EFTA00112365.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 AUGUST 4, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00112365 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112366 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. 2 Okay. My name is , and I am a 3 special agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General. New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 MR. : Yes, sir. 8 MR. : All right. This 9 interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 10 employee, - it's 11 right? - and is being 12 conducted as part of an official U.S. 13 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 14 General, DOJ/OIG investigation. Today's date 15 is August 4, 2021, and the time is 2:17 p.m. 16 This interview is being conducted at the 17 Metropolitan Correction Center, or MCC, located 18 in New York, New York. Also present is DOJ/OIG 19 Special Agent, . This interview 20 will be recorded by me, SSA 21 Could everyone please identify themselves for 22 the record, and spell your last name? To start, 23 again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior Special Agent 24 25 MR. : This is special agent EFTA00112367 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 Department of Justice/OIG. And last 2 name is . These are my credentials. 3 MR. -: 4 Facilities manager. MCC, New York. BOP. 6 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 7 an official investigation into the death of 8 inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the surrounding 9 circumstances, and you are being asked to 10 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 11 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 12 the DOJ/OIG? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 15 the United States Department of Justice, Office 16 of the Inspector General, Warnings and 17 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 18 Information on a Voluntary Basis. "You are 19 being asked to provide information as part of 20 an investigation being conducted by the Office 21 of the Inspector General. This investigation 22 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 23 General Act of 1978, as amended. This 24 investigation pertains to job performance 25 failure, or security failure." I'm sorry, "and EFTA00112368 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 security failure. This is a voluntary 2 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 3 answer questions. No disciplinary action will 4 be taken against you if you choose not to 5 answer questions. Any statements you furnish 6 may be used as evidence in any future criminal 7 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 8 proceedings, or both." Then there's a waiver 9 section, saying, "I understand the Warnings and 10 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 11 make a statement and answer questions. No 12 promises or threats have been made to me, and 13 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 14 used against me." And there's an employee 15 signature. If you want to take a look, and you 16 agree, you can sign right there. Then, there's 17 employee name, where you can just print your 18 name, then I will fill out the rest. Thank 19 you, Mr. , for printing and signing your 20 name. 21 MR. : No problem. The time? 22 MR. : Yeah, I can put that. 23 So, thank you, and also for dating it, 24 8/4/2021. I will put the time at 2:20 p.m. 25 And the place is MMC New York. And I'm EFTA00112369 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 signing. Again, this is 2 I'll do my name. Special Agent could 3 you please sign as the witness, and print your 4 name as the witness. 5 MR. : This is 6 signing on the signature for the witness. 7 MR. : And did you understand 8 the OIG form? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. Just remember, 11 this is voluntary. You can leave at any time. 12 Before starting the interview, I'd like to 13 place you under oath. Mr. could you 14 please raise your right hand? Do you swear to 15 tell the truth and nothing but the truth during 16 this interview? 17 MR. : Yes, I do. 18 MR. : Okay. Thank you, sir. 19 Please let me know if you don't understand any 20 questions. I'll try to repeat them or rephrase 21 them. Okay? What is your current home address? 22 MR. -: 23 24 MR. : Okay. And what is your 25 date of birth? EFTA00112370 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. -: 2 MR. : What's your social 3 security number? 4 MR. -: 5 MR. : And what is your current 6 cell phone number? 7 MR. -: 8 MR. : And what is your highest 9 level of education? 10 MR. : Some college. 11 MR. : And where did you go to 12 college? 13 MR. : Saint Francis. 14 MR. : Where is that located? 15 MR. : Remsen Street. Brooklyn, New 16 York. 17 MR. : And what did you study? 18 MR. : Criminal justice. 19 MR. : Any degrees? Like, 20 associates degree, or anything? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : And when was your last 23 time that you went there? 24 MR. : Oh. 25 MR. : It was a long time ago? EFTA00112371 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Like, late 90s? 3 MR. : Yeah. Probably. I'm trying 4 to -- 5 MR. : 1990s? 6 MR. : -- '93. 7 MR. : '93. Okay. What did you 8 do prior with working for the BOP? 9 MR. : I worked for NYPD. 10 MR. : Oh, yeah? For how long? 11 MR. : Just under five years. 12 MR. : Great. And what, from 13 around when to when? 14 MR. : From - I left there in 2004. 15 So, 1999, 2000. 16 MR. : Great. And did you leave 17 under favorable circumstances? 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Any military service? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. And how long have 22 you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 23 with the BOP? 24 MR. : I started in 2004. April of 25 2004. 17 years. EFTA00112372 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. And do you know when your entry on duty date was? MR. ~: • MR. : Well, that's nice and easy to remember. Nice. When did you graduate from BOP training? MR. : Oh. MR. : Would it have been in '04? MR. : Yeah, yeah. It was. It was a holiday, too. May. MR. : Okay. MR. : May. MR. : But so, right away, you would have wanted the training? MR. : Uh-huh. Yeah. A couple months. MR. : It's not really important, but 2004. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Okay. And what is your current position MR. MR. with the BOP? Facility manager. : And what does that pos itionr description entail? EFTA00112373 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : Oversee the facilities 2 department, which is all the trades, plumbing, 3 comtechs, electricians, plumbers. Every trade. 4 General maintenance. 5 MR. : About how many people are 6 underneath your supervision? 7 MR. : Currently, 16. 8 MR. : 16. 9 MR. : 15 or under. 10 MR. : And how many should be? 11 Is that fully staffed? 12 MR. : No. There's two open. That 13 will be - yes - 16 will be fully staffed. 14 Right now, I have two less. 15 MR. : Okay. And who do you 16 report to? 17 MR. : Associate wardens. 18 MR. : Okay. And at the time, 19 who was the associate wardens? 20 MR. _; , at that time. 21 MR. : At this time. Sorry. 22 MR. : Oh, I'm sorry. Right now, 23 it's , is my associate warden. 24 MR. : Okay. Great. So, are 25 you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? EFTA00112374 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yes. MR. : Was he housed within the MCC, in July and August of 2019? MR. : I believe so. MR. : What was your position at the MCC in July and August of 2019? MR. : Facility manager, then. MR. : Okay. And so, but that was the same duties and responsibilities which you just described? MR. : Yes. MR. : And has that description, position description changed at all since MR. : No. MR. that time? Did you have any interactions or involvement with Epstein during his stay at the MCC? MR. : No. MR. : No? None at all? And did you work at the MCC on August 9th and 10th of 2019? MR. MR. do you -- MR. : August -? : So, August 9th. And so, : No. EFTA00112375 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : -- remember when -? No? 2 MR. : I was on vacation. 3 MR. : You were on vacation. Do 4 you know if you had anybody acting in your 5 place, as the supervisor? 6 MR. : Usually, if I go out, I 7 usually put something else that's possibly -. 8 There's an out to memo. 9 MR. : Like, an out of office 10 assistant? 11 MR. : For emails. Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : That would -. At this time, 14 I don't remember exactly. It could have been 15 (Phonetic Sp. *00:07:15), or one of 16 the foreman, plumber foreman. 17 MR. : So, . Would 18 he be somebody that you would frequently put in 19 your place as acting? 20 MR. : He just started, also, and so 21 did I. So, I was very new with everyone here. 22 MR. : Okay. Were there other 23 people that you would also 24 MR. : There is. 25 MR. : -- ask? EFTA00112376 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : There is. 2 MR. : Who else would be 3 responsible for acting, if it wasn't 4 ? 5 MR. -. . , at that time. 6 MR. : And who is ? 7 MR. : A female general maintenance. 8 I think is her name. 9 MR. ? 10 MR. : 11 MR. : Okay. And , 12 that -? 13 MR. -. . . 14 MR. : So, if they were acting, 15 would they take on your role? 16 MR. : Correct. 17 MR. : They would? And do 18 everything that you would do? 19 MR. : They should. 20 MR. : Okay. Are you aware that 21 the cameras were not working properly within 22 the MCC on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 23 MR. : No. Not that -. No. 24 MR. : Are you aware at this 25 time? EFTA00112377 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Now. Yeah. Yeah. 2 MR. : At the time, you were 3 not? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : But now. Okay. And who 6 was responsible for making sure the cameras 7 were working properly on August 9th and 10th of 8 2019? 9 MR. : At that time, there was one 10 only Comtech, I believe, which was 11 MR. : Okay. So, I'm assuming 12 now you know, but please explain what happened, 13 and why the cameras weren't working properly on 14 August 9th and 10th of 2019. So, do you know 15 now, after the fact? 16 MR. : Why they weren't working? 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : Failed recorders. Hard 19 drives. The system was old, from what I 20 understand. 21 MR. : Okay. And are you 22 familiar, at all, with that kind of, like, are 23 you familiar with the cameras, or are you, 24 like, technically -? 25 MR. : I am a - I was a Comtech. EFTA00112378 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : So, you are familiar with 4 that? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. So, do you know, 7 like, was it something that happened often? 8 MR. : Here, I don't know. But yes, 9 so, if hard drives crap out, if more than two 10 crap - die, then the system goes down. 11 MR. : So, did you -- 12 MR. : For that recorder. 13 MR. : -- at the time, after you 14 found out that the cameras were not recording 15 on August 9th and 10th, did you look into the 16 matter? 17 MR. : I don't even know. I asked 18 questions and stuff, but I believe I don't 19 know at what time the recorders were taking 20 from the -. The FBI took them. 21 MR. : Right. But I guess, did 22 you ask - like, it sounds like - did you 23 ask about, like, hey, what happened? Why 24 it's -- 25 MR. : Correct. EFTA00112379 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- not recording? 2 MR. : Correct. And I -- 3 MR. : And what did you learn? 4 MR. and that's what I was 5 given, that they went down, the recorder went 6 down. 7 MR. : Did he say when they went 8 down? 9 MR. : I do not know. 10 MR. : Did you ask if he 11 reported the information to anyone. 12 MR. : I don't - honestly - I don't 13 remember if I did or didn't. 14 MR. : Would that have been a 15 topic? 16 MR. : Of course. Of course, tha-. 17 Knowing me, I would have asked a lot more 18 questions. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : But I can't say 100 percent 21 that I remember. 22 MR. : Being such a big deal, 23 though, you don't remember if that was, like, a 24 -? 25 MR. : No. Honestly, everything is EFTA00112380 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 such a blur right now, with everything. But 2 knowing me, I probably did ask, and that's - 3 because there was a camera project that was in 4 play already. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : And when I came here, the big 7 focus was heating and electric, due to 8 everything that happened at another 9 institution. So, when I got here, all my focus 10 was that stuff. And as things started getting 11 better on the stuff that I was looking at, to 12 take care of, which is the heating and the 13 cooling, and the lights for the population, 14 then I would work, too, some other things. And 15 start getting those things working. 16 MR. : So, the cameras was on a 17 list, but just down the list? 18 MR. : Was. It was - I think in 19 2018, they had a camera project started - and 20 it was in the process of bidding for materials 21 and stuff like that. 22 MR. : So, when you say "the 23 process," you just mean, like, no cameras were 24 being replaced as of yet, you were talking 25 about, like, just getting that process rolling EFTA00112381 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to -- 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : -- to get new cameras? 4 MR. : Correct. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Correct. 7 MR. : And why were new cameras 8 needed? 9 MR. : Oh, they were old, 10 antiquated. 11 MR. : So, were they frequently 12 going down? Or just with -? 13 MR. : That's just hearsay, that I 14 was told, yes, that that was an issue that was 15 here. 16 MR. : And remind me again, when 17 did you become the facilities manager? 18 MR. : May. 19 MR. : May of 2019? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : So, from May 2019 until 22 August 10th of 2019, do you recall the cameras 23 going down, and not recording? 24 MR. : I wouldn't know 100 percent. 25 Today, I could tell you that because I do a EFTA00112382 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 daily check of the cameras. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Back then, I did not. 4 MR. : But back then, when this 5 happened, did you look into it to find out, 6 were they constantly going down? 7 MR. : No. Not that I remember. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : If I did. 10 MR. : So, this wasn't anything 11 like the warden, or any kind of review team 12 came in and said, hey, can you get some 13 information about, like, what's going on with 14 this camera system, and why wasn't it recorded? 15 MR. : No. I don't remember ever 16 getting asked. No. 17 MR. : Okay. So, when did you 18 first become aware that the cameras in the MCC 19 were not working properly on August 9th and 20 10th of 2019? 21 MR. : Maybe when I came back from 22 vacation, it was. 23 MR. : So, no one contacted you 24 while you were on vacation? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00112383 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : So, did electronic 2 technician, , inform you that the 3 cameras were not working properly on August 4 9th? 5 MR. : I'm sure after I came back 6 and I asked -- 7 MR. : But he didn't -- 8 MR. : -- questions. 9 MR. : -- he didn't call you on 10 August 9th -- 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : -- and tell you? 13 MR. : No, no, no. 14 MR. : Do you know if 15 electrician technician, 16 informed anyone that the cameras were not 17 working properly on August 9th? 18 MR. : I do not know. 19 MR. : Okay. So, if he says he 20 informed a supervisor on August 9th, prior to 21 leaving, that the cameras not, in fact, 22 recording, who would have he told? 23 MR. : You know what? He might have 24 told, but - because now that you 25 said it like that - he might have told EFTA00112384 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 I don't know if he came to the 2 institution. And he might have came to the 3 institution that day. But I'm not 100 percent 4 sure. 5 MR. : So, he was here on the 6 9th. 7 MR. : He was. 8 MR. : And he noticed that they 9 weren't on. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : What he's saying is that, 12 he noticed that they were down. But he - and 13 he notified his superiors, his supervisors, but 14 he noticed right before then, of his shift at 15 2:00 p.m., and he was told fix it tomorrow when 16 you come in at 6:00 a.m. Do you know anything 17 about that? 18 MR. : No. I did not know that. 19 MR. : So, if he says that he 20 informed his supervisor, do you know who would 21 have been that he would have informed? 22 MR. : Yeah, all the other people 23 could know is either the person I left acting, 24 or the AW. 25 MR. : All right. And EFTA00112385 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was the AW? 2 MR. : Correct. 3 MR. : Was Edge also an AW? 4 MR. : She was. 5 MR. : Okay. So, would it be 6 or Edge, or just 7 MR. : So, was over 8 us. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : But it could have been either 11 one. 12 MR. : All right. So, 13 could potentially be an option. So, if 14 was your acting, he says that he 15 didn't tell him. did not call you or 16 tell you. So - all right - so, neither. So, 17 and are you positive of that, that he did not 18 inform you? 19 MR. : I'm pretty sure. Yes. 20 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. 21 MR. : I mean, it was a long time 22 ago. I know when I found out, I did call 23 to see if they need me back 24 sooner, off of my vacation. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00112386 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MR. : That, I do remember. If I 2 got a phone call from I know we did 3 speak, I don't remember if it was in person or 4 on the phone. That, I don't remember. 5 MR. : So, just - and again 6 have you heard, like, in the news how this is, 7 like, such a big deal, and people are talking 8 about, like, if -- 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- how are there no 11 cameras recording? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : So, I know it was a long 14 time ago, but I just want you to try to, like, 15 remember, like -- 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : -- hey, this was a huge 18 part of this, was the camera thing. So, 19 whatever you can remember, that would be, you 20 know, great, but as far as, like, him notifying 21 you, you do not remember? 22 MR. : I do not remember him 23 notifying -- 24 MR. : And he's not - and I'm 25 not saying -- EFTA00112387 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 MR. -- (Indiscernible *00:15:05). MR. : -- that he's -- MR. : No, I know that. MR. : -- he said he did. This is just one of those things. MR. : I don't remember getting a call from him, and I know it's not like him to call me, because I've had to talk to him for communication. MR. : So, you've had to say, you need to communicate more? MR. : Yeah. MR. : And what -- MR. : So, that's -. MR. : -- was that prior to that time, too? MR. : Oh, not so much, because I was brand-new, really, to But there is times that, yes. MR. : Okay. MR. : His communication skills need 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to -. MR. : Okay. And then, as far as that with , though, I mean, was that at all discussed, like, informed EFTA00112388 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 her, or anything like that? 2 MR. : No. It was too new. As soon 3 as - I could tell you, this part, I do 4 remember. My uncle came down the stairs and 5 said it, of the house that we were renting, and 6 I said, no, man, really? And that's when I 7 called the institution, and spoke to her. 8 said, if you need me to come in, let me know. 9 I'm in South Carolina. 10 MR. : Nice of you. What did 11 she say? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. Do you know 14 anything about being sent home on August 15 9th, 2019, knowing that the cameras were not 16 working properly? Would have that been 17 something that someone would have done? Would 18 have someone said, don't worry about it, take 19 care of it tomorrow? 20 MR. : Possibly. 21 MR. : Yeah. So then, would 22 that not surprise you, then, if someone said, 23 that's fine? 24 MR. : It all depends on -. I don't 25 think today, after everything, I think they EFTA00112389 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 learned that those are things that need to get 2 fixed. 3 MR. : Yup. 4 MR. : But it wouldn't surprise me. 5 Depending on the budget, and overtime, and 6 restrictions, and what they're allowed. You 7 know, it wouldn't surprise me. I know I 8 wouldn't do it. I've learned a lot from other 9 issues, and that's one that I learned. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : That's just getting done and 12 - or at least bringing to the next person's 13 level. 14 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 15 was instructed on August 9th, 2019 to 16 fix the cameras the following day, on August 17 10th, 2019? 18 MR. : I don't -- 19 MR. : You don't. 20 MR. : I don't know. 21 MR. : No. Do you believe, if 22 that was what was done, was that an acceptable 23 course of action? 24 MR. : It depends on what camera it 25 was, what -. EFTA00112390 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, if he's saying 2 there's 150 cameras, 75 of them were down and 3 not recording, and -- 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : -- he's told just fix it 6 tomorrow when you report to duty, do you think 7 that would be acceptable? 8 MR. : No. I don't -. No. He 9 should get that recorded -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. up and running. 12 MR. : All right. And knowing 13 that information, do you believe that 14 would have sent him home if she 15 is, in the fact, the person that he notified? 16 MR. : Yeah. I don't think -- 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : -- anybody would have sent 19 someone home on that night. I don't think so. 20 MR. : Okay. So, do you have 21 any reason to believe that would lie 22 about that, to say, like, yup, I definitely 23 told a supervisor, I can't recall what the 24 supervisor is, but I definitely told the 25 supervisor, and they told me to go home, and EFTA00112391 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 fix it the next day? 2 MR. : I don't see him as a liar, 3 but I don't -- 4 MR. : Have you ever caught him 5 in a lie? 6 MR. : I never caught him in a 7 lie. But just very - he's very -. Lax, I 8 don't know, lax. He doesn't take any -. No 9 urgencies. 10 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. He's a very 11 laidback guy. Okay. So, do you know who the 12 first person to find out that the cameras were 13 not working? Do you know who that would have 14 been? 15 MR. : I don't know. No. 16 MR. : No. And you said you 17 didn't -. You found out from 18 calling you? 19 MR. : No, no. 20 MR. : Oh, you didn't even know 21 at that time? 22 MR. : No. No, I don't - no - 23 don't remember. I don't remember how or when I 24 found out. At some point, I did, and I don't 25 know if it was when I came back, but it EFTA00112392 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 definitely wasn't at that first phone call I 2 had with the institution. 3 MR. : And were you ever 4 interviewed by the FBI, or anybody about this? 5 Or the OIG. 6 MR. : Not about this. 7 MR. : No, not about - and not 8 about the cameras or anything? 9 MR. : Oh, yeah. I - yeah - 10 definitely was involved with them transporting 11 the recorders and stuff, and being in the room. 12 MR. : But were you interviewed? 13 MR. : Oh, no, no. 14 MR. : No. So, this is the 15 first time you're being interviewed 16 MR. : Oh, yeah. 17 MR. : -- on this matter? Okay. 18 Aside from , who had access to the camera 19 system? So, I guess I should preface this. Not 20 just for looking at the cameras on the TV, but 21 where would have the camera system been housed, 22 that could have -- 23 MR. : The S -- 24 MR. : -- could have knocked 25 them offline? EFTA00112393 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- the SIS office. 2 MR. : Is that the only place 3 that could have -- 4 MR. : At that time. 5 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 6 *00:19:41)? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. And would the SIS 9 individuals, the technicians, and the 10 lieutenants, and the SIA, would they have the 11 ability to access that camera system within 12 their office? 13 MR. : I believe they have the keys 14 to that office. 15 MR. : I didn't know if they - 16 were they locked in a separate areas? 17 MR. : The recorders? 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : No. They're in -. So, 20 there's two doors to go through. Yeah. 21 MR. : So, is anybody that's in 22 SIS, could have any one of them accessed that 23 cameras? 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. : Okay. So, any one of EFTA00112394 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 them could have theoretically knocked the 2 camera system offline? 3 MR. : Possibly. 4 MR. : All right. So, was that 5 a fully-staffed office at the time, are you 6 aware? 7 MR. : I don't. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. SIS, you're talking about? 10 MR. : Correct. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Could either you or 13 , or anyone else for that matter, got 14 access to that camera system without SIS 15 letting you in? 16 MR. : No. Not that I -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- every time that I've had 19 to go in there, one of the comtechs were with 20 me, and we always - from what I understand - we 21 get SIS to let us in. 22 MR. : Okay. So, at that time, 23 if went on August 9th, to check on the 24 camera system, SIS would have had to have 25 allowed him in to enter that office? EFTA00112395 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : And I believe there was at least - and I don't know what the SIS has to, yeah, had to stay with them, or let them in at some point, on an off hour, and it might not even be related to this, but to work on the system, at some point. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, yes. So, that means they would be the only ones with the key. MR. : Okay. So, - they would have had to allow access. MR. : Yeah. I don't even think my comtechs have the key to that office. MR. : Okay. Okay. Do you know who from SIS was in charge at that time? MR. : The captain. The captain. MR. : Was there an SIA, or was it just an SIS lieutenant at the time? MR. : So, SIA back then, I don't know if was still here or not. (Phonetic Cp. .00:21:30) aas the SIA at some point. And Lieutenant was the lieutenant for a while. MR. : Okay. MR. : And I think - remember. EFTA00112396 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Was it a similar 2 situation now, whereas the SIA was actually 3 downstairs, and the lieutenant was upstairs? 4 MR. : The SIA was here. 5 MR. : Correct. 6 MR. : And the lieutenant is 7 upstairs. Yes. 8 MR. : All right. So, the SIA 9 wasn't actually physically in the room 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : -- where the cameras were 12 located? 13 MR. : Neither are they. 14 MR. : So, the lieutenant is not 15 either? 16 MR. : No. They're in -. So -- 17 MR. : I've never been up there. 18 MR. : -- okay. So, there's an 19 office here. There's the hallway. There's a 20 door here for the tech room. And then, inside 21 there is another door, and that's where 22 evidence and the cameras are. 23 MR. : But that's all within the 24 SIS space? 25 MR. : No, because -. All right. EFTA00112397 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 So, you have the SIS - that back then, it was 2 the captain's office, which is now an AW's 3 office. Next to it is this office I'm talking 4 about. 5 MR. : So, who would be in the 6 office that where the cameras were located? The 7 technicians? 8 MR. : The technicians. 9 MR. : Okay. Just the techs, 10 not the lieutenant, or -- 11 MR. : Yeah, it's always -- 12 MR. : -- the SIA? 13 MR. yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And again, I was very new 16 there. But yeah, the lieutenant sat in their 17 office, with two other desks. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 19 anyone could have - the way that it all 20 happened - do you know if anyone could have 21 intentionally taken the cameras offline, or 22 stopped them from recording? Especially being a 23 Comtech guy yourself. 24 MR. : If it crashed, anything is 25 possible. I mean, you could do anything, and EFTA00112398 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 hurt the hard drive. If two hard drives were 2 down. Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : If they disconnected, that's 5 a different story. They don't just disconnect. 6 MR. : And do you know anything 7 about it? Did you research it at all to find 8 out, like, what happened? 9 MR. : No. By the time I got here, 10 it was -. 11 MR. : Said and done. When was 12 the next time you reported to work? 13 MR. : I would guess Monday. 14 MR. : Okay. And by that time, 15 were they basically already pulled and 16 everything, by the FBI? 17 MR. : I don't know. No, because 18 they had to come here. I know I sat with them 19 for a while, downloading stuff. And I can't 20 remember what incident that was. 21 MR. : And weren't they, like - 22 at the time - weren't they saying, like, how 23 could have this happened? How are these not 24 recording? 25 MR. : I don't -. No, because we EFTA00112399 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 didn't -. All they were doing was taking stuff 2 off the hard drive. They weren't watching 3 anything. 4 MR. : Right, right. 5 MR. : They were just -. They 6 didn't know what they were taking yet. 7 MR. : Okay. Do you know if, at 8 that time, you knew that the cameras were not 9 recording? Do you when that was - when it was 10 learned that nothing recorded here? 11 MR. : No. I don't. 12 MR. : You don't know? And 13 again, you can't remember any conversations you 14 had with , specific to that matter? 15 MR. : No. Not - no - not -. 16 don't remember if it was - like I said - the 17 Monday I came back, or what. I don't remember. 18 MR. : Yeah, yeah. And I'm not 19 asking for a specific conversation. I'm just 20 talking about, like, in general, what you 21 learned about, like, how that happened. And, 22 like, what was done, and all that. 23 MR. : The cause of it going down? 24 MR. : Sure. What was the cause 25 of it going down? EFTA00112400 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 MR. : The cause. Yeah. I don't 2 know exact cause. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : And if he would have just 5 told me, yeah, the hard drives crapped out, 6 that would have been sufficed for me to hear 7 because I know the hard drives do crap out. 8 MR. : Okay. But you just can't 9 remember if they had before that time, since 10 you were there since May? 11 MR. : No. I don't. 12 MR. : Okay. Could have 13 intentionally taken the cameras offline, or 14 stopped them from recording? 15 MR. : Anybody could do anything. I 16 don't think -. I don't think he's that type of 17 person. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 19 reason to believe that anyone intentionally 20 took the cameras offline, or stopped them from 21 recording on or around August 9th, 2019? 22 MR. : I don't think anybody did 23 intentionally. 24 MR. : Okay. Prior to August 25 10th, 2019, how often would the cameras go EFTA00112401 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 down, go offline, stop recording? Weekly? 2 Monthly? 3 MR. : From when? 4 MR. : Prior to August 10th. 5 MR. : I don't know. 6 MR. : Okay. What steps have 7 you taken to correct the wrong? 8 MR. : So, we had a new system put 9 in, then that got taken. We had a new system 10 put in, and corrective action from that point 11 is, we daily, on the weekdays, the only time 12 when I'm here, or my general foreman, we look 13 at every camera, make sure they're all up and 14 running. I check each recorder and make sure 15 the recorder is actually running. After that, 16 I'll send an email out to the full exec staff, 17 SIS. Full exec staff and SIS, comtechs, that 18 all cameras are working, or whatever camera is 19 not working. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Recently, we have no issues. 22 MR. : Do you know if the 23 cameras were working when you went on vacation, 24 prior to August 10th, 2019? Do you know if the 25 cameras were working or not working at that EFTA00112402 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 point? 2 MR. : I do not know. 3 MR. : You don't know. Would 4 you ever independently check on the camera 5 system yourself, at that point? 6 MR. : No, because I didn't even 7 have rights to the cameras back then. 8 MR. : Okay. Now, as far as 9 documentation, it's our understanding that any 10 time that there was a problem with the cameras, 11 it would have to be called in to get a work 12 order or something like that. Do you know 13 anything about that? 14 MR. : Work orders should be 15 generated. They're not generated all the time. 16 Depending on, hey, if it's an emergency 17 situation, like a flood, a camera, let's get it 18 up and running, and then follow it up with an 19 email. If the person does not put a work 20 order, if the person doesn't put a work order 21 in, I'll try to put a work order. If I forget, 22 then that one didn't get a work order. 23 MR. : Okay. So, this is coming 24 from way up on high, like, to try to obtain any 25 work orders, or documentation from the August EFTA00112403 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 9th and 10th, and leading up to that point. 2 MR. : Definitely. 3 MR. : Were you able to do that? 4 MR. : I could run a report, sure. 5 MR. : Awesome. And I didn't 6 know if that was something that we had to do. 7 I thought that I heard that you had to go 8 through, like, the contractor, or I didn't know 9 if it was something that was kept in-house. 10 MR. : No, it 11 MR. : Or what. 12 MR. : -- it's on the computer. 13 Yeah. 14 MR. : All right. 15 MR. : And those dates, I don't 16 think they've changed over the system. I'll be 17 able to give you a better answer. 18 MR. : Fantastic. 19 MR. : I'll try -- 20 MR. : Yeah. So -- 21 MR. : -- tomorrow, and let you 22 know. 23 MR. so, yeah, if you were 24 able to, for instance, I guess, anything from 25 January 1st of 2019, up until August 10th of EFTA00112404 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2019. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Just so it's, you know, 4 we can at least see what was happening, leading 5 up to it, as well as if there was anything 6 generated, on specifically on that 7 (Indiscernible *00:28:11). 8 MR. : January. 9 MR. : So, I guess just January 10 1st, 2019 to August 10th, 2019. Or just to 11 capture it, maybe do August, like, that Monday, 12 the 12th. Or never mind. That Tuesday. But 13 just cameras? 14 MR. : I don't know. Would there be 15 -? Is there another thing that went down? 16 MR. : No. I'm just saying. So, I 17 would have to do a search for anything with the 18 description of "cam." 19 MR. : Yeah. So, whatever would 20 cover us for these cameras going down. 21 MR. : All right. 22 MR. : So, whether it's SHU 23 cameras, it's MCC cameras, but primarily, we 24 want to know, these cameras went down. And so, 25 the question is, when was it reported? Who EFTA00112405 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 reported it? You know, what was reported, and 2 how many times, prior to that time, were 3 cameras going down, and what was reported, and 4 what was done -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- and what were the 7 problems, how was it resolved? That kind of 8 stuff. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, they just want to, 11 you know, obviously, with the oversights on 12 this thing, you know, the camera thing is kind 13 of a big deal because, apparently, like, none 14 of the cameras in the SHU were working, 15 correct? Or recording. 16 MR. : No. I -- 17 MR. : Do you know that? 18 MR. -- I believe there was at 19 least one, because I saw footage and some kind 20 of -- 21 MR. : Well, this one, right? 22 MR. Yeah. 23 MR. : Do you know of any other 24 camera other than this? Because this was 25 actually right outside of Ten South. EFTA00112406 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But that's SHU. 2 MR. : Right, right, right. 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. -: But, I mean, none of, 5 like -- 6 MR. : That is a SHU 7 MR. none of, like, the -- 8 MR. : There's one on - at that time 9 - there's only one on each range. 10 MR. : Right. So, like, this 11 camera. 12 MR. : This camera. Right. 13 MR. : That would be, like -. 14 Yeah. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : So, none of these 17 recording -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -: -- so, the only thing 20 that I know, that was recording, unless you 21 tell me otherwise, is this one, right? 22 MR. : That one. That's the only 23 one I ever saw, and I don't even remember if it 24 was on news or something. But yeah. 25 MR. : Oh, you -- EFTA00112407 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I don't know. 2 MR. : I was going to say. 3 MR. : I don't know if it was -- 4 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 5 MR. -- right? I do remember just 6 seeing -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- that. 9 MR. : Okay. And that's the 10 only one that you know of recording? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Okay. And was that 13 anything that you talked about with 14 MR. : No, because that was way 15 after the -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. -- the other scene. 18 MR. : So, where were we? 19 MR. : Just a couple. When he's 20 mentioning cameras, he's talking about the hard 21 drives, he's talking about any equipment 22 related to the cameras, any network updates, 23 things like that. Anything involving the 24 cameras all together. 25 MR. : Okay. Right. So, for TMS EFTA00112408 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 purposes, I can guarantee, no one ever put a 2 work order in if a hard drive crashed, or 3 anything like that. But if a camera went down, 4 that - for some reason - that, you get a more 5 of a response for a TMS. The recorder and 6 thinking about it now, they should put a work 7 order in, would only be the comtechs that would 8 be noticing it, because they'll be getting the 9 error in the camera room. 10 MR. : So, a couple things. What's 11 TMS? 12 MR. : So, that's the work - that's 13 where the work orders are generated from. It's 14 called TMS, or CMMS. Computer Monitoring 15 System. 16 MR. : It's at an outside firm? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : Oh, it's just a software -- 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : -- okay. You guys use. D 21 MR. : It's a - yeah - it's a system 22 that facilities uses throughout the Bureau. 23 MR. : Okay. And do you guys have 24 specific contracts with specific companies that 25 does the upgrades for you guys, or work for you EFTA00112409 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 guys? 2 MR. : That's all in Central office. 3 MR. : What if Central Office says 4 that they would give approval, but it was MCC 5 that had locally handled the, like, you got 6 your own people that service everything? 7 MR. : No. We don't -. Hold on. 8 For work orders? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : So, I thought when we had 12 talked to , he had mentioned that, like, 13 it was a contractor that was doing this stuff. 14 He had to call a contractor, some kind of 15 contract site. 16 MR. : Maybe for tech support, on 17 fixing. NICE (Phonetic Sp. *00:31:55). NICE 18 is - or SIGNET (Phonetic Sp. *00:31:57) - 19 SIGNET is the contractor that works on the NICE 20 equipment. 21 MR. : And was NICE -. What 22 wasn't here before? I don't understand. 23 MR. : That's what's in here now, 24 also. Quigno (Phonetic Sp. *00:32:09), or 25 whatever they changed the names to. EFTA00112410 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, yeah. 2 MR. : But it's still SIGNET. 3 MR. : Oh, okay. 4 MR. : So, I thought he was 5 telling us he would have to call the contractor 6 on August 9th and tell him this is what's going 7 on. 8 MR. : That is accurate. 9 MR. : And is that what you 10 would be able to generate from that? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. So, that's what 13 we've been asked to get, is all contract -- 14 MR. : Oh. 15 MR. : -- you know, stuff, and - 16 17 MR. : Oh. So, no. 18 MR. : -- and as well as 19 MR. : This is all -- 20 MR. : -- communications, 21 payments for the time period. So, 22 specifically, I guess, it's all documentation, 23 including any and all system repair 24 documentation, and contract and 25 communications/payments for the time period EFTA00112411 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 leading up to August 10th, 2019. 2 MR. : And I believe we did have the 3 contractor here, after the fact. Or on the 4 phone. Definitely, I know for a fact, that the 5 FBI, when they were trying to upload all the 6 information, was definitely on the phone. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : With - and again, I can't 9 remember if it was this incident, the gun 10 incident. I dont -. 11 MR. : So, , when we were 12 speaking with him, seemed to - from my 13 recollection - indicate that it was the 14 contractor that he would have called. They 15 would have had making notes on their ends. 16 MR. : 100 percent that would be 17 And then, that's where you would -- 18 MR. : So, how would you get 19 MR. that's who you would call. 20 MR. : -- how would we get that 21 number? 22 MR. : Oh, I can -. Yeah. I have 23 all their numbers. 24 MR. : Okay. So, and do we have 25 a -. EFTA00112412 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It's SIGNET Technologies. 2 MR. : Can you say, when you 3 talk to -. When you talk to EOP/OIA, or who 4 was it that we -? Did you talk to them about 5 that? 6 MR. : Yeah. They said they don't 7 have a copy of the contracts. It would be 8 either - all the contracts would be held here 9 at MCC, and the copies of it -- 10 MR. : It's a national contract. 11 MR. : -- so, that's what they said. 12 They said that -- 13 MR. : So, if you can just 14 MR. -- they fund you guys. 15 MR. : -- we'll deal with -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- we'll deal with our 19 end. And if you were able to -- 20 MR. : I can give you their phone 21 number with that. 22 MR. : -- yeah, if -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- if you're able to 25 provide us with that information -- EFTA00112413 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It's not -. Yeah. 2 MR. : -- because there's 3 probably not - it's probably going to have to 4 come directly from the BOP, for that 5 information, because you're their direct 6 customer. And we can try to explain we're OIG, 7 and we have -. 8 MR. : Once I call them, and I t ell 9 them, you can talk to this person, I've done it 10 with - in the past - with other agencies. I've 11 never saw an issue. 12 MR. : Okay. Great. Yeah. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Whatever I could do. 15 MR. : Awesome. We appreciate 16 that. 17 MR. : That's an easy one. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : But just so we're clear, work 20 orders is a system internal, that if somebody's 21 light went out, you put a work order in, and we 22 come and fix it. It doesn't always work, 23 because people are, hey, you're walking by, my 24 light is out. 25 MR. : Well, in this case, if EFTA00112414 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 is the person who recognized that the 2 cameras were out, and he's the one that 3 actually going to fix it the next day, he 4 probably wouldn't have put in a work order for 5 himself, would he? 6 MR. : You should, but it's 7 unrealistic. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : They don't do it. 10 MR. : Right. So, we're not 11 going to probably find anything 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : -- from that? Okay. 14 MR. : That's -. 15 MR. : So, we'll check, but 16 yeah, and again, according to him, my 17 understanding was, no, no, no, it's the 18 contractor that I called, it's the contractor 19 would have that document. 20 MR. : And to help him through the 21 issues, I would say that's very accurate that 22 he would call the contractor right away. 23 MR. : Okay. So, yeah. So, 24 that's the documentation we need 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00112415 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : to get a hold of. 2 MR. : Just a quick question. If 3 they call, if you call the contractor, does the 4 contractor send, like, an email confirmation, 5 hey, listen, we're coming on this day? 6 MR. : No. But they might have 7 phone. I don't know. 8 MR. : Do they bill them? Like, 9 hbey, the MCC called me, I'm going to bill you 10 for these hours? 11 MR. : No, because it's such a large 12 contract. I don't -. We've I don't know. 13 I'm going to have to ask -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- Steve Smith is a guy from 16 SIGNET. He's the salesperson. So, he might 17 have records of when they spoke to people, or 18 sent a technician down here. 19 MR. : Perfect. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. Who had knowledge 22 that the outdated camera system needed 23 replacing? 24 MR. : It was prior to me being here 25 because the camera project. EFTA00112416 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : So, who would have known 2 about the camera project, though? 3 MR. : It would have to be the 4 region. Like, that's -- 5 MR. : Would it have been, like 6 7 MR. : -- the warden, the region -- 8 MR. : -- would the lieutenants 9 have known? -- 10 MR. every -. 11 MR. : -- would have -? 12 MR. : Yeah, but, and again, higher. 13 Yes. The lieutenants and higher. 14 MR. : Not officers, though? 15 Lieutenants and higher. 16 MR. : Ask the question again. 17 MR. : So, who had knowledge 18 that the outdated camera system needed 19 replacing? 20 MR. : I wouldn't even say -. It 21 would have to be from the facility side, and 22 the upper management to say, yeah, we need to 23 do something. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : The cameras aren't -. You EFTA00112417 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 know, unless the lieutenant was looking, they 2 could see if it's a blurry camera, you know, 3 (Indiscernible *00:36:26). 4 MR. : And when I say you need 5 to replace them, I'm talking about specifically 6 not recording. So, my understanding is, also, 7 you could - looking at the screen, everything 8 was live monitoring, but nothing was recording. 9 MR. : Correct. So, and I can 10 explain that to you. So, back in the day, some 11 of them still, right now, we're still in the 12 process of changing everything over. So, a 13 camera would go to a multi-plexer. That's not 14 a recording device. So, that's a device that 15 splits multiple cameras into multiple images. 16 Then from there, it would go to - then it would 17 go out, and into the recorder. So, yes, you 18 would never know - sitting in the lieutenant's 19 office, or in control, because that's where our 20 multi-monitors are - you would never know that 21 a camera was down. 22 MR. : How would you know that a 23 camera wasn't recording? 24 MR. : You would have to go into 25 NICE - that's the computer system - every day, EFTA00112418 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 and look and see if there's a red X on any of 2 the cameras, then check the recorders and see 3 if any of the recorders went down. 4 MR. : And who would be able to 5 get into NICE? 6 MR. : So, NICE should - I don't 7 know who had access back then - your 8 lieutenants, SIS, the Comtechs, computer 9 services, the warden. 10 MR. : So, if they went in, all 11 of these people went in, and there's a red X, 12 they would know it wasn't recording? 13 MR. : Yes. Yeah. A red X. 14 MR. : And from going into NICE, 15 can you take down any of the cameras and stop 16 them from recording? 17 MR. : No. You would need to have a 18 site ability -. No, not The access that 19 those people have, no. 20 MR. : So, by looking at those 21 cameras, you could see, it wasn't recording. 22 But they couldn't actually stop it from 23 recording from that system. 24 MR. : No. No. Not with the rights 25 that they should be given, no. EFTA00112419 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 MR. : Someone, though, would be 2 able to (Indiscernible *00:38:19)? 3 MR. : The comtechs would have, 4 like, site builder, and you could take a camera 5 offline and online. 6 MR. : As far as recording and 7 not recording? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Okay. So, only 10 would have been, at the time, then? 11 MR. : Correct. And maybe computer 12 services because, at one time, he was a 13 Comtech. 14 MR. : And who is -- 15 MR. : I don't know. 16 MR. : -- computer services? 17 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. 18 *00:38:34). 19 MR. -: . And how do you 20 spell that? 21 MR. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : That's his last name? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Do you know his first name, EFTA00112420 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 offhand? 2 MR. : I think it starts with ar 3 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:45). 4 MR. : And he -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. -- still works there? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Is he in III? 10 MR. : He's computer services. 11 MR. : Computer services, and 12 which -- 13 MR. : Manager. 14 MR. : -- previous Comtech -- 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : -- prior to 17 MR. Mm-hmm. I think they might 18 have even worked together, at one point. 19 MR. : Okay. So, those two were 20 probably the only people that could have 21 potentially accessed the actual system itself? 22 MR. : Again, yes. 23 MR. : And taken the camera 24 offline? 25 MR. : Whoever is a Comtech, then EFTA00112421 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 they have those administrative rights, site 2 build, just different levels, or different 3 programs. 4 MR. : And is that the way - if 5 someone wanted to take it offline - is that the 6 way to do it, or would have they had to 7 physically gone into the SIS lieutenant's 8 office and done something in there? 9 MR. : Either way. 10 MR. : Either way it could have? 11 Okay. 12 MR. : I had a follow up on that. 13 MR. : Go ahead. 14 MR. : When they call, let's say, 15 they were calling the contractor to come for 16 cameras going down, could the contractor access 17 our system remotely -- 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : -- to check on it? They would 20 physically have to be in here? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Do you know if our system was 23 hooked up to be -- 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : -- networked? (Indiscernible EFTA00112422 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 *00:39:47) look at it? 2 MR. : No. Not at that time. 3 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:39:47). 4 Okay. Okay. 5 MR. : That's too old of a system. 6 The newer system, different story. r 7 MR. : But they would have to be 8 manually here? 9 MR. : No. Now, they could - now, 10 people could see it, central office and the 11 region. Because now, it's hooked up to the 12 LAN. 13 MR. : On that same note, if someone 14 accessed the system, is there a database that 15 keeps track of who accessed it? 16 MR. : I don't -. That's above me. 17 I don't -. That would be more of SIGNET would 18 be able to tell you that. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Software. 21 MR. : Okay. So, that -. 22 MR. : I would guess yes, but I'm 23 not 100 percent sure. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : So, back to the knowledge EFTA00112423 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 of the outdated camera system, and who knew it 2 needed to be replaced. You said it was 3 basically, like, above the lieutenants? 4 MR. : Yeah, because the money comes 5 from the region. So, in 2018, they got a 6 camera project. So, the project is a request. 7 Sometimes, it's a request from the warden, and 8 it goes up to the RD, asking for whatever the 9 project is. Or central office or the region 10 just says, here, it's time for an upgrade due 11 to age, or problems, or too much money you're 12 putting in for it. So, it's either way, it can 13 go. 14 MR. : All right. So, by, in 15 this case, I guess, the reason why I'm asking 16 is, who in our institution, prior to August 9th 17 or 10th, would have known that there were 18 issues with the camera system? 19 MR. : The warden would have to 20 know. 21 MR. : The warden. AWs? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : The captain? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Any of the lieutenants? EFTA00112424 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Ops Lieutenants? Activities lieutenants? 2 MR. : Yeah. I don't think they 3 would -. 4 MR. : Okay. And then, 5 facilities? 6 MR. : Maybe they knew from hearing 7 something, but they wouldn't be part of a 8 planned -. 9 MR. : Yeah. I'm not talking 10 about procuring something. What I'm talking 11 about is, like, who knew that there was 12 problems with the cameras? 13 MR. : So then, that's anybody can 14 know. 15 MR. : So, anybody never would 16 have probably knew that there was problems with 17 the camera system? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. But certainly, the 20 warden, and the AWs, and the captain, and 21 facilities knew that it needed to be replaced? 22 MR. : Correct. 23 MR. : And that there was a plan 24 in place, you said? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00112425 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 MR. : All right. And what was 2 the plan to get it? So, you said in 2019 -- 3 MR. : '18. 4 MR. : '18, sorry, what, did 5 the bid start? (Indiscernible *00:42:01). 6 MR. : The contract was awarded. 7 MR. : The contract was awarded. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : To who? 10 MR. : I don't even remember. I 11 wasn't here then. But there was -. When I got 12 here, October of '19 is when I finally 13 straightened out some issues with wire issues, 14 and something, and we started to get in the 15 ball really rolling on cameras. 16 MR. : Okay. So, a contract was 17 awarded to a specific contractor? 18 MR. : Yeah. It was a distributor, 19 at that point. It wasn't someone to -. So, we 20 were all doing it in-house. We were just 21 getting the material. So, the wire, anything 22 needed for the jobs, the cameras. 23 MR. : And you're doing it all 24 in-house? You were just -? Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. Partial was done in- EFTA00112426 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 house. Part was the contractor was going to 2 come. So, the original thing was, prior to 3 August, was - in the (Indiscernible *00:42:52) 4 - was, we were going to run all the wires to 5 every location, and then, the contractor, 6 SIGNET, was going to come and install the 7 cameras. 8 MR. : Okay. Cool. I guess, 9 can we just add to this, then, any kind of, 10 like, when has solicitation went out, and what, 11 you know, when that was awarded? Because this 12 is something - again - the higher ups are 13 wanting to know, you know, who knows? Was there 14 a system in place to get something? Did senior 15 management know? Who knew and when? These are 16 all those questions that we're getting, as far 17 as, like -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- they want to know 20 specifically what was going on with this camera 21 system. 22 MR. : No problem. 23 MR. : And, you know? Did 24 ever ask for a new camera system, at any time? 25 MR. : I'm sure he did. He was -. EFTA00112427 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 That was one thing he was - that, and the fire 2 alarm - are the two things. 3 MR. : That he was always 4 talking about? 5 MR. : When I first got here. 6 MR. : That he was saying when 7 he -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 10 *00:43:44) -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- he mentioned it to you 13 prior to August 9th, we need a new one? 14 MR. : Well, yeah, we were -. Well, 15 at that time, we were already in the process of 16 doing it, from '18. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : But yeah. 19 MR. : And it sounds like it was 20 a slow process. Like, it was a process, but it 21 was on the back burner? 22 MR. : There was - he's the only - 23 he was the only Comtech. 24 MR. : Right. But I mean, 25 didn't you say, like, first you wanted to do EFTA00112428 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 this, and then you wanted to do this, and the 2 cameras were kind of, like, down the road? 3 MR. : Correct. In my mind, when I 4 first got here, the reason why I came here was 5 the infrastructure of heating and cooling. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : And yes, but he was the only 8 Comtech, that could be done conjunctionally, a 9 little task, too big of a task for one person. 10 And I wasn't able to focus directly on that, 11 until I got other things squared away with 12 temperature readings, and stuff like that. 13 MR. : So, prior to August 10th, 14 obviously, it became a priority. Prior to 15 August 10th, what was the plan for getting a 16 new camera system? 17 MR. : At that time, I don't even 18 think we had all the wires and stuff yet. I 19 don't know when we got all that, but it did 20 take a while. But once we got it, that's when 21 we started working on it. 22 MR. : Okay. Now, were new 23 wiring and stuff being - were they started at 24 all, replacing cameras, and things like that, 25 prior to August 10th? EFTA00112429 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 MR. : I don't think so, but I'm not 2 sure. 3 MR. : Okay. What actions 4 should have been taken on or around August 9th, 5 2010? Or sorry. August 9th, 2019. When 6 recognizes that the cameras were not working 7 properly, or recording? What should have he 8 done? 9 MR. : Tell his supervisor. 10 MR. : And should have he called 11 you on vacation, or should have he told 12 if he was acting? Who should have he 13 told? 14 MR. : Chain of command. So, he 15 should have told . If no results there, 16 move it up to the AW. And -. 17 MR. : So, the next person, 18 after , would have been the AW and that 19 would have been 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 22 appropriate action was taken? 23 MR. : I don't. 24 MR. : No. Okay. Before we go 25 onto Epstein, to finish this out, do you have EFTA00112430 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 anything more you want to talk to about on that 2 camera system? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : Prior to us moving that, 5 so, just because I showed you this, is this the 6 one and only camera you said that you knew that 7 was working in the SHU? 8 MR. : That's the only one I've 9 seen, yeah. 10 MR. : All right. Do you mind 11 just initial and dating that? It's just to say 12 that's what we're looking at. 13 MR. : How many cameras should have 14 been working? 15 MR. : I don't know off the top of 16 my head. 17 MR. : But your understanding that 18 there was one on every tier? 19 MR. : There was one 20 MR. : There was one -- 21 MR. : -- on, yes. 22 MR. : -- every range? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : So, there's one -- EFTA00112431 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Every range. 2 MR. : -- on every range. 3 MR. : Every range. Right. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : Six ranges. Six cameras. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:46:27) 8 four. 9 MR. : And is your understanding 10 that none of the ranges were -. None of the 11 cameras on any of the cameras were recording? 12 MR. : Right. Which, if they went, 13 if this went to a different recorder, and the 14 recorder went down, that is possible. So, if 15 you have four cameras, in this recorder, four 16 cameras in this recorder, and this recorder 17 goes down, you're going to lose the four 18 cameras here, but these, you'll see. 19 MR. : All right. So, that's 20 what I was going to ask, is: why would this one 21 have worked, and none of the others? Because 22 think there was something, like, ten cameras in 23 the SHU, and this is the only one that works. 24 How would -? 25 MR. : Because then that one was EFTA00112432 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 plugged into a different recorder. 2 MR. : Okay. So, whatever 3 recorder everyone else was on 4 MR. : Went down. 5 MR. : -- if those went down, 6 this one -- 7 MR. : Correct. 8 MR. : -- is up. 9 MR. : And there's 96 cameras to a 10 recorder. 11 MR. : Okay. Is that weird that 12 one camera of this, you know, if there were ten 13 cameras, one was on one recorder, and nine were 14 on another? Is that odd? 15 MR. : It's - no. I see where 16 you're going -. No. Because it all depends on 17 when you placed them in. So, usually, if, you 18 know, you're doing, let's say this area, you're 19 going to take all your wires, and you're going 20 to plug it into next slots, as you're going. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : So, yeah. Eventually, if 23 we're still in the same area, and this is the 24 last camera, you're going to plug it in - and 25 the recorder fills up - you're going to plug it EFTA00112433 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 into the next recorder, and keep on going. 2 MR. : Gotcha. So, it's not, 3 like, you would take everything out, and put it 4 with -- 5 MR. : Correct. 6 MR. : -- you know, the -- 7 MR. : Correct. 8 MR. : -- because it may have 9 been, like -- 10 MR. : Because sometimes you can't. 11 Right. 12 MR. : -- that may have been, 13 like, the latest and greatest camera, or 14 something? 15 MR. : Correct. Or it could have 16 been an after thought of adding that camera, 17 and then, it's all the way at the bottom. 18 MR. : Great. All right. What 19 is your understanding of what happened to 20 Epstein on August 9th and 10th, 2019? 21 MR. : Suicide was committed. 22 MR. : Okay. What is your 23 understanding of how he died? 24 MR. : Suicide. 25 MR. : But by what means? EFTA00112434 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Oh. Strangulation. 2 MR. : Do you know if it was 3 hanging, or strangulation, or -? 4 MR. : Oh. Hanging. 5 MR. : Hanging. Do you have any 6 information with regard to any suspicious 7 activity that occurred on August 9th or 10th, 8 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in 9 his cell? 10 MR. : Say it again. 11 MR. : Do you have any 12 information with regard to any suspicious 13 activity that occurred on August 9th or 10th, 14 2019, leading up to the discovery -? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Okay. What do you know 17 about someone else taking Epstein's life? 18 MR. : I don't know. 19 MR. : And what do you know 20 about other's assisting with taking Epstein's 21 life? 22 MR. : Don't know. 23 MR. : Did Epstein take his own 24 life? 25 MR. : I don't know. EFTA00112435 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : You don't know? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Is it your understanding, 4 though? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Did Epstein act alone in 7 taking his own life? 8 MR. : I would be under the 9 assumption, yes. 10 MR. : Okay. Did you have any 11 involvement with Epstein's death? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : Did you have any 14 involvement with the cameras going down within 15 the MCC? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : What would have prevented 18 Epstein's death? That is, what actions should 19 have been taken to prevent his death? 20 MR. : After he -. 21 MR. : After hearing what you 22 know, and being in the position that you know, 23 what do you believe -? 24 MR. : Rounds and doing their job. 25 MR. : So, you heard that they EFTA00112436 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 weren't conducting rounds, they weren't 2 conducting counts? 3 MR. : That's what I heard. 4 MR. : The SHU staff. 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. And on that note, 7 what would have prevented the camera systems 8 from going down, as they did on or around 9 August 9th, 2019? 10 MR. : Maintenance. Money. I mean, 11 there's a whole, you know, upkeep of all the 12 enough staff to be able to tasked with every 13 job. 14 MR. : So, should have - of 15 was the only Comtech - should have been 16 more than one Comtech? 17 MR. : Yes. 100 percent. 18 MR. : So, we were way 19 understaffed here at the MCC? 20 MR. : Yeah. At that point. 21 MR. : All right. So, should 22 have there been someone that, if he was leaving 23 at 2:00 p.m., should have there been another 24 person that basically was from the 2:00 to 25 10:00 shift? EFTA00112437 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 MR. : Not even that. Just at least 2 multiple bodies. Two or three. You have them. 3 There's multiple -. It's not just cameras that 4 they work on. 5 MR. : And how many people are 6 in that Comtech position now? 7 MR. : Two. 8 MR. : All right. And you said 9 it's and who else? 10 MR. •. 11 MR. -. . . All right. 12 But he wasn't here at the time? 13 MR. : He was here, in III. 14 MR. : But not -- 15 MR. : Not as a Comtech. 16 MR. : -- gotcha. Is there 17 anything that you see, as far as being a 18 Comtech, that he did either right or wrong, on 19 that August 9th, 2019? 20 MR. : Yeah. As long as he told the 21 next person, then he did what he could. Did he 22 call the contractor on the 9th? 23 MR. : We're going to find out. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I thought he told us that EFTA00112438 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he -- 2 MR. : That's what he said. 3 MR. : -- called a supervisor 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- but I don't think he 6 called you. I don't think he called 7 MR. -: 8 MR. 9 MR. : -- right. 10 MR. : So. 11 MR. : So, yes. So, if he did what 12 he's saying, then I don't believe there's 13 think he tried to fix the issue. 14 MR. : Okay. Any questions on 15 that? 16 MR. : You mentioned - I mean, 17 might have misheard it - you mentioned that, 18 back then, if the (Indiscernible *00:51:33) 19 goes down, that would not have triggered work, 20 a work order or something like that. It would 21 just be the cameras going down itself. That 22 would have triggered it? 23 MR. : No, no. So, when you have a 24 plumbing issue, or a light, camera, you go on 25 the computer, TMS EFTA00112439 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- and you put a work order, 3 or that person, if it's your office, you would 4 put the work order in, or your department, you 5 would have someone that put a work order in. 6 What I'm saying is, if a hard drive goes down, 7 nine out of ten, the comtechs, whoever it is, 8 will change it, and a work order is never going 9 to get put in. We would never know. Even 10 though we should because I should be accounting 11 for that item, dollar-wise. So, we know what 12 we're spending, we know there's time to the 13 person, and there's money, cost to that job. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : To understand where our time 16 is, and money. As much as I enforce it, it 17 does, it gets hectic and people forget, or just 18 don't do it. And me, as a supervisor, have to 19 stay on top of them, to keep on reminding them 20 to do that. We have gotten much, much, much 21 better on that. But a camera going down, 22 especially now that I do it on emails and 23 everything, it's easier to track, because every 24 day, I'm watching it. 25 MR. : The last question. As far as EFTA00112440 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 you know, is that the first time that the hard 2 drives ever went down? 3 MR. : Here? 4 MR. : Yeah. Here. On August 9th, 5 that's when -. 6 MR. : I don't know if they went 7 down. I was too new, at that point. But was I 8 told, ever? Yes. I believe I was told that 9 that does happen. And I know because I've 10 worked in Brooklyn, with the same type of 11 system. So, as it gets older, the hard drives 12 do start going bad. 13 MR. : And there were no -. Were 14 there any redundancies in place to make sure 15 that the failure doesn't happen? 16 MR. : There is until two - if two 17 hard drives fail, then the recorder shuts down. 18 MR. : And this is -. 19 MR. : So, only one hard drive, 20 it'll still - that's where your -. It'll still 21 work. The second one goes, then the whole 22 system goes down. 23 MR. : And in this case, which ones 24 went down? Do you know? 25 MR. : I don't know. EFTA00112441 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. Okay. 2 MR. : I don't even know if 3 recorders did go down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : You know, it's only what I 6 was told. And if I'm -. I can't remember 100 7 percent if it was I know the recorders went 8 down. If it was because of the hard drive, I 9 don't remember that. Specifically. 10 MR. : Now, were you told not to 11 look into the issue? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : No? Do you think that 14 it's something that you should have looked 15 into, then, a little more, as far as what 16 happened there, or why aren't these recorders, 17 or why aren't these cameras recording, and why 18 half of the cameras in the MCC were down? 19 MR. : I don't remember exactly, how 20 quick they seized the recorders. And that 21 might have been the reason why I wasn't able to 22 - because if I remember correctly, we got a new 23 system -. 24 MR. : Yeah, and I don't even 25 mean you physically going in. I mean, just EFTA00112442 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 talking to about it. 2 MR. : I did talk to about, 3 asking -. I'm sure I've asked him what 4 happened. At some point, I had to. I can't 5 remember the exact - and I'm usually good at 6 remembering things - I just can't remember 7 exactly talking to him specifically right at 8 this time. 9 MR. : So, when you, like, read, 10 like, the news reports about, like, oh, you 11 know, there's definitely outside involvement or 12 internal involvement -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. with regards to these 15 cameras and stuff, it doesn't, like, spark any 16 recollection -- 17 MR. : No. No. 18 MR. : -- of, like, well, i 19 talked to my camera guy, and I know this? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : No? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : No. And again, at sone 25 point, I do - after talking a lot more - I do EFTA00112443 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 remember something. It's very vague on -. 2 Again, you have to remember, there was in 3 short instance, the camera system was taken 4 from us twice. So, I could be confusing the 5 gun issue with the Epstein. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : That's why I don't want to 8 misspeak and say the wrong thing. I'm trying 9 to remember as much as I can about what 10 happened August of 2019. 11 MR. : Right. Because was it 12 that other action, incident you're talking 13 about actually happened in August of 2019, as 14 well, didn't it? 15 MR. : February. 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : No? No. 18 MR. : February. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Oh, okay. So, it wasn't 22 too close. But they were both taken. Okay. 23 Did you have access to that NICE system? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : No? So, just those two EFTA00112444 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 people? 2 MR. : Yeah. Well, yeah, and that, 3 at that point, you would have to ask who 4 had rights to NICE at that time. Because 5 don't even know if the lieutenants - the SIS, 6 I'm almost positive, did. 7 MR. : And they would be able to 8 take a camera off? 9 MR. : No. No, no, no, no. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, and 11 that's all I mean. I mean -- 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- access, not to be able 14 to view it. But to be able to -- 15 MR. : Oh, yeah. 16 MR. : -- take the -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- anybody that would be 19 able to take -- 20 MR. : That would be -- 21 MR. : -- take that off. 22 MR. -- yeah, that would have to 23 be at a installer level. 24 MR. : And that's what I mean by 25 the two people, I think you said, do you think EFTA00112445 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 you said -- 2 MR. -: and was 3 the Comtech. And again, I don't know if he had 4 rights to it or not. He wasn't a Comtech when 5 I got here. 6 MR. : Okay. Anything we're 7 missing on that camera system issue? 8 MR. : No. I - again - I wish I 9 could remember. I'm burnt out over this. It's 10 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 12 MR. : -- this is -. But I'll find 13 out the two issues, the two things, and put you 14 in contact with the contractor. 15 MR. : Awesome. Yeah, if we can 16 follow up with that. I know you need to get 17 out of here today. So, if we're going to be 18 back here tomorrow, and if it's something that 19 20 MR. : That's -. Yeah. 21 MR. : -- again, it's going to 22 You would know what to ask, too, if you're 23 while we're busy, so we're not tying you up - 24 if you're able to just call that contractor and 25 say, can you give us all that stuff? By all EFTA00112446 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 means, that would be very helpful. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And then, we could just 4 get it from you rather than talk to them 5 because if you're - especially, if you have a 6 relationship with them, and you know their 7 numbers and all that kind of stuff, you know, 8 we're just looking for, like, you know, 9 whatever, whatever contact was made, 10 specifically with the MCC, whomever, to 11 them about having these issues, or, you know, 12 that kind of stuff. 13 MR. : Okay. So, the solicitation, 14 the paperwork. I have a whole file, and I can 15 get that and make copies of it. 16 MR. : Fantastic. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Yeah. That would be 19 hugely helpful, and we really appreciate it. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : You good? All right. We 22 can't thank you enough. Sorry to take more 23 time than we -- 24 MR. : No problem. 25 MR. : -- (Indiscernible EFTA00112447 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 *00:58:30). It took more time than we had anticipated. It's 3:16 p.m., Wednesday, August 4th, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent and I'm turning off the recorder. EFTA00112448 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00112449