EFTA00113283.pdf

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: NONE 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 : The recorder is on. My 1 name? To start, wain, I am 00]/OIC Senior 2 name is , and I am a senior 2 Special Agent . M-A-T-U-L-E- 3 special agent with the U.S. Department of 3 W-I-C-Z. 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 4 MR. : This is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 5 York Field Office, and these are my 5 D-A-N-I-E-L. And these are my 6 credentials. 6 credentials. 7 : Thank you. 7 : Thank you, sir. 8 : All right. And this 8 And can you say and spell 9 interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 9 your name for the record, and your position 10 emplo ee - is it ? 10 title? 11 . 11 : Okay. Senior officer 12 ? 12 atcialist. First name Last name 13 : Yes. 13 IIII. C-A-L-E. 14 , is being conducted 14 That's fine. We'll ask 15 as part of an official U.S. Department of 15 you more later. And how do you spell your 16 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 16 first name? 17 (DOJ/OIG) investigation. Today's date is 17 : K-I-M-A-N-A. 18 August Sth, 2021, and the time is 2:34 p.m. 18 Okay. Thank you, sir. 19 This interview is being conducted at the 19 This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into 20 Metropolitan Correctional Center, or the MCC, 20 the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the 21 located in New York, New York. Also present is 21 surrounding circumstances, and you are being 22 DOJ/OIG Special Agent . This 22 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 23 interview will be recorded by me, SSA 23 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 24 . Could everyone please identify 24 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 25 themselves for the record, and spell your last 25 : Yes. EFTA00113283 S 1 Thank you, sir. This is 2 a form that we give to our voluntary - or to 3 our employees who are requested to provide 4 information on a voluntary basis. It says, 5 United States Department of Justice, Office of 6 the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances 7 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 8 a Voluntary Basis. "You are being asked to 9 provide information as part of an investigation 10 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 11 General. This investigation is being conducted 12 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 13 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 14 performance failure and security failure. This 15 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 16 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 17 action will be taken against you if do not 18 choose to answer our questions. Any statements 19 you furnish may be used as evidence in any 20 future criminal proceedings, or agency 21 disciplinary proceedings, or both." And 22 there's a waiver section. It says, "I 23 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 24 above and I am willing to make a statement and 25 answer questions. No promises or threats have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any kind has been used against me." So, you can take a look, if you'd like, at this form. And if you agree with it and understand it, you can sign where it says employee signature, and then print your name where it says employee's name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) if you'd like. : Okay. Okay. You said sign my name ri ht here? : Yeah. Where it says employee signature. And then, you can just print your name underneath, where it says -. Okay. My full name? MR. : Yes. • Yes, please. Thank you, sir. Okay. And I am signing where it says signature of Office of the Inspector General Again, this is Special Agent, and I am rintin my name below. . The date is 8/S/21, and the time is -- MR. : 2:38. MR. : 38. 7 1 -- :38 p.m. Place, at 2 MCC, New York. Special Agent , can you 3 please siiiiiiithe witness? 4 MR. : This is Agent , signing 5 as the witness. 6 7 form? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. You understand 10 this is voluntary. You can choose to leave at 11 any time. Thank you. Before star." I'd 12 like to place you under oath. , could 13 you please raise your right hand? Do you swear 14 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth 15 durin this interview? 16 : Yes. 17 Thank you, sir. Please 18 let me know if you don't understand any 19 questions. I will repeat it or try to rephrase 20 it. Okay? is our current home address? 21 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:26 23 Zip code is 24 25 that's in Newark? Did you understand that • Thank you, sir. And 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Newark, New Jersey. : Okay. And what is your date of birth? 8 30/1975. : And what is your SSN? : The last four or the whole thing? The last four is fine. P cell hone number? 8 And what is your current And what is your highest level of education? Hi h school. : High school. And where did you o to high school? : Malcom X Shabazz. Newark, New Jersei : And when did you graduate high school? 1993. : Thank you, sir. And what did yiiiiiiiiior to working for the BOP? : I used to work for private EFTA00113284 9 10 1 corrections, CCA. Corrections Corporation of 2 America. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . Okay. Great. Now, do military service? . No, sir. And how long have you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? February will be 20 years. : Okay. Great. Do you remember our entry on duty date? I=I February 10th of 2002. : Thank you, sir. And do you recall when you graduated from BOP trainin around, like, the - even the year? : I can't. I don't remember. Would it have been right away, in 2002? : No. It was a little later. : But you've attended it? Yes. : And that is correctional officer training down at FLETC? Yes. : Okay. Great. And what is your current position with the BOP? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 specialist. : I'm a senior officer And what does that position entail? : It just means that, you know, I've worked every post, and I've been on -. Worked about every post, and I'm a little bit more trained than the people that's now getting hired. Okay. So, and it's in the custody side of the house? : Yes. Okay. Great. What is your iiiiiiiivel? : My grade level is eight, step ten. : Great. Thank you. And are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? Yes. : Was he housed within the MCC in Jul and August of 2019? : I believe so, but I'm not too sure. Because E stein wasn't a big deal to me. : Okay. And what do you mean by that? 11 1 : Meaning that, he's just - he 2 was somebody that was being processed through 3 the federal government for committing a crime. 4 : Okay. What about after 5 the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news 6 attention and everything that had been placed 7 upon it, did you think it became a little bit 8 bigger of a deal then? 9 : I guess it was a big deal of 10 how, you know, the job was treating them. You 11 know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- 12 profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad 13 been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide 14 watch. 15 : Okay. And you're saying 16 that based upon the fact that he killed 17 himself? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. And we can get 20 into that more later. What was your position 21 at the MCC in July and August of 2019? 22 : If I remember correctly, I was 23 internal number two. 24 : Okay. I'm sorry. Were 25 you a senior officer specialist -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 Yes. -- as well? Perfect. And they're the same duties and responsibilities that you just described? Basically, like, a very knowled eable correctional officer? : Yes. Yes. About that. Yeah. Okay. Did you have any interactions or involvement with Epstein during his stay at MCC? No. No. Did you even communicate with him at all? No. : Did you see him at all? : I seen him once. I think he was down on suicide watch. One time. : Okay. And were you workiiiiiiiiiicide watch? No. I think I was activities, maybe. So, I had to go through, sign the logbook, maybe. I don't -. I can't remember what post, or what post I was on, or maybe I was internal. You know, and, you know, we have a shortage of staff. So, I wear many different titles during the day. EFTA00113285 13 1 : Sure. 2 : So, I can't really tell you how 3 I saw him that particular day, but I know I did 4 see him. 5 : Okay. So, when he was on 6 suicide watch, you remember, you know, you have 7 acted as the activities lieutenant, though, in 8 the past? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. Great. 11 : But that day, I can't remember 12 what 13 : Sure. Do you happen to 14 remember if you worked at the MCC on August 9th 15 and 10th of 2019? The day leading up to and the 16 day he was - the day of - finding him in his 17 cell? 18 : Yeah. I believe so. The day 19 of? I was certainly here. The day before? I 20 can't remember. 21 : Okay. Great. Do you 22 know what you were doing that day? And I have a 23 duty a ent - I have a -- 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : I'm going to give you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 the dail : I was -. • -- receipt, and I'll try to -. Here you go, and here is the daily assignment roster for both Friday, August 9th, 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2019. I have taken the liberty of just highlighting your name next -- Okay. -- position title. : Control one. And internal number two. So, on August 9th, you were control number one, and then, August -. : No, now, which one is the day of? And so, we got the day leadin' to it will be the 9th. • Okay. And that's where it says that Control one. Yes. -- you were control one. Okay. And that says that you were control one from 4:00 p.m. until midnight? 15 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. Great. And then, 3 the following day, it says Saturday, August 4 10th, 2019. You were internal number two, on 5 overtime, from midnight through 8:00 a.m.? 6 : Yes. 7 : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in case 9 we ask ou about anything -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- with regard to, you 12 know, either you or other people that were 13 working on that, on that day. So, as - let's 14 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 15 state that you were control number one. What 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? 17 : Okay. For control number one? 18 : Control number one. 19 Correct. 20 : The duties entail -. 21 : And specifically, we're 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to 23 midniiiiiiiiit. 24 : Okay. 4:00 p.m. to midnight 25 shift. Duties entail of just, you know, being 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 the eves and the ears for the lieutenant. Okay. : We reviewed the camera, and we watched the cameras a little bit. We popped doors. We answered phones. If anybody is calling, asking about their loved ones that are incarcerated here. So, you're in the control center, correct? Yes. : Are you one of two officers in the control center? Yes. : All right. So, what is the difference between what the control number one officer does, and the control number two officer does? : Okay. Control number one officer. Control number one officer actually, you know, popped the doors, do all the paperwork. : Okay. So, when you say paperwork, like, if they're counts, you fill out tiiiiiiiiwork? : Not the counts. That's the CNA EFTA00113286 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 officer, or the internal unit two officer. The control officer, the control officers handles the door, the popping of the doors, listening to the radios. Answer it. Okay. And so, and who actually is supposed to take care of the counts, then, during that time? The counts are CNA. Or now/internal two. Okay. And what does CNA stand for? : CNA is - what is that - Counts. Oh, it's been a long time since I had to, like, pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is Is that somebody that's listed on this sheet? : -- internal number two. : Oh, so, CNA is internal number two? Yes. : Okay. So, in this case, it's : Yes. : All right. So, he 18 1 actually would be the person that's supposed to 2 be doin the counts? 3 : Yes. 4 : All right. And what 5 about for, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, for 6 internal number two, from midnight through 8:00 7 a.m. What were your duties and 8 responsibilities? 9 : Yes. That was me, internal 10 number two. My duties was to generate the 11 count. Generate the PPE1. Make any moves, if 12 any inmates move from one unit to the next 13 unit. Answer the hones. 14 : So, when you say inmates 15 move from one unit to the next unit, do you 16 mean, like keying them into different -- 17 : Yes. Keying them into -- 18 -- so, keying them out of 19 one, and ke ing -- 20 -- key them out of a -- 21 -- into the other. 22 -- out of a housing unit, and 23 movin them to the next. 24 : Okay. So, not the actual 25 physical movement -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 Yes. -- you're talking about electronically. Electronical. : Okay. In the BOP databases. Yes. : Perfect. So -. : And also, my duties are to actually go upstairs and do the count. To help out internal with the count. : Okay. So, not only are you taking the count and filling out the paperwork, but you're actually physically going somewhere? Yes. : And where are you going to? : I have to go - at that time - I had to count Nine North, and unit two. Okay. And then, so, I know Nine South. What is Nine North? Nine North is a housing unit. : Okay. So, just a normal, regular general pop housing -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 Yes. -- housing unit? Okay. So, that's what you were doing in that specific date? Yes. : Or is that always the internal number two goes and counts Nine North? : Yeah. That's how they have internal number two set up for their post. So, always counting the same housing units, every -- : Yeah. -- every shift? : Basically, we help out internal. If you was working as the internal officer, and you needed my help to, you know, because Jou know that I'm supposed to help you. Okay. : You would say, hey, IIII, I need you to count nine and two, or just say, I need you to count both sides of 11. Gotcha. Okay. I'm - So, you're basically the EFTA00113287 21 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yeah. -- control number - I mean, is it control number one, that we're talking about? Control number two. Control number one is kind of, like, in charge -- : Yeah. -- and then, control number two -- : Control number one -- -- is the assistant. -- do not leave control. : Control number one stays in there the whole time? Yes. : Okay. Control number two actually is the one that -. Okay. So, the person who is control number -. Control number one doesn't leave? Yes. : All right. So, you wouldn't have left then on Friday, August 9th. You would have been in there the whole time? : Yeah. 1 : During your shift. 2 : Yes. 3 : And then, you're saying 4 that on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, when you 5 were internal number two, that's when you would 6 have left your shift, and helped with the 7 counts? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. But as their 10 internal number two, you were actually taking 11 the counts and writing in the documentation? 12 : I'm taking count, and also, I'm 13 going upstairs to actually physically do the 14 count. 15 : Okay. 16 : In two houses. 17 : All right. But as 18 control number one, the day before, you weren't 19 actually supposed to be involved with the 20 counts? 21 : No. The only thing I do is sit 22 there. Once you complete the count and you 23 tell me, and we have a good verbal, I announce 24 it on the radio, I log it in the logbook, and 25 then, you say, clear count. I announce it on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 the radio. Write it in the logbook. Clear count. : Okay. And on these dates - and I'm sorry to pop back and forth - but on Friday, August 9th, 2019, when you were control number one, who would you be primarily be workiniat i? : At that time, shortage of staff, ou could have any -. : I mean, on this specific No. -- date. : You have a different partner almost every lain this specific be working with , if he was in - if he was internal number two. : Okay. So, the two of you would be working together? : Yeah. But I really don't think I was with that day. I think it was Marrugo, and then, he went home, because Marrugo goes home at 10:00. Because I was workin with Marru o, and then he went home. : When did he go home? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 : I think he went home at 10:00. : At 10:00? : And I -- : So then -. -- probably was in there by myself for a few, but I can't remember. I can't remember. No, that makes a lot of sense. We're going to go over the actual counts because you actually took the count at 10:00 '.m. : Okay. : So, that makes sense. So, was he supposed to go home, or he had to go home -? Yes. He's supposed to go home. : Okay. So, at the 10:00 p.m. count, then, as control number one, you actuaiiiiiiii it -? : Yeah. Like, when you're in there by yourself, and there's a shortage of staff you of to lay both roles. : Okay. At 10:00 p.m., though, was there supposed to be two people in there? EFTA00113288 25 1 : Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. 2 : So, that's what I mean. 3 So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only 4 until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the 5 count happens after the person - control number 6 two - leaves. Right? 7 : Yes. So, control number two is 8 supposed to print up everything, and since he's 9 off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork 10 that he enerated and do the count for him. 11 : Okay. So, control number 12 one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. 13 count. Correct? 14 : Control number one is not 15 responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if 16 you are in there by yourself, now that's your 17 second 'ob. 18 : Okay. So, who is 19 responsible for it, then? 20 : Whoever is supposed to be 21 posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It's two 22 different. Like, see here, we have a lot of 23 job titles that kind of, like, they took from 24 us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is 25 supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 time control goes in. At this time, when he was on eights, when he was on eights, every shift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. My fault. 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 to 12:00, and then, 12:00 to 8:00. When CNA comes in for evening watch, evening watch is 4:00 to 12:00. 4:00 to 12:00. When evening watch comes in, control one comes in, control two comes in. Now, somebody, you know, had a big idea and said, hey, you need to, you know, we need to stop generating money. We need to modify the hours. So, we don't need two people in control. So, they modified the hours, and made control number two. Yeah. : From that time. : Right. So, at this : So, I think this is, what, 2:00 So -- E- : -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- : - now? -- Correct. So, that's where I'm saying, it's, like, if they're 27 1 leavin at 10:00 -- 2 : Yes. 3 -- and the count is being' 4 conducted at 10:00, and they usually get, you 5 know, they leave usually a couple minutes 6 before, too. It sounds like, at this time, on 7 August 9th -- 8 : Now, I -- 9 : -- you would have been 10 the one -- 11 : -- took the count. 12 : -- who took the count. 13 : Yes. 14 : So, that's where I just 15 want to make sure we're not getting -. Because 16 I'm getting confused with all this. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 19 as control number one, you would have taken the 20 count? 21 : Yes. If my name is on that 22 form, I took the count. 23 : Right. And no one else 24 would have been in there with you to take that 25 count -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. -- it would have just been you? Okay. All right. Because I was getting confused. All right. And then, as far as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number two, you would have also taken the count. Correct? Yes. : The 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? : Yes. If they filled that post, like, my name is there, so, they filled that post with overtime. So, that was me. Okay. : So, I did that post. I worked that post. I generated the El. I went upstairs, conducted the count on the two housing units that I have to count, and then, I would go back downstairs, and finish the count on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me up, saying, hey, this is EN with the count of 14, and I would say, good count, bad count, and then, cross it off the on paperwork. : Okay. And then, we talked about who you worked with on August 9th. 28 EFTA00113289 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 You said that, although this says Marrugo, you think it's somebody else? : I think it's somebody else. I can't remember. : Sure. : And then -- : It's been a while. -- on August 10th, 2019, it says you were internal two, internal one was - does that say Dupre? : Yeah. He don't come in -. Oh, well. He's internal. So, that's the person that I'm hel in to conduct the count with. : Okay. So, he is doing all -- He's -. -- he's actually physicall oing to the different units? : Yes. Collecting count slips, and thins like that. Yes. : And you're assisting, you said -- Yes. 30 1 -- with him. But you're 2 also takin the counts? 3 • Yes. 4 : Okay. Thank you. And 5 who did you report to on these days? Are you 6 always re rting to the Ops Lieutenant? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. So then, so on 9 Au ust 9th ou would have been reporting to 10 , I think, both times, because 11 Cannata, although he's listed, he was relieved 12 at 10:00 p.m. back then. They were working two 13 hours before the start of their shift. So, 14 started at 10:00 m. So you 15 would have been reporting to . 16 then, for both shifts? 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. I don't - you know - I 20 don't recall (Indiscernible *00:21:20). The 21 only thing I could try to recall was what I was 22 doing because that's all I could do. 23 : Well, per these 24 documents, at least, it shows 25 would have -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 Yeah. It shows her name. -- been the person you're reporting to. Okay. Were you previously interviewed under this investigation? : Yes. You know, the first time. Yeah. Were you interviewed more than once? No. lust once. : Okay. I'm going to just review the report that was written in regard to that interview. I just want you to - I'm not going to provide it to you because it's written on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was present. So, it's our information to have. So, I'll read it to you. And just, if you can just stop me if there is anything in there that is not accurate. Okay. : Okay? So, it says that, , Senior Officer Specialist at the Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional Center," and it says, yada, yada, yada. "Was interviewed at the United States Attorney's Office, Southern District of New York, 1 St. 32 1 Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for 2 the interview were FBI Special Agent 3 FBI Task Force Officer, TFO 4 Office of the Inspector General Special 5 Agent , and Assistant United States 6 Attorney AUSA MI advised 7 that the interview was in lieu of an appearance 8 before the federal rand jury, and is 9 voluntary. SA provided with an OIG 10 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 11 to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis 12 form, which IIII signed, and was witnessed by 13 SA's and Moore. SA retained the 14 original, and a copy is attached in the 1A 15 section of this report. After being advised of 16 the identity of the interviewing investigators, 17 and the nature of the interview, MI provided 18 the following information. I. worked for 19 Corrections Corporation of America from 20 approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started 21 workin for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 22 2019, was assigned internal two on the 23 morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 24 This post helps with the count, getting 25 paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00113290 33 1 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of 2 the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not 3 require help for the count because there are 4 officers stationed in those units that do the 5 counts. Duringthe morning watch shift of 6 August 10th, prepared the coatJa getting 7 the paperwork together. Officer IIIIII, as the 8 control officer, took officer's phone calls, 9 receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 10 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an 11 officer calls into control with the count for a 12 particular unit, control advises if the number 13 was a good count or a bad count. Control has 14 many different functions. So, when an officer 15 calls in a count, control takes the officer's 16 word that the count was conducted. didn't 17 think that control received the verbal count 18 from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. 19 However, he could not say for sure because he 20 wasn't the one taking the calls for the counts. 21 was assistin in doing the counts in the 22 other units. signed off on the counts 23 because during that shift, he was the senior 24 ranking officer. On the morning of August 25 10th, 2019 -." Is that all correct? 34 1 : Yes. 2 : Does that sound accurate. 3 : Yeah. It sounds accurate. 4 : All right. Because the 5 person said -. I thought she said that 6 she wasn't taking the calls. 7 : Okay. 8 MR. : She wasn't taking the calls? 9 : Oh, yeah. 10 : So -. 11 : We help each other. 12 : Okay. 13 : Mm-hmm. You know, we help each 14 other. So, if I'm upstairs doing a count, and 15 it takes me a little longer to come downstairs, 16 she will ick u the phone and take the counts. 17 Okay. 18 : Now, if I go upstairs, and the 19 counts, you know, it's a little faster, I will 20 come downstairs and I will take over the 21 paperwork, just, like, you pass me your 22 paperwork, I will let you do what you do -. 23 Let you finish doing your task, and I will take 24 it ri ht back over where you left off. 25 : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 : And I will -- : Because, yeah -- -- (Indiscernible *00:25:11). I think her explanation was, she helped with, like, you know, everything else, you were involved with the counts, taking the counts on the phone, and Yeah. -- and writing the counts. Is that accurate, actually? Yes. That's accurate. : So, this actually is inaccurate the way it says that she took all the counts and the phone calls, then? : I mean, I can't really remember ... what actually happened, but Okay. like I said, we try to help each other out -- • Sure. because we all have -- • But as your -- many different jobs. . -- and this isn't, like, 36 1 an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want 2 to make sure I understand, because your 3 responsibility on August 10th was actually to 4 take the calls, and take the verbal -- 5 : Yes. 6 : -- counts. Correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Great. "On the 9 morning of August 10th, 2019, a bod alarm went 10 off at approximately 6:33 a.m. responded 11 to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, 12 along with another officer. The Nine South 13 officers, medical, and Lieutenant IIII were 14 already at the location. With medical 15 performing CPR. went to get a stretcher 16 and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the 17 medical unit. When emergency medical surveys 18 arrived, they started performing CPR, took 19 Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported 20 him to the hospital. followed the 21 ambulance to the hospital in another secure 22 vehicle. IIII stayed at the hospital until he 23 was relieved from duty." 24 : Yes. 25 Okay. "IIII doesn't EFTA00113291 37 1 recall any specific state that Epstein was in 2 when he responded to the scene. did 3 recall that Epstein was still loose, because 4 Epstein had to be put in restraints before he 5 could be transported. However, there was no 6 movement by Epstein on his own." So, was 7 Epstein still alive? 8 : Their policy states that nobody 9 passed away inside the institution. Like I 10 said, when I responded, when I got to the post, 11 in Nine South, he was already doing, performing 12 CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. 13 : Okay. 14 : They was already performing 15 CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, 16 someone needs to go get that gurney so they can 17 carry him down to medical. So -- 18 : And I understand -- 19 : -- (Indiscernible *00:27:13). 20 : -- that you're not able 21 to say if he was officially alive or dead, but 22 was he showing any signs of life? 23 : I don't know. Once I see 24 somebody performing CPR, that means something 25 bad is going on. So -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 Did you see his eyes open? : -- honestly, I cannot really tell you what he looks like. Okay. : Because it's been so long ago. And the only thing I know, they was performing CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if you're performing CPR, he's definitely going to have to o down to medical. : Okay. So, you can't recall - even though this was a big incident, and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or anythin like that? I can't recall. : Okay. "I'll acknowledged that he wrote a memo about the incident. This was due to the fact that when one responds to a body alarm, it has to be documented. did not recall any interactions with Epstein prior to Epstein's death." And that's the end of that. Okay. : Does all that seem 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 accurate? Yes. : Okay. I'm not going to attach that. All right. So, we are going to go over the count sheets that were done. Oh, shoot. All right. So, these are just the count sheets for the (Indiscernible *00:28:43). This one is -. I'm going to move this over here. So, this one wasn't you. I'm just showing you, kind of, where I have highlighted just the time, and then, I have, you know, what we're particularly interested in, are going to be RA and ZA. Okay. : ZA stands for the SHU. Correct? Yes. Nine South. : The Special Housing Unit. And RA stands for R&D. Correct? Yes. : All right. Great. So, here is the one for 8/9/2019. It looks like this was the 5:00 a.m. count. Correct? Yes. : All right. It shows in 40 1 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, 2 it's 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for 3 the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. 4 So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One 5 in attorney conference. And one in -. Or I'm 6 sorry. 75 that were actually physically 7 present in the SHU. Correct? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : All right. And then, 10 we're going to go back, and now we'll start 11 looking at these count slips, just so we can 12 kind of get an idea. All right. On the second 13 to last page, there's a ZA, it shows 75. I 14 just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, 15 time 4:00. It says Noel and signed for 16 them. Correct? 17 : Okay. 18 : And then, attorney. It 19 actually says three. A total of three, because 20 they were from other units. All right. So, 21 and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? 22 : Yes. 23 : All right. So, we've got 24 the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we 25 get to where you come in. So, this is the EFTA00113292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we'll go to the - it last page here. So, 10:00 p.m. Was this *00:31:11 Yes. 41 10:00 o.m. count. Correct? Yes. : So, on 8/9/2019, this was printed out at 9:33 p.m. According to this, RA - or R&D - both show zero. Yes. : ZA - which is the SHU shows 73 on both columns. Correct? Yes. : So, is this your handwritin here? Yes. : All right. And would this be "good verbal," 10:30 p.m.? Yes. : All right. So, that means you took the verbal count, as well? Yes. All right. And so, then, looks like the second to here R&D, 8/19, an =? (Phonetic Sp. : All right. And then, up 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 handwritin 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 here, we have an NS+1. And then, here, for ZA, we got a 73+1 8:00, 9:00, 10:00 p.m., it looks like a and a Noel. Correct? Yes. : Would you be the ones that was crossing off all of these count slips? Yes. : Do you know why these were not crossed off? I'm not too sure. : Are these nine S, plus one on the R&D, and this plus one on the ZA, were they our handwriting? Yes. : So, that is your Yes. : NS+1? • That nine S looks like my handwritin . Yes. : And do you know what that would have meant? : Okay. Sometimes, they asked us to, you know, at the Sentry, it's too late to punch in the body, oh, well, punch in the 43 1 inmate into the specific housing unit because 2 the count, you know, the count down states 3 that, after, what? 8:00, after -. If the count 4 is being conducted at 12:00, you have until 5 10:45, I think, to punch in any new inmate that 6 is going to a specific unit. So, at this time, 7 I believe - because only a lieutenant could 8 tell us, to host count. 9 : Okay. 10 : So, basically, the numbers are 11 here, the numbers are right, but on this 12 specific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs 13 to be moved to Nine South. 14 : Or that they otherwise, 15 Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Because RA, or R&D, shows 18 zero. 19 : Mm-hmm. 20 : Correct? 21 : Yeah. So, he's in -. So, 22 basically, he's in RA right now. Because 23 that's why we got that little count slip saying 24 RA plus one. Basically, he's supposed to be 25 Nine South. He's supposed to be Nine South 44 1 plus one. But ri ht now, he's in RA. 2 : Okay. So, what is - when 3 it says -. Should this say 73+1 then, or is he 4 sayiniiiiiii, 5 : No. That's supposed - yeah - 6 it's supposed to be minus one, but I guess that 7 was an error b me. 8 : All right. And you're 9 the one who wrote that? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. So, and are you 12 positive you're the one who wrote this plus 13 one, and this 9S+1? By looking at that. 14 : Now, this right here don't look 15 16 17 18 19 handwriting. But I know that Nine South, that 20 nine and S ri ht there is mine. 21 : So, he Nine South plus 22 one is ours? 23 : Yeah. 24 Okay. And is there a 25 reason why this wasn't crossed out? like m handwritin . 73? : The plus one next to the : Yeah. That don't look like my EFTA00113293 45 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I don't know. : Okay. And is there anything that you can think of, why wasn't the person that was in R&D, why weren't they changed out of the SHU and put into R&D internallI in the BOP systems? : I'm not too sure. For El. So, by the way that this is -. Do you know if you did this at 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you remember EM ber if ou did it after the fact? : I can't remember, sir. All right. But in order to do this, you're saying that an Ops Lieutenant would have had to authorize that? Yeah. : So, you would have spoken to that oerson? Yeah. And do you remember if you suoke to that person, though -? : No. I can't remember. • All right. So, the fact that these people gave you a count that said 73, would that be an inaccurate count? If there 1 was onl y 12 in the unit? 2 : Yes. It would be an inaccurate 3 count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my 4 name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that 5 one. 6 : All right. Did you drop 7 the ball or did they? Because, look, I don't 8 want to say that you dropped the ball here, 9 because it looks like, to me, there were 73 10 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at 11 midnight, although this is 72 here, and this 12 last page, it shows ZA, they're still saying 13 73. And then, to get even a little more 14 confusing, when I look at -. When you look at 15 these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if 16 you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it 17 starts the shift at 73. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And then, at 12:35, 20 number one, negative one SHU correction, 21 Fernandez, dry cell. And if you go back to 22 this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., 23 it says, Fernandez was placed on dry cell from 24 ZA. So, it looks like that was finally 25 corrected at 12:35 a.m. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 Okay. : So, does that help jog your memor a It all about what happened here? No. : Do you think that, being that this count, this 73 matches up with this count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the midnight count slip still says 73, but at 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count slips after IIIIIIII: Hmm. I believe so. I can't really recall, but it looks like I dropped the ball somewhere. But how would you have dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 73? : Because as you see right here, it says 73. So, something went wrong with the numbers. Somethin went wrong with the -- Yeah. -- numbers, but I know for sure that vie had 73 or 72 at that time, on those units. 48 1 Yeah. No, I mean, so, 2 our investigation, we believe, is showing us 3 that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. 4 However, the people in the unit were reporting 5 73, because that's what the documentation 6 showed, 73. So, they weren't actually 7 conducting their counts. They were reporting 8 what the thought the numbers should be. 9 : Yeah. 10 : So, that's what we're 11 asking you, if they're reporting 73, and your 12 document shows 73, I don't see how you're 13 droppiiiiiiiiball. Do you? 14 : I mean, somehow, somehow, you 15 know, like, you showed me my handwriting right 16 here, on the hi hlight -- 17 : Well, that's where a 18 portion of me wanting - believes that you 19 probably did this. So, every count slip here 20 is crossed off. Aside from these two. Why 21 would that be? 22 : I don't know. 23 : Do you know if these 24 countiiiiiiiiould have been re-created? 25 : I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00113294 49 1 looks like handwriting. That looks 2 like Noel's handwriting. So, you know, 3 everybody has a, you know, like, a certain type 4 of handwritin . 5 : Okay. Yeah, so, can you 6 think of a reason why you would cross all these 7 off, thou not these two? 8 : I'm not too sure. I can't 9 remember. 10 : Have you ever seen that 11 before? 12 : Sometimes, it happens. 13 : And -. 14 : Like, especially if count slips 15 come down late. Sometimes it could happen. 16 Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another 17 task, and I just, you know, looked at it, 18 looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, I 19 stapled everything together. That could happen 20 too. So -- 21 : Okay. 22 rbecause sometimes, we have 23 another task to o do. 24 : Now, at the 12:00 a.m. 25 count, on August 10th, does that mean that 1 2 with ou? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 50 was in there taking the count Yes. Okay. So, she was in there, and you said you can only put a plus one on a count slip if it's approved by the Ops Lieutenant. Yes. : Does that tell you that the probably, then, these plus ones probably occurred after the 12:00 a.m. count? No. I don't know. : Because you said you couldn't do the -. That you couldn't ut these plus ones at 10:00 p.m. unless took the count -- Yeah. -- at 12:00. : So, this had to be done before 10:00 m. Or during -- : Well, the counts had to do --... or during 10:00 p.m. -- right. The counts had to be done during 10:00 p.m., but these marks 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 73 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, they didn't necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. Correct? : Yes. These have to be done at 10:00 : But the actual Nine South plus one, and this -- : Yeah. -- plus one -- : Yeah. That's after. -- can't be done after the fact? : Maybe a little bit after. Maybe a little bit after because the count probably didn't clear until -. The count didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this probably was during that timeline, from either 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be brought about or enerated. : All right. Well, so, this person who is in R&D, it's this person, like I just mentioned, Fernandez. This is an inmate quarter history. This person wasn't removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 Mm-hmm. there. Ops Lieutenant : When - again - she was . So, are you sure that this Nine South plus one, and this plus one would have taken place at that 10:00 .m. count? Yeah. : Because why - if that were the case - why wouldn't this have happened well before the 12:00 p.m. count? Because again, this R&D slip, there's not even somebody there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. count? Or why would have she caught it at 12:35 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 73 on their count slip? You follow what I'm saying? : Yeah. Does that make you think about them a little bit differently? : 73 is what the count is supposed to be? No. 72 is what the count EFTA00113295 53 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 It is su osed to be. : Yeah. : So, this count -- : Okay. -- on the El is correct. : Yeah. : The count slip is incorrect. : Yes. The count slip is incorrect. So, at 10:00 p.m., these guys are reflecting 73. Your El shows there's supposed to be 73. So, you have a good count. : Yeah. And so -- : This one, they reflect -- -- I dropped the ball -- --73. I must have dropped the ball right there. : So, what I'm asking, though, with this, you're telling me that his handwriting had to have happened at the 10:00 p.m. count. Yes. : Correct? And you still 1 stickliiiiiii? 2 : I believe so. Yeah. I believe 3 so, because wh is it there? You know? And -- 4 : My -- 5 -- (Indiscernible *00:42:26). 6 • -- own idea is it's there 7 is because you now have the person, the Ops 8 Lieutenant, at 12:00 a.m. saying, hey, go back 9 to this count slip, put these plus ones, so it 10 reflects that's where these people actually 11 were. Did that make sense? 12 MR. : Do you understand what he 13 Yeah. 14 MR. -- showed you? 15 Yeah. I -- 16 MR. : About the fact that -- 17 • -- I know what he's saying. 18 MR. : -- the actual (Indiscernible 19 *00:42:44 of that inmate missing. 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. : Didn't happen until passed 22 midnight, because if not, the corrections would 23 have had to happen at 10:00 p.m. 24 : Yes. 25 : Yeah. So -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 Now, now -. -- if this was caught at 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn't be messed up. That person would have been keyed out. Right? Yeah. : But he wasn't keyed out until 12:35 a.m. Okay. : But their slip is still bad -- : Yeah. -- at 12:00 a.m. : Their slip is bad. : So, the count slip is bad. That count number is good. That is the real count number. The question is, when did this happen? To me, it looks like the people in the SHU were just reporting the number they thought they were supposed to be giving to you. 73. They didn't realize that this guy wasn't in there. He was actually in R&D. He was in R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. count is bad. The 10:00 p.m. count is bad. And finally, at midnight, it's caught. So, I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 don't - the way I look at it - it's not a drop the ball on you. Because you didn't know that that guy wasn't in there. So, we're trying to help you put the pieces together of, if this is your actual handwriting, when would have that happened? To me, it seems like you're relying on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured it out is because she's getting count slips. I don't know when this count slip would have come in, but there's a count slip for R&D at 10:00 p.m., and there's another count slip for R&D at midnight. But like we said, this is the one thing that's bad, this is bad, if that actually came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in R&D. Okay. : But the thing that we're trying to piece together, and what we're trying to talk to, is two) because of when were these things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you know, notations made on these two count slips; and second, why are they the only two that are EFTA00113296 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. : Hmm. I don't have no answer for -- You don't remember that - It -- for that question. -- at all? No. : Do you remember, at all, any conversations that were had with the SHU that night, with regard to these counts? Or this 'erson being placed in R&D. : No. • Do you -. I can't recall. • Do you remember - so we're told that the Ops Lieutenant, , claims she may have had a conversation with the SHU, and where this person is - do you remember that at all? No. : No? : Because if she talked to SHU, I wouldn't have been on the phone for that. But wouldn't you have 58 1 been next to her, though, if she was in 2 control correct? 3 IIIIIIII: Yes. But, you know, like, if 4 she was talking, I probably was focused on a 5 different task, because I have paperwork that I 6 have to do too. 7 : Okay. 8 : But around this time, I start 9 cleanin out the folders. 10 : Okay. So, around the 11 10:30 .m. time? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, there's 14 nothing that you can kind of help shed us light 15 on, with these count slips? 16 : No. I don't have nothing. 17 : And is it fair to say, 18 though, you do not know when you put these Nine 19 S plus one on the R&D, and then, the plus one 20 on the ZA? 21 : Yeah. 22 : So, you don't -. 23 : Now, this is not my handwriting 24 right here. 25 So, the plus one next to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 the ZA is not you? : I don't think that's me. But I know for sure that's me. Right there. MR. : What do you know is for sure? The nine S or the plus one? : Yeah. The nine S, plus one. Because the plus one here looks kind of similar to this plus one there, doesn't it? : It looks similar, but I don't believe that's my handwriting. But it could be. It could be. : Or maybe this plus one isn't ours just the nine S is yours. : You know, it could be my handwritin . And I can't -- It could be. I can't remember. You know, it's been -- M All right. a while. : It's been a while. But has -- Yeah. -- anything like this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 ever ha ened before? That you can think of. : Probably. I mean, you know -- : Have you seen -- -- it's not a -- -- things like -? -- it's not a, you know, it's not a -. It's not a, you know, it's not a science. You know? Mistakes do happen. Because we do drop the ball. That's why we have to, you know, view each other, and be, you know, and work behind each other, and look over each other's shoulder. It can be possible. : So, any one that we've showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I've never seen anything like that before. But this has actually happened in the past, where you've seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine S plus one? : Sometimes. Like I said, you know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., R&D should have one home already. : Yeah. So, they have a guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, watching him. EFTA00113297 61 1 : Yes. 2 : Correct? And that's where 3 that we et the name 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- he's a custody guy, 6 right? 7 : He's custody. 8 : Right. And this guy, 9 apparently, has been in there before the 4:00 10 p.m. count. 11 : Yeah. 12 : There is no count -- 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- slip from -- 15 : Mm-hmm. 16 : -- for the 4:00 p.m. 17 : Yeah. 18 : He's never keyed out of 19 SHU. So, again, I haven't been looking at you 20 as dropping the ball on this. So, explain to 21 me whiliiiiiiink you dropped the ball here. 22 : I should have caught it. I 23 should have said something about it. And maybe 24 I -- 25 But how would have you -. 62 1 : -- maybe actually had a fault 2 over it, you know? Started, you know, 3 complainin about it. I don't know. You know? 4 : How would have you known 5 that it was nine S plus one? Would SHU have to 6 have told ou that there was somebody? 7 : Yes. 8 : So, you believe you 9 called the SHU, and they told you? 10 : I don't -. I can't recall if I 11 called SHU or not. I probably was doing what I 12 was told. Because, as an officer, that's, you 13 know, I know that's a no-no. You can't put 14 that. 15 Okay. So, if there are 16 only 72 inmates in the SHU -- 17 : That should have been minus 18 one. Like ou said. 19 : -- but this slip that 20 they gave you in the first place was wrong. 21 Correct? Shouldn't have their slip that they 22 provided to ou say 72? 23 : Yes. 24 : So, does that indicate 25 that they didn't do the count, to you? 63 1 : No. You could still do the 2 count. I mean, you could still do the count, 3 but if somebody, you know, higher up said, yo, 4 this is what you need to put on the count slip, 5 that's what you put on the count slip. Now, 6 you knallill24_12mebody dropped the ball. 7 And that's where, again, 8 my opinion has always been all along that it 9 was the SHU that dropped the ball. So, I want 10 you to keep in mind, again, because there's 11 still Noel and Thomas. On this 10:00 p.m. one 12 is Noel and . On the 12:00 a.m. one, 13 it's Noel and Thomas. Both of their count 14 slips say 73. So, if somebody told somebody at 15 10:00 p.m. that there was actually only 72, 16 which is what I'm gathering you're trying to 17 say, why at 12:00 a.m. would of they continued 18 to write 73? 19 : I don't know, sir. 20 : And that's where -- 21 : (Indiscernible *00:49:33). 22 : -- and that, again, 23 that's where I just want to make sure we're not 24 tripping over ourselves here because that is, 25 to me, highly unlikely that if you spoke to the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 SHU at 10:00 p.m., and told them, we got somebody in R&D, they wouldn't continue to write 73 at 12:00 a.m. Would they? : I'm not too sure. I can't -- : Especially if -- -- (Indiscernible *00:49:55). -- the El now, because at 12:35, it's correct, that it says 72 : Yeah. -- at 12:00 a.m. Right? : Yes. Like, at this time, I just generate the El. Right. : And I put my name as the officer, who I'm preparing. Now, if the lieutenant took the count, you know, like -- And the lieutenant can't take this count -- Yeah. -- correct? : Like, the lieutenant wrote her name, she took the count. Me as the officer that was preparing this, I should have took a look at it, to see if the numbers all jive from last, from the last count. But I figured that EFTA00113298 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 the El was correct, and it cleared, in good verbal, and it cleared. So, nobody didn't think nothin of it. : So, if the Ops Lieutenant is supposed to be taking the 12:00 a.m. count, and the 12:00 a.m. count slip from the SHU is saying 73, whereas the El says 72, is this bad on the 0 s Lieutenant? Bad on both parties. : Would you be assisting her with this? : No. : During that time. So, on this part, how would you be involved, if she's doing it herself? : I should have took a look at the numbers before I gave it to her. : But it looks like this was printed out at the same time that -. So, this erson was keyed out at 0035. Mm-hmm. : This El was printed out at 0035. Mm-hmm. : So, it looks like it was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wrote this? 66 the exact same thing. She keyed out this person, Fernandez, from SHU and placed him in R&D, at the exact same time this El was printed out. : Yeah. : Correct? : Yeah. : So -. : Okay. Now I see where you're going. This is wa after the 12:00. : This is way after the 12:00. But this count slip says 73. The 10:00 p.m. count slip also says 73. My point being is, I don't think you did anything wrong here. I think this thing, the El, shows 73. They're providing you something that says 73. So, to me, you're good. But the question is, when did these things come into play. One of these notations. I can't remember. : You can't remember? : I can't remember. But I know that Nine South is mine. So, you know that you 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 Yeah. : And you believe you would have wrote it, though, per the Ops Lieutenant's direction? : Yeah. All right. So, Lieutenant , who was the Ops Lieutenant, would have instructed you to do that? Yeah. : And don't you believe that she would have done that, told you to do that after she realized that person wasn't in SHU, iiiiiiiison was in R&D? : Oh, probably. Probably, it was a miscommunication about where that inmate was truly at. So, does that make you think, re-think what you said, then? You said, at 10:00 p.m., you would have - 10:00, 10:30 p.m. - you would have made those notations, but now, does it make you think, oh, you know what? It probably was after the 12:00 p.m. count that I made those notations? : No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 Per her instruction. : No. I wouldn't have did this because I would have known this is, you know, this will come back and bite you in the ass if I did this after -- No, no, no, I'm not talking about -- -- midnight. -- the whole concept. Mm-hmm. . I'm simply talking about the plus one and the Nine South plus one. : Hmm. Oh, I don't -. I wouldn't have did that after, at the 12:00 count oin backwards. : So, do you remember having a conversation with her, then, after the fact, and letting her know Fernandez isn't there? : I can't remember. : Okay. : I'm sorry. : You know, I'm just, again : That was such a while -. EFTA00113299 69 1 -- the reason -. So, if 2 you did notice it, how would have you noticed 3 it? 4 : Before the -. Oh, well, I did 5 this durin the 10:00 p.m. count. 6 : You would have -. And 7 the Ops Lieutenant would have had to tell you, 8 during the 10:00 p.m. count, that this has 9 happened? 10 : Yes. 11 : And then, again, this is 12 where I'm super baffled. Why wasn't the person 13 keyed out until after the 12:00 a.m. count? 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : The 35 and the 3S. 16 : Okay. 17 : Do you follow me? 18 : Yeah. 19 : Why wouldn't that have 20 happened until then? Especially if you noticed 21 this. Why would the SHU have continued to 22 report 73? 23 MR. : Can I ask a question? 24 : Yeah. 25 MR. : What time did 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 come on her shift that night? Oh. MR. Do you recall? We were talking about 10:00 p.m. MR. : Was she around when this 10:00 m. came in? : Yes. She should have been on duty at that time. MR. : Do you recall -- Now, what time -- MR. : -- any -. • -- what time did she come on duty? I can't really remember because they've been chap in their times, you know -- MR. : Okay. • -- so, I can't really remember at that time. MR. : Do you recall any conversations with her? Forget the SHU. With her, re arding somebody being in R&D? : Hmm. MR. : Or the El being wrong, between 10:00 p.m. and midnight. : Hmm. No. I truly can't 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recall. . Okay. MR. : So, I have follow up on the 10:00. Right? So, you did the 10:00 p.m., right? And I just realized something, too. If this count slip came up, right? The 10:00 p.m. count slip came up, and the SHU is on the -. Right? How come the El didn't get updated? ME' I can't -. MR. : What is the normal procedure? Let's say it turns out that you're doing the count, ri ht? : And we (Indiscernible *00:55:40. MR. : And you have a body in R&D. Right? And there's a count slip here. What should have happened? : What should had happened is another El should have been generated. Like, this one was, after the 12:00. MR. : But that one was generated. . I just want to make sure I -. Indiscernible *00:56:04) (Indiscernible *00:56:03) MR. : (Indiscernible *00:56:03) 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : 10:33. No, 9:30. MR. : 9:30. Oh, 9:33. MR. : And this is for the 10:00 p.m. count. And this is for the 10:00. MR. : So, you've saying that this El is for the 10:00 p.m. count, was this printed out at 9:33 p.m.? Mt Yes. MR. : And being the fact that a slip came up from R&D, you're saying that a new El for the 10:00 p.m. -- : A new El should have been generated, but we're supposed to not do that. Or no. I'm not too clear on how -. Like, I normally, normally, we don't do -. Normally, we don't generate another El unless somebody tells us to. But I should have just did a new El. MR. : Who would have to tell you that a new El had to be generated? : Normally, we take it upon ourselves to generate an El. Like, I should 72 EFTA00113300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 73 had generated a new El. MR. : Should -. Okay. At that point, being the fact that there's a body in R&D, right? And somehow, it got marked because it looks like it was associated, it says nine S, to the SHU slip. MR. 916 Yeah. : That there was a body moved. Should there have been a flag that there was somebiiiiiiiiing in the system? : Yeah. There should have been a flag. MR. : So, what should have happened? Was the count right, at that point? : Paper wise, no, the count was not right. MR. : So, what should have happened? : A new El should have been generated. The inmates name should have been, you know, sent to CNA, so we could process, to type them into the system. MR. : What should have happened to the count slips? : They should have been trashed, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and new count MR. conversations night? MR. left. MR. somebod 74 slips should have been generated. : Do you recall having any with anyone in the SHU that No, sir. : What about R&D? : If it's 10:00 p.m., R&D already : But keep in mind, this is in there, right? In custody. MR. : According to the count slip, there's -- In custody. MR. : -- in custody, but he's sitting in R&D right now -- : Mm-hmm. MR. : -- because they have a body sitting in dry cell, and he's watching over -- : Mm-hmm. MR. -- the erson in dry cell, in R&D. Now that, when sends to you - sends a count slip, and says, hey, listen, I've got a body sitting here, right, and you see the El, should a conversation been 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 had with , also? Yes. MR. : And -. : Like I said, is just a correctional officer. He probably was pretty new. So, he probably didn't know, either. You know what I'm saying? You know, he probably didn't know to call CNA, or -- MR. : But know what, though? -- (Indiscernible *00:58:43). MR. : Sorry. What would he not know? : Probably not know -. He probably thought that the inmate was already in the system, because he's sitting on the post. MR. : No, no, but I'm saying that, you have an El sitting in front of you, with zero, sitting in R&D. He's sending you a slip for one person. : Yeah. MR. : Should a conversation had been had with , hey, listen, who do you have there? Yes. MR. : Was a conversation like that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 ever happened that night? : I don't recall. MR. : Okay. Okay. And you're just -. Point being on this, that's your handwriting, you just don't remember what happened, or when it ha ened? : Yes, sir. Correct. But you do - you're sticking with - you do believe that you would have written that stuff during the 10:00 p.m. count, and not after it was recognized at 12:35 a.m. -- Yes. -- so, you think that you did this actually during that count? Yes. : That's just what's baffling to me. But if you did that during that count, wouldn't you have contacted the SHU, to let them know that their count is wrong? : Yes. I think either A, either I would have did it, or send it what I did it, but I don't recall talking to Nine South and EFTA00113301 77 1 myself. 2 Right. And per the Ops 3 Lieutenant, she said that she had the 4 conversation with them, and she said she had 5 the conversation with them during the 12:00 6 a.m. count. 7 : I'm not too sure. 8 : Okay. 9 : I can't -. 10 : And you don't remember 11 that conversation? 12 : I don't remember. 13 : All right. So, you 14 believe the R&D unit, at least the Nine S is 15 your handwriting. On the 10:00 p.m., ZA count 16 slip, the SHU count slip, you do not believe 17 that lus one is your handwriting? 18 : No, I don't believe, but it 19 could be mine. 20 : Okay. 21 : Because I did take the count. 22 : All right. And you don't 23 know why you would have crossed every other 24 countiiiiiiiif, aside from this, these two? 25 : No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 78 And you know if you've ever done that in the past? : No. : Okay. All right. All right. Let's move on. If you do remember anything about that, again, in our mind, we've been going upon the fact that the SHU is reporting what they think the El is supposed to be, you know, the El says and what they're supposed to be reporting. They're reporting they're incorrect numbers, from at last 3:15 p.m. They have one less than the number that they're actually showing on their count slips. That's for the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. count, and even the 12:00 a.m. count. So, if you can remember anything with regard to that knowledge, but after the fact that we speak, you know, and when these things happened, we would so reatly appreciate you calling us -- Okay. -- and letting us know. When we go through documents, rather than bombarding you at the end, we ask people to initial and date those documents. So, I'll just - while we're at it - I'm going to show. 79 1 Is this 3:00 a.m. count on August 10th, 2019, 2 was that ou as well? 3 : That's mine. 4 : All right. Great. So, 5 this first El, it shows - again - ZA now shows 6 72, ZA says 72. RA says one, RA says one. And 7 the same thing with these count slips, the back 8 ZA says -. Now, the ZA does say 72. So, they 9 changed from their 12:00 a.m. count slip, where 10 they're reporting 73, to now the 3:00 a.m. 11 count slip, they're showing 72. RA is, again, 12 showin one. Correct? 13 : Yes. 14 : And would this be a big 15 deal, if this kind of stuff happened? Where the 16 Els are bad, the count slips are wrong. 17 : Yes. 18 : And being that this is, 19 like, a big deal, this isn't at all sticking 20 out to ou -- 21 • I mean -- 22 • -- remind you that -. 23 • -- yeah, but, like, this is the 24 first time, you know, I'm talking about these 25 Els, y'all are the first people that brought 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 this to m attention. : Oh, so, you never even knew that until now? I never knew this until now. : And even at this time, though, when it was happening, no one ever brought it to your attention that, dude, these count slips aren't matching up what the El says? No. : So, you don't even remember that taking place? No, sir. : All right. And then, here's the 5:00 a.m. count, created by you. Or, you know, it shows, again, one in RA, 72 in ZA, or the SHU. And here's the RA count one slip. Here's the 72 for ZA. Again, Noel and Thomas. All right. So, these all look good. Now, is this normal, to print out the -. So, the 5:00 a.m. and the 3:00 a.m. counts were both iiiiiiiiout at 1:22 a.m. Is that normal? : Sometimes, the computers go down. Okay. EFTA00113302 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 81 : So, me personally, I know that the computers go down. Meaning that Sentry, for the BOP, normally goes down. So, I try to print up several copies, so just in case if the computers go down, I have copies already. Okay. : Now, on a typical, normal shift, when the computers are up and running, Sentry is up and running, I try to print it out an hour of the count. . Okay. MR. : within the hour, you mean? Oh, within the -- MR. : Okay. -- within the hour of the count. MR. : Okay. : You know, 45 minutes to an hour of the count. MR. : Do you recall, any time that night, receiving any replacement count slips? MIL I can't really -. MR. : Any conversations about, hey, listen, there's a second set of count slips coming up from the SHU? Or anything to that 82 1 effect? 2 : No. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 And again, do you mind 5 just, all these documents, just initial and 6 dating the top of each one. It's not to 7 certify the accuracy. It's just to say that 8 this is what we actually spoke about during 9 this interview. 10 MR. : Today is 8/5/21. 11 8 -- 12 : 5/21. 13 -- 8/5/21. 14 : Yeah. 15 Okay. 16 : lust the top of each one. 17 And this is just for accuracy? 18 : No, no. 19 Oh. 20 : This is just to say -- 21 (Indiscernible 22 *01:05:35. 23 MR. : -- state that these are the MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. 24 documents showed you. 25 : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 83 Yeah. So, by you putting your initials and dates on it, we can say, we can positively confirm this is the document we talked about. Okay. : So, we can't go back later and, like, change something and say, no, we talked about this document, and say, no, no, no, no, it's got my initial and my date, you know, my date on here. This is specifically what we talked about. Do you follow what I'm saying? : Yeah. • lust to show what the documents you were presented, you know, what documents you were presented. So, it sounds, like, by when you're saying that you think you dropped the ball, it sounds like what you're saying is, you knew that someone was gone from the SHU, and it was in R&D at 10:00 p.m., but you never contacted the SHU to let them know, or to ask them about it? Or you just don't remember? No. I just don't remember. : Okay. 84 1 : You know, I apologize if I 2 can't help you anymore. Since this is the 3 first time I'm hearing about this, y'all 4 bringin it to m attention. : But you do agree that the 6 SHU should have been providing count slips that 7 said 72, both at the 10:00 p.m. and the 12:00 8 a.m. count. Correct? Being that he was moved 9 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., the day before? Or 10 on Au ust 9th. 11 : I do agree because that's a 12 part of your post orders. And I, you know, 13 that's a art of our function. 14 : Yeah. So -- 15 : (Indiscernible *01:07:12) 16 custoil 17 : -- the count slips were 18 bad. And regardless of what you can remember, 19 the 10:00 p.m., or actually, the 4:00 p.m., the 20 10:00 p.m., and the 12:00 a.m. count slips 21 provided by the SHU were all bad because this 22 guy was moved to the R&D holding cell at least 23 3:15 .m. Correct? 24 : Yes. 25 : Yes. They all should be EFTA00113303 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 85 one less than what they were reporting? Yeah. Yes. : Okay. Thank you. And again, though - and I want to be clear on this - by you putting 95+1 on the RA count slip, and plus one on the ZA count slip, that would have had to have been by the direction of the Ops Lieutenant? : Yes. Somebody higher up than an ei ht. : Okay. What is your understanding of what happened to Epstein on August 9th and 10th of 2019? : My understanding is that he committed suicide. Okay. And what is your understandin' of how he died? : He died by hanging himself. . Okay. Do you have any information with regard to any suspicious activity that occurred on August 9th or 10th, 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in his cell? No. : All right. I'm just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 going to over these very generally. These issues. What do you know of Epstein's alleged first suicide attempt on July 23rd, 2019? : Nothing. I don't think I was here at that time. I mean, I think I was either off, or I called out. So, I don't really know about his first hanging. Okay. Now, was he -- Or attempt. -- was Epstein placed on suicide watch? Yes. : Okay. And then, being placed on suicide watch, when they returned to the SHU was he required to have a cell mate? Yes. I believe so. : Okay. Is everybody that returns to the SHU required to have a cell mate if the 're on suicide watch? Yes. : Okay. Do you know if Epstein was prematurely removed from suicide watch? : I don't know. But I believe so because, you know, I mean, he's fighting a very 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 big case. Mm-hmm. : And so, if he tried the first time, I definitely believe he would try it again. And do you know why he was removed from suicide watch after the first attemiiiiiiii : I'm not too sure. There was speculation, you know, they said rumors about the court system, you know, since this case is so big, he needs access to his lawyers. He needs access to his paperwork. So, maybe, maybe, maybe his lawyer pulled in some paperwork to a judge, and the judge probably said, yo, he needs to have access to his paperwork. I'm not too sure. So, you had heard that, possibly, the judge contacted who? The warden? : Possibility. I don't know. Okay. : No. I'm too small on the food chain to know this information. And who did you hear -- : All that. 88 1 : -- that from? 2 : It was just rumors, and word of 3 mouth of ou know, how us officers talk. 4 : Okay. But you had heard 5 that contacted the warden? 6 : You know, I can't say it's for 7 sure. 8 : Right. 9 : It's just, you know, what, you 10 know, it was, like, drinking. You know, 11 drinking, having a couple beers, this is what's 12 going on in the building, this is what I heard. 13 Some of it is true. Some of it is very not 14 true. 15 : Sure. 16 : So, I don't know. I can't 17 reall sa that's definitely. 18 : Okay. And what do you 19 know about Epstein's cell mate being removed 20 from the MCC on August 9th, 2019? 21 : I think he got released. I 22 think he of released. 23 : So, he was transferred. 24 But - all right - did you have anything to do 25 with -. Did you know his cell mate was Efrain EFTA00113304 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 Reyesiiiiiiiiu know that? : I heard of his name. But I'm not too sure since I don't work nights at all. : Okay. Had you heard that he was transferred, or released? I lust -- : Like, removed from the MCC? : I heard that his bunkee was released. Okay. : Now, that's all I heard. Like, how sure it is, how definite, I don't know. : Now, with you being in the positions that you were in on August 9th and August 10th, working in internal and control, would you have anything to do with that, with making sure the SHU was aware that Reyes was not coming back to the institution? : No. : No? Okay. What time did you begin work again on August 9th? At 6:00. Or -- MR. :00. -- at 4:00. So, what 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 90 time does the -. If inmates aren't back from court -- Yeah. people -? -- what time does the : CNA do not do anything for the courts. Okay. : That's R&O's job. R&D's job is to, you know, delegate all the courts, and we don't touch that. Now, if an inmate comes in late, like, you know, like you showed me, like if an inmate comes in late, or have to stay in R&D late, and I have to move him later, to another housing unit, like take him off of RA and put him, or put him in Nine South, ZA. That's what I do. I just type, type, type -- = Mm-hmm. -- transfer. : All right. So, and let's go back to Fernandez. Who should have keyed Fernandez out of the SHU and placed him into the R&D? : Take him out of SHU, place him into R&D, it's supposed to be CNA. 91 1 Okay. And then, who - if 2 this happened at about 3:15 p.m. Let's see, 3 the (Indiscernible *01:13:08) - who, on this 4 daily schedule for August 9th, should have done 5 that? If it happened at about 3:00 in the 6 afternoon. 7 : If it happened at 3:00 in the 8 afternoon, whoever was in CNA, CNA during. 9 MR. : We'll explain the situation a 10 little bit. He was a SHU inmate. He had 11 visitation. He went into the visitation, and 12 officers saw him ossibly receiving contraband. 13 : Visitation in the SHU, 14 though. So -- 15 MR. : In the SHU. 16 : -- this is SHU 17 visitation, the SHU officer saw the contraband, 18 and moved him to R&D dry cell. 19 : Oh okay. 20 : And moved him to medical, 21 I think, and then R&D dry cell. 22 : Okay. 23 : Does that make sense? So, 24 who would have been -? But that happened at 25 1:40. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 Yes. So, that happened -. : So, the visitation at 1:40, we just know by 3:15, at least, he was put into R&D dry cell. : That should have been control number two. And who was in that position at that time? : This is, it says on the 9th. All right. So, was the one who was supposed to make sure that : No, it would have -. You said 2:00? Okay. I don't know what this is. 2:00 to 8:00. MR. _: Mm-hmm. : 6:00 to 14. Wait a minute. Control number two. It should have been -. Well, who's supposed to be there? Because this is what -. Could you -? MR. : All right. : Okay. You said by, in between times -- It looks like 1:00 -- EFTA00113305 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 : -- of 3:00 -. -- 1:40 -- 1:40. -- was when it happened. But then, he was placed - we know, at least - in R&D, according to the lieutenant's log, at 3:15, he was placed into R&D dry cell. So, I don't know. Well, if they found him with some kind of thing on him, and he went to -. Would he have to o to medical first? Mm-hmm. : So, he would go to SHU. Would he then go to medical? And then, from medical to R&D dry cell? Yeah. : In order for him to pass somethin ? I : Yeah. Is that how it would work? : It's supposed to work like that. It's supposed to -. Normally, we take an inmate straight to -. If our scanner is working, we're supposed to take them there first. Co put him through the scanner. Once 94 1 he goes through the scanner, now he's supposed 2 to go an available dry cell. Now, I don't know 3 if they used R&D, or if they used our HA unit. 4 HA unit is normally where we put everybody for 5 dry cell. 6 : Yeah, no, this was an odd 7 thing that they put him in R&D, right? 8 : And then, you know, if 9 sometimes they choose to put him down in HA. 10 Sometimes they choose to put him in R&D. 11 Sometimes they choose to go straight to Nine 12 South. If there's available - Nine South - if 13 there's an available, empty cell. 14 : Okay. 15 : They will take him straight to 16 Nine South, and put an officer in front of his 17 door to watch him. 18 : Okay. 19 : If there's an available cell. 20 Because normally, sometimes, most of the time, 21 Nine South gets a little crowded. So, we don't 22 have an available cell to put an inmate that's 23 supposed to be on dry cell. So, they have to 24 figure it out, where are they going to put him, 25 either in R&D, put an officer, or HA, put an 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 officer. But in this case, though, if at 1:40, it's found out, and then, by at least 3:15, he's moved to R&D. Who should have - at 3:15 - coded him into R&D, and out of SHU? : Okay. Control number two. It should have been in between (Phonetic Sp. *01:16:44) or All right. So then, if it was at 3:15, I'm assuming it would have been because -- : Mm-hmm. -- that's from -. He started at 2:00. Correct? Yes. that you don't even think : All lit. But you said worked that day. You said it was somebody else? : I'm not too sure. I can't remember. All right. And this is the position that would have been for Fernandez. So, I'm circling his name and writing Fernandez movement. MR. : You said you're not sure if 96 1 worked that day? 2 : I'm not too sure. 3 : Okay. Yeah. And 4 was listed on the 4:00 p.m. count. 5 : Okay. 6 : So, that would have been 7 that should have done it? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. Okay. What about 10 with Reyes? And if the SHU knew that Reyes left 11 WAB, but they believed he went to court, rather 12 than transferred. So, if they know he's WAB, 13 and he went to court, is there an argument to 14 be had that they thought he could possibly have 15 returned that day? 16 : To be honest with you, I don't 17 know. Since I don't -- 18 : If someone's listed -. 19 rsince I don't work Nine 20 South -- 21 : Okay. 22 rand I try to - I tend to 23 stay out of their business. 24 : But when there's a court 25 list and it shows WAB next to someone's name -- EFTA00113306 97 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : -- or then, I shouldn't 3 say court list. What's it called? Because you 4 just corrected us. Not the court list, but 5 that would be -- 6 MR. The call out. 7 -- the call out list. 8 Yes. 9 So, if the call out list 10 says, "Reyes, WAB" should they know that he's 11 not goin to return? 12 : Yes. 13 Okay. So, would there be 14 anything for someone in, like, control or 15 internal to do, at around the 4:00 count, to 16 verify that he is actually, in fact, not 17 returiiiiiiii 18 : No. Since Nine South is the 19 only small entity, we try not to - you know - 20 like, it can be -. You know, we can drop the 21 ball. Like, if I'm control, you are internal, 22 we can drop the ball because we assume that 23 Nine South already know. Because they are, you 24 know, those men and women that work up there, 25 they already know. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 98 And why would they alreaiiiiiiii : Because they work there. But, like I said earlier, a lot of, you know, a lot of staff have left at that time, either they quit, either they retired, either that they, you know, found another job. So, we was lackin a lot of staff during this time. Okay. : So, everybody is on overtime. If you look, I was on overtime. So, when a lot of people was on overtime. Now, like I said, maybe - you know what I'm saying? - maybe, if I was more diligent in Nine South business, maybe I could have said something. But I wasn't, since I wasn't working that post. I didn't think nothin of it. : But if it says WAB on the call out list, didn't you just say? So, if the people that got Reyes at 8:00 in the morning, produced him to R&D, or whomever that he goes to when it says WAB, wouldn't the assumption be that he's not actually returning? Yes. : Was that the case? 99 1 : If it says WAB, he's definitely 2 not comin back. 3 : And that should be known? 4 Definitely not coming back. So, if someone 5 says, WAB, if it said WAB, but we believed he 6 was going to court, and there's always the 7 possibility that he could return. Is that an 8 argument to be had? If it says WAB. 9 : I mean, once in a blue, yes. 10 Some of them do come back. Either one thing or 11 another, maybe they was very disrespectful to 12 the Marshal, or maybe the court said never 13 mind. Sometimes, it does happen. 14 : But that's, like, is that 15 more of like, a one in a thousand type chance? 16 : I uess. 17 Yeah. So, it's -- 18 I'm not too -. 19 -- extremely unlikely, if 20 it saiiiiiiithat he's coming back. Correct? 21 : Yeah. But it does happen. 22 Some people, you let go, I thought you was 23 leavin . Oh something happened. 24 : Okay. Now, I've heard 25 that something happens if it has to do with, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 like, a transport, if something was cancelled. Yeah. : But if by, for instance, he leaves at 8:00, he's WAB, by 2:00 p.m., if he's not back, that means, certainly, he got off on the transport. Does that mean, basically, by 2:00 p.m., if somebody that's WAB is not back they're certainly not returning? Yes. : Okay. And in this case, if someone is WAB, would control have any - or internal - have anything to do with, at the 4:00 p.m. count, contacting SHU, to make sure that they're aware that that WAB person, in fact, isn't coming back? : No. : No? Okay. Okay. Do you know about any other -. I know we went over these counts that, you know, we said we believe are incorrect because the numbers weren't right, that the count slips. Are you aware of any other count slips that were incorrect around this time period? Not to my knowledge. : No? Are you aware of EFTA00113307 101 1 rounds not being conducted and being falsified 2 prior to Au ust 10th, 2019? 3 : Not to my knowledge. 4 : Had you heard that the 5 rounds were not being conducted in the SHU on 6 August 9th and 10th of 2019? 7 : Not to my knowledge. 8 : Even after the fact, you 9 hadn't heard that, in the news and all that? 10 : The news was saying a lot of 11 bad thin s. 12 : And what about when you 13 said you go get beers with your buddies, even 14 hear it, don't you? Didn't you guys talk about 15 the fact that the rounds and the counts weren't 16 conducted in the SHU? 17 : Whenever I get stuck to work 18 Nine South, those cameras might not see what 19 the inmates do, but I know they definitely see 20 what I do. 21 : Okay. 22 : Oh, my fault. I apologize. 23 The cameras definitely don't see what the 24 inmates do. But they sure see everything I do. 25 So, when I'm up there, I try to stay on point, 102 1 because I need m 'ob. 2 : Sure. So, point being, 3 though, do you know if people were falsifying 4 rounds? 5 : Not to my knowledge. 6 : No? Okay. Are you aware 7 - speaking of cameras - if the MCC SHU cameras 8 were workin on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 9 : I believe they was working. 10 : You believe they were 11 workiS 12 : I believe all the cameras were 13 workin back then. 14 : All right. And then, had 15 you heard that they weren't working? 16 : Through the media. When they 17 was talkin about the cameras didn't work. 18 : And what is your 19 understanding of -? Do you believe that they 20 were working, and if we're not able to get 21 recordings, do you believe that someone deleted 22 those recordings? 23 : No. I don't think anybody that 24 bold. 25 No? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. 103 : Have you heard anything about deletion of cameras, or people knocking cameras offline, or -- No. -- them not recording? No. : No? : Because we don't have -. We don't have access as correctional staff, to -. : Who would have access, to be able to knock cameras offline? Or stop them I uess the -- -- from recording. -- I guess the higher ups. So, I'm not too sure. Would the Comtech? : I mean, yeah, a possibility. : Okay. But you're not reall sure? : I'm not really sure, sir. Okay. Do you know if Epstein was in his assigned cell on August 10th, 2019? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 104 : I believe so. But I don't work Nine .2mIlls_a2_1_2.n't tell you. Had you heard anything about him not being in his assigned cell? : No. : No. Do you know if cell searches were being conducted in the SHU in July and Au ust of 2019? : They should have been. Every day, vie have to do -. If you work in any post, Nine South to any housing units, you're supposed to conduct five shakedowns per shift. : Is that five shakedowns, though, during the day and night watch? : Dav watch. But not -- Evening watch. But not morning watch, right? Not morning watch. : So, you're supposed to do five durin the day, and five during the night? : Yeah. And do you know if they were being conducted in the SHU? EFTA00113308 105 106 1 2 3 4 5 *01:24:48). 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 that. 24 25 other's assisting with taking Epstein's life? : To my knowledge -- : Yeah. But you don't know -- I believe (Indiscernible -- anything about them not being conducted, though? : No. Okay. When you worked in the SHU. here they conducted? Yes. : Okay. Do you have knowledge of Epstein placing a telephone call in the SHU on August 9th, 2019? No. No? : I'm not sure about that. : Had you heard that one? : No sir. : No. What do you know about someone else taking Epstein's life? : I don't know nothing about What do you know about 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : I don't know nothing about that. Did Epstein take his own life? I believe so. : And did Epstein act alone in takino his own life? : I believe so. Did you have any involvement with Epstein's death? No sir. : What would have prevented Epstein's death? : I'm really not too sure. Once an inmate or a person has their mind made up, they don't tell you when they're going to do it. They just do it. This individual, I don't know. I know that he was facing a serious crime. I don't know if he wanted to do that on his own, or he was protecting somebody. I don't know. But to try to prevent, I think we kind of tried everything that we wanted, but he would have robabl have succeeded somehow. : Okay. What actions should have been taken to prevent his death? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 107 : I think they should have kept him in suicide watch, and had somebody watch him at all times. But I mean -- IC What about -- -- I'm just a GS-8. -- what about ensuring that he had his cell mate? Oh, that, too. : What about ensuring that rounds and counts were being conducted? Yes. : Anything else? : That's it. : All right. And what about, like, placing him on, like, Ten South, or G-tier? : Yeah. On G-tier, G-tier is pretty spacious. But if he wanted, you know, to hurt himself, he could have did it there, too. But does -- : He could have did it on Ten South too. -- yeah. But they're more closely monitored than the SHU. Correct? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 108 Yes. : Okay. What are some of the systematic problems inside the MCC - and specifically, the SHU - that allowed for Epstein to die? Lack of staff. : Lack of staff. Is it all Lack of staff. -- okay. : Yeah. And how could I -? Right now, we have a problem with lack of staff. The staff that they are hiring right now is fall on the money. This job is not the first job that they apply for. It's just the first job that called. So, with that knowledge, everybody needs a job. You need to pay your bills, right? You need to pay food. You know, you need to take care of your family, your wife, your kids, your husband, et cetera. So, when this job calls, they go. When you hear about the feds, you'd be, like, wow, the feds called me for an interview. This is a top-paying job. Everybody believes it. It's not the top of the food chain. Especially not now. In New York, EFTA00113309 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 the rent is going up. Everything is going up. So, this job is really just another job. It's not a career anymore. It's a job. You pay -. It's a job. So, a lot of the men and women, they come, they see the headaches that we go through. And they look at their paycheck, and then, they look at the headaches that they go through at home. Because when you get your mandated every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, at first, your wife or your husband believes it's good. The money is coming in. But after a couple of months, your wife or your husband will start believing that you are cheating. Because, like, this, you know, we're law enforcement. All law enforcement cheat, right? What people believe. So, a lot of individuals that I talk to, they said they're not losing their wife, so they quit. Or they moved on. Found another job for the headache. So, we always going to lose staff because the headache don't outweigh the reward. squeeze? : Juice isn't worth the Yeah. And if they want to fix 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 the place, they're going to have to (Indiscernible *01:29:23) the money a little bit, ma be vie et better quality. : Have things improved since Au ust of 2019? : No. You don't think they have? No. : That's a shame to hear. Well, speaking of, so that we can lock down this Fernandez thing, just to leave, this is - I was just explaining it to you - but this is actually -. So, here, is actual report. It's from He was the OIC SHU, the SHU OIC at the time. And it says that the incident occurred on 8/9/2019, at 1:40 p.m. "On August 9th, 2019 at approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS IIIIIIII, while assigned as the Special Housing Unit officer, proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting room, as I walked towards the door, I observed, through the visiting room door, inmate Fernandez attempting to garb an unknown item from his visitor. Once I made Fernandez reach 111 1 to grab the item, I called the door and called 2 for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the 3 visiting room, I gave inmate Fernandez a direct 4 order to walk -". Gave him an out of -. "To 5 walk out of the visiting room, to conduct a 6 visual search. Inmate Fernandez compiled," Oh, 7 "Complied, and a visual search was conducted. 8 The Operations Lieutenant was contacted, and 9 inmate Fernandez was removed from the unit." 10 So, with this knowledge, when should have he 11 been of the SHU? 12 : He should have been - right 13 now, since he's in SHU - they probably believed 14 that he was coming back to SHU. Because where 15 is the oin to ut him at? You know -- 16 : Yeah. 17 : -- it says, Seven North. So, 18 basically, he's going to go to SHU soon. So, 19 they probably took him downstairs. It says 20 (Indiscernible *01:31:18). It says, the unit 21 says Seven North, and you said he was -- 22 : Yeah. 23 M. —Nine South visitation room. 24 Oh, okay, okay. Now, I see it. Where is that? 25 Yeah. So, Nine South probably means that he 112 1 keeps coming back to SHU. Because that's where 2 you place all our inmates that has an incident 3 report. 4 : Yeah. 5 : So, like this, he's coming back 6 to Nine South Indiscernible *01:31:40). 7 : Okay. So then, when we 8 see this, inmate Fernandez at 3:15 p.m., that 9 same da laced on dry cell from ZA. 10 : Yeah. 11 Is that the time he 12 should have been -? 13 : Yes. 14 : All right. So, at 3:15 15 is the time that he should have actually been, 16 then, laced - keyed out of the SHU? 17 : Yes. 18 Okay. 19 : Unless they was putting him on 20 dry cell in SHU. 21 Well, this one says dry 22 cell from ZA. 23 : Yeah. 24 : So, this is when he was - 25 . So, here. So, I mean -. EFTA00113310 113 1 MR. : So, if you just look at this 2 (Indiscernible *01:32:12). He was already in 3 the SHU. 4 : Yeah. He was already in the 5 SHU. 6 And so, this one, we've 7 got to - we didn't highlight that. But so, 8 this one, IM Fernandez on dry cell, with staff 9 watch and R&D. 3:15 p.m. That's when it 10 happened. 11 : Yeah. 12 : So, at 3:15 p.m. then, 13 I'm assuming, not 1:40, but at 3:15 p.m., 14 that's when he should have been keyed out of 15 the SHU and keyed into R&D? 16 : Yes. 17 All right. And that goes 18 back to, would have been the person in 19 control? 20 : Yeah. 21 : All right. Would it -- 22 : But if they believed -- 23 : -- if he's going from 24 medical, though -- 25 : -- but if they believed that he 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 was going back to SHU, yes. They could have just left him in SHU. Because they believed he was comm a back. Well, that's at 1:40. Yeah. When he goes down to medical. If he's at medical -- : Oh, we don't come out -- -- and then, from -- -- from medical. -- what's that? : Medical is just -. Medical is just a, it was, like, okay, I call you up to come pick up an inmate, from my housing unit, you take him down to medical. I'm not going to go on the con uter and take him off my unit. : Yeah. So, what I'm asking, though, is, if he went -. In this instance, if he did that, would they first take him to medical, and then place him on dry cell in the R&D? : No. The PA will probably come up to talk to him, but otherwise, they wouldn't take him down to medical. Okay. And so, would this 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 115 notification been made on the radio for control to even know at 3:15 p.m. Fernandez was being placed from ZA to R&D? : No. : So, control may not have even known to key him out. Correct? Yes. So, it doesn't even mean that, necessarily, would have contacted and told. Whose responsibility would it have been to key him out, at that point? If a lieutenant -- Now, if -- -- ordered this? -- if, if a lieutenant ordered this, Nine South should have called control and said, hey, I got an inmate taken off my count. Because --ri Okay. they should know before anybod else know. : So, even if the OIC told - or the SHU - told the Ops Lieutenant, and the Ops Lieutenant was aware, the SHU should have still contacted control and told them? 116 1 : Yes. 2 : All right. So, it 3 wouldn't be the Ops Lieutenants? 4 : No. 5 It should be the SHU? 6 : SHU. 7 And specifically, should 8 it have been, if knows that he's going 9 onto dry cell, should have been that 10 individual or anyone in the SHU? 11 IIIIIIII: Now, , if he were 12 assigned, where he says assigned as not - SHU 13 house unit officer - yeah. He's called control 14 and be like o -- 15 : So, should have 16 done that? 17 I got one. 18 : Okay. 19 : I got one that's coming off the 20 count. 21 : Okay. You mind just 22 initialiniiiiiidating that? 23 MR. : How should soon should a 24 notification have been made? 25 : During the course of the day, EFTA00113311 117 1 sometimes we have (Indiscernible *01:34:55), 2 and then, with the phone calls, you basically 3 (Indiscernible *01:34:55). You have to have an 4 incident i iiprt (Indiscernible *01:35:02). 5 MR. What's (Indiscernible 6 *01:35:15)? How long do they normally have to 7 make that phone call? They'll know, hey, 8 listen, (Indiscernible *01:35:21)? What do you 9 know about (Indiscernible *01:35:26)? 10 Mil (Indiscernible *01:35:29). 11 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:35:31) at 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 3:15. : Yeah. MR. : When -. : Well, it happened at 1:40. MR. : 1:40. 1:40. : And placed on dry cell MR. : But that -- -- 21 • -- (Indiscernible 22 *01:35:38 23 MR. 'I'll': -- according to that memo, it 24 looks like that he was placed in dry cell at 25 3:15. Before what time should that phone call 118 1 have came? 2 It should have came, you know, 3 an hour after -. Depending on how Nine South 4 is moving. Because Nine South is - Nine South 5 is lacking staff. We won't have a 6 (Indiscernible *01:35:58) of the full staff. 7 So, that means, if they're doing visitations, 8 or if they're doing showers, if they're doing 9 medical, if they're doing psychology, they're 10 doing all library cards and all this other 11 crap, the are Yeah. 12 MR. : But here's the thing, you 13 said, the fourth count -- 14 MS Yeah. 15 MR. : -- there's a 4:00 p.m. count 16 coming up, should they have made notification 17 for tiiiiiiii? 18 : Yes. And should have made it 19 way before, before they forgot, because you 20 can't - the longer you take, the more you could 21 forget. 22 MR. : Should they have made 23 notification before the 10:00 p.m. count? 24 : Yes. They should have made 25 notification a half an hour to - oh, no, a half 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 an hour to ten minutes after the inmate (Indiscernible *01:36:35). Just not immediately, correct? : Yeah. Because the longer it takes, the busier you are, you forget something. Maybe you forget your keys. You know? : We were informed that, once it's happening, the movement, that notification should be made. Moving inmate from SHU to R&D dry cell. : Yeah. : Isn't that correct? : Yes. : It's only, it shouldn't occur. It should happen immediately. Definitely not more than 15 to 30 minutes later. Correct? Yes. : Okay. MR. : Now, if the SHU staff at 4:00 p.m. did the count, as they were supposed to, would they have realized the fact that there was an inmate missing? 120 1 ME ' Yes. 2 MR. : If they did the 10:00 p.m. 3 count, as they were supposed to, would they 4 have realized there was an inmate missing? S Il% Yes. 6 MR. : Now, I don't know if -. I 7 have somethin se arate, all together. 8 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 9 Please. iiiiiist searching. 10 MR. : As being control, right? Is 11 there video monitors for different units? Yes. MR. : Was there a monitor for the SHU? : Yes. But there's a small -. There's a camera that's way up on the wall. MR. : Is it, like, a corner -- Yes. MR. : -- angle? It's a corner angle. MR. : Let me look, if I had, like, a picture of it. I don't have a picture of that. But -. I may. But you can start asking your questions about it, though. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2S EFTA00113312 121 1 MR. : When they do, when you're in 2 control, right, and they're calling you, like, 3 different units are calling you with the count 4 numbers, do you look up to see if they're 5 actuaiiiiiiiig the counts? 6 : Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. 7 Because we have work that we have to do, too. 8 Now, the person that's taking the phone calls, 9 that's what you're doing. You're taking the 10 phone calls, verifying the count with the El. 11 The person that's sitting next to you, that's 12 in control with me, he or she may be doing 13 their paperwork, because there's paperwork to 14 be done. We have to count keys. We have to 15 count radios. We have to do all the equipment 16 inside the control center. So, if I'm doing 17 count, that person may be doing the equipment 18 checks. And or popping doors. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you recall looking 20 up at the camera that night, to see if they 21 were actuall doing the counts that night? 22 : I can't really recall because I 23 was helping out with the count, too. Different 24 units. 25 MR. : Do you recall, at any point, 122 1 looking up - not just for that night, different 2 nights - looking up and looking at the camera, 3 and looking at the C.O.s and realizing that, 4 hey, listen, they're giving me the count, but I 5 know iiiiiiiien't done the count? 6 : No. I'm not -. I mean, we 7 relied on trust. I mean, this is a part of 8 your job function. Your major job function. 9 So, we believe that you should have had to have 10 done the count, because Nine South has two 11 officers. So, they count themselves. Any unit 12 that has two officers, they count themselves. 13 Everybody else, they're going to need backup 14 because there's only one officer per unit. 15 MR. : Have you ever heard of counts 16 and rounds not being done at the MCC? 17 : I mean, you know, you heard the 18 rumors from the news. 19 MR. : From the what? 20 From the news. 21 MR. : Other than this incident, 22 have you heard any rumors of any C.O.s saying, 23 hey, listen, I'm too tired, I'm not doing the 24 counts, or I'm not doing the rounds, or one of 25 them might be, they're just not doing the 1 counts or the rounds? 2 3 that. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 123 : No, no, no. I haven't heard MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s pre-filling the rounds and the count sheets? Meaning, they come on shift, they fill out the forms, keep it, and sign at the, you know, initial it, fill it all out, and just pass it on. MR. No. : When the time comes. No. MR. : You never heard of any C.O.s doing an like that? : No. Because I definitely don't do that. MR. : That's it for now. : Anything we're missing? : You asked me everything -- : Yeah, yeah, yeah. -- and the kitchen sink. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. It's all -. Can we just ask you, please, if you can remember anything more about the 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. count, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 124 specifically if there were any conversations that were had with either the Ops Lieutenant, or the SHU, about, like, ghost counting, or about when you wrote in - if it was, in fact, you, who wrote on those two count slips - or anything at all, that you might help, for us, to clear u' What was done -- : Mm-hmm. -- and when it was done. Okay. : Because again, in our mind, the count slips are inaccurate. You were going based upon what was said on the, you know, on the El. And their count slips were matching that El. So, for me, I'm still very confused on when that 9S+1 on the R&D, and when the plus one on the ZA count slips were actually done. I know you're saying that you believe that they were done at the time of the 10:00 p.m. count, but being that it doesn't look like it was appeared to have been caught until after the - or during - the 12:00 a.m. count, I'm just still not convinced of that. So -- : Right. EFTA00113313 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 125 -- because to you, you said you believe it was done at the 10:00 p.m., you don't know for a fact. Correct? No not for a fact. : You just, being that it shows on the 10:00 p.m., but you don't think that you would have gone back to an earlier count -- No. -- is what you're saying? Even if someone was, it was caught during a count thatyou still had the paperwork to? l= No. : Do you know what I'm saying? Like, even if there's one count later, which there's only two hours after that count, you don't think you would have, then, gone back to that count that you did just two hours later and ut that plus one on there? No. : No? All right. So, you're - to you, though - you're pretty positive you would have done it during the 10:00Iiiiiiii : Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 And do you believe that, then, would be why the Ops Lieutenant would have caught the fact that there is one person assigned to the SHU, who was actually in R&D, and would have corrected the El? : Yes. I believe, I believe that if there was a little bit more communication, we probabl would have caught it a lot faster. : Well, it sounds like you knew it. I'm just - now, I'm just super confused if that's when it happened, why the El, you have a count slip that doesn't say on the El. : Like I said, if, you know, if I'm correct I should have changed it. You should have changed the El? regardless. That's why that one. : I should have just changed it, : Okay. : Without doing the ghosting. : Okay. : I should have changed it. I said I think I dropped the ball on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 127 All right. So, you believe it was a ghost count? Yeah. : And you believe, though, in order for it to be a ghost count, an Ops Lieutenant would have said it's okay to ghost count? Yeah. And the only Ops Lieutenant that was on there was , and she didn't make the change until the 12:00 .m. count. Yeah. : And do you see where that doesn't add up? Mm-hmm. Yeah. : So, in thinking about that, is there anything you think that maybe you're a little bit inaccurate on? : I mean, if, you know, like, I'm just wish that I, like, caught it and changed it a lot earlier. You know, I should have just changed it. : Yeah. And again, my main thing is, I think you're beating yourself up on 128 1 that because I don't think that there was 2 anything for you to catch. You didn't know. 3 But I could be mistaken on that, and that's 4 where I'm just really hoping that, if you can 5 think about it, and you can kind of put 6 together, oh, yeah, that is what happened, or, 7 okay, that's what - that's how it transpired, 8 that's how it went down. If you could just 9 contact us, myself or Lyeson, and just let us 10 know. That would be greatly -. We would so 11 appreciate it because when we do these things, 12 we got to be accurate. The highest levels of 13 the government are going to get - or look at 14 these things. And being that these counts are 15 off, that's kind of a big thing. 16 : Yeah. 17 : Especially with regard 18 to, you know, with the night before, and the 19 mornin of Epstein -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- being found. And so, 22 we just want to make sure that we're being as 23 accurate as possible. I'll give you a card so 24 that, if you can think of anything, you can 25 certainly contact me. And we can modify EFTA00113314 129 130 1 whatever it is that needs to be modified, or do CERTIFICATE 2 a supplemental. All right. Any questions for I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 us? represent an accurate transcript of the 4 : No sir. electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 No? All right. Well, we before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 can't thank ou enough for your time. Inspector General in the matter of: 7 : Mm-hmm. Thank you, too. 8 All right. Interview of 9 : And I hope I helped a little 10 bit. 11 MR. : Yes. 12 Yes. Thank you, sir. Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber 13 Appreciate you. God Bless you. I'm going to 14 turn the recorder off now. It is certainly 15 4:19 p.m. This is , Senior 16 Special Agent with DOJ/OIG, and I'm turning off 17 the recorder. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113315