EFTA00111830.pdf

1 2 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE 3 1 MR. All right. The recorder 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, lune 15, 2021 and 3 the time is 10:08 a.m. My name is 4 , and I am a Senior Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 7 And these are my credentials. 8 9 MR. Okay. MR. : This interview with 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 11 - is it Jermaine? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. , is being 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jeri. 21 Also resent is DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 and Mr. . This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 name? To start, a ain, I am DO] OIG Senior if, Agent, • MR. This is DOJ Special Agent : This is BOP employee, MR. : All right. Thank you, everyone. And this is an official DO] investigation surrounding the circumstances of Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? MR. ..es. MR. : Great. We're just going to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. I'm going to read it for the record. It says, United States Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to provide information as part of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00111830 6 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure and security failure. This 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 11 It says, "I understand the Warnings and 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 20 copy of this. 21 MR. : This isn't what I wanted. 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 24 of the Inspector General Specialliiiii. And I 25 am going to print my name. Mr. , do you 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mind just printing your name where it says Employee's Name? Sorry. : All right. • Right below it. Thank you, sir. And , can you sign that as the MR. MR. MR. Special Agent witness? MR. : Yes. This is Special Agent iiiiiiiiiined as a witness. MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG form? MR. ..es. MR. : Great. Before starting, I would like you place you under oath. Can you just raise your right hand? Mr. , do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth durino this interview? MR. MR. just show me to make sure MR. MR. record, I am : I do. Thank you, sir. Can you your credentials, for the record, that -- : Here you go, sir. -- all right. For the looking at the U.S. Department of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials of Mr. . It says that he is the Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. Thank you, sir. MR. ..kay. MR. : All right. And what is your current home address? MR. MR. your current MR. MR. level of education? MR. : I have three years of college. MR. And where did you go to college? MR. : I went to - I actually have my Associates Degree at Northwestern State UniversitiiIIIIIIII MR. : And where is that located? MR. : That's going to be in Thank you. And what is cell phone number? : It is And what is your highest 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 Natchitoches, Louisiana. MR. : Great. And what was that Associate's decree in? It was in Social Work. Okay. Great. And then, MR. MR. what year? MR. I believe it was 2012 or '13. MR. Great. Thanks. Did you have any employment prior to the BOP? MR. : Yes. I had worked almost two years for the Colorado Department of Corrections. MR. Okay. MR. rAs a Correctional Officer. : And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten years - well, nine years, 11 months in the United States Arm . MR. : Awesome. Thanks for your service. MR. InMn-hmm. MR. : When did you work as a Correctional Officer for two years? MR. : In Colorado? MR. Yes. MR. : I believe the dates were from EFTA00111831 9 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 2005. MR. Okay. Great. And then, you said you were in the - did you say the Army? MR. Mies. MR. : And what was your rank in the Army? MR. MR. MR. MR. I was a Sergeant. • Honorable discharge? Yes. • When you left, what was your primiiiiiisponsibility? MR. : Basically, at that time, I was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical surveyor. MR. Where did MR. MR. MR. Okay. And what was that? ou say? : Sir? . The topographical? . It's a topographical surveyor MR. : Oh, a surveyor. MR. E.- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) surveyor. Right. 1 MR. Okay. Perfect. And 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-S? 3 MR. E-5. 4 MR. E-5. All right. When 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 Prisons? 7 8 9 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 MR. : I believe it was March of 13 2006. 14 MR. Okay. We don't have to 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 institution. Just, like -. 19 MR. : Right. I started as a five, 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - I 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline MR. : 09/27/2005. No. I'm sorry. 11/27/2005. MR. Great. And when did you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. MR. : All right. Great. And is it correct that you used to work at the MCC in New York City? MR. : That is correct. MR. : All right. And what were your positions when you were at the MCC? MR. : 'ACC, I was the Captain. MR. : Okay. And from what dates weriiiiiithe Captain? MR. : I was the Captain from September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all the way until June 25 of 2020. MR. Okay. Great. And then, was that our first assignment as a Captain? MR. : No. That was my second. MR. What was your first assignment as a Captain? MR. : My first assignment as a Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC Brooklyn. MR. : Okay. And then you got promoted, and went to MCC? MR. : Yes. Yes. MR. And what does the MCC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 stand for? MR. : The Metropolitan Correctional Center. MR. Perfect. And located at 150 Park Row, New York, New York? MR. : That is correct. MR. Thank you, sir. As a Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor when you were at the MCC? MR. : It would be, at that point, at that time we was transitioning. MR. Okay. MR. : So, I would, normally, I would answer to two people, which would be the AW of Custody, which, at that time, was MR. Okay. MR. : However, we was transitioning when that incident happened. It was was the AW over Custody at that time. MR. : All right. So, when you are talking about that time, are you talking about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? MR. : That is correct. MR. Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00111832 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 of was still the AW in charge of Custody at that time? MR. MR. MR. : No. . She was not? Okay. : No. Basically, what it was - again - with the areas of responsibility had changed, ri p for -- MR. MR. that week, Ms. Okay. -- to this incident. So, was going to be - even though hers responsibilities had changed as the AW over Custody, and Warden N'DiayeN'Dia had appointed - or instructed - that Ms. IIIII would then take over the responsibilities. But however, she was supposed to o on annual leave. MR. Okay. MR. : So, at that time, Ms. was actually there, as far as, she was still in that capacity when the incident ha ened. MR. : Okay. MR. : However, again, the previous question that you asked, normally, as my responsibilities, I would notify the AW over 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 Custody, and also, I would have conversations Okay. : So, it would just depends on what the situation may be. So, if there was instances where I would run things through the chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was times that I would take direction directly from the Warden. MR. : Okay. As far as, though, in this instance, if, you know, being that August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the first person ou contacted when ou were -- MR. : Was MR. : -- correct. And that was because the other AW was out. Is that what you were sayik. MR. : My belief is that she was on annual leave which was stated -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- that we had closed out on that Friday, that she would be starting annual leave. MR. : Okay. But the other AW was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? 15 1 MR. ..es. 2 MR. : Oka . Which ou 'ust 3 said was - you went with 4 because she was on? 5 6 MR. That's . right. MR. : Okay. Have you since 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 8 correct? 9 MR. : Well, what I realized is 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 14 the AW 15 MR. : All right. How do you 16 spell her last name? 17 MR. : Ms. M? 18 MR. . Yes. 19 MR. : A-D-G-E. 20 MR. Perfect. Thank you. All 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DO] 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 24 of 2019? 25 MR. : That is correct. 16 1 MR. Great. I'm just going to 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 to their conversations with you. 4 MR. Ed -hmm. 5 MR. : We want to just go over 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 clarification on. 9 MR. ..bsolutely. 10 MR. : So, I'm just going to 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 MR. ..orrect. 14 MR. : All right. So, " 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 MR. Correct. 18 MR. : "In 2014, he was 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 sorry. 23 MR. : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 in between there. 25 MR. Yeah, yeah. EFTA00111833 17 18 1 MR. Yeah. M Right. 2 MR. : So, it says, "In 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 6 his current position, where he oversees 7 security for the entire building." 8 MR. : Well, yeah. There was a 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 12 And that's when I went to Pollock. FCC 13 Pollock. 14 MR. Okay. 15 MR. rnd then, from FCC Pollock, : 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 17 '14, I left Pollock to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 19 MCC. 20 MR. : Okay. So, they have - 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Okay. It says, " 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 MR. ..orrect. 6 MR. : Okay. "And it has 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 Lieutenants. 17 MR. : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. " also sits on 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 the BOP." 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 MR. : Correct. MR. . "Among others, is responsible for the Special Housing Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant IIII." Is that correct? MR. Correct. MR. : "As an Administrative Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying whoever was Acting in the Administrative Lieutenant -- MR. MR. : Capacity? • -- position? MR. : No, I wasn't. Basically, Administrative duties. The Administrative duties falls under the appointed SHU Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to be done daily, within the unit. Not just the supervision of the line staff that work the unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is done. MR. Okay. 20 1 MR. : All security protocols are 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 accountabiiiiiiiiiihe inmates in the unit. 8 MR. : So, I guess what I was 9 etting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 IIII. Was there a specific person that was the 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 MR. : Yes. The Administrative 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 MR. : And do you happen to know 15 how to spell that last name? 16 MR. It's . 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 was that? 20 MR. : Which was the Lieutenant 21 (Phonetic Siiiiii:17:10). 22 MR. And , common 23 spelling? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00111834 21 1 Activities Lieutenants". 2 MR. : Which are on the day of the 3 incident? 4 MR. Yeah. And would you like 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 6 August 10th? 7 MR. Hmm-mm. 8 MR. No? Okay. Do you know 9 who it was? 10 MR. : So, I believe the morning 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - I 13 just said her name. 14 MR. I can show you this. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. So, I'm showing you a 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. -- 2019. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. And you can keep them in 24 front of ou for the -- 25 MR. : Okay. 22 1 MR. -- for the interview, 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 people - jiff" can reference the two. 4 MR. : Right. All right. So it 5 iir shere, it would have been la 6 ivould have been the 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 2019. 9 MR. 10 MR. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 . Perfect. 13 from? 14 MR. : At that time, the shift they 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 MR. : Okay. So, 10:00 p.m. on 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 MR. That is correct. 20 MR. : And then, I'm assuming 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 a.m. 24 Correct? 25 MR. : That is - yeah - that was the And is it ME? And what times did she work 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which was IIII. Lieutenant IIII. He informed me - or I guess he became aware of the incident, I believe, at 6:30 that morning. MR. : Okay. And so, I already asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The Operations Lieutenant and the Activities Lieutenant are responsible for day to day operations and maintaining order for three shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility in the event of an emergency incident, such as fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there a - during these instances - was there an Emergency Pre aredness Lieutenant? MR. : Yes. MR. Who was that? MR. : I believe it was Lieutenant MR. MR. MR. . Lieutenant IIII? Okay. Mm-hmm. Was Lieutenant El off that day, thou MR. : Lieutenant IIII was, I believe, at that time, his schedule, the SHU 24 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 MR. . Okay. 3 MR. : They worked Monday through 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 MR. Okay. 6 MR. ro, Lieutenant was on : 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 drill -- 10 MR. • Okay. 11 MR. -- that he would attend. 12 MR. : Do you know if he was on 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 But was on the 9th? 16 MR. Mat me see here. 17 MR. : And you can just say, was 18 he on the schedule? 19 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 here, I'm looking at the roster for Friday, 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 Friday. 24 MR. : All right. So, that 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00111835 25 26 1 Correct? 2 MR. : That is correct. He was not 3 there, no. 4 MR. : Great. And would his 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 7 he's gones_gf_is -? 8 MR. 'I'll': Normally, due to our staffing 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 20 assigned. 21 MR. : And that post, like you 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, Saturday. Great. 25 MR. : No, it's not. 1 MR. : All right. " 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 criteria, a ropriate housing varies." 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : All right. " 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 18 MR. Correct. M MR. : "Dunn the first 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 accommodated with water, visits to the 27 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 4 MR. : Yes. So, most days, from the 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 7 until it closed. 8 MR. : All right. And that's 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 13 Monday -- 14 MR. No. That's 15 -- MR. : -- that's seven days a 16 week? 17 MR. that's seven days a week. 18 MR. : All right. So, was it 19 almost ever day? 20 MR. : Every day. 21 MR. : Okay. And was his food 22 brought to him there, then? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. Okay. How would he 25 obtain food? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 MR. : Now, as far as food, I know - and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. MR. : Okay. MR. : They're provided water. They're provided to go to the bathroom. The inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. However, I believe that he was offered meals from the vendin machine. I'm not sure. MR. : Okay. MR. : I can't remember as far as - because I didn't remember there was an issue with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, or to address it. I just can't remember -- MR. Sure. MR. -- what was done. MR. Would the Attorneys be allowed to bring him in food? MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : No. No, no, no, no, no. No? No. Okay. : No. No. No. No. Outside food would not have been allowed. MR. Okay. EFTA00111836 29 1 MR. : So, I can't tell you if he 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 7 I can't remember. 8 MR. : Sure. All right. That's 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 11 that you made with Epstein? 12 MR. : The third one. So, that 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 16 MR. 8:00 p.m. on August 9? 17 MR. : 8:00 p.m. 18 MR. Okay. 19 MR. : Correct. So, I was actually 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Unit Manager. MR. MR. Mr. MR. 30 . Okay. And who was that? : Which that was, I believe, Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) • Right. MR. : At which time, I, you know, I said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed that when the inmate - we would reasonably attempt to always facilitate a phone call for the inmate, especially while him being housed in the Special Housin Unit. So, I said to the Unit Manager, Mr. , I said, Mr. are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, well, are you going to be able to monitor the call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, I got no problem with that. I said, well, I don't have a problem. Just make sure that you follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, it has to be monitored by staff, and the number, and who they're talking to has to be placed in a log. 31 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. ro, I said, make sure that 3 takes place. I'm good with it. So, that's 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 5 institution. 6 MR. : All riiiiiiiSo, this 7 conversation happened with , in front of 8 Mr. Epstein? 9 MR. ..es, it did. 10 MR. : Okay. And that's the 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 13 MR. ..es. 14 MR. : Was there a certain line 15 that they should have used? 16 MR. : Yes. It's a secure line. 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 19 that's just for inside of the institution 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 22 MR. Would that be called a 23 legal line? 24 MR. : Yeah. It would be just an 25 out. This would be a out, out. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 MR. : Okay. MR. : Out line. MR. : Sure. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And they're not recorded MR. : Right. MR. • -- and that's why you said make sure that it's -- MR. : Yes. MR. • -- and did you -- MR. : Correct. MR. : -- did you tell him, at all, to document what was -? MR. : Yes. I told him to ensure that he is present, that - the protocol is, because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make sure that you're present at the phone call. I said, make sure that it's logged. And when you dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, stay on the line and said, he says, well, I want to call my Attorney. Who was your Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. When they answer the phone, I said, this is MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00111837 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what is your can log it. MR. : Okay. MR. rnd the time that it's logged. And then, you give the phone to the inmate, and then you sit there while they're on the phone. MR. And do you know if that was done? MR. Again, I don't know. MR. : You don't know? MR. : I just ensured. That's it. If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, I said, are you going to SHU? And are you going to be able to monitor phone calls? MR. But you don't know if -- He didn't say yes. -- he wrote up anything? I don't know what he did. Okay. I just ensured that I told MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. him. MR. IIIIII::: Sure. MR. What needed to be done. MR. : And what would typically 1 2 3 4 5 6 it. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. MR. : That phone call? MR. : Sure. MR. Or that log? MR. : Like, after he documented MR. : It would be maintained, just in a log. MR. Okay. MR. : It wouldn't be brought for anyone's review. You know? It would just be, hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. I could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And then, I can tell you, and look, when he was given a call. MR. : So, it goes into a specific E stein file? MR. : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It goes into a book for monitored calls, for all the inmates, and legal calls. MR. : For all inmates. So, not just Epstein. It would be all -- MR. : That is correct. MR. . -- inmates? Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 MR. : It would be a green logbook. You know, and it would have the name of the inmate, and who they called, the number, the time. I don't know if the duration is on there. But it will the person who also monitored the call. So, you know, all that information. But it wasn't something, like, a form that was filled out, and then it was placed in the inmate's file. MR. : Sure. MR. Or central file. MR. : Sure. MR. No. It wasn't like that. MR. : And do you know if that log in the book was filled out? MR. M. don't know. MR. : You don't know. Okay. When you met with Epstein on that night, how was his demeanor? MR. : It was fine. He was cheerful. MR. MR. He was cheerful. : You know, he didn't look disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I said, did you have a good visit? And he said, yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all right, man. MR. : Okay. MR. You know? MR. : No cause for concern? MR. : No, because every time we had that interaction, it was always pleasant. It was neverliiiiiiiii MR. : Okay. It says, " was made aware of the possibility that Epstein would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's arrival. was not present when inmate Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was fit for general population, and was ultimately placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places inmates under three categories of close supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological observation. And three: suicide watch." MR. MR. MR. : Mm-hmm. Is that all correct? : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00111838 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 MR. Okay. So, who made the decision to place him in the Special Housing Unit, specifically, and why? MR. : Okay. So, basically, the rationale for placement of the inmate in the Special Housing Unit would have been a decision ultimately made by the Warden. They would have took the criteria of the inmate. They would have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? You know, what would be the likelihood of him being endangered if he would be placed in general population? His culpability. Can he cope while being inside of a general housing unit? So, the determinations was made between Medical, Health Services - oh, I'm sorry - Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. And who was the Warden at MR. that time? MR. : It was Mr. MR. And do you know how to spell that last name? MR. : It would bell- MR. • Apostrophe. MR. -- apostrophe, MR. Thank you, sir. Are 38 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 MCC? 3 MR. : There is only one secured 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 MR. 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 MR. • -- Ten South. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. : And Ten South is for, I 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 MR. Okay. And what is SAMS 20 stand for? 21 MR. : I believe - I can't remember. 22 MR. Okay. But is it, like, 23 S-A-M-S? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. Like, an acronym, Okay. Not -- But however, we do have -- -- Ten South (Phonetic 39 1 though? 2 MR. : It is an acronym. 3 MR. : Okay. And that is not 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 5 Attorney General -- 6 8 MR. Y W eah. 7 MR. : -- is that -? Okay. MR. : That's going to be - yeah. 9 That's - 10 MR. 1111111111: All right. Was there any 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 12 units? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Could he have been placed 15 in one of those units? 16 MR. : I'm sure he could have. 17 MR. : But I mean, by executive 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 19 the -? 20 MR. : I believe they would have had 21 to make a s ecial concessions for the inmate. 22 MR. . Okay. 23 MR. : They would have to, you know, 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MCC. MR. where I meant by, is, so the executive staff wasn't able to -- MR. MR. MR. 40 Okay. And then, that's • I don't believe so. • -- independently -? No. We were not. MR. Okay. Were there many inmates housed within Ten South at that time? MR. : No. I believe, at that time, we may have had a total of four to five. Of course, you know, we had the notorious Joaquin Guzman up there. We also had the Apple Puff (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't remember his name. But basically, these are inmates that have made crimes against the United States, which it was deemed that those inmates would be in that Special Management Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the general MR. : Was this, like, a terroristiiiiilof people? MR. : I would say some of them were terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00111839 41 1 Joaquin Guzman that was up there, the terrorist 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 3 general po ulation unit. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : He would go - normally, guys 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 7 before, yijigigilliike Florence. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. re would be at the ADX 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 14 threats against the United States, or there was 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 16 found in cooperation with outside Agencies that 17 was trying to determent of (Indiscernible 18 *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United 19 States. These kind of guys was put in that 20 unit. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. ruys you wouldn't want in the 23 24 25 1 2 that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate 3 and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid 4 having one." What type of behavior did he -? 5 MR. : I believe that Epstein and - 6 when he first came in - he was doing self- 7 manipulative behavior. You know, he was 8 showing passive resistant activity, as far as, 9 you know, when they're taking meals, or 10 wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when 11 they're giving him direction. You know, he 12 would sit in his cell, and he wouldn't talk. 13 You know, I believe he wasn't taking meals at 14 one point. He was refusing to take showers. 15 Things of those that nature. 16 MR. : And the sentence 17 continues, including requesting to see a 18 Psychologist. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. Is that part of it? 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. Okay. Did he say why he 23 wanted to see a Psychologist? 24 MR. : I don't know. 25 MR. No? general po ulation because -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- of their recruitment 43 MR. Okay. ' advised 42 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 there. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 MR. : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And video monitored at 13 all times? 14 MR. Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. So, it's like your 16 maximum security type? 17 MR. : That would be the highest 18 security that an inmate at MCC would be placed 19 in. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Yeah. Could be placed in. 22 Yeah. 23 MR. : But the executive team 24 never discussed that? 25 MR. : No. 44 1 MR. : Remember that, no. 2 MR. : Sure. "At Epstein's 3 request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist." 4 Do you know who he made that request to? Would 5 it have been SHU staff? 6 MR. : He probably would have made 7 those requests to any of the staff that may 8 have been monitoring him at that time. Because 9 if he was placed on psychological observation 10 at that time, psychological observation, you 11 would have had to have a staff person that sat 12 there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate 13 couldn't have monitored him. 14 MR. Okay. And that, is that, 15 like, 24/7? 16 MR. : That would have been 24 hours 17 of that. a week. 18 MR. : So, a staff member is 19 just -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. -- would just sit there 22 and watch 23 MR. Correct. 24 MR. Communicate with him, or 25 no? EFTA00111840 45 1 MR. : Yeah, of course. 2 MR. . Okay. 3 MR. : I mean, and that's, you know, 4 encouraged. I mean, you know, and not have - 5 you want it to - even though the inmate is 6 placed in that situation, again, we're talking 7 about humanit here. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : You know, you want to gage 10 this guy's mental acuity. Meaning that, the 11 inmate, you want to know how he's feeling, how 12 he's doin . 13 MR. . Sure. 14 MR. : Is he improving? Or is he 15 declining? Because if he's declining, and you 16 can actually see it, you want to contact 17 somebody. You know, if this guy is in there 18 being very, you know, belligerent, he's being 19 passive aggressive, or active resistant, or 20 displaying signs of violence. You want to make 21 sure you notify someone. You're not just going 22 to sit there and allow this guy to do self-harm 23 to himself and/or a staff when they come to the 24 door, to provide his services. You know? Such 25 as taking him to shower; providing his meals; 46 1 providing his medication or whatever it is. 2 So, you just don't want to just sit there and 3 allow this inmate just, you know, if he's going 4 to be detrimentally could be harm to staff, or 5 himself, you want to ensure that you notify 6 someone. 7 MR. : Okay. "So, following 8 this assessment, Epstein was initially placed 9 on suicide watch. He was later interviewed 10 again, and downgraded to psychological 11 observation." 12 MR. Min-hmm. 13 MR. : Now, just for the suicide 14 watch and psychological observation, where are 15 they located? 16 MR. : Those would be conducted 17 downstairs, on the second floor, in the Health 18 Services area. 19 MR. And that's outside of the 20 SHU. Correct? 21 MR. That is correct. 22 MR. . And that was prior to any 23 attempt on his life or anything like that? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. Okay. Was that - ah, 47 1 that's okay. "After some time, he was returned 2 to the SHU. began hearing talk that 3 Epstein was trying to get back on suicide 4 watch." 5 MR. Min-hmm. 6 MR. : "Information like this is 7 usually generated from rounds, kites -", and 8 kites are notes, correct? 9 MR. Correct. . 10 MR. : And notes from inmates, 11 specificaiiiiiorrect? 12 MR. : It could be - yes - that 13 would be inmate correspondence. 14 MR. : Yeah. "And monitoring of 15 phone calls and letters." 16 MR. Correct. M l 17 MR. : So, the hearing of talk, 18 that's all based upon inmate talk? 19 MR. : That would have been - all 20 that staff. 21 MR. Okay. Staff, as well? 22 MR. : You know, staffing sitting 23 there, and, you know, especially when he's on 24 suicide watch. You know, staff are taking 25 notes. So, it's every 1S minutes, you know, 48 1 staff is - oh, I'm sorry - every 30 minutes, I 2 believe, I can't remember. It's been a while. 3 But, you know, a staff member - it's every 30 4 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the 5 inmate is doin inside of his cell. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : You know? So, you know, what 8 is he doing? The inmate is facing to the right. 9 The inmate is facing away from staff. The 10 inmate is, you know, doing what, or he makes 11 statements, those statements will be written in 12 the log. 13 MR. : Okay. It says, "On or 14 about July 23, 2019, Epstein was found 15 unresponsive, on the floor of his cell, with a 16 homemade piece of fabric on his chest." When 17 you say a "homemade piece of fabric," can you 18 explain that a little bit? 19 MR. : Okay. Basically, a homemade 20 piece of fabric. It could be anything. 21 Because it's out of the Special Housing, that's 22 what we'riiiiiiiiilabout. Right? 23 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I'm 24 talking about specifically in this instance. 25 Do you know what is meant by "found on the EFTA00111841 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 floor, with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest"? MR. : It could have been fragments from a t-shirt. It could have been fragments from sheets. It could have been fragment -- MR. : So, like, pieces of cloth MR. MR. together. MR. : It was tied together, or -- MR. : Sure. MR. -- you know, (Indiscernible *00:41:14), to make some type of homemade fashioned -- MR. Did you see it at all, though, yourself? MR. : I can't remember. MR. : Okay. Sure. "Epstein's cell mate had flagged the attention of a staff member, who handcuffed the cell mate, and removed Epstein, to bring him to the Medical Unit." Do you recall, at that time, who his cell mate was? MR. : Tartaglione. cloth -- -- that they could tie 50 1 MR. Okay. Great. And did 2 you - aiiiiiirt. We talk about him in a little 3 bit. " heard from his staff that Epstein 4 may have been faking unconsciousness." Do you 5 know who told that? 6 MR. : Well, basically, in 7 memorandum, I remember when it was reported to 8 me, and I made my report, I believe it was in 9 the report of incident by Lieutenant 10 MR. Oka 11 MR. And I 12 believe that she had put out an e-mail, which 13 concluded that the inmate was showing 14 manipulative behavior through his statements, 15 and what was observed by Medical staff. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. ro, basically, they were : 18 saying that the incident didn't occur as the 19 inmate ma have to make it look or occur. 20 MR. : Okay. And we're going to 21 get into in a second. 22 MR. M.o. 23 MR. : "Because he was not 24 observed opening his eyes and making other 25 suspicious movements not consistent with an 51 1 unconscious state." Or sorry. "Because he was 2 observed opening his eyes and making other 3 suspicious movements not consistent with an 4 unconscious state. Epstein was medically 5 assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed 6 that his cell mate, Nicholas Tartaglione -", T- 7 A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-N-E -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. • -- tried to take his 10 life." Was that investigated? 11 MR. : I believe - no, I mean -- 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. -- I can't remember, but I 14 believe a report of incident may have been 15 done. 16 MR. • Okay. 17 MR. : And primarily, when a report 18 of incident is generated - so, any time that an 19 incident happens in the institution, I'm going 20 to walk you through this. The Lieutenant 21 that's on shift is supposed to do the initial 22 fact finding. The gathering of evidence. 23 Okay? 24 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 MR. rnd all of these things. And : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 then, they write a brief synopsis, and then, it's put in a packet, and then, ultimately, SIS Department will investigate it, especially if we're having an assault, which would have been a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of another. So, pictures would have been taken. Clinical assessments of both inmates would have been taken. Witness statements would have been taken. All of these things would have been done, and it oes into an investiiiiiiiiiacket. MR. Sure. So, - would have -? : Would have been -- Created it and provided - Lieutenant MR. MR. it to SIS? MR. : -- and would have created it, and for it to move on. MR. : And do you know if there was any credibility found to the claim that Epstein made, that this other - his cellmate - had tried to take his life? MR. : I don't believe there was any credibilit that was ever concluded -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- that that incident EFTA00111842 53 1 happened. 2 MR. And do you know anything 3 about when he was initially found, if the 4 homemade rope or whatever it was, was found 5 around his neck, or it says in this, "On his 6 chest," anything with that, with, you know, do 7 you know what I mean? Like, if someone was 8 trying to hang themself, if it came on their 9 chest, do you know anything about how that may 10 have happened? 11 MR. : I mean, forensically, I 12 wouldn't know. I'm not a -- 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : -- an investigator on that 15 level. So, I can't really tell you the 16 position of any type of homemade fashioned item 17 that would be used to facilitate a suicide 18 attempt, or -- 19 MR. 20 MR. 21 That's not m 22 MR. 23 MR. 24 what it was, 25 MR. • • Sure. -- an assault attempt. level. Sure. : Again, I'm trying to remember or what was used, but again -- Mm-hmm. 54 1 MR. : I don't know exactly. So, 2 I can't really determine or give you that type 3 of, you know I don't have expertise -- 4 MR. Sure. 5 MR. -- in that area. So -. 6 MR. But the information that 7 was provided to you suggested that he tried to 8 take his own life, not that the cell mate tried 9 to take is life? 10 MR. : Correct. That it was 11 inconclusive that the inmate had - inmate 12 Tartaglione - had tried to kill this guy. Or 13 tried to do any self-harm to this guy. So, you 14 have to - so, like, you have to take an 15 advantage because it's one inmates' word 16 against another. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : So, when the investigation 19 comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would 20 have been interviewed; inmate Tartaglione would 21 have been interviewed, at which time, you would 22 have took those statements, you would have 23 waived, and then you would have took into 24 consideration any witness statements, or 25 anything that was observed during the clinical 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 assessment. So, that's why Health Services helps us out, because the inmates don't want understand that everything they're doing, or anything they're saying, is being entered on that clinical assessment. MR. Sure. MR. ro, that's where they were : saying that he wasn't - his actions may not have been what they should have been for a person that was quasi supposed to had been assaulted. MR. MR. • Sure. : Or if he was supposed to have been unconscious, you was displaying this type of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn't there. So, I don't know what occurred. I'm just going by what was - the information that was relayed back to me. MR. Absolutely. So, as far as Tartaglione -- MR. MR. MR. : Correct. : -- what was he in for? : I believe that Tartaglione was responsible for - he was a former Police Officer, I believe - and I believe he had 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 killed four people, and then he buried them, buried the victims somewhere up near Otisville Prison. I think that's what it was. Back in the day. MR. MR. MR. • Okay. : Yeah. Something like that. • So, he was actually in for murder though? MR. : Yeah. It was murder. He was in for murder and whatever other stuff he was doing. MR. MR. : Doing in his capacity as a Police Officer. MR. And who selected him and why? To be E stein's -- MR. : Who selected him? MR. -- who selected him to be Epstein's roommate, and why? MR. : I don't remember who vetted Tartaglione. But what I will tell you is that, even though Tartaglione had a murder on his jacket, Tartaglione also was an inmate that had issues being in general population. You understand what I'm saying? • Okay. EFTA00111843 57 1 MR. Mm-hmm. Former Police 2 Officer? 3 MR. : Former Police Officer. He 4 had issues - because I've dealt with 5 Tartaglione at Brooklyn - so, he was up on one 6 of the Units in Brooklyn, and he had issues 7 with those inmates in those blocks, where 8 they're made for people who are sex offenders. 9 For inmates that have issues with - when they 10 go to population - general, they can't cope. 11 Formal law enforcement. These type of guys are 12 in that unit. So, you don't really have that 13 much issues in those type of units because 14 these guys are going to do their time, or await 15 their sentencing, and then move on. So, you 16 don't really have a lot of violence. But this 17 guy was alwa s, always in the mix of something. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : But we couldn't put him on 20 the general population unit, and you just can't 21 throw him in SHU. You know what I'm saying? 22 Just because. You just can't. So, in 23 Brooklyn, we had the ability to put him in - I 24 think it was in K82. I can't remember. When 25 he goes to MCC, you know, they don't have those 58 1 type of units. You know? So, he would have to 2 go in general population, or he would go to 3 SHU. So, if the inmate fails the program and 4 said I'm not going to population, you can't 5 force me. So, when you do his assessment, his 6 Unit Team does the assessment, Psychology does 7 their assessment, Health Services does that 8 assessment, and say, well, hey, this guy is 9 clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded 10 him to go. But the inmate said, well, you 11 know, I'm a 306. 306 is refusal of programs. 12 I'm not going. So, put me in SHU. So, that's 13 how he eniciiiiiiiISHU. 14 MR. : Sure. So, he was in SHU 15 already? 16 MR. ..eah. 17 MR. : And do you believe he was 18 a good placement for Epstein? 19 MR. : Well, at the time, again, you 20 would have to be mindful, we don't - how could 21 I put this? - inmates are not placed in cells 22 based on race, or - but however - or gang 23 affiliations, all of these things that, you 24 know, but however, you vet inmates. So, you 25 say, okay, well, you have guys up there that - 59 1 at MCC - that were facing murder charges. 2 There's a lot of them. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : Hey, I mean, if they're in 5 SHU, that means they can't cope on the outside. 6 They can't cope in the general population unit. 7 So, we would look at him just like another 8 inmate. 9 MR. Mm-hmm. 10 MR. He never hurt another inmate. 11 MR. And that was going to be 12 my next question. So, he wasn't known to 13 assault a• 14 MR. : Bro, he never assaulted 15 another inmate. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. : Yeah, he got a murder beef, 18 okay, that's fine. But guess what? He never 19 hurt any other inmates while incarcerated. 20 MR. : Sure. So, taking, 21 though, that he was incarcerated due to murder, 22 though, and that Epstein claimed that he tried 23 to murder him, do you think that - do you 24 believe that there was any credibility to that 25 claim? 60 1 MR. : Again, what I will say is, is 2 that I will tell you, like you said, my 3 statements before, that it was brought to my 4 attention that inmate Epstein was doing 5 manipulative behavior, kind of testing the 6 water to see what he could get away with. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : Being his initial 9 incarceration. Probably not too familiar with 10 being in jail, but however, he's a smart guy. 11 He kind of figured out what he could do, in 12 order for him, one) not to go to GP; two) try 13 to get in SHU and try to get a cell by himself. 14 That's kind of where he wanted it to go. 15 MR. : So then, he wanted to be 16 in SHU by himself -- 17 MR. Of course. 18 MR. -- and 19 why he -- 20 MR. Yes. 21 MR. • -- said that -? Okay. 22 So, you believe that he made the claim against 23 Tartaglione because he wanted a cell by 24 himself. 25 MR. that may have been : That's in my belief, after EFTA00111844 61 1 looking at everything, and everything that was 2 done, I believe so. I think that would be 3 accurate. 4 MR. : Okay. It says, "He was 5 placed back on suicide watch for approximately 6 one week." So, that happened the 23rd, and it 7 brought him up to about July 30th. Is that 8 correct? 9 MR. Miii-hmm. Correct. 10 MR. : Of 2019. "Unlike his 11 first and previous placement on suicide watch, 12 Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies 13 reported in his incarceration history. The 14 staff was tasked with determining whether 15 Epstein was in fact suicidal, or using 16 manipulative tactics to avoid assignment of a 17 cell mate. After suicide watch, Epstein was 18 placed on psychological observation, and 19 eventually returned to the SHU." Now, again, 20 and just to go back, this Ten South thing, that 21 didn't never - were Lieutenants bringing it to 22 you? Like he he should be on Ten South? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : You don't recall any 25 Lieutenants saying that? 62 1 MR. : That wouldn't be a 2 Lieutenant's urview. 3 MR. • Sure. 4 MR. : A Lieutenant, most of the 5 people - and then, I will tell you, I didn't 6 understand SAMS placement until I became a 7 Deputy Ca tain. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : All right? And I understood 10 that, you know, these guys, you just can't put 11 a guy as a SAMS. That identifier, that's an 12 identifier that has to come from Central 13 Office. 14 MR. • Okay. 15 MR. BOP Central Office. 16 MR. • So, if a Lieutenant - so, 17 if we're talking Lieutenants, and they're 18 saying, he should have been in Ten South -- 19 MR. : Well -- 20 MR. : -- but they don't know 21 what they're talking about, basically? 22 MR. : No. Because that identifier 23 - because I believe you know this - it's an 24 identifier. 25 MR. Mm-hmm. 63 1 MR. : That's put on an inmate just 2 like - I will give you an example - sentencing 3 designations. Oka ? 4 MR. Sure. 5 MR. : That's their job. 6 MR. Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : They're going to do, say, 8 what Security level inmates, what type of 9 prisons they go to, if they're a transgender, 10 you know, all of these different things, all 11 that stuff is going to come from that Central 12 Office, to say, okay, we looked at this 13 particular inmate's history, or PSI, and we 14 feel that this identifier needs to be placed on 15 this inmate. So, a SAMS identification, or 16 moniker, put on an inmate, executive staff 17 can't put that on there. 18 MR. . Sure. 19 MR. That's going to come from 20 Central Office. 21 MR. Okay. So, although a 22 Lieutenants have thought -. 23 MR. : They may have - yeah - they 24 may have thought and said, yeah, due to, yeah, 25 his situation, of him being a multi- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 billionaire, or whatever, or due to his issues of his proclivity to sexual deviances, and all of these things, he wouldn't be a good candidate to go to GP. But guess what? That responsibility, that identifier, that moniker should have been put on Epstein before he even came to MCC. MR. : Sure. So, do you know if this is something - obviously, it sounds like it would have been out of your hands - would that be something that the Warden would discuss with, what? The Regional Director? MR. : That's right. The Warden would have had that discussion between SIA, the Regional staff, and also, it goes to the Region, the Central Office staff over Correctioiiiiiiiiiiming. MR. : Okay. And you were never MR. And designations. MR. • -- involved with any of that? MR. : I would never be in any of those conversations. MR. Okay. Fair enough. So, EFTA00111845 65 1 who would be the two to - I guess the Warden 2 would be the right person to go back to and 3 just say, hey, did this ever come up in 4 conversation? 5 MR. Right. 6 MR. : Okay. Okay. It says, 7 "At the direction of the Warden, 8 initiated the process of compiling possible 9 cell mates for Epstein, vetting them and 10 submittingi2E4idates to the Warden for his 11 review. and his staff fully screened 12 potential cell mates, and reported their 13 determinations up to the Warden. Efrain Reyes 14 -", E-F-R-A-I-N, R-E-Y-E-S, "- was selected and 15 housed in a cell with Epstein." 16 MR. ..hat's right. 17 MR. : And it says, "The 18 Assistant Warden," but I'm assuming they mean 19 the Associate Warden, "Warden and Regional 20 Director were notified." 21 MR. ...Okay. This is how that went 22 down. Mr. sat with me - not with the 23 AW present - and we wanted to - we started 24 talking about security protocols, moving 25 forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That's with me 66 1 and Mr. , we had this discussion. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. Because like I said earlier 4 in my statement, even though the AW would have 5 been my next in succession, as far as my 6 Supervisor, however, I did have conversations 7 directly with the Warden, as far as for 8 security situations (Indiscernible *00:57:32) 9 in the institution. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 MR. : So, we sat there, and he 12 wanted me to compile names, and vet inmates 13 that would be possible good candidates as a 14 cell mate for E stein moving forward. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : So, I brought a compiled, I 17 believe I had ten names, and he and I went 18 through those names, we brought it down to 19 three. Then those three names, Mr. 20 because I sat there - when he called the 21 Regional Director, on the phone, and he and the 22 Regional Director vetted those three names. 23 MR. Sure. 24 MR. rnd then, I sat there, and I : 25 was privy to that conversation. I sat there, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 and he gave them, and he faxed him the whole makeup of all three of them, and the Regional Director said, no I want this guy. MR. So, the Regional Director MR. EYes. MR. : -- ultimately made the decision? MR. : Yes. MR. So, give me a little background on Reyes. What was he in for? MR. : I believe Reyes was a Hispanic, older male. I believe that particular inmate was in for - I think he was in for child - some type of sexual stuff. I can't remember. MR. Some kind of a charge with -- MR. MR. MR. of charges MR. MR. MR. Charge, dealing with -- -- sexual -- -- with, you know, those type sexual -- • So, a similar type of -- similar type of charges -- . -- charge. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 MR. : -- as Epstein, I believe, or I can't remember. MR. : Okay. Was he - when he was being vetted - was he close to, like, a release date or anything like that? An anticipated release date? MR. : No one knew that. Because this is what you need to understand about MCC. MCC and MDC are basically jails. They're not prisons. MR. : Sure. MR. rt's a jail. So, that means if a guy goes to court, you know, you get locked up, and then, the next day, you might go to court, the Judge might say, no, I'm releasing ou. We don't know. MR. : Sure. MR. : The only time we'll know is when the inmates come back from court, where is this guy at? He was released. MR. : Gotcha. MR. rkay. Now, we got this guy still in our count. So, if they don't bring a transfer order, our count is bad. So, they're going to bring the transfer order back with EFTA00111846 69 1 them for court line. These guys got released. 2 So, normally, court line is over before 4:00. 3 So, we try to get these guys up. Do some 4 inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do. 5 But however, we don't know if an inmate goes 6 out to court if they're coming back. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : However, there is times when 9 they put out a roster, and it's given to - as 10 far as all Correctional Officers that work the 11 units, and it will say, court line, inmate 12 Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That 13 means that he has to come downstairs with all 14 belongings. So, if they say it, that means 15 he's not coming back. That's either he's 16 transferring to another BOP facility, or he's 17 going to be released to the street. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : But I can guarantee you that 20 that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes 21 was on that day, it didn't say WAR. Because it 22 would have said WAB, the first thing that that 23 OIC should have said, that's my orange tag guy. 24 Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, 25 and I made them put them up on the board. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 Epstein is that orange tag guy. He's supposed to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU Lieutenant wasn't there. But he would have called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don't have a cell. MR. : Yeah. So, how long did it take to vet? You know, I know you said you started it with ten, and then it brought down to three, and then the Regional Director ultimately decided the one. But how long does that process take? MR. : I believe it took - I'm thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took a day. MR. MR. : Okay. : I mean, we actually went - and, you know, I don't know - I know either the Warden and I was having a lengthy conversations, because the Warden wanted to ensure - Warden philosophy when dealing with Mr. Epstein was this: he's another inmate. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. rnd what he tried to try to : get across to exec staff, and what he tried to 71 1 get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to 2 when I disseminated down to the subordinate 3 staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about 4 what his char es are? 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. : Or since he's sensationalized 7 in the media. Nobody cares. 8 MR. : Of course. 9 MR. : We're going to manage him 10 appropriately. Because if you know anything 11 about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn 12 and MCC, we don't run those jails. The court 13 runs those ails. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : So, and that's the truth, the 16 court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says 17 goes. So, and that's unfortunate, but that's 18 neither here nor there. So, Mr. wanted 19 the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, 20 he has certain charges, but we're going to make 21 sure he gets everything that all the inmates 22 get when they come to MCC. The inmates are 23 going to get proper care. The inmate is going 24 to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. 25 Whatever it may be. But however, after those 72 1 situations with Epstein where it showed that 2 his behavior was manipulative, when it shows 3 that he was trying to get things for 4 unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to 5 get anything that would benefit him, we had to 6 take some different protocols. We had to take 7 a different - the had to take a different -- 8 MR. : Approach. 9 MR. : mindset with this guy, or 10 the way we managed him had to change. Because 11 we already had this guy saying that he was 12 going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or 13 whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, 14 moving forward, we put protocols in place that 15 will prot2is_1,L25 an Agency. 16 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, speaking of 17 protocols, was it discussed, then, when you 18 were vetting these, hey, we have inmates 19 constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is 20 moved, one of these other two that were down to 21 the three would be moved in with him? Was that 22 discussed? 23 MR. : No. He would just basically 24 - because like I said, again, at MCC, you 25 wouldn't know how long the duration on the EFTA00111847 1 inmates sta 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 start the 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 MR. 10 MR. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 Sure. You wouldn't know. So, you just have to vetting process -- : Press it -- -- over again? -- all over again. Okay. : Whoever is available in the unit, that may be single-celled, because as you know, our policy and protocols in the Bureau of Prisons are dealing with restricted inmates, and Special Housing Units, they cannot be celled alone. MR. MR. MR. • And -- They must have a cell mate. • -- in the Special Housing Unit, ever one must have a cell mate? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : Oh, I didn't know that. So, every sin one needs to have a cell mate? MR. : Except - except, because it's one of the areas that we didn't discuss, outside of Ten South - there was a range that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 was meant for - it was, like, a stepdown from Ten South, that only had one man cell occupancy which on G-range. MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. Was that part of the Special Housing Unit? MR. Mit-hmm. MR. : So, there is a part of the Special Housing Unit that is a one-man occupancy, and -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- another part that has two-man occu ancy? MR. : That is correct. MR. Okay. And Epstein was housed in the two-man occupancy? MR. MR. : Was it ever discussed to put him in one of the one-man occupancies? MR. MR. MR. : No. No? : Because all of those cells were filled with inmates that were vetted, that needed that t e of supervision. MR. : Okay. MR. : You had inmates in there 75 1 that, if they was put with another inmate, 2 inside of the Special Housing Unit, they would 3 die. 4 MR. And was part of that -- 5 MR. Whey would be assaulted. So, 6 we would have to make those considerations. 7 So, the protocols of how we dealt with inmates, 8 according to their situation -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. M.- I believe it was sound. 11 But guess what? You can only - you're like the 12 coach - I can make the game plan, but if the 13 players are not executing the game plan, whose 14 fault is that? Is it the coach? Or the player? 15 MR. : And exactly, and that's 16 what we're doing here, we're Monday morning 17 quarterbacking. We're just saying, like, all 18 right, this is - and that's why we're going 19 back through it. So, "The Warden directed 20 on multiple occasions that Epstein 21 needed a cell mate at all times, and 22 verbally informed his Lieutenants the same. 23 repeatedly directed his SHU Lieutenant - 24 Lieutenant - that Epstein needed a cell 25 mate at all times. Additionally, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 visited the SHU on multiple occasions, and directed staff to be very alert and attentive about Epstein's special accommodations." So, when you say that about the SHU staff, did you also inform the SHU staff that Epstein needed to have a cell mate? MR. : Yes. MR. Oh, so, they all were -- MR. Yes. MR. -- were aware? MR. Yes. MR. Can you look at the - so, the SHU staff for both of August 9th and the very early morning hours of August 10th - can you just list the people and let me know if you informed those people? MR. : So, basically, my hours of work were normally from - let's just say 7:30 to 4:00. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, I ensured that it wasn't within one week, but it was a process of doing rounds. So I tr to hit every shift. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, I hit the day watch EFTA00111848 77 1 because that's the one I work. Evening watch, 2 I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys, 3 this is the situation. Let's make sure that, 4 you know, we're paying attention. And then, 5 morning watch, of course. 6 MR. Okay. MR. Eo 8 MR. : So, beginning at 8:00 : 7 9 a.m., then, on August 9th, can you just look to 10 who - and name the people - can you just name 11 who was in the SHU, and if you've ever had a 12 conversation with them, if they were aware. 13 MR. I. Okay. Let me see here. 14 Well, we had . I've talked to 15 Perry Joiner Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was 16 in there. was one of the guys 17 that was u there as a Rec Officer. 18 MR. So, all -- 19 MR. : Him. 20 MR. -- all of those people 21 were, you had conversations -- 22 MR. Mies. 23 MR. : -- specifically with 24 them, and the 25 MR. 'I'll': I've talked with these guys. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 MR. Absolutely. Can you just name the other people for the shifts after him? I think tiiiiiist MR. : You got - now, M. Thomas. M. Thomas, what you need to understand is, that he would have been - because, you know, like I said - overtime. Non-custody. He's non- custody staff. I don't have conversations with him. MR. Okay. So, Michael Thomas MR. So, that mean -- MR. • -- may not have known? MR. -- right, because realistically, the morning watch and evening watch shift, eo le don't like to come to work. MR. : Sure. MR. : So, they - if you sign up for overtime, you say, oh, SHU two is open. Okay. I'll take it. But you're non-custody. So, that means anybody can work it. A teacher. A Food Service foreman. MR. : Is the SHU easier to work than the other units? MR. : I wouldn't say it's easier, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 79 but it's less labor intensive. MR. : Okay. MR. recause, in my opinion, from when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing was always hard work because I'm going to tell you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I mean vigilant, you have to understand, when you're working that Unit, anything can happen. It could be quiet. But guess what? If you're not walking, looking in those cells, testing the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, sometimes doors was unlocked. MR. MR. doors, those MR. MR. MR. MR. . Mm-hmm. Or flaps opened. To chase What is a flap? -- the Food Service flap. Okay. Sure. : You know? Making rounds. Making sure the inmates are not - have coverings up when you open up the - what do you call it? MR. The window? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 MR. : The windows or putting a towel over their beds, and blocking the light from you being able to observe them. MR. MR. MR. MR. . But then, how -- And what I said about -- but how -. -- but I want to go back because I know about the statement, about the doors being left open. I'm talking about more in general population, as far as when you're making rounds, those type of things, you test. Making sure the door is secure. Making sure the food slots are secure. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : As an Officer coming up, even as a Lieutenant, do you know that I've actually walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that's supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide open? MR. : Wow. Ever at the MCC? MR. : No. Because that wasn't my capacity. MR. Sure. MR. What wasn't my job. But as a : Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a EFTA00111849 81 1 Lieutenant making rounds, that's what I would 2 do. When I hit a unit, it wasn't just to talk 3 to staff. I would walk in and look at the 4 Security protocols in the Unit. Is their fire 5 extinguisher there? Good. Your phone work? 6 Computers work? Hey, let's walk the block. 7 Pulling on doors. Pulling on food slots. 8 Showing - tr in to train the Officers. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. That's what I used to do. 11 MR. : Lead by example. 12 MR. : And guess what happens? You 13 would find stuff, because people in hurry 14 enough to go home on that evening watch, them 15 inmates know their doors are locked. But they 16 know they're not going to come out. Because if 17 they come out, there's a situation. But 18 they'll situ there and leave it open. 19 MR. : So, back to this, though. 20 Can you look at the other SHU on, you know, the 21 subsequent shifts, if you had conversations 22 with them? 23 25 MR. Wo -- 24 MR. : So, Thomas, no. MR. : -- so, Thomas, because he 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 82 would have just been on there. Mr. Washington. Yeah. I've talked to Mr. Washington because Mr. Washington would go between evening watch, because I would talk to him. Clyde would work evening watch, so I've talked to him on evening watch. He was working morning watch because these guys, it was such short of staff, that these SHU guys was working back to back shifts. Or staff. It didn't matter. People who wanted money, or wanted to, you know, they would sign up for overtime. So, Clyde Washington was one of the regular SHU staff on the evening watch. Yeah, so, I talked to him. IIIIIIiiiPercy Joiner. I talked with him. would go between the three, and also the OIC, because he had the most knowledge out of those guys. So, sometimes, he - even though he was the three - he was the one with OIC duties. MR. : And OIC stands for Officer-in-Charge? MR. MR. MR. : Officer-in-Charge. : Okay. : So, he was doing all the rosters. When it was time to move inmates 83 1 inside of the Unit, you know, he was in charge 2 of ensuring those Sentry rosters was updated, 3 to ensure that the accountability of the unit 4 was correct, to make sure that the inmates were 5 placed in their proper cells. Who was this? 6 I'm sorry. Hold on. 7 MR. : And so, in the SHU, we 8 want to be focusing on? 9 MR. : T. Noel. T. Noel was one of 10 the -- 11 MR. And that's Tova? 12 MR. -- now, I know Tova. 13 MR. Yeah. 14 MR. : Now, Tova, I can't remember 15 if I spoke to Tova. Tova - exactly. 17 MR. rut I know that I had hit all 16 MR. : Okay. 18 three shifts. Meaning that, day watch. I was 19 always up there on day watch. Evening watch. 20 I stayed over because that's what the Warden 21 wanted. He told me. Hey, make sure you go and 22 hit all three shifts. The Warden told me to do 23 it . So, if the Warden told me to do it, why 24 wouldn't Ili? 25 MR. : Sure. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 84 MR. : The Warden -- MR. Okay. MR. : we sat down, he said, these are the things that I want to happen. First, I want you to make sure, walk through, talk about, make sure the staff is aware, (Indiscernible *01:13:53) are doing this, this, and this. And also, I know that you have - that I put out an e-mail. So, I just didn't tell them - what do you call that? - by -- So, you sent an e-mail to MR. all the SHU? MR. : Yes, I did. To all Correctional Services staff. And I think I still got it. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. to anyone? MR. it. To all Correctional? Yeah. I still got -- Did you ever provide -- that e-mail. : -- that to anyone? Huh? Did you ever provide that No. And they never asked for EFTA00111850 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 MR. Can you absolutely provide that to us? MR. : Yeah. I think I have one, and we can go to my office, so I can show you. I don't want you to think I - I will bring it up for you. MR. : So, would have this Michael Thomas and Tova Noel been on that e- mail? MR. : Tova would have been, because he's a Correctional Officer. But not Thomas. MR. MR. MR. MR. • Okay. You understand? • Okay. : But however, what we did was MR. I thought everyone was considered a Correctional Officer. That's not the case? MR. : As far as when emergencies happen. MR. Okay. MR. : When emergencies happen, regardless of what your discipline is, we all come together, it means you going to - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 everyone, when you came in the BOP, everyone was given the opportunity, that when you went through Correctional - those tactics that you learned in Glynco, it was about being a Correctional Officer. It wasn't about being a Dentist, or being a Chaplin, or whatever. It's about Correctional principals. Okay. : Introduction to Correctional MR. MR. principals. MR. : But as far as there is an e-mail that just the people that are working in the Correctional Officer -- MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : Yes. • -- okay. And I can show that to you. Perfect. have that. Awesome. MR. : Because it wasn't just me just talking to them. I put out guidance, and I kept putting out guidance. It wasn't like it was one time. I talked about inmates being placed on suicide watch. I talked about inmates putting on there - what is the 87 1 difference between close supervision - what is 2 it? - suicide watch. 3 MR. Psychological 4 observation. 5 MR. : And psychological. There's 6 no such thing as psychological - and that you 7 know now - there's no such thing. It's called 8 close supervision. There's no such as 9 psychological. That was an MCC thing. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. What they made up. So, it's 12 a close and/or suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, you have at least one 14 e-mail, though, that you sent to Correctional 15 Officers saying that Epstein needed a cell 16 mate? 17 MR. : It wasn't saying Epstein, but 18 I do have two. I think I gave one e-mail and 19 one memorandum that I wrote for the 583 packet 20 for Epstein. I think you may have that. I 21 don't know if you have it. And then, I have 22 wrote another one about the important of doing 23 30-minute rounds in the Special Housing Unit. 24 MR. : Okay. Yeah, if you can - 25 after we're done - either you can send it to 88 1 me, or you can give it to me. 2 MR. : I can give it to you. I'm 3 going to ive ou a copy. 4 MR. . Perfect. 5 MR. NO-hmm. 6 MR. All right. Then just -- 7 MR. And so -- 8 MR. -- I think there's a few 9 more. Like, I don't know how to spell his 10 name, pronounce his name, but -- 11 MR. : So -- 12 MR. 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 16 custody guy. So, MR. : was another non- , I believe worked in 17 - he was a Material Handler. I think 18 was a Material Handler. So, he's not 19 Correctional Services anymore. However, did 20 the have a background - no, I'm sorry. 21 went to R and D. So, he was Receiving 22 and Discharge. So, these staff members worked 23 as Correctional Officers, came up as 24 Correctional Officers. But their daily 25 assignment, their job descriptions changed. EFTA00111851 89 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Their whatever, their non- 3 custody. 4 MR. : So, the people that 5 worked in the SHU, and the Correctional 6 Officers, they were aware of it, but people 7 that had different functions in the facility, 8 they may not have been? 9 MR. : May not have been because I 10 wouldn't talk to them on a daily basis. 11 MR. : And what about, do you 12 know if there were any kind of, like, post-it 13 notes, or sticky notes, or any -? 14 MR. : Yes. I had created - it was 15 one, one, because I said orange card inmates - 16 I said, make sure these particular inmates, 17 inmates high visibility inmates, and I think I 18 talked about that, that the inmates, their 19 cards should be orange. And those would be our 20 high visibility inmates that you - and I think 21 I got an e-mail about that, too - about the 22 high visibility inmates inside the unit, you 23 should take special care to ensure these 24 inmates are -- 25 MR. : Observed. 90 1 MR. : -- observed. When you're 2 doing your rounds. 3 MR. : Anything, though, about 4 the actual cell mate requirement, though? Do 5 you know if there was any kind of, like, sticky 6 note, or any kind of post-it about saying, hey, 7 make sure that Epstein -? 8 MR. : I can't remember. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 10 MR. : But like I said, I was 11 putting out a lot of guidance -- 12 MR. Absolutely. 13 MR. you know, coming from - : 14 and, you know - coming from the Warden, and 15 things that I would have thought that was 16 beneficial to the Correctional Officers. I was 17 just putting that guidance out. I kept putting 18 out. You know, like I said, you know, I'm 19 talking to them, I'm putting out the guidance, 20 but if they don't open their e-mail and don't 21 read it. 22 MR. : What about some of the 23 people who were Actin Lieutenants? Somebody 24 like an SOS 25 MR. : Ms. ? 91 1 MR. . Sorry. So, Ms. 2 Ys. , she would work 3 Correctional 4 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, should have he known 5 that -- 6 MR. She would have known. 7 MR. : -- should have she known 8 that Epstein had -? 9 MR. : It's common knowledge that 10 you're su osed to do 30-minute rounds. 11 MR. . Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And be vigilant. But 13 however, would she know, necessarily, that 14 those protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein, 15 that he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, 16 you see an orange card, if you see the 17 guidance. I believe I had put something 18 together, that was on the OIC's desk, on the 19 desk, talked about the high visibility inmates, 20 and Jeffrey Epstein was a high visibility 21 inmate. 22 MR. : But is it understood that 23 a high visibility inmate like that needs a cell 24 mate? 25 MR. : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 MR. Okay. So, you're saying, make sure you're doing rounds, but it's also understood, if it's a high-visibility inmate, they need a cell mate at all times? MR. ..(es. MR. : Okay. And did they all understand that? MR. Mies. MR. : All right. And to include Thomas and -- MR. MR. MR. MR. . Okay. MR. : And I don't believe I had that conversation with them. I'm not going to lie. I didn't have that conversation with them. MR. What about some of these Lieutenants, like the Acting Lieutenants, like MR. : Ms. ? Oh, Ms. was in Correctional Services. And she - I believe - during that time, was working an Attorney conference. : I don't know. -- Noel? Because they are not custody. EFTA00111852 93 94 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. rhe was in Correctional 3 Service. She was working an Attorney 4 conference during that time. So, Ms. , I 5 actually promoted her to Acting Lieutenant. 6 She was getting paid as a Lieutenant. So, yes. 7 She would have known. 8 MR. : So, she should have - or 9 would have, or should have? 10 MR. 11 MR. : How about some of these 12 other ones that we're on? You said IIII, 13 obviously, ou already said you -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- specifically directed 16 him. 17 MR. : If he - yeah - I brought him 18 in the office, and we spoke. Yes. 19 MR. : Do you know how - and I 20 think you said that you spoke to him on 21 multiple occasions -- 22 MR. Yes. 23 MR. : -- is that correct, and 24 made sure, make sure he has a cell mate? 25 MR. : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. What about MR. I had conversations - well, I don't believe I had a conversation with her. MR. : Should have she known, based upon the orange card? MR. : Yes. She would have known because I put the guidance out through the e- mail. MR. : Now, the guidance, though, said about - you said it talked about rounds as opposed to actual cell mate requirement though, correct? MR. : I can't remember. MR. Okay. MR. : You know, I don't know, because like I said, again, I put out a lot of guidance. MR. r: Yeah. MR. : But I know the people who I actually spoke to as far as, like, hey, you the OIC, I mean, you're the Lieutenant of SHU, that means you working day watch, that means any movement happens on day watch, it don't happen 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 on morning watch. Inmates are locked in their cells. MR. MR. • Right. : So, anything, day watch, evening watch, that SHU Lieutenant should be aware. MR. MR. MR. MR. • Okay. So, that's why And we'll get in -- : So, that's why we would have that conversation. When he and I had that conversation. MR. : And do you remember - so, you recall specifically talking with him - do you - and this is, I want to know about - aside from what they should have known - specific I can't remember about . I believe it's as internal. I came into the Lieutenant's Office and we spoke about it. So, as a collective, the Lieutenants were made aware. I can't say I remember that I would come into the Lieutenants, and we would talk about Epstein. So, again, between the guidance that was put 96 1 out through emails, and the conversations that 2 I would have just encountering Lieutenants, 3 yes, but however, I can tell you for sure, I 4 had a conversation with IIII. 5 MR. : And would have IIII made 6 sure that those people working in the SHU knew 7 this information? 8 MR. : He would have - as the 9 Lieutenaniiiiiiiiiie, yes. 10 MR. : Should have he made sure 11 somebody like - somebody that's not in there. 12 Although, Tova Noel, I think that was her 13 quarterly post. Or at least she was in there a 14 lot of times -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. • -- leading up to it. So, 17 should have he made sure that she -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. -- what about -- 20 MR. : Because she worked evening 21 watch. 22 MR. -- what about Michael 23 Thomas? 24 MR. : Michael Thomas, probably not. 25 But by him working in the unit, he would know. EFTA00111853 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 I mean, you would say, okay, if he's working on evening watching or morning watch, there was no need to move inmates. There was no showers that should have been taking place. There was no hearings. No medical. Nothing that we had to open u a cell door for, for those inmates. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, most of those inmates was done on day watch, there was no reason for them to move these u s. MR. : Okay. MR. : You understand what I'm saying? MR. : Sure. And then, as far as conversations with MR. was one of the Lieutenants. As far as - again - speaking to as Lieutenants as a forum, you know, hey, got to make sure that you guys are doing it, you know, like that. But I know for a fact, the only person that I spoke to, that I pulled in my office, was the SHU OIC. MR. : So -- MR. : Was the SHU Lieutenant. Because they're in charge of that unit. So, I 98 1 disseminate the information and the guidance 2 out to him, and he's supposed to take that 3 guidance -- 4 MR. Mm-hmm. 5 MR. -- and push it forward -- 6 MR. For the unit. So, he's 7 in the charge of the unit. You went to the guy 8 in charge of the unit and you said, hey, you're 9 in charge of the unit. Make sure he's got a 10 cell mate at all times. 11 MR. Yes. . 12 MR. : And he, then, is supposed 13 to take that, and anybody that works within his 14 unit should know? 15 MR. Yeah. . 16 MR. : Okay. What about these 17 Lieutenants, though, especially the ones that 18 are Acting as, like, Ops Lieutenants and 19 Activities Lieutenants -- 20 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 21 MR. • -- pestle like , 22 Durant. I think IIII. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Should have they known, 25 during these shifts, specifically on the 9th 99 1 and 10th -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. • -- should have they known 4 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 5 MR. : I believe so. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But, like again, I would have 8 to go back through my emails, you know, because 9 a lot of the communication that me and the 10 Lieutenants had were through e-mail, because 11 you can't catch them all on shift. 12 MR. Sure. 13 MR. rou know, you catch them : 14 passing and coming. So, I would put out 15 guidance that wa . 16 MR. : But as far as - you said 17 - that everyone knew that he had an orange card 18 and that he was a high visibility inmate, and 19 therefore, he was required to have a cell mate. 20 So, should have they known through that? 21 MR. Yeah. M 22 MR. : And is there any excuse 23 for any of them to say, I didn't know? 24 MR. : I'm not going to put that on 25 the Lieutenant. You know, I'm not going to do 100 1 that. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. not going to be that guy 4 to say whatever, whatever. Because I'm going 5 to tell you what, sir, to be real with you, it 6 was so much oin on -- 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : -- through that timeframe, 9 that I don't want to put my statement to 10 something like that, that could detrimentally 11 harm one of these Lieutenants. 12 MR. Mm-hmm. 13 MR. Ir'm not going to say that, 14 hey, I talked to -- 15 MR. EN: Itigtt. 16 MR. : on this day. I'm 17 not going to do that. 18 MR. : And I'm not saying about 19 speaking. I'm saying just the fact that there 20 was an - and again, you're saying that you 21 don't recall specific conversations about the 22 cell mate re uirements -- 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- aside from IIII. But 25 the fact that, if there was an orange -- EFTA00111854 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 MR. : Yes. MR. : -- card -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- is that something that just is common knowledge, if someone has an orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he's got an orange card he needs a cell mate? MR. Right. But then again, also, it was high visibility guys on - what do you call that? - on -- MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. Ten South? -- no. On G. Oh, okay. The -- On that -- -- the one inmate. -- that one occupancy. So, with the guidance I had put out, I got to give you that e-mail. MR. : Okay. MR. : That e-mail was saying that, hey, these guys with these orange cards, you need to ensure hi h visibility vigilance. MR. : So - all right - so -- MR. : Ensure that these guys, you know, are alive, and all of this, you know, 102 1 report any, you know, I went into detail with 2 that. 3 MR. : Okay. So, maybe not, if 4 it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily 5 mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they 6 just require -- 7 MR. : Higher - or higher 8 supervision. 9 MR. Okay. So, you just need 10 to know what they're doing at all times, and 11 make sure that they're okay? 12 MR. Illifeah. 13 MR. : All right. So, in this 14 instance, it wouldn't be, necessarily, cell 15 mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye 16 on Epstein, make sure that he's -- 17 MR. That is correct. 18 MR. : -- all right. So, 19 is the only one that you can specifically 20 recall -- 21 MR. Yes. 22 MR. : -- and again, what you 23 said -? 24 MR. : And then, again, when I went 25 on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure that is done. MR. • Okay. MR. : Making sure this guy -. You know, that's what I did. MR. Okay. MR. : Because that's what Mr. wanted. So, I did it. MR. All right. And then, again, just to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding you. You said you talked to specifically about it, but when you did visit the SHU, not only were you telling them to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you also telling them, the people that you did interact with, that he needed to have a cell mate? MR. MR. MR. MR. Yes. • Okay. Yes. On Friday, August 9th - or sorry - when is the last time, can you recall, that you had that conversation with the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 up. 25 SHU staff? MR. MR. MR. 104 : I can't remember, sir. No problem. : I don't remember. Because like I said, that guidance came out between the time of him being upon his release from suicide watch from that last time, to the time during the time that we was doing the vetting for the cell mate. MR. MR. So -? : So, it was, you know, it was a short period of time that this guidance and these conversations took place. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And then, the reinforcement was when we would walk through the unit and just do rounds. And then, I'm, like, hey, this is a high visibility guy, why this guy got trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like me because I was trying to hold people accountable. But I didn't always write people MR. Mm-hmm. EFTA00111855 105 1 MR. : That's how I did, I came up 2 like that. I'm trying to help you. People 3 thought me trying to just talk to them about 4 Correctional Services, or trying, giving them 5 little, you know, helping them out, talking to 6 them, you know, that I was trying to be the 7 know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You 8 know, you're not sociable, but now you're down 9 here, telling us what to do. You're not one of 10 those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, 11 again, I can give you the playbook to success. 12 But if you don't read it, it's just words. 13 MR. Sure. 14 MR. rt's just words. And then, I 15 had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You 16 know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, 17 even though, in my previous statement, I would 18 never say anything statements to hurt them. 19 I'm not doing that. But what I'll tell you 20 was, the relationship between me and the 21 Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we 22 move forward through today, you know, the 23 statements that I make is not to try to put 24 blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing 25 I'm doing is, is telling you that, when the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, and I know that staff is going to blow you off. I mean, like, yeah, whatever. I'm glad he out the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to whatever we was doing. It's what it is. MR. : Sure. And just so you know, just to give you a little bit of peace of mind, we're asking you the questions directly. You're not placing blame on anybody. : Right. : So, if we ask you : Yeah. -- like -- Okay. : -- if they were something, that's not on you. : Oh, okay. Well, I just MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. responsible or MR. wanted to -- MR. MR. understand that. MR. : Yeah. -- because I didn't : Yeah, yeah. 1 2 3 4 was responsible -- 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR. But -. 20 MR. : And that's not what I'm - I 21 mean, I'm not here for that. I'm just -- 22 MR. Right. 23 MR. -- I'm just here -- 24 MR. I mean, we do have to 25 figure out -- MR. here - I mean -- MR. 107 : Because like I said, I'm not I mean, we might say who MR. : Right. MR. -- or did they drop the ball? MR. Right. MR. But that's us asking you a direct question. Not you coming to us, saying, it was this guy's fault. : Right. You know, we're asking you. So, just -- : Oh, okay. Yeah. -- you know? : That's what I didn't MR. MR. specificall MR. MR. MR. understand. 108 1 MR. You know? 2 MR. : -- who did drop the ball 3 here. 4 MR. Yeah. . 5 MR. : But that's not - you're 6 not comin to us. We're coming to you. 7 MR. : Right. I understand. 8 MR. So, "On Friday, August 9, 9 2019, Lieutenant was on leave, and thus, 10 there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to 11 the SHU." 12 MR. : That is correct. 13 MR. "In this event, the 14 Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant 15 MR. Man-hmrn. 16 MR. : -- had oversight that 17 day, and took over the responsibilities of the 18 SHU Lieutenant." 19 MR. Ma-hmm. 20 MR. : So, what time did - can 21 you look at the - oiliiiist 9th - what times 22 that he worked on? 23 MR. : The periods that - this is 24 Friday, ri ht? 25 MR. : Correct. August 9th. EFTA00111856 109 1 MR. : I got so, basically, I have 2 was not there. 3 MR. r: Oh. 4 MR. : He was there on that 5 Saturday, which was evening watch on that 6 Saturday. 7 MR. Did he not work 4:00 p.m. 8 to midnight? 9 MR. : He worked 4:00 p.m. - 10 midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. 11 MR. : Okay. You can speak. Do 12 you know something different? 13 MR. : No, no, no. I was just 14 clarifyin . 15 MR. : Oops, sorry. Can I see 16 the August 9th? 17 MR. : So, who was working on August 18 9th? 19 MR. Au ust 9th, it appears I 20 think you 21 MR. All right. So, 22 would have been the Ops Lieutenant? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. Well, and then 25 11111111? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 MR. ..eah. MR. : And then, underneath them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been Durant, and then, MR. IIIIIIIIIiight. MR. : Correct. All right. All right. So, they must have got this wrong somehow. So, it said - so, this is not accurate, when it says in this report - "In this event, the Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant , had oversight that day and took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who actually had oversight, then, since El was out? MR. : That would have been the day watch Operations Lieutenant. MR. And who was that? MR. : The day watch Operations Lieutenant for Au oust 9th would have been - it appears it was MR. So, would have been responsible? MR. MR. understanding that : Right. And is it your knew that he needed a 112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 cell mate? MR. : I believe so, yes. MR. • Okay. All right. So, that was incorrect, all this stuff about the thing. And then, it goes on to say, informally advised his Lieutenants that Epstein was not to be housed alone, and emphasized the need to be vigilant about 30- minute checks and unannounced rounds." And that's - you said there was emails about that, as well as when you spoke with your Lieutenants, and when you went to the SHU, specificall ? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Correct? All right. And you don't remember the last time you did that, but between Au oust -- MR. MR. August 9th, MR. MR. hit at least time? MR. : Correct. : No. -- between July 30th and at least did it a few times? : Right. Okay. And you think you all three shifts between that 1 MR. Okay. 2 MR. I believe I did. Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. Inmates, cell 4 mates, and are typically the people that are 5 assigned to the SHU, are they in those three 6 shifts, or you would have hit the people that 7 are assigned between that time period? So, 8 point being, maybe you don't remember 9 specifically, I had a conversation with that 10 person, or that person, or that person, but if 11 they're assigned to SHU, not a temporary duty 12 assignment like an OT -- 13 MR. Right. 14 MR. : -- type of assignment, 15 but the peo le that were assigned there 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- that was their duty, 18 too -. 19 MR. : So, like, I remember 20 specificall I hit day watch. 21 MR. Ri ht. 22 MR. 23 remember Mr. Perry. Percy or Perry. Whatever 24 his name. I remember those guys. 25 MR. Mm-hmm. EFTA00111857 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : I know I spoke to know I spoke to different guys. The SHU that was ... there. MR. : But you just don't specificall remember talking to Noel? MR. : No. MR. : Okay. MR. : She might have been in the background somewhere. • Right. : She could have been there. I But I don't remember -- But IIII should have MR. MR. don't know. MR. spoken -- MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. -- actually -. -- with her? Of course. Okay. : Because that's part of - that's part of the expectations of the unit. If I give you a guidance, your guidance should have been disseminated down to the Officers. MR. : Okay. How about the people - so, we were going to get into this later, but since we're conversing about it now 115 that would have been SHU one, because he would have got the notice that he was supposed to move the u s. MR. : And who was that? MR. And move the inmate. MR. And who was that? MR. It was MR. . And what time was he woiiiiilfrom? MR. : He was working from 8:00 to 4:00. MR. : So, he was 8:00 to 4:00. And those times are accurate on there, and if some Lieutenants said, oh, we, you know, it says zero to 8:00 -- : Right. • -- but we're actually 113 . I staff 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 - it looks like Reyes was moved - I think his appointment with court was at, like, 8:30, and I think -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. • -- he was gone from the institution b -- MR. Mm-hmm. MR. • -- like, 1:SO p.m. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : Does that sound right? MR. : Something like that. It could have been. MR. So, who was in the SHU at that time? If he's gone from the institution by, like, 1:50 p.m., who would have -- MR. : So, that would have been -- MR. • -- who would have -? MR. : -- all of your 6:00 to 2:00, and your 8:00 to 4:00 staff. MR. MR. Okay. So, that would have been -. MR. : So, I guess let's go from the top. Who would have been the person in charge at the top level? MR. : That, I mean, as far as - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. 10:00 p.m. -- R. : And that's true, but the Officers worked those prescribed shifts. MR. : Okay. MR. : The Lieutenants was given those shifts because of their commutes. MR. Okay. MR. : Some of them were commuting 116 1 two hours out. So, for them to come from 2 various parts of New Jersey, or Long Island, 3 you know, as a consensus, we said, hey, I will 4 continue - because that was the previous 5 Administration, the previous Captain put that 6 in for those u s. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, you know, with those 9 conversations, you know, with the Lieutenants, 10 I said, I will keep that. I said, you know, 11 you try to do things - where I came from, we 12 didn't do those things. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : You know, as far as that, you 15 know, the Captain ran his shifts, whatever the 16 shift was, you did it. But when I came to 17 Brooklyn, that was a common practice in 18 Brooklyn. You know, the Captain would allow 19 them - when I was the Lieutenant - would allow 20 us to, you know, to work those shifts. And due 21 to, we've got staff that commute far out. So, 22 that was just an incentive to get these guys to 23 come to work. 24 MR. Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : You know? EFTA00111858 117 118 1 MR. Sure. 2 MR. : So, yes. 3 MR. : But the times for these, 4 the SHU staff, that's the actual hours that's 5 listed on that. 6 MR. : But for the Line staff -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- the Line staff, that 9 roster correctl imitates their schedule. 10 MR. : Perfect. So, who, then - 11 I guess you said they would be working until 12 4:00 p.m.? 13 MR. Right. 14 MR. : So, they would have at 15 least two hours to be able to do something. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. And who was it that was 18 on that da 19 MR. : So I had . I had 20 Joiner. I had . And I had 21 MR. And did you speak with 22 all of those individuals about the need for a 23 cell mate? 24 MR. : I believe I did because they 25 were day watch, but like I said, it wouldn't 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have been on Au ust 9th. MR. Right. But just -- MR. : It would have been on -- MR. -- but they would have known the need to -. MR. : They was in the unit. MR. Okay. MR. : For thatiiiiiiir. So, once I got the guidance from Mr. , of what he wanted me to do, I moved on and did it. So, I can't tell you, but I know I spoke to the day watch SHU staff. MR. Sure. MR. : They was the first ones I spoke to. MR. So, who, then - out of there - who would have the SHU staff reported the matter to? MR. • The what now? MR. So, the SHU staff that's in there MR. Mm-hmm. MR. • -- they now know that he doesn't have a cell mate, and the cell mate is not coming back. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 MR. : Okay. So, they would have known that he wasn't coming back until probably evening watch. MR. : Okay. So, you don't think thoiiiiiis would have known? MR. : No. They wouldn't have known. Because I don't know when the inmate left the institution, but what happens is, when that court line comes out, I believe that the inmates leave the institution - supposed to - between 6:00 and 8:00, or 7:00, you know, let's say 7:00 to 9:00. So, between that time, those inmates are - they're picked up, and then, they're trans orted to a court. MR. : Okay. So, what time did work? What was his shift? MR. : was 8:00 to 4:00. MR. : So, if we can - let's assume, for this instance, that knows that he needs a cell mate. MR. MR. MR. known. MR. : Right. What should have he done? probably wouldn't have But let's say, for this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 120 instance, he did know. MR. : So, if he knew? MR. : He knew that he needed a cell mate, and he knew that the cell mate wasn't coming back. MR. : He probably wouldn't - but what I'm trying to tell you, sir - he probably wouldn't have never known. MR. I know, but in this instance, I'm .ust saying, let's -- MR. : Oh, oh, okay. MR. -- let's say that he did. MR. : Okay. So, the instance of what would have happen. What would happen was MR. What should have he done? MR. • -- he should have - okay, this guy is not coming - he should have notified me. MR. Okay. MR. rnd should have been, like, : hey, Cap, hey, Reyes, Epstein's cell mate, hey, he went out to court, he's not coming back. MR. And he did not? MR. : No. EFTA00111859 121 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : No one later informed me that 3 that inmate had even went to court. I didn't 4 even know he went with the court. Because 5 guess what? During the time this inmate is in 6 court, Epstein is in Attorney visiting all day. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : So, nobody would have even 9 thought about it because, oh, Epstein is in 10 Attorney visiting, his cell mate is not in 11 there. Okay, his cell mate went to court. 12 Nobody would have even been made aware that he 13 didn't have a cellie until when they went to 14 put him ph sicall in the cell. 15 MR. : Okay. So, when do you 16 think it would have been - in this instance - 17 when do you think it would have come up? 18 MR. : As far as knowing he didn't 19 have a cellie? 20 MR. Correct. 21 MR. : Somebody should have known 22 when he didn't come. That should have been on 23 evening watch. 24 MR. So, who was on evening 25 watch? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 MR. : So, evening watch, well, well, well, well, well, well let's see here. You're talkin about as the OIC? MR. In the SHU. MR. Yeah. MR. : Yeah. MR. : That would have been MR. Okay. So, MR. Mm-hmm. MR. And who should have he reported the matter to? MR. : He would have reported it to the Operations Lieutenant. MR. : And who was the Operations Lieutenant at that time? MR. : I believe the Lieutenant would hav2_22na_ttat would have been ■ MR. IIIIIIIIII: All right. And iiiiii you, no one told you, so, obviously, didn't tell you. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. So MR. and would iiiiiiirectly to : Yeah. He would have called 123 1 . But guess what? I was there. I 2 didn't leave that night until, like, 8:00 3 something. I as there until 8:00 that night. 4 MR. : Right. And you did not 5 visit the SHU that night, though. Correct? 6 MR. : I can't remember. 7 MR. All right. 8 MR. : I'm not going to say did I 9 make rounds that day or didn't I. I don't 10 know. 11 MR. Yeah. 12 MR. rut I know I didn't leave : 13 that institution until late that night. 14 MR. : And you know, though, 15 that Reyes, you were never aware - on that day, 16 August 9th - that Reyes -- 17 MR. Had went to court. No. 18 MR. : -- you didn't even know 19 he went to court, let alone wasn't coming back. 20 MR. : Correct. : Okay. So, 21 MR. 22 should have went direct to ? 23 MR. Correct. . 24 MR. : All right. And 25 is somebody that you did have a conversation 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 with, with regard to the need for a cell mate. Correct? MR. : I don't know if I - again, talking to eo le in all three shifts, do I remember ? Working in the unit? Yeah. But as you're talking to people, I don't remember that, hey, I talked - there's certain people that I can't remember that I spoke specificall to. MR. : Right. MR. : As opposed to some people, you know, could have been in the area. That's why I can't - I know I talked to the day watch SHU staff for sure. MR. : Okay. MR. rid I mentioned those names. I talked iiiiiiiiiiuys. MR. : So, but should have certainly have told them? MR. El Yes. MR. : So, he's the Officer-in- Charge. Who else was on that day? MR. : You had Tova Noel. And she was the number two. And then, you had M. EFTA00111860 125 1 MR. : Tova Noel. Correct? 2 MR. -- yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Noel. And then, you had M. 5 , was SHU three that day. And then, you 6 had the SHU four not assigned. 7 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. So, those three 8 people were in SHU. So, was it ultimately the 9 Officer-in-Charge responsibility, or should 10 have these other two - and Noel - have 11 taken any action? Should have they contacted 12 anyone? 13 MR. : Well, if you're walking, and 14 you're doing rounds in the unit, you would see 15 - especially at the 4:00 count, because you 16 need to know where all of your inmates are - 17 so, at that 4:00 count, and where is Epstein? 18 Epstein is at - he's in Attorney visiting, 19 because I'm going to get a count slip from 20 Attorney visitin right? 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Where is Reyes? Reyes is out 23 at court. Then somebody should have called R&D 24 (Phonetic Sp. *01:45:06). Where is this guy 25 at? Somebody should have called R&D. That 126 1 means the Lieutenant would have been notified 2 because you can't clear the count. Where is 3 the inmate at? 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. WI, if you can't clear the 6 count, where is the inmate? The inmate went 7 out. But it's now 4:00. But I did say that 8 sometimes inmates don't come back on the 4:00. 9 So, they call that "ghosting." Supposedly, 10 he's supposed to be at court. But did you get 11 a count slip from court? No. When he leaves 12 out of the institution, that's on them. So, 13 that means the institution number should have 14 came down minus one. 15 MR. : So, you believe that the 16 SHU should have known by 4:00 p.m., during the 17 4:00 p.m. count? 18 MR. M.'eah. 19 MR. : All right. And let's - 20 in this case - if they didn't do a count at 21 4:00 p.m., should have they somehow known 22 otherwise, after that? So, would someone have 23 contacted them and said, by the way, this guy 24 is not cciiiiiiack? 25 MR. : Right. So, that means that, 128' 1 only time you're going to know is when these 2 guys always come back from the court line by 3 4:00. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : But sometimes they don't come 6 back at 4:00. 7 MR. : Now, what time was their 8 shift? Was it 4:00 to midnight? 9 MR. : Who? 10 MR. : The people we were just 11 talking about the evening watch. 12 MR. : Yes. Their - yes. 4:00 to 13 midnight. 14 MR. So, 4:00 p.m. to 15 midnight. At that point, if it was recognized 16 that there was no cell mate and he needed a 17 cell mate, could have a - if they did contact 18 the Ops Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant did contact 19 you - could have an inmate been assigned at 20 that time, or would have had to have wait the 21 next day? 22 MR. : Well, what I would have done, 23 if I would have known right then and there that 24 he didn't have a cell mate, he's already in 25 Attorney visiting, right? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 that the 4:00 count, when you going through the unit -. MR. But if they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. count. So, let's say, in this instance, that they didn't do a 4:00 p.m. count. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. Nobody would know. • Would R&D have -- Nope. -- called them? No. So, unless they do the count, they don't even know that the guy is not coming back? MR. : That's right. MR. Okay. MR. : So, normally -. MR. : So, no one is calling them and saying, by the way, your guy that went to court, he's not coming back? MR. : Right. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because you would know. Because like I told you before, sometimes inmates go to court and don't come back. The EFTA00111861 129 1 MR. : Yup. 2 MR. ro, I would have went on 3 ahead. All right. Keep him in Attorney 4 visiting. I would have called - guess who I 5 would have called? I would have let the AW 6 know. Ms. IIII. Well, Ms. , and 7 I would have called the Warden. I would have 8 said, hey, look, this guy went out the WAB 9 today. Or Reyes didn't come back from court. 10 We got to vet another guy. 11 MR. Okay. 12 MR. What's what would happen. 13 And plus, I was there at 8:00. So, let's say 14 he got released from Attorney visiting, and he 15 didn't go back, and when they went to the - 16 let's say, hey, this dude - he don't have a 17 cell mate. I would have been, like, hold up. 18 I would have said, because I got R&D staff down 19 there. Ri ht? 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Because I can't put him on 22 suicide watch. I can't put him on close 23 supervision. So, I would have said, hey, 24 quarter this guy right now in R&D, put a staff 25 member on it, which would have been Fox One. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 Put him on Fox One. Put a staff member down there. Let me call the Warden. MR. : What does Fox One mean? MR. That means - that's R&D. MR. : Okay. MR. That's that cell assignment, I believe. MR. : Okay. MR. It would have been Fox One. MR. : And are those -. MR. : Just, I can't just put him on suicide watch. MR. : Right. And in Fox One, people monitored at all times? MR. : No. But I would have had somebody monitored -- MR. Oh, I gotcha. MR. M.- I would have had, hey, put : a staff member down there, and watch this guy, until we et him a cell mate. MR. : Okay. And you think that that same day, August 9th, he would have had a cell mate if were made aware? MR. : Yes. If I was made aware, he would have got a cell mate. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. and say, anybody, MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. 131 Okay. Now, let's go back if did know, and didn't tell he didn't tell you, he didn't tell : Mm-hmm. -- is he the one that -- : He dropped the ball. -- right. : Because, again, like I told you about count, and you made a good statement, then how did 'au clear the count? MR. : Mm-hmm. So, the two people that - so, if knew, and he didn't tell anybody he dropped the ball, but at the same time, if the 4:00 p.m. count was conducted, they would have, then, raised the issue with MR. : Right. MR. : So, there would have been two checks there. MR. Milight. MR. : And if not that, it would have also happened at the 10:00 p.m. count, as well. MR. : Right. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 MR. So, if the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. count were both conducted, there would have been notice, hey, no cell mate -- MR. .Correct. MR. : -- bring it up to MR. : Correct. MR. All right. So, if didn't know, didn't tell him. So, dropped the ball, the SHU staff dropped the ball, it looks like. MR. Right. MR. : Okay. Before we move on from that, do you want to talk to anything specific to that notion? MR. MR. MR. No. . Okay. : Can we take a break? MR. . Absolutely. All right. It is currentl 11:58 .m. This is Senior Special Agent , and I am pausing the recording. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record and back on the record). EFTA00111862 133 1 MR. Okay. The recorder is 2 on. It is currently Tuesday, June 15, 2021, at 3 12:06 p.m. We just took a short eight-minute 4 break. And Mr. , I remind you that you 5 are under oath. Thank you very much for your 6 cooperation with this matter, and it is 7 voluntary, and you can choose not to answer, or 8 leave at an time. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : All right. So, what we 11 are talking about before, before we move oris _i_ 12 just want to go back to, so, you said, if IIIII 13 knew he dropped the ball, if the SHU staff 14 didn't do their counts at 4:00 p.m., and at 15 10:00 p.m., that's when they would have next 16 found out that Epstein was without a cell mate, 17 and they would have, then, reported it up. 18 MR. Mn-hmm. 19 MR. : Correct? What did we want 20 to followiiiiiith on that? 21 MR. : If a notification came from 22 court that Reyes wasn't coming back, who would 23 have got that notification? 24 MR. : That notification would have 25 came though R&D and through the Control Center, 134 1 which, the Control Center would have updated 2 the count in Sentry, to reflect if the inmate 3 was physically in the institution, or was still 4 out in court. So, it would be contingent to 5 look at that Sentry roster, which would be the 6 E-1, that the Control Center had created for 7 those counts, to find out if Reyes was still on 8 the count, as physically being in the 9 institution, or out the court. 10 MR. : Okay. And if R&D and Control 11 did get that notification, did they have to 12 notify the SHU? 13 MR. : Yes. Because then the count 14 would be off. 15 MR. : If, let's just say that that 16 notification came between 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 17 p.m., who in the SHU would have got notified? 18 MR. : The OIC. Which would have 19 been - for day watch - it would have been 20 either or 21 MR. : And what should they have 22 done? 23 MR. : And with that one time, they 24 would have reflected on - inside of Sentry, and 25 also, they would have known that the inmate was 135 1 not physically there, and they would have had 2 notified the Operations Lieutenant, that this 3 guy didn't come back. So, that means somebody 4 would have had to make sure that the 5 institutional count was right or wrong. 6 MR. : So, in this instance, if 7 knew, who would have been the one that 8 would have informed him? 9 MR. : That would have one of the - 10 that would have been either 11 would have notified him, but then, I also said 12 that worked in the capacity of OIC 13 because a lot of those Officers would say, oh, 14 I don't have the ability to log on, into the 15 program. So, he would do double duties. 16 MR. : Okay. So, let's say that 17 the SHU staff that time did notify 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. Let's say now 20 didn't take an action. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. Okay? Now, let's say the 23 next SHU staff comes on board, should they 24 continue iiiiiiort the matter up the chain? 25 MR. : Yeah. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 MR. Even though the SHU that replaced them already made the notification that Epstein was without a cell mate and needed a new one? MR. : Because their count would have been off. MR. • Well -. MR. : And then, they wouldn't have known that, you know, when they brought him back from Attorney visiting, that the cell was empty. MR. : Right. And I'm not specifically talking about the count right now. What I'm saying is, like, if the SHU did notify , hey, Epstein is required to have a cell mate and his cell mate is gone, we need to get him a new one. MR. : Right. MR. now never takes any action. Should the SHU, later that day, made the same notification to the - in this case - to ? Hey, Epstein still hasn't been re- assigned a cell mate. MR. : Correct. MR. Okay. So, the SHU may EFTA00111863 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 have done it right at day watch, and got the notification, but the SHU on night watch -- : Didn't do it. . -- didn't do it, and they MR. MR. should have. MR. : Because he was in Attorney visiting. So, they said, oh, it was an empty cell. We said, okay, yeah. Epstein is still at Attorney visiting. Nobody would have cared about the cellie because they would have thought he was still out at court. MR. : Okay. MR. r3ut if he didn't come back by 8:00 that night, somebody should have said something. MR. : Now, let's go even further from, now we go from evening watch to now morning watch, we're on August 10th, where Noel and Thomas are now in there. MR. MR. notification MR. MR. should have -. : Correct. Should have they made the They wouldn't have known. All right. So, they 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 MR. : They would have been in the unit, with the assumption that all of the inmates have been accounted for by the previous shifts because the count didn't go - wasn't bad. MR. : So, that's the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? MR. ..orrect. MR. : Are you saying they don't really need to do those counts? MR. : No, no, no. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, they would have not known that that inmate didn't come back from court, if it wasn't addressed on either at day watch or evenin watch. MR. : Okay. MR. : They wouldn't know. They would just - can't be responsible for counting what inmates was housed in that unit, between the hours of 12:00 to 5:00 a.m. Because those are the three counts. MR. These. MR. : So, yeah, let's see - so, these are the counts - let's look. MR. : So, the 5:00 p.m. one? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 139 MR. : All right. So, I got the MR. : 5:00. MR. -- it looks like we got the 5:00, the 10:00, the midnight, the 3:00 a.m., the 5:00 a.m., and then, is this the rounds? MR. : Yeah. That's the control. MR. The control. MR. : Yeah, we don't want this. I'll take MR. Okay. So, here are the counts from August 9th, from 4:00 p.m. through August 10th through 5:00 a.m. MR. II.kay. MR. : Now, we have reason to believe that the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 p.m., none of them were conducted. MR. : Okay. So, you're saying that the 4:00 count for August 9th was not done, and the 10:00 wasn't done? MR. : And the 10:00. And nor was the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., or the 5:00 a.m. this. 140 1 MR. MOkay. So 2 MR. : Now, is there a way to -- 3 look at that, if there is someone, let's say, 4 because at the 12:00 a.m. count, you'll notice 5 there is a discrepancy. There is one inmate 6 they're off by. Control says, hey, you're off 7 by one. 8 MR. IIIIIIiiiiight. 9 MR. : Is there a way to kind of 10 look at these counts and notice, all right, 11 this would have been picked up then, or a way 12 to kind of tell that these weren't conducted by 13 just looking at those documents, or noticing 14 if, you know, if Reyes is gone by 1:50, you 15 know -- 16 17 MR. Yeah. MR. : -- he's released. Is 18 there a wiiiiiitell that on there? 19 MR. : Because you've got it right 20 here. 21 MR. Okay. 22 MR. : This is the form right there. 23 This will tell you who the inmates are, out of 24 count 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111864 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 141 MR. : And that's from Small. He was one of the receiving and discharged employees that was probably working on August 9th. MR. Okay. MR. ro, she would know who was : still out at count. So, that means, Operations Lieutenant didn't even sign it. That's a violation. MR. : So, this document that you're looking at, it looks like - what is it? - like, the third page on there? MR. : Yeah. That they should have - because you've got right here. Clark. Unassigned work assignments. So, this inmate Clark. This saving he's out at court. MR. MR. MR. MR. one. But we know where he is because he's still out at court. So, Reyes, that count - so, if he went out to court, let's say we was at 88, let's just say. When he went out to court, him and Clark went out, we would have Okay. So, he -- • Okay. : -- so now, our count is minus 142 1 went down to 86. But guess what? Reyes drops 2 off the count. How? He got released. Where is 3 the -- 4 MR. : So, if he was released -- 5 MR. M.- form that should have came 6 from the Marshals back to us, saying that he 7 got released. 8 MR. : So, between the 10:00 9 a.m. count and the 4:00 p.m. count, would there 10 be a form in there showing that he was 11 released? 12 MR. : There should have been. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That should have been 15 generated from the Marshals because it's a 16 transfer order. You heard of a transfer order? 17 Every time an inmate goes off, if you've got 18 ten that went out to court that day, that's 19 that transfer order. Whatever the disposition 20 of those inmates are, okay, boom, ten went out 21 to count, eight coming back. Okay, where are 22 the other two? Okay. I got this guy that's 23 still out of counted, and he's at court. He's 24 still at whatever, at this timeframe. Where is 25 Reyes? There should have been a transfer 143 1 receipt signed by the Marshals by the staff 2 that was at the New York court over there, the 3 people that handle the inmates, that transfer 4 order should have been sent back with whoever 5 was transporting the inmates, and brought back 6 to the institution to say that this guy never 7 came back. 8 MR. : So, that third page that 9 you're saying, though, that that was a 10 violation that the Operations Lieutenant didn't 11 sign? 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Would have that been 14 or , at that time? 15 MR. : Because all of this stuff, 16 it's called a 30-day file. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, what the Lieutenants are 19 supposed to do on their shift, is supposed to, 20 when they make rounds in Control, they're 21 suppose - because we're supposed to take a 22 count on every shift. Especially in the off- 23 hours. So, before Epstein, that was a 24 responsibility. On the off-hours, you will be 25 responsible for taking the count. So, that 144 1 evening watch guy would take that 10:00 count. 2 Right? Or somebody would take the 4:00 count. 3 So, the Operations Lieutenant or the Activities 4 would normally go down and take the 4:00. They 5 would go through the paperwork for that day, up 6 to 4:00, and you would sign all of the forms. 7 Like, if somebody checked out keys, restricted 8 key forms 0 erations is supposed to sign it. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : If a transfer order receipts 11 comes back, you're supposed to sign it. 12 Whatever happens on that shift, you're supposed 13 to sign the count slips. That form, right 14 here? That should have been signed by the 15 Lieutenant. 16 MR. : Okay. So, these forms 17 that we're looking at 4:00 p.m., there is a 18 number of si natures that are missing? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : And should have that been 21 the Lieutenant, as in - it looks like 22 or -? 23 MR. : Official preparing count, 24 official taking count. Those are going to be - 25 so, the person that was taking that count would EFTA00111865 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 have been the OIC, then the person who actually was there as a Lieutenant that was taking the count, normall we would sign it in red. MR. : Now, the Lieutenant, when you say they're there, aren't they in the Control Center? MR. : They're in the Control Center MR. And then, the SHU calls - MR. -- while the Officers are doing the count. MR. Okay. So, the SHU calls in, says, we got the count, 72, 73, 74, whatever it is. MR. Ed -hmm. MR. : And in this case, when you look at the 4:00 p.m. though, you're seeing that there was no Lieutenant that signed off on that? MR. : No. MR. So, on the first page, as well as the third page, was where they should have signed? MR. : Right. 146 2 MR. reah, because I got a - look 1 MR. : All right. And then -. 3 - I got a signature for this one, that was 4 approved by the Operations Lieutenant right 5 here. 7 MR. What's - I don't know who 6 MR. : And who was that? 8 that signature is. 9 MR. All right. It looks like 10 would have been on duty, is that what 11 time? 12 MR. : That's going to be 4:00 p.m., 13 whoever took the 4:00 .m., that Lieutenant 14 would have been 15 MR. : Okay. Can we go to the 16 SHU count slips themselves? And that should be 17 the last, like, page or two. 18 MR. : See, yup. Those are the 19 inmates that went to the Attorney visiting. 20 So, those three would have been on the count -- 21 MR. • Mm-hmm. 22 MR. -- slip. Now, you said 23 where? 24 MR. The very last page. 25 It's, like, the actual slips. 147 1 MR. These? 2 MR. : Yup. So, these are the 3 slips that the actual SHU - for the ones that 4 are in the SHU. Can you just put an initial by 5 it, or circle it, or whatever, which ones it is 6 that would have been conducted at the SHU? 7 MR. : Okay. I think it's Zulu 8 Bravo. Zulu Al ha. 9 MR. : So, ZA and ZB are the two 10 SHUs? 11 MR. Miles. 12 MR. : Are there any more than 13 that? 14 MR. : You have - so, that's - 15 you've got Food Service. GS, (Indiscernible 16 *00:12:11) Attorney visiting. That's Kilo 17 India. That's court. Kilo Zulu. Yes. So, 18 Zulu Alpha would have been that, and then, that 19 would have been Ten South. 20 MR. All right. So, Ten 21 South. 22 MR. : Charlie Alpha. Charlie 23 Alpha. 24 MR. But no, just specific to 25 the SHU. Like, where? Not - I don't know if 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 148 Ten South is considered SHU, but I'm just talking specific to, like, where Epstein was, in the SHU. Like, who, you know, the -- MR. : Yeah. MR. • -- I'm assuming the 72, 73 count. MR. : Yeah. Right here. That would have been the Zulu Bravo and the Zulu Alpha. MR. All right. Great. And are you able to tell me who all are on those slips? MR. : It says S. and Tova Noel, and MR. MR. the 4:00. MR. MR. for the 4:00 MR. . Okay. And that would have been for . All _fight. : For M. IIIII, and Tova Noel, count. Okay. And now, what is the difference between the ZB and ZA? MR. : I believe that ZA is the total SHU. MR. Okay. EFTA00111866 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 MR. : And then, then you had the inmates that were up on Ten South. MR. : Okay. So, the ZB, is that Ten South, then? MR. : Yes. MR. : So, we're focused on ZA? MR. Yes. MR. : All right. So, ZA, and that one was signed by who? MR. : It looks like Noel and M. MR. : Now, if that count wasn't actually conducted, are they the only two that are responsible for falsifying that, or would the other_g9p1e -? MR. IIIIII: This would be the whole Unit. It would be -- MR. The whole Unit. MR. -- the OIC, everybody that was in the Unit. MR. : Okay. MR. : Because that means, on evening watch, I believe you have one, two, three, four staff, and they all have a different range that they have a responsibility 150 1 of. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know what I'm saying? So, 4 they feed us, they feed the ranges. They 5 monitor the ranges by doing the 30-minute 6 rounds. So, the OIC has the key. So, those 7 other three staff - the number two, the three, 8 and the four, I believe - they're supposed to 9 do rounds, feed, do - issue cosmetics - do 10 whatever they need to do as far as the normal 11 operations inside the unit. So, if nobody 12 counted, that means who count, who help assist 13 in countin in Ten South? For the five guys. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Because I believe the 16 Lieutenant is supposed to come up. Normally, 17 the Activities will go up, I believe, and do 18 the count in Zulu Bravo. So, that means that 19 one of the Lieutenants would be up in the unit 20 when the count was going on. 21 MR. : So, in this case, a 22 Lieutenant should have actually been present? 23 MR. 24 MR. : Which Lieutenant on that 25 date would that have been? 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 9th? 151 : So, that would have been -- That was the August 9th. -- that would have been -- Are we looking at August 6 MR. : -- so, probably took 7 the count. And then, R. - or Ms. 8 would have been in Ten South, 9 doing the count in Ten South, I believe. If I 10 could remember. It's been a while. 11 MR. All right. So -. 12 MR. recause it's only per - 13 there's only one staff member inside of Ten 14 South. 15 MR. : So. Ms. should 16 have been resent for the count at 4:00 p.m.? 17 MR. : Yeah. Because I'm looking, 18 and you have Ten South number one was Mason. 19 And then, you had Ten South number two was II 20 . So, probably was up there 21 doing proiiiiiiiiii 22 MR. : Now, is this only for the 23 four, or should there have been a Lieutenant, 24 as well as in the 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 25 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 152 1 MR. : So, S. 2 MR. : So, who is S. ? 3 MR. : S. is one of the 4 Officers. 5 MR. : What is the first name on 6 that? 7 MR. : S. . And then, I'm 8 looking in here, so, Ten South number two is II 9 , which is the Property Officer. So, 10 during that time, I was hiring to go 11 up here and get the property situated on the 12 evening watch. 13 MR. : So, is S. even 14 working in the SHU at that point? I think he 15 would have had the first -- 16 MR. : Because, you know, that - 17 because that would have been S. . Let 18 me look at the day of, because I don't think he 19 would work that, because it said is 20 the number one. 21 MR. : And that's where I'm 22 confused, by looking at some of these counts, 23 why would the even have -? 24 MR. : S. was on overtime. 25 So, was day watch. So, that means EFTA00111867 153 154 1 Mason probabl came in late. 2 MR. 3 MR. : So, . probably did the 4 count because Mason didn't get there. And now, 5 he was notorious for that. 6 MR. Okay. 7 MR. Okay. Mason a good guy, but he : 8 had some health problemsialTaybe he didn't 9 get there on time. So, went on ahead, 10 and since the count started at 4:00, he 11 probably went ahead and did the count. 12 MR. : All right. And are you 13 able to tell on that, does this have a time for 14 when the count was supposedly conducted? 15 MR. : It's all of them going to 16 reflect 4:00. 17 MR. Just 4:00. 18 MR. : 4:00. It's not going to say 19 4:05, 4:04. The count is 4:00 p.m. 20 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 21 though, the one for the overall SHU, that would 22 have been - you said - is that a (Indiscernible 23 *00:17:15), or are you just telling that's for 24 the Ten South? 25 MR. : Overall SHU would have been 1 Zulu Alpha. 2 MR. Yeah, and who was on 3 that? That's where I'm -. 4 MR. Noel and 5 MR. : So, and 6 Noel would have been the one that did the 7 overall, but what you're saying is everyone 8 if the overall count was not conducted - 9 everyone was responsible? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : For falsifying that? 12 MR. Yup. 13 MR. : Because everyone would 14 have known. 15 MR. They would have known -- 16 MR. • That it wasn't conducted. 17 MR. -- that it wasn't conducted. 18 MR. : Now, is there any kind 19 of, like, hey, we fed them, that's how we did 20 our count? 21 MR. : No. Count - because I put 22 this guidance out -- 23 MR. : Yup. 24 MR. : -- the difference between 25 doing rounds and accurate rounds, you know, we 155 1 talked about the timeframe that goes between 2 the 30-minute rounds. So, like, let's say it's 3 11:00. You should do a round somewhere between 4 11:00 and 11:30. You understand? 5 MR. : Yup. 6 MR. rf it's done at 11:29, that's 7 fine. But you should be doing it within that 8 30-minutes because it has to be irregular. So, 9 you can't put on there and said, I did rounds 10 at 11:00, 11:30. 11 MR. r: 12:00. 12 MR. : 12:00, 12:30. You know, you 13 can't do it like that. So, let's say, you 14 know, you're feeding up there, you're up t here 15 feeding, but that round is not going to be - 16 because you're not monitoring, you're doing a 17 service. Just because you're on the range, 18 that means you did a round. A round is 19 physically stopping what you're doing. So, if 20 I'm feeding during the time it's supposed to, 21 I'm supposed to do a round, secure the slot, I 22 go to the beginning of the range. One, two, 23 five, seven, nine, 11, whatever, whatever, 24 whatever. Document the time I did the round. 25 Then go back to feeding. It's not while I'm up 156 1 there. Okay, I'll feed the range, it took me 2 seven minutes, 7.9 seconds to feed a round. 3 And so, that's telling me that you did a 4 regular round for a hour, one hour, because you 5 was up there for 4S minutes? No. Did you do a 6 round? 7 MR. • Right. 8 MR. : Did you - can I physically 9 watch youliiiiiiiiiell to cell? That's a round. 10 MR. : But what about - so, can 11 a round can't be a count - but can a count be a 12 round? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : So, every 30 minutes, if 15 you're doing a count at 4:00, you also have to 16 do a round at 4:00? 17 19 MR. ..up. 18 MR. : Okay. MR. : Because if I go up there at 20 4:00, if I go - let's say I start 4:00. At 21 4:00, that's going to be that round. You 22 understand what I'm saying? Because count, I'm 23 taking accountability of the unit, so, if it 24 takes probably two or three minutes a count, 25 that would be 4:03 that I count in that range. EFTA00111868 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 I go to the next range. I'm done at 4:09. 4:16. 4:20. 4:27. Guess what? Between that 30 to 5:00, I got to go do another round, in between that timeframe, not to exceed 40 minutes. That's the policy. MR. : Okay. Do you know anything about the SHU not conducting rounds? MR. : Do I know of SHU not conductiniiiiiiii MR. : If the personnel in the SHU. Do you know of anything about that, of them -? MR. : I would have never known that those staff were not - because again, that's not my purview. MR. Sure. MR. To sit down there and monitor MR. MR. MR. So -- rounds. -- I just mean, like, had anybody told -- MR. N W o. MR. : -- told you this? MR. : No. I would have never known 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1581 until after the Epstein thing, we had to monitor the camera footage of what the SHU staff did, and I was appalled to what they were doing on the off-hours. MR. : So now, after the fact, are you aware if any of these counts were conducted or not conducted? MR. : I was not made aware that no count was conducted because I do not monitor camera footage of the staff -- MR. MR. MR. the fact. MR. : Now, I know, and I was - and again, when I had to monitor the footage per the new directive that was put out for the Central Office, and the Captain would have to monitor X amount of hours of SHU footage per week? Even after we had the situation with Epstein, staff wasn't still doing it right. MR. : But in the - what I'm asking is - in those instances, do you know if the 4:00, the 10:00, the 5:00, on these August 9th and August 10th, do you -- No, I'm saying after -- -- so, I wouldn't know. -- no, I'm saying after So now. 159 1 MR. : I would have thought they 2 would have been done. 3 MR. : -- but do you - now - do 4 you know if they were or they weren't? 5 MR. : I was told that they were not 6 conducted. 7 MR. 4:00 p.m., as well? 8 MR. : I was told that the Officers 9 that were assigned to the morning watch shift 10 did not do rounds from the time they walked 11 into that Unit until the time that they found 12 inmate Epstein deceased in the cell. 13 MR. : That, I think what you're 14 referring to is the August 10th -- 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. -- I'm saying August 9th. 17 MR. : August 9th. I would have not 18 known that. 19 MR. No, no, no, no. Now. 20 I'm talkiiiiiiiut. 21 MR. : Now, I'm aware of it. 22 Because if the inmate didn't come back from 23 court, hoiiiiiiiiiiclear court? 24 MR. : And did you know that 25 prior to this conversation, though? Have you 160 1 ever -- 2 MR. No. 3 MR. -- oh. Yeah. So, what 4 I'm sayin is -- 5 MR. : So, this is all new to me. 6 MR. : -- okay. So, you didn't 7 - you had never heard, up until this date, that 8 it's possible that the 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 9 p.m. were not conducted? 10 MR. That is correct. 11 MR. : All right. And no one 12 ever brow ht that to your attention? 13 MR. : That is correct. 14 MR. : Okay. You can just 15 speak. 16 MR. : Did you - what if I told you 17 there was a memo written by Officer 18 stating that he told Officers 19 and Joiner that at 1:50 p.m., on August 9th, 20 that inmate Reyes was going WAB, and possibly 21 not retur, 22 MR. : Hmm. Didn't know anything 23 about that. 24 MR. : So, no one made you aware 25 about it? EFTA00111869 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 MR. : Nope. So, 1:50. If they knew that he was - like, I remember, I told you - that it comes out automatically, from R&D. It says, the X, Y, Z inmate won't be returning, so he needs to bring his belongings to court line. So, if they knew he was WAR, who informed him? Because I bet you, I can guarantee, on that Sentry paperwork, that was generated that morning, that night - so, that would have been the 7th, because it's generated on the 7th for the 8th - no, the 8th for the 9th, I know it didn't have WAB on it. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. Belongings. MR. : Okay. So, my question -- • What does WAB stand for? -- With All Belongings. • Oh. : That's what you would -- : Huh? WAB stands for With All Right? : Yes. MR. : So, and here's my question for you. If Officer MR. : Mm-hmm. was aware of that 162 1 MR. -- he would be made aware by 2 who? 3 MR. : He would have been made by 4 R&D staff. 5 MR. : Who was the R&D staff that 6 day? 7 MR. : Well, the only one I could - 8 because he's not on our roster, he's not 9 Correctional Services - I can only go by this. 10 MR. : And who is that? 11 MR. : Ms. Small. 12 MR. : Ms. Small. Okay. 13 MR. : But I can tell you Ms. Small, 14 she works from - I think her end shift is 15 10:00. So, that means she would have been 16 there around 2:00, because I think she worked 17 2:00 to 10:00. I don't think - on the weekends 18 - I don't think the R&D staff stayed past 19 10:00, past 10:00. You understand what I'm 20 saying? 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, they didn't stay past 23 10:00. 24 MR. : So, my question is, if R&D 25 knew, should that Control document - on the 163 1 first page - should that have been updated by 2 then? 3 MR. : Yup. This E-1 -- 4 MR. : So, is that -- 5 MR. : -- this E-1 should have - 6 this is not a correct E-1. 7 MR. : So, the E-1 is wrong? So, at 8 that point, that 4:00 p.m. count, that out - 9 what is that? The last column, what does that 10 say? 11 MR. : Which one, sir? 12 MR. : The out count. The out count 13 shouldn't have shown 1:00 for the SHU. 14 MR. : Right. Because it would have 15 said 2:00. You know what I'm saying? Because 16 that means that out count from the SHU was 17 Jeffrey E stein. 18 MR. : If you look at it, is the 19 Epstein popping up on another column over 20 there? Under attorney visit. 21 MR. : It should have been on -- 22 MR. : Is there an Attorney -? 23 MR. : -- Attorney visiting. 24 MR. : Is he on there? On Attorney 25 visiting. At - check the first or second 164 1 column. 2 MR. : Okay. Let's see. 3 MR. : Is there one that says ATTY? 4 MR. : Okay. No, sir. I don't see 5 ATTY on it. 6 MR. : Can I see that for a second? 7 This one ri ht here. 8 MR. : Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 9 MR. : I pointed to the first column 10 that said it. 11 MR. : Okay. I'm sorry. Yes. It 12 shows that there was a total on the - a total 13 of three inmates that was out at Attorney, and 14 out at Attorney visiting, during the 4:00 p.m. 15 count. 16 MR. : And one of them, did one of 17 those inmates belong to the SHU? 18 MR. : One of those was Zulu Alpha. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : And then, at that point, they 22 also - for Zulu Alpha - they're showing that 23 one inmate was for - is still on out count, 24 which means possibly, that it's mentioning 25 Efrain Reyes, then? EFTA00111870 165 1 MR. : Okay. Now -- 2 MR. : The last column. 3 MR. : -- the last column, it says 4 out counts_ititill says 1:00 for Zulu Alpha. 5 MR. IIIIII: So, it should have been 6 updated by then, being the fact that this is 7 the 4:00 .m. count? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : They should have been updated 10 by then, because they got a notification at 11 1:50 that he's not coming back. 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : So, that E-1 document is 14 wrong. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : I, L ow if told 17 Officers IIIIII, and Joiner that inmate 18 Reyes wasn't going WAB, and that Epstein would 19 need to be assigned a cell mate upon arrival 20 from his Attorney visit -- 21 MR. : Yes, sir. 22 MR. : -- Reyes has to communicate 23 where - who dropped the ball, and at that 24 point? 25 MR. : Okay. I mean, for the sake 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 of time, what we talked about before is, that means they would notify by me that he needed a cell mate? MR. : Yeah. MR. : They knew. They knew the expectation. So, that means - if you know that, at 1:50 p.m. he wasn't coming back - that means you should have got on the phone and contactediiiiiiiiiitions Lieutenant. MR. : And we discussed this. And -- MR. MR. MR. : Right. -- and this is -- Right. MR. -- this is where we talked about, if they did that, they let know, is the one who dropped the ball. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Yeah. MR. The next people that would have done it would have been at the 4:00 p.m., the 10:00 p.m. type of count. They should have then, notified the Operations -- MR. : Yes. MR. . -- Lieutenant at the same 1 time. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 MR. : Yes. MR. Correct. All right. And what you're saying, though, is - I think what you said, though, is during the morning shift, the zero dark hundred to 8:00 a.m., or I think it was 8:00 a.m., right? MR. Yes, sir. MR. : It's 8:00 a.m.? They wouldn't have known. MR. MR. MR. MR. : They wouldn't have known. Right. Because they -- They wouldn't have known. • -- because if the counts weren't done at 4:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m., they wouldn't have necessarily known. MR. : They wouldn't necessarily know. MR. : But what about, like, if they had a conversation at 12:00 a.m. with the Ops Lieutenant about the fact that the counts are off, re-do - or was it 10:00 p.m.? MR. ..t's midnight. MR. : The midnight one was the one where the count is -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 MR. : If you look at - yeah, the count. MR. : So, if you go 8:00, 9:00, to - we're goin to 08/10 now -- MR. : What? MR. : (Indiscernible *00:28:37). MR. -- so, 08/10. MR. And she worked 10:00 p.m. MR. At -- MR. : -- and she worked from 4:00 p.m. through. MR. : So, she wasn't (Indiscernible *00:28:41 MR. : This is it right here. MR. : Oh, okay. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, this is it right here. So, we're talking about 08/10/2019, that's going to be - so, this E-1 was generated at 003517 hours. MR. On August 10th? MR. rn August 10th. And this : shows that there's 72 inmates in SHU. MR. : Can you look at the counts EFTA00111871 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for that da MR. MR. MR. to last. ZA. MR. MR. And then, if you could just circle ZA, so we know what we're looking at. MR. : ZA. MR. : What is the count on that? MR. : That is - it appears - it says that the count on that day was 73. MR. And that cleared count was 72, correct? MR. That is correct. MR. Okay. Do you want to follow up? MR. : If there was a mistake with the count, and the Lieutenant caught onto the mistake, what was the -- MR. : And the quota was the protocols? MR. : -- yeah. 169 . The very last page. : Yeah. Or it could be the second So, I'm assuming you're looking for : Correct. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 MR. • All right. This is what happened. So, if I'm the Officers, I count, I count the Unit, and they say 73. The Control Center would have been, like, no, bad count. They're not going to tell you what you counted. They're going to make you count again. So, the procedure is, once that bad count has been made notified, the Control Center notifies the Lieutenant, and the Lieutenant is supposed to go up to the MR. MR. MR. Lieutenant MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. the count. MR. count, that's -- MR. MR. MR. Unit, to observe the count. All right. So -- For -. i -- so, if the n this case, : Right. -- should have gone -- Should have went to the -- -- and observed. -- went to SHU, to observe So, if there is a bad That's right. • -- that's the protocol. That's the policy. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 171 MR. Okay. MR. ro, you go upstairs -. Well, : I'm sorry. That's the expectation. MR. So, expectation, not policy. MR. : I can't - I'm not going to sit up here and quote policy when I don't know it verbatim. MR. Absolutely. MR. rut I will tell you the : expectation is that Supervisor - Correctional Services - a Lieutenant, on an announcement of a bad count will go to the area of the count, and will observe the said count. MR. : What if the Supervisor claims that, when they called in the count, and they said 73, they said, hey, we're calling in 73, but we know we're off by one? Does that make any sense? MR. : That doesn't. That means the institutions count is going to be bad, which -- And then, then that -- -- that is the worst thing MR. MR. that you can -- MR. And -. 172 1 MR. : -- besides the inmate - it's 2 three things - an inmate died, your count being 3 off, or an inmate escaping. Those are the big 4 things right there. If your count is bad - 5 because that's what we get paid to do - we're 6 the masters of count, that's what we do, 7 accountability of inmates, in a Correctional 8 setting. That's what you do. That's what 9 you're paid for. So, you call me, as a 10 Lieutenant, and you tell me, hey, LT., we keep 11 counting the unit, and the unit, and the count 12 is bad. So, the next thing I'm going to tell 13 you, give me some staff up there. I want a 14 standup bed book. 15 MR. : So, if they say that -- 16 MR. : -- so then, I'm going to 17 identify each inmate by their face, and their 18 cell assii,tine get the count. 19 MR. : So, what if they say, 20 we're off by one, but we know where that one 21 is? That one is over there. And then, the 22 Lieutenant res onds -- 23 MR. : But they know -- 24 MR. : -- all right, I'm going 25 to go verify where that one staff is, you redo EFTA00111872 173 1 the count. Would that make sense? 2 MR. : No. What I'm telling you is 3 when it was su osed to have been done. 4 MR. Okay. 5 MR. : Because -. 6 MR. So, even if they said, 7 like, hey, vie wrote down 73, but that - so, 8 let's say Thomas, who is not a typical SHU guy- 9 he's the one that calls this in. He says, I 10 wrote down 73 on the count slip, but that's 11 because one our guys that we're counting for is 12 over at -- 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 MR. 16 MR. 17 Lieutenant then 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 R&D. -- let's say R&D. And -- Okay. So -- -- and then, the says, I'm going to go verify that that person is there, you reconduct the count, and create a new count slip. MR. : Okay. So, it was one RA - I believe that's R&D. RA, I believe, is R&D. Right? No. So, in R&D, there was nobody in R&D. There's no one -- MR. : So, what if the -. MR. : -- there's no one in R&D. 174 1 So, the policy is, the Lieutenant is on there, 2 I'm going to watch you do it, and so, that's 3 the second count. The third count is the 4 standing bed book count. That I used the bed 5 book cards, and I go cell by cell, and I make 6 the inmates say their name and number, and I 7 physicall identif them by their face. 8 MR. : All right. 9 MR. : If that don't work, all of 10 this stuff is supposed to be annotated in the 11 log, that bad count one, bad count two, SHU 12 reports bad count three. Bed book count was 13 identified. The next thing would have been, 14 was to go back through the prior counts to see 15 of the movement, of who was in or out, because 16 if your count cleared here, at 10:00, you only 17 had one out of the unit, which was Epstein. 18 When he came back, that means your count should 19 have went from - if it was 72 here - that's 20 telling me that it must have been 71. At - 21 boom. So, it was 76 -- 22 MR. : Is that the 4:00 p.m. count? 23 MR. : -- yeah. It was 76. Then, 24 at the 10:00 count, on the 9:30 count, it was 25 73. So, where did those three inmates go? 175 1 Where did those inmates go? So, somebody was in 2 there messing with the numbers in order for the 3 count to clear. 4 MR. : In order to find out 5 where they went is it, we have to go into 6 TRUSCOPE (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:52)? Is that 7 where we would have to find -- 8 MR. : You would - you could go in 9 the TRU - most - Sentry is supposed to be full- 10 proof, all- roof 11 MR. Okay. So, Sentry. 12 MR. : But it's only as good as the 13 people that's utting the information in there. 14 MR. : Sure. Sure. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. And are the SHU the 17 people that are putting the information in, or 18 is it the Control Center? 19 MR. : So, this is what happens. In 20 theory, you've got - when inmates come back 21 from court, and they do the transfer orders, 22 and it goes down to Control, R&D is supposed to 23 update those inmates coming back in. Control 24 Center gets the transfer order, and they're 25 verifying. Any time any internal movement is 176 1 done inside of a unit, like SHU, the OIC is 2 supposed to do it. If a Case Manager and Unit 3 Manager, or a Counselor, moves the inmate on 4 the unit, guess what? They're supposed to make 5 that Sentry - (Indiscernible *00:35:49) PP-34 6 transaction in Sentry to make the appropriate 7 move. 8 MR. these, do 9 you believe that 10 MR. 11 MR. bad? 12 MR. 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 MR. 16 through -. 17 MR. 18 It's bad. 19 MR. • Okay. 20 MR. : lust a clarifying question. 21 Can a person do a count - let's just say they 22 know someone is in a different unit - can they 23 say, oh, I know the person is out of the unit, 24 and I'm going to count them as part of my unit, 25 and just give the count number. Are they So, looking at they're all -- These all bad. -- they're all Mm-hmm. All. . All of them? They're all bad. All bogus. All right. So, 4:00 p.m. : The Control Center, R&D. EFTA00111873 177 1 allowed to do that, or -- 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : -- do they have to physically 4 have to g2x2m_2il them? 5 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, it's only - who - the 6 amount of inmates that are in their unit at 7 that time. 8 MR. Correct. 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. That's it. 11 MR. : All right. Let's keep 12 going on this. Thank you for that. That's 13 hugely helpful. So, "Inmates' cell mates are 14 moved for various reasons, including but not 15 limited to an incident in the cell, visits to 16 court, legal library, medical, and recreation. 17 On Friday, August 9, 2019, Epstein's cell mate, 18 Reyes, had court. It would not be uncommon for 19 Reyes to be out of his cell for an extended 20 period. Epstein had an Attorney session that 21 day. Epstein's Attorney was processed into the 22 facility in the morning, and Epstein was 23 brought down to the Attorney room." And you 24 said that that was preiiiiiich seven days a 25 week? With Epstein. " was not notified 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 178 that Reyes was released from court." And again, on that note, would have been the Ops Lieutenant that would have been responsible to tell you, for instance -- MR. MR. MR. : Yes. -- if someone heard -- : If you would recall, he should have - because he know the - he knew the expectation. MR. : Right. MR. : So, by our previous conversation, they knew the expectation. But again, thiiiiiiiiiiot to follow the playbook. MR. : Okay. "Typically, if an inmate is likely to be discharged or transferred following court, their property was retrieved from their cell, boxed and secured with a property form, by receiving and discharged staff. All items are normally accounted for, and inventoried. In order to enter the SHU, all staff not assigned there must identify themselves and sign a logbook, and then be physically escorted by a Correctional Officer. Alternatively, the staff can pick up inmate property at the Unit door. 179 1 A Correctional Officer assigned to the SHU 2 would have been aware that Reyes' - or any 3 inmates - belongings were removed. At this 4 time, the Correctional Officer should notify a 5 Lieutenant, who would in turn brief 6 was not notified that Reyes' belongings 7 were removed. advised that if he had 8 known that Epstein was without a cell mate, he 9 would have likely put Epstein on psychological 10 observation." But now you're saying you 11 probably would have put him off -- 12 MR. : I would have not put him on 13 psych obs, because I can't. 14 MR. : Right. You would have 15 put him in Fox -? 16 MR. : I would have probably put him 17 - if he was already - if I would have known, 18 between those hours of 1:50 to 4:00, I would 19 say, keep him in the Attorney conference, 20 because guess what? I've got a staff member 21 right there. And where he was, there's a room 22 here, so we normally kept him in these first 23 two rooms. So, you could see him. So, I would 24 just say, hey, just have somebody stay there, 25 and I would have hired somebody. I would have 180 1 hired anybody. I'll pay you overtime to sit on 2 this guy until I got him - I would have kept 3 him in Attorney conference, right there - until 4 I got him a cell mate. I wouldn't have had to 5 put him on psych - you're not - that's not - I 6 apologize - I can't do that. 7 MR. : All right. So, this line 8 where you said you would have likely put him -- 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : -- that's not correct? 11 MR. : No, I wouldn't have done 12 that. 13 MR. . Okay. 14 MR. : That's - because like I said 15 in my earlier statement - if it would have been 16 after the hours of operation, let's say 17 everybody - at 8:00, when he went back to the 18 cell in SHU, and because I was still there, I 19 would have said, no, put him in R&O. Because I 20 got R&D staff there until 10:00 21 MR. Mm-hmm. 22 MR. M. would have called the AW. : 23 I would have called the Warden. And 24 unfortunately, we would have the - somebody 25 would have to come in - and we would have been EFTA00111874 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 181 there later than vetting a cell mate for him. MR. : Right. And it says, is not aware of any Lieutenants knowing that Reyes' MR. MR. know of. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. 2019, Lieutenant MR. MR. roperty was moved." : We didn't know. Okay. Well, that you may have. : He may have. But he didn't tell you. Of course. Right. He didn't tell me. "On Saturday, August 10, received a phone call from around 7:00 a.m." : No, that's not accurate. Okay. MR. : I received the phone call from Lieutenant IIII, I believe it was between the hours - approximately - 6:35, between 6:35 and 6:45-50. MR. Okay. MR. Somewhere in there. MR. "And was told that Epstein was found unresponsive in his cell." 182 1 But it was who called you? 2 MR. : Yes, it was. 3 MR. Okay. " inquired 4 about E stein's cell mate, and was surprised to 5 hear respond that Epstein did not a cell 6 mate." 7 MR. Ildat is correct. 8 MR. : So, you immediately said, 9 where is the cell mate? 10 MR. ..es. 11 MR. : Okay. Yeah. Now, this 12 is, again, where I'm getting confused because 13 in the report, they - again - say, " 14 worked a 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. shift on 15 August 9, 2019 -- 16 MR. Right. 17 MR. -- and you're saying 18 that's noslight? 19 MR. IIIIII: No. He would have worked 20 2:00 to 10:00. 21 MR. And did he work on August 22 9th, 2:00 to 10:00? 23 MR. August 9th, on -- 24 MR. I thought we -- 25 MR. -- Right here? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 183 MR. -- I thought we said on August 9tLit_didn't work. MR. IIIIII: He wasn't there. On August 9th, he wasn't there. MR. . All right. MR. So, it's supposedly -- MR. : So, from 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. who was there? 7 MR. iii. : Yeah. But, like, this thing, like, when saying he's non-custody, because you can see these rosters -- MR. : So, was - so, the two - and the Activities Lieutenant was correct? MR. : See, let me - can I school you on somethin ? MR. : Absolutely. Please. MR. : Let me just school you on something. MR. Please. That's why we're here. MR. : These rosters, you see when you printed this roster? You printed this roster here. That says, 06/02/2021. That's this year. I can guarantee you the roster 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 184 don't look like this back on the day the roster was printed initially inputted. MR. So, someone would have changed it? MR. changed it. MR. But does that mean that - Somebody went in here and MR. ..nd I can tell you -- MR. : -- this is inaccurate, or the other was inaccurate? MR. : -- this is inaccurate. I can tell you why because , one, this is how - because I was, like, , non-custody? Why would he make sure that said non-custody? Now, , I temp prompted him to 11. I temp promote him to 11. MR. : Can you circle that? MR. : Because he couldn't have been in the institution by himself. MR. : So, you think that he went in there and put in that (Indiscernible *00:42:09 MR. : I'm not going to say that. MR. But that's not what -- EFTA00111875 185 1 MR. But what I will 2 -- MR. : -- what it normally would 3 say? 4 MR. : No. Because he become non- 5 custody until, I think it was when he got out 6 of non-custody and became a Counselor, I 7 believe that wasn't until 2020. Not 2020. I 8 think it was the last part of '19, going into 9 '20, or something like that. He was still on 10 Correctional Services. But the thing about 11 this roster, all of these pages right here, any 12 time you make a change, it tells you the date 13 and time of the change. So, let's go here. 14 Time change. Activities Lieutenant R. 15 That was done on 08/09, C.P., who - you've got 16 to find out who C.P. was. 17 MR. But 08/09. That was 18 prior to the incident. 19 MR. : 08/09, 09. 08/09. That was 20 done in 9:09 a.m. 21 MR. (Indiscernible 22 *00:43:13 23 MR. : The Ops Lieutenant. It was 24 So, took sick leave on that 25 day, and -- 186 1 MR. So, was sick 2 leave. 3 MR. : changed him 4 on the roster on 08 09 at 8:58 a.m., on 5 Friday, August 9. was relieving an 6 Officer on 08/09, 09, but as you see, where you 7 see N.C. at? 8 MR. What are we looking for? 9 MR. : N.C. Non-custody. It's not 10 there. 11 MR. Oh, and it would have. 12 So, somebody went in, at some point, and put - 13 and if he put non-custody, was that somebody 14 trying to cover up, like, hey, I had nothing to 15 do with that? 16 MR. : I wasn't in custody at that 17 time. He put me in there because, you know, 18 why would I do that? You're a Lieutenant. 19 MR. : So, it's somebody trying 20 to say, like hey -- 21 MR. : I don't know. I got -- 22 MR. • -- I got -. 23 MR. • -- I would have to -- 24 MR. Look into it. 25 MR. -- go through it. 187 1 MR. But that's something that 2 we should address with 3 MR. : That's something you've got 4 to do, from the time you printed one - look, 5 when you printed one of these rosters, right? I 6 can guarantee you, if you go back to the S83 7 packet, and print out the roster for 08/09 and 8 08/10 of 2019, it's not going to mirror the 9 same. It's going to be changed. It's not 10 going to be the same. 11 MR. : And do we have the 12 ability to do that? 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. To go -. 15 MR. It should be in the S83. 16 MR. So, we -- 17 MR. The 583 for the incident 18 MR. Yup. 19 MR. -- that occurred? 20 MR. Mm-hmm. 21 MR. You understand? 22 MR. And that will have that 23 roster in 24 MR. For Jeffrey -- 25 MR. Yup. 188 1 : -- Epstein's -- 2 Mm-hmm. 3 • -- incident. 4 Okay. S Those two copies of that 6 roster should be in there. 7 MR. : Okay. Good point. We'll 8 go back and look at that. 9 MR. : But you printed a couple 10 weeks ago, it's not going to say the - it 11 should. 12 MR. : So, up to - so, just to 13 clarify - up to 08/09 that morniiiiii8:58 14 a.m., before that time, it was 15 schedule? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : That means he called in and 18 - C.P. - at 8:58 a.m. on 19 August 9th changed it over to 20 21 MR. InCorrect. MR. : So, I wonder why - okay. 22 All right. So that is inaccurate. 23 MR. : One more question. Sorry. 24 MR. So, go ahead. 25 MR. : That C.P., can anyone enter MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. EFTA00111876 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 C.P., or it's what it was in the MR. And we did This is on this. MR. : Okay. MR. : Okay. MR. : Okay. Anyone enter C.P., or MR. No. MR. -- or is it -? MR. : Because when you log-in the roster pro ram -- MR. : Okay. It's a system. MR. : -- it's done by your PIV card number. MR. : Okay. No problem. That's it. MR. MR. MR. that, Lieutenant the 10:00 .m. to 6:00 a.m. shift. MR. : Correct. MR. : It says, " did not personally tell that Epstein required a cell mate at all times. He believed she was Okay. Thank you. • All right. And it says is the one who did 189 system? know that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 190 aware because he had informed his Lieutenants repeatedly, and instructed them to pass this message along, and convey the information among themselves." Is that correct? MR. ..es. MR. did not hold a formal all Lieutenants meeting regarding Epstein, or send an all staff e-mail with the Warden's directive." MR. MR. emails with re MR. MR. : Mm-hmm. However, you did send and to -- : Yes. -- the way that they were supposed to act, and their duties and responsibilities. MR. Correct. MR. : And you'll send me that? MR. Yeah. MR. : Okay. "He verbally instructed his Lieutenants on an informal and individual basis, as many as possible with whom he had the opportunit . On Saturday morning, Au 10, 2019, was relived early by IIII." Now, as far as goes - 191 1 - her claiming she didn't - if 2 she's claiming she didn't know, and if you 3 didn't specifically tell her, who should have 4 told her? Or how should have she known? 5 MR. : How she would have known is, 6 is that, when she did rounds, she would have 7 saw those cards. 8 MR. : No, no, no. Okay. So -- 9 MR. : She would have known that 10 these inmates are high visibility. And the 11 guidance was already out, so, it was 12 disseminating throughout the Unit. So, the 13 staff was aware. So, of course, probably in, 14 you know, with her, we didn't have a good 15 relationship, but regardless of the fact is, is 16 that I made the Lieutenants aware of my 17 expectations. 18 MR. . Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : So, even though I might not 20 have told her because she worked the morning 21 watch shift, and by 6:00, she would be gone. I 22 wouldn't see her. 23 MR. : Now, was that abnormal 24 for her to leave before 6:00, before her shift 25 is done? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 192 MR. : They was working 10:00 to 6:00. MR. Yup. MR. : So, by the time I walked in the door, she would be gone. MR. But what I'm saying is, if she's leaving before 6:00, is that -? MR. : Now, before 6:00, that would be a problem. MR. minutes before is MR. MR. MR. So, even, like, ten that a problem? : Not really. Okay. : Not really. Because if the relieving person gets there, because knowing the Lieutenants, some Lieutenants come an hour early. Some Lieutenants come ten, 15 minutes early. It's List whatever -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- happens. Sometimes the Lieutenant has to work late, because they have an incident, or they have administrative duties they have to finish after their shift, which is fine, but they for that. MR. : Right. Okay. "In the EFTA00111877 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 SHU, 30-minute rounds need to be completed consistently, at non-uniform intervals, within a 40-minute timeframe. The purpose of these rounds is to ensure that good order is being maintained, there is no suspicious activity, and all inmates are accounted for and responsive. 30-minute rounds are documenting in TRUSCOPE, which serves as an electronic logbook. After a round is physically done, the Correctional Officer can log into TRUSCOPE and press a button, certifying that the round was completed. Unfortunately, sometimes Officers do not complete a 30-minute round or exceed the 40-minute threshold. TRUSCOPE also documents from what location, terminal the rounds are logged." MR. MR. That'iliiiit. is aware of at least two terminals located in the SHU. The only way to determine if a 30-minute round was physically completed is to check the video surveillance footage." MR. That is correct. MR. : "There are two Correctional Officers assigned to the SHU on 194 1 morning watch, at midnight. SHU One and SHU 2 Two. SHU Two is responsible for completing 3 rounds." They're both technically responsible. 4 Correct? 5 MR. Right. MR. : And so, is the SHU Two 7 usually the Officer-in-Charge? 8 MR. : Right. So, basically what 9 would have happened is, they're supposed to, 10 you know, because one has the key. So, I do a 11 round, I come back, then you do a round. Same 12 thing wheiliiiiiiiithe count. 13 MR. : Now, is it the same thing 14 with counts and rounds, like -- 15 MR. : No, no, I'm sorry, with the 16 count. 17 MR. -- so, with a round, if 18 rounds aren't being conducted, does that also 19 mean that everybody in the Unit is to blame? 20 Not just -- 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. -- okay. 23 MR. Right, because -- 24 MR. So, it would be -- 25 MR. -- because it, in essence, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 afterhours, that Lieutenant should go up there and observe the count. MR. : No, but what I'm saying is, like, if a round is signed off on, by one person, but everybody in the Unit, nobody in the Unit did it, and not just the person who signed the round, but also everyone else is also responsible for that falsified round? MR. : Right. MR. • Okay. MR. : Everybody -- MR. : It's the same thing for counts? MR. : -- yeah, it don't matter. If you're on the roster, and you're assigned to that Unit, and a falsified document goes up, and you said, like, me and you count, I know we didn't count, but I sign that, and you sign it MR. MR. MR. you sign it, responsible? MR. : Right. No. You're going to No, what I'm saying is -- -- then we both -- -- what I'm saying is, if I don't sign it, but we're both 196 1 be responsible because you didn't sign it. But 2 if I said, if I didn't sign it, then I'm going 3 to tell you why. I said, we didn't do the 4 count. I'm oin to put a memo in. 5 MR. : So, what I'm -- 6 MR. : I'm going to let the 7 Lieutenant know. It's a big -- 8 MR. 9 MR. -- that's going to be a big 10 situation. 11 MR. I guess what I'm saying 12 is, like, all right, so, in these count slips 13 specificall ., there's two -- 14 MR. : Two signatures. 15 MR. -- two signatures. 16 MR. Correct. 17 MR. But there's four people 18 working. 19 MR. Right. So, whoever -- 20 MR. • So, are the other two 21 people that aren't working, if they didn't 22 report it -- 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. • -- they're also 25 responsible? EFTA00111878 197 198 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : All right. Okay. 3 MR. And then, on the morning 4 watch, there's onl two people in the unit. 5 MR. • Right. 6 MR. : So, they're both complicit. 7 MR. : And I know you said bad 8 count, Officer should come down. How often 9 should - I mean, a Lieutenant should come down 10 - how often should Lieutenants be observing 11 counts? 12 MR. : Okay. Okay. 13 MR. • In the SHU. Let's talk 14 about specifically for the SHU. 15 MR. : Well, in the SHU? In the SHU, 16 a Lieutenant should have been monitoring that - 17 I believe that Ten South count. 18 MR. : Ten South. What about, 19 like, wheiiiiiitein was, in regular SHU? 20 MR. : Well, no, but we didn't 21 implement that until after the Epstein 22 incident. 23 MR. : All right. So, up to 24 August 10th, Lieutenants were not observing 25 counts -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. : -- they were simply taking the count MR. : Counting in Control. MR. -- in the Control Room. Okay. MR. : That is Control. That is correct. MR. Okay. ' was aware that the camera system in the SHU was down. He left early on Thursday, when the discussion about the camera system would have occurred. Mr. -", what is Mr. first name? MR. : I can't remember his first name. MR. Now, is he, like, a C.O., though? Or like -- MR. • No. He would be -- MR. • -- a BOP employee? MR. : -- he's COMTECH (Phonetic Sp. *00:52:39iiIIIIIIII MR. : COMTECH, but a BOP employee? MR. : Yes. 199 1 MR. r: "The camera technician 2 notified that he was worliigon the 3 system earlier that week, but did not 4 know specifics and was not informed that the 5 cameras were not functioning. Since the -", 6 so, you didn't know that any of the TRU cameras 7 may have been out? 8 MR. No. M 9 MR. : Okay. "Since the -", and 10 who would have been - was he the one 11 responsible for that? 12 MR. : Yes. So -. 13 MR. So, if he's notified that 14 the camera is now out, how soon thereafter 15 should heliiiiihat up and running? 16 MR. : No. If he was aware that the 17 camera system was down and was not working, he 18 should have contacted me, and then, I would 19 immediately contact the AW and the Warden 20 because -- 21 MR. • And in this instance -- 22 MR. -- that's a Security 23 situation. 24 MR. -- so, in this instance, 25 he didn't do that? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 MR. M.o. MR. : All right. And would anyone else have known that a SHU camera was down? MR. (Phonetic Sp. *00:53:26 ii MR. IIIIIIII • ? And who is R. : He would be the General Foreman. MR. MR. • Okay. Over Facilities. MR. : So, those two people would have been the ones that knew this camera is out, and they should have notified you? : Yeah. And they did not? MR. MR. MR. No. MR. Okay. Do you know, at this point - and I'm not talking about at the time, but now - do you know what was down and for how lon ? MR. : I don't know. MR. No? Okay. MR. : I can't remember. I don't EFTA00111879 201 1 even - that's - I don't remember. 2 MR. : Do you know if a camera 3 in the SHU was ever down? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. Okay. What camera? 6 MR. : I know that there were issues 7 with the cameras because we had done a program 8 review before then, and there was cameras down 9 in Ten South. So, we had got those fixed. You 10 know, in the 11 MR. Mm-hmm. 12 MR. -- in the individual cells. 13 MR. Yup. 14 MR. : And then, there was a camera 15 system that was down because I believe they was 16 doing some type of maintenance on the ranges, 17 or something like that, that everyone was aware 18 of. That's all I can remember. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And I don't remember 21 specifics and timeframes, but -. 22 MR. : All right. But you don't 23 know specifically if, like, for instance, the 24 range that Epstein was on, that camera was out 25 or not? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 MR. : That, I don't know that for - MR. • You're not sure? MR. -- yeah, no. MR. : Oka . But again, if it was, it would have been and - what did you say the last name was? ? MR. Christopher MR. And how do you spell that last name? MR. MR. time? MR. MR. Perfect. MR. MR. Okay. Thank you. MR. : lust had a quick question. Who was that conversation about, the discussion? You mentioned there was a discussion -- MR. : Mr. MR. : -- no, you -- MR. : You say -. MR. : -- when that discussion would Can you say that one more 203 1 have happened. 2 MR. . Oh. 3 MR. : Right? I think that's the 4 date of (Indiscernible *00:55:07). 5 MR. : Well, no, it says, "Mr. 6 , the Camera Technician, notified 7 that he was working on the system earlier that 8 week." He's saying that he left early 9 Thursday, when the discussion about the camera 10 system would have occurred. 11 MR. : Would have. So, he should 12 known -- 13 MR. If there was a 14 conversation. But you don't know that there 15 was? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : Okay. Sorry. 18 MR. : Because, like, in close out, 19 or if there was something with the Warden that 20 day, normally on Thursdays, at times, you know, 21 it was for my - I have a disease. So, I would 22 go for blood work on Thursdays, when I could, 23 if an institution emergency, you know, but 24 normally, on Thursday, I would leave early on 25 Thursdays. I would take a half a day. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 MR. : Okay. MR. : To go to my medical appointments. So, if there was a meeting that was convened about the camera systems, I wasn't present at that meeting. MR. : But whatever -- MR. : However, I know that a camera project was going on during that time, which Mr. was responsible for installing the new - I don't know what - I can't remembering what you call it - but it's a system, because our system was antiquated, so they was doing camera re airs. So -- MR. • Okay. MR. • -- there was certain cameras down, in certain areas of the institution. But he was actively working on that. MR. Okay. MR. : So. MR. So, if there was a meeting, that you are not aware of, on Thursday, who would have been present for it? MR. : For a meeting with the Warden? MR. It would have been with EFTA00111880 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2os the Warden? MR. : Yeah. It would have been - I mean, the Warden would have known if someone had a meeting about the camera system being down, and then, probably the Facilities Manager, which is IIIIII. It would have been the AW of Custod at that time, which would have been Ms. . And of course, it would have been the Warden. MR. : Didn't ou sa it was actually somebody else? was no longer the custody? MR. : Ms. IIII. Ms. was there, but she had just got there. So -- MR. Okay. MR. -- she was over another discipline. So, that would have been the meeting with the executive staff. MR. Okay. So, it was the executive staff meeting. Would that meeting also have taken place if the cameras are still down on Friday? Would it have taken place on Friday, as well? MR. : That would have been Friday, as well. 206 1 MR. But you weren't involved 2 with a meetin like that? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : And you don't know of a 5 meeting talon place? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. • Okay. Would it have 8 taken place every day that the camera was down, 9 or just the first day? 10 MR. : There would have been an 11 update because the person that falls under 12 that, the contact, is . So, the AW over 13 Facilities would have wanted an update, weekly 14 report, as well as the Captain. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Because that's a Security 17 issue. So, we would have wanted - but the 18 camera system was down because of - I think it 19 was some routine maintenance that they was 20 doing anywa 21 MR. • Okay. 22 MR. So -. 23 MR. • Now, would any 24 Lieutenants or SHU staff have known that the 25 camera was down? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 MR. : Some - I mean, they don't have the abilit to monitor. MR. • Right. MR. : But, you know, of course, the ones in Ten South, you know -- MR. Yeah, where they are live monitorin, MR. : Yeah. The live monitoring. So, of course. MR. And do you know - and you don't know, though, even to this date, if a camera was, in fact, down? MR. MR. MR. MR. I was just goi recording, do live monitor MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : I can't remember. In fact? : I don't know. Okay. No. That's fine. ng to ask, even if it wasn't you know if it was, like, being a or anything like that -- : Right. -- or it could have been. : Yeah. • But you're unaware? : I'm unaware. Okay. Okay. So, "After 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 receiving the phone call from IIII on the morning of Saturday, August 10 2019 notified Associate Warden , who informed the Warden. also attempted to call Institution Duty Officer, Nathaniel MR. Yup. MR. To Chaplin, and in the building, to get more information." What does that meaniiiiiiIn the building"? Do you know? MR. : So, basically, you know, it was just -- MR. Like, the main number? MR. M.- it was just a bunch of, : you know, people that we tried to notify, I tried to notify. So, I think I notified Ms. of course. She notifies the Warden. I notified the IDO. I said, hey, because inmate death, they needed me coming into the institution, because that's one of their off times, so they needed to be making a - because they're going to be responsible for making certain calls to the Region. I notified the Chaplin, because Chaplin made sure, (Indiscernible *00:59:19) also, I believe I EFTA00111881 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 informed them to call (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:2i t ie.ch was the Executive Assistant. I think or I may have called Mr. Johnson, the Attorney, for MCC. MR. • Okay. MR. And I'm trying to think who else. MR. No, that's fine. MR. Was there. MR. : And it says that, "He went to the MCC, arriving before 8:00 a.m., approximatel ." MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : "Upon arrival, screened in and retrieved his gear from the third floor. He went to the SHU and signed the logbook. He gathered any records pertaining to Epstein, including the 30-minute round logbook, the Attorney conference logbook, count slips, and E-ls." What are E-ls? MR. here. MR. MR. : So, all this stuff right • Okay. : So, you basically, I walk through the building, I know the protocol, 210 1 because what happens is, these things will come 2 up missin then ou have no evidence. 3 MR. Okay. 4 MR. So, I secured count slips, 5 the E-ls. I went to SHU. I got all of the 6 logbooks that I knew where Epstein had been. I 7 grabbed those logbooks. I went to SHU. I took 8 his inmate SHU file from the Special Housing, 9 plus all of the round sheets (Indiscernible 10 *01:00:34iiIIIIIIII 11 MR. : This actually says "He 12 could not locate Epstein's inmate file." Do 13 you remember that? 14 MR. : It was a file, but it had 15 limited stuff in there. 16 MR. Okay. 17 MR. ro, his actual file, yeah, it : 18 had his picture, had a couple things on there, 19 but it wasn't an in it. 20 MR. : So, when this says, "Not 21 locate a file," you located the file, it was 22 just a -- 23 MR. : It was empty. 24 MR. -- it was empty. And is 25 that abnormal? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. MR. : No. It is not normal. . Oh, it's not normal? It's not normal. No. 211 MR. . And do you think that somebody removed things from it? MR. : No, I'm not going to make that accusation. I don't know. I would just say, that's not a normal instances, that being working as a former OIC, being a Correctional Officer, and all of that stuff, that's not normal. MR. What stuff is usually in there? MR. : I can tell you, it would be his - all of the intake screening stuff that we do on the inmates, the expectations, the cell assignment things that the inmate is supposed to sign, the clothing issue forms. It would be 292s in there. It would be a - the SROs. It would also be the Psychology, where Psychology comes to see these guys, that those notes should be laced in there. MR. : And none of that was in there? MR. : None of that was in there. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 MR. And where is that file located? MR. in the OIC, ri MR. MR. MR. : It's supposed to be located ht there -- Okay. -- in the OIC. When you say "The OIC," is that the SHU, where the OIC sits? MR. ..(es. MR. : And had access to that? MR. Yes. MR. And file before that time? MR. : I would - no. MR. Did you ever locate it after that time? MR. : No. MR. So, it's likely that someone took documents out? If they should been in there and they're not in there, is MR. ..orrect. MR. : -- so, someone likely - I'm not saying -- so, anyone could have had you ever seen the have that EFTA00111882 213 214 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. Yeah. MR. : -- who did it, but someone likel y did? MR. : In my belief, yes, those documents were taken. MR. : And can you think of a reason wh the would have been taken? MR. : I don't know, sir. MR. : All right. But you had never seen them before? MR. MR. MR. purview to MR. MR. MR. about that? MR. Lieutenant. MR. MR. Lieutenant MR. MR. . No, sir. That was And who would be the -. . -- that wouldn't be my through, to audit those files. : Who would be -- That's the -. -- the person to ask : That would have been the • So, Lieutenant M? Lieutenant IIII. Or the Okay. -- he would have been the one 1 that would have audited those files. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. Because they do the SROs. 4 MR. And did you ask him where 5 the file 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 knowledge. 10 MR. All right. So, he 11 claimed he doesn't know -- 12 MR. Right. 13 MR. -- anything about it. 14 MR. Because -. 15 MR. Did he ever say he looked 16 at the file before? 17 MR. : No. No. I don't remember 18 him saying that. But when I called him that 19 Saturday, because I had conversations with 20 Lieutenant on that Saturday and that 21 Sunday, because he was supposed to come to work 22 that Sunday. So, once he found out about the 23 situation with Epstein, because I had called 24 him, and I said, hey, man, where is his inmate 25 file? What are you talking about? I said, his Of course. I called him. And what did he say? : He didn't know. He had no 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 SHU file is not up there. X, Y, Z. So, I informed him of what happened. Sunday, I get a call that he broke his leg. And then, Lieutenant was out for, like, six months. MR. • And did he really break his leg? MR. I wouldn't know. MR. . Is there any reason to believe, or had you heard that he actually didn't? MR. : Again, he was supposed to be in that training, like I said, right? That - what do you call it? -- MR. • I can look it up. MR. -- when you go for reserves training MR. Oh, yeah. MR. What you do -- MR. • Correct. MR. -- you do it every month. MR. • Yup. He was in military MR. MR. MR. W : ight? -- training. Because of his military 216 1 training. So, he tells me they're doing the PT 2 that next day, which was Sunday, he broke his 3 leg. 4 MR. : Did he ever provide any 5 kind of -- 6 MR. Or he injured his leg. 7 MR. : -- did he ever provide 8 any documentation? 9 MR. : Hmm-mm. 10 MR. : No? 11 MR. : Hmm. He did provide 12 something, but it was from a doctor. I mean, 13 and that was sent through - he provided 14 documentaiiiiilliii-- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. I can't - I don't - I'm 17 not a doctor - so, I can't tell you what it is, 18 and I'm not going to call the doctor to verify 19 if that was the situation, but basically, it 20 said that he had a substantial leg injury that 21 prevented him from coming to work. 22 MR. : So, have you had any 23 conversations with him since? 24 MR. : Oh, he came back - so then, 25 so IIII went out in August - September, EFTA00111883 217 1 October, November, December - I think he came 2 back either December or January. 3 MR. Of 2019? 4 MR. Of 2020. 5 MR. Or 2020. 6 MR. Of 2020. 7 MR. Okay. 8 MR. Somewhere in that timeframe. 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. : So, he came back. And he 11 went back u to SHU as the OIC. 12 MR. : And ever any 13 conversations about this matter? 14 MR. : I had discussed it with him 15 on the phone twice. 16 MR. And tell me about those 17 discussions. 18 MR. : Those discussion. So, 19 basically, I asked him about the inmate file. 20 I had talked to him about, that Sunday, he 21 alerted me that he was injured. When he came 22 back, we had discussions that the staff, when 23 he would - me and were -190-I would 24 say out of all the Lieutenants - me and IIII, 25 we spoke a lot. I thought very highly of him. 218 1 And he would talk, and he was saying that he 2 was having difficulties with the staff, and his 3 other peers, because he, you know, the 4 appearance was that he faked the injury, and -- 5 MR. : Oh, so there was rumor -- 6 MR. and not to be a part of 7 what everybody else was going through, during 8 that Epstein situation. So, he was getting it 9 from the Lieutenants, and he was also getting 10 it from the line staff. 11 MR. : Okay. So, on him, is 12 there anything that you know - I know he wasn't 13 there those days - but if there's anything 14 there that he did wrong? 15 MR. : Hmm. What - being 16 wrong, I'm not going to say he did something 17 wrong or purposeful, you know, to say that, you 18 know, to cause the death of inmate Epstein. Of 19 course not. I'm not going to say that. 20 MR. Yeah, and I'm not saying 21 that. I'm just saying -- 22 MR. : But I'm saying -- 23 MR. -- it's, like -. 24 MR. -- this is, in my opinion, ifl 25 I'm a third party, if I'm a third party - and 219 1 I'm going to be honest - if I'm a third party, 2 looking at this, somebody would say, I'm wrong. 3 They would say, you failed to supervise your 4 staff. You should have been auditing all of 5 the paperwork. You should have been more 6 responsive, or you should have been more 7 responsible, and been in the unit more. You 8 should have done more rounds. You should have 9 did more training. You understand what I'm 10 saying? 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : But guess what? That's not my 13 purview. As the Captain, Security, I did this, 14 this, that, and the third. But everybody has a 15 job to do in a rison. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : The Officers have a job, to 18 count, maintain accountability, for the inmate 19 population. The Lieutenants all oversee the 20 staff, and make sure they're doing their jobs 21 right. And then, ultimately, me as the 22 Captain, over the Lieutenants, I have to 23 reassure that they're doing their jobs right. 24 But when you go back and you start going 25 through fine tooth combingthrough documents 220 1 that you thinking that, you know, your staff 2 are doing the right thing, and now you finding 3 out that people are fudging documents, and 4 creating documents that - or counting inmates 5 that wasn't in the institution. 6 MR. : Well, in this instance, 7 it sounds like somebody removed -- 8 MR. : And removed -- 9 MR. : -- files. 10 MR. : -- for doing all of these 11 things that, after the fact, you're, like, I 12 can't believe this is happening. 13 MR. : So, if someone removed 14 files, though, I'm assuming if they're trying 15 to cover something up, it would have happened 16 on, like, the 10th, the 9th or the 10th. 17 MR. : It would have b been -- 18 MR. Correct? 19 MR. -- the 10th, as soon as they 20 found outlining, away. 21 MR. : And well, did a lot of 22 people have access to that room, at that time? 23 MR. : It was - at that time - it 24 would have been - and it's not a room. You're 25 talking about for -- EFTA00111884 221 222 1 MR. : Wherever these -- 2 MR. : -- Epstein? 3 MR. : -- wherever this file was 4 located. 5 MR. That file. It's, like 6 MR. : (Indiscernible -- 7 *01:08:42iiiiii 8 MR. : -- when you come into the 9 unit, you walk into the unit. 10 MR. All right. This is a 11 good transition. 12 MR. All right. 13 MR. I believe that this is a 14 map of the SHU. 15 MR. Right. 16 MR. Can you tell me what 17 we're looking at here? Where are the staff 18 located, and where would this file be? And 19 then, where would Epstein's cell be, if you 20 know? My understanding is that his cell was the 21 closest to them, and approximately 15 feet 22 away. 23 24 MR. ..hit. MR. : But that's without ever 25 putting eyes on it. 1 MR. : Right. All right. 2 MR. Aside from video. 3 MR. : So, the office. Bird cage. 4 Office. I'm trying to figure out which one is 5 the entrance into the unit. 6 MR. : Speaking of entrance into 7 the Unit, my understanding is that there are 8 two ways - two doors that you've got to go 9 through. One is the Control -- 10 MR. Yeah. 11 MR. : -- accesses, and then, 12 the interior is what the SHU staff -- 13 MR. Yes. 14 MR. : -- and how do they open 15 it from the SHU staff? Is it -- 16 MR. : By a key. 17 MR. -- by a key? 18 MR. By a key. 19 MR. And what is the key 20 called? Is it a gate key? 21 MR. It's . a prison key. 22 MR. : Oh, just a prison key. 23 It's not 2_1pLial name? 24 MR. 'I'll': Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. 25 *01:09:52). 223 1 MR. Excuse me? 2 MR. : It's a Folger Adams key. 3 MR. • Okay. 4 MR. : It's a prison key. 5 MR. But it's not, like, a 6 special name that you call it in the SHU? 7 MR. : No. It's the OIA number 8 one's keys. 9 MR. Okay. But so, they 10 physically have to open the - in order to get 11 anyone in or out of the SHU - they physically 12 have to o en the -- 13 MR. : After they open it. 14 MR. • -- and there's only one 15 way in and out? 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. Okay. 18 MR. : No, but I mean, yeah. Yes. 19 Precisely. I'm trying to figure out - even 20 this is orientation of me looking at this - is 21 I'm trying to figure out because I know this is 22 - this is the floor. 23 MR. : I'm assuming there's a -- 24 MR. : There's your stairs. So, I'm 25 trying to figure out, this is L. Yeah, that's 224 1 L. Then you've got I. So, he was on L-tier, 2 right? 3 MR. Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : So, L-tier, it wouldn't be 5 like this. And then, you would have had the 6 Officer Station, which, this would have been 7 the Officer Station. And that's going to the 8 Officer Station. There would have been a file 9 cabinet because the desks go around like so. 10 MR. : Have you ever seen the video 11 of the SHU? Where the Officer Station is. 12 MR. : You're talking about when the 13 staff -- 14 MR. : The camera. The camera. 15 MR. : -- so, that camera is by the 16 27 door, I believe. And that shines from where 17 the entrance of ZB, of -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- that shines down like 20 that. 21 MR. : Is that -- 22 MR. : And then, L-tier is right 23 here. 24 MR. : -- yeah. Is that pointed 25 right behind the desk, to the left of the desk? EFTA00111885 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 225 MR. : Yeah. MR. : Okay. That's what you pointed at? MR. : Yeah. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, that's what I was showing you. So, that camera - in essence - that camera would be right there. MR. : So, it would be clearly showing that file cabinet, if we reviewed that camera? MR. : Yup. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, that file cabinet sat right behind the desk. So, hopefully that's better orientation. And then, the cell, I think is L-tier, that Jeffrey Epstein was assigned to was 16. MR. : When you say "assigned to MR. Or something like that. MR. : -- it sounds like, was he not in that cell? MR. : He wasn't in the right cell. He was not there. 1 MR. 2 cell than 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 this. So, 6 that he was ever 226 He was in a different assigned? You didn't know that? . No. Well, tell me about where -? So, is this the first time not in the right cell? 7 MR. : He was not in the right cell, 8 sir. After we went back and we started looking 9 at the Sentry paperwork and all that stuff, 10 that inmate was not in the right cell for six 11 days. So that mean -- 12 MR. • For six days, he was in 13 the wrong -- 14 MR. : -- so, basically, he was 15 assigned to this cell, he died in this cell. 16 MR. : But for six days, he was 17 going to the wrong cell? So, it wasn't, like, 18 just the one day he was found dead? 19 MR. : Right. So, they had him 20 quartered over here, but it was inmates already 21 over there. And then, you understand what I'm 22 saying? But he was found in this cell. 23 MR. I don't understand when 24 you say -- 25 MR. : Wait. Let's point to the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 cell. Because I just want to get an idea. MR. : But I think it's L-. I think he was found on L-tier. Right? Do you know that? MR. reah. That's my : That's my understanding. MR. understanding. too. MR. MR. MR. • -- is L-tier. : L-tier. • Again, I don't know the layout. There's got to be somewhere where it says it on this. MR. : I think it -. MR. : Because that's G. Yeah. That, it should be J and L. So, when you come up the steps, I think this was supposed to be - that's his assignment, this cell over here, but he was found in one of these cells over here. MR. : Now, do you know why? Did you ask tiiiiiiestion? MR. : Because what they were doing consistently is, is that when we do cell rotations, which is supposed to be done between every 30 1.. ay? MR. : Mm-hmm. 228 1 MR. : They may have moved the 2 inmates, but they weren't changing the PP-34 3 transaction in Sentry. 4 MR. All right. So, what -. 5 MR. ro, the inmates were moved, 6 right? Physically, but the Sentry paperwork 7 would never be done. 8 MR. : So, he was supposed to be 9 moved, they just didn't follow with what their 10 necessaryliiiiiwork? 11 MR. : No. He was in this cell. 12 They must have moved him in Sentry. They must 13 have moved him, right? But he - when the Sentry 14 assignment came up - it showed that he was 15 still remained assigned to that cell, instead 16 of him bein h sically found in this cell. 17 MR. : But what I'm saying is, 18 like, it sounds, like, they were supposed to 19 move him, they just never did the paperwork to 20 say that he was moved? 21 MR. ..orrect. 22 MR. : Okay. So, it's not, 23 like, I mean, I guess they technically put him 24 in the wrong cell because he wasn't technically 25 assigned to that, but the move was supposed to EFTA00111886 229 1 happen, they just didn't follow with the 2 administrative part of it. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : Okay. So -- 5 MR. : So, you -. 6 MR. : -- so, aside from the 7 administrative failure, is there any other 8 suspicion about the fact that he wasn't in the 9 assigned cell? 10 MR. : It was, and also, the 11 suspicion was, why did he have so much linen? 12 And so many t-shirts, and so many blankets. 13 No. We're taught you get one blanket, maybe 14 two. 15 MR. And what -. 16 MR. : You get one, two, until you 17 get two t-shirts, two boxers, two pairs of 18 socks. 19 MR. Was that question asked? 20 I mean, did you ask, like, IIII, or any of the 21 SHU staff since then? 22 MR. : Of course. 23 MR. : And what did they say? 24 MR. : I mean, they're going to be, 25 like, I don't - how would I know? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 230 MR. : Who was responsible? MR. : But you know what? That happens all the time, sir. Because I will tell you, I could clean out SHU. I've done it. And they could say, I've went up there physically, supervisors going in there, cleaning out the SHU. I think I did it three or four times. Well, and then, less than a week, I could go do rounds, and inmates got all the stuff back. MR. : Who was responsible for giving it to them? : The staff because staff have MR. the keys. MR. And they just say, you need more here you go? MR. 1.1ere you go. MR. : Well, would the staff do it, or would the Lieutenant do it, or -? MR. : I don't think Lieutenants would do it. MR. MR. MR. MR. hear an inmate crying. • So, the -- It's more of a staff. • -- okay. : Because they don't want to 231 1 MR. Now, is -. 2 MR. : Kicking on the door. 3 MR. : Is having those extra 4 linens, and those extra, you know, boxers or 5 whatever, is that a security issue? 6 MR. 7 MR. • And why is that a 8 security issue? 9 MR. : Because ultimately, that 10 gives the inmates the materials to be able to 11 make homemade fashioned and improvised nooses. 12 MR. Okay. 13 MR. air they'll build a TT, and : 14 use it as escape paraphernalia, just like they 15 did in Chicago. Tie that stuff together, they 16 broke out the window, and the inmate had a 17 rope. That's why we don't give inmates excess 18 clothing. 19 MR. : Okay. Now, as far as 20 this file, though, you never found out where 21 those -- 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : -- documents went? 24 MR. : I couldn't find them. 25 MR. : Okay. And when we were Yes. 232 1 saying people that had access to this room, was 2 it just a flood of people at that point, coming 3 out? 4 MR. : Anybody that - the people who 5 would be most would know about those files 6 would be the SHU staff. 7 MR. • The SHU staff. 8 MR. And the Lieutenants. 9 MR. Okay. 10 MR. Of course. 11 MR. And what would be in 12 those files that possibly people wouldn't want 13 people to see? 14 MR. : I mean, the only thing, I 15 mean, that would be in there, like I said, 16 292s, because you're supposed to do them every 17 day. 18 MR. And what are 292s? 19 MR. ..92s basically are, it shows : 20 the inmates activities in the unit, daily. It 21 talks about if the inmate - any time the inmate 22 is out of the SHU time, out of cell time, it's 23 annotated on the 292. When the inmate showers, 24 when the inmate exercises, when the inmate 25 eats. Every meal. EFTA00111887 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. would it be -- MR. MR. 233 Now, in your opinion, For a 24-hour period. -- would these documents be missing because they were potentially falsified, or because they might show something about the death of Epstein? MR. : It would show if he wasn't taking meals. And they didn't report it. It would show if the inmate wasn't afforded any outside recreation time. Or any out of cell time. But we know he wasn't getting that because he was oing to Attorney conference. MR. : Okay. MR. : But those forms, no, they wouldn't show that the inmate, you know, all of that stuff is just administrative stuff that we track for ever MR. : That's why I'm just trying to figure out what would be the purpose of taking those files? MR. : Is there a possibility the file was never updated? MR. : I don't believe that. MR. : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 MR. And who would be updating the files? Just anybody in SHU? MR. : That would be the OIC. Every Sunday. You're printing out all the 292s, then you put them in the file. MR. : So, on Sundays. Is it one person that typically -? MR. : The OICs. Normally, the OIC on morning watch would do that. They would print out all of the 292s, and they would put them all in each file. MR. : Do you know, at this time, around the August 9th and August 10th, who would have been responsible for those files, and printing those out, and putting them in? MR. : That would have been either the - that would have probably been the SHU staff - it would have been either, it would probably be Tova Noel. MR. Noel would have been? MR. Noel she was assigned as : the - that would have been one of the responsibilities of the SHU One. But that would have been on Sunday. 235 1 MR. Yeah. Sunday. That's 2 what I'm saying. Do you know, up until this 3 point, though? Like, so, if the file is gone, 4 he's now there for, what? Almost two months. 5 MR. M(Indiscernible *01:19:43). 6 MR. : Would it be one person 7 responsible or -- 8 MR. Right. 9 MR. • -- whoever is there on 10 Sunday? 11 MR. : She wouldn't have known. So, 12 I mean, she wouldn't have - that's something, 13 unless you're the full-time SHU OIC, that you 14 would be co nizant of. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. She wouldn't know that. 17 MR. So, there's that. 18 MR. : Question for you. If he was 19 put on suicide watch, or psych observation, 20 would that file be moved with him? 21 MR. : When the inmate goes on 22 suicide watch, they create another 292 because 23 he's not in the unit. So, that 292 goes down 24 with - and is put on the door. Right? So, that 25 copy of that 292, yeah, that's supposed to go 236 1 to psychology, and the copy is supposed to go 2 back to Correctional Services, to put in his 3 file, to be maintained that, yeah, he was on 4 suicide watch. This would happen. You know, 5 you tell the story. So, yeah. Yeah. It would 6 - all of that information would be in there. 7 MR. : No. But I'm just asking, is 8 it possible it went to psych observation or 9 wherever that unit is, and never made it back? 10 MR. It's . a possibility. 11 MR. : But then, he's made there 12 since - but it should - like you were saying - 13 it should have been constantly updated. So, 14 from July 30th through August 9th or 10th, 15 there should still be extra stuff in there. 16 Correct? 17 MR. Mm-hmm. 18 MR. Okay. 19 MR. All right. So, let's 20 keep going here. " expressed to 21 that the staff admitted to her they did not 22 complete rounds, the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 23 counts." And that, so, and that's all they 24 admitted to, was those two? Not the ones prior 25 to that? EFTA00111888 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 MR. : Right. So, when I talked to on the phone, that's what he told me on the phone. MR. Okay. MR. : He said, hey, Cap, the staff told me the didn't do the rounds. MR. • All right. MR. : And I said, okay. MR. And that, "Officer Thomas entered Epstein's cell without supervision." Now, what does that mean? MR. : That means that any time - especially in the Special Housing Unit - any time that cell, it should have been - especially after hours - a Supervisor should have beeniiiiiiiiii MR. : When he went in to do the life-savin measures, right? MR. : Yup. MR. : Now, do you know if - was Thomas and Noel, were they together, and he walked ins_gf_as she, like, down the range? MR. IIIIII: I believe she was on the down, she was off the tier, and he probably went to go do - doing the breakfast carts, and 238 1 by the time he comes down the tier, and he 2 comes through - so, that means he didn't do a 3 round, because he would have saw him. Right? 4 So, that means he's going around, because 5 that's how feed, as soon as we come on, we 6 don't go this way. We go this way. So, that 7 cell that Epstein was found in, I think it's, 8 like, the second from the in. And so, it's, 9 like, the last cell, and then he was in that 10 next cell. Right? So, they come around the 11 whole area, and when he get to his cell, you 12 observe the inmate unresponsive. So, what 13 you're supposed to do is, you call Control. 14 Control, hey, I've got an unresponsive inmate. 15 Send staff to SHU. Or I've got an unresponsive 16 inmate, please state the medical emergency, 17 send someone to SHU. to Ops, hey, I 18 need you come to the Special Housing Unit. 19 Boom. You come up there. You've got a staff 20 because you don't know if it's a rouse. You 21 just popped down the door and just go in there. 22 You're puiiiiiiiiiiself in jeopardy. 23 MR. : Now, does this create 24 suspicion for you, the fact that he went in 25 there by himself? 239 1 MR. : I've seen a lot of stuff at 2 MCC, as far as with security protocols. I've 3 written staff up for violation of security 4 protocols. That instance right there, what he 5 did, wouldn't be uncommon. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Because you try to tell 8 people how to react in an emergency situation, 9 and guess what? Everybody is not going to say 10 how they're going to react. But we do tell 11 them, if you're in the Special Housing Unit, 12 you need to wait until a Supervisor comes on 13 the scene before ou pop a door in SHU. 14 MR. • Now, do you know how -- 15 MR. Period. 16 MR. • -- he was found? Was he 17 hanging? -- 18 MR. : I don't know how he was 19 found. 20 MR. -- was he on the floor? 21 No? 22 MR. : Don't know. I didn't read 23 the autops re ort. I don't know. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I only know what the news had 240 1 reported. 2 MR. Okay. It says, "Epstein 3 was placed on the floor to administer life- 4 saving efforts," and that's why I asked, I 5 didn't know if he was still hanging -- 6 MR. : I don't know. 7 MR. • -- he took them off. All 8 ri ht. " informed Associate Warden 9 about what Officers Noel and 10 Thomas admitted to IIII. had concerns 11 about the whereabouts of Epstein's cell mate. 12 Some of his staff were under the impression 13 that Reyes was released from the SHU, which 14 later confirmed was not true." Was not 15 true or was true? You confirmed that -? 16 MR. : He wasn't released from SHU. 17 He wasn't released from SHU. 18 MR. He was released? 19 MR. He was released from court. 20 MR. Oh, okay. 21 MR. He wasn't released from the 22 institution. Usually, it's from court. 23 MR. : Oh, okay. So, what 24 they're trying to say here is that you guys 25 didn't release him. He went to court, and they EFTA00111889 241 1 released him, he never -- 2 MR. : That's right. 3 MR. • -- he never came back. 4 MR. : He never came back. 5 MR. : Okay. But he was 6 released from custody? 7 MR. : Yes. He was released in 8 custody when he went to court -- 9 MR. : Gotcha. 10 MR. : -- that day. 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 12 worded weird. "The purpose of the 3:00 and the 13 5:00 a.m. count is to physically count and 14 confirm each person is in their cell. There 15 were no entries of counts in TRUSCOPE the 16 entire night. If technology is down, the 17 Correctional Officers also have the option to 18 document the count on a hard copy form. 19 Although there are no electronic records of 20 counts, hard copies must have been retained." 21 MR. That is correct. 22 MR. : Is it odd that they 23 didn't enter it into the TRUSCOPE that night? 24 MR. : No, it's not odd. Because I 25 told you, on occasion, the staff member would 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 242 say, oh, I don't have access to TRUSCOPE, but however, they are given hard copies of the count slip, which continues for the 24-hour period. MR. MR. Right. Yeah. : So, you're continuing to do your rounds. And then, at the end of the rounds, at the end of the week, this is how it's supposed to happen. Because I actually put this in place, because that was one of the vitals that we had during our program review, which we got a hit on. At the end of the week, the Lieutenant is supposed to get them, and he will audit them, to make every sure all of your rounds was conducted in the 40-minutes irregular. If it's not, that staff member is identified, and then, they're given counseling. So, we're trying to stop staff, you know, we try to encourage staff to do the right thing, but if they're not, we're trying to catch it on our level, before it gets reported out. So, even then, you know, the Lieutenants there was sign put up there that it wasn't getting done on a regular basis. MR. Mm-hmm. 243 1 MR. : When I input, when I - and 2 then, I have to counsel them, where is my stuff 3 weekly? So, I've counseled them. I've got 4 counseliniiiiiiiiiiat. 5 MR. : Did you ever counsel 6 either Thomas or Noel? 7 MR. : No. I don't know if I have a 8 counselin on them. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : No, but before this incident, 11 but no. 12 MR. : It says, "All inmate 13 phone calls in the SHU are monitored, and 14 inmates have limited access to "walls. 15 All calls should be recorded. was not 16 aware of any issues or complaints with Epstein, 17 related to hone calls. On Saturday, August 18 10, 2019, was told that Epstein made a 19 phone call at approximately 7:00 p.m. on the 20 evening of Friday, August 9, 2019. It is 21 uncommon to make an unrecorded phone call in 22 the SHU, and would advise against it 23 because calls should be surveilled. Inmates 24 can make a recorded phone call in the 25 Lieutenant's Office, where it is documented in 244 1 a monitored logbook. In the SHU, Correctional 2 Officers are not permitted to give inmate phone 3 calls, but a Unit Task Team member, or the 4 Chaplin can take the inmate to the Lieutenant's 5 Office and make a call. is not briefed 6 on phone calls in the SHU generally." But in 7 this case, you said that you did advise 8 that he could. And where did the call take 9 place? 10 MR. : Well, because I know between 11 that timeilliiikillinstalled a jack. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. rn SHU, in order to do the 14 outgoing calls. So, they could actually do 15 those calls in SHU. Though, before the 16 Chaplin, of course. So, if you had a SHU 17 inmate, he didn't have to bring the inmate all 18 the way down to the Lieutenant's Office to do a 19 call. 20 MR. Okay. 21 MR. So, there was a jack up there 22 in the - I can't remember where it is. I'm 23 sorry. 24 MR. It's near the shower 25 room? EFTA00111890 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 245 MR. : Yeah. Something like that. But so, we actually had the ability to have that outgoing call capability for those inmates in SHU. Because you can't bring them down to the Lieutenant's Office. MR. Okay. MR. ro, you could do an outgoing : call capaiiiiiiiiiithe SHU. MR. : Okay. And so, you did approve that call, and then, just log it? MR. : Yes. MR. all that? MR. : Yes I did. And that was something that Mr. said, and Mr. was, actually, I believe he was the IDO. MR. IDO? MR. Officer. MR. : And what does that mean? MR. : That means is that every week, for a seven-day period, normally, people with a grades of just 12 and above, 12, 13s, : Okay. And take care of : And again, what is the The Institutional Duty 246 1 would be the Institutional - or 14s - would be 2 the Institutional Duty Officer. Right? So, 3 that means they go around, and they check all 4 of the institutional - that they're taking 5 calls after hours, from Correctional Services. 6 They're reporting certain stuff to the Region. 7 They're doing rounds in SHU. They're doing 8 rounds throughout the institution, in all the 9 areas of the institution, and the accumulated 10 report, which is given to the Warden for their 11 review, about the daily operations of the 12 institution during that week. Also, a part of 13 that is SHU rounds. You know, they make sure 14 that SHU rounds, everybody that's supposed to 15 do rounds within a week, you have to do them, 16 or you get notified, and then you notify that 17 Thursday or Friday, and you're supposed to go 18 do your rounds. By the close out. You only 19 have to do it there once a week. So, that's 20 just part of the duties. But they bring the 21 report, they create a report of the total 22 operations. Any incidents that occurred. The 23 counts in SHU, if they was bad. Anything that 24 was going on in Food Service, or if they 25 observed certain instances during the - in 247 1 general population that should be addressed by 2 the Unit Team or Correctional Services, and 3 stuff like that. And so, that's what they do. 4 MR. : Okay. And then, this 5 concludes, " wholeheartedly emphasized 6 that he and his staff at MCC did their best to 7 supervise, safeguard, and ensure the protection 8 of Epstein and all inmates effectively. His 9 staff is aware of the seriousness of the 10 investigation into Epstein's death." 11 MR. 11Right. 12 MR. : Now, as far as what I 13 just read you, I know it was over the course of 14 two hours, but - I mean, four hours - but is 15 there anything else you told the FBI or the OIG 16 that wasn't included in this report? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. And what was that 19 regarding? 20 MR. : I talked about that, when I, 21 it was brief in there, but I talked about 22 Lieutenant actions. Talked about 23 that, one) she didn't do physical rounds in the 24 unit because, as I said, I went into TRUSCOPE, 25 because I wanted to know, because I did all 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 this within the time that I got to the institution, I pulled up TRUSCOPE, and I can actually go in, and I get to see where they're logging in and doing rounds because once I pull up those reports, because the two I verify off of, I pull those reports up, I can show where the computer terminals are. And all of her rounds was done from the Lieutenant's Office. MR. MR. Okay. I thought - so -- Because you MR. - aside from the bad count, where she should have went - she should have, even with the bad count, she should have been there, observing an actual count? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. In the SHU? MR. Yeah. MR. And what count? MR. : No. No, no, no. What she should have done is then done rounds. MR. r: Oh. MR. : In the SHU that night. So, between 10:00 and 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. Well, any time after 12:00 a.m. EFTA00111891 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 249 to 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. There was no rounds. All of the rounds were done from the Lieutenant's Office. MR. : Well, if she did - I think we do believe that she did conduct a round at 4:00 a.m. MR. : Okay. MR. So, she actually physicall went into the SHU at 4:00 a.m. -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- and spoke with them. And then, potentially even came back, and checked in a little while later. UNKNOWN MALE: Dude, it's been a while. I got a little bus . MR. : Thank you, sir. And so, if she did that one time, at the 4:00 a.m., possibly another check-in ten or 15 minutes later, would that be sufficed for whatever her duty and responsibility was? MR. : Well, that means, if you sat there and you did all your rounds, so, I did all of my rounds at the computer office. MR. And never went -- MR. : In the computer 250 1 (Indiscernible *01:32:56). 2 MR. : -- and she never - she 3 was supposed to go to the Control Center, and 4 actually do the counts from there, right? 5 MR. : Well, you're supposed to take 6 - yeah - one of the counts. So, normally, we 7 would take the 3:45 count or the 5:00. Either 8 one. You could take one of the counts. It 9 don't matter which one you take. You've just 10 got to take one. The 12:00, the 3:00, or the 11 5:00. Right? You've got to take a count. 12 You've got to go through, go do a round in SHU. 13 A round in SHU. So, you have to go, actually, 14 go physically to the unit. And then, you're 15 supposed to do rounds throughout the entire 16 institution. So, if I'm at the Lieutenant's 17 desk, and I say that all my rounds was done 18 from this one terminal, because you're actually 19 supposed to go in, I provide it in card 20 readers. 21 MR. : So, they're supposed to - 22 when they do a round there - so, they're 23 supposed to lo it in from the unit? 24 MR. : From that terminal. 25 MR. : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 251 MR. : So, that means they can go on a floor, and they don't have to go log into both computers on the floor, as long as you log into one on the floor, you're good. That's the policy. MR. : And is that just to show that they are physically there, and they're not MR. : Yeah. MR. • -- falsifying the rounds? MR. There is. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, you just can't just sit at the desk aLid say, I did all the rounds. MR. 'I'll': I'm going to investigate the (Indiscernible *01:34:05) of what the Lieutenant rounds entails. MR. : You can ask again, if you want. Co ahead. (Indiscernible *01:34:09). MR. : I don't remember if you did. I apologize if you answered it already. When a Lieutenant has to do a round in a - let's say any tier - and let's say the SHU, what does that entail? What (Indiscernible *01:34:19)? MR. : They're supposed to go door 252 1 by door, just like I explained to you before. 2 You're supposed to go in the unit, go on the 3 tier, and you're supposed to walk and look at 4 every cell. 5 MR. : And what'd he saying, he 6 just - to clarify - he wants to make sure it's 7 the Lieutenants that are also supposed to do 8 that. 9 MR. ..es. 10 MR. : Not just the staff. And 11 is that - and again, for clarification, I 12 apologize, but it's so much, we've got to 13 dissect, you know, we're going to have to 14 digest what you told us, and listen to it again 15 - but is it every shift, a Lieutenant should do 16 that? 17 MR. : Yes. Every shift, in the 24- 18 hour period, rounds have to be conducted by a 19 Lieutenant. In SHU. 20 MR. : And so, if Lieutenants 21 are telling us that they don't think that 22 that's part of their duties, they're supposed 23 to do just rounds -- 24 MR. : They're wrong. 25 MR. . -- of staff, and is that EFTA00111892 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 253 policy that sa s -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- that they need to do that? MR. Mileah. MR. : So, and if they're telling us that, are they lying to us, or are they just -? MR. : I think just think they're unaware or confused. MR. : Okay. MR. M. really do. If it says that a Lieutenant will perform a round in the Special Housin Um t, once on their shift. MR. : And then, and that means an actual, not a round to check in with the staff, but a round -- MR. MR. the -? MR. unit. MR. : No. That's a -- -- to actually looking at -- round to walk around the So, in this matter, when you're looking at these 4:00, 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00, and 5:00, which - on our duty 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 254 roster, on both August 9th and August 10th - which Lieutenant should have conducted rounds? MR. : Okay. So, on -- With the inmates. • -- on August 9th, d have done a round in SHU. . But what, approximately MR. MR. shoul MR. what time? MR. hours, onl MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : It's going to be from 1000 2200 hours, to 06. So, the day before - - Right. -- for August 8th -- So, that means -- -- 2200. -- she would have done anything after 12:00. MR. Okay. r MR. : or Durant would have done them. So, I don't know who would have done them on that day, and especially since we didn't have a SHU Lieutenant, they should have done a round in SHU. MR. Okay. MR. : Because just like we had the 255 1 PC unit, that was on the third floor -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- you was responsible for 4 doing a round in the PC unit. 5 MR. : And are you aware if 6 or Durant, they were there? Do you know 7 if either of them are aware that they needed to 8 do rounds of inmates in the SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah, they knew. 10 MR. Okay. 11 MR. Either one of them would have 12 done it. 13 MR. Okay. 14 MR. : So, I would say, normally, 15 when I was the Operations Lieutenant, I would 16 have sent the Activity, hey, go to SHU, go 17 knock out the round. 18 MR. : So, Durant, probably, 19 would have been the one there? 20 MR. : And then, for , I 21 would have sent up there. 22 MR. All right. So, 23 or should have done a round. Okay. And 24 it doesn't have to be - so, when you're saying 25 a round, are you talking about the counts or 256 1 the rounds? It could have been any round, 2 because rounds are 30, it would be 30-minutes 3 or so -- 4 MR. Right. 5 MR. : -- are you talking about 6 one of the main counts? 7 MR. : So, just like a Correctional 8 Supervisor, a Lieutenant, is supposed to make a 9 round in SHU. 10 MR. : I know, but what - I just 11 want to make sure we're clarifying the 12 difference between the 30-minute round and the 13 - because you said they should have conducted 14 one of the 4:00, 10:00, 12:00 -- 15 MR. .That's a count. 16 MR. : -- that's a count? So, 17 are they supposed to conduct a count, or just 18 one of thiliiiilar 30-minute rounds? 19 MR. : No. On every shift, within a 20 24-hour period, a Lieutenant is supposed to 21 make a round in SHU. 22 MR. : A round. So, not -- 23 MR. M. Lieutenant. That's why I 24 would say a Lieutenant. 25 MR. Yup. EFTA00111893 257 1 MR. : It specifies to a - because I 2 can't say the Operations, the Activities, the 3 Admin. No. A Lieutenant. So, that's why we 4 get by on day watch because you have the 5 assigned Lieutenant in the unit, that's going 6 to make the said round. 7 MR. : Okay. And so, when -- 8 MR. : Or day watch. 9 MR. -- so, when went 10 to - at 4:00 - to the SHU, she should have 11 conducted a round of the inmate -- 12 MR. : Of the entire Unit. 13 MR. -- not just checked in 14 with the staff? 15 MR. : No. She should have made a 16 round. 17 MR. : Okay. And then, that's 18 what I wanted to clarify a round versus count. 19 Because that could have happened any time in 20 between - you know, for these people - any time 21 in between any of the counts, at any time they 22 could have showed up and said, let's do a 23 round. 24 MR. Ed-hmm. 25 MR. : Real quick. Okay. 258 1 MR. : And when she made that round, 2 she just sees the person, she doesn't have to 3 talk to them? 4 MR. : You walk around, and if it's 5 at night, you're going to take and shine your 6 light in there, because you're not doing a 7 count. So, as Correctional Officers, you know, 8 over the years, you're taught to look at 9 certain things in a cell. When I shine that 10 light in there, I'm shining, I make sure, 11 because normally inmates will move their foot 12 or move their leg, or arm, or leg, so I would 13 count flesh when I see flesh. I could check 14 the windows real quick, or if they got stuff in 15 hanging, that's restricting my view, I could 16 correct it at that time, hey, take that down, 17 hey you, so and so, get up, take the covering 18 down. That's doing an effective round. And 19 you do that for every cell in the block. 20 MR. : What about when the SHU 21 Lieutenant is on duty, is he the one 22 that's doiiiiiie rounds? 23 MR. : Yeah. No. No, no. Officers 24 are doing the rounds. So, when he does his 25 rounds, it's normally with a status report. 259 1 You understand? 2 MR. So, not only -- 3 MR. : So, he'll do -- 4 MR. -- is he doing it, but 5 also one of the Activities or Ops Lieutenant is 6 also one? 7 MR. 'I'll': No. If is in there, 8 he's the one to do that round. 9 MR. And then -. 10 MR. : He's going to do the round, 11 because he's in the Unit all day. 12 MR. Right. And he's actually 13 physicalliiiiiihe Unit, when he's there? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yes. That's his 15 place of dot ,. 16 MR. : All right. So then, the, 17 you know, the Ops or the Activities 18 Lieutenants, they don't need to then go to the 19 SHU -- 20 21 MR. No. MR. : -- and do rounds on that 22 day? 23 MR. 24 MR. : It's only when he's not 25 there? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 260 MR. ..orrect. MR. : Okay. And then, obviously, he's only there in the day, right? He's not there at night? MR. Right. MR. : So, whoever the Ops Lieutenant is at night, always needs to go do it. MR. : Got to do go a round. Yup. Yeah. MR. And that's what you meant when you said didn't conduct a round, you're talking about, she didn't actually do the inmate round? MR. : Right, because then, she probably would have probably seen the inmate in distress, or -- MR. MR. MR. Right. -- something like that. And do you know anything about when Epstein actually died versus when he was found? MR. : No. MR. : Okay. MR. : I heard it was hours before. EFTA00111894 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 261 MR. : Okay. Where the SHU staff are located in the map that you just drew MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. • -- could they see into Epstein's cell from there? MR. : No. But you could see, like, if the lights was on, you know, so, if I'm standing down by the Officer's Station, I could look up on the tier, and I could look down, and if the lights are on, I could definitely see if the light was on in the cell or not. MR. : About how big are the windows of the doors? MR. : I would say they are probably like this. MR. : About that? Okay. So -- MR. : But -- MR. • -- about, like -- MR. -- and then -. MR. • -- 24 inches by, like, ten inches? MR. : Yeah. MR. : Or something. MR. : Something like that. 1 MR. 2 open? 262 : Okay. And they're always 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : There's nothing that 5 covers them, or -? 6 MR. : We do have the ability to 7 close, like, when we have an incident on the 8 tier, we have an unresponsive inmate, or 9 MR. : Yup. 10 MR. : we were giving medical, 11 you know, if we're doing anything that deals 12 with the inmate specifically, we'll block those 13 other observation windows off, so the inmates 14 can't see. 15 MR. : Now, when the staff are 16 doing an overnight, the early morning watch, 17 from zero, from 12:00 a.m. and through 8:00 18 a.m., are the allowed to sleep? 19 MR. : No. You can't sleep. 20 MR. : So, if the SHU, if 21 they're in the SHU, can one sleep while the 22 other sta s awake? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, no one is allowed to 25 sleep? 263 1 2 MR. No. M MR. : Have you heard that they 3 were slee in on this shift? 4 MR. : I heard that, and what camera 5 footage I saw, I could physically observe them 6 sleeping. 7 MR. So, 8 sleeping? 9 10 MR. Yeah. MR. : So, you did actually 11 review the video? 12 MR. .6 saw - I did see that video. 13 MR. : Okay. You did. And you 14 saw both of them asleep? Do you know about how 15 long they were sleeping? 16 MR. : I can't remember that. 17 MR. Sure. And is that a big 18 problem? 19 MR. That is a very big problem. 20 MR. Okay. 21 MR. : I mean, my thing is, is that 22 I understand that, you know, you worked 23 overtime, or you was mandated to work another 24 time. When I was a Correctional Officer, guess 25 what? I'll go get on the tier, I'll go do did you see them both 264 1 rounds. I would just stay walking in the unit. 2 You know? It's nothing wrong to get on the 3 internet. But between that time you're on the 4 internet, you need to shut it off, and go do 5 rounds. If that's the way you stay awake at 6 night, or do your OIC duties. Audit the - what 7 they're told to do - audit the bed book. Audit 8 the - make sure all the 292s is done for the 9 previous shift. You know, do all the stuff 10 that's mandated on your watch as you're 11 supposed to do, then do those functions. That 12 will keep ou awake. 13 MR. Yeah. 14 MR. If you're doing the work. 15 MR. Were they allowed -- 16 MR. Do you -- 17 MR. -- yeah. 18 MR. -- do you know if either 19 of these individuals, in this instance - Noel 20 or Thomas - were on mandatory overtime? 21 MR. : Noel was. I believe she was 22 going from evening watch to morning watch, and 23 I believe that Thomas came into work that as 24 overtime. 25 MR. Now, Noel was mandatory EFTA00111895 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 265 overtime, thou She didn't -- MR. : Yeah. She was a mandated. I think she was mandated because if you see here, she was - her shift was 4:00 to 12:00. Right? And then, if you see here, as TO - Noel overtime. So, if you go here, it's going to show, go to SHU One. Yeah. So, basically, if iii eah, it says, yeah - if she was SHU One, had hired her on 05/19. So, it doesn't show if she was mandatory, or whatever. MR. : So, it could have voluntary? MR. : It could have been voluntary. MR. : Okay. Okay. Great. And the last thing I want to ask you about, and then I'll turn it over to Lyeson. Here's an e- mail that was sent out on 07/30/2019, from a . Do you know who that is? MR. . That sounds -- MR. : I think it's -- MR. • -- I think Ms. - hold on - she works in Psychology. MR. : Yeah. And it says, "Inmate Epstein, number 76318-054, is being 266 1 taken off psych observation, and needs to be 2 housed with an appropriate cell mate. Do you 3 recall geiiiiiithat at all? 4 MR. : So, "At 07/30, inmate Epstein 5 is going to be taken off of psychological, and 6 needs to be housed with an appropriate inmate." 7 I probabl li ne c ah. 8 MR. : Now, can you flip over - 9 you're going to see all, like, the Lieutenants 10 and everybody in there. If your Lieutenants 11 received this -- 12 MR. It would have said "Read." 13 MR. : -- so, do they have to 14 click on a - do they have, like, for me, I can 15 say, like do I want to send a response or not? 16 MR. : No, they have to click on it. 17 MR. : Right. So, if they don't 18 click on it they could still have read it? 19 MR. • Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And it wouldn't say "Read 21 response"? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. You would have to 23 click on it to read it. 24 MR. : Do you know what I'm 25 saying? So, like, if I open an e-mail, it gives 267 1 me the -- 2 MR. MMn-hmm. 3 MR. : -- it gives me an option 4 - in my e-mail at least - do you want to send a 5 read response? 6 MR. : No, it's different -- 7 MR. : Or not. 8 MR. : -- like, on mine, how I got 9 mine set up, I could see the e-mail message. 10 You know you can do that, right? Like, on my 11 mine, like when m emails come up -- 12 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 13 MR. : I can read what it is 14 without actuall clicking on it. 15 MR. : So, there's a ton of 16 people on there that it doesn't say "Read." 17 MR. IIIIIIiiiiight. 18 MR. : Do you think that they 19 actually didn't see this e-mail, or didn't 20 actually read it? 21 MR. El mean, I believe it. 22 MR. : So, are a lot of BOP 23 employees then, not reading their emails? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. So, if it doesn't "Read" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 268 on there, you believe that some of these Lieutenants actually may not have seen that e- mail? MR. ..1-hmm. MR. : Okay. That's fair enough. MR. : And that's fair. Because I know, if you look at mine, like, I can actually monitor emails, so you don't know if I read, if I seen it. MR. Well, that's kind of my point. MR. MR. MR. MR. Yeah. Is that, like -- Yeah. I have. Yeah. . -- you can read it without actually it showing that it was read. MR. : Yes. I can do it. MR. So, that's what I'm saying. So, in this case -- MR. : Yeah. MR. -- do you think that, just because it says -- MR. : Yeah, because, like, read it. read it. read it. SHU EFTA00111896 269 1 staff. The AW read it. I'm just looking at 2 all of the Lieutenants. Lieutenant Durant read 3 it. The Warden read it. (Indiscernible 4 *01:47:41) read it. So, yeah, there was a few 5 Lieutenants that actually read it. 6 MR. : Okay. But just because 7 it says that they didn't read it, doesn't mean 8 they necessarily - like you - they could have 9 had somethin -- 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : -- set up where it 12 doesn't even show that they read it. 13 MR. Right. 14 MR. : All right. Before I turn 15 it over, can you just - just so we know what 16 documents - can you just initial and date the 17 top of each of these sets of documents that I 18 gave you? 19 MR. ..eah. Right here? 20 MR. : Yeah. lust all on top. 21 Yup. Just your initial and date. Today's date 22 is -- 23 MR. : What is today? 24 MR. : 06/1S. 25 MR. : 06/15/21. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. counts and MR. MR. 270 Oh. . 06/15/21. 06/1S? . Yeah. 06/15/21. 06/15/21. Sorry about that. And just for all the stuff, too. It was the sheet -- : So, I got to do it -- : No, no. Just -- MR. • -- no, no, no, no MR. -- for all of these? MR. • -- just the top of each, like, so, there's the staple. lust on each one that's still", MR. MR. : All right. 06/15/21? : Yeah. This is just the way we keep records of what we actually talked about. MR. : I'm sorry. You know, it's taking MR. : No. We really - it's super helpful. There's a lot of stuff that you told us that we didn't know about, so. MR. : I was surprised you didn't know about him being in the wrong cell. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 271 MR. Yeah. No. That's - did you know an thing about that? MR. : No. MR. But again, that's an administrative error, as opposed to any kind of suspicion related to his death. Correct? MR. alight. MR. : And then, just the duty Agent rosters, or the schedules. Thank you, sir. MR. MR. MR. questions. MR. MR. privileges, an MR. MR. You're welcome. • All right. Lyeson. : lust a couple of follow up : Sure. : Was Epstein given special thing like that? : No. I don't believe so. No. : You mentioned that he was meeting with his Attorneys seven days a week? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And was that allowed for any other the inmates? MR. : I mean, all the inmates are afforded that because while they're pre-trial 272 1 inmates, they have that right, to seek the 2 legal counsel. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So, it's up to the legal 5 counsel when they want to go see them. If they 6 don't want to go see them every 90 days, 7 that's, you know, but his legal counsel came 8 quite often. 9 MR. : Oka fhe phone call. The 10 instruction you gave . You told him 11 that had made the phone call, record it. Now, 12 if Epstein mentioned that he wants to make the 13 phone call to a certain person, and if 14 dialed that number, is he supposed to identify 15 that that's the person who answered the phone? 16 MR. : Yeah. Like I told you 17 before, that's part of the process. So, 18 that's, like, if I call you, and you say, well, 19 I'm so and so, and I'm his Attorney. Okay. 20 Fine. 21 MR. : Now, if that person wasn't 22 the erson who answered the phone, what was 23 supposed to do? 24 MR. : Then he was supposed to not 25 give and allow him to - like, if he was trying EFTA00111897 273 1 to call a male and a female answered the phone, 2 if that meant, is so and so available? No. 3 Then he wouldn't have gotten - been able to 4 speak to the female person that answered the 5 phone. No. 6 MR. : According to the records, I 7 think Epstein mentioned he wanted to speak to 8 his mother. 9 MR. : Okay. I don't know. 10 MR. : Is there, like, a list that 11 they need to go by, or just Epstein would 12 provide the number, and that was it? 13 MR. : Basically, inmates are 14 supposed to supply certain people their 15 supposed to call. So, like, on their phone 16 list, there's certain people that we vet, that 17 the inmates can call. So, normally, it's, 18 like, over in - a religious person, your 19 immediate family members, a girlfriend, a wife, 20 a spouse, children, stuff like that, past or 21 whatever. But then, legally, if your legal 22 contact or your Attorney, it's different. You 23 know, you can - that's a totally different type 24 of call. Outside of what the inmates get. 25 Like, if they pick up the commissary phone, and 274 1 try to call, it's only going to allow them to 2 call those numbers off of the phone list. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : You know what I'm saying? The 5 proof form is the green form. But over here, 6 they say, well, I need to speak to my Attorney. 7 Okay, I'll give you the Attorney call. But if 8 that was the case, he could have been afforded 9 or given, if he was calling his mother, if he 10 had time on the books, because he went back to 11 his cell prior to - I think the cell, the SHU, 12 the cell, the phones in SHU cut off at 9:00 13 p.m. I'm not certain. I can't remember. He 14 could have called his mother at that time. And 15 we wouldn't have had to facilitate the call. 16 He could have called her right from the thing. 17 MR. : So, I just want to - should 18 have checked that list before he made 19 that phone call? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. And the last question 22 is, if the order came from Psych, right? - It 23 was just a question - if the order came from 24 Psych, that Epstein needed a cell mate, should 25 they have come down to the Unit and made sure 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 275 that everyone else knew about it, that requirement? MR. : No. Well, what do you mean? MR. : Let's say, at Psych, that MR. : Yeah. MR. -- e-mail came out saying that, Epstein required a cell mate. MR. : Okay. So, what would have happened is, if he would have been released - because she would put that out. So, if the inmate was being released from suicide watch, prior for him being released from suicide watch, that would have went to the exec staff, that would have went to the SHU OIC, the Operations Lieutenant, to inform him that he needs - before place him in SHU - he needs to have an appropriate cell mate. Not a vetted one. Just someone because of what the SHU policy says, that an inmate must have a cell mate. MR. : Okay, but it's on -- MR. : But it doesn't say a vetted cell mate. It doesn't say all these protocols. But with her, that's a general statement that 276 1 would be made for any suicide watch inmate 2 coming off of suicide watch. 3 MR. : Oh so, she sent that e-mail? 4 MR. : That's it, if you pull up any 5 other e-mail dealing with an e-mail coming from 6 suicide watch, back to SHU, that would be for 7 any inmate. But however, with him, you 8 couldn't necessarily do that because he would 9 have to have a vetted cell mate. He would have 10 to have somebody appropriate for him. Not just 11 any cell that was open. That, you know, if it 12 was a -- 13 MR. : I see. 14 MR. : -- single occupancy, then you 15 could put him in there. But no, he had to be 16 vetted before he could go in with anybody. 17 MR. That's all I had. 18 MR. : Is there anything we're 19 missing? An thing we didn't cover? 20 MR. : That's it. 21 MR. : Let me see this form 22 right here. Yeah, we covered that. All right. 23 So, yeah. If there's nothing else on your end, 24 then just we'll wrap it up. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00111898 277 1 MR. And there's - again - 2 there's nothing that you discussed with the 3 FBI, or the OIG, previous, that we didn't 4 cover? On this. 5 MR. : No. That's pretty much 6 everything,________ 7 MR. IIIIIIIIII: That's it. Perfect. It 8 sounds like you were with -IIIII. Was 9 there anything else that she didn't do, that 10 she should have? Aside from that round. 11 MR. : I mean, with 12 I believe that it was the issue with the log. 13 I think it was a log issue that we had talked 14 about, that when I pulled up the initial log, 15 after I got there, when I pulled up the 16 Lieutenant's log, it appeared that it was two 17 different logs in the system. And then, within 18 45 minutes, one log had disappeared out of the 19 system, and then, I see her leaving at about 20 9:15 a.m., out of the building. I don't know 21 where she was in the building, but at 9:15 22 a.m., she comes walking out of the building. 23 And I reported that to OIG when I talked to 24 them. I talked to them about that log being -- 25 MR. And what was the log? 278 1 MR. : -- the daily log. 2 MR. The daily log. 3 MR. : The Lieutenant's log. So, 4 there was two different logs, and then, one of 5 the logs wasn't right. And then, when I went 6 back, it had been deleted. And then, I see her 7 leaving out the building at 9:15 a.m. 8 MR. Okay. 9 MR. On that Saturday morning. 10 MR. And when should have she 11 left? 12 MR. : She should have left at 6:00. 13 Why was she in the building for another three 14 plus hours? And I brought that up to the 15 investigators to the OIG. 16 MR. : Can I see that timeline? 17 MR. Do you have any reason to 18 believe - obviously, there looks like there was 19 some people that dropped the ball here, there's 20 some, like we talked about, job performance 21 failure, security failure - do you have any 22 reason to believe that there's anybody that 23 harmed Epstein? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. So, do you believe that - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. MR. life. MR. MR. staff did MR. MR. MR. 279 • -- he took his own life? : I believe he took his own . Okay. : I don't believe any of the harm to him. No, I don't. Okay. don't. Nah. And then, as far as - going back to and this log book - when you saw that there was two - it looks like - duplicates, did you see what the discrepancies were, when you noticed that there were two of them for that daily log? MR. : Right. Because I'm going to tell you how I found out. MR. Okay. MR. ro, when I went in TRUSCOPE, : I told you I was looking for the rounds. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Because I'm bouncing the log off of what the rounds was. MR. Mm-hmm. 280 1 MR. : Because all this stuff is 2 going into evidence. So, I'm hurrying, I'm 3 trying to gather this stuff. So, the log, I'm 4 trying to compare it to the rounds, it's not 5 jiving. So, I'm reading the log, and the log 6 is totally - it's not jiving. The whole thing 7 is - the times, the frames - it's not jiving. 8 So then, all of the sudden, when I'm printing 9 out the paperwork from TRUSCOPE, I go back and 10 I look at the log, boom, another log pops up. 11 So, I'm reading this one, and then, the other 12 log that was there before is deleted. 13 MR. And she has the ability 14 to do that? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Would the system reflect that 17 she made chap es? 18 MR. : No. It's not like -- 19 MR. : Or made changes. 20 MR. : -- it's not like the roster. 21 The roster is not going to tell you. You know, 22 the roster will tell you who goes in there and 23 manipulates the roster. But not that. 24 MR. (Indiscernible 25 *01:58:10). EFTA00111899 281 1 MR. : But like I said, then, when 2 I'm in passing, because I'm in the Lieutenant's 3 Office, and I see across, I look out, because, 4 you know, the Alpha door, that door that leads 5 out, she's walking, they let her out through 6 Control Center, at 9:15. I'm, like, where she 7 been all this time? 8 MR. : And did you ever talk to 9 her? 10 MR. M. needed to talk to her. 11 MR. : Did you ever question her 12 about that? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : No? 15 MR. : I let OIG deal with it. 16 Because once the file came up missing, she 17 didn't report doing rounds. The log was 18 duplicated. I said something is going on 19 here. I let Mr. know that. I told the 20 Warden. I told OIG. That was part of my - I 21 don't know why it's not in there - I talked 22 about that lo 23 MR. • And was that -- 24 MR. : I talked about her leaving 25 the institution at 9:15. 282 1 MR. -- and is that with the 2 FBI present? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 5 MR. : And at 9:15, she left between 6 the hours - approximately - 9:10 and 9:15 a.m., 7 on 08/10. 8 MR. Okay. 9 MR. Okay. we have a note in here : 10 that the SHU count was corrected by the 11 Lieutenant log, completed by Lieutenant 12 . At the midnight time, the midnight 13 count, where she corrected it from 73 to 72. 14 Do you recall reading that? 15 MR. : Like I said, it was all kind 16 of discrepancies, all kinds of discrepancies on 17 that log. So, I'm just trying to gather 18 everything, so I could bring it before the 19 Warden, to let him know what's going on. 20 Before we ut it in the S83. 21 MR. : That's what we talked 22 about. 23 MR. Yeah. 24 MR. : We already talked about 25 that, though. 283 1 MR. : Do you understand what I'm 2 saying? 3 MR. Like, what he's talking 4 about is, after these, and I actually cut that 5 out. So,I the iiiiire there. 6 MR. : So, no, but - he's mentioning 7 - from my understanding is - you're saying that 8 the log afterwards, or throughout the night? 9 That all ni ht, you got -- 10 MR. : When I got -- 11 MR. : -- you were (Indiscernible 12 *02:00:02 13 MR. 'I'll': -- when I was reviewing the 14 log from the night, from 08/09 into 08/10. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That morning watch log for 17 08/10? Because it starts off with this one, and 18 then it follows, like this. It was totally 19 bad. It was messed up. It showed - it was a 20 bad log. And then, by the time I was being 21 able to print that log, that log had changed. 22 MR. : All right. 23 MR. : And then, another one was 24 there. That's why I reported it. I don't know 25 why it's not - I reported that to OIG. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 284 MR. : Okay. So, it was a log - overnight lo that got changed? MR. : Yes. MR. : All right. MR. All right. We'll have to follow up with that. But all right. Anything else? MR. : No. That's it, man. MR. Thank you. That was very, very helpful. Thank you so much for your time. It is currently 2:07 p.m., on Tuesday, June 15 2021. This is Senior Special Agent with the DO] OIG, and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00111900 28') CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00111901