EFTA00113909.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 16, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00113909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is . I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice Office of the Inspector General New 5 York Field Office. This interview is with 6 former Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional 7 officer . It is being conducted as 8 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice 9 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 10 Today's date is June 16, 2021 and the time is 11 4:38 p.m. This interview is being conducted by 12 telephone. Mr. is calling from telephone 13 number Also present is DOJ OIG 14 Special Agent . This interview is 15 being recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 16 Can everyone please 17 identify themselves for the record and spell 18 their last name. To start, I am DOJ OIG Senior 19 Special Agent 20 , can you go next? 21 MR. : I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 23 MR. : And Mr. 24 MR. -: . Last 25 four is EFTA00113911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Perfect. 2 MR. : Is that good? 3 MR. : Thank you, sir. This DOJ 4 investigation concerns the overall review of 5 this investigation has to do with job 6 performance failure and security failure. 7 That's what we're looking into as the DOJ OIG. 8 And this is - as I mentioned - an official DOJ 9 ingestion. You are being asked to provide 10 answers to our questions voluntarily. Will you 11 agree to a voluntary interview with us? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : Thank you, sir. We place 14 people under oath. It's going to eb a little 15 bit different. But do you swear to tell the 16 truth and nothing but the truth during our 17 interview? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Thank you, sir. And if 20 you don't understand any of my questions, 21 please feel free to ask me to rephrase and I': 22 do my best to make it clear. As I mentioned, 23 I'm just going to go through a couple of 24 different interview questions in the beginning 25 just to kind of get your background. So you EFTA00113912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 said you're down at the Federal law enforcement 2 training center right now, sir? 3 MR. : Yes, sir. 4 MR. : And do you have a current 5 home address? 6 MR. : Yes. It's in Florida. 7 MR. : And what's that now? 8 MR. : Uh 9 , Homestead, Florida 33035. 10 MR. : Thank you, sir. And 11 what's your date of birth? 12 MR. 13 MR. : And you said your last 14 four of your social security number were -? 15 MR. 16 MR. : Awesome. What's your 17 highest level of education? 18 MR. : Some college. 19 MR. : Where did you go to 20 college? 21 MR. : In Guam. 22 MR. : Guam how cool. When did 23 you do that? 24 MR. : I'm sorry? 25 MR. : When did you attend EFTA00113913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 college in Guam? 2 MR. : Ooh. That was in 2007 I 3 believe. 4 MR. : Did you receive like an 5 associate degree or anything? 6 MR. : No just a couple credits here 7 and there. 8 MR. : Okay. And how long did 9 you work for the Bureau of Prisons? 10 MR. : From 2004 to 2006. Then I 11 left the Bureau and I came back in 2012 until I 12 left recently and was in 2020. 13 MR. : 2020? Okay so it was 14 over a year ago that you left. Or do you 15 remember the date? 16 MR. Uh, I believe my last day was 17 On the books with - because I was on leave 18 - so on the books, technically with BOP my last 19 day was October 11 of 2020. 20 MR. : Okay. And who do you 21 currently work for? 22 MR. : Customs and border protection. 23 MR. : And when did you start 24 working for them? 25 MR. : October 13 of 2020. EFTA00113914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 MR. : And that's the purpose of 2 your training down at the Federal Law 3 Enforcement Training Center is to get 4 officially trained by them? 5 MR. : Yes, sir. 6 MR. : Alright. Thank you, sir. 7 When you were last with the Bureau of Prisons, 8 what was your title and rank? 9 MR. : I was the lieutenant GS11 10 lieutenant. 11 MR. : Perfect. Okay. I'm just 12 going to ask you As mentioned, I'm going to 13 go over an interview port that was created. 14 Was it true that you were interviewed by both 15 the FBI and the OIG back in 2019 regarding the 16 Epstein matter? 17 MR. : I believe so yes. I know OIG 18 was there. I believe one of them was an agent 19 with the FBI and they had I think an AUSA there 20 as well. 21 MR. : Okay. Great. I'm going 22 to read you that report. And if you can just 23 stop me if anything is inaccurate and as 24 mentioned, I'm going to ask for you to fill in 25 a couple of the blanks. EFTA00113915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : It says: began 3 working for the BOP in 2004 at Fort Dix, New 4 Jersey. eventually ended his employment 5 with the BOP and then later returned to the BOP 6 as a lieutenant. has - so when did you 7 become a lieutenant? 8 MR. : Um, in 2016. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : I had a couple different 11 positions before I became a lieutenant. So. 12 MR. : Okay. has since 13 been assigned to various other BOP facilities 14 including Florence and Englewood. began 15 working at the Manhattan Correction Center, 16 that's not correct though. It's the 17 Metropolitan Correctional Center. Correct: 18 MR. : Yes, sir. 19 MR. : Located at 20 New York, New York approximately one year ago. 21 Do you recall from when to when did you work at 22 the MCC? 23 MR. : Yes. It was I believe I got 24 there in like April 2018 around that. Don't 25 quote me on that. I'm not (Indiscernible EFTA00113916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 *00:05:37) around that time. It was right 2 before summer I believe. 3 MR. : And that is - did you 4 work there until you departed the BOP in 2020? 5 MR. : Yes, sir. 6 MR. : Okay. is currently 7 employed as a GS11. works in the special 8 housing unit and the operations unit. is 9 sometimes assigned to the SR2. What is the 10 SR2? 11 MR. : It's a relief post. I wasn't 12 At the time of all this, Epstein, I was not 13 the special housing unit lieutenant. So I want 14 to make sure I was clear on that. 15 MR. : But you were a special 16 housing unit lieutenant in the past? 17 MR. : Yes, sir. 18 MR. : Okay. Great. You'll be 19 perfect to answer some of these questions then. 20 But the SR2. I'm sorry. What is that? 21 MR. : It's like a relief post. Sc 22 you kind of work some day-watch shifts, some 23 evening watch shifts, and morning watch shifts. 24 So it's like a variable change post. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : They're a (Indiscernible 2 *00:06:26) supervisor. 3 MR. : And were working in both 4 activities and operations there. 5 MR. : Yes, dir. 6 MR. : Primary responsibilities 7 while working in operations include logging the 8 movements of the building and managing overtime 9 issues. also does rounds in the SHU and 10 goes down range to address any issues that 11 inmates have. So when you say you do rounds in 12 the SHU, would you actually conduct rounds with 13 the inmates? Or are you saying you would visit 14 the SHU and do a round with your staff members? 15 MR. : I'm sorry. Say - repeat the 16 question one more time? I'm sorry. 17 MR. : So when this say that 18 also does rounds in the SHU, does that 19 mean when you would visit the SHU would you 20 actually do rounds with the other correctional 21 officers that were in the SHU? So you would do 22 rounds with the inmates? 23 MR. : Yes, sir. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Rounds with staff, make sure EFTA00113918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 there's any issues. Do rounds with the inmates 2 if they have any issues. And then I depart. 3 MR. : Great. 4 MR. : And then I go to the other 5 units as well and do the same thing with 6 officers in the housing units. 7 MR. : Perfect. It says: 8 stated that the assigned operations lieutenant 9 will visit the SHU approximately once a day and 10 sign the signature sheet. The lieutenant 11 brings the signature sheet to the captain to 12 sign and file the sheet into the logbook. So 13 when you would visit the SHU, as an operations 14 lieutenant, would you conduct rounds with the 15 inmates at that time? 16 MR. : It also depends on the 17 workload. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : For instance, let's say 20 there's a use of force or some other disruptive 21 inmate you're dealing with. You know as 22 operations lieutenant, you've got to address, 23 and that's why you have the activities 24 lieutenant. And if you can't make it there in 25 time, or if he can't address that, you'll kind EFTA00113919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 of cover up and go through the rounds for the 2 operations lieutenant. 3 MR. : When the Epstein matter 4 occurred on August 10, 2019, prior to that 5 time, was there ever a requirement that 6 lieutenants had to conduct one round in the SHU 7 with the inmates per shift? 8 MR. : Yeah, that was policy. That 9 wasn't necessarily operations or activities. A 10 lieutenant had - was obligated to go there and 11 make rounds. Of course, like I said, working 12 in various institutions, MCC New York is a very 13 unique beast because it's constant movement 14 going on. Constant issues. But like I said, 15 depending on the workload or situation, there's 16 not an issue they're dealing with, yes. You 17 have to go there at least once a shift. 18 MR. : Now just so I want to be 19 clear on this. Is it just go there to check in 20 or is it go there to actually -? 21 MR. : No. Not just to go in there, 22 sign the books, and go. Of course just make 23 sure the staff's okay. Do your rounds down 24 range. Make sure there's any issues - inmate 25 issues - you log them down. See if you can try EFTA00113920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to answer them. And go through the other 2 housing units and do the same thing. 3 MR. : Okay. So it was - but at 4 that time, in August 2019, prior to Epstein 5 being found dead, was there a requirement that 6 every shift that either the operations or the 7 activities lieutenant conduct round -- 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : -- in the SHU with the 10 inmates? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Good to know. 13 Alright. is not involved with the count 14 in the SHU during the week unless there is an 15 unscheduled emergency count. ' typical 16 involvement with the count is limited to making 17 sure rounds have been completed. The only 18 shift scheduled in the SHU for a lieutenant is 19 the 6:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m. shift. There is 20 no nighttime SHU lieutenant scheduled at MCC. 21 has worked at other BOP facilities where 22 a nighttime lieutenant is scheduled. All BOP 23 employees are required to participate in an 24 annual refresher training. The last training 25 was held at in New York, New EFTA00113921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 York. There is also quarterly training for new 2 correctional officers assigned to the SHU and 3 others who are mandated to attend. The 4 training discusses the signs of suicide and 5 what an employee should do if an inmate 6 attempts or successfully commits suicide. The 7 details of these trainings are found in post 8 orders which are displayed at the MCC. Now for 9 people that would do overtime shifts not 10 normally be assigned to the SHU, would they 11 have received guidance or training on how 12 they're supposed to operate when they're in the 13 SHU? 14 MR. : Usually - well you're saying 15 if the training it's worked as a special 16 housing officer. Correct? 17 MR. : Correct. So I know like, 18 for instance, in a special housing officer, 19 they do quarterly SHU training. Right? 20 MR. : Yes, sir. So whoever - 21 whoever - okay so let's say you've got your 22 regular SHU officers there. So before the SHU, 23 they take over that SHU, before the quarter 24 begins, they have quarterly SHU training with 25 that staff. That's where a lot of the rules EFTA00113922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that are implemented in special housing 2 reviewed, and pretty much all your policy in 3 special housing is reviewed before that - you 4 take over that shift for that quarter. Now for 5 other officers that just do their overtime, and 6 stuff like that, it's the annual refresher 7 training that you get once a year. 8 MR. : Okay. So at that once a 9 year training though, do you get - was that 10 sufficient in order to know the rules and 11 policies and regulations for when they did work 12 in the SHU? 13 MR. : Uh, technically yes. Yes. 14 They're - the - it covers everything - special 15 housing, the rules, and regulations and how 16 movement is in special housing. My opinion, 17 coming from different institutions, is that 18 it's always a lot of stuff going on in special 19 housing because you have the (Indiscernible 20 *00:12:00) or the ADX. I believe you should 21 get some more training. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : That's just my opinion. 24 MR. : Fair enough. Alright. 25 So had not heard about Epstein until he EFTA00113923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 arrived at the MCC as an inmate. was not 2 working at the time of Epstein's attempted 3 suicide and was told about the incident 4 afterwards. Standard practice at MCC is that 5 if an inmate is placed on suicide watch, a 6 cellmate will be placed with that inmate. The 7 psychology unit gives correctional officers a 8 hotlist which lists the names of any inmates 9 who are on suicide watch and require a 10 cellmate. So if some of the -. If the 11 officers that are working in the SHU knew that 12 Epstein had tried to commit suicide previously, 13 should have they known that he needed a 14 cellmate at all times? 15 MR. : Yes, sir. 16 MR. : Alright. And is that 17 regardless if that was their quarterly bidded 18 post versus like someone -. 19 MR. : Yeah because in special 20 housing, you have to house the (Indiscernible 21 *00:12:59) the officers' stations or right 22 behind it. Or the one at MCC New York and any 23 other institution, it's right there at the 24 officer's stations. So you have the list, 25 pictures, and that's the hotlist. So anybody EFTA00113924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 that's at suicide risk has to have an inmate. 2 And yes. They should have. 3 MR. : Okay. It says: Epstein 4 was placed on suicide watch, was brought 5 upstairs to the SHU, and discussions about who 6 Epstein's cellmate would be. was not 7 present at any of those meetings. Once Reyes 8 was selected to be Epstein's cellmate, 9 spoke with Epstein and Reyes about it. And 10 neither inmate had an issue with it. 11 physically placed Reyes into Epstein's cell. 12 Oh, so you were the lieutenant at the time? 13 MR. : Yes. I was the operations 14 when they cleared that specific inmate to be 15 with Epstein. And I put him up there. Put him 16 in the first cell. And when I left, he was 17 still - that was his cellmate. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : It says: Then there is an 20 agent note and says at this point in the 21 interview, was shown a printed email from 22 AUSA stated he recalled 23 receiving an email which was prior to assigning 24 Reyes to be Epstein's cellmate. Now I'm 25 assuming that email was the one from July 30th EFTA00113925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 from psychology saying that Epstein was 2 required to have a cellmate. Do you recall? 3 MR. : Yeah. Briefly. Yes, sir. I 4 know we had a lot of emails about Epstein. And 5 then that one I know he was required to have 6 that. And then they specified which inmate was 7 going to be his. 8 MR. : Okay. It says: On 9 8/9/19, so on August 9, 2019, was 10 assigned as the operations lieutenant on the 11 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. shift, which is actually 12 worked 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Correctional 13 officers during the morning watch shift knew 14 that Epstein and Reyes were to be kept in the 15 same cell. Reyes was removed from Epstein's 16 cell during the shift for a court appearance 17 and was released. A new cellmate was not 18 immediately placed into Epstein's cell. 19 was aware of Epstein being alone and was 20 waiting to see what inmate would be assigned as 21 Epstein new cellmate. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. -: believed that the 24 captain or psychology unit will make this 25 assignment. So did you have any conversations EFTA00113926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with anybody -? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : No? 4 MR. : No. That was - would be -. 5 No, that's a little bit different of how it was 6 said. 7 MR. : So let me -. Here, I'll 8 read the next sentence and you can tell me if 9 this is correct. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : It says: did not 12 tell any members of the relieving shift or 13 captain Darden that Reyes has been released 14 from MCC or that Epstein was currently without 15 a cellmate. did not work on 8/10/2019 16 and heard about Epstein's death in the news. 17 MR. : No. So this is exactly how it 18 went down. So with everything else, 100,000 19 things that was going on in that building, 20 usually when people go to court, we don't know 21 if they come back or not. There's nothing 22 specified okay, this person comes back. 23 Sometimes they do go to court, they post bail, 24 whatever the case may be, they get transferred. 25 We don't know until later on that day or after EFTA00113927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 the shift. But that's - when I heard that, 2 it's kind of weird how they stated that because 3 at no point do we kind of have an idea that, oh 4 right now this inmate is not coming back. 5 Because especially in the detention center, a 6 lot of these guys do come back. Some of these 7 guys come late. Some of these guys come like 8 7:00, 8:00 on the next shift. It all depends. 9 So that's why I don't know with that statement 10 - I don't agree with that tone. 11 MR. : So did you know that 12 Epstein's cellmate Reyes was not coming back? 13 MR. : No. I did not know. 14 MR. : Oh you did not know. 15 Alright. Because yeah, I mean. 16 MR. : Yeah. I did not. 17 MR. : So I know the institution 18 was called at 1:50 advising that he was not 19 coming back. 20 MR. : See I didn't know that, sir. 21 MR. : You did not. Alright. 22 So you're saying how they wrote this is 23 actually not correct. 24 MR. : Yeah. Not correct. I did not 25 know that. EFTA00113928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : Okay. Who - should have 2 you known it if you were worked until 2:00 p.m. 3 and then they called at 1:50? Should someone 4 have advised you? 5 MR. : Either me or the oncoming 6 lieutenant. So because when we do the 7 lieutenant exchange, we go in (Indiscernible 8 *00:17:22) all the building, and like I said, 9 any other issues that we're dealing with. 10 Somebody doesn't want to return to their cell 11 or inmate fight or whatever the case may be. 12 There's a lot of stuff going on. That's why I 13 tried to tell the individuals during that first 14 interview. During the day, it's not like okay 15 yeah this person goes here. It's kumbaya all 16 day. It's fast moving all the time. So yes. 17 So some things do get slipped through the 18 cracks? Yes. Do all of them? No. But at the 19 time with that, I was not - to my knowledge at 20 that time - that I knew that he was coming 21 back. 22 MR. : Alright. And that's what 23 I was going to ask you. Are you positive that 24 you didn't - you were not informed that he had 25 left? EFTA00113929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Sir, to tell you the truth. 2 Like me right now even thinking back then. I 3 was not sure. I'm not sure. I was not aware 4 if he wasn't gone. I don't remember getting 5 any time of notification saying he was not 6 coming back. 7 MR. : So you don't recall is 8 what you're saying? 9 MR. : Yeah. I don't recall. I did 10 not get any type of correspondence saying that 11 that inmate was not coming back at 1:54 or 12 whatever the time that you stated. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That -. 15 MR. : Yeah, I think it was at 16 1:50. So when they call over to say there's 17 somebody is not coming back. Who do they call? 18 MR. : They usually it's the 19 operations lieutenant or if they're might be 20 R&D. And R&D lets us know that this inmate's 21 not coming back. I never got any type of 22 notification from R&D or the captain himself. 23 Honestly, sir. And being with the inmate being 24 so high profile, usually a person like that 25 will come from our next-step-leadership which EFTA00113930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 would be the captain. I never received any 2 correspondence from him. 3 MR. : No, and I'm not talking 4 about Epstein. I'm talking about Reyes. Was 5 Reyes also high profile? 6 MR. : No, I'm just saying then that 7 he was in the same vicinity. If they - because 8 they made a big issue to make sure that's his 9 cellmate. Because I remember a couple of times 10 with the correspondence I got from him that 11 this is the inmate that he needs to be with 12 him. And make it happen. Put him in a cell 13 with him and that. So I would assume being 14 that he is kind of tied to Epstein for housing 15 purposes, and they knew that he was not coming 16 back, I should at least have got some type of 17 notification from the captain which I didn't at 18 that time. That I do know. 19 MR. : Alright. So I thought 20 you were saying that if they knew that he 21 wasn't coming back, they would call the 22 operations lieutenant. Were you saying? 23 MR. : Well either R&D will know 24 Receiving District - because they deal a lot 25 with the court cases and they'll disseminate it EFTA00113931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 from operations. Or if they check. Because 2 sometimes, honestly, sir, if they call the 3 operations lieutenant, sometimes we're not in 4 that office. Or we're moving around and about 5 whatever the case may be. It all depends on 6 the day. So majority of the time, it will come 7 from R&D or if somebody does notify us, like 8 you said, more than likely be the lieutenant's 9 office or R&D or - for that situation - I would 10 think the higher-ups would know and let us 11 know. 12 MR. : Alright. Because I'm 13 looking at the notes now from eh FBI. And it 14 says the same thing. New cellmate wasn't 15 placed. was waiting to see who new 16 cellmate would be. And it would be decided by 17 the captain or psychology who would make that 18 decision. So do you remember talking to them 19 about that? 20 MR. : Honestly sir, no. I don't -. 21 MR. : And it said that Epstein 22 couldn't have just been placed with anyone. 23 MR. : That is for sure. That he was 24 not going to be placed with just anyone. 25 MR. : That is true? Is that EFTA00113932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 what you said? 2 MR. : Yeah. That - they didn't want 3 no - any other cellmate to be with him other 4 than Reyes. 5 MR. : Um, right. Okay. 6 Alright. I'll just keep going on. 7 explained that correctional officers travel 8 between the 9th floor and the 10th floor of the 9 MCC via staircase. Now are you talking about 10 the MCC in general or are you talking about in 11 the SHU? 12 MR. : I'm - you mean the staircase 13 in SHU? 14 MR. : I don't know. The way 15 that that sentence says is explained that 16 correctional officers travel between the 9th 17 floor and 10th floor -. 18 MR. : Oh, that's okay. So the 9th 19 floor is the special housing. Now the 20 staircase to go to the 10th floor which is the 21 high-profile inmates go. 22 MR. : Like 10 South. Right? 23 MR. : 10 South. Yeah. That's the 24 staircase that they're -. 25 MR. : Okay. So in the general EFTA00113933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 SHU area is that was explaining how you get 2 from the SHU up to 10 South. 3 MR. : Exactly. 4 MR. : Okay. Correctional 5 officers can take an elevator from the 9th 6 floor to the 11th floor, but it does not stop 7 on the 10th floor. The 10th floor is not a 8 full floor and is similar to an attic. There 9 are bathrooms for use of correctional officers 10 on the 9th and 10th floor. Female correctional 11 officers mostly use the 10th floor bathroom 12 because it's more comfortable and private. 13 Correctional officers pick up the house phone 14 and have the control unit open the doors for 15 them to access the bathroom and to complete 16 their rounds. also explained that 17 overtime during the nighttime shift for 18 correctional officers in the SHU is not often 19 sought after. This is because it requires 20 officers to be mobile and to prepare the 21 paperwork for the morning shift. Alright. So 22 you already talked about how -. So during the 23 August 9th and 10th. Every operations 24 lieutenant or activities lieutenant should have 25 conducted a round within the SHU and like EFTA00113934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 witnessed or participated in either a round or 2 a count? 3 MR. : Yes. Uh, yes. 4 MR. : Do you know if anybody 5 did during your shift? Either yourself or the 6 activities lieutenant. 7 MR. : My shift it would have either 8 been -. I don't remember going to the SHU. I 9 know I was dealing with a lot of stuff that 10 day. Um. More than likely, if I can't do it, 11 it was my activities lieutenant that um, that 12 would knock that out. 13 MR. : You would have asked your 14 activities lieutenant? Is that what you said? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Alright. 17 MR. : Well if he knows I'm busy, or 18 I'm dealing with something during the day, 19 he'll go up there and do the rounds in SHU. 20 MR. : Alright. And it looks 21 like that would have been . Are you 22 familiar with 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you -. I mean 25 I know we're talking about a long time ago but EFTA00113935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 being that this was such a big incident. Do 2 you know - do you recall if you asked him to do 3 it? 4 MR. : Sir, I would be lying if I 5 said I did remember. I don't. 6 MR. : No, no worries. So then 7 the person that relieved you was as the 8 operations lieutenant and then relieved 9 . So during their shift, one of them 10 should have also witnessed a round or a count 11 in the SHU? 12 MR. : Yes, sir. 13 MR. : Okay. And are you 14 positive that was policy at that time? 15 MR. : At that time, a lieutenant has 16 to at least go to SHU to make rounds ever 17 shift. 18 MR. : Right. And with the 19 inmates, not just to stop by. 20 MR. : Yes. Not just hey, how you 21 doing. It's actually go down range and do your 22 rounds in range. 23 MR. : Alright. And then after 24 that, the nighttime shift it would have been. 25 You know I guess for officers it would have EFTA00113936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. That was and it actually says the activities 3 lieutenant -. Oh no, activities lieutenant 4 came on at 6:00. It was just the operations 5 lieutenant. So would have she 6 been required to do the same during the same 7 with the SHU - in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yes, sir. Every lieutenant 9 should (Indiscernible *00:25:13). Everybody 10 got to show their face at least once a shift. 11 And now when I say show your face, you have to 12 with the officers and with the inmates go down 13 range. 14 MR. : Okay. So 15 even though it was from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 16 a.m., should have also gone downrange -- 17 MR. : Yep. 18 MR. : -- and done a round with 19 the inmates? 20 MR. : Yes. Because that would have 21 covered that morning watch shift. 22 MR. : Alright. Great. And 23 being that you were the lieutenant, you know 24 the SHU lieutenant, you know that this is 25 policy. Correct? EFTA00113937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes, sir. 2 MR. : Alright. Great. And 3 it's not something that was implemented after 4 this fact? It was actually 5 MR. : No, it was That's in every 6 SHU around the Bureau. 7 MR. : Okay. Great. Now so if 8 you were not informed about Reyes being removed 9 from the institution. What should have 10 happened and who should have taken - or who 11 should have ensured that a new cellmate was 12 assigned to Epstein? 13 MR. : Okay. So. Again. Repeat the 14 question one more time. I just want to make 15 sure I grasp what you're asking. 16 MR. : So first of all I guess I 17 should ask do you recall on that day were you 18 gone by 2:00 p.m.? 19 MR. : Uh, if not 2:00 p.m., usually 20 we try to relieve each other 15 minutes early 21 whatever. Give a little exchange and we go. 22 Usually I'll probably be out right at 2:00 p.m. 23 MR. : MR. LARGENT: So by 2:00 24 p.m. you would have bene gone? 25 MR. : Yes, sir. EFTA00113938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Alright. So if this 2 information comes in and again, you said 3 usually, typically, directly, they call and 4 they usually typically call the operations 5 lieutenant and provide this information that 6 this person is not coming back? 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:26:56) I'm 8 going to say 80% of the time, R&D would know. 9 Okay, this inmate, because they've got the 10 whole transfer of inmates, where they're going, 11 and what's going on. So if they knew that one 12 was on the court list or whatever was not 13 coming back, you know, they usually would know. 14 Or sometimes, you know, they'll notify us by 15 calling the lieutenant's office. That's what I 16 meant by that. 17 MR. : Okay. So typically, R&D 18 would call the ops lieutenant, the ops 19 lieutenant would contact the lieutenant's 20 office, and they would notify the SHU? Is that 21 how it would work? 22 MR. : Yeah. And then without fail, 23 the such-and-such inmate needs to have - he's 24 not coming -. Well especially with that one. 25 He needs a cellmate because his cellie is not EFTA00113939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 coming back. And the whole issue of him 2 getting that special cellmate would definitely 3 be a - how do I put it. Somewhere not that in 4 suicide watch and we couldn't get involved. 5 MR. : I'm sorry, I couldn't 6 hear. What was the last thing you were saying? 7 MR. : So it's, you know, especially 8 with that, not any inmate could go with him. 9 They should have put him on suicide watch until 10 they confirmed which would be his next 11 cellmate. Because I know not everybody could 12 have gone with him. So that's why that 13 information should have disseminated a lot 14 quicker. Because you know, they couldn't find. 15 It was a specific inmate to get with him which 16 was Reyes. Now to get another one, they would 17 have another backup inmate to go with him if 18 that person didn't come back. So I would have 19 thought they should have put him at least in 20 suicide watch so they can kind of figure out 21 who they were going to stick with him being 22 that he couldn't be by himself. 23 MR. : Okay. Now do the ops 24 lieutenant and the activities lieutenant are 25 their shifts like the same? Would have EFTA00113940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 also left at about 2:00 p.m.? 2 MR. : Uh, see that time, that's why 3 I'm kind of confused. At that time, you just 4 reminded me. Because I knew we went 5 Usually the - typically shift for operations is 6 eight hours. And I know at one time being with 7 the shortage and everything, they started 8 flipping it to 12-hour shifts. So I'm trying 9 to remember what time came in because if 10 he -. 11 MR. : Well underneath his -. 12 So it's difficult because you guys aren't all 13 coming in at the times that is listed on the 14 actual roster. Sounds like you're all two 15 hours beforehand. Like your shift says 8:00 to 16 1600. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : But it sounds like you're 19 actually coming in at 6:00 a.m. and leaving at 20 2:00 p.m. Is that correct? 21 MR. : Yeah. That was the stuff they 22 were letting us do because of traffic 23 especially in detention centers. They let the 24 lieutenants come in and work the 6:00 to 2:00 25 instead of uh, 8:00 to 4:00 trying to EFTA00113941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 disseminate from you know the traffic and the 2 commute and stuff like that. 3 MR. : No as the 4 activities lieutenant, it shows that he was in 5 there from 6:00 to 2:00. 6 MR. : But again, he would have been 7 leaving exactly with me. Because that's why in 8 9 MR. : Alright. 10 MR. : -- activities they work 6:00 11 to 2:00, 2:00 to 10:00. 12 MR. : Alright. And so it was 13 only the ops lieutenants that were the two 14 hours before the activities lieutenants were 15 actually whatever it says on the schedule? 16 MR. : Yes. That was their official 17 post - 6:00 to 2:00. 18 MR. : Alright. So this call 19 comes in at 1:50 according to the official 20 records. So it's right on the cusp of either 21 you guys leaving or the next crew coming in. 22 MR. : Yes, sir. 23 MR. : And then it just -. So 24 who was the guy who relieved you, he 25 said he never knew about it. No one ever EFTA00113942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 informed him. MR. MR. Yeah. : And that's the weird part is that your interview report says that you did. My only question for you was going to be like who informed you and did you really that information to anyone else? But -. MR. : No. I don't recall saying that I knew. I knew he left. I didn't knew that he was gone. You know because we have a as an operations lieutenant, you have a list of who is going to court. So I knew he was leaving, I didn't know he was not coming back. MR. : Oh. MR. : Maybe that's where they misconstrued what I was trying to say. Yeah, knew he was leaving. But I didn't know he was not coming back. MR. : So do you know why they would have wrote -. And this is again in both the report as well as in their handwritten notes, was waiting to see who the new cellmate would be. It would be decided by the captain or psychology to make that decision." MR. I'm not sure, sir. EFTA00113943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MR. : No? So you didn't have a 2 conversation with the captain or psychology 3 about like hey, I'm waiting on you to make that 4 decision? 5 MR. : Sir, I have to be honest. I 6 don't' remember talking to the captain about 7 that. 8 MR. : Right. Yeah-yeah-yeah. 9 And that's what it says and then later in the 10 interview report that's where it says. And 11 that's the reason why we're talking is just to 12 figure out -- 13 MR. : Yeah, I -- 14 MR. : -- where the -- 15 MR. : -- to be honest -- 16 MR. he -. 17 MR. : I don't remember. I don't 18 know what this - I don't remember talking to 19 the captain about him waiting for a cellmate. 20 So that's pretty much saying okay I knew he was 21 not coming back, I'm just waiting for the 22 guidance from the captain. Which I don't 23 remember having a conversation with. 24 MR. : No-no. And that's what 25 it says. It says, " did not tell any EFTA00113944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 members of the relieving shift or captain 2 Darden that Reyes had been released from MCC or 3 that Epstein was currently without a cellmate. 4 did not work on 8/10 and heard about 5 Epstein's death on the news." So yeah, 6 obviously the way that it reads, it looks like 7 - you know at least it says, the information 8 was provided to you and then you didn't do 9 anything with it. So that's why 10 MR. : Yeah-yeah. 11 MR. : -- we're talking to you. 12 MR. : That's why like when you're 13 explaining it, I'm like wow, man, that's not 14 how it went down. I knew he was leaving, but I 15 didn't know he was not coming back. I never -. 16 I don't recall ever having that conversation 17 with the captain well yeah, I'm waiting for you 18 to let me know who you want me to put in there. 19 MR. : Okay. And would it have 20 anything to do with like you getting a call as 21 you were running out the door or anything like 22 that? Or like telling hey make sure 23 this is handled? Or something? 24 MR. : No, sir. You - for myself. 25 Just wait. I know you don't know me from a can EFTA00113945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in the wall. But when I worked special 2 housing, there was been many nights - many, 3 many nights that I stayed there 4 or 5 hours 4 after just to make sure everything is done. So 5 me getting call like hey, take care of that. 6 No. 7 MR. : Okay. What other 8 questions should we cover with him there 9 10 MR. : Hey Mr. , when you made 11 your rounds to the SHU, do you recall seeing 12 any kind of paperwork on the desk saying that 13 Epstein needed a cellmate? Like a large piece 14 of paper or something? 15 MR. : I don't recall, sir. 16 MR. : But you said that there 17 was a hotlist that he was on. 18 MR. : Yeah, oh yeah, the hotlist. 19 The hotlist. I thought what -. 20 MR. : No-no-no. He's asking 21 you specifically. So the information we have is 22 that they - on the officer in charge the OIC's 23 desk - there was like a colored paper that said 24 Epstein is required to have a cellmate. And 25 that's what he's asking. EFTA00113946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 MR. : I think that was a list the 2 officers -. I guess whatever officer was there 3 left a note for the oncoming saying that he 4 needed a cellmate. So I don't know after 5 left if that got disseminated. I'm not sure. 6 I know that yellow note - sticky pad or 7 whatever - that they said they wrote. That was 8 from the officers that was there to the 9 oncoming officers that were coming on. 10 MR. : Okay. So if the SHU 11 officers knew that he was supposed to have a 12 cellmate. Once they found out that Reyes 13 wasn't coming back, what should have they done? 14 MR. : With the officers should have 15 done first of all, what they should have done 16 was notify the oncoming - whoever the on-shift 17 lieutenant was saying that this inmate doesn't 18 have a cellie. Who do you want me to put in 19 there? So from here, that's when the shift 20 lieutenant should have called and notified the 21 captain and say hey we can't just put anybody 22 with him. Who do you want us to put him? You 23 want to put him on suicide watch or what until 24 we kind of figure out who we're going to put 25 int here with him. That's what should have EFTA00113947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 happened. 2 MR. : Okay. So once they 3 realized it, they should have -. Now should 4 have that happened with every new shift. If 5 the people are relieved on the morning watch to 6 the night watch - or day watch to night watch, 7 night watch knows that he's supposed to have a 8 cellmate, should have they again contacted the 9 ops lieutenant? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : And then same thing for 12 the morning watch? From the -? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. So every shift 15 should have again -. 16 MR. : Yeah. Somebody should have 17 called. Somebody should have called. 18 MR. : Okay. And no one called 19 -? As far as you know, no one called you and 20 contacted you and let you know that Reyes was 21 not coming back? 22 MR. : Sir, I don't recall anybody 23 having that conversation. I knew he was 24 leaving from the outgoing stuff going on. I 25 don't recall anybody calling me and saying he's EFTA00113948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 not coming back. And me waiting for the 2 captain to let me know who I should put on him. 3 Because if it was like that, the captain should 4 - if he was the man, so he should have known. 5 So I don't ever recall -. 6 MR. : But like you said, the 7 R&D would have called the ops lieutenant not 8 the captain. Correct? Wouldn't it be the ops 9 lieutenant's job to call the captain? 10 MR. : Exactly. And that's why he -. 11 By you saying that I was waiting for the call 12 from the captain, means I knew that and I was 13 waiting for the captain to give me more 14 correspondence on who he wanted me to put on. 15 MR. : Yeah, no. And we can 16 forget about that part. The part I'm asking 17 about is do you know if anyone ever told you 18 that Reyes wasn't coming back? 19 MR. : Sir, I don't recall anybody 20 telling me he was not coming back. But that': 21 I knew he was leaving. I never received any 22 correspondence saying he was not coming back. 23 I never got a call or nothing like that. 24 MR. : And would it be a call 25 typically or an email? Or how is that usually EFTA00113949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 done? 2 MR. : Call. It can be an email as 3 well. But majority of the time it will be a 4 call. 5 MR. : Okay. And you don't 6 recall receiving a call? 7 MR. : No, sir. 8 MR. : And you don't recall 9 telling the FBI and the OIG back at you know in 10 let me see what date it says that. It was in 11 August 2019. You don't remember telling them 12 that? 13 MR. : I'm not saying I don't 14 remember unless I misconstrued how I said - how 15 I was trying to put it out there. Kind of like 16 when I explained it to you, that's kind of like 17 how it's was - how it was probably trying to 18 mean at the time. Or -. 19 MR. : Alright. So are you 20 thinking like what you -? Are you thinking 21 what you told them was something more along the 22 lines of I knew that he left to go to court but 23 I didn't know he wasn't coming back to the 24 institution? 25 MR. : There you go. EFTA00113950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : Alright. And then do you 2 know how they would have -? Do you remember at 3 all if you could try to place yourself back 4 into there, where they would have come up with 5 the shole you're waiting on a new cellmate to 6 be assigned? 7 MR. : Sir, I don't - I'll be honest. 8 I'm not sure. 9 MR. : Yeah-yeah. No worries. 10 I'm just going to - 11 MR. : I'm trying to go through all 12 these years. How many years past are we - one 13 or two? I'm just trying to remember 14 everything. It's just, you know 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : I don't want to give you a 17 false thing that says, yeah that's what I said 18 if I really don't - it's. It's kind of vague 19 for me. 20 MR. : Okay. What else do we 21 want to ask him while we've got him on the 22 phone? Since he especially since he was the 23 lieutenant in the SHU? 24 MR. : Mr. , you wouldn't 25 happen to recall who the officer was in the R&D EFTA00113951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that day. Right? 2 MR. : No, sir. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : In that building during the 5 day, like prior to Epstein, that building every 6 day it's just always moving. Like we have 30 7 inmates going to court every day. So not 8 including the fight that's going on down - 9 going on in the first or second floor - I mean, 10 the fifth and seventh floor, we have other 11 inmates going on with this, stuff with the 12 officers, the inmates. There's always 13 something going on. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : So that's what I was trying to 16 explain to the people that interviewed me the 17 first time. It's a lot of stuff - a lot of lot 18 of stuff going on. I'm not saying it's an 19 excuse or nothing like that, but sometimes the 20 - there's just the motion of stuff going on in 21 that building. You know? 22 MR. : During your visits to the 23 SHU, did you ever tell anybody that Epstein was 24 required to have a cellmate? Just in general? 25 MR. : Yes. That when I first put EFTA00113952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 him in there, my - he was - he's going to have 2 this inmate. This is his inmate and he's 3 supposed to have an inmate. 4 MR. : And when you say you 5 first put him in there, is that after he came 6 off of suicide watch you're referring to? 7 MR. : Yes. Yes. The first time 8 when they found Reyes and they specified this 9 is going to be the inmate that's going to be 10 with him. 11 MR. : Okay. And did you note 12 though not only is this going to be his inmate, 13 the inmate that's going to be his cellmate, but 14 was it ever discussed that at all times he 15 needs a cellmate? 16 MR. : Every inmate that's on suicide 17 watch needs a cellmate. That was the norm. 18 MR. : But did you ever -? 19 guess what I'm asking is like so if these 20 people say, hey I didn't know that. What I'm 21 asking is like, do you remember ever saying 22 that to them? That hey, guys, he's on suicide 23 watch. He needs a cellmate. Or is that 24 conducted in training? Or how -? If they 25 claim that they didn't know that how to what EFTA00113953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 can we say back to them and say you should have 2 known that based upon - this person told you or 3 it was conducted in training? Or how -? 4 MR. : During SHU training, you have 5 a block of that SHU training is with the 6 psychologist. And she goes over all the 7 suicide risks and once he comes off the suicide 8 watch, she always states and goes in depth with 9 the suicide part of the SHU training. And 10 inmate needs a cellmate coming off suicide 11 watch regardless if it's a felonious accusation 12 or not because he's going to get a cellmate. 13 MR. : Okay. Now is that the 14 SHU training that's the quarterly training 15 you're referring to. 16 MR. : Both. The quarterly training 17 and the annual training refresher course. 18 MR. : So that's also addressed 19 during the annual training? 20 MR. : Yes, sir. 21 MR. : Okay. Great to know. Do 22 you recall having any conversations with people 23 just though and maybe not even in the SHU, just 24 in general, with regard to other lieutenants 25 about the fact that Epstein needs a cellmate at EFTA00113954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 all times? 2 MR. : I don't recall, sir. 3 MR. : You don't recall. 4 Alright. Do you have any reason to believe 5 that Epstein's death wasn't due to suicide? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : No? There was no foul 8 play involved. 9 MR. : No. No foul play. It's just 10 - people just didn't do their job. That's what 11 it boils down to. 12 MR. : And speaking of not doing 13 their job, are you aware that people in the SHU 14 were not conducting rounds and counts? 15 MR. : I was not aware of people not 16 doing their rounds and counts. I was assuming 17 that everybody was doing their job like they're 18 supposed to do. Do their rounds, do their 19 counts, to make sure whatever you put on paper 20 is what you're supposed to be putting on paper. 21 MR. : Oh, okay. And on your 22 shift, it says the ops lieutenant or activities 23 lieutenant, would you regularly go to the SHU 24 and conduct those rounds and counts with the 25 inmates? EFTA00113955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : When I was a shift lieutenant? 2 Yes. If and I'm not saying -. 3 MR. : I mean not the SHU 4 lieutenant. When you were acting as the ops 5 lieutenant or the activities -. 6 MR. : As an ops lieutenant. If I 7 was busy, if I did do a use of force and I'm 8 doing an actual (Indiscernible *00:42:20), it's 9 either myself or my activities lieutenant. 10 Somebody on my shift was up there to do their 11 rounds. 12 MR. : Okay. And in your 13 opinion, who then with the limited information 14 that we just gave you, the fact that you know 15 they're getting the institution is getting -. 16 Somebody in the institution is getting a call 17 at 1:50 saying that he's not coming back. 18 Where - how should have this played out? Who 19 kind of dropped the ball there in your opinion? 20 MR. : Um. 21 MR. : Because it's documented 22 that the institution was called at 1:50 saying 23 that he wasn't coming back. 24 MR. : I don't know who dropped the 25 ball. I think everybody dropped the ball. EFTA00113956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 Because if we - let's say we start with R&D. 2 If they didn't specifically speak to somebody 3 or do an email that people don't regularly 4 check - especially at that time. Or the 5 captain, you know, the captain should have 6 known. Regardless, but let's say it passed 7 that first section. When the next shift 8 section comes, you've got to go up there and do 9 your rounds. So right there, Epstein - he's a 10 high profile. He obviously does not have an 11 inmate - suicide risk. That's the second block 12 that missed. The third block hit the morning 13 watch shift. So to point exactly where the 14 ball dropped, I don't - I can't really specify 15 exactly. 16 MR. : Sure. Now I just want to 17 -. I don't know that we really have many more. 18 I just want to remind you though, you are under 19 oath and this is more of an administrative 20 matter right now, but if you know - the lying 21 thing is what could bring it to like a 22 criminal. So I just want to make sure that 23 you're confident with that statement that you 24 did not receive a call or an email saying that 25 Reyes wasn't coming back. EFTA00113957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 MR. : Sir, like I said, I do not 2 recall a phone call. If an email went through, 3 I don't know if I didn't check it or nothing 4 like that. But a call - I don't remember. I 5 don't recall. 6 MR. : Verbal call? Any kind of 7 communication? 8 MR. : No didn't. I don't recall a 9 verbal call of communication or if somebody 10 stopped by my office. Hey, he's not coming 11 back. 12 MR. : And you also don't 13 believe you told the FBI that you received that 14 information? Or the OIG? 15 MR. : Yes. I don't - I'm not 16 saying. I don't I didn't exactly say 17 unless how I worded it came out wrong. 18 MR. : Because obviously this 19 was a big deal. Right? 20 MR. : Yes, sir. 21 MR. : So something like -- 22 MR. : I wouldn't just go and lie and 23 say -. 24 MR. : -- this -. What's that? 25 MR. : I said this is a huge thing so EFTA00113958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 I wouldn't just say hey, I wouldn't lie and say 2 I never got a call. I truly do not recall 3 receiving a phone call of somebody telling me 4 he was not coming back. 5 MR. : And you also are saying 6 that you didn't tell the OIG or the FBI during 7 your interview with also the AUSA. Because 8 we're going to have like you said, four 9 witnesses that were in the room to talk to them 10 to say, hey did he say this? Because he's 11 saying that he didn't. 12 MR. : Sir, I'm trying to refresh my 13 memory. I don't recall saying. If I did say 14 it, then I said it. But I don't recall that 15 happening, sir. 16 MR. : Okay. because like when 17 I was saying about the big event, I'm just 18 saying like obviously Epstein dies. You would 19 think that one, it would stand out in your 20 mind: oh man, I got a call about Reyes not 21 coming back. And then two, you'd remember 22 because hey, I just got interviewed by the FBI, 23 the OIG, and the U.S. Attorney's Office all in 24 the same room at the same time. 25 MR. : Yes, sir. EFTA00113959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 MR. : So and again, being under 2 oath, knowing that if you're lying that could 3 actually bring this from 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : -- an administrative 6 matter where you don't work for the BOP anymore 7 to a potential criminal matter. Are you 8 confident with that statement? 9 MR. : Sir, I don't -. I'm being 10 honest with you. I do not recall stating that. 11 I don't. If I did, then I don't know if I was 12 nervous or -. I don't recall them calling me, 13 sir. I don't. Right now, in June 16 of 2021, 14 I do not recall them calling me and telling me 15 that he was not coming back. 16 MR. : Okay. But as - so we'll 17 go past that. But again, if they had called 18 you, you would have -. Your next course of 19 action would have been to tell the captain. 20 Correct? 21 MR. : Exactly. Tell the captain. 22 MR. : And you didn't do that. 23 Right? And should have - if they did call you 24 - should have you told , your 25 replacement? EFTA00113960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : Yes, sir. 2 MR. : Okay. And obviously you 3 didn't do either of those. Correct? 4 MR. : No, sir. 5 MR. : Okay. Anything else we 6 want to ask? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Alright. This is my cell 9 phone. If for some reason that's - you can 10 recall and your statement change. Please let 11 me know. because again, it's a moment we're 12 talking about administrative stuff for a 13 department you don't work for anymore. So if 14 it -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : -- you know, if you can 17 recall that conversation, if you can recall the 18 interview, if you can recall statements that 19 were made, please. As soon as possible -. 20 MR. : Sir, I - I - I'm - right now 21 I'm being completely honest with you. If I 22 said that, like right now, I don't remember. 23 And I don't know -. We're talking about a year 24 and a half ago. 25 MR. : But that's not something EFTA00113961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 you'd remember. You know with the biggest case 2 in the news and still in the news today. You 3 know what I mean? 4 MR. : Yes, sir, I know. And I truly 5 do not remember them calling me and saying he 6 was not coming back, sir. 7 MR. And again, it doesn't 8 have to be - it can be verbal, call, text, 9 email - any of that. Communication. You don't 10 recall any communication with anyone telling 11 you that Reyes wasn't coming back? 12 MR. : I'm trying to remember an 13 email. I don't remember a call, sir. Right 14 now. I truly don't. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Hey Mr. 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : The next day, when after the 19 incident happened, did you get called on - 20 called into the MCC? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So you weren't present on 23 Saturday then? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00113962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Any follow-ups? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Nothing? 4 MR. : Nothing else I can. 5 MR. : Okay. Well we really 6 appreciate your time. We'll relay this. 7 Obviously this information goes to the highest 8 of levels. So if you do recall, especially in 9 the very near term. Again, please call me back 10 and let me know. Again, you're under oath and 11 we do appreciate your time. And good luck at 12 training. And I hope CBP works out. 13 MR. : Alright. Thank you. 14 MR. : Thank you, sir. You have 15 a good night. It is currently 5:27 p.m. on 16 Wednesday June 16, 2012. This is Senior 17 Special Agent and I am 18 turning off the recorder. 19 EFTA00113963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 represent an accurate transcript of the 4 electronic sound recording of the proceedings 5 before the Department of Justice, Office of the 6 Inspector General in the matter of: 7 8 Interview of 9 10 11 12 13 Transcriber 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113964