EFTA00112842.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 MARCH 21, 2022 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00112842 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112843 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : This is Special Agent The recorder is now on. My name is 3 . I'm a Special Agent with the 4 U.S. Department of Justice Office of the 5 Inspector General New York Field Office and 6 these are my credentials. I don't know if you 7 can see it, 8 : I could see. 9 : Okay. This interview with 10 former Federal Bureau of Prisons employee 11 is being conducted as part of an 12 official U.S. Department of Justice Office of 13 the Inspector General investigation. Today's 14 date is March 21, 2022. The time is 11:08 a.m. 15 This interview is being conducted via Zoom 16 videoconferencing as, , you're 17 currently in Kentucky; is that accurate? 18 : Correct. 19 : Also present is DOJ/OIG 20 Assistant Special Agent in Charge 21 . This interview will be recorded by 22 me, Special Agent Could 23 everyone please identify themselves for the 24 record and spell your last name? To start 25 again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent EFTA00112844 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 . That's 2 : I am Assistant Special 3 Agent in Charge with the 4 DOJ/OIG, and these are my 5 credentials. 6 : Received. 7 -: can you please 8 identify yourself and spell your last name for 9 the record? 10 : Yeah, my name is 11 . I am a Junior on some 12 documents, and I am a former employee of the 13 DOJ Federal Bureau of Prisons and particular to 14 this matter MCC New York. 15 : Thank you. This is an 16 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the events 17 surrounding the death of Inmate Jeffrey Epstein 18 and you're being asked to voluntarily provide 19 answers to our questions. Will you agree to a 20 voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? 21 : Yes. 22 : Just for the record I did 23 email you two forms prior to this interview, 24 one was OIG Form 3-226-2, that is the Warnings 25 and Assurances. And the other form is OIG Form EFTA00112845 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 3-226/10A, which would be the Non-Disclosure 2 Agreement, and you signed - you read both of 3 them, signed them, but for the record I'm going 4 to read them to you and let's start off with 5 the Warnings and Assurances form. 6 The United - the form states: The United 7 States Department of Justice Office of 8 Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to 9 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 10 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 11 provide information as part of an investigation 12 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 13 General. 14 This investigation is being conducted 15 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978 16 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 17 performance failure and security failure. This 18 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 19 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 20 action will be taken against you if you choose 21 not to answer questions. Any statement you 22 wish to - you furnish may be used as evidence 23 in any future criminal proceedings or agency 24 disciplinary proceeding or both. 25 The waiver states I understand the EFTA00112846 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 warnings and assurances stated above and I am willing to make a statement and answer questions. No promises or threats have been made to and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me. , you've read the form? : Yes, I have. : You understand the form and you agree to move forward with the interview? : Yes, I do. : And you've already signed the form and you sent it back to me and myself and : (Indiscernible *00:03:43). ASAC will sign the document after the interview. The second form states: Department of Justice Office of Inspector General Non-Disclosure Agreement. I, Jeff , understand that the Department of Justice Office of Inspector General OIG will allow me to review certain documents in connection with my remote OIG on March 21, 2022, in that remote interview. A interview with the order to facilitate copy of the documents shown to me during my interview with the OIG EFTA00112847 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 labeled OIG Documents will be made part of the OIG record of that interview. As a condition of being granted access to review the OIG interview documents, I agree not to make an audio or video recording of the interview, excuse me, and I also agree that until the OIG's final report or a summary of the final report is released to the public I will not copy, photograph, discuss, or disclose any information from or about the OIG interview documents I review to anyone other than the OIG, my attorney if I have legal counsel who also executes a non-disclosure agreement with terms similar to this agreement, or other specifically authorized by the OIG after any such person executes a non-disclosure agreement with terms similar to this agreement. I further agree that even after the OIG's final report or a summary of the is released to the public I will disclose any information from or interview documents that are not final report not discuss or about the OIG contained in or that are redacted from the publicly released final report or summary of the final report. These provisions are consistent with and EFTA00112848 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 do not supersede, conflict with, or otherwise 2 alter the employee obligations, rights, or 3 liabilities created by existing statute or 4 Executive order relating to (1) classified 5 information, (2) communications to Congress, 6 (3) the reporting to an Inspector General or 7 the Office of Special Counsel of a violation of 8 any law, rule, or regulation, or mismanagement, 9 a gross waste of funds, an abuse of authority, 10 or a substantial and specific danger to public 11 health or safety, or (4) any other 12 whistleblower protection. The definitions, 13 requirements, obligations, rights, sanctions, 14 and liabilities created by controlling 15 Executive order and statutory provisions are 16 incorporate into this agreement and are 17 controlling. 18 , do you understand that non- 19 disclosure order? 20 : I do. 21 : And you already read the 22 document, you signed it, and you've dated it. 23 Thank you for that. 24 : You're welcome. 25 : Before I start the interview EFTA00112849 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 I would like to place you under oath. Mr. 2 , can you please raise your right hand? 3 Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but 4 the truth during this interview? 5 : I do. 6 : Thank you. You can put your 7 hand down. Please let me know if you do not - 8 if you don't understand any questions and I'll 9 try to repeat it or rephrase it for you. 10 : Sure. 11 : So we'll start with your 12 background. What is your current home address? 13 : My current home address is 14 and that's in 15 , Kentucky 16 : What is your date of birth? 17 -• 18 : And what's your Social 19 Security Number? 20 -: 21 : Thank you. What is your 22 current cellphone number? 23 : Area code 24 : Okay. What's your current - 25 what's your highest level of education? EFTA00112850 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 : Currently in college still 2 pursuing a bachelor's degree. 3 : Which college? 4 : Probably about a semester ago 5 I was in Champlain College all online out of 6 Burlington, Vermont, and I just recently 7 transferred Gateway Community Technical College 8 right here in my hometown of Kentucky. 9 : And what are you pursuing 10 your bachelor's degree in? 11 : (Indiscernible *00:07:52), 12 yeah. 13 : Do you have an associate's 14 degree? 15 : Credit wise, yes, but 16 formerly, no. 17 : And what did you do prior to 18 working for the BOP? 19 : Prior to the BOP I was a 20 truck driver delivering fuel, oil, and stuff 21 like that. And prior to that I was down in 22 North Carolina where I was a correctional 23 officer for the State of North Carolina, which 24 is what got me my job into the BOP, my 25 experience. EFTA00112851 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 : Okay. So from - since high 2 school - from high school you started working 3 for the North Carolina BOP or did you do other 4 jobs before that? 5 : Oh, from high school I 6 : Various jobs? 7 : Man of many - I - man of many 8 trades. I can't even count how many jobs I've 9 had, but my main career out of everything was 10 truck driving. I was pretty much a truck 11 driver. I drove all kinds of trucks and stuff 12 like that. Then when I met my current wife 13 back in '08 we had moved to North Carolina to 14 be by her family and that's when I acquired a 15 job with the North Carolina Department of 16 Corrections, and then I was down there for two 17 years and did that. 18 We moved back to New York, which is where 19 I went back to driving truck again while I was 20 in the hiring process for the Bureau of 21 Prisons. And then I ended up getting hired 22 with the Bureau of Prisons in November of 2011, 23 and I started at MDC Brooklyn. 24 : How long were you at MDC 25 Brooklyn for? EFTA00112852 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 : Right around two years and 2 then I transferred down to FCI Estill in South 3 Carolina, and I was there for about two years 4 or so, got promoted to General Foreman and 5 transferred out to FCC Hazelton, which is 6 complex out in West Virginia, Bruceton Mills, 7 and I did a little over a year there and came 8 out to MCC New York in December of 2016 is when 9 I got to New York. 10 : Was that your first --? 11 : Basically, worked - what's 12 that? 13 : Sorry. Was that your first 14 time at MCC? 15 : Yes. Yep. 16 : Okay. Go ahead. 17 : I worked at all three - the 18 worst three prisons in the Bureau of Prisons. 19 : So with the BOP, once you got 20 to MCC in 2016 is that where you spent the rest 21 of your career with BOP at MCC? 22 : It was. I was there - I got 23 there in December of 2016, I think it was right 24 before Christmas and my last day on the job was 25 Valentine's Day of 2019. EFTA00112853 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 Okay. And I was there for that 3 amount of time as a General Foreman. 4 : You --. 5 : (Indiscernible *00:10:58) 6 was that February 14, 2019? 7 : That's correct. 8 : Okay. Thank you. 9 : Yeah. 10 : Do you recall your EOD date 11 with the BOP, exact date by any chance? 12 : Yeah, November 6, 2011. 13 : Okay. And when did you 14 graduate from BOP training? 15 : I would have to look that up. 16 : It's okay. If you don't 17 remember it, don't worry about that. We jus- - 18 it's generic question we ask. 19 : I was there for Super Bowl, 20 so if I got hired in November and I was in 21 Glynco for Super Bowl, I would say it had to 22 have been February of `20. No, I'm sorry, '12, 23 2012, yeah. 24 : So when you started with the 25 MCC you said you were a general foreman and EFTA00112854 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that was your position up until when you 2 separated from the MCC in February 14, 2019? 3 : Correct. 4 : Okay. And what is your - 5 after you left MCC, what is your current title 6 and what agency do you work for? 7 : I currently work for the 8 General Services Administration Public Building 9 Services, and I am a Building Manager. 10 : Okay. While you were at the 11 MCC as a general foreman, was that your title 12 in 2018 and 2019? 13 : General foreman was the 14 internal kind of phrase. I think the position 15 title officially OPM was Maintenance Mechanic 16 Supervisor. 17 : Hold on, let me write that. 18 : And I was WS-4749, Grade 14, 19 Step Five. 20 : So official title is 21 Maintenance Mechanic Supervisor? 22 : Correct. 23 : And who did you report to? 24 : The facility manager. 25 : Who was the facility manager EFTA00112855 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 at that point? 2 • 3 : And when did Mr. - r.vs 4 understanding is Mr. retired from MCC. 5 When did he - according to your recollection, 6 when did he retire from the MCC? 7 : I would probably have to say 8 - I don't know the exact dates because his exit 9 was kind of unique. He didn't actually 10 initially retire; he went out on some kind of 11 other type of leave and eventually it's to my 12 understanding he ended up retiring. But when 13 he had went out all communication stopped with 14 everybody with him. Nobody - he never kept in 15 touch with anybody. He never reached out. Bu - 16 17 : When was that? 18 : I really don't know what - 19 hey, I don't know his exact date, but I would 20 probably want to say that I was there for 21 almost maybe just under or right around or 22 another year after he had left. I don't think 23 it was that much because there was several 24 other people locally that had filled in 25 including me for his position. EFTA00112856 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 : So you recall that other 2 people filled in his position while he was gone 3 while you were still there? 4 : Correct. 5 : Okay. So do you believe he 6 left in 2019 or 2018? 7 : I really honestly couldn't 8 tell you. I do remember --. 9 : I think what is 10 trying to ask is not his official retirement 11 date but around when did he leave the MCC and 12 communication with him stopped. I think you 13 said -- 14 : Yes. 15 : -- it was approximately a 16 year before you left? 17 : Yeah. The only thing I can 18 tell you - I don't really know the dates. The 19 only thing I know from what I recall is Mr. 20 had just went to Denver, Colorado, for 21 some kind of facilities manager conference 22 training and he had never returned back to the 23 institution once he went to that training or 24 conference or whatever it was. It had 25 something to do with facility managers all EFTA00112857 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 going out there. And all I know is that when 2 he went out there, he went there for a week or 3 so, and he never returned to the institution 4 after that. 5 : Okay. 6 : It was (Indiscernible 7 *00:15:24) --. 8 : Do you know why he left, 9 what happened? 10 : I have no idea. I have no 11 idea. I couldn't tell you. I mean, there was 12 a lot of rumors, but I just know that when he 13 went to that training, it was like he went home 14 after that. He never came back to the 15 institution or that conference, whatever. 16 : Now, do you know if it 17 was personal reasons, medical, or 18 administrative? 19 : I have no idea why he didn't 20 come back although he did make medical issues 21 known to us on the job, that he had some 22 medical issues. 23 : Okay. And you said a few 24 people filled in the position. So his title 25 you said was Facility Manager, right? And EFTA00112858 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what, was he your direct supervisor? 2 : He was, yep. 3 : Okay. And who does the 4 facility manager report to? 5 : The Associate Warden of 6 Operations. 7 : And who was Associate Warden 8 of Operations in end of 2018 if you recall? 9 : So we had three in the time 10 that I was there, and I believe worked 11 under all three of them. So there was 12 and then the last 13 one that was there prior to me leaving was 14 or . They called him 15 but I believe his real name was 16 -: , okay. 17 : All three of them had 18 performed - they were the AWO they call it, AW 19 of Operations, which oversaw the Facilities 20 Department, and that's who the facility manager 21 directly reported to. 22 : Okay. And when Mr. 23 left the MCC and that's not when he retired 24 (Indiscernible *00:17:19) this is when he 25 stepped away for leave purposes, do you recall EFTA00112859 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 who took over for him initially? 2 : Yeah. So the warden at the 3 time which I can't remember which one it was 4 because there was so much staff that came and 5 went throughout this whole thing, that one time 6 it was the executive assistant who was told to 7 oversee the department, and then at another 8 time the AW oversaw the department. 9 : When you say "executive 10 assistant" -- 11 : (Indiscernible *00:17:56). 12 : -- who was that? 13 -: (Phonetic Sp. 14 *00:17:59). 15 : So he oversaw it for a little 16 bit? 17 : He did, yes. 18 : Okay. And then who was the 19 next person? 20 -: 21 . He was told to oversee it. And then 22 there was a little bit of a stint where, you 23 know, I could just informally absorbed a lot of 24 his job duties just to get the department 25 functioning, but I was never actually promoted EFTA00112860 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 or paid or anything like that that actually - I 2 was never formally designated as acting or 3 anything like that, I just had to do some of 4 the facility manager functions in order to have 5 the department operational. 6 So I would get my go-ahead for - to do 7 those functions. They would - they oversaw it 8 or approved by either or 9 at the time. 10 : So they gave you the go-ahead 11 and you went ahead and completed the functions. 12 Do you recall when exactly this time period was 13 when you acted? 14 : I wasn't really designate - 15 I wasn't really acting, I was just - if I had 16 to do - if I had to get something done that a 17 facility manager would normally have to do, I 18 would just go to the - whatever time period it 19 was, if was over the department or if 20 was over the department, I would 21 have to go to them and say, "Hey, listen, can I 22 go ahead and do this? Can you give me the 23 approval, sign off on it?" and then I would 24 actually do the act. 25 : Okay. Bear with me a second. EFTA00112861 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 Let's see. Maybe this might help -- I have a 2 SigNet contract here, right? And it's multiple 3 questions will be on the SigNet contract -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- and bear with me. I'm 6 going to see if I can share my screen here. 7 This document that I'm showing you, can you see 8 it? 9 : No. 10 : Why is this - how about now? 11 : I got something coming up. 12 Yep, I could see it. 13 : Okay. So this document that 14 I'm showing you is - it says, "MCC New York." 15 It says, "Solicitation Contract Order for 16 Commercial Items Offered to Complete Blocks 12, 17 17, 23, 24, and 30." 18 : Yep. 19 : And it says, "Requisition 20 Number 1064-18." 21 : Yep. 22 : This is just for the record. 23 I'm just reading it, just the top part, so we 24 know which document this is. The Contract 25 Number states GS-07F as in Frank-0322T, and the EFTA00112862 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 Award Effective Date is 09/21/2018. Do you 2 recall -- 3 : Okay. 4 : -- this document at all? 5 : I don't see that document, 6 no. 7 : See over here. 8 : But it's not under the 9 facility manager one. I don't recall ever 10 putting my eyes on the document. 11 : This is part - Section 15. 12 You see over here? 13 : Correct. 14 : And it's - it's says 15 "Delivered to Federal Bureau of Prisons MCC New 16 York" and lists you as a point of contact. 17 : Correct. 18 : Now, if we scroll down a bit. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : We're going to scroll down to 21 Page 6 on this document. 22 : Correct. 23 : It lists you as the 24 facilities manager. Does this jog your memory 25 at all? EFTA00112863 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 : I do. I was always - when 2 had left, I was pretty much assumed the 3 facilities manager. Like I said, I was never 4 formally promoted or even temporarily entered 5 that position, nor was I ever designated as 6 acting. So the fact that that says facility 7 manager, I don't know why or who put that there 8 because I was always a general foreman. I was 9 never, ever in the role of a facility or with 10 (Indiscernible *00:22:26) title, whether 11 temporary or permanent, was never a facility 12 manager. 13 : Okay. 14 -: 15 -: 16 : I was never even formally 17 designated as acting, they just pretty much 18 said, "There's no facility manager, Jeff is 19 next in the chain of command," so they just 20 referred to me as it. That's what I'm assuming 21 whoever typed this up. 22 : I know it's been about three, 23 four years. I know it's kind of tough 24 remembering some of this stuff, that's why we 25 trying to pull - we try to pull documents where EFTA00112864 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 we believe it could help you. 2 : Right. 3 : I know we have an email. I 4 don't know if this will help a little bit too. 5 This email right here, it says "Regarding 6 forward cameras from to - 7 (Phonetic Sp. *00:23:06)." Who is that? 8 : He was, I believe, the 9 supervisor of the SIS Department at the time. 10 : And was --. 11 : He was like the lead SIS 12 investigator. 13 : Okay. And then we have 14 , who is that? 15 : He was a communications 16 technician that I supervised in the Facilities 17 Department. 18 : And we have . Was 19 that the executive assistant that you mentioned 20 before? 21 : Oh, correct, yep. 22 : And this is dated January 4, 23 2019. 24 : Correct, yep. 25 : And we'll go through the EFTA00112865 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 email, but it says on the bottom, it says Jeff 2 . Is that - that's your signature, CESCO 3 General Foreman-Acting Facility Manager? 4 : Correct. 5 : So I know this is in January 6 4th I know you mentioned you were always under 7 the title of General Foreman, but you were also 8 not officially acting, but you were still doing 9 the job. Does that help at all jog your 10 memory? 11 : Right. So an email went out 12 by the AW telling all the department heads that 13 when had left that I would be running 14 the Facilities Department until a replacement 15 was found, hence why I would assume the acting 16 part went into my signature line. 17 : Got it. And do you know when 18 this email went out? 19 : That looks like a month 20 before I left according to the date. 21 : No, no, I meant - you said 22 there was an email that went out saying - from 23 the AW saying that you would be acting --. 24 : Oh. Oh, yeah, I don't - I 25 couldn't - it'd have to have been - it was EFTA00112866 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 shortly after - it might have even been from 2 the warden if I'm not mistaken, which was 3 , because I remember whatever happened 4 with down in Colorado and why he didn't 5 come back I remember that the Warden 6 was very, very upset with whatever was going 7 on, and I just remember somebody, I can't 8 recall exactly who - came down to the 9 office, to my office, and spoke to me 10 personally and told me that he would like me to 11 just hold things down until they figure out 12 things, what was going to happen with 13 and see what was going to happen. 14 And then I remember an email going out 15 telling all department heads that I would be - 16 to see me for any facilities-related issues -- 17 : Okay. 18 : -- because was no 19 longer there. 20 : Okay. So according to this 21 you were acting facility manager, but you were 22 general foreman, but you were acting at this 23 point. And so, on record is it possible from 24 the time that when Warden assigned you the 25 title to when you left were you the acting EFTA00112867 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 facilities manager - facility manager? 2 : So I don't - I would - 3 definitely not up until the time I left because 4 there was some butting of heads between me and 5 and at times where they 6 overrode a lot of decisions that I made that 7 I'm normally supposed to make underneath my 8 title. So -- 9 : Can you give us an example? 10 : -- at the very, very end I 11 believe at the time was running the 12 department for the most part at the time that I 13 left. So it wasn't the whole entire time, it 14 was very sporadic. It was just constant change 15 of roles and responsibilities and - but I was 16 definitely at one point - like I said, it was 17 like a - it was just like an informal internal, 18 "Hey, this is Jeff. He's going to be the 19 facility manager until we figure out what's 20 going on," and they fill the position, which 21 they had not since I walked out the door. 22 : So basically - my 23 understanding from what you're saying is on --. 24 : But I guess what you would 25 say is during this time period I would be the EFTA00112868 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 guy who would have - if anybody had any 2 questions or concerns involving this contract, 3 they would had to have I guess come to me, 4 yeah. 5 : Okay. Now, do you remember - 6 I know you mentioned that the (Indiscernible 7 *00:27:37). Tell me, do you recall if there 8 was an update or upgrade of the camera system 9 going on in - at the MCC in 2018 or `19? 10 : Prior to this right here? 11 : Well, (Indiscernible 12 *00:27:53) this document for a second. Give me 13 - hold on, let me see. We'll come back to that 14 document. Do you recall in general was there 15 an upgrade happening at the MCC for the camera 16 system? 17 : There was an upgrade that 18 started with 19 : Okay. 20 : There was - from what I 21 understand there was camera issues well - going 22 way back well before I even got there, long 23 before even got there. They had 24 recorder and decoder issues. There was a whole 25 slew of things and I would assume - I would EFTA00112869 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 imagine it was probably due to the age of the institution and there was very little infrastructure upgrades and updating and stuff like that. But I remember prior to, you know, me inheriting what started, there was all kind of issues with the cameras from what I heard from internal communications and stuff like that. So started this program, this project, at the request of higherups. I don't really know the backdrop on that, that was in between them. And then I really did not get involved with it at all until he never came back to work. He dropped off and then I just picked up after him. I wanted to ask. differentiate the I kind of missed a key point So as a - can you job duties between a facility manager and the general foreman? : So basically, the facility manager they keep track of the budget. They authorize expenditures. They obviously supervise me, and then I in turn supervise the subordinate staff, the wage grade trade guys. But basically, he handled the approval of EFTA00112870 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 projects, you know, submitted approvals for 2 projects. He did, like, the five- and 10-year 3 plans for the facility, authorized all the 4 expenditures. He went ahead and sat in on all 5 the department head meetings to give executive 6 staff briefings on what's going on in the 7 department, progress reports, stuff like that. 8 Listen to any concerns that they would have and 9 then he brings it back to us. 10 And in my job, my main job by title is 11 literally - I was in charge of supervising, 12 monitoring, and then the wage grade guys that 13 were below me because I was also wage grade. 14 The facility manager is a GS employee. I was a 15 WS employee just like the rest of the trade 16 guys. And my job was basically to supervise 17 them guys, assign them work, make sure they 18 were coming and going in the facility with the 19 inmates, make sure that they were handling 20 their tools and all that other stuff. I did 21 their performance evaluations and all that 22 other stuff. And the facility manager pretty 23 much did all that on me. 24 So he was my supervisor. He would 25 evaluate me, you know, keep track of my time EFTA00112871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 and all that other stuff. And that's pretty 2 much it. 3 : Who were some of the 4 employees that reported to you? You said the 5 wage employees. Who were the employees that 6 reported to you? 7 : In the Facility Department it 8 was the trade specific wage guys, so you had 9 the communications technicians, engineering 10 technicians, carpenters, plumbers, 11 electricians, HVAC guys. And then each one of 12 those tradesmen have a (Indiscernible 13 *00:31:39) of inmates that work for them, so I 14 would go ahead - work orders would come in from 15 all departments, you know, requests, "Hey, can 16 you change a light bulb? Can you unclog the 17 toilet here?" I would give that work order to 18 the appropriate trade guy and then he would 19 take his group of inmates and go out into the 20 institution and fix it and close out the work 21 order, report back to me. 22 : Okay. Agent , any 23 questions on that before I move forward with 24 the contracts? 25 : Yes, I'm just writing EFTA00112872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 down some follow-up questions. So just - can 2 you just clarify again, when were you actually 3 the acting facilities manager? 4 : It was whenever they wanted 5 me to be basically. It was sporadic and on and 6 off, so --. 7 : Yeah. I got it. You 8 said, like, when or departed 9 they put out an email and then we saw an email 10 that was from January of 2019 that said that 11 you were acting facilities manager but then you 12 said you weren't. 13 : Well, it was in my signature 14 line the acting facility manager, so I think it 15 was just never - I think I rolled with that 16 since left. I think that acting part 17 just stayed in the signature line. But there 18 was --. 19 : After they made the 20 notification that you were the acting facility 21 manager, did they ever tell you that you were 22 not the acting facility manager? 23 : Yeah, that's why I was saying 24 it was - I bumped heads with executive staff 25 sometimes because I thought a lot of the EFTA00112873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 decisions that they were making weren't in the 2 best interest of the facility at the time. And 3 when I say that I mean, like, infrastructure 4 stuff, you know. And I kind of like - they 5 didn't like the way I prioritized certain 6 things within the department. 7 So there was some conflicts every now and 8 again and that's why the warden would go ahead 9 and say, "Okay. Hey, III, you know what, 10 you're overseeing the Facilities Department 11 now. Have Jeff report to you." And then they 12 also did the same thing with at one 13 point where he came in, which was right around 14 the thing and where he was told that he 15 was going to go ahead and - so they were like 16 dual role. They were pretty much - your 17 executive assistant and the facility manager 18 and then your AWO and the facility manager. 19 : So were you still the 20 acting facility manager and they were just 21 overseeing what you were doing to make sure 22 that in your acting capacity you're doing it 23 right? Or they --. 24 : That's up to interpretation. 25 I didn't have any decision-making power. It EFTA00112874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 had to all go through them -- 2 : But --. 3 -- while (Indiscernible 4 *00:34:33). 5 : But at least in your 6 signature line you maintained the acting 7 facility manager? 8 : I guess. I guess I just 9 never took it out, yeah. But 10 : But was there ever 11 anything official that went out, like there was 12 an official email saying you're the acting 13 facility manager. Was there ever anything that 14 said you're no longer the acting facility 15 manager or - you know what I'm saying, like --? 16 : Yeah, no, not to my knowledge 17 there was - because there was talks because 18 they were dragging on the hiring of a 19 replacement facility manager because 20 case, whatever he had going on on his personal 21 side with the Bureau they couldn't fill the job 22 until they finalized what was happening with 23 him. They needed like, I guess, an end date or 24 something like that. They needed to know when 25 was falling off the books in order for EFTA00112875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 them to re-post the job. 2 So there was never - it went on for so 3 long. Like I said, it was from the point that 4 I had walked out the door there in February of 5 '19 there was still no facility manager there. 6 And I also know at the time that I walked out I 7 may have not took the word "acting" out of my 8 signature line, but I know I wasn't acting at 9 that time that I had left per se. 10 And I don't recall ever an official email 11 going out saying where I was acting. I 12 remember an email going out saying to all 13 department heads that was no longer 14 around and if anybody needed anything from the 15 facilities department to see me. 16 : Now, were you --. 17 : (Indiscernible *00:36:07). 18 : Through the whole time 19 were you a part of these meetings that you said 20 that the facility manager would be a part of? 21 : Some of them, yes, I was. 22 Yep. 23 : So until the time you 24 left you still were sitting in the meeting the 25 facility manager would sit in then? EFTA00112876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 : I was even in those meetings 2 when the facility manager was there. We all 3 sat in together. 4 : Now, would you have been 5 sitting in those meetings if you were just the 6 general foreman? 7 : At his request if he wanted 8 me to or even if one of the executive staff 9 wanted me there. It all depends on what they 10 would have discussed at that time. 11 : Did you (Indiscernible 12 *00:36:44) --? 13 : He could choose. So the -- 14 : (Indiscernible 15 *00:36:45). 16 : -- facility manager could 17 choose to have me there, or he could say, "I 18 got this. Don't worry about, you don't got to 19 come." 20 : So when you were - at 21 least, you know, from the time left 22 until February, were you automatically assumed 23 to be in those meetings or you'd have to be 24 invited to each individual one? 25 : It's kind of like both. I EFTA00112877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 expected myself to be there because somebody 2 had to represent the department in there, but 3 they also put out a roll call sheet prior to 4 those meetings and if I saw my name on it, I 5 went. 6 : And was your name 7 (Indiscernible *00:37:21)? 8 : Not always, no. 9 : Okay. No, I'm just 10 trying to get behind were you acting and then 11 you just had someone overseeing you or - yeah, 12 I'm just trying to figure out how because we're 13 14 : I always had somebody 15 overseeing me, always. 16 : Right. 17 : Because even the facility 18 manager had somebody overseeing him, so 19 (Indiscernible *00:37:39). 20 : But if you were going to 21 write your resume would you say that you were 22 acting a facility manager for that time? 23 : No, because it wasn't 24 official. 25 : (Indiscernible EFTA00112878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 *00:37:49). 2 : Well, I --. 3 : I'd say that was 4 official. 5 : I don't know what an official 6 is really. 7 : Yeah. 8 : I couldn't be honest with 9 you. 10 : No, if you're acting, if 11 they sent out an email, I would say that's 12 pretty official saying that you're the acting 13 facility manager and you could put it in your 14 signature line. I mean, there's not like --. 15 : I would normally and I 16 thought so, but I also found out also that if 17 you're, like, you know, not temporarily 18 promoted into it and stuff like that and you're 19 not getting paid to do the job - but like I 20 said, I do remember emails going out, I just 21 cannot recall if the word "acting" was put into 22 it or not and if the word "acting" was in it, 23 but I don't know if I ever recall that or not. 24 I mean, there was several times where it 25 would go out because called in sick or EFTA00112879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 he went on vacation. I just don't recall if it 2 was ever done when he went off permanently. I 3 don't know if that was ever --. 4 : Would it be a fair 5 statement for us to say that you were acting 6 facility manager with oversight? Would that be 7 a fair --? 8 : I --. 9 : Or just tell --. 10 : I guess so. 11 : We just have to document 12 it in our reports of, like, you know, what this 13 person's role was from this time to this time. 14 So in order for us to be clear, I want to make 15 sure that we're not writing something that's 16 inaccurate. It's nothing -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- to do with, like, 19 you're, you know - you know, this is just for 20 our report writing purposes we can say, you 21 know, " went out, you were the acting 22 facility manager from this date until, you 23 know, February 2019, and then, you know, you 24 clarify that you had oversight from the 25 executive staff in your position and were EFTA00112880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 limited with your facility manager decision 2 making ability." Would that be fair? 3 : Right, because if regardless 4 of whether I was acting or not and whether I 5 had oversight or not, the mere fact that 6 was not there, I still had to do a lot 7 of his duties to keep the department 8 functioning whether somebody deemed me 9 officially acting or not. I was still doing 10 his functions because he was not there. 11 : Okay. 12 : Under oversight from 13 executive staff. 14 : Yeah, that sounds like 15 acting to me, so I just want to make sure that 16 we are clear there. Like you're just saying 17 you're not acting because you weren't official 18 - you know, you weren't temporarily promoted, 19 but you were performing those duties with 20 oversight. 21 : They would - like I said, he 22 would call in sick and not come into work for a 23 couple days or go on vacation, so he would put 24 out an email to everybody in the institution 25 saying, " is acting facility manager EFTA00112881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 for the time that I'm out." 2 : And would you --? 3 : And himself, the 4 facility manager. 5 : Oh, prior to 6 going out in 2018? 7 : He would - if he wanted to 8 take a week off and go somewhere, he would put 9 out an email letting the institution and the 10 executive staff know that " will be 11 acting in my capacity while I'm out." Happened 12 all the time. Same thing like me, I would do 13 the same thing and I would designate one of my 14 subordinates as acting for me if I went out. 15 But I do believe that at some point some 16 kind of email went out by one of the executive 17 staff after left that everybody should 18 come and see me for all facility-related issues 19 till further notice. And like I said, 20 came to my office right after we had found out 21 that wasn't coming back shortly after 22 that Denver trip and he told me that I would 23 have to run the department until they figure 24 out what was going on with him, which was top 25 secret and nobody knew anything. They didn't EFTA00112882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 know nothing, couldn't tell you. 2 : All right. Go ahead, 3 4 : Just to clarify. After you 5 had that meeting with , is that when he 6 sent out that email? 7 : I don't think - I don't know 8 if he was the one that sent it out, I can't 9 recall. I just know some kind of email went 10 out for the department heads and it was also 11 brought up in one of the meetings reminding 12 people that was no longer there and 13 that if they had any facility-related issues I 14 was the one - I was the POC. 15 : Okay. Now, is it okay - I'm 16 going to move forward in the topic. Now, 17 during that time period do you recall during 18 your tenure after left and before 19 left, was there a camera project that 20 was started at the MCC? 21 : It was there. It was already 22 started. I believe when I had gotten there, 23 they were still doing market research and stuff 24 like that. 25 : Is it in 2016? EFTA00112883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : What's that? : You said when you started, 3 you're talking about 2016? 4 : There was talks of - there 5 was already camera issues I guess had going on 6 when I had gotten there. 7 : Okay. 8 : And I believe - well, it was 9 December of 2016, so nothing happened in '16. 10 I think, you know, because I was - I got there, 11 like, the week of Christmas. So going into 12 '17, I know that there was talks about - it 13 wasn't so much on the cameras, it was on the 14 recorders. There was always constant internal 15 chatter between the comm techs and SIS and 16 everything else on how - I guess they had an 17 older system that was analog and everybody else 18 had digital, but their main gripe was, I guess 19 - and I'm not too familiar with the security 20 side of stuff, I'll be honest with you, I 21 always refer to them when I needed a question 22 answered, but from what I gather, what I 23 understand, they weren't able to go back in 24 time on the recorders as far as they 25 experienced, I guess, with other institutions. EFTA00112884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 So there was no secret that there was 2 cameras that were not working throughout the 3 facility. Like I said, that was a dead horse 4 from what I understand. They were dealing with 5 broken cameras long before I had even gotten 6 back there. And this recorder issue for 7 whatever reason evolved and turned into camera 8 issues, you know, and exposed the entire 9 infrastructure eventually. 10 : So you mentioned there's two 11 issues. There is one the - there were actual 12 cameras that weren't recording, I mean, cameras 13 that weren't working. 14 : Right. 15 : That means there was no live 16 feed, there's nothing recording either because 17 the cameras itself were broken? 18 : Right. So the - from what 19 understand you had a combination of two 20 problems there. You had some cameras that 21 legitimately were not working. They just 22 there was no communication. There was no 23 nothing. And then you had other cameras which 24 were in certain cells up in the Special Housing 25 Unit where whether they were working or not, it EFTA00112885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 was to my understanding that there was a lot of 2 damage being done to them by the inmates that 3 were in those cells. So they were either 4 scratching the lenses on the cameras, covering 5 up with wet toilet paper or whatever the case 6 may be. 7 I, myself, I couldn't even tell you if 8 those cameras were ever working. I only knew 9 of one camera in the Special Housing Unit that 10 worked for the cells for the ranges and that 11 was, like, one suicide cell that they had there 12 on J-Range. But I don't - it started out with 13 me, the recorders were the issue, and then they 14 were like, "Oh, okay, we're going to go ahead 15 and spend this money and fix these recorders 16 and get these - this conversion from analog to 17 digital, let's suck in the cameras too that 18 don't work." 19 But I can tell you that I know that SIS 20 was constantly going to the comm techs all the 21 time because they were doing investigations and 22 had no camera footage. It almost seemed like 23 (Indiscernible *00:45:47). And obviously this 24 was long before the Jeffrey Epstein thing 25 because, you know, I had even left the EFTA00112886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 institution before Jeffrey Epstein got there. 2 This was just for, like, smaller internal 3 investigations that they were doing where they 4 were constantly going to Daniels for the camera 5 footage issues. 6 And the determination was made by 7 and the higherups, I guess, and they said, 8 well, if we're going to go ahead and change 9 this recorder why don't we just go ahead and 10 try to upgrade everything, get some new cameras 11 inside and out. And they even wanted to add 12 cameras to the existing complement because they 13 had a lot of blind spots and then obviously the 14 infrastructure itself, like the wiring and the 15 conduit was all part of that deal. 16 : In your knowledge in 2018 and 17 in `19, how many cameras were there inside the 18 MCC? 19 : I couldn't tell you honestly. 20 There was a lot, but there was also a lot that 21 should have been there. But I do remember 22 had a map of where every single - pre- 23 existing camera was in the institution and I 24 believe the comm techs also had an inventory 25 tracking sheet, because each one of those EFTA00112887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 cameras had an asset number assigned to it 2 : Okay. 3 : -- that was in the MTMMS 4 Maintenance Management System. 5 : What was that --? 6 : So - it's on the Maintenance 7 Management System, the --. 8 MTMS? 9 : TMS, yep, Total Maintenance 10 System. So, you know, all that equipment was 11 in there, so you should be able to pull the 12 report out of there. That would list all those 13 cameras including any asset numbers assigned to 14 the associated components that's maintainable. 15 If it's something that's maintainable and could 16 be repaired and it's not like a throwaway. We 17 call it run-to-die. If it's maintainable, 18 reparable, it's worth putting money into it, 19 it's in that system. 20 : Okay. So in the SHU, do you 21 know how many cameras were in the SHU offhand? 22 : No, because it was very 23 inconsistent because it was to my understanding 24 certain cameras were added throughout the years 25 for certain specific reasons. They would EFTA00112888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 designate certain cells for certain purposes 2 and then they would cancel that purpose and 3 convert it back to a regular cell. I mean, it 4 was just the constant changing of the 5 operations that changed the cameras, and that 6 was just obvious without even knowing the 7 backdrop because you could tell just by the 8 cameras there were so many different makes and 9 models. They weren't all consistent. They 10 weren't all consistent. They weren't the same 11 for the most part depending on what area you 12 were in. 13 : And so, this is -- 14 : So SHU 15 : -- in the SHU you're talking 16 about? You're not talking about 10-South? 17 We're talking about between G, I, J, K, L, M, T 18 that's inside the SHU? 19 : Yes, those for the SHU, as 20 far as I know those were all there pre-existing 21 before me. There was never no camerawork done 22 up there, whether they were working or not. 23 : But you just mentioned they 24 were adding cameras and taking them out. 25 : Yeah, but I was talking EFTA00112889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 institution wide -- 2 : Okay. 3 not just - yeah, not just 4 SHU, you know. It was institution wide. 5 : So let's get back on track. 6 We talked about the fact that started a 7 project and the project - what did that project 8 for the cameras entail? 9 : So I really - for the project 10 the way it was designed, the way we wanted it 11 done was had put this package together. 12 We were going to get - he had the map of the 13 cameras I was telling you about. So we were 14 going to upgrade the existing cameras, add new 15 cameras because took this map, brought 16 it to the executive staff and to SIS and they 17 said, "Hey, listen, this is what we have now. 18 We're going to go ahead and try to get this 19 project. Where do you need cameras?" 20 So they did a tour around the institution 21 and they went ahead and they asked to have 22 other cameras placed, like on certain ranges 23 that didn't have any coverages. There was, 24 like, a little mini TV rec room in the housing 25 units that had no camera coverage in them. EFTA00112890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 There was a lot of blind spots in certain areas 2 throughout the institution. So they went ahead 3 and they added what they wanted to add. 4 But then also because the recorder was 5 getting upgraded, the infrastructure that was 6 in place because it was analog, obviously it 7 was going to go to digital, they had to run new 8 wiring, new conduit. All that had to be done. 9 So under that contract, last I remember 10 walking out that door, what happened was it 11 came in over a million dollars originally and 12 somebody came back and said, "Listen, we need 13 to get this to 800,000 or lower." Somebody 14 threw out a number there, I don't remember who 15 it was. It came through and somebody 16 up top said that because of some kind of 17 procurement avenue or regulation or something, 18 they would've had to go through a whole 19 different procurement avenue because of that 20 amount. They said to make it easier and to try 21 and increase our chances of getting this money 22 and getting it done, we had to bring the number 23 down to like 800,000 or something. I don't 24 remember the exact number. 25 So then the decision was made because EFTA00112891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 originally we did this contract, whoever we 2 were purchasing the cameras from, they were 3 also supposed to install those cameras. We 4 paid for the labor for them to do the entire 5 project initially. My guys weren't going to 6 touch anything, they were just going to provide 7 support. So the initial $1 million number was 8 to have the contract SigNet, I guess it was in 9 that contract, whoever we were getting those 10 cameras from, they were going to go ahead and 11 do the install and we would supervise them, 12 escort them, and give support when they came. 13 So when they came back and told us that 14 that number needed to get down below 800 or 15 whatever, that's when the decision was made to 16 where they said, "Okay. We can do this. We 17 can just have the contractor install the 18 cameras and we can use the trade guys, the 19 electrician and the comm techs to run the cable 20 and the wiring to save on the labor, to bring 21 the labor costs down to try and get into that 22 number." 23 And that was the last - that's how I left 24 off. That's how the project was supposed to be 25 done, because when I was there, my last year EFTA00112892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that I was there for the better - for the 2 second half of '19, well, '18 into '19, the 3 electrician and the comm techs had already 4 started running conduit in the housing units 5 and stuff like that. They had already begun to 6 hang conduit. But I could tell you from the 7 right up till I walked out that door there were 8 never no cameras or even wiring for that matter 9 in that institution. They were never there. 10 : So we'll come to that. So 11 that's some of the questions I have. I'm going 12 to share -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- back my screen. Do you 15 recall if this was the contract that was 16 awarded? It looks like it states on Line 17A. 17 It's the same document I showed before. 18 : Yeah. 19 : This says SigNet Technologies 20 and it's to Federal Bureau of Prisons. And if 21 you scroll down to page - looks like it's Page 22 4, it lists the schedule of supplies. 23 : Yep. 24 : What was - were these the 25 items the contract listed and does the contract EFTA00112893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 through SigNet all the purchase of all the 2 items for the upgrades inside MTC? 3 can you scroll 4 back up there because I want to make sure it's 5 the right institution on this? 6 : So this one - yeah, don't 7 look at - this - what you see FCI Fort Dix 8 (Indiscernible *00:54:15). I must clarify. 9 FCI Fort Dix handles all the payments on the 10 East Coast. 11 : Oh, okay. 12 : Yeah. 13 : Sorry about that. 14 : They do all - they did all 15 the contracting for MCC New York and MDC 16 Brooklyn because they didn't have in-house 17 contractors at the facility institutions. 18 : So --. 19 : And I see below it says, 20 "Delivery Date September 28, 2018, MCC New York 21 Camera System." 22 : Yeah. So that's 23 : Okay. 24 : I'm going to come back to 25 that part too. So over here, this is all the EFTA00112894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 these are all the technology, well, the pieces. 2 Let's go through it, just - we'll go through it 3 quickly. It says for this license, the single 4 license for Nice Vision Enterprise package 5 audio channel, it looks like Vision Smart Hub 6 Recorder. This might be the recording system 7 that you're talking about, 8 : I would - I guess so. I'm 9 going to guess. I'm not a comm tech. For now, 10 I'll say yes. 11 : No problem. And there's a 12 recorder (Indiscernible *00:55:04) licenses and 13 then it looks like a package major version, 14 then we got the decoders. We got the AMS and 15 Nice Vision supporting 16 cameras, the IP 16 cameras. Now, you mentioned that this - if 17 this is the contract that was awarded, was the 18 plan to replace every camera inside the MCC or 19 replace only certain cameras? 20 : I was under the impression it 21 was every camera we purchased for them, so if 22 you're looking at that Line Number 9 where it 23 says SigNet labor for a quarter of a million 24 dollars -- 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00112895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 : -- they better have installed 2 every damn camera because that was my 3 intention. That's what I was - thought I was 4 paying for was -- 5 : So they're replacing -- 6 : -- you know, for them to --. 7 : -- every camera - current 8 camera in the MCC plus adding additional 9 cameras? 10 : Correct, yep. 11 : And the total here says 12 698,108, and what you mentioned a little while 13 before was initially the contract was over a 14 million dollars and your understanding was this 15 part right here, this SigNet labor was much 16 higher and the idea, the proposal that came 17 around was to get rid of the SigNet labor in 18 terms of the conduit, wiring, the wiring, to be 19 done by in-house comm techs and electricians so 20 that this labor -- 21 : Right. 22 cost of whatever the total 23 was would come down and would be below the 24 $800,000 mark in total? 25 : That was my - I don't know EFTA00112896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 what the numbers exactly were but that was my 2 understanding was that in order to drop that 3 quote down, we had to cut back on - they just 4 said, you know, "Let's go ahead and cut back on 5 the labor on the wiring side," which is why the 6 guys started running conduit in-house on their 7 own because it was to my understanding that's 8 what got cut from the contract. 9 : Okay. And you wouldn't 10 happen to recall offhand what the initial 11 SigNet labor proposal was, right? 12 : I just remember the original 13 first estimate that went out came back when 14 was still here was like over a million 15 dollars. 16 : Okay, the total. Okay. 17 : The total, yeah, uh-huh. 18 : And based on this, it looks 19 like Line 8 it shows IP cameras. It looks like 20 the quantity is 135. Then it says the Corner 21 VEN cam. That looks like there's 75 pieces. 22 So you're looking at over 200 cameras in total 23 that was ordered. 24 : Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. 25 : One thing I don't see in here EFTA00112897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 - well, maybe you can explain it since I don't 2 see. Do you see the order for the conduits in 3 here, the wiring? 4 : No. 5 : But if that was part of the - 6 7 : (Indiscernible *00:58:01). 8 : Who was supposed to provide 9 that? 10 : You have - so I believe - we 11 had a lot of conduit left over at Building 4. 12 It was a warehouse that we had in Brooklyn that 13 belongs to MCC New York. It's like their food 14 service warehouse and facilities had a storage 15 and I guess they had a whole bunch of conduit 16 there from a surplus from another project, so 17 they started bringing that stuff over to the 18 institution and using that. The wiring I 19 believe was purchased separately through - I 20 don't remember the company's name. The comm 21 tech would know because he did the order, but 22 we purchased that through - what is the website 23 where you buy stuff from GSA? 24 : I'm not sure. I'm not 25 familiar with the purchasing department. But EFTA00112898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 it was purchased through GSA according to your 2 memory? 3 : Well, it's a website GSA has. 4 : GSA Advantage or 5 something? 6 : That's it. Yeah, so all 7 these companies sell their stuff on this GSA 8 website, GSA Advantage, and I know all of the 9 quotes for that wiring and stuff came from 10 vendors off that website. That's where were 11 it was eventually purchased through a separate 12 procurement I believe, if it wasn't part of 13 this, I can't even recall. But I do remember 14 the shopping for the wiring being done on GSA 15 Advantage through a vendor there. 16 : Okay. This might sound like 17 18 : I just don't remember. 19 : Sorry. This might sound like 20 a dumb question. 21 : I just don't remember. 22 : What's the difference between 23 a conduit and a wiring? 24 : So the conduit is the metal 25 pipe that you see running across or up and down EFTA00112899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 a wall that runs into little junction boxes and 2 the wiring just runs into it. 3 : So --. 4 : Runs through it. 5 : So that's a protection, the 6 conduit, it's an actual protection over the --. 7 : Yeah, yeah, it's metal or it 8 could be PVC, but obviously in the institution 9 it was metal and you run the conduit and you 10 run the junction boxes and everything and then 11 you pull your cable through it and it's 12 basically a protective housing to protect the 13 wiring and keep it from being exposed. 14 : And according to your memory, 15 do you recall whose decision it was to have the 16 in-house staff do the conduits and the wiring? 17 : It came down from the 18 executive staff, but that was discussed, jeez, 19 I can't even remember. That was back when the 20 numbers started flying in and they were trying 21 to find out ways to bring the numbers down and 22 everything, but it was somebody higherup that 23 made the decision to try and cut there on the - 24 when they saw how much the labor was, they were 25 like, "Well, maybe we could cut back on the EFTA00112900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 labor," because it was my goal that if they 2 were going to spend this kind of money, you 3 might as well have the contractor do 4 everything. 5 : Okay. 6 : And all my hopes and dreams 7 got killed because they saw the number and 8 wanted to cut some fat and - but --. 9 : No problem. See on the 10 bottom, it says - it was - the document 11 "Signature Offer Smith." It looks like 12 you signed on 09/21/2018 and that's - he works 13 for SigNet Technologies. And Line 31A that's 14 looks like U.S. Government, that's 15 (Phonetic Sp. *1:01:38), and that was 16 signed on 09/21/2018, and he's a Section Chief 17 FAO. 18 : Yeah. 19 : And the delivery date on Line 20 20 up here, it says, "Estimate" - well, I don't 21 know if it's estimate, but it says, "Delivery 22 date is on 09/28/2018." It says, "MCC New York 23 camera system: provide services in accordance 24 with SFS, SOW, and technical proposal." And it 25 looks like GSA, GSO7F-0322T. It looks like the EFTA00112901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 contract number's in here too. It looks like 2 based - looking at this, the contract, the 3 estimate was - I mean, the contract states that 4 the delivery for all that equipment and 5 everything that was ordered was scheduled to be 6 delivered at the MCC on September 28, 2018. 7 According to your recollection, do you 8 recall if all these items were delivered to the 9 MCC in September 2018? 10 : Can we go back to when this 11 contract was drafted? Okay. So you see here 12 where the award was 09/21? 13 : Yes. 14 : And then the delivery date is 15 09/28, that's a week. There is no way, no way 16 - I'm not even going to - I shouldn't have to 17 go any further, but I'm going to do it anyway. 18 There's no way you could deliver a product like 19 that - the install alone if the contractor 20 would have did it would have taken well over a 21 year. Just the install alone for that kind of 22 equipment if they were to do everything soup to 23 nuts on their own, conduit and everything, 24 would have took a year. 25 : But is it --? EFTA00112902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 : So -- 2 : Where is the equipment coming 3 from? 4 : I'm thinking that that 5 delivery date is the date they delivered the 6 contract to the contractor because there's no 7 way you can award a contract and expect to have 8 everything that's in that contract in seven 9 days get done. Delivery date I think is when 10 they delivered the contract to the contractor. 11 But to answer your question, as of February 14th 12 of 2019, my last day there, there was not a 13 single camera on-site there -- 14 : Is it possible 15 because -- 16 the cameras 17 : What's that? 18 were delivered without 19 your knowledge? Is it possible the cameras 20 would have been delivered without your 21 knowledge? 22 : That place, absolutely. But 23 I could tell you this much, two things wrong 24 with that. Number one, it was my impression 25 that the contractor when they received all the EFTA00112903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 cameras and got all the cameras in stock and 2 everything was on-site and they had all the 3 equipment on-site and everything was in stock, 4 they were bringing it with them. I didn't - I 5 don't know if they were going to dropship that 6 or not and have the stuff delivered directly to 7 the institution and then come afterwards. But 8 even if that was the case, somebody would have 9 to had gone to the rear loading dock where that 10 stuff comes in and there's a logbook back there 11 and they would've had to sign for that delivery 12 and it would've had to been somebody in the 13 facilities department. 14 : So you're under the 15 impression that - when you say "contractor," 16 you're talking about SigNet? 17 : Yes. 18 : So you're under the 19 impression that SigNet was supposed to bring 20 all that equipment with them when they come in 21 to install? 22 : Correct. 23 : So you're not sure 24 : We paid them to install it, 25 so to me contractually wise there would have EFTA00112904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 been too much liability there to have the stuff 2 shipped directly to the institution and then 3 call the contractor up and say, "Hey, come in, 4 all the stuff is here," because if something 5 was missing or broken, because the contractor 6 didn't have chain of custody of that equipment 7 the whole entire time, they could blame us. We 8 had a lot of liability on our hands and we 9 would still have to pay the contractor 10 regardless. We wouldn't be able to hold them 11 liable for any damages as far as that goes. 12 So my impression was when we did this 13 everything was going to go to SigNet or SigNet 14 was purchasing it and when everything was in- 15 house they would come and bring everything with 16 them and install it. 17 : I have an email here. I'm 18 going to show this to you. This email is from 19 . He's a program manager for 20 SigNet Technologies and -- 21 : Yeah. 22 : -- this is addressed to me. 23 It says, "I wanted to send this to you in 24 regards to the questions you asked." This is 25 dated October 1st, Friday, 2021, and this is -- EFTA00112905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. 2 : -- from to 3 myself. And he states, "Hey, . I wanted 4 to send this to you in regards to the question 5 you asked regarding if they had new gear on- 6 site. Attached is the PO that we received on 7 09/21/2018. The gear was delivered around 30 8 days after that and on 11/01/2018 I sent over 9 the paperwork for the site to submit for the IP 10 addresses needed to install the system. I will 11 forward the email traffic as well." 12 It looks like based on what he stated 13 let me see if I can get this. Actually, this 14 is the contract itself. It looks like he's 15 stating that by 09/21/2018 that's - the 16 contract was signed, and it looks like within 17 30 days all the gear was delivered. But you're 18 stating you don't believe the gear was 19 delivered? 20 : Nope, not at all. 21 : Is it possible that he was 22 now you - based on what your statement, you 23 believe the gear might have been delivered to 24 them. 25 : Well, that's my problem is he EFTA00112906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 doesn't clarify what gear means. I don't know 2 what gear means. Does gear mean just the 3 cameras? Does it mean just the wire? Does it 4 mean the entire contents? I don't know what he 5 - does it mean just the recorder. He's not 6 clarifying what gear means. 7 : Okay. 8 : Going back to what I said, I 9 could tell you that unless somebody signed for 10 something without my knowledge and didn't tell 11 me about it, there was no cameras on that. 12 There was no gear. They were just hanging 13 conduit when I leave there and that was conduit 14 that we owned that we didn't even purchase. It 15 was already there. So --. 16 : If gear was delivered, where 17 would it have been delivered to at the MCC if 18 the items - all these items were delivered? 19 : So it would've had to gone to 20 the rear dock. The rear gate they called it. 21 And then there's a Shipping and Receiving 22 personnel there, staff, and they have a big 23 cage that's in that loading area, so all the 24 deliveries go in there and then they would 25 write down who had deliveries, call those EFTA00112907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 departments and say, "Hey, you need to send 2 somebody to come pick up your stuff. You got 3 stuff here." So whoever that person was to go 4 there to pick up the stuff would have to sign 5 the logbook saying that they picked up the 6 stuff. 7 But you're talking about a truck loading 8 stuff that wouldn't even have fit in that cage. 9 It would've been like pallets and stuff like - 10 it would have been huge to store that stuff. 11 It would've had to have, you know - and then, 12 you know, it's all electronic stuff. That's 13 why I don't recall that stuff being delivered 14 prior to the - but I was under the impression 15 the contractor was coming with that stuff. I 16 was not under the impression that that was 17 going to get delivered separately, and if did 18 it wasn't to my knowledge. 19 I never saw a single new camera while I 20 was there or recorder or anything like that and 21 somebody would've had to have signed for that. 22 And then we would have had to have - there 23 would have had to have been inventory taken to 24 put that in storage and somewhere in the 25 Facilities Department. EFTA00112908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 So like I said, going back to the 2 contract, they awarded it on the 21st and wanted 3 it done by the 28th, that's just totally 4 unrealistic and irrational. I don't -- 5 : Now -- 6 : -- see that. 7 : -- if the things that you 8 purchased from them, would have that been the 9 material as well that your staff members would 10 have been using to run the conduit and wiring 11 and things? Is that part of that purchase 12 order or is that something you were going to be 13 receiving yourself and --? 14 : So I was under the impression 15 that SigNet was going to wait until they had 16 all their equipment, wherever they get it from 17 or whoever they're buying it from or who their 18 supply is, when they have everything they need 19 to do the job that's within the scope of work 20 of the contract, they were going to come on- 21 site with everything and begin doing the work 22 themselves. The only that -- 23 : (Indiscernible *1:10:19) 24 25 : -- my guys --. EFTA00112909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I'm sorry, go ahead. 2 : The only thing my guys - 3 yeah. The only thing my guys were going to do 4 was install the conduit. The wiring if I 5 remember correctly was purchased separately 6 through that GSA Advantage website and it was 7 through - I remember it was through a vendor 8 that they had purchased from previously in the 9 past, the comm shop, for regular supplies and 10 stuff. It was just like a regular 11 cabling/wiring company that had a GSA schedule 12 on that site. And that would have been 13 delivered directly to the institution. 14 : I apologize. I have one more 15 email. I'm going to share this with you too. 16 : Okay. 17 : This is Anixter TP-120, 240 18 and SigNet Tech. This is from 19 (Phonetic Sp. *1:11:04) to - there's 20 a whole bunch of names: Cowell 21 (Phonetic Sp. *1:11:09), 22 , the people listed. It's dated 23 on April 1, 2019. Subject is Anixter TP-120, 24 240, and SigNet Tech. It says, "Good 25 afternoon, Ms. . After reviewing my COBS EFTA00112910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 Report for the Central Office supplies samples, 2 I went ahead and asked I. our comm tech 3 on the status of these particular PO's and he 4 advised me that they haven't been able to 5 receive the fiber cable and without the cable 6 they cannot - they can't proceed with the 7 camera systems. He mentioned that the 8 company's requiring some sort of documentation 9 and he would be - he should be able to provide 10 you with the details. Sincerely, 11 Financial Program Specialist, U.S. Department 12 of Justice, BOP." 13 Now, does that help clarify anything? 14 : Yeah -- 15 : I know this is --. 16 : -- it just tells me that - it 17 verifies what I said, that there was no cameras 18 or wiring or anything on-site there at the time 19 that I left. It was just not there. But it 20 also makes sense that if these - the wiring 21 isn't there, they can't hook up the cameras. 22 But what got me - where I'm concerned, I guess, 23 with this is who were they talking to here 24 because this would have to be a problem with 25 SigNet. If SigNet's installing - connecting EFTA00112911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 the wires to the cameras and everything like 2 that, I don't know who they're really 3 addressing in that email. 4 : It looks like it's more 5 internal email, right? And they're trying to 6 figure out what exactly - why the camera 7 systems have not been installed yet. It looks 8 like told them that the status 9 of the fiber cable is not in, like the fiber 10 cable or cables have not been delivered, right? 11 I'm sorry. And without the cables they can't 12 proceed with the camera systems. 13 -: Well, yeah, that's cause and 14 effect. Yeah, so that's accurate as I read it. 15 The fact that it's three years since I left 16 there and there's still no wiring there is kind 17 of intriguing in itself. 18 : Well, this is 2019. This is 19 like a couple months after you left, April 1, 20 2019. 21 : Oh, I got you. Okay. Yeah. 22 : So that Anixster, would that 23 be the company? Would that be one of those 24 companies that provides wiring? 25 : Possibly, yeah. I guess so. EFTA00112912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 I'm not --. 2 I just sent you 3 an email. Can you just share your - or scroll 4 down to the second email and just - so that 5 maybe this will help -- 6 : Bear with me. 7 : -- clarify what was 8 received and what wasn't. 9 : Okay. Share your screen. Is 10 this the - you want me to scroll all the way 11 down? 12 : No. It would be the one 13 that says - what I sent you was the - did you 14 receive what I sent you 15 : Sorry. 16 : -- the email from Steve 17 Smith? It was from 18 : Oh, it's on the bottom, okay. 19 : -- to 20 : Yeah, it's on the bottom of 21 that. 22 : -- that 23 : Right here. 24 : That's it. Not on the 25 bottom. It's middle. EFTA00112913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 : Right here. It's in the 2 middle. So this is an email documentation from 3 , that's 4 dated -- 5 : Share your screen. 6 : Oh, I apologize. I thought 7 it was shared. Sorry, go ahead. Can you see 8 that? 9 : Yeah. 10 : We're talking about this part 11 right here. 12 : Correct. 13 : It says, ` I didn't 14 want to leave you hanging, so this is what we 15 know so far. It appears that FedEx might - 16 must recycle tracking numbers. The order was 17 placed on 09/27/2018 from SigNet to Qognify. 18 Nice and (Indiscernible *1:15:24) PO shows it 19 was shipped directly to the site, MCC New York. 20 It shows that it was scheduled to ship on 21 09/30/2018 from Qognify. We currently don't 22 have the tracking that shows when you exactly 23 received it but best guess is seven to 14 days, 24 which would put it on your dock around October 25 14, 2018, and it was installed the week of EFTA00112914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 August 16, 2019. We will try to continue - we 2 will continue to try and find the tracking 3 information for when it actually hit your dock. 4 Let me know if you need anything else." 5 : Yeah. So that was going to 6 be my next question is: Where is any tracking 7 information on this? And then if FedEx does 8 recycle tracking numbers, that's definitely 9 news to me. But also, when this email - what 10 are they saying they shipped? 11 : It looks like it was a 12 question about the camera system that was on- 13 site at MCC. They're talking about 14 specifically the camera system that was sent 15 from SigNet -- 16 : It doesn't say that. It 17 doesn't say that. It doesn't tell them what 18 they're - it doesn't even - forget about the 19 fact they don't have no tracking - it doesn't 20 even say what they're talking about other than 21 if we could identify what the - I don't even 22 know what that Qognify stuff is. That doesn't 23 even look familiar to me. 24 : So Qognify is the company, 25 the parent - the company that they deal with EFTA00112915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 for the Nice video system. 2 : Right. 3 : So they are the ones who 4 handle --. 5 : So that would tell me then 6 that's only going to be that component that was 7 delivered, which still if it was delivered, I 8 had no knowledge of it while I was there. 9 : And you're saying if it comes 10 in that pallet - let's just say the MCC 11 received a truckload of something like that and 12 it can't be housed inside the MCC at that 13 location, where else could it be housed? 14 : Well, I don't think - it 15 could be housed there, it just wouldn't be in 16 that warehouse there. It would have to be in 17 some other secure location within the facility, 18 like somewhere in the Facilities Department. 19 Most likely probably, like, in the comm shop or 20 something like that someplace. 21 : But if this --. 22 : I wouldn't necessarily say 23 that it would be stored offsite. 24 : Hey, just scroll 25 above to the email that I sent. It's EFTA00112916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 specifically with regard to He said 2 that it's the camera system that was installed 3 on the 19th. I mean, and if you don't know, 4 was the acting facilities manager from 5 February through March of - or May of 2019 and 6 then became the permanent facilities manager or 7 facility manager. 8 : Yeah, I believe he walked in 9 right as I walked out or right after or 10 something like that. It was very close. 11 : So he's telling us that 12 the camera system - you know, everything that 13 they installed was already on-site and that's 14 what he had told us. So he's saying it was on- 15 site by the time he got there, so we're just 16 getting confused when you're saying that it 17 wasn't there because he said it was already 18 there when he got there. 19 : I never laid eyes on it, and 20 I was never made aware that those cameras were 21 on-site in my whole entire time that I was 22 there. Somebody would have had to sign for 23 them. There's got to be some kind of tracking 24 information, and then like I said -- 25 : (Indiscernible *1:18:40). EFTA00112917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- going back -- 2 : No. 3 : I was under the impression 4 the contractor was bringing the cameras, not 5 being delivered separately without the 6 contractor. 7 : So according to his 8 email, you know, they're claiming that 9 beginning of October 2018 is when they would 10 have arrived, so is that - were you acting at 11 that point or was still there? 12 : Like I don't know, I can't - 13 I would need to know the date that 14 acted his last day on the job. And the only 15 milestone I can give you for that is, like I 16 said, when he went on that Colorado training 17 trip, he just never came back from that. 18 : Well, last time we spoke 19 last time - my understanding is when 20 left is August of 2018 was the last time he 21 stepped foot inside MCC. Does that help? 22 : Yeah, it does, but like I 23 said, I'm just - I never saw anything outside 24 of conduit regarding this project on-site there 25 at that institution. I was never made aware of EFTA00112918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 any of that being there from my - since the day 2 the contract was awarded up until the time, I 3 walked out the door there was no cameras in 4 that building -- 5 : And --. 6 : -- at least to my knowledge. 7 I never was made - I was never told, made 8 aware, never signed for them, never was 9 nothing. 10 : And if it did come, it says - 11 according to - it looks like this is the 12 contract. If it was delivered, it should have 13 been delivered attention to you according to 14 the contract, right? 15 : That's - should have - 16 exactly that's how that should have been done 17 if things are done the way they're supposed to 18 be done, but I never was made aware of any of 19 that stuff. I mean, like I said, it's been a 20 long time, but I never - I don't think there 21 was any - there's no way. 22 : And before - just on a 23 side note, as far as the conduit that needed to 24 be run, how long should've that taken your 25 people to run? EFTA00112919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 : It would have taken a very 2 long time because the department was severely 3 understaffed, and the institution came first. 4 The daily operations of the institution came 5 first. So if you had lights out, you had 6 phones down, you know, stuff like that the 7 tradesmen had to go ahead and take care of work 8 orders and stuff to maintain the institution 9 first and then they would come back and on 10 their downtime and stuff and do work pertaining 11 to this. 12 : Okay. About how many man 13 hours do you think it takes though, I mean, if 14 they actually had worked on it? 15 : It's kind of hard to tell 16 because I don't know the total picture of the 17 routing of where all the cameras were going in 18 addition to the ones that are existing there, 19 but I can tell you that when this whole thing 20 was going on every - we were all short-staffed. 21 There was a constant flip over of staff, and 22 then you had augmentation going on. 23 My guys were working housing units more 24 than they were in the department and working 25 mandated overtime. So they were covering - EFTA00112920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 augmentation was like you would act as a CO and go up in the housing unit for the shift, and then some of them would get stuck doing overtime for another shift. And then depending on how that fell, they went up there all day working the housing unit, got told they had to work all night, then they were banging on me in the morning because they worked a double before that. So - but I mean, man hours' wise, I really couldn't tell you. I know there's a book out there, electrical code book out there that tells you the standard amount of feet of conduit that can be installed within an eight- hour period, but I mean, it just - that stuff doesn't apply to a prison, especially MCC New York. There are just too much operational changes and stuff on a daily basis that prevented these guys from dedicating 100 percent of their work to something like that. Especially being that they already had something in place that was semi-functional. : Just to clarify, I know you mentioned it, said you never received anything, you never signed for anything. If the EFTA00112921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 receiving - if the delivery area received it, right, you said the back - the rear door received it, would they have some kind of log they kept? : Yep, uh-huh. : Where would I find that? : So that log was kept in the cage where the packages were - be delivered at. So inside that - they had one officer dedicated that had one key for that cage back there and that was their job. I & D it was called, they were part of that crew, and they would just go ahead and you get delivery, UPS, FedEx, they would all come in, put all that stuff in a cage, and they would write in the book who it was addressed to, what department, and then they would call you and let you know you had something or send you an email, however the officer chose to do it, and you would go there and sign for it and pick it up. : And no one notified you. This - the book that anything specific as : If they keep, is it labeled you recall? I recall correctly, I saw two different versions of the book. One was a EFTA00112922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 binder, a three-ring binder type with a pre- 2 filled out form, and then also there was a - 3 have you ever seen those little green 4 government logbooks that are just plain? You 5 know, there was one of those back there at one 6 point. 7 : Okay. And that should tell 8 us when - if and when it was delivered? 9 : Yep. 10 : Okay. 11 : And in addition to the 12 tracking information, of course, you know, 13 because I believe the three-ring binder part of 14 that - because that's the other thing is if 15 something is getting delivered to me, if I 16 ordered something out of the department, I 17 don't care what it was, a case of light bulbs 18 or, you know, a truckload of conduit or 19 whatever, when that stuff ships this way, the 20 vendor's sending me an email with tracking 21 information letting me know when to accept it 22 because they know it's coming to a secure 23 institution where the truck and the driver are 24 subject to screening and there's only certain 25 hours that they can deliver during the day. EFTA00112923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 So it's not like a wide open 24/7 2 warehouse obviously. They can only deliver 3 during certain hours. So I would make sure and 4 let everybody know you need to give me the 5 tracking information and I need to know what 6 day that this stuff is coming to me because I 7 need to make sure that I have the arrangements 8 in place to get this delivery accepted and not 9 turned away. 10 : Were you - back then were you 11 in constant communication with SigNet or was 12 there somebody else on your staff that was in 13 communication with SigNet? 14 : The comm techs. We had two 15 comm techs that started with this thing and 16 initialed. I inherited two comm techs when I 17 came there, which both were involved with the 18 project with when he started it. One 19 of them had retired and then one of them stayed 20 behind. He was still there. He was a younger 21 guy, which is that guy on the email. 22 : And who is the one that 23 retired? 24 -: (Phonetic Sp. 25 *1:27:11). EFTA00112924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 -: Do you know when he 2 retired? 3 : While I was there. I 4 couldn't give you an exact date. I really 5 couldn't tell you. I'm --. 6 : Was this toward the end of 7 : What (Indiscernible 8 *1:27:26). 9 : -- 2018, beginning of 2019, 10 or was it earlier? 11 : What's that? 12 : Was it towards the end of 13 2018, beginning of 2019 or earlier? 14 : I honestly really couldn't 15 tell you. 16 : Is it possible that SigNet 17 sent the tracking information to 18 : Very possible. They did a 19 lot of communication from what I understand 20 back and forth that I was not looped in on, but 21 that was during the pre-contract, pre-planning 22 phases or pre-ordering phase I should say. But 23 yeah, very possible that it could have went to 24 him. 25 : Okay. EFTA00112925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 : And it's also very possible 2 it could have went to the contracting officer. 3 Sometimes they do do that. So - and I noticed 4 if you go back to that contract there was that 5 guy (Phonetic Sp. *1:28:18) on there. 6 : This is up top. 7 : Do you see his name 8 : This is up here, right here, 9 you're talking about 10 Yep. So he is what we call - 11 I think he was in the Budgeting Department, but 12 he was what we called the "paper pusher" for 13 Fort Dix. 14 : That would be here? 15 : So basically, he did all the 16 financial stuff for MCC New York. He was the 17 guy that was on-site in the budget office and 18 then all that paperwork, he was technically, 19 like, an employee of Fort Dix. He was working 20 with them in the contracting and budgeting 21 office of Financial Services. 22 : You're talking about Line 7A 23 where it states , I , 24 (Indiscernible *1:29:05)? 25 : Yeah. So any time I want to EFTA00112926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 purchase anything, it doesn't matter what it 2 is, he would get the paperwork and then the 3 rest of it's between him and the contracting 4 staff at Fort Dix, the CO at Fort Dix, whoever 5 that CO is. 6 So sometimes with stuff like this, I have 7 seen in other instances where people will look 8 at this contract and they don't - they just see 9 a name and they just put it on there and send 10 them stuff. But I would also like to think 11 that if or even , the 12 comm tech, or somebody got a tracking number 13 that they would have had the decency or the 14 common sense or whatever you want to call it to 15 to forward it to me, you know, to send it to 16 me. 17 : Okay. As far as you recall 18 you left in February 14, 2019, and when you 19 left -- 20 : Sure. 21 : -- as far as you recall -- 22 : (Indiscernible *1:30:06). 23 -- MCC never received the 24 cameras or anything on this order, which would 25 be that - everything that's listed on Page 4 of EFTA00112927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 this contract order, you don't recall them 2 receiving it. And you believe that --. 3 -: I don't at all. When I left 4 there, they were still hanging conduit when 5 they could -- 6 : And the conduit was -- 7 : -- at times (Indiscernible 8 *1:30:27). 9 : -- items that was already in- 10 house that MCC from a previous project? 11 : I don't - yeah, because I 12 know they had plans to purchase more just in 13 case. But I remember going over to Building 4 14 and there was just racks and racks and racks of 15 conduit that they had over there. The 16 electrician knew - was there, that was part of 17 his overstock for his shop -- 18 : Where was Building 4? 19 -- that he hung. It's just 20 over the bridge in Brooklyn, an old Navy 21 shipyard. 22 : The Brooklyn Navy Shipping 23 Yard. 24 : Yes. 25 : So MCC kept -- EFTA00112928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 : It's right on -- 2 : MCC had a building inside the 3 yard? 4 : Yeah. It's kind of like 5 separated. It was - used to be part of the 6 yard, but it's totally fenced in by itself and 7 there's a big huge warehouse there. And at the 8 time that I had left there, food service, staff 9 from food service ran that operation because 10 they had big giant walk-in freezers and coolers 11 there, which is where they kept a lot of their 12 overstock. 13 But also, every single department in the 14 institution, didn't matter who you was, human 15 resources, trust fund, facilities, everybody 16 had their own separate cages in that warehouse 17 as well to keep overstock supplies for their 18 departments as well. And has its own loading 19 dock, trucks go in and out of there every day, 20 all day with deliveries and all kinds of stuff, 21 and if it's something that they can't fit at 22 the institution, it goes to Building 4. You 23 can have the driver take it to Building 4. 24 But in this case, I would have never 25 allowed that because I - the supervision and EFTA00112929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the oversight, there is none out there. At 2 least there wasn't at the time that I was 3 there. There was just one guy running the 4 whole show over there with a handful of 5 inmates. 6 : Okay. Agent , any 7 questions on that? 8 : No. I'm just looking 9 through all the emails from Hughwon right now. 10 : I don't have much more in 11 terms of questions in terms of follow-up 12 because we covered a lot of details. Bear with 13 me one minute. 14 : Sure. You guys owe me lunch, 15 I could tell you that. 16 : You just threw us for a 17 total loop because we've been proceeding this 18 whole time with the knowledge that these have - 19 were on-site, so that's where we - you've kind 20 of blown our minds here not knowing about it. 21 : Yeah, I just - I told - I - 22 when Agent Daniels gave me the initial phone 23 call, I was like, wow, 2018. That was like - I 24 just had no - we were still waiting on 25 everything. And even if - I would have EFTA00112930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 expected the contractor to be with them. But I 2 know there was delays with the wiring. The 3 wiring was crazy. They had some crazy delays 4 with wiring. 5 And to be honest with you, something like 6 this just the way that institution was ran, 7 there was just way too many hands in the pot. 8 It was just - two wardens, two AW's, two comm 9 techs, two facility managers it sounds like. 10 There's just too much stuff going on, too many 11 people involved. 12 : You mentioned that Executive 13 Assistant and 14 they possibly - you know, I know you were 15 acting facility manager, but at the same time, 16 you know, they instructed you, gave 17 instructions too. Any chance that they had 18 communications with SigNet over this? 19 : I don't see how or why, but I 20 wouldn't say no. I would say that if that did 21 happen, it would have probably been more with 22 than the AW because he had more 23 interaction with the warden as far as, you 24 know, keeping him abreast of things and stuff 25 like that, so. EFTA00112931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 : And just for the record, the 2 last name 3 : Correct. 4 : And you mentioned there was 5 other AW's too, 6 -• 7 -: . And then you 8 mentioned there was another II 9 10 : That's last name. 11 : Oh, I apologize. 12 -• 13 : Okay. 14 : Don't ask me how to spell it, 15 I don't know. He was an Egyptian. 16 : Okay. 17 -• 18 -• 19 : You would have saw his name 20 on the earlier stages of the project back when 21 was still managing it because he was 22 the AW with at that time. 23 : Okay. And you said the comm 24 techs would usually fix the issues that came up 25 in - prior to this camera system being - new EFTA00112932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 camera system being ordered, the comm techs 2 would fix the issues that came up with the 3 recorder and the decoder. What's a decoder? 4 : A decoder? 5 : Yeah. 6 : I have no idea. I just heard 7 it being used all the time. But see, I had a 8 personal issue. You got to realize in my 9 tenure with the Bureau, I worked at four 10 different institutions, three of them high 11 profile. All right. MCC New York, me and 12 used to - I had a problem with that 13 equipment being in the same office as my comm 14 tech. You go to any other institution, that 15 equipment is under SIS control and if they need 16 a comm tech to look at it, SIS calls for the 17 comm tech and then SIS stays there and provides 18 oversight, an escort the whole time that 19 they're working on that equipment. 20 Here at MCC New York, and I'm only 21 assuming because MCC New York's the oldest 22 building I've ever worked in - I think it was 23 built in the late '60s early '70s. But I just 24 was not used to that equipment being in the 25 office of the comm tech. Everywhere I've ever EFTA00112933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 been that was always in SIS, but these were all 2 newer buildings. I think every other 3 institution I worked in was much newer, but I 4 just wasn't accustomed to that equipment being 5 in - it was just unreal to me. I just, you 6 know --. 7 : Can you explain that to me 8 one more time? So my - our understanding is 9 there's a SIS office, then there's a video -- 10 : Yeah. 11 : -- monitoring room, right, 12 where they can see -- 13 : Right. 14 everything on the cameras. 15 That's where the SIS - an SIS officer sits. 16 They watch everything on the video monitor. 17 And isn't the access for the camera system 18 inside a room that's inside the video 19 monitoring room? 20 : Are you talking where? 21 : At MCC. 22 : Yeah, but where, downstairs 23 in the comm tech's office, or up in someplace 24 else? 25 : So - wait, wait. So I'm EFTA00112934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 talking about on the third floor where the SIS 2 office is. 3 : Okay. 4 : Isn't there a video 5 monitoring room? 6 : I've never - I don't know. I 7 never put eyes on it. I know that there was 8 equipment in office and 9 office, the two comm techs in that same office, 10 and there was equipment that was in that room 11 that was part of that system. 12 : What equipment was in that 13 room? 14 : I have no idea, I just know 15 it was, like, in a locked cabinet. 16 : So you're saying the comm 17 techs had equipment, the live equipment for the 18 recorder, everything in their room that they 19 could access? 20 : There was some kind - yeah, 21 there was something related to the camera 22 system that was in a cabinet in their office 23 that was related to that and that's why in that 24 office they also had a secured cabinet for shop 25 stock and supplies. And if any of that stuff EFTA00112935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 would have got delivered and I knew about it, 2 that's exactly where I would have put it was in 3 that cage. 4 : The comm techs in their 5 office, did they have live monitoring, monitors 6 set up for the cameras? 7 : What do you mean by that? 8 : Like for the video. You know 9 how the SIS shop has - you can watch the live 10 videos throughout the institution? They have a 11 few of them that are up live feed. 12 : That's what I was trying to 13 say. I don't know what equipment's involved 14 behind that, but they had the ability to watch 15 video from the cameras in their office. 16 : And 17 : And like I said, I've never 18 seen that at any of the other institutions I 19 was at. It was always the comm tech goes to 20 SIS, puts their hands on the equipment and 21 fixes it, does whatever they've got to do. 22 : When --? 23 : MCC New York, I don't know if 24 it's because of the age of the institution or 25 not, but they did - I don't know what the EFTA00112936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 equipment is, but they -- 2 : Excuse me. 3 -- have the ability to see 4 footage from their office. 5 : Did they have TVs set up on 6 their wall or was it just on their computer 7 screen? 8 : No, the had TVs on a wall. 9 : And do you --? 10 : I don't know how - they had - 11 yeah, they had - I don't know how they monitor 12 it, but they did have TVs on the wall, at least 13 one that I can remember. 14 : And you recall being in the 15 comm techs' office and you could see the live 16 feeds on their wall? 17 : No. I remember seeing a TV. 18 I never witnessed any live footage, but I know 19 that it was discussed through just variable 20 internal things where they had that capability 21 in there. 22 : And you believe in that 23 little - the cabinet that was locked up in 24 their office they had - those were the actual 25 DVRs, the recorders, were inside the office? EFTA00112937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I don't know what the 2 equipment was, I just know that they had the 3 ability to monitor cameras in their office. 4 : Okay. 5 : Yeah. I don't know what was 6 in there, but I am assuming that if they had 7 the ability to monitor the cameras, they have 8 some sort of equipment in there, unless for 9 some reason or another somebody ran 10 : Is it possible -- 11 -- wires from it. 12 for like the night 13 supervision, like if they had supervision 14 access, they could log in and view cameras off 15 their computer system? 16 : I don't know. If they had 17 any kind of access like that, I wasn't aware of 18 it. 19 : Okay. 20 : I always - I just had a hard 21 time - I just never seen that before. They 22 shouldn't - you know, the only time a comm tech 23 is dealing with camera stuff is when there is 24 there's a repair or maintenance involved. You 25 know, they shouldn't be able to, at least in my EFTA00112938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 opinion and from what I've seen at other 2 institutions, be able to just hit a power 3 button and turn on a monitor and see footage, 4 whether live or recorded. 5 And then the fact that that was in their 6 office, you know, was just astonishing to me. 7 It was new to me, and the only thing that kept 8 me somewhat at bay was that it was - the comm 9 techs were the only trade in the whole entire 10 department who didn't have inmates working for 11 them because of this - the equipment they had 12 access to. Which is also a reason they can't 13 get a lot of work done so quick is because they 14 don't have inmate (Indiscernible *1:42:19). 15 They're the only people in the entire 16 Facilities Department who doesn't get any 17 inmate labor help because of the equipment and 18 stuff that they have access to. 19 : Where was the office located, 20 the comm techs' office? 21 : It was over - it was 22 downstairs in the basement and it was between 23 the Safety Office and Food Service. 24 : Okay. That's all I have. 25 Agent , do you have anything else? EFTA00112939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No, I don't think so. 2 -: I know it's been 3 - I told you it's going to be a short interview 4 and it's been almost two hours now. Thank you 5 for being patient. I know we went back and 6 forth. As mentioned, you know, a couple 7 things threw us for a loop because our idea of 8 what transpired, how things transpired, 9 complete changed at this point, but we might 10 have questions, follow-up questions for you in 11 the future, and is it okay if we reach back out 12 to you if we have more questions? 13 : We'll probably do it via 14 email just so that we're not taking more of 15 your time and then you can have a moment to 16 actually review it and then just send us 17 something back, so we're not going probably 18 interview you again or anything like that. 19 : Yeah, that's fine. I just 20 like I said, the - you're saying I threw you 21 guys for a loop. You guys threw me for a loop. 22 I mean, some of that stuff on that paperwork is 23 just - I mean, reading it as it is, it just - I 24 don't know, but yeah, I guess if you need me 25 again just give me a shout, send me an email, EFTA00112940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 or whatever the case may be, and I'll send you 2 the bill for lunch. 3 : If you think about anything, 4 if you feel like you thought about something 5 that popped in, your memory got refreshed while 6 you're sitting there, you want - send me an 7 email. 8 : I got you. 9 : Thank you again for taking 10 the time to talk with us, and this is Special 11 Agent . The time is 12:50 p.m. 12 and we are turning off the recorder. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00112941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00112942