EFTA00111539.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JULY 15, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00111539 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 4 5 6 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OTHER APPEARANCES: STACEY RICHMAN MATTHEW FOOKSMAN EFTA00111540 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 . The time is 11:15, I'm turning on the 3 recorder. Today is July 15, 2021. My name is 4 . I'm a Special Agent with the 5 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Inspector 6 General, New York Field Office and these are my 7 credentials. The interview is with the Federal 8 Bureau of Prisons employee, . It 9 is being conducted as part of an official U.S. 10 Department of Justice, Office of Inspector 11 General investigation. Today is July 15th. 12 The time is 11:16 a.m. The interview is being 13 conducted at Department of Justice Office of 14 Inspector General New York Field Office. Also 15 present is DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent 16 and please identify yourselves and - 17 18 MR. : Spell your last name for 19 the record. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. _: I, Federal Correctional Officer, MCC New York. 23 MS. RICHMAN: Stacey Richman, Richman Hill 24 and Associates, here to represent Mr. 25 and joining me is my Legal Intern for the EFTA00111541 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 summer. 2 MR. : Can you spell your last name 3 too please? 4 MS. RICHMAN: R-I-C-H-M-A-N. 5 MR. FOOKSMAN: My name is Matthew 6 Fooksman, F-O-O-K-S-M-A-N, Legal Intern for 7 Stacey Richman. 8 MR. : Again, I'm Special Agent 9 my last name is 10 MR. : I'm Senior Special Agent 11 and 12 these are my credentials. 13 MR. : This interview will be 14 recorded by me, Special Agent 15 This is an official DOJ investigation into the 16 death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the 17 surrounding circumstances. You are being asked 18 to voluntarily provide answers to our 19 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 20 interview with the DOJ OIG? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : I'm going to review DOJ OIC= 23 form 111-226-2, that's a Warnings and 24 Assurances form, Assurances to Employee 25 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary EFTA00111542 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 Basis. The form states, "You are being asked 2 to provide information as part of an 3 investigation being conducted by the Office of 4 Inspector General. This investigation is being 5 conducted pursuant to the Inspector General Act 6 of 1978, as amended. The investigation 7 pertains to job performance failure and 8 security failure. This is a voluntary 9 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 10 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 11 be taken against you if you choose not to 12 answer any questions. Any statement you 13 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 14 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 15 proceedings or both." The waiver states, "I 16 understand the warnings and assurances stated 17 above and I am willing to make a statement and 18 answer questions. No promises or threats have 19 been made to me or no pressure or coercion of 20 any kind has been used against me." Do you 21 understand that? You can read it if you have 22 to and if you understand, please sign under 23 where it says, "Employee signature." 24 MR. : And if you wanted to ask 25 any questions about it, this would be the time EFTA00111543 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 MR. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I'm 23 the 24 Agent. 25 to do that. MS. RICHMAN: Again, there is no concept here that Mr. the investigation, this is simply into the investigation of Mr. Epstein's demise. MR. witness. MS. RICHMAN: Yes. : For the - he's not a subject for the investigation. MS. RICHMAN: I'm like -. MR. : So everyone that we interview get this. This is just to be able to tell them what the investigation is focusing on. We don't have any reason to believe, although, we don't know how he's going to answer our absolutely to suspect is a target or subject of : As of right now, he's just a questions. Going into this, you are correct. We don't have any reason that your client did anything wrong. MS. RICHMAN: Thank you. MR. : This is Special Agent going to sign this under the signature of Office of the Inspector General, Special MR. : And as mentioned, prior EFTA00111544 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to, we just want to make sure that we stay 2 focused on this issue that we're discussing and 3 we do not deviate from the subject matter. All 4 right. This is Senior Special Agent 5 and I am signing as the witness. 6 MR. : Before starting the 7 interview, I would like to place you under 8 oath. Mr. can you please raise your 9 right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 10 nothing but the truth during this interview? 11 MR. : Yes, I do. 12 MR. : Please let me know if you 13 don't understand any questions I ask. I will 14 repeat it and/or I will kindly rephrase it for 15 you. Okay? 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : I want to clarify, again, 18 that this interview is specifically regarding 19 inmate Jeffrey Epstein. What is your current 20 home address? 21 MR. -: 22 Bronx, New York, 10469. 23 MR. : What is your date of birthf 24 MR. -: 25 MR. : What's your social security EFTA00111545 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 number? 2 MR. 3 MR. : What is your current cell 4 phone number? 5 MR. -: 6 MR. : What is your highest level of 7 education? 8 MR. : One year of college, maybe a 9 little less. 10 MR. : What college? 11 MR. : Mercy College. 12 MR. : Where is that located? 13 MR. : Bronx. 14 MR. : And what year did you do 15 that? 16 MR. : Wow. 2004, I want to say, 17 or `05. 18 MR. : Was there subject matter 19 that you studied? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : What did you do prior to 22 working for the BOP? 23 MR. : I was a police officer with 24 the Homeless Services Police in the city 25 shelters. EFTA00111546 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Is this for New York City? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And during what time? What 4 date? 5 MR. : 2004-ish to 2011-ish. 6 MR. : Do you have any military 7 service? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : And after 2011, did you join 10 the BOP? 11 MR. : Yes. From 2011 until now. 12 MR. : What was the entry on duty 13 date for BOP? 14 MR. : July 31, 2011. 15 MR. : When did you graduate from 16 BOP training? 17 MR. : September, I believe. 18 MR. : Of 2011? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : When and where was your first 21 office assignment with the BOP? 22 MR. : MCC New York. 23 MR. : Have you been with the MCC 24 the whole time? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00111547 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : And prior to that, you were 2 with the Homeless Service you mentioned, right? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. You were a police 5 officer? 6 MR. : Yes. And a Sergeant. 7 MR. : What was your position at the 8 MCC on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 9 MR. : Senior Officer Specialist. 10 MR. : And what shift did you work 11 on August 9th and 10th? 12 MR. : Evening watch, 4:00 to 13 midnight. 14 MR. : Both days? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Who was your supervisor when 17 you worked at the MCC on August 9th and 10th? 18 MR. : Wow. This was long ago. 19 MR. : So I have a daily assignment 20 roster here for August 9th and 10th -- 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : -- for the MCC New York. You 23 can take a look at it and let me know -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. -- if you know who that is, EFTA00111548 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 supervisor. 2 MR. : So he means your 3 supervisor on duty at the time. Okay? 4 MR. : Yes. So this is the 10th, 5 it says and the 9th says . Yeah. 6 They're both Lieutenants. 7 MR. : Would anyone else have 8 been your - would you also have reported to the 9 Activities Lieutenant or just -. 10 MR. : Yes. Activities on the 10th 11 was and on the 9th was 12 MS. RICHMAN: That's in reference to the 13 list that they just showed you. 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MS. RICHMAN: You didn't remember on your 16 own. 17 MR. : No, I can't - I mean, 18 they're obviously supervisors, but I didn't - I 19 don't remember who exactly worked for me that 20 day. 21 MR. : Okay. I'm just going to 22 leave this in front of you if you need to 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. : As part of - when we show you 25 the documents, it's not that you're attesting EFTA00111549 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 to the documents, we just need you to initial 2 it, date it, just to show - say that that is a 3 document we showed you. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So, just top right of the 6 document. 7 MR. : If you don't mind just 8 writing the -- 9 MS. RICHMAN: The date. 10 MR. : -- the date too. 11 MR. : Oh, the date? 12 MS. RICHMAN: So 7/15. 13 MR. : So on the 9th, what unit were 14 you working on, do you recall? 15 MR. : I believe I was Internal. 16 Let's double check that. Yes. 17 MR. : What about for the 10th? 18 MR. : Internal. 19 MR. : Internal. And as the 20 Internal Officer, what were your 21 responsibilities? 22 MR. : All movement in the 23 building. You control the elevators, so, you 24 know, any attorney that comes in, any inmate 25 that has to go to Medical, inmate that has to EFTA00111550 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 go to R&D or attorney conference, you're moving 2 them in the elevator, possibly staff and if 3 they need movement and you're first responder 4 in the building, so. 5 MR. : Do you recall what time you 6 started your shift on August 9th? 7 MR. : If I worked 4:00 to 12:00, I 8 should be, you know, there obviously a little 9 before 4 o'clock. 10 MR. : That's 4:00 p.m., 11 correct? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Are you familiar with Jeffrey 14 Epstein? Inmate Jeffrey Epstein? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : How do you know him? 17 MR. : Just from, you know, 18 bringing him to attorney conference and 19 obviously seeing him in the building, you know, 20 through movement and all that. 21 MR. : Do you know if Inmate Jeffrey 22 Epstein had a cell mate? 23 MR. : Yes, at one point he did 24 have a cell mate. 25 MR. : Do you know who that was? EFTA00111551 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : His first cell mate was 2 inmate Tartaglione and -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : -- yeah, that was his first 5 cell mate. 6 MR. : Do you recall why Epstein was 7 assigned a cell mate? 8 MR. : He was in Special Housing, 9 you just have a cell mate. That's, you know, 10 unless you're in protective custody, but he 11 wasn't under protective custody, he was just in 12 Special Housing, so. 13 MR. : So if you're in Special 14 Housing, you have to have a cell mate? 15 MR. : Yes. It's limited space so, 16 you know, unless you're there, like I said, in 17 protective custody where you can't have a cell 18 mate, that's different. But if there's room to 19 put - there's only a certain amount of room, so 20 you've got to bunkie up, you know, to 21 accommodate. 22 MR. : Was there any other reason 23 that Epstein was assigned a cell mate that you 24 were aware of? 25 MR. : No, not that I'm aware of. EFTA00111552 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 MR. : Were you aware that Epstein 2 had attempted to commit suicide on July 23rd? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Were you one of the 5 responding officers? 6 MR. : Yes, I was. 7 MR. : Can you explain what 8 transpired? 9 MR. : So, I was working Special 10 Housing Unit on overtime and me and the officer 11 had heard some sort of commotion and we were 12 about to do our round down that tier, I believe 13 it was M tier and inmate Tartaglione was his 14 bunkie and he was at the door asking for help. 15 We got there. When I looked, because 16 Tartaglione is a little bit big and the window 17 is small, I asked him to move to the side. I 18 saw Epstein with something tied around his 19 neck, but he was sitting on the floor. I told 20 him, you know, "Call for medical assistance," I 21 told my partner. We cuffed up Tartaglione, 22 took him out. I took it off from Epstein's 23 neck and we started doing CPR, but he was 24 breathing. You know, he was already breathing 25 and everything. EFTA00111553 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Did Epstein make any 2 statements to you -- 3 MR. : Nothing. 4 MR. and state what happened? 5 MR. : No, he was still not talking 6 when we got him out of the cell and put him on 7 the stretcher and when we took him out, he 8 spoke with Operations Lieutenant and someone 9 because I couldn't leave Special Housing, I had 10 to stay there so I don't know what he said. He 11 didn't say nothing to me personally. 12 MR. : Did Tartaglione make any 13 statements of what transpired? 14 MR. : He was just shooken up. He 15 was like, you know, that he was sleeping, 16 because Tartaglione slept on the floor, 17 something with his back he said. So he was 18 sleeping on the floor and he said he just felt 19 someone dump on him and he woke up, you know, 20 frightened and then, you know, that's it, so he 21 was shooken up, like he was still half asleep, 22 you know. 23 MR. : And when you walked in the 24 cell, just to clarify, when you walked in the 25 cell, you saw Epstein hanging? EFTA00111554 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 MR. : So, he had a sheet around 2 his neck, but he was on the floor on his butt. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So. 5 MR. : And where was - when you 6 walked - what part of the cell was he in? 7 MR. : Well, pretty much dead 8 center. The way the beds are set up, which I'm 9 sure you've seen the beds, there's nothing to 10 tie from the ceiling. So he had tied it from 11 the ladder and I guess he tried to cannonball, 12 that's what a lot of inmates try to do, like 13 grab their legs and go down. But it wasn't 14 tied hard enough so I guess he landed on his 15 butt. 16 MR. : So it wasn't hooked onto the 17 ladder? 18 MR. : Yeah, it was hook-. 19 MR. : It was hooked up. 20 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, I took it off of his 23 neck, but, yeah, it was hooked on the bed. 24 MR. : Do you have anything else on 25 that? EFTA00111555 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 MR. : Yes. So if it was hooked 2 on the ladder, did any part of it remain on the 3 ladder? 4 MR. : I don't remember, to be 5 honest. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : Truthfully. 8 MR. : And when you said, when 9 he jumped off and potentially like a cannonball 10 style, did he reach -. 11 MR. : Well, I'm assuming how he 12 jumped off. I didn't see him. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : So, yeah. 15 MR. : But he potentially landed 16 on Tartaglione? 17 MR. : Well, that's what 18 Tartaglione is saying, that that's how he woke 19 up because he felt him land on him. 20 MR. : Okay, 21 MR. : So. But when I got there, 22 yes, he was on the floor near the ladder in a 23 sitting position and it was around his neck. 24 MS. RICHMAN: Can you describe the sitting 25 position? EFTA00111556 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 MR. : His back was against the 2 ladder, so, you know, he wasn't laying flat. 3 But his legs were - one of his legs was 4 definitely straight out. I can't remember how 5 the - I think the other leg might have been 6 curved a little bit. But that's about it. He 7 was on his butt though and his back against the 8 ladder with, you know. 9 MR. : Did you hear anything 10 with regard to Tartaglione potentially 11 attempting to harm Epstein? 12 MR. : In the days prior, that was 13 the rumor that was circulating that allegedly 14 Epstein must have told someone, Operations or 15 whatnot, but no one has directly told me. I 16 just remember hearing it in the building. But 17 what I do know is when he came off suicide 18 watch, Epstein, he did ask to go back with 19 Tartaglione. 20 MR. : So when you say, "The 21 days prior," do you mean the days after? 22 MR. : I mean the days after, you 23 know, the days after he attempted suicide. He 24 went on suicide watch then his lawyers reached 25 out and said, you know, it was an attempted EFTA00111557 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 assault. I don't know what they said, but I 2 was there when they took him off suicide watch 3 and they said, you know, "It wasn't a suicide, 4 so take him off," but, you know, "Put him back 5 in Special Housing," whatever the case may be 6 and he asked to go back with Tartaglione and 7 the Lieutenant was like, "No, he can't do 8 that." So I'm assuming he told the Lieutenant 9 that it was an assault. 10 MR. : And do you - is the 11 assumption that he wasn't allowed because 12 Epstein -. 13 MR. : That's what I'm assuming, 14 yeah. 15 MR. : Because Eps-. 16 MR. : That's why they -. 17 MR. : So if - so Epstein - you 18 believe that Epstein did make a claim that 19 Tartaglione attempted to harm him and that's 20 why he wasn't allowed to be placed with him? 21 MR. : Yeah, I would have to assume 22 that because there would be no other reason why 23 not to put them back together. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111558 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : But Epstein specifically 2 did ask to be put back -- 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : -- with Tartaglione? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MS. RICHMAN: How do you know that? 7 MR. : Because I don't remember 8 exactly where I was bringing him but he was in 9 the elevator with me and he asked me why he 10 couldn't be paired up with him again and I 11 said, "I don't know. That's something you have 12 to ask the Operations Lieutenant." And he was 13 like, "Yeah, but I don't understand, you know, 14 we were bunkies, everything was cool." I said, 15 "Listen, I have nothing to do with that. 16 That's above my pay grade, you must have said 17 something though. They're not going to just 18 separate you guys for no reason." 19 MR. : And this was directly 20 from Epstein himself? 21 MR. : Yes, yes. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : He told me that in the 24 elevator. 25 MR. : Is there any reason for EFTA00111559 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 you to believe that Tartaglione in fact tried 2 to harm Epstein? 3 MR. : I don't think so. Reason 4 why I say I don't think so, I mean, I don't put 5 nothing past nobody because, you know, I don't 6 know them like that, but he was trying to stay 7 out of a lot of trouble because of what he was 8 facing with his own case. I don't know if 9 you're familiar with his case or whatnot and 10 I'm not -. 11 MR. : Please feel free to tell 12 us. 13 MR. : I mean, I just know he was 14 facing murder charges, that's all I know. 15 MR. : Tartaglione. 16 MR. : Yes. And he was real 17 concentrated on beating that case. And my 18 personal experience, someone trying to beat a 19 case is not going to try to kill someone else 20 while you're trying to beat a murder charge. 21 It just doesn't add up to me. 22 MR. : And do you know what 23 resulted in Tartaglione's case? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00111560 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MR. : No, I don't. 2 MR. : But he was at least - he 3 allegedly murdered someone, that's was what he 4 was in - do you feel like he was the right 5 person to be assigned to Epstein? 6 MR. : I mean, truthfully, he's had 7 other bunkies and there's never been an issue, 8 so I don't think it was like a bad choice, you 9 know. 10 MR. : Do you know how 11 Tartaglione was selected to be Epstein's 12 bunkie? 13 MR. : No, that I don't know. 14 MR. : No? Do you know if it 15 went above the heads of the staff in the SHU? 16 MR. : I wouldn't doubt it. 17 Because a lot of things that transpired with 18 Epstein was above our heads. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : You know, the judge would 21 call or whoever would call and then it would 22 come from the Captain who told the Lieutenant, 23 the Lieutenant would give the order. So a lot 24 of stuff was not the officers. Usually it's up 25 the officers in SHU. You, you know, "You do EFTA00111561 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this, you do that." A lot of stuff that happened with him came from outside orders. MR. MR. MR. Okay. Yeah. And you mentioned something about how Epstein was no longer suicidal and that's why they placed him back in the housing unit. Do you know why they made that determination that he was no longer suicidal? MR. : From what I heard, because obviously medical staff don't, you know, I have anybody. But from what clears them, so I no part in clearing I heard, the reason why he came off is his lawyers told something to the judge and the judge called the building saying, "He shouldn't be on suicide watch, get him off." Because when you're on suicide watch you don't get attorney visits. So, and he used to get attorney visits every day, like she said and he would have that room like from when attorney opens until when attorney conference closes. So when he went on suicide watch you don't get it no more. So I don't know what transpired, but the lawyers spoke to the judge EFTA00111562 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 and the judge called MCC and said, "Take him 2 off," you know, "He's to come off suicide 3 watch." 4 MR. : Where did you hear that 5 information from? 6 MR. : From the Ops Lieutenant. 7 MR. : Which Ops Lieutenant? 8 MR. : At that time, we'd done so 9 many hours and worked with so many people. I 10 was doing close to 72 hours a week some weeks, 11 you know, so -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : -- it could have been any - 14 I don't remember exactly what Lieutenant said 15 it, but I remember them saying he came off 16 suicide watch because of, you know, we got a 17 phone call saying he had to come off suicide 18 watch. 19 MR. : Who would have the judge 20 contacted to tell someone at the MCC that was 21 the call. 22 MR. : That would come from his 23 lawyers. 24 MR. : Would the lawyers have 25 contacted the AW, the Warden? Who do you EFTA00111563 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 believe they would have contacted? 2 MR. : Well, if you contact the 3 judge, the judge is going to contact the Warden 4 and then it trickles down. 5 MR. : Okay. And who was the 6 Warden at that time? 7 MR. • • (Phonetic Sp. 8 *00:18:14). 9 MR. : Was it 10 MR. : Actually, yes, it was 11 , I apologize. 12 MR. : All right, so, you -. 13 MR. : I've been gone 16 months -- 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. : -- it's like, you know. 16 MR. : Absolutely. Okay. And 17 then the other thing that I want to follow up 18 is (Indiscernible *00:18:39). 19 MR. : Yes, it was - at that time 20 it was Warden , that's my fault. 21 MR. : Do you know when, prior 22 to Epstein going on suicide watch, do you 23 remember what cell he was assigned to? 24 MR. : The exact cell number? 25 MR. : Even the tier would be EFTA00111564 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 fine. 2 MR. : Before he went on suicide 3 watch? I believe it was M tier, first cell on 4 the right. 5 MR. : M tier, first cell on the 6 right? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : If I'm not mistaken, before 10 he went on suicide watch you said. 11 MR. : Sure, yes. 12 MR. : Yes. It was because you go 13 down, it was to the (Indiscernible *00:18:57). 14 Yeah, it would be M tier, first cell on the 15 right. 16 MR. : On that note, after he 17 came back from suicide watch, do you know where 18 he was assigned? 19 MR. : Yes. It was L tier, the 20 tier above it, first cell on the right. 21 MR. : L tier, first cell - so 22 both times, first cells on the right? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : All right. And how do 25 you know that information? EFTA00111565 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 MR. : Well, one, I know because 2 I'll transport, you know, and I'm on Special 3 Housing quite a bit just bringing inmates back 4 from attorney conference or helping out, 5 whatever the case may be. But I know the first 6 cell because I'm the one that responded when 7 he, you know, tried to attempt suicide the 8 first time, so I remember that. And the second 9 one I know because, you know, I worked that 10 unit on overtime. Not the night he did it, but 11 so I know the cell he was in. 12 MR. : Okay. And you know the 13 cell because you were working in the unit you 14 said? 15 MR. : Yes, I had worked in that 16 unit after he was on suicide watch. 17 MR. : who actually brings 18 Epstein - who used to bring Epstein from the 19 SHU down to attorney visiting? Would that be 20 Internal or who would do that? 21 MR. : Well, what would happen is, 22 unless they're severely busy, but Internal, we 23 just meet them at the door. So whatever 24 officers are there, take him out of the thing, 25 you know, they get a phone call and then they EFTA00111566 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 call us on the radio, "Internal, we got one 2 ready for attorney conference, you want to come 3 upstairs." 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : They're at the door, they 6 hand them off or they come with us, whatever 7 they choose, you know, but -. 8 MR. : Right. So you're not 9 actually physically getting him from the cell 10 or -- 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : -- placing him back in 13 the cell. 14 MR. : I mean, has it happened? 15 Yes, if they're busy, severely busy or whatnot 16 or maybe the inmate is acting irate and they 17 just want extra staff, but normally, no. it's 18 whoever is posted there brings them and brings 19 them back, we're just the middle man, you know. 20 MR. : Okay. Do you remember 21 ever having to either retrieve Epstein from his 22 cell or place him back in the cell when he was 23 staying in the SHU? 24 MR. : Truthfully, no. I can't 25 MR. : Yeah, no, no, that's EFTA00111567 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 fine. I'm just trying - the only reason for 2 this questioning is to just positively 3 determine that you knew that's where he was 4 assigned. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : So, but -- 7 MR. : I mean, I know 8 MR. : -- just from working 9 MR. : -- that's where he was 10 assigned, but just, yeah. 11 MR. : And you know it from 12 working in the unit. 13 MR. : Yes, because I did a lot of 14 overtime over nights and I would be assigned 15 there and I know exactly from doing counts and 16 doing rounds and feeding or whatnot, so. 17 MR. : Okay. Great. And then 18 the other thing that you mentioned, before 19 moving on is, you said that that was not the 20 only inmate who was assigned to Epstein as a 21 cell mate. Who else was assigned to Epstein as 22 a cell mate. 23 MR. : So, I don't remember his 24 name and he wasn't there long. So I don't - I 25 truthfully don't even remember his face, but I EFTA00111568 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 remember he had another bunkie when he came 2 back and that guy, if I'm not mistaken, I could 3 be wrong, was shipped out either the day before 4 or the morning of when Epstein, you know, 5 killed himself. 6 MR. : Okay. So was there only 7 two cell mates that were assigned to Epstein? 8 MR. : That I know of, yes. 9 MR. : Okay, so one prior to the 10 suicide attempt and one after the -- 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : -- suicide attempt. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Great. , back 15 you. 16 MR. : Do you recognize the name 17 inmate Efrain Reyes? 18 MR. : No. Sorry. 19 MR. : So when he came back from 20 suicide watch, right, was he placed by himself 21 or was he placed with another inmate? 22 MR. : No, he was placed with the 23 other inmate that I can't remember exactly who 24 he was, but he had a bunkie when he first came 25 back. EFTA00111569 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 MR. : Now, was there a different 2 reason why he was placed with the inmate other 3 than the fact that there was less space? Was 4 there a specific reason? 5 MR. : I mean, truthfully, I don't 6 know. But it could be either or. That space 7 or because he was on suicide watch, you have to 8 have a bunkie, you know, but that's - I don't 9 know what the reason was, I just know he had a 10 bunkie. 11 MR. : Do you recall after he came 12 back from suicide watch, was there any specific 13 instructions that came down from the Captain or 14 the Lieutenants regarding Epstein? 15 MR. : No, not that I know of. 16 MR. : Are you familiar with the 17 court list? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : What is it? 20 MR. : So, in the morning or 21 sometimes the night before, it depends on when 22 they get it from the Marshals. The Marshals 23 send us a court list, it's printed out in R&D 24 and we hand it out to each unit and that's how 25 they know who got court in the morning or who EFTA00111570 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 got court in the afternoon. Sometimes, like I 2 said, they get it the night before, but that's 3 rarely. They most of the time get it like in 4 the morning sometime, you know, like overnight 5 maybe 4:00 in the morning you get it or 5:00 in 6 the morning or whatever. 7 MR. : So it rarely comes in the 8 night before? 9 MR. : Rarely. It has happened, 10 but rarely because there's so many changes. 11 You know how the courts are and everything so 12 the Marshals would rarely give us - but if it's 13 a slow day and maybe it's only a few inmates, 14 they get a list the night before, you know. 15 MR. : And what's exactly listed on 16 that list? 17 MR. : It says, whoever is getting 18 packed out like going to another institution or 19 air lift or whatever the case may be. Whoever 20 is going to court period. Basically just that 21 type of stuff, there's nothing else on there, 22 no. 23 MR. : So you mentioned, "Packed 24 out," what's packed out? 25 MR. : Packed out is if they're - EFTA00111571 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 it may be you're leaving in the next week to 2 another jail, so they're put on the list to 3 send him down with all his property so that it 4 can be inventoried and whatever he wants 5 shipped or whatever he's going to donate or 6 whatever the case may be and then he comes back 7 to the unit. So we call it packed out because 8 we'll tell the inmate, "You're being packed 9 out," so that's how he knows he's leaving soon 10 to pack his stuff and go to R&D. 11 MR. : Have you ever heard the term 12 WAS? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : What's that mean? 15 MR. : With all belongings. 16 MR. : Is that the same thing as 17 packed out? 18 MR. : Same, yeah, same thing. So, 19 when I say NAB, we say pack out, you know. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : But WAB, with all 22 belongings, yeah. 23 MR. : What's air lift? 24 MR. : Air lift, I'm not totally 25 sure on, but it's basically when the Marshals EFTA00111572 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 will come and pick someone up, and I'm assume 2 and I don't know if it's - where they're going 3 but they're coming - they're going somewhere, 4 so. 5 MR. : Okay. So the Marshals are 6 coming to pick them up. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : And -. 9 MR. : And maybe an Agent, you 10 know, depending on where they're going. But 11 MR. : Who creates this court list? 12 Did you say? 13 MR. : From my understanding, it 14 comes from the Marshals. 15 MR. : From Marshals to R&D? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : And what does R&D do? They 18 just pass on the list or they create a document 19 of their own? 20 MR. : I'm not sure, to be honest, 21 because I don't work in R&D like that. I mean, 22 I'm in and out of it, but as far as I know, 23 whenever we go to pick it up, it's just in R&D 24 ready already. So, I don't know, you know. I 25 know it comes from the Marshals because I've EFTA00111573 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 heard them say several times, like, "We're 2 waiting on the Marshals to send the court list 3 so we know who is going tomorrow." But as far 4 as if they alter it or do their own thing, that 5 I don't know. 6 MR. : And as Internal, does R&D 7 provide a copy to you? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And what do you do with the 10 11 MR. : On the elevator, we have 12 like a little box where our own paperwork or, 13 you know, we have a metal wand to wand people 14 down or whatnot. It's not big. So it would be 15 put there in our folder and when the next shift 16 comes on, they check the folder and they got 17 the court list also, you know, to 18 MR. : How many copies of that court 19 list do you think is made? 20 MR. : I mean, off the top of my 21 head, you figure each unit gets one, the 22 Lieutenant's office gets one, attorney 23 conference gets one. I don't -. 24 MR. : Just pretty much passed out 25 to all -. EFTA00111574 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 MR. : Yeah, yeah. Every area of 2 the building gets that and the call out list 3 and the SEP (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:59) roster and 4 all that. 5 MR. : You said normally - normally, 6 it should come the night before but sometimes 7 it comes 4:00 in the morning. 8 MR. : No, no, no. Once in a blue 9 it comes the night before, but normally it 10 comes like 3:00, between 3:00 and 5:00 in the 11 morning, you know, it will come. 12 MR. : And a copy is given to every 13 unit. 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : And is the list maintained in 16 a folder or computer somewhere? 17 MR. : I know R&D has it in the 18 computer. But -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- what happens is, once 21 they leave and they're keyed in, then obviously 22 it's in the computer, but you don't key it in 23 until they leave the building otherwise it 24 causes confusion. If I just look at the list 25 and key these people out, but then one don't go EFTA00111575 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 to court or one gets canceled, now our count is 2 off because I put four inmates out of the 3 building and four didn't go to court. You know 4 what I'm saying? So, the minute they leave, 5 yes, they're keyed out and it's all on the 6 computer. 7 MR. : Do you know if that document 8 is saved anywhere? 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:26:50). 10 MR. : That court list? Like, that 11 - you know, that court list that gets passed 12 out, do you think that 13 MR. : The hard copy or the 14 MR. : Hard copy, yeah. 15 MR. : -- one on the computer? 16 Truthfully, I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I would assume, you know, 19 the computer-wise, you could back track and 20 find it, but the hard copy, no, I don't, you 21 know. 22 MR. : And -. 23 MR. : Do you know how the 24 Marshals send it to R&D? Is it by email? 25 MR. : No idea, to be honest. EFTA00111576 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No idea? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : And when he asks about 4 the court list being in the computer, do you 5 know if the actual court list is in the 6 computer or they key the information off of the 7 court list into the computer? 8 MR. : So, I know if we go to the 9 control center where we do all count and 10 assignments, that's called C&A, that's all 11 keyed in. But R&D, I believe they have it in 12 the computer. 13 MR. : They have the actual 14 list? 15 MR. : Yeah, I'm assuming -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- because they have more 18 info on that than we do. So I would assume 19 they have something more than us, whether it's 20 the exact list in the computer or just 21 something close to it, but I don't know, you 22 know, I couldn't answer that exactly because, 23 like I said, I don't work there and -- 24 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. 25 MR. : -- my post, although it's EFTA00111577 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 mobile, I'm not, you know. 2 MR. : Who would be a person to 3 ask that question to? 4 MR. : Either someone from R&D or 5 someone that works what's called C&A and that's 6 Counts and Assignments. 7 MR. : Okay. And is Counts and 8 Assignments in R&D? 9 MR. : No, it's in the Control 10 Center. 11 MR. : Oh, Control Center. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : So someone in the Control 14 Center is actually assigned Counts and 15 Assignments? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Good to know. Are 18 you able to by looking at that document, 19 determine who that person was on August 9th? 20 MR. : August 9th, so it would be 21 Control #2 is usually C&A. So day shift was 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:30) and night 23 shift was 24 MR. : Okay. Thank you. 25 MR. : That's - yeah. No, that's EFTA00111578 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the 10th. You said the 9th, right? 2 MR. : Correct. 3 MR. : The 9th, day shift was 4 (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:45) and night shift 5 was (Phonetic Sp. *00:28:48). 6 MR. : Okay. When you said that 7 the Marshals don't send it usually until like 8 3:00 to potentially 5:00 a.m. Are you sure 9 they don't send it or is that when it's passed 10 out? 11 MR. : Truthfully, there's no - I 12 don't know. You know what I'm saying? 13 MR. : So what makes you believe 14 that the Marshals don't actually send it until 15 that time? 16 MR. : I mean, because so much 17 changes, you know, you're, you know, a lawyer 18 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- and so much changes with 21 the courts, you know, first thing in the 22 morning, what judge called out, what - so I'r 23 assuming they would wait as close as possible 24 to the time, you know, to get it out, I would 25 assume. EFTA00111579 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : You know, I could be -. 3 MR. : But that is an 4 assumption. 5 MR. : I could be wrong. It's an 6 assumption. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : I could - you know, there's 9 no way for me to know for sure, but you could 10 be right. Maybe it's coming in at 10:00 at 11 night and I don't even know because 12 MR. : (Indiscernible 13 *00:29:38). 14 MR. : -- they don't put it out 15 until 3:00 in the morning. You know, there's 16 no way for me to answer that. I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I can only tell you when I'm 19 used to getting it and putting it out. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : I know you didn't work - you 22 worked the evening watch on the 9th, right? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Would you happen to know who 25 was working R&D during morning watch or day EFTA00111580 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch? 2 MR. : So, there's no R&D morning 3 watch. 4 MR. : What about day watch? 5 MR. : Day watch, no, I wouldn't be 6 able to tell you. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : What about night watch? 9 MR. : Well, there's no overnight 10 R&D, but -. 11 MR. : They're not morning 12 watch, evening watch is what I'm saying. So 13 like the - you got your day watch and you got 14 your evening watch. 15 MR. : It might not be listed on 16 there. 17 MR. : I was just about to say -- 18 MR. : Do you recall? 19 MR. : -- it's not on here because 20 21 MR. : It's not. That's what he 22 was saying. 23 MR. : Oh, yeah, so no, I 24 definitely don't remember, to be honest, you 25 know. EFTA00111581 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 MR. : Okay, yeah. 2 MR. : When you worked on August 9th 3 as Internal, I know you came in the afternoon. 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you recall seeing the 6 court list for that day? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. What do they normally 9 do after all the inmates are gone, what do they 10 do with that court list. 11 MR. : It's still held because when 12 I come in at 4 o'clock, we do the 4 o'clock 13 count and we refer back to it sometimes. 14 MR. : To see who was there, who's - 15 16 MR. : Yeah, you know, if the count 17 is off, we'll look to see who they sent out and 18 we'll use the court list sometimes before we go 19 into the computer, so, usually it's saved on 20 the unit on a clipboard or something or a 21 folder. You know, something along those lines. 22 MR. : Are they supposed to retain 23 it or do they just dispose of it? 24 MR. : I mean, from just working 25 units years ago, usually once all the inmates EFTA00111582 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 are accounted for back in the building, it's 2 useless, it's gone because it's already in the 3 computer, you can backtrack and look that he 4 left for court or he left for whatever, so 5 there's no need for the paper, you know, after 6 they're back. Once the building is fully 7 stocked again, we really - it's irrelevant to 8 have that paper because in the computer, we 9 know where they went when they came back. 10 MR. : All right. Are you familiar 11 with something called the daily log? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Do you know if that court 14 list is used to update the daily log? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : How about the Lieutenant log? 17 Is it used to update the Lieutenant logs? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : But that also goes back to 21 when it's keyed in the computer. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : You know. And once it's 24 keyed into SENTRY, it's a ton of different 25 paperwork we get from SENTRY. EFTA00111583 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : What kind of paperwork? 2 MR. : The SEP rosters like I said 3 or the movement in the building. Like, 4 literally everything is in SENTRY, so what ends 5 up happening is the Lieutenant's log, the 6 officer's log, everything is - you could go 7 back in SENTRY and look and be like, "Oh, well, 8 inmate Daniels, the court list said he had 9 court but he never went to court because he got 10 injured playing basketball and they took him 11 out on a medical trip." So now, I go to SENTRY 12 and it will say that you weren't in court, but 13 you were out on a, you know, hospital, you were 14 out at a hospital that's why you're off the 15 count. So it's not that you never came back 16 from court, the court list said that you had 17 court so that's why the computer and the log is 18 necessary because now I look at the log and I'm 19 like, it's 2:00 in the morning, Daniels isn't 20 back from court, that makes no sense. No, you 21 never went to court, you're in the hospital 22 because you broke your finger playing 23 basketball. You know what I'm saying? 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : The PPBB-38 you're EFTA00111584 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 talking about? 2 MR. : Yeah, basically. 3 MS. RICHMAN: So SENTRY is the central 4 computer -- 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MS. RICHMAN: -- that MCC uses? 7 MR. : SENTRY is the main, yeah, 8 access to -. 9 MR. : So we know there's a 10 Lieutenant's log and is there a separate you 11 said for the officers also? 12 MR. : What do you mean? Like 13 TRUACCESS? 14 MR. : You said, "Officer's log." 15 MR. : Yeah, well, each unit, you 16 have TRUACCESS, it's, again, when I first 17 started, it was a big book, so that's why, you 18 know, but that was a long time ago and you 19 would write everything in the book. Now they 20 have TRUACCESS, you log in with your PIV card, 21 you log in and it's a whole layout of, you 22 know, you could do an inmate off the unit, you 23 can move an inmate off the unit, move him on, 24 you can move the cells, everything. So, if you 25 log into TRUACCESS, you could see everything EFTA00111585 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that happened the shift before you on that 2 unit. 3 MR. : And that would be the BP-38? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : This is something separate? 6 MR. : That's for the building. 7 He's - SENTRY is more broad, the whole jail. 8 But TRUACCESS is more directed straight for the 9 post you just took. 10 MR. : Do you recall during August 11 9th, what was being utilized, the book or the 12 TRUACCESS? 13 MR. : TRUACCESS. 14 MR. : Okay. If the daily log and 15 Lieutenant log shows pre-removal, what does 16 that mean? 17 MS. RICHMAN: Shows what? 18 MR. : Pre-removal. 19 MR. : Why don't you show it 20 them. 21 MR. : You know, this is the daily 22 log. 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Are you familiar with this? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00111586 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 MR. : If on that sheet - let's go 2 to the last -- 3 MR. : The third. 4 MR. third page. 5 MR. : I see, right - okay. 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:34:21) 7 just (Indiscernible *00:34:23) so as part of 8 the investigation, we know that inmate Efrain 9 Reyes was Epstein's cell mate. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : And so if you look at inmate 12 Reyes -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- what does that state next 15 to it? 16 MR. : Pre-removal. 17 MR. : What does that mean to you? 18 MR. : Truthfully, I couldn't tell 19 you. I mean, I've seen it before, but my post 20 doesn't deal with a lot of the lingo that they 21 use on SENTRY, so pre-removal, I mean, like I 22 said, I know he was shipped out, but - so it 23 has to do something I guess with that, but -. 24 MR. : Do you believe it would 25 be something to do with WAB or -- EFTA00111587 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Possibly. 2 MR. : -- being packed out? 3 MR. : If I had to take a guess, an 4 educated guess, yes. But to tell you exactly 5 what that means, I couldn't tell you, 6 unfortunately. 7 MR. : And that daily log -- 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. -- when is that filled out? 10 Do you know? Not in general. Who fills that 11 out and when is that filled out? 12 MR. : Well, this is a little bit - 13 many people have access to this. Not many, but 14 it's not just one person. But R&D could adjust 15 this log, Counts and Assignments, which is 16 Control #2, they could adjust this log and the 17 Lieutenant's office could adjust this log. So 18 that's the main areas that would adjust it. 19 MR. : And when would they 20 adjust those logs? Does that coincide with 21 being keyed in and keyed out or -. 22 MR. : Yeah. It happens, you know, 23 more times, I guess, during the day when court 24 happens and all that, but this could happen at 25 any time because inmates are constantly moving. EFTA00111588 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 Because as you can see, it's also from cell to 2 cell or unit to unit. So let's say at night 3 you come in and they're moving four inmates to 4 a different unit, this log has to get updated 5 even though it's in-house and they're only 6 moving unit to unit, you've got to know where 7 they are so that's why some of these are just 8 unit to unit, you could tell. 9 MR. : Are they supposed to do it 10 immediately or is it something that you can 11 wait until the next day to do it? 12 MR. : If, I mean, I don't know if 13 there's an exact rule, but I would assume it 14 has to happen the same day. I don't think the 15 next day would be beneficial for the, you know. 16 MR. : And this is key - is this log 17 correspond directly, like, let's say an inmate 18 gets keyed in and out. Would this get 19 automatically updated or this is a separate log 20 altogether? 21 MR. : Well, when you say, "Keyed 22 in and out," what do you mean? 23 MR. : Let's just say an inmate is 24 being moved from one cell - from one unit to 25 another, right? Someone has to key the inmate EFTA00111589 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 out from that unit -- 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : -- and key them into another 4 unit. 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Would this get automatically 7 updated or is this manually updated by 8 somebody? 9 MR. : Well, when you say, "Key," 10 this is what you're keying. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : You know what I'm saying? 13 So it's -. 14 MS. RICHMAN: "This," referring to what's 15 on this daily log document. 16 MR. : Exactly, yeah. So this is 17 what's updating when you're keying in and out. 18 MR. : So this is the key 19 document. So when someone is keying it, the 20 daily log is what they're doing? 21 MS. RICHMAN: That's the result. 22 MR. : Basically, yeah. 23 MR. : So is there another 24 system as well? 25 MR. : I mean -. EFTA00111590 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : Or is this what's in the 2 TRUACCESS or potentially TRUVIEW 3 MR. : TRUACCESS is basically just 4 for your unit. So that's not going to adjust 5 this. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : This is SENTRY. TRUACCESS 8 is just - so if I come in and I relieve you and 9 I look and I'm like, "Oh, inmate Biaz (Phonetic 10 Sp. *00:37:29) went to seven north, he's not on 11 five south no more," and you're like, "Yes." 12 Okay, now, that's not going to mess up my count 13 as I state and adjust this. 14 MR. : What's the difference 15 between that and BP-38? 16 MR. : This is, like I said, the 17 whole jail. So let's say you tell me he went 18 to seven north, which he really did, but for 19 whatever reason, they messed up on him, they 20 put him on seven south. When we do the count, 21 our count is going to be off. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : So when seven north calls in 24 their count, they're going to be like, "Bad 25 count." "What do you mean bad count?" "You're EFTA00111591 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 missing an inmate." Because on here, they've 2 got him on seven south. 3 MR. : So that's Internal's 4 document they use in order to verify their 5 counts? 6 MR. : This is the whole 7 building's, you know. 8 MR. : Because that's the -. 9 MR. : But this doesn't - 10 MR. : When you say Internal, 11 you mean Controls. Is that what -. 12 MR. : Yeah, yeah, Control, 13 everybody had - you know, they - this is the 14 main document, yes. 15 MR. : So this is - when Control 16 does their thing, this is what they use to say, 17 "Where are the inmates at right now?" 18 MR. : Well, Control just logs in 19 the computer. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : You know, because you have 22 I'm Control #1, you're Control #2, you're C&NA, 23 you know all the numbers for the building, 24 you're supposed to know so I'm not looking at 25 nothing, I'm saying, you know, "So and so - EFTA00111592 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 Officer, So and so, what's going on?" And he 2 just has it on the computer already logged in. 3 MR. : But when they - on this 4 section, I guess what I'm saying is like if 5 Reyes, for instance, is moved from point A to 6 point B, that automatically adjusts the count 7 that they see in Control? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Can you initial and date 11 that, on the top right there? Right there. Do 12 you recall seeing that document on the day you 13 came in, August 9th? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : And just for 16 clarification, we're just getting educated. 17 The line of our questions is because we don't 18 work in the BOP, so people tell us different 19 things. We just want to get more educated on 20 that document. Is there anything else that you 21 wanted to talk about? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No, I mean. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. RICHMAN: So they show the times of EFTA00111593 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 when people are moved as well, correct? 2 MR. : Yes. Well, that's the times 3 they're keyed. 4 MS. RICHMAN: Some keyed. 5 MR. : Exactly. 6 MR. : So if an individual is 7 moved from, for instance, the SHU down to R&D, 8 would it also be reflected on this document? 9 MR. : I believe so, to be - I 10 mean, everything is in SENTRY, but the problem 11 is, I don't want to say directly, because 12 there's PP-38s, there's PP-10s, there's PPs 13 forever -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- you know, not to sound 16 funny, but there's - so, you could key in 17 it's definitely in SENTRY. It's definitely in 18 SENTRY but I don't know if it would be on the 19 38 or -. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Absolutely. 23 MR. : You know. 24 MR. : And we'd be looking for 25 the pen for that. EFTA00111594 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 MR. : Okay. Do you recall - well, 2 you said you're not familiar - were you 3 familiar with Epstein's cell mate at all? 4 MR. : Which one? 5 MR. : Reyes. 6 MR. : Just by sight, like - like I 7 said, I didn't have much interaction with him. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : I've seen him, but he wasn't 10 a known inmate like that, so I don't know - 11 like Tartaglione had been there for years, so 12 obviously I remember him and he stands out to 13 me. The inmate, Reyes, that was - you said 14 Reyes, right? I saw him just in crossing, like 15 it was never - and then he left, so I don't 16 know, you know. 17 MR. : So people have told us 18 that everyone knew who Reyes was because he was 19 Epstein's cell mate. Do you agree with that or 20 disagree? 21 MR. : I mean, everybody knew 22 Epstein. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, they're probably right 25 because had he not been his bunkie, I probably EFTA00111595 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 wouldn't have noticed him. Quiet guy. I don't 2 know if he's ever been in a fight or any of 3 that, you know, so it's safe to say, had he not 4 been his bunkie, I might have not even 5 remembered what he looked like. 6 MR. : What about as far as just 7 his name? I know we're two years later, but at 8 that time two years ago, do you believe most 9 people in this institution, if not everyone, 10 would have known the name Reyes? 11 MR. : No, I don't think so. 12 MR. : Just by sight is why you 13 know him? You never believe you knew that 14 name, Reyes? 15 MR. : No, no. 16 MR. : So if -. 17 MS. RICHMAN: Also, it's a pretty common 18 name -- 19 MR. : I was just about to say 20 MR. : Totally. 21 MS. RICHMAN: to hear, yeah. 22 MR. that's why. Like it's -. 23 MR. : But I'm just saying, so, 24 like, you know, as you know, Reyes was moved 25 out from his cell mate. Do you believe EFTA00111596 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 someone, if they saw the name Reyes, would have 2 been like, "That's Epstein's bunkie." 3 MR. : No, not at all. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. RICHMAN: Do you know how long Reyes 6 was at MCC? Was it a short -. 7 MR. : That's the thing. I don't 8 know for sure but it had to be short. Like, if 9 I had to take an educated guess, I would say 10 short because I really don't remember anything 11 that stands out to me about him, like -. 12 MR. : On that note, do you 13 remember when Epstein came back from suicide 14 watch and psychological observation? 15 MR. : Do I remem- well, I remember 16 him getting off, like, I can't tell you exactly 17 18 MR. : Does around July 29th or 19 30th sound about right? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Maybe like almost about 22 10 days prior to Epstein dying? 23 MR. : Yeah. Because if I had to 24 take a guess, I'd say one or two weeks maybe or 25 the most, a month, it had to be between that EFTA00111597 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 time period. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : I'm trying to - it wasn't 4 long. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : It wasn't, you know 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Anything else? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Was there any talk about 11 Reyes leaving the institution that day between 12 13 MR. : When I came into work, he 14 was already gone, so. 15 MR. : Did any COs mention, "Hey, 16 listen, Reyes is gone?" Any actions to take? 17 Anything like that? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Do you know now, post- 20 Epstein, or at that time, do you know why 21 inmate Reyes was moved from the MCC? 22 MR. : No. 23 MS. RICHMAN: Do you know why? 24 MR. : We just know he went to court 25 and -. EFTA00111598 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:43:06) 2 3 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:43:06)? 4 MR. -- answer this question. 5 MR. : Yeah, we just - that's all 6 I'm saying. We just know he went to court. 7 Were you instructed on what action should be 8 taken if Reyes was removed from Epstein's - as 9 Epstein's cell mate? 10 MR. : That would be Special 11 Housing officers to, you know - no one would 12 give me any, you know, actions to take because 13 that's not my unit. I'm just moving - I'm just 14 bringing them. Like is said, we would help out 15 if they needed, but as far as that, if they 16 don't need help, I'm just passing them off to 17 them, so them, that's their post, they know 18 what actions they've got to take and all that. 19 MR. : Do you remember any special 20 instructions that were given to them in regards 21 to it? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : Now let's say Reyes left for 24 court. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111599 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right? How would the 2 institution know he wasn't coming back? 3 MR. : It's when they reach out and 4 tell us. 5 MR. : Who reaches out? 6 MR. : I'm assuming the Marshals. 7 But R&D would know better, but I'm assuming the 8 Marshals. 9 MR. : What time of day would they 10 notify? 11 MR. : I guess when courts is 12 closed. Like, not when they're closed, but 13 when everything is over because what would 14 happen is, the Marshals bring the inmates back, 15 so. 16 MR. : Around what time? 17 MR. : Whenever, you know, some 18 people last longer in courts than others, so. 19 But, as you know, some people get bail, some 20 people get released, some people get just 21 removed, period, wherever they go, but when the 22 Marshals come back, that's when everything gets 23 updated or shortly before it. Whenever they 24 got all the inmates in custody again, that's 25 when I guess everything gets updated. EFTA00111600 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Is there a specific time 2 period in the day where usually the Marshals 3 bring back inmates? 4 MR. : It ranges, you know? 5 Because I've came in at 4:00 and 4 o'clock 6 count and the Marshals were waiting. Then I've 7 came in and they're still bringing inmates at 8 7, 8 o'clock at night, so it -. 9 MR. : So on that note, they 10 come at different times of day or they always 11 come at one time? 12 MR. : No, as far as from my 13 experience, they bring people back at different 14 times of days. 15 MR. : Right. So the Marshal 16 MR. : Especially that it's 17 MR. : -- can be -. 18 MR. : -- not always the Marshals. 19 Sometimes Agents are bringing people back, 20 sometimes - you know. 21 MR. : So it's not like they 22 show up at 4:00 p.m. with everybody that's 23 coming back. 24 MR. : Exactly. 25 MR. : Like they come at EFTA00111601 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 different times. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : Like you could estimate, 5 like, "They should be here in a little while," 6 but there's no exact time where they're 7 bringing everybody back. It's not, you know. 8 MR. : Okay. Now let's say the 9 court does notify the R&D. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. "Hey, listen, a certain 12 inmate is not coming back." What's the process 13 after that? 14 MR. : Truthfully, these are a lot 15 of questions you've got to ask people in R&D. 16 I really - that's not my department, I don't 17 work in there. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : I just, you know, I go to 20 get the inmate after he's there and bring him 21 to his unit, but that's not my - I don't know 22 how the whole communication happens between 23 them and the outside agencies, I don't - you 24 know, that's not my own area. 25 MR. : And as Internal, would you EFTA00111602 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 ever be notified if a certain inmate is not 2 coming back? 3 MR. : I mean, yeah, they've told 4 me, because remember, we're doing the count. 5 So, they may say, when I come, they may be, 6 "Internal pick up two from R&D going back to 7 the housing unit," and when I come, they'd be 8 like, "Oh, Reyes ain't coming back for whatever 9 reason," but it's through passing, they don't 10 have to tell me because what happens is, 11 Control Center should be keying that in so that 12 when I do my count, I don't need to know that 13 because on SENTRY, it's already he's no longer 14 there and - you know what I'm saying? So if it 15 is, it's through common conversation but it's 16 not a must for them to tell me because where 17 we have the faith that everybody else did their 18 jobs and the computer is, you know, everything 19 is logged in and moved and accounted for so I 20 don't need to worry about that when I do my 21 count. 22 MR. : What count are you doing? 23 Like as Internal, where do you do the counts? 24 MR. : We do the 4 o'clock when we 25 come in. EFTA00111603 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Of what unit - what -. 2 MR. : The whole building. 3 MR. : How does that work? Explain. 4 MR. : You've got to count each 5 building. Sometimes, you know, maybe they have 6 a partner to count with them already, but we 7 still have to pick up the count slip and 8 everything, but at 4 o'clock, every unit has to 9 be counted. At 10 o'clock every unit has to be 10 counted. At -. 11 MR. : So you go to each unit and 12 assist with the counts? 13 MR. : If they need assistance. 14 Sometimes they don't. They have a partner 15 already or their relief helps them or counselor 16 helps them. Anybody can help them if they're 17 an employee. So I get there and they have the 18 count slip and they just give it to me, like, 19 "It's done already, here," you know. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. RICHMAN: The whole building freezes 22 for the count. 23 MR. : Yes. Well, you know that. 24 MS. RICHMAN: Yeah, well, I'm informing 25 them in case they don't know. EFTA00111604 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 MR. : Yeah. There's no movement, 2 there's no anything when the count is going on. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. RICHMAN: And when you said 10 5 o'clock, you meant 10:00 a.m. 6 MR. : No, no. Yeah. 7 MS. RICHMAN: 10:00 p.m. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Only on the weekends is 10 it the 10:00 a.m. count, correct? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : When you came in on August 13 9th, were you involved in any counts? 14 MR. : I would - the 4:00 p.m. 15 count I probably was involved in. I don't know 16 exact units I counted, but like I said, I 17 definitely picked up count slips and, you know. 18 MR. : You don't recall if you 19 assisted with the SHU count on August 9th. 20 MR. : I definitely didn't because 21 SHU has more than one officer so they count 22 their own unit. You know, they normally - 99.9 23 percent of the time, don't need a back on the 24 count. We call it a back on the count, someone 25 to back you up because you can't count by EFTA00111605 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 yourself. But they usually have, you know, 2 more than one officer to help them, so usually 3 only people inside SHU count SHU. 4 MR. : Do you recall who the 5 officers were in the SHU that day? Do the COs 6 fill out any paperwork for the count? 7 8 9 slips? 10 MR. : They hand it to us and we 11 bring it to the Control Center and the Control 12 Center gives it to Control #2, which is C&A, 13 Counts and Assignments and he does a cross list 14 based off of what he has in the computer and 15 what was counted on the units and he'd be the 16 one to say - because they also got to call it 17 in to them besides us giving them the paper. 18 So they'll tell them right there, "Good count," 19 that means you're good. "Bad count," count 20 again. And bad count means obviously you've 21 got the wrong numbers. 22 23 24 25 If you recount and it's a bad count again, they MR. : The count slip. MR. : And what happens to the count MR. happens? MR. : : If there's a bad count, what You got to recount, right? EFTA00111606 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 do what's a bed book count and we get a print 2 out of every inmate's ID and they've got to 3 come to the window, we look at their face, 4 they've got to say their name and ID number and 5 we keep moving. If it's still a bad count from 6 there, they got to make phone calls to Captain 7 and everything and let them know that we have 8 possibly an inmate that escaped or whatever. 9 That's the Lieutenants, I don't know, you know, 10 but I just know they get advised, like, 11 "Listen, we did two counts plus a bed book 12 count and it's still wrong." 13 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if you 14 got the count slips from the SHU on August 9th? 15 MR. : I'd be lying if I told you 16 if I did or didn't. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Is it possible? Yes. But 19 because I have a partner, he might have picked 20 it up and I didn't pick it up. You know what 21 I'm saying? So I don't remember exact what 22 units I grabbed or didn't grab. 23 MR. : Okay. We'll move on. If an 24 inmate is moved from the SHU to another unit, 25 can you explain the process including who would EFTA00111607 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have to be notified? 2 MR. : When you say, "Removed," 3 what do you mean? Like just -- 4 MR. : Let's just say 5 MR. : -- just sent back to general 6 population or -. 7 MR. : Or any other unit. If they 8 move into another unit, including R&D. 9 MR. : So if an inmate in SHU is on 10 what's called the kick out list, that means 11 their time is up, you know, with whatever they 12 went in SHU for, their time is up, they get put 13 on a kick out list and the kick out list gets 14 cleared by everybody, SIA, the Captain, R&D, 15 the Lieutenant, everybody signs off on it. 16 There's a bunch of people. So that usually 17 happens day time, and then by night time, 18 they're being kicked out because everything was 19 signed off on because they can't go to certain 20 units with separations or if they had a problem 21 on that unit. So it's a process. It's a lot 22 of forms they've got to go through. So, right 23 there, if it was on the kick out list, that's 24 how many people were notified and they already 25 know about it, you know. EFTA00111608 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 MR. : What about actually when your 2 physically moving the inmate? Let's just say 3 the SHU CO is taking the inmate and they're 4 getting ready to move out, who do they have to 5 - do they have to notify anybody or they just 6 can walk out with the inmate? 7 MR. : But you're saying move out 8 where? That's what -. 9 MR. : Like, let's just say they're 10 moving to R&D. They're taking an inmate from 11 the SHU and moving to R&D. 12 MR. : If they're going to R&D, 13 same sort of thing. They know already, you 14 know, everything that's going on. Now if 15 they're calling for us, they got to tell us, 16 like, "It's one from SHU," so we know no one 17 else could be in the elevator because they're 18 going to be handcuffed -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- and whatnot. So we can't 21 have no inmates and if they're going to R&D, we 22 got to say, "Clear R&D, we got one from SHU 23 coming," or attorney conference, lock everybody 24 in or move all the inmates because we're 25 bringing one to attorney conference. But, EFTA00111609 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 anything else beyond that, they already know 2 about it. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if any 4 inmates were moved after you started the shift 5 on August 9th, any inmates were moved from the 6 SHU? 7 MR. : No, I don't. 8 MR. : Do you recall seeing inmate 9 Fernandez being moved that day? Do you know 10 who inmate Fernandez is? 11 MR. : The name sounds familiar, 12 but I can't put a face to it. 13 MR. : Was there an inmate in R&D 14 that day? 15 MR. : There had to be an inmate in 16 R&D. I mean, every day there is, every week 17 there's inmates in R&D without a -. 18 MR. : Someone that was placed in a 19 dry room. 20 MR. : That I couldn't tell you. 21 MS. RICHMAN: In a dry room? 22 MR. : Correct. 23 MR. : A dry cell you mean? 24 MR. : Dry cell or dry room. 25 MR. : Dry cell, it's possible EFTA00111610 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 because there was a lot of inmates going on dry 2 cell at that time but I don't remember the 3 exact incident. 4 MR. : Okay. As Internal, and you 5 just mentioned it -- 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : -- if someone is coming on, 8 if someone is being moved, you call - you radio 9 it, right? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : You radio the receiving unit? 12 MR. : Well, they radio me. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So now, let's say you're 15 Special Housing and you're like, "Internal, can 16 you pick up one kick out, we got three kick 17 outs." 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And I come to you and you 20 hand me the kick out list, I look, I tell Seven 21 North, "You got one coming to you," you know, 22 "Seven South, you got one coming to you," and 23 I'll bring them. "Five North," whatever the 24 case may be. 25 MR. : Okay. Does Control get EFTA00111611 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 notified also? 2 MR. : Yes. Because they got to 3 update - C&A has to update all the, you know, 4 the SENTRY paperwork for the count and 5 everything. 6 MR. : And are they allowed to move 7 any inmates without notifying Control? 8 MR. : Cell to cell or unit to 9 unit? 10 MR. : Unit to unit. 11 MR. : No. Control has to figure 12 it out because it will mess the count up. If 13 you just move an inmate to Five North and tell 14 nobody, when we do the count, we're going to 15 want to know why your unit is short and his has 16 an extra body. So eventually, Control has to 17 be notified about something. Now, if it's just 18 cell to cell, you know, maybe your sink breaks 19 on the unit and you've got an empty cell over 20 there and you move him there. That's, you 21 know, and you do it yourself in the log, that's 22 different. But anything leaving the unit, 23 Control has to know. 24 MR. : Okay. And does Control have 25 to open the outer doors for each unit for EFTA00111612 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 people to move or can anyone open those doors? 2 MR. : Special Housing, they 3 control that front door and upstairs Super Max, 4 they control that front door. 5 MR. : This is Control you're 6 talking about. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Now, regular units, they 10 could control that door, but we have a key also 11 to open it because there's constant movement, 12 whether they're going to rec, general 13 population is movement all day. Who is going 14 to psychology, who is going here, so when we 15 come, they could open that door, but in an 16 emergency, Control can pop it. But Super Max, 17 which is Ten South and SHU, nine cell, that 18 front door, they don't have the key to. They 19 have to -. 20 MS. RICHMAN: It's all Control. 21 MR. : Yeah, it's all Control 22 popping that door. 23 MR. : Do you have anything else on 24 that? 25 MR. : After you're done, I'm EFTA00111613 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 going to go back. 2 MR. : Okay. And again, when you 3 were on shift that day, do you recall if any 4 inmates were in R&D? 5 MR. : Like I said, there's always 6 inmates in R&D so if I had to bet on it, yes, 7 I'm sure there was inmates in there, but I 8 don't remember exactly if there was inmates, 9 how many, you know, who was -. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : We're talking a long time 12 ago and a lot of stuff has happened since, you 13 know. 14 MR. : I'm going to move on. 15 MR. : (Indiscernible 16 *00:55:11). 17 MR. : Who is BOP employee 18 19 MR. -: . He's 20 Case Manager, I believe. I don't know the 21 exact title but he's Unit Team - Unit Manager 22 or Case Manager, I don't - it's one of those 23 titles. 24 MR. : Do you recall if he was 25 working on August 9th? EFTA00111614 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 MR. : The days surrounding the 2 incident, yes, he was working, I just can't 3 remember if I saw him that exact day. 4 MR. : Okay. Are you aware that 5 allowed Epstein to make a telephone 6 call on the evening of August 9th? 7 MR. : I knew Epstein made a phone 8 call, I didn't know who gave it to him though. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : I can't tell you exactly who 11 gave it to him. Usually it comes from Unit 12 Team, so I'm assuming it was someone from Unit 13 Team. But I - to say it was exactly 14 because I didn't witness the phone call, I just 15 know he had a phone call. 16 MR. : So how did you know there was 17 a phone call? 18 MR. : Because Epstein had 19 mentioned it. 20 MR. : To who? 21 MR. : In crossing, in the 22 elevator, just in general, you know. I know 23 his lawyer was happy that he had a phone call 24 finally, so, you know. 25 MR. : So you're talking about the EFTA00111615 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 evening of August 9th. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And this is when he's headed 4 back to the SHU? 5 MR. : Either heading back or going 6 - I just know that his - because, for a while, 7 he wanted what's called his PAC number. His 8 PAC number is so that he can make a phone call. 9 So the lawyer had asked me, like, "Who do I 10 have to talk to to get him his PAC number." 11 This is prior to March 9, or -- 12 MS. RICHMAN: August 9th. 13 MR. : -- August 9th, I'm sorry, 14 I'm all over the place - prior to August 9th. 15 He said, "Yeah," - she said, "He needs his PAC 16 number," just asked, "All right, I'll find out, 17 you know, why he didn't get his PAC number." 18 Turned out he had his PAC number, so I told her 19 the next day, I said, "He has his PAC number." 20 She said, "All right. He said he didn't have 21 it," blah, blah. So when I asked him, I said, 22 "Why did you tell your lawyer you don't have 23 it? You have it, you showed me." He said, 24 "No, but they said they monitor those phone 25 calls." I said, "Yeah. It's the jail," you EFTA00111616 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 know. So his lawyer then asked, how does he 2 get an unmonitored phone call, to me. I said, 3 "That goes on a different level, a Lieutenant 4 or Unit Team is the only ones that could do 5 that when they're in Special Housing. An 6 officer cannot do that." So after that, I 7 remember he kept on wanting a phone call from 8 either Unit Team or the Lieutenant but it was 9 never happening and then that day, I forget how 10 it came up, but he was happy, he was like, 11 "Yeah, I got my phone call finally." But it 12 wasn't like a whole conversation, I just 13 remember him saying it. So I know he got a 14 phone call. I just don't know who gave it to 15 him and, you know, what transpired that got him 16 that phone call, but I know he was finally 17 like, "I got the phone call," like happy about 18 it. 19 MR. : Were you present for the 20 phone call when he made the phone call? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Do you know where he made 23 that phone call? 24 MR. : In Special Housing. 25 MR. : And do you know how the phone EFTA00111617 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 call was made? 2 MR. : No. That I don't know, but 3 if I - in Special Housing, normally it's when 4 he's in his cell because the phone jacks are on 5 the tier. But one is monitored and one is 6 unmonitored. So, if Unit Team gave it to him, 7 you know, it was probably unmonitored. 8 MR. : Unmonitored? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Is that normal practice to 11 give it unmonitored? 12 MR. : When they're in Special 13 Housing, yes, so that they can reach out to 14 their lawyer and, you know, we're not allowed 15 to listen to that type of conversation. But, 16 the officer can't give him that phone call. 17 It's Unit Team or a supervisor and what 18 normally happens is they give the card, you 19 know, the lawyer's card, they'll call the 20 number, "Okay. It's here," and then, "Here," 21 and give the phone through his slot and then 22 it, you know, it cuts off at a certain time. 23 MR. : Now being that he was with 24 his lawyers all day and that phone call comes 25 around and what if it wasn't his lawyer that he EFTA00111618 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 called, what if it was somebody else? Is that 2 3 MR. : I mean, I'm not going to say 4 it's not possible. It's definitely possible, 5 but from what I've seen, when people get phone 6 calls, because I'm not allowed to give 7 unmonitored phone calls, but what I've seen is, 8 like I said, they'll dial it for the inmate and 9 wait and then, "Oh, Attorney Rodriguez office," 10 "Oh, okay, you have a client so and so?" 11 "Okay," and then they hand it. So, but if they 12 have the number written on a piece of paper and 13 you call it and the inmate tells you, "You're 14 my father," and I'm like, "Just say that you're 15 Attorney So and So," how do I know. You know 16 what I'm saying? There's no way to - so I'm 17 sure there's a lot of inmates that make 18 unmonitored phone calls and trick whoever is 19 giving it to them, but, as far as I know, 20 that's how they're able to judge if it's an 21 attorney or not. 22 MR. : Were you asked to monitor 23 that call that night and be with him when he 24 made that phone call that night? 25 MR. : No. Not - no. EFTA00111619 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 MR. : Have you heard of of 2 any of the COs allowing inmates to make calls 3 using the legal line to people other than 4 attorneys? 5 MR. : Well, the legal line is the 6 unmonitored line and, like I said, as far as I 7 know, no, but I'm not there every time someone 8 gets a phone call, you know, I can't vouch for 9 everybody that hits that tier and does 10 something. 11 MR. : That night when you saw him 12 at last, you mentioned that you had a 13 conversation with him in the -- 14 MR. : Elevator. 15 MR. : -- elevator. How was his 16 demeanor? 17 MR. : He seemed happy, you know, I 18 mean, happy that he got the phone call and 19 that's about it. Like nothing, you know, he 20 was starting to adapt. It seemed like he was 21 starting to adapt. Because when he first came 22 in, I think he thought like, "I'm getting out 23 of here." He had that mentality, like, "Oh, 24 I'm not going to be here long." Then it sunk 25 in that he was not going nowhere no time soon EFTA00111620 LIMITED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OFFICIAL USE and that's when he seemed a little down and then he started being, you know, I guess adapting I would say, he was getting used to things, like, you know. MR. : Okay. How was Epstein's interactions with other inmates? MR. : Truthfully, he was never 83 really around other inmates, just through the windows on the tier and because he was never in general population, so, whenever he was around an inmate it was - even when he went to attorney conference, he was locked in a room, so it was always just through passing, but -. MS. RICHMAN: I'm just getting the court appearance ready, so. MR. : Okay. We'll make it quickly. I only have a few more and I think he has follow up questions. MR. MR. threats made to Epstein? MR. MR. on August 10th MR. : Yeah. Yeah. Do you know if there was any : Not that I know of. Okay. And were you working when Epstein was found? : No. I worked the evening EFTA00111621 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 watch before he did it, so the 9th. I worked 2 until midnight and then that was it. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : I didn't work the night that 5 he - the overnight, so, when he actually did 6 it. 7 MR. : Yeah, so back to this PAC 8 number, so who provided him the PAC number to 9 be able to make phone calls, Epstein? 10 MR. : I don't know. Like I said, 11 I just asked him, "You never got a PAC number?" 12 And he was like, "What's the PAC number again?" 13 And when I described the paper, he showed me 14 the paper so someone gave it to him. 15 MR. : So you saw he had -- 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- actually. 18 MR. : I saw he had the actual 19 MR. : And when was that? 20 MR. : That was when he was still 21 with Tartaglione. 22 MR. : So that was actually even 23 prior to his suicide -- 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : -- attempt. EFTA00111622 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : And is it - in order to 3 have a PAC number, do you always have to 4 maintain possession of that -. 5 MR. : No, a lot of guys remember 6 it, you know, up here. 7 MR. : Okay. But if he was 8 provided it prior to Tartaglione, did that mean 9 that that would have still been his PAC number 10 after he came back from suicide watch? 11 MR. : Yes. Your PAC number is 12 your PAC number. 13 MR. : All right. And you're 14 positive he actually had one. 15 MR. : Well, I mean, he showed me a 16 paper with it. Whether it was someone else's 17 paper, why would he do that, but he showed me a 18 paper with a PAC number on it. 19 MR. : And he responded, "Yeah, 20 I have this, but I can't - but those calls are 21 monitored." 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. When you said on 24 August 9th, you know the telephone call took 25 place, do you know when the telephone call took EFTA00111623 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 place? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : So then you said you saw 4 him after the telephone call in the elevator? 5 MR. : I saw him after he left his 6 attorneys in the elevator because we picked him 7 up to bring him back to Special Housing. 8 MR. : Okay. So, that was 9 MR. : It think it was around that 10 time. 11 MR. : So when you saw him in 12 the -. 13 MS. RICHMAN: Can you give them the time 14 of day? 15 MR. : No. 16 MS. RICHMAN: Approximately? 17 MR. : Because I'm trying to 18 remember now if I heard it - I heard it in the 19 elevator for sure. I don't want to say it was 20 bringing him back because now I'm trying to 21 think if it was when I was bringing him back or 22 bringing him to. I don't know, to be honest, 23 it's -. 24 MR. : Do you know if he's the 25 one who told you that he got to make his EFTA00111624 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 telephone call? 2 MR. : Yes, that I know. 3 MR. : So you do know that 4 Epstein actually told you a telephone call was 5 made? 6 MR. : Yeah. Whether it - what 7 time of day it was on my shift, I can't 8 remember. 9 MR. : Now, did you -. 10 MR. : But I know he told me, like, 11 "I finally got my phone call," like, you know. 12 MR. : Okay. And was that - 13 were you in the SHU after he returned to the 14 SHU? 15 MR. : I probably brought inmates 16 back. I definitely had to touch SHU a few 17 times, I just don't remember exactly like if 18 passed him or, you know. 19 MR. : Do you remember 20 communicating with him? 21 MR. : In SHU? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : At his, like, cell? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111625 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 MR. : Because the only reason I 2 ask, because it's our understanding that he 3 actually placed that telephone call after he 4 came back from attorney conferences. But you 5 know that you actually spoke to him on his way 6 back -- 7 MR. : Unless -. 8 MR. : -- from attorney. 9 MR. : I mean, he said, yeah, 10 definitely happened before he came back. i 11 mean, he definitely said it. But, he could 12 have just been excited that they told him he 13 was going to get the phone call. 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : And maybe I just, in 16 crossing, then - I know he mentioned the phone 17 call and he was happy. 18 MR. : You're the one who 19 actually brought him from attorney conference 20 back up to the SHU? 21 MR. : That day? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Because it's me and my 24 partner, we both do it. So I can't remember 25 exactly that day if I brought him into the SHU EFTA00111626 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or if my partner did or both of us did, I 2 don't. 3 MR. : Okay. So this 4 conversation that you had with him though -. 5 MR. : It happened during my shift. 6 I don't know -. 7 MR. : But you don't know that 8 it happened on August 9th. 9 MR. : Yeah, it could have happened 10 - I thought it happened on August 9th, to be 11 honest. 12 MR. : No, no, no. So when you 13 were in the elevator with him, was anybody else 14 in the elevator with you? 15 MR. : Possibly my partner. 16 MR. : Would the Captain and or 17 been in there? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : No? 20 MR. : I mean as, not to say that 21 it would be crazy if they were because, yeah, 22 they could have been, but they definitely 23 weren't when this happened. 24 MR. : Were you in the elevator 25 at all when potentially the Captain authorized EFTA00111627 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the telephone call to 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : That, I definitely don't 7 remember. Yeah. 8 MR. : Is there a reason why the 9 Captain and would have been escorting 10 Epstein in the elevator back to the SHU? 11 MR. : Maybe we were caught up 12 doing something else because anybody can move 13 an inmate. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : It's not like -. 16 MR. : Was he going back and 17 forth from the SU throughout the day or was it 18 just once in the morning and once at night? 19 MR. : Most times it was just once 20 and once. But there was other, you know, 21 situation, maybe he was hungry or he forgot 22 something or his lawyer, for whatever reason, 23 had to step out to do something else and I 24 said, "I'll come back in a half hour." 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111628 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. : So it's not abnormal if he 2 went back and forth. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : You know, there were days 5 that I remember him going back and forth a few 6 times. 7 MR. : Do you know if on August 8 9th, the day before his death, he went back and 9 forth a few times? 10 MR. : No, to be honest. 11 MR. : You don't know. 12 MR. : Yeah. I can't remember. 13 MR. : Okay. And when they go 14 back and forth though, does Internal always 15 have to be with him or no? 16 MR. : No. That's what I'm saying. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You know, most of the time, 19 it's us because that's our post. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So let's say there was a 22 huge situation on one of the units and me and 23 the Internals handling it, they may ask another 24 officer that's freed up, like, "Listen, bring 25 him back," you know, or, "Do what you got to EFTA00111629 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 do," you know, it's not abnormal for someone 2 else to do it. 3 MR. : Okay. But you weren't 4 present for that telephone call and you didn't 5 overhear anything. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. I just want to 8 show you real quick. This won't take but 9 minute or two hopefully. Where is the 10 Lieutenant's log? 11 MR. : Which day are you looking 12 for? 13 MR. : The 9th. All right. So 14 according to the Lieutenant's log, you see at 15 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on dry 16 cell from the ZA. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : All right. So, if that 19 happens at 3:15, but the 4:00 p.m. count, 20 should have they had a count slip for him? 21 MR. : Well, what happens is - so, 22 it doesn't say where the dry cell - where they 23 moved him -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- to the dry cell. EFTA00111630 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MR. : It just says, "From ZA," 2 right. 3 MR. : Exactly. But -. 4 MR. : Read the top too. 5 MR. : Sorry, so the top says, 6 "Inmate Fernandez on dry cell with staff 7 watching R&D." 8 MR. : Okay, so there you go. So 9 what would happen is, especially that it's 10 specified right there, R&D would have their own 11 count slip. So R&D has their own count slips 12 sometimes because people come back from court, 13 let's say, right before the count and we didn't 14 get to put them back in the unit so they stay 15 in R&D. So there's plenty of times R&D will 16 give us a count slip, like, "We got three 17 inmates in here," "We got four inmates or one." 18 So, in this situation, he would be on R&D's 19 count slip. 20 MR. : Okay. Is R&D responsible 21 for calling someone, whether Internal or 22 Control to say, "Hey, we've got a count slip 23 for your guys?" 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : How does that work? EFTA00111631 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Well -. 2 MR. : Or do you just go to 3 every unit? 4 MR. : We go to every unit. 5 MR. : So you would have visited 6 - at 4:00 p.m., you would have visited R&D to 7 say, "Hey, you got a count slip for us?" 8 MR. : Well, it all depends because 9 what happens is, R&D has, you know, quite a bit 10 of staff members in it. So let's say, for 11 whatever reason, you work in R&D and you're 12 going downstairs for something, you'll bring 13 your own count slip down. And then, as I'm 14 doing the count, I'll ask Control, "What count 15 slips are you missing?" "Oh, Seven North and 16 Seven South," So I'm not even going to go to 17 R&D because you didn't say R&D, which means 18 someone brought you the count slip. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : You know what I'm saying? 21 So it's possible, yeah, we do go if we have to 22 but it's not always because sometimes people 23 bring the count slip down, you know. 24 MR. : Okay. So if at 3:15 he's 25 moved there, should have been a count slip for EFTA00111632 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him in R&D at 4:00 p.m. though? 2 MR. : I'm assuming that's, you 3 know. 3:15 is before I start work, but, you 4 know. 5 MR. : Okay. Yeah, no, for 6 sure, that's why I was wondering if like there 7 should have been a count. So there's no count 8 slip for him at 4:00 p.m. We're wondering if - 9 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. that's something that 12 there should have been. Now as far as - what 13 is this? I'm looking for the midnight. So as 14 far as this R&D count slip -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : -- do you see this one 17 right here? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : All right. So it says, 20 "One." 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : What would 95 plus + 1 23 mean? 24 MR. : Let me see it. 25 MR. : Do you know? EFTA00111633 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MR. : I don't know. MR. : You ever seen a plus + 1 before? MR. : Well, I've seen those people doodle, you know, like write their own thing in their head -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- trying to figure out a count, but I don't know where that would -. MR. : Could that be 9S plus + 1? MR. : Nine South, yeah. MR. : Oh yeah, Nine South plus, + 1? Okay. MR. : But -. MR. : Can you look at the ZA which is Nine South and see what that one says? MR. : What do you mean? MR. : So there's also the ZA count slip for the SHU. 21 MR. 22 MR. 23 +pluck 1? 24 MR. : Right here, ZA. : And that one also says 73 : Yeah, I don't -. 25 MR. : Do you think that they're EFTA00111634 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 at all related? Do you remember that? Would 2 that be something that you - as Internal, when 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you picked up - you would be the one that would probably pick up that count slip, correct, at 10:00 p.m.? MR. : Well, yeah, or like I said, someone else brings it down. Like, "Look, I counted with North." But anybody could have brought it down. You know what I'm saying? MR. : But have you ever seen like a plus + 1 on any MR. : No. MR. : -- of these before? MR. : And truthfully, that plus 1 and that le4es—+ 1 are the same handwriting, so it might have been -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- put on there after the fact. MR. : So you believe it was probably like Control that did it or MR. : Because I've never see extra stuff written on a count slip. MR. : No? MR. : Huh-uh. EFTA00111635 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 MR. : So you don't recall on 2 August 9th though, picking up something that 3 said, "Plus + 1?" 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. And then -. 6 MR. : Right? 7 MS. RICHMAN: There is none. 8 MR. : And then this count slip 9 for midnight, were you involved in that count? 10 MR. : Have I? Yes. 11 MR. : Would have you on August 12 9th, do you know? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : All right. So this one 15 says, "RA count 1." Would that be also R&D? 16 What is RA? 17 MR. : RA -. 18 MR. : Because that's the only 19 one in there that has a plus + 1 and Fernandez 20 was in a dry cell in R&D. 21 MR. : I don't see a plus + 1 on 22 there. 23 MR. : No, it doesn't say plus + 24 1 -- 25 MR. : Oh. EFTA00111636 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 1 MR. : -- it says, "One," but it 2 says, "RA," and I'm wondering if R&D, which was 3 at 10:00 p.m., and RA that was at midnight, are 4 they for the same unit? 5 MR. : I can't rem- what's RA? I'm 6 having like major brain fog right now. 7 MR. : But there is no RA for 8 any of these. 9 MR. : No, yeah, no, that I know. 10 MR. : And then all of a sudden, 11 there's no R&D for these, so the assumption is 12 that, since there's one here and one there, RN, 13 R&D are the same, but are you able to shed some 14 light on that? 15 MR. : Let me look at - you have 16 here, here's the count, let me see something. 17 This is the 12 o'clock, let me look at the 18 10:00. 19 MR. : You don't - these are all 20 messed up, so they're probably not even going 21 to help you. 22 MR. : No, I'm looking at the 23 codes. Truthfully, it's possible, but 24 MR. : Okay. You don't know? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00111637 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : Have you ever even seen 2 RA before though? 3 MR. : I've definitely seen RA 4 before -- 5 MR. : So that one might -- 6 MR. : I just can't -. 7 MR. : -- be an actual different 8 unit? 9 MR. : It's not one of the units, 10 but it could be a code. There's a code for a 11 guy watching suicide watch is HA. If you have 12 people doing maintenance, there's a code for 13 them. You know, so, I'm trying to remember if 14 RA is a code for possibly someone cleaning up 15 someone. I can't remember. 16 MR. : Okay. But it doesn't 17 tell you that that's R&D. 18 MR. : Like -- 19 MR. : Being that we 20 MR. normally I've seen R&D. 21 MR. : -- know Fernandez is in 22 dry cell in R&D and -- 23 MR. : It's very possible. 24 MR. : -- but yeah, but you're 25 not -- EFTA00111638 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : But I'm not -- 2 MR. : -- sure. 3 MR. : -- a hundred percent sure to 4 be able to answer that, you know. 5 MR. : Okay. Is there anything 6 you wanted - I know that they've got to go, so 7 is there anything else you wanted to ask -- 8 MS. RICHMAN: No, no, we're fine. 9 MR. : -- with the counsel? 10 MS. RICHMAN: I can do it right here. 11 MR. : Oh, okay. But you've 12 never seen, "Dlup + 1." You believe that that 13 was more than likely added on the 10:00 p.m. 14 count after the count slips were returned? 15 MR. : Yes, because normally, see 16 how you see all the checkmarks? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Cross offs? So when you get 19 the count slip, R&A, Control #2 does the 20 checkmarks to make sure, "Okay, right unit, 21 right number, right date, everything is 22 signed." If something is written on it, 23 normally you'd be like, "I'm not taking this," 24 because it could become official document. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00111639 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. : You know? The back, 2 sometimes people write on the back, you know, 3 math to try to figure out exactly what their 4 numbers are, but on the front, normally you're 5 not writing nothing on the front because you 6 know it's an official document, you know -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- they could pull it at any 9 time, as you can see. So, I'm surprised to see 10 that there's something written on the front, I 11 don't know. 12 MR. : But you do not recall 13 actually being involved in the midnight count 14 on August 9th going into August 10th? 15 MS. RICHMAN: He left. 16 MR. : He left. 17 MR. : I was (Indiscernible 18 *01:14:07). 19 MS. RICHMAN: He was the 4:00. 20 MR. : All right. So -- 21 MS. RICHMAN: He was the 4:00. 22 MR. : -- do you know who would 23 have collected these count slips at midnight? 24 MR. : Well, besides Internal, 25 midnight sometimes they count whoever they EFTA00111640 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 relieved and the relief brings it down. 2 MR. : All right. So the reason 3 I ask, because you see how ZA, the count slip 4 says 73? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Do you see here where ZA 7 says 72? 8 MR. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Do you know how that 10 could have happened? 11 MR. : I know I wasn't there, so 12 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 13 no. That's where I wanted -. 14 MR. : You know, that's - I'm no- 15 messing with no numbers, but, yeah, I don't 16 know how that - yeah. 17 MR. : You don't know how that - 18 have you ever seen that happen before? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Not where SENTRY says one 22 thing and - now, do people mess up and write 23 the wrong number? Yeah. But, C&A is supposed 24 to say, "Send this back, you know, that's a bad 25 count what you wrote on your slip, that's what EFTA00111641 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 you called in." 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Because, see the X, you do 4 one line when they call it in. So you call me 5 in, you call in, "ZA 72," one line, good count, 6 send paperwork. When I get the paperwork, see 7 how you're checking? "73, negative, send that 8 back, that's not what you called in." 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. "Okay, what did I call in?" 11 That's - then count again. "I'm not going to 12 tell you what you called in. 13 MS. RICHMAN: Do you want to pause? 14 MR. : I think we can be done. 15 But, yeah, we can pause. Let me - I'm just 16 going to pause the recording real quick. Ge- 17 that. This is Special Agent 18 and it is currently 12:31 p.m. We are pausing 19 the recording. 20 MR. : It is currently 12:42 21 p.m. on July 15, 2021 and we are reconvening. 22 And sir, I'll just remind you that it's a 23 voluntary interview and you are under oath. 24 All right, , you had a few follow ups 25 that you wanted to do on that. EFTA00111642 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : All right. 2 MR. : So you mentioned earlier that 3 when the Control officer checks off the count 4 slips -- 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : -- they mark it? 7 MR. : Yeah, so, on the paper here 8 first, right? This is a must. This -. 9 MR. : That would be the E-1 10 document, right? 11 MR. : Yes. What happens is you do 12 one line in the X when they call you and it's 13 right, you make the line, you hang up. When 14 you get the paperwork and check it and it 15 matches what they called in, you do the second 16 line. So this is a must. This, I don't know 17 if there's a rule about it, but I know since 18 I've worked that post, you know, I was always 19 taught that that's how you do it, make sure 20 unit is correct because sometimes people - if 21 you work overtime on one unit, then all of a 22 sudden you go to another, you might forget and 23 put that unit's number on it. So, the units 24 are right, the dates are right time, number, 25 you got two signatures, we're good. EFTA00111643 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : So what you're referring 2 to right now is the count slips 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : -- and as you go through 5 each, basically line item on the count slips, 6 you -- 7 MR. : Just to verify. 8 MR. : -- mark them off -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- just so you can keep 11 track of what it is they did, correct? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : All right. 14 MR. : Now, we're looking at the -. 15 MR. : That everything adds up, you 16 know. 17 MR. : We're looking at the August 18 9, 10:00 p.m. count. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Right? Does - it shows that 21 there's lines across almost ever count slip 22 except for R&D -- 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. -- and ZA. What does that 25 tell you? EFTA00111644 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Truthfully, I would not know why all of them were checked off except those two because even if there was a mistake on it and it had to be re-ran, you still check after it's re-ran, so I don't know why it would be, you know, those would be the only two not checked. MR. : And you mentioned that it looks like the handwriting on both of those -. MR. : The added number on the front, the plus + 1 on it -. MR. : Is the same? MR. : It looks it because it doesn't look like the handwriting on either one of them -- MR. : Right, so for -- MR. MR. of the people that -. the R&D where it says - looks like, "9S plus + 1," and then the ZA where it says, "73 plus + 1." MR. : Yeah. In my opinion, it doesn't look like the people that filled out the count slips handwriting. MR. : Sure. And then who was the one that actually checks this off? Is that EFTA00111645 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 the Internal or is that Control? 2 MR. : No, that's Control #2 which 3 is called C&A, Counts and Assignments. 4 MR. : And they would be the one 5 to, as they're going through it, to actually 6 mark off the count slips? 7 MR. : Yeah, because they handling 8 the E-1 and they're doing the good verbal and 9 the count. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : According to the roster, who 12 would that C&A be for the 10:00 p.m. count? 13 MR. : On the 9th? 14 MR. : On the 9th. 15 MR. : On the 9th, 10:00 p.m., it 16 would be 17 MR. : And who would it have been 18 for the midnight count? 19 MR. : That would be the 10th then, 20 right? 21 MR. : Yeah, 10th, midnight. 22 MR. : 10th, midnight? All right, 23 so the 10th, midnight, it could have been 24 Andrea, but also, sometimes the Lieutenant 25 takes it at midnight. EFTA00111646 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : Okay. And if a Lieutenant 2 does the count, do they - are they supposed to 3 do the same thing? Check it off, each line? 4 MR. : I mean, on the E-1, yes. 5 This, like I said, I don't know if there's a 6 rule for this, it's just the way I was taught 7 and a lot of senior officers do it. So, I 8 don't know, you know, a lot of Lieutenants come 9 from other institutions, they were taught 10 different. So it's not odd if the Lieutenant 11 that took the count didn't do it, but most of 12 the time they would and -. 13 MR. : And as far - you said 14 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- but did finish 17 at 10:00 p.m.? 18 MR. : Yeah, so that's why - yeah, 19 but -. 20 MR. : Or so would that be 21 (Phonetic Sp. *01:19:29)? Which one would 22 actually -- 23 MR. : Oh, yeah, so, yeah, possibly 24 did it because, yeah, you're right, 25 finished at 10:00 so Control takes EFTA00111647 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 over, yeah, so it would be most likely. MR. : So would have done also the midnight or would he also have been relieved early and then the next person would have done it? MR. : No, so midnight would either be his relief, unless he didn't get relieved, which on here it shows someone else took over. So it would be his relief or, like I said, the Ops Lieutenant usually takes the midnight count if they're able to. MR. : Okay. MR. : That's all I got. (Indiscernible *01:20:00). MR. : No, I guess just the main thing would be, you've never seen a plus + one on count slips before? MR. : Handed in, no. MR. : Yeah, but what about -- MR. : Now, if -- MR. : -- after the fact? Does MR. -- if after the fact, I don't see it, so, it's possible once I hand it to Control, you know, I never see the count EFTA00111648 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 slip again. So maybe that's normal for someone 2 in Control that works Control. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : But me picking it up, no, 5 I've never seen it actually picking up with a 6 number on the front like that. 7 MR. : All right, so, would it 8 be your educated guess then, and it is a guess, 9 that the 10:00 p.m. count were these two, the 10 ZA and the R&D, would your guess be that that 11 was done by somebody other than the unit 12 themselves? 13 MR. : I would assume 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- it would be a guess like 16 you said, but -. 17 MR. : Somebody in Control more 18 than likely or who was doing the count? 19 MR. : Whoever was taking the count 20 or whatnot, you know, whoever was in the 21 Control Center, somehow that I would assume 22 that that's where it came from. 23 MR. : And again, this would be 24 an interpretation, but do you have an educated 25 interpretation what this 9S +plua 1 and the 733 EFTA00111649 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ±plua 1 would mean? MR. : No. Because if I had to guess, if you were saying that the 73 was wrong and it was supposed to be 74, you would just fill out a new count slip and put 74. You're not going to put a ises—+ 1 on there so I don't understand why there would be a plus + 1 there. It doesn't make no sense to me. MR. ghost counting? MR. : And did you ever hear of : Yes, I've heard of ghost counting. But even if you ghost count, you would not put plus + 1 on there. The count slip would reflect, you know? MR. : Okay. Now, do you know anything about if - so, for instance, if the 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. numbers are - they match up on the count slips as well as on the E-1, however they're actually wrong, both of them, do the people that in, for instance, the SHU, have access to the number that Control is looking for? MS. RICHMAN: Say that again. MR. : Yeah. MR. : So for education EFTA00111650 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 purposes, this is - the number that is on this 2 which says, "Census column," -- 3 MR. : Yes. That's the active 4 number. 5 MR. : -- or the count actually 6 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : -- is the amount of 9 people that per Control are supposed to be in 10 that unit. So, if the number that is supposed 11 to be in the unit matches up with the count 12 slip that is provided -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. -- but they're both 15 wrong, my question is, let's assume that that 16 is the case. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : My question is, the 19 people in the SHU, do they have access to the 20 number that they're supposed to provide? 21 MR. : So wait, you're saying like 22 23 MR. : So the SHU has to give an 24 account slip and then the people in Control 25 need to say, "Yep, that's the number we've EFTA00111651 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 got." 2 MR. : Yes. First you got to call 3 it in and they got to clear it before you even 4 write your paper, your count slip. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : That's why it's called -- 7 MR. : So I guess there will be 8 9 MR. : -- the (Indiscernible 10 *01:22:56). 11 MR. : -- two follow up question 12 to that then now. So if they're writing down a 13 number that they think Control has, do they 14 have way to know the number that Control has? 15 MS. RICHMAN: Beforehand. 16 MR. : Oh, okay, I get what you're 17 saying. Like access to what Control is looking 18 at. 19 MR. : Correct. What number 20 they're -- 21 MR. : So --- 22 MR. : -- suppose to report. 23 MR. : -- yes and no. The reason 24 why I say that is, not everybody has access to 25 that. But, let's say I work that post three EFTA00111652 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 days a week and two days a week I work 2 somewhere else. I have access to it because 3 I'm there three days a week. 4 MR. : So if you're working in 5 Control, if you go to SHU, you'd actually still 6 have access -- 7 MR. : Exactly. 8 MR. : -- to that. 9 MR. : So you still have access to 10 it. So it's possible that someone had access 11 because they don't just take it immediately, 12 your access, you know, if you're there three 13 days a week, you're going to have it. So, it's 14 possible, yes, but as far as knowing if they 15 did, I don't know. I don't know who has 16 access, who doesn't. Like I had access for a 17 long time, then they took it because I stopped 18 working here for a while, so I don't know who 19 has it and who doesn't. I don't even know who 20 takes it and gives it, to be honest. 21 MR. : And have you ever 22 experience anything where the person calling in 23 the number actually says, "Hey, what number am 24 I supposed to have?" 25 MR. : No. EFTA00111653 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : So that never would 2 happen? 3 MR. : I mean, not that it would 4 never but it's never happened in my interaction 5 of working that post and calling in a count. 6 MS. RICHMAN: Because that would put you 7 on the line because there's something missing. 8 MR. : Exactly. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And also 11 MR. : So would those calls be 12 recorded, what they're calling into Control? 13 MR. : I would assume. It's the 14 government. I'm assuming all the -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : -- calls, you know. 17 MR. : Do you know how long 18 those calls would be monitored? I mean would 19 be retained? 20 MR. : I have no idea. That, you 21 know, that's not something I would know. But, 22 I would assume you could get access to phone 23 calls if you had to. 24 MR. : Okay. So not only from 25 inmates, but also between officers. EFTA00111654 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 MR. : I'd better check on it. 2 MR. : Right. Okay. So do you 3 think the more likely scenario though, if those 4 numbers are in fact wrong on both the count 5 slip as well as with Control, that the people 6 would have had access to the Control number to 7 be able to write in that, the number that they 8 were looking for? 9 MR. : I mean, it's possible 10 because you brought up a ghost count. Ghost 11 count does happen, but, this reflects it. You 12 know what I'm saying? 13 MR. : Uh-huh. 14 MS. RICHMAN: Why don't you explain ghost 15 count to make sure you're both understanding 16 what a -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : What is the 19 MS. RICHMAN: ghost count is. 20 MR. : What is a ghost - what is 21 a ghost count? 22 MR. : So, what a ghost count would 23 be, let's say - I'm trying to think of a 24 scenario where it would - okay, it's count is 25 on. I'm counting, all of a sudden, you're EFTA00111655 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 throwing up crazy, like ridiculously and 2 there's blood in the throw up and everything. 3 So I call for Medical. Medical is like, "Bring 4 him to me, you know, bring him to Medical." I 5 bring him to Medical. We're not going to 6 change the count for your unit, we know where 7 he's at. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : We visually see him in 10 Medical, we know he's in Medical. So, although 11 you may only have 72 people on your unit now 12 because on is in Medical, we may say, "ghost 13 count, we know where he's out, we got a visual, 14 just keep his as 73 on your unit," instead of 15 doing a whole new SENTRY, that he's in Medical 16 and we're going to send him right back. 17 MR. : So for the 4:00 p.m. 18 count, if Fernandez is moved at 3:15 to R&D dry 19 cell, would that be a reason to do a ghost 20 count at 4:00 p.m.? 21 MR. : In my opinion, yes and no. 22 I say yes because, yeah, it's possible. No, 23 because the log is updated. So if you had time 24 to update the log and put him in -. 25 MR. : What if the log is not EFTA00111656 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 updated at that time? What if he's not 2 MR. : That's different. 3 MR. : -- keyed out of the unit 4 until -- 5 MR. : Okay, that's a different 6 scenario 7 MR. : -- much later? 8 MR. : So if the log was updated at 9 that time, you have time to do all the rest of 10 the stuff. If it wasn't, then yeah, it's 11 possible he was ghost counted, because, like I 12 said, as long as you've got a visual on him and 13 you know where he's at and it happened around 14 count time, it's possible. But 3:15 is still 15 pretty early, so. 16 MR. : So if 3:15 Fernandez is 17 moved out of the SHU, obviously, like you said, 18 the outer door has to be -- 19 MR. : Control has to do it. 20 MR. : -- Control has to pop it 21 so they obviously would have to be notified, 22 correct? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : That Fernandez is being 25 moved -- EFTA00111657 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : -- to a dry cell. Who 3 would be responsible for keying Fernandez out 4 of the SHU and placing him in a different unit? 5 MR. : That would be Control #2, 6 C&A. 7 MR. : So Control would be not 8 the SHU staff? 9 MR. : SHU, if they have access, 10 can do it. But as far as SENTRY paperwork, 11 that's the Control Center. 12 MR. : So Control should have 13 been the one that did that? 14 MR. : Yeah, the Counts and 15 Assignment Officer, which is C&A Control #2 in 16 the Control Center, they're the ones that would 17 do the SENTRY paperwork for hat. 18 MR. : And would they know if 19 they say, moving Fernandez to R&D dry cell, 20 would they know automatically, "I need to key 21 him out," or would that be something that SHU 22 would also say, "Can you key in the -." 23 MR. : It depends who's working the 24 SHU and what they have access to. You know, I 25 had senior officers that, like I said, have EFTA00111658 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 access to it and they'll tell Control, "I got 2 it. Don't worry about it, I know you're busy, 3 you're doing everything else, I got it." But 4 if you have someone working the SHU, which is 5 very possible because of all the overtime, who 6 doesn't have access or doesn't know how to do 7 it, they're not doing it, Control has to -. 8 MR. : But would that be a 9 conversation they would have about -- 10 MR. : Yes. I -. 11 MR. : -- who was actually going 12 to key him out? 13 MR. : Exactly. That's the 14 conversation they're having. 15 MR. : And so there's not an 16 automatic control being like, "We'll do it." 17 It's actually a conversation they should have. 18 MR. : Well, regardless, a 19 conversation they're going to have because 20 Control looks on camera, pops the door, they 21 don't know that inmate, what numbers he is, 22 where - you know, so they would have to SHU and 23 say, "Inmate so and so, what's his reg number? 24 What's his ID number so I can do all the 25 paperwork for it?" You know, you can't just EFTA00111659 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 assume by looking at the camera, you know, the 2 cameras is - I don't know about now, but they 3 used to not be that clear where you could tell 4 exactly what inmate, you know. 5 MR. : Would that be done over 6 the radio that this conversation would have or 7 it would done on the phone? 8 MR. : On the phone most likely. 9 MR. : Over the phone? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : You're not going to say all 13 that information over the radio. You may say, 14 "SHU, when you get a chance, call me at C&A." 15 MR. : But would you say on the 16 radio, "Moving this guy to dry cell," or would 17 you say, "Control we need -" - you know, when 18 they're looking to actually - the SHU is 19 looking to actually move this guy down to dry - 20 first of all, SHU would do it, right? Not 21 Internal? 22 MR. : Well, it all depends what's 23 going on but Internal could help with the move. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : But the Lieutenant would be EFTA00111660 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 advised first. We can't just put someone on 2 dry cell. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : So what would happen is a 5 situation had to happen. For you to go on 6 you know what dry cell is or no? 7 MS. RICHMAN: Explain it -- 8 MR. : Explain it, go ahead. 9 MS. RICHMAN: to them because I think 10 that there might be a disconnect -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MS. RICHMAN: -- in terms of -- 13 MR. : Dry cell -. 14 MS. RICHMAN: -- what they understand. 15 MR. : Dry cell is an inmate 16 possibly swallowed drugs or something, we don't 17 know what it is. So he swallowed it, so we put 18 him on dry cell, which means he has to use the 19 bathroom three times and a supervisor has to go 20 through it to see if there's drugs in there 21 before he can get cleared coming off dry cell. 22 And he has to be visually watched. So what 23 happens is, if someone goes on dry cell, the 24 Lieutenant is advised immediately because 25 either you're in a tussle with the inmate where EFTA00111661 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 he tried to put the drugs in his mouth or 2 you're seeing him through a cell and you're 3 like, "LT, I got one, he just swallowed drugs," 4 or, "I need you to respond." Then the 5 Lieutenant makes the decision to put him on dry 6 cell. I'm not just putting someone randomly on 7 dry cell. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, the Control may know 10 over the radio or may not because if all I say 11 is, "I need a Lieutenant in Special Housing and 12 a Lieutenant come up and I'm verbal and 13 everything to him and I'm not saying it over 14 the radio and the Lieutenant is like, "All 15 right, put him on dry cell, come on," you know, 16 "Strip him out and everything." Control don't 17 know what's going on, they just know I asked 18 for a Lieutenant. You know what I'm saying? 19 MR. : So my questions is 20 though, when they're actually making the move 21 down to dry cell, is that on the radio, 22 "Control, can you pop the door? We're moving 23 him to dry cell," or is that always a phone 24 call? 25 MR. : Like I said, obviously EFTA00111662 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 Control has to know to pop the door, but you 2 might not be telling them everything over the 3 radio. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : You might just say - there's 6 a bell on the outside of the door, so the 7 Lieutenant rings the bell, "Control, I need the 8 27 door popped for Lieutenant ." 9 They're going to pop it because they look on 10 camera, the Lieutenant is there. Now once he's 11 inside, the door is locked, "Control, we need 12 27 popped, exiting with one." Now we're 13 exiting. Now from there, if I'm in the Control 14 Center, I'm calling SHU, like, "Yo, is that 15 inmate coming back? What's going on?" So and 16 so. But everybody works different. 17 MR. : All right, so, I guess 18 this will be my last questions. 19 MR. : There's no protocol exactly 20 on how to communicate that movement because you 21 don't know if he's coming back, you don't know. 22 I'm assuming if an inmate went to R&D for dry 23 cell, they would put him on what's called the 24 X-ray machine because there's a machine in R&D 25 that reads the body, like the TSA machines. EFTA00111663 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 Because you could do dry cell in Special 2 Housing, you don't have to move them for that. 3 If you have an empty cell, you shut the water 4 off, you put them in dry cell in Special 5 Housing with the Lieutenant. So the fact that 6 they went to R&D, it was probably to do a body 7 scan to see if something was in his stomach or 8 that area. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And if you're doing that, 11 it's possible he's going back so you're not 12 going to tell Control right away because if I 13 don't see nothing on the scan, the Lieutenant 14 may say, "I'm not putting him," you know, and 15 that's it. 16 MR. : That was going to be my 17 question, although I thought you answered it by 18 saying there's no standard protocol, but do you 19 have like a best guess educated, you know, 20 guess on Lieutenant's log says, "Fernandez is 21 moved at 3:15 down to R&D dry cell," -- 22 MR. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- however he's never 24 keyed out of SHU. Best guess, of when it, you 25 know, what happened basically. EFTA00111664 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 MR. : Truthfully, no. There's no 2 way, you know, there's a million scenarios that 3 could have went down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : You would have to literally 6 talk to the Lieutenant or the Control Center to 7 figure out exactly what, you know. 8 MR. : Okay. Sounds good. 9 MR. : All right. 10 MR. : Anything else you have? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Is there anything else 13 you wanted to add regarding Epstein or I guess 14 I should just ask you the general question. Do 15 you know if anyone was attempting to harm 16 Epstein? 17 MR. : No -- 18 MR. : Do you -. 19 MR. not that I know of. 20 MR. : Do you believe that 21 Epstein took his own life? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. Anything else you 24 - oh, I know that you all said for the record, 25 you wanted to talk about something else. We'll EFTA00111665 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 schedule that for a later date. 2 MR. : Yes, I would like that. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. All right 4 and anything before we shut off this recorder? 5 MS. RICHMAN: No. 6 MR. : Okay. Thank you very 7 much for your time and your and your 8 cooperation. It is currently 1:00 p.m. on July 9 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 10 and I'm turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00111666 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 EFTA00111667 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00111668