EFTA00113316.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 AUGUST 5, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00113316 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113317 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I am a senior 3 special agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 MR. : Thank you. 8 MR. : All right. And this 9 interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 10 employee - is it 11 MR. 12 MR. -• 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. -: , is being conducted 15 as part of an official U.S. Department of 16 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 17 (DOJ/OIG) investigation. Today's date is 18 August 5th, 2021, and the time is 2:34 p.m. 19 This interview is being conducted at the 20 Metropolitan Correctional Center, or the MCC, 21 located in New York, New York. Also present is 22 DOJ/OIG Special Agent This 23 interview will be recorded by me, SSA Dennis 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell your last EFTA00113318 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior 2 Special Agent 3 4 MR. : This is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 5 . And these are my 6 credentials. 7 MR. : Thank you, sir. 8 MR. : And can you say and spell 9 your name for the record, and your position 10 title? 11 MR. : Okay. Senior officer 12 specialist. First name . Last name 13 14 MR. : That's fine. We'll ask 15 you more later. And how do you spell your 16 first name? 17 MR. 18 MR. : Okay. Thank you, sir. 19 This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into 20 the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the 21 surrounding circumstances, and you are being 22 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 23 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 24 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00113319 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 2 a form that we give to our voluntary - or to 3 our employees who are requested to provide 4 information on a voluntary basis. It says, 5 United States Department of Justice, Office of 6 the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances 7 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 8 a Voluntary Basis. "You are being asked to 9 provide information as part of an investigation 10 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 11 General. This investigation is being conducted 12 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 13 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 14 performance failure and security failure. This 15 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 16 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 17 action will be taken against you if do not 18 choose to answer our questions. Any statements 19 you furnish may be used as evidence in any 20 future criminal proceedings, or agency 21 disciplinary proceedings, or both." And 22 there's a waiver section. It says, "I 23 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 24 above and I am willing to make a statement and 25 answer questions. No promises or threats have EFTA00113320 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 2 any kind has been used against me." So, you 3 can take a look, if you'd like, at this form. 4 And if you agree with it and understand it, you 5 can sign where it says employee signature, and 6 then print your name where it says employee's 7 name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) 8 if you'd like. 9 MR. : Okay. Okay. You said sign my 10 name right here? 11 MR. : Yeah. Where it says 12 employee signature. And then, you can just 13 print your name underneath, where it says 14 Okay. 15 MR. : My full name? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Yes, please. Thank you, 18 sir. Okay. And I am signing where it says 19 signature of Office of the Inspector General 20 Special Agent, and I am printing my name below. 21 Again, this is The date is 22 8/5/21, and the time is 23 MR. : 2:38. 24 MR. : -- 2 -- 25 MR. : 38. EFTA00113321 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : :38 p.m. Place, at 2 MCC, New York. Special Agent , can you 3 please sign as the witness? 4 MR. : This is Agent signing 5 as the witness. 6 MR. : Did you understand that 7 form? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. You understand 10 this is voluntary. You can choose to leave at 11 any time. Thank you. Before starting, I'd 12 like to place you under oath. Mr. , could 13 you please raise your right hand? Do you swear 14 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth 15 during this interview? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. Please 18 let me know if you don't understand any 19 questions. I will repeat it or try to rephrase 20 it. Okay? What is your current home address? 21 MR. 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:26). 23 24 MR. : Thank you, sir. And 25 that's in Newark? EFTA00113322 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 MR. : Okay. And what is your 3 date of birth? 4 MR. 5 MR. : And what is your SSN? 6 MR. : The last four or the whole 7 thing? 8 MR. : The last four is fine. 9 MR. 10 MR. : And what is your current 11 cell phone number? 12 MR. 13 MR. : And what is your highest 14 level of education? 15 MR. : High school. 16 MR. : High school. And where 17 did you go to high school? 18 MR. : Malcom X Shabazz. Newark, New 19 Jersey. 20 MR. : And when did you graduate 21 high school? 22 MR. : 1993. 23 MR. : Thank you, sir. And what 24 did you do prior to working for the BOP? 25 MR. : I used to work for private EFTA00113323 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 corrections, CCA. Corrections Corporation of 2 America. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. Now, do 4 you have any military service? 5 MR. : No, sir. 6 MR. : And how long have you 7 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 8 MR. : February will be 20 years. 9 MR. : Okay. Great. Do you 10 remember your entry on duty date? 11 MR. : February 10th of 2002. 12 MR. : Thank you, sir. And do 13 you recall when you graduated from BOP 14 training, around, like, the - even the year? 15 MR. : I can't. I don't remember. 16 MR. : Would it have been right 17 away, in 2002? 18 MR. : No. It was a little later. 19 MR. : But you've attended it? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : And that is correctional 22 officer training down at FLETC? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. Great. And what 25 is your current position with the BOP? EFTA00113324 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I'm a senior officer 2 specialist. 3 MR. : And what does that 4 position entail? 5 MR. : It just means that, you know, 6 I've worked every post, and I've been on -. 7 Worked about every post, and I'm a little bit 8 more trained than the people that's now getting 9 hired. 10 MR. : Okay. So, and it's in 11 the custody side of the house? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. Great. What is 14 your grade level? 15 MR. : My grade level is eight, step 16 ten. 17 MR. : Great. Thank you. And 18 are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Was he housed within the 21 MCC in July and August of 2019? 22 MR. : I believe so, but I'm not too 23 sure. Because Epstein wasn't a big deal to me. 24 MR. : Okay. And what do you 25 mean by that? EFTA00113325 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : Meaning that, he's just - he 2 was somebody that was being processed through 3 the federal government for committing a crime. 4 MR. : Okay. What about after 5 the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news 6 attention and everything that had been placed 7 upon it, did you think it became a little bit 8 bigger of a deal then? 9 MR. : I guess it was a big deal of 10 how, you know, the job was treating them. You 11 know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- 12 profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad 13 been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide 14 watch. 15 MR. : Okay. And you're saying 16 that based upon the fact that he killed 17 himself? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. And we can get 20 into that more later. What was your position 21 at the MCC in July and August of 2019? 22 MR. : If I remember correctly, I was 23 internal number two. 24 MR. : Okay. I'm sorry. Were 25 you a senior officer specialist -- EFTA00113326 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- as well? Perfect. And 3 they're the same duties and responsibilities 4 that you just described? Basically, like, 5 very knowledgeable correctional officer? 6 MR. : Yes. Yes. About that. Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. Did you have any 8 interactions or involvement with Epstein during 9 his stay at MCC? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : No. Did you even 12 communicate with him at all? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Did you see him at all? 15 MR. : I seen him once. I think he 16 was down on suicide watch. One time. 17 MR. : Okay. And were you 18 working at suicide watch? 19 MR. : No. I think I was activities, 20 maybe. So, I had to go through, sign the 21 logbook, maybe. I don't -. I can't remember 22 what post, or what post I was on, or maybe I 23 was internal. You know, and, you know, we have 24 a shortage of staff. So, I wear many different 25 titles during the day. EFTA00113327 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 MR. : Sure. 2 MR. : So, I can't really tell you how 3 I saw him that particular day, but I know I did 4 see him. 5 MR. : Okay. So, when he was on 6 suicide watch, you remember, you know, you have 7 acted as the activities lieutenant, though, in 8 the past? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. Great. 11 MR. : But that day, I can't remember 12 what post. 13 MR. : Sure. Do you happen to 14 remember if you worked at the MCC on August 9th 15 and 10th of 2019? The day leading up to and the 16 day he was - the day of - finding him in his 17 cell? 18 MR. : Yeah. I believe so. The day 19 of? I was certainly here. The day before? I 20 can't remember. 21 MR. : Okay. Great. Do you 22 know what you were doing that day? And I have a 23 duty agent - I have a 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : I'm going to give you EFTA00113328 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the daily -- 2 MR. : I was -. 3 MR. : -- receipt, and I'll try 4 to -. Here you go, and here is the daily 5 assignment roster for both Friday, August 9th, 6 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2019. I have 7 taken the liberty of just highlighting your 8 name next -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- position title. 11 MR. : Control one. And internal 12 number two. 13 MR. : So, on August 9th, you 14 were control number one, and then, August -. 15 MR. : No, now, which one is the day 16 of? 17 MR. : And so, we got the day 18 leading up to it will be the 9th. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And that's where it says 21 that you were -- 22 MR. : Control one. Yes. 23 MR. : -- you were control one. 24 Okay. And that says that you were control one 25 from 4:00 p.m. until midnight? EFTA00113329 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 3 the following day, it says Saturday, August 4 10th, 2019. You were internal number two, on 5 overtime, from midnight through 8:00 a.m.? 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in case 9 we ask you about anything -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- with regard to, you 12 know, either you or other people that were 13 working on that, on that day. So, as - let's 14 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 15 state that you were control number one. What 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? 17 MR. : Okay. For control number one? 18 MR. : Control number one. 19 Correct. 20 MR. : The duties entail -. 21 MR. : And specifically, we're 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to 23 midnight shift. 24 MR. : Okay. 4:00 p.m. to midnight 25 shift. Duties entail of just, you know, being EFTA00113330 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the eyes and the ears for the lieutenant. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : We reviewed the camera, and we 4 watched the cameras a little bit. We popped 5 doors. We answered phones. If anybody is 6 calling, asking about their loved ones that are 7 incarcerated here. 8 MR. : So, you're in the control 9 center, correct? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Are you one of two 12 officers in the control center? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : All right. So, what is 15 the difference between what the control number 16 one officer does, and the control number two 17 officer does? 18 MR. : Okay. Control number one 19 officer. Control number one officer actually, 20 you know, popped the doors, do all the 21 paperwork. 22 MR. : Okay. So, when you say 23 paperwork, like, if they're counts, you fill 24 out the paperwork? 25 MR. : Not the counts. That's the CNA EFTA00113331 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 officer, or the internal unit two officer. The 2 control officer, the control officers handles 3 the door, the popping of the doors, listening 4 to the radios. 5 MR. : Answer it. Okay. And 6 so, and who actually is supposed to take care 7 of the counts, then, during that time? 8 MR. : The counts are CNA. Or 9 now/internal two. 10 MR. : Okay. And what does CNA 11 stand for? 12 MR. : CNA is - what is that - Counts. 13 Oh, it's been a long time since I had to, like, 14 pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is 15 16 MR. : Is that somebody that's 17 listed on this sheet? 18 MR. : -- internal number two. 19 MR. : Oh, so, CNA is internal 20 number two? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 23 it's 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : All right. So, he EFTA00113332 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 actually would be the person that's supposed to 2 be doing the counts? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : All right. And what 5 about for, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, for 6 internal number two, from midnight through 8:00 7 a.m. What were your duties and 8 responsibilities? 9 MR. : Yes. That was me, internal 10 number two. My duties was to generate the 11 count. Generate the PPE'. Make any moves, if 12 any inmates move from one unit to the next 13 unit. Answer the phones. 14 MR. : So, when you say inmates 15 move from one unit to the next unit, do you 16 mean, like, keying them into different -- 17 MR. : Yes. Keying them into -- 18 MR. : -- so, keying them out of 19 one, and keying -- 20 MR. : -- key them out of a -- 21 MR. : -- into the other. 22 MR. : -- out of a housing unit, and 23 moving them to the next. 24 MR. : Okay. So, not the actual 25 physical movement -- EFTA00113333 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- you're talking about 3 electronically. 4 MR. : Electronical. 5 MR. : Okay. In the BOP 6 databases. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Perfect. So -. 9 MR. : And also, my duties are to 10 actually go upstairs and do the count. To help 11 out internal with the count. 12 MR. : Okay. So, not only are 13 you taking the count and filling out the 14 paperwork, but you're actually physically going 15 somewhere? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : And where are you going 18 to? 19 MR. : I have to go - at that time - I 20 had to count Nine North, and unit two. 21 MR. : Okay. And then, so, 22 know Nine South. What is Nine North? 23 MR. : Nine North is a housing unit. 24 MR. : Okay. So, just a normal, 25 regular general pop housing -- EFTA00113334 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- housing unit? Okay. 3 So, that's what you were doing in that specific 4 date? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Or is that always the 7 internal number two goes and counts Nine North? 8 MR. : Yeah. That's how they have 9 internal number two set up for their post. 10 MR. : So, always counting the 11 same housing units, every -- 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- every shift? 14 MR. : Basically, we help out 15 internal. If you was working as the internal 16 officer, and you needed my help to, you know, 17 because you know that I'm supposed to help you. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : You would say, hey, , 1 20 need you to count nine and two, or just say, 21 need you to count both sides of 11. 22 MR. : Gotcha. Okay. 23 MR. : And I'm - 24 MR. : So, you're basically the 25 EFTA00113335 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- control number - I 3 mean, is it control number one, that we're 4 talking about? 5 MR. : Control number two. 6 MR. : Control number one is 7 kind of, like, in charge 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- and then, control 10 number two 11 MR. : Control number one -- 12 MR. : -- is the assistant. 13 MR. : -- do not leave control. 14 MR. : Control number one stays 15 in there the whole time? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Control number two 18 actually is the one that -. Okay. So, the 19 person who is control number -. Control number 20 one doesn't leave? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : All right. So, you 23 wouldn't have left then on Friday, August 9th. 24 You would have been in there the whole time? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00113336 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : During your shift. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And then, you're saying 4 that on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, when you 5 were internal number two, that's when you would 6 have left your shift, and helped with the 7 counts? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. But as their 10 internal number two, you were actually taking 11 the counts and writing in the documentation? 12 MR. : I'm taking count, and also, I'm 13 going upstairs to actually physically do the 14 count. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : In two houses. 17 MR. : All right. But as 18 control number one, the day before, you weren't 19 actually supposed to be involved with the 20 counts? 21 MR. : No. The only thing I do is sic 22 there. Once you complete the count and you 23 tell me, and we have a good verbal, I announce 24 it on the radio, I log it in the logbook, and 25 then, you say, clear count. I announce it on EFTA00113337 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 the radio. Write it in the logbook. Clear 2 count. 3 MR. : Okay. And on these dates 4 - and I'm sorry to pop back and forth - but on 5 Friday, August 9th, 2019, when you were control 6 number one, who would you be primarily be 7 working with? 8 MR. : At that time, shortage of 9 staff, you could have any -. 10 MR. : I mean, on this specific 11 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : -- date. 14 MR. : You have a different partner 15 almost every day. On this specific day, I'd be 16 working with , if he was in 17 if he was internal number two. 18 MR. : Okay. So, the two of you 19 would be working together? 20 MR. : Yeah. But I really don't think 21 I was with that day. I think it was 22 , and then, he went home, because 23 goes home at 10:00. Because I was 24 working with , and then he went home. 25 MR. : When did he go home? EFTA00113338 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 MR. : I think he went home at 10:00. 2 MR. : At 10:00? 3 MR. : And I -- 4 MR. : So then 5 MR. : -- probably was in there by 6 myself for a few, but I can't remember. I 7 can't remember. 8 MR. : No, that makes a lot of 9 sense. We're going to go over the actual 10 counts because you actually took the count at 11 10:00 p.m. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, that makes sense. 14 So, was he supposed to go home, or he had to go 15 home -? 16 MR. : Yes. He's supposed to go home. 17 MR. : Okay. So, at the 10:00 18 p.m. count, then, as control number one, you 19 actually take it -? 20 MR. : Yeah. Like, when you're in 21 there by yourself, and there's a shortage of 22 staff, you got to play both roles. 23 MR. : Okay. At 10:00 p.m., 24 though, was there supposed to be two people in 25 there? EFTA00113339 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. 2 MR. : So, that's what I mean. 3 So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only 4 until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the 5 count happens after the person - control number 6 two - leaves. Right? 7 MR. : Yes. So, control number two is 8 supposed to print up everything, and since he's 9 off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork 10 that he generated, and do the count for him. 11 MR. : Okay. So, control number 12 one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. 13 count. Correct? 14 MR. : Control number one is not 15 responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if 16 you are in there by yourself, now that's your 17 second job. 18 MR. : Okay. So, who is 19 responsible for it, then? 20 MR. : Whoever is supposed to be 21 posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It's two 22 different. Like, see here, we have a lot of 23 job titles that kind of, like, they took from 24 us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is 25 supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever EFTA00113340 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 time control goes in. At this time, when he 2 was on eights, when he was on eights, every 3 shift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. My fault. 4 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 to 12:00, and then, 12:00 to 5 8:00. When CNA comes in for evening watch, 6 evening watch is 4:00 to 12:00. 4:00 to 12:00. 7 When evening watch comes in, control one comes 8 in, control two comes in. Now, somebody, you 9 know, had a big idea and said, hey, you need 10 to, you know, we need to stop generating money. 11 We need to modify the hours. So, we don't need 12 two people in control. So, they modified the 13 hours, and made control number two. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : From that time. 16 MR. : Right. So, at this 17 point, though -. 18 MR. : So, I think this is, what, 2:00 19 20 MR. : So -- 21 MR. : -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- 22 MR. : -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- 23 MR. : -- now? 24 MR. : -- Correct. So, that's 25 where I'm saying, it's, like, if they're EFTA00113341 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 leaving at 10:00 -- 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : -- and the count is being 4 conducted at 10:00, and they usually get, you 5 know, they leave usually a couple minutes 6 before, too. It sounds like, at this time, on 7 August 9th -- 8 MR. : Now, I -- 9 MR. : -- you would have been 10 the one -- 11 MR. : -- took the count. 12 MR. : -- who took the count. 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : So, that's where I just 15 want to make sure we're not getting Because 16 I'm getting confused with all this. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : So, on August 9th, 2019, 19 as control number one, you would have taken the 20 count? 21 MR. : Yes. If my name is on that 22 form, I took the count. 23 MR. : Right. And no one else 24 would have been in there with you to take that 25 count -- EFTA00113342 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- it would have just 3 been you? Okay. All right. Because I was 4 getting confused. All right. And then, as far 5 as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number 6 two, you would have also taken the count. 7 Correct? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : The 12:00 a.m., 3:00 10 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 11 MR. : Yes. If they filled that post, 12 like, my name is there, so, they filled that 13 post with overtime. So, that was me. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : So, I did that post. I worked 16 that post. I generated the El. I went 17 upstairs, conducted the count on the two 18 housing units that I have to count, and then, i 19 would go back downstairs, and finish the count 20 on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me 21 up, saying, hey, this is EN with the count of 22 14, and I would say, good count, bad count, and 23 then, cross it off the on paperwork. 24 MR. : Okay. And then, we 25 talked about who you worked with on August 9th. EFTA00113343 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 You said that, although this says , you 2 think it's somebody else? 3 MR. : I think it's somebody else. I 4 can't remember. 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. : And then -- 7 MR. : It's been a while. 8 MR. : -- on August 10th, 2019, 9 it says you were internal two, internal one was 10 - does that say 11 MR. : Yeah. He don't come in Oh, 12 well. He's internal. So, that's the person 13 that I'm helping to conduct the count with. 14 MR. : Okay. So, he is doing 15 all -- 16 MR. : He's -. 17 MR. : -- he's actually 18 physically going to the different units? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Collecting count slips, 21 and things like that. 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : And you're assisting, you 24 said -- 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00113344 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : -- with him. But you're 2 also taking the counts? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. Thank you. And 5 who did you report to on these days? Are you 6 always reporting to the Ops Lieutenant? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. So then, so on 9 August 9th, you would have been reporting to 10 , I think, both times, because 11 Cannata, although he's listed, he was relieved 12 at 10:00 p.m. back then. They were working two 13 hours before the start of their shift. So, 14 started at 10:00 p.m. So, you 15 would have been reporting to 16 then, for both shifts? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Yeah. I don't - you know - 20 don't recall (Indiscernible *00:21:20). The 21 only thing I could try to recall was what I was 22 doing because that's all I could do. 23 MR. : Well, per these 24 documents, at least, it shows 25 would have -- EFTA00113345 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 MR. : Yeah. It shows her name. 2 MR. : -- been the person you're 3 reporting to. Okay. Were you previously 4 interviewed under this investigation? 5 MR. : Yes. You know, the first time. 6 Yeah. 7 MR. : Were you interviewed more 8 than once? 9 MR. : No. Just once. 10 MR. : Okay. I'm going to just 11 review the report that was written in regard to 12 that interview. I just want you to - I'm not 13 going to provide it to you because it's written 14 on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was 15 present. So, it's our information to have. 16 So, I'll read it to you. And just, if you can 17 just stop me if there is anything in there that 18 is not accurate. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Okay? So, it says that, 21 "Mr. , Senior Officer Specialist at the 22 Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional 23 Center," and it says, yada, yada, yada. "Was 24 interviewed at the United States Attorney's 25 Office, Southern District of New York, 1 St. EFTA00113346 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for 2 the interview were FBI Special Agent 3 , FBI Task Force Officer, TFO 4 , Office of the Inspector General Special 5 Agent , and Assistant United States 6 Attorney . AUSA advised 7 that the interview was in lieu of an appearance 8 before the federal grand jury, and is 9 voluntary. SA provided with an OIG 10 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 11 to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis 12 form, which signed, and was witnessed by 13 SA's and . SA retained the 14 original, and a copy is attached in the lA 15 section of this report. After being advised of 16 the identity of the interviewing investigators, 17 and the nature of the interview, provided 18 the following information. worked for 19 Corrections Corporation of America from 20 approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started 21 working for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 22 2019, was assigned internal two on the 23 morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 24 This post helps with the count, getting 25 paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00113347 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of 2 the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not 3 require help for the count because there are 4 officers stationed in those units that do the 5 counts. During the morning watch shift of 6 August 10th, prepared the count by getting 7 the paperwork together. Officer , as the 8 control officer, took officer's phone calls, 9 receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 10 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an 11 officer calls into control with the count for a 12 particular unit, control advises if the number 13 was a good count or a bad count. Control has 14 many different functions. So, when an officer 15 calls in a count, control takes the officer's 16 word that the count was conducted. didn't 17 think that control received the verbal count 18 from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. 19 However, he could not say for sure because he 20 wasn't the one taking the calls for the counts. 21 was assisting in doing the counts in the 22 other units. signed off on the counts 23 because during that shift, he was the senior 24 ranking officer. On the morning of August 25 10th, 2019 -." Is that all correct? EFTA00113348 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Does that sound accurate. 3 MR. : Yeah. It sounds accurate. 4 MR. : All right. Because the 5 person said -. I thought she said that 6 she wasn't taking the calls. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : She wasn't taking the calls? 9 MR. : Oh, yeah. 10 MR. : So -. 11 MR. : We help each other. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. You know, we help each 14 other. So, if I'm upstairs doing a count, and 15 it takes me a little longer to come downstairs, 16 she will pick up the phone and take the counts. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Now, if I go upstairs, and the 19 counts, you know, it's a little faster, I will 20 come downstairs and I will take over the 21 paperwork, just, like, you pass me your 22 paperwork, I will let you do what you do -. 23 Let you finish doing your task, and I will take 24 it right back over where you left off. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113349 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And I will -- 2 MR. : Because, yeah -- 3 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *00:25:11). 4 MR. : I think her 5 explanation was, she helped with, like, you 6 know, everything else, you were involved with 7 the counts, taking the counts on the phone, and 8 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- and writing the 11 counts. Is that accurate, actually? 12 MR. : Yes. That's accurate. 13 MR. : So, this actually is 14 inaccurate the way it says that she took all 15 the counts, and the phone calls, then? 16 MR. : I mean, I can't really remember 17 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- what actually happened, but 20 like I said, we try to help each other out -- 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : -- because we all have -- 23 MR. : But as your 24 MR. many different jobs. 25 MR. : -- and this isn't, like, EFTA00113350 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want 2 to make sure I understand, because your 3 responsibility on August 10th was actually to 4 take the calls, and take the verbal -- 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : -- counts. Correct? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. Great. "On the 9 morning of August 10th, 2019, a body alarm went 10 off at approximately 6:33 a.m. responded 11 to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, 12 along with another officer. The Nine South 13 officers, medical, and Lieutenant were 14 already at the location. With medical 15 performing CPR. went to get a stretcher 16 and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the 17 medical unit. When emergency medical surveys 18 arrived, they started performing CPR, took 19 Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported 20 him to the hospital. followed the 21 ambulance to the hospital in another secure 22 vehicle. stayed at the hospital until he 23 was relieved from duty." 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. doesn't EFTA00113351 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 recall any specific state that Epstein was in 2 when he responded to the scene. did 3 recall that Epstein was still loose, because 4 Epstein had to be put in restraints before he 5 could be transported. However, there was no 6 movement by Epstein on his own." So, was 7 Epstein still alive? 8 MR. : Their policy states that nobody 9 passed away inside the institution. Like I 10 said, when I responded, when I got to the post, 11 in Nine South, he was already doing, performing 12 CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : They was already performing 15 CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, 16 someone needs to go get that gurney so they can 17 carry him down to medical. So -- 18 MR. : And I understand -- 19 MR. (Indiscernible *00:27:13). 20 MR. : -- that you're not able 21 to say if he was officially alive or dead, but 22 was he showing any signs of life? 23 MR. : I don't know. Once I see 24 somebody performing CPR, that means something 25 bad is going on. So -- EFTA00113352 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Did you see his eyes 2 open? 3 MR. : -- honestly, I cannot really 4 tell you what he looks like. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Because it's been so long ago. 7 And the only thing I know, they was performing 8 CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if 9 you're performing CPR, he's definitely going to 10 have to go down to medical. 11 MR. : Okay. So, you can't 12 recall - even though this was a big incident, 13 and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his 14 eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or 15 anything like that? 16 MR. : I can't recall. 17 MR. : Okay. AI acknowledged 18 that he wrote a memo about the incident. This 19 was due to the fact that when one responds to a 20 body alarm, it has to be documented. did 21 not recall any interactions with Epstein prior 22 to Epstein's death." And that's the end of 23 that. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Does all that seem EFTA00113353 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 accurate? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. I'm not going to 4 attach that. All right. So, we are going to 5 go over the count sheets that were done. Oh, 6 shoot. All right. So, these are just the 7 count sheets for the (Indiscernible *00:28:43). 8 This one is I'm going to move this over 9 here. So, this one wasn't you. I'm just 10 showing you, kind of, where I have highlighted 11 just the time, and then, I have, you know, what 12 we're particularly interested in, are going to 13 be RA and ZA. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : ZA stands for the SHU. 16 Correct? 17 MR. : Yes. Nine South. 18 MR. : The Special Housing Unit. 19 And RA stands for R&D. Correct? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : All right. Great. So, 22 here is the one for 8/9/2019. It looks like 23 this was the 5:00 a.m. count. Correct? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : All right. It shows in EFTA00113354 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, 2 it's 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for 3 the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. 4 So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One 5 in attorney conference. And one in -. Or I'm 6 sorry. 75 that were actually physically 7 present in the SHU. Correct? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : All right. And then, 10 we're going to go back, and now we'll start 11 looking at these count slips, just so we can 12 kind of get an idea. All right. On the second 13 to last page, there's a ZA, it shows 75. I 14 just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, 15 time 4:00. It says Noel and signed for 16 them. Correct? 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : And then, attorney. It 19 actually says three. A total of three, because 20 they were from other units. All right. So, 21 and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : All right. So, we've got 24 the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we 25 get to where you come in. So, this is the EFTA00113355 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 10:00 p.m. count. Correct? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : So, on 8/9/2019, this was 4 printed out at 9:33 p.m. According to this, RA 5 - or R&D - both show zero. 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : ZA - which is the SHU - 8 shows 73 on both columns. Correct? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So, is this your 11 handwriting here? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : All right. And would 14 this be you, "good verbal," 10:30 p.m.? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : All right. So, that 17 means you took the verbal count, as well? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : All right. And so, then, 20 we'll go to the - it looks like the second to 21 last page here. So, here we got R&D, 8/19, 22 10:00 p.m. Was this an ? (Phonetic Sp. 23 *00:31:11). 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : All right. And then, up EFTA00113356 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 here, we have an NS+1. And then, here, for ZA, 2 we got a 73+1, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00 p.m., it looks 3 like a and a Noel. Correct? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Would you be the ones 6 that was crossing off all of these count slips? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Do you know why these 9 were not crossed off? 10 MR. : I'm not too sure. 11 MR. : Are these nine S, plus 12 one on the R&D, and this plus one on the ZA, 13 were they your handwriting? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : So, that is your 16 handwriting 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : NS+1? 19 MR. : That nine S looks like my 20 handwriting. Yes. 21 MR. : And do you know what that 22 would have meant? 23 MR. : Okay. Sometimes, they asked us 24 to, you know, at the Sentry, it's too late to 25 punch in the body, oh, well, punch in the EFTA00113357 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 inmate into the specific housing unit because 2 the count, you know, the count down states 3 that, after, what? 8:00, after -. If the count 4 is being conducted at 12:00, you have until 5 10:45, I think, to punch in any new inmate that 6 is going to a specific unit. So, at this time, 7 I believe - because only a lieutenant could 8 tell us, to ghost count. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, basically, the numbers are 11 here, the numbers are right, but on this 12 specific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs 13 to be moved to Nine South. 14 MR. : Or that they otherwise, 15 Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Because RA, or R&D, shows 18 zero. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Correct? 21 MR. : Yeah. So, he's in -. So, 22 basically, he's in RA right now. Because 23 that's why we got that little count slip saying 24 RA plus one. Basically, he's supposed to be 25 Nine South. He's supposed to be Nine South EFTA00113358 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 plus one. But right now, he's in RA. 2 MR. : Okay. So, what is - when 3 it says -. Should this say 73+1 then, or is he 4 saying 73-1? 5 MR. : No. That's supposed - yeah - 6 it's supposed to be minus one, but I guess that 7 was an error by me. 8 MR. : All right. And you're 9 the one who wrote that? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So, and are you 12 positive you're the one who wrote this plus 13 one, and this 95+1? By looking at that. 14 MR. : Now, this right here don't look 15 like my handwriting. 16 MR. : The plus one next to the 17 73? 18 MR. : Yeah. That don't look like my 19 handwriting. But I know that Nine South, that 20 nine and S right there is mine. 21 MR. : So, he Nine South plus 22 one is yours? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. And is there a 25 reason why this wasn't crossed out? EFTA00113359 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I don't know. 2 MR. : Okay. And is there 3 anything that you can think of, why wasn't the 4 person that was in R&D, why weren't they 5 changed out of the SHU and put into R&D 6 internally, in the BOP systems? 7 MR. : I'm not too sure. 8 MR. : For El. So, by the way 9 that this is -. Do you know if you did this at 10 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you 11 remember if you did it after the fact? 12 MR. : I can't remember, sir. 13 MR. : All right. But in order 14 to do this, you're saying that an Ops 15 Lieutenant would have had to authorize that? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : So, you would have spoken 18 to that person? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : And do you remember if 21 you spoke to that person, though -? 22 MR. : No. I can't remember. 23 MR. : All right. So, the fact 24 that these people gave you a count that said 25 73, would that be an inaccurate count? If there EFTA00113360 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 was only 72 people in the unit? 2 MR. : Yes. It would be an inaccurate 3 count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my 4 name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that 5 one. 6 MR. : All right. Did you drop 7 the ball or did they? Because, look, I don't 8 want to say that you dropped the ball here, 9 because it looks like, to me, there were 73 10 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at 11 midnight, although this is 72 here, and this 12 last page, it shows ZA, they're still saying 13 73. And then, to get even a little more 14 confusing, when I look at -. When you look at 15 these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if 16 you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it 17 starts the shift at 73. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : And then, at 12:35, 20 number one, negative one SHU correction, 21 , dry cell. And if you go back to 22 this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., 23 it says, was placed on dry cell from 24 ZA. So, it looks like that was finally 25 corrected at 12:35 a.m. EFTA00113361 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, does that help jog 3 your memory at all about what happened here? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : Do you think that, being 6 that this count, this 73 matches up with this 7 count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the 8 midnight count slip still says 73, but at 9 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have 10 placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count 11 slips, after midnight? 12 MR. : Hmm. I believe so. I can't 13 really recall, but it looks like I dropped the 14 ball somewhere. 15 MR. : But how would you have 16 dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and 17 the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 18 73? 19 MR. : Because as you see right here, 20 it says 73. So, something went wrong with the 21 numbers. Something went wrong with the -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. numbers, but I know for sure 24 that we had 73 or 72 at that time, on those 25 units. EFTA00113362 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : Yeah. No, I mean, so, 2 our investigation, we believe, is showing us 3 that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. 4 However, the people in the unit were reporting 5 73, because that's what the documentation 6 showed, 73. So, they weren't actually 7 conducting their counts. They were reporting 8 what they thought the numbers should be. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, that's what we're 11 asking you, if they're reporting 73, and your 12 document shows 73, I don't see how you're 13 dropping the ball. Do you? 14 MR. : I mean, somehow, somehow, you 15 know, like, you showed me my handwriting right 16 here, on the highlight -- 17 MR. : Well, that's where a 18 portion of me wanting - believes that you 19 probably did this. So, every count slip here 20 is crossed off. Aside from these two. Why 21 would that be? 22 MR. : I don't know. 23 MR. : Do you know if these 24 count slips would have been re-created? 25 MR. : I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00113363 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 looks like handwriting. That looks 2 like Noel's handwriting. So, you know, 3 everybody has a, you know, like, a certain type 4 of handwriting. 5 MR. : Okay. Yeah, so, can you 6 think of a reason why you would cross all these 7 off, though, and not these two? 8 MR. : I'm not too sure. I can't 9 remember. 10 MR. : Have you ever seen that 11 before? 12 MR. : Sometimes, it happens. 13 MR. : And -. 14 MR. : Like, especially if count slips 15 come down late. Sometimes it could happen. 16 Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another 17 task, and I just, you know, looked at it, 18 looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, i 19 stapled everything together. That could happen 20 too. So -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- because sometimes, we have 23 another task to go do. 24 MR. : Now, at the 12:00 a.m. 25 count, on August 10th, does that mean that EFTA00113364 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 was in there taking the count 2 with you? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. So, she was in 5 there, and you said you can only put a plus one 6 on a count slip if it's approved by the Ops 7 Lieutenant. 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Does that tell you that 10 the probably, then, these plus ones probably 11 occurred after the 12:00 a.m. count? 12 MR. : No. I don't know. 13 MR. : Because you said you 14 couldn't do the -. That you couldn't put these 15 plus ones at 10:00 p.m. unless 16 took the count -- 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- at 12:00. 19 MR. : So, this had to be done before 20 10:00 p.m. Or during 21 MR. : Well, the counts had to 22 do -- 23 MR. or during 10:00 p.m. 24 MR. : -- right. The counts had 25 to be done during 10:00 p.m., but these marks EFTA00113365 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 2 73 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, 3 they didn't necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. 4 Correct? 5 MR. : Yes. These have to be done at 6 10:00 p.m. 7 MR. : But the actual Nine South 8 plus one, and this -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- plus one -- 11 MR. : Yeah. That's after. 12 MR. : -- can't be done after 13 the fact? 14 MR. : Maybe a little bit after. 15 Maybe a little bit after because the count 16 probably didn't clear until -. The count 17 didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this 18 probably was during that timeline, from either 19 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be 20 brought about or generated. 21 MR. : All right. Well, so, 22 this person who is in R&D, it's this person, 23 like I just mentioned, . This is an 24 inmate quarter history. This person wasn't 25 removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. EFTA00113366 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : When - again - she was 3 there. Ops Lieutenant So, are 4 you sure that this Nine South plus one, and 5 this plus one would have taken place at that 6 10:00 p.m. count? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Because why - if that 9 were the case - why wouldn't this have happened 10 well before the 12:00 p.m. count? Because 11 again, this R&D slip, there's not even somebody 12 there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at 13 the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person 14 have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. 15 count? Or why would have she caught it at 12:35 16 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 17 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 73 18 on their count slip? You follow what I'm 19 saying? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Does that make you think 22 about them a little bit differently? 23 MR. : 73 is what the count is 24 supposed to be? 25 MR. : No. 72 is what the count EFTA00113367 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 is supposed to be. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : So, this count -- 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- on the El is correct. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : The count slip is 8 incorrect. 9 MR. : Yes. The count slip is 10 incorrect. 11 MR. : So, at 10:00 p.m., these 12 guys are reflecting 73. Your El shows there's 13 supposed to be 73. So, you have a good count. 14 MR. : Yeah. And so -- 15 MR. : This one, they reflect 16 MR. I dropped the ball -- 17 MR. : -- 73. 18 MR. I must have dropped the ball 19 right there. 20 MR. : So, what I'm asking, 21 though, with this, you're telling me that his 22 handwriting had to have happened at the 10:00 23 p.m. count. 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Correct? And you still EFTA00113368 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 stick by that? 2 MR. : I believe so. Yeah. I believe 3 so, because why is it there? You know? And -- 4 5 MR. : My -- MR. -- (Indiscernible *00:42:26). 6 MR. own idea is it's there 7 is because you now have the person, the Ops 8 Lieutenant, at 12:00 a.m. saying, hey, go back 9 to this count slip, put these plus ones, so it 10 reflects that's where these people actually 11 were. Did that make sense? 12 MR. : Do you understand what he 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- showed you? 15 MR. : Yeah. I -- 16 MR. : About the fact that -- 17 MR. : I know what he's saying. 18 MR. : -- the actual (Indiscernible 19 *00:42:44) of that inmate missing. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Didn't happen until passed 22 midnight, because if not, the corrections would 23 have had to happen at 10:00 p.m. 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Yeah. So -- EFTA00113369 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 MR. : Now, now -. 2 MR. : -- if this was caught at 3 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn't be messed 4 up. That person would have been keyed out. 5 Right? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : But he wasn't keyed out 8 until 12:35 a.m. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : But their slip is still 11 bad -- 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- at 12:00 a.m. 14 MR. : Their slip is bad. 15 MR. : So, the count slip is 16 bad. That count number is good. That is the 17 real count number. The question is, when did 18 this happen? To me, it looks like the people in 19 the SHU were just reporting the number they 20 thought they were supposed to be giving to you. 21 73. They didn't realize that this guy wasn't 22 in there. He was actually in R&D. He was in 23 R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. 24 count is bad. The 10:00 p.m. count is bad. 25 And finally, at midnight, it's caught. So, I EFTA00113370 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 don't - the way I look at it - it's not a drop 2 the ball on you. Because you didn't know that 3 that guy wasn't in there. So, we're trying to 4 help you put the pieces together of, if this is 5 your actual handwriting, when would have that 6 happened? To me, it seems like you're relying 7 on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't 8 key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. 9 Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. 10 And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured 11 it out is because she's getting count slips. I 12 don't know when this count slip would have come 13 in, but there's a count slip for R&D at 10:00 14 p.m., and there's another count slip for R&D at 15 midnight. But like we said, this is the one 16 thing that's bad, this is bad, if that actually 17 came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in 18 R&D. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : But the thing that we're 21 trying to piece together, and what we're trying 22 to talk to, is two) because of when were these 23 things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you 24 know, notations made on these two count slips; 25 and second, why are they the only two that are EFTA00113371 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. 2 MR. : Hmm. I don't have no answer 3 for -- 4 MR. : You don't remember that - 5 6 MR. : -- for that question. 7 MR. : -- at all? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Do you remember, at all, 10 any conversations that were had with the SHU 11 that night, with regard to these counts? Or 12 this person being placed in R&D. 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Do you -. 15 MR. : I can't recall. 16 MR. : Do you remember - so, 17 we're told that the Ops Lieutenant, 18 , claims she may have had a conversation 19 with the SHU, and where this person is - do you 20 remember that at all? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : No? 23 MR. : Because if she talked to SHU, 24 wouldn't have been on the phone for that. 25 MR. : But wouldn't you have EFTA00113372 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been next to her, though, if she was in 2 control, correct? 3 MR. : Yes. But, you know, like, if 4 she was talking, I probably was focused on a 5 different task, because I have paperwork that I 6 have to do, too. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : But around this time, I start 9 cleaning out the folders. 10 MR. : Okay. So, around the 11 10:30 p.m. time? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : All right. So, there's 14 nothing that you can kind of help shed us light 15 on, with these count slips? 16 MR. : No. I don't have nothing. 17 MR. : And is it fair to say, 18 though, you do not know when you put these Nine 19 S plus one on the R&D, and then, the plus one 20 on the ZA? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, you don't -. 23 MR. : Now, this is not my handwriting 24 right here. 25 MR. : So, the plus one next to EFTA00113373 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 the ZA is not you? 2 MR. : I don't think that's me. But I 3 know for sure that's me. Right there. 4 MR. : What do you know is for sure? 5 The nine S, or the plus one? 6 MR. : Yeah. The nine S, plus one. 7 MR. : Because the plus one here 8 looks kind of similar to this plus one there, 9 doesn't it? 10 MR. : It looks similar, but I don't 11 believe that's my handwriting. But it could 12 be. It could be. 13 MR. : Or maybe this plus one 14 isn't yours, and just the nine S is yours. 15 MR. : You know, it could be my 16 handwriting. And I can't 17 MR. : It could be. 18 MR. : I can't remember. You know, 19 it's been 20 MR. : All right. 21 MR. : -- a while. 22 MR. : It's been a while. Bu- 23 has -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- anything like this EFTA00113374 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 ever happened before? That you can think of. 2 MR. : Probably. I mean, you know -- 3 MR. : Have you seen -- 4 MR. : -- it's not a -- 5 MR. : -- things like -? 6 MR. : -- it's not a, you know, it's 7 not a -. It's not a, you know, it's not a 8 science. You know? Mistakes do happen. 9 Because we do drop the ball. That's why we 10 have to, you know, view each other, and be, you 11 know, and work behind each other, and look over 12 each other's shoulder. It can be possible. 13 MR. : So, any one that we've 14 showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I've 15 never seen anything like that before. But this 16 has actually happened in the past, where you've 17 seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine S 18 plus one? 19 MR. : Sometimes. Like I said, you 20 know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves 21 early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., 22 R&D should have gone home already. 23 MR. : Yeah. So, they have a 24 guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, 25 watching him. EFTA00113375 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Correct? And that's where 3 that we get the name -- 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- he's a custody guy, 6 right? 7 MR. : He's custody. 8 MR. : Right. And this guy, 9 apparently, has been in there before the 4:00 10 p.m. count. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : There is no count -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- slip from -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. for the 4:00 p.m. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : He's never keyed out of 19 SHU. So, again, I haven't been looking at you 20 as dropping the ball on this. So, explain to 21 me why you think you dropped the ball here. 22 MR. : I should have caught it. I 23 should have said something about it. And maybe 24 I -- 25 MR. : But how would have you -. EFTA00113376 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 MR. : -- maybe actually had a fault 2 over it, you know? Started, you know, 3 complaining about it. I don't know. You know? 4 MR. : How would have you known 5 that it was nine S plus one? Would SHU have to 6 have told you that there was somebody? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : So, you believe you 9 called the SHU, and they told you? 10 MR. : I don't -. I can't recall if I 11 called SHU or not. I probably was doing what I 12 was told. Because, as an officer, that's, you 13 know, I know that's a no-no. You can't put 14 that. 15 MR. : Okay. So, if there are 16 only 72 inmates in the SHU -- 17 MR. : That should have been minus 18 one. Like you said. 19 MR. : -- but this slip that 20 they gave you in the first place was wrong. 21 Correct? Shouldn't have their slip that they 22 provided to you say 72? 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : So, does that indicate 25 that they didn't do the count, to you? EFTA00113377 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. : No. You could still do the 2 count. I mean, you could still do the count, 3 but if somebody, you know, higher up said, yo, 4 this is what you need to put on the count slip, 5 that's what you put on the count slip. Now, 6 you know, like, somebody dropped the ball. 7 MR. : And that's where, again, 8 my opinion has always been all along that it 9 was the SHU that dropped the ball. So, I want 10 you to keep in mind, again, because there's 11 still Noel and Thomas. On this 10:00 p.m. one 12 is Noel and On the 12:00 a.m. one, 13 it's Noel and Thomas. Both of their count 14 slips say 73. So, if somebody told somebody at 15 10:00 p.m. that there was actually only 72, 16 which is what I'm gathering you're trying to 17 say, why at 12:00 a.m. would of they continued 18 to write 73? 19 MR. : I don't know, sir. 20 MR. : And that's where -- 21 MR. (Indiscernible *00:49:33). 22 MR. and that, again, 23 that's where I just want to make sure we're not 24 tripping over ourselves here because that is, 25 to me, highly unlikely that if you spoke to the EFTA00113378 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 SHU at 10:00 p.m., and told them, we got 2 somebody in R&D, they wouldn't continue to 3 write 73 at 12:00 a.m. Would they? 4 MR. : I'm not too sure. I can't 5 MR. : Especially if -- 6 MR. (Indiscernible *00:49:55). 7 MR. : -- the El now, because at 8 12:35, it's correct, that it says 72 -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- at 12:00 a.m. Right? 11 MR. : Yes. Like, at this time, I 12 just generate the El. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : And I put my name as the 15 officer, who I'm preparing. Now, if the 16 lieutenant took the count, you know, like -- 17 MR. : And the lieutenant can't 18 take this count -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. -: -- correct? 21 MR. : Like, the lieutenant wrote her 22 name, she took the count. Me as the officer 23 that was preparing this, I should have took a 24 look at it, to see if the numbers all jive from 25 last, from the last count. But I figured that EFTA00113379 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 the El was correct, and it cleared, in good 2 verbal, and it cleared. So, nobody didn't 3 think nothing of it. 4 MR. : So, if the Ops Lieutenant 5 is supposed to be taking the 12:00 a.m. count, 6 and the 12:00 a.m. count slip from the SHU is 7 saying 73, whereas the El says 72, is this bad 8 on the Ops Lieutenant? 9 MR. : Bad on both parties. 10 MR. : Would you be assisting 11 her with this? 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : During that time. So, on 14 this part, how would you be involved, if she's 15 doing it herself? 16 MR. : I should have took a look at 17 the numbers before I gave it to her. 18 MR. : But it looks like this 19 was printed out at the same time that So, 20 this person was keyed out at 0035. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : This El was printed out 23 at 0035. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : So, it looks like it was EFTA00113380 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the exact same thing. She keyed out this 2 person, , from SHU and placed him in 3 R&D, at the exact same time this El was printed 4 out. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Correct? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So -. 9 MR. : Okay. Now I see where you're 10 going. This is way after the 12:00. 11 MR. : This is way after the 12 12:00. But this count slip says 73. The 10:00 13 p.m. count slip also says 73. My point being 14 is, I don't think you did anything wrong here. 15 I think this thing, the El, shows 73. They're 16 providing you something that says 73. So, to 17 me, you're good. But the question is, when did 18 these things come into play. One of these 19 notations. 20 MR. : I can't remember. 21 MR. : You can't remember? 22 MR. : I can't remember. But I know 23 that Nine South is mine. 24 MR. : So, you know that you 25 wrote this? EFTA00113381 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : And you believe you would 3 have wrote it, though, per the Ops Lieutenant's 4 direction? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : All right. So, 7 Lieutenant , who was the Ops 8 Lieutenant, would have instructed you to do 9 that? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And don't you believe 12 that she would have done that, told you to do 13 that after she realized that person wasn't in 14 SHU, that person was in R&D? 15 MR. : Oh, probably. Probably, it was 16 a miscommunication about where that inmate was 17 truly at. 18 MR. : So, does that make you 19 think, re-think what you said, then? You said, 20 at 10:00 p.m., you would have - 10:00, 10:30 21 p.m. - you would have made those notations, but 22 now, does it make you think, oh, you know what? 23 It probably was after the 12:00 p.m. count that 24 I made those notations? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00113382 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Per her instruction. 2 MR. : No. I wouldn't have did this 3 because I would have known this is, you know, 4 this will come back and bite you in the ass if 5 I did this after -- 6 MR. : No, no, no, I'm not 7 talking about -- 8 MR. : -- midnight. 9 MR. : -- the whole concept. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : I'm simply talking about 12 the plus one and the Nine South plus one. 13 MR. : Hmm. Oh, I don't -. I 14 wouldn't have did that after, at the 12:00 15 count, going backwards. 16 MR. : So, do you remember 17 having a conversation with her, then, after the 18 fact, and letting her know isn't 19 there? 20 MR. : I can't remember. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : I'm sorry. 23 MR. : You know, I'm just, again 24 25 MR. : That was such a while -. EFTA00113383 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 MR. the reason So, if 2 you did notice it, how would have you noticed 3 it? 4 MR. : Before the -. Oh, well, I did 5 this during the 10:00 p.m. count. 6 MR. : You would have And 7 the Ops Lieutenant would have had to tell you, 8 during the 10:00 p.m. count, that this has 9 happened? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : And then, again, this is 12 where I'm super baffled. Why wasn't the person 13 keyed out until after the 12:00 a.m. count? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : The 35 and the 35. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Do you follow me? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Why wouldn't that have 20 happened until then? Especially if you noticed 21 this. Why would the SHU have continued to 22 report 73? 23 MR. : Can I ask a question? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : What time did EFTA00113384 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 come on her shift that night? 2 MR. : Oh. 3 MR. : Do you recall? 4 MR. : We were talking about 5 10:00 p.m. 6 MR. : Was she around when this 7 10:00 p.m. count came in? 8 MR. : Yes. She should have been on 9 duty at that time. 10 MR. : Do you recall -- 11 MR. : Now, what time -- 12 MR. : -- any -. 13 MR. : -- what time did she come on 14 duty? I can't really remember because they've 15 been changing their times, you know -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- so, I can't really remember 18 at that time. 19 MR. : Do you recall any 20 conversations with her? Forget the SHU. With 21 her, regarding somebody being in R&D? 22 MR. : Hmm. 23 MR. : Or the El being wrong, 24 between 10:00 p.m. and midnight. 25 MR. : Hmm. No. I truly can't EFTA00113385 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 recall. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, I have follow up on the 4 10:00. Right? So, you did the 10:00 p.m., 5 right? And I just realized something, too. If 6 this count slip came up, right? The 10:00 p.m. 7 count slip came up, and the SHU is on the -. 8 Right? How come the El didn't get updated? 9 MR. : I can't -. 10 MR. : What is the normal procedure? 11 Let's say it turns out that you're doing the 12 count, right? 13 MR. : And we (Indiscernible 14 *00:55:40). 15 MR. : And you have a body in R&D. 16 Right? And there's a count slip here. What 17 should have happened? 18 MR. : What should had happened is 19 another El should have been generated. Like, 20 this one was, after the 12:00. 21 MR. : But that one was generated. 22 MR. : I just want to make sure 23 I -. (Indiscernible *00:56:04) 24 MR. (Indiscernible *00:56:03) 25 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:56:03) EFTA00113386 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : 10:33. 2 MR. : No, 9:30. 3 MR. : 9:30. 4 MR. : Oh, 9:33. 5 MR. : And this is for the 10:00 6 p.m. count. 7 MR. : And this is for the 10:00. 8 MR. : So, you've saying that this 9 El is for the 10:00 p.m. count, was this 10 printed out at 9:33 p.m.? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And being the fact that a 13 slip came up from R&D, you're saying that a new 14 El for the 10:00 p.m. -- 15 MR. : A new El should have been 16 generated, but we're supposed to not do that. 17 Or no. I'm not too clear on how -. Like, I 18 normally, normally, we don't do -. Normally, 19 we don't generate another El unless somebody 20 tells us to. But I should have just did a new 21 El. 22 MR. : Who would have to tell you 23 that a new El had to be generated? 24 MR. : Normally, we take it upon 25 ourselves to generate an El. Like, I should EFTA00113387 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 had generated a new El. 2 MR. : Should -. Okay. At that 3 point, being the fact that there's a body in 4 R&D, right? And somehow, it got marked because 5 it looks like it was associated, it says nine 6 S, to the SHU slip. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : That there was a body moved. 9 Should there have been a flag that there was 10 somebody missing in the system? 11 MR. : Yeah. There should have been a 12 flag. 13 MR. : So, what should have 14 happened? Was the count right, at that point? 15 MR. : Paper wise, no, the count was 16 not right. 17 MR. : So, what should have 18 happened? 19 MR. : A new El should have been 20 generated. The inmates name should have been, 21 you know, sent to CNA, so we could process, to 22 type them into the system. 23 MR. : What should have happened to 24 the count slips? 25 MR. : They should have been trashed, EFTA00113388 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 and new count slips should have been generated. 2 MR. : Do you recall having any 3 conversations with anyone in the SHU that 4 night? 5 MR. : No, sir. 6 MR. : What about R&D? 7 MR. : If it's 10:00 p.m., R&D already 8 left. 9 MR. : But keep in mind, this 10 somebody, this is in there, right? 11 MR. : In custody. 12 MR. : According to the count slip, 13 there's -- 14 MR. : In custody. 15 MR. -- in custody, but he's 16 sitting in R&D right now -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- because they have a body 19 sitting in dry cell, and he's watching over -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- the person in dry cell, in 22 R&D. Now that, when sends to you - 23 sends a count slip, and says, hey, 24 listen, I've got a body sitting here, right, 25 and you see the El, should a conversation been EFTA00113389 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 had with , also? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And -. 4 MR. : Like I said, is just a 5 correctional officer. He probably was pretty 6 new. So, he probably didn't know, either. You 7 know what I'm saying? You know, he probably 8 didn't know to call CNA, or -- 9 MR. : But know what, though? 10 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *00:58:43). 11 MR. : Sorry. What would he not 12 know? 13 MR. : Probably not know -. He 14 probably thought that the inmate was already in 15 the system, because he's sitting on the post. 16 MR. : No, no, but I'm saying that, 17 you have an El sitting in front of you, with 18 zero, sitting in R&D. He's sending you a slip 19 for one person. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Should a conversation had 22 been had with , hey, listen, who do you 23 have there? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Was a conversation like that EFTA00113390 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 ever happened that night? 2 MR. : I don't recall. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Okay. And you're just -. 5 Point being on this, that's your handwriting, 6 you just don't remember what happened, or when 7 it happened? 8 MR. : Yes, sir. 9 MR. : Correct. But you do - 10 you're sticking with - you do believe that you 11 would have written that stuff during the 10:00 12 p.m. count, and not after it was recognized at 13 12:35 a.m. 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : -- so, you think that you 16 did this actually during that count? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : That's just what's 19 baffling to me. But if you did that during 20 that count, wouldn't you have contacted the 21 SHU, to let them know that their count is 22 wrong? 23 MR. : Yes. I think either A, either 24 I would have did it, or send it what I did it, 25 but I don't recall talking to Nine South and EFTA00113391 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 myself. 2 MR. : Right. And per the Ops 3 Lieutenant, she said that she had the 4 conversation with them, and she said she had 5 the conversation with them during the 12:00 6 a.m. count. 7 MR. : I'm not too sure. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : I can't -. 10 MR. : And you don't remember 11 that conversation? 12 MR. : I don't remember. 13 MR. : All right. So, you 14 believe the R&D unit, at least the Nine S is 15 your handwriting. On the 10:00 p.m., ZA count 16 slip, the SHU count slip, you do not believe 17 that plus one is your handwriting? 18 MR. : No, I don't believe, but it 19 could be mine. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Because I did take the count. 22 MR. : All right. And you don't 23 know why you would have crossed every other 24 count slip off, aside from this, these two? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00113392 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 MR. : And you know if you've 2 ever done that in the past? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : Okay. All right. A]. 5 right. Let's move on. If you do remember 6 anything about that, again, in our mind, we've 7 been going upon the fact that the SHU is 8 reporting what they think the El is supposed to 9 be, you know, the El says and what they're 10 supposed to be reporting. They're reporting 11 they're incorrect numbers, from at last 3:15 12 p.m. They have one less than the number that 13 they're actually showing on their count slips. 14 That's for the 4:00 p.m. count, the 10:00 p.m. 15 count, and even the 12:00 a.m. count. So, if 16 you can remember anything with regard to that 17 knowledge, but after the fact that we speak, 18 you know, and when these things happened, we 19 would so greatly appreciate you calling us -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- and letting us know. 22 When we go through documents, rather than 23 bombarding you at the end, we ask people to 24 initial and date those documents. So, I'll 25 just - while we're at it - I'm going to show. EFTA00113393 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 Is this 3:00 a.m. count on August 10th, 2019, 2 was that you, as well? 3 MR. : That's mine. 4 MR. : All right. Great. So, 5 this first El, it shows - again - ZA now shows 6 72, ZA says 72. RA says one, RA says one. And 7 the same thing with these count slips, the back 8 ZA says Now, the ZA does say 72. So, they 9 changed from their 12:00 a.m. count slip, where 10 they're reporting 73, to now the 3:00 a.m. 11 count slip, they're showing 72. RA is, again, 12 showing one. Correct? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : And would this be a big 15 deal, if this kind of stuff happened? Where the 16 Els are bad, the count slips are wrong. 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : And being that this is, 19 like, a big deal, this isn't at all sticking 20 out to you -- 21 MR. : I mean -- 22 MR. : -- remind you that -. 23 MR. : -- yeah, but, like, this is the 24 first time, you know, I'm talking about these 25 Els, y'all are the first people that brought EFTA00113394 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this to my attention. 2 MR. : Oh, so, you never even 3 knew that until now? 4 MR. : I never knew this until now. 5 MR. : And even at this time, 6 though, when it was happening, no one ever 7 brought it to your attention that, dude, these 8 count slips aren't matching up what the El 9 says? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : So, you don't even 12 remember that taking place? 13 MR. : No, sir. 14 MR. : All right. And then, 15 here's the 5:00 a.m. count, created by you. 16 Or, you know, it shows, again, one in RA, 72 in 17 ZA, or the SHU. And here's the RA count one 18 slip. Here's the 72 for ZA. Again, Noel and 19 Thomas. All right. So, these all look good. 20 Now, is this normal, to print out the -. So, 21 the 5:00 a.m. and the 3:00 a.m. counts were 22 both printed out at 1:22 a.m. Is that normal? 23 MR. : Sometimes, the computers go 24 down. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113395 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 MR. : So, me personally, I know that 2 the computers go down. Meaning that Sentry, 3 for the BOP, normally goes down. So, I try to 4 print up several copies, so just in case if the 5 computers go down, I have copies already. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Now, on a typical, normal 8 shift, when the computers are up and running, 9 Sentry is up and running, I try to print it out 10 an hour of the count. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Within the hour, you mean? 13 MR. : Oh, within the -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- within the hour of the 16 count. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You know, 45 minutes to an hour 19 of the count. 20 MR. : Do you recall, any time that 21 night, receiving any replacement count slips? 22 MR. : I can't really -. 23 MR. : Any conversations about, hey, 24 listen, there's a second set of count slips 25 coming up from the SHU? Or anything to that EFTA00113396 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 effect? MR. : No. MR. : Okay. MR. : And again, do you mind 5 just, all these documents, just initial and 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 dating the top of each one. It's not to certify the accuracy. It's just to say that this is what we actually spoke about during this interview. MR. : Today is 8/5/21. MR. : 8 -- MR. : 5/21. MR. -- 8/5/21. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Just the top of each one. 17 MR. : And this is just for accuracy? 18 MR. : No, no. 19 MR. : Oh. 20 MR. : This is just to say 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 22 *01:05:35). 23 MR. : -- state that these are the 24 documents showed you. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113397 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 MR. : Yeah. So, by you putting 2 your initials and dates on it, we can say, we 3 can positively confirm this is the document we 4 talked about. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, we can't go back 7 later and, like, change something and say, no, 8 we talked about this document, and say, no, no, 9 no, no, it's got my initial and my date, you 10 know, my date on here. This is specifically 11 what we talked about. Do you follow what I'm 12 saying? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Just to show what the 15 documents you were presented, you know, what 16 documents you were presented. So, it sounds, 17 like, by when you're saying that you think you 18 dropped the ball, it sounds like what you're 19 saying is, you knew that someone was gone from 20 the SHU, and it was in R&D at 10:00 p.m., but 21 you never contacted the SHU to let them know, 22 or to ask them about it? Or you just don't 23 remember? 24 MR. : No. I just don't remember. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113398 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : You know, I apologize if I 2 can't help you anymore. Since this is the 3 first time I'm hearing about this, y'all 4 bringing it to my attention. 5 MR. : But you do agree that the 6 SHU should have been providing count slips that 7 said 72, both at the 10:00 p.m. and the 12:00 8 a.m. count. Correct? Being that he was moved 9 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., the day before? Or 10 on August 9th. 11 MR. : I do agree because that's a 12 part of your post orders. And I, you know, 13 that's a part of our function. 14 MR. : Yeah. So -- 15 MR. (Indiscernible *01:07:12) 16 custody. 17 MR. : -- the count slips were 18 bad. And regardless of what you can remember, 19 the 10:00 p.m., or actually, the 4:00 p.m., the 20 10:00 p.m., and the 12:00 a.m. count slips 21 provided by the SHU were all bad because this 22 guy was moved to the R&D holding cell at least 23 3:15 p.m. Correct? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Yes. They all should be EFTA00113399 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 one less than what they were reporting? 2 MR. : Yeah. Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. Thank you. And 4 again, though - and I want to be clear on this 5 - by you putting 95+1 on the RA count slip, and 6 plus one on the ZA count slip, that would have 7 had to have been by the direction of the Ops 8 Lieutenant? 9 MR. : Yes. Somebody higher up than 10 an eight. 11 MR. : Okay. What is your 12 understanding of what happened to Epstein on 13 August 9th and 10th of 2019? 14 MR. : My understanding is that he 15 committed suicide. 16 MR. : Okay. And what is your 17 understanding of how he died? 18 MR. : He died by hanging himself. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 20 information with regard to any suspicious 21 activity that occurred on August 9th or 10th, 22 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in 23 his cell? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : All right. I'm just EFTA00113400 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 going to over these very generally. These 2 issues. What do you know of Epstein's alleged 3 first suicide attempt on July 23rd, 2019? 4 MR. : Nothing. I don't think I was 5 here at that time. I mean, I think I was 6 either off, or I called out. So, I don't 7 really know about his first hanging. 8 MR. : Okay. Now, was he -- 9 MR. : Or attempt. 10 MR. : -- was Epstein placed on 11 suicide watch? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. And then, being 14 placed on suicide watch, when they returned to 15 the SHU, was he required to have a cell mate? 16 MR. : Yes. I believe so. 17 MR. : Okay. Is everybody that 18 returns to the SHU required to have a cell mate 19 if they're on suicide watch? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 22 Epstein was prematurely removed from suicide 23 watch? 24 MR. : I don't know. But I believe so 25 because, you know, I mean, he's fighting a very EFTA00113401 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 big case. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : And so, if he tried the first 4 time, I definitely believe he would try it 5 again. 6 MR. : And do you know why he 7 was removed from suicide watch after the first 8 attempt? 9 MR. : I'm not too sure. There was 10 speculation, you know, they said rumors about 11 the court system, you know, since this case is 12 so big, he needs access to his lawyers. He 13 needs access to his paperwork. So, maybe, 14 maybe, maybe his lawyer pulled in some 15 paperwork to a judge, and the judge probably 16 said, yo, he needs to have access to his 17 paperwork. I'm not too sure. 18 MR. : So, you had heard that, 19 possibly, the judge contacted who? The warden? 20 MR. : Possibility. I don't know. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : No. I'm too small on the food 23 chain to know this information. 24 MR. : And who did you hear -- 25 MR. : All that. EFTA00113402 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- that from? 2 MR. : It was just rumors, and word of 3 mouth, of, you know, how us officers talk. 4 MR. : Okay. But you had heard 5 that the judge contacted the warden? 6 MR. : You know, I can't say it's for 7 sure. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : It's just, you know, what, you 10 know, it was, like, drinking. You know, 11 drinking, having a couple beers, this is what's 12 going on in the building, this is what I heard. 13 Some of it is true. Some of it is very not 14 true. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : So, I don't know. I can't 17 really say that's definitely. 18 MR. : Okay. And what do you 19 know about Epstein's cell mate being removed 20 from the MCC on August 9th, 2019? 21 MR. : I think he got released. I 22 think he got released. 23 MR. : So, he was transferred. 24 But - all right - did you have anything to do 25 with -. Did you know his cell mate was Efrain EFTA00113403 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Reyes? Did you know that? 2 MR. : I heard of his name. But I'm 3 not too sure since I don't work nights at all. 4 MR. : Okay. Had you heard that 5 he was transferred, or released? 6 MR. : I just -- 7 MR. : Like, removed from the 8 MCC? 9 MR. : I heard that his bunkee was 10 released. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Now, that's all I heard. Like, 13 how sure it is, how definite, I don't know. 14 MR. : Now, with you being in 15 the positions that you were in on August 9th 16 and August 10th, working in internal and 17 control, would you have anything to do with 18 that, with making sure the SHU was aware that 19 Reyes was not coming back to the institution? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : No? Okay. What time did 22 you begin work again on August 9th? At 6:00. 23 Or -- 24 MR. : 4:00. 25 MR. : -- at 4:00. So, what EFTA00113404 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 time does the -. If inmates aren't back from 2 court -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : -- what time does the 5 people -? 6 MR. : CNA do not do anything for the 7 courts. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That's R&D's job. R&D's job is 10 to, you know, delegate all the courts, and we 11 don't touch that. Now, if an inmate comes in 12 late, like, you know, like you showed me, like 13 if an inmate comes in late, or have to stay in 14 R&D late, and I have to move him later, to 15 another housing unit, like take him off of RA 16 and put him, or put him in Nine South, ZA. 17 That's what I do. I just type, type, type 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. transfer. 20 MR. : All right. So, and let': 21 go back to . Who should have keyed 22 out of the SHU and placed him into 23 the R&D? 24 MR. : Take him out of SHU, place him 25 into R&D, it's supposed to be CNA. EFTA00113405 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. : Okay. And then, who - if 2 this happened at about 3:15 p.m. Let's see, 3 the (Indiscernible *01:13:08) - who, on this 4 daily schedule for August 9th, should have done 5 that? If it happened at about 3:00 in the 6 afternoon. 7 MR. : If it happened at 3:00 in the 8 afternoon, whoever was in CNA, CNA during. 9 MR. : We'll explain the situation a 10 little bit. He was a SHU inmate. He had 11 visitation. He went into the visitation, and 12 officers saw him possibly receiving contraband. 13 MR. : Visitation in the SHU, 14 though. So -- 15 MR. : In the SHU. 16 MR. : -- this is SHU 17 visitation, the SHU officer saw the contraband, 18 and moved him to R&D dry cell. 19 MR. : Oh, okay. 20 MR. : And moved him to medical, 21 I think, and then R&D dry cell. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Does that make sense? So, 24 who would have been -? But that happened at 25 1:40. EFTA00113406 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. So, that happened -. 2 MR. : So, the visitation at 3 1:40, we just know by 3:15, at least, he was 4 put into R&D dry cell. 5 MR. : That should have been control 6 number two. 7 MR. : And who was in that 8 position at that time? 9 MR. : This is, it says on the 10 9th. 11 MR. : All right. So, 12 was the one who was supposed to make sure that 13 14 MR. : No, it would have -. You said 15 2:00? Okay. I don't know what this is. 2:00 16 to 8:00. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : 6:00 to 14. Wait a minute. 19 Control number two. It should have been -. 20 Well, who's supposed to be there? Because this 21 is what Could you -? 22 MR. : All right. 23 MR. : Okay. You said by, in between 24 times -- 25 MR. : It looks like 1:00 -- EFTA00113407 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- of 3:00 -. 2 MR. : 1:40 -- 3 MR. : 1:40. 4 MR. : -- was when it happened. 5 But then, he was placed - we know, at least - 6 in R&D, according to the lieutenant's log, at 7 3:15, he was placed into R&D dry cell. So, I 8 don't know. Well, if they found him with some 9 kind of thing on him, and he went to Would 10 he have to go to medical first? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : So, he would go to SHU. 13 Would he then go to medical? And then, from 14 medical to R&D dry cell? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : In order for him to pass 17 something? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Is that how it would 20 work? 21 MR. : It's supposed to work like 22 that. It's supposed to -. Normally, we take 23 an inmate straight to -. If our scanner is 24 working, we're supposed to take them there 25 first. Go put him through the scanner. Once EFTA00113408 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 he goes through the scanner, now he's supposed 2 to go an available dry cell. Now, I don't know 3 if they used R&D, or if they used our HA unit. 4 HA unit is normally where we put everybody for 5 dry cell. 6 MR. : Yeah, no, this was an odd 7 thing that they put him in R&D, right? 8 MR. : And then, you know, if 9 sometimes they choose to put him down in HA. 10 Sometimes they choose to put him in R&D. 11 Sometimes they choose to go straight to Nine 12 South. If there's available - Nine South - if 13 there's an available, empty cell. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : They will take him straight to 16 Nine South, and put an officer in front of his 17 door to watch him. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : If there's an available cell. 20 Because normally, sometimes, most of the time, 21 Nine South gets a little crowded. So, we don't 22 have an available cell to put an inmate that's 23 supposed to be on dry cell. So, they have to 24 figure it out, where are they going to put him, 25 either in R&D, put an officer, or HA, put an EFTA00113409 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 officer. 2 MR. : But in this case, though, 3 if at 1:40, it's found out, and then, by at 4 least 3:15, he's moved to R&D. Who should have 5 - at 3:15 - coded him into R&D, and out of SHU? 6 MR. : Okay. Control number two. It 7 should have been in between Viera (Phonetic Sp. 8 *01:16:44) or 9 MR. : All right. So then, if 10 it was at 3:15, I'm assuming it would have been 11 because -- 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : -- that's from -. He 14 started at 2:00. Correct? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : All right. But you said 17 that you don't even think worked that 18 day. You said it was somebody else? 19 MR. : I'm not too sure. I can't 20 remember. 21 MR. : All right. And this is 22 the position that would have been for 23 Fernandez. So, I'm circling his name and 24 writing Fernandez movement. 25 MR. : You said you're not sure if EFTA00113410 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 worked that day? 2 MR. : I'm not too sure. 3 MR. : Okay. Yeah. And 4 was listed on the 4:00 p.m. count. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, that would have been 7 that should have done it? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. Okay. What about 10 with Reyes? And if the SHU knew that Reyes left 11 WAB, but they believed he went to court, rather 12 than transferred. So, if they know he's WAB, 13 and he went to court, is there an argument to 14 be had that they thought he could possibly have 15 returned that day? 16 MR. : To be honest with you, I don't 17 know. Since I don't -- 18 MR. : If someone's listed -. 19 MR. : -- since I don't work Nine 20 South -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- and I try to - I tend to 23 stay out of their business. 24 MR. : But when there's a court 25 list and it shows WAB next to someone's name -- EFTA00113411 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- or then, I shouldn't 3 say court list. What's it called? Because you 4 just corrected us. Not the court list, but 5 that would be -- 6 MR. : The call out. 7 MR. : -- the call out list. 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : So, if the call out list 10 says, "Reyes, WAB" should they know that he's 11 not going to return? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. So, would there be 14 anything for someone in, like, control or 15 internal to do, at around the 4:00 count, to 16 verify that he is actually, in fact, not 17 returning? 18 MR. : No. Since Nine South is the 19 only small entity, we try not to - you know - 20 like, it can be -. You know, we can drop the 21 ball. Like, if I'm control, you are internal, 22 we can drop the ball because we assume that 23 Nine South already know. Because they are, you 24 know, those men and women that work up there, 25 they already know. EFTA00113412 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And why would they 2 already know? 3 MR. : Because they work there. But, 4 like I said earlier, a lot of, you know, a lot 5 of staff have left at that time, either they 6 quit, either they retired, either that they, 7 you know, found another job. So, we was 8 lacking a lot of staff during this time. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, everybody is on overtime. 11 If you look, I was on overtime. So, when a lot 12 of people was on overtime. Now, like I said, 13 maybe - you know what I'm saying? - maybe, if I 14 was more diligent in Nine South business, maybe 15 I could have said something. But I wasn't, 16 since I wasn't working that post. I didn't 17 think nothing of it. 18 MR. : But if it says WAB on the 19 call out list, didn't you just say? So, if the 20 people that got Reyes at 8:00 in the morning, 21 produced him to R&D, or whomever that he goes 22 to when it says WAB, wouldn't the assumption be 23 that he's not actually returning? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Was that the case? EFTA00113413 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 1 MR. : If it says WAB, he's definitely 2 not coming back. 3 MR. : And that should be known? 4 Definitely not coming back. So, if someone 5 says, WAB, if it said WAB, but we believed he 6 was going to court, and there's always the 7 possibility that he could return. Is that an 8 argument to be had? If it says WAB. 9 MR. : I mean, once in a blue, yes. 10 Some of them do come back. Either one thing or 11 another, maybe they was very disrespectful to 12 the Marshal, or maybe the court said never 13 mind. Sometimes, it does happen. 14 MR. : But that's, like, is that 15 more of, like, a one in a thousand type chance? 16 MR. : I guess. 17 MR. : Yeah. So, it's -- 18 MR. : I'm not too -. 19 MR. : -- extremely unlikely, if 20 it says WAB, that he's coming back. Correct? 21 MR. : Yeah. But it does happen. 22 Some people, you let go, I thought you was 23 leaving. Oh, something happened. 24 MR. : Okay. Now, I've heard 25 that something happens if it has to do with, EFTA00113414 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 like, a transport, if something was cancelled. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : But if by, for instance, 4 he leaves at 8:00, he's WAB, by 2:00 p.m., if 5 he's not back, that means, certainly, he got 6 off on the transport. Does that mean, 7 basically, by 2:00 p.m., if somebody that's WAB 8 is not back, they're certainly not returning? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And in this case, 11 if someone is WAB, would control have any - 12 internal - have anything to do with, at the 13 4:00 p.m. count, contacting SHU, to make sure 14 that they're aware that that WAB person, in 15 fact, isn't coming back? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : No? Okay. Okay. Do you 18 know about any other -. I know we went over 19 these counts that, you know, we said we believe 20 are incorrect because the numbers weren't 21 right, that the count slips. Are you aware of 22 any other count slips that were incorrect 23 around this time period? 24 MR. : Not to my knowledge. 25 MR. : No? Are you aware of EFTA00113415 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 rounds not being conducted and being falsified 2 prior to August 10th, 2019? 3 MR. : Not to my knowledge. 4 MR. : Had you heard that the 5 rounds were not being conducted in the SHU on 6 August 9th and 10th of 2019? 7 MR. : Not to my knowledge. 8 MR. : Even after the fact, you 9 hadn't heard that, in the news and all that? 10 MR. : The news was saying a lot of 11 bad things. 12 MR. : And what about when you 13 said you go get beers with your buddies, even 14 hear it, don't you? Didn't you guys talk about 15 the fact that the rounds and the counts weren't 16 conducted in the SHU? 17 MR. : Whenever I get stuck to work 18 Nine South, those cameras might not see what 19 the inmates do, but I know they definitely see 20 what I do. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Oh, my fault. I apologize. 23 The cameras definitely don't see what the 24 inmates do. But they sure see everything I do. 25 So, when I'm up there, I try to stay on point, EFTA00113416 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 because I need my job. 2 MR. : Sure. So, point being, 3 though, do you know if people were falsifying 4 rounds? 5 MR. : Not to my knowledge. 6 MR. : No? Okay. Are you aware 7 - speaking of cameras - if the MCC SHU cameras 8 were working on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 9 MR. : I believe they was working. 10 MR. : You believe they were 11 working? 12 MR. : I believe all the cameras were 13 working back then. 14 MR. : All right. And then, had 15 you heard that they weren't working? 16 MR. : Through the media. When they 17 was talking about the cameras didn't work. 18 MR. : And what is your 19 understanding of -? Do you believe that they 20 were working, and if we're not able to get 21 recordings, do you believe that someone deleted 22 those recordings? 23 MR. : No. I don't think anybody that 24 bold. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00113417 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Have you heard anything 3 about deletion of cameras, or people knocking 4 cameras offline, or -- 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : -- them not recording? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : No? 9 MR. : Because we don't have -. We 10 don't have access as correctional staff, to -. 11 MR. : Who would have access, to 12 be able to knock cameras offline? Or stop them 13 14 MR. : I guess the -- 15 MR. : -- from recording. 16 MR. : I guess the higher ups. So, 17 I'm not too sure. 18 MR. : Would the Comtech? 19 MR. : I mean, yeah, a possibility. 20 MR. : Okay. But you're not 21 really sure? 22 MR. : I'm not really sure, sir. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 24 Epstein was in his assigned cell on August 25 10th, 2019? EFTA00113418 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : I believe so. But I don't work 2 Nine South, so I can't tell you. 3 MR. : Had you heard anything 4 about him not being in his assigned cell? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : No. Do you know if cell 7 searches were being conducted in the SHU in 8 July and August of 2019? 9 MR. : They should have been. Every 10 day, we have to do -. If you work in any post, 11 Nine South to any housing units, you're 12 supposed to conduct five shakedowns per shift. 13 MR. : Is that five shakedowns, 14 though, during the day and night watch? 15 MR. : Day watch. 16 MR. : But not 17 MR. : Evening watch. 18 MR. : But not morning watch, 19 right? 20 MR. : Not morning watch. 21 MR. : So, you're supposed to do 22 five during the day, and five during the night? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : And do you know if they 25 were being conducted in the SHU? EFTA00113419 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : To my knowledge -- 2 MR. : Yeah. But you don't know 3 4 MR. : I believe (Indiscernible 5 *01:24:48). 6 MR. : -- anything about them 7 not being conducted, though? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. When you worked in 10 the SHU, were they conducted? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Do you have 13 knowledge of Epstein placing a telephone call 14 in the SHU on August 9th, 2019? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : No? 17 MR. : I'm not sure about that. 18 MR. : Had you heard that one? 19 MR. : No, sir. 20 MR. : No. What do you know 21 about someone else taking Epstein's life? 22 MR. : I don't know nothing about 23 that. 24 MR. : What do you know about 25 other's assisting with taking Epstein's life? EFTA00113420 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : I don't know nothing about 2 that. 3 MR. : Did Epstein take his own 4 life? 5 MR. : I believe so. 6 MR. : And did Epstein act alone 7 in taking his own life? 8 MR. : I believe so. 9 MR. : Did you have any 10 involvement with Epstein's death? 11 MR. : No, sir. 12 MR. : What would have prevented 13 Epstein's death? 14 MR. : I'm really not too sure. Once 15 an inmate or a person has their mind made up, 16 they don't tell you when they're going to do 17 it. They just do it. This individual, I don't 18 know. I know that he was facing a serious 19 crime. I don't know if he wanted to do that on 20 his own, or he was protecting somebody. I 21 don't know. But to try to prevent, I think we 22 kind of tried everything that we wanted, but he 23 would have probably have succeeded somehow. 24 MR. : Okay. What actions 25 should have been taken to prevent his death? EFTA00113421 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : I think they should have kept 2 him in suicide watch, and had somebody watch 3 him at all times. But I mean -- 4 MR. : What about -- 5 MR. I'm just a GS-8. 6 MR. : -- what about ensuring 7 that he had his cell mate? 8 MR. : Oh, that, too. 9 MR. : What about ensuring that 10 rounds and counts were being conducted? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Anything else? 13 MR. : That's it. 14 MR. : All right. And what 15 about, like, placing him on, like, Ten South, 16 or G-tier? 17 MR. : Yeah. On G-tier, G-tier is 18 pretty spacious. But if he wanted, you know, 19 to hurt himself, he could have did it there, 20 too. 21 MR. : But does -- 22 MR. : He could have did it on Ten 23 South, too. 24 MR. : -- yeah. But they're 25 more closely monitored than the SHU. Correct? EFTA00113422 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. What are some of 3 the systematic problems inside the MCC - and 4 specifically, the SHU - that allowed for 5 Epstein to die? 6 MR. : Lack of staff. 7 MR. : Lack of staff. Is it all 8 9 MR. : Lack of staff. 10 MR. : -- okay. 11 MR. : Yeah. And how could I -? Right 12 now, we have a problem with lack of staff. The 13 staff that they are hiring right now is fall on 14 the money. This job is not the first job that 15 they apply for. It's just the first job that 16 called. So, with that knowledge, everybody 17 needs a job. You need to pay your bills, 18 right? You need to pay food. You know, you 19 need to take care of your family, your wife, 20 your kids, your husband, et cetera. So, when 21 this job calls, they go. When you hear about 22 the feds, you'd be, like, wow, the feds called 23 me for an interview. This is a top-paying job. 24 Everybody believes it. It's not the top of the 25 food chain. Especially not now. In New York, EFTA00113423 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 the rent is going up. Everything is going up. 2 So, this job is really just another job. It's 3 not a career anymore. It's a job. You pay -. 4 It's a job. So, a lot of the men and women, 5 they come, they see the headaches that we go 6 through. And they look at their paycheck, and 7 then, they look at the headaches that they go 8 through at home. Because when you get your 9 mandated every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, 10 Saturday, and Sunday, at first, your wife or 11 your husband believes it's good. The money is 12 coming in. But after a couple of months, your 13 wife or your husband will start believing that 14 you are cheating. Because, like, this, you 15 know, we're law enforcement. All law 16 enforcement cheat, right? What people believe. 17 So, a lot of individuals that I talk to, they 18 said they're not losing their wife, so they 19 quit. Or they moved on. Found another job for 20 the headache. So, we always going to lose 21 staff because the headache don't outweigh the 22 reward. 23 MR. : Juice isn't worth the 24 squeeze? 25 MR. : Yeah. And if they want to fix EFTA00113424 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 the place, they're going to have to 2 (Indiscernible *01:29:23) the money a little 3 bit, maybe we get better quality. 4 MR. : Have things improved 5 since August of 2019? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : You don't think they 8 have? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : That's a shame to hear. 11 Well, speaking of, so that we can lock down 12 this thing, just to leave, this is 13 I was just explaining it to you - but this is 14 actually -. So, here, for instance, is the 15 actual report. It's from . He 16 was the OIC SHU, the SHU OIC at the time. And 17 it says that the incident occurred on 8/9/2019, 18 at 1:40 p.m. "On August 9th, 2019, at 19 approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS , while 20 assigned as the Special Housing Unit officer, 21 proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting 22 room, as I walked towards the door, I observed, 23 through the visiting room door, inmate 24 attempting to garb an unknown item 25 from his visitor. Once I made reach EFTA00113425 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 to grab the item, I called the door and called 2 for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the 3 visiting room, I gave inmate a direct 4 order to walk -". Gave him an out of -. "To 5 walk out of the visiting room, to conduct a 6 visual search. Inmate compiled," Oh, 7 "Complied, and a visual search was conducted. 8 The Operations Lieutenant was contacted, and 9 inmate was removed from the unit." 10 So, with this knowledge, when should have he 11 been keyed out of the SHU? 12 MR. : He should have been - right 13 now, since he's in SHU - they probably believed 14 that he was coming back to SHU. Because where 15 is they going to put him at? You know -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- it says, Seven North. So, 18 basically, he's going to go to SHU soon. So, 19 they probably took him downstairs. It says 20 (Indiscernible *01:31:18). It says, the unit 21 says Seven North, and you said he was -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- Nine South visitation room. 24 Oh, okay, okay. Now, I see it. Where is that? 25 Yeah. So, Nine South probably means that he EFTA00113426 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 keeps coming back to SHU. Because that's where 2 you place all our inmates that has an incident 3 report. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : So, like this, he's coming back 6 to Nine South, (Indiscernible *01:31:40). 7 MR. : Okay. So then, when we 8 see this, inmate at 3:15 p.m., that 9 same day, placed on dry cell from ZA. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Is that the time he 12 should have been -? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : All right. So, at 3:15 15 is the time that he should have actually been, 16 then, placed - keyed out of the SHU? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Unless they was putting him on 20 dry cell in SHU. 21 MR. : Well, this one says dry 22 cell from ZA. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : So, this is when he was - 25 So, here. So, I mean EFTA00113427 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 MR. : So, if you just look at this 2 (Indiscernible *01:32:12). He was already in 3 the SHU. 4 MR. : Yeah. He was already in the 5 SHU. 6 MR. : And so, this one, we've 7 got to - we didn't highlight that. But so, 8 this one, IM on dry cell, with staff 9 watch and R&D. 3:15 p.m. That's when it 10 happened. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So, at 3:15 p.m. then, 13 I'm assuming, not 1:40, but at 3:15 p.m., 14 that's when he should have been keyed out of 15 the SHU, and keyed into R&D? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : All right. And that goes 18 back to, would have been the person in 19 control? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : All right. Would it -- 22 MR. : But if they believed -- 23 MR. : -- if he's going from 24 medical, though -- 25 MR. : -- but if they believed that he EFTA00113428 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 was going back to SHU, yes. They could have 2 just left him in SHU. Because they believed he 3 was coming back. 4 MR. : Well, that's at 1:40. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : When he goes down to 7 medical. If he's at medical -- 8 MR. : Oh, we don't come out -- 9 MR. : -- and then, from -- 10 MR. from medical. 11 MR. : -- what's that? 12 MR. : Medical is just -. Medical is 13 just a, it was, like, okay, I call you up to 14 come pick up an inmate, from my housing unit, 15 you take him down to medical. I'm not going to 16 go on the computer and take him off my unit. 17 MR. : Yeah. So, what I'm 18 asking, though, is, if he went -. In this 19 instance, if he did that, would they first take 20 him to medical, and then place him on dry cell 21 in the R&D? 22 MR. : No. The PA will probably come 23 up to talk to him, but otherwise, they wouldn't 24 take him down to medical. 25 MR. : Okay. And so, would this EFTA00113429 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 notification been made on the radio for control 2 to even know at 3:15 p.m. was being 3 placed from ZA to R&D? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : So, control may not have 6 even known to key him out. Correct? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : So, it doesn't even mean 9 that, necessarily, would have contacted 10 and told. Whose responsibility would it have 11 been to key him out, at that point? If a 12 lieutenant -- 13 MR. : Now, if -- 14 MR. : -- ordered this? 15 MR. : -- if, if a lieutenant ordered 16 this, Nine South should have called control and 17 said, hey, I got an inmate taken off my count. 18 Because -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- they should know before 21 anybody else know. 22 MR. : So, even if the OIC told 23 - or the SHU - told the Ops Lieutenant, and the 24 Ops Lieutenant was aware, the SHU should have 25 still contacted control and told them? EFTA00113430 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : All right. So, it 3 wouldn't be the Ops Lieutenants? 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : It should be the SHU? 6 MR. : SHU. 7 MR. : And specifically, should 8 it have been, if knows that he's going 9 onto dry cell, should have been that 10 individual, or anyone in the SHU? 11 MR. : Now, , if he were 12 assigned, where he says assigned as not - SHU 13 house unit officer - yeah. He's called control 14 and be, like, yo -- 15 MR. : So, should have 16 done that? 17 MR. : I got one. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : I got one that's coming off the 20 count. 21 MR. : Okay. You mind just 22 initialing and dating that? 23 MR. : How should soon should a 24 notification have been made? 25 MR. : During the course of the day, EFTA00113431 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 sometimes we have (Indiscernible *01:34:55), 2 and then, with the phone calls, you basically 3 (Indiscernible *01:34:55). You have to have an 4 incident report (Indiscernible *01:35:02). 5 MR. : What's (Indiscernible 6 *01:35:15)? How long do they normally have to 7 make that phone call? They'll know, hey, 8 listen, (Indiscernible *01:35:21)? What do you 9 know about (Indiscernible *01:35:26)? 10 MR. (Indiscernible *01:35:29). 11 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:35:31) at 12 3:15. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : When -. 15 MR. : Well, it happened at 16 1:40. 17 MR. : 1:40. 18 MR. : 1:40. 19 MR. : And placed on dry cell 20 MR. : But that -- 21 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 22 *01:35:38). 23 MR. : -- according to that memo, it 24 looks like that he was placed in dry cell at 25 3:15. Before what time should that phone call EFTA00113432 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 have came? 2 MR. : It should have came, you know, 3 an hour after -. Depending on how Nine South 4 is moving. Because Nine South is - Nine South 5 is lacking staff. We won't have a 6 (Indiscernible *01:35:58) of the full staff. 7 So, that means, if they're doing visitations, 8 or if they're doing showers, if they're doing 9 medical, if they're doing psychology, they're 10 doing all library cards and all this other 11 crap, they are moving. Yeah. 12 MR. : But here's the thing, you 13 said, the fourth count -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. -- there's a 4:00 p.m. count 16 coming up, should they have made notification 17 for the phone? 18 MR. : Yes. And should have made it 19 way before, before they forgot, because you 20 can't - the longer you take, the more you could 21 forget. 22 MR. : Should they have made 23 notification before the 10:00 p.m. count? 24 MR. : Yes. They should have made 25 notification a half an hour to - oh, no, a half EFTA00113433 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 an hour to ten minutes after the inmate 2 (Indiscernible *01:36:35). 3 MR. : Just not immediately, 4 correct? 5 MR. : Yeah. Because the longer it 6 takes, the busier you are, you forget 7 something. Maybe you forget your keys. You 8 know? 9 MR. : We were informed that, 10 once it's happening, the movement, that 11 notification should be made. Moving inmate 12 from SHU to R&D dry cell. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Isn't that correct? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : It's only, it shouldn't 17 occur. It should happen immediately. 18 Definitely not more than 15 to 30 minutes 19 later. Correct? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Now, if the SHU staff at 4:00 23 p.m. did the count, as they were supposed to, 24 would they have realized the fact that there 25 was an inmate missing? EFTA00113434 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : If they did the 10:00 p.m. 3 count, as they were supposed to, would they 4 have realized there was an inmate missing? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Now, I don't know if -. 7 have something separate, all together. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 9 Please. I'm just searching. 10 MR. : As being control, right? Is 11 there video monitors for different units? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Was there a monitor for the 14 SHU? 15 MR. : Yes. But there's a small -. 16 There's a camera that's way up on the wall. 17 MR. : Is it, like, a corner -- 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : -- angle? 20 MR. : It's a corner angle. 21 MR. : Let me look, if I had, like, 22 a picture of it. I don't have a picture of 23 that. But -. 24 MR. : I may. But you can start 25 asking your questions about it, though. EFTA00113435 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 MR. : When they do, when you're in 2 control, right, and they're calling you, like, 3 different units are calling you with the count 4 numbers, do you look up to see if they're 5 actually doing the counts? 6 MR. : Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. 7 Because we have work that we have to do, too. 8 Now, the person that's taking the phone calls, 9 that's what you're doing. You're taking the 10 phone calls, verifying the count with the El. 11 The person that's sitting next to you, that's 12 in control with me, he or she may be doing 13 their paperwork, because there's paperwork to 14 be done. We have to count keys. We have to 15 count radios. We have to do all the equipment 16 inside the control center. So, if I'm doing 17 count, that person may be doing the equipment 18 checks. And/or popping doors. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you recall looking 20 up at the camera that night, to see if they 21 were actually doing the counts that night? 22 MR. : I can't really recall because I 23 was helping out with the count, too. Different 24 units. 25 MR. : Do you recall, at any point, EFTA00113436 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 looking up - not just for that night, different 2 nights - looking up and looking at the camera, 3 and looking at the C.O.s and realizing that, 4 hey, listen, they're giving me the count, but I 5 know they haven't done the count? 6 MR. : No. I'm not -. I mean, we 7 relied on trust. I mean, this is a part of 8 your job function. Your major job function. 9 So, we believe that you should have had to have 10 done the count, because Nine South has two 11 officers. So, they count themselves. Any unit 12 that has two officers, they count themselves. 13 Everybody else, they're going to need backup 14 because there's only one officer per unit. 15 MR. : Have you ever heard of counts 16 and rounds not being done at the MCC? 17 MR. : I mean, you know, you heard the 18 rumors from the news. 19 MR. : From the what? 20 MR. : From the news. 21 MR. : Other than this incident, 22 have you heard any rumors of any C.O.s saying, 23 hey, listen, I'm too tired, I'm not doing the 24 counts, or I'm not doing the rounds, or one of 25 them might be, they're just not doing the EFTA00113437 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 counts or the rounds? 2 MR. : No, no, no. I haven't heard 3 that. 4 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 5 pre-filling the rounds and the count sheets? 6 Meaning, they come on shift, they fill out the 7 forms, keep it, and sign at the, you know, 8 initial it, fill it all out, and just pass it 9 on. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : When the time comes. 12 MR. : No. 13 MR. : You never heard of any C.O.s 14 doing anything like that? 15 MR. : No. Because I definitely don't 16 do that. 17 MR. : That's it for now. 18 MR. : Anything we're missing? 19 MR. : You asked me everything -- 20 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 21 MR. and the kitchen sink. 22 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 23 yeah. No. It's all -. Can we just ask you, 24 please, if you can remember anything more about 25 the 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m. count, EFTA00113438 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 specifically if there were any conversations 2 that were had with either the Ops Lieutenant, 3 or the SHU, about, like, ghost counting, or 4 about when you wrote in - if it was, in fact, 5 you, who wrote on those two count slips - or 6 anything at all, that you might help, for us, 7 to clear up. What was done -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- and when it was done. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Because again, in our 12 mind, the count slips are inaccurate. You were 13 going based upon what was said on the, you 14 know, on the El. And their count slips were 15 matching that El. So, for me, I'm still very 16 confused on when that 9S+1 on the R&D, and when 17 the plus one on the ZA count slips were 18 actually done. I know you're saying that you 19 believe that they were done at the time of the 20 10:00 p.m. count, but being that it doesn't 21 look like it was appeared to have been caught 22 until after the - or during - the 12:00 a.m. 23 count, I'm just still not convinced of that. 24 So -- 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00113439 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : -- because to you, you 2 said you believe it was done at the 10:00 p.m., 3 you don't know for a fact. Correct? 4 MR. : No, not for a fact. 5 MR. : You just, being that it 6 shows on the 10:00 p.m., but you don't think 7 that you would have gone back to an earlier 8 count -- 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : -- is what you're saying? 11 Even if someone was, it was caught during a 12 count that you still had the paperwork to? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Do you know what I'm 15 saying? Like, even if there's one count later, 16 which there's only two hours after that count, 17 you don't think you would have, then, gone back 18 to that count that you did just two hours 19 later, and put that plus one on there? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : No? All right. So, 22 you're - to you, though - you're pretty 23 positive you would have done it during the 24 10:00 p.m.? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00113440 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : And do you believe that, 2 then, would be why the Ops Lieutenant would 3 have caught the fact that there is one person 4 assigned to the SHU, who was actually in R&D, 5 and would have corrected the El? 6 MR. : Yes. I believe, I believe that 7 if there was a little bit more communication, 8 we probably would have caught it a lot faster. 9 MR. : Well, it sounds like you 10 knew it. I'm just - now, I'm just super 11 confused if that's when it happened, why the 12 El, you have a count slip that doesn't say on 13 the El. 14 MR. : Like I said, if, you know, if 15 I'm correct, I should have changed it. 16 MR. : You should have changed 17 the El? 18 MR. : I should have just changed it, 19 regardless. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Without doing the ghosting. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : I should have changed it. 24 That's why I said I think I dropped the ball on 25 that one. EFTA00113441 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : All right. So, you 2 believe it was a ghost count? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And you believe, though, 5 in order for it to be a ghost count, an Ops 6 Lieutenant would have said it's okay to ghost 7 count? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : And the only Ops 10 Lieutenant that was on there was 11 and she didn't make the change until the 12 12:00 p.m. count. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And do you see where that 15 doesn't add up? 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yeah. 17 MR. : So, in thinking about 18 that, is there anything you think that maybe 19 you're a little bit inaccurate on? 20 MR. : I mean, if, you know, like, I'm 21 just wish that I, like, caught it and changed 22 it a lot earlier. You know, I should have just 23 changed it. 24 MR. : Yeah. And again, my main 25 thing is, I think you're beating yourself up on EFTA00113442 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that because I don't think that there was 2 anything for you to catch. You didn't know. 3 But I could be mistaken on that, and that's 4 where I'm just really hoping that, if you can 5 think about it, and you can kind of put 6 together, oh, yeah, that is what happened, or, 7 okay, that's what - that's how it transpired, 8 that's how it went down. If you could just 9 contact us, myself or and just let us 10 know. That would be greatly -. We would so 11 appreciate it because when we do these things, 12 we got to be accurate. The highest levels of 13 the government are going to get - or look at 14 these things. And being that these counts are 15 off, that's kind of a big thing. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Especially with regard 18 to, you know, with the night before, and the 19 morning of, Epstein -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- being found. And so, 22 we just want to make sure that we're being as 23 accurate as possible. I'll give you a card so 24 that, if you can think of anything, you can 25 certainly contact me. And we can modify 128 EFTA00113443 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 whatever it is that needs to be modified, or do 2 a supplemental. All right. Any questions for 3 us? 4 MR. : No, sir. 5 MR. : No? All right. Well, we 6 can't thank you enough for your time. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. Thank you, too. 8 MR. : All right. 9 MR. : And I hope I helped a little 10 bit. 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Yes. Thank you, sir. 13 Appreciate you. God Bless you. I'm going to 14 turn the recorder off now. It is certainly 15 4:19 p.m. This is , Senior 16 Special Agent with DOJ/OIG, and I'm turning off 17 the recorder. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113444 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00113445