any 23 verbal conversations or anything like that? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. I'm going to EFTA00111026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 show you an email. And then you can tell me if 2 you remember receiving it. An email from a 3 Do you know who that is? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : All right. It's to 6 Suicide Watch / Psych Observation Update. And 7 that's also what the subject is. And it's from 8 July 30, 2019. It says, "Inmate Epstein" and 9 it gives his reg number. "Is being taken off 10 of psych observation and needs to be housed 11 with an appropriate cellmate." Do you recall 12 receiving -? 13 MR. : Yeah. It's a generic. We 14 always get those. 15 MR. : You get those? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : There's names on the 18 back. It shows that you were one of them and 19 that you read it. Do you see your name? Yeah. 20 It would be under J. So. It's all 21 alphabetical. 22 MR. : It's under what? 23 MR. : It would be your first 24 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. 25 MR. : So does that ring a bell? EFTA00111027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Do you remember getting that? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. Cool. And then do 4 you recall -? So you are aware that he needed 5 a cellmate then. Correct? You already said 6 that you knew he needed one because he was a 7 regular inmate. Right? 8 MR. : Yeah. But I don't know what 9 this is at 12:30 the 30th right? 10 MR. : Yeah 7:30 - so yeah. 11 MR. : Oh it was 7:30 July 30th? 12 So he got off on July 30th? 13 MR. : Correct. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Placed back in the SHU 16 and required a cellmate. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : And just before we 19 forget. Do you mind just initialing and dating 20 each one of these documents just so that they 21 don't start piling up? And as well as that 22 email. Thank you, sir. Now do you remember 23 having any conversations with anyone else like 24 verbal. Like or anybody regarding the 25 need for him to have a cellmate? EFTA00111028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Because, I'm assuming, he 3 was the most high-profile if not one of the 4 most high-profile inmates at the time. 5 Correct? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : So would that be 8 something that they would - people would 9 usually communicate with the activities and the 10 ops lieutenant about? 11 MR. : I mean if you got the email. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : You got a follow-up that 15 you wanted to ask something? 16 MR. : We'll finish up on this. 17 Because it's going back one. 18 MR. : No-no. Please. Go 19 ahead. 20 MR. : So you mentioned that you had 21 interacted with Epstein when he was on suicide 22 watch. You took him for his showers. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : How was the interactions with 25 him? EFTA00111029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 MR. : You know, cuff up, take him 2 to the shower. 3 MR. : Did you ever talk to him? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Was he pleasant? Were there 6 any issues with that? 7 MR. : He was saying hey, while I'm 8 down here, pretty much he asked why he was down 9 here. I said well, he was like yeah, I'm not 10 suicidal, such-and-such. And you know let me 11 talk to psych so I could get off this. I don't 12 think he liked it. 13 MR. : This was immediately after 14 the July 23rd? 15 MR. : I don't know exactly what day 16 it was. But you know it was around there. 17 MR. : Got it. 18 MR. : We're going to follow-up 19 with some of those more lines of questioning 20 later on in the interview. Um so you don't 21 recall though receiving specific instructions 22 from Captain or anyone else with regard 23 to Epstein? You just - you do know he needed 24 one and you did get the email? 25 MR. : These come all the time. Any EFTA00111030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 inmate comes off of watch, they send it out. 2 MR. : And should everyone know 3 if someone comes off of watch that they are 4 required to have a cellmate? 5 MR. : I'm not sure. I mean that's 6 what they do. They come out. Anyone comes off 7 suicide watch, you put them in with a cellmate. 8 MR. : Yeah. And that's pretty 9 general, common knowledge. Correct? And where 10 do you learn that? Is that from your daily 11 operations? Or do you learn that in training 12 as well? 13 MR. : I don't know. I guess it's 14 daily operations. 15 MR. : Okay. But most people 16 should know that a person coming off of suicide 17 watch is required to have a cellmate. 18 MR. : Uh I mean it depends. I 19 don't know. I know we get these emails though. 20 They send them out any time an inmate comes 21 off. You try to put them with a cellmate. But 22 then again like I said in the SHU, it's you 23 know. Because even if they come off suicide 24 watch, they don't -. Say like they come off 25 they stay in SHU for a year. They have to have EFTA00111031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 a cellmate for a year. You understand what I'm 2 saying? So as far as the notice we get, but do 3 everyone know that? I'm not sure about that. 4 MR. : But you knew. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : How did you know though? 7 MR. : I got the email. 8 MR. : Okay. So, your knowledge 9 is from the email, but earlier, you said that 10 anybody in the SHU, anyway, needs to a cell 11 mate? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : All right. So, he had 14 basically two requirements to him. One, there 15 was the email that he received; also, the fact 16 that he was in the SHU, and he didn't have any 17 of those special requirements, like, he was 18 going to harm someone else, or something like 19 that, that he should have had a cellmate? 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : All right. And do you 22 know if you ever communicated that to anybody, 23 when you visited the SHU in July or August of 24 2019? 25 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. EFTA00111032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 MR. : Like, the people that 2 worked in the SHU, would have you would have 3 been as the activities' lieutenant, if you're 4 doing a round in there. Is that something that 5 you would address? 6 MR. : Bring up? Yeah. If I - yeah 7 - but if he had a - one - if he had a cellmate, 8 though. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Yeah. Bring something up if 11 they didn't. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : So, you'd only bring it 13 up if you knew he didn't have one? 14 MR. : So, like, if you say, hey, 15 guys, how many single cells I have? Such and 16 such. Hey, what's going on? Hey, well, this is 17 the reason. Yeah. 18 MR. : And is that something - 19 when you would visit the SHU - is that 20 something you would ask? How many single cells 21 do you have? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Is that a like one of the 24 check-the-box things? Does everybody that 25 visits the SHU EFTA00111033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 MR. : I can't speak for everybody. 2 But I know, even as OIC, we said, hey, you know 3 the fine, we have single cells. Maneuver to 4 condense it for space. Stuff like that. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, I don't know if everyone 7 (Indiscernible *00:32:18) into it. 8 MR. : But that's what you would 9 do? When you were the activities' lieutenant? 10 MR. : No. Sometimes. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : If I seen someone without, 13 hey, what's going on with this dude? Well, he's 14 housed (Indiscernible *00:32:28) room. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : But when you would visit 18 the SHU, was that something you would address, 19 saying how many single cells do we got? 20 MR. : I'm not the SHU lieutenant. 21 MR. : Oh, only if you're the 22 SHU lieutenant? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : I'm talking about -- 25 MR. : The SHU lieutenant -- EFTA00111034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- when you do your 2 rounds. 3 MR. : -- you do the rounds, you 4 only say it if you know that someone got - a 5 new come in. Okay, you got space for him. No. 6 Right now, we've got to put him in a single 7 cell, or something like that. 8 MR. : Okay. And were you ever 9 the SHU lieutenant? 10 MR. : At MCC? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : I don't think so. I was 13 never SHU lieutenant. 14 MR. : Okay. But do you 15 remember ever having any conversations with 16 anyone in the SHU -- 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : -- at the MCC about 19 Epstein and his cellmate requirement? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : No? All right. So, 22 referring to the duty assignment roster, who 23 were the MCC's supervisor on duty, with 24 responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 25 9, 2019, when you were working? EFTA00111035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : It would be me and 2 MR. : So, the two of you would 3 be responsible? 4 MR. : On day watch. Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. And then, would it 6 be the same thing for the shift after you? 7 Would that be the activities' lieutenant and 8 the ops lieutenant? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And is that because, when 11 the SHU lieutenant is not there, activities' 12 lieutenant and ops lieutenant always have 13 oversight of the SHU? 14 MR. : Well, I told you we have to 15 make a round. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : In SHU. Yeah. 18 MR. : But that would be the 19 lieutenants - they would be the lieutenants 20 that would have oversight over the SHU, 21 correct? 22 MR. : Yeah. Pretty much. 23 MR. : Okay. On August 9th, 24 what communications did you have with any of 25 the other lieutenants with regard to Epstein EFTA00111036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 being housed with the MCC, or the MCC SHU? Can 2 you recall? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : And again, thinking back, 5 this is like one of the biggest things that's 6 ever happened when you were there, this guy 7 dies. Can you remember any conversations you 8 had the day before, with anyone, with regards 9 to Epstein? 10 MR. : I just know that he used to 11 come legal all the time. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Attorney conference, pretty 14 much the whole day. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : And that's about it. 17 MR. : And about what time would 18 he be moved to attorney conference? 19 MR. : Early. Like, probably 8:00 20 in the morning. 21 MR. : And who would be the 22 person that would move him there? 23 MR. : The SHU staff. Get him out 24 the SHU. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : He was in SHU. 2 MR. : And what would the - as 3 the activities' lieutenant, did you visit him 4 at all in attorney conference, or check on him? 5 Is that part of your round process? 6 MR. : It's not part of the rounds, 7 but if you see him in there, if you standing by 8 the elevators or something like that, yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : But you're not - you don't 11 have to check. No. 12 MR. : All right. Did anyone 13 ever provide you with special instructions, 14 with regards to Epstein? 15 MR. : Special instructions? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Like? Something - no. 18 MR. : No? 19 MR. : With special instructions? 20 Like -? 21 MR. : Like, conversations with 22 Epstein, hey, make sure you do this. Just 23 Epstein, make sure this is going - you know? 24 guess specific instructions. Maybe "special" 25 isn't the right word -- EFTA00111038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- but did anyone ever 3 specifically say, you know, this is Epstein, 4 we've got to make sure we're doing this? 5 MR. : Hmm-mm. No. Not that I 6 recall. 7 MR. : No? Did any lieutenants 8 ever talk to you about Epstein's requirement to 9 have a cellmate? 10 MR. Hmm-mm. I mean, it's not -. 11 Like I said, we've got the email. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : There's no one saying, hey, 14 by the way, (Indiscernible *00:36:07), and 15 didn't he have a cellmate up until then? I 16 think he had a cellmate since he got on the 17 suicide watch. So, I don't think there was a 18 lapse in it. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So, what about up until 22 then? You're saying, so -- 23 MR. : Right. Yeah. The cellmate, 24 right? 25 MR. : -- so, what is your EFTA00111039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 understanding of what happened -- 2 MR. : What happened? 3 MR. : -- on August 9th? 4 MR. : His cellmate went to court, 5 and either went to transferred, or got 6 released, or something. And never came back. 7 And then, you know, that night, he went out, he 8 went without a cellmate. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So, we'll get into that. 12 I'll ask you a couple more questions, then, 13 just to make sure we stay on kind of page, at 14 the bottom of this page, you see, we're going 15 to start talking about that inmate. And I'll 16 just - what you knew about that. You said the 17 lieutenants are responsible for conducting 18 rounds. Are they responsible for conducting 19 counts in the SHU? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : No? So, like, just 22 around, nothing to do with counts when you were 23 -? 24 MR. : Count is for officers. 25 MR. : Okay. And you don't need EFTA00111040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 to oversee them as the lieutenant, or anything 2 like that? 3 MR. : You could take a count, but 4 usually, you're doing patrol, you're not doing 5 the count with the officers. 6 MR. : Right. So, in physically 7 presence in the SHU, the only time that the 8 lieutenant is involved is actually with rounds, 9 not with counts? 10 MR. : Not with counts. 11 MR. : Okay. And did you 12 conduct any rounds in the SHU, on August 9, 13 2019? 14 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't 15 recall. 16 MR. : You don't remember? 17 Again, you're placing yourself back on one of 18 the biggest incidences, and you know all this 19 circus that's been going on since that time. 20 MR. : Yeah, I know. 21 MR. : So, you can't really put 22 yourself back on that day of, like, hey, what 23 was my involvement with this, and did I -? 24 MR. : No. No. I had no 25 involvement with this. EFTA00111041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 MR. : Well, that's what I mean, 2 but you -- 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- were the activities' 5 lieutenant, you know, on the, you know, the day 6 before. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : And specifically, like 9 you just said, on the day before, when his 10 cellmate was removed. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So, you can't remember? 13 MR. : If I did a round, then no. 14 MR. : Okay. So, you can't -. 15 Then, do you remember having any conversations 16 with any of the people listed in there, on your 17 shift, in the SHU? On that date, specifically 18 with regard to Epstein, or Reyes, his cellmate. 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : All right. And it'll be, 21 like, a 22 Michael Thomas, Tova Noel, 23 . None of those 24 people? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 MR. : Okay. So, you didn't 2 speak to any of those people about Epstein 3 being required to have a celimate since his 4 celimate was gone? 5 MR. : You're talking about that 6 day? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Or you're just saying -- 9 MR. : On the day that -- 10 MR. I can't remember. 11 MR. : -- okay. All right. The 12 people that are in the SHU, are they 13 responsible for conducting counts and round 14 during their shift? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : As far as the shift that 17 you worked, on day watch, what is your 18 understanding of how many rounds and counts 19 they should have done? 20 MR. : There's no counts on day 21 watch. 22 MR. : Okay. What about the 23 rounds? 24 MR. : The rounds, every - you're 25 doing a certain shift, we go about. So, you do EFTA00111043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 one, say, like, 8:00 to 8:30, you do one. 8:30 2 to 9:00, you do one. 3 MR. : So, every 30 minutes? 4 MR. : Every 30 minutes. Not to 5 exceed 40 minutes. They're regular rounds. 6 MR. : Okay. And you're 7 supposed to do one of those rounds with them, 8 but you can't recall whether you did or not? 9 MR. : No. We're not supposed to do 10 rounds with them. No. 11 MR. : You're supposed to just 12 do your own round? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Do our round in SHU. 16 MR. : And can you recall if you 17 did your round in SHU? 18 MR. : No, I can't. 19 MR. : You can't recall? Would 20 it be abnormal if you didn't? 21 MR. : I can't recall. 22 MR. : You can't recall if it 23 would be abnormal if you didn't? 24 MR. : If I didn't do the round? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00111044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 MR. : Would it be abnormal? I mean, 2 I'm not the SHU lieutenant. That's what I'm 3 saying. 4 MR. : But there's no SHU 5 lieutenant, you said, that, you know, you or 6 would be responsible. So, I'm saying, 7 would it be abnormal if you didn't do it? So, 8 would you normally have done it? I know you 9 said you're responsible for it. 10 MR. : No. The lieutenants are 11 responsible, but if a Monday through Friday, if 12 a SHU lieutenant is there, there's no reason 13 for me to go up there. 14 MR. : But there's no SHU 15 lieutenant. 16 MR. : Right. So, but I don't 17 recall if I did a round or not. No. 18 MR. : Okay. But the last 19 question wasn't that. I'm saying, would it 20 have been abnormal if you didn't do one? I know 21 you can't recall it -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. but would you normally 24 have done it, if there's no SHU lieutenant? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah? So, knowing 2 yourself, you probably would -. 3 MR. : If there's no SHU lieutenant, 4 yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : When did you become aware 8 that inmate Reyes was removed from the MCC on 9 August 9, 2019? 10 MR. : I don't know. 11 MR. : What is -. 12 MR. : The only thing I heard is, I 13 know, I woke up, they're saying, I saw the 14 story. 15 MR. : What is your involvement, 16 as the activities' lieutenant that day, with 17 inmates who are going to court? 18 MR. : I didn't have no involvement. 19 MR. : So, the activities 20 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:41:32). 21 MR. : -- lieutenant is not 22 involved? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Is the ops lieutenant 25 involved? EFTA00111046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Not really, no. 2 MR. : So, who is involved? Who 3 -? 4 MR. : R&D. Receive and Discharge. 5 MR. : Okay. And do you 6 remember who was working in R&D that day, in 7 that morning? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Are you able to tell by 10 looking at that -- 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : -- sheet? How does that 13 work? How do you find out who was in R&D for 14 that day? On that morning. 15 MR. : That's the custody roster. 16 I'm not sure. 17 MR. : So, that's a different 18 roster? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : What would that roster be 21 called? 22 MR. : I don't know. 23 MR. : You're not sure? 24 MR. : That's not our department. 25 MR. : Okay. So, did they come EFTA00111047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 and retrieve those individuals from the SHU, or 2 does the SHU staff bring them to R&D? 3 MR. : It depends. If it's busy, 4 you say, hey, I need help, they go up and help 5 you out. If not, the SHU crew, all right, take 6 them down. 7 MR. : So, if it were at a non- 8 busy traditional way, who would have been the 9 people on that roster? 10 MR. : The SHU crew. 11 MR. : And who on that day? 12 MR. : You mean, for the court 13 movements? 14 MR. : Yeah. Like, what time? 15 First of all, I guess I should say. 16 MR. : It depends - that's what I'm 17 saying - so, it depends on if they're going to 18 Brooklyn, or wherever, you start early at 6:00. 19 So, that would morning watch or day watch. 20 MR. : So, it would be one or 21 the other? And does not - let's say if it was 22 8:00 a.m., who would have it been? 23 MR. : The day watch crew. 24 MR. : And who was on day watch 25 that day? EFTA00111048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Hmm. -. 2 3 MR. : And anybody - any of 4 those people - do you remember speaking about 5 Reyes? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : All right. And who was 8 the OIC? Who was the officer-in-charge, out of 9 that crew? 10 MR. : Hmm. 11 MR. -: was? Not 12 MR. : According to this, it was 13 14 MR. : Okay. So, on the 15 document, it's All right. I'm going 16 to show you a memo that was written by 17 on August 12, 2019. And it's the subject is, 18 "Pass information from Special Housing Unit." 19 It says, "On Friday, August 9, 2019, at 20 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SIS 21 passed on to oncoming staff, officers and 22 present shift staff, SIS , and Officer 23 , that inmate Reyes was going WAB, and 24 possibly may not return. Also, that inmate 25 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival EFTA00111049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 from his attorney visit." So, does that 2 refresh your memory? Did you have any 3 conversations with 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : Who would have made 6 aware that Reyes was going WAB? 7 MR. : He could see it on the 8 roster. They send a sheet up the night before. 9 MR. : So, if that's not on the 10 night before, if on the night before, there's 11 no WAB - and this is at 1:50 p.m. that this 12 notification was made note - if there's no WAB 13 Well first of all what's WAB stand for? 14 MR. : With All Belongings. 15 MR. : And if WAB is not next to 16 Reyes' name on the night before, the August 8th 17 roster, how would have he become aware at 18 around 1:50? Would normally the court call 19 R&D, and R&D pass that information along? 20 MR. : R&D could have called him. 21 MR. : So, would R&D call SHU 22 directly, or would they typically call the ops 23 or activities' lieutenant? 24 MR. : They call the SHU. 25 MR. : They do call SHU EFTA00111050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 directly? They wouldn't call you guys, and you 2 would have to the pass information on? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : Okay. So, is it your 5 belief, then, that if it's that, in fact, what 6 happened, if Reyes went to court, and then he 7 became WAB? Just tell me, what is your 8 understanding -- 9 MR. : I'm not sure how that one. 10 MR. : -- of how that would 11 work? 12 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 13 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying, 14 specifically, how he got it. What would be the 15 typical way that would work? If an inmate 16 MR. : If an inmate -. 17 MR. : -- goes to work -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- and then is released. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : How does that process 22 work? Once that inmate is released, what 23 happens from that point, for the court, how do 24 they make the notifications known to the MCC, 25 all the way down to where that inmate was EFTA00111051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 housed? Specifically, this one in the SHU. 2 MR. : R&D. Hey, that guy's not 3 coming back. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And then, would they 7 typically say, now WAB, would that be the words 8 that they would use, or would they say, he's 9 not coming back? 10 MR. : Either/or. The WAB is 11 something that's on the roster. 12 MR. : Okay. So, is WAB 13 specific to the roster, or is WAS also if he 14 was called and told? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. I don't know. 16 I've seen it before on the roster. Like, hey, 17 this is the court list. It says WAB. 18 MR. : Right. And I'm saying -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. -- in this circumstance, 21 if there is no WAS -- 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : -- next to Reyes' name 24 MR. : I'm not sure. 25 MR. : -- okay. But you didn't EFTA00111052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have any conversations with 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No? And you seem pretty 4 confident with that. Not like I can't recall. 5 You did not have any conversations with 6 7 MR. : Yeah, I had no conversations 8 with him. 9 MR. : What about with 10 Did you have any conversations with abou - 11 Reyes going WAB or not coming back? 12 MR. Pfft, I can't recall that, 13 either. 14 MR. : Did you know that Reyes 15 had left that day for court? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : So then, therefore, did 18 you not know that he was not coming back? 19 MR. : No, I didn't know. No. 20 MR. : Okay. And you don't 21 remember if you actually did a round in the SHU 22 to see that he wasn't there? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, can you recall any 25 conversations you had that day about Reyes? EFTA00111053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I don't think I had no 2 conversations about Reyes. 3 MR. : That's what I'm asking. 4 So, you can't recall any conversations you had 5 that day about Reyes? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : And you don't think you 8 had any? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : No? Okay. All right. 11 We're going to continue with this. 12 MR. : I've got -- 13 MR. : Go ahead. 14 MR. : -- so, just to clarification. 15 The night before, how would MCC get to know 16 that Reyes is leaving? 17 MR. : Well, like I said, the court 18 list. 19 MR. : The court list. Who creates 20 it? 21 MR. : But sometimes, that's not 22 always accurate. 23 MR. : Who creates that? 24 MR. : Hmm-mm. I guess R&D. 25 MR. : And it doesn't show who's in EFTA00111054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 R&D over there, right? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No. But R&D creates the 4 court list. And what do they do with that 5 court list? 6 MR. : They send it out to all the 7 units. So, you get one. If you're a unit 8 officer, you'll get it and say, okay, I got 9 three guys leaving, because it says WAB. So, 10 you say, hey, wake up, we're packing up, and 11 leaving. 12 MR. : They send the whole list, or 13 they just did the email saying, hey, these are 14 the inmates leaving from here? 15 MR. : Yeah. I've never seen an 16 email. I've just seen the list. 17 MR. : Okay. And it's just, like, a 18 generic email that goes out to everyone? 19 MR. : It's a call list. 20 MR. : But - sorry, I want to 21 make sure that I understood what you just said 22 - is it provided by email, or is it provided by 23 24 MR. : I've never seen it provided 25 by email. EFTA00111055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 MR. : -- so, you've never seen 2 it on email. It's just a list that's provided. 3 So, who - R&D comes and gives it to the SHU? 4 MR. : No. They send it up. 5 MR. : So, Internal comes and 6 gets it? 7 MR. : Internal. Yeah. 8 MR. : So, on this date, would 9 you know who would have been Internal? Who 10 would have provided that list to the SHU? 11 MR. : I see who's Internal, but I'm 12 not - I don't know if they would have provided 13 it. We've got two Internals. 14 MR. : And who are the two 15 Internals? 16 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. 17 *00:48:29) and 18 MR. -: and 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : All right. So, they're 21 the two that typically - you're not saying that 22 they did - but they're typically the people 23 that would have provided the court list? 24 MR. : Yeah. Internal. That's what 25 they usually do. It could have been a EFTA00111056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 sanitation. 2 MR. : Now, isn't the list 3 typically provided the day before, or is it 4 just created the day before? 5 MR. : I don't know. I can't -. 6 it provided the day before? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : It was provided the same day. 9 MR. : It is? 10 MR. : You get about - you get the 11 morning watch the day of. 12 MR. : I was always - I was 13 under the understanding that the night before, 14 on August 8th, they would create the list for 15 the morning, on the August 9th. Do you know -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- was that a correct 18 understanding? 19 MR. : I'm not sure. All I know is, 20 if you're an officer, you get it the day of. 21 MR. : All right. So -. 22 MR. : Because when I was an 23 officer, I used to get it the day of. 24 MR. : All right. And you've 25 worked in the SHU before? EFTA00111057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. So, when you 3 worked in the SHU, it would come in that 4 morning? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Around what time would it 7 arrive? 8 MR. : About 2:00 in the morning. I 9 know that's early. 10 MR. : Oh, super early. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So, it would come in at 13 morning watch. 14 MR. : Yeah. Morning watch. 15 MR. : Okay. And are there 16 people in Internal working at that time, around 17 2:00 a.m.? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And is that the same 20 people you just listed? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, those morning watch 23 individuals are the ones that would probably 24 have provided the court list? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 MR. : And do you know, is that 2 document maintained anywhere? The court list 3 document? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : Is that, like, uploaded 6 in any kind of system? 7 MR. : Not that I know of. 8 MR. : No? So, do you know who 9 you said R&D creates it? 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : But they don't create it 12 in a system. They just -. 13 MR. : I don't know. I mean, that's 14 not my department. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Is there, like, an 18 officer-in-charge of R&D? 19 MR. : Yeah. So, you have a CMC. 20 MR. : And -- 21 MR. : Corrections. 22 MR. : -- do you know who, in 23 August, would have been that person? 24 MR. : In August, no. Because I 25 know the CMC was out for a while. And they got EFTA00111059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 a - they also had a supervisor. 2 MR. : And do you know who that 3 would be? 4 MR. : No. But they had a 5 supervisor. I know that's their position, but 6 I don't know who it is. 7 MR. : And that would be, like, 8 a lieutenant? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Who would -? 11 MR. : Lieutenant is custody. R&D 12 is non-custody. 13 MR. : Explain to me what R&D 14 is, and as far as -. 15 MR. : That's Receiving and 16 Discharge. 17 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 18 MR. : So, they deal with the inmate 19 movement, the inmate courts, the transfers, the 20 self-surrenders. 21 MR. : And you're saying that 22 they're not called lieutenants or anything. 23 What are their titles? 24 MR. : Correctional systems officer. 25 MR. : Correctional systems EFTA00111060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 officers. And, like, a supervisor, would they 2 still be, like -? 3 MR. : Supervisor correctional 4 systems officer. 5 MR. : And would that be, like, 6 a nine or an 11 type of -- 7 MR. : Something like that. 8 MR. : -- position? All right. 9 But they're just outside of, you said custody, 10 underneath -. What is the system that they're 11 underneath? 12 MR. : It's the non-custody and 13 custody. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And they have correctional 16 officer, a correctional worker, as opposed to 17 custody is a correctional officer. 18 MR. : Okay. And who would be - 19 Does the captain also have oversight over 20 them? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Who has oversight over 23 them? Non-custody. 24 MR. : The CMC. They have a 25 supervisor. EFTA00111061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 MR. : What does the CMC mean? 2 MR. : Correctional Management 3 Coordinator. 4 MR. : Okay. And that is 5 outside of the captain's purview? 6 MR. Yup. 7 MR. : And you don't remember 8 who that was, at that time? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Okay. And you said you 11 did not have any conversations at all. So, you 12 didn't have any conversations with about 13 Reyes? 14 MR. : No. Not that I remember. 15 No. 16 MR. : What about with 17 MR. : Hmm. No. 18 MR. : No? But he would have 19 been - he relieved 20 MR. : I can't recall. 21 MR. : No? 22 MR. : Hmm-mm. 23 MR. : And was , do you 24 remember if you had any kind of interaction 25 with her at all on August 9th? EFTA00111062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : No? So, obviously, you 3 can't remember if you had any conversations 4 about Reyes? 5 MR. : No. I don't remember 6 discussing Reyes. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : So, did you ever receive 10 any call around 1:50, or at any time, saying 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : -- that Reyes was going 13 WAB? No? So, at this point in time, obviously, 14 you're saying you didn't know anything at that 15 point in time. Now, after the fact, what do 16 you know about Reyes being removed from the 17 MMC? 18 MR. : I just know he went to court, 19 and never came back. And that was it. 20 MR. : Do you know any 21 information about who was informed that he 22 wasn't coming back? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, even after the fact, 25 you don't know? EFTA00111063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Do you know anything -. 3 I mean, was it at all discussed about, like, 4 hey, somebody dropped the ball there? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? There wasn't even a 7 conversation? 8 MR. : I mean, that's the thing. I 9 don't recall him going - I didn't know he was 10 me personally - didn't know he was going WAB. 11 And I don't think a lot of other people did, 12 either. Yeah. 13 MR. : Did anyone ever ask you 14 about that -- 15 MR. : About Reyes? 16 MR. : -- yeah. 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : Even after? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : So, like, on August 10th, 21 August 11th, August 12th, did anyone come up to 22 you and say, hey, did you know Reyes wasn't 23 coming back? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : And have you ever been EFTA00111064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 interviewed for this matter before? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No? Did you have 4 conversations with people like , or 5 , or anyone, regarding this matter, 6 after Epstein was found? 7 MR. : What matter? 8 MR. : Epstein being found, and 9 not having a cellmate? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : No? You never talked to 12 anybody in the institution about that? 13 MR. : About him not having a 14 cellmate, or are you talking about him being 15 found? 16 MR. : No. About him not having 17 a cellmate. 18 MR. : I mean, not in a -. I mean, 19 we sent a, hey, what happened, or, like, what 20 happened to his cellmate? Oh, he got released. 21 Okay. It was - he said it like that, but 22 nothing -. No. Not like that. 23 MR. : Was it any conversation 24 of, like, hey, why didn't they put a new 25 cellmate with him? EFTA00111065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : No? So, if, at around 3 1:50 -. 4 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 5 That's the time. That's why I'm looking at 6 you, saying 1:50. Yeah. 7 MR. : Yeah. I mean, this is 8 where -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : I'm getting the 1:50, 11 is because -- 12 MR. : Because these guys -- 13 MR. : -- it says 14 MR. -- they go to court -. 15 MR. • knows that, 16 at least by 1:50, he's going WAB. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Should have he 19 communicated with either or about that? 20 MR. : I don't know. I don't know 21 how he communicated with. 22 MR. : No. I'm not asking who 23 he did. I'm asking you, should have he? 24 MR. : I mean, I know when I was 25 OIC, and they give us call it, okay. So, if he EFTA00111066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 didn't say nothing to the lieutenant, I could 2 see why. I mean, you're telling me, I'm the 3 OIC. And okay, I got the notification. 4 MR. : So -. 5 MR. : So, if he didn't pass nothing 6 on, it's -. 7 MR. : Is it abnormal that he 8 didn't pass it on, though? Should have he 9 passed it to you? Because -. 10 MR. : It's not. It's not -. I 11 mean -. 12 MR. : Could have he placed 13 another inmate with someone like Epstein? 14 MR. : I'm not sure because then, 15 again, it says possibly. WABs get cancelled. 16 They get cancelled. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : That's why the 1:50, we don't 19 know until after, like, hey, who is this guy 20 coming back? R&D is open at 8:00, 9:00. 21 MR. : So, about what time would 22 they normally make that notification that, okay 23 -? 24 MR. : After 4:00. 25 MR. : After 4:00? EFTA00111067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : And is it some - when you 3 say after 4:00 - is it usually between 4:00 and 4 5:00? 5 MR. : After 4:00. Any time after 6 4:00. 7 MR. : So, anywhere from 4:00 to 8 5:00, 4:00 to 6:00, 4:00 to 8:00. What -? 9 MR. : After the count. 10 MR. : So, after the 4:00 p.m. 11 count. 12 MR. : After the 4:00 p.m. count. 13 MR. : And why is it after the 14 count? 15 MR. : Because that's when the guys 16 come back, after the count. We do the 4:00 17 count. And then, you get an (Indiscernible 18 *00:56:31) base count training is like this. 19 You get 20 guys came back from court, this WAB 20 got cancelled. 21 MR. : So, as far as the 4:00 22 count, or is it at that point, do people start 23 saying, where are these guys, and start making 24 calls, are they coming back or not? 25 MR. : At 4:00? No. EFTA00111068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 MR. : No? So, when is the next 2 time that they would be listed on that count? 3 MR. : The 9:00 count. 4 MR. : The 10:00 count? 5 MR. : Oh, the 10:00 count. Yeah. 6 MR. : Do you want to ask some 7 more questions on that line? I'm just trying to 8 Because I thought it was at - I felt people 9 have told at 4:00, that's when they start 10 making calls to say, is this guy coming back or 11 not. That's not your understanding? 12 MR. : Why would you make a call at 13 4:00? 14 MR. : Because you've got to 15 know if they're coming back to the unit or not 16 coming back. 17 MR. : Well, the count, 3:45 is 18 over. So, you're in the unit or not. So, at 19 4:00, we do the count. After the count, that's 20 when the guys come in from court. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : That's when we get the guys 23 coming back to SHU and going back to their 24 units. 25 MR. : And would you be - would EFTA00111069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 anybody be notified, prior to 4:00, that people 2 were, or were not, coming back? 3 MR. : Not to my understanding. No. 4 MR. : All right. So, to your 5 understanding, it's not until 4:00 or later, 6 that this, you know, people would know Reyes 7 was not coming back? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : All right. So, if Reyes 10 doesn't come back after 4:00 p.m., who, on that 11 daily assignment roster, would be responsible 12 for making notifications, or determining that 13 Epstein needed a cellmate? 14 MR. : I mean, the notification is 15 here. We already have the notification. 16 MR. : Yeah. I know you're 17 pointing to the email that says that he 18 requires to have a cellmate. What I'm asking 19 is, okay, now 4:00 on, at some point after 20 4:00, you're saying Reyes - it's known that 21 Reyes is now not coming back. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Not - possibly not coming 24 back, but he's not coming back. Who would be 25 responsible for placing - for making EFTA00111070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 notifications that, hey, Reyes is out, Epstein 2 does not have a cellmate, we need to start 3 making some notifications? 4 MR. : I mean, I don't know. 5 There's no notifications. That's if he doesn't 6 have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate. 7 MR. : Yeah. So, what I'm 8 saying is -. 9 MR. : But the lieutenant is not 10 saying, hey, by the way, you know? If they 11 catch it, they'll say it, but if they don't -. 12 MR. : And I'm not saying it's - 13 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- a lieutenant's 16 responsibility. What I'm asking is, whose 17 responsibility is it? 18 MR. : To say, hey, this guy, get 19 him a cellmate, or make a notification? 20 MR. : Yes. Like, who would be 21 the first one to know that Reyes is no longer 22 there? Would it be the SHU? 23 MR. : I'd say R&D. 24 MR. : So, R&D would be there. 25 What is R&D's responsibility, at that point? EFTA00111071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : Oh, hey, we've got all the 2 inmates back. It's such and such. And that's 3 it. You ain't get him? Then they're not coming 4 back. They're gone. 5 MR. : But would R&D be 6 responsible for saying, hey, SHU, Reyes isn't 7 coming back, or would they say, hey, ops 8 lieutenant, Reyes isn't coming back. Who would 9 R&D notify? 10 MR. : I'm not sure. In the past, I 11 would say they calling SHU directly. 12 MR. : SHU directly? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : All right. So, in the 15 SHU, after 4:00, who was working? 16 MR. -: , Noel, and 17 MR. -: , Noel, and 18 Are they the only three there? 19 MR. : That's the only three listed. 20 MR. : Okay. So, one of those 21 three were likely notified? 22 MR. : I'm not sure. 23 MR. : Okay. And if they 24 weren't notified, at what point would they know 25 Reyes isn't coming back? EFTA00111072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I'll say about 8:00. 2 MR. : And how would they be 3 notified? 4 MR. : Because usually, all the 5 inmates are by then, you know, talking to the 6 lieutenant, hey, is anyone else down there? 7 That's like a (Indiscernible *01:00:27) call. 8 MR. : Is there some point when 9 they should be saying, hey, this guy left at 10 8:00 this morning, he's still not back? 11 MR. : No. You said, is it at some 12 point? Yeah. 13 MR. : So, and at what point is 14 that? Is it during a count? Or is it just - is 15 there, like, you know, duties that they're 16 doing prior to the count, where they've got to 17 make sure people are there? How does that work? 18 MR. : I mean -. 19 MR. : You've worked in the SHU, 20 so from your recollection, from when you worked 21 in the SHU, how would that work? Especially 22 being that MCC is a jail, not a prison, where 23 people could, at any time, be released or 24 moved. How does that work in the SHU? 25 MR. : I used to have, like, that, I EFTA00111073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 think, set by 8:00. 2 MR. : I'm sorry. What did you 3 say about 8:00? 4 MR. : By 8:00, is when I say, hey, 5 is anyone else coming up? And this is the base 6 count. Like, I want to get everything straight 7 in the computer. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : I'll say by 8:00. 10 MR. : And on that date, when 11 those three people were working, who would 12 typically be responsible for doing something 13 like that? Is it, like, SHU one, SHU two, two 14 three, or is it just anybody, any one of them, 15 or how does that work? 16 MR. : To do what? 17 MR. : To say, like, hey, we've 18 got to make sure our base count is correct. 19 MR. : I mean, it could be any one 20 of them. 21 MR. : Any one of them? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : But it's not like 24 someone's job? It's just someone should take 25 that role. EFTA00111074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MR. : I mean, but they've got to 2 have the base count right, for the 10:00 count. 3 MR. : So, one of those people 4 should have got the base count right, but it's 5 not one specific person's duty? Or is it 6 something that they're supposed to collaborate 7 on all together? 8 MR. : I mean, it depends. It 9 depends. If you're working, hey, such and such 10 (Indiscernible *01:02:01). If you're number 11 two, you know, you go to the board, you could 12 change it yourself. You know, the OIC. All 13 right, you know, making sure everything is in 14 order. 15 MR. : Was there an OIC on that 16 night? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Who? 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : So, was the OIC? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : So, technically, he's 23 probably the one who should have been 24 responsible to catch the fact that their base 25 count changed, and he wasn't coming back? EFTA00111075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 2 Because he was non-custody. I'm not sure. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Because, you see, he's non- 5 custody. Mine was bon-custody. He's just up 6 there for overtime. So, I'm not sure. 7 MR. : Okay. Now, as far the 8 lieutenants' job. So, at that point in time, 9 it was that was the ops, and hat 10 was the activities. What is their role in 11 ensuring that Reyes is, one, back; and two, 12 Epstein is placed with a new cellmate? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Do they have any role? Or 15 is it all on the SHU? 16 MR. : I mean, it's - they don't 17 have a role. You know, it's -. 18 MR. : What about when they're 19 conducting their rounds, as part of their 20 responsibility to say, to check that kind of 21 stuff, or is it just to see what inmates are 22 there, and that the inmates that are there, are 23 okay? 24 MR. : Pretty much. You've got to 25 do a round. EFTA00111076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MR. : Does that round entail 2 verifying that Epstein has a cellmate and Reyes 3 isn't there? 4 MR. : I'm not sure of that. We 5 just know we do our rounds. 6 MR. : So, that goes back to, 7 what does a round entail? Does that mean that 8 you need to verify that the people that are on 9 the books are there, and other people are 10 removed? 11 MR. : Yes, with staff and 12 accountability. For the most part. You know? 13 Inmates banging, hey, all right, I'll be up, 14 doing my round. I'll deal with this when I get 15 up there. 16 MR. : But when you say for 17 accountability, what does that entail? 18 MR. : Presence of inmates, 19 depending on who goes up there. They know, 20 okay, this is on - they try certain things, 21 they won't try certain things. 22 MR. : Are you comparing a list 23 of the inmates that you know to be in the SHU, 24 with who's actually in the SHU? 25 MR. : No. Not for a round. No. EFTA00111077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 MR. : No? All right. So, as 2 far as a round conducted by a lieutenant, would 3 they know - would they be able to figure out 4 that Reyes was removed? 5 MR. : Depending on what time the 6 round was. 7 MR. : And can you give me more 8 explanation? What time would that change? 9 MR. : If I do an early round, and 10 Epstein's in a cell by his self, okay, I still 11 have time, still doing court movements, and it 12 raise no suspicion or no alarm. 13 MR. : Okay. So, about what 14 time would there be a suspicion or alarm that 15 be raised? 16 MR. : I told you. At about 8:00. 17 MR. : 8:00? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Because Reyes hasn't been 20 back? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Okay. Were you ever 23 provided any instructions on what actions 24 should be taken if Reyes was removed as 25 Epstein's cellmate? EFTA00111078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : What actions should have 3 been taken once Reyes was removed? 4 MR. Hmm. Honestly, I mean, like 5 I said, we bunk all the inmates together. So, 6 if he were to move, look for him a new bunkie. 7 MR. : And is that something - 8 should have they notified - when they say look 9 for a new bunkie, I'm assuming you're talking 10 about the people in the SHU? 11 MR. : Yeah. A new cellmate. Yeah. 12 MR. : So, I think you said 13 , and Noel? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Could have they placed 16 him with a new cellmate, or would have they had 17 you make notification to the ops and/or 18 activities' lieutenant? 19 MR. : You know, they don't need to 20 make notification. 21 MR. : What about when someone 22 is high-profile as an inmate as Epstein? 23 MR. : No, he didn't make 24 notification. 25 MR. : So, you don't think that EFTA00111079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 they would have. Do you know if Epstein's 2 cellmates were vetted by the captain and above? 3 MR. : I think I heard something 4 like that. I think so. 5 MR. : Now, does that play into 6 that answer? About if they could have just 7 placed anyone with him? 8 MR. : I'm not sure. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : But I think someone vetted 11 like that, pre-approved or something like that. 12 I think - I'm not sure - but I think I did hear 13 something like that. 14 MR. : Okay. But to your 15 knowledge, they could have placed anyone with 16 him? Not anyone, but, like, they could have 17 placed a new inmate with him. 18 MR. : Yeah, they could have. 19 MR. : Okay. Should have they? 20 MR. : I'm not sure. Like you said, 21 the whole vetted thing, yeah. I'm not sure. 22 MR. : So, if they knew that 23 Reyes was vetted, and was placed with him, at 24 that point, should have they done anything 25 else? Such as called the lieutenant to say, EFTA00111080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 hey, he's not back, we need to get him a new 2 celimate. Can I place someone with him, or 3 should have they just taken action on their 4 own? 5 MR. : I don't know. 6 MR. : If you were - I know you 7 were day watch - but if you were evening watch, 8 would of you expected them to notify you? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, in this case, should 11 have they notified or should have they 12 notified , or either of them? 13 MR. : I'm not sure. 14 MR. : Should have -. 15 MR. : That was non-custody. 16 MR. : Should have the person 17 notified them by telephone, or when one of 18 those lieutenants did their rounds? 19 MR. : You said should they have? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : If they would have? Yeah, 22 either/or. Both. Call, email, whatever. 23 MR. : Now, someone like -. So, 24 was the activities' lieutenant that 25 night, correct? EFTA00111081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Since she was not a 3 lieutenant, she was an SIS, do you feel that 4 she had the knowledge and capabilities to be 5 able to do that job, at that time? 6 MR. : What job are you talking 7 about? 8 MR. : Activities' lieutenant. 9 MR. : Yeah. I think she was 10 training, right? 11 MR. : Well, I -. 12 MR. : I think she was training. 13 It's that temporary post, right? 14 MR. : So -. 15 MR. : Yeah, but that still wouldn't 16 be on her, though. 17 MR. : If she's the one who did 18 a round in the SHU for her shift. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Is that something that 21 she should have checked on? Hey, where's Reyes? 22 There's nobody in -. Because not only - I 23 mean, everyone knows what cellmate Epstein is 24 in. So, even if Epstein's not in there, and 25 he's still down at attorney conference, nobody EFTA00111082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 is in there. So, shouldn't that have been 2 something that you'd say, hey, where is this 3 guy? Is he coming back? Should that be 4 something that was -? 5 MR. : That kind of depends on the 6 time. 7 MR. : And when you're saying 8 that you just mean because he possibly could be 9 coming back? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : But if no one is there, 12 and she knows he's out at court, shouldn't she 13 at least have followed up on, hey, anybody 14 check on his? Is he coming back? 15 MR. : Well, that's R&D. R&D 16 notifies us if they're coming back or not. 17 MR. : All right. So, when 18 doing rounds, that's not something being that, 19 hey, we've got to make sure that Epstein has a 20 cellmate. Not something that should be, like, 21 a, hey, nobody's in Epstein's cell. What's 22 going on there? 23 MR. : I mean, that's what I'm 24 saying. We get this notice, not just with 25 Epstein, with every inmate -- EFTA00111083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- that comes on suicide 3 watch. 4 MR. : So, did you ever see - 5 when you were visiting the cell - did you ever 6 see this sign up in the SHU? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : And I'm showing you a 9 colored note, saying, "Mandatory rounds must be 10 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, number 11 76318-054, as per guide." 12 MR. : Nah. 13 MR. : You never noticed that? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : All right. So, that's 16 nothing you ever saw in any of your times 17 visiting there? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : All right. If that was 20 up - sorry. 21 MR. : Sorry. 22 MR. : Please. 23 MR. : No, no. If you have. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : I have a -- EFTA00111084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No, no, no. 2 MR. : I have a funny joke, 3 that's why. 4 MR. : I was just going to say, 5 if that is up for people to see, doing rounds 6 in the SHU, does that change any of those 7 answers of, hey, where is Epstein's cellmate? 8 MR. : I mean, this is - if it's 9 rounds - that's something different than me 10 saying single bunk. So, if they're saying 11 we're doing rounds on them, that wouldn't make 12 them to think about, why is this guy - where is 13 his bunkie? 14 MR. : You don't think so? So, 15 if you're actually looking into his cell and 16 saying, you know he needs a bunkie, I'm looking 17 in his cell, and there is no one else with him, 18 you don't think that those are correlated? 19 MR. : Yeah, but not because of 20 this. No. That's just saying rounds, hey, 21 make sure you do your rounds. 22 MR. : It says specifically -- 23 MR. : Than when it's not -- 24 MR. : -- rounds on -? 25 MR. : -- yea, but normal, it's not EFTA00111085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 going to think just because - it's not going to 2 mix this with this. 3 MR. : So, even though they're 4 looking in on Epstein, seeing that he's not - 5 he's by himself, that won't alert them to the 6 fact -? 7 MR. : No. Not that sign. No. 8 MR. : No? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : You don't think so? 11 MR. : It says, "Mandatory rounds." 12 MR. : Do you know of any other 13 signs that were in the SHU, saying that he was 14 required to have a cellmate? 15 MR. : Hmm. I can't recall. 16 MR. : What about the hot list? 17 Tell me about, what is a hot list? 18 MR. : The hot list is inmates who 19 have suicidal behavior or attempts in the past. 20 MR. : And people on the hot 21 list, are they required to have a cellmate? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Do you remember seeing 24 the hot list that was in the SHU? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Is that as part, as a 2 lieutenant, would they check out the hot list 3 when they would go down there? 4 MR. : No. We would just - no - we 5 would just check to see if it's updated. 6 MR. : Okay. So, Epstein's 7 listed on the hot list. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : What does that, then, 10 tell these people working in the SHU? 11 MR. : He needs a cellmate. 12 MR. : And do all of them know, 13 if Epstein's on the hot list, those people need 14 cellmates? 15 MR. : I'm not sure if all of them 16 knew. 17 MR. : But are they supposed to? 18 MR. : I don't know. Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. So, you feel 20 like the hot list is even more important than 21 the sign I just showed you, for cellmate 22 purposes? 23 MR. : This sign? Where the sign 24 come from? 25 MR. : If this sign was in the EFTA00111087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 SHU -- 2 MR. : You said "if"? 3 MR. : -- well, I'm not saying 4 I can't say if - yeah - I can't tell you -- 5 MR. : Oh. 6 MR. : -- exactly what is and 7 what isn't. I'm just saying, assuming that 8 this was in the SHU. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : What was your question? 11 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 12 This, I don't think this was up there. 13 MR. : You don't think that was 14 in the SHU? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Because -. 17 MR. : I mean, not in no tier or 18 nothing like that. 19 MR. : Okay. But around, like, 20 the officers -? 21 MR. : The hot list is up there, 22 though. 23 MR. : But what about, like, up 24 on, like, the desk area? Would you be around 25 the officer's desk area? EFTA00111088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : Hmm. I mean, if I had to. 2 MR. : But you didn't notice 3 that -- 4 MR. : But not normally. 5 MR. : -- in the desk area? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : All right. Where would 8 the hot list be located? 9 MR. : So, behind the desks, like, a 10 wall we have, that we keep it up there. 11 MR. : All right. And they're 12 supposed to be checking that, and making sure 13 those people are, one) checked on, and two) 14 have cellmates? Is that the purpose? 15 MR. : The hot list is just any - 16 it's pretty much any inmate that comes from the 17 housing unit. They come from the housing unit. 18 This guy psych alert, hey, make sure this guy 19 gets a bunkie. That's the initial check. 20 That's what the hot list is for. 21 MR. : And are they supposed to 22 check that list every day, to make those same - 23 24 MR. : I mean, you don't - no, you 25 get up there, it's, hey, on the suicide watch, EFTA00111089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 is he on the hot list? So, it's not common to 2 check it every day. No. 3 MR. : All right. So, it's not 4 common to check it every day? 5 MR. : Every day, no. Unless it's 6 updated. 7 MR. : Only when it's updated, 8 you check it. 9 MR. : Yeah, if the guy is still on 10 it. 11 MR. : But wouldn't - again, the 12 fact that the MCC is a jail, not a prison - 13 wouldn't it be pretty regular that people are 14 being moved in and out? 15 MR. : Not on the hot list. 16 MR. : No, but the people that 17 they're bunked with. If they're required to 18 have a cellmate -- 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- wouldn't it be pretty 21 regular that they would have to - their 22 cellmates might be leaving? Because if it's a 23 jail, not a prison. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, that's what I'm EFTA00111090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 saying. So, how are they always ensuring that 2 those people that are required to have 3 cellmates have cellmates? 4 MR. : That's when you say, hey, I 5 got a single cell up there. 6 MR. : And at what point is that 7 reviewed? 8 MR. : The single cells? 9 MR. : Yeah. Is that supposed 10 to be a daily occurrence? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : And is that - what time 13 is that? The 8:00 time that you're talking 14 about? 15 MR. : No. Usually, that's in the 16 morning. So, like, if I come in, hey, you 17 know, I'm going to - who's in the single cell? 18 You know? 19 MR. : Well, what about -. 20 MR. : At night, it's just not -. 21 At night, it's -. 22 MR. : Even when people are left 23 during the day, and then come back from court? 24 Some people come back, some people don't. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : Wouldn't that be another 2 time that they do it, or they don't do it at 3 that time? 4 MR. : I mean, I mean, like I said, 5 after that cut off time, that's when you start 6 saying, okay, we've got a single cell, of such 7 and such. Then again, remember, MCC get 8 inmates throughout the night. 9 MR. : They do? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Placed in the SHU? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 14 work that night. Do you know of any people 15 that were placed in the SHU that night, on 16 August 9th? 17 MR. : No. Not according to this, 18 no. 19 MR. : And did you conduct any 20 counts or rounds in the SHU on August 9th? 21 MR. : I can't recall. 22 MR. : And what is the purpose? 23 Why do COs conduct counts and rounds in the 24 SHU? 25 MR. : To make sure they're alive. EFTA00111092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : Is it also to make sure 2 everyone is there? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And are cells and counts 5 - are counts and rounds documented? 6 MR. Yup. 7 MR. : And how 8 MR. : Probably. 9 MR. : -- how are they 10 documented? 11 MR. : 30-minute log in in TruScope. 12 MR. : So, 30-minute log for 13 rounds? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what is the TruScope? 16 MR. : Rounds. 17 MR. : That's rounds, as well? 18 MR. : You put rounds in there, too, 19 but all the counts. 20 MR. : So, counts -- 21 MR. : Mainly counts, yeah. 22 MR. : -- so, are counts also 23 are there, like, little slips that are filled 24 out? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : Who fills them out? 2 MR. : All the officers. 3 MR. : And what do they do with 4 them? 5 MR. : Give it to Internal. 6 MR. : And does Internal come to 7 the SHU, or does the SHU go to Internal? 8 MR. : It depends. 9 Not before this incident. 10 MR. -: MR. : Or it does 11 it both ways? 12 MR. : Both ways. Just get it to 13 control. 14 MR. : Okay. Do all COs who 15 work in the SHU know how to properly conduct 16 and report counts and rounds? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. 18 MR. : Should they know how to 19 conduct counts and rounds? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And how should they know? 22 MR. : Training. 23 MR. : And do you think everyone 24 there got enough training to know how to do a 25 count and a round? EFTA00111094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Did you ever hear of 3 people, like, filling out count slips, or round 4 sheets? Either before, or at the very start of 5 their shift, for their entire shift, or at the 6 end of the shift for their entire shift? 7 MR. : Not before this incident. 8 MR. : Did you hear about that 9 after this incident? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : What did you hear about 12 that? 13 MR. : That they didn't count. 14 mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't 15 counted. Wasn't making rounds. 16 MR. : And who was it that you 17 heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds? 18 MR. : Thomas and Noel. 19 MR. : Anybody else in there? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : Did you hear anything 22 about counts and rounds not being conducted 23 prior to midnight on August 10th? So, any time 24 on August 9th, did you hear about any of those 25 counts and rounds not being conducted? EFTA00111095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : On the watch then? 2 MR. : Any time on August 9th. 3 So, this date. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : Even after the fact, you 6 never heard about, like, the 10:00 p.m. count, 7 or the 4:00 p.m. count, the counts not being 8 conducted? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : You haven't heard that? 11 MR. : No. I don't know. Not that 12 I know of. Some, what, counts on these days? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : No. You have the 4:00 count. 15 You have the 10:00 count. Yeah, the midnight 16 count. Yeah. 17 MR. : Right. So, what I'm 18 asking, did you -- 19 MR. : Have I heard that -- 20 MR. : -- did you hear 21 MR. -- 4:00 and 10:00 -- 22 MR. : -- that (Indiscernible 23 *01:18:33) -- 24 MR. : -- wasn't done? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00111096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Now, do lieutenants sign 3 the counts or the rounds? 4 MR. : The rounds. Not the counts. 5 MR. : So, what is the 6 lieutenants' responsibility for signing the 7 round sheets? 8 MR. : Making sure they're in 9 compliance with the policy. 10 MR. : All right. And do they 11 have to - is there any way for them to verify 12 if, like, the rounds were actually done? 13 MR. Hmm. No. Unless you're 14 doing a - checking a video. 15 MR. : You just - is what you do 16 is just to make sure that the - it's actually 17 filled out? 18 MR. : Correctly. 19 MR. : Correctly filled out? All 20 right. I'm going to - I apologize for this, 21 it's gotten a little longer - so, I'm going to 22 show you. What is this that I'm showing you? 23 MR. : It's a round sheet. 24 MR. : All right. And what is 25 the round sheet from? EFTA00111097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : The 9th. 2 MR. : The 9th. Did you have 3 anything - well, as the activities' lieutenant 4 - would of you had anything to do with signing 5 off on any of these? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Which ones would of you 8 signed off on? 9 MR. : Day watch. 10 MR. : Okay. And are you on 11 that? Did you sign any of that? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Where is your signature? 14 MR. : On the day shift. 15 MR. : So, that's your actual 16 signature? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Is that for the SHU? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Who else signed that? 21 MR. : The officer. 22 MR. : Which officer? 23 MR. : I'm not sure. 24 MR. : You can't tell by looking 25 at that? EFTA00111098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : All right. And around 3 what time would of you signed that? Do you 4 know? 5 MR. : Some time on my shift. 6 MR. : All right. So, does that 7 indicate that you would have, then, conducted a 8 round in the SHU? 9 MR. : I'm not sure. 10 MR. : Would of you signed that 11 in the SHU? 12 MR. : Honestly, I'm not sure. 13 MR. : How else would of you 14 gotten it? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : So, is the SHU sheet ever 17 sent outside of the SHU for the lieutenant to 18 sign? 19 MR. : I'm not sure. I can't recs.: 20 on this day. 21 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 22 like, have you ever signed one of these round 23 sheets outside of the SHU? 24 MR. : I'm not sure. 25 MR. : Or is it typically that EFTA00111099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the SHU? 2 Because aren't they maintained in the SHU? 3 MR. : Typically, that's what would 4 happen. 5 MR. : So, typically, you would 6 have signed this in the SHU. Correct? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : And would of you signed 9 this after the last one was filled out? I'm 10 assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you 11 signed it, would they? 12 13 14 2:07. Wouldn't that typically mean that you 15 would have been there at least 2:00? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. 17 MR. : But by looking at this 18 document, does that indicate to you, that if 19 you signed it, you would have signed it? Do you 20 ever sign -. Are these continued to be filled 21 out after the - sorry - after the lieutenant 22 signs it? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So, even for day watch 25 right here? MR. : I'm not sure. MR. : So, this one says 2:05, EFTA00111100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So, you can sign it at 3 any point during this, and then, they continue 4 to fill it out? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : All right. And that's 7 what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't 8 know. So, I'm asking. 9 MR. : I mean, it's eight hours. 10 MR. : So, at any point, from 11 8:00 a.m. until basically 2:07 p.m., you could 12 have signed that? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. And these are 15 genuine questions. They're not I trick you. 16 I'm just asking -- 17 MR. : No. I understand. But it 18 does seem like that, is what I'm saying. 19 MR. : And then, I'm not -- 20 MR. : That's what I'm saying, like 21 22 MR. : I promise you, I'm 23 just asking, like, this isn't, like, an "I 24 gotcha" moment. There's no -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00111101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I gotcha moments in 114 2 this. This is just asking for your, like, your 3 recollection on this. 4 MR. : Yeah, I understand that. But 5 that's why I said, I'm not sure about that. I 6 don't know when I signed it. 7 MR. : All right. And that's 8 so, what I'm asking you, like, is this 9 something, typically, that you would have done? 10 And again, it's not an I gotcha. 11 MR. : Yeah. But again -- 12 MR. : It's just, it's a genuine 13 14 MR. : I'm not sure. 15 MR. : -- but so, you don't know 16 if -. But so, most of the time, I mean, these 17 are maintained in the SHU, and this is - again 18 - this is our learning experience, by talking 19 to people like you, lieutenants -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- that were there. 22 It's, again, not an "I gotcha." It's trying to 23 figure out, how does this process work? 24 MR. : But also, I'm not trying to 25 incriminate myself. EFTA00111102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : I got -. 2 MR. : Or nothing. That's what I'm 3 saying. I'm not sure. 4 MR. : But what I'm asking, I 5 guess, is just - and I don't even know what 6 there would be to incriminate you with - but, 7 like, what I'm asking is, like, how does this 8 process work? If you give this person a round 9 sheet, are these round sheets signed in the 10 SHU? 11 MR. : Typically. 12 MR. : Typically. All right. 13 And are you aware of them ever not being signed 14 in the SHU? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. Not that 16 know of, no. 17 MR. : All right. So, at least 18 more likely than not, you signed this document 19 in the SHU, at some point, between 8:00 and 20 2:00 p.m.? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, that means you 23 probably did a round in there? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. And if it was EFTA00111103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 between 8:00 and 2:00 p.m., both Reyes and 2 Epstein were not in their cell at that time, 3 then, correct? 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : I mean, this isn't, like 6 - again - an I gotcha. I'm just trying to 7 figure out, like, where you fall in this whole 8 thing. 9 MR. : So, that's what I'm trying to 10 figure out. Where do I fall in this whole 11 thing? 12 MR. : Because this is your 13 idea. That's what we're We're talking to 14 you just specifically about, all right, Reyes 15 was gone, at some point, he goes WAB. We 16 don't know -. 17 MR. : So, you're trying to say 18 who's to blame for it, or -? 19 MR. : Well, it's also just trying 20 to figure out what happened. We've got to talk 21 to -. 22 MR. : He left. And that's what 23 happened. 24 MR. : Right. And you, when you 25 were there, there was no conversations that you EFTA00111104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 had with anyone? 2 MR. : No conspiracy. No. It's not 3 4 MR. : No, no, no, and we're not 5 asking -- 6 MR. -- nothing like that. 7 MR. : -- for a conspiracy. 8 It's just, we need to know who, what 9 conversations happened, where, where did the 10 MR. : I didn't know nothing about 11 it until after I saw it in the news. 12 MR. : And this is also me 13 showing you this now is more letting you know, 14 like, okay, that looks like you probably were 15 there. Does that help spark recollection? 16 MR. : I had no conversation with 17 neither one of them that day. Not that I 18 recall. 19 MR. : None of them that day? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : All right. Can you tell, 22 does this look like an RCS to you? 23 MR. : I don't know who -- 24 MR. : Why don't you have a look 25 at this? EFTA00111105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. -- whose signature that is. 2 MR. : All right. So, on day 3 watch, there was a , . As well as . Does that look 5 like any of those people to you? 6 MR. Hmm. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : Okay. All right. So, 8 you do not recall. And as we go, do you mind 9 just initialing or whatever? Okay. You got 10 those, too, if you don't mind initialing this, 11 and this, and this. Now, although it is 12 voluntary, I guess, we do have to just make 13 sure we know, it also has to be the answers are 14 truthful, you're under oath. So, that also 15 so, lack of candor can also be constituted by 16 not providing full information or, like, hiding 17 information. 18 MR. : No. If I remember, it'll - 19 and I don't hide nothing - but if I remember, 20 then I will say it. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : But when you come with these 23 24 MR. : So, it's just -- 25 MR. : -- saying it looks like, hey, EFTA00111106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 by the way -- 2 MR. : -- and again -- 3 MR. yeah, and if I'm, like -. 4 MR. our purpose, you would 5 have been interviewed a lot earlier, if there 6 was, like, you know -- 7 MR. : Yeah, but still -- 8 MR. : -- we're -. 9 MR. -- I know, I know being that 10 day, I know it was a big profile case. Hey, 11 let's get such and such, they fill this, and 12 then -- 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 14 MR. and I'm, like, come on. 15 MR. : And we just need to know, 16 like, as, you know, we've got make sure that, 17 like, hey, what you do remember, you can tell 18 us. Again, it's voluntary, but, like -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- all right. So, these, 21 I'm going to give you these count slips from 22 August 9th up until midnight of August 10th. 23 And is it your understanding that ZA on the 24 count slip, that stands for the SHU? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : All right. Can you just 2 kind of look through those? I'm going to move 3 this aside for you, so the papers don't get 4 kind of mixed up. Actually, I'm just going to 5 give them back to you, 6 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 7 *01:26:40). 8 MR. : (Indiscernible 9 *01:26:40). 10 MR. : So, I look for what? 11 MR. : Oh, that one. 12 MR. : What am I initialing for? To 13 do what? 14 MR. : So, when we initial these 15 things, it's just to say what we showed you. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : It's not to say you're 18 certifying anything, or that you received 19 anything. It's any document we place in you, 20 this is what we do for everybody. We ask them 21 to initial and date this -- 22 MR. : That I've seen this. 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- no, that today you've EFTA00111108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/. 1 seen this, not that you've seen it before 2 today. It's just that, today, while we're 3 talking to you, this is in fact the document 4 that we were talking about. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : It's not certifying its 7 accuracy. It's not saying you saw it before 8 today. It's simply to say that's the document 9 we're discussing right now. 10 MR. : And I'm looking for this 11 MR. : Thank you, sir. 12 MR. -- or -? 13 MR. : So, look at the ZAs, 14 starting. So, you're - what is this one that I 15 gave you? Is that the -. 16 MR. : So, this is the 9th at 5:02. 17 MR. : So, 5:00 a.m. count. 18 MR. : a.m., right? 19 MR. : So, okay, so, I gave you 20 the 5:00 a.m. count on the 9th. Can you just 21 take a look at the numbers? You can look at 22 the - is that - what's this first page called? 23 Is that the El? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. So, look at EFTA00111109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 the El. And then, look at the count slip for 2 ZA. So, when you're looking at El, just make 3 note of what is the number that says on the El, 4 and then, go back to probably the last page, 5 maybe the second to last page, for each, and 6 look at the ZA number, to make sure that it 7 matches with what the El shows. And I just 8 want you to do that for the one 9 MR. : You said the El and the what? 10 MR. : The El and the count slip 11 for ZA. 12 MR. : The count slips are in the 13 back. 14 MR. : should be either the last 15 or the second to last page. And I just -- 16 MR. : Where it's 5:00 in the 17 morning? 18 MR. : -- that's 5:00 in the 19 morning on the 9th. So, what do those numbers 20 show? 21 MR. : In ZA? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : So, 77. 24 MR. : Does it say both of them, 25 77? EFTA00111110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : On the El, yeah. 2 MR. : All right. Cool. Now, 3 you can just initial and date that, and move it 4 aside. Again, these aren't I gotcha moments. 5 These just help us explain some stuff. All 6 right. So, this El, well, can you tell me what 7 it says for the ZA on this one? And this is, 8 what, the 5:00 p.m. count? What is this? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 11 MR. : 4:00 p.m., I mean. 12 MR. : It's 4:00 count. But yeah. 13 So, that ZA is 75. 14 MR. : 75. And the last one was 15 77? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And what does that say? 18 MR. : 75. 19 MR. : All right. 75. Cool. 20 Can you just initial that and put that on the 21 side? And you'll understand the question after 22 you look at these. And again, it's not an I 23 gotcha. It's to help us explain something. 24 All right. 25 MR. : What y'all trying to explain, EFTA00111111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 though? 2 MR. : The count changes, and 3 I'm going to ask you how you can - if there's a 4 way for you to be able to figure out how this 5 count changed. All right. Can you look at the 6 El on here, and compare it to the count slip 7 back there? What is the -? 8 MR. : And it's the 10:00 count, 9 right? 10 MR. : 10:00 p.m. count on 11 August 9th. 12 MR. : Yeah. 73. 13 MR. : 73? On both? And is there 14 a count - does the count slip say something 15 weird on that one? 16 MR. : No, I'm just looking at the 17 seven. 18 MR. : Does it say, like, 19 plus one on there? 20 MR. : Oh, yeah. It does. 21 MR. : Have you ever seen a plus 22 one on any before, or could you understand a 23 reason why someone will put plus one? 24 MR. : Plus one. No. I don't know 25 about a plus one. EFTA00111112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : All right. Now, this is 2 the one that I really want you to look at. 3 Look at this El. This is now August 10th at 4 midnight. Check out what it says for ZA on the 5 El. What number does that say? 6 MR. : 72. 7 MR. : All right. And check out 8 the count slip. 9 MR. : What does the count slip say? 10 MR. : It says 73. 11 MR. : So, 73, but the top one, 12 that was clear, it says 72. Right? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And I'll give you one 15 more, just so it's not a magic trick, look at 16 this page first, for the August 10th, and I 17 have the rest of them, too, if you want to see 18 them, but 3:00 a.m. on August 10th, and then, 19 the last page where it says the count slip. 20 What does it say on the El on the next one? 21 MR. : It says 72. 22 MR. : And on the El. And then, 23 what does the count slip say? 24 MR. : 72. 25 MR. : So, in looking at all EFTA00111113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 this, does that tell you - as a lieutenant and 2 someone who worked in the SHU - does that tell 3 you something? 4 MR. : Yeah, but the thing is, this 5 one had up, though. 6 MR. : That's exactly -- 7 MR. : That way and clear the count. 8 MR. : -- that's exactly right. 9 So, we're trying to figure out where did this 10 count change down the 72? And does it indicate 11 to you that these counts were not actually 12 conducted? And this is not -- 13 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:33:00). 14 MR. : -- and this is not -- 15 MR. : It's the 9:00 count. 16 MR. : -- we have no reason to 17 believe you were involved in this. So, I want 18 to make sure you're -. We're actually just 19 looking for your help here. As someone who 20 worked in the SHU, and as someone that is 21 familiar with these kinds of documents, can you 22 help us put this puzzle together? How - so we 23 have reason to believe that they called in at 24 midnight 73 -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00111114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 MR. : -- and the control 2 lieutenant, who was working that night, figured 3 out there's actually only 72 people in there. 4 They've been calling in 73, but there's only 72 5 people in the SHU. Is there any way, from 6 looking - and that's from this point forward, 7 they're now start -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- calling in 72 - is 10 there any way, from looking at these, you're 11 able to determine, with your knowledge and 12 experience, where that changed? I would say 13 that it changed from the 10:00 count. This was 14 printed at 9:33. So, it has 73. And then, at 15 9:33, attorney conference ain't open. So, 16 Epstein would have probably been up by then. 17 He would have went back to the SHU. 18 MR. : So, he would have been 19 listed on -. Epstein would have been back at 20 least by 8:00 p.m., right? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, that would have 23 MR. : So, he should have been on 24 this count. 25 MR. : -- he should have been on EFTA00111115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 this one. 2 MR. : So, he threw it, yeah. 3 MR. : And can you see where on 4 the - let's talk about, I guess, what's the one 5 before? The 5:00 p.m.? The 4:00 p.m.? 6 MR. : Yeah, he would have been at 7 attorney conference. Yeah. 8 MR. : And it would have showed 9 him at attorney conference on one of these, 10 correct? On the El? 11 MR. : Yeah. At 3:00, at attorney 12 conference. Well, from SHU. 13 MR. : And then, does it show 14 that he's already in SHU in this one? Is there 15 any way an attorney conference at the 10:00 16 p.m. count? 17 MR. : No. But see, what I was 18 telling you before about the numbers, see how I 19 had 76? 20 MR. : Yup. 21 MR. : And this is at the 4:00 22 count. And then, it went down to 73? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, you don't know until 25 after the count, about the whole cellmate EFTA00111116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 coming back. 2 MR. : Right. But then, the 3 weird part about it is going from 73 to 72, 4 with no movement. 5 MR. : So, we don't know, okay, 6 so, they're taking off, you know, if they're 7 going from - what does it say? 76? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Down to 73. That's three 10 people, and one person vanishes. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : When it gets to 72. Are 13 you able to tell where that person vanished 14 from, or is it impossible because, possibly, 15 all of these counts were not conducted, and 16 that's - I know you weren't here for any of 17 these counts, apparently, so it's, again, I'm 18 just asking for your guidance - is that 19 correct? You weren't even working when any of 20 these counts were conducted? 21 MR. : Yeah, well, if I was - you 22 said 4:00, right? 23 MR. : Well, you possibly worked 24 up until 4:00. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MR. : But -. 2 MR. : So, I wasn't here. I wasn't 3 there for the count. 4 MR. : Right. So again -- 5 MR. : 76. 6 MR. : I want to reassure you 7 this isn't an I gotcha moment. We're just 8 trying to help -- 9 MR. : No, no, but you know it feels 10 like it. 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah -- 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:36:12). 13 MR. : -- and I get that because 14 you've got special agents talking to you -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- it's just all about 17 trying to piece the puzzle together. So, we 18 need help with people like yourself, to be able 19 to say, what the hell happened? You know what I 20 mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. Well, there's also 22 three here. From (Indiscernible *01:36:28). 23 mean, I think I'm -- 24 MR. : And we've had other -- 25 MR. -- and we hadn't keyed them EFTA00111118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 out, that's what it is. 2 MR. : And you just 3 MR. : Oh, they hadn't keyed them 4 out. But then, they would have keyed them out. 5 R&D leaves at 10:00. They leave at 10:00. 6 Now, they could have left somebody on, and then 7 came out. Because like I said, it's no 8 movement. The only way you get it is you key 9 out. Like, key a guy unless somebody went to 10 the hospital or something. 11 MR. : Yeah, and if there is 12 nothing that happened, but no inmates were 13 moved after 10:00 p.m. If we know that, does 14 this indicate that they were just going off on 15 numbers and just falsifying their counts, or 16 are you able to tell, by looking at these at 17 all -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- if these counts are 20 legit or not? Are you able to kind of, like, 21 give us any insight into that? 22 MR. : I mean, the one with the plus 23 one is a question because I don't see why they 24 would -. Then again, you've got R&D with a 25 plus one, too. I don't know. I don't know EFTA00111119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 what's going on. They got R&D, (Indiscernible 2 *01:37:57) cell plus one. 3 MR. : And by looking at that 4 person in R&D, are you able to tell who that 5 is? 6 MR. : Hmm-mm. 7 MR. : Not by looking at that 8 name? 9 MR. : Not by the name. I mean, 10 there's no outcome. Don't have the out count. 11 MR. : Don't have the out count? 12 Is that what you're saying? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And what time is that 15 for? 16 MR. : Well, I can't - you don't 17 have the out count. 18 MR. : No, what time are you 19 looking at? 20 MR. : This one is for the 10:00. 21 MR. : So, the 10:00 p.m. 22 doesn't even have an out count on it? 23 MR. : I mean, it don't add up 24 because - yeah, something is not right 25 because R&D is not on here. Unless they moved. EFTA00111120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 I mean, some time, they say a ghost count, but 2 3 MR. : And what does a ghost 4 count mean? 5 MR. : -- so, like, the guys in 6 medical, they say, hey, I didn't have time to 7 key him in, but I'm verifying that he's down 8 here with me, and put him on my count 9 MR. : So, R&D. Does that say 10 95 plus one? 11 MR. : It could say 95 or it could 12 say 9-South. 13 MR. : Oh, 9-South plus one. 14 MR. : What is 9-South? 15 MR. : The SHU. 16 MR. : Now, this name, to me, 17 looks like (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:27). 18 Do you know any -- 19 MR. . Yeah. 20 MR. -- so, is that somebody's 21 name? 22 MR. : Yeah. That's an officer. 23 MR. : So, if someone was placed 24 in R&D, and someone was told to watch that 25 person there, would the person - at 10:00 p.m. EFTA00111121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 - would they be able to see like a dry cell, 2 someone was still there at night? 3 MR. : Well, yeah, because you could 4 watch them down here, yeah. 5 MR. : And is that like a small 6 (Indiscernible *01:39:52)? Is it kind of like 7 you'd be able to - that person would know if 8 somebody was there or not? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Verify it. 11 MR. : Because someone could have 12 came in before the count, too. A U.S. Marshal 13 could have brung one in, and they said, hey, 14 watch this guy. He's going to 9-South. That's 15 why the plus one is throwing me off. 16 MR. : Have you ever seen plus 17 one on anything before? 18 MR. : No. I heard people calling 19 in with a plus one. But then, again, I say 20 that's like a ghost. A ghost count. 21 MR. : All right. Does this 22 MR. : But it mess up the base 23 count, though. 24 MR. : -- but seeing, especially 25 looking at the 72 -- EFTA00111122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 MR. : Yeah, I don't know how that 2 happened. 3 MR. : -- and does this at all 4 tell you anything about any of these counts? 5 MR. : Hmm. 6 MR. : Like, we've had other 7 people, you know, in higher positions saying, 8 to me, it tells me that the counts weren't 9 done. Does that tell you that? 10 MR. : Yeah, but at 10:00? Pfft, I 11 mean, yeah. I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, 12 I couldn't tell you, man. 13 MR. : All right. So -. 14 MR. : I couldn't tell you. I don't 15 know. I don't understand that. 16 MR. : Okay. So, is it just a 17 baffling type of deal? Because it's baffling -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- to us, and then, we're 20 just hoping that people can kind of help us 21 especially people that were there -. 22 MR. : I don't know. See, that's 23 why I don't understand that. I don't see how 24 they get 73 at the 10:00 count, and then they 25 lose one after the 10:00 count. EFTA00111123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : And that's the same 2 thing. We're trying to figure that out. 3 MR. : Unless it wasn't keyed in the 4 system. 5 MR. : At what point - are you 6 able to tell - at what point it should have 7 been keyed in the system by that? 8 MR. : Well, if a guy came into R&D, 9 and they keyed him in SHU, and then put him 10 back in R&D. 11 MR. : So if he like went to SHU 12 13 MR. : He never went to SHU. 14 MR. : -- and then back? 15 MR. : They keyed him in the SHU. 16 They put him on this count. But he didn't make 17 it. So, the medical and stuff taking the guy 18 out. So, they say, hey, leave him down there, 19 and count him in R&D. I could see that 20 happening. 21 MR. : So if, like, he's in 22 medical, and they can't -- 23 MR. : Well, so like, medical comes 24 down there, and they checking him out, and he 25 don't make it up time in SHU, for the time, EFTA00111124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 seeing they could say, hey, well, I'm not 2 putting him on our count, put him down there. 3 MR. : So, that would be like 4 the ghost count you're talking about? 5 MR. : No, that's a real count. 6 MR. : But if he's -. 7 MR. : That's just saying someone 8 put him in there but took him out. 9 MR. : All right. But if he's 10 not physically there, he's not actually allowed 11 to be on the count. Is he? 12 MR. : Exactly. No. That's why - 13 and this is, I don't - you see, this says RA? 14 That's R&D. 15 MR. : And does it say anybody's 16 in R&D over on this one? 17 MR. : Well, there's no out count, 18 and that's what I'm saying. There's no out 19 count with that one. 20 MR. : So, this RA -- 21 MR. : RA and R&D are separate. 22 MR. : -- is one. 23 MR. : You need an out count for 24 this. You don't need an out count for that. 25 This is a unit. EFTA00111125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : But as far as this goes, 2 we're looking at the midnight and the 10:00 3 p.m., right? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : So, at midnight, there is 6 RA1, and the midnight, but at the 10:00 p.m., 7 you know -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- two hours earlier, the 10 zero. Correct? 11 MR. : So I'm thinking this dude 12 went back to RA. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That's how they lost someone. 15 MR. : But there is a count slip? 16 MR. : For RA or R&D? 17 MR. : What's he talking about? 18 MR. : So, RA -- 19 MR. : That's the thing. That is 20 was -- 21 MR. : -- isn't the count slip 22 for - (Indiscernible *01:43:21). 23 MR. : At the top. 24 MR. : That's R&D. 25 MR. : Well, they could have messed EFTA00111126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 up. They should have had the RA count slip for 2 that one. 3 MR. : What's the difference between 4 RA and R&D? 5 MR. : RA is a real unit. So, when 6 the guys come back from court, they're in RA 7 status. R&D is when they keyed out. 8 MR. : To go to leave? 9 MR. : To go to court. But if they 10 come back, they came back in their unit. If 11 they don't come back, they release them from 12 R&D. But RA is technically a unit. 13 MR. : And it doesn't count as a - 14 it doesn't show up as R&D? 15 MR. : No. (Indiscernible 16 *01:43:57). 17 MR. : Where would that one slip 18 - that says R&D in there - where would that 19 show up here? 20 MR. : That would be right here. 21 But they don't have nobody in R&D. 22 MR. : So, there's - and so, is 23 that even weirder, the fact that, at the 10:00 24 p.m. count, there's a count slip for R&D, and 25 there's nobody for R&D on this? EFTA00111127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 MR. : That's why I think they put 2 him, and they keyed him in SHU. They keyed him 3 in SHU, the inmate, and then put him down in 4 R&D. And then, changed it after the count. Or 5 they could have changed it right after this 6 count cleared, and set it up for the next 7 count, say the inmates, the inmate is in - this 8 is the 10:00? 9 MR. : Yeah, that one is the 10 10:00 p.m. 11 MR. : Yeah. And you have the 12 midnight one. 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : That's the midnight one 15 right there. 16 MR. : That's the 3:00. 17 MR. : Oh. 18 MR. : See, (Indiscernible 19 *01:44:44) right here. 20 MR. : Oh, I think I took it. 21 MR. : So, whoever was in SHU, they 22 put him, and they keyed him into RA and R&D. 23 MR. : This is the midnight. 24 MR. : Yeah. So that's what 25 happened. EFTA00111128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 MR. : Does R&D have like a dry cell 2 or a dry room? 3 MR. : No, they got cells. You see, 4 they got RA right here. Yeah, that's what 5 happened. I think the guy came from SHU and 6 went to RA. That's why they lost one. 7 MR. : And can you think of why 8 a person would go from SHU to RA, at that late 9 at night? 10 MR. : Body scan. Probably pulled 11 something. And they kept him down there, put 12 him through the x-ray. 13 MR. : And is there any way - by 14 looking at these - you can see how Is there 15 - you said the 4:00 p.m.? 16 MR. : Yeah. That's the 4:00 p.m. 17 MR. : Is the person in R&D at 18 4:00 p.m.? Are you able to tell by this? 19 MR. : Let me see. You know the 20 inmate that was down there or no? 21 MR. : I think Fernandez. Is 22 that right? 23 MR. : Was he a west side dude? 24 MR. : Do you anything about 25 him? EFTA00111129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : No, I don't. 2 MR. : Yeah, but that's what it 3 looks like. It looks like they took a guy to 4 SHU, and put him in R&D, but instead of keying 5 him in R&D, they keyed him RA. Yeah. That's 6 what it looks like. 7 MR. : So, at the 4:00 p.m., was 8 he anything to do with Fernandez on that, or 9 anything to do with somebody in -? 10 MR. : Well, the 4:00 p.m. is - no, 11 because no one is out from R&D. Let me see. 12 You've got one from 11-South. You've got no 13 one else from R&D. 14 MR. : But it's also said that 15 at the 10:00 p.m., right? Or I don't know which 16 one I'm looking at right there, but -. 17 MR. : No, you have one out here. 18 Yeah. But it looks like this inmate, from 19 10:00, they did the count at 10:00. Plus one. 20 Yeah. Plus one. Yeah. It seemed like they 21 got screwed up by something. Either moving 22 this guy to R&D, or whatever. I mean, the 23 count slip shouldn't have accepted anyway, 24 though. So, in the 9-South, plus one. Like, 25 don't know why that was written, but -- EFTA00111130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- that's what it looked 3 like. The guy came from 9-South, he went in 4 the RA. He stayed there throughout the night. 5 Whoever the inmate was -- 6 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 7 MR. right there. 8 MR. : And we have reason to 9 believe that that is the case. That there is a 10 guy that was in, you know, he did stay there at 11 the night, and he had somebody on him, and 12 that's one of the reasons why we want to talk 13 to somebody that was in R&D to be able to 14 verify hey, was that guy really there? 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : And by looking at that, 17 would that be that individual we just talked 18 about? 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Who did the count slip? 22 MR. : It's based on the count slip 23 (Indiscernible *01:48:18). 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Um all right. Does this EFTA00111131 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 tell you anything else? Just before we move 2 on. 3 MR. : I mean just -. I don't know. 4 Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand it. 5 That's the only thing I think they probably 6 took him down for that then. 7 MR. : Is there - which, from 8 looking at these, what basic like counts seem 9 bad to you? Does this 10:00 p.m. one seem like 10 a bad count to you? The way that it - what you 11 just looked at? When there's nothing on the El 12 and there's a count slip? 13 MR. : Uh. 14 MR. : If you were working that 15 night and you got a count like that, is that a 16 good count or bad count? 17 MR. : I would have said bad count. 18 MR. : And who - can you tell by 19 looking at this - who was the one who took this 20 count? 21 MR. : Uh 22 MR. -: ? And was there any 23 lieutenants involved with this? 24 MR. : I mean there could have been. 25 I'm not sure. EFTA00111132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. : But by looking at it like 2 I think like probably the midnight one there 3 was an actual ops lieutenant. Are you able to 4 tell that by looking at the - I think the ops 5 lieutenant is the one who caught it at 6 midnight? Are you able to tell that that -? 7 MR. : Oh this one here? 8 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to - 9 by looking at these, are you able to tell when 10 the lieutenant actually took the count? 11 MR. : It was - says she took the 12 count - took the count at midnight. 13 MR. : All right. And it shows 14 on it? I'm looking at it upside down 15 so I can't even see. 16 MR. : That's what it says yeah. 17 MR. : And on this one does it 18 show any lieutenant was involved? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : So it would just been 21 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. 24 MR. : What about the 4:00 p.m.? 25 Does it show the lieutenant's name on the 4:00 EFTA00111133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 p.m.? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Do you have any idea what 4 first name is? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : But this does seem like a 7 bad El. 8 MR. : El seems good. But um -. 9 MR. : Even though that no one 10 is listed on R&D? 11 MR. : Yeah that's what's confusing. 12 Like -. 13 MR. : Because then you say 14 there's a count slip for -. 15 MR. : This is at 9:33. 16 MR. : Wasn't that just one that 17 was printed? Oh. Because the numbers are 18 printed on that? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : I see what you're saying. 21 So after 9:33 possibly, something changed? 22 MR. : So that could be two things. 23 Either the Marshals was trying to get one in 24 before the count and they thought they had 25 enough time to process him upstairs. And then EFTA00111134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 when they call in the count, it's wrong. Like 2 hold on that's not it. Yeah. 3 MR. : And that's what I mean by 4 wouldn't this be incorrect if they get a count 5 slip that's not listed on the El? 6 MR. : Yeah. They got a - which one 7 did they get? R&D? Yeah. Yep. That would be 8 a bad one. 9 MR. : All right. So for this 10 it seems like the 10:00 p.m. on August 9th was 11 a bad El and as far as the midnight, it seems 12 like it's the count slip that's a bad slip. Is 13 that correct? Whatever that's (Indiscernible 14 *01:51:13). I'm sorry, I'm in the -. So it 15 seems like the El is good at midnight, but the 16 count slip is bad at midnight for ZA. And 17 we're primarily asking you this stuff just 18 because we've got to write a report about what 19 we're finding. And we don't want to sound - we 20 don't want to be wrong. You know what I mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. Yeah so, the count 22 slip is wrong on this one. 23 MR. : So midnight count slip is 24 wrong, El seems right. The El at 10:00 p.m. 25 seems wrong, but the count slips seems right. EFTA00111135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 At least for R&D. I - we have reason to 2 believe the count slip for ZA is also wrong for 3 4 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 5 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. because -. 6 Well it depends, I guess, like you said, what 7 time the individual was moved to R&D. We've 8 been told that after the you know -. People 9 are all moved prior to this time. So if that 10 person was in R&D, it would have been prior to 11 the 10:00 p.m. count. Does that sound right to 12 you? 13 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 14 mean something could have happened. And you 15 know taken this guy downstairs. 16 MR. : And that's why we need to 17 talk to people. So by looking at this, are you 18 able to like figure out who we can talk to? To 19 see if something happened at 10:00 p.m. to 20 change this count and make this -? 21 MR. : Did you see the log already? 22 MR. : The lieutenant's log? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Do we have it? Yeah. I 25 have it. EFTA00111136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : Anything with log? 2 MR. : Um so here's the - yeah. 3 So here's the log from the day you were on. 4 That's the August - it says August 10th, but 5 you know it's the August 9th log in there. Are 6 you able to tell by looking at that? And 7 here's the day after. So this is the - you've 8 got the August 9th -- 9 MR. : Okay. So moving him to the 10 dry cell. 11 MR. : -- and the August 10th. 12 MR. : Okay. So he put someone in 13 dry cell. 14 MR. : Dry cell is in the SHU isn't 15 it? 16 MR. : Yeah. If there's space. 17 Okay. So it looks like they didn't key the guy 18 up. He went to dry cell depending on what 19 time. 20 MR. : And are you able to tell 21 by these lieutenant's - I think you've got the 22 actual lieutenant log back there and I would 23 assume that that's when it should be documented 24 when people are moved. Correct? Are you able 25 to tell by looking at that when someone - you EFTA00111137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 know this person was moved to dry cell? 2 MR. : Eh. 3 MR. : Oh. And also if you've 4 got that, are you able to tell by looking at 5 that when you worked until? No? 6 MR. : No. I wouldn't have done a 7 log that day from activities. 8 MR. : Yeah. I just didn't know 9 if it like mentioned when people - you know ops 10 or activities started or stopped. 11 MR. : No. It doesn't say when he 12 . It just says Inmate Fernandez on dry cell. 13 It doesn't say when he went there. 14 MR. : There's no time associated 15 with the movement on there? 16 MR. : Should have there been? 17 MR. : I mean that's good to put in 18 there yeah. 19 MR. : So you said you wouldn't 20 have been associated with the lieutenant's log. 21 Who does the lieutenant's log? 22 MR. : Ops should take care of it. 23 MR. : Ops would so on your 24 shift it would have been 25 MR. : Yeah. But Fernandez is EFTA00111138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr_ 1 already on dry cell on day watch it says. 2 MR. : And that's where we get 3 confused. And that's why we have reason to 4 believe - because it seems like Fernandez was 5 put on day watch. 6 MR. : At 3:15. Yeah. 7 MR. : Does it say 3:15 he was 8 placed on there? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So that indicates to us 11 the 4:00 p.m. and that 10:00 p.m. count were 12 also both bad. He wasn't in the SHU. Does 13 that make sense to you? 14 MR. : I think he was Yeah. He 15 wasn't in the SHU, but he was he was still 16 keyed in SHU. 17 MR. : He was still keyed in the 18 SHU, but he wasn't there? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Right. So for the Els, 21 they would still show it. The only way the 22 people in control would know it is if SHU 23 actually did their count and said we only got 24 72 people in here not 73. Right? 25 MR. : I mean.... EFTA00111139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 MR. : Because people working in 2 the SHU. They know hey, we only count bodies 3 that are present. 4 MR. : Oh hold on. This is the 9th. 5 Okay. So he went to -. Transfer to special 6 housing - dry cell at 4:00. 7 MR. : At 4:00 it says? 8 MR. : On the 9th. This is done on 9 the night before. Okay. Okay. 10 MR. : Can you -? And again I 11 promise you, not a "gotcha." You're being a 12 very extremely help. Can you just note on 13 there where you're seeing these different 14 things? If you can tell at what time he was 15 moved? 16 MR. : Well this just looks like the 17 log is the same. 18 MR. : We also have reason to 19 believe that people manipulated the log after 20 the fact. 21 MR. : Yeah. That's what I'm 22 saying. Some things are (Indiscernible 23 *01:57:13). 24 MR. : Do you know anything 25 about that? While I mentioned that? EFTA00111140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 MR. : No. I see SHU corrections; 2 Fernandez; dry cell; RA; Saturday. Yeah. So I 3 mean that's pretty much whatever. I think that 4 the dial was still keyed in the SHU. 5 MR. : But as far as -- 6 MR. : In the building physically. 7 MR. : -- are you able to -? 8 Did you say that you saw something in there 9 that said either 3:15 or then you said 4:00 10 p.m. after that? Where are you seeing that? 11 MR. : No. It looks like -- 12 MR. : The 3:00. 13 MR. : -- they're saying the guy was 14 transferred back to SHU. Hold on. But this 15 also says that I was - I relieved as 16 day watch ops. 17 MR. : It says you relieved 18 as day watch ops? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Instead of 21 mean 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Is that wrong? 24 MR. : Mm. 25 MR. : Or was it that EFTA00111141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 potentially was late, and you relieved 2 her? 3 MR. : I don't know. I'm not sure. 4 MR. : Would that be like a 5 possibility? Like can they do that? Even if 6 you're activities' lieutenant, if she wants to 7 leave and you're there and - who is the 8 ops lieutenant - wasn't? Can they say that you 9 relieved her even though you were activities' 10 lieutenant? 11 MR. : Mm. 12 MR. : Or is she not supposed to 13 write that? Or not supposed to be in there? 14 MR. : So who wrote that? 15 MR. Uh I don't know. It could be 16 - that's the thing. It could be a - it's like 17 a from the day's prior. So if you don't catch 18 it, you just going to keep it the same. So 19 it's like - because I'm ops - I know I was ops. 20 That's what I'm saying. So I must have came in 21 on doing overtime that day. So normally I 22 would relieve her. So she probably left it 23 that way anyway thinking okay it's the same. 24 You're not changing that. You know? 25 *01:59:23 EFTA00111142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 MR. : Oh you mean the day 2 before you were ops is what you're saying? 3 MR. : Yeah. I think I was ops that 4 whole quarter though. I think so yeah. 5 MR. : So you were - that whole 6 quarter you were ops? Why were you -? 7 MR. : Overtime. 8 MR. : So overtime was a 9 different duty? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So you were the ops 12 lieutenant up until that day? You were 13 activities' lieutenant that day though? 14 MR. : Yeah. I think so. 15 MR. : So being that you were 16 ops, were you also potentially acting as like 17 the ops lieutenant? 18 MR. : Mm. 19 MR. : Like as in like since 20 that were your normal duties would have you 21 also took - taken that on? Like hey, I know 22 I'm activities, but I'll do the ops role? And 23 this is, again, just to try to help recollect - 24 25 MR. : I don't know. EFTA00111143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. : -- what you were doing. 2 MR. : I think I was ops that 3 quarter though. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. I was ops. 6 MR. : Again we don't have your 7 records. There was no reason for us to be 8 grabbing your records or anything like that. 9 So everything we're asking you about is simply 10 to help us fill in the blanks. 11 MR. : So based on what you said, 12 you think it's - the log is from previous date. 13 It was just a spite edit that wasn't caught on 14 to. 15 MR. : Yeah. The dry cell stuff. I 16 don't know about all that. But that's what it 17 looks like. It looked like the guy was in 18 there and they didn't key him out even though 19 he was in R&D. 20 MR. : So let's say if I'm in SHU 21 and I wanted to move somebody. Or you wanted 22 to move somebody in the SHU. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : You're going to - do you key 25 it in, or do you call in to somebody and tell EFTA00111144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 them to key it in? Who keys it in? 2 MR. : You can do it if you want to. 3 You can do it by yourself. 4 MR. : And let's say you move it. 5 Is someone supposed to be notified hey, listen 6 this person is moved? Or you - the SHU CO's 7 can move the inmates by themselves? 8 MR. : Someone from a different 9 unit? 10 MR. : Yeah. Like control or R&D? 11 MR. : No you tell - you can call 12 control. 13 MR. : Is it policy that control 14 must be notified? 15 MR. : I don't know if it's policy, 16 but I mean, they taking a count it's good to 17 know. Hey, this is what's going on - got to 18 move this guy down to dry cell. 19 MR. : And let's say - sorry. Go 20 ahead. 21 MR. : I was going to say I 22 guess - are you asking like who is responsible 23 for doing the keying? Yeah who -? 24 MR. : It could be CNA. 25 MR. : What's CNA? EFTA00111145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Control number two. 2 MR. : Okay. But control would 3 be responsible for him. It's not ops or SHU 4 that would have been responsible for 5 (Indiscernible *02:01:28). It's control that 6 was -- 7 MR. : I mean SHU could -- 8 MR. : -- responsible for -? 9 MR. make that change though. 10 MR. : SHU could? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : It's not an ops 13 responsibility or activities'? 14 MR. : I mean if they say hey, 15 need this guy in dry cell. You know. Okay. 16 You notify them. You know hey, move him. 17 MR. : Okay. I guess though 18 what we're saying is like under the regular 19 practice - I understand that other - some 20 people have the ability to do it. But who 21 should have done it? 22 MR. : Should have moved keyed the 23 inmate from -- 24 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 25 MR. : SHU to R&D? EFTA00111146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Uh CNA, control. 3 MR. : Control should have? 4 MR. : Number two. Yeah. 5 MR. : And how should have they 6 been notified that they needed to make that 7 change? Who should have notified them that 8 that change needed to be made? 9 MR. Mm. I mean Sue could have 10 called ahead. This guy is keyed up here. He's 11 keyed down there. 12 MR. : So I guess what I'm 13 saying is like once an inmate is moved, and 14 control needs to be notified. Hey, this guy 15 that was in SHU is now in R&A. Who needs to 16 notify control to make those changes in the 17 system? 18 MR. : The SHU. They just 19 (Indiscernible *02:02:37) down there. 20 MR. : So the SHU. 21 MR. : They'll call control. Yeah. 22 MR. : Okay. So whenever - 23 let's say for instance we believe Fernandez was 24 moved from the SHU to R&A on dry cell. The SHU 25 should have contacted control and said we just EFTA00111147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 made this movement. He needs to be rekeyed. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. That's the 4 way it works? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And again, these are just 7 questions. We don't know. 8 MR. : It could be that or the 9 lieutenant could do it. Either or. Hey, I'm 10 moving this guy. I'm moving here. 11 MR. : So should have a 12 lieutenant been involved in that? 13 MR. : Not necessarily. 14 MR. : Okay. And that's why 15 we're just trying to figure out what is the 16 standard operating procedure? Like what is 17 typically - what is supposed to happen? 18 MR. : I mean there's no typical. 19 You get it done. Hey, I'm telling you to move 20 him. Or I say I'm moving this guy. The 21 lieutenant told me to move him. And yeah. 22 MR. : I guess but if anybody 23 can do it and no one is told to do it, I guess 24 - I would assume - that it would quite 25 frequently not be done because everyone would EFTA00111148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 be like "well he could have done it - he should 2 have done it." I'm saying like who is usually 3 supposed to do it? Who is like supposed to 4 take the lead of - make sure that that's done 5 or "we just moved this guy - control you know 6 like key that out." Like how is it supposed to 7 be done? Because otherwise, it's always going 8 to fall apart because then everyone is going to 9 say, "well that person could have done it - 10 that person could have done it." 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So is there anybody 13 that's supposed to do it? 14 MR. : To notify? 15 MR. : Yeah. To make the 16 notifications so that the numbers can be 17 changed on the El? 18 MR. : Yeah. I would say the SHU 19 staff. 20 MR. : SHU staff. 21 MR. : They kind of say hey, this 22 guy is not up there. check to see where he's 23 at. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : Maybe key him to R&D. EFTA00111149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 MR. : Sorry I didn't mean -. 2 MR. : No-no. That's exactly what I 3 was thinking or trying to get to. You said the 4 SHU staff could also key it in. If they keyed 5 it in, would this El document get updated? 6 MR. : Well these -. 7 MR. : Or would control have to 8 update it? 9 MR. : Control will update it. 10 MR. : So no matter even if the SHU 11 staff decided if they wanted to update it, 12 control manually has to update this document 13 specifically. 14 MR. : Yeah. Put a number on it. 15 Because this is the last one that was printed. 16 And then you make a change after that it's not 17 going to show. 18 MR. : Okay. This was -. 19 MR. : 9:30. 20 MR. : 9:30. But let's see the 4:00 21 p.m. count. I just want to see what time that 22 was printed. 23 MR. : 3:40. 24 MR. : And according to that, the 25 inmate was supposed to be moved at 3:15? EFTA00111150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Nah. 2 MR. : The daily log -? 3 MR. : Well you said two 4 different - I was going to back to that. You 5 said - one time you said 3:15 and the other 6 time you said 4:00 p.m. Are you able to tell? 7 MR. : Yeah. It looks like 8 Okay. So let's start with this. This is the 9 9th, right? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : So you got nobody starting 12 the shift on dry cell. So this says 3:15 13 inmate Fernandez placed on dry cell from SHU. 14 MR. : Can you just put a star 15 next to that? All right. So then you believe 16 that that is where things got screwed up? They 17 never keyed him out. 18 MR. : Yeah. Inmate Fernandez 19 placed on dry cell; 75 in SHU; I do believe 20 .... All right. So at 9:00 on August 21 9th Friday he goes in at 3:15 in dry cell. And 22 he stays in there overnight. So the 4:00 23 count, he's still keyed in there though, right? 24 MR. : Well that's what we're 25 trying to figure out. EFTA00111151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Because it's not caught 3 until -. So we believe from people that we 4 talked to, it was caught at midnight. And that 5 person who caught it said like this person is 6 on dry cell and then revised the numbers and 7 the count. 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Now we're trying to 10 determine were the counts ever conducted in the 11 SHU? 12 MR. : Mm. 13 MR. : It doesn't appear to us 14 that they would have been. Because they would 15 have caught that at 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 16 p.m. They would have said this is the number 17 of people we physically have present. 18 MR. : Yeah but I don't see -. 19 MR. : And even at midnight i- 20 still says 73. And it's changed to 72. And to 21 us it suggests - and everyone else that we're 22 talking to - that we haven't shared this 23 information with many people. You're one of a 24 very select few that we're even showing this 25 stuff to. EFTA00111152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. : Mm-hm. 2 MR. : But the people that we've 3 showed it to before says, hey the fact that 4 they're reporting 73 and the actual count is 5 72, they're basically getting the number from 6 this and just writing that down. They're not 7 actually conducting the counts. Would you 8 agree with that statement? 9 MR. : They could do that. Or they 10 could actually be counting but not counting. 11 Making sure that they're just walking and 12 making sure they're alive. 13 MR. : So doing more of a round 14 than a count? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : And that is also one of 17 the things that we believe happened. Is that 18 at least on one of the instances, they did do a 19 round, but they didn't do an actual count. 20 MR. : Yeah. Because honestly, I 21 don't see it on this end. A 4:00 and a 10:00. 22 MR. : You don't see what? 23 MR. : The missing of 4:00 and 24 10:00. 25 MR. : Yeah. The fact that they EFTA00111153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 missed both seems very unlikely. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : If they're actually 4 counting. Correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And that's why we believe 7 - and it sounds like you agree - they didn't 8 actually do the 4:00, the 10:00, or the 9 midnight count. 10 MR. : No. I mean I'm thinking they 11 did to the 4:00 and the 10:00. 12 MR. : Even though the numbers 13 are wrong? 14 MR. : Yeah. They probably just 15 went off the numbers. 16 MR. : SO you think -- 17 MR. : What -- 18 MR. : -- they conducted the round? 19 MR. : They conducted a round 20 not a count. 21 MR. : Yeah. Or something. 22 MR. : I mean because they can't 23 miss the number if they're actually counting 24 numbers both at 4:00 - or all not just both. 25 At 4:00, at 10:00, and at midnight, all of the EFTA00111154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 count slips are wrong. 2 MR. : Yeah but then that's what 3 those (Indiscernible *02:08:32) to plus one. 4 It's like they know they got someone, but then 5 it's like Like maybe they was told -. 6 MR. : But they're still using 7 the 73 plus one. It should be 72 plus one if 8 they're doing that. 9 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 10 MR. : Unless it was 73 minus 11 one. Then they could do it. But 73 plus one 12 seems to indicate they're using the number 13 that's provided -- 14 MR. : On the El. 15 MR. : -- and saying we got one 16 more down there. 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 18 going on with this. That's baffling. 19 MR. : All right. To your 20 knowledge, if they're not doing the count 21 though that's all on the SHU? The people that 22 are in there right now? Nothing to do with 23 lieutenants. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Okay. There's no way for EFTA00111155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 like anyone else other than the people in the 2 SHU Or let me ask it a different way. Is 3 there any way for anyone other than the SHU to 4 know that they're not doing the counts? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? Okay. Anything that 7 you didn't initial, just again to say what it 8 is we showed you. 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:09:41) 10 MR. : Is this one you or me? 11 MR. : That's (Indiscernible 12 *02:09:48) 13 MR. : So what does this pertain to 14 - Thomas and Noel? 15 MR. : Well it's everybody know. 16 Because everybody that's in the SHU. Right? 17 We've got to talk to them. Hey, did you 18 conduct these counts. Or these you know? 19 Because this just brought to light the fact 20 that it doesn't appear that the counts were 21 ever being conducted. So we've got to - that's 22 why we've got to talk to the people that we 23 want to talk to first. People like yourself 24 that were lieutenants on duty. Hey, do you 25 know anything about this? Did you - do you EFTA00111156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 know? 2 MR. : I mean they wasn't counting. 3 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I know. 4 But I mean just letting you know like, oh yeah, 5 first we want to know about the cellmate. Hey, 6 did you know anything about this? Did you - it 7 looks like -. From the way that this memo 8 reads, we assumed that either you or told 9 hey, he's WAB. Make sure he gets a 10 cellmate. Because that's one of the reasons 11 why we want to talk -. 12 MR. : Based on that memo? 13 MR. : Yeah. because like the 14 fact that He's saying, I knew. I knew he 15 was going WAB. And I told him. 16 MR. : Mm-hm. 17 MR. : Hey, make sure he gets a 18 cellmate. So the assumption that we were going 19 off of is that either you and/or 20 MR. : Mm-hm. 21 MR. : -- spoke to ana 22 said he's going WAB. Make sure he gets a 23 cellmate. 24 MR. : Mm. 25 MR. : But it sounds like what EFTA00111157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 you're saying is you don't -. You didn't even 2 know, and you never had that conversation. 3 MR. : With Reyes and everything. 4 No. I don't even know - I never knew the dude 5 until that thing came out. You know what I 6 mean. He would have been notified. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : But then again, I mean, we do 9 get notified. But usually R&D calls us up. 10 Hey, those two guys ain't coming back. 11 MR. : And is it your belief 12 though by that -? Would it be -? All right. 13 If you said you dint' speak to him. So 14 probably he was notified directly from control? 15 Or R&D? 16 MR. : I would say probably R&D. 17 MR. : So R&D wouldn't call 18 control. And control wouldn't call him? R&D 19 would call directly to the SHU? 20 MR. : That's how we used to do it. 21 MR. : Okay. That's how it 22 would always be? So when you were in the SHU - 23 24 MR. : They call up -. 25 MR. : R&D would call you EFTA00111158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 directly? 2 MR. : But again that's evening 3 watch. Again that's on evening watch. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : That guy's not coming back. 6 MR. : But at 1:50 that's early. 7 And that's when it notified. All right. So if 8 he doesn't have WAB listed on his name on the 9 court list that morning. And that's what 10 people have told us. So we're going on the 11 assumption that - and this is an assumption. 12 That he was - somebody was contacted in the SHU 13 saying hey, it looks like he's not coming back. 14 He did write possibly. But that's the first 15 that we're seeing WAB. 16 MR. : Mm-hm. 17 MR. : So the thought is that 18 someone contacted We haven't - we've 19 got to talk to him. But like and say, hey, 20 doesn't look like he's coming back. You know 21 we're just notifying you now. 22 MR. : Mm-hm. 23 MR. : And again we were told 24 typically the way it works - and it sounds like 25 you're correcting us - R&D typically calls EFTA00111159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 control. Control calls ops. Ops calls SHU. 2 Is that not correct? 3 MR. : What. When an inmate doesn't 4 come back? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : No? It doesn't work that 8 way? So R&D you're saying typically just would 9 go straight to SHU? 10 MR. : That's a heads up. That's a 11 courtesy. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 14 back. Control knows. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Control knows. They could 17 call control too. But usually they call in you 18 know why would you call me? 19 MR. : I don't know. 20 MR. : You know? You in SHU. 21 MR. : That's just what we were 22 told. 23 MR. : Hey, this guy's not coming 24 back. 25 MR. : And then again, we're EFTA00111160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 only as good as who the people we talk to. 2 MR. : Mm-hm. 3 MR. : Whatever information we 4 get is like people like yourself trying to like 5 -. Hey, I know it's probably like yourself it 6 sounds like. At least in the beginning of this 7 thing, you seemed pretty nervous to talk to us 8 because we're really just trying to 9 MR. : No-no. The thing about it -. 10 The thing is. I know this. This is a high- 11 profile case, looking to point fingers. 12 MR. : Right-right-right-right. 13 MR. : Blame someone. Who dropped 14 the ball? Who did this and that? 15 MR. : Totally get it. 16 MR. : I mean two years later, now 17 it's still like okay, let's go down and see. 18 MR. : And the reason why and 19 I'm sure you saw on the papers what happened 20 recently. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Well that now allows us 23 to try to come back and try to figure out. All 24 right. Now we can do -. 25 MR. : Yeah. But you're going to go EFTA00111161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1- 1 after a whole shift. You know. 2 MR. : It's not necessarily go 3 after the whole shift. But we've got to figure 4 out what went wrong at the MCC. And what needs 5 to be fixed. Do you know what I'm saying? 6 MR. : I mean -. 7 MR. : But I get -. Trust me -. 8 MR. : Just to deal - they have 9 suicides man. Like they do. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Totally. 11 MR. : He just happened to be a 12 high-profile one. 13 MR. : Right. And because it's 14 so high-profile, and the fact that there were - 15 16 MR. : The other things with the -- 17 yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. : All these other things 19 are going on now. It looks like there was some 20 false you know slips that were created. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : They weren't doing 23 counts. You know we're getting these signs 24 saying that -- 25 MR. : Yeah but that stuff is -- EFTA00111162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 MR. : -- hey, you're supposed 2 to check on him every -. 3 MR. -- not the normal though. 4 5 6 7 MR. • MR. ■ Definitely. MR. : Right-right-right-right. : That's not the normal. : Yeah. So yeah. And 8 you're right. It's because it's a high-profile 9 10 MR. : I was there for ten years. I 11 used to do that stuff and all that. That's not 12 normal. 13 MR. : What's not normal? 14 MR. : Missed counts and all this 15 and -. Yeah. 16 MR. : And so you're saying that 17 this seems to be abnormal? 18 MR. : It's definitely abnormal. 19 MR. : When you were in the SHU, 20 did you ever - were you ever - did you ever 21 experience people not doing counts? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : People always did counts 24 when you were there? 25 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but here. EFTA00111163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 MR. : And that's -. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : You know and that's what 4 people - that's what the conspiracy theorists 5 come in and all that kind of stuff. Like wow, 6 this is one day? And that's where we've got to 7 -. All right. Well let's figure out what 8 actually happened. Is this abnormal or is it 9 normal? You're saying that this seems to be a 10 very abnormal day. 11 MR. : I'm talking about that's why 12 the counts and the slips and the rounds and the 13 falsifying stuff like that. But everything 14 else, I mean, this place is a busy place. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : You know? They lose - 17 inmates go out WAB all the time. New inmates 18 come in. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So this is a revolving door. 21 MR. : All right. I know we're 22 taking a lot longer than we thought. Let me 23 just go through a lot of these things now. 24 Just back to the round sheet where -. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 MR. : What is the purpose of a 2 supervisor actually signing this round sheet? 3 MR. : Making sure the officer is 4 filing and doing their rounds how they're 5 supposed to be. 6 MR. : And we don't really need 7 to look at it. Just. All right. So it's not 8 to verify that they were done. It's to verify 9 that the sheets are being kept up? 10 MR. : So if I go up there and I see 11 the times. You all made a round after 40 12 minutes. What happened here? 13 MR. : So you ask them about 14 that. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : But on this date you 17 can't - you don't remember going and speaking 18 to them? 19 MR. : I said I could have went. 20 don't recall. 21 MR. : Okay. And again just 22 going forward, know that these are just simply 23 questions to see what we can find out about 24 that day. And as well as you know the point 25 being you saying that this is such an abnormal EFTA00111165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 day. And it was such a big event that's been 2 in the news now for two years. 3 MR. : Mm-hm. 4 MR. : Just try and really place 5 yourself. What was your role on that day? 6 MR. : Yeah. Like I said I just 7 know I worked. And that was it. 8 MR. : All right. And as far as 9 you know, were rounds being conducted in the 10 SHU at that time? 11 MR. : Yeah. It's day watch. 12 You've got to make rounds. 13 MR. : On day watch you've got 14 to? 15 MR. : There's no way you can avoid 16 a round on day watch. 17 MR. : What about for - and I'm 18 not talking about just your shift - I'm saying 19 the SHU in general. Are you aware that rounds 20 weren't being conducted on evening watch or 21 morning watch? 22 MR. : Weren't? 23 MR. : Yeah. Were not. 24 MR. : Evening watch you've got to 25 make rounds too. I worked SHU for years. EFTA00111166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 2 MR. : You have to. You've got to 3 go. Yeah . 4 MR. : So when you were there 5 they were being conducted? 6 MR. : Yeah. That's why I'm saying. 7 The whole mess of the count thing. I'm like I 8 don't know. That's -. 9 MR. : Any of those people that 10 we discussed that were on day watch and you 11 know anybody working in the SHU on August 9th 12 and August 10th. Do you have any recollection 13 of speaking with any of those people about 14 morning watch or -? I mean not morning watch. 15 About speaking with about rounds or counts. 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : No. And now being that 18 you were an ops - the ops lieutenant. It 19 sounds like your quarterly post. Would that be 20 something that you would visit with them and 21 just say hey guys make sure you're doing your 22 rounds or anything like that? Would that be a 23 duty or responsibility of an ops lieutenant? 24 MR. : Yeah. But not - it's not 25 really my responsibility. It's the SHU EFTA00111167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 lieutenant. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah. Did you have 3 any conversations with the SHU lieutenant? At 4 the time? 5 MR. : Yeah. I talked to the SHU 6 lieutenant. Yeah. 7 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 8 MR. : Oh no you said it was 9 Right? 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Do you remember talking 13 to him at all about Epstein or Reyes? 14 MR. : I ain't seen the fence that 15 day. 16 MR. : Prior -? No. What I'm 17 asking about is up until August 10th. 18 MR. : Mm-hm. 19 MR. : Do you remember ever 20 conversing with about make sure you're 21 going these rounds and that Epstein is being - 22 you know looked at or he's got a cellmate or 23 anything like that? 24 MR. : Man, I don't recall that. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00111168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 MR. : Yeah. But we all you know. 2 It's hey, you got the email. 3 MR. : Right. The email saying 4 he needs a cellmate. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah. And all the 6 lieutenants know. They say oh no, such-and- 7 such we got the email. He was off of watch. 8 You know? 9 MR. : Do you think it's 10 acceptable for any lieutenant to say that they 11 didn't know that Epstein needed a cellmate? 12 MR. : Some people say they didn't 13 know the cellmate left. 14 MR. : No. The - if they're 15 saying that Let's talk about just the 16 people on that day. Let's talk about like for 17 instance somebody that maybe wasn't normally a 18 lieutenant. Can you - 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : All right. So she's in - 21 you said basically she's in training. She's 22 like an acting lieutenant. She's the person -. 23 MR. : I don't think she was acting 24 that day either though. I mean -. 25 MR. : Well I just mean that she EFTA00111169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 was activities' lieutenant. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 3 MR. : Sorry. She was the 4 activities' lieutenant and she was either 5 training or she's typically an SIS at the time 6 though. Should have she known by Epstein being 7 on the hotlist and Epstein you know coming off 8 suicide watch. Should she have known that he 9 was required to have a cellmate? Just by -? 10 MR. : Uh-uh. No. 11 MR. : No? What about 12 Should he have known? 13 MR. : I mean that's only if you're 14 aware though. If I'm not aware, the guy left. 15 MR. : I thought you said if 16 you're - first of all, I thought you said that 17 18 MR. : Well, no. 19 MR. : Everybody knows that in 20 the SHU you're supposed to have a cellmate 21 unless you're a certain classification. 22 MR. : Yeah. But sometimes it be an 23 odd number and they can't have one. 24 MR. : But then the second thing 25 would be he's on the hotlist. Everybody knows EFTA00111170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 if you're on the hotlist you're supposed to 2 have a cellmate. Right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And then the third thing 5 would be that there's an actual email that was 6 sent out and that said he's supposed to have a 7 cellmate. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : So that's where With 10 that all in mind -. And I'm not -- 11 MR. : About the notifications 12 MR. : -- pointing to one person 13 out in particular. What I'm just asking is 14 these people that were working. So you're not 15 like throwing somebody under the bus. 16 MR. : Oh well. 17 MR. : I'm just asking like as 18 far as these people. Should have known 19 that there should have been -? And I'm not 20 saying that he knew. These people may very 21 well have not have known that I'm 22 just asking like -. 23 MR. : Yeah but I'm thinking. 24 MR. : In general with their 25 positions. EFTA00111171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 MR. : In general. Well 2 probably never got the email. 3 MR. : Like you're saying you 4 knew. So yes. He knew. Should have 5 known? 6 MR. : I think all lieutenants 7 should know. 8 MR. : What about -? 9 MR. : But then again, we all - if 10 you're not aware to the inmate's leaving, 11 there's no reason to follow-up. 12 MR. : And that's why I started 13 after you. So at this point you said at least 14 by 8:00, people should know -. 15 MR. : That the guy's not coming 16 back or something. 17 MR. : He's not coming back. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So that's where I'm going 20 off of -. Alright, there's three lieutenants 21 from that point. After you leave, there's 22 three lieutenants. Right? There's 23 MR. : Mm-hm. 24 MR. -: 25 MR. : Mm-hm. EFTA00111172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : And then the next 2 morning, . Should - who 3 replaced you - should she have known that he 4 needed a cellmate? 5 MR. : I could see her not knowing. 6 MR. : And is that because she 7 wasn't a lieutenant? 8 MR. : Not a lieutenant. 9 MR. : Okay. What about 10 11 MR. : He's not a lieutenant. 12 MR. : So should have he known? 13 MR. : Yeah. Or knew. Like I said. 14 we all knew. 15 MR. : You all knew. 16 MR. : Because we got the email. 17 MR. : And then what about 18 ? Not only the email though. It 19 sounds like there was at least three checks. 20 One: he's in the SHU. Should have a cellmate. 21 Two: he came off of suicide watch. Should have 22 a cellmate. Three: an email was sent out to 23 all the lieutenants. Should have a cellmate. 24 So is there any -? 25 MR. : Yeah, but two and three EFTA00111173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 happens all the time though. Like the guy 2 comes off suicide watch. You put him in SHU 3 with a cellmate. And then again, that's not 4 forever. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But in this 6 case, you know, July 30th to August 9th or 7 10th. 8 MR. : But is it a set -? I don't 9 think -. That's up to psychology. Because we 10 have guys that - suicide watch. Same thing. 11 Once they leave, they didn't commit suicide and 12 it's nothing. 13 MR. : So if you get this email 14 then on July 30th saying make sure he's got a 15 cellmate. 16 MR. : There's no time on it. 17 MR. : In your mind, is that -? 18 Well two weeks from now? He doesn't need one 19 anymore. 20 MR. : There's no set time. It's 21 just immediately this guy's coming off. A guy 22 maybe got kicked to the unit. 23 MR. : Okay. So in his case -. 24 All right. How should it have been -? What 25 kind of notification should have been made EFTA00111174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 then? 2 MR. : This is a tough one. But if 3 a guy goes to court and he leaves, you know and 4 you're doing your daily operations. There's so 5 much going on. Epstein ain't the - I know he's 6 high-profile out to the outside. 7 MR. : But I mean he's still on 8 the hotlist. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So he's on the hotlist 11 still. So doesn't that indicate he needs 12 cellmate? If he's still on the hotlist. 13 MR. : Yeah. But he had one. 14 Right? 15 MR. : Right. And that's why 16 I'm saying. By - we're knocking you and we're 17 knocking out of this thing because you're 18 saying 8:00. So let's now look at 8:00 on. 19 Let's say - even for this instance let's even 20 say and they didn't know. Now 21 let's look at Certainly by 22 midnight you should have known. Right? 23 MR. : Yeah. But not a lieutenant 24 though. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00111175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : Like if the information isn't 2 told to me 3 MR. : But if they're coming in 4 You said that they needed to do a around. 5 Right? Don't these - for this case 6 needed to do a round in the SHU. 7 Correct? 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Check on all the inmates. 10 MR. : Check inmates, feeding, or 11 officers - making sure they doing the rounds or 12 got to go to SHU. 13 MR. -: Was she 14 required to check on all the inmates and do a 15 round? 16 MR. : When she was probably doing a 17 round. Yeah. 18 MR. : All right. So as far as 19 her. By that point, now we've only got -. You 20 know we're now -. You know let's say that 21 she's the one that corrected you know the count 22 slip. She caught that. She goes. She visited 23 -. She's supposed to go to the SHU. She's 24 supposed to actually visit all the tiers and do 25 a round? EFTA00111176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 MR. : I mean our policy is really 2 to say you've got to do a round in the SHU. 3 You know. So you in SHU, you in SHU. I don't 4 know what did she do. 5 MR. : And that's where I was 6 getting to before. Is doing a round in the SHU 7 for a lieutenant - does that mean just walking 8 into the SHU and walking out? Or does that 9 entail actually doing something when you're in 10 there? 11 MR. : I don't think -. There's no 12 guidance on that. 13 MR. : So we've had other people 14 tell us that when you - a lieutenant is 15 actually required to walk the tiers and conduct 16 a round. Not to list it on the round sheet, 17 but like it were - like the people who list 18 those rounds on the rounds sheet. Is that 19 you're understanding of what you were supposed 20 to do? 21 MR. : I mean yeah. 22 MR. : So is that what she 23 should have done? She should have walked the 24 tiers and checked on the inmates? 25 MR. : Yeah. I mean -. EFTA00111177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : By policy I'm saying. 2 MR. : By policy you've got to make 3 a round. 4 MR. : And that round is 5 classified as like a round like the COs who are 6 in the SHU do a round? 7 MR. : I've got to double check on 8 that. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : To tell you the truth. 11 MR. : And that's what's unsure? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : You're unclear? Okay. 14 And that's where I'm still trying. Because 15 we've also had less people - but some people 16 have also said no, a round for a lieutenant and 17 a round for a CO is different. A round for a 18 lieutenant is visiting the SHU and checking in 19 with the officers. We've had more people say 20 no-no-no-no-no. You need to go into the SHU. 21 You need to check in with the officers, but you 22 also need to walk the tier. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : And I'm trying to get 25 that like -. EFTA00111178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 MR. : It depends on the lieutenant. 2 MR. : And then their 3 interpretation? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : But there's no -? 6 MR. : Like I said that's why I 7 really don't - I'll have to check on that part. 8 MR. : Okay. And what policy 9 would that be in? Where it would spell that 10 out? 11 MR. : That would be in inmate 12 discipline which is SHU. And it also would 13 probably be in psychology. 14 MR. : So it would be psychology 15 for if the lieutenant needs to do it? 16 MR. : I know it's about 30 rounds 17 and everything. 18 MR. : But it would also be like 19 20 MR. : But for lieutenants -. 21 MR. : It would also be like a 22 SHU type of -? 23 MR. : Yeah. But I'm thinking it's 24 more You got the polices? 25 MR. : Well I got the SHU EFTA00111179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 policies. I don't have the psychology. 2 MR. : Isn't it in there? 3 MR. : I don't know. I was 4 going to look. 5 MR. : Yeah. Let me see. It might 6 be. Psychology is definitely the 30-minute 7 rounds. I know. 8 MR. : Again these aren't "I 9 gotcha." These are just genuine questions. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : But psychology you think 12 might have it with like lieutenants -. 13 MR. : Well they definitely with the 14 30 minutes. The -. 15 MR. : Yeah. I mean the SHU 16 policy clearly states that rounds need to be 17 conducted. I just haven't seen anything that 18 said lieutenants need to do it. And that's 19 where - I mean you can look through them if you 20 want. 21 MR. : Nah. 22 MR. : If you can 23 MR. : I think it's in there. It 24 may not be in this, but it's definitely in 25 there. Speaking of lieutenants, we don't need EFTA00111180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 to make you look in this. We'll look it up. 2 MR. : This is post orders. 3 MR. : We'll dig into that. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : But you think it's 6 probably in the SHU? 7 MR. : Yeah. It's a round, but to 8 say specific go 10, check on and all that. I 9 don't know if it says all that. 10 MR. : All right. It just says 11 you need to conduct a round. And then 12 different people interpret it different way. 13 MR. : Yeah. Yep. 14 MR. : All right. You said -. 15 MR. : But then again, if you don't 16 get the information, I can see it being missed. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Because if no one tells me 19 that the guy left -. 20 MR. : But if she says that I 21 know Reyes left, I know Epstein is by himself. 22 But I didn't know he needed a cellmate. 23 MR. : Mm-hm. 24 MR. : Does that make sense to 25 you at all? EFTA00111181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. : I mean. Unless she didn't 2 get the email or she's not -. I don't know how 3 it is. Maybe she wasn't aware. 4 MR. : But I mean that fact that 5 - again - those three things we talked about. 6 I understand you say like odd number or you 7 know that kind of stuff. But the fact that 8 there's an email that went out, there's the 9 hotlist that has his name on it, and the fact 10 that he's in the SHU and he's not one of those. 11 So one of those three, she should have at least 12 known, right, that Epstein was required to have 13 a cellmate? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So her saying I didn't 16 know. Is that to you like, of course you knew. 17 You're been around for a long time. Whereas -. 18 MR. : I mean I'm thinking she needs 19 - no one told her. 20 MR. : No one verbalized it Lc 21 her. 22 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 23 MR. : But do you think that 24 that's an appropriate excuse for a lieutenant? 25 Saying that I didn't know if those three things EFTA00111182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 are in place? 2 MR. : I'm not sure. 3 MR. : You're not sure. And I 4 know you don't want to like - you know - but 5 like - I'm just trying to reconcile it too. 6 Like alright, if you're saying you didn't know, 7 how is that possible if everybody else -. 8 Everybody else I talked to seems to know. 9 MR. : Then again, I told you the 10 hotlist and all that. That's things that's 11 like -. Like the email, even though it's out, 12 that's - there's no timeframe on that. 13 MR. : Yeah. But the fact that 14 they're still on the hotlist, I would think 15 that that would continue because the email went 16 out -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- but then you're also 19 placed on the hotlist. And if you're on the 20 hotlist it basically corresponds with that 21 email. Correct? 22 MR. : Yeah. But the hotlist is for 23 initial. So you get locked up, that's when I'm 24 checking. I know I'm checking to see if this 25 inmate is on the hotlist. Initially. EFTA00111183 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 MR. : So only when the hotlist 2 changes? You're not looking at the people that 3 are still on the hotlist? 4 MR. : Well I'm saying like if 5 there's ten on there. and a guy gets locked up 6 - Williams from 11 North. He comes and he just 7 got a psych alert and we make sure he get a 8 bunkie. He got a bunkie. He goes a month with 9 a bunkie. Day 31 we're not still - you know. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So in this 11 case you think even July 30th to August 9th 12 when the guy leaves that could be enough time 13 to say he doesn't need one anymore? 14 MR. : I mean I'm not psychology. 15 MR. : All right. And you don't 16 know of psychology making any more -? No one 17 told you -? 18 MR. : No one specified the time 19 frame - 20 MR. : I need to -. 21 MR. : -- about how long he was 22 going to be -. 23 MR. : Did anyone after July 24 30th after receiving that email, did anyone 25 walk to you about Epstein needing a cellmate? EFTA00111184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 MR. : Not that I recall. 2 MR. : No? Who should have? If 3 he in fact did continue to need a cellmate, who 4 should have told you? 5 MR. : I say psychology. 6 MR. : Psychology? Not the 7 captain or another lieutenant? It was 8 psychology? 9 MR. : Psychology. They deal with 10 that. 11 MR. : And who in psychology? 12 MR. : Any one of them. 13 MR. : Anybody? 14 MR. : Anyone. Hey, it's an email. 15 MR. : So just you think that 16 they should have continued like once a week or 17 something sending out an email? Or how often? 18 MR. : I mean -. 19 MR. : Because that wasn't even 20 two weeks after that email went out. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So like how soon should 23 they? 24 MR. : I don't think a weekly or you 25 know. EFTA00111185 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 MR. : That was maybe ten days. 2 MR. : Because I don't know. I 3 don't know. I know they (Indiscernible 4 *02:30:39) to us so I don't know their policy. 5 Because I know they supposed to follow-up. And 6 then there's steps to it. I don't know. I'm 7 not familiar with that policy. 8 MR. : Okay. But you think it 9 was psychology's - they're the ones that should 10 have made sure like there's people -- 11 MR. : Well they 12 MR. : -- in the SHU and the 13 MR. : They sent out the email to 14 us. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : They notified us. 17 MR. : But you're saying like 18 that could be like a day or two. It doesn't 19 mean that two weeks from there it matters. 20 MR. : Yeah, I mean. That happens 21 two weeks after that? Yeah. The guy goes to 22 court. He leaves. There's a time and 23 opportunity. And I don't think it's nobody's 24 fault. 25 MR. : You think it's just -? EFTA00111186 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : I just don't think it's 2 nobody's fault. 3 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 4 this sign - or any sign - hanging up saying 5 that he needed a cellmate, or he needed to be 6 30-minute rounds on him? 7 MR. : I definitely don't recall 8 that. Signs about you saying him needed rounds 9 or -? 10 MR. : That's the rounds. 11 MR. : No the one that - 12 MR. : And then you don't -. 13 MR. : Another one is. 14 MR. : Another one saying that 15 he was required to have a cellmate. 16 MR. : The sign? 17 MR. : So we've been told that 18 there was a sign saying that Epstein was 19 required to have a cellmate in the SHU on the 20 desk area. 21 MR. : Could have been. I don't 22 know. I don't be in the desk area. 23 MR. : So you don't - you're not 24 aware? But you know that there was a hotlist 25 at least. EFTA00111187 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 MR. : No. The hotlist is there. 2 It's been there since I was working there. The 3 hotlist is back there. And that's about it. 4 MR. : And do you know if 5 Epstein was on the hotlist? 6 MR. : No. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : You're not sure. 8 MR. : Do you have the hotlist? 9 MR. : Not with us. No. I don't 10 think. Do we have it? No. You said you 11 didn't even as the ops lieutenant you don't 12 recall specific conversations with anybody that 13 worked in the SHU on August 9th or 10th? No? 14 MR. : Specific conversation, no. 15 It was a regular day. 16 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I mean 17 up - leading from basically July 30th to August 18 9th. 19 MR. : Oh. About the -? 20 MR. : About the need for 21 checking on Epstein or a cellmate or anything 22 to do with Epstein? 23 MR. : No. All I know is when he 24 tried it the first time, he went to suicide 25 watch. Came off. And they put him with the EFTA00111188 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 other guy. No-no. They put him with someone 2 else. I don't know. 3 MR. : So initially he is with - 4 is it Tartaglione? 5 MR. : Tartaglione he was named. 6 Yeah. 7 MR. : And then he went to 8 suicide watch. 9 MR. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : Came back on Jul 30th 11 like that. So from July 30th to August 9th. 12 As ops lieutenant or otherwise, did you have 13 any conversations with anybody working on the 14 SHU - in the SHU - on August 9th or August 10th 15 about Epstein? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And what were those 18 conversations entail? 19 MR. : Uh you know just hey, leave 20 him with - just gotta make sure they got down 21 here early. You've got legal visits. Uh I 22 know he was asking for a phone call. This is 23 like basic you know regular stuff. 24 MR. : What about with regard to 25 making sure they're doing rounds or that he has EFTA00111189 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 a cellmate? Did you have any conversations 2 from the time you got that email on? After you 3 got that email, did you call down to the SHU 4 and say hey, or visit the SHU, and say hey make 5 sure he's got a -? 6 MR. : I can't recall. 7 MR. : Did you -? 8 MR. : And I wouldn't do it if I'm 9 not the - 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : You know? 12 MR. : Did you take any action 13 after receiving that email? Did you talk to 14 anybody about it? 15 MR. : I can't recall. 16 MR. : That email was Why 17 was that email sent out to all the lieutenants? 18 MR. : I told you. They send it out 19 every time someone comes off suicide watch. 20 MR. : Right. So what is the 21 purpose of that? 22 MR. : For the doing they job. 23 MR. : So by you getting it and 24 doing your job as like an ops lieutenant. Or 25 an activities' lieutenant. What does that EFTA00111190 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 that something that you're supposed to make 2 other people aware of? Or why do they provide 3 you with that information? 4 MR. : I think they required to. 5 MR. : They're required to? 6 MR. : I think they're required, or 7 it could be a reminder. Hey, by the way, this 8 guy's getting released off suicide watch and 9 placed him with an inmate in SHU. 10 MR. : But is it so you can then 11 follow-up to make sure the CO's know? Or there 12 must be a reason rather than just for your own 13 information. There's got to be. Usually 14 you're provided information for a specific 15 reason. So why are lieutenants provided that 16 information? Rather than just the SHU 17 lieutenant? Why are everybody else provided 18 it? 19 MR. : Uh I'm not sure. But they 20 send an email out to everybody though. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Lieutenants (Indiscernible 23 *02:35:05). 24 MR. : SO that's what I'm 25 saying. Well it's not an all-staff email. EFTA00111191 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 It's like -. 2 MR. : No. It's a correctional 3 services and correctional systems. Right? 4 MR. : Oh you can tell me. Here 5 I'll show you. I thought it was primarily 6 lieutenants. I mean I think a couple SHU staff 7 might be on there. But it's the three pages 8 behind it. 9 MR. : Okay. So suicide watch psych 10 observation update. So you got legal in here, 11 food service, case managers, lieutenants, unit 12 team -. 13 MR. : So by reviewing that are 14 you able to tell like is there a target 15 audience that they're 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : -- sending it out to? 18 MR. : This is to make everybody 19 aware. 20 MR. : Because it's not an all- 21 staff email though is it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : So who are they sending 24 it to? 25 MR. : Uh.... EFTA00111192 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 MR. : Like how do they come up 2 with that group of people to send it to? 3 MR. : It's the same way we do the 4 logs. We send it to eh same group every night. 5 MR. : What group is that? 6 MR. : Then Executive staff, then 7 lieutenants, then psychology, then a psycho 8 assistant, it's a 9 MR. : So is it all correctional 10 staff though? 11 MR. : Correctional staff yeah. 12 It's not all correctional officers though. 13 MR. : So is everybody but the 14 officers? 15 MR. : You got some officers on here 16 too. 17 MR. : But you're not sure how 18 they make that decision? 19 MR. : No. Yeah. You got medical, 20 lieutenants, food service, R&D, legal, duty 21 officer, yeah. I mean I think they would 22 probably do this it's for your information. 23 Like FYI. 24 MR. : But you know -. I 25 understand where the FYI. EFTA00111193 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 MR. : Is that a target audience? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : You're not clear on why 5 they -- 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:37:15) No. 7 MR. send it to those 8 specific people? Okay. But as far as you 9 receiving it. 10 MR. : Yeah, I can't recall if i 11 spoke to him about it up internal or not. 12 MR. : And that wouldn't be like 13 - that's not the way it works whereas provide 14 the information to lieutenants and the 15 lieutenants make sure that you provide the 16 information the COs? 17 MR. : It depends on your area. 18 Like if I'm the SHU lieutenant right now, 19 right. 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 21 MR. : So they say hey, this 22 guy's coming in. Make sure. Okay. Make sure 23 you know. I'm saying directly to the staff I'm 24 supervising. 25 MR. : Is it the ops EFTA00111194 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 lieutenant's job to make sure the SHU 2 lieutenant does it? 3 MR. : Mm. 4 MR. : Is there any oversight 5 there? Does the ops lieutenant kind of have 6 oversight over the SHU lieutenant? 7 MR. : I mean sometimes the SHU 8 lieutenant has rank on an ops lieutenant. 9 MR. : Oh. It depends on if 10 you're a 9 or an 11? 11 MR. : yeah. 12 MR. : All right. So it's not 13 based upon the position that you're holding? 14 Like the ops lieutenant doesn't - like that 15 position doesn't 16 MR. : I mean we don't supervise 17 lieutenants. No lieutenant supervises 18 lieutenants. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : That's - we have a 21 supervisor. 22 MR. : No-no-no. And again, 23 these are questions just for us to try to 24 understand how the operation works here. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111195 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 MR. : And it again, not placing 2 blame on you whatsoever. It's just trying to 3 figure out how is it supposed to work? If 4 they're saying it's you, are you supposed to do 5 something with that information? 6 MR. : I mean but the thing is they 7 follow-up into that time. 8 MR. : What do you mean? 9 MR. : He had a bunkie up until that 10 time. 11 MR. : Right. So they put it 12 out. He had a bunkie. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : And then he didn't. And 15 that's what we're trying to figure out. 16 MR. : And then (Indiscernible 17 *02:38:39). 18 MR. : Who - where was the 19 communication breakdown? Who should have at 20 that time taken action to make sure he had a 21 bunkie? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : And that's the whole 24 thing we're looking into. Who should have made 25 sure Epstein -? Once Reyes was removed and EFTA00111196 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 people were notified that he was removed. Who 2 should have taken action? 3 MR. : yeah. 4 MR. : And who in your opinion 5 should have? 6 MR. : I don't know man that's 7 tough one. Yeah. 8 MR. : But like even position 9 wise. Not to name names. What position should 10 have taken action? 11 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. I'm not 12 sure with that one there. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : I just - that just The 15 guy left and I mean, you know. 16 MR. : Now I'm just handing you 17 back this lieutenant log. 18 MR. : Mm-hm. 19 MR. : You know a few pages 20 back. But um did you - were you involved with 21 that lieutenant's log? Did you make any 22 entries on that lieutenant log on August 9th? 23 MR. : I'm not sure. 24 MR. : Yeah. Are you able to 25 tell by looking at it? Like is that something EFTA00111197 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 you can tell who made entries? Or is it anyone 2 can make an entry? 3 MR. : I mean we all can make an 4 entry. 5 MR. : Does it show like 6 initials or anything like that after an entry 7 was made? Does it show who made what entry? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : No? Does it show 10 anything with regard to Reyes on that 11 lieutenant's log? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : What does it say? 14 MR. : Reyes to pre-remove. 15 MR. : And what does that mean? 16 MR. : Pre-trial remove. 17 MR. : Does that mean that he's 18 leaving and he's not coming back? 19 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 20 MR. : What time does it say 21 that? 22 MR. : Or -. Yeah. Or -. Yeah. It 23 depends. 8:38. 24 MR. : So 8:38. Does that mean 25 at 8:39 pretrial to remove? Does that mean EFTA00111198 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 that they knew at 8:38 that he wasn't coming 2 back? 3 MR. : Not necessarily. 4 MR. : What does it mean? 5 MR. : It means that's when they put 6 the information in. 7 MR. : But I'm saying like what 8 the information says. Is that what normally 9 that people are going to court - what it says 10 for them - if they're coming back? 11 MR. Mm. No. Normally they say 12 it's taken off the count. Pretrial is removed. 13 So he was taken off the count from 7:00 to 6:00 14 he was taken off the count. 15 MR. : Are people that go to 16 court always taken off the count? 17 MR. : Mm. No. 18 MR. : So by looking at that, 19 that tells you that he was already WAB? 20 MR. Mm. I mean if they go to 21 Brooklyn, sometimes they take them off for a 22 different court. But this one here, I would 23 say yeah, taken off the count. And again I'm 24 not sure. I see pre-remove proof. Pre-remove. 25 MR. : But by saying pre-remove, EFTA00111199 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 does that mean it's more likely that he's 2 MR. HE's taken off the count. 3 MR. : -- not coming back? 4 MR. : Uh. Yeah. 5 MR. : And who would have that 6 entry? 7 MR. : Mm. I'm not sure. 8 MR. : Do you know if you made 9 that entry? 10 MR. : I'm not sure. 11 MR. : And there's no way to 12 tell? 13 MR. : Mm. 14 MR. : So I guess the question 15 is at approximately 8:30 , did we already know 16 as the BOP - did we already know hey, this 17 guy's probably not coming back? 18 MR. : Um. I'm not sure. 19 MR. : What does it show if he was 20 coming back? 21 MR. : That's why I say 8:00. 22 MR. : No-no-no. What would show? 23 MR. : If he was coming back? 24 MR. : You said that's it's pre- 25 remove. EFTA00111200 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : If he was coming back, what 3 would it show? Would it say pre-remove or 4 would it say something else? 5 MR. : See that's the thing is 6 mean. 7 MR. : Like not that he was 8 coming back. Like if he's just going to court, 9 and you don't know if he's coming back or not. 10 If he's going to court. 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : And he's not WAB. Would 13 it say that? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : So it would only say that 16 if they thought he wasn't coming back? 17 MR. Mm. Yeah. Probably. 18 MR. : All right. So then it 19 looks like from looking at that. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : At - by 8:38, we knew he 22 was probably not coming back? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : All right. And with that 25 knowledge, should have any action - or should EFTA00111201 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 have any notification at least been made of 2 hey, Epstein's cellmate is likely not coming 3 back. We need to start thinking about a new 4 cellmate. For the people that knew. 5 MR. : I'm not sure. You know. The 6 thing is this is when it was -. See our log is 7 not -. I could go in and see what time someone 8 left and input it. 9 MR. : Mm-hm. 10 MR. : That's what we do. At the 11 end of the shift. 12 MR. : So at 4:00 p.m. this 13 could have been updated is what you're saying? 14 Not at 8:30? 15 MR. : Uh probably like 3:00 around 16 there. Yeah. It's not the only one. 17 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 18 specifically, I'm just saying like later in the 19 day. 20 MR. : It's not an ongoing thing. 21 MR. : It could have been -. So 22 But does that But do you wouldn't put 23 8:38 - this is when that happened - if at 8:38 24 you dint' know that. Would you? 25 MR. : Well if I don't check it, I EFTA00111202 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 wouldn't know it. 2 MR. : Right. I'm not saying 3 you specifically. 4 MR. : No I mean anybody. If I go 5 on the computer and it has a time. And it says 6 these are the people that left. That's what 7 I'm going off of. 8 MR. : So -. 9 MR. : If I don't check it at 8:38 10 or - I won't know. 11 MR. : So when I say "you" 12 though I'm talking about BOP. So what I'm 13 saying is like the person who entered that. 14 They're entering it as if at 8:38 it was known 15 that he was likely not coming back. Is that 16 correct? 17 MR. : It was known to BOP. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying 21 "you" I'm saying -. 22 MR. : BOP. There's no officers 23 would yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. And who likely 25 would have entered that? Like who has access EFTA00111203 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 to enter that? Control and lieutenants. Who 2 else? 3 MR. Mm. I think that's about it. 4 MR. : All right. So at that 5 time, it would have been either you, 6 control. Correct? 7 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 8 MR. : But I'm just saying like 9 it's - you're the only two lieutenants on. And 10 then control. Right? 11 MR. : Again, I'm not sure. 12 MR. : And this is all just - I 13 didn't even realize this until we're now 14 reviewing it. So this isn't a - I promise you 15 this isn't like a setup. This is just trying 16 of figure out. 17 MR. : I'm not sure. Because what 18 if - what if I say hey, I didn't do the log. 19 Or what if hey, you forgot the log. You have 20 to do this. 21 MR. : What do you mean? 22 MR. : If you get an emergency. 23 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 24 MR. : Hey listen, believe me 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah. EFTA00111204 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 MR. : I ain't touch the log. All 2 right. Whatever. I got you. 3 MR. : Right-right. So you 4 don't - so what you're just saying is you don't 5 know if it was -- 6 MR. : I don't know. 7 MR. : -- you, 8 MR. : I don't know. 9 MR. : -- or control? 10 MR. : I don't know who did it. 11 MR. : All right. Because I 12 mean like I know like I'm pretty sure 13 knew he was going but he didn't know he wasn't 14 coming back. Is that correct? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : So that's - I think 17 that's what you're -. 18 MR. : Yeah. But the thing about it 19 with this is if I relieve you and you didn't do 20 nothing. Hey, you know, look out for me. I 21 got you next time. Okay. So just because it's 22 on day watch don't mean day watch staff did it. 23 MR. : So that -. 24 MR. : You know what I'm saying. 25 MR. : So that could have been EFTA00111205 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 filled out by someone other than that was even 2 present at 8:38? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : How would they know? 5 MR. : They got a computer. 6 MR. : What would they see at 7 the computer? 8 MR. : It's on Sentry. 9 MR. : So on Sentry it would say 10 if he was WAS or not? 11 MR. : All movement for the day. 12 MR. : Would that -? 13 MR. : All the movement. 14 MR. : And would that be 15 maintained for a long period of time? Or is 16 that constantly refreshed? 17 MR. : It refreshed until midnight. 18 MR. : And then you - at this 19 point in time would we be able to go back and 20 see what did it say? 21 MR. : I could come in at 10:00 or 22 11:00 at night and do a whole 24 hours of 23 movement. 24 MR. : All right. So you don't 25 know. EFTA00111206 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. : I don't know who did this. 2 Was it day watch or what? 3 MR. : And there's no way to 4 tell by looking at it? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Is there in Sentry any 7 way to tell who entered it? 8 MR. : We don't do the Sentry. We 9 just take the information off of Sentry. 10 MR. : Oh. Well who would have 11 put it in Sentry? 12 MR. : R&D. 13 MR. : Okay. So R&D could have 14 put it in Sentry and then whomever - either one 15 of the lieutenants or control would have typed 16 it in? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Or yeah somebody. 20 MR. : All right. So with this 21 information at 8:38, would it have been - if at 22 8:38 we knew that -? And when I say "we" - BOP 23 or whomever - R&D. control - knew that he was 24 going and likely not coming back. Who should 25 have starting making those notifications that EFTA00111207 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 MR. 4 time? 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR. 11 MR. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR. 25 220 Epstein was without a cellmate? Is that SHU staff? Is it lieutenants? : He said they known at this MR. : Yeah. So at 8:38, he's going WAB. He leaves with a brown paper bag and he' got stuff with him. He knows he's not coming back. Reyes is saying I'm out. I'm not coming back. : Mm-hm. : Who should have at that point should have it been the SHU staff that started making notifications? Hey, we know Epstein's cellmate is gone. We need to start making some rounds. Is that you know the ops or the activities' lieutenant should have said hey, he's gone. We've got to notify the captain. MR. : I mean the thing of it is. MR. : Like who should have -? MR. : I don't even know who the dude is. MR. : Right. : So for one, a regular staff wouldn't even know who bunkie is. EFTA00111208 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. : And that's where my 2 question. Should SHU have started saying like 3 this is - hey ops and activities' lieutenant. 4 This Reyes guy is Epstein's cellmate. We need 5 to start thinking about putting a cellmate and 6 getting a new cellmate assigned. 7 MR. : That's again if they 8 definitely knew he wasn't coming back. Just 9 because this - like you can get a pre-remove 10 MR. : And is that why -? 11 MR. : And then at 4:50 you get pre- 12 removed to such-and-such. 13 MR. : Okay. So is that why 14 memo that said, "possibly not coming 15 back and will likely need a new cellmate." Is 16 that why that's the appropriate response? 17 MR. : Possibly. Probably. Because 18 he knows who to tell. 19 MR. : And is that why you're 20 saying that they would have written possibly 21 because at this point it looks like it's 22 likely, but it's not definite. 23 MR. : Yeah. I could see him 24 could see that happening because like you said, 25 this happens all the time. EFTA00111209 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 MR. : All right. Because again 2 it says that inmate Reyes was going WAB and 3 possibly may not return. Also that inmate 4 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 5 from his attorney visit. So looks like they 6 knew - SHU. Should have told you - 7 activities' lieutenant - or - ops 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. : I mean. 10 MR. : I'm not saying that he 11 did or that you know. You already said you 12 dint'. 13 MR. : I'm not even saying that he 14 should have. 15 MR. : oh. 16 MR. : I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : If he was notified, and he 19 said it could be. Again I told you 8:00. 20 That's (Indiscernible *02:49:44) guys come in 21 all the time from court. 22 MR. : Yeah-yeah. But I'm just 23 saying with the fact that Epstein - everybody 24 knows he needs a cellmate. Should have they 25 notified up the chain of command at this point? EFTA00111210 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 MR. : What if he came back at 8:00? 2 MR. : But what I'm saying is 3 like the fact that they know it's possible and 4 likely. Should have they started making 5 notifications being that you were the ops 6 lieutenant for a long time. You were a 7 lieutenant now it seems for a number of years. 8 In your expert opinion as a lieutenant -- 9 MR. : Mm-hm. 10 MR. : Should these guys have 11 started making some notifications? 12 MR. Mm. That's hard to say. 13 Because if you pass on this information, 14 possibly the guy shows up at 8:00. What 15 notification I need to make? 16 MR. : Okay. So you were the 17 activities' lieutenant and was the 18 activities' lieutenant when that thing says 19 8:38. Do you believe -- 20 MR. : He said that um -. 21 MR. as that person who was 22 you know the ops and the activities' lieutenant 23 - those two people. Do you believe at that 24 time that these notifications should have been 25 made to you? Would have you - do you believe EFTA00111211 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 . 1 you should have been made aware? 2 MR. : At 8:30? 3 MR. : Or any time between 8:30 4 and I guess 1:50. During your shift. If your 5 shifted at 2:00 or 4:00. We don't know. 6 MR. : I'm not sure because this - 7 you see pre-removal all the time. They come 8 back. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : That's why I could see him 11 saying hey, this guy might not come back. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : But it's a possibility he 14 can. 15 MR. : So then -. 16 MR. : So to make notifications 17 MR. : If he did it this way -. 18 If told the oncoming staff this is 19 what's up, do you think he took appropriate 20 action? 21 MR. : Who? 22 MR. -: . If he in fact 23 24 MR. : By passing it on? 25 MR. : -- passed on that EFTA00111212 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 information saying hey guys, you know he's 2 saying he said it's the day of and 3 . Right as he's gone, that's Epstein's 4 cellmate. He's going to - like if he doesn't 5 come back, definitely he's going to need a 6 cellmate. 7 MR. : He said that to who you 8 saying? 9 MR. : Well this is what the 10 memo says. It says that - again, "On Friday, 11 August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., I 12 ) passed on to oncoming staff member 13 Officer and present shift staff - 14 and Officer - that inmate Reyes was 15 going WAB and possibly may not return. Also 16 that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate 17 upon arrival from his attorney visit." 18 MR. : Okay. So and 19 was on day watch? 20 MR. : Uh I don't know. :- 21 sounds like what he says is that he told 22 MR. -: 23 MR. : And these guys were also 24 present. 25 MR. : So in my expert option, at EFTA00111213 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 that time, he did the right thing. 2 MR. : All right. So by this, 3 he shouldn't have passed it up to the ops and 4 activities' lieutenant. He should have kept it 5 in-house until it was definite. 6 MR. : It's premature. Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. Because that would 8 have been premature prior to this time. 9 MR. : Yeah. Because like I said 10 that time. If he came back, then oh. I 11 thought you said we need to know to change him 12 out or we start - yeah. 13 MR. : And even keeping in mind 14 that both Tartaglione, or however you pronounce 15 his name. 16 MR. : Well after that I don't think 17 he was bunked with him after that. 18 MR. : Him and -. No-no-no. 19 What I'm saying is both of his previous inmates 20 - Epstein I'm saying - Reyes and Tartaglione 21 they were both vetted from the highest of 22 levels. Even with that knowledge, you think 23 that they should have still waited. 24 MR. : I mean I don't under -. 25 MR. : They were vetted by the EFTA00111214 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 captain, the warden, and the regional director. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : So obviously it took some 4 doing. 5 MR. Mm-hm. But didn't get -. 6 MR. : With that knowledge, do 7 you think that they should have told you? Or 8 no you still think it's premature. 9 MR. : At 1:50? Um. 10 MR. : Well I mean not at 1:50. 11 MR. : I mean I don't know. 12 MR. : It looks like 8:38. 13 MR. : Then again, I told you about 14 that. If I don't check for it, I don't know -. 15 MR. : no-no-no. I'm not saying 16 I'm not saying you checking for him. You 17 already 18 MR. : No. I'm talking about 19 anybody. 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But what 21 I'm saying like it appears that in looking at 22 that, it appears that they knew he was WAB 23 since 8:38, right? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So I'm saying between EFTA00111215 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 8:38 and whatever the end of your shift is -- 2 MR. : No one said nothing to us. 3 MR. : -- do you believe someone 4 should have said something to you? 5 MR. : I'm not sure. Because then 6 again, you could look at another log where 7 it'll say from pre-remove to ZA. You 8 understand? 9 MR. : Right. Because he didn't 10 actually -. 11 MR. : So that's why I could see him 12 saying well I'm letting y'all know. I'm 13 passing on to you and you because you're going 14 to be here. Possibly. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : I'm giving you the heads up. 17 MR. : So I guess -. And I 18 understood you answered that question. But 19 what I said was - considering the fact that it 20 takes at least almost an entire day to vet who 21 was even going to be placed with him, do you 22 think that they should have started moving this 23 up the chain of command knowing that this guy - 24 no inmate - just a regular inmate shouldn't be 25 placed with this guy. He needs to be vetted. EFTA00111216 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 It's vetted all the way up to the regional 2 director's level. 3 MR. : Yeah. I'm not sure on that 4 one. 5 MR. : Yeah sure. Yeah. All 6 right. Not sure. So is there anything else if 7 it says with Reyes? Does it say when he was 8 actually -- 9 MR. : It just says 8:38 pre- 10 removed. That means taken off the count. Now 11 if he comes back, it will say pre-removed to 12 ZA. And it kind of changes. 13 MR. : So because it says pre- 14 removed, there's no reason to note when they 15 were definitively told he wasn't coming back? 16 MR. : Yeah. This just means he 17 went to court. Right? So you have three going 18 out. Meaning you're off on count. 19 MR. : Mm-hm. 20 MR. : It could be in the Eastern 21 District - whatever. If you do come back, they 22 put you back on. 23 MR. : But only if you come 24 back. Otherwise, they won't name you again. 25 MR. : So this isn't definite. EFTA00111217 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. : It's indefinite? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. 4 MR. : I mean no this is not 5 definite. That means he's possibly - he could 6 come back. Just because it says pre-removed, 7 he'll come back. 8 MR. : But what I'm saying is 9 the fact that he didn't come back. Should have 10 there been another note saying he is now 11 definitely off of our books. 12 MR. : No. You just don't see it on 13 the - you just don't see it. 14 MR. : So just by him not being 15 back on it that just means hey, refer back -. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Hey, refer back to that 18 thing where it said that he was possibly not 19 coming back. 20 MR. : Yep. 21 MR. : There should not be any 22 more notes saying like he's gone. 23 MR. : No. Only think because if 24 I'm evening watch, the only think I'm checking 25 for is the pre-removed to the institution. So EFTA00111218 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 these three, hey did they come back today or 2 are they off the count? So there wouldn't be 3 no follow up. 4 MR. : SO there's no additional 5 -? There should have There's not another 6 line item that shouldn't be in there saying 7 that Reyes wasn't one of the individuals that 8 came back. 9 MR. : No because - because no. 10 MR. : So there's a pre-removed 11 but there's no line for removed. 12 MR. : No. Pre-removed means off the 13 count. He's out the building. Now if he comes 14 back -- 15 MR. : -- and you -? 16 MR. you just put him back in. 17 MR. : Okay. So that's the only 18 notification that should be made - should have 19 been made on the lieutenant's log? 20 MR. : Yeah. This one here? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : All right. And do you 24 mind just putting it like you did that last 25 one. Just a little star next to is. EFTA00111219 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. : I've just got a question real 2 quick. 3 MR. : Yes, please do. 4 MR. : This the 4:00 p.m. count, 5 right? 6 MR. : Mm-hm. 7 MR. : This outcount that you see 8 over here. 9 MR. : For ZD? 10 MR. : For ZA sorry. 11 MR. : ZA? 12 MR. : ZA. See that one? Is that 13 one? Who is that one for? Is that for Reyes? 14 MR. : Outcount. 15 MR. : Who normally gets marked off? 16 On the El that's outcount? 17 MR. : Well. 18 MR. : It means that he's still in 19 the facility? Or the inmates had - leave the 20 facility? 21 MR. : You never usually see an 22 outcount for that one though. I don't know 23 what assignment this is. 24 MR. : Say that again. 25 MR. : I'm not sure what assignment EFTA00111220 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 this is. 2 MR. : You don't know what account? 3 Okay. 4 MR. : Uh. It could have been some 5 type of -. 6 MR. : I was just trying to figure 7 out if they were still counting him as hey, 8 there's a possibility of him coming back. 9 They've left him as outcount. And eventually, 10 after evening they removed him from outcount. 11 MR. : No. So the outcount - oh I 12 know what you're saying now. You're traying to 13 say you mean who is the one that they have at 14 attorney conference. 15 MR. : See attorney conference we 16 know. That's -. 17 MR. : Yeah. That's the same thing. 18 MR. : That's the same thing? 19 MR. : Yeah. All the numbers is 20 repeats for the outcounts. 21 MR. : So you hear what he's 22 saying? 23 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 24 MR. : Ten, one, two. That 25 equals 13. One, one. Three plus one plus 13 EFTA00111221 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 plus two equals 19. 2 MR. : Got it. So at this point, 3 Reyes is completely off the count. 4 MR. : Yeah. 4:00. Yeah. He was 5 off at this time. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But the thing is he could 8 come back. 9 MR. : Got it. 10 MR. : That's why I'm saying that 11 I know you're saying that hey, should he have. 12 I can't say that. 13 MR. : So you're not like upset 14 at the fact that like he didn't notify you and 15 then you could have notified the captain. You 16 don't think that that would have been what he 17 should have done? 18 MR. : I mean yeah, that's 19 definitely helpful. And it would have been 20 appreciated. But to say that you know he's in 21 the wrong for not doing it and stuff like that. 22 I can't say that. 23 MR. : Okay. And he didn't 24 notify you? 25 MR. : No. Not that I recall. EFTA00111222 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : Okay. All right. So 2 we're going to move on from that. You can give 3 that back or you can hold onto it. Whatever 4 you want to do. Do you know about any cameras 5 in the MCC SHU that were not working on August 6 9th or 10th? 7 MR. : No. That they wasn't 8 working? 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Have you - did you ever - 12 were you made aware of that after August 9th? 13 Any cameras were not working? 14 MR. : I heard something about when 15 they was like checking videos and stuff. 16 MR. : What did you hear about 17 it? 18 MR. : That some of them was showing 19 grainy. 20 MR. : And who would have been 21 responsible for making sure the cameras were 22 working? 23 MR. : Mm. The facilities. 24 MR. : Who from facilities 25 should we speak with? EFTA00111223 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 MR. : I'm not sure. 2 MR. : Who worked in facilities? 3 MR. : Whoever they manager is. 4 Facilities manager. 5 MR. : Do you know who that 6 person was back in August? 7 MR. '19. 8 MR. : Or does III -? 9 MR. : It probably was vacant. 10 MR. : Vacant. Was there a 11 12 MR. , he was there. 13 MR. : Did he send - was he a 14 supervisor? 15 MR. : He's not a supervisor. 16 MR. : No? 17 MR. : He's a com tech though. He's 18 com tech. 19 MR. : Would he be somebody that 20 would be good to speak with on that? 21 MR. : Yeah. Probably. 22 MR. : All right. Were you 23 aware thought that prior to that time that they 24 weren't working? 25 MR. : The cameras? No. EFTA00111224 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : No? Okay. Who is BOP 2 employee 3 MR. : I know him. 4 MR. : Do you know what his 5 position was in August of 2019? 6 MR. : He would have been 7 (Indiscernible *03:00:48) 8 MR. : What does that role 9 entail? What is - his duties and 10 responsibilities? 11 MR. : He's a supervisor of a unit 12 team. 13 MR. : What unit team at the 14 time? Do you know? 15 MR. : I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Did you have any 17 communication with regard to Epstein with 18 19 MR. : Like what? 20 MR. : Just with him being 21 housed within the SHU. 22 MR. : I probably talked to him 23 about something but I don't recall nothing 24 specific. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111225 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. : No communication like that. 2 I don't know. 3 MR. : Did you ever provide him 4 with any kind of special instructions with 5 regard to Epstein? 6 MR. : Not that I recall. 7 MR. : No? What about -? Did 8 you ever communicate with regarding 9 rounds being conducted in the SHU or Epstein 10 needing a cellmate? 11 MR. : Not that I recall. 12 MR. : Are you aware that 13 allowed Epstein to make a telephone 14 call on the evening of August 9, 2019? 15 MR. Mm. I think I heard 16 something about that. I don't know was it 17 though. 18 MR. : No? 19 MR. : I just heard something. I 20 think he made a phone call though. 21 MR. : All right. So do you 22 know anything about involved with that 23 phone call? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. What is your EFTA00111226 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 understanding of the phone call that took place 2 on August 9th with Epstein's telephone call? 3 MR. : It was a regular phone call. 4 MR. : Did you hear that it was 5 made in the shower area? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Have you ever heard of 8 telephone calls being made in the shower area? 9 MR. : In the shower area? Yeah. 10 MR. : And what's the purpose of 11 that? 12 MR. : The cord can't reach. And 13 I'll say we got him (Indiscernible *03:02:16) 14 hey I'm going to give you a phone right now 15 while I'm -0 while you're right there. I don't 16 have to pull you out and it's like a time 17 consuming method. 18 MR. : Do you know if the line 19 that they would be using in that area would be 20 recorded line or a legal line? 21 MR. : It's two. There's two. 22 MR. : Okay. So would there be 23 any reason to provide someone with a legal line 24 that's not recorded? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111227 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : Would there a be a reason? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : So why if they provided 6 Epstein a phone call in the shower area for a 7 legal line, would that be wrong? 8 MR. : You mean an unmonitored line? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : If they gave him an 11 unmonitored line? 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Yeah. Unless you didn't know 14 which one it is. 15 MR. : And if they did know that 16 they gave him a legal line, that was an 17 unmonitored line, should someone have monitored 18 that call? 19 MR. : You can't though. You said 20 it was unmonitored. 21 MR. : No I mean like sit here 22 and listen to the call. 23 MR. : Oh you mean like - I mean 24 they do that all the time. I think they could 25 you know they let them call their legal EFTA00111228 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 attorneys. And yeah, they do that. 2 MR. : Okay. And if they didn't 3 do that. 4 MR. : I don't know if it's a 5 violation. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But it's not common. 8 MR. : Yeah. So let's say if 9 the captain even authorized it. Yeah, give him 10 his phone call. Just make sure you monitor it 11 and log it. 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : They didn't monitor it. 14 They didn't log it. Would that be a problem? 15 MR. : The captain telling me. 16 Yeah. 17 MR. : All right. Did you ever 18 hear of that practice taking place in the past? 19 MR. : Unmonitored calls? 20 MR. : Yeah. Or like letting 21 somebody in the SHU have a phone call on an 22 unmonitored line, walking away, letting that 23 person talk? 24 MR. : No. Now from an officer's 25 standpoint? EFTA00111229 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : You never seen that 4 before? Or heard about it? 5 MR. : Officers. No. 6 MR. : Okay. What is the policy 7 for inmates making a calls from the SHU? 8 MR. Mm. I do know they could get 9 - they got to come - there's a (Indiscernible 10 *03:04:12) in SHU that everyone has a line. A 11 compassionate phone line. And they get with 12 the chaplain they can make a phone call. Like 13 say that they might you only get one call every 14 30 days. So chaplain say hey, give this guy a 15 call. They come up. They bring him. They let 16 him use the compassionate phone. 17 MR. : And when you say -. 18 MR. : And that's about it. 19 MR. : What's a compassionate 20 phone? 21 MR. : Yeah. It's like something 22 they have a death in the family or something 23 like that. 24 MR. : But is that a monitored 25 call? EFTA00111230 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 MR. : I don't think so. But I mean 2 staff would stay with him. It's monitored 3 yeah. It's monitored. 4 MR. : So anybody in the staff. 5 It's either a monitored line or staff is with 6 them? Is that correct? 7 MR. : If it's monitored in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So when I say monitored, 11 I mean it's either a recorded line -. 12 MR. : Or you right there. 13 MR. : -- or you're right there. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : And what are the reasons 16 why you would give him an unrecorded line? Or 17 a non-recorded line? 18 MR. : Mm. I mean probably like an 19 emergency or something. 20 MR. : So for him -? 21 MR. : Definitely yeah. So like the 22 chaplain ain't the hey, you know, okay. 23 MR. : But if it was in the 24 shower area, they would actually have the 25 ability to do either a recorded line or a non- EFTA00111231 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 recorded line? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : They're right next to 4 each other? 5 MR. : It's a jack. Yeah. 6 MR. : Yeah. Okay. What about 7 - what's the MCC policy on conducting searches 8 in the SHU? Cell searches. 9 MR. : You have to search the cell. 10 MR. : Do you know about them 11 not conducting cell searches? 12 MR. : Staff not conducting? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Like what? 15 MR. : Like for instance here's 16 cell search from 9 South or the SHU on August 17 9th. It's one cell search. It was conducted 18 at 12:36 p.m. during the day by . It's 19 the only cell search that was conducted on 20 August 9th. 21 MR. : Hm. 22 MR. : Is that weird for you? 23 That you would see only one cell search 24 conducted on a day? 25 MR. : Meh. EFTA00111232 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 MR. : Are they supposed to 2 conduct more than one cell search? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : How many are they 5 supposed to conduct? 6 MR. : Five. 7 MR. : And is it at least five 8 on night watch? And during the day watch -? 9 MR. : Per shift. 10 MR. : What's that? 11 MR. : Per shift. 12 MR. : Per shift? Everyone's 13 supposed to do five? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Is that including the 16 morning watch? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So day watch and -? 19 MR. : Do area searches on morning 20 watch. 21 MR. : So your understanding is 22 that on day watch and on night watch it's 23 supposed to be five per shift? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : And are you aware if they EFTA00111233 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 weren't doing that? 2 MR. : Mm. 3 MR. : Or is this what you were 4 saying before? An abnormal day? 5 MR. : I mean I don't know. I 6 wasn't aware that they wasn't doing it. No. 7 MR. : Okay. Um and is there 8 any responsibility of the ops or activities' 9 lieutenant overseeing to make sure that these 10 cell searches are being conducted? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : There is? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And what is that 15 responsibility? 16 MR. : I mean pretty much we check 17 every 30 days. They've got to be done. Every 18 cell supposed to eb searched every 30 days. So 19 20 MR. : Every cell in there is 21 supposed to be searched every 30 days? 22 MR. : The whole unit yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. And that's where 24 the ops lieutenant and activities' lieutenant 25 come in? EFTA00111234 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 MR. : Any lieutenant. 2 MR. : Any lieutenant. 3 MR. : It's everybody's 4 responsibility. 5 MR. : So I guess what I'm 6 asking is on August 9th there's no SHU 7 lieutenant in there. As the activities' 8 lieutenant or the ops lieutenant on any of the 9 watches. Should have they been like making 10 sure that they were doing their job? 11 MR. Mm. I'm not sure. 12 MR. : You're not sure? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Because I mean that's in 15 TruScope. It's like you're not checking 16 TruScope at that time -- 17 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. anyways. You know. 19 MR. : And during your rounds 20 MR. : And on top of that I think 21 the cells - the cameras probably show the cells 22 being checked. I'm quite sure. They just 23 didn't log them. 24 MR. : All right. So you think 25 that they're actually searching them? EFTA00111235 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 MR. : They got to. 2 MR. : And not locking it? 3 MR. : You got to hey, get out. 4 You're doing a feed and cuff up, showers, you 5 come out and yeah. So they not locked. 6 MR. : But would it be 7 surprising to you to hear that there was a lot 8 of extra linens and clothing and all that kind 9 of stuff in the SHU? 10 MR. : That's not surprising. 11 MR. : So if they're doing cell 12 searches, wouldn't they take that stuff out and 13 keep them with the -? 14 MR. : I suppose so. Yeah. 15 MR. : All right. But you 16 believe that they were actually conducting the 17 cell searches? 18 MR. : I'm quite sure. More than 19 one was conducted. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : SO you think it was just 23 - this is all they logged but they probably did 24 more? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00111236 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. : Okay. All right. Do you 2 know anything about Epstein being authorized to 3 have pills in his cell in the SHU? 4 MR. : Pillows? 5 MR. : No. Pills. 6 MR. : Nah. 7 MR. : Pills. Like medication. 8 MR. : Nah. 9 MR. : Should have he been 10 allowed medication in his cell? 11 MR. : I mean inmates have 12 medication? 13 MR. : They do? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So in the SHU they're 16 allowed to have medication? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Is there ever a problem 19 with like OD-ing or anything like that? 20 MR. : I mean if it's - depending on 21 the medication, medical give is to them. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Some have self-carrying 24 medicines. 25 MR. : All right. And so that - EFTA00111237 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 and that's not abnormal for them to have their 2 own pill bottles and things like that in the 3 SHU? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : What can an inmate have 6 in their cell in the SHU? 7 MR. : T-shirt, boxes, washcloth, a 8 towel, depending on what season too. Blankets, 9 two sheets. 10 MR. : So they can have tow 11 blankets and two sheets? 12 MR. : Depending on the weather. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : And how much is available. 15 MR. : What about in August? 16 How many blankets and sheets could have they 17 had? 18 MR. : How many they could have? 19 MR. : Or are they allowed to 20 have? 21 MR. : Uh. It depends. Some of 22 them -. It depends. It they say hey, let them 23 keep it, two and two, let them keep it. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I say hey, you need to - you EFTA00111238 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 know. They go down to one. 2 MR. : Would it be ever 3 authorized to have more than two of each? 4 MR. : How many? Like an extra 5 blanket or something? 6 MR. : Yeah. Like if three 7 blankets or four blankets. 8 MR. : I don't know about four, but 9 an extra blanket I heard that especially in the 10 wintertime depending on the cells. 11 MR. : What about in August? 12 MR. : An extra blanket? 13 MR. : Or extra linens. 14 MR. : Nah. 15 MR. : Yeah. What about extra 16 clothing? 17 MR. : I mean it wouldn't be 18 authorized but they could get it. 19 MR. : How could they get it? 20 MR. : They could get it. They 21 could fish it themselves - inmates. 22 MR. : You mean they can like 23 throw a cord over ... over like the -? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : They do that? EFTA00111239 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. They fish. 2 MR. : All right. And would 3 that be caught on the cell search if they were 4 being conducted though? 5 MR. : Not all the time. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : And how would they miss 9 that? 10 MR. : What if I don't search that 11 cell today? 12 MR. : No I'm saying during the 13 cell searches. Like if they search their cell. 14 MR. : If they see the fishing line? 15 Yeah. 16 MR. : No-no-no. Not if they 17 see a fishing line. But if a cell is being 18 searched -- 19 MR. : And it has excessive linen? 20 MR. : And it has - would they 21 take it at that point? 22 MR. : Yeah. Usually they take it. 23 Yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. Anything else 25 they're allowed to have? EFTA00111240 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r- 1 MR. : Books. Food. Yeah. 2 MR. : All right. Do you know 3 if Epstein was given any special privileges to 4 have extra clothing or extra linens? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No? Do you know if he 7 had extra clothing or extra linens? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Who was making sure that 10 Epstein had the correct amount of clothing and 11 linens? 12 MR. : Not sure. 13 MR. : Would it be like the SHU 14 staff or the lieutenant or all of the above? 15 The SHU lieutenant? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. 17 MR. : Working in the SHU 18 though, or previously, you don't know who would 19 -? 20 MR. : Who is mentoring it? I mean. 21 MR. : Like who would be - who's 22 responsible? Not let - sounds like - looks 23 like no one was monitoring it but who was 24 actually responsible to make sure him and these 25 guys aren't supposed to have that many - that EFTA00111241 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 much clothing or linen. 2 MR. : I'm not sure. Because when 3 we used to do linen, you give me three, I give 4 you three. That's how we used to monitor it. 5 MR. : Yes. It's supposed to be 6 like a one-for-one exchange. 7 MR. : Yeah. So I don't know who's 8 responsible to keep an eye on his things 9 though. I uh 10 MR. : Typically who provides 11 inmates with their linens? 12 MR. : Staff. 13 MR. : Do lieutenants ever do 14 that? 15 MR. : No. Not really. 16 MR. : So it would be the staff 17 that's responsible then huh? 18 MR. : Yeah. That's why I say 19 (Indiscernible *03:12:15) responsibility I 20 guess then. 21 MR. : Okay. Does the SHU 22 lieutenant ever do it? 23 MR. : I mean, it could. I could if 24 I want to. 25 MR. : Yeah. But typically it EFTA00111242 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 would be the SHU staff? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. Any idea how 4 Epstein's interactions were with other inmates? 5 Did he ever have interactions with other 6 inmates really? 7 MR. : I don't know. I know when he 8 first got there, he told me some guy he was 9 nervous because his face was on the TV. And 10 guys might be trying to intimidate him. That's 11 about it though. 12 MR. : That was something he - 13 Epstein specifically told you? 14 MR. : He told the officer and then 15 the officer told me. He said, hey I didn't 16 know who he was. I was like alright. Let me 17 look into it. And then they moved him. 18 MR. : Where was he? 19 MR. : He was on - his first unit 20 think was 11 North. 21 MR. : So was he then in general 22 population? 23 MR. : When he first came here, he 24 was general population. 25 MR. : All right. So people EFTA00111243 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 that tell us that he was in the SHU the entire 2 time are incorrect? 3 MR. : When he first got through, he 4 was in general population. 5 MR. : And for how long was he 6 in general population? 7 MR. : Say about a day or two. 8 MR. : And are you the one that 9 actually moved him into the SHU? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Who did that? 12 MR. : I don't know. 13 MR. : All right. But an 14 officer reported it to you? And then you -? 15 MR. : Yeah. I know he was in 16 general population. 17 MR. : And what did you do with 18 the information when that was told? 19 MR. : What? 20 MR. : You said an officer said 21 he's worried about safety. 22 MR. : Yeah. I spoke to him. 23 MR. : You spoke to Epstein? 24 MR. : I wanted to know I said 25 what's going on. I said alright, we going to EFTA00111244 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 look into this. And then they moved him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But I guess my question 5 was did you report that information to someone? 6 And then it was - a person? 7 MR. : I don't remember. I know I 8 passed it on. I said hey, this guy, I think 9 he's high profile. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Look into it I think by the 12 captain or someone got together and they moved 13 him. Put him in place in the SHU. 14 MR. : Okay. And when was the 15 last time you interacted with Epstein? 16 MR. : I can't recall. 17 MR. : Did you have any 18 interactions with him on August 9th? 19 MR. : I could have. I don't know. 20 He's right there on the floor. So I could 21 have. 22 MR. : But you don't know. So 23 again, dude dies the next day. You can't 24 remember if the day before you talked with this 25 guy when it's like the biggest case ever? EFTA00111245 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 MR. : yeah. 2 MR. : You don't remember? 3 MR. : Uh-huh. `Cause I brung him 4 up to SHU a few times. But I don't know if I 5 did that day. 6 MR. : I'm just saying that kind 7 of sparks a little suspicion if -- 8 MR. : I know what you're saying. 9 MR. : -- it's like - if it's 10 like you can't even remember the last - if you 11 talked to him on that day - the day before. 12 MR. : I mean it's a big case. 13 get that. But I mean, you know, I have a job 14 like you know? 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah. I mean, I'm 16 just saying that that's going to create a 17 little -. 18 MR. : Yeah but I cannot remember if 19 I spoke to that dude that day. 20 MR. : Do you remember when was 21 the last time you saw him? 22 MR. : No. I'm probably assuming 23 that day. If he was in attorney conference. 24 MR. : Um. And is that because 25 you would have visited attorney conference? EFTA00111246 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 MR. : Yeah. The elevator is right 2 there. I'm on the third floor here. Attorney 3 conference is there. If I wait right here in 4 the elevator, I see him. He's in the same room 5 every day. 6 MR. : But you can't remember if 7 you actually spoke with him on that day? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Would you typically speak 10 with him when he was in attorney conference? 11 MR. : The only time I used to speak 12 to him is if they say hey, you can bring this. 13 Hey, you going to SHU? Can you take him up? 14 All right. Come on. 15 MR. : All right. 16 MR. : Can I ask a question on that? 17 MR. : Yes. Please do. 18 MR. : Just in case, I mean I know 19 you said you don't remember, but that's his 20 last day. That's the last time you saw him. 21 Do you remember who he was with that day? 22 MR. : His lawyers. 23 MR. : Do you remember his demeanor? 24 MR. : Mm. 25 MR. : Was he upset? Was he EFTA00111247 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 yelling? Did he complain about anything? 2 MR. : He used to sleep a lot. 3 That's all I know. Sometimes you see him in 4 there, he's just laying on the table. His 5 lawyer is right there. 6 MR. : While he's with his 7 attorneys? 8 MR. : He was there -. He used to 9 be there from 8 from in the morning time all 10 the way to day watch and evening watch. 11 MR. : Around what time would he 12 show up there? 13 MR. : Early. He'd be the first one 14 there. 15 MR. : And what time would that 16 be? 17 MR. : 8:00, 8:30. 18 MR. : And then what time would 19 he typically go back to the SHU? 20 MR. : Before - or attorney 21 conference over at 8:00. So about 8:00 22 MR. : So basically 8:00 a.m. to 23 8:00 p.m.? And who were the people that would 24 take him to attorney conference and then take 25 him back to the SHU? EFTA00111248 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 MR. : I told you. Like I said, 2 I've done it sometimes. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : But typically, hey get the 5 guy ready in SHU. Bring him down. If R&D's 6 out there, hey we got to move him. You know. 7 I'll take him down. 8 MR. : Mm-hm. 9 MR. : Whoever's going that way. 10 MR. : Did you take him either 11 there to attorney conference or back to the SHU 12 on August 9th? 13 MR. : I don't think so. I can't 14 recall. 15 MR. : Were you still at the MCC 16 at around 8:00 p.m. on August 9th? 17 MR. : No. I wasn't there at 8:00. 18 MR. : And what time do you 19 believe that you left MCC on August 9th? 20 MR. : Uh between 2:00 and 4:00. 21 MR. : Sometime between 2:00 and 22 4:00. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : But you weren't back? So 25 he was in attorney conference all that time. EFTA00111249 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 So the last time you possibly could have 2 interacted with him would have been around 8:00 3 a.m. Correct? 4 MR. : I mean interacting like 5 talking to him? 6 MR. : Speaking with him. 7 MR. : Yeah. But I don't think I 8 I can't recall if I spoke -. I don't think I 9 spoke to him. But -- 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 11 MR. : I'm not sure if I did or I 12 didn't. 13 MR. : Okay. But -. 14 MR. : The last time would have been 15 I mean -. Yeah. If I stepped into attorney 16 conference and said something. But 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I don't recall that. 19 MR. : But you don't recall what 20 his demeanor was? Or state of mind? 21 MR. : That day? 22 MR. : Yeah. Um you just 23 mentioned the one thing where he was worried 24 because his - you know -. 25 MR. : Yeah. The first day he got EFTA00111250 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 here. 2 MR. : He told an officer. 3 MR. : He's saying hey, uh officer, 4 hey there's this guy up here. His face is 5 well we get those calls all the time. 6 MR. : Do you know of any other 7 complaints that he made? Did he ever complain 8 to you or you get any other information about 9 it? 10 MR. : While he was planning on 11 getting off of suicide watch. That's about it. 12 MR. : Okay. And was he making 13 those complaints to you about getting off of 14 suicide watch? 15 MR. : He was just saying hey, why 16 you guys got me like -. I'm like well you talk 17 to psych and then they'll talk to you and they 18 spoke to him and he went back up. 19 MR. : And what was this 20 complaint about? About being -? 21 MR. : He was saying why he was on 22 there yeah. He wanted his clothes and you 23 know. 24 MR. : So he didn't want to be 25 on suicide watch? EFTA00111251 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Is that what you're 3 saying? 4 MR. : No. He didn't want to. 5 MR. : So he wanted to go back 6 to the SHU? 7 MR. : Well he wanted to go -. 8 Yeah. 9 MR. : Do you know if he wanted 10 to be on the SHU? Or did he want to be in a 11 different area? 12 MR. : I don't know. 13 MR. : Did he ever tell that to 14 you? 15 MR. : No. Not to me. 16 MR. : Do you ever -? Do you 17 believe that he was in the correct place in the 18 SHU? Or do you believe he should have been on 19 like 10 South or G Tier? 20 MR. : I mean he can't be in G Tier. 21 Can't be in 10 South. He got to have a Bunkie, 22 right? 23 MR. : Well. I guess. It 24 depends on Do you know what the reason why 25 he would need a Bunkie? EFTA00111252 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 MR. : His suicide attempt. 2 Hotlist. 3 MR. : Do you ever put people 4 that are suicide attempts or hotlist in G Tier 5 or 10 South, so they have extra eyes on them? 6 MR. : Mm. I don't think. No one 7 in 10 South is on the hotlist. I don't recall. 8 MR. : What about G Tier? 9 What's their -? Who? What's the deal with G 10 Tier? Like who goes -- 11 MR. : Single cells. 12 MR. in there? 13 MR. : Single cells. 14 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But they 15 have cameras in there, right? Every one of 16 them gets - just like 10 South - but -? 17 MR. : Yeah but uh 9 South some of 18 the - some cameras in some of those. Psych 19 cells. 20 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 21 should have been in a cell with a camera in it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No? 24 MR. : I mean yeah, if you have to 25 have two. The ones with the cameras is single EFTA00111253 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 cell. You can't go there. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 3 MR. : You know? 4 MR. : So you believe he should 5 have had a cellmate and he should have been in 6 the regular SHU? Because we've had other 7 people say should have been on G tier. Should 8 have been on 10 South. But you believe -. 9 MR. : People are saying - I mean - 10 if you try to commit - like you just showed me 11 the memo. Right? So either he needs an extra 12 set of eyes on him and then the - that's even 13 worse. I'm going to put you in there by 14 yourself? You saying? For an extended time? 15 MR. : I guess but so people are 16 saying because officers are watching those 17 people at all times. Is that -? Are they 18 watching them at all times? 19 MR. : How? 20 MR. : On the cameras I don't 21 know. 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : SO they're not actually 24 being monitored? 25 MR. : They can't watch. No one can EFTA00111254 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 watch someone all the time. No. 2 MR. : Okay. So you think that 3 it would have been just as risky or if not more 4 risky with him being in G Tier or 10 South? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. Do 7 you know why Epstein was in prison? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Why? 10 MR. : Uh underage trafficking. 11 Child molestation. Charges like that. 12 MR. : And did you have any 13 specific feelings regarding why he was in 14 prison? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : How often would you speak 17 with Epstein? 18 MR. Uh whenever I needed to. 19 MR. : All right. Any kind of 20 conversation that had any substance to it? 21 Like a substantive conversation? Anything that 22 was like more than just like below? 23 MR. : Nah. 24 MR. : No? and you said you did 25 not work at all on August 20th? EFTA00111255 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 MR. : That's the day it happened, 2 right? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : I wasn't there. 5 MR. : And then you were 6 definitely gone by then - from the MCC 7 4:00 p.m. on August 9th? 8 MR. : I think so yeah. I think so. 9 MR. : And you may have bene 10 gone as early as 2:00 p.m. you just can't 11 recall? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : When was you next shift? 14 MR. : Mm. That happened on what - 15 Saturday? 16 MR. : Yeah. He was found on a 17 Saturday. 18 MR. : He died on Saturday, right? 19 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 20 MR. : Saturday. I don't know if 21 came in Sunday. I think I came in Sunday. 22 MR. : Okay. And did you at 23 that time did you speak with anybody about 24 Epstein's death? 25 MR. : I mean I knew about it. EFTA00111256 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 Everyone was talking about it. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. So what 3 was your understanding about how he died? 4 MR. : He hung himself. 5 MR. : Do you know anything 6 about anyone else taking his life? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : No? Do you know anything 9 about anyone assisting with taking his life? 10 MR. : Nah. 11 MR. : No. Do you believe that 12 Epstein took his own life? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Do you believe that 15 Epstein acted alone in taking his own life? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : All right. Then there's 18 only three more questions here. They're more 19 open-ended. What do you believe would have 20 prevented Epstein from dying? 21 MR. : Nothing. 22 MR. : Nothing? Do you think 23 that if he was - wanted to take his life he 24 would have done it? 25 MR. : If it was a regular inmate, I EFTA00111257 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 don't even think we would be - you know. 2 MR. : Um what are some of the 3 systematic problems inside the MCC? And 4 specifically the SHU that allowed for Epstein 5 to die? 6 MR. Mm. Systematic problems. 7 MR. : You know like -. 8 MR. : It sound like a union 9 question or something like that. 10 MR. : Well no it because like I 11 told you, we're trying to look into like. He 12 man, you're right. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : If another inmate died, 15 we're probably not going to be here talking to 16 you. But this is high-profile. We now need to 17 figure out what went wrong here. How do we fix 18 it? So in your opinion, what went wrong here? 19 MR. : I mean. 20 MR. : And how do we fix it? 21 We're from the government. We're here to help. 22 MR. : Yeah. My opinion, the whole 23 cellmate leaving. That's not on nobody. I'm 24 not. If I have the notice he had up until that 25 time and left for one day. Then this happens. EFTA00111258 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 I can't blame lieutenant, staff, notifications. 2 You know. Remember there's like 900 inmates in 3 there. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : I know he's high-profile, but 6 we also have to monitor other inmates. The 7 round situation. If that's true. That could 8 have been a little bit you know You've got 9 to make rounds in SHU. 10 MR. : Counts too though, right? 11 MR. : You've got to make rounds and 12 counts. 13 MR. : Now going back to there. 14 You say it's not on anybody. But if he's - 15 psychology is saying he's required to have a 16 cellmate. It's got to be on somebody. Right? 17 If he's on the hotlist. He's in SHU where he's 18 supposed to have a cellmate anyway. And 19 psychology is saying he's got to have a 20 cellmate. It's got to fall to somebody to make 21 sure. Hey, who is supposed to make sure this 22 guy has got a cellmate? His cellmate is gone. 23 He doesn't have a cell mate. 24 MR. : Mm-hm. 25 MR. : Because -. EFTA00111259 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 1 MR. : So if I know. If I get the 2 notice by 8:00. Right? So I'm evening watch 3 ops. I get the notice. Hey, this guy doesn't 4 have a cellmate. All right. What's my call? 5 I just throw him in there with anybody? 6 MR. : My thought - and from 7 talking to other people - are supposed to be 8 that SHU staff should have notified the ops 9 lieutenant or the activities' lieutenant. Who 10 then should have notified the captain? 11 MR. : Yeah. At 8:00. I could see 12 that. But at that time on day watch, hm-mm. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 14 MR. : It's a judgment call. 15 MR. : And I'm not talking about 16 at 8:00 a.m. I'm saying like what you just 17 said -- 18 MR. : I want to say we can't 19 (Indiscernible *03:24:48) notice. 20 MR. : -- you don't think that 21 the cellmate thing should be on anybody. Well 22 but it's like it's got to be on somebody. If 23 he's required to have a cellmate, somebody's 24 got to make sure he's got a cellmate. 25 MR. : Yeah. Yeah but what if I EFTA00111260 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 don't -. Remember these guys don't even - the 2 guys on evening watch wasn't even sure it was 3 right. It was overtime. I know 4 MR. : Well no, I'm not talking 5 6 MR. : I think worked -. 7 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm 8 talking it was 9 MR. : But if I'm the OIC. 10 MR. : I think and Noel. 11 MR. : He wasn't even in custody at 12 that time no more. 13 MR. : All right. So but you 14 got -. Tova Noel who -- 15 MR. : Mm-hm. 16 MR. : -- that's her quarterly 17 post. 18 MR. : She did a double that day, 19 right? 20 MR. : Well she - but yea but at 21 8:00 p.m. that was her first shift, right? 22 MR. : Mm-hm. 23 MR. : So we're talking - we're 24 not now talking about morning watch. We're 25 talking about - you're saying 8:00 p.m., right? EFTA00111261 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : So that's evening watch. 3 So we're looking at -. Where are we looking 4 at? 5 MR. : So if I know - if I'm 6 notified by 8:00. And I call the captain. Say 7 hey, this guy don't -. What's my next move 8 then? Throw him in there with anybody? Or 0? 9 MR. : Yeah, so we have 10 Noel, and 11 MR. : Mm-hm. 12 MR. : So yeah, I guess-. 13 MR. : I mean I can see them saying 14 - whoever said that. Because they say hey, 15 kick it up. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : You know. Kick it up. Kick 18 the blame up top. Now if I'm on, what do you 19 want me to do? Throw the guy in there with 20 anybody? Just because he have to have a 21 cellmate? 22 MR. : Well some people have 23 said that at the very least they would have put 24 him on like a dry cell type of a situation 25 where you've got a staff member on him until he EFTA00111262 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 can get placed with a cellmate. 2 MR. : Yeah. But that's a 3 questionable move too. 4 MR. : Um. 5 MR. : You want me to take him and 6 put him on - you know? 7 MR. : So you believe - so 1 8 guess. What is your belief then? 9 MR. : I mean there was a time and 10 opportunity. Guy wanted to take his life. The 11 inmate left. He saw the time and opportunity. 12 He did it. The officers - you know. 13 MR. : But don't -? 14 MR. : Uh yeah. 15 MR. : -- do you believe though 16 as a correctional officer it's the 17 responsibility to ensure that we ensure that 18 they don't die in our custody? 19 MR. : Well that's what the rounds 20 is for. That's why it's so important. 21 MR. : All right. So that's why 22 you think it's really the rounds and the count. 23 Not necessarily the cellmate but the rounds and 24 the counts. 25 MR. : Well in SHU, you required to EFTA00111263 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 do it. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : You have to do it. It's for 4 the inmate. 5 MR. : And if they're not doing 6 the rounds - the 30-minute rounds - that's 7 really the blame here? 8 MR. : That's a bad situation. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : It's a bad situation. 11 MR. : So you blame it on the 12 rounds way more than you would blame it on the 13 cellmate? 14 MR. : That's it. The cellmate, he 15 ain't here. Yeah. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : You know I mean that 18 happened. It's the same thing. I understand 19 they sent out the notification. There's no 20 time for any more than that. 21 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 22 MR. : Is an inmate goes hey, you 23 know, by the way, this guy was on - you sent 24 this out a month ago. He's not suicidal no 25 more. He said it. It's like you know. EFTA00111264 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 MR. : Well in this case I think 2 it was like 9 days. But yeah. 3 MR. : Yeah. But there's still no 4 timeframe. Some guys say they suicidal just to 5 get out of SHU and play the game. Go back in. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : But it's never saying hey 8 this guy is not. There's no memo saying he 9 does need a cellmate. 10 MR. : Would you agree though 11 that it's both? The fact that the was require 12 to have a cellmate and they weren't conducting 13 rounds? 14 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. : And that's where - when I 16 talk about the problems. 17 MR. : The thing is, that happened, 18 but it's - that can happen. Hey oh. His 19 Bunkie left. I didn't put a cellmate. That 20 can happen. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : You know. That can happen 23 here. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : You get inmates that was EFTA00111265 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 crying on level two. Hey, got to have a 2 cellmate. You moved him? Yeah. Oh you ain't 3 check? Oh you know. 4 MR. : Yeah. So I think what I 5 understand you saying is that the primary issue 6 is not doing rounds. Secondary and a much 7 lesser issue was that they didn't fill up his 8 cellmate. Is that correct? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. And are there any 11 other problems or violations occurring inside 12 the MCC that we should be made aware of? 13 MR. : Mm. 14 MR. : We're talking about the 15 MCC. 16 MR. : Violations? 17 MR. : Anything that we should 18 have known about that you think needs to be 19 fixed. 20 MR. : You got mandated. I know 21 that. You're working. 22 MR. : So there's - is what 23 you're saying then that they're severely 24 understaffed? 25 MR. : They was. I don't know how EFTA00111266 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 it is now. Buy they was. 2 MR. : And again when did you 3 leave there? 4 MR. Uh December '19. 5 MR. : December of 2019? At 6 that point they were still extremely over -? 7 MR. : Extremely. 8 MR. : What about - was there 9 anything that was being fixed ever since when 10 Epstein died and August of 2019. Did you see 11 anything being fixed by that point? 12 MR. : Uh. They did change the log. 13 I know that. 14 MR. : What does that mean? 15 MR. : They started putting inmates 16 that go to court. Just in case. We started 17 doing them and started attaching the PP38 to 18 the log. 19 MR. : So they would almost be 20 part of the outcount? 21 MR. : No. You could see. You 22 could see all the movement. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : You know. You could see all 25 the movement. They started single cell memos. EFTA00111267 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 Every time I need to know- every night. 2 Because I worked the morning. Every night I 3 need the -. Hey whose up there - single cell? 4 That was an every night thing. We started that 5 um. More rounds. More reiteration of doing 6 your rounds. Um. I know the rounds. They got 7 tighter with the rounds. The log. Mm. It was 8 some things. There were some things. As far 9 as staff, I think they did hire a class like 10 right before. But um. You know. 11 MR. : Now has that just been a 12 constant problem with um with the MCC with 13 being able to like fill -? 14 MR. : I mean that's Yeah. 15 That's been a problem for a while. It wasn't 16 like that when I first got there though. 17 MR. : And what is - why do you 18 think it's so hard to keep that place staffed? 19 MR. : Well uh I think they can't 20 compete. It's the pay. They're not competing 21 with other agencies. It's a tough job. 22 Working there is tough. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : It's not easy. I'll tell you 25 that. EFTA00111268 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 MR. : What it makes it so 2 tough? 3 MR. : You've got some unruly 4 inmates. 5 MR. : Yep. 6 MR. : You got a lot of unruly 7 inmates. You doing some long hours. 8 MR. : Are they doing long hours 9 though because it's understaffed? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And that's what I mean. 12 So it sounds to me, I mean an outsider's 13 perspective. Is that they need a lot more 14 employees. 15 MR. : No. They need that 16 definitely more employees. 17 MR. : Is there a way for us to 18 not only get employees but get good employees? 19 What would be a solution there? 20 MR. : I mean you got to recruit. 21 You got to take people that really want to do 22 the job. 23 MR. : Um. 24 MR. : I mean it takes some people 25 that. You know. Say hey, you can make this EFTA00111269 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 your first year. Just going to put some work 2 in it. You've got people that want it. You 3 know. That wants the money. 4 MR. : You think that it means 5 they should have like a higher pay at the MCC? 6 And the MDC? 7 MR. : Higher pay or you look for 8 people that are looking for opportunity. You 9 know. 10 MR. : Like as in make it like a 11 rotating place? You have to do a certain 12 amount of time there and then you can go to 13 like your choice location afterwards? 14 MR. : I mean. 15 MR. : What do you mean by 16 opportunity? I guess I should say. 17 MR. : Like I don't know. I know 18 the - I think it's a (Indiscernible *03:32:28) 19 problem there. Or credit something like that. 20 Is it? I don't know. I'm not sure. 21 MR. : I have -. We've 22 definitely talked to people that don't have 23 bachelor's degrees. 24 MR. : Yeah. But I think they have 25 um credits. I think they change it for EFTA00111270 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 credits. 2 MR. : Yeah. Some people have 3 said some college. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : That we've talked to that 6 they don't have -. 7 MR. : I think -. 8 MR. : I don't think I've talked 9 to anybody that said they didn't have any 10 college. But I mean I think it was like a 11 couple credits. You know. 12 MR. : Yeah. But I mean some people 13 without college, it's one opportunity to say 14 hey, you can make $60,000 your first year. I 15 just need you to show up and work. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Follow the rules. You know. 18 And the credit check I think was getting a lot 19 of people. 20 MR. : Is that right? 21 MR. : Yeah. Credit checks. I 22 think that's what weeds out a lot of people. 23 MR. : Now do you believe though 24 - on that note - if we're not doing credit 25 checks, we're letting that slide. Wouldn't EFTA00111271 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 that breed a potential problem with 2 introduction of contraband and being paid you 3 know for brining things in? 4 MR. : Bribery and stuff? 5 MR. : Yeah. Because that's a 6 big problem in the BOP. 7 MR. : Yeah. But I think that's -. 8 I mean you've got some people in there I mean. 9 That don't work. That don't. no. you could 10 be. I seen people get arrested with good 11 credit. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Six figures - making six 14 figures and do some corrupt stuff. 15 MR. : Right-right. 16 MR. : So. That's not it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I'm not saying take everyone. 19 But you know. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : It's like if you renting to 22 somebody and you a landlord. And you say 23 alright, I know you ain't got the top score, 24 but I see you pay your bills on time. You had 25 a little student loan debt here or whatever. EFTA00111272 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 I'll give you a shot. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : You know. 4 MR. : What have you got? 5 MR. : You mentioned that you saw 6 Epstein in the conference room. 7 MR. : Attorney conference. Yeah. 8 MR. : And sometimes he was 9 sleeping. 10 MR. : It looked like he was 11 sleeping. He would lay down on the table like 12 that. 13 MR. : Is that normal for inmates to 14 be sleep in the conference room? 15 MR. : To sleep? No. that's not 16 normal. Most guys is trying to get out. Saying 17 hey, you need to do this and do that. 18 MR. : Did anyone ever tell him to 19 wake up or address it? 20 MR. : I don't think so. 21 MR. : The reason I ask is like was 22 that a privilege that was allowed to Epstein? 23 To do that? 24 MR. : No. It wasn't a privilege. 25 I think the being that he was there from early EFTA00111273 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 in the morning to whatever time. The lawyers 2 probably like alright, let's look over this. 3 And he probably laying, and I'll wait until 4 y'all finished. And then alright, let's go. 5 But he also gets to buy out the vending machine 6 too. At first. 7 MR. : The vending machine? 8 MR. : Yeah. He used to get all his 9 snacks. 10 MR. : Yeah. Because you weren't 11 allowed to give him food in there right? 12 MR. : In the SHU? You got food. 13 MR. : Not in SHU. 14 MR. : In attorney -. 15 MR. : Attorney conference. I 16 was told that he basically had to get his own 17 food from the vending machines. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Was he allowed -? Would 20 people feed him - the BOP food - when he was in 21 attorney conference? Would they bring him a 22 tray? 23 MR. : Mm. No. I don't think so. 24 I don't even think he even at that. I'm not 25 sure. I don't even know if he even ate the BOP EFTA00111274 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 food. He probably just ate commissary. 2 MR. : Oh so there's a 3 commissary he could go to? 4 MR. : Sure. You could go to 5 commissary in SHU. 6 MR. : No. I'm talking about 7 because 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. he was always 8 with attorney conference. 9 MR. : Yeah. So he used to get 10 drinks and chips - snack food. 11 MR. : And that's what he would 12 just eat all day? 13 MR. : I don't know about all day. 14 But I know you know he'll have a - hey, make 15 sure when the lawyers come, they get his sodas 16 and drinks and they get us his chips. 17 MR. : Hm. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Do you know anything 20 about would he eat before he would go and then 21 be afforded a tray as soon as he got back to 22 SHU? 23 MR. Uh. I mean yeah . but that 24 wouldn't be -. That wouldn't be kind of 25 common. That's what any legal visit that we EFTA00111275 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 used to do. 2 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I'm just 3 saying if he's 7 days a week not eating - only 4 eating a bag of chips or something from 8:00 5 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., that seems like he'd get a 6 little more hungry than that. 7 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. I don't 8 know - I don't recall him getting a tray in 9 there though. 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. 11 MR. : Yeah. I don't know. 12 MR. : I don't know if he was or 13 not. That's why I was asking. 14 MR. : Yeah. But if he comes back 15 from there and they said hey that's my tray 16 from earlier and if he was in legal visit, we 17 would give it to him. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : I mean that's common 20 practice. 21 MR. : Let's say - once Reyes left 22 that morning. 23 MR. : Who? 24 MR. : Reyes. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111276 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 MR. : Once he left that morning, I 2 know there's like a sheet that keeps track of 3 all the inmates in the SHU. Right? They have 4 like a bed count sheet. 5 MR. : Bed book count. 6 MR. : Bed book count. Would that 7 book need to be updated? 8 MR. : That he left? Yeah. 9 MR. : Whose responsibility would 10 that have been? 11 MR. : Uh. I don't know officers. 12 MR. : So officers should have 13 updated it. Now let's say they went in 4:00 14 p.m. count. And then 9:00 p.m. count - god 15 forbid there was something off with the count. 16 They would have to pull out eh bed book and 17 verify it. Right? 18 MR. : If you get two bad counts. 19 MR. : Two bad counts. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : But if no one updated the 22 book, would that be an issue? 23 MR. : Well if you get two bad 24 counts, you've got to a bed book. And then 25 you'll find discrepancy. But then again, you EFTA00111277 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 know who usually updates the bed book count? 2 MR. : The lieutenant? 3 MR. : Morning watch. Because I'm 4 now - this is the new day - 12:01. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : This person's not here. Now 7 I know for a fact that this is what I'm 8 starting my day with - for the whole day. 9 MR. : I was going to show one - the 10 same document. You mentioned that when you 11 were working the SHU around 2:00 a.m. you would 12 have got the court document. Right? The 13 attorney would have brought it up. Or someone 14 would have brought up the document. 15 MR. : Yeah. It comes up on morning 16 watch. 17 MR. : If - I mean and we don't know 18 for sure if that was the same happening. Who 19 would have got that notification at 2:00 a.m. 20 on August 9th? 21 MR. : About the paperwork? 22 MR. : About the court documents. 23 MR. : Uh probably internal. 24 MR. : No who in the SHU. Who was 25 in the SHU at that point? Who would have EFTA00111278 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 gotten notified? Hey, listen Reyes is meeting 2 me in the morning. 3 MR. : Uh. and Thomas. 4 MR. -: Thomas? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And let's say the morning 7 came around. The shift changes and -. Who 8 would have notified um - they got the document? 9 They - Reyes is leaving. 10 MR. : Mm-hm. 11 MR. : Who would have notified 12 control or kept track of the fact that Reyes is 13 walking out of there? 14 MR. : And again I told you, see if 15 you don't - it's not a thought. It's not 16 coming on my radar until -. 17 MR. : No. I'm not saying that. 18 But who in the SHU would have been responsible? 19 MR. : Someone in the SHU like I 20 said evening watch around 8:00. If they're 21 saying hey, R&D they weren't back? Make sure 22 our count is right. But um. Yeah. 23 MR. : That's it. I just had to 24 clarify that. Thank you. 25 MR. : But just because Thomas EFTA00111279 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 and got that sheet, it doesn't mean 2 that they would have done anything at that 3 time, right? Wouldn't it have been the next 4 shift to get -? Who would have gotten him 5 ready to do at 8:30? 6 MR. : Well depending on what time. 7 I mean they could do it at 6:00. 8 MR. : They being? 9 MR. : Hey, whoever comes in at 10 6:00. Hey, he got court. 11 MR. : All right. So they would 12 have been the guys that probably getting 13 everybody ready to go to court? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Okay. At least giving 16 them notice. 17 MR. : Who was on shift to get Reyes 18 ready? If he left around 8:00. 19 MR. : Uh 20 Monge. 21 MR. • was though? 22 MR. was there at 6:00 23 yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : He was SHU 3. EFTA00111280 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. : Okay. At 6:00 a.m.? 2 MR. Yep. I see - wait. So I see 3 he notified his relief is what he's saying. 4 Right? was his relief at 2:00. 5 MR. : Yeah. According to that 6 memo. 7 MR. : Yeah. I mean yeah. It's one 8 of those situations. 9 MR. : That's all I got. 10 MR. : Okay. Cool. Anything 11 you got (Indiscernible *03:40:03). We had a 12 really long interview here. So I apologize for 13 that. But we do appreciate you bearing with 14 us. All right. It is 4:46 p.m. on Monday, 15 July 12, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 16 and I am turning off the 17 recorder. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00111281 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 294 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Marci Bratton, Transcriber EFTA00111282