EFTA00112740.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 MARCH 21, 2022 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00112740 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112741 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 The recorder is now on. My name is 3 . I'm a Special Agent with the 4 U.S. Department of Justice Office of the 5 Inspector General New York Field Office and 6 these are my credentials. I don't know if you 7 can see it, Mr. 8 MR. : I could see. 9 MR. : Okay. This interview with 10 former Federal Bureau of Prisons employee 11 is being conducted as part of an 12 official U.S. Department of Justice Office of 13 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 14 date is March 21, 2022. The time is 11:08 a.m. 15 This interview is being conducted via Zoom 16 videoconferencing as, Mr. , you're 17 currently in Kentucky; is that accurate? 18 MR. : Correct. 19 MR. : Also present is DOJ/OIG 20 Assistant Special Agent in Charge 21 . This interview will be recorded by 22 me, Special Agent Could 23 everyone please identify themselves for the 24 record and spell your last name? To start 25 again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent EFTA00112742 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 . That's 2 MR. : I am Assistant Special 3 Agent in Charge with the 4 DOJ/OIG, and these are my 5 credentials. 6 MR. : Received. 7 MR. : Mr. can you please 8 identify yourself and spell your last name for 9 the record? 10 MR. : Yeah, my name is 11 . I am a Junior on some 12 documents, and I am a former employee of the 13 DOJ Federal Bureau of Prisons and particular to 14 this matter MCC New York. 15 MR. : Thank you. This is an 16 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the events 17 surrounding the death of Inmate Jeffrey Epstein 18 and you're being asked to voluntarily provide 19 answers to our questions. Will you agree to a 20 voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Just for the record I did 23 email you two forms prior to this interview, 24 one was OIG Form 3-226-2, that is the Warnings 25 and Assurances. And the other form is OIG Form EFTA00112743 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 3-226/10A, which would be the Non-Disclosure 2 Agreement, and you signed - you read both of 3 them, signed them, but for the record I'm going 4 to read them to you and let's start off with 5 the Warnings and Assurances form. 6 The United - the form states: The United 7 States Department of Justice Office of 8 Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to 9 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 10 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 11 provide information as part of an investigation 12 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 13 General. 14 This investigation is being conducted 15 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 16 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 17 performance failure and security failure. This 18 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 19 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 20 action will be taken against you if you choose 21 not to answer questions. Any statement you 22 wish to - you furnish may be used as evidence 23 in any future criminal proceedings or agency 24 disciplinary proceeding or both. 25 The waiver states I understand the EFTA00112744 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. Mr. , you've read the form? MR. : Yes, I have. MR. : You understand the form and you agree to move forward with the interview? MR. : Yes, I do. MR. : And you've already signed the form and you sent it back to me and myself and MR. : (Indiztornible 4-00:03:43)Correct. MR. : ASAC will sign the document after the interview. The second form states: Department of Justice Office of Inspector General Non-Disclosure Agreement. I, , understand that the Department of Justice Office of Inspector General OIG will allow me to review certain documents in connection with my remote interview with the OIG on March 21, 2022, in order to facilitate that remote interview. A copy of the documents EFTA00112745 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 shown to me during my interview with the OIG 2 labeled OIG Documents will be made part of the 3 OIG record of that interview. 4 As a condition of being granted access to 5 review the OIG interview documents, I agree not 6 to make an audio or video recording of the 7 interview, excuse me, and I also agree that 8 until the OIG's final report or a summary of 9 the final report is released to the public I 10 will not copy, photograph, discuss, or disclose 11 any information from or about the OIG interview 12 documents I review to anyone other than the 13 OIG, my attorney if I have legal counsel who 14 also executes a non-disclosure agreement with 15 terms similar to this agreement, or other 16 specifically authorized by the OIG after any 17 such person executes a non-disclosure agreement 18 with terms similar to this agreement. 19 I further agree that even after the OIG's 20 final report or a summary of the final report 21 is released to the public I will not discuss or 22 disclose any information from or about the OIG 23 interview documents that are not contained in 24 or that are redacted from the publicly released 25 final report or summary of the final report. EFTA00112746 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 These provisions are consistent with and 2 do not supersede, conflict with, or otherwise 3 alter the employee obligations, rights, or 4 liabilities created by existing statute or 5 Executive order relating to (1) classified 6 information, (2) communications to Congress, 7 (3) the reporting to an Inspector General or 8 the Office of Special Counsel of a violation of 9 any law, rule, or regulation, or mismanagement, 10 a gross waste of funds, an abuse of authority, 11 or a substantial and specific danger to public 12 health or safety, or (4) any other 13 whistleblower protection. The definitions, 14 requirements, obligations, rights, sanctions, 15 and liabilities created by controlling 16 Executive order and statutory provisions are 17 incorporate into this agreement and are 18 controlling. 19 Mr. , do you understand that non- 20 disclosure order? 21 MR. : I do. 22 MR. : And you already read the 23 document, you signed it, and you've dated it. 24 Thank you for that. 25 MR. : You're welcome. EFTA00112747 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 MR. : Before I start the interview 2 I would like to place you under oath. Mr. 3 , can you please raise your right hand? 4 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 5 the truth during this interview? 6 MR. : I do. 7 MR. : Thank you. You can put your 8 hand down. Please let me know if you do not - 9 if you don't understand any questions and I'll 10 try to repeat it or rephrase it for you. 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : So we'll start with your 13 background. What is your current home address? 14 MR. : My current home address is 15 and that's in 16 17 MR. : What is your date of birth? 18 MR. _: 19 MR. : And what's your Social 20 Security Number? 21 MR. -: 22 MR. : Thank you. What is your 23 current cellphone number? 24 MR. : Area code 25 MR. : Okay. What's your current EFTA00112748 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what's your highest level of education? 2 MR. : Currently in college still 3 pursuing a bachelor's degree. 4 MR. : Which college? 5 MR. : Probably about a semester ago 6 I was in Champlain College all online out of 7 Burlington, Vermont, and I just recently 8 transferred Gateway Community Technical College 9 right here in my hometown of Kentucky. 10 MR. : And what are you pursuing 11 your bachelor's degree in? 12 MR. : Liberal arts(Indiscernible 13 *00:07:52), yeah. 14 MR. : Do you have an associate's 15 degree? 16 MR. : Credit wise, yes, but 17 formerly, no. 18 MR. : And what did you do prior ts 19 working for the BOP? 20 MR. : Prior to the BOP I was a 21 truck driver delivering fuel, oil, and stuff 22 like that. And prior to that I was down in 23 North Carolina where I was a correctional 24 officer for the State of North Carolina, which 25 is what got me my job into the BOP, my EFTA00112749 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 experience. 2 MR. : Okay. So from - since high 3 school - from high school you started working 4 for the North Carolina BOP or did you do other 5 jobs before that? 6 MR. : Oh, from high school I --. 7 MR. : Various jobs? 8 MR. : Man of many - I - man of many 9 trades. I can't even count how many jobs I've 10 had, but my main career out of everything was 11 truck driving. I was pretty much a truck 12 driver. I drove all kinds of trucks and stuff 13 like that. Then when I met my current wife 14 back in '08 we had moved to North Carolina to 15 be by her family and that's when I acquired a 16 job with the North Carolina Department of 17 Corrections, and then I was down there for two 18 years and did that. 19 We moved back to New York, which is where 20 I went back to driving truck again while I was 21 in the hiring process for the Bureau of 22 Prisons. And then I ended up getting hired 23 with the Bureau of Prisons in November of 2011, 24 and I started at MDC Brooklyn. 25 MR. : How long were you at MDC EFTA00112750 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Brooklyn for? 2 MR. : Right around two years and 3 then I transferred down to FCI Estill in South 4 Carolina, and I was there for about two years 5 or so, got promoted to General Foreman and 6 transferred out to FCC Hazelton, which is 7 complex out in West Virginia, Bruceton Mills, 8 and I did a little over a year there and came 9 out to MCC New York in December of 2016 is when 10 I got to New York. 11 MR. : Was that your first --? 12 MR. : Basically, worked - what's 13 that? 14 MR. : Sorry. Was that your first 15 time at MCC? 16 MR. : Yes. Yep. 17 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 18 MR. : I worked at all three - the 19 worst three prisons in the Bureau of Prisons. 20 MR. : So with the BOP, once you got 21 to MCC in 2016 is that where you spent the rest 22 of your career with BOP at MCC? 23 MR. : It was. I was there - I got 24 there in December of 2016, I think it was right 25 before Christmas and my last day on the job was EFTA00112751 LIMITED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OFFICIAL USE Valentine's Day of 2019. MR. : Okay. MR. : And I was there for that amount of time as a General Foreman. MR. : You --. MR. : Now (Indi3ccrnible *00:10:58) was that February 14, 2019? MR. : That's correct. MR. : Okay. Thank you. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Do you recall your EOD date with the BOP, exact date by any chance? MR. : Yeah, November 6, 2011. MR. : Okay. And when did you graduate from BOP training? MR. : I would have to look that up. MR. : It's okay. If you don't remember it, don't worry about that. We just it's generic question we ask. MR. : I was there for Super Bowl, so if I got hired in November and I was in Glynco for Super Bowl, I would say it had to have been February of `20. No, I'm sorry, '12, 2012, yeah. MR. : So when you started with the EFTA00112752 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 MCC you said you were a general foreman and 2 that was your position up until when you 3 separated from the MCC in February 14, 2019? 4 MR. : Correct. 5 MR. : Okay. And what is your - 6 after you left MCC, what is your current title 7 and what agency do you work for? 8 MR. : I currently work for the 9 General Services Administration Public Building 10 Services, and I am a Building Manager. 11 MR. : Okay. While you were at the 12 MCC as a general foreman, was that your title 13 in 2018 and 2019? 14 MR. : General foreman was the 15 internal kind of phrase. I think the position 16 title officially OPM was Maintenance Mechanic 17 Supervisor. 18 MR. : Hold on, let me write that. 19 MR. : And I was WS-4749, Grade 14, 20 Step Five. 21 MR. : So official title is 22 Maintenance Mechanic Supervisor? 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : And who did you report to? 25 MR. : The facility manager. EFTA00112753 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 MR. : Who was the facility manager 2 at that point? 3 MR. _: 4 MR. : And when did Mr. 5 understanding is Mr. retired from MCC. 6 When did he - according to your recollection, 7 when did he retire from the MCC? 8 MR. : I would probably have to say 9 - I don't know the exact dates because his exit 10 was kind of unique. He didn't actually 11 initially retire; he went out on some kind of 12 other type of leave and eventually it's to my 13 understanding he ended up retiring. But when 14 he had went out all communication stopped with 15 everybody with him. Nobody - he never kept in 16 touch with anybody. He never reached out. Bu - 17 18 MR. : When was that? 19 MR. : I really don't know what 20 hey, I don't know his exact date, but I would 21 probably want to say that I was there for 22 almost maybe just under or right around or 23 another year after he had left. I don't think 24 it was that much because there was several 25 other people locally that had filled in EFTA00112754 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 including me for his position. 2 MR. : So you recall that other 3 people filled in his position while he was gone 4 while you were still there? 5 MR. : Correct. 6 MR. : Okay. So do you believe he 7 left in 2019 or 2018? 8 MR. : I really honestly couldn't 9 tell you. I do remember --. 10 MR. : I think what is 11 trying to ask is not his official retirement 12 date but around when did he leave the MCC and 13 communication with him stopped. I think you 14 said -- 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : -- it was approximately a 17 year before you left? 18 MR. : Yeah. The only thing I can 19 tell you - I don't really know the dates. The 20 only thing I know from what I recall is Mr. 21 had just went to Denver, Colorado, for 22 some kind of facilities manager conference 23 training and he had never returned back to the 24 institution once he went to that training or 25 conference or whatever it was. It had EFTA00112755 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 something to do with facility managers all 2 going out there. And all I know is that when 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he went out there, he went there for a week or so, and he never returned to the institution after that. MR. : Okay. MR. : It was (Indizcorniblo *00:15:21) MR. : Do you know why he left, what happened? MR. : I have no idea. I have no idea. I couldn't tell you. I mean, there was a lot of rumors, but I just know that when he went to that training, it was like he went home after that. He never came back to the institution or that conference, whatever. MR. : Now, do you know if it was personal reasons, medical, or administrative? MR. : I have no idea why he didn't come back although he did make medical issues known to us on the job, that he had some medical issues. MR. : Okay. And you said a few people filled in the position. So his title EFTA00112756 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you said was Facility Manager, right? And what, was he your direct supervisor? MR. : He was, yep. MR. : Okay. And who does the facility manager report to? MR. : The Associate Warden of Operations. MR. : And who was Associate Warden of Operations in end of 2018 if you recall? MR. : So we had three in the time that I was there, and I believe worked under all three of them. So there was and then the last one that was there prior to me leaving was or They called him but I believe his real name was MR. • • , okay. MR. : All three of them had performed - they were the AWO they call it, AW of Operations, which oversaw the Facilities Department, and that's who the facility manager directly reported to. MR. : Okay. And when Mr. left the MCC and that's not when he retired, let me clarify this, (Indioccrniblc *00:17:19) EFTA00112757 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this is when he stepped away for leave purposes, do you recall who took over for hire. initially? MR. : Yeah. So the warden at the time which I can't remember which one it was because there was so much staff that came and went throughout this whole thing, that one time it was the executive assistant who was told to oversee the department, and then at another time the AW oversaw the department. MR. assistant" -- MR. MR. MR. *00:17:59). MR. bit? MR. MR. next person? MR. • • When you say "executive (Indiscernible *00:17:56). -- who was that? (rhonctic Sp. : So he oversaw it for a little : He did, yes. : Okay. And then who was the . He was told to oversee it. And then there was a little bit of a stint where, you know, I could just informally absorbed a lot of EFTA00112758 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 his job duties just to get the department functioning, but I was never actually promoted or paid or anything like that that actually - I was never formally designated as acting or anything like that, I just had to do some of the facility manager functions in order to have the department operational. So I would get my go-ahead for - to do those functions. They would - they oversaw it or approved by either III or at the time. MR. : So they gave you the go-ahead and you went ahead and completed the functions. Do you recall when exactly this time period was when you acted? MR. : I wasn't really designate - I wasn't really acting, I was just - if I had to do - if I had to get something done that a facility manager would normally have to do, I would just go to the - whatever time period it was, if III was over the department or if was over the department, I would have to go to them and say, "Hey, listen, can I go ahead and do this? Can you give me the approval, sign off on it?" and EFTA00112759 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 then I would actually do the act. 2 MR. : Okay. Bear with me a second. 3 Let's see. Maybe this might help -- I have a 4 SigNet contract here, right? And it's multiple 5 questions will be on the SigNet contract -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- and bear with me. I'm 8 going to see if I can share my screen here. 9 This document that I'm showing you, can you see 10 it? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Why is this - how about now? 13 MR. : I got something coming up. 14 Yep, I could see it. 15 MR. : Okay. So this document that 16 I'm showing you is - it says, "MCC New York." 17 It says, "Solicitation Contract Order for 18 Commercial Items Offered to Complete Blocks 12, 19 17, 23, 24, and 30." 20 MR. : Yep. 21 MR. : And it says, "Requisition 22 Number 1064-18." 23 MR. : Yep. 24 MR. : This is just for the record. 25 I'm just reading it, just the top part, so we EFTA00112760 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 know which document this is. The Contract 2 Number states GS-07F as in Frank-0322T, and the 3 Award Effective Date is 09/21/2018. Do you 4 recall -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- this document at all? 7 MR. : I don't see that document, 8 no. 9 MR. : See over here. 10 MR. : But it's not under the 11 facility manager one. I don't recall ever 12 putting my eyes on the document. 13 MR. : This is part - Section 15. 14 You see over here? 15 MR. : Correct. 16 MR. : And it's - it's says 17 "Delivered to Federal Bureau of Prisons MCC New 18 York" and lists you as a point of contact. 19 MR. : Correct. 20 MR. : Now, if we scroll down a bit. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : We're going to scroll down to 23 Page 6 on this document. 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. : It lists you as the EFTA00112761 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 facilities manager. Does this jog your memory 2 at all? 3 MR. : I do. I was always - when 4 had left, I was pretty much assumed the 5 facilities manager. Like I said, I was never 6 formally promoted or even temporarily entered 7 that position, nor was I ever designated as 8 acting. So the fact that that says facility 9 manager, I don't know why or who put that there 10 because I was always a general foreman. I was 11 never, ever in the role of a facility or with 12 -el•ftd4seen+Is+e—te•Oa- full title, whether 13 temporary or permanent, was never a facility 14 manager. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. • 17 MR. 18 MR. : I was never even formally 19 designated as acting, they just pretty much 20 said, "There's no facility manager, is 21 next in the chain of command," so they just 22 referred to me as it. That's what I'm assuming 23 whoever typed this up. 24 MR. : I know it's been about three, 25 four years. I know it's kind of tough EFTA00112762 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 remembering some of this stuff, that's why we 2 trying to pull - we try to pull documents where 3 we believe it could help you. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : I know we have an email. I 6 don't know if this will help a little bit too. 7 This email right here, it says "Regarding 8 forward cameras from to 9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:23:OC)." Who is that? 10 MR. : He was, I believe, the 11 supervisor of the SIS Department at the time. 12 MR. : And was --. 13 MR. : He was like the lead SIS 14 investigator. 15 MR. : Okay. And then we have 16 , who is that? 17 MR. : He was a communications 18 technician that I supervised in the Facilities 19 Department. 20 MR. : And we have III 21 Was that the executive assistant that you 22 mentioned before? 23 MR. : Oh, correct, yep. 24 MR. : And this is dated January 4, 25 2019. EFTA00112763 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Correct, yep. 2 MR. : And we'll go through the 3 email, but it says on the bottom, it says 4 . Is that - that's your signature, CESCO 5 General Foreman-Acting Facility Manager? 6 MR. : Correct. 7 MR. : So I know this is in January 8 4th. I know you mentioned you were always under 9 the title of General Foreman, but you were also 10 not officially acting, but you were still doing 11 the job. Does that help at all jog your 12 memory? 13 MR. : Right. So an email went out 14 by the AW telling all the department heads that 15 when had left that I would be running 16 the Facilities Department until a replacement 17 was found, hence why I would assume the acting 18 part went into my signature line. 19 MR. : Got it. And do you know when 20 this email went out? 21 MR. : That looks like a month 22 before I left according to the date. 23 MR. : No, no, I meant - you said 24 there was an email that went out saying - from 25 the AW saying that you would be acting --. EFTA00112764 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 MR. : Oh. Oh, yeah, I don't - I 2 couldn't - it'd have to have been - it was 3 shortly after - it might have even been from 4 the warden if I'm not mistaken, which was 5 , because I remember whatever happened 6 with down in Colorado and why he didn't 7 come back I remember that the Warden 8 was very, very upset with whatever was going 9 on, and I just remember somebody, I can't 10 recall exactly who - came down to the 11 office, to my office, and spoke to me 12 personally and told me that he would like me to 13 just hold things down until they figure out 14 things, what was going to happen with 15 and see what was going to happen. 16 And then I remember an email going out 17 telling all department heads that I would be 18 to see me for any facilities-related issues -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- because was no 21 longer there. 22 MR. : Okay. So according to this 23 you were acting facility manager, but you were 24 general foreman, but you were acting at this 25 point. And so, on record is it possible from EFTA00112765 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the time that when Warden assigned you the title to when you left were you the acting facilities manager - facility manager? MR. : So I don't - I would - definitely not up until the time I left because there was some butting of heads between me and • and at times where they overrode a lot of decisions that I made that I'm normally supposed to make underneath my title. So -- MR. : Can you give us an example? MR. believe -- at the very, very end I at the time was running the department for the most part at the time that I left. So it wasn't the whole entire time, it was very sporadic. It was just constant change of roles and responsibilities and - but I was definitely at one point - like I said, it was like a - it was just like an informal internal, "Hey, this is . He's going to be the facility manager until we figure out what's going on," and they fill the position, which they had not since I walked out the door. MR. : So basically - my EFTA00112766 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 understanding from what you're saying is on --. 2 MR. : But I guess what you would say is during this time period I would be the guy who would have - if anybody had any questions or concerns involving this contract, they would had to have I guess come to me, yeah. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. Now, do you remember - I know you mentioned that the (Indiaccrnible *00:27:37). previously. Tell me, do you recall if there was an update or upgrade of the camera system going on in - at the MCC in 2018 or `19? MR. : Prior to this right here? MR. : Well, (Indi.scorniblo *00:27:53) ignore this document for a second. Give me - hold on, let me see. We'll come back to that document. Do you recall in general was there an upgrade happening at the MCC for the camera system? MR. : There was an upgrade that started with MR. : Okay. MR. : There was - from what I understand there was camera issues well - going way back well before I even got there, long EFTA00112767 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 before even got there. They had 2 recorder and decoder issues. There was a whole 3 slew of things and I would assume - I would 4 imagine it was probably due to the age of the 5 institution and there was very little 6 infrastructure upgrades and updating and stuff 7 like that. But I remember prior to, you know, 8 me inheriting what started, there was 9 all kind of issues with the cameras from what I 10 heard from internal communications and stuff 11 like that. 12 So started this program, this 13 project, at the request of higherups. I don't 14 really know the backdrop on that, that was in 15 between them. And then I really did not get 16 involved with it at all until he never came 17 back to work. He dropped off and then I just 18 picked up after him. 19 MR. : I kind of missed a key point 20 I wanted to ask. So as a - can you 21 differentiate the job duties between a facility 22 manager and the general foreman? 23 MR. : So basically, the facility 24 manager they keep track of the budget. They 25 authorize expenditures. They obviously EFTA00112768 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 supervise me, and then I in turn supervise the 2 subordinate staff, the wage grade trade guys. 3 But basically, he handled the approval of 4 projects, you know, submitted approvals for 5 projects. He did, like, the five- and 10-year 6 plans for the facility, authorized all the 7 expenditures. He went ahead and sat in on all 8 the department head meetings to give executive 9 staff briefings on what's going on in the 10 department, progress reports, stuff like that. 11 Listen to any concerns that they would have and 12 then he brings it back to us. 13 And in my job, my main job by title is 14 literally - I was in charge of supervising, 15 monitoring, and then the wage grade guys that 16 were below me because I was also wage grade. 17 The facility manager is a GS employee. I was a 18 WS employee just like the rest of the trade 19 guys. And my job was basically to supervise 20 them guys, assign them work, make sure they 21 were coming and going in the facility with the 22 inmates, make sure that they were handling 23 their tools and all that other stuff. I did 24 their performance evaluations and all that 25 other stuff. And the facility manager pretty EFTA00112769 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 much did all that on me. 2 So he was my supervisor. He would 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evaluate me, you know, keep track of my time and all that other stuff. And that's pretty much it. MR. : Who were some of the employees that reported to you? You said the wage employees. Who were the employees that reported to you? MR. : In the Facility Department it was the trade specific wage guys, so you had the communications technicians, engineering technicians, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, HVAC guys. And then each one of those tradesmen have a (Indiaccrnible *00:31:39) cadre of inmates that work for them, so I would go ahead - work orders would come in from all departments, you know, requests, "Hey, can you change a light bulb? Can you unclog the toilet here?" I would give that work order to the appropriate trade guy and then he would take his group of inmates and go out into the institution and fix it and close out the work order, report back to me. MR. : Okay. Agent , any EFTA00112770 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 questions on that before I move forward with 2 the contracts? 3 MR. : Yes, I'm just writing 4 down some follow-up questions. So just - can 5 you just clarify again, when were you actually 6 the acting facilities manager? 7 MR. : It was whenever they wanted 8 me to be basically. It was sporadic and on and 9 off, so --. 10 MR. : Yeah. I got it. You 11 said, like, when or departed 12 they put out an email and then we saw an email 13 that was from January of 2019 that said that 14 you were acting facilities manager but then you 15 said you weren't. 16 MR. : Well, it was in my signature 17 line the acting facility manager, so I think it 18 was just never - I think I rolled with that 19 since left. I think that acting part 20 just stayed in the signature line. But there 21 was --. 22 MR. : After they made the 23 notification that you were the acting facility 24 manager, did they ever tell you that you were 25 not the acting facility manager? EFTA00112771 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 MR. : Yeah, that's why I was saying 2 it was - I bumped heads with executive staff 3 sometimes because I thought a lot of the 4 decisions that they were making weren't in the 5 best interest of the facility at the time. And 6 when I say that I mean, like, infrastructure 7 stuff, you know. And I kind of like - they 8 didn't like the way I prioritized certain 9 things within the department. 10 So there was some conflicts every now and 11 again and that's why the warden would go ahead 12 and say, "Okay. Hey, III, you know what, 13 you're overseeing the Facilities Department 14 now. Have report to you." And then they 15 also did the same thing with at one 16 point where he came in, which was right around 17 the thing and where he was told that he 18 was going to go ahead and - so they were like 19 dual role. They were pretty much - your 20 executive assistant and the facility manager 21 and then your AWO and the facility manager. 22 MR. : So were you still the 23 acting facility manager and they were just 24 overseeing what you were doing to make sure 25 that in your acting capacity you're doing it EFTA00112772 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 right? Or they --. 2 MR. : That's up to interpretation. 3 I didn't have any decision-making power. It 4 had to all go through them -- 5 MR. : But --. 6 MR. -- while (Indiscernible 7 *00:34:33). 8 MR. : But at least in your 9 signature line you maintained the acting 10 facility manager? 11 MR. : I guess. I guess I just 12 never took it out, yeah. But 13 MR. : But was there ever 14 anything official that went out, like there was 15 an official email saying you're the acting 16 facility manager. Was there ever anything that 17 said you're no longer the acting facility 18 manager or - you know what I'm saying, like --? 19 MR. : Yeah, no, not to my knowledge 20 there was - because there was talks because 21 they were dragging on the hiring of a 22 replacement facility manager because 23 case, whatever he had going on on his personal 24 side with the Bureau they couldn't fill the job 25 until they finalized what was happening with EFTA00112773 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 him. They needed like, I guess, an end date or 2 something like that. They needed to know when 3 was falling off the books in order for 4 them to re-post the job. 5 So there was never - it went on for so 6 long. Like I said, it was from the point that 7 I had walked out the door there in February of 8 '19 there was still no facility manager there. 9 And I also know at the time that I walked out I 10 may have not took the word "acting" out of my 11 signature line, but I know I wasn't acting at 12 that time that I had left per se. 13 And I don't recall ever an official email 14 going out saying where I was acting. I 15 remember an email going out saying to all 16 department heads that was no longer 17 around and if anybody needed anything from the 18 facilities department to see me. 19 MR. : Now, were you --. 20 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:36:07). 21 MR. : Through the whole time 22 were you a part of these meetings that you said 23 that the facility manager would be a part of? 24 MR. : Some of them, yes, I was. 25 Yep. EFTA00112774 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MR. : So until the time you 2 left you still were sitting in the meeting the 3 facility manager would sit in then? 4 MR. : I was even in those meetings 5 when the facility manager was there. We all 6 sat in together. 7 MR. : Now, would you have been 8 sitting in those meetings if you were just the 9 general foreman? 10 MR. : At his request if he wanted 11 me to or even if one of the executive staff 12 wanted me there. It all depends on what they 13 would have discussed at that time. 14 MR. : Did you (Indiscernible 15 *00:36:44) --? 16 MR. : He could choose. So the -- 17 MR. : (Indiscernible 18 *00:36:45). 19 MR. -- facility manager could 20 choose to have me there, or he could say, "I 21 got this. Don't worry about, you don't got to 22 come." 23 MR. : So when you were - at 24 least, you know, from the time left 25 until February, were you automatically assumed EFTA00112775 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to be in those meetings or you'd have to be 2 invited to each individual one? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : It's kind of like both. I expected myself to be there because somebody had to represent the department in there, but they also put out a roll call sheet prior to those meetings and if I saw my name on it, I went. 37 MR. : And was your name (Indiccerniblc *00:37:21) on it? MR. : Not always, no. MR. : Okay. No, I'm just trying to get behind were you acting and then you just had someone overseeing you or - yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how because we're - - . MR. : I always had somebody overseeing me, always. MR. : Right. MR. : Because even the facility manager had somebody overseeing him, so (Indloccrniblc MR. : But if you were going to write your resume would you say that you were acting a facility manager for that time? EFTA00112776 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. official. MR. : No, because it wasn't (Indioccrnible *00:37:49)so if well --. MR. : Well, I --. MR. : I'd say that was official. MR. is really. MR. : Yeah. MR. : I couldn't be honest with you. : I don't know what an official MR. : No, if you're acting, if they sent out an email, I would say that's pretty official saying that you're the acting facility manager and you could put it in your signature line. I mean, there's not like --. MR. : I would normally and I thought so, but I also found out also that if you're, like, you know, not temporarily promoted into it and stuff like that and you're not getting paid to do the job - but like I said, I do remember emails going out, I just cannot recall if the word "acting" was put into it or not and if the word "acting" was in it, EFTA00112777 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 but I don't know if I ever recall that or not. 2 I mean, there was several times where it 3 would go out because called in sick or 4 he went on vacation. I just don't recall if it 5 was ever done when he went off permanently. I 6 don't know if that was ever --. 7 MR. : Would it be a fair 8 statement for us to say that you were acting 9 facility manager with oversight? Would that be 10 a fair --? 11 MR. : I --. 12 MR. : Or just tell --. 13 MR. : I guess so. 14 MR. : We just have to document 15 it in our reports of, like, you know, what this 16 person's role was from this time to this time. 17 So in order for us to be clear, I want to make 18 sure that we're not writing something that's 19 inaccurate. It's nothing -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- to do with, like, 22 you're, you know - you know, this is just for 23 our report writing purposes we can say, you 24 know, " went out, you were the acting 25 facility manager from this date until, you EFTA00112778 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 know, February 2019, and then, you know, you 2 clarify that you had oversight from the 3 executive staff in your position and were 4 limited with your facility manager decision 5 making ability." Would that be fair? 6 MR. : Right, because if regardless 7 of whether I was acting or not and whether I 8 had oversight or not, the mere fact that 9 was not there, I still had to do a lot 10 of his duties to keep the department 11 functioning whether somebody deemed me 12 officially acting or not. I was still doing 13 his functions because he was not there. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Under oversight from 16 executive staff. 17 MR. : Yeah, that sounds like 18 acting to me, so I just want to make sure that 19 we are clear there. Like you're just saying 20 you're not acting because you weren't official 21 - you know, you weren't temporarily promoted, 22 but you were performing those duties with 23 oversight. 24 MR. : They would - like I said, he 25 would call in sick and not come into work for a 40 EFTA00112779 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 couple days or go on vacation, so he would put 2 out an email to everybody in the institution 3 saying, " is acting facility manager 4 for the time that I'm out." 5 MR. : And would you --? 6 MR. : And himself, the 7 facility manager. 8 MR. : Oh, prior to 9 going out in 2018? 10 MR. : He would - if he wanted to 11 take a week off and go somewhere, he would put 12 out an email letting the institution and the 13 executive staff know that " will be 14 acting in my capacity while I'm out." Happened 15 all the time. Same thing like me, I would do 16 the same thing and I would designate one of my 17 subordinates as acting for me if I went out. 18 But I do believe that at some point some 19 kind of email went out by one of the executive 20 staff after left that everybody should 21 come and see me for all facility-related issues 22 till further notice. And like I said, 23 came to my office right after we had found out 24 that wasn't coming back shortly after 25 that Denver trip and he told me that I would EFTA00112780 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 have to run the department until they figure 2 out what was going on with him, which was top 3 secret and nobody knew anything. They didn't 4 know nothing, couldn't tell you. 5 MR. : All right. Go ahead, 6 7 MR. : Just to clarify. After you 8 had that meeting with , is that when he 9 sent out that email? 10 MR. : I don't think - I don't know 11 if he was the one that sent it out, I can't 12 recall. I just know some kind of email went 13 out for the department heads and it was also 14 brought up in one of the meetings reminding 15 people that was no longer there and 16 that if they had any facility-related issues I 17 was the one - I was the POC. 18 MR. : Okay. Now, is it okay - I'm 19 going to move forward in the topic. Now, 20 during that time period do you recall during 21 your tenure after left and before 22 left, was there a camera project that 23 was started at the MCC? 24 MR. : It was there. It was already 25 started. I believe when I had gotten there, EFTA00112781 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 they were still doing market research and stuff 2 like that. 3 MR. : Is it in 2016? 4 MR. : What's that? 5 MR. : You said when you started, 6 you're talking about 2016? 7 MR. : There was talks of - there 8 was already camera issues I guess had going on 9 when I had gotten there. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : And I believe - well, it was 12 December of 2016, so nothing happened in '16. 13 I think, you know, because I was - I got there, 14 like, the week of Christmas. So going into 15 '17, I know that there was talks about - it 16 wasn't so much on the cameras, it was on the 17 recorders. There was always constant internal 18 chatter between the comm techs and SIS and 19 everything else on how - I guess they had an 20 older system that was analog and everybody else 21 had digital, but their main gripe was, I guess 22 - and I'm not too familiar with the security 23 side of stuff, I'll be honest with you, I 24 always refer to them when I needed a question 25 answered, but from what I gather, what I EFTA00112782 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 understand, they weren't able to go back in 2 time on the recorders as far as they 3 experienced, I guess, with other institutions. 4 So there was no secret that there was 5 cameras that were not working throughout the 6 facility. Like I said, that was a dead horse 7 from what I understand. They were dealing with 8 broken cameras long before I had even gotten 9 back there. And this recorder issue for 10 whatever reason evolved and turned into camera 11 issues, you know, and exposed the entire 12 infrastructure eventually. 13 MR. : So you mentioned there's two 14 issues. There is one the - there were actual 15 cameras that weren't recording, I mean, cameras 16 that weren't working. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : That means there was no live 19 feed, there's nothing recording either because 20 the cameras itself were broken? 21 MR. : Right. So the - from what 22 understand you had a combination of two 23 problems there. You had some cameras that 24 legitimately were not working. They just 25 there was no communication. There was no EFTA00112783 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 nothing. And then you had other cameras which 2 were in certain cells up in the Special Housing 3 Unit where whether they were working or not, it 4 was to my understanding that there was a lot of 5 damage being done to them by the inmates that 6 were in those cells. So they were either 7 scratching the lenses on the cameras, covering 8 up with wet toilet paper or whatever the case 9 may be. 10 I, myself, I couldn't even tell you if 11 those cameras were ever working. I only knew 12 of one camera in the Special Housing Unit that 13 worked for the cells for the ranges and that 14 was, like, one suicide cell that they had there 15 on J-Range. But I don't - it started out with 16 me, the recorders were the issue, and then they 17 were like, "Oh, okay, we're going to go ahead 18 and spend this money and fix these recorders 19 and get these - this conversion from analog to 20 digital, let's suck in the cameras too that 21 don't work." 22 But I can tell you that I know that SIS 23 was constantly going to the comm techs all the 24 time because they were doing investigations and 25 had no camera footage. It almost seemed like EFTA00112784 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 (Indiscernible *00:45:47). And obviously this 2 was long before the Jeffrey Epstein thing 3 because, you know, I had even left the 4 institution before Jeffrey Epstein got there. 5 This was just for, like, smaller internal 6 investigations that they were doing where they 7 were constantly going to Daniels for the camera 8 footage issues. 9 And the determination was made by 10 and the higherups, I guess, and they said, 11 well, if we're going to go ahead and change 12 this recorder why don't we just go ahead and 13 try to upgrade everything, get some new cameras 14 inside and out. And they even wanted to add 15 cameras to the existing complement because they 16 had a lot of blind spots and then obviously the 17 infrastructure itself, like the wiring and the 18 conduit was all part of that deal. 19 MR. : In your knowledge in 2018 and 20 in `19, how many cameras were there inside the 21 MCC? 22 MR. : I couldn't tell you honestly. 23 There was a lot, but there was also a lot that 24 should have been there. But I do remember 25 had a map of where every single - pre- EFTA00112785 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 existing camera was in the institution and I 2 believe the comm techs also had an inventory 3 tracking sheet, because each one of those 4 cameras had an asset number assigned to it 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- that was in the MTMMS 7 Maintenance Management System. 8 MR. : What was that --? 9 MR. : So - it's on the Maintenance 10 Management System, the --. 11 MR. : MTMS? 12 MR. TMS, yep, Total Maintenance 13 System. So, you know, all that equipment was 14 in there, so you should be able to pull the 15 report out of there. That would list all those 16 cameras including any asset numbers assigned to 17 the associated components that's maintainable. 18 If it's something that's maintainable and could 19 be repaired and it's not like a throwaway. We 20 call it run-to-die. If it's maintainable, 21 reparable, it's worth putting money into it, 22 it's in that system. 23 MR. : Okay. So in the SHU, do you 24 know how many cameras were in the SHU offhand? 25 MR. : No, because it was very EFTA00112786 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 inconsistent because it was to my understanding 2 certain cameras were added throughout the years 3 for certain specific reasons. They would 4 designate certain cells for certain purposes 5 and then they would cancel that purpose and 6 convert it back to a regular cell. I mean, it 7 was just the constant changing of the 8 operations that changed the cameras, and that 9 was just obvious without even knowing the 10 backdrop because you could tell just by the 11 cameras there were so many different makes and 12 models. They weren't all consistent. They 13 weren't all consistent. They weren't the same 14 for the most part depending on what area you 15 were in. 16 MR. : And so, this is -- 17 MR. : So SHU 18 MR. : -- in the SHU you're talking 19 about? You're not talking about 10-South? 20 We're talking about between G, H, J, K, L, M, T 21 that's inside the SHU? 22 MR. : Yes, those for the SHU, as 23 far as I know those were all there pre-existing 24 before me. There was never no camerawork done 25 up there, whether they were working or not. EFTA00112787 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 MR. : But you just mentioned they 2 were adding cameras and taking them out. 3 MR. : Yeah, but I was talking 4 institution wide -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. not just - yeah, not just 7 SHU, you know. It was institution wide. 8 MR. : So let's get back on track. 9 We talked about the fact that started a 10 project and the project - what did that project 11 for the cameras entail? 12 MR. : So I really - for the project 13 the way it was designed, the way we wanted it 14 done was had put this package together. 15 We were going to get - he had the map of the 16 cameras I was telling you about. So we were 17 going to upgrade the existing cameras, add new 18 cameras because took this map, brought 19 it to the executive staff and to SIS and they 20 said, "Hey, listen, this is what we have now. 21 We're going to go ahead and try to get this 22 project. Where do you need cameras?" 23 So they did a tour around the institution 24 and they went ahead and they asked to have 25 other cameras placed, like on certain ranges EFTA00112788 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 that didn't have any coverages. There was, 2 like, a little mini TV rec room in the housing 3 units that had no camera coverage in them. 4 There was a lot of blind spots in certain areas 5 throughout the institution. So they went ahead 6 and they added what they wanted to add. 7 But then also because the recorder was 8 getting upgraded, the infrastructure that was 9 in place because it was analog, obviously it 10 was going to go to digital, they had to run new 11 wiring, new conduit. All that had to be done. 12 So under that contract, last I remember 13 walking out that door, what happened was it 14 came in over a million dollars originally and 15 somebody came back and said, "Listen, we need 16 to get this to 800,000 or lower." Somebody 17 threw out a number there, I don't remember who 18 it was. It came through and somebody 19 up top said that because of some kind of 20 procurement avenue or regulation or something, 21 they would've had to go through a whole 22 different procurement avenue because of that 23 amount. They said to make it easier and to try 24 and increase our chances of getting this money 25 and getting it done, we had to bring the number EFTA00112789 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 down to like 800,000 or something. I don't 2 remember the exact number. 3 So then the decision was made because 4 originally we did this contract, whoever we 5 were purchasing the cameras from, they were 6 also supposed to install those cameras. We 7 paid for the labor for them to do the entire 8 project initially. My guys weren't going to 9 touch anything, they were just going to provide 10 support. So the initial $1 million number was 11 to have the contract SigNet, I guess it was in 12 that contract, whoever we were getting those 13 cameras from, they were going to go ahead and 14 do the install and we would supervise them, 15 escort them, and give support when they came. 16 So when they came back and told us that 17 that number needed to get down below 800 or 18 whatever, that's when the decision was made to 19 where they said, "Okay. We can do this. We 20 can just have the contractor install the 21 cameras and we can use the trade guys, the 22 electrician and the comm techs to run the cable 23 and the wiring to save on the labor, to bring 24 the labor costs down to try and get into that 25 number." EFTA00112790 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 And that was the last - that's how I left 2 off. That's how the project was supposed to be 3 done, because when I was there, my last year 4 that I was there for the better - for the 5 second half of '19, well, '18 into '19, the 6 electrician and the comm techs had already 7 started running conduit in the housing units 8 and stuff like that. They had already begun to 9 hang conduit. But I could tell you from the 10 right up till I walked out that door there were 11 never no cameras or even wiring for that matter 12 in that institution. They were never there. 13 MR. : So we'll come to that. So 14 that's some of the questions I have. I'm going 15 to share -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- back my screen. Do you 18 recall if this was the contract that was 19 awarded? It looks like it states on Line 17A. 20 It's the same document I showed before. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : This says SigNet Technologies 23 and it's to Federal Bureau of Prisons. And if 24 you scroll down to page - looks like it's Page 25 4, it lists the schedule of supplies. EFTA00112791 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yep. 2 MR. : What was - were these the 3 items the contract listed and does the contract 4 through SigNet all the purchase of all the 5 items for the upgrades inside MTC? 6 MR. can you scroll 7 back up there because I want to make sure it's 8 the right institution on this? 9 MR. : So this one - yeah, don't 10 look at - this - what you see FCI Fort Dix 11 (Indiscernible *00:54:15). I must clarify. 12 FCI Fort Dix handles all the payments on the 13 East Coast. 14 MR. : Oh, okay. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Sorry about that. 17 MR. : They do all - they did all 18 the contracting for MCC New York and MDC 19 Brooklyn because they didn't have in-house 20 contractors at the facility institutions. 21 MR. : So --. 22 MR. : And I see below it says, 23 "Delivery Date September 28, 2018, MCC New York 24 Camera System." 25 MR. : Yeah. So that's --. EFTA00112792 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : I'm going to come back to 3 that part too. So over here, this is all the - 4 these are all the technology, well, the pieces. 5 Let's go through it, just - we'll go through it 6 quickly. It says for this license, the single 7 license for Nice Vision Enterprise package 8 audio channel, it looks like Vision Smart Hub 9 Recorder. This might be the recording system 10 that you're talking about, Mr. 11 MR. : I would - I guess so. I'm 12 going to guess. I'm not a comm tech. For now, 13 I'll say yes. 14 MR. : No problem. And there's a 15 recorder (Indiscernible *00:55:04) licenses and 16 then it looks like a package major version, 17 then we got the decoders. We got the AMS and 18 Nice Vision supporting 16 cameras, the IP 19 cameras. Now, you mentioned that this - if 20 this is the contract that was awarded, was the 21 plan to replace every camera inside the MCC or 22 replace only certain cameras? 23 MR. : I was under the impression it 24 was every camera we purchased for them, so if 25 you're looking at that Line Number 9 where it EFTA00112793 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 says SigNet labor for a quarter of a million 2 dollars -- 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- they better have installed 5 every damn camera because that was my 6 intention. That's what I was - thought I was 7 paying for was -- 8 MR. : So they're replacing -- 9 MR. -- you know, for them to --. 10 MR. : -- every camera - current 11 camera in the MCC plus adding additional 12 cameras? 13 MR. : Correct, yep. 14 MR. : And the total here says 15 698,108, and what you mentioned a little while 16 before was initially the contract was over a 17 million dollars and your understanding was this 18 part right here, this SigNet labor was much 19 higher and the idea, the proposal that came 20 around was to get rid of the SigNet labor in 21 terms of the conduit, wiring, the wiring, to be 22 done by in-house comm techs and electricians so 23 that this labor -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. -- cost of whatever the total EFTA00112794 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was would come down and would be below the 2 $800,000 mark in total? 3 MR. : That was my - I don't know 4 what the numbers exactly were but that was my 5 understanding was that in order to drop that 6 quote down, we had to cut back on - they just 7 said, you know, "Let's go ahead and cut back on 8 the labor on the wiring side," which is why the 9 guys started running conduit in-house on their 10 own because it was to my understanding that's 11 what got cut from the contract. 12 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 13 happen to recall offhand what the initial 14 SigNet labor proposal was, right? 15 MR. : I just remember the original 16 first estimate that went out came back when 17 was still here was like over a million 18 dollars. 19 MR. : Okay, the total. Okay. 20 MR. : The total, yeah, uh-huh. 21 MR. : And based on this, it looks 22 like Line 8 it shows IP cameras. It looks like 23 the quantity is 135. Then it says the Corner 24 VEN cam. That looks like there's 75 pieces. 25 So you're looking at over 200 cameras in total EFTA00112795 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that was ordered. MR. : Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. MR. : One thing I don't see in here - well, maybe you can explain it since I don't see. Do you see the order for the conduits in here, the wiring? MR. : No. MR. MR. if . MR. that? : But if that was part of the - (Indioccrniblc *00:58:01)But Who was supposed to provide MR. : You have - so I believe - we had a lot of conduit left over at Building 4. It was a warehouse that we had in Brooklyn that belongs to MCC New York. It's like their food service warehouse and facilities had a storage and I guess they had a whole bunch of conduit there from a surplus from another project, so they started bringing that stuff over to the institution and using that. The wiring I believe was purchased separately through - I don't remember the company's name. The comm tech would know because he did the order, but EFTA00112796 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 we purchased that through - what is the website 2 where you buy stuff from GSA? 3 MR. : I'm not sure. I'm not 4 familiar with the purchasing department. But 5 it was purchased through GSA according to your 6 memory? 7 MR. : Well, it's a website GSA has. 8 MR. : GSA Advantage or 9 something? 10 MR. : That's it. Yeah, so all 11 these companies sell their stuff on this GSA 12 website, GSA Advantage, and I know all of the 13 quotes for that wiring and stuff came from 14 vendors off that website. That's where were - 15 it was eventually purchased through a separate 16 procurement I believe, if it wasn't part of 17 this, I can't even recall. But I do remember 18 the shopping for the wiring being done on GSA 19 Advantage through a vendor there. 20 MR. : Okay. This might sound like 21 22 MR. : I just don't remember. 23 MR. : Sorry. This might sound like 24 a dumb question. 25 MR. : I just don't remember. EFTA00112797 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 MR. : What's the difference between 2 a conduit and a wiring? 3 MR. : So the conduit is the metal 4 pipe that you see running across or up and down 5 a wall that runs into little junction boxes and 6 the wiring just runs into it. 7 MR. : So --. 8 MR. : Runs through it. 9 MR. : So that's a protection, the 10 conduit, it's an actual protection over the --. 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah, it's metal or it 12 could be PVC, but obviously in the institution 13 it was metal and you run the conduit and you 14 run the junction boxes and everything and then 15 you pull your cable through it and it's 16 basically a protective housing to protect the 17 wiring and keep it from being exposed. 18 MR. : And according to your memory, 19 do you recall whose decision it was to have the 20 in-house staff do the conduits and the wiring? 21 MR. : It came down from the 22 executive staff, but that was discussed, jeez, 23 I can't even remember. That was back when the 24 numbers started flying in and they were trying 25 to find out ways to bring the numbers down and EFTA00112798 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 everything, but it was somebody higherup that 2 made the decision to try and cut there on the - 3 when they saw how much the labor was, they were 4 like, "Well, maybe we could cut back on the 5 labor," because it was my goal that if they 6 were going to spend this kind of money, you 7 might as well have the contractor do 8 everything. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And all my hopes and dreams 11 got killed because they saw the number and 12 wanted to cut some fat and - but --. 13 MR. : No problem. See on the 14 bottom, it says - it was - the document 15 "Signature Offer Steven Smith." It looks like 16 you signed on 09/21/2018 and that's - he works 17 for SigNet Technologies. And Line 31A that's - 18 looks like U.S. Government, that's 19 (Phonetic Sp. *1:01:38), and that was 20 signed on 09/21/2018, and he's a Section Chief 21 FAO. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : And the delivery date on Line 24 20 up here, it says, "Estimate" - well, I don't 25 know if it's estimate, but it says, "Delivery EFTA00112799 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 date is on 09/28/2018." It says, "MCC New York 2 camera system: provide services in accordance 3 with SFS, SOW, and technical proposal." And it 4 looks like GSA, GSO7F-0322T. It looks like the 5 contract number's in here too. It looks like 6 based - looking at this, the contract, the 7 estimate was - I mean, the contract states that 8 the delivery for all that equipment and 9 everything that was ordered was scheduled to be 10 delivered at the MCC on September 28, 2018. 11 According to your recollection, do you 12 recall if all these items were delivered to the 13 MCC in September 2018? 14 MR. : Can we go back to when this 15 contract was drafted? Okay. So you see here 16 where the award was 09/21? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : And then the delivery date is 19 09/28, that's a week. There is no way, no way 20 - I'm not even going to - I shouldn't have to 21 go any further, but I'm going to do it anyway. 22 There's no way you could deliver a product like 23 that - the install alone if the contractor 24 would have did it would have taken well over a 25 year. Just the install alone for that kind of EFTA00112800 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 equipment if they were to do everything soup to 2 nuts on their own, conduit and everything, 3 would have took a year. 4 MR. : But is it --? 5 MR. : So -- 6 MR. : Where is the equipment coming 7 from? 8 MR. I'm thinking that that 9 delivery date is the date they delivered the 10 contract to the contractor because there's no 11 way you can award a contract and expect to have 12 everything that's in that contract in seven 13 days get done. Delivery date I think is when 14 they delivered the contract to the contractor. 15 But to answer your question, as of February 14th 16 of 2019, my last day there, there was not a 17 single camera on-site there 18 MR. : Is it possible -- 19 MR. -- because -- 20 MR. : -- the cameras 21 MR. : What's that? 22 MR. were delivered without 23 your knowledge? Is it possible the cameras 24 would have been delivered without your 25 knowledge? EFTA00112801 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. : That place, absolutely. But 2 I could tell you this much, two things wrong 3 with that. Number one, it was my impression 4 that the contractor when they received all the 5 cameras and got all the cameras in stock and 6 everything was on-site and they had all the 7 equipment on-site and everything was in stock, 8 they were bringing it with them. I didn't - I 9 don't know if they were going to dropship that 10 or not and have the stuff delivered directly to 11 the institution and then come afterwards. But 12 even if that was the case, somebody would have 13 to had gone to the rear loading dock where that 14 stuff comes in and there's a logbook back there 15 and they would've had to sign for that delivery 16 and it would've had to been somebody in the 17 facilities department. 18 MR. : So you're under the 19 impression that - when you say "contractor," 20 you're talking about SigNet? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : So you're under the 23 impression that SigNet was supposed to bring 24 all that equipment with them when they come in 25 to install? EFTA00112802 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Correct. 2 MR. : So you're not sure --. 3 MR. : We paid them to install it, 4 so to me contractually wise there would have 5 been too much liability there to have the stuff 6 shipped directly to the institution and then 7 call the contractor up and say, "Hey, come in, 8 all the stuff is here," because if something 9 was missing or broken, because the contractor 10 didn't have chain of custody of that equipment 11 the whole entire time, they could blame us. We 12 had a lot of liability on our hands and we 13 would still have to pay the contractor 14 regardless. We wouldn't be able to hold them 15 liable for any damages as far as that goes. 16 So my impression was when we did this 17 everything was going to go to SigNet or SigNet 18 was purchasing it and when everything was in- 19 house they would come and bring everything with 20 them and install it. 21 MR. : I have an email here. I'm 22 going to show this to you. This email is from 23 Justin Houston. He's a program manager for 24 SigNet Technologies and 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00112803 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 MR. : -- this is addressed to me. 2 It says, "I wanted to send this to you in 3 regards to the questions you asked." This is 4 dated October 1", Friday, 2021, and this is -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. -- from Justin Houston to 7 myself. And he states, "Hey, . I wanted 8 to send this to you in regards to the question 9 you asked regarding if they had new gear on- 10 site. Attached is the PO that we received on 11 09/21/2018. The gear was delivered around 30 12 days after that and on 11/01/2018 I sent over 13 the paperwork for the site to submit for the IP 14 addresses needed to install the system. I will 15 forward the email traffic as well." 16 It looks like based on what he stated - 17 let me see if I can get this. Actually, this 18 is the contract itself. It looks like he's 19 stating that by 09/21/2018 that's - the 20 contract was signed, and it looks like within 21 30 days all the gear was delivered. But you're 22 stating you don't believe the gear was 23 delivered? 24 MR. : Nope, not at all. 25 MR. : Is it possible that he was EFTA00112804 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 now you - based on what your statement, you 2 believe the gear might have been delivered to 3 them. 4 MR. : Well, that's my problem is he 5 doesn't clarify what gear means. I don't know 6 what gear means. Does gear mean just the 7 cameras? Does it mean just the wire? Does it 8 mean the entire contents? I don't know what he 9 - does it mean just the recorder. He's not 10 clarifying what gear means. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Going back to what I said, I 13 could tell you that unless somebody signed for 14 something without my knowledge and didn't tell 15 me about it, there was no cameras on that. 16 There was no gear. They were just hanging 17 conduit when I leave there and that was conduit 18 that we owned that we didn't even purchase. It 19 was already there. So --. 20 MR. : If gear was delivered, where 21 would it have been delivered to at the MCC if 22 the items - all these items were delivered? 23 MR. : So it would've had to gone to 24 the rear dock. The rear gate they called it. 25 And then there's a Shipping and Receiving EFTA00112805 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 personnel there, staff, and they have a big 2 cage that's in that loading area, so all the 3 deliveries go in there and then they would 4 write down who had deliveries, call those 5 departments and say, "Hey, you need to send 6 somebody to come pick up your stuff. You got 7 stuff here." So whoever that person was to go 8 there to pick up the stuff would have to sign 9 the logbook saying that they picked up the 10 stuff. 11 But you're talking about a truck loading 12 stuff that wouldn't even have fit in that cage. 13 It would've been like pallets and stuff like - 14 it would have been huge to store that stuff. 15 It would've had to have, you know - and then, 16 you know, it's all electronic stuff. That's 17 why I don't recall that stuff being delivered 18 prior to the - but I was under the impression 19 the contractor was coming with that stuff. I 20 was not under the impression that that was 21 going to get delivered separately, and if did 22 it wasn't to my knowledge. 23 I never saw a single new camera while I 24 was there or recorder or anything like that and 25 somebody would've had to have signed for that. EFTA00112806 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 And then we would have had to have - there 2 would have had to have been inventory taken to 3 put that in storage and somewhere in the 4 Facilities Department. 5 So like I said, going back to the 6 contract, they awarded it on the 21st and wanted 7 it done by the 28th, that's just totally 8 unrealistic and irrational. I don't -- 9 MR. : Now -- 10 MR. see that. 11 MR. if the things that you 12 purchased from them, would have that been the 13 material as well that your staff members would 14 have been using to run the conduit and wiring 15 and things? Is that part of that purchase 16 order or is that something you were going to be 17 receiving yourself and --? 18 MR. : So I was under the impression 19 that SigNet was going to wait until they had 20 all their equipment, wherever they get it from 21 or whoever they're buying it from or who their 22 supply is, when they have everything they need 23 to do the job that's within the scope of work 24 of the contract, they were going to come on- 25 site with everything and begin doing the work EFTA00112807 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 themselves. The only that -- MR. : I thought you MR. -- my guys --. MR. : I'm sorry, go ahead. MR. : The only thing my guys - yeah. The only thing my guys were going to do was install the conduit. The wiring if I remember correctly was purchased separately through that GSA Advantage website and it was through - I remember it was through a vendor that they had purchased from previously in the past, the comm shop, for regular supplies and stuff. It was just like a regular cabling/wiring company that had a GSA schedule on that site. And that would have been delivered directly to the institution. MR. : I apologize. I have one more email. I'm going to share this with you too. MR. : Okay. MR. : This is Anixter TP-120, 240 and SigNet Tech. This is from (Phonetic Cp. *1:11:01) to- - there's a whole bunch of names: (Phonetic Sp. *1:11:09), EFTA00112808 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 , the people listed. It's dated 2 on April 1, 2019. Subject is Anixter TP-120, 3 240, and SigNet Tech. It says, "Good 4 afternoon, Ms. After reviewing my CORS 5 Report for the Central Office supplies samples, 6 I went ahead and askedill our comm tech 7 on the status of these particular PO's and he 8 advised me that they haven't been able to 9 receive the fiber cable and without the cable 10 they cannot - they can't proceed with the 11 camera systems. He mentioned that the 12 company's requiring some sort of documentation 13 and he would be - he should be able to provide 14 you with the details. Sincerely, 15 Financial Program Specialist, U.S. Department 16 of Justice, BOP." 17 Now, does that help clarify anything? 18 MR. : Yeah -- 19 MR. : I know this is --. 20 MR. : -- it just tells me that - it 21 verifies what I said, that there was no cameras 22 or wiring or anything on-site there at the time 23 that I left. It was just not there. But it 24 also makes sense that if these - the wiring 25 isn't there, they can't hook up the cameras. EFTA00112809 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 But what got me - where I'm concerned, I guess, 2 with this is who were they talking to here 3 because this would have to be a problem with 4 SigNet. If SigNet's installing - connecting 5 the wires to the cameras and everything like 6 that, I don't know who they're really 7 addressing in that email. 8 MR. : It looks like it's more 9 internal email, right? And they're trying to 10 figure out what exactly - why the camera 11 systems have not been installed yet. It looks 12 like told them that the status 13 of the fiber cable is not in, like the fiber 14 cable or cables have not been delivered, right? 15 I'm sorry. And without the cables they can't 16 proceed with the camera systems. 17 MR. -: Well, yeah, that's cause and 18 effect. Yeah, so that's accurate as I read it. 19 The fact that it's three years since I left 20 there and there's still no wiring there is kind 21 of intriguing in itself. 22 MR. : Well, this is 2019. This is 23 like a couple months after you left, April 1, 24 2019. 25 MR. : Oh, I got you. Okay. Yeah. EFTA00112810 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 MR. : So that Anixster, would that 2 be the company? Would that be one of those 3 companies that provides wiring? 4 MR. : Possibly, yeah. I guess so. 5 I'm not --. 6 MR. , I just sent you 7 an email. Can you just share your - or scroll 8 down to the second email and just - so that 9 maybe this will help -- 10 MR. Bear with me. 11 MR. -: -- clarify what was 12 received and what wasn't. 13 MR. : Okay. Share your screen. Is 14 this the - you want me to scroll all the way 15 down? 16 MR. : No. It would be the one 17 that says - what I sent you was the - did you 18 receive what I sent you -- 19 MR. : Sorry. 20 MR. -: the email from Steve 21 Smith? It was from Mobile -- 22 MR. : Oh, it's on the bottom, okay. 23 MR. : -- to Steve Smith -- 24 MR. : Yeah, it's on the bottom of 25 that. EFTA00112811 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- that 2 MR. : Right here. 3 MR. : That's it. Not on the 4 bottom. It's middle. 5 MR. : Right here. It's in the 6 middle. So this is an email documentation from 7 Steve Smith, that's 8 dated -- 9 MR. : Share your screen. 10 MR. : Oh, I apologize. I thought 11 it was shared. Sorry, go ahead. Can you see 12 that? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : We're talking about this part 15 right here. 16 MR. : Correct. 17 MR. : It says, I didn't 18 want to leave you hanging, so this is what we 19 know so far. It appears that FedEx might - 20 must recycle tracking numbers. The order was 21 placed on 09/27/2018 from SigNet to Qognify. 22 Nice and Divisional(Indisccrnible *1:15:29) PO 23 shows it was shipped directly to the site, MCC 24 New York. It shows that it was scheduled to 25 ship on 09/30/2018 from Qognify. We currently EFTA00112812 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 don't have the tracking that shows when you 2 exactly received it but best guess is seven to 3 14 days, which would put it on your dock around 4 October 14, 2018, and it was installed the week 5 of August 16, 2019. We will try to continue - 6 we will continue to try and find the tracking 7 information for when it actually hit your dock. 8 Let me know if you need anything else." 9 MR. : Yeah. So that was going to 10 be my next question is: Where is any tracking 11 information on this? And then if FedEx does 12 recycle tracking numbers, that's definitely 13 news to me. But also, when this email - what 14 are they saying they shipped? 15 MR. : It looks like it was a 16 question about the camera system that was on- 17 site at MCC. They're talking about 18 specifically the camera system that was sent 19 from SigNet -- 20 MR. : It doesn't say that. 21 doesn't say that. It doesn't tell them what 22 they're - it doesn't even - forget about the 23 fact they don't have no tracking - it doesn't 24 even say what they're talking about other than 25 if we could identify what the - I don't even EFTA00112813 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 know what that Qognify stuff is. That doesn't 2 even look familiar to me. 3 MR. : So Qognify is the company, 4 the parent - the company that they deal with 5 for the Nice video system. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So they are the ones who 8 handle --. 9 MR. : So that would tell me then 10 that's only going to be that component that was 11 delivered, which still if it was delivered, I 12 had no knowledge of it while I was there. 13 MR. : And you're saying if it comes 14 in that pallet - let's just say the MCC 15 received a truckload of something like that and 16 it can't be housed inside the MCC at that 17 location, where else could it be housed? 18 MR. : Well, I don't think - it 19 could be housed there, it just wouldn't be in 20 that warehouse there. It would have to be in 21 some other secure location within the facility, 22 like somewhere in the Facilities Department. 23 Most likely probably, like, in the comm shop or 24 something like that someplace. 25 MR. : But if this --. EFTA00112814 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 MR. : I wouldn't necessarily say 2 that it would be stored offsite. 3 MR. : Hey, just scroll 4 above to the email that I sent. It's 5 specifically with regard to Nobile. He said 6 that it's the camera system that was installed 7 on the 19th. I mean, and if you don't know, 8 Nobile was the acting facilities manager from 9 February through March of - or May of 2019 and 10 then became the permanent facilities manager or 11 facility manager. 12 MR. : Yeah, I believe he walked in 13 right as I walked out or right after or 14 something like that. It was very close. 15 MR. : So he's telling us that 16 the camera system - you know, everything that 17 they installed was already on-site and that's 18 what he had told us. So he's saying it was on- 19 site by the time he got there, so we're just 20 getting confused when you're saying that it 21 wasn't there because he said it was already 22 there when he got there. 23 MR. : I never laid eyes on it, and 24 I was never made aware that those cameras were 25 on-site in my whole entire time that I was EFTA00112815 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there. Somebody would have had to sign for them. There's got to be some kind of tracking information, and then like I said -- MR. : So (Indizcorniblo *1:18:l0). -MR. : -- going back -- MR. : No. MR. : I was under the impression the contractor was bringing the cameras, not being delivered separately without the contractor. MR. : So according to his email, you know, they're claiming that beginning of October 2018 is when they would have arrived, so is that - were you acting at that point or was still there? MR. : Like I don't know, I can't - I would need to know the date that acted his last day on the job. And the only milestone I can give you for that is, like I said, when he went on that Colorado training trip, he just never came back from that. MR. : Well, last time we spoke - last time - my understanding is when left is August of 2018 was the last time he EFTA00112816 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 stepped foot inside MCC. Does that help? 2 MR. : Yeah, it does, but like I 3 said, I'm just - I never saw anything outside 4 of conduit regarding this project on-site there 5 at that institution. I was never made aware of 6 any of that being there from my - since the day 7 the contract was awarded up until the time, I 8 walked out the door there was no cameras in 9 that building -- 10 MR. : And --. 11 MR. : -- at least to my knowledge. 12 I never was made - I was never told, made 13 aware, never signed for them, never was - 14 nothing. 15 MR. : And if it did come, it says 16 according to - it looks like this is the 17 contract. If it was delivered, it should have 18 been delivered attention to you according to 19 the contract, right? 20 MR. : That's - should have - 21 exactly that's how that should have been done 22 if things are done the way they're supposed to 23 be done, but I never was made aware of any of 24 that stuff. I mean, like I said, it's been a 25 long time, but I never - I don't think there EFTA00112817 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was any - there's no way. 2 MR. : And before - just on a 3 side note, as far as the conduit that needed to 4 be run, how long should've that taken your 5 people to run? 6 MR. : It would have taken a very 7 long time because the department was severely 8 understaffed, and the institution came first. 9 The daily operations of the institution came 10 first. So if you had lights out, you had 11 phones down, you know, stuff like that the 12 tradesmen had to go ahead and take care of work 13 orders and stuff to maintain the institution 14 first and then they would come back and on 15 their downtime and stuff and do work pertaining 16 to this. 17 MR. : Okay. About how many man 18 hours do you think it takes though, I mean, if 19 they actually had worked on it? 20 MR. : It's kind of hard to tell 21 because I don't know the total picture of the 22 routing of where all the cameras were going in 23 addition to the ones that are existing there, 24 but I can tell you that when this whole thing 25 was going on every - we were all short-staffed. EFTA00112818 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 There was a constant flip over of staff, and 2 then you had augmentation going on. 3 My guys were working housing units more 4 than they were in the department and working 5 mandated overtime. So they were covering - 6 augmentation was like you would act as a CO and 7 go up in the housing unit for the shift, and 8 then some of them would get stuck doing 9 overtime for another shift. And then depending 10 on how that fell, they went up there all day 11 working the housing unit, got told they had to 12 work all night, then they were banging on me in 13 the morning because they worked a double before 14 that. 15 So - but I mean, man hours' wise, I really 16 couldn't tell you. I know there's a book out 17 there, electrical code book out there that 18 tells you the standard amount of feet of 19 conduit that can be installed within an eight- 20 hour period, but I mean, it just - that stuff 21 doesn't apply to a prison, especially MCC New 22 York. There are just too much operational 23 changes and stuff on a daily basis that 24 prevented these guys from dedicating 100 25 percent of their work to something like that. EFTA00112819 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Especially being that they already had 2 something in place that was semi-functional. 3 MR. : Just to clarify, I know you 4 mentioned it, said you never received anything, 5 you never signed for anything. If the 6 receiving - if the delivery area received it, 7 right, you said the back - the rear door 8 received it, would they have some kind of log 9 they kept? 10 MR. : Yep, uh-huh. 11 MR. : Where would I find that? 12 MR. : So that log was kept in the 13 cage where the packages were - be delivered at. 14 So inside that - they had one officer dedicated 15 that had one key for that cage back there and 16 that was their job. R & D it was called, they 17 were part of that crew, and they would just go 18 ahead and you get delivery, UPS, FedEx, they 19 would all come in, put all that stuff in a 20 cage, and they would write in the book who it 21 was addressed to, what department, and then 22 they would call you and let you know you had 23 something or send you an email, however the 24 officer chose to do it, and you would go there 25 and sign for it and pick it up. EFTA00112820 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And no one notified you. 2 This - the book that they keep, is it labeled 3 anything specific as you recall? 4 MR. : If I recall correctly, I saw 5 two different versions of the book. One was a 6 binder, a three-ring binder type with a pre- 7 filled out form, and then also there was a 8 have you ever seen those little green 9 government logbooks that are just plain? You 10 know, there was one of those back there at one 11 point. 12 MR. : Okay. And that should tell 13 us when - if and when it was delivered? 14 MR. Yep. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : And in addition to the 17 tracking information, of course, you know, 18 because I believe the three-ring binder part of 19 that - because that's the other thing is if 20 something is getting delivered to me, if I 21 ordered something out of the department, I 22 don't care what it was, a case of light bulbs 23 or, you know, a truckload of conduit or 24 whatever, when that stuff ships this way, the 25 vendor's sending me an email with tracking EFTA00112821 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 information letting me know when to accept it 2 because they know it's coming to a secure 3 institution where the truck and the driver are 4 subject to screening and there's only certain 5 hours that they can deliver during the day. 6 So it's not like a wide open 24/7 7 warehouse obviously. They can only deliver 8 during certain hours. So I would make sure and 9 let everybody know you need to give me the 10 tracking information and I need to know what 11 day that this stuff is coming to me because I 12 need to make sure that I have the arrangements 13 in place to get this delivery accepted and not 14 turned away. 15 MR. : Were you - back then were you 16 in constant communication with SigNet or was 17 there somebody else on your staff that was in 18 communication with SigNet? 19 MR. : The comm techs. We had two 20 comm techs that started with this thing and 21 initialed. I inherited two comm techs when I 22 came there, which both were involved with the 23 project with when he started it. One 24 of them had retired and then one of them stayed 25 behind. He was still there. He was a younger EFTA00112822 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 guy, which is that guy on the email. 2 MR. : And who is the one that 3 retired? 4 MR. : Samuel Yaegly (Phonetic Sp. 5 *1:27:11). 6 MR. : Yaegly. Do you know when he 7 retired? 8 MR. : While I was there. I 9 couldn't give you an exact date. I really 10 couldn't tell you. I'm --. 11 MR. : Was this toward the end of 12 MR. : What (Indiscernible 13 *1:27:26). 14 MR. : -- 2018, beginning of 2019, 15 or was it earlier? 16 MR. : What's that? 17 MR. : Was it towards the end of 18 2018, beginning of 2019 or earlier? 19 MR. : I honestly really couldn't 20 tell you. 21 MR. : Is it possible that SigNo - 22 sent the tracking information to 23 MR. : Very possible. They did a 24 lot of communication from what I understand 25 back and forth that I was not looped in on, but EFTA00112823 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 that was during the pre-contract, pre-planning 2 phases or pre-ordering phase I should say. But 3 yeah, very possible that it could have went to 4 him. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : And it's also very possible 7 it could have went to the contracting officer. 8 Sometimes they do do that. So - and I noticed 9 if you go back to that contract there was that 10 guy O'Valley (Phonetic Sp. *1:28:18) on there. 11 MR. : This is up top. 12 MR. : Do you see his name O'Valley? 13 MR. : This is up here, right here, 14 you're talking about Richard O'Valley. 15 MR. : Yep. So he is what we call - 16 I think he was in the Budgeting Department, but 17 he was what we called the "paper pusher" for 18 Fort Dix. 19 MR. : That would be here? 20 MR. : So basically, he did all the 21 financial stuff for MCC New York. He was the 22 guy that was on-site in the budget office and 23 then all that paperwork, he was technically, 24 like, an employee of Fort Dix. He was working 25 with them in the contracting and budgeting EFTA00112824 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 office of Financial Services. 2 MR. : You're talking about Line 7A 3 where it states Richard O'Valley, R. O'Valley 4 (Indiscernible *1:29:05)? 5 MR. : Yeah. So any time I want to 6 purchase anything, it doesn't matter what it 7 is, he would get the paperwork and then the 8 rest of it's between him and the contracting 9 staff at Fort Dix, the CO at Fort Dix, whoever 10 that CO is. 11 So sometimes with stuff like this, I have 12 seen in other instances where people will look 13 at this contract and they don't - they just see 14 a name and they just put it on there and send 15 them stuff. But I would also like to think 16 that if Richard O'Valley or even , the 17 comm tech, or somebody got a tracking number 18 that they would have had the decency or the 19 common sense or whatever you want to call it to 20 to forward it to me, you know, to send it to 21 me. 22 MR. : Okay. As far as you recall 23 you left in February 14, 2019, and when you 24 left -- 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00112825 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. -- as far as you recall -- 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *1:30:06). 3 MR. -- MCC never received the 4 cameras or anything on this order, which would 5 be that - everything that's listed on Page 4 of 6 this contract order, you don't recall them 7 receiving it. And you believe that --. 8 MR. -: I don't at all. When I left 9 there, they were still hanging conduit when 10 they could -- 11 MR. : And the conduit was -- 12 MR. : -- at times (Indiscernible 13 *1:30:27). 14 MR. : -- items that was already in- 15 house that MCC from a previous project? 16 MR. : I don't - yeah, because I 17 know they had plans to purchase more just in 18 case. But I remember going over to Building 4 19 and there was just racks and racks and racks of 20 conduit that they had over there. The 21 electrician knew - was there, that was part of 22 his overstock for his shop -- 23 MR. : Where was Building 4? 24 MR. : -- that he hung. It's just 25 over the bridge in Brooklyn, an old Navy EFTA00112826 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 shipyard. 2 MR. : The Brooklyn Navy Shipping 3 Yard. 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : So MCC kept 6 MR. : It's right on -- 7 MR. : MCC had a building inside the 8 yard? 9 MR. : Yeah. It's kind of like 10 separated. It was - used to be part of the 11 yard, but it's totally fenced in by itself and 12 there's a big huge warehouse there. And at the 13 time that I had left there, food service, staff 14 from food service ran that operation because 15 they had big giant walk-in freezers and coolers 16 there, which is where they kept a lot of their 17 overstock. 18 But also, every single department in the 19 institution, didn't matter who you was, human 20 resources, trust fund, facilities, everybody 21 had their own separate cages in that warehouse 22 as well to keep overstock supplies for their 23 departments as well. And has its own loading 24 dock, trucks go in and out of there every day, 25 all day with deliveries and all kinds of stuff, EFTA00112827 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 and if it's something that they can't fit at 2 the institution, it goes to Building 4. You 3 can have the driver take it to Building 4. 4 But in this case, I would have never 5 allowed that because I - the supervision and 6 the oversight, there is none out there. At 7 least there wasn't at the time that I was 8 there. There was just one guy running the 9 whole show over there with a handful of 10 inmates. 11 MR. : Okay. Agent , any 12 questions on that? 13 MR. : No. I'm just looking 14 through all the emails from right now. 15 MR. : I don't have much more in 16 terms of questions in terms of follow-up 17 because we covered a lot of details. Bear with 18 me one minute. 19 MR. : Sure. You guys owe me lunch, 20 I could tell you that. 21 MR. : You just threw us for a 22 total loop because we've been proceeding this 23 whole time with the knowledge that these have - 24 were on-site, so that's where we - you've kind 25 of blown our minds here not knowing about it. EFTA00112828 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 MR. : Yeah, I just - I told - I - 2 when Agent Daniels gave me the initial phone 3 call, I was like, wow, 2018. That was like - I 4 just had no - we were still waiting on 5 everything. And even if - I would have 6 expected the contractor to be with them. But I 7 know there was delays with the wiring. The 8 wiring was crazy. They had some crazy delays 9 with wiring. 10 And to be honest with you, something like 11 this just the way that institution was ran, 12 there was just way too many hands in the pot. 13 It was just - two wardens, two AW's, two comm 14 techs, two facility managers it sounds like. 15 There's just too much stuff going on, too many 16 people involved. 17 MR. : You mentioned that Executive 18 Assistant III and 19 , they possibly - you know, I know you 20 were acting facility manager, but at the same 21 time, you know, they instructed you, gave 22 instructions too. Any chance that they had 23 communications with SigNet over this? 24 MR. : I don't see how or why, but I 25 wouldn't say no. I would say that if that did EFTA00112829 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 happen, it would have probably been more with 2 than the AW because he had 3 more interaction with the warden as far as, you 4 know, keeping him abreast of things and stuff 5 like that, so. 6 MR. : And just for the record, the 7 last name , S-T-E-E-L-E? 8 MR. : Correct. 9 MR. : And you mentioned there was 10 other AW's too, Kimo, K-E-M-O? 11 MR. : K-I-M-O. 12 MR. K-I-M-O. And then you 13 mentioned there was another El , E-L-R-A- 14 H-A-B? 15 MR. : That's Kimo's last name. 16 MR. : Oh, I apologize. 17 MR. : Kimo El 18 MR. : Okay. Shirley Skipper Scott. 19 MR. : Don't ask me how to spell it, 20 I don't know. He was an Egyptian. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Elrahab. 23 MR. : Kimo El 24 MR. : You would have saw his name 25 on the earlier stages of the project back when EFTA00112830 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 was still managing it because he was 2 the AW with at that time. 3 MR. : Okay. And you said the comm 4 techs would usually fix the issues that came up 5 in - prior to this camera system being - new 6 camera system being ordered, the comm techs 7 would fix the issues that came up with the 8 recorder and the decoder. What's a decoder? 9 MR. : A decoder? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : I have no idea. I just heard 12 it being used all the time. But see, I had a 13 personal issue. You got to realize in my 14 tenure with the Bureau, I worked at four 15 different institutions, three of them high 16 profile. All right. MCC New York, me and 17 used to - I had a problem with that 18 equipment being in the same office as my comm 19 tech. You go to any other institution, that 20 equipment is under SIS control and if they need 21 a comm tech to look at it, SIS calls for the 22 comm tech and then SIS stays there and provides 23 oversight, an escort the whole time that 24 they're working on that equipment. 25 Here at MCC New York, and I'm only EFTA00112831 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 assuming because MCC New York's the oldest 2 building I've ever worked in - I think it was 3 built in the late '60s early '70s. But I just 4 was not used to that equipment being in the 5 office of the comm tech. Everywhere I've ever 6 been that was always in SIS, but these were all 7 newer buildings. I think every other 8 institution I worked in was much newer, but I 9 just wasn't accustomed to that equipment being 10 in - it was just unreal to me. I just, you 11 know --. 12 MR. : Can you explain that to me 13 one more time? So my - our understanding is 14 there's a SIS office, then there's a video -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- monitoring room, right, 17 where they can see -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. everything on the cameras. 20 That's where the SIS - an SIS officer sits. 21 They watch everything on the video monitor. 22 And isn't the access for the camera system 23 inside a room that's inside the video 24 monitoring room? 25 MR. : Are you talking where? EFTA00112832 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : At MCC. 2 MR. : Yeah, but where, downstairs 3 in the comm tech's office, or up in someplace 4 else? 5 MR. : So - wait, wait. So I'm 6 talking about on the third floor where the SIS 7 office is. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Isn't there a video 10 monitoring room? 11 MR. : I've never - I don't know. I 12 never put eyes on it. I know that there was 13 equipment in office and Yaegly's 14 office, the two comm techs in that same office, 15 and there was equipment that was in that room 16 that was part of that system. 17 MR. : What equipment was in that 18 room? 19 MR. : I have no idea, I just know 20 it was, like, in a locked cabinet. 21 MR. : So you're saying the comm 22 techs had equipment, the live equipment for the 23 recorder, everything in their room that they 24 could access? 25 MR. : There was some kind - yeah, EFTA00112833 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there was something related to the camera 2 system that was in a cabinet in their office 3 that was related to that and that's why in that 4 office they also had a secured cabinet for shop 5 stock and supplies. And if any of that stuff 6 would have got delivered and I knew about it, 7 that's exactly where I would have put it was in 8 that cage. 9 MR. : The comm techs in their 10 office, did they have live monitoring, monitors 11 set up for the cameras? 12 MR. : What do you mean by that? 13 MR. : Like for the video. You know 14 how the SIS shop has - you can watch the live 15 videos throughout the institution? They have a 16 few of them that are up live feed. 17 MR. : That's what I was trying to 18 say. I don't know what equipment's involved 19 behind that, but they had the ability to watch 20 video from the cameras in their office. 21 MR. : And --. 22 MR. : And like I said, I've never 23 seen that at any of the other institutions I 24 was at. It was always the comm tech goes to 25 SIS, puts their hands on the equipment and EFTA00112834 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 fixes it, does whatever they've got to do. 2 MR. : When --? 3 MR. : MCC New York, I don't know if 4 it's because of the age of the institution or 5 not, but they did - I don't know what the 6 equipment is, but they -- 7 MR. : Excuse me. 8 MR. -- have the ability to see 9 footage from their office. 10 MR. : Did they have TVs set up on 11 their wall or was it just on their computer 12 screen? 13 MR. : No, the had TVs on a wall. 14 MR. : And do you --? 15 MR. : I don't know how - they had 16 yeah, they had - I don't know how they monitor 17 it, but they did have TVs on the wall, at least 18 one that I can remember. 19 MR. : And you recall being in the 20 comm techs' office and you could see the live 21 feeds on their wall? 22 MR. : No. I remember seeing a TV. 23 I never witnessed any live footage, but I know 24 that it was discussed through just variable 25 internal things where they had that capability EFTA00112835 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in there. 2 MR. : And you believe in that 3 little - the cabinet that was locked up in 4 their office they had - those were the actual 5 DVRs, the recorders, were inside the office? 6 MR. : I don't know what the 7 equipment was, I just know that they had the 8 ability to monitor cameras in their office. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. I don't know what was 11 in there, but I am assuming that if they had 12 the ability to monitor the cameras, they have 13 some sort of equipment in there, unless for 14 some reason or another somebody ran 15 MR. : Is it possible -- 16 MR. -- wires from it. 17 MR. for like the night 18 supervision, like if they had supervision 19 access, they could log in and view cameras off 20 their computer system? 21 MR. : I don't know. If they had 22 any kind of access like that, I wasn't aware of 23 it. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I always - I just had a hard EFTA00112836 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 time - I just never seen that before. They 2 shouldn't - you know, the only time a comm tech 3 is dealing with camera stuff is when there is 4 there's a repair or maintenance involved. You 5 know, they shouldn't be able to, at least in my 6 opinion and from what I've seen at other 7 institutions, be able to just hit a power 8 button and turn on a monitor and see footage, 9 whether live or recorded. 10 And then the fact that that was in their 11 office, you know, was just astonishing to me. 12 It was new to me, and the only thing that kept 13 me somewhat at bay was that it was - the comm 14 techs were the only trade in the whole entire 15 department who didn't have inmates working for 16 them because of this - the equipment they had 17 access to. Which is also a reason they can't 18 get a lot of work done so quick is because they 19 don't have inmate (Indiscernible *1:42:19). 20 They're the only people in the entire 21 Facilities Department who doesn't get any 22 inmate labor help because of the equipment and 23 stuff that they have access to. 24 MR. : Where was the office located, 25 the comm techs' office? EFTA00112837 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It was over - it was 2 downstairs in the basement and it was between 3 the Safety Office and Food Service. 4 MR. : Okay. That's all I have. 5 Agent , do you have anything else? 6 MR. : No, I don't think so. 7 MR. : Mr. I know it's been 8 - I told you it's going to be a short interview 9 and it's been almost two hours now. Thank you 10 for being patient. I know we went back and 11 forth. As mentioned, you know, a couple 12 things threw us for a loop because our idea of 13 what transpired, how things transpired, 14 complete changed at this point, but we might 15 have questions, follow-up questions for you in 16 the future, and is it okay if we reach back out 17 to you if we have more questions? 18 MR. : We'll probably do it via 19 email just so that we're not taking more of 20 your time and then you can have a moment to 21 actually review it and then just send us 22 something back, so we're not going probably 23 interview you again or anything like that. 24 MR. : Yeah, that's fine. I just - 25 like I said, the - you're saying I threw you EFTA00112838 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 guys for a loop. You guys threw me for a loop. 2 I mean, some of that stuff on that paperwork is 3 just - I mean, reading it as it is, it just - I 4 don't know, but yeah, I guess if you need me 5 again just give me a shout, send me an email, 6 or whatever the case may be, and I'll send you 7 the bill for lunch. 8 MR. : If you think about anything, 9 if you feel like you thought about something 10 that popped in, your memory got refreshed while 11 you're sitting there, you want - send me an 12 email. 13 MR. : I got you. 14 MR. : Thank you again for taking 15 the time to talk with us, and this is Special 16 Agent . The time is 12:50 p.m. 17 and we are turning off the recorder. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112839 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 101 EFTA00112840 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of JEFFREY Lisa A. Losleben, Transcriber EFTA00112841