EFTA00113577.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 MICHAEL THOMAS 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 17, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00113577 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 MICHAEL THOMAS 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 14 DOUGLAS MITCHELL, ESQ. 15 MONTEL FIGGINS, ESQ. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113578 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is . I'm a senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 6 This interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 7 employee Michael Thomas is being conducted as 8 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is June 17, 2021 and the time is 11 10:07 a.m. This interview is being conducted 12 at the Law Offices of Montel Figgins located at 13 Newark, New 14 Jersey. Also present are DOJ OIG Special Agent 15 BOP employee Michael Thomas, Mr. 16 Thomas' attorney, Douglas Mitchell from the Law 17 Offices of Montel Figgins, and 18 , Union Representative and Officer 19 Specialist at the MCC. This interview will be 20 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 21 . Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start again, I am DOJ OIG Senior 24 Special Agent 25 EFTA00113579 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 MR. : I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 2 3 MR. MITCHELL: I am Douglas Mitchell, 4 attorney Douglas Mitchell, Law Offices of 5 Montel Figgins. Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E-L-L. 6 MR. 7 , President of Local 3148. 8 MR. THOMAS: Michael Thomas, T-H-O-M-A-S. 9 MR. : Thank you all. Mr. 10 Thomas, you are here today as a subject in this 11 DOJ OIG investigation. This DOJ investigation 12 concerns your alleged misconduct to include 13 allegations of false statements, job 14 performance failure, security failure, and 15 reporting false information. This is an 16 official DOJ OIG investigation and you are 17 being asked to voluntarily provide answers to 18 our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 19 interview with the DOJ OIG? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 21 MR. : Thank you, sir. Now we 22 have a form here for our employees who provide 23 voluntary answers to our questions. It's the 24 U.S. Department of Justice Office of the 25 Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to EFTA00113580 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 2 Voluntary Basis. It says: You are being asked 3 to provide information as part of an 4 investigation being conducted by the Office of 5 the Inspector General. This investigation is 6 being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 7 General Act of 1978 as amended. This 8 investigation pertains to your alleged false 9 statements, job performance failure, security 10 failure, and reporting false information. This 11 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 12 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 13 action will be taken against you if you choose 14 not to answer questions. Any statement you 15 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 16 criminal proceedings or agency proceedings, 17 disciplinary proceedings, or both. And 18 obviously, we have the DPA. Then there's a 19 waiver section. I understand the Warnings and 20 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 21 make a statement and answer questions. No 22 promises or threats have been made to me and no 23 pressure or coercion of any kind has been used 24 against me. Now if you want to take a look or 25 anybody - the attorney or anybody - wants to EFTA00113581 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 take a look. That was read verbatim. But if 2 you agree, there is a section that says 3 employee signature. And then you can just 4 print your name. 5 MR. : Just print your name right 6 below it. 7 MR. : Thank you, Mr. Thomas, 8 for signing. I am going to sign as the 9 signature of the Office of the Inspector 10 General Special Agent. Again, this is 11 and I'm going to print my name. 12 Special Agent , can you sign as the 13 signature of witness. 14 MR. : This is Special Agent 15 I'm signing as signature of witness. 16 MR. : Thank you, sir. Special 17 Agent , can you just fill in the date and 18 time and then write in the place. So the date 19 is again, 6/17/2021 and the time is 10:11 a.m. 20 Thank you. Okay. And since there's a union 21 representative present, I have a form for you 22 as well if you just want to take a look and 23 review that. I'm not going to read that out 24 loud for the record. 25 MR. : I've read them many a EFTA00113582 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 times. 2 MR. : You don't need to 3 (Indiscernible *00:05:09) all that. Thank you, 4 Mr. for signing where you said that 5 you certify that you appeared as an official 6 OIG investigative interview as a union 7 representative and was provided a copy of this 8 advisory and signing it and dating it. I am 9 going to sign where it says name of OIG special 10 agent. It actually doesn't ask for my 11 signature, so I will first print and then sign 12 next to it. I'm dating it 6/17/2021. 13 MR. : Mr. Mitchell, is someone on 14 the line? 15 MR. MITCHELL: Well I was just setting up 16 a conference so Mr. Figgins could dial in. No 17 one's there. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Oh, okay. Is he going to 20 be dialing in? 21 MR. MITCHELL: Yeah, he's going to join us 22 shortly. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. MITCHELL: That's nothing. EFTA00113583 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : So shortly, attorney 2 Montel Figgins will be dialing in. Alright. 3 So did you understand the OIG form Mr. Thomas? 4 MR. : Thomas. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes I did. 6 MR. : Great. Thank you. 7 before starting, I would like to place you 8 under oath. Can you raise your right hand 9 please? Mr. Thomas, do you swear to tell the 10 truth and nothing but the truth during this 11 interview? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I do. 13 MR. : Thank you, sir. If 14 there's anything that you don't understand or 15 any kind of questions, please just ask for me 16 to uh 17 MR. THOMAS: I surely will. 18 MR. : Yeah. If you don't, I'_ 19 rephrase it. 20 MR. THOMAS: The language where if I don't 21 understand, I will say something. 22 MR. : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 23 Alright. So what's your current home address? 24 MR. THOMAS: , Keasbey, 25 New Jersey 08832. EFTA00113584 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Thank you., sir. And 2 what's your date of birth? 3 MR. THOMAS: 4 MR. : Do you happen to have any 5 kind of ID on you just so we 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : -- know we're talking to 8 the right person? Okay. I'm looking at a New 9 Jersey auto driver license and the name on it 10 is Michael A. Thomas and the picture does match 11 the person sitting in front of me. Okay. 12 What's your highest level of education? 13 MR. THOMAS: Some college. I completed 14 high school. 15 MR. : Okay. How much college 16 did you have? 17 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't add to a little 18 bit. Correspondence courses when I was in the 19 military and everything like that. 20 MR. : Okay. So was there like 21 a course of study that you -? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. 23 MR. : No? Just required. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. Just like basic courses 25 and stuff like that. EFTA00113585 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : And around when was that? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, 2002, 2001. I'm thinking 3 here and there. 4 MR. : Sure. Was it all from 5 one institution? 6 MR. THOMAS: It was some online courses 7 and stuff like that that I took. 8 MR. : Okay. Cool. While you 9 were with the military? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, while I was in the 11 military. It was all done while I was in the 12 military. 13 MR. : Perfect. And what did 14 you do prior to working with the BOP? 15 MR. THOMAS: I was at a Target - back 16 room. 17 MR. : Okay. And how long did 18 you do that? 19 MR. THOMAS: I did that for three months 20 before I got this job here. 21 MR. : So it was primarily the 22 military previously? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I got out of the 24 military in '06 and then I started this in '07. 25 MR. : Great. Thank you. EFTA00113586 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. THOMAS: Started with the BOP. Sorry. 2 MR. : Thank you for your 3 service. When were you in the military? 4 MR. THOMAS: I started - I went in '98 to 5 2006. 6 MR. : And what branch? 7 MR. THOMAS: Army. 8 MR. : Army? 9 MR. THOMAS: Active duty the whole time. 10 MR. : And when you -. Sorry. 11 MR. THOMAS: Demine Harris. 12 MR. : Okay. So we're, uh - the 13 attorney is getting on the phone with Mr. 14 Higgins. And with the Army, when you got out 15 of the Army, what was your rank? 16 MR. THOMAS: E4. 17 MR. : E4 sergeant? Is that a 18 sergeant? 19 MR. THOMAS: No, that's a specialist. 20 MR. : That's a specialist? 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Okay. What was your -? 23 MR. THOMAS: Highest rank attainable E5 24 (Indiscernible *00:08:42) 25 MR. : Okay. So you got to ES EFTA00113587 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and then came back down to E4. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : Was it honorary 4 discharge? 5 MR. THOMAS: General discharge under 6 honorable conditions. 7 MR. : Okay. Great. And when 8 you were in the Army, what was it that you were 9 -? 10 MR. THOMAS: My MOS? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. THOMAS: 13 Bravo. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Sorry if I answered that but 15 16 MR. : No-no-no. Please. I was 17 trying to figure out the word to use. 18 MR. THOMAS: MOS. 19 MR. : Perfect. And how long 20 have you served with the Federal Bureau of 21 Prisons? 22 MR. THOMAS: As of April 1, 14 years. 23 MR. : Fourteen years? And what 24 was your enter on duty date? 25 MR. THOMAS: April 1, 2007. EFTA00113588 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 MR. : Okay. And when did you 2 graduate from BOP training? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know the exact date. 4 MR. : But you did attend? 5 MR. THOMAS: It's usually a year of 6 probationary or something like that. Oh, 7 you're talking about the training at FLETC? 8 MR. : At FLETC. Correct. So 9 the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. 10 MR. THOMAS: November of '07. 11 MR. : Okay. And that was for 12 correctional officer training? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 14 MR. : Perfect, sir. And when 15 and where was your first assignment with the 16 BOP? 17 MR. THOMAS: My whole career has been at 18 the MCC. 19 MR. : Okay. That makes it 20 easy. And what positions have you held while 21 you were there? Just briefly. 22 MR. THOMAS: Correctional officer and 23 material handler specialist. 24 MR. : Just those two? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113589 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 MR. : Okay. And what does a 2 material handler specialist do? What does that 3 mean? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a -. 5 MR. : What are your job duties 6 and responsibilities? 7 MR. THOMAS: It's the commissary trust 8 fund. It's the trust fund in the BOP. 9 MR. : Okay. Does that mean 10 that you handle -? 11 MR. THOMAS: You deal with different 12 positions from laundry, commissary, back room 13 supply, and that's mainly - yeah, that's mainly 14 it. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : And what was your grade 18 level? 19 MR. THOMAS: WS4 - WS4 Step 5 I guess. 20 MR. : Okay. What's your 21 current cell phone number? 22 MR. THOMAS: 23 MR. : Perfect. And we won't 24 contact you. We'll go through your attorney. 25 But it's just a question we ask. And your EFTA00113590 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 current email address? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, 3 MR. : Thank you, sir. And when 4 did you last work at the MCC? Physically 5 present? 6 MR. THOMAS: Um, August 10th. 7 MR. : 2019? 8 MR. THOMAS: 2019. I'm sorry. 9 MR. : And did you work both on 10 August 9th and August 10th, 2019? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. And was that in 13 the SHU from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. on both 14 days? 15 MR. THOMAS: On both days? What do you 16 mean -? Yes. Yes. Yes. 17 MR. : So on August 9th, 18 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 19 MR. THOMAS: The night to -. 20 MR. : Then again August 10th 21 8:00 a.m. - or 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. And 22 that was in the special housing unit? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. : Also known as the SHU. 25 Who was your supervisor when you last worked at EFTA00113591 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 the MCC? Or did you have one in particular? 2 MR. THOMAS: My supervisor is Ms. 3 MR. 4 MR. THOMAS: Ms. 5 MR. 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Great. Thank you. So 8 just briefly, overall, what training would you 9 attend while -. So I know you said you did the 10 CO training down at FLETC. But what other 11 training would you conduct while you're with 12 the BOP? 13 MR. THOMAS: That I would conduct? 14 MR. : Yeah. Like what training 15 were you provided when you were with the BOP? 16 Like annual training -. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, annual training. 18 Annual training that's usually done sometime - 19 well it last from January to sometimes March 20 from what I can remember. But that's annual 21 training. AART I think it's called. 22 MR. : Annual Refresher 23 Training? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. There you go. 25 MR. : Okay. Great. Is there EFTA00113592 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 any other training that they would provide? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. 3 MR. : Like did you ever attend 4 like SHU quarterly training or anything like 5 that? 6 MR. THOMAS: I have when I was off. So 7 yes, I've done SHU quarterly training. Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. So would you do 9 the annual training every year? 10 MR. THOMAS: Annual training is every 11 year. Yes. 12 MR. : And what would be the 13 last time you think you conducted SHU training? 14 SHU quarterly training? 15 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't remember. 16 MR. : No, that's fine. 17 Alright. We have - this is actually your 18 training records. Do you want to just -? I'm 19 not going to ask you like to certify that these 20 things are you know - it's just to look at it 21 and say for the most part, does that look like 22 the training that you conducted. It shows from 23 the most recent to -. To the uh, through the 24 past. 25 MR. THOMAS: Are these annual refresher EFTA00113593 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 training courses or -? 2 MR. : This is just like your 3 training record. We ask like hey, can we have 4 a BOP employee's training record. They print 5 something like this out which just shows that 6 like on these dates were the dates that you 7 completed training. So it looks like you 8 completed the last annual refresher training on 9 4/5, which is - this is the annual refresher 10 training course syllabus. This is the sign-in 11 sheet. So I believe that would be the last 12 time that you conducted your annual refresher 13 training. And like for instance I believe that 14 would be -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 16 MR. : -- your name and would 17 that be your signature next to it? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. Great. So just 20 point being, the last time you did conduct 21 annual refresher training in April of 2019. 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Awesome. Any time I 24 provide you something, I'm just going to ask 25 for you to initial and date it just so that EFTA00113594 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 there's no confusion of what actually was 2 provided to you. And what you actually looked 3 at. And it's not - not certifying to the 4 accuracy of this. It's just certifying that 5 this is what I showed you. 6 MR. THOMAS: Any particular place? 7 MR. : Up top would be great. 8 MR. THOMAS: Sign or initial? 9 MR. : Just initial and date. 10 So again, it's 6/17/21. So I'm going to take 11 that this is not supposed to be connected. I'm 12 going to take just your training records out of 13 this because they've got a lot of your daily 14 assignments in here and stuff. 15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 16 MR. : This was all supposed to 17 be attached to that. So what you'll see is 18 just so that we're on the same page is just all 19 the way from 2007 up to '08, '09, 2019. 20 MR. MITCHELL: And when you say training, 21 these were actual classes? 22 MR. : It's just what they have 23 in the BOP system. Every time he conducts a 24 training, they log it in so they can keep a 25 record of what training individuals conducted. EFTA00113595 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 2 MR. : And for this, the main 3 point for this was that again, you did take the 4 annual refresher training in April of 2019. 5 Any questions on that? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. : Any concerns? 8 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 9 MR. : Great. Thank you, sir. 10 Can you just kind of go through and find the 11 Daily Schedule? There we go. His roster would 12 be in there. Alright. And at that annual 13 refresher training, like just roughly what do 14 you recall that you had learned there? 15 MR. THOMAS: It's a bunch of different 16 classes. 17 MR. : Like ethics. Correct? 18 MR. THOMAS: It goes from somebody 19 speaking to somebody putting something up on 20 the teleprompter and then you're reading off 21 it's a variety of classes depending on how the 22 instructor at that time would present the 23 class. 24 MR. : Okay. Great. Let me 25 see. So just to bring us back to this. It EFTA00113596 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 looks like the way that the BOP system is - 2 this report that I just showed you. It looks 3 like on 4/5 there's a ton of different classes. 4 And that just looks like probably what the 5 annual refresher training covered. It would be 6 like ethics, infectious disease, international 7 security, key control, air spray, prison rape, 8 report writing, self-defense, Weapons of Mass 9 Destruction. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. But at different 11 times. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. THOMAS: They're a bunch of different 14 classes. 15 MR. : Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. 16 And did they ever, at the MCC, did they ever 17 provide you with like post orders and things 18 like that? You know like -. 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Post orders. 20 MR. : Post orders and theil 21 guidance and polices and things. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. Awesome. Is there 24 something that when they provided you did they 25 say that you had to review them or they just EFTA00113597 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 give them to you? How does that work? 2 MR. THOMAS: They're posted on every 3 housing unit. And -. 4 MR. : They're all -. So when 5 you go to a housing unit, the orders are 6 actually in there? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. They're in a book. 8 MR. : They're in a book? 9 MR. THOMAS: One of those books. 10 MR. : Okay. And do they ask 11 you to like review them or how -? I'm just 12 wondering how MCC goes about it. What do they 13 do with making sure their correctional officers 14 know what the policies and procedures are in 15 their institution? 16 MR. THOMAS: You have to sign them when 17 you go to -. You're supposed to sign them when 18 you go to a post. 19 MR. : Okay. So like if, f 20 instance -. 21 MR. THOMAS: It's on your own to review 22 them and everything like that. 23 MR. : I got you. So have you 24 ever been provided, reviewed, and signed the 25 special housing unit order posts? EFTA00113598 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. Do you remember - 3 would that be like every time you're in there 4 or would that be like initial time? Or how 5 does that work? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. It's -. If I'm not 7 mistaken, I think it's just to whenever you go 8 in there. The one time you go in there, it's - 9 10 MR. : So like the first time? 11 MR. THOMAS: Every quarter you have to, if 12 I'm not mistaken, you have to sign it. 13 MR. : Alright. 14 MR. THOMAS: Every quarter. So like if 15 you go in there between February to April. The 16 first initial time you go in there, you sign 17 it. And that was it. It's not something you 18 sign every day. 19 MR. : Right. But like for 20 instance in 2019, would you have been provided 21 it and had to sign it? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: It definitely had to be in 25 there somewhere. EFTA00113599 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And you did? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure - . I don't know. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 5 MR. : But you have been 6 provided -. 7 MR. THOMAS: I have signed them before 8 yes. But I don't know if I (Indiscernible 9 *00:18:34). 10 MR. : Sure. No problem. What 11 is the BOP of MCC policy on conducting counts 12 and rounds? Just broadly speaking. What you're 13 like sentence or two. 14 MR. THOMAS: My interpretation of it? I 15 don't. 16 MR. : Your understanding of 17 let's start with rounds. What are you supposed 18 to do with rounds at the MCC? And we can even 19 move it directly to the special housing unit so 20 we don't get confused. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : In the special housing 23 unit, how are you supposed to conduct a round? 24 MR. THOMAS: You're supposed to conduct 25 the rounds every 30 minutes not at the same EFTA00113600 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 time but roughly about every 30 minutes. 2 MR. : So it's every 30 minutes 3 like -. 4 MR. THOMAS: Not every 30 minutes on the 5 hour or anything like that. Try to -. 6 MR. : So like a 30 to 40=minute 7 gap. There's like a 10-minute I guess window 8 that you're supposed to conduct it within every 9 30 minutes. Is that right? So it's not 10 exactly like -. 11 MR. THOMAS: It's not exactly -. 12 MR. : 8:00, 8:30, 9:00. 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's not exactly 8:00, 14 8:30. Just every 30 minutes. So if you go at 15 1:22, then -- 16 MR. : Sure. 17 MR. THOMAS: -- you should go at sometime 18 between 1:52 or whatever the case may be. It's 19 just every 30 minutes. 20 MR. : And is that for a whole 21 24-hour day? Every 30 minutes? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. For every 24-hours. 23 Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. So there's no like 25 you don't have to do it from this time to that EFTA00113601 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 time. 2 MR. THOMAS: No. It's for a 24-hour day. 3 MR. : And how do you conduct a 4 round? What are you supposed to do when you 5 conduct a round in the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: It depends on the time 7 period. 8 MR. : Can you just explain to 9 that a little bit? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well if you're just walk 11 around. 12 MR. : Do you -? 13 MR. THOMAS: And look in the glass. 14 MR. : Are you supposed to be 15 able to see a person and make sure that they're 16 there? 17 MR. THOMAS: You're supposed to see a 18 person and make sure they're there. 19 MR. : And alive and well? 20 MR. THOMAS: Ugh, see human flesh and 21 everything like that. Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. And that they're 23 not in distress or need anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: That they're not -? 25 MR. : They're not in distress EFTA00113602 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or need anything? 2 MR. THOMAS: Under distress and Ye r . 3 MR. : Okay. And what is a 4 count to your understanding? A cell count. Or 5 an inmate count. In the special housing unit. 6 MR. THOMAS: An institution count? 7 MR. : No. What's the - so when 8 you're working in the special housing unit, do 9 you not have to do a count on the weekdays from 10 4:00 p.m., 10:00 p.m., 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 11 5:00 a.m. -- 12 MR. THOMAS: You're doing the institution 13 count. The standard - it's a BOP count. It's 14 an institution count - well I phrase it as an 15 institution count. 16 MR. : So how do you - when 17 you're in the SHU, how do you conduct a count 18 though? 19 MR. THOMAS: Same way you do a round. 20 MR. : Oh. 21 MR. THOMAS: So you just walk around, 22 verify live tissue and everything like that. 23 And you see a person. 24 MR. : Are you supposed to count 25 the numbers this time though? So as opposed to EFTA00113603 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 just going - in a round, I'm assuming you don't 2 actually call out the numbers and certify a 3 certain number. You just go through and make 4 sure everybody's okay. With a count, is it - 5 you have to -? 6 MR. THOMAS: In a count, you call out the 7 numbers. And in a round you just verify. 8 MR. : Okay. And then what do 9 you do after you get the numbers in the special 10 housing unit? 11 MR. THOMAS: Tally it up and put it on a 12 piece of paper. 13 MR. : Okay. Like a count slip? 14 MR. THOMAS: The count slips get time on 15 the count slips. 16 MR. : Okay. Great. And were 17 you provided training on conducting rounds and 18 counts at MCC? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. When would have 21 you received that training? During the annual 22 refresher training? Annual SHU training? 23 MR. THOMAS: Annuals yes. Annual 24 refresher training. And SHU training. Either 25 or. EFTA00113604 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 MR. : Okay. So any other 2 training they would provide on that or are they 3 the two primary times you would get that? 4 MR. THOMAS: That's the two primary times. 5 MR. : Okay. During your time 6 at the MCC, how often would you be assigned to 7 the special housing unit? 8 MR. THOMAS: It depends if it was for 9 overtime. Well besides when, just, well, 10 assigned to be, just assigning for overtime. 11 MR. : So whenever you would 12 conduct overtime you would be there? Or just - 13 14 MR. THOMAS: Well if it was open and 15 that's what was open. Yeah. That's what it 16 would be. 17 MR. : So in your - since 2007 18 through 2019, did you do it fairly regularly? 19 MR. THOMAS: Fairly regularly. I mean -. 20 MR. : So you're pretty familiar 21 with -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm familiar with both from 23 2007 to 2000 I haven't been a correctional 24 officer that whole time. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00113605 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. THOMAS: I was if I'm not mistaken, I 2 got the material handler position in 2010 or 3 2012 - something in between that time frame? 4 MR. : So I guess from 2007 from 5 the time that you -- 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : You would do it as like 8 as a quarterly posted bid? 9 MR. THOMAS: Oh I never did it as a - 10 can't recall ever doing it as a 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: I've done SHU more than a few 13 times. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So point being is you're 17 familiar with the way the SHU is operated? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I'm familiar with how 19 everything goes in the SHU. 20 MR. : Alright. Awesome. So 21 aside from doing the counts and rounds, what 22 other training would they provide you in order 23 to make sure that you were prepared to work in 24 the SHU? Would they provide like suicide 25 prevention training? Things like that? EFTA00113606 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 MR. THOMAS: If I'm not mistaken, that's 2 on the ART. If I'm not mistaken, that's on the 3 ART. 4 MR. : Suicide? Is on the ART? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's one of the 6 courses in ART. 7 MR. : Okay. What is? The 8 course in ART? I'm sorry, I'm just trying to - 9 10 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't tell you 11 the exact name of the course or anything like 12 that. 13 MR. : What you're saying is ART 14 has a SHU course? Is that what you're saying? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It has -. No. I'm 16 saying it has what you just said a suicide 17 prevention course. I'm sure it's something 18 like that in ART. 19 MR. : Oh, okay. But I was 20 trying to use suicide prevention as like an 21 example of a training that you're received to 22 be able to work in the SHU. What I'm asking is 23 like -. To make sure I could say -. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think that's an 25 actual course to work on the SHU - to work EFTA00113607 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 specifically with the SHU. It's just an actual 2 course that they provide at ART. It's not 3 specific to just one housing unit. It's just 4 an annual refresher like -. 5 MR. : SO that's - that specific 6 suicide. So I guess what I'm asking is, what 7 training did they provide to you to make sure 8 you could work in the SHU? Like - or. Let's 9 put it this way. During the SHU quarterly 10 training, what type of training would they 11 provide to you? 12 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember at 13 all. 14 MR. : You don't remember. 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember often. 16 MR. : No. That's totally fine. 17 MR. THOMAS: Just regular SHU training. 18 MR. : But you have received the 19 suicide prevention training though at the MCC 20 annual refresher training? 21 MR. THOMAS: At ART. 22 MR. : Okay. And what just very 23 briefly, what types of things would they teach 24 you at the suicide prevention training? 25 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Um. I'm trying — urn. EFTA00113608 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 It's just training like I don't know what's 2 specific with the training. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a um. They tell you how 5 many happens in a year or in a quarter or 6 something like that. I remember that they tell 7 you cases of how people committed suicide. 8 Sometimes it's signs to watch for suicide. Um. 9 That's basically all I can remember with that. 10 I don't' remember the training exactly. 11 MR. : Sure. That's fine. Now 12 as you said, you worked from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 13 a.m. on both August 9th and August 10th, 14 correct? In the SHU? 15 MR. THOMAS: August - well it's August 16 10th I think. If I'm not mistaken it's -. 17 MR. : But August 9th and August 18 10th you did 8:00 a.m. till - 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : I'm sorry. I me- 21 a.m. to 8 a.m. on both days. 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Not both days. 23 MR. THOMAS: See this really has me 24 confused. If let's say the shift started at 25 12:00. Usually the shift starts at 0001. EFTA00113609 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 MR. : Correct. 2 MR. THOMAS: So if I came in, I came in on 3 the 9th, but the shift didn't start until 4 midnight. It's from midnight to eight in the 5 morning. 6 MR. : Right. So what I'm 7 saying is midnight on August 9th. So you know 8 9 MR. THOMAS: Which is August 10th. 10 MR. : You probably got there on 11 August 8th. 12 MR. THOMAS: No-no-no. So I didn't work - 13 14 MR. : So here's your daily 15 assignment roster. I just want to make sure. 16 So August 10th, August 9th. It says that you 17 were in the SHU both days. 18 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I do -. 19 MR. : I thought we talked about 20 that earlier. I just wanted to make sure. So 21 at the start of this interview, we talked about 22 23 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So I did SHU. I 24 didn't' recall that I did SHU two days in a 25 row. EFTA00113610 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right yeah. 2 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 3 MR. : So I don't think you kind 4 of called out maybe the two days leading up but 5 you still did your overtime shift. 6 MR. THOMAS: These are all overtime shifts 7 for me. 8 MR. : Yeah, I know. 9 MR. THOMAS: None of this is regular shift 10 for me. This is all overtime for me. 11 MR. : Okay. Great. So just 12 the point being I just wanted to make sure you 13 did work there on both August 9th and August 14 10th from that midnight to 8:00 a.m. shift. 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Okay. Yes. 16 MR. : Awesome. Just because 17 presented this to you. DO you mind just 18 initialing and dating it? Does that appear to 19 be your daily schedule for it looks like it 20 started back on June 29, 2019 up until 21 8/10/2019. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. This is not a daily 23 schedule for me. This is all overtime. As you 24 can see, it's all overtime. 25 MR. : Sorry. The daily EFTA00113611 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 assignments for overtime. 2 MR. THOMAS: For overtime. Yeah. These 3 are all -. 4 MR. : They're all your overtime 5 shifts. 6 MR. THOMAS: These are all - this is no- 7 my daily 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. THOMAS: So it's just all overtime. 10 MR. : And as you mentioned, 11 that's why it says the number of times in here 12 where it's the SHU. 13 MR. THOMAS: It's the SHU and internal 14 mostly. 15 MR. : Right. Because they were 16 overtime shifts working in the SHU. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 18 MR. : Thank you for that 19 clarification. Thanks. And what are your 20 overall duties and responsibilities when you 21 are assigned to the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: Maintain the count of 23 inmates. Make sure the inmates are fed. 24 Depending on what shift you're referring to, 25 take over a shift, make sure they get their EFTA00113612 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 showers. Um. Make sure they're counted and 2 that's basically it. 3 MR. : Okay. And are there any 4 special requirements for inmates who are 5 assigned to the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: Not that I know of. No. 7 MR. : So are inmates that are 8 assigned to the SHU -. Unless they have some 9 classification where they could be hurt by 10 another cellmate, are they all supposed to have 11 cellmates? 12 MR. THOMAS: Classification. Like I don't 13 know if they still - some if I can recall, some 14 a cell and rec alone. Maybe they were in a 15 fight and they, what's it called. When they 16 keep away from all inmates. Um. But other 17 than that some could be cell rec alone. 18 MR. : So for the most part, 19 should say, are inmates in the SHU supposed to 20 have a cellmate? 21 MR. THOMAS: That's not -. I don't know. 22 MR. : My understanding was that 23 they're all supposed to have a cellmate unless 24 they meet some kind of a criteria like they're 25 a certain type of an inmate who would be harmed EFTA00113613 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 by another ceilmate. Is that not correct? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 3 MR. : You're not sure? 4 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. 5 MR. : Fair enough. No problem. 6 Have you ever received training for medical 7 emergencies with inmates? 8 MR. THOMAS: In the ART. 9 MR. : In ART? 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Were you also an 12 instructor? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never instructed. 14 MR. : You've never been an 15 instructor? Never like a CPR instructor or 16 anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. No I'm not a CPR 18 instructor. 19 MR. : Okay. Alright. So for 20 medical emergencies, the ART is pretty much 21 when they cover that? Do they cover that also 22 during SHU training? Medical emergencies for 23 inmates? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. No. I don't 25 think so. EFTA00113614 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : You're not sure. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. 3 MR. : Like you got at annual 4 training? 5 MR. THOMAS: The annual training. 6 MR. : Alright. Who is or was 7 inmate Jeffrey Epstein reg number 76318-054? 8 MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you recall when 10 Epstein was housed at the MCC? Does July 6, 11 2019 through August 10, 2019 sound familiar? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember when he 13 first got there. But I don't remember when 14 exactly he first got there. 15 MR. : So these we just - this 16 is just that overtime roster. When it looks 17 like you were assigned to the SHU pretty 18 regularly from 7/11/2019 to 8/10/2019. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : When you were there, was 21 he in the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: Sometimes. 25 MR. : I'm assuming not the EFTA00113615 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 whole time. 2 MR. THOMAS: Not 3 MR. : Because I think he was on 4 suicide watch. But when you were there he was 5 - you know him from being in the SHU though? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've seen him before in 7 the SHU yes. Absolutely. 8 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Do you 9 know why Epstein was assigned to the SHU? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : No? They never told you 12 why? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : Okay. Was it high- 15 profile? For suicide? Safety concerns? 16 Anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: It could have been a number 18 of reasons that, his case was high-profile, 19 whatever the case may be. 20 MR. : Okay. And was Epstein 21 assigned to the SHU on both August 9th and 22 August 10th, 2019? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. And we kind of 25 just covered this, but do you know how long he EFTA00113616 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was assigned to the SHU? Again, I believe it was July and August aside from those timeframes. Correct? MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. MR. : Yeah. That's fine. What was Epstein's routine while he was assigned at the SHU? MR. THOMAS: I don't know. MR. : Because you did the overnight shift, I can understand that. So are you aware that like during the day he would meet with his attorneys every day? And then he would be - so from basically 8:00 a.m. until like 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m. he was? MR. THOMAS: I honestly really don't know. MR. : You don't even know. So when you worked in the SHU was it always that 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. shift? In the SHU? MR. THOMAS: Well I mean I'm sure I have some evening watch ones. I don't know if I have some evening watch or not. But I'm sure I've done evening watch or anything like that but I didn't look exactly at that. Maybe that's all morning watch. This is all morning watch. Oh that's day watch internal. EFTA00113617 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 MR. : So these like for July 2 and August? 3 MR. THOMAS: It's all yeah. This is all 4 morning watch. 5 MR. : So they would all be from 6 12:00 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's all 12:00 a.m. 8 MR. : And how is that 9 identified as that -? 10 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Right here where you see 11 MW is for morning watch. They say DW is for 12 day watch. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But it's all morning. 15 MR. : So all morning watch 16 while Epstein was assigned to the SHU. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. Cool. Now did you 19 ever have any communication with Epstein during 20 his stay at the MCC? 21 MR. THOMAS: One particular time. 22 MR. : Can you tell me about 23 that particular time? 24 MR. THOMAS: He was on suicide watch and I 25 was watching him on suicide watch. EFTA00113618 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : Oh you actually watched 2 him when he was on suicide watch? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 MR. : Alright. Not while you 5 were in the Shu though? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. Not while I was in the 7 SHU. 8 MR. : Alright. When you were 9 watching him, was that a positive or a negative 10 experience? 11 MR. THOMAS: Just - I don't. I can't 12 label it under positive or negative. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. THOMAS: It was just watching him. 15 MR. : Like were his 16 interactions with you - were they like -? 17 MR. THOMAS: Oh, he spoke with me and 18 everything like that. 19 MR. : Was he pleasant? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, he was pleasant. He 21 wasn't mean or anything like that. He was 22 really incoherent where he was at. But other 23 than that, he was just fine. He just sat there 24 and talked with me until I mean the whole six 25 hours. EFTA00113619 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. And do you 2 remember around when that took place? 3 MR. THOMAS: I really can't recall. 4 MR. : Would have that have been 5 -? Does it say it on this? Up. Actually it 6 does on this thing it says suicide watch. 7 Would it be on 7/23/2019? 8 MR. THOMAS: That could have been his. 9 That could have been that one. 10 MR. : Okay. So on 7/23/2019, I 11 believe he had an incident within his cell. 12 And are you familiar with -? So when you were 13 watching him on suicide watch. Do you know why 14 he was there? 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh, for suicide watch. 16 mean it's -. 17 MR. : Yeah. Did you hear that 18 he tried to take his life? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I've heard that. As 20 you can see, I was internal that day. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: Internal you just go up and 23 you count all the housing units and everything 24 like that. And I guess he tried to commit 25 suicide. And then we brought him down to the EFTA00113620 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 suicide room. And I sat there and watched him 2 for - I don't know what six hours, seven hours, 3 whatever that is. 4 MR. : But prior to them sitting 5 down or even after, did they inform you why he 6 was there? 7 MR. THOMAS: Well it's suicide watch. 8 It's pretty self-explanatory? 9 MR. : But they didn't provide 10 you details? 11 MR. THOMAS: No-no. Just if you're there 12 on suicide watch it's kind of self-explanatory. 13 But if you go on -. Depending. Suicide watch 14 is one thing and observation watch is another. 15 But if it says suicide watch, I'm sure he was 16 on suicide watch because he was in a smock and 17 um -. 18 MR. : What does a smock mean? 19 MR. THOMAS: It's just a cover that you 20 put over so you don't have any clothes or 21 anything like that. 22 MR. : Okay. Is it so they 23 can't harm themselves? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, so they don't harm 25 themselves. Mm-hmm. EFTA00113621 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 MR. : Okay. And were you the 2 only individual on that, observing him during 3 suicide watch? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I was the only one 5 watching him that time. 6 MR. : And you said there is a 7 difference between suicide watch and 8 psychological observation. What is the 9 difference? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well psychological 11 observation you have your clothes. 12 MR. : Okay. But I mean as far 13 as you as a CO. 14 MR. THOMAS: There's no difference. 15 You're still watching them. There's no 16 difference. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: You're still just watching 19 them in the suicide. In observation, you just 20 have clothes and suicide watch you're in a 21 smock and a blanket. 22 MR. : Okay. And did you 23 receive any instructions with regard to Epstein 24 when he was assigned to the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00113622 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Specific to Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : No. And are you aware 4 that Epstein was assigned any cellmates when he 5 was assigned to the SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: Um, I'm sure he was. Maybe 7 he was. I don't really recall. 8 MR. : So you don't recall if he 9 had a cellmate or not? 10 MR. THOMAS: I know one time he had a 11 cellmate. I don't recall like if he was 12 assigned a specific cellmate or not. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Or for his case whatever the 15 case, but I'm sure he had a cellmate. Unless 16 he was cell or rec alone. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 18 Epstein was required to have a cellmate when he 19 was assigned to the SHU? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 21 MR. : And did anyone ever speak 22 with you about Epstein needing a cellmate when 23 he was assigned -- 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : -- to the SHU? No one EFTA00113623 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 provided any instructions? Um was there a sign 2 posted within the SHU saying that Epstein was 3 required to have a cellmate? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know. 5 I don't think so. I don't know. 6 MR. : Do you ever recall there 7 being a sign posted on his door saying he was 8 required to have a cellmate? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 MR. : Do you ever remember a 11 sign being posted on the officer in charge's 12 desk area or computer saying that he was 13 required to have a cellmate? 14 MR. THOMAS: That's - I don't go to his 15 office. The officer in charge. I don't. 16 MR. : So is that different than 17 where you would sit in the SHU area? 18 MR. THOMAS: The officer in charge or the 19 lieutenant office? 20 MR. : Not the lieutenant. The 21 OIC. 22 MR. THOMAS: The OIC. Well the OIC has a 23 desk. I didn't see a sign. I don't remember 24 recall ever seeing a sign -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113624 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 MR. THOMAS: specific to Epstein. No. 2 MR. : Okay. So no one ever 3 talked to you about the fact that Epstein 4 needed a cellmate? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall anybody 6 specifically talking about he needs a cellmate 7 or not. 8 MR. : Okay. Do you know who 9 Inmate Nicholas Tartaglione is? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : And who is he? 12 MR. THOMAS: An inmate at MCC. 13 MR. : Do you know if he was 14 ever assigned as Epstein's cellmate in July of 15 2019? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I remember he was a 17 cellmate of his. When that incident happened, 18 he was actually a cellmate of him. 19 MR. : So from July 23, 2019? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's the 23rd? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. The 23rd. 23 MR. : So that was - he was his 24 cellmate up until that date? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was up to EFTA00113625 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 that date, I just remember that particular day, 2 Tartaglione was his cellmate that day. 3 MR. : Alright. And are you 4 aware of any issues that took place between 5 Epstein and Tartaglione? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. : So you don't know what 8 transpired at all for that -? 9 MR. THOMAS: For them? No. No. 10 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 11 respond to any kind of incident? Did you 12 respond on July 23rd? 13 MR. THOMAS: To that incident. Yes. Me 14 and another officer responded that time. And 15 by the time we got there, he was Because I 16 got there after the other officer got there. 17 And we just took him out. 18 MR. : What other officer got 19 there? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, who was it...? I don't 21 remember the two officers that were on duty 22 that day, but the other officer that was there, 23 it was 24 MR. -• 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113626 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 MR. : And he worked in the SHU? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. He didn't. I don't 3 remember if was working in the SHU or 4 not. But I remember when we responded, I 5 remember it was me and I remember 6 . I honestly couldn't tell you who the 7 other two officers on duty up there. Maybe 8 was one of the officers, but I know when 9 we responded, when we go there, I remember 10 seeing 11 MR. : Were you working at the 12 SHU at that time? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I was internal that day. 14 MR. : Alright. So I'm assuming 15 that you weren't the first to arrive. 16 MR. THOMAS: No I wasn't the first to 17 arrive. No. Absolutely not. 18 MR. : Okay. So that's what I 19 thought you meant by being the second one 20 there. So can you just explain what you meant 21 by that? 22 MR. THOMAS: Um, from what I can remember. 23 I wasn't the first to respond to - I wasn't the 24 first person on that site on -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113627 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 MR. THOMAS: -- the scene of that. But I 2 did eventually get there. Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So you were one of 4 the responders? 5 MR. THOMAS: I was one of the responding 6 yes. 7 MR. : And when you go there 8 what did you see? 9 MR. THOMAS: By the time I got there, they 10 were actually - they were actually just 11 bringing him out. 12 MR. : Bringing who out? 13 MR. THOMAS: Uh, Mr. Epstein. They was 14 bringing out Mr. Epstein. 15 MR. : Out of his cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: Out of his cell. Yeah. 17 MR. : Where were they bringing 18 him to? 19 MR. THOMAS: We was taking him to the 20 suicide which is down on the second floor. 21 MR. : Okay. So they were 22 moving him from the SHU to the suicide watch 23 area? 24 MR. THOMAS: To the suicide watch area on 25 the second floor. EFTA00113628 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: I remember. 3 MR. : And do you know why he 4 was removed? 5 MR. THOMAS: I guess they say he tried to 6 commit suicide or whatever. 7 MR. : Okay. Did you hear 8 anything about Tartaglione attempting to harm 9 Epstein? 10 MR. THOMAS: I can't recall what he would 11 say. I think he said he tried to beat him up 12 or something like that. I think he said he 13 tried to beat him up. I really don't remember 14 the exact details of what he was saying. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But I think he said he was 17 trying to beat me up or something like that. 18 MR. : So Epstein was claiming 19 that -? 20 MR. THOMAS: Trying to beat him up or 21 something like that. 22 MR. : Was he saying that he 23 didn't try to commit suicide but rather that 24 Tartaglione was trying to harm him? 25 MR. THOMAS: I remember him saying that EFTA00113629 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Tartaglione was trying to beat him up. I 2 remember him saying that. 3 MR. : Okay. And did he tell 4 you that? 5 MR. THOMAS: He was just saying that. 6 Yeah, he was just -. Well we were talking. 7 MR. : When -? 8 MR. THOMAS: So yes, he did tell me that. 9 We were just talking. 10 MR. : Was that when you 11 responded or during your psychological 12 observation or suicide watch observation? 13 MR. THOMAS: It was just when we were in 14 observation together. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: When I say he was really 17 incoherent. He was just saying because 18 actually me and was there for a while. 19 It wasn't just me by myself for maybe about 10 20 - 15 minutes when we got him. Let's say half 21 an hour. Got him there. Got him de-clothed. 22 Got him into the suicide room. And then the 23 lieutenant was there. Who was the lieutenant 24 there? Oh I can't remember. Who was the 25 lieutenant there? And because I don't have EFTA00113630 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 keys and stuff for that - for the suicide room. 2 MR. : What is first 3 name? Are you aware? 4 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. 5 MR. : You don't know? 6 MR. THOMAS: I really don't. 7 MR. : That's fine. Did you - 8 when you responded - did you see any kind of 9 like orange homemade rope or anything like 10 that? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't notice. 12 MR. : That was used to try to - 13 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember seeing any 15 of that stuff. 16 MR. : No? So but you did have 17 a conversation with Epstein about Tartaglione 18 trying to harm him? 19 MR. THOMAS: He said that Tartaglione 20 tried. I remember him saying he was trying to 21 harm him and that was it. Yeah. 22 MR. : Okay. And did you 23 believe that to be true? 24 MR. THOMAS: I didn't. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00113631 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I really didn't. 2 MR. : So do you think he was 3 using it? Why do you think he said it? 4 MR. THOMAS: Probably just wanted to get 5 out of the cell. I don't' know. I really 6 don't. I really don't know. 7 MR. : Okay. But you didn't 8 believe it. You believed that he was actually 9 trying to harm himself rather than the other 10 cellmate trying to harm him? 11 MR. THOMAS: Inmates say things. I really 12 don't know if it was. I really don't know. I 13 really don't know. I just - me at that time, 14 was just sitting there. He wanted to talk. 15 I'm there. Why not talk? 16 MR. : Absolutely. But it 17 didn't cause you concern when he was saying 18 that another inmate was trying to harm him? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well it was passed up and 20 everything like that. Because when he came 21 out, he said it to the lieutenant and 22 everything like that. So everybody was known. 23 But as far as anything - any concern. No. 24 Inmates harm each other all the time. 25 MR. : Sure. Do you know if at EFTA00113632 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that time Tartaglione? 2 MR. THOMAS: It's alright. I can't 3 pronounce his name either. 4 MR. : Tartaglione was moved and 5 no longer Epstein's celimate? 6 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure if they said he 7 tried to harm, I'm sure he was no longer his 8 celimate after that. I'm sure. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you know around 10 how long he was on suicide watch and then 11 psychological observation? Outside of the SHU? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Alright. So does July 23 14 to approximately July 30th sound to be about 15 right? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. THOMAS: I don't work in that area. 19 MR. : No, that's fine. So if 20 Epstein came back to the SHU on July 30, 2019, 21 do you know if he was assigned another 22 celimate? 23 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure they wouldn't put 24 him back in with the same one. So. I would 25 say yes. I don't know specifically, but I -. EFTA00113633 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But he had another 2 cellmate? 3 MR. THOMAS: Maybe he could have been 4 solo. I don't know. I really don't know. 5 MR. : Do you recall checking = 6 being that he's such a high-profile. You know 7 in the SHU. Do you remember ever you know when 8 you were in the SHU, you remember seeing two 9 people in his cell? 10 MR. THOMAS: I really don't recall. 11 MR. : You don't' know? 12 MR. THOMAS: I mean, it could have been 13 two people. He could have been by himself. I 14 really don't remember. 15 MR. : Do you know what inmate - 16 17 MR. THOMAS: Exact or counts. 18 MR. : Sure. I'll try to help 19 your recollection. Do you recall an inmate 20 named Efren Reyes, R-E-Y-E-S? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : So you don't remember 23 that name? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : So he was Epstein's EFTA00113634 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 cellmate from July 30th through August 9th, 2 2019. 3 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 4 MR. : Are you not familiar with 5 that? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know who that 7 is. 8 MR. : Okay. Were you there at 9 all when Epstein was returned from the suicide 10 watch / psychological observation area back to 11 the SHU? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : No? So you're not sure 14 if Reyes was already in the cell or not? 15 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. Like I said, 16 if you could look at the thing. I'm morning 17 watch. So. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. THOMAS: They're all in their cells 20 tucked in at that time. So I couldn't tell you 21 who was in there or -. 22 MR. : Okay. And do you know 23 anything about Reyes being removed from the MCC 24 on August 9, 2019? 25 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. EFTA00113635 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MR. : You don't know that. So 2 on August 9th when you probably got there and 3 through August 10th when you worked there, that 4 wasn't discussed at all? That Reyes was 5 removed and Epstein was without a cellmate? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. : No? You didn't have that 8 discussion with -? Who did you work with that 9 night? 10 MR. THOMAS: Well I know, the 10th I know 11 who I worked with. The 9th I don't know who I 12 was up there with. 13 MR. : In the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MR. : You're not familiar with 16 who you were in the SHU with? 17 MR. THOMAS: On the 9th? 18 MR. : No on the 10th. 19 MR. THOMAS: On the 10th? Yeah. Ms. 20 Noel. 21 MR. : So I'm sorry, when I said 22 the 9th, I meant when you were - you probably 23 arrived at the institution prior to 12:00 a.m. 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I arrived to it but I 25 didn't go straight up there. I went down to my EFTA00113636 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 office for, I didn't go straight up to the SHU. 2 MR. : Okay. Right. So that's 3 what I'm saying. You arrived there on the 4 night of August 9th and then worked in the SHU 5 from midnight August 10th to 8:00. 6 MR. THOMAS: Oh see, okay. Now I see what 7 you're saying. Yeah. I got there let's say at 8 11:50 or 10 minutes prior to try to be there a 9 little early. But I thought when you keep 10 saying the 9th because -- 11 MR. : Yeah, absolutely. 12 MR. THOMAS: as it shows I worked on 13 the 9th. That's why. 14 MR. : Absolutely. 15 MR. THOMAS: But if I got there on the 9th 16 at 10:50, Ms. Noel was up there. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: I can't remember who the 19 other person was. Because it's usually two 20 people. It had to be two people. I can't 21 remember who the other person was. 22 MR. : Sure. And so I'll just 23 ask that last question to make sure that we're 24 on the same page. When you arrived. Prior to 25 your August 10th shift on August 9th at EFTA00113637 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 approximately about -- 2 MR. THOMAS: 11:50. 3 MR. : 11:50 p.m. Was Reyes 4 discussed? Inmate Reyes. Or the fact that 5 Epstein was without a cellmate. 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. : No. Okay. And do you 8 know if Epstein should have been assigned 9 cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he's -. Well 11 usually if you're committed if they - someone 12 commits - they usually try to not put them by 13 themselves. 14 MR. : Right. So if you come 15 back from suicide watch or psychological 16 observation, you're supposed to have a 17 cellmate. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Correct? 20 MR. THOMAS: But that would have been done 21 prior to my shift. That wouldn't have been 22 done on the morning watch shift. No movement 23 happens at the morning watch. 24 MR. : But -. 25 MR. THOMAS: That happens prior to my EFTA00113638 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 shift. 2 MR. : Absolutely. But just my 3 point being people that come off of the 4 psychological observation or suicide watch, 5 they are required to have a cellmate. Correct? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And is there some 8 kind of like a hotlist that's in there? 9 MR. THOMAS: It is. I do recall. You're 10 saying hotlist. There is something called a 11 hotlist. I don't know where it's at or 12 anything like that. But I'm sure they do have 13 something called a hotlist. Yes. 14 MR. : What is a hotlist? 15 MR. THOMAS: The MCC definition of it. I 16 don't know. I know it's just inmates that are 17 - it could be inmates that are cellie. It 18 could be that means that they're cell rec 19 alone. It could be the inmate's suicide watch. 20 It could be the inmate's mental instability. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: Hotlist. It's a culmination 23 of a bunch of different things. 24 MR. : Why are people placed on 25 the hotlist? EFTA00113639 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't place people on the 2 hotlist. I don't know. That's psychology. 3 MR. : Yeah. So if it's up 4 there though for people to see that this is the 5 hotlist. Is there like a reason? Is it 6 something like these people all need cellmates? 7 These people need special attention. These 8 people -. What's the -? 9 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. I 10 couldn't tell you on that. It's just like a 11 hotlist. I know it's a hotlist. Some - the 12 psychology put. I don't know if it's 13 particularly that all these people need 14 cellmates or the hotlist or -. I know that 15 there is something called a hotlist at MCC. I 16 don't know where they - entails you to get on 17 the hotlist. No. 18 MR. : Oh. So not what it takes 19 to get on it. But why it's posted there. Like 20 if you're on the hotlist, what does that mean? 21 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, it could have 22 been because you 23 MR. : So is there a description 24 next to a name? Does it say you're on the 25 hotlist because of this reason? EFTA00113640 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember. I 2 don't -. I can't remember what it looks like. 3 MR. : Okay. But there is 4 hotlist within the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. There is a hotlist 6 somewhere. 7 MR. : Alright. And do you know 8 -? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if it's posted 10 or not. I don't think -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: -- it's posted. I don't 13 know. But I do recall something called a 14 hotlist in the SHU. 15 MR. : So you recall a hotlist. 16 You don't remember seeing it? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember seeing it. 18 No. 19 MR. : Okay. So you never like 20 reviewed it or anything? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember reviewing 22 it. No I don't. 23 MR. : Were you supposed to? If 24 you were assigned in the SHU, were you supposed 25 to say oh these people are on the hotlist. I EFTA00113641 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 need to take special care to these people. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. No. 3 MR. : No? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. 5 MR. : So -. 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't think it was anything 7 special care or these people or not. 8 Absolutely not. 9 MR. : So what would be the 10 purpose of posting a hotlist then? Who would 11 it be for? 12 MR. THOMAS: It's for the staff in SHU. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. THOMAS: It's for the staff in SHU. 15 MR. : So if you're a staff in 16 the SHU, doesn't that mean that you're supposed 17 to look at it? 18 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to for the staff. 19 Yes. You're supposed to look at it. 20 MR. : Alright. But you didn't? 21 MR. THOMAS: I would say no I didn't look 22 at it that night. No. 23 MR. : Fair enough. So do you 24 know if Epstein was on the hotlist? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was on the EFTA00113642 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 hotlist. 2 MR. : But you do know he was on 3 suicide watch and that he should have had a 4 cellmate. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I knew he was a suicide 6 person. Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. Now could SHU 8 staff have assigned Epstein a new cellmate. 9 MR. THOMAS: Could SHU staff do it? i 10 don't know if SHU staff could do it. I know 11 the SHU lieutenant or something like that could 12 do it. But I don't know if SHU staff could 13 just give him. I don't know. 14 MR. : So who would be 15 responsible for assigning Epstein a new 16 cellmate? So let me if it wasn't clear. Reyes 17 was his cellmate. He was required to have a 18 cellmate because he was on suicide watch. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And psychology made sure 21 that - or was supposed to make sure that - 22 everyone knew that he was supposed to have a 23 cellmate. 24 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 25 MR. : So if Reyes leaves as his EFTA00113643 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 celimate on August 9, 2019, who would be 2 responsible for placing a new celimate with 3 Epstein? 4 MR. THOMAS: Honestly I don't know. 5 Honestly I don't know. I'm sure it has to come 6 from somebody higher up. Obviously a 7 lieutenant or it could have come sometimes 8 high-profile could come from the 9 administration. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. THOMAS: Whatever the case may be. So 12 specifically I really don't know. But I know 13 it's somebody higher up has to give him - 14 higher up than me - has to. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don't think an 17 officer would just put somebody in there with 18 him. 19 MR. : Okay. Now is that 20 discussed at all like during any of those 21 trainings or the suicide prevention trainings? 22 Is it discussed like hey if you know this guy 23 is on suicide watch, make sure he's got a 24 cellmate? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. I don't EFTA00113644 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 think it's discussed like that. No I don't. 2 MR. : No? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Alright. So how do you 5 know that if you're on suicide watch they 6 should - the inmate should have a cellmate? 7 MR. THOMAS: I mean we were told. You're 8 told before that if an inmate is - has 9 previously been on suicide he has a cellmate. 10 MR. : So I guess what I'm 11 asking is when were you told that? And where? 12 MR. THOMAS: I've been there for 14 -. I 13 mean I can't remember exact -. 14 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So possibly 15 training? 16 MR. THOMAS: Possibly training. Word of 17 mouth like that but I know 18 MR. : You knew it but you just 19 don't remember where you learned it from? 20 MR. THOMAS: That's correct but then you 21 have inmates that go on suicide watch and come 22 back that don't have a cellmate. So I've seen 23 that also have the inmates go there. Come off 24 suicide and not have a cellmate. So it's -. 25 MR. : Would there be a reason EFTA00113645 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 for a person who came off suicide watch not to 2 have a cellmate? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know the reason or 4 anything. Like I said, that's also the 5 psychology personally handle that. But I've 6 seen also with inmates come up there and they 7 go into a cell by themselves. 8 MR. : Okay. But you're -. And 9 again I don't know that this was clear. If 10 you're working in the SHU and you know someone 11 is supposed to have a cellmate, are you 12 authorized to provide them with a new cellmate? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 14 MR. : You don't know? 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 16 MR. : Have you ever done it? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never done it. 18 MR. : You've never done that? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. I've never just put 20 somebody inside a -. Are we talking with a 21 suicide? I've never just put somebody in a 22 cell with somebody else. 23 MR. : Okay. Should you -? 24 MR. THOMAS: Especially not at morning 25 watch. Absolutely not. EFTA00113646 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 MR. : Okay. As someone in the 2 SHU working in there and knowing someone's 3 without a cellmate that should have a cellmate, 4 should you report it to a lieutenant? 5 MR. THOMAS: If they don't have a cellmate 6 should you report it to a lieutenant? Mm. I 7 don't know. I mean. Usually if that happens, 8 the lieutenant, because with certain inmates 9 you can't just put somebody in with them like. 10 It could be a racial thing. It could be he had 11 a previous incident. He could be whatever the 12 case may be. So I know officers don't want to 13 just do it because then they say oh that person 14 can't be in with them. And also before you put 15 an inmate inside so you have to check their 16 background as far as steps so this person can't 17 be with this person. Or this one is affiliated 18 with this and this person. So for an officer 19 because some officers don't have the 20 programming -. I mean don't have the thing 21 just to say oh well I'm going to see inmate 22 this and I'm going to put him into that. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: So that's why an officer 25 wouldn't just put an inmate inside with another EFTA00113647 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 - with someone. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. It has 4 to come down from up top. 5 MR. : Alright. From your 6 knowledge being that Reyes left and Epstein is 7 required to have a cellmate and didn't have 8 one. Do you believe SHU staff should have 9 assigned Epstein a new cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 11 MR. : No? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 13 MR. : So per your training -. 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : And you know work 16 experience. 17 MR. THOMAS: Should SHU staff just has 18 assigned him? No. I believe that should have 19 come from somebody above him. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. THOMAS: Somebody above the SHU staff. 22 MR. : So if the SHU staff 23 doesn't inform anyone about an inmate required 24 to have a cellmate that they don't, how do 25 people higher above them learn that there's no EFTA00113648 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 cellmate with someone like Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: Well whoever is on shift at 3 that time. It's a process. Like it's if 4 someone leaves and goes from R&D to -. A staff 5 member can't just let somebody leave. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. THOMAS: You know. I can't just let 8 somebody walk just because he can walk in walk 9 out. 10 MR. : Absolutely. 11 MR. THOMAS: Has to come from R&D oh this 12 person was released. And then because then the 13 base count changes. And then so it's notified 14 before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody 15 left. Or 16 MR. : So 17 MR. THOMAS: Now if it wasn't you know 18 that specific that Reyes left. You know what i 19 mean. That Jeffrey Epstein. I know before it 20 gets to the SHU staff happened to put somebody 21 in there. It has to come from someone else to 22 know that inmates left from a particular 23 housing unit. Or SHU have to tell them the 24 inmate left from a particular. Now whether 25 they know that it was Epstein's um cellmate EFTA00113649 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that left. I don't know. That's above me. 2 But it comes from way up from - it comes from 3 before it gets to the SHU staff that somebody 4 left. The only thing that a SHU staff is going 5 to get is a call saying that oh yeah, base 6 count changed that such-and-such is not there. 7 MR. : So if the people that are 8 calling SHU and saying hey this inmate is 9 leaving. So in this instance it would be on 10 August 9th. SHU staff. You weren't there. 11 But SHU staff gets the call and hey, inmate 12 Reyes is leaving. Do those people know that 13 Reyes was assigned to Epstein? 14 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure they -. I mean. 15 I'm sure they should -- 16 MR. : Or would the SHU staff be 17 responsible -- 18 MR. THOMAS: know that he was assigned 19 20 MR. : -- for saying hey he's 21 leaving but Epstein is required to have a 22 cellmate. That's Epstein's cellmate. How does 23 that information get passed along? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113650 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know when that 2 particular - when that will happen. I really 3 couldn't tell you when that would actually go 4 down in the - go down. 5 MR. : Okay. And this is 6 specific to you. If - you said you didn't 7 but would you have been authorized to assign 8 Epstein a new cellmate during your shift on 9 August 10, 2019? 10 MR. THOMAS: Would I have been authorized 11 to? 12 MR. : Right. So if you knew 13 that Epstein was required to have a cellmate 14 MR. THOMAS: If somebody would have told 15 me to give. I wouldn't have just taken it upon 16 myself to take an inmate out from X and put him 17 to where in to Epstein. No. If somebody 18 authorized me to put him in there, then I would 19 have put him in there. But 20 MR. : But you wouldn't have 21 that authorization to do that independently? 22 MR. THOMAS: Independently? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : No. EFTA00113651 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : So you couldn't on your 3 own make the decision. Hey, he's without an 4 inmate - he's without a cellmate. I need to 5 get a new inmate in there. 6 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say no. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say no. Not 9 especially with a high-profile. You're not 10 just going to put somebody in with somebody 11 else. Absolutely not. 12 MR. : Alright. And obviously 13 since you didn't know, I believe I already know 14 the answer to this, but did you notify anyone 15 during your shift on August 10th that Epstein 16 did not have a cellmate? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : No. Alright. Now we're 19 going to talk a little bit about staff 20 psychologists. Because you mentioned them. Do 21 you know who the MCC staff psychologists were 22 in August 2019? 23 MR. THOMAS: Dr. . You're talking 24 about the -. 25 MR. : Is Dr. the chief - EFTA00113652 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. The chief or whatever 3 it's called. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. THOMAS: Mr. 6 MR. : Is there an 7 MR. THOMAS: Oh, Dr. . Dr. 8 Dr. . Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: I know who Dr. is. 11 MR. : Alright. 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. : Alright. So there's 14 three of them. I think Chief 15 Staff Psychologist , and 16 17 MR. THOMAS: 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Are you aware of Epstein 21 meeting with any of the staff psychologists 22 during his stay at the MCC? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. THOMAS: No I'm not. EFTA00113653 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So would have he -? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure if he went on 3 suicide, I'm sure he met with them. But I 4 don't know specifically that they go on this 5 date that he met with them. 6 MR. : No, it's -. 7 MR. THOMAS: If he was on suicide watch, 8 I'm sure he's met with someone. 9 MR. : Now how places someone on 10 suicide watch? 11 MR. THOMAS: Psychology. 12 MR. : Okay. So if Epstein like 13 you said was on suicide watch, would have 14 psychology then placed him there? 15 MR. THOMAS: Well a psychology will say 16 that he has to go there and then the staff - 17 the custody staff would actually take him to 18 the suicide area. 19 MR. : Okay. And just briefly, 20 what is suicide watch? 21 MR. THOMAS: It's a place where you watch 22 somebody on suicide. 23 MR. : Like you said, did you 24 say the second floor? 25 MR. THOMAS: It's on the second floor. EFTA00113654 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 Yeah. 2 MR. : So the second floor is a 3 separate area? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's a separate area. Four 5 cells. And in that pack you can, I've seen 6 suicide watch be in the SHU sometimes. So it 7 just -. 8 MR. : And just on that note, 9 where is the SHU? What floor? 10 MR. THOMAS: Ninth. 11 MR. : Ninth floor. Alright. 12 So. He was on the 9th floor. Went down to the 13 second floor - Epstein that is. On suicide 14 watch. So it's on the second floor. And like 15 how long are they there? Like who makes that 16 determination I guess is what I'm saying. 17 MR. THOMAS: I would say -. 18 MR. : Who's in there? Is 19 psychology like co-located with it or how is it 20 -? The suicide watch area. How is that set 21 up? 22 MR. THOMAS: It's a room on the second 23 floor. It's four rooms on the second floor. 24 Single rooms. Big glass. Door. Food slot. 25 Same on the other side. There are two EFTA00113655 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 adjoining doors. It has a shower there. So 2 like if you have to shower then there's a 3 closet. 4 MR. : Is psychology near there? 5 MR. THOMAS: The psychology is down the 6 hall. 7 MR. : Also on the second floor? 8 MR. THOMAS: Also on the second floor. 9 MR. : So would they - do you 10 believe that they would meet with people that 11 are on suicide watch? 12 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure. Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. : But you didn't know? But 16 you just believe. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I believe. I just 18 believe it. I'm sure that they meet with 19 people on the suicide watch. I'm sure. 20 MR. : So when you're watching 21 Epstein on July 23rd, did you see a 22 psychologist talk with him at all? 23 MR. THOMAS: That was on the morning 24 watch. But no psychologists is on duty. 25 MR. : Oh, okay. EFTA00113656 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: -- at that time. 2 MR. : So you were there from 3 8:00 -. You were watching him. 4 MR. THOMAS: From 12 midnight to -- 5 MR. : 8:00 a.m. 6 MR. THOMAS: -- while I was watching him 7 until, well exactly, from about 1:30 to 8:00 8 a.m. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: So um. 11 MR. : Now when inmates though 12 like Epstein he's on suicide watch and then 13 placed back in the SHU. How soon thereafter 14 are they typically provided a cellmate? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't know. 16 MR. : Is it right away? 17 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure it's right away. 18 MR. : Typically? 19 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure it's -. 20 MR. : So it like you, 21 typically, like is a cellmate already in there 22 when they place him with someone? 23 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. It could be 24 either or. I'm sure that they made certain 25 provisions and stuff to make sure that he was EFTA00113657 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 put with somebody that he felt comfortable with 2 or whatever the case. 3 MR. : Do inmates that are on 4 suicide watch and psychological observation. 5 Do they always go from there to the SHU? Or 6 ever into somewhere else? 7 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 8 MR. : So if someone's on 9 suicide watch or psychological observation. 10 MR. THOMAS: On the second floor. 11 MR. : On the second floor. 12 When they are released from that, do they 13 always get placed into the SHU or do they go 14 MR. THOMAS: No. They can 15 MR. : -- back into get general 16 population? 17 MR. THOMAS: It can be either or. If they 18 have some more SHU time that they have to serve 19 or anything like that they can go back to the 20 SHU. But their SHU time is up and it's -. I'm 21 assuming -. I'll say it's whatever the 22 psychologists say. If they say that they're 23 cleared to go to population. They'll take them 24 to population. 25 MR. : Okay. What's the EFTA00113658 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 difference between suicide watch and 2 psychological observation? 3 MR. THOMAS: Suicide watch, one has a 4 smock and a blanket. And observation they have 5 clothes. 6 MR. : That's the only 7 difference? 8 MR. THOMAS: That's the only difference. 9 We still just watching them out there. There's 10 no difference. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: Or anything like that. Yeah. 13 No difference. You watch them. 14 MR. : Same area, same cell, 15 just what they're wearing? 16 MR. THOMAS: What they're - yeah. Same 17 area, same cells, and what they're wearing. 18 Absolutely. 19 MR. : Okay. And is it your 20 understanding the Epstein was both on suicide 21 watch and psychological observation? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was on 23 psychological. I knew when I watched him he 24 was on suicide watch at that time. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113659 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't. Maybe he was. 2 don't know. 3 MR. : Did any other inmates 4 that were in the SHU when you were working in 5 the SHU in July and August 2019. Were any of 6 them also people that were on suicide watch or 7 psychological observation? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 9 MR. : No? Would that be on 10 that hotlist if they were? 11 MR. THOMAS: It probably would be. I 12 don't know if it's something that other 13 inmates. I couldn't tell you there was 5X 14 suicides or that. I couldn't tell you. 15 MR. : Okay. Are there any 16 other additional requirements for people to 17 come off of suicide watch or psychological 18 observation, aside from having a cellmate? 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 20 MR. : Do they have to get -? 21 Do you have to pay closer attention to them? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm -. I don't think so. 23 I'd just say that everything is still standard 24 practice. 25 MR. : Okay. So when you're EFTA00113660 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 working in the SHU, do you treat everybody the 2 same? Or certain people -? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. I treat everybody the 4 same. 5 MR. : So you don't look after 6 certain people more than others? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't pay more 8 attention to one person or another. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: No. You look after everyone 11 the same. 12 MR. : And is that the case with 13 Epstein as well? You weren't informed like 14 hey, make sure you're paying more attention to 15 him? He's your priority. 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : So no one ever said 18 MR. THOMAS: No. absolutely not. 19 MR. : -- he's the priority 20 inmate? Okay. And I may have asked you this, 21 so I apologize if it's repetitive. 22 MR. THOMAS: It's all right. 23 MR. : But was Epstein required 24 to have a cellmate during his stay in the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. EFTA00113661 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : You just don't know. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't know exactly, but I 3 don't know. I don't know. But I would say if 4 he was previous suicide, yeah, he was probably 5 required to have an inmate. 6 MR. : Are you aware that the 7 staff psychologist every issued a requirement 8 for him to have a cellmate? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. I'm not. I don't know. 10 MR. : So did anyone, including 11 the psychologist, peers, supervisors, or others 12 ever tell you that Epstein was required to have 13 a cellmate? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : Do you have that email? 16 MR. : Let me see. Is there one 17 more stack? 18 MR. : So this is an email from 19 that from psychology. It says, 20 to suicide watch psychological observation 21 update, 7:30, 2019. Do you know if you ever 22 received this email? It says, "Inmate Epstein 23 is being taken off psych observation and needs 24 to be housed with an appropriate cellmate." Do 25 you remember ever receiving that? EFTA00113662 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MR. THOMAS: Um. Usually they send this 2 out to everybody like it's sent out to 3 everybody but I don't remember seeing it. I'm 4 sure if it was sent out to all staff, I'm sure 5 it got to me. But I don't remember seeing it. 6 MR. : No. And I'm not saying 7 that you received it. I'm just asking if you 8 had received it. Like either by forward. Did 9 anyone ever forward this email to you? Or did 10 anybody ever -? Or did you ever see it? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. My name's not on here. 12 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No, I 13 know. Your name isn't on there. 14 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : You're right. That's why 16 I'm just asking if anyone ever forwarded tha- 17 on to you? 18 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. Hm-mm. 19 MR. : And. Okay. Do any of 20 these names that are on here -. Especially 21 toward the bottom here. Any of these names 22 people that would worked in the SHU? 23 MR. THOMAS: It could be a bunch of these 24 people that worked in the SHU. I don't know 25 specifically who works in the SHU. EFTA00113663 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 88 1 MR. : Okay. But because you 2 weren't on a regular SHU schedule, you may not 3 have -? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 5 MR. : They may not have 6 forwarded -- 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, that's the chaplain. 8 MR. that to you? 9 MR. : One of those is the 10 chaplain. 11 MR. : That's okay. But you 12 never -. None of these people ever forwarded 13 this to you. 14 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I -. 15 MR. : No one ever sent it? 16 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 17 MR. : Okay. Just because we 18 talked about it, do you mind just initialing it 19 and dating it? Thank you, sir. 20 MR. THOMAS: I wrote '20, so I initialed 21 over it. I put the one. Because I initialed 22 over it. When writing it. 23 MR. : What's this? 24 MR. THOMAS: I put 20. 25 MR. : This said 19. Yeah. EFTA00113664 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MR. THOMAS: No. I put 20, so I put the 2 one and I put my initials over it. 3 MR. : That's his initials. 4 MR. : Okay. Got it. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I didn't. 6 MR. : That he thought because 7 it kind of looks (Indiscernible *01:06:36). 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 MR. : 2019. 10 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 11 MR. : Alright. Thanks. So no 12 one ever informed you that even -. Not only 13 that but that you needed to keep a closer eye 14 on Epstein. 15 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't ever recall 16 being informed about that. No. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: I mean I'm not a custody 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. THOMAS: I'm not a -. 21 MR. : I didn't know during your 22 times that you're actually in the SHU -- 23 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 24 MR. : -- people talking about - 25 EFTA00113665 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : -- like -. 3 MR. : I'm in at midnight. 4 Everybody's gone. 5 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. Just the 6 people because you're always with at least one 7 other person. Right? 8 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. Yes. 9 MR. : But that other person, 10 you never had this -- 11 MR. THOMAS: Nah, I don't recall. 12 MR. : -- conversation? Okay. 13 Do you recall who the MCC warden in July and 14 August 2019 was? 15 MR. THOMAS: I can't pronounce his first 16 name, but -. 17 MR. : Is it 18 I? 19 MR. THOMAS: I was about to say captain 20 . But 21 MR. : Uh. 22 MR. THOMAS: But you said the warden. 23 Right? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. THOMAS: EFTA00113666 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. : Yeah. So 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. Good. What 4 communications do you have with the MCC warden 5 with regarding to Epstein being housed within 6 the MCC? 7 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall any. 8 MR. : None? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 MR. : So I'm going to go 11 through just a couple names. And the reason 12 why I'm going to ask the same questions. And 13 the intention is not to be repetitive, but for 14 you to specifically think -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Just -. 16 MR. : -- these people to just 17 see if that helps let you recall. 18 MR. THOMAS: Jog something. 19 MR. : Yeah. You know so you 20 can visualize that person. 21 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 22 MR. : So did the warden ever 23 provide you with special instructions with 24 Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I recall. EFTA00113667 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. : Okay. Did the warden 2 ever tell you that Epstein was required to have 3 a cellmate while housed at the MCC or assigned 4 to the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I recall. 6 MR. : Did the warden ever visit 7 the SHU during Epstein's stay at the MCC? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 9 MR. : You don't know because 10 you weren't there during the days? Does the 11 warden typically just work during the day 12 watch? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. I actually had an 14 overtime shift with the warden sometime when he 15 helped out with the He worked the SHU with 16 me one time. But I know -. 17 MR. : When did he do that? 18 MR. THOMAS: I can't recall. 19 MR. : Would it have been like 20 in the July or August of 2019? 21 MR. THOMAS: Nah, this was a long time 22 ago. 23 MR. : Okay. And that -- 24 MR. THOMAS: A long time ago. 25 MR. : -- same warden? EFTA00113668 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That same warden. 2 MR. : Okay. Do you recall any 3 times that you were in the SHU during July and 4 August during Epstein's stay that the warden 5 visited? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I'm on morning watch. 7 MR. : Right. That's what I 8 meant. Because you had said that sometimes he 9 did though. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. But not during 12 that time. 13 MR. THOMAS: Not during my time. No. 14 MR. : Do you know if the warden 15 ever met with Epstein during his stay here at 16 MCC? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : Who were the MCC 19 associate wardens in August 2019? 20 MR. THOMAS: 21 MR. : So 22 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. THOMAS: And - honestly I can't 25 remember the other one. EFTA00113669 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. Did 2 ever inform you about -? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Talk to you about 5 Epstein? Okay. Did any AWs or associate 6 wardens? No? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Alright. 9 MR. THOMAS: Not any. 10 MR. : So what communications 11 did you have with any MCC AWs, including 12 , about Epstein being 13 housed -- 14 MR. THOMAS: None. 15 MR. : -- within the MCC. None? 16 What AWs did you communicate with and how were 17 those communications conducted? Did you ever 18 discuss anything with AWs? Did you ever have 19 conversations with them? 20 MR. THOMAS: How is your day going? 21 MR. : Yeah. But not like 22 sitting down talking about different inmates or 23 anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 25 MR. : No? Alright. And did EFTA00113670 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 any AWs ever provide you with any information 2 with regard to Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Or special instructions? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. 6 MR. : And did any AW, including 7 AW , ever tell you that 8 Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 MR. : Did any AW ever visit the 11 SHU while you were in the SHU? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : No? Did any AW ever meet 14 with Epstein during his stay at MCC? 15 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 16 MR. : Okay. Who was the MCC 17 captain in July and August of 2019? 18 MR. THOMAS: I see his face but I can't 19 remember his name. I see his face. 20 MR. : Was it 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. There you go. There 22 you go. 23 MR. : So it was 24 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113671 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. What 2 communications did you have with Captain 3 with regarding to Epstein being housed --? 4 MR. THOMAS: None. 5 MR. : -- at the MCC. None? 6 Would you have any communications with the 7 captain? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. Passing by. 9 MR. : Just hello and 10 MR. THOMAS: Hello and what's going on and 11 12 MR. MITCHELL: Right there. 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 14 MR. : And -. Um. We'll just 15 have like three more questions and then we'll 16 take a break. 17 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 18 MR. : Did the captain ever 19 provide you with special instructions with 20 regard to Epstein? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : Did the captain ever tell 23 you that Epstein was required to have a 24 cellmate -- 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00113672 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. : -- while housed at MCC or 2 the SHU? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Did the captain ever 5 visit the SHU during Epstein's stay at the MCC? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 7 MR. : Did the captain ever -? 8 But not while you were in the SHU? 9 MR. THOMAS: Not while I was in SHU. No. 10 MR. : Did the captain ever 11 meeting with Epstein during his stay at the 12 MCC? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 14 MR. : Not to -. 15 MR. THOMAS: And I - I don't know. 16 MR. : Yep. Absolutely. 17 Alright. You want to take a break now? 18 MR. MITCHELL: Just one quick one. Yes. 19 MR. : Yeah, absolutely. It is 20 currently 11:18 a.m. This is Senior Special 21 Agent and I am pausing the 22 recording. [Whereupon, the above-entitled 23 matter went off the record and went back on the 24 record.] This is Senior Special Agent 25 and we're resuming the interview EFTA00113673 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with Mr. Thomas. Everyone is present. I 2 should also note that another attorney for Mr. 3 Thomas is on the telephone. I believe that is 4 Montel Figgins. Is that correct? 5 MR. FIGGINS: That's correct. 6 MR. : Okay. Great. Mr. 7 Thomas, I just want to remind you, this is a 8 voluntary interview. You are under oath. And 9 we will resume. Any questions 10 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 11 MR. : -- before we start? 12 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 13 MR. : Alright. So the next 14 section is regarding supervisors on August 9th 15 and August 10th. Again, we know you don't work 16 on August 9th, during the day. 17 MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. 18 MR. : At least. You did work 19 in the early morning hours. 20 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Some of these questions 22 then you might not know the answers to. Who 23 were the MCC supervisors on duty with 24 responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 25 9th and 10th, 2019? I'll actually provide you EFTA00113674 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with this duty agent roster to help. So this 2 is an MCC New York daily assignment roster for 3 August - Friday August 9, 2019. And this is 4 one for -- 5 MR. THOMAS: The 10th. 6 MR. : -- Saturday, August 10, 7 2019. So -. 8 MR. THOMAS: What's your question? 9 MR. : So who were the MCC 10 supervisors on duty with the responsibility for 11 overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 12 2019? So who would have -? Is it true that 13 the SHU lieutenant -? If the SHU lieutenant is 14 out of the office. 15 MR. MITCHELL: Oh, I'm sorry. Can we do 16 one question at a time? Because it just -. 17 You jumped to the second and he didn't answer 18 it. 19 MR. : Well it's because I 20 wanted to explain that the SHU lieutenant was 21 out. 22 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. 23 MR. : So who then would be 24 responsible to oversee the SHU if the SHU 25 lieutenant is out? EFTA00113675 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. THOMAS: I - whoa. If the SHU 2 lieutenant is out? Who would be responsible? 3 I don't -. 4 MR. : Would it be the ops or 5 activities lieutenant? 6 MR. THOMAS: For my shift or for the shift 7 that I was on that time would be -. 8 MR. Mm-hmm. Just what's your 9 understanding? So for August 9th, who would be 10 like for instance -? 11 MR. THOMAS: So 12 MR. : And we can start from 13 when you worked on August 9th. 14 MR. THOMAS: Okay. (Indiscernible 15 *01:13:56) 16 MR. : Who on August 9th would 17 have been responsible for overseeing the SHU if 18 the SHU lieutenant is not there? 19 MR. THOMAS: Um, I guess the operations 20 lieutenant. 21 MR. : Okay. And what does it 22 say? 23 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Um, 24 MR. -: . And then 25 after gets off. It looks like EFTA00113676 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 her duty was from I think that they were a 2 little different. But it shows on this that it 3 was midnight to 8:00 a.m. I believe they 4 actually worked 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. But 5 after she would leave at either 6:00 a.m. or 6 8:00 a.m. Who would then become the person 7 with oversight of the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: I guess. It's either 9 MR. : Would it be or 10 and 11 MR. THOMAS: It would be both and 12 that's operations and the activities 13 lieutenant. 14 MR. : Okay. And then after 15 them would it be and 16 MR. THOMAS: Oh. Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: Well actually. Well yeah. 19 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 20 MR. : So is that how it works? 21 These people up here, these are the operations 22 lieutenant or activities lieutenant would have 23 oversight of the SHU? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well if I'm not mistaken -. 25 It I'm not mistaken, I think, as I said, the EFTA00113677 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 captain is the SHU's house. So I would say -. 2 Well direct supervisor would be the -. 3 MR. : Yeah, like the first line 4 supervisor. 5 MR. THOMAS: First line super would be the 6 operations lieutenant and activities 7 lieutenant. 8 MR. : Okay. And would it be -- 9 MR. THOMAS: That goes for 10 MR. : -- one or the other? 11 Would it be typically -? 12 MR. THOMAS: Well operations are head of 13 the whole building and then -. 14 MR. : So if you had an issue in 15 the SHU, who would you contact? 16 MR. THOMAS: The operations lieutenant. 17 MR. : Not the activities 18 lieutenant? 19 MR. THOMAS: Well activities doesn't come 20 in until 6:00 in the morning. 21 MR. : Sure. So if the 22 activities lieutenant and the operations 23 lieutenant are both present, and there was -. 24 I know you weren't working this date during 25 that time. But if someone, when they're both EFTA00113678 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 on duty, who would be contacted? Activities or 2 operations? Or is it either? 3 MR. THOMAS: I - you would just say 4 whatever SHU needed. You say operations. You 5 say operations . It really depends on the 6 situation. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: Depends on the situation 9 whether you would call the activities or the 10 operations but 9 out of ten times mostly with 11 this you call operations. 12 MR. : And does the activities 13 lieutenant sit in operations? 14 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 15 MR. : So how does that work? 16 So for instance, if you -- 17 MR. THOMAS: They can be anywhere in the 18 building. 19 MR. : -- call operations. Are 20 those two individuals together 21 MR. THOMAS: No. They're 22 MR. : typically? 23 MR. THOMAS: normally not together. 24 They can be anywhere in the building. 25 MR. : So would you ever call on EFTA00113679 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 2 3 4 say activities. MR. THOMAS: There could be an instance where you call and say activities when you don't want to bother -. It depends like I said 5 depending on the situation. 6 MR. : Okay. And on your - when 7 you were in the SHU on August 10th, who would 8 have been - who would have had oversight as 9 lieutenant on August 10th? 10 MR. THOMAS: -. 11 MR. -: -. 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 13 MR. : Lieutenant 14 MR. THOMAS: Lieutenant, sir. 15 MR. : Okay. Great. And then I 16 think that she left at 6:00 a.m. Who would 17 have then taken over responsibility? Would it 18 have been 19 MR. THOMAS: Uh, . Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Who is lieutenant 21 -? And I don't know exactly how to pronounce 22 his name, but 23 MR. THOMAS: He's a -. Um, I -. 24 MR. : No-no-no. Not on this. 25 I'm sorry. Who is he? Not looking at this. EFTA00113680 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 Do you know who he is? Lieutenant 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. 3 MR. : Lieutenant 4 MR. THOMAS: He's a lieutenant at MCC. I 5 think he's might be just the quarterly SHU 6 lieutenant I guess. 7 MR. : He was the SHU 8 lieutenant? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. Do you know if he 11 was the SHU lieutenant in August of 2019? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I'm sure - 13 . I don't know. 14 MR. : So that's not something 15 that you would know -- 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. 17 MR. during the day -. 18 MR. THOMAS: During the day. Yeah. 19 MR. : So that -? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 21 MR. : So that's nothing -? 22 MR. THOMAS: But it's like from the 23 roster. I'm sure they posted it, it's probably 24 somewhere on the roster somewhere. But I mean 25 if he say he's the SHU lieutenant, he's the SHU EFTA00113681 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 lieutenant. I don't -. If he was that SHU 2 lieutenant. If it was his quarter to have it, 3 then he's the SHU lieutenant. 4 MR. : Okay. Do you know if he 5 was off on August 9, 2019? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know (Indiscernible 7 *01:17:42) 8 MR. : You don't know. Sure. 9 Absolutely. Did you have any communications 10 with Lieutenant with regard to Epstein 11 being housed within the MCC? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Or in the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No? No - any kind of 16 emails or any kind of communication? When I 17 say communication, I mean verbal -- 18 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 19 MR. : emails, anything? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, not that I know of. No. 21 Not -. I can't recall any. 22 MR. : Okay. So did Lieutenant 23 ever provide you with any kind of special 24 instructions with regard to Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. EFTA00113682 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Did Lieutenant every 2 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 3 celimate when he was assigned to the SHU? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : Do you know who is 6 Operations Lieutenant ? I guess he 7 was the operations lieutenant. 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 MR. : Is he regularly the 10 operations lieutenant? 11 MR. THOMAS: It - it -. 12 MR. : At that time? 13 MR. THOMAS: It varies. You know it's a 14 rotating shift, so they could have switched 15 shifts at that time. I don't -. It varies. 16 It varies. 17 MR. : Okay. So according to 18 this August 9th. 19 MR. THOMAS: This says he comes in at - 20 what is it 6:00 and 8:00 - 8:00 to 4:00 or 7:00 21 to 10:00, whichever one. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Well it says 8:00, so it 24 would be 8:00 to 4:00. 25 MR. : Okay. I think that, from EFTA00113683 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 my understanding, some of the lieutenants were 2 actually working two hours before. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 MR. : So I think he was 5 actually 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Although it's 6 confusing on this, by looking at the roster. 7 So when he was on, would have he been 8 responsible for overall oversight of the SHU? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. If he was operations 10 lieutenant. Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. Did you have any 12 communications with in regard to Epstein? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : Or the SHU? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : No? So not even any kind 17 of - not even talking about Epstein, with 18 anything to do with your responsibilities in 19 the SHU - with 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : Okay. And again, I'm 22 going to say these names just to try to change 23 things around. 24 MR. THOMAS: Fine. 25 MR. : Did Lieutenant EFTA00113684 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 every provide you with special instructions 2 with regard to Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Did Lieutenant ever 5 tell you that Epstein was required to have a 6 cellmate while he was assigned to the SHU? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Who is Lieutenant 9 ? You don't even know? 10 MR. THOMAS: He just started there I 11 think. I want to say he just started there. 12 (Indiscernible *01:19:52) just a transfer now. 13 He probably was there maybe two months. I 14 think if I -. I vaguely remember him. 15 MR. THOMAS: Do you know if he had any 16 involvement or oversight of the SHU? 17 MR. THOMAS: I probably spoke to him 18 twice. 19 MR. : Twice? And do you know 20 what those communications entailed? 21 MR. THOMAS: Time (Indiscernible 22 *01:20:01) 23 MR. : Anything to do with 24 Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: Or EFTA00113685 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : Or operations in the SHU? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : No? Never provided you 4 any special instructions with Epstein. 5 MR. THOMAS: No. He never provided you 6 any special instructions with Epstein. 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Never told you that 9 Epstein was required to have a ceilmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : Okay. What about Senior 12 Officer Specialist 13 I? 14 MR. THOMAS: Uh-huh. Do I know her? Yes. 15 MR. : Yeah. So on August 9th 16 if you look at this. It looks like she was the 17 activities lieutenant 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- from what appears to 20 be - It says 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. Obviously 21 you weren't -- 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm not -. 23 MR. : -- there at that time. 24 Correct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. EFTA00113686 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Alright. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn't there. 3 MR. : You weren't there. 4 Correct. At any time did you have any 5 communications with SOS as far as 6 Epstein? 7 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 8 MR. : Did she ever give you any 9 special instructions with Epstein? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : Did she ever tell you 12 that Epstein was required the have a cellmate? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : While assigned to the 15 SHU? No? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : Now we're going to talk 18 to the staff members in the SHU on August 10th 19 when you were there. 20 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 21 MR. : Alright. What BOP 22 employees worked in the SHU on August 10, 2019 23 from approximately 1200 a.m. to 6:30 a.m.? 24 MR. THOMAS: Um, Ms. Noel. 25 MR. : And yourself? EFTA00113687 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: And myself. 2 MR. : Okay. And what was your 3 role in the SHU on August 10, 2019? 4 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2. She was SHU 1. 5 MR. : And what does that mean? 6 MR. THOMAS: It just means that it's just 7 where you was assigned. It's just where I was 8 assigned. I was assigned there for overtime. 9 She was assigned there for overtime. 10 MR. : Is there a difference 11 between SHU 1 and SHU 2 though? Like different 12 responsibilities? 13 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't - you have to read 14 the post orders. I couldn't tell you. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: exactly what the -. 17 MR. : Is there a hierarchy? 18 MR. THOMAS: I want -. It depends. I 19 mean it really, really depends. That's 20 definitely hard to explain because is there 21 hierarchy? No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Remember because she has -. 24 It's no hierarchy. 25 MR. : Is the person with the EFTA00113688 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 most experience in the BOP in command? Or how 2 does that work? When you're in there with 3 another person. There's only two of you. is 4 there someone that's kind of in charge? 5 MR. THOMAS: I'm going to say -. They're 6 going to say SHU -. How it is the BOP. How it 7 is at the jail. They say SHU 1 is in charge. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: But then they with SHU 1 10 or somebody with more time. Like if I have 11 more time than SHU 1. How are you going to be 12 in charge when you have more time? It depends. 13 But then again, I'm non-custody. So it's all 14 different dynamics when it comes to that. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But they will say SHU 1 is 17 usually in charge. If you bid for SHU 1 -. If 18 you did a bid, they'll say SHU 1 is in charge 19 of the SHU. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. THOMAS: But -. 22 MR. : And you were SHU 2 that 23 day? 24 MR. THOMAS: I was SHU 2 that day. Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. But because you EFTA00113689 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 had seniority, is that -? 2 MR. THOMAS: It doesn't play out like 3 that. It doesn't play like that. In a black 4 and white sense, it doesn't play out like that. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: You're both equally 7 responsible because she's SHU 2 and I'm SHU 2. 8 I mean it just - it doesn't - and on paper it 9 plays out that she's SHU 1. She's in charge 10 and I'm SHU 2, but it really doesn't play out 11 like that. 12 MR. : So you're both serving 13 the same roles? 14 MR. THOMAS: Were both serving the same 15 roles, especially on morning watch. We're both 16 doing the same thing 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: were both serving the 19 same. 20 MR. : Same duties a 21 responsibilities. 22 MR. THOMAS: Same duties and 23 responsibilities. Well because you can't do 24 one thing without the other. So. 25 MR. : Okay. Because pretty EFTA00113690 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 much everything you do requires two people. Is 2 that why? 3 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to. Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 6 MR. : And did you replace 7 8 MR. THOMAS: 9 MR. . Did you 10 replace him at 12:00 a.m.? 11 MR. THOMAS: Okay. I guess. 12 Yes. If I can't remember if they said it was 13 . Yeah. Okay. I couldn't remember 14 who I -. It was somebody I had to replace. I 15 don't remember who it was but - 16 MR. : Do you remember having 17 any interaction with when you replaced 18 him? 19 MR. THOMAS: I mean is like me. 20 He's both non-custody. So we work - he's trust 21 fund like how I'm trust fund. He's a material 22 handler specialist -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: -- like me, so I'll probably 25 (Indiscernible *01:24:10). I couldn't remember EFTA00113691 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 our exact communication when I started. 1 2 probably said what's up. 3 MR. : Do you remember -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Smacked him on the back of 5 the head. 6 MR. : - any kind of 7 conversations? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. I really don't remember. 9 MR. : Okay. Did you speak with 10 him at all with regard to Epstein? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. 12 MR. : Anything to do with like 13 Reyes leaving and Epstein being alone? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No? What conversations 16 did you have with Noel during your shift with 17 regard to Epstein? On August 10th. 18 MR. THOMAS: Uh, none. 19 MR. : You don't remember 20 talking about him? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember talking 22 about him. 23 MR. : Do you recall if anyone 24 else was present at any time at all in the SHU 25 on August 10, 2019? Between the hours of 12:00 EFTA00113692 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 a.m. and 6:33 a.m.? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um.... I'm sure a lieutenant 3 came up. I couldn't tell you when. I'm sure 4 the lieutenant came up once or I'm sure the 5 lieutenant came up. 6 MR. : And who would have been 7 the lieutenant who would come up? 8 MR. THOMAS: Uh, Lieutenant 9 MR. 10 MR. THOMAS: 11 MR. : Okay. And do you 12 remember that interaction at all? When the 13 lieutenant came up? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. Not really. 15 MR. : No? 16 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 17 MR. : Would have that been 18 probably around like 4:00 a.m.? 19 MR. THOMAS: It's sporadic. There's no 20 set particular time that she had to be there by 21 3:00 or 2:00 or 1:00 - anything like that. But 22 I'm sure during the course of the day, during 23 the course of the night, lieutenant 24 came by SHU. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113693 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. THOMAS: She always walks by. She's 2 (Indiscernible *01:25:39) walk. 3 MR. : Do you remember if any - 4 another CO came by maybe around like 5:30 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um.... It's supposed to be 6 another CO that comes on at 6:00 to 2:00. I 7 don't recall them ever coming up. It says 8 But it's, as you can see, it's a 6:00 9 to 2:00 post. But I don't. Around 5:00, I 10 don't remember any other I don't remember 11 any other CO coming in. 12 MR. : Okay. What about like a 13 breakfast cart? Who would provide that? How 14 would that be done? 15 MR. THOMAS: Well the breakfast cart that 16 they push it into the hallway. I wouldn't see 17 the person down in food service that -. I mean 18 they push down the hallway and ring the bell. 19 And I don't remember who brought the food cart 20 up. But the food cart came up and we seen in 21 through our peripherals outside the hallway. 22 MR. : And then someone -. 23 MR. THOMAS: It's through a double door. 24 MR. : And then you go and you 25 get it? EFTA00113694 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Then we go and 2 retrieve it and we bring it inside the SHU. 3 Yes. 4 MR. : And do you remember who 5 it was that actually retrieved it that morning? 6 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember. I 7 think she did, I did. I don't know. I don't 8 remember exactly who did it. 9 MR. : Okay. So the only person 10 that you remember that entered the SHU was 11 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. What was her 14 purpose for visiting the SHU on August 10th? 15 MR. THOMAS: She visited all the housing 16 units. Operations lieutenant she walks around 17 the building throughout the night. 18 MR. : Part of her duties and 19 responsibilities? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Part of her duties. 21 Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. Can you just 23 briefly explain what's the process of entering 24 and exiting the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: Um.... Wow, I can't even EFTA00113695 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 remember the door. Um. You call for the door. 2 It's the 20. You call for the door to be 3 opened. I can't remember the exact number of 4 the door. You call for the door to be opened. 5 They ring the bell. You call for the door to 6 be opened. Then you have an inner door that's 7 locked. You unlock that - you call for the 8 person. The person comes in. If it's a warden 9 or anything like that, it's usually a book that 10 they have to sign saying that there entered 11 into - that they entered in or whatever the 12 case may be. They enter in. And then you open 13 the door. 14 MR. : Okay. So you initially 15 said that they call. Who? 16 MR. THOMAS: Well one of the staff members 17 inside call for the door. 18 MR. : Okay. So -. 19 MR. THOMAS: So me or Noel had to call for 20 the door to come in. 21 MR. : So someone comes at the 22 outer door the first door someone's got to go 23 through. They call you guys in the SHU. 24 MR. THOMAS: No. They ring the bell. 25 MR. : They ring the bell? EFTA00113696 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 MR. THOMAS: If the outer door -. It's -. 2 The outer door, whichever number it is, the 3 outer door. You ring the bell. It signals 4 somebody's at the door. You look and you see. 5 I see. I say can I get your name, sir? You 6 see whoever it is. You call for the door. 7 Look to see if the (Indiscernible *01:28:05) I 8 see covering at the door. I bring - I 9 call for the door. He comes in the door. Then 10 there's another door that's locked. You unlock 11 that door and then they come in and then you 12 lock that door back. 13 MR. : So my question is though 14 on the outer door. Who do you call? The 15 control center. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. You call the control 17 center. 18 MR. : Okay. And then does 19 someone from the control center? 20 MR. THOMAS: Looks down it. Well the 21 control center verifies who is at the door and 22 then they open the door. 23 MR. : Okay. And is there like 24 cameras there? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, there's a camera in the EFTA00113697 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 hallway. 2 MR. : Okay. Great. So control 3 center allows them in the door first. Do they 4 notify the people in the SHU that someone's 5 coming in? 6 MR. THOMAS: We notify them that someone 7 is coming in. 8 MR. : Oh, okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: Because we call for the door. 10 MR. : So they ring the bell, 11 you call control. 12 MR. THOMAS: Call control center. 13 MR. : Control then looks -- 14 MR. THOMAS: And opens the door. 15 MR. : -- and lets somebody in. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. And then they come 18 to that. And then does control center have any 19 involvement with them when you said you unlock 20 the door? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. Then it's another key 22 for another door. The inner door. 23 MR. : Okay. And is it just the 24 people that are in the SHU that can allow 25 someone to enter and exit? EFTA00113698 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. THOMAS: For that inner door? Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. And who was it -? 3 How are the keys worked? Who maintains control 4 of those keys? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um, for the morning watch 6 shift. There's one control key and usually the 7 number one person holds it. It's the key that 8 never leaves the thing. I can't remember 9 exactly what keys are on there. 10 MR. : When you say on there. 11 Where are they maintained? 12 MR. THOMAS: They're maintained down in 13 the control center. 14 MR. : But are they like hung up 15 somewhere? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. They're hung up on 17 like a dashboard that says -. 18 MR. : The control. Wait. I'- 19 sorry. So I'm not confused. There's a key 20 that you guys utilize to open the door that's 21 in the control center. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That utilizes. Well 23 the control center has the master keys for all 24 the doors. 25 MR. : I'm sorry. But the EFTA00113699 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 control center opens that outer door. And then 2 the inner door. Doesn't the people that are 3 assigned to the SHU have - use a key to -? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's the master key 5 that never leaves the SHU. 6 MR. : Okay. So that's the key 7 I'm talking about. Where is that key 8 maintained? You said the SHU -? 9 MR. THOMAS: Usually the number one on SHU 10 will -. 11 MR. : Like on their person? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. On the person. 13 Usually SHU 1 holds that on the person the 14 whole time. 15 MR. : Okay. So it's not hung 16 up somewhere. 17 MR. THOMAS: No. It's not hung up 18 somewhere. The SHU 1 holds that on them at al 19 times. 20 MR. : Okay. And do you recall 21 on August 9th it was Noel -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure. I'm sure she had 23 it. I'm sure she had it. 24 MR. : It was Noel then? Noel - 25 EFTA00113700 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. THOMAS: Because I had the um, the oh! 2 Door keys and cuff key. Or if I had my cuff 3 key. 4 MR. : So if you have the door 5 keys and the cuff keys, usually the other 6 person is the one that has the outer key? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. We have - 8 MR. : Or the (Indiscernible 9 *01:30:16) 10 MR. THOMAS: It rotates. During the 11 course of the day it can't rotate or anything 12 like that. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: When during the day when like 15 somebody's feeding or somebody's doing this and 16 you -. That person would take this key I'm 17 going to go feed this row or I'm about to go do 18 this. So if somebody's doing law library. It 19 can rotate. But during the course of the 20 night, usually SHU 1 has one key and then I 21 come up with the -. I eventually grab another 22 key. 23 MR. : Okay. So on August 10th 24 you said you only recall . Do 25 you recall who allowed her to enter? EFTA00113701 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. THOMAS: I -. 2 MR. : Who used the key? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember who. 4 MR. : No? 5 MR. THOMAS: No-no. I don't remember who 6 popped the door for her to come in. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. THOMAS: It had to be either me or 9 Noel. It couldn't have been nobody else. 10 MR. : And she was an authorized 11 visitor? 12 MR. THOMAS: Who? 13 MR. -: was an 14 authorized visitor? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 16 MR. : And were you with 17 ? You or Noel with 18 during her entire visit? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Did 21 ever approach Epstein's cell? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't 23 remember. 24 MR. : You don't recall? Do you 25 recall any conversations with EFTA00113702 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 with regard to Epstein? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : She didn't ask like how's 4 he doing or anything like that? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't. 6 MR. : And then who would have 7 allowed her to exit the SHU? 8 MR. THOMAS: Me or either me or Noel. 9 MR. : Okay. And is it the same 10 process? You would have to use a key to open 11 it? 12 MR. THOMAS: You have to use a key to open 13 the inner door. Then you open the inner door, 14 secure the inner door, and then you call the 15 control center to pop the outer door. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. THOMAS: Exactly what it's called. 18 MR. : And then do you recall 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall who -. 20 MR. : -- how long she was in 21 there? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. 25 MR. : But she was the EFTA00113703 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : Operations lieutenant. 2 MR. : -- supervisor -? She was 3 the operations lieutenant -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Lieutenant (Indiscernible 5 *01:31:51) 6 MR. : -- which means that she 7 was the supervisor in the SHU on August 10th 8 from 12:00 a.m. until-? 9 MR. THOMAS: She was the - I wouldn't say 10 supervisor -. Well she was supervising the 11 building on August 10th. Yes. 12 MR. : And with responsibilities 13 for the SHU? 14 MR. THOMAS: Responsibilities for SHU and 15 responsibilities of the institution. 16 MR. : Do you recall having any 17 other conversations with during 18 your shift on August 10, 2019? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : By phone call or email or 21 anything? 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm. No. 23 MR. : And did at 24 any time ever provide you with special 25 instructions with regard to Epstein? EFTA00113704 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : And again, never told you 3 that he was required to have a cellmate? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : It didn't come up the 6 fact that Reyes left the day before and Epstein 7 was without one? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. : That was just not 10 communicated? How about Lieutenant 11 ? Who is that? 12 MR. THOMAS: A lieutenant at MCC. 13 MR. : Was -? Did Lieutenant 14 replace at 15 approximately 6:00 a.m.? Are you able to tell 16 from looking at this roster? 17 MR. THOMAS: Well this one says he came in 18 at 8:00 to 4:00 or something, but I -. 19 MR. : Yeah, they were two hours 20 earlier. 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, two hours yeah. But 22 yeah, I remember seeing him. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you recall 24 having any interactions with Lieutenant 25 prior to 6:33 a.m. on August 10, 2019? EFTA00113705 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13C 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : And did Lieutenant 3 visit the SHU at all on August 10, 2019 prior 4 to 6:33 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Not that I remember. 6 MR. : Okay. And no 7 communications though? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. : And Lieutenant 10 didn't' provide you with any special 11 instructions with regard to Epstein? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : And he did not provide 14 you any instructions with regard to Epstein 15 having a cellmate? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : At any time even prior to 18 that? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : Okay. Did the control 21 center, R&D, or anyone else call the SHU on 22 August 10, 2019 about -? 23 MR. THOMAS: They would be gone by the 24 time I come in. 25 MR. : All of those people would EFTA00113706 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have been? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : In the control center? 4 MR. THOMAS: No, not the -. The control 5 center would be there, but R&D would be gone. 6 MR. : Alright. So let's say I 7 did control center or anyone else call the SHU 8 on August 10, 2019 about Epstein cellmate's 9 leaving? Or the need for Epstein to have 10 another cellmate assigned? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. That would have been 12 done prior to my shift. 13 MR. : Okay. But not during 14 your shift? 15 MR. THOMAS: Not during the midnight, no. 16 That would have been done prior. 17 MR. : Alright. So being that 18 you've been in the BOP since 2017. 19 MR. THOMAS: 2007. 20 MR. : Sorry, 2007, that's what 21 I meant. I apologize. In that Epstein was 22 required to have a cellmate, after Reyes left 23 on August 9th, what should have happened? Who 24 should have taken appropriate actions? Can you 25 just kind of walk me through how that process EFTA00113707 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 should have taken place? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um. I mean. By my 3 knowledge, like you said, from being in for 4 work, if he would have left, it would have been 5 communicated to the officers via R&D that 6 somebody had left. 7 MR. : And how would have -? 8 R&D would have been the first people to notify? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. R&D would be -. Yeah. 10 R&D would be the first people to notify that an 11 inmate has been -- 12 MR. : Released. 13 MR. THOMAS: -- taken off the count. Been 14 released. Taken off the count. 15 MR. : Okay. And then who would 16 R&D contact? 17 MR. THOMAS: R&D would contact the 18 lieutenant and contact control center. 19 MR. : So R&D would contact both 20 control center and -- 21 MR. THOMAS: And R&D. 22 MR. : -- the lieutenant? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 24 MR. : Would they at all contact 25 the SHU? Or the place where the inmate was EFTA00113708 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 released from? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well R&D would contact 3 the SHU and let them know that somebody had 4 been released. 5 MR. : So in this case, Reyes was 6 released on August 9th. Should have they 7 called all three? They should have control 8 center -. Or R&D should have contacted looks 9 like Lieutenant or potentially 10 as well as control center and the SHU staff? 11 MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world, R&D will 12 call lieutenant's office, call control, and 13 call the SHU. I'm sure somebody had to call 14 the SHU and let them know that their base count 15 has changed. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. THOMAS: Some - one way or another, 18 somebody called control to let them know that 19 the base count has changed. Who did they call? 20 I don't know, but during that - because the 21 courts close at 8:00. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: At the latest. Yeah. I 24 believe it's 8:00 p.m. So somebody called and 25 let them know. R&D got the first call that EFTA00113709 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 there would be somebody gone off your count. 2 MR. : Okay. So it wouldn't be 3 like they called the ops lieutenant and the ops 4 lieutenant would then call the SHU. R&D 5 typically would actually call all three. 6 MR. THOMAS: Usually. But I have been 7 when R&D called all three. I have been here 8 when the control center have called the SHU and 9 let them know. Yo, your base count changed. 10 Such-and-such has been released or such-a-bunch 11 has been moved to a different housing unit. 12 Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But usually you get a call 15 either from R&D or control center. 16 MR. : Not the ops lieutenant? 17 MR. THOMAS: Not the -. I mean not -. 18 I've been in when the ops lieutenant called, 19 but nah. Not typically the ops lieutenant. 20 MR. : Alright. So it's 21 typically control center. 22 MR. THOMAS: Typically your control center 23 or R&D will call and let you know that their 24 base count have changed. 25 MR. : And you've been present EFTA00113710 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 when that's actually taken place? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've been present when 3 that's taken place. 4 MR. : In the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I've been present in 6 the SHU when that's taken place. 7 MR. : Okay. So how soon after 8 -? So Epstein is required to have a cellmate. 9 How soon after Reyes' departure should have 10 Epstein been assigned a cellmate? 11 MR. THOMAS: That comes from the SHU 12 lieutenant and from operations and the staff 13 member that had to be there. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. THOMAS: If -. 16 MR. : So who -? Who had the 17 responsibility to fill Epstein's cellmate 18 requirement? Who had the responsibility to 19 place Epstein with a new cellmate? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know offhand. But 21 I don't know offhand who had the 22 responsibility. But it had to come from either 23 the SHU lieutenant. I would say first since 24 he's a high-profile, I would say from the SHU 25 lieutenant. EFTA00113711 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : Okay. And were you -? 2 We touched on this before, but in this specific 3 instance, were -. Well you weren't there. 4 MR. THOMAS: I wasn't there. 5 MR. : So would have you, if you 6 were there, would have you been it - uh, 7 authorized to assign him a new cellmate? 8 MR. THOMAS: If I was there and it came 9 down from higher-up to assign somebody, yes. 10 If I was there, yes. 11 MR. : So if someone else told 12 you to? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If somebody told me. 14 If the SHU lieutenant told me that oh listen, 15 he needs this and such like that, yeah. Just 16 go like that because he's high -. I wouldn't 17 just put somebody in his cell. 18 MR. : Okay. What about SHU 19 staff that weren't informed by higher-ups? SHU 20 staff there could have they assigned Epstein 21 with a new cellmate even temporarily? 22 MR. THOMAS: I -. Could they have? 23 MR. : Authorized. 24 MR. THOMAS: Were they -? 25 MR. : I mean that theoretically EFTA00113712 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 they could have as in like you can do anything 2 3 MR. THOMAS: You can do anything you want. 4 MR. : -- you want -- 5 MR. THOMAS: But -. 6 MR. : But were they have been 7 authorized to have -. 8 MR. THOMAS: Nah. Not with a high- 9 profile. No. I don't think they're 10 authorized. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know offhand, but I 13 wouldn't say from my knowledge for being 14 wouldn't say that they'd be authorized. It 15 would have to come from somebody else. 16 MR. : Okay. So the people that 17 are working in the SHU, what action should have 18 they taken as soon as they were aware that 19 Epstein's cellmate had left? 20 MR. THOMAS: What are we talking about? 21 MR. : So if they're, you know, 22 supposed to be conducting counts. Supposed to 23 be conducting rounds. As soon as they notice, 24 hey, Reyes is gone. Epstein is required to 25 have a cellmate. Is it their responsibility to EFTA00113713 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 notify someone? Hey, get on the phone and call 2 the ops lieutenant, control center, or 3 whomever. 4 MR. THOMAS: I would call. If it were -. 5 I would call somebody. Call somebody and let 6 them know. Operations. Epstein need a 7 cellmate. Or -. 8 MR. : Right. So the -. 9 MR. THOMAS: SHU lieutenant if he's there. 10 MR. : So the SHU lieutenant -- 11 MR. THOMAS: If the first person -. 12 MR. : -- has gone on leave -. 13 MR. THOMAS: If the SHU lieutenant has 14 gone on leave, call the operations lieutenant. 15 MR. : Okay. Alright. Now 16 we're just going to talk a little bit more 17 about rounds and counts. So the cell count. 18 What, officially, what is that? Is it 19 obtaining the official number of the inmates in 20 your housing unit? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. And can you just 23 explain the process? You touched on it before, 24 but now can you actually explain like -. So 25 when you're in the SHU for instance, and you're EFTA00113714 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 2 MR. THOMAS: What timeframe? Are we 3 talking about? 4 MR. : So your timeframe. Let's 5 talk about when you're specifically there. 6 You're there from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 7 Correct? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : And you were there for 10 both August 9th and August 10th. When should 11 have you conducted counts and how should they 12 have been conducted? 13 MR. THOMAS: How it happens is one officer 14 goes up. You have the door key to the grills - 15 the outside grill. You open the outside grill. 16 One officer walks around, count, verified. Do 17 one count, then the other office go around, 18 count, and then you all combine your numbers at 19 the end. You combine your numbers at the end 20 of each tier. And then you tally up the 21 numbers at the end. Most people write them 22 down on a piece of paper, on your hand, back of 23 a count slip -. It could be a number of 24 different various where people write them down. 25 But one person go arounds count, the next EFTA00113715 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 person go arounds, count. You all say - tell 2 each other your number. I got 15. I got 15. 3 Boom. Then you move on to the next tier. Do 4 the same form for all six tiers. And then you 5 tally up your numbers at the end. 6 MR. : Okay. So when one staff 7 member is counting the inmates, on each tier -. 8 MR. THOMAS: They're the one standing at 9 the grill. 10 MR. : At the grill. And can 11 you just explain what the grill is? 12 MR. THOMAS: It's just a door. 13 MR. : Is the door closed or 14 open? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, typically it's closed. 16 But some people leave it open. 17 MR. : Okay. So one person 18 remains outside of the tier basically at the 19 door. 20 MR. THOMAS: At the door with the key. 21 MR. : And then one staff member 22 goes around, checks on all the inmates, when - 23 and how do they check on the inmates? 24 MR. THOMAS: They look inside the, and if 25 it's not covered, they look inside a window - EFTA00113716 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 look inside the glass. I can't tell you the 2 diameter of it, but you look inside the glass 3 and you see where the inmates are 4 MR. : Now the 12:00 a.m. Is 5 there a count that's supposed to be done at 6 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m. -? 7 MR. THOMAS: 12:00, 3:00, and 5:00. 8 MR. : All a.m.? 9 MR. THOMAS: All a.m. Yes. 10 MR. : And during that time, 11 when you look in the window of the door, what 12 is it you're supposed to do? 13 MR. THOMAS: You verify flesh. Make sure 14 you can just see somebody - see somebody's 15 skin. 16 MR. : Do you need to see 17 movement? 18 MR. THOMAS: No because they could be 19 asleep. 20 MR. : Does that mean you'r= 21 supposed to hit the door or anything? Make 22 sure -. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. You're not -. 24 MR. : See if they're good? 25 MR. THOMAS: They're still human beings. EFTA00113717 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 No. They're sleep is 12:00 midnight. Some are 2 up playing chess. Some are up writing letters. 3 And some are asleep. You don't hit the door to 4 make sure that they're moving. 5 MR. : Do you shine a flashlight 6 in? 7 MR. THOMAS: Some have a flashlight. You 8 have -. 9 MR. : No, do you, as in 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, I'll have a 11 flashlight. And just flash and see live 12 breathing skin. They could be under the 13 blanket or anything like that. And -. 14 MR. : Okay. And is the purpose 15 to make-? What is the purpose? 16 MR. THOMAS: To make sure nobody has 17 escaped and see a body inside. 18 MR. : A live body? 19 MR. THOMAS: We have a live body. 20 MR. : Okay. A live body. 21 Okay. And that is the process in the SHU. 22 Correct? Like not only in the institution but 23 in the SHU? 24 MR. THOMAS: That's the process in the 25 institution. EFTA00113718 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : Right. Including the 2 SHU. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. And when 5 conducting counts, do COs have to speak with 6 inmates? 7 MR. THOMAS: We don't have to. 8 MR. : No? Now explain to me 9 what is a round? So you said you're -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Um, same process. 11 MR. : Same? 12 MR. THOMAS: It's the same process. 13 MR. : So every 30 minutes you 14 actually have to take a count as well? 15 MR. THOMAS: No you don't have to take the 16 count. The same process without the count - 17 the counting of numbers. You just walk around 18 and verify somebody is inside. 19 MR. : Just like you said with 20 the count, each one has to go around and see if 21 their numbers match up? Does each -? 22 MR. THOMAS: No you don't have to round 23 and see if the numbers match up. No. You just 24 verify that there's a body inside the cell. 25 MR. : But does someone have to EFTA00113719 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 stand at the grill and the other person walk 2 down and have to switch places and do the same 3 thing? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 5 MR. : Both ways? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. So it is the same 8 process aside from -. 9 MR. THOMAS: Well aside for the count. 10 Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So it's identical 12 other than you're actually counting during a 13 count. 14 MR. THOMAS: The same. Exactly. What you 15 just said. 16 MR. : Okay. And with a round, 17 you also don't need to speak with them. You 18 just have to make sure that they're in there 19 and they're alive? 20 MR. THOMAS: Just make sure that they're - 21 yeah for the round. Just make sure that 22 they're in there. 23 MR. : Okay. Um. And at all 24 times do two officers needed to do the rounds 25 and the counts? EFTA00113720 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to be. Yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: Supposed to. 4 MR. : And what is the primary 5 purpose of conducing counts and rounds? 6 MR. THOMAS: To make sure there's a body 7 inside the cell? 8 MR. : Okay. And like you said, 9 no one has escaped and that there's -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Make sure somebody's 11 in there. 12 MR. : Now are cell counts and 13 rounds documented? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. And do the COs 16 sign documents after they conduct counts and 17 rounds? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 MR. : Um. Now if you - in this 20 case from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. there's two 21 people that are assigned to the SHU. Correct? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 MR. : And two people have to 24 actually conduct the rounds. Correct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113721 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : So if you and Noel are 2 the only two officers in the SHU, were you both 3 responsible for documenting the round sheets 4 and the count slips? 5 MR. THOMAS: Documenting the count slips. 6 Not the round sheet. Whoever -. I mean it 7 doesn't -. If I'm not mistaken, there's no 8 direct responsibility. Whoever wants to do it 9 or do it it's no assigned or number one has to 10 do this or number one has to do that. The only 11 thing we both have to do is sign a count slip. 12 As far as signing a round sheet and um -. 13 MR. : So both have to sing the 14 counts. But for the rounds sheets, if one 15 person signs it, are they basically signing for 16 the both of you? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If you're going to 18 They sign it for the both -. Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : So both people are 22 responsible for that signature? For the 23 rounds? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well because I can sign it. 25 She can sign it. It doesn't make a difference EFTA00113722 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE li 1 but -. 2 MR. : But she's signing on 3 behalf of the both of you? 4 MR. THOMAS: Sign that the rounds were 5 completed. Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. And what do you do 7 with the documents after they're signed? So 8 let's talk about rounds first. After the round 9 sheets are signed -. Can you just explain to 10 me what a round sheet is? Is it -? Do you 11 keep everything on one document? 12 MR. THOMAS: All for -. Excuse me for -- 13 MR. : For rounds? 14 MR. THOMAS: -- for all three, shifts are 15 all on one document. Yes. 16 MR. : So starting on each date 17 from 12:00 a.m. to the -. 18 MR. THOMAS: If it says 12:00 a.m., I 19 can't remember the exact date. It should start 20 from 001 or maybe it's 1201 and continue on. 21 MR. : Okay. And what about 22 counts? Sorry, what do you do with those 23 sheets? Sorry. After you documents the 30- 24 minutes 25 MR. THOMAS: Uh, they stay there. I guess EFTA00113723 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 they get sent to the lieutenant's office at the 2 end -. They get sent to the lieutenant's 3 office at the end of the day. 4 MR. : At the end of a day not 5 the end of a shift? 6 MR. THOMAS: Not the end of the shift. At 7 the end of the day. 8 MR. : Okay. And who collects 9 them? 10 MR. THOMAS: Uh, internal usually collects 11 them. 12 MR. : And what is internal? 13 MR. THOMAS: Um, how do you explain 14 internal? Um. The guy that -. The staff 15 member that rides up the elevator and at the 16 end of the day you collect five security 17 sheets, round sheets, and all - a bunch of 18 different paperwork and you take -. 19 MR. : Is internal like a part 20 of control? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. It's a person in an 22 elevator. Because inmates can't ride the 23 elevators by themselves because we're in a high 24 rise. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113724 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. THOMAS: So it's not like a compound 2 center. So the officer on, that usually 3 collects all the rounds sheets if somebody else 4 hasn't done it, the officer on the elevator 5 will usually do it. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: Which is called internal. 8 MR. : Is it a lieutenant or an 9 officer or either or? 10 MR. THOMAS: It's an officer. It's an 11 officer. 12 MR. : It's an officer? Okay. 13 Um. And do you call anyone with the numbers 14 for either counts or rounds? 15 MR. THOMAS: You call control center. 16 MR. : Do you call them or do 17 they call you? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. You call them. 19 MR. : You call them? And who 20 do you call in the control center? Do you ask 21 for someone? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. You call C&A. I forgot. 23 And don't ask me what C&A stands for. But it's 24 - because you have a control center and then 25 you have another person -. And if it's still EFTA00113725 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 two because it used to be one at one time, but 2 you have the control center. And then another 3 person in there um and the person is called 4 C&A. And you would call them and they have a 5 um, a sheet that they call for the count. That 6 they verify for the count. 7 MR. : Is it just for the 8 counts? Not of the rounds? 9 MR. THOMAS: It's just for the counts. 10 MR. : Okay. When you call do 11 you give them a number? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. You call and give them 13 a number. 14 MR. : Okay. And is it just one 15 overall number? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. It's one overall 17 number. 18 MR. : For the SHU. So it would 19 be -. You wouldn't say per tier. You would 20 say -. 21 MR. THOMAS: No-no. It's just one No- 22 no. No. They just say one base count of the 23 whole SHU. 24 MR. : Okay. So on August 10 25 during your shift, from 12:00 a.m. to EFTA00113726 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE L. 1 approximately 6:33 a.m., when did you conduct 2 rounds in the SHU? 3 MR. THOMAS: On August 10th? I didn't. 4 MR. : No rounds were conducted? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall doing any 6 rounds. 7 MR. : Okay. And when did you 8 conduct cells during your shift in the SHU on 9 August 10th? 10 MR. THOMAS: Cells 11 MR. : Sorry Cell counts. My 12 bad. When did you conduct the counts during 13 your shift? 14 MR. THOMAS: I didn't. 15 MR. : You didn't. Okay. And 16 did Noel? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. No. She didn't. 18 MR. : No, she didn't? So no 19 one conducted rounds or counts on August 10, 20 2019? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. On my shift, no. 22 MR. : Okay. Prior to 6:33 a.m. 23 on August 10, 2019, when was the last time you 24 conducted a round within the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: I -. EFTA00113727 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 MR. : Would you have conducted 2 rounds on August 9, 2019? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Prior. The day. The 4 day prior. 5 MR. : And do you recall if you 6 actually conducted any rounds that day? 7 MR. THOMAS: I probably did it for the 8 rounds and then my counts. I probably did a 9 couple there. Yes. 10 MR. : A couple? 11 MR. THOMAS: I know I did my count. I 12 don't know if I did my -. I don't know how 13 many rounds that I did. 14 MR. : Okay. Do you know if you 15 did the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 16 a.m. --? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 18 MR. : -- on August 9th? 19 MR. THOMAS: I would assume I did. Yes. 20 MR. : Assumption? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 22 MR. : So if we go back to the 23 video, will we be able to see that you did 24 those? 25 MR. THOMAS: You'll see if I did it. Mm- EFTA00113728 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr 1 hmm. 2 MR. : Alright. So you're 3 belief is that August 9th you did actually 4 conduct those rounds? 5 MR. THOMAS: I would assume I did my 6 counts. Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. Were all the 8 rounds that were document conducted on August 9 9th? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 11 MR. : No? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 13 MR. : Would you guess that they 14 weren't? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. I would guess that they 16 were before anything else. Before I said that 17 they weren't, I would guess that they were. 18 Some rounds were probably conducted. 19 MR. : Okay. Some were 20 conducted. So maybe some weren't? 21 MR. THOMAS: Maybe some wasn't. I mean 22 nobody's perfect. 23 MR. : Okay. Alright. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:50:01), 25 one person have to do the round. Where's the EFTA00113729 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 notebook? 2 MR. THOMAS: That's the round sheet. Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So this is August 4 10, 2019. The round sheets shows 12 through 5 and it was only signed up until 6:00, 6:30. 6 MR. : Different dates. 7 MR. : The (Indiscernible 8 *01:50:21) the tiers. Okay. Can you just 9 explain are these - is this for the overall SHU 10 and the different tiers listed on it? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Alright. Now -. 13 MR. THOMAS: Well this is not -. It's not 14 It's not labeled at different tiers. No. 15 It's not labeled at different tiers. Well yes. 16 Each paper is a different tier. 17 MR. : Yeah. So like this says 18 Tier G. That one is Tier H. 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Correct? 21 MR. THOMAS: Each thing is a 22 MR. : Tier J. 23 MR. THOMAS: different tier. 24 MR. : Tier K. 25 MR. THOMAS: Tier L. EFTA00113730 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 MR. : Tier L. 2 MR. THOMAS: And -. 3 MR. : That's a different count. 4 Okay. So these are what's signed after a round 5 is conducted? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Alright. And these were 8 all -- 9 MR. THOMAS: All -. 10 MR. : -- signed but none were 11 actually conducted? Is that correct? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. Are any of these 14 signatures actually yours? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : Okay. So whose 17 signatures are - whose initials are these? 18 MR. THOMAS: It's Noel's. 19 MR. : Alright. But as you 20 mentioned before, you are both actually 21 responsible for signing? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. We're not both 23 responsible 24 MR. : I know, but responsible 25 for -- EFTA00113731 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 MR. THOMAS: for signing. 2 MR. conducting them. 3 MR. THOMAS: Both are supposed to be 4 conducting, but yeah. Both are responsible for 5 conducting. 6 MR. : Okay. So why didn't you 7 guys conduct the rounds? 8 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you. I was 9 tired that day. As you can see by the paper, 10 do a lot of overtime which is -. I was just 11 tired. Just exhausted that day. 12 MR. : Um. Alright. Can you 13 just initial and date this? Thank you, sir. 14 Um, and you said that you also didn't conduct 15 any of the cell counts on the SHU on August 10, 16 2019. Correct? 17 MR. THOMAS: Cell counts. What do you 18 mean cell counts? 19 MR. : The counts, so that was 20 the rounds. These are the counts. 21 MR. THOMAS: Counts. Yes. 22 MR. : Sorry. The inmate 23 counts. I don't know why I -somebody wrote 24 Okay. So the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., the 25 5:00 a.m. None of them were conducted? EFTA00113732 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : Um. Are these the three 3 where they're -. Yep. Can you just tell me 4 what it is we're looking at here? It looks 5 like this is the overall 12:00 a.m. -. 6 MR. THOMAS: Institution count. Yes. 7 MR. : So this is the 8 institution count? And this is the - for all 9 three of those counts - 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., 10 5:00 a.m.? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Alright. Awesome. 13 MR. MITCHELL: And the number doesn't 14 change? Or anything? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Alright. So 17 (Indiscernible *01:53:06) A2, B2.... So is 18 that the time of the count? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. That's not the time of 20 the counts on either one of them. No. That':-, 21 not the time of the counts. 22 MULTIPLE INDIVIDUALS: [Indiscernible 23 *01:53:25 to *01:53:30] 24 MR. : Look at the bottom. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, the time when it was EFTA00113733 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 printed and the time it was printed. 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:53:37) 3 at the top and at the bottom is the time of the 4 count. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. What time -? 6 MR. : The first one was at 7 12:49 was when it would have been cleared? Is 8 that correct? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : And then this one would 11 have been at 3:00, it looks like -- 12 MR. THOMAS: 3:24. 13 MR. : -- 3:24. I don't know 14 what the 3:19 on here means. 15 MR. THOMAS: It means good verbal. GV 16 means good verbal. 17 MR. : Oh, okay. So good verbal 18 at 3:19 and -. 19 MR. THOMAS: Clear counted. Yeah. 20 MR. : And the next one was 5:30 21 a.m. 22 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Okay. Alright. Awesome. 24 Um. So that's the overall count. And let's -. 25 Can you just tell me what each of -? What are EFTA00113734 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 these pages? 2 MR. THOMAS: That's just for - the 3 hospital which is the suicide room. 4 MR. : So these -. 5 MR. THOMAS: That means these three 6 inmates were out of their cells. They were 7 down at the suicide room. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I mean those four inmates. 10 MR. : And what about this? 11 What's that? 12 MR. THOMAS: That's just the paperwork 13 that's in the computer system saying that they 14 were taken from one place to another. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: They were taken from their 17 cells to the hospital. 18 MR. : Okay. And are these the 19 actual count slips? 20 MR. THOMAS: These are actual count slips. 21 MR. : Alright. Can you find 22 which count slips were the ones from the SHU on 23 August 10th? 24 MR. THOMAS: It would say ZA. 25 MR. : I think it might be the EFTA00113735 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 next page. Okay. So that's ZA. The very last 2 page. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And whose signatures are 5 on those? 6 MR. THOMAS: Mine and Noel's. 7 MR. : You and Noel. Okay. And 8 you actually did sign that? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And it says 11 8/10/19. And what does the time say there? 12 MR. THOMAS: 12:01. 13 MR. : Who would have filled 14 that part out? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, the 16 MR. : Can you tell by the -? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That looks like my 18 handwriting. 19 MR. : So your handwriting would 20 have filled that out? Alright. And did you 21 have conversations with Noel at that time? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't recall any 23 conversations with her. 24 MR. : You don't recall? So was 25 it like hey, we're tired, let's just fill this EFTA00113736 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 out? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. It could 3 have been. I don't recall saying that. But it 4 could have been something to that nature. 5 MR. : Alright. Can you - so 6 what number do you have on there? 7 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 8 MR. : What's that count? 9 MR. THOMAS: 73. 10 MR. : Can you look at the first 11 page? And see where it says ZA? What number 12 is on there? 13 MR. THOMAS: 72. 14 MR. : Do you remember having 15 any conversations with control center or the 16 ops lieutenant about the fact that those 17 numbers are different? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. 19 MR. : So do you remember -? 20 Were you the one who called that number in that 21 night? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 23 MR. : You don't remember? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 25 MR. : You don't remember -? EFTA00113737 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 And I only say this just because of everything 2 that's surrounding this. These were the three 3 counts prior and obviously -- 4 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- this is kind of the 6 reason for us interviewing you. 7 MR. THOMAS: But then also, if -. 8 MR. : DO you remember if - it 9 says here. You can look at the next -. So. 10 MR. THOMAS: No-no. I'm just saying 11 somebody -. 12 MR. : This is ZA. What does 13 that number say? 14 MR. THOMAS: 72. 15 MR. : Whose handwriting is 16 this? 17 MR. THOMAS: This one is mine. That's 18 mine. 19 MR. : So that's all yours? And 20 you did sign this one? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : And this is the 3:00 a.m. 23 count? 24 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : And what does this say? EFTA00113738 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1, 1 MR. THOMAS: 72. 2 MR. : Alright. So do you 3 recall a conversation with the ops lieutenant 4 with regard to that discrepancy? 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 6 recall a conversation with (Indiscernible 7 *01:56:31) the discrepancy, but I'm sure that 8 another one was sent down changing the -. 9 Because they wanted to clear, I'm sure that 10 another one was sent down saying 72 with the 11 correct number on it. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. THOMAS: I mean I -. The person that 14 I can see that's down there definitely would 15 have verified that. Oh, you have the wrong 16 number. And switched it out. 17 MR. : Okay. And -. 18 MR. THOMAS: That's just -. 19 MR. : Do you remember though 20 speaking with the person on the phone and 21 saying that -. 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I don't. 23 MR. : You don't remember any 24 conversation with them telling you you've got 25 to do a new count. A new count slip. EFTA00113739 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall any 2 conversation, but I'm almost -. I would be 3 sure that he didn't just let that just go with 4 the wrong number on there. Or maybe he did. 5 Maybe he didn't. 6 MR. : Well I think it was a 7 "she." Would you have spoken to -? 8 MR. THOMAS: It's "he." 9 MR. : Oh this person is "he"? 10 So it wouldn't have been that did 11 this one? 12 MR. THOMAS: What do you mean? 13 MR. : Who would have -? Can 14 you tell which -? Because doesn't the ops 15 lieutenant have to take one of the counts? 16 MR. MITCHELL: Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Can you tell who it was 18 that took this count on 12:00 a.m.? 19 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't' tell by not 20 handwriting. It says -. Well I don't know who 21 took it. It doesn't say who took it. It just 22 say who prepared it. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you at all 24 recall speaking with about these 25 counts on August 10, 2019? EFTA00113740 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't. No. 2 MR. : No? So is this the first 3 that you're even noticing that the count -? 4 MR. THOMAS: That the count slip was 5 wrong? Yes. This is my first time besides in 6 the -. This is my first time in the -. 7 MR. : Would that be a big deal 8 if you're sending in a count slip that's wrong 9 though? 10 MR. THOMAS: Would it be a big -? It's a 11 Yes. It would be a big deal as far as the 12 wrong count being called in. And then the 13 correct count slip would have been changed 14 before the count was cleared. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: So I'm sure the correct count 17 slip probably was sent down. It's just 18 obviously not here. 19 MR. : But being that it's kind 20 of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your 21 memory of any kind of correction to this? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. It's not sparking my 23 memory by any kind of (Indiscernible *01:58:22) 24 but I'm sure a correct count slip would have 25 been sent down. EFTA00113741 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: It wouldn't have just been 3 left at 73 on there and that's the wrong 4 number. 5 MR. : So if that - a new count 6 slip would have been sent down, is there any 7 reason for them to have that count slip that 8 was originally prepared attached to this 9 document? 10 MR. THOMAS: Unless it got misplaced. No. 11 I don't know they would put that one onto this 12 document. 13 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. Were 14 any supervisors present? Or are supervisors -? 15 So you already said you didn't conduct any 16 counts, so obviously no supervisors were 17 present for any counts or rounds during your 18 shift. Correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Were they required to be 21 present for any counts or rounds during their 22 shift? 23 MR. THOMAS: They're required to take one 24 count. I don't know which count they're 25 required -. I don't know what's the book EFTA00113742 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 thing. But which one they required. But are 2 they required to take rounds in the SHU while 3 I'm there? I don't know. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if they're 6 actually supposed to have to do one round per 7 unit or anything like that. I really don't 8 know that. 9 MR. : So when you say they are 10 required to take one count, do you mean in the 11 control center? 12 MR. THOMAS: In the control center 13 downstairs. Yes. 14 MR. : Yeah. They're supposed 15 to take an institution count. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Exactly. 17 MR. : But are they required to 18 go to the SHU and physically do either a round 19 or a count -- 20 MR. THOMAS: I -. 21 MR. : -- during each shift? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 23 MR. : Did they ever do that 24 during any of your morning - your shifts from 25 midnight to 8:00 a.m.? EFTA00113743 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. THOMAS: Did they ever come take a 2 count with me? 3 MR. : Do a round or a count 4 with you? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I've seen them do it 6 before. I've seen them just come. Some will 7 count a unit for you from time-to-time. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall that night - 10 which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants, oh 11 well I'm going to be here. I'll count that 12 unit so you don't have to worry about it. 13 Since we'd be so shorthanded sometimes they - 14 if they're out and about at that time, they'll 15 just take it then. They'll take the 3:00 16 count. Like I said, it varies. There's no - 17 As far as I know, there's no black-and-white 18 way of how to do it. 19 MR. : Okay. So you don't know 20 of a -- 21 MR. THOMAS: As far as -. 22 MR. : -- requirement saying 23 that you know a lieutenant needs to do a count 24 or a round? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I don't know of any EFTA00113744 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 requirement. 2 MR. : So you think when people 3 did it in the SHU, you think Your 4 understanding was they were doing it just to 5 help you out? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. If they did it while I 7 was in the SHU. Yes. 8 MR. : Um. Do you recall when 9 you worked in the SHU if there were any recent 10 times -? Like I know you worked on August 9th. 11 Do you remember at all -? I know it's a 12 different day. 13 MR. THOMAS: On the 6th I think is -. 14 MR. : Do you remember at that 15 time if a lieutenant helped or assisted with a 16 count -- 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't. 18 MR. : -- or a round? 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't. I don't. 20 MR. : You don't? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't. 22 MR. : Fair enough. Um. 23 Alright. So you already said. We don't need 24 to go through all these individually -- 25 MR. THOMAS: Okay. EFTA00113745 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 MR. : -- one by one. You said 2 you didn't do the 12:00 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., and 3 the 5:00 a.m. What conversation did you have 4 with Noel about this during that time? 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 6 MR. : I know I asked you 7 specifically about the 12:00 a.m. But what 8 about it during your shift at all? Like not 9 doing any of the counts or any of the rounds. 10 What conversations did you have with Noel? 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember having any 12 conversations with her about it. No. 13 MR. : So it wasn't even 14 discussed like, hey we're just - it's a long 15 night, we're all tired. Let's just not do 16 these. 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 18 MR. : No? 19 MR. THOMAS: I don't think so. I don.': 20 remember anything like that. No. 21 MR. : Alright. So no one of 22 them were conducted, but no conversations with 23 regard to it? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember any 25 conversations with us talking about it or EFTA00113746 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 anything like that. 2 MR. : Okay. And on the 12:00 3 a.m., at 3:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. Did you call in 4 the counts or did Noel call in the counts? 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember who called 6 in the counts. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. It had to 9 be either one. There's only us two there. I 10 don't remember who did it exactly. I really 11 don't. 12 MR. : Alright. So like you 13 said with regard to the rounds that are signed. 14 Both are responsible. You know you're supposed 15 to both conduct it. One actually has to sign - 16 17 MR. THOMAS: Somebody has to call it in. 18 MR. : Somebody has to call it 19 in. So you're both take responsibility for 20 calling them in. You both take responsibly for 21 signing the round sheets? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So if you're 24 documenting these rounds. Did you document 25 these counts? You obviously had to document EFTA00113747 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 the counts at the time that they were called 2 in. Correct? Because you've got to provide 3 the count slip. 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 5 MR. : So if you're preparing 6 that count slip, why aren't you just -? How 7 long does it take to conduct a count? 8 MR. THOMAS: 15 minutes - 10, 15 minutes. 9 MR. : So if you're preparing 10 the count slip, why aren't you just conducting 11 them? 12 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, just exhausted. 13 Most of the time, as you can see by my monthly, 14 I do a lot of overtime. Like I said. Again, 15 I'm usually the internal. I do prefer 16 internal. But as you can see, I do SHU quite a 17 bit as well. And it's just something that just 18 happened. Um. It's really no easy way of 19 putting it. It's just something that just 20 happened. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: Regrettably. 23 MR. : So how often would you 24 document cell counts that you didn't conduct? 25 MR. THOMAS: Not often at all. EFTA00113748 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Not often? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : Would it be like one per 4 shift? Two per shift? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. Like -. I mean like I 6 said, no one's perfect and everything like 7 that. But I could say I've done - I usually 8 get up and do a round. Just walk around and 9 everything like that. And it shows that I 10 walked around and everything like that. But 11 it's not very often that I just said, fuck it. 12 Excuse my language. That I just disregard my 13 jobs and my duties. It's definitely not often 14 at all. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: But um, like I said, I just - 17 18 MR. : It happened in the past. 19 You just don't know how it -. 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did. It's — I'm sure 21 it's happened in the past. Like I said, I'm 22 not going sit up and say I'm perfect. I get 23 everything on the dot - bullet that. But I try 24 to get as most of it like that. Sometimes you 25 have bad days. Sometimes you have good days. EFTA00113749 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 But with everything else, I just had one and I 2 know it was a bad day. 3 MR. : What about rounds? How 4 often would they be not -? 5 MR. THOMAS: Same thing. Same thing. 6 MR. : Same thing? 7 MR. THOMAS: Same thing. You get as many 8 as rounds as you can. I don't know what's the 9 number of if it's 7, 10, or 12 or whatever the 10 case of the number it is. But you do get the 11 rounds in and everything. Even if you get them 12 done. If you don't get them done by every half 13 an hour, you know what I mean. I've done them 14 every hour one time. You know just being 15 exhausted. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. THOMAS: But I do get some done and 18 like I said, this particular time I guess I 19 didn't get anything done. 20 MR. : Now is - does it have 21 anything to do with like being the 12:00 a.m. 22 to 8:00 a.m. shift? You know, why do they have 23 three separate counts at that time? Is there a 24 -? 25 MR. THOMAS: That's an institution thing. EFTA00113750 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 MR. : Is that when inmates like 2 typically try to harm themselves? Is that why 3 they're done more often from that time? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's actually changed. 5 Before the count was done at 9:45. Now it's 6 done at 10:00. Like it's -. I don't know the 7 particular reason why. That's just standard 8 BOP protocol since I've been there. To just 9 make those counts. 10 MR. : Okay. DO you know of 11 other staff members that are also entering on 12 these - their slip counts and rounds that 13 they're not -? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what other staff 15 members do. I'm locked in wherever. If I'm on 16 internal or if I'm on the (Indiscernible 17 *02:05:17). If I'm on one unit, I don't know 18 what another housing unit is doing. 19 MR. : Sure. So you mentioned 20 that there were certainly were other times that 21 you didn't do counts or rounds. So obviously 22 I'm assuming you weren't always working with 23 Noel. Correct? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I wasn't always working 25 with Noel. EFTA00113751 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 MR. : So I'm assuming those 2 counts and rounds weren't conducted with 3 another staff member. Correct? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. I said they were 5 conducted -. 6 MR. : Not all of them. 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I did say maybe not all 8 of them or maybe most of them. Or maybe all of 9 them was conducted. You know what I mean? It's 10 not always as a (Indiscernible *02:05:48) just 11 not done at all. 12 MR. : Well -. 13 MR. THOMAS: But I have conducted my 14 counts before. Absolutely. 15 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. But I 16 want to make sure that we're certain that 17 obviously you -- 18 MR. THOMAS: that I said that I'm not 19 perfect? 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah. That you 21 didn't conduct all of your counts that were 22 documented. 23 MR. THOMAS: You can be certain that I'm 24 not perfect that I've conducted every single 25 one of mine all the time. But I've conducted EFTA00113752 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 most of my counts for most of the time. 2 MR. : Okay. Gotcha. 3 MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. 4 MR. : So when that happens 5 though, would you have conversations with staff 6 members in general? Like hey man, it's just a 7 long day. Let's not do this one. 8 MR. THOMAS: Um. Absolutely that depends 9 on so many different variables. There's really 10 no conversations about well you know we're not 11 going to do this or anything like that. 12 There's really no conversations about that 13 MR. : I would just think that 14 if there's no -. If it's supposed to be done 15 and there's no conversations about it, that 16 just seems like they're never done. So what do 17 you have to say -- 18 MR. THOMAS: Not really because -. 19 MR. : -- like okay let's skip 20 this one. 21 MR. THOMAS: -- you've got -. Like I said, 22 I'm not the only one that does this actually 23 looks a lot different from what I'm used to 24 seeing. As you can see because right now, 25 these only have stars. Some people have S by EFTA00113753 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 their name because they did more overtime than 2 others. So if they - sometimes you could just 3 be tired. Sometimes it doesn't have to be a 4 conversation. Somebody just didn't bother you 5 and you just did the round at all. I'm -. 6 MR. : Do you almost like wait 7 for someone to take the initiative and if they 8 don't take the initiative, you both just kind 9 sit there? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. No. Like I said, it 11 just -. It could happen in any different 12 variable way. You know what I mean? But most 13 the time, I would say most of those guys in 14 there do their counts. 15 MR. : Okay. Are more counts 16 not being done in that morning shift though 17 versus the day shift? 18 MR. THOMAS: Again, I don't know what 19 other people do. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. THOMAS: When they're in their housing 22 units or not. 23 MR. : Okay. And is it kind of 24 a common practice at the MCC not to do rounds 25 in the SHU? And the counts? EFTA00113754 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. THOMAS: No. It's not a common 2 practice. I don't want to say that. 3 MR. : You wouldn't say it's a 4 common practice? So this was an unusual even 5 you're saying? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Definitely an unusual 7 event. 8 MR. : Um. 9 MR. THOMAS: Definitely. 10 MR. : Okay. I'm going to move 11 on to the next thing. Let's just talk a little 12 bit about the SHU layout. Do you have a uh -? 13 Do you mind - just so we can get these away 14 from you - do you mind just initialing 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 16 MR. : -- and dating the top 17 there? Both the rosters as well as the count 18 slips. We already did the rounds. Correct? 19 MR. : The rounds -. Yeah. 20 MR. : So just initial and date 21 the top. It's just to show that we're - 22 MR. THOMAS: That we spoke about it. 23 MR. : It's what we discussed. 24 And this one we didn't actually go over. My 25 bad. Thank you, sir for initialing and dating EFTA00113755 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 those. So this is the layout of the SHU. It 2 looks like -. You said that there's two levels 3 in the SHU. Correct? It starts on the 9th 4 floor. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. It starts on the 9th 6 floor and goes all the way up to the 10th. 7 MR. : Okay. Are you able to 8 tell by this - by looking at the letters which 9 one is the first floor and which one is the 10 second? 11 MR. THOMAS: No, I can't tell. 12 MR. : That isn't the cells. 13 MR. : So like the cell numbers 14 and stuff. Do you know which ones are like L, 15 H, all that kind of stuff? 16 MR. THOMAS: By the numbers? No. I 17 couldn't tell you which number is what. What 18 stay is -. Nah, I couldn't tell you what 19 number. That could be -. No. I really 20 couldn't tell you what numbers are what. 21 MR. : That's fine. So they're 22 Are they basically? 23 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure that this could be 24 the top and this could the -. 25 MR. : Are they basically EFTA00113756 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 identical layouts though? 2 MR. THOMAS: On everyone except for 3 Yeah. Every housing unit is set up the same. 4 Absolutely. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: Except for -. 7 MR. : So it looks like they're 8 Aside from this. This says stairs. So it 9 says kitchen area. Would the kitchen area be 10 on the first? And which is the second? 11 MR. THOMAS: The kitchen are is on every 12 housing unit. 13 MR. : You have to tell me a 14 (Indiscernible *02:10:04). 15 MR. THOMAS: It's in a 16 MR. : Like as far as so like 17 this is what I'm noticing as a difference. 18 These cells look like they're all the same 19 aside from here. It looks like there's 20 visiting activity. And then here it says 21 kitchen area. And here it has this area. So 22 by looking at that are you able to tell what's 23 the first and what's the second? So I'm 24 noticing the difference between this and this. 25 MR. THOMAS: Right. Yeah. Okay. This EFTA00113757 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 would -. No. Because this says office. 2 would have said this would have been the 3 bottom, but this says office. Maybe -. This 4 got to be the bottom because the visiting 5 floor. But -. 6 MR. : This says M over here. See, 7 this has M in front of it. This has K. 8 MR. : These are the tiers. 9 MR. THOMAS: M, H. Yeah. Okay. Okay. 10 Yeah, this is a tier. Okay. 11 MR. : That's what I was saying 12 by the (Indiscernible *02:10:57). 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh in front of there. You 14 said -. See I heard you say (Indiscernible 15 *02:11:00). So H would be the -. This would. 16 I think K is the -. G is - Where's G? G is 17 the top. There we go. 18 MR. : That's what I thought. 19 So and these are the L tier over here. 20 MR. THOMAS: Oh because this is 10 South. 21 That's a -. This is 10 South. 22 MR. : And just since you 23 mentioned it. What is 10 South? 24 MR. THOMAS: Another housing unit inside 25 the institution. EFTA00113758 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 MR. : Is it the super-secure, 2 one inmate per cell. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 4 MR. : It has cameras in it. 5 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Cameras all around and 6 everything like that. 7 MR. : Right. So high-profile 8 type of thing. 9 MR. THOMAS: High-profile inmates and 10 everything like that go in there. Yes. 11 MR. : Alright. So did you say then 12 this is because that's 10 South this is the 13 second floor? 14 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 15 MR. : Alright. I'm just going 16 to write on top of this right here "second." 17 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Second floor. And on 19 this one I'm just going to write first floor. 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You separated by 21 floors but they're all in one place. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 MR. THOMAS: Like it's not -. 24 MR. : yeah-yeah-yeah. 25 MR. THOMAS: It's not two different EFTA00113759 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 separate floors. When you're saying floor I'm 2 thinking 9th floor, 7th floor. But this is all 3 technically -. 4 MR. : It's all the SHU. 5 MR. THOMAS: It's all the SHU. Yeah. 6 MR. : Correct. But there are 7 two floors in the SHU. Right? 8 MR. THOMAS: No it's really not Well 9 yeah. It's not two floors. 10 MR. : Like a split-level 11 almost? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know how to explain 13 it. It's not two floors like that because then 14 you would say it's three floors. Because when 15 you go down - you go down the steps into one. 16 And you just go up the stairs but it's all in 17 one area. 18 MR. : Okay. So -- 19 MR. THOMAS: Like this would all be 10 20 South. 21 MR. : -- when I say -. 22 MR. THOMAS: And this all would be nine. 23 And then all this would be seven. But right 24 here, you'll go down and then you'll go up. 25 But it's still all on the same floor. EFTA00113760 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: It's all on the 9th floor. 3 MR. : So it's all 9th floor. So 4 is this the second level of the 9th floor? 5 MR. THOMAS: The second level of the 9th 6 floor. 7 MR. : Should I change 2nd floor 8 to 2nd level? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yeah just like Yeah. 10 Because you say floor you're thinking like you 11 went from one floor to another. Like this is 12 the third floor and downstairs would be the 2nd 13 floor. 14 MR. : Sure 15 MR. THOMAS: But this is all - it's all on 16 one. 17 MR. : So 9th floor 2nd level. 18 Is that correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Okay. I don't have a 20 problem with that. 21 MR. : So 9th floor 22 MR. THOMAS: First level. 23 MR. : First level. Alright. 24 So can you tell me where is it that the 25 officer's station is set up? Where are you EFTA00113761 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 when you work in the SHU? Is it all in a 2 centralized location? I'm assuming it's on the 3 first floor? 4 MR. THOMAS: It's on the first floor and 5 it would be roughly it'll be -. This is kind 6 of set up crazy. But it would be over. No 7 because that's K, L, so this would be -. It's 8 in between K and - 9 MR. : This is the kitchen area. 10 This is recreation. Would it be somewhere over 11 like here or -? 12 MR. THOMAS: Well see, because of the way 13 that this is set up. It would be somewhere 14 over here. But it's not level with the tiers. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: Like because how this is set 17 up if I say that -. May I? 18 MR. : Yeah. You can even draw. 19 MR. THOMAS: Alright. Like I'm saying 20 it's in this space here. Officers station. 21 But it's not on the same level as the tiers. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: Like the way if I say 24 officer's station -- 25 MR. : So it's like below it? EFTA00113762 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. THOMAS: -- you're thinking it goes 2 down. If I say officer's station here, you're 3 thinking that - you're thinking that it's right 4 next to K tier and M tier. But it's not like 5 that. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: Like this is The 8 officer's station would be somewhere in this 9 general area right here. But then K tier is 10 over here but it's downstairs. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: And then J tier is upstairs 13 but it's still on the 9th floor. But it just 14 goes - like I said, it has steps here. Like 15 how it is. It's got steps going down to one, 16 steps going down to two. So they're not on the 17 same -- 18 MR. : I understand. 19 MR. THOMAS: -- floor as the officer's 20 station. 21 MR. : So you think it's actually 22 outside here and not more like in here? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It's kind of like in 24 between. I would say more like here. Like in 25 between them. EFTA00113763 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : Okay. So from the 2 officer's station can you see like the doors to 3 the cells? 4 MR. THOMAS: You can see doors to the 5 cells. Yes. 6 MR. : You can? 7 MR. THOMAS: You can see inside the cells, 8 absolutely not. But I can see the doors to the 9 cell. 10 MR. : So you can see the doors 11 but you can't see inside? 12 MR. THOMAS: You can't see inside the 13 cells. No. You could just see the door. 14 MR. : Alright. Could you see 15 he door to Epstein's cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: You can see his door from. 17 Yes. You can see his door from there. 18 MR. : Okay. So from the 19 officer's station, was Epstein pretty much the 20 closest cell to the officer's station? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : It wasn't? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, it's not the closest. 24 The M tier because if I'm not mistaken, Epstein 25 was on the second tier. So he would have been EFTA00113764 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 on L tier. He would have been up here. So all 2 the cells in M tier just right here would have 3 been the closest to the officer's station. N 4 tier and even this tier would be closer than. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: If I'm not mistaken, Epstein 7 was up this -. 8 MR. : Do you remember which 9 cell he was in? 10 MR. THOMAS: I - up This one. 11 MR. : DO you mind just marking 12 that like put a star or something? Okay. But 13 you could see his door, but you just couldn't - 14 But -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, you could see -. 16 MR. : -- it wasn't the closest. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, it's not the closest to 18 it. 19 MR. : Is it - does it sit up 20 there though if you can see like from down 21 here. You can see there? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know why he would sit 23 there in that particular cell. 24 MR. : But you can see the door? 25 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. EFTA00113765 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : Okay. And - I'll just go 2 through -. And you said you couldn't see 3 actually inside the cell though? 4 MR. THOMAS: No, you can't see inside the 5 cell. No. Absolutely not. 6 MR. : And you, approximately 7 like how far would that be from the officer's 8 station? Epstein's cell? The estimate was 15 9 feet. 10 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 11 MR. : Does that sound right? 12 MR. THOMAS: We're good with that. 13 MR. : So on August 10, 2019, 14 did you ever see anyone inside of Epstein's 15 cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : Not from the hours of 18 12:00 a.m. to 6:33 a.m.? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. Yeah. From - I never 20 seen anybody going inside that cell. 21 MR. : Okay. So you didn't ever 22 witness anyone - inmates, staff members, or -. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't. 24 MR. : Okay. And were you 25 present in the SHU for your entire shift from EFTA00113766 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 12:00 a.m. to 6:33 a.m.? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. Is there like a 4 bathroom and everything in the SHU for you to 5 utilize? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes there is. Yes. 7 MR. : But you don't recall ever 8 leaving? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall going to the 10 bathroom. I don't know if I -. 11 MR. : No, not the bathroom. I 12 just mean like there was no reason for you to 13 leave that door. That someone would have had 14 to unlock or lock to let you into, the control 15 center would have to let you out. 16 MR. THOMAS: Well somebody -. Well no 17 reason somebody had to go upstairs and count 18 the other units, but - well, one of us had to 19 up there and count the other unit. But there's 20 no reason to -. There is a reason if you want 21 to go use the bathroom or get a drink of water 22 you can go over there but I don't remember if 23 left or not. I don't really recall. 24 MR. : So is your recollection 25 hat you remained in the SHU from the hours of EFTA00113767 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 12:00 a.m. to about 6:33 a.m.? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : So point being you would 4 have known if someone went in or out of 5 Epstein's cell? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And no one did? 8 MR. THOMAS: No one went in as far as I 9 know. No. 10 MR. : Are you aware of any 11 issues with the camera system in the SHU on 12 August 10, 2019? 13 MR. THOMAS: No. 14 MR. : No? Did you know if any 15 of them weren't recording? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 17 MR. : No. And you never spoke 18 with anybody about the camera system? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : Did someone live monitor 21 you all when you're in the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 23 MR. : You don't know. Do you 24 know if someone is live monitoring the range of 25 these tiers? EFTA00113768 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 2 MR. : You're not sure? 3 MR. THOMAS: I'm not sure. I don't think 4 so. 5 MR. : Does each -? Do you know 6 how like camera systems are set up? What 7 they're pointing at and what they're supposed 8 to be covering? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't - because some of the 10 tiers have cameras. I mean some of the cells 11 have cameras. I don't know. 12 MR. : When you say some have 13 cameras -- 14 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you. 15 MR. : -- would that be just 16 like 10 South and then 10 South lower are the 17 ones that have cameras? 18 MR. THOMAS: No because some of the other 19 tiers - some of the other cells have cameras 20 inside. 21 MR. : Some of the other cells 22 do have cameras in them? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. : Aside from 10 South and 25 10 South Lower? EFTA00113769 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. And what is the 3 purpose of that? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. Just when I 5 came here they had cameras. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. THOMAS: So that they -. 8 MR. : So not outside of their 9 cells. But in their cells? 10 MR. THOMAS: Inside of the cells. Yes. 11 MR. : Was there a camera inside 12 of Epstein's cell? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if his tier 14 particularly have cameras. But I know some of 15 the tiers actually do have - besides 10 South 16 Lower. G tier - if I'm not mistaken. It's 17 either G or H. But I think it's G. Yeah, G. 18 Besides G and 10 South, yes, some of the other 19 cells do have cameras in them. 20 MR. : Okay. Anything that you 21 know that would capture the Epstein cell area? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Not inside his cell. 23 No. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. THOMAS: If he doesn't have a camera EFTA00113770 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 inside his cell. 2 MR. : Okay. Okay. I'm going 3 to move on to the next section. This is about 4 sleeping. DO you recall sleeping in the SHU on 5 August 10, 2019 between the hours of 12:00 a.m. 6 and approximately 6:33 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: I recall dozing off from here 8 and there. Yes I do. 9 MR. : Do you recall how long 10 you were asleep? 11 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 12 MR. : Do you recall if Noel 13 also slept on her shift? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. No, I don't know. 15 MR. : So you don't know how 16 long she was asleep for? 17 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 18 MR. : Okay. Were you and Noel 19 seated next to each other on August 10, 2019? 20 MR. THOMAS: If you're saying seated like 21 how me and -? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. We're not seated like 24 that. It's -. 25 MR. : How far away were you? EFTA00113771 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 MR. THOMAS: Not even - maybe a foot, two 2 feet apart. I mean it's not too far but we're 3 not sitting like right adjacent and next to 4 each other. It's like how it is it's an L 5 shape. 6 MR. : Okay. But I mean you're 7 sitting with one another. 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 9 MR. : You're not like touching 10 or -. 11 MR. THOMAS: We're sitting in the same 12 area. 13 MR. : But you're sitting with - 14 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You're sitting -- 16 MR. : -- with one another. 17 Yeah-yeah-yeah. 18 MR. : -- in the same area. But 19 like one person is facing gone way and another 20 person is facing another way. 21 MR. : Okay. And you don't 22 recall seeing Noel actually sleeping? 23 MR. THOMAS: No I don't recall her 24 sleeping. 25 MR. : And you did doze off. EFTA00113772 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 You did sleep. But you don't remember about 2 how long? 3 MR. THOMAS: I do not. 4 MR. : Was it about two hours 5 sound about right? 6 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't tell you. 7 MR. : Okay. Do you know if you 8 were both asleep at the same time? 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 10 MR. : Did you discuss like hey, 11 I'm going to sleep, you stay awake? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. We did not 13 MR. : No? Okay. No 14 discussions were had. Are you authorized to 15 sleep during your shift in the SHU? 16 MR. THOMAS: No you're not. 17 MR. : Okay. Is that policy 18 that you're not allowed to sleep? Like how do 19 you know that you're not authorized to sleep. 20 MR. THOMAS: You're just not allowed to 21 sleep at work. I don't know if it's policy or 22 not. Just don't (Indiscernible *02:20:59). 23 MR. : Okay. And you knew at 24 the time, obviously. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113773 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 MR. : Okay. And just to go 2 back, you knew at the time you know you had to 3 You knew that you were falsifying those 4 records at the time of the rounds, counts, and 5 those count slips on August 9th. When you 6 the 10th I mean. When you were actually 7 certifying when you knew that you were 8 incorrectly certifying them? 9 MR. THOMAS: The count slip? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Have you ever 13 fallen asleep previously while on duty at the 14 MCC? 15 MR. THOMAS: I probably have. 16 MR. : Yeah? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 MR. : Is that kind of like 19 understood if you work that shift you kind of 20 can doze off? 21 MR. THOMAS: NO. 22 MR. : No? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : Is it a lot less active 25 during the hours of 12:00 a.m. to -? EFTA00113774 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. THOMAS: I mean of course everybody's 2 asleep at that time. All inmates are asleep at 3 that time. But it's a lot - no bodies - no 4 interaction or anything like that. So I mean 5 sometimes you get bored and you know I mean you 6 can sleep through what (Indiscernible 7 *02:21:51) you just nod a little bit. It's 8 I'm sure it's -. It's happened with me a few 9 times but I mean I do get up from time-to-time 10 and try to drink and definitely got a case of 11 Red Bull on hand from now on. 12 MR. : Okay. What about Noel? 13 Have you worked with her in the past? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. Maybe I 15 have. I don't know exactly who I've I've 16 been here 14 -. 17 MR. : So do you recall her 18 sleeping in the past? 19 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. Hm-mm. 20 MR. : What about other people 21 that you work with? You recall other people 22 would also sleep? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I can't recall if they 24 were sleeping or not. 25 MR. : You're just taking EFTA00113775 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 ownership for yourself. You know you fell 2 asleep, but -. 3 MR. THOMAS: That's it. 4 MR. : Okay. Did Noel ever try 5 to wake you up when you were sleeping? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. 7 MR. : No? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't think so. 9 MR. : Did anyone report -? 10 That you know of? Did anyone contact you and 11 try to wake you up? If people were watching 12 you on the cameras. Did anybody say hey, wake 13 up, or did Noel ever say hey, you've got to 14 wake up? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : No? Where is a CO 17 required to be during their shift in the SHU? 18 Is it just all over the area? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 20 MR. : Just walking around - 21 just within the SHU? 22 MR. THOMAS: It's just with - yeah, just 23 guess in the SHU. Yeah. Well some -- 24 MR. : On your -. 25 MR. THOMAS: -- it - you're required to be EFTA00113776 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 inside the SHU. Yes. Because some 2 MR. : Is there always two 3 people required to be in the SHU at all times? 4 Can there ever be one person left alone in the 5 SHU? 6 MR. THOMAS: I've seen when it's been one 7 person, but it's -. If I'm not mistaken, it's 8 required for us to be I think a minimum of two. 9 MR. : Okay. So if you need to 10 actually leave the SHU during that shift when 11 there's only two people there, what do you do? 12 If two people are supposed to be there, do you 13 have to call and see if someone else can come 14 replace you? Or is it -? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um.... Uh...if you're 16 talking about like for emergencies, maybe of 17 course somebody has to replace you and maybe 18 they might be - could be just short-handed and 19 you just left alone. But I know sometimes we 20 used to have to count next door. We used to go 21 count um, nine - the 9th floor. So it just 22 varies. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. THOMAS: Um. 25 MR. : So do you have like a EFTA00113777 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 certain amount of time that you're allowed to 2 leave one person alone? Like for instance 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. 4 MR. : -- if you've got to go 5 help with a count? Are you allowed to say, hey 6 I'll be right back? And you get like a 10- 7 minute window or anything like that? Or -- 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't -- 9 MR. : -- how does that work? 10 MR. THOMAS: -- know if it's um, a 11 particular number or anything like that. But 12 if you're going to go count 8, or you're going 13 to count 10 and then you're going to go count 14 9. I don't -. There's no particular time. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. People 17 walk different (Indiscernible *02:24:25) and 18 probably walk faster than say Mr. Or 19 yourself where some people might be walking 20 fast. It's -. As far as I know, there's no 21 particular -- 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. THOMAS: -- set time. 24 MR. : So you already said you 25 didn't leave the SHU on August 10th. Did you EFTA00113778 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 know if Noel left the SHU at all on August 2 10th? 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 4 remember. I don't remember. 5 MR. : You just know you were 6 there the whole time? 7 MR. THOMAS: If I didn't count 10. I 8 don't know if I counted 10 or not. I don't 9 remember if I counted 10 or not. 10 MR. : Now if you count 10 is 11 that considered leaving the SHU? Because isn't 12 that count part of the SHU? 13 MR. THOMAS: I've seen that that's a 14 different number. It's a different floor. 15 That's actually - you're not inside the SHU. 16 You're inside 10 South which is a totally 17 different place. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: But if you -. 20 MR. : But you don't have to go 21 through like control and all those door locks. 22 That's all kind of within that general SHU 23 area? 24 MR. THOMAS: Control has to pop the door. 25 MR. : Oh they do have to pop EFTA00113779 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 the door? 2 MR. THOMAS: They do have to pop the door 3 for you get inside. The same process. You take 4 the phone off the hook. You ring the officer 5 inside and control has to pop your door. And 6 then once you're out, once control pops that 7 outer door, the officer inside has to open up 8 the inner door. 9 MR. : Okay. So it is its own 10 separate unit. 11 MR. THOMAS: It's its own separate unit 12 just like any of the -. Say if I go to 13 MR. : So there's two officers 14 at 12:00 a.m. to 6:30 -. 15 MR. THOMAS: No it's one officer up there. 16 MR. : There's only one officer 17 in there? 18 MR. THOMAS: It's one officer up there. 19 So that's why somebody has to go up there and 20 count. 21 MR. : Okay. Is it always then 22 from 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 one of the people that 23 are in the SHU always have to assist 10 South? 24 MR. THOMAS: They - most of the time they 25 assist 10 South and sometimes they - more often EFTA00113780 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 than not they have to assist 9 North as well. 2 MR. : Okay. And what's 9 3 North? 4 MR. THOMAS: The unit across the hall. 5 MR. : Is that also like a 6 special housing unit type of situation? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. It's a regular housing 8 unit. 9 MR. : Okay. But you don't know 10 if that's against policy or not? 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if it's against 12 policy if you're just helping out because 13 you're short-handed. 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. THOMAS: Short-handed then. 16 MR. : Alright. Are you guys 17 authorized when you're in the SHU to be able to 18 access the computers for your own personal 19 reasons? Like are you allowed to do internet 20 searches and things like that? Limited 21 personal use? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if you are or 23 aren't authorized or not but I don't know if 24 it's unauthorized or not. 25 MR. : You're not even sure? EFTA00113781 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: I'm not. 2 MR. : They don't talk to you 3 about like what you can and can't do? 4 MR. THOMAS: Well I -. I know you're 5 locked. You can't just go shoot, search 6 Facebook or YouTube and those things are not 7 allowed on those types of computers. 8 MR. : Oh, okay. You're not 9 allowed to do like email or like Facebook or 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. You can't do any of 11 that stuff and you can't access. As far as I 12 know you can't access your own personal email. 13 You have the job email and everything like 14 that. And that's about it. 15 MR. : Are you allowed to do 16 like regular internet searches though and 17 things? 18 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : Do you recall using the 22 internet on August 10th? 23 MR. THOMAS: I wrote my name and it says 24 yeah, I recall using the internet at that time. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you remember 206 EFTA00113782 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2-- 1 what you were searching for? 2 MR. THOMAS: Um, it says motorcycle. 3 MR. : Motorcycles? Alright. 4 But do you know if that was authorized or not 5 authorized? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 7 MR. : So you're not sure. 8 Okay. Are you aware if Noel also was utilizing 9 the computer? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what she was on. 11 MR. : No. But do you know if 12 she was using the computer? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If she was I don't 14 know. Like I said, we're facing two totally 15 different directions. 16 MR. : Sure. Do you know, were 17 you seated -? What desk were you seated at? 18 Were you happened to be seated at the OIC's 19 desk? 20 MR. THOMAS: There's no - specifically 21 this is the OIC station and this is somebody 22 else here. It's not labeled that way. 23 MR. : Alright. The reason why 24 I ask, I'm told that there was a sign on the 25 OIC's desk that said Epstein is required to EFTA00113783 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 have a cellmate. So I was told that the OIC 2 had like a specific desk. Do you call seeing 3 that sign -- 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : -- on any of the 6 computers or desk areas? 7 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 8 MR. : That Epstein is required 9 to have a cellmate? 10 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 11 MR. : No. Alright. So as far 12 as visitors to the SHU. You said that there 13 was - lane came at 4:00 but you 14 don't recall any - another CO coming in at 5:30 15 a.m.? 16 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. 17 MR. : No? And the food 18 delivery. You said that's all outside of the 19 SHU? You go out and get that yourself? 20 MR. THOMAS: You go out and get that. 21 mean it happens I mean if I'm not mistaken it 22 was just me and Noel up there. At some time 23 the 6:00 count come. He's pushing it in when 24 he comes along. But I don't remember seeing 25 the 6:00 cart come in at that time. EFTA00113784 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 MR. : Alright. 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 3 remember if he was there or not. I really 4 don't remember. 5 MR. : Okay. And you said no 6 one entered Epstein's cell between 12:00 a.m. 7 and 6:00 a.m. that you know of? 8 MR. THOMAS: Not by my knowledge. 9 MR. : And did you enter 10 Epstein's cell at all between 6:00 and 11 approximately 6:30? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : And so never before the 14 initial -? 15 MR. THOMAS: The yes. The (Indiscernible 16 *02:28:54) 17 MR. : Okay. Do you know who 18 the last person was to enter Epstein's cell? 19 MR. THOMAS: I do not know. 20 MR. : Okay. Do you know what 21 would be the purpose of someone for the last 22 person to enter his cell? When you give people 23 food, do you do it through the food tray? 24 MR. THOMAS: Food slot. 25 MR. : Food slot. EFTA00113785 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 2 MR. : Food slot. So what would 3 be a purpose to actually enter a cell? 4 MR. THOMAS: During which shift? My 5 shift? The overnight? 6 MR. : Yeah just what would be 7 the -. So if you can think of a reason why 8 people would go into inmates' cells. What 9 would be the reason why someone would have -? 10 MR. THOMAS: Most of the time you don't go 11 in an inmate's cell. Unless authorized. The 12 lieutenant has to be there to go in there. 13 MR. : Into an inmate's cell? 14 MR. THOMAS: Well if you're talking about 15 during the morning watch. I can't go in there 16 until the lieutenant comes. I wouldn't just go 17 in unless the lieutenant was there. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So officers don't go into 21 inmates' cells unless lieutenants are present? 22 MR. THOMAS: No not for all - if an inmate 23 is harming himself, I'm not going to wait for a 24 lieutenant -- 25 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah- EFTA00113786 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 yeah. 2 MR. : Yeah. That's understood. 3 You know what I'm saying. But as far as just 4 going in the cell, I'm not going to go in there 5 unless the lieutenant is present. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you recall any 7 issues with any other inmates on August 10, 8 2019? During your shift? 9 MR. THOMAS: With me? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. THOMAS: No. 12 MR. : You had no - any issues? 13 Do you remember like were inmates complaining 14 about the cells being left on or anything like 15 that? 16 MR. THOMAS: Cells being left on? 17 MR. : Sorry. The lights being 18 left on. 19 MR. THOMAS: Nah, I don't remember. They 20 complain about a lot. I don't really remember. 21 MR. : Do you know of any other 22 inmates that were like, came from suicide watch 23 or were supposed to have special attention or 24 anything? 25 MR. THOMAS: Ah no. I don't remember. EFTA00113787 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 MR. : So you don't remember 2 complaints about the lights being left on? 3 Nothing? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : How do the lights work? 6 Do you - are the lights left on down the range 7 that (Indiscernible *02:30:41)? 8 MR. THOMAS: The lights are left on down 9 the range, but all inmates cover up their 10 lights anyway. But even with the light switch 11 it doesn't cut off all the lights. It's a 12 light switch. As soon as you go into the tier 13 to the left. And it shuts off the lights. But 14 some work and some because you can shut it off 15 and an inmate could still turn on his light. 16 It doesn't shut the power off to him. 17 MR. : So they have access to 18 their own interior lights? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes they do. 20 MR. : But the outside lights 21 that you have access to - do they remain on? 22 MR. THOMAS: They remain on 24/7, seven 23 days a week, 24 MR. : They do? Alright. 25 MR. THOMAS: -- 365 days. EFTA00113788 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : And is that like they 2 have to remain on type of thing? 3 MR. THOMAS: I guess so. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 6 MR. : Alright. Now we're going 7 to talk about the medical emergency. Was there 8 a medical emergency in the SHU on the morning 9 of August 10, 2019? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : Why was the medical 12 emergency called? 13 MR. THOMAS: When I went up to the cell to 14 feed the tier, when I knocked on the door, I 15 seen Mr. Epstein and I said to come to the 16 door, come to the door. And he didn't move. 17 And then I said I'm coming in. And then I went 18 in and he was hanging. 19 MR. : Okay. When was the 20 medical emergency called? 21 MR. THOMAS: I called it immediately. I 22 couldn't tell you the exact time. 23 MR. : But you called it? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I yelled to Noel to 25 get help. EFTA00113789 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. THOMAS: I yelled to Noel. 3 MR. : So you've gone to the 4 door, saw what you saw, and you yelled to - 5 immediately? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I yelled to -. Well 7 when I got to the door, I couldn't see what I 8 was seeing. When I popped it open, I seen what 9 I saw and I yelled for help. 10 MR. : So was the medical 11 emergency called before you even entered the 12 cell? Did you call Noel to call the medical? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I called for Noel to 14 call for the medical emergency. Yes. 15 MR. : Prior to entering? 16 MR. THOMAS: Right as soon as I entered. 17 Right as soon as I entered. 18 MR. : Okay. So kind of like 19 opened the door and you said call for help. 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Exactly. 21 MR. : That type of thing and 22 you ran in. 23 MR. THOMAS: Simultaneously. Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. So at what time -? 25 So if the medical emergency was called at 6:33 EFTA00113790 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 a.m., approximately what time was Epstein 2 discovered? Do you think like a minute went 3 by? Two minutes? Three minutes? Five 4 minutes? 5 MR. THOMAS: The - I can't tell you the 6 exact time, but I know whenever I popped -. 7 Because I don't know what time the food cart 8 came. The food cart came up. I don't remember 9 if we set up all the tiers first or we set it 10 up just -. That took us -. Usually how I do 11 is I set up all the tiers and then I come back 12 to the first tier and then I put it on. I don't 13 remember if I did so or not. But when I got to 14 this particular -. When I got to his cell, I 15 got there, I came with the food. I put them 16 all on the walking food cart that's there that 17 you put - that you could take. Let's say it 18 was 15 inmates up there that you take. Usually 19 in the morning there's two trays. I walked up 20 there. I had it all set up so if the food 21 cart. I don't know who was one. Certain 22 people, food cart come up early, some people 23 the food cart come up late. If the food cart 24 came up early, let's say by the time I 25 discovered - by the time I would let's say if I EFTA00113791 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 went in there at 6:00, yelled the medical 2 emergency at 6:01 and your question was -. 3 MR. : Sorry. So the medical 4 emergency was called at 6:33. 5 MR. THOMAS: 6:33. So I opened -- 6 MR. : So I'm saying -. 7 MR. THOMAS: -- the cell at - if it's 8 closer. I opened the cell at 6:32. 9 MR. : Okay. So approximately 10 probably like a minute? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. It couldn't have taken 12 her because I yelled to Noel. She yelled. It 13 couldn't have taken more than 30 seconds for 14 her to rush and yell for that emergency. 15 MR. : Alright. But you are the 16 one that discovered Epstein in his cell? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes I am. 18 MR. : Okay. And who called the 19 medical emergency? 20 MR. THOMAS: I would assume Noel did or 21 she -- 22 MR. : Well the - 23 MR. THOMAS: -- yelled it over the radio 24 or whatever. 25 MR. : And that's what I was EFTA00113792 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 going to say. How was the medical emergency 2 called? Did she call it on the radio? Did she 3 have to call on the phone? How does that work? 4 MR. THOMAS: I - if -. She could have 5 called on the radio. She could have did either 6 or. She could have called over the radio. SHU 7 need assistance. She could have the radio over 8 the phone. I don't remember 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: exactly which one that she 11 did. But it could have been either or. 12 MR. : Do you know what she 13 said? What did you tell her at the time? Did 14 you say we need assistance? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. I said. Yeah. 16 Medical emergency. Need help. Need help. 17 MR. : Need help. 18 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know my exact words. 21 I'm sure I just said to say we need help. 22 MR. : Okay. When was the last 23 time you saw Epstein prior to the discovery? 24 MR. THOMAS: Um.... Prior to the 25 discovery? That day that I sat with him. No- EFTA00113793 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 no. Probably the day prior. The day prior 2 when I fed him. 3 MR. : So the day prior. 4 MR. THOMAS: The day prior when I fed him. 5 MR. : So -. 6 MR. THOMAS: Yep. 7 MR. : On August 9th on your 8 shift sometime between I guess in the morning. 9 Around like between 6:00, 6:30? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Whatever. It's 11 between 6:00 and 6:30. 12 MR. : So approximately 24 hours 13 before? 14 MR. THOMAS: That I actually seen him or - 15 16 MR. : That you just laid eyes 17 on him. 18 MR. THOMAS: Probably when I did my count. 19 Like when you're talking about we actually fed 20 right when I did my count that night. The 21 night prior. The night when I did morning 22 watch. 23 MR. : Alright. So you wouldn't 24 have seen him when -. Did you feed him? 25 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure I did the feeding. EFTA00113794 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 MR. : But you don't actually 2 put eyes on people when you do the feeding? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. When you do the 4 feeding. So yeah, the feeding prior in that 5 time. 6 MR. : So I'm just saying when 7 you looked at him. You looked him - 8 MR. THOMAS: Oh looked at him besides -? 9 He grabbed the tray and we spoke. Yeah. 10 MR. : So probably about 24 11 hours before. 12 MR. THOMAS: Twenty-four hours prior to 13 that. Yeah. That morning watch on the 6:00 14 when I did the feeing. 15 MR. : Okay. And did -- 16 MR. THOMAS: On the 9th. 17 MR. you notice anything 18 unusual when you last saw him? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. No. 20 MR. : No? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. Just took his tray. 22 MR. : Do you know who the last 23 person was to see Epstein alive? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00113795 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 MR. THOMAS: Not there. 2 MR. : Do you remember hearing 3 anything from Epstein's cell between the times 4 of 12:00 a.m. and 6:33 a.m.? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. 6 MR. : So you never heard like 7 any kind of banging or rustling or you know 8 coughing or -? 9 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 10 MR. : Nothing? 11 MR. THOMAS: No. 12 MR. : No movement or anything 13 like that? 14 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 15 MR. : Alright. So you said 16 when you discovered him, you were outside the 17 door. You saw through the actual window. 18 Correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : And that's when you 21 noticed something was off? 22 MR. THOMAS: I noticed something off or 23 anything like that. Yes. 24 MR. : And where was Noel 25 standing? Do you remember? EFTA00113796 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. THOMAS: Um... I don't -. I can't 2 recall. 3 MR. : Was she near you? Was 4 she on the same tier? Do you know if she was 5 like somewhere else? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't She -. I really 7 can't recall. I don't know. To just be 8 specific I really don't know where she was 9 standing. If she was standing at the grill or 10 if she was standing at the base. I really 11 couldn't -. I really don't remember. 12 MR. : When you're feeding the 13 inmates, is she typically near you? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. She doesn't have to be. 15 She could like I said, it all depends on how 16 that day. Like I said, we both were tired. 17 She could have been setting up the rest of the 18 tiers. If I didn't set up the tiers. So until 19 I yelled for that help, that's the minute. And 20 when I yelled for that help, she reacted to my 21 yell. 22 MR. : Do you -? When you 23 yelled for help, do you remember ever seeing 24 her? Making sure she knew? 25 MR. THOMAS: I really can't recall. EFTA00113797 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 MR. : Yeah. You just remember 2 yelling. 3 MR. THOMAS: Because I'm in the cell. 4 Yeah I'm in the cell at that time. 5 MR. : Alright. 6 MR. THOMAS: But I know she heard me. 7 MR. : You know she heard you. 8 Do you remember like her responding or 9 anything. Like I'm on it. 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 11 MR. ., Received? Copy? 12 MR. THOMAS: I really don't 13 MR. : Anything? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 15 MR. : So you just know you 16 yelled. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 18 MR. : You don't know where she 19 was? 20 MR. THOMAS: I don't know where she was. 21 She was just at the grill or whatever. Maybe 22 she was to the grill. I don't remember exactly 23 where she was at. But I yelled and I know she 24 called for help because help came. 25 MR. : Alright. So when you did EFTA00113798 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 see Epstein This is where we're going to 2 have to get into a little more detail. 3 MR. THOMAS: Sure. 4 MR. : What did you see? 5 MR. THOMAS: He was hanging by a sheet. 6 MR. : So what was he hanging 7 from? 8 MR. THOMAS: His bed. 9 MR. : From his bed? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : Did you see the picture? 12 Actually there (Indiscernible *02:38:12). 13 Sure. 14 MR. MITCHELL: He needs a break. 15 MR. : You want to take a break 16 - a little break? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I got another 10 18 minutes here. I've got to go. 19 MR. : Alright. 20 MR. THOMAS: The hour-and-a-half is up for 21 the thing. 22 MR. : So we have 10 minutes? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 24 MR. : Alright. Ten minutes and 25 then we'll take another little break. We're EFTA00113799 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 getting close. But. So this can help us with 2 this when we were talking about the SHU. And 3 just so can we get these maps out of there. Do 4 you mind just initialing and dating this? 5 Thank you, sir. Alright. So here's some 6 pictures I want to show you. Is this - was 7 Epstein on L tier? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. See this is exactly 9 what I'm saying. Like this is down from M tier 10 but yeah he's on L tier. 11 MR. : Okay. Where was his 12 cell? 13 MR. THOMAS: It would be back here. 14 MR. : Back on this side? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 16 MR. : Alright. What am I 17 looking at here? Are you able to tell? 18 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you what tier 19 it is. But it's just a hallway and that's the 20 food cart. 21 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 22 initialing and dating that? Is this the door 23 that you walked up to when you saw? 24 MR. THOMAS: If you say it is, okay. 25 MR. : Alright. So you can't EFTA00113800 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 even actually see that because it's crossed 2 with this crime scene. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : But um, do you have any 5 reason to believe that that wouldn't be the 6 door that you went into -- 7 MR. THOMAS: no. 8 MR. : -- where Epstein was 9 discovered? 10 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. I have no reason to 11 believe it. 12 MR. : Okay. When you walked 13 in, does this look like it was the same type of 14 cell? Because all I'm going to ask is where he 15 was hanging. 16 MR. THOMAS: He was hanging over here to 17 this side. 18 MR. : Okay. So is this a 19 picture where -? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yeah because if you put them 21 together, like the bunk it's over to this side. 22 MR. : Alright. So was he 23 hanging from something in here? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Hanging from - it was 25 tied up right here and then I ripped it down EFTA00113801 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 and I put him to the ground. 2 MR. : So was this what he was 3 tied to? 4 MR. THOMAS: It was more - it wasn't just 5 that little thing. It was more stringed then 6 that that I ripped down. 7 MR. : Alright. 8 MR. THOMAS: Maybe it's down there or 9 something like that. Like I see some string and 10 stuff right here. 11 MR. : Do you just mind like 12 marking where it was that - where the noose or 13 whatever - the rope was tied? Just for 14 clarity? What it was attached to? 15 MR. THOMAS: It was attached to the bunk. 16 It's attached to the bunk. 17 MR. : Is this it here though? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah, it's attached to 19 the bunk to this general area eight here. 20 MR. : So just circle that 21 general area. 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 23 MR. : Alright. You mind just 24 initialing and dating that? Alright. 25 MR. THOMAS: Am I doing the same with this EFTA00113802 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 one? 2 MR. : No-no-no. We'll -. Well 3 you can if you want sure. I mean you looked at 4 it. And do you believe -? So did you take 5 down this and somebody put it back up? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. I -. It was attached to 7 them and it wasn't just that singular piece. 8 It might have more rope to it. 9 MR. : Alright. There was more 10 rope to it? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 12 MR. : But this is what was 13 hanging? He was hanging - 14 /t It was something (Indiscernible 15 *02:41:36) I don't know if that's a sheet or 16 shirt or whatever the case may be. But yeah. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: He was hanging from over 19 there. 20 MR. : From this area? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : Alright. You mind just 23 initialing and dating that? Alright. So when 24 you went in, you found him, he was still 25 hanging. EFTA00113803 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 2 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. MR. : And what did you do? MR. THOMAS: I ripped him down and I 4 yelled for help and I started for CPR. 5 MR. : So how did you rip him 6 down? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah I just ripped the sheet 8 down. 9 MR. : So you ripped the sheet 10 first? 11 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And then did you like 13 pick him up or did you just throw him on the 14 floor -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. 16 MR. : -- or did he fall in the 17 floor? 18 MR. THOMAS: Kind of just like got him to 19 the floor. I ripped it off like that and then 20 he dropped of course. And then I laid him onto 21 the ground. 22 MR. : Okay. So he dropped - 23 fall? After you -? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well it's wasn't As you 25 could see, it's not that -. If you can see by EFTA00113804 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 the thing like that. (Indiscernible 2 *02:42:30). Where's the picture? 3 MR. : Right here. In the, can 4 I have the picture back? 5 MR. THOMAS: Oh. The ground it right 6 here. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: Like if you take he's maybe 9 like plopped to the- he was maybe about an 10 inch-and-a-half or maybe an inch off the 11 ground. 12 MR. : So. 13 MR. THOMAS: Like he was lower than the -. 14 MR. : So after you ripped this 15 thing, did he just fall first? 16 MR. THOMAS: Just dropped down. Yeah. 17 MR. : He dropped down? 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : And then you moved him? 20 So alright. 21 MR. THOMAS: I did not move him to 22 (Indiscernible *02:42:52) 23 MR. : So you rip the sheet. He 24 falls to the floor. 25 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. EFTA00113805 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. : And then you moved him 2 where you could start CPR? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. So I could lay him 4 down and start CPR. 5 MR. : Alright. Do you remember 6 if his like if anything of his body hit 7 anywhere? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 9 MR. : When he fell? 10 MR. THOMAS: No I don't remember his body 11 hitting anywhere. 12 MR. : We just - the reason why 13 we're asking is like with the autopsy -- 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 15 MR. : -- we've got to make sure 16 of that. 17 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah-yeah. The - it's 18 just like a drop down. 19 MR. : Alright. So he dropped -- 20 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- basically do you 22 remember if he landed on his butt? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. On his butt. Yeah. 24 He landed on his butt here. 25 MR. : He landed on his butt? EFTA00113806 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : But his head remained 3 upright? 4 MR. THOMAS: Nah, I'm sure he 5 MR. : I don't mean upright like 6 looking at you but I mean like he was -. His 7 body remained upright. 8 MR. THOMAS: I would guess he was just 9 limped over. I would say just limped over. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. THOMAS: And I just -. 12 MR. : And then you physical 13 moved him you know to -- 14 MR. THOMAS: To the floor. 15 MR. : -- the floor. 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 17 MR. : Alright. Do you remember 18 if his - like anything hit harder than another 19 when you moved him -- 20 MR. THOMAS: I really don't -- 21 MR. to the floor? 22 MR. THOMAS: remember other than. 23 MR. : Yeah. No worries. 24 Alright. So he was still hanging. That was 25 the position you found him on, you ripped it EFTA00113807 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 off. He fell to the floor. You then moved him 2 to the ground. What was he wearing at the 3 time? Do you remember? 4 MR. THOMAS: Pants. 5 MR. : Was he naked or anything 6 like that? Or he still had his clothes on? 7 MR. THOMAS: He wasn't naked. He wasn't 8 naked. He still had a -. I'm going to say he 9 I want to say he had a jumper on. He had 10 his jumper how they have - it's not all the way 11 up to the top right there, but it's like around 12 the waist. So maybe he had pants on. I do 13 remember he wasn't totally naked. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. THOMAS: And he wasn't in his boxer 16 shorts or anything like that. But he was just 17 and he had a - he had no shirt on. He didn't 18 have a shirt on. 19 MR. : He didn't have a shirt 20 on. Alright. Was there -? You said this was 21 still around his neck. When he fell off did 22 that come away from his neck? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. He didn't have 24 anything around his neck when he came up. 25 Yeah. EFTA00113808 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 MR. : Okay. And what was it 2 that was around his neck? 3 MR. THOMAS: It was either a sheet or a 4 shirt. I don't know which one it is. A sheet 5 or shirt. I didn't really pay attention to it. 6 MR. : Now are the sheets and 7 the shirts both orange? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. So it wasn't - you 10 weren't able to tell if it was -. 11 MR. THOMAS: I couldn't tell you if it was 12 a sheet or a shirt. No I didn't. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: I didn't look to see what it 15 was. Now what did he look like? 16 MR. THOMAS: Um.... A white male...? i 17 don't know.... 18 MR. : Was he like completely 19 purple? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, he was - no-no-no-no. 21 Absolutely not. He wasn't completely -. He 22 was just - he just looked like he'd been 23 hanging like he just hung himself. It wasn't 24 like he was red or blue or his lips were like a 25 different color. It wasn't any of that stuff. EFTA00113809 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 He was just 2 MR. : It looked like it 3 happened just recently or like you know -? 4 MR. THOMAS: I mean I'm not a doctor, I 5 couldn't 6 MR. : Sure-sure-sure. 7 MR. THOMAS: -- tell you if a doctor -. I 8 just He didn't look um. I don't say he 9 didn't look different. I mean he just 10 MR. : So he -. 11 MR. THOMAS: -- like he just hung himself. 12 It wasn't no discoloration of anything like 13 that if that's what you're trying to get. And 14 it like - like he just hung himself. 15 MR. : Alright. So you don't - 16 he didn't' look at that much different than 17 when he looked when he was alive? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Didn't look. 19 MR. : He looked pretty much the 20 same? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Just the - not -. 22 MR. : Okay. And you said or 23 did you notice anything unusual in his cell 24 when you went in? 25 MR. THOMAS: No. No I didn't. EFTA00113810 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : No? And you said that 2 you started CPR. 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yes. 4 MR. : And what did you do -? 5 MR. THOMAS: I started doing chest 6 compressions. 7 MR. : Just chest compressions? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Just chest 9 compressions. 10 MR. : Any kind of like mouth- 11 to-mouth type of - 12 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't do any mouth- 13 to-mouth. I was doing chest compressions. It 14 took maybe about -. It wasn't that long before 15 they came with the thing and they started doing 16 all the other stuff. I can't remember the 17 medic name. The guy. I can't remember his 18 name. 19 MR. : Alright. So did he stay 20 all kind - was it all kind of right there next 21 to the bed? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, it was right there 23 until - 24 MR. : Did you have to move him 25 out at all? EFTA00113811 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 MR. THOMAS: No because they did - they 2 was doing the AED and everything right there 3 inside the cell. 4 MR. : So right in the corner of 5 that bunk? 6 MR. THOMAS: It's not in the corner it can 7 stretch out like you know -. It's like right - 8 9 MR. : No-no-no, I'm saying for 10 you - when you're doing your chest 11 compressions. 12 MR. THOMAS: No when I'm doing my chest 13 compressions, he's laying out like right here. 14 A few feet. Maybe all right here but he's 15 laying about right here. 16 MR. : So after -. 17 MR. THOMAS: Like about this way. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. THOMAS: Without the wall of course. 20 MR. : But so he was on the 21 floor -- 22 MR. THOMAS: He was on the floor. 23 MR. : -- while you were doing 24 the -. 25 MR. THOMAS: Yes. EFTA00113812 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : And you didn't really 2 have to move him so much -? 3 MR. THOMAS: No I did not. 4 MR. : After you like moved him 5 from the hanging position to the ground, to the 6 floor -- 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. : Chest compressions 9 immediately. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 11 MR. : Alright. Did you do 12 anything else? 13 MR. THOMAS: Uh. 14 MR. : Other than the chest 15 compressions? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. Soon thereafter there 17 was a whole bunch of staff there. 18 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. About 19 how long were you doing chest compressions for? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um.... I don't - maybe a 21 minute or so. I don't - I can't really recall. 22 MR. : You don't remember. 23 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like the blink of 24 an eye before everybody was around me. 25 MR. : Did he seem like he was EFTA00113813 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 dead at that time? 2 MR. THOMAS: No he didn't. 3 MR. : He actually seemed like 4 he was alive? 5 MR. THOMAS: Well he didn't -. I don't 6 really want to say dead or alive. But he was - 7 I was doing chest compressions. I mean I'm not 8 a doctor so anything like that but I just know 9 I just kept going. I don't know if he was dead 10 or anything at that time. 11 MR. : Did you notice if he had 12 like did you check for a pulse or anything like 13 that? 14 MR. THOMAS: The doctor was there. I know 15 when I was doing chest compressions I didn't 16 stop to check for a pulse. The - I let the 17 medical staff do that because it was somebody 18 from medical doing that. 19 MR. : So how did you know to do 20 chest compressions if you didn't 21 MR. THOMAS: I mean, I don't know if 22 somebody look like they not breathing or 23 anything like that, he's not talking, I'm 24 yelling out his name, he's not -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00113814 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 MR. THOMAS: responding. So. 2 MR. : Did you check for breath? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I did check for breath. 4 Yeah. 5 MR. : So prior to doing chest 6 compressions you checked for breath? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes I checked for breath. 8 Yeah. 9 MR. : And how did you do that? 10 MR. THOMAS: I just when I would go like 11 this I was telling Epstein, like "Yo, Epstein 12 Epstein!" He wasn't breathing. So that's my 13 interpretation of checking. I'm yelling. He's 14 not breathing, he's not calling to me, he's not 15 saying anything. 16 MR. : So I guess what I'm 17 asking is so when -. 18 MR. THOMAS: Did I put my hand over here 19 and check for breath? 20 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 21 MR. THOMAS: No. I did not. 22 MR. : So you didn't like 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I was yelling for his 24 name and everything to see if he was like doing 25 any like that in there. I'm like, "Epstein - EFTA00113815 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 Epstein!" And I'm pushing on his upper torso. 2 MR. : Alright. SO you didn't 3 feel for a pulse or check for breath. 4 MR. THOMAS: No. I didn't do all that 5 stuff. No. 6 MR. : Alright. But you 7 believed he wasn't breathing? 8 MR. THOMAS: I don't believe - I don't 9 know if he was breathing or not. I know he was 10 just hanging, so I was just trying to get him 11 to start. 12 MR. : So you saw him hanging 13 and just your natural reaction then was to -? 14 MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. 15 MR. : So you don't actually 16 know if he was breathing or -? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : You don't know if he was 19 breathing. So you don't know if he was alive 20 or not? 21 MR. THOMAS: I don't know if he was alive 22 or not. No. 23 MR. : Okay. So just -. 24 Alright. So you didn't actually check for 25 anything. You just went right to chest EFTA00113816 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 compressions. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes yeah went to chest 3 compressions and yelling. And I wasn't getting 4 no response. 5 MR. : Okay. Did you like hit 6 him or anything first? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. No. Nah. 8 MR. : Like trying to wake him 9 up? 10 MR. THOMAS: I just kept yelling his name. 11 and I'm shaking him and doing chest 12 compressions, that should be enough to wake 13 somebody up for somebody to - "hey, hey" like 14 that and I didn't =. 15 MR. : Did they teach you CPR 16 though? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. That's part of the ART. 18 MR. : Did they teach you that 19 prior to doing CPR you're supposed to like 20 check to see if they're alive first? 21 MR. THOMAS: Prior to CPR the standard 22 model is check for airways and everything like 23 that. But in the course of the moment, I 24 didn't slow down and say let me see I check for 25 responsiveness. And that's exactly what I did. EFTA00113817 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 When I'm yelling your name, that's checking for 2 a response. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. THOMAS: I wasn't getting any 5 response. 6 MR. : Okay. No, the only 7 reason I'm going more into details is because 8 you said you weren't sure if he was alive or 9 not. 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Um, um. Alright. 12 MR. THOMAS: I understand. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. No. I'm 14 just trying to figure out if there's more 15 questions I need to ask with regard to that -- 16 MR. THOMAS: No problem. 17 MR. : -- specifics. Um. At 18 any time when you were doing chest compressions 19 or any of that, did he ever open his eyes or 20 seem to take a breath or -? 21 MR. THOMAS: Not that I recall. I don't 22 remember really. 23 MR. : Okay. Um. Alright. Did 24 Noel ever enter the cell to assist you? 25 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't remember. I EFTA00113818 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 remember seeing her. I don't know if she was 2 in the cell. There were so many people in that 3 cell in such a short period of time, so I 4 really don't remember if she was one of the 5 people or not. I can only remember actually 6 two faces at this present time. One is the 7 medical person I can't remember his name and 8 the other one is uh, um, 9 MR. 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : How do you spell 12 MR. THOMAS: 13 MR. -: ? Okay. Who is 14 15 MR. THOMAS: Officer. 16 MR. : Just an officer that came 17 in response? 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : And I'm sorry, you may 20 have said this but I don't recall. When you 21 after you did chest compressions, you said you 22 did it for like a minute before they responded. 23 MR. THOMAS: Um, yeah. Maybe about a 24 minute. Nothing more than a minute. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113819 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like - 2 MR. : So immediately almost? 3 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like a flash. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: It seemed like a flash that 6 everybody was there inside the room. 7 MR. : Okay. And when they came 8 in what did they do? 9 MR. THOMAS: Uh once the medical staff - 10 uh I can't remember his name. Once he came and 11 was doing chest compressions, I know I got a 12 little exhausted and tired and everything like 13 that. He was doing chest compressions. He put 14 the AED on and um, that's about all I can 15 remember that that guy put the AED on and 16 know he told me to stand back. 17 MR. : Alright. And did you - 18 did he check for breath or a pulse or -? 19 MR. THOMAS: I really can't remember 20 exactly -- 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. THOMAS: -- his and what he did 23 exactly. 24 MR. : Do you know when they put 25 the AED on? Did it ever advise for shock or EFTA00113820 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 anything like that? 2 MR. THOMAS: Uh, I don't remember. 3 MR. : You don't recall? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 5 MR. : So when they came in, did 6 you stay in the room or at that point -? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I stayed in the room. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I actually helped to carry 10 him downstairs. 11 MR. : Alright. And was the 12 medical personnel =? 13 MR. THOMAS: He was with us the whole 14 time. 15 MR. : And what was his name? 16 MR. THOMAS: I really can't -. 17 MR. : No? 18 MR. THOMAS: Um. 19 MR. : But he's the one who took 20 over chest compressions? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah he took over chest 22 compressions. He was in the room the while 23 time. 24 MR. : Alright. And you said 25 you were trained on CPR though? EFTA00113821 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. Do you know when 3 the last time you were trained on CPR? 4 MR. THOMAS: Had to be ART. 5 MR. : ART? Are you always 6 every year trained on CPR? 7 MR. THOMAS: Every year at ART there's 8 trainings. 9 MR. : Okay. So like April of 10 2019 would have been the last time? 11 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 12 MR. : Um. Alright. So after 13 medical emergency called, what -? Walk me 14 through that a little bit in detail. What 15 happened? So he came. The medical person 16 comes in. He starts going chest compressions. 17 About how long is he doing them? 18 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know 19 how long he was doing them before he put the 20 AED on. I couldn't tell you how long he was on 21 before he actually put the AED. Because the 22 AED - right on the -. Right - you see the one 23 right there. In SHU. I know there's one right 24 there on the 9th floor. So I don't know how 25 long ago that he was doing chest compressions EFTA00113822 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 before he actually put the AED on. I couldn't 2 tell you a specific time like 30 second. I 3 don't know. 4 MR. : And at that time did you 5 believe that he was alive or dead? 6 MR. THOMAS: I was just I had so many 7 things going through my mind. I was just 8 hoping everything worked out. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. THOMAS: I'm -. 11 MR. : So what was going through 12 your mind at the time? 13 MR. THOMAS: A whole lot. What's going 14 on. There's a man in front of me, you know 15 what I mean. That's it. Just that it's a man 16 in front of me - hanging. I just seen him 17 hanging. 18 MR. : yeah-yeah-yeah. Had you 19 ever had to respond to something like that 20 before? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 22 MR. : So you've actually had to 23 take people off from hanging and things? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. I've responded to like 25 I've maybe seen one other hanging, but they cut EFTA00113823 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 him down and like that but he was actually 2 gotten alive when they were (Indiscernible 3 *02:53:33). But yeah, I've seen a few. 4 MR. : Okay. And you have to do 5 the same type of a thing? 6 MR. THOMAS: Well nothing to for where 7 they had to put the AED on a person. Just some 8 chest compressions and they were revived and -. 9 MR. : Anybody else die from it? 10 MR. THOMAS: Not that I would recall. No. 11 MR. : No. Alright. But now 12 you did say you ripped it down. You didn't cut 13 it down. 14 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. I just tipped it down. 15 MR. : In the past they've 16 actually cut it down is what you just said? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : Oh. I thought you just 19 said that people were hanging and they cut it 20 down. 21 MR. THOMAS: Maybe if they cut it or if 22 they ripped it down. I don't know. Whatever 23 they had at their disposal at that time. 24 MR. : Okay. Though did you 25 ever have to -? EFTA00113824 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. THOMAS: Cut somebody down? No. 2 MR. : Cut somebody -? No? 3 MR. THOMAS: This was my first one. 4 MR. : That was your first time 5 ever being the first responder? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. And do they train 8 you on that? On if you come in and find 9 someone hanging what you're supposed to do? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember specific 11 training on like that but I know -. If I'm not 12 mistaken, it's life, limb, or something for the 13 bureau or something. I know I'm not supposed 14 to just let somebody sit there and hang. 15 MR. : Yeah-yep. No, I'm just 16 saying like do they teach you how to like 17 respond to these things? 18 MR. THOMAS: I - mm. Maybe it's something 19 in ART training. I don't know. 20 MR. : Okay. So you know CPR 21 was done in ART but you're not sure if it was 22 in response to what -? 23 MR. THOMAS: It's in a particular response 24 to if you see somebody hanging you do this. 25 No. EFTA00113825 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 MR. : Right. Okay. But is 2 that something that occurs a lot? People 3 inmates hanging themselves at the MCC? 4 MR. THOMAS: Not a lot but you know 5 sometimes people have you don't know what 6 someone else's stressor is or what -- 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. THOMAS: -- they're going through at 9 home. Or what they're in for. 10 MR. : Yeah. I guess what I'm 11 asking is like does this happen like once a 12 week, once a month, or once a year? 13 MR. THOMAS: I've been there for 14 years. 14 He's been there a lot longer than me. Um. 15 I've seen maybe about 7 hangings. 16 MR. : Seven hangings in that? 17 Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : So if you were to 20 estimate about one every two years? 21 MR. THOMAS: If you want to break it down 22 to that. 23 MR. : Okay. What did you do 24 after the medical emergency was called? 25 MR. THOMAS: After I got him down to the - EFTA00113826 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 2 MR. : No, I'm sorry. After 3 they responded, what did you do? 4 MR. THOMAS: After they responded, I 5 helped carry him downstairs. 6 MR. : You did help them? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I helped them on the 8 stretcher carry him downstairs. 9 MR. : Now downstairs -. 10 MR. THOMAS: To the second floor. 11 MR. : To the -. 12 MR. THOMAS: To the medical floor. It's 13 the second floor. 14 MR. : So you went all the way 15 from the SHU all the way to the second floor? 16 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. And you were with 18 them the whole time? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. I was with them the 20 whole time. And the medical staff was with me. 21 And it was a bunch of other people in the 22 elevator at that time. 23 MR. : And what were you doing 24 during that time? 25 MR. THOMAS: I was holding the stretcher. EFTA00113827 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 1 MR. : Because you were one of 2 the people -? 3 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Yeah. 4 MR. : So was it just you and 5 someone else? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Me and three other 7 people holding the stretcher. I don't 8 (Indiscernible *02:56:01) who else was there 9 holding the, staff, help bringing him down. 10 MR. : So it was an actual 11 stretcher that you had to carry, not something 12 that was like moving him? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. It's not a 14 stretcher. They have stretchers on the wall 15 and near like that that you have to carry. You 16 get him to the thing and then you just go. 17 MR. : Did they continue life- 18 saving efforts? 19 MR. THOMAS: The whole time. 20 MR. : So while he was being 21 moved in the stretcher, people were like doing 22 compressions? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Was there anything like 25 on his face trying to give him air or anything EFTA00113828 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like that? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. I don't 3 really remember. 4 MR. : Okay. Do you have 5 pictures of that stuff? Yeah. We actually 6 have a ton of pictures. For each 7 (Indiscernible *02:56:48). Do you remember - 8 recall was this like in the -? 9 MR. THOMAS: This is in medical. 10 MR. : That's in medical? 11 MR. THOMAS: It looks like. I don't know 12 if that's - 9th floor. Is that for -? No that 13 says right here. That's EMS. 14 MR. : That's EMS. Alright. So 15 this isn't anything that's in the cell or 16 anything like what we're talking about? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. That's not. No-no-no, 18 that's not. 19 MR. : This is all after the 20 medical? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. That's all medical. 22 MR. : Do you know if any 23 pictures were taken while you were doing this 24 medical emergency? 25 MR. THOMAS: I doubt it. I'm sure nobody EFTA00113829 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 1 stopped to grab a camera. 2 MR. : Yeah. No. Just because 3 we have all these. 4 MR. THOMAS: And again, I'm not still. I 5 didn't mean nothing by (Indiscernible 6 *02:57:29). 7 MR. : So none of these pictures 8 have anything to do with you? I mean they're 9 not. 10 MR. THOMAS: No. No. I wasn't. 11 MR. : Were you even in the room 12 during that? 13 MR. THOMAS: I wasn't in the room for none 14 of that. 15 MR. : Okay. It doesn't look 16 like we have any pictures of that stuff. But - 17 . So from the SHU all the way down to the 18 second floor, you stay with him. You were 19 carrying the stretcher, and someone was doing 20 compressions. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : And trying to revive him. 23 MR. THOMAS: So you said that 24 responded and a medical personnel. 25 MR. THOMAS: I remember seeing and EFTA00113830 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 medical persons. It was - I'm sure the 2 lieutenant was there. That's just -. 3 MR. : Do you remember who the 4 lieutenant was? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I can't remember who was 6 there. 7 MR. : Does Lieutenant 8 sound familiar? Does that make or help 9 you recall? 10 MR. THOMAS: MR. THOMAS: I mean maybe 11 maybe was there. I don't -. 12 MR. : So we can go back to that 13 duty agent roster. 14 MR. THOMAS: It shows that he came on in 15 the morning. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. THOMAS: But you know that two hour 18 prior but he probably was there. 19 MR. : So you think it was 20 probably him? And do you remember making any 21 statements after the medical emergency ride? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember what I said. 23 I could have been saying a whole lot. I mean 24 like I said, I just seen a man hanging. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00113831 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 MR. THOMAS: You know, I don't remember 2 exactly verbatim what I said or anything. 3 MR. : Do you recall Noel saying 4 we didn't do our rounds at 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 5 a.m.? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall her saying 7 that. 8 MR. : Alright. 9 MR. THOMAS: I was (Indiscernible 10 *02:58:49) . I don't remember seeing Noel after 11 this actually. After I carried him downstairs, 12 I don't even remember seeing Noel. 13 MR. : Do you recall saying to 14 Noel that we didn't do the rounds. We messed - 15 . Or - hold on. Did you say that it was not 16 Noel's fault and say we didn't do the rounds? 17 We messed up. 18 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember saying that. 19 I could have said it. I don't remember saying 20 it. 21 MR. : So you don't remember 22 saying it's not her fault. 23 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't remember saying 24 anything. I could have said -. Like I said I 25 don't know what I said exactly from that time. EFTA00113832 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 It was three years ago. But -. 2 MR. : Alright. So my only 3 question was so that's the statement we have is 4 that you stated she said we didn't do the 5 rounds. And you said we didn't do the rounds. 6 We messed up. It's not Noel's fault. And I 7 was just wondering why you would say that it 8 wasn't her fault. 9 MR. THOMAS: I don't. 10 MR. : Do you remember like -? 11 MR. THOMAS: I really don't. I really 12 don't. 13 MR. : Yeah. You were just 14 uttering things. 15 MR. THOMAS: Just uttering things like I 16 said. I don't remember saying that. I don't 17 remember not saying it. I don't remember when 18 that was said or who said that I said that. 19 Like I said I don't remember saying that. 20 MR. : Okay. So it wasn't like 21 -. The only reason that I asked is that, it 22 sounds like you were taking responsibility for 23 the rounds and counts. And I was just wanting 24 to know if there was a reason why you would 25 have been taking responsibility. Like we said, EFTA00113833 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 you're both responsible. I don't know why you 2 would -- 3 MR. THOMAS: (Indiscernible *03:00:03) 4 MR. : -- take responsibility 5 over her in saying it's not her fault? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't know why I said 7 anything like that if I said it. 8 MR. : You don't know. 9 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I don't remember 10 saying it. 11 MR. : Okay. Um. 12 MR. THOMAS: There was a lot going on. I 13 really -. 14 MR. : Alright. So what is your 15 understanding of how Epstein died? 16 MR. THOMAS: Um, it's been two years. He 17 died from a hanging. 18 MR. : So do you believe he died 19 from hanging? Do you believe he died from 20 someone trying to murder - or someone hurting 21 him? Do you believe that he died from the 22 medical response? 23 MR. THOMAS: I'm not a medical 24 professional. I don't know. I've seen so many 25 things and I'm faced with so many things. They EFTA00113834 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 just said that he died from a hanging. 2 MR. : And being the first 3 responder to the person in there. Do you 4 believe that is how he died now? Because you 5 said, again, previously when I was asking you 6 said I don't know if he was alive or dead. Do 7 you believe he did die from hanging? 8 MR. THOMAS: I never believe he died. I 9 don't believe the conspiracy that somebody 10 snuck into the jail catapulted -. 11 MR. MITCHELL: Just answer the questions - 12 13 MR. THOMAS: Oh. 14 MR. MITCHELL: -- yes or no. 15 MR. THOMAS: Oh. No. I mean yes, I 16 believe he died from hanging. 17 MR. : You do believe he died 18 hanging. Alright. And do you believe that 19 Epstein took his own life? 20 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 21 MR. : Did anyone else take 22 Epstein's life? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : No? Did anyone assist 25 Epstein in taking his life? EFTA00113835 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 MR. THOMAS: Ah, no. 2 MR. : Um, did Noel take 3 Epstein's life? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : These are questions that 6 we just have to ask because you guys are the 7 first to be there and you guys were the ones on 8 duty. 9 MR. THOMAS: I'm here with you. 10 MR. : Did Noel assist Epstein 11 with taking his life? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Did you assist Epstein 14 with taking his life? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : Did you take Epstein's 17 life? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. 19 MR. : Did you have any part in 20 Epstein's death? 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : Prior to Epstein dying, 23 did you have any communication - verbal, 24 electronic, handwritten, or otherwise with 25 anyone - BOP staff members or otherwise -. So EFTA00113836 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 civilians, inmates, anybody - about the safety 2 and wellbeing of Epstein? 3 MR. THOMAS: No. 4 MR. : Prior to Epstein dying, 5 did you have any communications - verbal, 6 electronic, handwritten, or otherwise - with 7 anyone - - BOP staff members or otherwise -. 8 So civilians, inmates, anybody - about the 9 death of Epstein or taking Epstein's life? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : Did anyone ever offer you 12 anything, such as something of value or favors, 13 with regard to harming Epstein or taking his 14 life? 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : Did anyone ever threaten 17 you in exchange for harming Epstein or taking 18 Epstein's life? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. 20 MR. : Were any of your family 21 members? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. Absolutely not. 23 MR. : So now we're getting more 24 back into the administrative stuff. Why wasn't 25 Epstein in his assigned cell on August 10, EFTA00113837 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 2019? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 3 MR. : Are cell rotations - do 4 they occur with inmates in the SHU? That you 5 have to move them ever certain amount of days? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Alright. Who is 8 responsible? 9 MR. THOMAS: That's the SHU lieutenants. 10 MR. : That falls on the SHU 11 lieutenant? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah from the SHU lieutenant. 13 Well it falls on the SHU lieutenant to pass 14 down to the staff members when they're going to 15 do cell rotations or anything like that. 16 MR. : Alright. 17 MR. THOMAS: It's something that's 18 tracked. If I'm not mistaken, it might be 19 tracked computerly. I don't know. 20 MR. : That so -. In the 21 computer, who is responsible for making that 22 change in the computer? 23 MR. THOMAS: Oh I don't know. 24 MR. : Did you know Epstein was 25 not in his assigned cell? EFTA00113838 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : So this is the first 3 you're hearing that? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 5 MR. : Alright. Is that 6 something that you guys are supposed to monitor 7 or do when you're in the SHU during your 8 assignment? Are you supposed to make sure that 9 inmates are in their assigned cells? 10 MR. THOMAS: When I come on at 12:00, 11 that's all taken care of from - you don't move 12 anybody at 12:00 at midnight. 13 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah. I just 14 didn't know if that's something that you guys 15 are supposed to like pay attention to. Like 16 alright, this guys is supposed to be in this 17 cell. This guy's supposed to be in that cell. 18 MR. THOMAS: It's 70-something inmates or 19 something. If 15 inmates come down on short 20 staff and they got to move, maybe all 15 won't 21 get done, so maybe somebody is in a 21-day 22 rotation, they're probably laid over for like 23 five or whatever couple days. But I don't know 24 as far as you're going by cell rotation and oh 25 his cell rotations is up 21 days and he wasn't EFTA00113839 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 moved there and he was in the wrong cell. 2 don't know that. I don't know. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I'm not custody. 5 I wouldn't deal with all that. 6 MR. : Okay. So who - I'm 7 assuming it's the officers who actually move 8 them physically to different cells? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : Who goes into the system 11 and changes it in that BOP database? Would 12 that also be the officers? 13 MR. THOMAS: Officers or the operations 14 or the SHU lieutenant. 15 MR. : Okay. But that is 16 nothing that's done at that 12:00 a.m. to - 17 MR. THOMAS: That is nothing that's done 18 at 12:00 a.m. No it's not. 19 MR. : Alright. Do you know why 20 pill bottles were found within Epstein's cell? 21 MR. THOMAS: No I do not. 22 MR. : It's - are they - inmates 23 allowed to have medication within their cells? 24 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure some are allowed. 25 Yes. EFTA00113840 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 MR. : They are allowed? 2 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure that some are 3 allowed medications. I don't know what 4 medications they need or anything like that. 5 MR. : Do you recall ever seeing 6 - here's a picture I'm showing you with 7 medication that was in Epstein's cell. Do you 8 recall seeing this? 9 MR. THOMAS: No. 10 MR. : Does that look like 11 something that he would be authorized to have 12 with that much medication? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what they are. 14 I don't know what they're authorized and what 15 they're not authorized. 16 MR. : Okay. Just because 17 showed it to you, can you do you mind just 18 initialing and dating it? 19 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. I keep closing 20 this. 21 MR. : Nah, no worries. And so 22 you don't know anything about like policies are 23 related to what they're authorized or not 24 authorized -? 25 MR. THOMAS: As far as that? No. EFTA00113841 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 MR. : Would that be up to like 2 medical? 3 MR. THOMAS: Medical. Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. Are you familiar 5 just in general, non-medical related, what 6 inmates are authorized and not authorized -? 7 MR. THOMAS: No I'm not. 8 MR. : You're not even familiar 9 with -- 10 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 11 MR. : -- what they can and 12 can't have in their cells? 13 MR. THOMAS: No I'm not. No. 14 MR. : Do you know if the SHU is 15 any different than the rest of the institution 16 of what inmates can and cannot have in their 17 cell? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Absolutely. I'm sure 19 it's if (Indiscernible *03:06:02) different I 20 don't know though because I'm sure it's 21 different because that's the 23 on 1 so I'm 22 sure it's different from a regular housing unit 23 on there to walk around. 24 MR. : What's 23 on 1 now? 25 MR. THOMAS: They're locked down 23 hours EFTA00113842 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 a day == 2 MR. : oh. 3 MR. THOMAS: and then 1 hour is rec. 4 MR. : Um but as far as what 5 they're allowed to have in their cells. 6 MR. THOMAS: No I don't know the book 7 version of what they're allowed and what 8 they're not allowed. 9 MR. : So do you know of other 10 inmates are allowed to have medications in 11 their cell at this time? 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 13 MR. : You don't know. How many 14 changes of clothing and linens are allowed in 15 inmates' cells within the SHU? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know. 18 MR. THOMAS: That's something that would 19 be done prior to my shift. 20 MR. : Sure. So does this look 21 like an exorbitant amount of closing and linens 22 that are in Mr. Epstein's cell in these 23 pictures? 24 MR. THOMAS: It looks like a lot um, but 25 that could have just been -. I don't know what EFTA00113843 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 that's from the previous inmate that's left 2 over that they didn't take his stuff. like 3 again, I don't know. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. THOMAS: The inmate that left, they 6 didn't take his linen or not. And you can't 7 tell from these pictures which is ripped up and 8 what is not ripped up is. Most inmates will 9 get a bed sheet, rip it up, and put it up as 10 all types of stuff that goes on. But I don't 11 know if that's something doing or not. It has 12 to be broken down to alright, this is seven 13 sheets. And if I have seven sheets or 14 something like that then yes that's excessive. 15 But other than that, I don't know what they're 16 supposed to have within - what they're not 17 supposed to have, one sheet, one -. I really 18 don't know. 19 MR. : Is it supposed to be a 20 one-for-one exchange? 21 MR. THOMAS: Yes. It's a one-for-one 22 exchange. 23 MR. : So they're only 24 technically supposed to have one -. 25 MR. THOMAS: It's two sheets one blanket I EFTA00113844 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 think it is. Or one blanket, one sheet, and 2 one towel and one washcloth. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. THOMAS: And I can't remember the full 5 thing. 6 MR. : And do you -? 7 MR. THOMAS: That's not something that 8 happens on morning watch. That's something 9 that happens prior to the morning watch when I 10 stayed there from 12:00 to 1:00. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. THOMAS: That's not something I have. 13 12:00 to 1:00 you don't take the inmates out. 14 MR. : Sure. So - 15 MR. : And I don't know and you 16 don't give them anything unless somebody's 17 coming in off the street. It's already pre-bed 18 was made that you're giving to them to put this 19 over here. And usually they try to put them on 20 G tier, single cell until they can find out 21 what their affiliation is or anything like 22 that. 23 MR. : Okay. But to you though, 24 if there's one person in that cell, does that 25 look like it's too much linen and too much EFTA00113845 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 clothing? 2 MR. THOMAS: Like again, I can't tell 3 what's ripped up and what's not ripped up. 4 MR. : Okay. But -. Okay. Do 5 you mind just initialing and dating these? 6 MR. : I've just got a question. 7 Did the cell look like that when you walked in? 8 MR. THOMAS: Uh, I don't remember the 9 clothes and stuff being on the floor. I don't 10 remember that much linen being on the floor. 11 just remember -. Honestly I couldn't tell you 12 what's there so I just remember him hanging on 13 this side. 14 MR. MITCHELL: Break's already 15 (Indiscernible *03:08:48) 16 MR. : Push pause? Alright. 17 We're being asked to take a break. It is 18 currently -- 19 MR. THOMAS: 1:26. Oops. 20 MR. : 1:26 p.m. This is 21 Senior Special Agent and I am 22 pushing pause on the recorder. [Whereupon, the 23 above-entitled matter went off the record and 24 went back on the record.] Alright. The 25 recorder is back on. It is 1:38 p.m. on June EFTA00113846 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 17, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 2 We are resuming the interview. I 3 just remind you it is a voluntary interview and 4 you are under oath. Alright. So where we left 5 off was we were talking about the linens. 6 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 7 MR. : And we were showing you 8 the pictures. 9 MR. THOMAS: Absolutely. 10 MR. : Did you provide Epstein 11 with any additional clothing or linens? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Ever? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No. Is that anything 16 that would typically happen between the hours 17 that you work? 18 MR. THOMAS: No. 19 MR. : 12:00 to 8:00 a.m.? 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : Okay. Is providing 22 inmates with extra clothing and linens a 23 security risk? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't -. I 25 don't know if it's a security risk or anything EFTA00113847 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 272 1 like that because I know when -. I don't know. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 4 MR. : And when - we touched on 5 this but when inmates are provided linens, is 6 it supposed to be a one-for-one exchange? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. : Alright. And is that 9 typically what they are utilizing in order to 10 do things like hang themselves? 11 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I really don't 12 know what's the typical thing. 13 MR. : That's what they used in 14 this case though it appears? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah that's what it appears 16 in this case. You see the sheet or a shirt. 17 don't know what it is. 18 MR. : Okay. And somebody on 19 suicide watch. Do you think it's abnormal? 20 Again, you didn't provide the linens. But do 21 you think that's abnormal if he had extra 22 linens if he was someone that was just on 23 suicide watch? Or a -? 24 MR. THOMAS: It's not abnormal for someone 25 to have extra linen and -. EFTA00113848 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It's not? 2 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. 3 MR. : So is that a -? If it's 4 supposed to be a one-for-one exchange is that 5 like a constant problem then at the MCC? 6 MR. THOMAS: In a perfect world. In a 7 perfect world it couldn't be but I like I said, 8 I'm not custody. I'm not always up there like 9 that. And when, as you can see, all the linen 10 and that stuff is already done. 11 MR. : Okay. And again, we 12 talked about his briefly. But what material 13 was used to take Epstein's life in August 2019? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what is that a 15 sheet or a shirt? I don't know exactly what it 16 is. 17 MR. : This orange cotton which 18 could be either -- 19 MR. THOMAS: A sheet or a shirt. 20 MR. : -- a sheet or a shirt . 21 Okay. 22 MR. THOMAS: A sheet or a shirt. 23 MR. : Does this appear to be 24 what it was that removed from Mr. Epstein? 25 MR. THOMAS: It appears to be. Yes. EFTA00113849 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 1 MR. : Okay. Can you just walk 2 me through? Like this thing specifically looks 3 like it's still intact. 4 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Did you have to rip it 6 off or slide it over his head? 7 MR. THOMAS: No, not -. What are you 8 talking about was this still intact? Yeah. I 9 took that off his head. I guess I took it off 10 his head. I don't remember I did, but I guess 11 I took it off him. But like I said when I 12 ripped it, it was tied to the other portion of 13 it. 14 MR. : Okay. So maybe -. 15 MR. THOMAS: That's what I mean when I 16 ripped it off, like that just when I just 17 pulled it off. 18 MR. : Okay. So maybe it could 19 have also been possible was that this part 20 that's what was actually connected and this is 21 the part that you possibly ripped? 22 MR. THOMAS: Just pushed off. Yeah like 23 that. It probably just slipped through or 24 whatever the case be through that. 25 MR. : Okay. But um so you EFTA00113850 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 ripped it. You said you ripped it off. 2 MR. THOMAS: Yeah ripped it. I just 3 ripped it from the piece that's still dangling. 4 MR. : You don't recall actually 5 sliding it? 6 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall. If it's 7 still intact, maybe it did. I don't recall 8 taking it off but -- 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah-yeah, and 10 again, I don't know that that was what was 11 actually around his neck. 12 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 13 MR. : But that does appear to 14 be probably what was around his neck? 15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 16 MR. : Is that correct? 17 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 18 MR. : You're not exactly sure. 19 MR. THOMAS: I'm not exactly sure. 20 MR. : But does that look like 21 something like what you recall when you did 22 take if off of him? 23 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 24 MR. : Alright. Just because I 25 showed it, you want to just initial and date. EFTA00113851 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 , you had a couple of follow-up 2 questions. Can you do that now? 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : With regard to when you 5 conducted the (Indiscernible 6 MR. THOMAS: No problem. 7 MR. : Well he -. Agent just 8 mentioned it too. So you walked in. And 1 9 Epstein to your right or your left? 10 MR. THOMAS: My right. 11 MR. : Okay. And when you see him, 12 right. Is he hanging? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 14 MR. : And where was in comparison 15 to this - sorry. In comparison to this 16 picture, whereabouts what his head? 17 MR. THOMAS: Maybe a little bit below the 18 circle. Maybe about right here I guess. I 19 don't -. I can't remember exactly or maybe a 20 little bit below the circle. 21 MR. : And was his whole body on the 22 floor? Was his butt on the floor? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : What part of his body was on 25 the floor? EFTA00113852 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall what was on 2 the floor. I don't think anything was on the 3 floor. I don't really remember. 4 MR. : Was his legs on the floor? 5 Feet on the floor? 6 MR. THOMAS: Well I'm going to say his 7 feet was on the floor? 8 MR. : You would assume because 9 it doesn't look that high. 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Because it doesn't' 11 have the - yeah. 12 MR. : So you think his feet 13 were on the floor? 14 MR. THOMAS: I really don't remember 15 exactly. But I mean I would assume his feet 16 was on the floor. 17 MR. : So when you saw the - now see 18 there's a knot on the noose right here. What 19 part of the neck was the knot on? Like when 20 you see it, did you try to loosen it or tried 21 to take it off, what part of the neck was that 22 on? Do you recall at all? 23 MR. THOMAS: I really don't. I really 24 don't. 25 MR. : And when you pulled it. It EFTA00113853 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 looks like there's a portion left back on here. 2 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : Was that attached to this? 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't -. like he said, he 5 said that was the portion that -. like I said, 6 when I remember ripping all that down, I don't 7 know if I just if it slipped through or 8 whatever the case may be. I just remember 9 going like this and he going to the ground. 10 And then we started doing chest compressions. 11 MR. : And he came off easily? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes he came off easily. It 13 didn't come off too hard. 14 MR. : And you don't recall trying 15 to -? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall taking the 17 noose off. I really don't. I don't recall 18 taking the thing from around his neck. 19 MR. : Do you remember if the linen 20 ripped so it's separated from this or if this 21 is possibly the same thing as that? Do you 22 recall when you ripped it. Do you remember if 23 it like tore and broke and came into two 24 separate pieces? 25 MR. THOMAS: I don't. EFTA00113854 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 MR. : No? 2 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 3 MR. : So when you looked into his 4 cell. Was the lights on and stuff? 5 MR. THOMAS: I want to say the lights was 6 on. I think the lights was on. 7 MR. : Okay. You knocked on the 8 cell. And he didn't answer. So you had to 9 open it? 10 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 11 MR. : Do you recall actually 12 opening the - turning the key to open the cell 13 or was the cell already open? 14 MR. THOMAS: Nah. The cell was - I had to 15 open the cell. 16 MR. : Okay. And you walked in. 17 You saw this. Now I want to - in this picture, 18 I saw something. This picture right here. The 19 one you initialed. You see the mattress on the 20 floor? 21 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 22 MR. : Was that on the floor when 23 you walked in? 24 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. I don't 25 know. EFTA00113855 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 MR. : Because he would have been 2 technically he would have been laying here, 3 right? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, he's off to -- 5 MR. : On the right side? 6 MR. THOMAS: -- the side. Yeah, you can't 7 see the -. You can't see this side right here. 8 But he's off to this side. 9 MR. : And -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Because there's a lip like 11 you said there's a lip right here is covering 12 that side of the wall. 13 MR. : And this mattress. Where 14 does that belong. Up here on top? 15 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. If that one's on the 16 floor yeah, that belongs on the top. 17 MR. : And you don't recall all of 18 this laying around or anything? 19 MR. THOMAS: No I don't. No I don't. 20 MR. : We're just trying to get an 21 idea. Was the cell a mess or anything like 22 that? 23 MR. THOMAS: It could be a totally 24 different things because I've seen inmates like 25 it looked like that and they mattress on the EFTA00113856 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 floor. Some inmates sleep on the floor. Just 2 because it's a bunkbed, they don't have to 3 sleep on the top. Some people just sleep on 4 the floor. And then. I mean, I'm just saying 5 because all that stuff was up top there, maybe 6 he just slept on the floor. I don't know. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Alright. Now we're going 9 back to the linens. 10 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Was Epstein given any 12 special privileges to have extra clothing? Or 13 linens? 14 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 15 MR. : You're not sure. If he 16 was, what shift would typically take care of 17 that. 18 MR. THOMAS: It could be day watch or 19 evening watch. 20 MR. : So either of the two 21 other shifts? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. Was - do you know 24 if anything was in Epstein's cell that should 25 not have been in there? EFTA00113857 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 2 MR. : Can you tell me a little 3 bit about cell searches and how they work in 4 the SHU? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um.... They usually conduct 6 it on the day shift. Because that's when most 7 people are around just in case you have an 8 uncooperative inmate. And you check the cell 9 for contraband. Contraband can be anywhere 10 from a leftover tray being in there to too much 11 papers. Inmates who get mail, too many papers 12 left in there which is called nuisance trash. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. THOMAS: But it all depends on anybody 15 else. Who is conducting it. 16 MR. : And this isn't regarding 17 your specific shift. I mean it discussed your 18 shift, but for cell searches this shows it's 19 the MCC New York Special Post Order Special 20 Housing Unit. For here it says, "All SHU staff 21 are expected to conduct searches of the special 22 housing unit. The morning watch officer will 23 conduct searches of the common areas and 24 document their findings in the search section 25 of the TruScape program. The day watch EFTA00113858 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 officers will conduct a search of every 2 inmate's cell who attends recreation. The 3 evening watch officers will conduct a minimum 4 of five cell searches during their shift. The 5 entire special housing unit will be searched 6 each and every week." Um, do you know, is that 7 your understanding of what the policy is? 8 MR. THOMAS: Uh, yes. 9 MR. : Do you know if the other 10 - if MCC was following this policy? The 11 officers that were assigned. Were they 12 actually conducting -- ? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. I don't know. 14 I don't know. 15 MR. : Um do you have any 16 knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches 17 in the SHU? 18 MR. THOMAS: I'm sure that they do. like 19 I said, I'm not custody up there during the day 20 and during the evening, so I don't know what 21 their - what time and no specific time when 22 those have to be done. So I don't know. 23 MR. : Alright. And again, just 24 because I showed it to you. Do you mind just 25 initialing page 5 of 14 on the uh special post EFTA00113859 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 orders for the SHU? Do you know of any 2 interactions that Epstein had with other 3 inmates? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : No. And you said the 6 last time that you interacted with Epstein was 7 when you fed him the morning before? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : And I apologize now it 10 was so many hours ago, what was his state of 11 mind? At the time? Could you tell? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. : Did he seem unusual? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. 15 MR. : No? 16 MR. THOMAS: No. 17 MR. : Did it at all strike you 18 that maybe he was getting ready to kill himself 19 or anything? 20 MR. THOMAS: Hm-mm. No. 21 MR. : In distress? No? Did he 22 complain about anything? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : Did you talk with him at 25 all? EFTA00113860 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 MR. THOMAS: No. 2 MR. : You didn't say good 3 morning or anything? 4 MR. THOMAS: If I did, I don't remember. 5 If I did say, here's your tray. 6 MR. : Do you know of any 7 threats that were made to Epstein? 8 MR. THOMAS: No. 9 MR. : Do you know why Epstein 10 was in prison? 11 MR. THOMAS: Now I do, yes. 12 MR. : Did you at the time? 13 MR. THOMAS: I really didn't know who 14 Epstein was. 15 MR. : You didn't? 16 MR. THOMAS: Or the stipulations behind 17 everything behind him. No. 18 MR. : Alright. So at the time, 19 did you have any specific feelings in regard to 20 21 MR. THOMAS: No. 22 MR. : -- Epstein? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : No? Did you speak about 25 Epstein with other inmates? EFTA00113861 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 MR. THOMAS: No 2 MR. : No. When the medical 3 emergency was discovered, do you believe that 4 you and Noel acted appropriately per BOP 5 policy? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Were you and/or Noel 8 supposed to take immediate action or should 9 have you waited for responding staff? 10 MR. THOMAS: I think we're supposed to 11 take immediate action. 12 MR. : Okay. Did BOP policy say 13 that you should have called a lieutenant and 14 wait for their arrival prior to entering 15 Epstein's cell? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what the policy 17 says. 18 MR. : Yeah-yeah. So is it -? 19 Have you ever been taught that like it could be 20 a ruse and if you go in there by yourself 21 without responding staff, they could then 22 overtake you and then potentially have you as a 23 hostage? 24 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I've heard that. I've 25 heard that before. But then I've always heard EFTA00113862 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 it has to be two staff members to one inmate. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. THOMAS: And me and Noel was there. 4 So. 5 MR. : Okay. So you believe 6 because Noel was there you followed the policy? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: I'm not worried about. 10 MR. : So you said that after 11 the medical emergency, you actually went down 12 with them to the second floor. Did anything 13 happen with Epstein's body on the way? Did you 14 guys like drop the stretcher 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : -- or anything like that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : He remained - his body 19 maintained? What about when you were getting 20 him on to the stretcher? Was he - did he do a 21 smooth transition from the floor up to the 22 stretcher? 23 MR. THOMAS: As far as I can remember. 24 don't really recall directly, but -- 25 MR. : You don't remember EFTA00113863 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 MR. THOMAS: -- I don't think it was any 2 different. 3 MR. : -- him dropping or 4 landing -- 5 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't 6 MR. : -- on anything like that? 7 MR. THOMAS: remember any of that. 8 MR. : What about when he was 9 going from the stretcher to whatever they put 10 they put him on when you got to the second 11 floor? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, once we got to the 13 second floor and he got into the room, I was 14 hands-off though. There were so many other 15 people around, I didn't - I wasn't part of 16 that. 17 MR. : And did you leave at that 18 time? Leave that room? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes, I left that room at that 20 time. 21 MR. : Where did you go? And 22 what did you do? 23 MR. THOMAS: Um....um.... I don't 24 remember exactly where I went. I think I went 25 to my office and then I stepped outside. EFTA00113864 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 MR. : Okay. Did any 2 supervisors or staff talk to you about the 3 incident? 4 MR. THOMAS: No. 5 MR. : No? Did you make any 6 statements to anyone? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : Did you sign any 9 paperwork? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. 11 MR. : What time did your shift 12 end? 13 MR. THOMAS: Right after that incident. 14 MR. : Okay. So what time did 15 you depart the MCC approximately? 16 MR. THOMAS: I, uh, maybe about 9:30-ish I 17 guess. 18 MR. : Alright. So it happened 19 at like 6:33, but you did stay until -? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, I stayed until because 21 about 8 - let's say about 8:00 something 22 because when I was trying to leave and go home, 23 I kept getting calls of course from everybody 24 then and then um, uh, and the warden called me. 25 And told me he was just concerned about me EFTA00113865 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 because of what I've seen and me being 2 traumatized and so he sent somebody to come 3 talk to me and they met me further down from 4 the thing to come talk to me. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. THOMAS: Somebody from the crisis 7 support team -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. THOMAS: --came to talk to me. 10 MR. : Alright. So probably 11 around 8-ish is when you're thinking? 12 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, about 8-ish or so. 13 MR. : Okay. Did you handle or 14 touch any of Epstein's files or paperwork on -- 15 MR. THOMAS: No. 16 MR. : -- August 10, 2019? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : During your shift, would 19 you - do you ever 20 MR. THOMAS: No. 21 MR. : -- handle any files? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. They're in their 23 sleeping. No, we don't touch any of those. 24 MR. : Uh.... 25 MR. THOMAS: You're talking about any EFTA00113866 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 files inside his cell? 2 MR. : No, the files that you 3 guys have that you maintain for the inmates. 4 MR. THOMAS: No, I didn't touch any of 5 those things. 6 MR. : I think they are called 7 292s or something. 8 MR. THOMAS: Oh yeah. No, I didn't touch 9 any of those things. 10 MR. : And do you ever touch 11 them during your shifts? 12 MR. THOMAS: During a shift? No. 13 MR. : No? 14 MR. THOMAS: Well excuse me. Let me 15 change that. After you finish feeding, you 16 mark that you fed everybody. But that's not a 17 paperwork thing, I think - if I'm not mistaken 18 that's done on the computer. 19 MR. : Okay. So that's not 20 something you do -- 21 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. 22 MR. : -- like on August 9th, 23 you wouldn't have gone into Epstein's file? 24 MR. THOMAS: No. 25 MR. : Have you ever seen EFTA00113867 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein's file? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. 3 MR. : No? Do you know anybody 4 that did potentially remove files from 5 Epstein's files? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. 7 MR. : Do you know that anybody 8 that went back into the SHU and removed any 9 like tags or documents or -? 10 MR. THOMAS: I was gone. I don't know. 11 MR. : Okay. But did you remove 12 anything from the office? 13 MR. THOMAS: I didn't remove any. No. 14 MR. : No? 15 MR. : Can I ask, do you know where 16 the file is kept? 17 MR. THOMAS: Ah, no. 18 MR. : And so you never removed 19 or destroyed any of Epstein's paperwork? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 21 MR. : And you never removed or 22 destroyed any signs related to Epstein? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 24 MR. : That were up in the SHU? 25 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. EFTA00113868 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. : Um, did you ever access 2 any BOP databases such as BOPWARE, Sentry, 3 TruView, after Epstein was discovered on August 4 10th? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. I haven't been back to 6 that institution. No. 7 MR. : No? And you can only 8 access that from the institution? 9 MR. THOMAS: Exactly. 10 MR. : Did you ever discuss 11 anyone altering any documents? 12 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 13 MR. : Removing any documents? 14 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 15 MR. : Accessing any BOP 16 databases? 17 MR. THOMAS: No, I did not. 18 MR. : No. Did anyone tell you 19 that they -? 20 MR. THOMAS: No, they did not. 21 MR. : -- destroyed anything? 22 MR. THOMAS: No, they did not. 23 MR. : Moved anything? 24 MR. THOMAS: No, sir. 25 MR. : Or access to any EFTA00113869 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 ' 1 databases? 2 MR. THOMAS: No, sir. 3 MR. : Have you reported for any 4 shifts following August 10, 2019? 5 MR. THOMAS: No. 6 MR. : No. Were you placed on 7 administrative leave? 8 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 9 MR. : By whom? 10 MR. THOMAS: Whoever is in charge. I 11 can't remember what my letter says. It's the 12 warden I guess. 13 MR. : So they didn't speak to 14 you directly? 15 MR. THOMAS: Um, no. I got a letter in 16 the mail. 17 MR. : And that's how they 18 informed you? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. What did the 21 letter say? 22 MR. THOMAS: I'm placed on administrative 23 leave pretty much. 24 MR. : Oh. 25 MR. THOMAS: And a whole bunch of pending EFTA00113870 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 something. I can't remember exact lettering 2 wording that they said. 3 MR. : Okay. And is that what 4 you remain on now? Administrative leave? 5 MR. THOMAS: Um, no. I'm on 6 MR. : Indefinite suspension? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 8 MR. : Did you communicate with 9 Noel after Epstein's body was discovered? 10 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 11 MR. : So you have not 12 communicated with her since? 13 MR. THOMAS: Uh, besides one time we had a 14 sit-down and talk after the case was over. 15 Well after the um, the thing, we just had a 16 union meeting. That was it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. THOMAS: And she did come there and 19 that type of thing. But we didn't discuss the 20 case. 21 MR. : You didn't discuss the 22 case? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, we did not. 24 MR. : Okay. So who from the 25 MCC have you communicated with regarding EFTA00113871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 Epstein's incident on August 10th? 2 MR. THOMAS: Nobody. 3 MR. : No one? 4 MR. THOMAS: Nobody. 5 MR. : I'm assuming aside from 6 your union representative? 7 MR. THOMAS: Well I just actually just 8 started to him more often. But yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. So he would be the 10 only one? 11 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Him. The union 12 president. 13 MR. : Okay. Can 10 S - and 14 this is something that I just thought of when 15 you just took a break - something that I 16 realized I didn't ask. Can 10 South obtain 17 access to the SHU? 18 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 19 MR. : And can they do that 20 without anyone allowing them to enter? 21 MR. THOMAS: No-no. You're talking about 22 from the outside? No. 23 MR. : So 24 MR. THOMAS: They have to come through the 25 SHU to get to 10 South. There's no other way EFTA00113872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 from anybody from the outside or from any other 2 part in the institution to get the SHU besides 3 from the outer door. 4 MR. : Okay. So could have - 5 could have anyone from 10 South accessed the 6 SHU without you or Noel being -? 7 MR. THOMAS: No. 8 MR. : No? And can you just 9 show who was in 10 South when you were there? 10 Can you show me on the Daily Assignment Roster? 11 So who would have been in 10 South when you 12 guys were there? 13 MR. THOMAS: . I. 14 MR. : And do you remember if. 15 visited the SHU at any time? 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember. 17 MR. : Would have they been the 18 closest unit to you though? 19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. But you don't 21 recall if -? 22 MR. THOMAS: I don't recall (Indiscernible 23 *03:26:38) 24 MR. : Okay. And for feeding or 25 any counts or anything like that, did you guys EFTA00113873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 - would you typically interact? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well if they just for 3 the count to help them count. 4 MR. : Okay. Would that - would 5 he personally -? What time would he be on too? 6 Same shift as you? Until 8:00 a.m.? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah. Same shift. 8 MR. : Would he possibly be the 9 person that showed up at 5:30 a.m. in the SHU? 10 MR. THOMAS: No because he was on for the 11 morning watch. If he was on there from 12:00 12 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 13 MR. : Alright. But you don't 14 recall -- 15 MR. THOMAS: Somebody coming in at 5:30? 16 MR. : -- who showed up at 5:30 17 a.m.? 18 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't recall anybody 19 coming in at 5:30. 20 MR. : Okay. So 4:00 a.m. was 21 Lieutenant but you don't remember 22 anybody at 5:30 a.m.? 23 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't remember anybody 24 at 5:30 a.m. 25 MR. : Alright. But there's no EFTA00113874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 -. You were there and there's no way that 2 anyone could have accessed the SHU aside from 3 4 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, nobody -. 5 MR. : -- Noel or you allowing 6 them to get in? 7 MR. THOMAS: To allow them to get in. 8 Yeah. 9 MR. : Okay. And you said 10 Epstein's cell was locked when you -- 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MR. : -- went there? And when 13 you did find him and rip the thing off, did you 14 notice that his body was either cold or warm? 15 MR. THOMAS: I didn't notice. 16 MR. : You didn't notice that? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : Is there anything that 19 I'm missing? Anything you want to add to this? 20 MR. THOMAS: Um, I don't. I guess I'm not 21 well-versed in -. No. 22 MR. : Please, well-versed in 23 what? 24 MR. THOMAS: Well-versed in the policy or 25 anything, but no, I have nothing to add. EFTA00113875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30C 1 MR. : Okay. , would you 2 like to -? 3 MR. : I just have a few follow-up 4 questions. 5 MR. THOMAS: Sure. 6 MR. : When we showed you that email 7 from . You said that you've seen 8 that before. Right? 9 MR. THOMAS: I said I've seen that before? 10 MR. : Is that - not that email 11 specifically. But you've seen that type of 12 email sent out from psych before. 13 MR. THOMAS: I said I've seen that type of 14 email that you know I thought I didn't read 15 the top of the email because some of them just 16 say MYM all staff. Because they say all staff 17 and it's sent out to everybody. 18 MR. : Is it normally sent out to 19 everyone? 20 MR. THOMAS: No. Sometimes it is. 21 Sometimes with that specific probably was just 22 sent out to the SHU and staff. Because my name 23 wasn't on it. And I'm not custody, so it was 24 probably just sent out to custody. 25 MR. : If it was an important EFTA00113876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 301 1 decision, it's something that needed immediate 2 attention, would they have sent out - 3 MR. THOMAS: Above my paygrade. 4 MR. : No would they have normally 5 sent it out to all staff? 6 MR. THOMAS: No. It doesn't have to. 7 MR. : Okay. Now Agent just 8 asked you a question about could anyone have 9 come in and out of 9 South. Out of the SHU. 10 MR. : 10 South. 11 MR. : Out of 10 South, but out of 12 the SHU. If you were sleeping -- 13 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. -- is it possible someone 15 could have came on to the - into the SHU and 16 left without you knowing if you were sleeping? 17 MR. THOMAS: No. 18 MR. : Because you would have to let 19 them in? 20 MR. THOMAS: I would have to let them in. 21 MR. : Is there any other way they 22 could have got in without you letting them in? 23 MR. THOMAS: No. 24 MR. : Could someone else have a key 25 that they could have used? EFTA00113877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 302 1 MR. THOMAS: It would have to come from 2 control. Keys are in - the only other keys are 3 in control. 4 MR. : So the only other key is in 5 the control? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. So the count sheets. 8 We spoke about the count sheets and the 9 signature was Noel's. Right? 10 MR. THOMAS: My - yeah. 11 MR. : The initials -- 12 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 13 MR. : -- were Noel's? 14 MR. : Not the counts. That was 15 the on the rounds. 16 MR. : I'm mean, sorry, the round 17 sheets. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Noel took - initials were or 20 it. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Do you recall when Noel 23 signed those sheets? 24 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't. 25 MR. : If you guys - if the video EFTA00113878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 303 1 Let's just say you guys were both asleep at one 2 point. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : For a couple of hours. Would 5 she have filled it up - signed those sheets 6 before or after? Because she would not have 7 committed those - she wouldn't have done those 8 rounds. Did you ever see her pull those round 9 sheets out and initial them? 10 MR. THOMAS: No. I really wasn't paying 11 attention to what she was doing. I really 12 don't remember. 13 MR. : Have you ever worked in the 14 SHU with Noel before? 15 MR. THOMAS: It's possible. I don't know 16 - I don't really remember. Maybe I have. i 17 don't really remember. It's possible, but like 18 I said, I don't know. 19 MR. : Okay. The reason I ask is 20 that if you've never worked with Noel before, 21 and you said that most of the times you do the 22 rounds and the counts. 23 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Would it have been kind of 25 awkward that both of you guys sat down, didn't EFTA00113879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 1 discuss the fact you're not going to do the 2 counts, didn't discuss the fact you're not 3 going to do the rounds, and just sat down, 4 slept, and - you know, went on the computer. 5 But no one spoke about the facts but someone 6 between both of you guys, you initialed the 7 round - the count slips and also the round 8 sheets? 9 MR. THOMAS: Speaking of, I don't believe 10 that we had any conversations. I don't really 11 remember any conversations that we had or 12 anything like that. There are some things that 13 are just not spoken about. It could have been 14 - like I said, I was exhausted. Hey, listen, 15 did whatever-whatever. And she did whatever- 16 whatever. And that was it. 17 MR. : Does it mean -? 18 MR. THOMAS: There wasn't no -. 19 MR. : If you worked with her in the 20 past, does that mean you guys did the same 21 thing in the past? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. 23 MR. : And just knew that -? 24 MR. THOMAS: No, it doesn't mean that. 25 Absolutely not. EFTA00113880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 305 1 MR. : How come either of you didn't 2 nudge each other to say, let's go? 3 MR. THOMAS: I can't say what happened. 4 What was going on with her. I knew what was 5 going on with me. I was just, as you could see 6 by my um, roster. And that's not my work 7 roster. That's just my overtime roster that 8 you all pulled up and brought to me. It's 9 every day. Every day. And I was just in a 10 Had things that I had going on at the time. 11 MR. : I think the point being 12 there, and again because you're under oath, we 13 just want to make sure -- 14 MR. THOMAS: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- that we're clear here. 16 Is the fact that -- 17 MR. THOMAS: It wasn't a discussion 18 though. 19 MR. : -- it was like an 20 unspoken thing that you guys did. But it 21 seemed to be so natural that you didn't conduct 22 any rounds or any counts. So it just seems odd 23 that that wouldn't have happened like that in 24 the past. If there was no discussions that 25 were had. EFTA00113881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 1 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I - if I did 2 work with her, I don't remember if I did or 3 not. I mean it's quite possible. I don't 4 remember everybody that I work with in the SHU. 5 So um, but it wasn't something that we just 6 spoke about. 7 MR. : Isn't it kind of awkward that 8 the one night that both of you guys decided 9 that the rounds are not going to be done, the 10 counts are not going to be done, that this 11 incident happens? 12 MR. THOMAS: It is. 13 MR. : Is it possible that -- 14 MR. THOMAS: But it's never happened 15 before so of course it's an awkward thing. 16 MR. : Is it possible that you guys 17 haven't done any of the rounds or counts on 18 shifts before? 19 MR. THOMAS: No, that's not possible. 1 20 wouldn't put that all - to label one night for 21 every night that happens in the SHU. 22 Absolutely not. I wouldn't label that. 23 MR. : He admitted already that 24 he didn't conduct all of the counts and rounds 25 he's documented, but he thinks he's done the EFTA00113882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 307 1 majority of them. Is that correct? 2 MR. THOMAS: I said I'm not perfect. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. THOMAS: And I've done my rounds. 5 I've done all my rounds all the time but that 6 I'm not a perfect person. I may have slipped 7 up here or there sometime, but I have done my 8 rounds. Just one particular night I was -. 9 MR. : But not -. I think what 10 you said before you didn't You're not 11 perfect. You haven't done all of your rounds 12 but that mostly. 13 MR. THOMAS: I would say that on schedule 14 that I do my rounds 90% - 95.9% of the time. 15 And sometimes I don't do the half an hour, I do 16 it at the hour. 17 MR. : Well what about -? 18 MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean? But 19 it's still the rounds getting conducted. 20 MR. : And what about for the 21 counts? And now we're talking specifically for 22 the SHU. 23 MR. THOMAS: We're talking about 24 specifically for the SHU, I usually get every 25 count done - every count done. EFTA00113883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 308 1 MR. : Okay. So and again, if 2 we go back to actually the video and check to 3 see if you're doing the counts, is that - 4 again, and I'm only saying this because I was 5 to just remind you you're under oath. 6 MR. THOMAS: I understand. 7 MR. : And this is where that we 8 can bring this back up to like -. 9 MR. THOMAS: I totally understand. If you 10 go back to the video, you will see that you'll 11 catch me doing my rounds or you'll catch me 12 doing my counts. Like I said, then that's when 13 I said whereas I'm not perfect. Like I said 14 95. Maybe one oh hold up you know he didn't do 15 this one. An hour went by but he did it at an 16 hour and one minute. So then technically, by 17 the paperwork that I didn't do it every half an 18 hour. Correct? If I do it over every hour, 19 technically by the paperwork I didn't do a half 20 an hour round I did an hour round. 21 MR. : But you would have to 22 still certify that you did it every half hour. 23 MR. THOMAS: No, you don't have to certify 24 that you did every half hour. I don't believe 25 that it has to be. If you write on that paper EFTA00113884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 1 that I did it every hour, it's just when a 2 round was conducted. When I conducted the 3 round. 4 MR. : So in order for the 5 rounds to be completed, you don't have to 6 actually sign it every 30 minutes? 7 MR. THOMAS: It could be -. I'm not 8 saying that it has to. It's supposed to be 9 done every 30 minutes. But if I didn't do it 10 every 30 minutes, and I did one an hour, that's 11 when I wrote that time on there. 12 MR. : Alright. So you wouldn't 13 then go back and fill in that 30 minutes? 14 MR. THOMAS: No I wouldn't go back and 15 fill it in. 16 MR. : Like see how they have 17 like - so you would leave one blank of it 18 wasn't conducted? 19 MR. THOMAS: No, you wouldn't leave one 20 blank. Because somebody would tell you to fill 21 it in. If I did it -. 22 MR. : That's what I'm saying. 23 MR. THOMAS: If it was from 12:30 to 1:00 24 and I did the round once, so I just put 12:30 25 to 1:00. Like you'll see some round sheets it EFTA00113885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 1 says from 12:00 to -. I didn't do it at -. 2 But between 12:30 but I put 12:45. The round 3 is still conducted. 4 MR. : So what are you saying? 5 So like if it was -. 6 MR. THOMAS: It probably wasn't done in a 7 half an hour block. 8 MR. : So you put. 9 MR. THOMAS: It probably wasn't just done 10 in a half an hour block but it was still 11 conducted. 12 MR. : Right. So a round was 13 conducted. But if it was covering two - if it 14 was conducting an hour block, how would you 15 fill in the two? Would they be identical? 16 MR. THOMAS: As you can - no. Because as 17 you can see right here, it's not a specific 18 time. Because this just says as long as it's 19 between this time. So if it was - I did it at 20 12:10, I started here at 12:10. And then I did 21 the round here. It lapped over to 12:40 22 because I got to talking to an inmate or like 23 that. It's still - the round is still 24 conducted. Then right here, then I did - you 25 know what I'm saying. I go at 12:52 and I did EFTA00113886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 311 1 it at - I did a fast round. I did it from 2 12:52 to 12:59. The round is still conducted. 3 But even though the last though, you're caught 4 up in the -. I understand because it's in 5 black and white. It's not just done just like 6 that. It can be done at any given time as long 7 as the round is conducted. It doesn't have to 8 be -. By policy it's supposed to be in the 30- 9 minute block. That's when you're talking 10 policy. But -. 11 MR. : Would 30 to 40 yeah. 12 MR. THOMAS: 30 to 40 minute block but 13 like I say, if I did it at 12:10 and did it at 14 12:40 and then right here I wanted to just - 15 because I wanted to get a round done, I conduct 16 it at 12:52 to 12:59, it's still within that 17 block. It's still conducted. 18 MR. : Well that's conducting a 19 around. Correct. But what I thought you said 20 it was like you might not do it for a whole 21 hour. 22 MR. THOMAS: But that - but I'm -. Excuse 23 me, I apologize. That's a 12:10 to 12:40 to 24 12:42, I'm saying that's an hour. Because 25 that's pretty much - we've got 20 minutes - 10 EFTA00113887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 1 minutes before and 10 minutes after. Then you 2 have the hour. But that's the whole hour. So 3 if I did it for 12:00 to 1:00, then I did from 4 1:00 to 2:00. It's still conducted. It's just 5 not conducted in your 30-minute span as you 6 say. I didn't do the in between but it's still 7 conducted. You see what I'm saying? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 10 MR. : Because you're talking 11 about one to two, that's a whole hour. And 12 we're not talking about within 30 minutes. 13 MR. THOMAS: But within the 30 minutes, 14 that's not doing it every 30 minutes like how 15 it's supposed to be done. But then if I did it 16 12:00 to 1:00, it's still conducted, but it's 17 not conducted the correct way. A round is 18 still conducted, but it's not conducted the 19 correct way. No? 20 MR. : No. Because -. 21 MR. THOMAS: Do you understand? 22 MR. : No I understand what you're 23 saying. 24 MR. : Because if you're saying 25 you're doing one round within an hour and you EFTA00113888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 1 have to document it one round every 30 minutes, 2 so you can only then fill out one of these 3 blocks. Which one are you going to fill out? 4 Or are you going to do the e same thing in an 5 identical place - 12:09, 12:09? 6 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, you just -. 7 MR. : But at 12:30 will there 8 be identical blocks that you're - identical 9 times that you're -. 10 MR. THOMAS: Well that's up to the person. 11 MR. : But what you're saying is 12 that if you did it at 12:25 and ended at 12:35, 13 that covered those 30 minutes. 14 MR. THOMAS: No, you still put that in the 15 one block. 16 MR. : You're saying the start 17 time and end time -. 18 MR. THOMAS: No, you still put that in the 19 one block. You're being - if I did it from 20 12:25 and at 12:30, I would still put that in 21 that one block. And then this next one, 22 whatever the time is, like I said 12:41. And 23 then 12:00 to 12:42 because remember, this is 24 just a tier. This is not the whole round. 25 This is just a tier. So what you're saying is EFTA00113889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 314 1 this whole -. See this is 12 - 1 to 1210. 2 This is just the one tier - G tier. 3 MR. Yep. 4 MR. THOMAS: So then you've got 1211 to 5 1210. Remember, this is just one tier. 6 MR. : Sure. Each one of these 7 is a different tier. 8 MR. THOMAS: Each one is just the tier. 9 So it's 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. THOMAS: -- it's taking a minute -,i 12 tier. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. THOMAS: So that's one tier. Then 15 you've got another one. 12:05 to 12 16 (Indiscernible *03:38:09). That's just one 17 tier. Not the - I'm doing 12:45 so then the 18 whole thing. 19 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 20 MR. THOMAS: So now you have to get so 21 from 12:05 to 12:20-something is when that 22 whole round was done in a 20-minute span. Do 23 you got me or are you totally lost? 24 MR. : I understand what you're 25 saying. You did it within the hour. EFTA00113890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: That -. 2 MR. RODRIGUEZ: Right? And you mark 3 But here's the thing. You're signing off or 4 initialing according to the fact that you've 5 done the count within that time period. Is 6 that right or wrong? 7 MR. THOMAS: Yeah-yeah. She initialed 8 that she did it between 12:09 and 1210. 9 MR. : No-no. Let's forget about 10 it. Just talk about you. 11 MR. THOMAS: Okay. 12 MR. : When you do your rounds. 13 MR. THOMAS: When I do - well I haven't 14 done a round in over two or something years. 15 do my rounds 12:00 to 12:10. I mean 12:00 to 16 12:30. In that block. If I did it the 17 incorrect way, I did it from 12 - it's still 18 I got it in between that time. But I still 19 wrote it 12:00 to 12:30. So 12:00 to 1:00. 20 MR. : Okay. I can't -. 21 MR. : I don't even understand 22 what your question is. 23 MR. : No-no-no. I'll come back to 24 this another part. When do you think these 25 initials were put on? EFTA00113891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 316 1 MR. THOMAS: I don't know when she wrote 2 on the paper. I don't know when she did it. 3 MR. : When did these round sheets 4 get submitted? 5 MR. THOMAS: At the end of the day. 6 MR. : End of the day. 7 MR. THOMAS: End of the whole workday not 8 the end of every work period - every eight 9 hours. 10 MR. : You wouldn't happen to know 11 if she went back and signed these after 12 MR. THOMAS: I wouldn't know. 13 MR. : -- the incident happened? 14 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know. 15 MR. : Initial log. 16 MR. THOMAS: Like I said, I lost track of 17 Noel. 18 MR. : It sounds like it may -. 19 It looks like if this is you're saying that she 20 did these rounds at 6:10, 6:11, um. What time 21 is -? 22 MR. THOMAS: They're not in order. 23 MR. : What time does breakfast 24 get there? 25 MR. THOMAS: Breakfast is no standard EFTA00113892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 317 1 time. Especially not on the weekends. You're 2 talking about on a Saturday. 3 MR. : The last one she wrote 4 was 6:13. So you assume that she did it right 5 before you know you discovered Epstein. 6 MR. THOMAS: Could have been. 7 MR. : That would be the 8 assumption. 9 MR. THOMAS: That would be the assumption 10 by the binder. I can't remember what time the 11 food cart came up. 12 MR. : But you didn't witness 13 her actually signing -- 14 MR. THOMAS: No, I don't when she put her 15 signature on that. 16 MR. : You don't remember like 17 talking? Like hey, I'm going to grab the food 18 cart. You take care of the round sheets? 19 MR. THOMAS: No. Hm-mm. 20 MR. : No? Alright. Just so 21 that that whole thing that we just talked about 22 isn't convoluted. What we talked about before 23 was that you've done the majority of the counts 24 and rounds but not all of them. 25 MR. THOMAS: I usually just plan on doing EFTA00113893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 my rounds. Yes. 2 MR. : What's that? 3 MR. THOMAS: I'm usually spot on with 4 doing my rounds. 5 MR. : Well when we talked about 6 it before, you said you weren't always. 7 MR. THOMAS: I'm not. 8 MR. : You didn't conduct all 9 rounds. 10 MR. THOMAS: I'm not perfect. I'm not 11 perfect. Maybe I missed a round or so that's 12 what I said. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. THOMAS: I'm not perfect. 15 MR. : So we're not pointing to 16 specific ones, but -- 17 MR. THOMAS: I can tell you -- 18 MR. : -- were the rounds 19 MR. THOMAS: that I wasn't perfect. 20 MR. : Right. The rounds and 21 counts that you've conducted, you believe that 22 you've conducted the majority of them -. 23 MR. THOMAS: I've done the - all my 24 rounds. Yes. 25 MR. : If you have falsified EFTA00113894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 1 some but not a lot. When I say falsified, you 2 wrote in that you conducted them, but they 3 weren't actually conducted. 4 MR. THOMAS: No. That's not what I'm 5 saying. I wrote that - I wrote that I wrote in 6 my rounds. 7 MR. : For the count slips 8 though. We're saying -. 9 MR. THOMAS: Yeah, I think -- 10 MR. : That wasn't the first 11 MR. THOMAS: you're talking about the 12 counts? This is the rounds or the counts 13 slips. 14 MR. : We're taking the 15 (Indiscernible *03:41:16)) 16 MR. THOMAS: I said I'm not I sal . 17 that I'm not perfect. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. THOMAS: You know what I mean. I 20 don't want to sit up here that I'm 100% 21 perfect. What I'm saying is that I did my - 22 I'm usually spot on with doing my rounds and 23 doing what I'm supposed to do as far as the 24 course of my job. 25 MR. : Okay. So you're saying EFTA00113895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 320 1 that these - any time you're worked in the SHU, 2 and you marked off - people have marked off 3 that you did them every 30 minutes. 4 MR. THOMAS: I don't know what people 5 marked off. I only know what I do. When 6 usually I get my stuff done. 7 MR. : So when you're in the SHU 8 on all those overtime shifts that we just 9 showed you, you're doing rounds every 30 10 minutes? 11 MR. THOMAS: I can't say that I don't 12 rounds every 30 minutes. 13 MR. : That's the question. 14 MR. THOMAS: Okay. I can't say that I did 15 rounds every 30 minutes. No, I can't say that 16 I did rounds every 30 minutes. 17 MR. : So some of -. You're 18 doing them most of the time, but some of them 19 are marked off when they weren't actually 20 conducted? 21 MR. THOMAS: Maybe. Maybe. 22 MR. : Okay. And same thing 23 with the count slips. You've done most of the 24 count slips -. 25 MR. THOMAS: No. I usually get my counts EFTA00113896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 1 done. Usually I get my counts done. 2 MR. : But not all of them. So 3 if we go back and we find sometimes you didn't 4 do it 5 MR. THOMAS: You can go back -. 6 MR. : We're probably going to 7 find - if we're reviewing video -. 8 MR. THOMAS: Of 14 years, you may have me 9 one time where I didn't get one done. 10 MR. : But even if we're just 11 talking about like August and July. If we go 12 back and review those, we're going to find at 13 least a few that weren't conducted and that 14 were written in. Is that correct? 15 MR. THOMAS: I actually don't know. I 16 honestly don't know. 17 MR. : Because I thought we 18 already covered this and you already said -. 19 MR. THOMAS: We did already cover that. 20 But I honestly don't know. I honestly don't 21 know. 22 MR. : I thought in my 23 understanding from eh conversation was that 24 yep, there's count slips that I've created in 25 the past. Most of them I've conducted, some of EFTA00113897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 322 1 them aren't going - you know. some of them, 2 yes I just signed them and put in the count 3 number. But I - you know, especially between 4 the hours of 12:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 5 MR. THOMAS: That's all my overtime right 6 there is the 12:00 a.m. to -. 7 MR. : Right. That's what I'm 8 saying. 9 MR. THOMAS: Except for one day watch. 10 MR. : Because there's that. So 11 like not every 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 12 a.m. count was conducted during a shift. 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't know. 14 MR. : Most of them but not all 15 of them. 16 MR. THOMAS: I don't - I want to say - 17 want to say all but I honestly don't know. I 18 want to say all. I want to say all. But then 19 I'm not trying to get caught up in a lie and 20 say, oh no, this one time that I didn't do it. 21 MR. : No-no-no. I'm just 22 trying to reconcile -- 23 MR. THOMAS: That's what I'm saying. 24 MR. : -- what we talked about 25 like two hours ago. EFTA00113898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. THOMAS: Exactly. 2 MR. : Because two hours ago 3 MR. THOMAS: I said I wasn't perfect. And 4 so maybe I didn't get one done or not. I don't 5 know. Like I said, I'm not perfect. I didn't 6 get maybe I didn't get one of those, but I 7 don't know. That's exactly what I said two 8 hours ago. 9 MR. : You know, my 10 understanding was that you -. Okay. So you're 11 saying you believe actually your count slips 12 are -. 13 MR. THOMAS: I believe my count slips are 14 good. I believe they are good. 15 MR. : Okay. So when we go back 16 and review the video, we're going to see that 17 you were actually doing them? 18 MR. THOMAS: You're going to see tha- 19 get my counts done. Yes. 20 MR. : And same thing for your 21 rounds? 22 MR. THOMAS: You should see me get most of 23 my rounds done. 24 MR. : Alright. Because now 25 that you're saying this, we have to go back and EFTA00113899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 324 1 review these things. 2 MR. THOMAS: I'll tell you that I'm saying 3 that I should have gotten most of my rounds and 4 if I didn't get them all done. I'm not trying 5 to lie and say I didn't. 6 MR. MITCHELL: Can we - can I -? Can we 7 go outside for a second? 8 MR. : Absolutely we can take 9 time out. It is currently 2:13 p.m. This is 10 Senior Special Agent (Indiscernible *03:43:57) 11 and we are taking a quick break. [Whereupon, 12 the above-entitled matter went off the record 13 and went back on the record.] Alright, the 14 recorder is back on. It is currently 2:18 p.m. 15 on June 17, 2021. Again everyone is present 16 aside from - I don't not believe the other 17 attorney is on the phone right now. And Mr. 18 Thomas, I remind you again this is voluntary 19 and you are under oath. Is there anything that 20 you would like to add with regard to the rounds 21 and the counts that you have conducted and 22 certified in the past prior to August 10, 2019? 23 MR. THOMAS: That I have not completed all 24 my rounds. That's it. 25 MR. : What about your counts EFTA00113900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 1 and the count slips? 2 MR. THOMAS: I have not completed all my 3 counts. 4 MR. : Alright. So in the past 5 prior to August 10, 2019, there are times that 6 you were in the SHU that you didn't conduct all 7 of your counts, but you did certify that they 8 were conducted? Is that correct? 9 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 10 MR. : Alright. And same thing 11 for the rounds. Are there times that you 12 certified on the round sheets that they were 13 conducted but they were - or you or the person 14 that you were working with certified that they 15 were conducted when they in fact were not 16 conducted? 17 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 18 MR. : And I know you were 19 saying like before like estimates. But like 20 how often would that happen? 21 MR. THOMAS: I really couldn't tell you. 22 MR. : Was it a regular 23 occurrence? 24 MR. THOMAS: I really don't know. 25 MR. : No? But it did happen in EFTA00113901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 1 the past? 2 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 3 MR. : But you're not sure how 4 often? 5 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. , would you 7 like to follow-up with additional questioning 8 on that? 9 MR. : During those times when you 10 didn't commit - conduct the rounds or the 11 counts. Was it only with Toel Nova? I mean 12 Tova Noel? 13 MR. THOMAS: I don't remember if I worked 14 if I worked with her before or not. 15 MR. : Okay. Which other COs were 16 you working with when this incidents happened? 17 MR. THOMAS: I've been there for 14 years. 18 I can't remember exactly who. I really don't 19 know who I worked with at that time. 20 MR. : So this has a span over 14 21 years? 22 MR. THOMAS: No. I don't know. I don't 23 know when this happened or not. 24 MR. : Okay. That's all. 25 MR. : Okay. Anything else you EFTA00113902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 want to add on that? 2 MR. THOMAS: No. Not at all. 3 MR. : Any further 4 clarifications? 5 MR. THOMAS: No thank you. 6 MR. : Okay. It's fairly - 7 again you can and you may. 8 MR. THOMAS: It's no problem. I'm okay. 9 MR. : Is there anything you 10 want to add to this specific instance? 11 MR. THOMAS: No, I do not. 12 MR. : Is there a certain belief 13 that you have of why Jeffrey Epstein got into 14 the place that he was? Is there a reason why 15 you think that that occurred? 16 MR. THOMAS: I can't speak for any of that 17 - no. 18 MR. : No? Okay. And are you 19 sure we want to conclude this? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : So we don't have to 22 revisit anything later in the date - anything 23 you can think of? 24 MR. : Nothing yet. 25 MR. : You're the case agent. EFTA00113903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 328 1 So I want to make sure. 2 MR. : That's it. Nothing. Because 3 we covered pretty much everything. 4 MR. THOMAS: No problem. I'm here 5 whenever you all need me again. 6 MR. : Alright. Let me just do 7 a quick review and make sure that we're good. 8 And hopefully this can be it. Alright. Are 9 you confident with all of your answers again 10 knowing that you're under oath? There's 11 nothing that you want to clarify before we end 12 this. This would be the time to do that. Any 13 kind of additional -. 14 MR. THOMAS: No, sir. 15 MR. : No? No additional 16 information? 17 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 18 MR. : No questions that we're 19 missing that we should ask? 20 MR. THOMAS: Nope. 21 MR. : No. Um, alright. This 22 is Senior Special Agent It 23 is currently 2:21 p.m. on June 17, 2021. And I 24 am turning off the recorder. 25 EFTA00113904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of MICHAEL THOMAS Transcriber EFTA00113905