EFTA00112538.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL MARCH 21, 2022 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00112538 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00112539 3 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 The recorder is now on. My name is 3 . I'm a Special Agent with the 4 U.S. Department of Justice Office of the 5 Inspector General New York Field Office and 6 these are my credentials. I don't know if you 7 can see it, Mr. . 8 MR. : I could see. 9 MR. : Okay. This interview with 10 former Federal Bureau of Prisons employee 11 is being conducted as part of an 12 official U.S. Department of Justice Office of 13 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 14 date is March 21, 2022. The time is 11:08 a.m. 15 This interview is being conducted via Zoom 16 videoconferencing as, Mr. , you're 17 currently in Kentucky; is that accurate? 18 MR. : Correct. 19 MR. : Also present is DOJ/OIG 20 Assistant Special Agent in Charge 21 . This interview will be recorded by 22 me, Special Agent . Could 23 everyone please identify themselves for the 24 record and spell your last name? To start 25 again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent EFTA00112540 4 1 . That's 2 MR. : I am Assistant Special 3 Agent in Charge with the 4 DOJ/OIG, , and these are my 5 credentials. 6 MR. : Received. 7 MR. : Mr. , can you please 8 identify yourself and spell your last name for 9 the record? 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah, my name is . I am a Junior on some documents, and I am a former employee of the DOJ Federal Bureau of Prisons and particular to this matter MCC New York. MR. : Thank you. This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into the events surrounding the death of Inmate Jeffrey Epstein and you're being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? MR. : Yes. MR. : Just for the record I did email you two forms prior to this interview, one was OIG Form 3-226-2, that is the Warnings and Assurances. And the other form is OIG Form EFTA00112541 5 1 3-226/10A, which would be the Non-Disclosure 2 Agreement, and you signed - you read both of 3 them, signed them, but for the record I'm going 4 to read them to you and let's start off with 5 the Warnings and Assurances form. 6 The United - the form states: The United 7 States Department of Justice Office of 8 Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to 9 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 10 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 11 provide information as part of an investigation 12 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 13 General. 14 This investigation is being conducted 15 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 16 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 17 performance failure and security failure. This 18 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 19 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 20 action will be taken against you if you choose 21 not to answer questions. Any statement you 22 wish to - you furnish may be used as evidence 23 in any future criminal proceedings or agency 24 disciplinary proceeding or both. 25 The waiver states I understand the EFTA00112542 6 1 warnings and assurances stated above and I am 2 willing to make a statement and answer 3 questions. No promises or threats have been 4 made to and no pressure or coercion of any kind 5 has been used against me. 6 Mr. , you've read the form? 7 MR. : Yes, I have. 8 MR. : You understand the form and 9 you agree to move forward with the interview? 10 MR. : Yes, I do. 11 MR. : And you've already signed the 12 form and you sent it back to me and myself and 13 -- 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Correct. MR. : -- ASAC will sign the document after the interview. The second form states: Department of Justice Office of Inspector General Non-Disclosure Agreement. I, , understand that the Department of Justice Office of Inspector General OIG will allow me to review certain documents in connection with my remote interview with the OIG on March 21, 2022, in order to facilitate that remote interview. A copy of the documents shown to me during my interview with the OIG EFTA00112543 7 1 labeled OIG Documents will be made part of the 2 OIG record of that interview. 3 As a condition of being granted access to 4 review the OIG interview documents, I agree not 5 to make an audio or video recording of the 6 interview, excuse me, and I also agree that 7 until the OIG's final report or a summary of 8 the final report is released to the public I 9 will not copy, photograph, discuss, or disclose 10 any information from or about the OIG interview 11 documents I review to anyone other than the 12 OIG, my attorney if I have legal counsel who 13 also executes a non-disclosure agreement with 14 terms similar to this agreement, or other 15 specifically authorized by the OIG after any 16 such person executes a non-disclosure agreement 17 with terms similar to this agreement. 18 I further agree that even after the OIG's 19 final report or a summary of the final report 20 is released to the public I will not discuss or 21 disclose any information from or about the OIG 22 interview documents that are not contained in 23 or that are redacted from the publicly released 24 final report or summary of the final report. 25 These provisions are consistent with and EFTA00112544 8 1 do not supersede, conflict with, or otherwise 2 alter the employee obligations, rights, or 3 liabilities created by existing statute or 4 Executive order relating to (1) classified 5 information, (2) communications to Congress, 6 (3) the reporting to an Inspector General or 7 the office of special counsel of a violation of 8 any law, rule, or regulation, or mismanagement, 9 a gross waste of funds, an abuse of authority, 10 or a substantial and specific danger to public 11 health or safety, or (4) any other 12 whistleblower protection. The definitions, 13 requirements, obligations, rights, sanctions, 14 and liabilities created by controlling 15 Executive order and statutory provisions are 16 incorporate into this agreement and are 17 controlling. 18 Mr. , do you understand that non- 19 disclosure order? 20 MR. : I do. 21 MR. : And you already read the 22 document, you signed it, and you've dated it. 23 Thank you for that. 24 MR. : You're welcome. 25 MR. : Before I start the interview EFTA00112545 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. : What is your date of birth? 17 MR. : 11/17/1974. 18 MR. : And what's your Social 19 Security Number? 20 MR. •. . 21 MR. : Thank you. What is your 22 current cellphone number? 23 MR. : Area code-. 24 MR. : Okay. What's your current 25 what's your highest level of education? 9 I would like to place you under oath. Mr. can you please raise your right hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview? MR. : I do. MR. : Thank you. You can put your hand down. Please let me know if you do not - if you don't understand any questions and I'll try to repeat it or rephrase it for you. MR. : Sure. MR. : So we'll start with your background. What is your current home address? MR. : My current home address is and that's in EFTA00112546 10 1 MR. : Currently in college still 2 pursuing a bachelor's degree. 3 MR. : Which college? 4 MR. : Probably about a semester ago 5 I was in Champlain College all online out of 6 Burlington, Vermont, and I just recently 7 transferred Gateway Community Technical College 8 right here in my hometown of Kentucky. 9 MR. : And what are you pursuing 10 your bachelor's degree in? 11 MR. : Liberal arts, yeah. 12 MR. : Do you have an associate's 13 degree? 14 MR. : Credit wise, yes, but 15 formerly, no. 16 MR. : And what did you do prior to 17 working for the BOP? 18 MR. : Prior to the BOP I was a 19 truck driver delivering fuel, oil, and stuff 20 like that. And prior to that I was down in 21 North Carolina where I was a correctional 22 officer for the State of North Carolina, which 23 is what got me my job into the BOP, my 24 experience. 25 MR. : Okay. So from - since high EFTA00112547 11 1 school - from high school you started working 2 for the North Carolina BOP or did you do other 3 jobs before that? 4 MR. : Oh, from high school I --. 5 MR. : Various jobs? 6 MR. : Man of many - I - man of many 7 trades. I can't even count how many jobs I've 8 had, but my main career out of everything was 9 truck driving. I was pretty much a truck 10 driver. I drove all kinds of trucks and stuff 11 like that. Then when I met my current wife 12 back in '08 we had moved to North Carolina to 13 be by her family and that's when I acquired a 14 job with the North Carolina Department of 15 Corrections, and then I was down there for two 16 years and did that. 17 We moved back to New York, which is where 18 I went back to driving truck again while I was 19 in the hiring process for the Bureau of 20 Prisons. And then I ended up getting hired 21 with the Bureau of Prisons in November of 2011, 22 and I started at MDC Brooklyn. 23 MR. : How long were you at MDC 24 Brooklyn for? 25 MR. : Right around two years and EFTA00112548 12 1 then I transferred down to FCI Estill in South 2 Carolina, and I was there for about two years 3 or so, got promoted to General Foreman and 4 transferred out to FCC Hazelton, which is a 5 complex out in West Virginia, Bruceton Mills, 6 and I did a little over a year there and came 7 out to MCC New York in December of 2016 is when 8 I got to New York. 9 MR. : Was that your first --? 10 MR. : Basically, worked - what's 11 that? 12 MR. : Sorry. Was that your first 13 time at MCC? 14 MR. : Yes. Yep. 15 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 16 MR. : I worked at all three - the 17 worst three prisons in the Bureau of Prisons. 18 MR. : So with the BOP, once you got 19 to MCC in 2016 is that where you spent the rest 20 of your career with BOP at MCC? 21 MR. : It was. I was there - I got 22 there in December of 2016, I think it was right 23 before Christmas and my last day on the job was 24 Valentine's Day of 2019. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00112549 13 : And I was there for that of time as a General Foreman. : You --. : Now was that February 14, That's correct. : Okay. Thank you. Yeah. 9 : Do you recall your EOD date 10 BOP, exact date by any chance? 11 : Yeah, November 6, 2011. 12 : Okay. And when did you 13 from BOP training? 14 : I would have to look that up. 15 : It's okay. If you don't 16 it, don't worry about that. We just - 17 it's generic question we ask. 18 MR. : I was there for Super Bowl, 19 so if I got hired in November and I was in 20 Glynco for Super Bowl, I would say it had to 21 have been February of '20. No, I'm sorry, '12, 22 2012, yeah. 23 MR. : So when you started with the 24 MCC you said you were a general foreman and 25 that was your position up until when you 1 MR. 2 amount 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 2019? 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 MR. MR. with the MR. MR. graduate MR. MR. remember EFTA00112550 14 1 separated from the MCC in February 14, 2019? 2 MR. : Correct. 3 MR. : Okay. And what is your - 4 after you left MCC, what is your current title 5 and what agency do you work for? 6 MR. : I currently work for the 7 General Services Administration Public Building 8 Services, and I am a Building Manager. 9 MR. : Okay. While you were at the 10 MCC as a general foreman, was that your title 11 in 2018 and 2019? 12 MR. : General foreman was the 13 internal kind of phrase. I think the position 14 title officially OPM was Maintenance Mechanic 15 Supervisor. 16 MR. : Hold on, let me write that. 17 MR. : And I was WS-4749, Grade 14, 18 Step Five. 19 MR. : So official title is 20 Maintenance Mechanic Supervisor? 21 MR. : Correct. 22 MR. : And who did you report to? 23 MR. : The facility manager. 24 MR. : Who was the facility manager 25 at that point? EFTA00112551 15 1 MR. -. . . 2 MR. : And when did Mr. - my 3 understanding is Mr. retired from MCC. 4 When did he - according to your recollection, 5 when did he retire from the MCC? 6 MR. : I would probably have to say 7 - I don't know the exact dates because his exit 8 was kind of unique. He didn't actually 9 initially retire; he went out on some kind of 10 other type of leave and eventually it's to my 11 understanding he ended up retiring. But when 12 he had went out all communication stopped with 13 everybody with him. Nobody - he never kept in 14 touch with anybody. He never reached out. But 15 16 MR. : When was that? 17 MR. : -- I really don't know what - 18 hey, I don't know his exact date, but I would 19 probably want to say that I was there for 20 almost maybe just under or right around or 21 another year after he had left. I don't think 22 it was that much because there was several 23 other people locally that had filled in 24 including me for his position. 25 MR. : So you recall that other EFTA00112552 16 1 people filled in his position while he was gone 2 while you were still there? 3 MR. : Correct. 4 MR. : Okay. So do you believe he 5 left in 2019 or 2018? 6 MR. : I really honestly couldn't 7 tell you. I do remember --. 8 MR. : I think what is 9 trying to ask is not his official retirement 10 date but around when did he leave the MCC and 11 communication with him stopped. I think you 12 said -- 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : -- it was approximately a 15 year before you left? 16 MR. : Yeah. The only thing I can 17 tell you - I don't really know the dates. The 18 only thing I know from what I recall is Mr. 19 had just went to Denver, Colorado, for 20 some kind of facilities manager conference 21 training and he had never returned back to the 22 institution once he went to that training or 23 conference or whatever it was. It had 24 something to do with facility managers all 25 going out there. And all I know is that when EFTA00112553 17 1 he went out there, he went there for a week or 2 so, and he never returned to the institution 3 after that. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : It was . 6 MR. : Do you know why he left, 7 what happened? 8 MR. : I have no idea. I have no 9 idea. I couldn't tell you. I mean, there was 10 a lot of rumors, but I just know that when he 11 went to that training, it was like he went home 12 after that. He never came back to the 13 institution or that conference, whatever. 14 MR. : Now, do you know if it 15 was personal reasons, medical, or 16 administrative? 17 MR. : I have no idea why he didn't 18 come back although he did make medical issues 19 known to us on the job, that he had some 20 medical issues. 21 MR. : Okay. And you said a few 22 people filled in the position. So his title 23 you said was Facility Manager, right? And 24 what, was he your direct supervisor? 25 MR. : He was, yep. EFTA00112554 18 1 MR. : Okay. And who does the 2 facility manager report to? 3 MR. : The Associate Warden of 4 Operations. 5 MR. : And who was Associate Warden 6 of Operations in end of 2018 if you recall? 7 MR. : So we had three in the time 8 that I was there, and I believe worked 9 under all three of them. So there was 10 , , and then the last 11 one that was there prior to me leaving was 12 or . They called him 13 but I believe his real name was . 14 MR. •. , okay. 15 MR. : All three of them had 16 performed - they were the AWO they call it, AW 17 of Operations, which oversaw the Facilities 18 Department, and that's who the facility manager 19 directly reported to. 20 MR. : Okay. And when Mr. 21 left the MCC and that's not when he retired, 22 let me clarify this, this is when he stepped 23 away for leave purposes, do you recall who took 24 over for him initially? 25 MR. : Yeah. So the warden at the EFTA00112555 19 1 time which I can't remember which one it was 2 because there was so much staff that came and 3 went throughout this whole thing, that one time 4 it was the executive assistant who was told to 5 oversee the department, and then at another 6 time the AW oversaw the department. 7 MR. : When you say "executive 8 assistant" -- 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:17:56). 10 MR. : -- who was that? 11 MR. • 12 MR. : So he oversaw it for a little 13 bit? 14 MR. : He did, yes. 15 MR. : Okay. And then who was the 16 next person? 17 MR. 18 . He was told to oversee it. And then 19 there was a little bit of a stint where, you 20 know, I could just informally absorbed a lot of 21 his job duties just to get the department 22 functioning, but I was never actually promoted 23 or paid or anything like that that actually - I 24 was never formally designated as acting or 25 anything like that, I just had to do some of EFTA00112556 20 1 the facility manager functions in order to have 2 the department operational. 3 So I would get my go-ahead for - to do 4 those functions. They would - they oversaw it 5 or approved by either or 6 at the time. 7 MR. : So they gave you the go-ahead 8 and you went ahead and completed the functions. 9 Do you recall when exactly this time period was 10 when you acted? 11 MR. : I wasn't really designate - 12 I wasn't really acting, I was just - if I had 13 to do - if I had to get something done that a 14 facility manager would normally have to do, I 15 would just go to the - whatever time period it 16 was, if was over the department or 17 if was over the department, I would 18 have to go to them and say, "Hey, listen, can I 19 go ahead and do this? Can you give me the 20 approval, sign off on it?" and then I would 21 actually do the act. 22 MR. : Okay. Bear with me a second. 23 Let's see. Maybe this might help -- I have a 24 SigNet contract here, right? And it's multiple 25 questions will be on the SigNet contract -- EFTA00112557 21 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- and bear with me. I'm 3 going to see if I can share my screen here. 4 This document that I'm showing you, can you see 5 it? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Why is this - how about now? 8 MR. : I got something coming up. 9 Yep, I could see it. 10 MR. : Okay. So this document that 11 I'm showing you is - it says, "MCC New York." 12 It says, "Solicitation Contract Order for 13 Commercial Items Offered to Complete Blocks 12, 14 17, 23, 24, and 30." 15 MR. : Yep. 16 MR. : And it says, "Requisition 17 Number 1064-18." 18 MR. : Yep. 19 MR. : This is just for the record. 20 I'm just reading it, just the top part, so we 21 know which document this is. The Contract 22 Number states GS-07F as in Frank-0322T, and the 23 Award Effective Date is 09/21/2018. Do you 24 recall -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00112558 22 1 MR. : -- this document at all? 2 MR. : I don't see that document, 3 no. 4 MR. : See over here. 5 MR. : But it's not under the 6 facility manager one. I don't recall ever 7 putting my eyes on the document. 8 MR. : This is part - Section 15. 9 You see over here? 10 MR. : Correct. 11 MR. : And it's - it's says 12 "Delivered to Federal Bureau of Prisons MCC New 13 York" and lists you as a point of contact. 14 MR. : Correct. 15 MR. : Now, if we scroll down a bit. 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : We're going to scroll down to 18 Page 6 on this document. 19 MR. : Correct. 20 MR. : It lists you as the 21 facilities manager. Does this jog your memory 22 at all? 23 MR. : I do. I was always - when 24 had left, I was pretty much assumed the 25 facilities manager. Like I said, I was never EFTA00112559 23 1 formally promoted or even temporarily entered 2 that position, nor was I ever designated as 3 acting. So the fact that that says facility 4 manager, I don't know why or who put that there 5 because I was always a general foreman. I was 6 never, ever in the role of a facility or with 7 full title, whether temporary or permanent, was 8 never a facility manager. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : 11 MR. : 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : I was never even formally designated as acting, they just pretty much said, "There's no facility manager, Jeff is next in the chain of command," so they just referred to me as it. That's what I'm assuming whoever typed this up. MR. : I know it's been about three, four years. I know it's kind of tough remembering some of this stuff, that's why we trying to pull - we try to pull documents where we believe it could help you. MR. : Right. MR. : I know we have an email. I don't know if this will help a little bit too. EFTA00112560 24 1 This email right here, it says "Regarding 2 forward cameras from to Anthony 3 Pedone." Who is that? 4 MR. : He was, I believe, the 5 supervisor of the SIS Department at the time. 6 MR. : And was --. 7 MR. : He was like the lead SIS 8 investigator. 9 MR. : Okay. And then we have 10 , who is that? 11 MR. : He was a communications 12 technician that I supervised in the Facilities 13 Department. 14 MR. : And we have . Was 15 that the executive assistant that you mentioned 16 before? 17 MR. : Oh, correct, yep. 18 MR. : And this is dated January 4, 19 2019. 20 MR. : Correct, yep. 21 MR. : And we'll go through the 22 email, but it says on the bottom, it says 23 . Is that - that's your signature, CESCO 24 General Foreman-Acting Facility Manager? 25 MR. : Correct. EFTA00112561 25 1 MR. : So I know this is in January 2 4th. I know you mentioned you were always under 3 the title of General Foreman, but you were also 4 not officially acting, but you were still doing 5 the job. Does that help at all jog your 6 memory? 7 MR. : Right. So an email went out 8 by the AW telling all the department heads that 9 when had left that I would be running 10 the Facilities Department until a replacement 11 was found, hence why I would assume the acting 12 part went into my signature line. 13 MR. : Got it. And do you know when 14 this email went out? 15 MR. : That looks like a month 16 before I left according to the date. 17 MR. : No, no, I meant - you said 18 there was an email that went out saying - from 19 the AW saying that you would be acting --. 20 MR. : Oh. Oh, yeah, I don't - I 21 couldn't - it'd have to have been - it was 22 shortly after - it might have even been from 23 the warden if I'm not mistaken, which was 24 , because I remember whatever happened 25 with down in Colorado and why he didn't EFTA00112562 26 1 come back I remember that the Warden 2 was very, very upset with whatever was going 3 on, and I just remember somebody, I can't 4 recall exactly who - came down to the 5 office, to my office, and spoke to me 6 personally and told me that he would like me to 7 just hold things down until they figure out 8 things, what was going to happen with , 9 and see what was going to happen. 10 And then I remember an email going out 11 telling all department heads that I would be - 12 to see me for any facilities-related issues -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- because was no 15 longer there. 16 MR. : Okay. So according to this 17 you were acting facility manager, but you were 18 general foreman, but you were acting at this 19 point. And so, on record is it possible from 20 the time that when Warden assigned you the 21 title to when you left were you the acting 22 facilities manager - facility manager? 23 MR. : So I don't - I would - 24 definitely not up until the time I left because 25 there was some butting of heads between me and EFTA00112563 27 1 and at times where they 2 overrode a lot of decisions that I made that 3 I'm normally supposed to make underneath my 4 title. So -- 5 MR. : Can you give us an example? 6 MR. : -- at the very, very end I 7 believe at the time was running the 8 department for the most part at the time that I 9 left. So it wasn't the whole entire time, it 10 was very sporadic. It was just constant change 11 of roles and responsibilities and - but I was 12 definitely at one point - like I said, it was 13 like a - it was just like an informal internal, 14 "Hey, this is . He's going to be the 15 facility manager until we figure out what's 16 going on," and they fill the position, which 17 they had not since I walked out the door. 18 MR. : So basically - my 19 understanding from what you're saying is on --. 20 MR. : But I guess what you would 21 say is during this time period I would be the 22 guy who would have - if anybody had any 23 questions or concerns involving this contract, 24 they would had to have I guess come to me, 25 yeah. EFTA00112564 28 1 MR. : Okay. Now, do you remember - 2 I know you mentioned that the previously. Tell 3 me, do you recall if there was an update or 4 upgrade of the camera system going on in - at 5 the MCC in 2018 or '19? 6 MR. : Prior to this right here? 7 MR. : Well, ignore this document 8 for a second. Give me - hold on, let me see. 9 We'll come back to that document. Do you 10 recall in general was there an upgrade 11 happening at the MCC for the camera system? 12 MR. : There was an upgrade that 13 started with 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : There was - from what I 16 understand there was camera issues well - going 17 way back well before I even got there, long 18 before even got there. They had 19 recorder and decoder issues. There was a whole 20 slew of things and I would assume - I would 21 imagine it was probably due to the age of the 22 institution and there was very little 23 infrastructure upgrades and updating and stuff 24 like that. But I remember prior to, you know, 25 me inheriting what started, there was EFTA00112565 29 1 all kind of issues with the cameras from what I 2 heard from internal communications and stuff 3 like that. 4 So started this program, this 5 project, at the request of higherups. I don't 6 really know the backdrop on that, that was in 7 between them. And then I really did not get 8 involved with it at all until he never came 9 back to work. He dropped off and then I just 10 picked up after him. 11 MR. : I kind of missed a key point 12 I wanted to ask. So as a - can you 13 differentiate the job duties between a facility 14 manager and the general foreman? 15 MR. : So basically, the facility 16 manager they keep track of the budget. They 17 authorize expenditures. They obviously 18 supervise me, and then I in turn supervise the 19 subordinate staff, the wage grade trade guys. 20 But basically, he handled the approval of 21 projects, you know, submitted approvals for 22 projects. He did, like, the five- and 10-year 23 plans for the facility, authorized all the 24 expenditures. He went ahead and sat in on all 25 the department head meetings to give executive EFTA00112566 30 1 staff briefings on what's going on in the 2 department, progress reports, stuff like that. 3 Listen to any concerns that they would have and 4 then he brings it back to us. 5 And in my job, my main job by title is 6 literally - I was in charge of supervising, 7 monitoring, and then the wage grade guys that 8 were below me because I was also wage grade. 9 The facility manager is a GS employee. I was a 10 WS employee just like the rest of the trade 11 guys. And my job was basically to supervise 12 them guys, assign them work, make sure they 13 were coming and going in the facility with the 14 inmates, make sure that they were handling 15 their tools and all that other stuff. I did 16 their performance evaluations and all that 17 other stuff. And the facility manager pretty 18 much did all that on me. 19 So he was my supervisor. He would 20 evaluate me, you know, keep track of my time 21 and all that other stuff. And that's pretty 22 much it. 23 MR. : Who were some of the 24 employees that reported to you? You said the 25 wage employees. Who were the employees that EFTA00112567 31 1 reported to you? 2 MR. : In the Facility Department it 3 was the trade specific wage guys, so you had 4 the communications technicians, engineering 5 technicians, carpenters, plumbers, 6 electricians, HVAC guys. And then each one of 7 those tradesmen have a cadre of inmates that 8 work for them, so I would go ahead - work 9 orders would come in from all departments, you 10 know, requests, "Hey, can you change a light 11 bulb? Can you unclog the toilet here?" I 12 would give that work order to the appropriate 13 trade guy and then he would take his group of 14 inmates and go out into the institution and fix 15 it and close out the work order, report back to 16 me. 17 MR. : Okay. Agent any 18 questions on that before I move forward with 19 the contracts? 20 MR. : Yes, I'm just writing 21 down some follow-up questions. So just - can 22 you just clarify again, when were you actually 23 the acting facilities manager? 24 MR. : It was whenever they wanted 25 me to be basically. It was sporadic and on and EFTA00112568 32 1 off, so --. 2 MR. : Yeah. I got it. You 3 said, like, when or departed 4 they put out an email and then we saw an email 5 that was from January of 2019 that said that 6 you were acting facilities manager but then you 7 said you weren't. 8 MR. : Well, it was in my signature 9 line the acting facility manager, so I think it 10 was just never - I think I rolled with that 11 since left. I think that acting part 12 just stayed in the signature line. But there 13 was -- 14 MR. : After they made the 15 notification that you were the acting facility 16 manager, did they ever tell you that you were 17 not the acting facility manager? 18 MR. : Yeah, that's why I was saying 19 it was - I bumped heads with executive staff 20 sometimes because I thought a lot of the 21 decisions that they were making weren't in the 22 best interest of the facility at the time. And 23 when I say that I mean, like, infrastructure 24 stuff, you know. And I kind of like - they 25 didn't like the way I prioritized certain EFTA00112569 33 1 things within the department. 2 So there was some conflicts every now and 3 again and that's why the warden would go ahead 4 and say, "Okay. Hey, III, you know what, 5 you're overseeing the Facilities Department 6 now. Have report to you." And then they 7 also did the same thing with at one 8 point where he came in, which was right around 9 the thing and where he was told that he 10 was going to go ahead and - so they were like 11 dual role. They were pretty much - your 12 executive assistant and the facility manager 13 and then your AWO and the facility manager. 14 MR. : So were you still the 15 acting facility manager and they were just 16 overseeing what you were doing to make sure 17 that in your acting capacity you're doing it 18 right? Or they -- 19 MR. : That's up to interpretation. 20 I didn't have any decision-making power. It 21 had to all go through them -- 22 MR. : But --. 23 MR. : -- while (Indiscernible 24 *00:34:33). 25 MR. : But at least in your EFTA00112570 34 1 signature line you maintained the acting 2 facility manager? 3 MR. : I guess. I guess I just 4 never took it out, yeah. But --. 5 MR. : But was there ever 6 anything official that went out, like there was 7 an official email saying you're the acting 8 facility manager. Was there ever anything that 9 said you're no longer the acting facility 10 manager or - you know what I'm saying, like --? 11 MR. : Yeah, no, not to my knowledge 12 there was - because there was talks because 13 they were dragging on the hiring of a 14 replacement facility manager because 15 case, whatever he had going on on his personal 16 side with the Bureau they couldn't fill the job 17 until they finalized what was happening with 18 him. They needed like, I guess, an end date or 19 something like that. They needed to know when 20 was falling off the books in order for 21 them to re-post the job. 22 So there was never - it went on for so 23 long. Like I said, it was from the point that 24 I had walked out the door there in February of 25 '19 there was still no facility manager there. EFTA00112571 35 1 And I also know at the time that I walked out I 2 may have not took the word "acting" out of my 3 signature line, but I know I wasn't acting at 4 that time that I had left per se. 5 And I don't recall ever an official email 6 going out saying where I was acting. I 7 remember an email going out saying to all 8 department heads that was no longer 9 around and if anybody needed anything from the 10 facilities department to see me. 11 MR. : Now, were you -- 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:36:07). 13 MR. : Through the whole time 14 were you a part of these meetings that you said 15 that the facility manager would be a part of? 16 MR. : Some of them, yes, I was. 17 Yep. 18 MR. : So until the time you 19 left you still were sitting in the meeting the 20 facility manager would sit in then? 21 MR. : I was even in those meetings 22 when the facility manager was there. We all 23 sat in together. 24 MR. : Now, would you have been 25 sitting in those meetings if you were just the EFTA00112572 36 1 general foreman? 2 MR. : At his request if he wanted 3 me to or even if one of the executive staff 4 wanted me there. It all depends on what they 5 would have discussed at that time. 6 MR. : Did you (Indiscernible 7 *00:36:44) --? 8 MR. : He could choose. So the -- 9 MR. (Indiscernible 10 *00:36:45). 11 MR. : -- facility manager could 12 choose to have me there, or he could say, "I 13 got this. Don't worry about, you don't got to 14 come." 15 MR. : So when you were - at 16 least, you know, from the time left 17 until February, were you automatically assumed 18 to be in those meetings or you'd have to be 19 invited to each individual one? 20 MR. : It's kind of like both. I 21 expected myself to be there because somebody 22 had to represent the department in there, but 23 they also put out a roll call sheet prior to 24 those meetings and if I saw my name on it, I 25 went. EFTA00112573 37 1 MR. : And was your name on it? 2 MR. : Not always, no. 3 MR. : Okay. No, I'm just 4 trying to get behind were you acting and then 5 you just had someone overseeing you or - yeah, 6 I'm just trying to figure out how because we're 7 --. 8 MR. : I always had somebody 9 overseeing me, always. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Because even the facility 12 manager had somebody overseeing him, so. 13 MR. : But if you were going to 14 write your resume would you say that you were 15 acting a facility manager for that time? 16 MR. : No, because it wasn't 17 official. 18 MR. : So if well --. 19 MR. : Well, I --. 20 MR. : I'd say that was 21 official. 22 MR. : I don't know what an official 23 is really. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : I couldn't be honest with EFTA00112574 38 1 you. 2 MR. : No, if you're acting, if 3 they sent out an email, I would say that's 4 pretty official saying that you're the acting 5 facility manager and you could put it in your 6 signature line. I mean, there's not like --. 7 MR. : I would normally and I 8 thought so, but I also found out also that if 9 you're, like, you know, not temporarily 10 promoted into it and stuff like that and you're 11 not getting paid to do the job - but like I 12 said, I do remember emails going out, I just 13 cannot recall if the word "acting" was put into 14 it or not and if the word "acting" was in it, 15 but I don't know if I ever recall that or not. 16 I mean, there was several times where it 17 would go out because called in sick or 18 he went on vacation. I just don't recall if it 19 was ever done when he went off permanently. I 20 don't know if that was ever --. 21 MR. : Would it be a fair 22 statement for us to say that you were acting 23 facility manager with oversight? Would that be 24 a fair --? 25 MR. : I --. EFTA00112575 39 1 MR. : Or just tell --. 2 MR. : I guess so. 3 MR. : We just have to document 4 it in our reports of, like, you know, what this 5 person's role was from this time to this time. 6 So in order for us to be clear, I want to make 7 sure that we're not writing something that's 8 inaccurate. It's nothing -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- to do with, like, 11 you're, you know - you know, this is just for 12 our report writing purposes we can say, you 13 know, " went out, you were the acting 14 facility manager from this date until, you 15 know, February 2019, and then, you know, you 16 clarify that you had oversight from the 17 executive staff in your position and were 18 limited with your facility manager decision 19 making ability." Would that be fair? 20 MR. : Right, because if regardless 21 of whether I was acting or not and whether I 22 had oversight or not, the mere fact that 23 was not there, I still had to do a lot 24 of his duties to keep the department 25 functioning whether somebody deemed me EFTA00112576 40 1 officially acting or not. I was still doing 2 his functions because he was not there. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Under oversight from 5 executive staff. 6 MR. : Yeah, that sounds like 7 acting to me, so I just want to make sure that 8 we are clear there. Like you're just saying 9 you're not acting because you weren't official 10 - you know, you weren't temporarily promoted, 11 but you were performing those duties with 12 oversight. 13 MR. : They would - like I said, he 14 would call in sick and not come into work for a 15 couple days or go on vacation, so he would put 16 out an email to everybody in the institution 17 saying, " is acting facility manager 18 for the time that I'm out." 19 MR. : And would you --? 20 MR. : And himself, the 21 facility manager. 22 MR. : Oh, prior to 23 going out in 2018? 24 MR. : He would - if he wanted to 25 take a week off and go somewhere, he would put EFTA00112577 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 out an email letting the institution and the executive staff know that " will be acting in my capacity while I'm out." Happened all the time. Same thing like me, I would do the same thing and I would designate one of my subordinates as acting for me if I went out. But I do believe that at some point some kind of email went out by one of the executive staff after left that everybody should come and see me for all facility-related issues till further notice. And like I said, came to my office right after we had found out that wasn't coming back shortly after that Denver trip and he told me that I would have to run the department until they figure out what was going on with him, which was top secret and nobody knew anything. They didn't know nothing, couldn't tell you. MR. : All right. Go ahead, MR. : Just to clarify. had that meeting with , sent out that email? MR. : I don't think - if he was the one that sent it After you is that when he I don't know out, I can't EFTA00112578 42 1 recall. I just know some kind of email went 2 out for the department heads and it was also 3 brought up in one of the meetings reminding 4 people that was no longer there and 5 that if they had any facility-related issues I 6 was the one - I was the POC. 7 MR. : Okay. Now, is it okay - I'm 8 going to move forward in the topic. Now, 9 during that time period do you recall during 10 your tenure after left and before 11 left, was there a camera project that 12 was started at the MCC? 13 MR. : It was there. It was already 14 started. I believe when I had gotten there, 15 they were still doing market research and stuff 16 like that. 17 MR. : Is it in 2016? 18 MR. : What's that? 19 MR. : You said when you started, 20 you're talking about 2016? 21 MR. : There was talks of - there 22 was already camera issues I guess had going on 23 when I had gotten there. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : And I believe - well, it was EFTA00112579 43 1 December of 2016, so nothing happened in '16. 2 I think, you know, because I was - I got there, 3 like, the week of Christmas. So going into 4 '17, I know that there was talks about - it 5 wasn't so much on the cameras, it was on the 6 recorders. There was always constant internal 7 chatter between the comm techs and SIS and 8 everything else on how - I guess they had an 9 older system that was analog and everybody else 10 had digital, but their main gripe was, I guess 11 - and I'm not too familiar with the security 12 side of stuff, I'll be honest with you, I 13 always refer to them when I needed a question 14 answered, but from what I gather, what I 15 understand, they weren't able to go back in 16 time on the recorders as far as they 17 experienced, I guess, with other institutions. 18 So there was no secret that there was 19 cameras that were not working throughout the 20 facility. Like I said, that was a dead horse 21 from what I understand. They were dealing with 22 broken cameras long before I had even gotten 23 back there. And this recorder issue for 24 whatever reason evolved and turned into camera 25 issues, you know, and exposed the entire EFTA00112580 44 1 infrastructure eventually. 2 MR. : So you mentioned there's two 3 issues. There is one the - there were actual 4 cameras that weren't recording, I mean, cameras 5 that weren't working. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : That means there was no live 8 feed, there's nothing recording either because 9 the cameras itself were broken? 10 MR. : Right. So the - from what I 11 understand you had a combination of two 12 problems there. You had some cameras that 13 legitimately were not working. They just - 14 there was no communication. There was no 15 nothing. And then you had other cameras which 16 were in certain cells up in the Special Housing 17 Unit where whether they were working or not, it 18 was to my understanding that there was a lot of 19 damage being done to them by the inmates that 20 were in those cells. So they were either 21 scratching the lenses on the cameras, covering 22 up with wet toilet paper or whatever the case 23 may be. 24 I, myself, I couldn't even tell you if 25 those cameras were ever working. I only knew EFTA00112581 45 1 of one camera in the Special Housing Unit that 2 worked for the cells for the ranges and that 3 was, like, one suicide cell that they had there 4 on J-Range. But I don't - it started out with 5 me, the recorders were the issue, and then they 6 were like, "Oh, okay, we're going to go ahead 7 and spend this money and fix these recorders 8 and get these - this conversion from analog to 9 digital, let's suck in the cameras too that 10 don't work." 11 But I can tell you that I know that SIS 12 was constantly going to the comm techs all the 13 time because they were doing investigations and 14 had no camera footage. It almost seemed like 15 (Indiscernible *00:45:47). And obviously this 16 was long before the Jeffrey Epstein thing 17 because, you know, I had even left the 18 institution before Jeffrey Epstein got there. 19 This was just for, like, smaller internal 20 investigations that they were doing where they 21 were constantly going to for the camera 22 footage issues. 23 And the determination was made by 24 and the higherups, I guess, and they said, 25 well, if we're going to go ahead and change EFTA00112582 46 1 this recorder why don't we just go ahead and 2 try to upgrade everything, get some new cameras 3 inside and out. And they even wanted to add 4 cameras to the existing complement because they 5 had a lot of blind spots and then obviously the 6 infrastructure itself, like the wiring and the 7 conduit was all part of that deal. 8 MR. : In your knowledge in 2018 and 9 in '19, how many cameras were there inside the 10 MCC? 11 MR. : I couldn't tell you honestly. 12 There was a lot, but there was also a lot that 13 should have been there. But I do remember 14 had a map of where every single - pre- 15 existing camera was in the institution and I 16 believe the comm techs also had an inventory 17 tracking sheet, because each one of those 18 cameras had an asset number assigned to it 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- that was in the MTMMS 21 Maintenance Management System. 22 MR. : What was that --? 23 MR. : So - it's on the Maintenance 24 Management System, the --. 25 MR. : MTMS? EFTA00112583 47 1 MR. : TMS, yep, Total Maintenance 2 System. So, you know, all that equipment was 3 in there, so you should be able to pull the 4 report out of there. That would list all those 5 cameras including any asset numbers assigned to 6 the associated components that's maintainable. 7 If it's something that's maintainable and could 8 be repaired and it's not like a throwaway. We 9 call it run-to-die. If it's maintainable, 10 reparable, it's worth putting money into it, 11 it's in that system. 12 MR. : Okay. So in the SHU, do you 13 know how many cameras were in the SHU offhand? 14 MR. : No, because it was very 15 inconsistent because it was to my understanding 16 certain cameras were added throughout the years 17 for certain specific reasons. They would 18 designate certain cells for certain purposes 19 and then they would cancel that purpose and 20 convert it back to a regular cell. I mean, it 21 was just the constant changing of the 22 operations that changed the cameras, and that 23 was just obvious without even knowing the 24 backdrop because you could tell just by the 25 cameras there were so many different makes and EFTA00112584 48 1 models. They weren't all consistent. They 2 weren't all consistent. They weren't the same 3 for the most part depending on what area you 4 were in. 5 MR. : And so, this is -- 6 MR. : So SHU --. 7 MR. : -- in the SHU you're talking 8 about? You're not talking about 10-South? 9 We're talking about between G, M, J, K, L, M, T 10 that's inside the SHU? 11 MR. : Yes, those for the SHU, as 12 far as I know those were all there pre-existing 13 before me. There was never no camerawork done 14 up there, whether they were working or not. 15 MR. : But you just mentioned they 16 were adding cameras and taking them out. 17 MR. : Yeah, but I was talking 18 institution wide -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- not just - yeah, not just 21 SHU, you know. It was institution wide. 22 MR. : So let's get back on track. 23 We talked about the fact that started a 24 project and the project - what did that project 25 for the cameras entail? EFTA00112585 49 1 MR. : So I really - for the project 2 the way it was designed, the way we wanted it 3 done was had put this package together. 4 We were going to get - he had the map of the 5 cameras I was telling you about. So we were 6 going to upgrade the existing cameras, add new 7 cameras because took this map, brought 8 it to the executive staff and to SIS and they 9 said, "Hey, listen, this is what we have now. 10 We're going to go ahead and try to get this 11 project. Where do you need cameras?" 12 So they did a tour around the institution 13 and they went ahead and they asked to have 14 other cameras placed, like on certain ranges 15 that didn't have any coverages. There was, 16 like, a little mini TV rec room in the housing 17 units that had no camera coverage in them. 18 There was a lot of blind spots in certain areas 19 throughout the institution. So they went ahead 20 and they added what they wanted to add. 21 But then also because the recorder was 22 getting upgraded, the infrastructure that was 23 in place because it was analog, obviously it 24 was going to go to digital, they had to run new 25 wiring, new conduit. All that had to be done. EFTA00112586 50 1 So under that contract, last I remember 2 walking out that door, what happened was it 3 came in over a million dollars originally and 4 somebody came back and said, "Listen, we need 5 to get this to 800,000 or lower." Somebody 6 threw out a number there, I don't remember who 7 it was. It came through and somebody 8 up top said that because of some kind of 9 procurement avenue or regulation or something, 10 they would've had to go through a whole 11 different procurement avenue because of that 12 amount. They said to make it easier and to try 13 and increase our chances of getting this money 14 and getting it done, we had to bring the number 15 down to like 800,000 or something. I don't 16 remember the exact number. 17 So then the decision was made because 18 originally we did this contract, whoever we 19 were purchasing the cameras from, they were 20 also supposed to install those cameras. We 21 paid for the labor for them to do the entire 22 project initially. My guys weren't going to 23 touch anything, they were just going to provide 24 support. So the initial $1 million number was 25 to have the contract SigNet, I guess it was in EFTA00112587 51 1 that contract, whoever we were getting those 2 cameras from, they were going to go ahead and 3 do the install and we would supervise them, 4 escort them, and give support when they came. 5 So when they came back and told us that 6 that number needed to get down below 800 or 7 whatever, that's when the decision was made to 8 where they said, "Okay. We can do this. We 9 can just have the contractor install the 10 cameras and we can use the trade guys, the 11 electrician and the comm techs to run the cable 12 and the wiring to save on the labor, to bring 13 the labor costs down to try and get into that 14 number." 15 And that was the last - that's how I left 16 off. That's how the project was supposed to be 17 done, because when I was there, my last year 18 that I was there for the better - for the 19 second half of '19, well, '18 into '19, the 20 electrician and the comm techs had already 21 started running conduit in the housing units 22 and stuff like that. They had already begun to 23 hang conduit. But I could tell you from the - 24 right up till I walked out that door there were 25 never no cameras or even wiring for that matter EFTA00112588 52 1 in that institution. They were never there. 2 MR. : So we'll come to that. So 3 that's some of the questions I have. I'm going 4 to share -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- back my screen. Do you 7 recall if this was the contract that was 8 awarded? It looks like it states on Line 17A. 9 It's the same document I showed before. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : This says SigNet Technologies 12 and it's to Federal Bureau of Prisons. And if 13 you scroll down to page - looks like it's Page 14 4, it lists the schedule of supplies. 15 MR. : Yep. 16 MR. : What was - were these the 17 items the contract listed and does the contract 18 through SigNet all the purchase of all the 19 items for the upgrades inside MTC? 20 MR. . , can you scroll 21 back up there because I want to make sure it's 22 the right institution on this? 23 MR. : So this one - yeah, don't 24 look at - this - what you see FCI Fort Dix 25 (Indiscernible *00:54:15). I must clarify. EFTA00112589 53 1 FCI Fort Dix handles all the payments on the 2 East Coast. 3 MR. : Oh, okay. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Sorry about that. 6 MR. : They do all - they did all 7 the contracting for MCC New York and MDC 8 Brooklyn because they didn't have in-house 9 contractors at the facility institutions. 10 MR. : So --. 11 MR. : And I see below it says, 12 "Delivery Date September 28, 2018, MCC New York 13 Camera System." 14 MR. : Yeah. So that's --. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : I'm going to come back to 17 that part too. So over here, this is all the - 18 these are all the technology, well, the pieces. 19 Let's go through it, just - we'll go through it 20 quickly. It says for this license, the single 21 license for Nice Vision Enterprise package 22 audio channel, it looks like Vision Smart Hub 23 Recorder. This might be the recording system 24 that you're talking about, Mr. ? 25 MR. : I would - I guess so. I'm EFTA00112590 54 1 going to guess. I'm not a comm tech. For now, 2 I'll say yes. 3 MR. : No problem. And there's a 4 recorder (Indiscernible •00:55:04) licenses and 5 then it looks like a package major version, 6 then we got the decoders. We got the AMS and 7 Nice Vision supporting 16 cameras, the IP 8 cameras. Now, you mentioned that this - if 9 this is the contract that was awarded, was the 10 plan to replace every camera inside the MCC or 11 replace only certain cameras? 12 MR. : I was under the impression it 13 was every camera we purchased for them, so if 14 you're looking at that Line Number 9 where it 15 says SigNet labor for a quarter of a million 16 dollars -- 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- they better have installed 19 every damn camera because that was my 20 intention. That's what I was - thought I was 21 paying for was -- 22 MR. : So they're replacing -- 23 MR. -: . -- you know, for them to --. 24 MR. -: . -- every camera - current 25 camera in the MCC plus adding additional EFTA00112591 55 1 cameras? 2 MR. : Correct, yep. 3 MR. : And the total here says 4 698,108, and what you mentioned a little while 5 before was initially the contract was over a 6 million dollars and your understanding was this 7 part right here, this SigNet labor was much 8 higher and the idea, the proposal that came 9 around was to get rid of the SigNet labor in 10 terms of the conduit, wiring, the wiring, to be 11 done by in-house comm techs and electricians so 12 that this labor -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- cost of whatever the total 15 was would come down and would be below the 16 $800,000 mark in total? 17 MR. : That was my - I don't know 18 what the numbers exactly were but that was my 19 understanding was that in order to drop that 20 quote down, we had to cut back on - they just 21 said, you know, "Let's go ahead and cut back on 22 the labor on the wiring side," which is why the 23 guys started running conduit in-house on their 24 own because it was to my understanding that's 25 what got cut from the contract. EFTA00112592 56 1 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 2 happen to recall offhand what the initial 3 SigNet labor proposal was, right? 4 MR. : I just remember the original 5 first estimate that went out came back when 6 was still here was like over a million 7 dollars 8 MR. : Okay, the total. Okay. 9 MR. : The total, yeah, uh-huh. 10 MR. : And based on this, it looks 11 like Line 8 it shows IP cameras. It looks like 12 the quantity is 135. Then it says the Corner 13 VEN cam. That looks like there's 75 pieces. 14 So you're looking at over 200 cameras in total 15 that was ordered. 16 MR. : Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. 17 MR. : One thing I don't see in here 18 - well, maybe you can explain it since I don't 19 see. Do you see the order for the conduits in 20 here, the wiring? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : But if that was part of the - 23 - 24 MR. : But if -. 25 MR. : Who was supposed to provide EFTA00112593 57 1 that? 2 MR. : You have - so I believe - we 3 had a lot of conduit left over at Building 4. 4 It was a warehouse that we had in Brooklyn that 5 belongs to MCC New York. It's like their food 6 service warehouse and facilities had a storage 7 and I guess they had a whole bunch of conduit 8 there from a surplus from another project, so 9 they started bringing that stuff over to the 10 institution and using that. The wiring I 11 believe was purchased separately through - I 12 don't remember the company's name. The comm 13 tech would know because he did the order, but 14 we purchased that through - what is the website 15 where you buy stuff from GSA? 16 MR. : I'm not sure. I'm not 17 familiar with the purchasing department. But 18 it was purchased through GSA according to your 19 memory? 20 MR. : Well, it's a website GSA has. 21 MR. : GSA Advantage or 22 something? 23 MR. : That's it. Yeah, so all 24 these companies sell their stuff on this GSA 25 website, GSA Advantage, and I know all of the EFTA00112594 58 1 quotes for that wiring and stuff came from 2 vendors off that website. That's where were - 3 it was eventually purchased through a separate 4 procurement I believe, if it wasn't part of 5 this, I can't even recall. But I do remember 6 the shopping for the wiring being done on GSA 7 Advantage through a vendor there. 8 MR. : Okay. This might sound like 9 10 MR. : I just don't remember. 11 MR. : Sorry. This might sound like 12 a dumb question. 13 MR. : I just don't remember. 14 MR. : What's the difference between 15 a conduit and a wiring? 16 MR. : So the conduit is the metal 17 pipe that you see running across or up and down 18 a wall that runs into little junction boxes and 19 the wiring just runs into it. 20 MR. : So --. 21 MR. : Runs through it. 22 MR. : So that's a protection, the 23 conduit, it's an actual protection over the 24 MR. : Yeah, yeah, it's metal or it 25 could be PVC, but obviously in the institution EFTA00112595 59 1 it was metal and you run the conduit and you 2 run the junction boxes and everything and then 3 you pull your cable through it and it's 4 basically a protective housing to protect the 5 wiring and keep it from being exposed. 6 MR. : And according to your memory, 7 do you recall whose decision it was to have the 8 in-house staff do the conduits and the wiring? 9 MR. : It came down from the 10 executive staff, but that was discussed, jeez, 11 I can't even remember. That was back when the 12 numbers started flying in and they were trying 13 to find out ways to bring the numbers down and 14 everything, but it was somebody higherup that 15 made the decision to try and cut there on the - 16 when they saw how much the labor was, they were 17 like, "Well, maybe we could cut back on the 18 labor," because it was my goal that if they 19 were going to spend this kind of money, you 20 might as well have the contractor do 21 everything. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And all my hopes and dreams 24 got killed because they saw the number and 25 wanted to cut some fat and - but --. EFTA00112596 60 1 MR. : No problem. See on the 2 bottom, it says - it was - the document 3 "Signature Offer Steven Smith." It looks like 4 you signed on 09/21/2018 and that's - he works 5 for SigNet Technologies. And Line 31A that's - 6 looks like U.S. Government, that's 7 (Phonetic Sp. *1:01:38), and that was 8 signed on 09/21/2018, and he's a Section Chief 9 FAO. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And the delivery date on Line 12 20 up here, it says, "Estimate" - well, I don't 13 know if it's estimate, but it says, "Delivery 14 date is on 09/28/2018." It says, "MCC New York 15 camera system: provide services in accordance 16 with SFS, SOW, and technical proposal." And it 17 looks like GSA, GSO7F-0322T. It looks like the 18 contract number's in here too. It looks like 19 based - looking at this, the contract, the 20 estimate was - I mean, the contract states that 21 the delivery for all that equipment and 22 everything that was ordered was scheduled to be 23 delivered at the MCC on September 28, 2018. 24 According to your recollection, do you 25 recall if all these items were delivered to the EFTA00112597 61 1 MCC in September 2018? 2 MR. : Can we go back to when this 3 contract was drafted? Okay. So you see here 4 where the award was 09/21? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : And then the delivery date is 7 09/28, that's a week. There is no way, no way 8 - I'm not even going to - I shouldn't have to 9 go any further, but I'm going to do it anyway. 10 There's no way you could deliver a product like 11 that - the install alone if the contractor 12 would have did it would have taken well over a 13 year. Just the install alone for that kind of 14 equipment if they were to do everything soup to 15 nuts on their own, conduit and everything, 16 would have took a year. 17 MR. : But is it --? 18 MR. : So -- 19 MR. : Where is the equipment coming 20 from? 21 MR. : -- I'm thinking that that 22 delivery date is the date they delivered the 23 contract to the contractor because there's no 24 way you can award a contract and expect to have 25 everything that's in that contract in seven EFTA00112598 62 1 days get done. Delivery date I think is when 2 they delivered the contract to the contractor. 3 But to answer your question, as of February 14th 4 of 2019, my last day there, there was not a 5 single camera on-site there -- 6 MR. : Is it possible 7 MR. : -- because -- 8 MR. : -- the cameras 9 MR. : What's that? 10 MR. : -- were delivered without 11 your knowledge? Is it possible the cameras 12 would have been delivered without your 13 knowledge? 14 MR. : That place, absolutely. But 15 I could tell you this much, two things wrong 16 with that. Number one, it was my impression 17 that the contractor when they received all the 18 cameras and got all the cameras in stock and 19 everything was on-site and they had all the 20 equipment on-site and everything was in stock, 21 they were bringing it with them. I didn't - I 22 don't know if they were going to dropship that 23 or not and have the stuff delivered directly to 24 the institution and then come afterwards. But 25 even if that was the case, somebody would have EFTA00112599 63 1 to had gone to the rear loading dock where that 2 stuff comes in and there's a logbook back there 3 and they would've had to sign for that delivery 4 and it would've had to been somebody in the 5 facilities department. 6 MR. : So you're under the 7 impression that - when you say "contractor," 8 you're talking about SigNet? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So you're under the 11 impression that SigNet was supposed to bring 12 all that equipment with them when they come in 13 to install? 14 MR. : Correct. 15 MR. : So you're not sure --. 16 MR. : We paid them to install it, 17 so to me contractually wise there would have 18 been too much liability there to have the stuff 19 shipped directly to the institution and then 20 call the contractor up and say, "Hey, come in, 21 all the stuff is here," because if something 22 was missing or broken, because the contractor 23 didn't have chain of custody of that equipment 24 the whole entire time, they could blame us. We 25 had a lot of liability on our hands and we EFTA00112600 64 1 would still have to pay the contractor 2 regardless. We wouldn't be able to hold them 3 liable for any damages as far as that goes. 4 So my impression was when we did this 5 everything was going to go to SigNet or SigNet 6 was purchasing it and when everything was in- 7 house they would come and bring everything with 8 them and install it. 9 MR. : I have an email here. I'm 10 going to show this to you. This email is from 11 Justin Houston. He's a program manager for 12 SigNet Technologies and -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- this is addressed to me. 15 It says, "I wanted to send this to you in 16 regards to the questions you asked." This is 17 dated October 1st, Friday, 2021, and this is -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- from Justin Houston to 20 myself. And he states, "Hey, . I wanted 21 to send this to you in regards to the question 22 you asked regarding if they had new gear on- 23 site. Attached is the PO that we received on 24 09/21/2018. The gear was delivered around 30 25 days after that and on 11/01/2018 I sent over EFTA00112601 65 1 the paperwork for the site to submit for the IP 2 addresses needed to install the system. I will 3 forward the email traffic as well." 4 It looks like based on what he stated - 5 let me see if I can get this. Actually, this 6 is the contract itself. It looks like he's 7 stating that by 09/21/2018 that's - the 8 contract was signed, and it looks like within 9 30 days all the gear was delivered. But you're 10 stating you don't believe the gear was 11 delivered? 12 MR. : Nope, not at all. 13 MR. : Is it possible that he was - 14 now you - based on what your statement, you 15 believe the gear might have been delivered to 16 them. 17 MR. : Well, that's my problem is he 18 doesn't clarify what gear means. I don't know 19 what gear means. Does gear mean just the 20 cameras? Does it mean just the wire? Does it 21 mean the entire contents? I don't know what he 22 - does it mean just the recorder. He's not 23 clarifying what gear means. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Going back to what I said, I EFTA00112602 66 1 could tell you that unless somebody signed for 2 something without my knowledge and didn't tell 3 me about it, there was no cameras on that. 4 There was no gear. They were just hanging 5 conduit when I leave there and that was conduit 6 that we owned that we didn't even purchase. It 7 was already there. So --. 8 MR. : If gear was delivered, where 9 would it have been delivered to at the MCC if 10 the items - all these items were delivered? 11 MR. : So it would've had to gone to 12 the rear dock. The rear gate they called it. 13 And then there's a Shipping and Receiving 14 personnel there, staff, and they have a big 15 cage that's in that loading area, so all the 16 deliveries go in there and then they would 17 write down who had deliveries, call those 18 departments and say, "Hey, you need to send 19 somebody to come pick up your stuff. You got 20 stuff here." So whoever that person was to go 21 there to pick up the stuff would have to sign 22 the logbook saying that they picked up the 23 stuff. 24 But you're talking about a truck loading 25 stuff that wouldn't even have fit in that cage. EFTA00112603 67 1 It would've been like pallets and stuff like - 2 it would have been huge to store that stuff. 3 It would've had to have, you know - and then, 4 you know, it's all electronic stuff. That's why I don't recall that stuff being delivered 6 prior to the - but I was under the impression 7 the contractor was coming with that stuff. I 8 was not under the impression that that was 9 going to get delivered separately, and if did 10 it wasn't to my knowledge. 11 I never saw a single new camera while I 12 was there or recorder or anything like that and 13 somebody would've had to have signed for that. 14 And then we would have had to have - there 15 would have had to have been inventory taken to 16 put that in storage and somewhere in the 17 Facilities Department. 18 So like I said, going back to the 19 contract, they awarded it on the 21st and wanted 20 it done by the 28th, that's just totally 21 unrealistic and irrational. I don't -- 22 MR. : Now -- 23 MR. -- see that. 24 MR. : -- if the things that you 25 purchased from them, would have that been the EFTA00112604 68 1 material as well that your staff members would 2 have been using to run the conduit and wiring 3 and things? Is that part of that purchase 4 order or is that something you were going to be 5 receiving yourself and --? 6 MR. : So I was under the impression 7 that SigNet was going to wait until they had 8 all their equipment, wherever they get it from 9 or whoever they're buying it from or who their 10 supply is, when they have everything they need 11 to do the job that's within the scope of work 12 of the contract, they were going to come on- 13 site with everything and begin doing the work 14 themselves. The only that -- 15 MR. : I thought you --. 16 MR. : -- my guys --. 17 MR. : I'm sorry, go ahead. 18 MR. : The only thing my guys - 19 yeah. The only thing my guys were going to do 20 was install the conduit. The wiring if I 21 remember correctly was purchased separately 22 through that GSA Advantage website and it was 23 through - I remember it was through a vendor 24 that they had purchased from previously in the 25 past, the comm shop, for regular supplies and EFTA00112605 69 1 stuff. It was just like a regular 2 cabling/wiring company that had a GSA schedule 3 on that site. And that would have been 4 delivered directly to the institution. 5 MR. : I apologize. I have one more 6 email. I'm going to share this with you too. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : This is Anixter TP-120, 240 9 and SigNet Tech. This is from to 10 - there's a whole bunch of names: 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the people listed. It's dated on April 1, 2019. Subject is Anixter TP-120, 240, and SigNet Tech. It says, "Good afternoon, Ms. . After reviewing my CORS Report for the Central Office supplies samples, I went ahead and asked II. our comm tech on the status of these particular PO's and he advised me that they haven't been able to receive the fiber cable and without the cable they cannot - they can't proceed with the camera systems. He mentioned that the company's requiring some sort of documentation and he would be - he should be able to provide you with the details. Sincerely, , Financial Program EFTA00112606 70 1 Specialist, U.S. Department of Justice, BOP." 2 Now, does that help clarify anything? 3 MR. : Yeah -- 4 MR. : I know this is --. 5 MR. : -- it just tells me that - it 6 verifies what I said, that there was no cameras 7 or wiring or anything on-site there at the time 8 that I left. It was just not there. But it 9 also makes sense that if these - the wiring 10 isn't there, they can't hook up the cameras. 11 But what got me - where I'm concerned, I guess, 12 with this is who were they talking to here 13 because this would have to be a problem with 14 SigNet. If SigNet's installing - connecting 15 the wires to the cameras and everything like 16 that, I don't know who they're really 17 addressing in that email. 18 MR. : It looks like it's more 19 internal email, right? And they're trying to 20 figure out what exactly - why the camera 21 systems have not been installed yet. It looks 22 like told them that the status 23 of the fiber cable is not in, like the fiber 24 cable or cables have not been delivered, right? 25 I'm sorry. And without the cables they can't EFTA00112607 71 1 proceed with the camera systems. 2 MR. : Well, yeah, that's cause and 3 effect. Yeah, so that's accurate as I read it. 4 The fact that it's three years since I left 5 there and there's still no wiring there is kind 6 of intriguing in itself. 7 MR. : Well, this is 2019. This is 8 like a couple months after you left, April 1, 9 2019. 10 MR. : Oh, I got you. Okay. Yeah. 11 MR. : So that Anixster, would that 12 be the company? Would that be one of those 13 companies that provides wiring? 14 MR. : Possibly, yeah. I guess so. 15 I'm not -- 16 MR. I just sent you 17 an email. Can you just share your - or scroll 18 down to the second email and just - so that 19 maybe this will help -- 20 MR. : Bear with me. 21 MR. : -- clarify what was 22 received and what wasn't. 23 MR. : Okay. Share your screen. Is 24 this the - you want me to scroll all the way 25 down? EFTA00112608 72 1 MR. : No. It would be the one 2 that says - what I sent you was the - did you 3 receive what I sent you -- 4 MR. : Sorry. 5 MR. : -- the email from Steve 6 Smith? It was from Mobile -- 7 MR. : Oh, it's on the bottom, okay. 8 MR. : -- to Steve Smith -- 9 MR. : Yeah, it's on the bottom of 10 that. 11 MR. : -- that --. 12 MR. : Right here. 13 MR. : That's it. Not on the 14 bottom. It's middle. 15 MR. : Right here. It's in the 16 middle. So this is an email documentation from 17 Steve Smith, that's 18 dated -- 19 MR. : Share your screen. 20 MR. : Oh, I apologize. I thought 21 it was shared. Sorry, go ahead. Can you see 22 that? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : We're talking about this part 25 right here. EFTA00112609 73 1 MR. : Correct. 2 MR. : It says, "Chris, I didn't 3 want to leave you hanging, so this is what we 4 know so far. It appears that FedEx might - 5 must recycle tracking numbers. The order was 6 placed on 09/27/2018 from SigNet to Qognify. 7 Nice and Divisional PO shows it was shipped 8 directly to the site, MCC New York. It shows 9 that it was scheduled to ship on 09/30/2018 10 from Qognify. We currently don't have the 11 tracking that shows when you exactly received 12 it but best guess is seven to 14 days, which 13 would put it on your dock around October 14, 14 2018, and it was installed the week of August 15 16, 2019. We will try to continue - we will 16 continue to try and find the tracking 17 information for when it actually hit your dock. 18 Let me know if you need anything else." 19 MR. : Yeah. So that was going to 20 be my next question is: Where is any tracking 21 information on this? And then if FedEx does 22 recycle tracking numbers, that's definitely 23 news to me. But also, when this email - what 24 are they saying they shipped? 25 MR. : It looks like it was a EFTA00112610 74 1 question about the camera system that was on- 2 site at MCC. They're talking about 3 specifically the camera system that was sent 4 from SigNet -- 5 MR. : It doesn't say that. It 6 doesn't say that. It doesn't tell them what 7 they're - it doesn't even - forget about the 8 fact they don't have no tracking - it doesn't 9 even say what they're talking about other than 10 if we could identify what the - I don't even 11 know what that Qognify stuff is. That doesn't 12 even look familiar to me. 13 MR. : So Qognify is the company, 14 the parent - the company that they deal with 15 for the Nice video system. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : So they are the ones who 18 handle 19 MR. : So that would tell me then 20 that's only going to be that component that was 21 delivered, which still if it was delivered, I 22 had no knowledge of it while I was there. 23 MR. : And you're saying if it comes 24 in that pallet - let's just say the MCC 25 received a truckload of something like that and EFTA00112611 75 1 it can't be housed inside the MCC at that 2 location, where else could it be housed? 3 MR. : Well, I don't think - it 4 could be housed there, it just wouldn't be in 5 that warehouse there. It would have to be in 6 some other secure location within the facility, 7 like somewhere in the Facilities Department. 8 Most likely probably, like, in the comm shop or 9 something like that someplace. 10 MR. : But if this --. 11 MR. : I wouldn't necessarily say 12 that it would be stored offsite. 13 MR. : Hey, , just scroll 14 above to the email that I sent. It's 15 specifically with regard to Nobile. He said 16 that it's the camera system that was installed 17 on the 19th. I mean, and if you don't know, 18 Nobile was the acting facilities manager from 19 February through March of - or May of 2019 and 20 then became the permanent facilities manager or 21 facility manager. 22 MR. : Yeah, I believe he walked in 23 right as I walked out or right after or 24 something like that. It was very close. 25 MR. : So he's telling us that EFTA00112612 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR. : -- going back -- 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : -- I was under the impression 18 the contractor was bringing the cameras, not 19 being delivered separately without the 20 contractor. 21 MR. : So according to his 22 email, you know, they're claiming that 23 beginning of October 2018 is when they would 24 have arrived, so is that - were you acting at 25 that point or was still there? 76 the camera system - you know, everything that they installed was already on-site and that's what he had told us. So he's saying it was on- site by the time he got there, so we're just getting confused when you're saying that it wasn't there because he said it was already there when he got there. MR. : I never laid eyes on it, and I was never made aware that those cameras were on-site in my whole entire time that I was there. Somebody would have had to sign for them. There's got to be some kind of tracking information, and then like I said -- MR. : So -. EFTA00112613 77 1 MR. : Like I don't know, I can't - 2 I would need to know the date that 3 acted his last day on the job. And the only 4 milestone I can give you for that is, like I 5 said, when he went on that Colorado training 6 trip, he just never came back from that. 7 MR. : Well, last time we spoke - 8 last time - my understanding is when 9 left is August of 2018 was the last time he 10 stepped foot inside MCC. Does that help? 11 MR. : Yeah, it does, but like I 12 said, I'm just - I never saw anything outside 13 of conduit regarding this project on-site there 14 at that institution. I was never made aware of 15 any of that being there from my - since the day 16 the contract was awarded up until the time, I 17 walked out the door there was no cameras in 18 that building -- 19 MR. : And --. 20 MR. : -- at least to my knowledge. 21 I never was made - I was never told, made 22 aware, never signed for them, never was - 23 nothing. 24 MR. : And if it did come, it says - 25 according to - it looks like this is the EFTA00112614 78 1 contract. If it was delivered, it should have 2 been delivered attention to you according to 3 the contract, right? 4 MR. : That's - should have - 5 exactly that's how that should have been done 6 if things are done the way they're supposed to 7 be done, but I never was made aware of any of 8 that stuff. I mean, like I said, it's been a 9 long time, but I never - I don't think there 10 was any - there's no way. 11 MR. : And before - just on a 12 side note, as far as the conduit that needed to 13 be run, how long should've that taken your 14 people to run? 15 MR. : It would have taken a very 16 long time because the department was severely 17 understaffed, and the institution came first. 18 The daily operations of the institution came 19 first. So if you had lights out, you had 20 phones down, you know, stuff like that the 21 tradesmen had to go ahead and take care of work 22 orders and stuff to maintain the institution 23 first and then they would come back and on 24 their downtime and stuff and do work pertaining 25 to this. EFTA00112615 79 1 MR. : Okay. About how many man 2 hours do you think it takes though, I mean, if 3 they actually had worked on it? 4 MR. : It's kind of hard to tell 5 because I don't know the total picture of the 6 routing of where all the cameras were going in 7 addition to the ones that are existing there, 8 but I can tell you that when this whole thing 9 was going on every - we were all short-staffed. 10 There was a constant flip over of staff, and 11 then you had augmentation going on. 12 My guys were working housing units more 13 than they were in the department and working 14 mandated overtime. So they were covering - 15 augmentation was like you would act as a CO and 16 go up in the housing unit for the shift, and 17 then some of them would get stuck doing 18 overtime for another shift. And then depending 19 on how that fell, they went up there all day 20 working the housing unit, got told they had to 21 work all night, then they were banging on me in 22 the morning because they worked a double before 23 that. 24 So - but I mean, man hours' wise, I really 25 couldn't tell you. I know there's a book out EFTA00112616 80 1 there, electrical code book out there that 2 tells you the standard amount of feet of 3 conduit that can be installed within an eight- 4 hour period, but I mean, it just - that stuff 5 doesn't apply to a prison, especially MCC New 6 York. There are just too much operational 7 changes and stuff on a daily basis that 8 prevented these guys from dedicating 100 9 percent of their work to something like that. 10 Especially being that they already had 11 something in place that was semi-functional. 12 MR. : Just to clarify, I know you 13 mentioned it, said you never received anything, 14 you never signed for anything. If the 15 receiving - if the delivery area received it, 16 right, you said the back - the rear door 17 received it, would they have some kind of log 18 they kept? 19 MR. : Yep, uh-huh. 20 MR. : Where would I find that? 21 MR. : So that log was kept in the 22 cage where the packages were - be delivered at. 23 So inside that - they had one officer dedicated 24 that had one key for that cage back there and 25 that was their job. R & D it was called, they EFTA00112617 81 1 were part of that crew, and they would just go 2 ahead and you get delivery, UPS, FedEx, they 3 would all come in, put all that stuff in a 4 cage, and they would write in the book who it 5 was addressed to, what department, and then 6 they would call you and let you know you had 7 something or send you an email, however the 8 officer chose to do it, and you would go there 9 and sign for it and pick it up. 10 MR. : And no one notified you. 11 This - the book that they keep, is it labeled 12 anything specific as you recall? 13 MR. : If I recall correctly, I saw 14 two different versions of the book. One was a 15 binder, a three-ring binder type with a pre- 16 filled out form, and then also there was a - 17 have you ever seen those little green 18 government logbooks that are just plain? You 19 know, there was one of those back there at one 20 point. 21 MR. : Okay. And that should tell 22 us when - if and when it was delivered? 23 MR. : Yep. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : And in addition to the EFTA00112618 82 1 tracking information, of course, you know, 2 because I believe the three-ring binder part of 3 that - because that's the other thing is if 4 something is getting delivered to me, if I 5 ordered something out of the department, I 6 don't care what it was, a case of light bulbs 7 or, you know, a truckload of conduit or 8 whatever, when that stuff ships this way, the 9 vendor's sending me an email with tracking 10 information letting me know when to accept it 11 because they know it's coming to a secure 12 institution where the truck and the driver are 13 subject to screening and there's only certain 14 hours that they can deliver during the day. 15 So it's not like a wide open 24/7 16 warehouse obviously. They can only deliver 17 during certain hours. So I would make sure and 18 let everybody know you need to give me the 19 tracking information and I need to know what 20 day that this stuff is coming to me because I 21 need to make sure that I have the arrangements 22 in place to get this delivery accepted and not 23 turned away. 24 MR. : Were you - back then were you 25 in constant communication with SigNet or was EFTA00112619 83 1 there somebody else on your staff that was in 2 communication with SigNet? 3 MR. : The comm techs. We had two 4 comm techs that started with this thing and 5 initialed. I inherited two comm techs when I 6 came there, which both were involved with the 7 project with when he started it. One 8 of them had retired and then one of them stayed 9 behind. He was still there. He was a younger 10 guy, which is that guy on the email 11 MR. : And who is the one that 12 retired? 13 MR. 14 *1:27:11). 15 MR. 16 retired? 17 MR. 18 couldn't giv 19 couldn't to 20 MR. 21 MR. 22 *1:27:26). 23 MR. 24 or was it ea 25 MR. (Phonetic Sp. : Do you know when he e 11 ■: ■: While I was there. I you an exact date. I really you. I'm --. Was this toward the end of -- What (Indiscernible 2018, beginning of 2019, rlier? What's that? EFTA00112620 84 1 MR. : Was it towards the end of 2 2018, beginning of 2019 or earlier? 3 MR. : I honestly really couldn't 4 tell you. 5 MR. : Is it possible that SigNet 6 sent the tracking information to ? 7 MR. : Very possible. They did a 8 lot of communication from what I understand 9 back and forth that I was not looped in on, but 10 that was during the pre-contract, pre-planning 11 phases or pre-ordering phase I should say. But 12 yeah, very possible that it could have went to 13 him. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And it's also very possible 16 it could have went to the contracting officer. 17 Sometimes they do do that. So - and I noticed 18 if you go back to that contract there was that 19 guy (Phonetic Sp. *1:28:18) on there. 20 MR. : This is up top. 21 MR. : Do you see his name ? 22 MR. : This is up here, right here, 23 you're talking about 24 MR. : Yep. So he is what we call - 25 I think he was in the Budgeting Department, but EFTA00112621 85 1 he was what we called the "paper pusher" for 2 Fort Dix. 3 MR. : That would be here? 4 MR. : So basically, he did all the 5 financial stuff for MCC New York. He was the 6 guy that was on-site in the budget office and 7 then all that paperwork, he was technically, 8 like, an employee of Fort Dix. He was working 9 with them in the contracting and budgeting 10 office of Financial Services. 11 MR. : You're talking about Line 7A 12 where it states , R. 13 (Indiscernible *1:29:05)? 14 MR. : Yeah. So any time I want to 15 purchase anything, it doesn't matter what it 16 is, he would get the paperwork and then the 17 rest of it's between him and the contracting 18 staff at Fort Dix, the CO at Fort Dix, whoever 19 that CO is. 20 So sometimes with stuff like this, I have 21 seen in other instances where people will look 22 at this contract and they don't - they just see 23 a name and they just put it on there and send 24 them stuff. But I would also like to think 25 that if or even , the EFTA00112622 86 1 comm tech, or somebody got a tracking number 2 that they would have had the decency or the 3 common sense or whatever you want to call it to 4 to forward it to me, you know, to send it to 5 me. 6 MR. : Okay. As far as you recall 7 you left in February 14, 2019, and when you 8 left -- 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : -- as far as you recall -- 11 MR. : (Indiscernible *1:30:06). 12 MR. : -- MCC never received the 13 cameras or anything on this order, which would 14 be that - everything that's listed on Page 4 of 15 this contract order, you don't recall them 16 receiving it. And you believe that --. 17 MR. -. . I don't at all. When I left 18 there, they were still hanging conduit when 19 they could -- 20 MR. : And the conduit was -- 21 MR. : -- at times (Indiscernible 22 *1:30:27). 23 MR. : -- items that was already in- 24 house that MCC from a previous project? 25 MR. : I don't - yeah, because I EFTA00112623 87 1 know they had plans to purchase more just in 2 case. But I remember going over to Building 4 3 and there was just racks and racks and racks of 4 conduit that they had over there. The 5 electrician knew - was there, that was part of 6 his overstock for his shop -- 7 MR. : Where was Building 4? 8 MR. : -- that he hung. It's just 9 over the bridge in Brooklyn, an old Navy 10 shipyard. 11 MR. : The Brooklyn Navy Shipping 12 Yard. 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : So MCC kept -- 15 MR. : It's right on -- 16 MR. : MCC had a building inside the 17 yard? 18 MR. : Yeah. It's kind of like 19 separated. It was - used to be part of the 20 yard, but it's totally fenced in by itself and 21 there's a big huge warehouse there. And at the 22 time that I had left there, food service, staff 23 from food service ran that operation because 24 they had big giant walk-in freezers and coolers 25 there, which is where they kept a lot of their EFTA00112624 88 1 overstock. 2 But also, every single department in the 3 institution, didn't matter who you was, human 4 resources, trust fund, facilities, everybody 5 had their own separate cages in that warehouse 6 as well to keep overstock supplies for their 7 departments as well. And has its own loading 8 dock, trucks go in and out of there every day, 9 all day with deliveries and all kinds of stuff, 10 and if it's something that they can't fit at 11 the institution, it goes to Building 4. You 12 can have the driver take it to Building 4. 13 But in this case, I would have never 14 allowed that because I - the supervision and 15 the oversight, there is none out there. At 16 least there wasn't at the time that I was 17 there. There was just one guy running the 18 whole show over there with a handful of 19 inmates. 20 MR. : Okay. Agent any 21 questions on that? 22 MR. : No. I'm just looking 23 through all the emails from right now. 24 MR. : I don't have much more in 25 terms of questions in terms of follow-up EFTA00112625 89 1 because we covered a lot of details. Bear with 2 me one minute. 3 MR. : Sure. You guys owe me lunch, 4 I could tell you that. 5 MR. : You just threw us for a 6 total loop because we've been proceeding this 7 whole time with the knowledge that these have - 8 were on-site, so that's where we - you've kind 9 of blown our minds here not knowing about it. 10 MR. : Yeah, I just — I told - I - 11 when Agent gave me the initial phone 12 call, I was like, wow, 2018. That was like - I 13 just had no - we were still waiting on 14 everything. And even if - I would have 15 expected the contractor to be with them. But I 16 know there was delays with the wiring. The 17 wiring was crazy. They had some crazy delays 18 with wiring. 19 And to be honest with you, something like 20 this just the way that institution was ran, 21 there was just way too many hands in the pot. 22 It was just - two wardens, two AW's, two comm 23 techs, two facility managers it sounds like. 24 There's just too much stuff going on, too many 25 people involved. EFTA00112626 90 1 MR. : You mentioned that Executive 2 Assistant and 3 they possibly - you know, I know you were 4 acting facility manager, but at the same time, 5 you know, they instructed you, gave 6 instructions too. Any chance that they had 7 communications with SigNet over this? 8 MR. : I don't see how or why, but I 9 wouldn't say no. I would say that if that did 10 happen, it would have probably been more with 11 than the AW because he had more 12 interaction with the warden as far as, you 13 know, keeping him abreast of things and stuff 14 like that, so. 15 MR. : And just for the record, the 16 last name 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : And you mentioned there was 19 other AW's too, 20 MR. 21 MR. . And then you 22 mentioned there was another El 24 MR. : That's last name. 25 MR. : Oh, I apologize. EFTA00112627 91 1 MR. •. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Don't ask me how to spell it, 4 I don't know. He was an Egyptian. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : 7 MR. -. . . 8 MR. : You would have saw his name 9 on the earlier stages of the project back when 10 was still managing it because he was 11 the AW with at that time. 12 MR. : Okay. And you said the comm 13 techs would usually fix the issues that came up 14 in - prior to this camera system being - new 15 camera system being ordered, the comm techs 16 would fix the issues that came up with the 17 recorder and the decoder. What's a decoder? 18 MR. : A decoder? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : I have no idea. I just heard 21 it being used all the time. But see, I had a 22 personal issue. You got to realize in my 23 tenure with the Bureau, I worked at four 24 different institutions, three of them high 25 profile. All right. MCC New York, me and EFTA00112628 92 1 used to - I had a problem with that 2 equipment being in the same office as my comm 3 tech. You go to any other institution, that 4 equipment is under SIS control and if they need 5 a comm tech to look at it, SIS calls for the 6 comm tech and then SIS stays there and provides 7 oversight, an escort the whole time that 8 they're working on that equipment. 9 Here at MCC New York, and I'm only 10 assuming because MCC New York's the oldest 11 building I've ever worked in - I think it was 12 built in the late '60s early '70s. But I just 13 was not used to that equipment being in the 14 office of the comm tech. Everywhere I've ever 15 been that was always in SIS, but these were all 16 newer buildings. I think every other 17 institution I worked in was much newer, but I 18 just wasn't accustomed to that equipment being 19 in - it was just unreal to me. I just, you 20 know --. 21 MR. : Can you explain that to me 22 one more time? So my - our understanding is 23 there's a SIS office, then there's a video -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- monitoring room, right, EFTA00112629 93 1 where they can see -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- everything on the cameras. 4 That's where the SIS - an SIS officer sits. 5 They watch everything on the video monitor. 6 And isn't the access for the camera system 7 inside a room that's inside the video 8 monitoring room? 9 MR. : Are you talking where? 10 MR. : At MCC. 11 MR. : Yeah, but where, downstairs 12 in the comm tech's office, or up in someplace 13 else? 14 MR. : So - wait, wait. So I'm 15 talking about on the third floor where the SIS 16 office is. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Isn't there a video 19 monitoring room? 20 MR. : I've never - I don't know. I 21 never put eyes on it. I know that there was 22 equipment in office and 23 office, the two comm techs in that same office, 24 and there was equipment that was in that room 25 that was part of that system. EFTA00112630 1 2 3 4 5 6 techs had equipment, the live equipment for the 7 recorder, everything in their room that they 8 could access? 9 MR. : There was some kind - yeah, 10 there was something related to the camera 11 system that was in a cabinet in their office 12 that was related to that and that's why in that 13 office they also had a secured cabinet for shop 14 stock and supplies. And if any of that stuff 15 would have got delivered and I knew about it, 16 that's exactly where I would have put it was in 17 that cage. 18 MR. : The comm techs in their 19 office, did they have live monitoring, monitors 20 set up for the cameras? 21 MR. : What do you mean by that? 22 MR. : Like for the video. You know 23 how the SIS shop has - you can watch the live 24 videos throughout the institution? They have a 25 few of them that are up live feed. 94 MR. room? MR. : : What equipment was in that I have no idea, I just know it was, MR. like, : in So a locked cabinet. you're saying the comm EFTA00112631 95 1 MR. : That's what I was trying to 2 say. I don't know what equipment's involved 3 behind that, but they had the ability to watch 4 video from the cameras in their office. 5 MR. : And --. 6 MR. : And like I said, I've never 7 seen that at any of the other institutions I 8 was at. It was always the comm tech goes to 9 SIS, puts their hands on the equipment and 10 fixes it, does whatever they've got to do. 11 MR. : When --? 12 MR. : MCC New York, I don't know if 13 it's because of the age of the institution or 14 not, but they did - I don't know what the 15 equipment is, but they -- 16 MR. : Excuse me. 17 MR. : -- have the ability to see 18 footage from their office. 19 MR. : Did they have TVs set up on 20 their wall or was it just on their computer 21 screen? 22 MR. 23 MR. 24 MR. 25 yeah, they : No, the had TVs on a wall. : And do you --? : I don't know how - they had - had - I don't know how they monitor EFTA00112632 96 1 it, but they did have TVs on the wall, at least 2 one that I can remember. 3 MR. : And you recall being in the 4 comm techs' office and you could see the live 5 feeds on their wall? 6 MR. : No. I 7 I never witnessed any 8 that it was discussed 9 internal things where 10 in there. 11 MR. : And you believe in that 12 little - the cabinet that was locked up in 13 their office they had - those were the actual 14 DVRs, the recorders, were inside the office? 15 MR. : I don't know what the 16 equipment was, I just know that they had the 17 ability to monitor cameras in their office. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 20 in there, but I am assuming that if they had 21 the ability to monitor the cameras, they have 22 some sort of equipment in there, unless for 23 some reason or another somebody ran -- 24 MR. : Is it possible -- 25 MR. : -- wires from it. remember seeing a TV. live footage, but I know through just variable they had that capability EFTA00112633 97 1 MR. : -- for like the night 2 supervision, like if they had supervision 3 access, they could log in and view cameras off 4 their computer system? 5 MR. : I don't know. If they had 6 any kind of access like that, I wasn't aware of 7 it. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : I always - I just had a hard 10 time - I just never seen that before. They 11 shouldn't - you know, the only time a comm tech 12 is dealing with camera stuff is when there is 13 there's a repair or maintenance involved. You 14 know, they shouldn't be able to, at least in my 15 opinion and from what I've seen at other 16 institutions, be able to just hit a power 17 button and turn on a monitor and see footage, 18 whether live or recorded. 19 And then the fact that that was in their 20 office, you know, was just astonishing to me. 21 It was new to me, and the only thing that kept 22 me somewhat at bay was that it was - the comm 23 techs were the only trade in the whole entire 24 department who didn't have inmates working for 25 them because of this - the equipment they had EFTA00112634 98 1 access to. Which is also a reason they can't 2 get a lot of work done so quick is because they 3 don't have inmate (Indiscernible *1:42:19). 4 They're the only people in the entire 5 Facilities Department who doesn't get any 6 inmate labor help because of the equipment and 7 stuff that they have access to. 8 MR. : Where was the office located, 9 the comm techs' office? 10 MR. : It was over - it was 11 downstairs in the basement and it was between 12 the Safety Office and Food Service. 13 MR. : Okay. That's all I have. 14 Agent , do you have anything else? 15 MR. : No, I don't think so. 16 MR. : Mr. I know it's been 17 - I told you it's going to be a short interview 18 and it's been almost two hours now. Thank you 19 for being patient. I know we went back and 20 forth. As mentioned, you know, a couple 21 things threw us for a loop because our idea of 22 what transpired, how things transpired, 23 complete changed at this point, but we might 24 have questions, follow-up questions for you in 25 the future, and is it okay if we reach back out EFTA00112635 99 1 to you if we have more questions? 2 MR. : We'll probably do it via 3 email just so that we're not taking more of 4 your time and then you can have a moment to 5 actually review it and then just send us 6 something back, so we're not going probably 7 interview you again or anything like that. 8 MR. : Yeah, that's fine. I just - 9 like I said, the - you're saying I threw you 10 guys for a loop. You guys threw me for a loop. 11 I mean, some of that stuff on that paperwork is 12 just - I mean, reading it as it is, it just - I 13 don't know, but yeah, I guess if you need me 14 again just give me a shout, send me an email, 15 or whatever the case may be, and I'll send you 16 the bill for lunch. 17 MR. : If you think about anything, 18 if you feel like you thought about something 19 that popped in, your memory got refreshed while 20 you're sitting there, you want - send me an 21 email. 22 MR. : I got you. 23 MR. : Thank you again for taking 24 the time to talk with us, and this is Special 25 Agent . The time is 12:50 p.m. EFTA00112636 100 1 and we are turning off the recorder. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112637 101 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Lisa A. Losleben, Transcriber EFTA00112638