EFTA00113967.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 14, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00113967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00113968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 : The recorder is on and 2 it's currently June 14, 2021 at approximately 3 9:37 a.m. 4 : My name is 5 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice Office of the Inspector General New 7 York Field Office. And these are my 8 credentials. I'll show it to you again. 9 : Thank you. 10 : This interview with Federal 11 Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer 12 Lieutenant . Did I get 13 that right? 14 : That's correct. 15 : And she is being interviewed 16 as part of an official U.S. Department of 17 Justice Office of the Inspector General 18 investigation. Today is June 14th and the time 19 is approximately 9:35 a.m. The interview is 20 being conducted on the third-floor telephone 21 monitor room of the Metropolitan Correction 22 Center. Also present is DOJ OIG Senior Special 23 Agent Can you pronounce your last name 24 please? 25 • . And EFTA00113969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 these are my credentials. 2 : Thank you. 3 : And Lieutenant 4 . This interview will be 5 recorded by me, Special Agent 6 Can everyone please identify themselves for the 7 record and spell your last name. To start 8 again, I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 9 10 : Senior Special Agent 11 12 : Lieutenant 13 hyphen 14 15 : This is an official DOJ OIG 16 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey 17 Epstein and everything that surrounds that time 18 period. And you're being asked to voluntarily 19 provide some answers to our questions. Will 20 you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ 21 OIG? 22 : Yes. 23 : I'm going to provide you with 24 a form, DOJ OIG Form 3-226-2. The title of the 25 form is Warnings and Assurances to Employee EFTA00113970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 2 Basis. I'm going to read it out to you first. 3 And then I'll let you review it also. You are 4 being asked to provide information as part of 5 an investigation being conducted by the Office 6 of the Inspector General. This investigation 7 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 8 General Act of 1978 as amended. This 9 investigation pertains to job performance 10 failure and security failure. This is a 11 voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not 12 have to answer any questions. No disciplinary 13 action will be taken against you if you choose 14 not to answer any questions. Any statement you 15 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 16 criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary 17 proceedings, and/or both. Now this is the 18 waiver part. This is for you. I understand 19 the Warnings and Assurances stated above and 20 am willing to make a statement and answer 21 questions. No promises or threats have been 22 made to me and no pressure or coercion of any 23 kind has been used against me. Do you 24 understand? 25 : I understand. EFTA00113971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 : Do you want to move forward 2 with the interview? 3 : Yes. 4 : Please sign your name and 5 print your name. 6 : Let's just say thank you 7 for signing and (Indiscernible *00:03:37). 8 : Thank you for signing the 9 form. I myself am signing the form. I'm going 10 to print my name on it. And Agent is 11 also going to do it. 12 : Thank you SA for 13 signing and dating 6/14/2021 at 9:38 a.m. This 14 is SSA Matulewicz and I am now signing as the 15 witness and printing my name as a witness. 16 : Again, thank you, 17 Before starting the interview, I would like to 18 place you under oath. Lieutenant , can 19 you please raise your right hand? Do you swear 20 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth 21 during this interview? 22 : I do to the best of 23 my knowledge and belief. 24 : Thank you. Please let me 25 know if you do not understand any questions and EFTA00113972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 I will repeat it or try to rephrase it. I ask 2 that you do not try to guess answers. If you 3 don't know, just say you don't know. 4 : Okay. 5 : Thank you. So we'll go 6 through a little bit of your background before 7 we get in. What is your current home address? 8 9 10 11 : Thank you. What is your date 12 of birth? 13 14 : And your Social Security 15 Number. 16 17 : What is your current cell 18 phone number? 19 20 : What is your highest level of 21 education? 22 : I have some college. 23 : What did you do prior to 24 working for the bop? 25 : I was in the EFTA00113973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 military. 2 : Thank you for your service. 3 what branch? 4 : The Navy. 5 : How many years? 6 : Eight. 7 : Alright. And how long have 8 you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 9 : Twenty-six years. 10 : Do you remember when you 11 started? What year you started? 12 : December 11, 1994. 13 : When did you graduate from 14 bop training? It was soon after? 15 : No. I went to 16 Glynco. I know it was probably six months to a 17 year after I started. 18 : Okay. 19 : I don't' remember the 20 exact date. But it was in `95. 21 : '95? 22 : Yeah, it was in 1995. 23 I don't remember the month. 24 : That's fine. When and where 25 was your first office assignment with the BOP? EFTA00113974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : FCI Terminal Island. : And after that, how long were 3 you at Terminal Island for? 4 : For probably around 5 six to seven months. I resigned and took a 6 position in San Diego. 7 : You resigned the position 8 altogether? Or did you get a transfer? 9 : The way that they did 10 it was they had me resign and then they picked 11 me up in San Diego. 12 : Okay. So -. 13 : It's the way that 14 they had me do it. 15 : Was there a break in 16 service? 17 : No. There was no 18 break in service. No. 19 : At Terminal Island, what was 20 your position? 21 : I was a correctional 22 officer. 23 : Okay. And then six months 24 alter you went over to San Diego. 25 : As a correctional EFTA00113975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 officer. 2 : Okay. How long were you 3 there for? 4 : A little over ten 5 years. 6 : Ten years. 7 : Yes. 8 : San Diego. Okay. And what 9 other positions have you held with the BOP? 10 : Correctional 11 Counselor and currently as a lieutenant. 12 : When did you get promoted as 13 a counselor? 14 : In I believe it was - 15 I started in I believe it was July of 2005. 16 : July 2005. 17 : Mm-hmm. 18 : Alright. And then after 19 counselor, you got promoted as -. 20 : A lieutenant. 21 : Lieutenant. And when was 22 that? 23 : That was in 2010. 24 believe it was December 2010 that I 25 transferred. EFTA00113976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Where did you transfer? 2 : FCI Jessup. 3 : Jessant? 4 : Jessup. 5 : Jessup. 6 : Jessup. In Georgia. 7 : Georgia. Okay. In 2010 you 8 transferred and that was a promotion to 9 lieutenant? 10 : Yeah. Well as a 11 counselor I was already a 9. So I just I guess 12 lateral over in a sense to a G59 lieutenant. 13 : Okay. In Jessup. Okay 14 : Right. 15 : And how long were you in 16 Jessup for? 17 : Up until I came here 18 in November of 2014. 19 : November 2014. Have you been 20 here ever since or did you have any transfers? 21 : Not without trying to 22 leave. But yes, I've been here since 2014. 23 Yes. 24 : And were you transferred over 25 as a lieutenant? EFTA00113977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 : I was a lieutenant 2 when I was at Jessup. I went there as a 9. I 3 got my 11 and I just lateraled over here as an 4 11. 5 : And have you been in that 6 position ever since? 7 : That depends on what 8 you mean by ever since. Have I been working in 9 the position or have I held that position? 10 I've held that position. I'm currently still a 11 lieutenant. 12 : Okay. And - bear with me. 13 On August 9th and 10th of 2019, what was your 14 position at the MCC? 15 : I was a lieutenant. 16 : Okay. And what shift did you 17 work on August 9th and 10th? 18 : I believe it was the 19 morning watch shift. 20 : What time does the morning 21 watch shift start? 22 : At that time, we were 23 coming in I believe it was from 10:00 to 6:00. 24 I think that's it. We would relieve them 25 around 10:00 and then we got off - we got EFTA00113978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 relieved at around 6:00. 2 : So you would come in at 10:00 3 a.m. and -? 4 : 10:00 p.m. 5 : 10:00 p.m. And leave at 6:00 6 a.m.? 7 : Well it depends on 8 what time our relief came. But those were the 9 hours that we were working around. Around that 10 time. 11 : Officially that's the 12 schedule? 13 : Officially, our hours 14 were midnight to 8:00. But we would come in 15 and relieve around, you know, between the hours 16 of 10:00 and 6:00. I'll put it like that. 17 : Understood. Okay. And who 18 was your supervisor when you worked at the MCC 19 on August 9th and 10th? Who did you report to? 20 : Then I think it was 21 Captain . Yeah. I think it was Captain 22 We've had so many captains in and out 23 since I've been here, it's hard to keep track 24 sometimes. But yeah, it's Captain 25 : As a lieutenant, where were EFTA00113979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 you assigned during August 9th and 10th where 2 were you assigned? 3 : I was operations 4 lieutenant. 5 : Okay. And as an operations 6 lieutenant, what are your daily duties? 7 : We supervise staff 8 and of course the inmate population. We're 9 responsible for the safety and security of the 10 inmate staff and the institution. We do - we 11 hire overtime. We make runs throughout the 12 institution. And do various other duties. We 13 have checks and balances that we have to do 14 throughout the night. 15 : Okay. As a supervisor, who 16 did you supervise? 17 : I supervised the 18 inmate population and of course the staff that 19 worked for me during that shift. 20 : Do you remember who you r 21 staff was during that shift? 22 : Ooh, all of them? 23 No. No I do not. 24 : Any key people you 25 communicated with? EFTA00113980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 : I mean I communicate 2 with all my staff. 3 : Okay. 4 : There is not one 5 person during the course of a shift that I 6 don't communicate with. Especially when I'm 7 making rounds. And especially during that 8 time, I communicated with them even more 9 because we were below the bottom of the barrel 10 then when it came to staffing. So we really 11 didn't have a lot of -. We didn't have anybody 12 back then. We didn't even have enough staff at 13 that time to even respond to body alarms. Or 14 to do uses or forces. You know. Especially on 15 morning watch. It's already tight. But we was 16 even tighter. So that was one of those nights 17 when as much as -. Well that night as like 18 every other night. As much as possible I tried 19 to talk to staff because staff were doing back- 20 to-back mandations then. And you had staff 21 that were being mandated every day of the week 22 Monday through Sunday. Or Sunday through 23 Saturday as we say in Bureau. Because that's 24 when our week officially starts - Sunday. 25 : When you say mandated what do EFTA00113981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you mean by that? 2 : Mandations are 3 mandatory overtime. That's when you've 4 exhausted your overtime roster. That's the 5 people that sign up for overtime. You've gone 6 through that. There's no one available. Or 7 you get everybody from that list that wants to 8 do overtime or that's available. Then you 9 announce it over the intercom system. That's 10 voluntary. Whoever wants overtime outside of 11 that, you can assign them overtime from there. 12 And then we go to mandatory overtime. That's 13 when we have nothing else left. And we have to 14 utilize the staff that we have currently on 15 duty that's not officially on a double-shift. 16 That's not officially on 16 hours. 17 : So I'm going to ask a couple 18 more questions. How many hours where COs 19 working during that time period? ON average? 20 : Sixteen plus because 21 22 : Per day? 23 : Per day. Yes. 24 Because there were days when staff would be 25 late. There were days when there wasn't EFTA00113982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 anybody even after we mandated everybody on the 2 shift. We didn't have anybody to fill a bunch 3 of posts. We had vacated posts. We had a lot 4 of stuff. It was grueling during that time. 5 And I think we had been doing that for at least 6 a year if not more than a year. 7 : Okay. 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : Did you previously meet with 10 agents regarding the Epstein investigation? 11 : I did. 12 : Do you recall meeting with 13 them on August 14, 2019 in regard to the 14 matter? 15 : I don't remember what 16 day it was. But yes, I recall meeting with 17 them. 18 : I have a summary of the 19 report. What I'm going to do is I'm going to 20 read it out to you. And once I read it out to 21 you, we're going to have some follow-up 22 questions because there's some holes in there 23 that we would like to fill. This is like the 24 summary part. informed that she 25 had been employed with the Bureau of Prisons EFTA00113983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 since December 11, 1994 and promoted to 2 lieutenant around 2010 and has spent her entire 3 career working at the Metropolitan Correctional 4 Facility. During the interview, 5 described the duties -. 6 : Let her correct that. 7 It's not correct. So if you hear something 8 that's not correct -- 9 : Yes, please. 10 : -- just say that that's 11 not correct. 12 : Okay. 13 : If you hear anything, please 14 interrupt me and I'll -. 15 : Okay. I was a 16 lieutenant prior to coming here. I had - as a 17 matter of fact, I was promoted. I was given a 18 temporary position not to exceed a year as a 19 lieutenant back in I think it was 2000, 2001 20 when I was at MCC San Diego in California. And 21 I did - even after that year expired, I 22 remained in the lieutenant's office for the 23 next three or four years after that until I 24 transferred. And so when I came here, when I 25 left there, I went to be a counselor. And then EFTA00113984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 I picked up my lieutenant position again in 2 Jessup. When I came here, I was already a 3 lieutenant. I didn't get promoted to the 4 lieutenant rank coming here. 5 : Okay. 6 : And I haven't spent 7 my whole career here at MCC New York. This is 8 my fifth institution. 9 : Okay. 10 : You said you've been here 11 since 2014. 12 : I've been here since 13 November of 2014. 14 : Okay. I'm going to keep 15 going. If you hear anything wrong, please -. 16 : Okay. 17 : During the interview, 18 described the duties and 19 responsibilities of the position as well as the 20 guards she supervises at the MCC. 21 is assigned to the midnight shift to 8:00 22 a.m. shift, but routinely arrives at 10:00 a.m. 23 : 10:00 p.m. 24 : 10:00 p.m. Sorry, I read 25 that wrong. In addition to describing her EFTA00113985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 administrative duties, described 2 how a count at the MCC works and that the 3 lieutenants are responsible for supervising one 4 count per shift. described that 5 during the count, two guards assigned to the 6 area are to unlock the main gate that separates 7 the cells from the open and common area where 8 the guards are. One guard will walk down range 9 and actually look into each cell and count the 10 number of prisoners inside. Once the count is 11 complete, the guard will return to the gate and 12 exchange places with the guard that was left to 13 secure the gate. That guard will then walk 14 down range and count the number of prisoners in 15 the cells. Upon completion, the guard will 16 return to the gate, secure it from the outside, 17 and record the numbers that came from their 18 count. Those numbers will be compared to the 19 master list of prisoners on record for being 20 assigned to the cells. In addition to the 21 numbers being recorded and compared to the 22 master list or the I-1 sheet, the guards will 23 call in or receive a call from internal and 24 give a verbal record of their count. And 25 internal. EFTA00113986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Wait a minute. What 2 is that again? 3 : I'll repeat that back. In 4 addition to the numbers being recorded and 5 compared to the master list or I-1 sheet, the 6 guards will call in or receive a call from 7 internal. 8 : That's not true. 9 : Go ahead. You can tell me. 10 : When the officers 11 take the count, once they have gone around to 12 each range and both of them had counted each 13 range, before they leave that range, they will 14 compare their count for that particular range. 15 And they would do that in each subsequent 16 range. When they've completed, they call the 17 control center. And they will call in their 18 unit. They will call in the count that they 19 got for that particular unit. They will give 20 them their name, who conducted the count, and 21 at that time, the control center will let them 22 know whether they have a good count or a bad 23 count. Internals position is to pick up those 24 count slips after each unit has counted and 25 place those counts slips out into their 21 EFTA00113987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 respective sally port to be picked up by 2 internal. They do not call. Internal has 3 absolutely nothing to do with their count 4 unless they get a bad count. Sometimes 5 internal, or if we have other extra staff, they 6 will go up there and they will assist them with 7 the count. You know just to see maybe if one 8 of them miscounted or something like that. 9 They would just be like an additional person. 10 A new set of eyes, basically, to assist them 11 with the count. 12 : So before I continue, I had a 13 question for you. Can you say the difference 14 between internal and control? What exactly 15 their duties are? 16 : The internal officer 17 is an officer who mans the elevator. He's 18 responsible for moving inmates around in the 19 institution. He has - they have checks and 20 stuff that they do throughout their shift. But 21 mainly they're responsible for moving inmates 22 up throughout the institution. They respond to 23 body alarms. They pick up the count slips. 24 And they just have general duties throughout 25 the night. They assist with the count EFTA00113988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 throughout the night. But yes, once those 2 officers if they was to get a bad count, they 3 count again. And then if they get another bad 4 count, a subsequent bad count, then internal or 5 whoever else we have available at the time 6 that's not assigned to doing something else 7 will go in and conduct another count. But 8 internal would never just - they never report 9 to internal the results of their count. 10 : I was just going to ask. 11 On this if she's able to identify during her 12 shift who was in internal. 13 : Do you remember who was in 14 internal that night? 15 : That night? No. 16 : What about control? 17 : No. I don't. And 18 don't want to guess. 19 : And that's why I gave him 20 This is the official duty roster from those 21 nights. See I didn't expect you to remember. 22 That's why I was just asking if you were table 23 to look at these 24 : Yeah. 25 : -- things and be able to EFTA00113989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 determine who it is that actually -. I think 2 this is you. you were on the 10th. So -. 3 : So we're going to present you 4 with two rosters. One from August 9th, 2019. 5 : Well I don't think you 6 were on August 9th. Well I guess you were at 7 the 10:00 p.m. So -. 8 : The 10:00 p.m. And she 9 worked an overnight too. Right? So from 10 August 9th and then also from August 10th. So 11 I'm going to mark it Exhibit 1 on August 9th. 12 And Exhibit 2 for August 10th. 13 : Okay. This is August 14 10th. 15 : Can you take a look and let 16 me know who the internal was and who the 17 control was for those nights? 18 : For both nights? 19 : Yes, please. 20 : Okay. I'm currently 21 looking at the assignment roster for Friday, 22 August 9, 2019. 23 : Let's start with that 24 afternoon. And then the evening. 25 : You want day watch? EFTA00113990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. Again, you can go 2 through it. 3 : Okay. On Friday, 4 August 9, 2019, the day watch. You wanted the 5 control room or you wanted -? 6 : Let's do control room first. 7 : The control room 8 number one was Officer 9 : Please spell that. I don't 10 have it. Just for the record. Can you spell 11 the name on that? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. Officer 14 : Yes. And his control 15 number two officer was Officer 16 ■ For the evening watch shift, 17 would have been the control number one officer. 18 It seems like it appears. And 19 would have been the control two 20 according to this roster. 21 : And those were the people 22 that they would have called with the numbers. 23 Correct? 24 : They generally would 25 call the control number two. EFTA00113991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. Control two. 2 : Control two. Yes. 3 : And who was that again? 4 : On day watch that 5 would have been And on evening watch 6 that would have been 7 : Now as far as the counts, 8 who would have picked up the slips from 9 internal? Who was that? 10 : Internal during day 11 watch was Officer who was overtime. 12 And for the evening watch shift, you had 13 Officer and they had an internal 14 number two, - Officer 15 : So they would have been 16 the people that like for instance would go to 17 the SHU and pick up the count slips? 18 : They would go to each 19 floor -- 20 : Sure. 21 : -- and pick up all 22 the count slips for the entire institution. 23 : To include for the 24 special housing unit though? 25 : Everywhere. EFTA00113992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Great. 2 : Yes. Everywhere. 3 Whether that be medical - wherever we had 4 inmates at that time, they would have been 5 picking up those count slips. Or sometimes if 6 unit team or somebody like that is here. And 7 they're on the unit at the time, you know, 8 they'll say if they're on their way down 9 they'll say I'll take the count slip down. So 10 it just depends on what day it is and what we 11 have going on during that specific time. But 12 for the most part, when no one else has 13 delivered the count slips down, it would be 14 Well, on this day, Friday, August 15 9th. It would have been between and 16 or both. 17 : Great. Do you mind just 18 - this is only so that we know what document 19 you're looking at - do you mind just initialing 20 and dating and then circling the people that 21 you just discussed? 22 : Do you want me to 23 date each one? 24 : No-no. I'm sorry. Just 25 on the top of the form, just an initial and the EFTA00113993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 date. And then you can just circle the names 2 of the people that you just said. Just for the 3 purposes of the documents that we discussed 4 will be attached to the transcript of this. 5 And it's just to make sure that we have the 6 right document. Thank you. We'll come back to 7 this. 8 : So I'm going to also present 9 you with the roster for August 10, 2019. Car. 10 you do the same for us again? Identify the 11 internal and the control officers? 12 : Okay. 13 : Do you want her to be 14 specific though between the hours of 6:00 and 15 8:00 a.m.? 16 : Yes. So specifically, 1C 17 p.m. -. 18 : So between 10 p.m. and 19 6:00 a.m. 20 : I think the roster -. What's 21 the time that starts on the roster for August 22 10th? Midnight? 23 : Midnight. Yeah. 24 : So let's identify from 25 midnight to let's say -. EFTA00113994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 : 8:00 a.m. The same shift 2 that you were on. 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. So I'm looking 5 at the assignment roster for Saturday, August 6 10, 2019. The control number one officer was 7 Ms. who is non-custody. She worked in 8 the R&D - Receiving and Discharge department 9 for - she was on overtime. For day watch, 10 control number one is Officer . Control 11 number two is Officer who was on 12 overtime. For evening watch, in the control 13 one position there was Officer and 14 control two was Officer who was also 15 non-custody. 16 : Now when they - when the 17 SHU officers would call control for the counts 18 during that shift, who is it that they would 19 have called? And which counts would have been 20 called? For that shift? I think you said that 21 typically, actually it -- 22 : Typically -. 23 works from 10:00 p.m. 24 to 6:00 a.m. but it shows on their schedule 25 it's 12:00 to 8:00. EFTA00113995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 : Well the officers 2 were working those hours. 3 : Okay. 4 : The officers were 5 working -- 6 : So just the lieutenants 7 were different? 8 : -- 12:00 to 8:00. 9 Yes. It was just the lieutenants. 10 : Okay. So if they 11 actually worked 12:00 to 8:00. 12 : To 8:00, 8:00 to 13 4:00, and 4:00 to midnight. That's correct. 14 : Okay. So who on the 15 schedule then when the special housing unit 16 officers would call in, who was it that they 17 would call into? 18 : They would normally 19 call control two. Now this is not all- 20 inclusive because if control two is busy, 21 sometimes they would call control one. Because 22 control two would be you know sometimes 23 handling back-to-back calls. And plus, they're 24 responsible for answering outside calls and 25 stuff to that nature as well. I mean when EFTA00113996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 people are calling in from the outside, they 2 don't care if they miss count time or not. But 3 the control number two officers work from 6:00 4 to 2:00 to 2:00 to 10:00. Those were their 5 hours. 6 : Okay. 7 : Okay? And um. 8 : So 6:00 a.m. or 6:00 9 p.m.? 10 : The day watch would 11 work - or the a.m. shift as we call it. They 12 would work from 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 13 : Okay. 14 : And the p.m. shift 15 would work 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 16 : Okay. So specifically in 17 the hours that you were working there, who 18 would have been called by the special housing 19 unit? 20 : Well like I said, 21 they would have been calling because I worked 22 morning watch. They would have been calling -. 23 There wouldn't have been a control two -. 24 : So that's -. 25 : Wait a minute. EFTA00113997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 : So that's so yeah. Let's 2 say for instance the 12:00 p.m. count, the 3:00 3 a.m. count, and the 5:00 a.m. count. Who would 4 have been called then on August 10th? 5 : They would have been 6 calling control number one because I don't 7 think they had, um They would have been 8 calling -. I want to say they was calling 9 control number one. Because at this time, it 10 look like we had a control number two. Because 11 there was a time when internal number two would 12 fill in for the control number two. But it 13 doesn't look like this was during that time. 14 : To your best guess, who 15 of the officers in the special housing unit, 16 who would have been called? For the 12:00, the 17 3:00, and the 5:00 a.m. counts, who would have 18 been called on those? 19 : They would have been 20 calling the control center number one. 21 : And who was that? 22 : During the 12:00 to 23 8:00 shift that would have been Officer 24 who, like I said, was on overtime. She's non- 25 custody. She works in the R&D department. EFTA00113998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : That's where she's 3 assigned. 4 : Okay. And then for those 5 same counts, 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 6 a.m., who from internal would have collected 7 those slips? 8 : It could have been 9 either one of them. 10 : Okay. 11 : Because on morning 12 watch, it looks like there was two. But I'm 13 trying to remember at that time if um -. 14 Because sometimes the internal two would assist 15 control because there were other things that 16 needed to be done. But you have for internal 17 there on morning watch there was Officer 18 and Officer who was on overtime. Officer 19 was on overtime for midnight to 8:00. So 20 between those two, they would have been picking 21 up the count slips. 22 : Just can you repeat those 23 two again? 24 : That's internal would 25 have been Officer . And internal number EFTA00113999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 two was Officer . And he was on overtime. 2 : Great. Thank you very 3 much. 4 : Can you do the same with 5 that? Just circle. 6 : Just circle the names 7 that you just mentioned and then just initial 8 and date on the top. 9 : Oh, you know what I'm 10 doing? 11 : It's -. 12 : I'm putting the date 13 of the roster on here. 14 : Yeah, I know. You want 15 to date it today. I'm sorry. So today is 16 6/14/21. Sorry. And I'm handing you back the 17 other roster so you can fix that. 18 : So the August 10th roster I'm 19 going to mark as Exhibit 2. And August 9th 20 will be Exhibit 1. 21 : I wouldn't. this is -. 22 If you're doing exhibits, this is Exhibit 1. 23 : Alright. 24 : If you want to do that. 25 : Okay. EFTA00114000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 : Because we're probably 2 going to have to go back to this, I wouldn't 3 mark them as exhibits. 4 : Okay. No problem. 5 : Because this is always 6 going to be Exhibit 1. 7 : I understand. Just to 8 clarify before we move forward. How many 9 counts take place at the MCC? Daily? 10 : It depends. During 11 the week we have the Let's start with day 12 watch. Day watch we have the 4:00 p.m. count. 13 Evening watch we have the 10:00 p.m. count. 14 Morning watch we have the 12:00 a.m., the 3:00 15 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. So five. On weekends 16 and holidays, we have an additional count of 17 10:00 a.m. which is added for weekends and 18 holidays. 19 : Okay. Thank you. So I'm 20 going to go back and I'm going to continue 21 reading from that spot. So I'm going to reread 22 that line and we'll move forward. 23 : Okay. 24 : In addition to the numbers 25 being recorded and compared to the master list EFTA00114001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 or 1-1 sheet, the guards will call in or 2 receive a call from internal and give a verbal 3 record of the account and internal will compare 4 that number to the number that they have on 5 file and advise the count matches and is good 6 or does not match and a count needs to be 7 conducted again. You clarified that. You 8 explained how the control and the internal 9 works. The count slips prepared by the guards 10 are then placed in the area for pickup by 11 another guard assigned in the MCC and brought 12 to control for review. In addition to the 13 official counts that are to be conducted at 14 specific times during each shift, 15 informed that the guards are also 16 responsible for conducing rounds every 30 to 40 17 minutes. During the rounds, the guards simply 18 walk the range and view that the prisoners are 19 alive and in their cells with no issues. The 20 number of prisoners is not recorded, but simply 21 the fact that a round was conducted. And the 22 officers who conducted it is. When asked, 23 stated that she has no knowledge 24 of rounds or counts not being conducted and 25 that no one would tell her if that were the EFTA00114002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 case. 2 : As far as the rounds 3 go, the rounds are irregular. So they're not 4 supposed to be done at the same time and 5 there's a reason for that. You know. So the 6 rounds are supposed to be conducted - are 7 usually conducted every hour and they're done 8 on an irregular basis. So that's how the 9 rounds are supposed to be done. 10 : So you say every hour, 11 it's not every 30 minutes? 12 : That would be in SHU. 13 : Okay. 14 : Special housing has 15 its own set of rules as far as the count goes 16 but on the other units, and even in SHU the 17 rounds are supposed to be irregular. 18 : Sure. 19 : They're not supposed 20 to be like every half hour or something like 21 that. 22 : Is it correct that it's 23 every 30 minutes but it's supposed to be 24 between 30 and 40 minutes? 25 : There's a little EFTA00114003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 hangover just for that -- 2 : Sure. 3 : -- so that the rounds 4 can be irregular if you get tied up. Because 5 when you're making rounds, inmates will stop 6 you. They will hold conversations with you and 7 ask questions. You know and so it's hard to 8 keep those rounds within those guidelines 9 because there's always something to trip you 10 up. When you're making rounds you may notice 11 something out of place, so that would stop you. 12 But as far as those rounds getting conducted, 13 those rounds are supposed to be conducted on an 14 irregular basis. But do understand that there 15 are things that will trip you up. So sometimes 16 you may be on time. Sometimes you -. It's 17 hard to fall within those guidelines because 18 you're - it's live time. Everything is live. 19 So you can't predict what's going to happen 20 while you're making your rounds. 21 : Understood. And that was a 22 summary of your interview. So as you can see, 23 we have a few questions we want to follow 24 : Right. 25 : And we've got -. EFTA00114004 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : You have medical 2 emergencies. You have inmates that are 3 complaining, wait until you start making your 4 rounds to complain about being in pain or 5 something that's hurting them. Or a lot of 6 general stuff. They'll ask you questions just 7 about anything when you're making rounds. 8 : Understood. 9 : Mm-hmm. 10 : I'm going to go back to my 11 interview now and I have a few questions for 12 you. If there were instructions of guidance 13 from upper management, how would you receive 14 them? 15 : It depends. During 16 that time, they made -. Whoever was in the 17 office may come and say something to the person 18 in the office. And it was left up to everybody 19 else to get that information from that 20 individual. 21 : Who was in the office at that 22 point? I mean is a certain person assigned to 23 the office or it could be anybody in the 24 office? 25 : Like the lieutenant. EFTA00114005 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 Like a - when I say the office, I'm talking 2 about like the lieutenants' office. So 3 sometimes they would just - and more often than 4 not - they would just say something to whoever 5 is in the office. And that's how everybody is 6 supposed to get that information. 7 : If there were instructions 8 from the lieutenants, who would give it? 9 : We would expect the 10 captain to give it. 11 : Did the instructions that 12 would come from above the captain? Or was it 13 always from the captain? 14 : Um.... I don't -. I 15 mean, from time to time, some of the AWs would 16 put things out. But the normal chain would be 17 through the captain because that was our 18 immediate supervisor. 19 : Okay. If you had important 20 details to discuss with your subordinates or 21 COs who report to you, how would you 22 communicate that to them? 23 : One more time. 24 : If you had important details 25 or instructions you wanted to discuss with your EFTA00114006 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 subordinates or COs, correctional officers, who 2 report to you, how would you communicate those 3 instructions to them? 4 : I usually did it when 5 I made my rounds. And I would tell them. But 6 you could also do a thing such as 3-3-3s. And 7 that way, that's when everybody come on the 8 line and you could do it that way. But you 9 really didn't have time. It was easier to just 10 tell everybody individually because that way 11 you're with them in person. And it's just 12 easier for you to do it at that time because if 13 they had questions, then they could ask you 14 questions. And when you're doing over the 15 phone at the hole, you're sitting in the 16 office. So you're really not getting anything 17 done, you know. At least if I'm making my 18 rounds, I'm getting my rounds done and I'm 19 doing my - passing down information to my staff 20 at the same time. And also it lets me know 21 that you got it. I'm telling you. it's just 22 you and me. There's no distractions in the 23 background. There's nothing else going on. 24 But it just depends on the person. 25 : Okay. EFTA00114007 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : How they got that information to each individual staff. 42 : Would you communicate that directly with your COs or would you tell another CO to pass on the message? It depends on what the information was. I mean things that you want them to know and definitely. If it was something that was a new policy or procedure or something like that, you would definitely want to tell them yourselves because at that time, like I said, there wasn't anything coming out in writing. That's generally how new policy and procedure is put in place. You know you either receive a memorandum saying starting with this memorandum or starting with - effective today or some other date, this is what we're going to be doing. That's generally how that information is put out. Or some type of manual or something like that is updated. Those are the ways that it's generally put out. That way you have the information there and you can refer back to it as needed. : What if it involved an inmate? Like certain instructions for certain EFTA00114008 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 inmates. How would that come out? Would that 2 come out verbally or would that be written? 3 : It depends on, like I 4 say, the person that's delivering the 5 information. It depended on that. 6 : On August 9th when you came 7 on shift during that day, you said you were 8 working overnight. 9 : Yes. 10 : So technically, weren't you 11 on shift August 9th nighttime? Morning watch? 12 Do you remember? 13 : August 9th going into 14 August 10th. 15 : Okay. 16 : So -. 17 : Did you work the day before 18 too? You don't recall. 19 : I don't know if I did 20 or not. I may have. 21 : Let's try to focus -. 22 : Yeah. I don't know. 23 : No problem. So let's talk 24 about August -. 25 : Um, so if you're asking - EFTA00114009 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 2 : What do you mean did 3 I work -- 4 : -- specifically August 5 9th -- 6 : -- day watch or -? 7 : It looks like she was on 8 from midnight to 8:00 the day before. 9 : Day before too. 10 : So that means you would 11 have left at 6:00 a.m. on August 9th. 12 : Right. And came back 13 14 : And come back at 10:00 15 p.m. 16 : That's correct. 17 : So let's focus on 10:00 18 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. August 9th night going into 19 August 10th day. 20 : Right. Because I 21 don't think I worked evening watch. 22 : No there's a reason. Can I - 23 24 : Sure. I'm just saying 25 she's done at 6:00 a.m. not at 8:00. EFTA00114010 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 : Yeah, that's what I wanted to 2 ask. 3 : Okay. 4 : So I just want to clarify. 5 That day, I know you don't recall but according 6 to the schedule, what is that showing? What 7 time did you leave on August 9th morning? 8 : Oh. I would have 9 left probably - it depends on who was relieving 10 me. I probably would have left probably before 11 6:00. 12 : Before 6:00. 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Would you -? 15 : 6:00 a.m. 16 : 6:00 a.m. By 6:00 a.m., 17 would you happen to have heard if there was an 18 inmate being removed from the MCC? Or did that 19 come afterwards? Let's say they -. 20 : What on August 9th? 21 : August 9th. 22 : I don't recall. Wnat 23 day did Epstein die? Because I don't even 24 remember what day he passed. 25 : August 10th. EFTA00114011 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : Well that's when he was 3 found. 4 : Okay. 5 : He was found August 10th 6 morning. 7 : So you said -. 8 : August 9th. That would be 9 Friday morning. Right? You left the shift it 10 looks like 6:00 a.m. Right? 11 : Which would have been 12 Saturday morning. 13 : No-no. Sorry. I should 14 clarify. August 9th -- 15 : Oh. 16 -- morning is Friday morning. 17 : Okay. Friday 18 morning. 19 : Friday morning, you did the 20 overnight shift. Then you left. And then you 21 came back August 9th, 10:00 p.m. and you worked 22 until 6:00 a.m. 23 : Right. 24 : Now I'm talking about August 25 9th -. Let's say August 8th 10:00 p.m. to EFTA00114012 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August 9th -. 2 : Oh my God. 3 : The reason I'm asking is I'm 4 just trying to clarify. Would you have known 5 if any instructions came about inmates having 6 to be brought out for court or anything like 7 that. Would you have heard about it before you 8 left? 9 : We're talking about 10 August -. 11 : 9th. 12 : I mean I may have. I 13 can't recall. 14 : Okay. But does it happen 15 before 6:00 a.m. or it happens after 6:00 a.m. 16 normally? 17 : You mean like inmates 18 that are going to court? 19 : Going to court or being 20 removed from the prison for whatever reason. 21 : I mean if it involved 22 me. Say if we had an inmate up on 10 South. 23 Because those inmates up there are generally 3- 24 man holes. So if there was an inmate that I 25 had to physically be involved in escorting, EFTA00114013 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 yes. They would notify me or the activities 2 lieutenant. It just depends. 3 : No problem. Now I'm going to 4 keep going. Are you familiar with Inmate 5 Jeffrey Epstein? 6 : Yes. 7 : Okay. Did you work in the 8 SHU while Epstein was assigned to the SHU? 9 : No. 10 : Okay. Do you recall if 11 Epstein had a cellmate? 12 : At some point he had 13 a cellmate. 14 : Okay. Were you aware that 15 Epstein had attempted to commit suicide before? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. Do you recall around 18 what time - what date it was? 19 : I know it was in 20 July. I can't remember the exact date. But 21 know it was in July. 22 : Were you there for that 23 incident? 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. Quickly, do you EFTA00114014 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 remember? Like a short summary what 2 transpired? 3 : Um, we were called to 4 the special housing unit. I think when we got 5 there and Officer Thomas was working that day. 6 When we got there, the officer informed us that 7 an inmate had tried to hurt himself. So we go 8 up to the cell and it's Epstein. 9 : Okay. 10 : And he's lying on the 11 floor seemingly out of it I guess you could 12 say. But when we tap him and we move him, we 13 could see him kind of looking up at us. But 14 then he would close his eyes like he didn't 15 want us to know that he was actually conscious. 16 : Okay. 17 : So we couldn't get 18 anything from him. He wouldn't respond to us. 19 But we knew that he was okay. He was 20 breathing. And like I said, he would look up 21 at us from time to time. When he didn't think 22 that we were looking at him. 23 : Okay. 24 : And -. 25 : What happened after that? EFTA00114015 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 Was Epstein placed on suicide watch or psych 2 observation? 3 : Yes. He was placed 4 on suicide watch. 5 : Okay. 6 : Officer Thomas was 7 assigned to watch him. And he literally stood 8 there at his cell all night watching him and 9 talking to him. 10 : Who was? 11 : Officer Thomas. 12 : Okay. Same Thomas? 13 : Yes. 14 15 : Yes. 16 : Okay. 17 : Yes. 18 : How long - do you recall how 19 long he was on suicide watch? 20 : I don't recall. 21 : Okay. No problem. Now was 22 he eventually removed from suicide watch? 23 : Yes. 24 : What happened after suicide 25 watch? Was he placed on any of the EFTA00114016 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 observation? Or -? 2 : I don't remember. I 3 don't remember if he went from suicide watch to 4 psych ops or if he went from suicide watch 5 straight back to the special housing unit. 6 : So suicide watch - where does 7 that take place? 8 : That's on the second 9 floor. 10 : Second floor. What unit? 11 : Medical. 12 : Medical? 13 : It's right out -. 14 It's like an extension to the medical unit 15 slash -. At that time, we had - there was a 16 female housing unit there. So it's adjacent to 17 the female housing unit. But the second floor 18 is our medical floor aside from the housing 19 unit. 20 : Okay. 21 : And the psych unit. 22 : When Epstein was returned 23 back to the SHU. Do you recall any 24 instructions being given by upper management, 25 executive staff, regarding Epstein being EFTA00114017 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 assigned with a cellmate? 2 : No. 3 : Okay. Did you -? I'm going 4 to go through each. Did you receive any 5 instruction from Captain in regard to 6 this? 7 : No. 8 : Okay. Do you recall? I'm 9 going to ask. Do you recall receiving an email 10 from psych instructing that Epstein needed a 11 cellmate? 12 : No. 13 : I'm going to show you a 14 document. Right? Read that document. Who is 15 that email from? 16 : This is from Darlene 17 Imeri. 18 : And who is that? 19 : She was a 20 psychologist here at the time. 21 : Okay. And what is the 22 summary of that email? 23 : It's says inmate 24 Epstein register number 76318-054 is being 25 taken off of psych observation and needs to be EFTA00114018 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 housed with an appropriate cellmate. 2 : What's the date of that 3 email? 4 : This is July 30, 2019 5 at 12:30 p.m. 6 : Do you recall getting that 7 email? 8 : I don't recall. This 9 is the first I've seen of this email. This is 10 the first time I've seen this email. 11 : So if you flip through the 12 pages, it actually shows you the recipients. 13 Is your name on that? 14 : If she sent it to the 15 lieutenants group, I'm sure - more than likely 16 17 : There's a -. 18 : Yeah. 19 : It's in alphabetical order. 20 : Yeah. Yes, I'm here. 21 : Is there a reason why that 22 I mean, you don't recall reading that email 23 yourself then. 24 : I don't even remember 25 seeing this email. EFTA00114019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. Did you ever 2 participate in executive committee meetings? 3 : No. 4 : Okay. That was just the 5 higher ups? You don't even know who -? 6 : I don't even know 7 what that -. 8 : Okay. No problem. 9 : Yeah, I don't 10 : Okay. So I'll move on. 11 : Initial and date. 12 : Yeah. Sorry. Can you 13 initial and date that document for me? I'm 14 going to mention some names. Can you just let 15 me know what, if any, conversations you had 16 with any of these people regarding Epstein and 17 Epstein needing a cellmate at all times? 18 Captain . Lieutenant 19 : Okay. What do you 20 want me to do? I'm sorry. 21 : No. I'm going to through the 22 names. 23 : Okay. 24 : If you recall if you had a 25 conversation with any of these people in regard EFTA00114020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to Epstein and Epstein needing a cellmate. 2 : Okay. 3 : Okay? This is prior to the 4 incident. 5 : Okay. 6 : Captain 7 Lieutenant . Lieutenant 8 9 : You need to let her say 10 yes or no after each one. 11 : Okay. Sorry. Apologize. 12 Have you ever had a conversation with 13 Captain - in regard to Epstein needing a 14 cellmate? 15 : No. 16 : What about Lieutenant 17 18 : No. 19 : Lieutenant 20 : No. 21 : Lieutenant 22 : No. 23 : Lieutenant 24 : No. 25 : Lieutenant EFTA00114021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. 2 : Lieutenant 3 : No. 4 : Now following that I have a 5 few more names. The rest are correctional 6 officers. Same thing. Have you had any 7 conversations with them about Epstein requiring 8 a cellmate? CO 9 : No. 10 : CO 11 : No. 12 : If I mispronounce the name, 13 please correct me. CO 14 : No. 15 : CO Michael Thomas. 16 : No. 17 : CO Tova Noel. 18 : No. 19 : CO 20 : No. 21 : CO 22 : No. 23 : CO 24 25 : Yeah. EFTA00114022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. 2 : How about SOS 3 4 : No. 5 : Okay. When did you become 6 aware of Inmate Efren Reyes being removed from 7 the MCC? Efren Reyes. Do you know who Efren 8 Reyes is? 9 : I don't even know who 10 that is. 11 : Okay. Do you recall who was 12 Epstein's cellmate? 13 : When? 14 : During that period? After he 15 came back from suicide watch? 16 : No. 17 : Okay. 18 : Do you remember if he had 19 one after that? We're talking about July 30th 20 when he came back. Are you -? 21 : I didn't know if he 22 had one or not. 23 : Okay. 24 : Um. No. I didn't 25 know if he had a cellmate or not to be honest EFTA00114023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with you. No. 2 : And you're not aware of any 3 requirements of him having a cellmate either? 4 : I wasn't even aware 5 that they had sent out some information 6 regarding the fact that he needed to have a 7 cellmate. I would think that they would be 8 that that would be something that they would 9 verbalize. 10 : Okay. 11 : That they would make 12 sure that we individually -. That they would 13 check to make sure that we all read that 14 message. 15 : Okay. 16 : I mean if it was 17 something that was critical -. Because he was 18 on suicide watch. And because of the 19 circumstances that surrounded him. I would 20 expect for them to follow-up and make sure that 21 we all read that email and we were all aware 22 that he was to have a cellie. 23 : Who would you expect to do 24 that? 25 : I would expect for EFTA00114024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 psychology to follow-up with us. I would 2 expect for definitely the captain to get with 3 us individually and tell us. 4 : Okay. 5 : Hold a lieutenant's 6 meeting or something to let us know that we 7 were to make sure that he had a cellmate. 8 : Okay. If - let's say. Have 9 you ever dealt with an inmate that required a 10 cellmate before? 11 : Not directly, no. 12 No. 13 : But do you -? Okay. You 14 never have. But if let's say an inmate was 15 required to have a cellmate. And that cellmate 16 was removed for whatever reason. Do you know 17 what the procedure would be? 18 : If an inmate was 19 required to have a cellmate. And everybody 20 knew. Because when you're talking about an 21 inmate that needs a cellmate, it's not just the 22 lieutenants who work with that inmate. The 23 officers are the ones who are assigned to that 24 inmate housing unit. Around the clock, 24/7. 25 So you would definitely want that information. EFTA00114025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 That should be an all staff email to be honest 2 with you. Because that way everybody in the 3 institution knows that there's an important 4 reason why that inmate needs a cellmate. And 5 that way if at some point in time it's not 6 happening or there's a lapse in that, everybody 7 knows. So you've got - because you have staff 8 making rounds around the institution on the 9 housing units and all of that stuff all the 10 time. You know, different members of the 11 institution staff. So that would be an all 12 staff email just to alert everybody in the 13 institution that, you know, if you're ever in 14 that area and you come across this inmate and 15 he doesn't have a cellie, then you need to 16 follow-up, ask why, make sure somebody knows 17 that that inmate don't have a cellie. 18 : I'm going to clarify. Based 19 on the fact that based on what we - our 20 investigation. Inmate Efren Reyes was assigned 21 as a cellmate for Jeffrey Epstein. 22 : Okay. 23 : And he was required - 24 according to psychology - he was required to 25 have a cellmate. Now Inmate Efren Reyes was EFTA00114026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 removed from the MCC on August 9th morning 2 during the day watch. Now based on - I'm going 3 to read you the names again. Right. And you 4 just tell me. You might not know it directly, 5 but who would be responsible to take what 6 action when they found out that Efren Reyes was 7 removed. If there was a requirement, that 8 Epstein had to have a cellmate at all times, 9 and his cellmate was removed, who would be 10 responsible to take action? And I'm going to 11 mention the names. Let me know what their role 12 would have been and what action they should 13 have taken. 14 : You're telling -. 15 You want me to tell you that. That's if in 16 fact they knew -. 17 : Yeah. If in fact they knew. 18 : Yeah. If in fact 19 they knew that he was supposed to have a 20 cellie. 21 : Yes. 22 : You know. Not 23 assuming that he had a cellie. 24 : And so we don't have to 25 go back and circle back to this. Not only - so EFTA00114027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 if he's naming a name, say what action should 2 have they taken and who should have told them 3 the information with regard to the need to have 4 a cellmate. 5 : Well I would have to 6 know what position those officers had -- 7 : Sure. 8 : -- at the time that 9 this occurred also. Because -. 10 : We can hand you the roster 11 again. 12 : So this is the August 13 9th. I'll give you that one first. 14 : But just start with 15 (Indiscernible *00:58:18). 16 : Again, so he was removed 17 from his cell let's say around 8:30 a.m. and I 18 think he was removed from the institution 19 somewhere around 1:30 p.m. So 8:30 is when he 20 went to a court. And then by 1:30 he was gone. 21 : They were pretty much 22 notified he's not coming back. 23 : Mm. 24 : So I'll start with Captain 25 EFTA00114028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes. Captain 2 should have known. 3 : How would he have known? Who 4 should have made him aware of it? 5 : Let's just - instead of 6 going through it, let's just first start with 7 going from the bottom up. Who should have 8 known that he was removed? And how should the 9 chain of command have gone up? Looking at that 10 duty schedule roster. 11 : Yeah. Based on that. Who 12 should have initially known that he was 13 removed? 14 : Well R&D should have 15 known initially that the inmate was removed. 16 Now whether or not they would have known that 17 he was Epstein's cellie is something different. 18 : Okay. 19 : Like I said, if this 20 information had put out because Epstein was a 21 high-profile inmate. He had just attempted 22 suicide. That should have been an all-staff 23 email. That should have alerted everybody. 24 And not only that, but when that happens. 25 First of all, when Epstein originally arrived EFTA00114029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 to the MCC, Epstein should have been placed on 2 10 South. That's our - what they consider the 3 maximum-security unit here. He never should 4 have been placed on 10 South anyway because 5 you're not guaranteed that anybody in this 6 building is going to maintain a cellie because 7 it's an administrative institution. Inmates 8 come and go all the time. So there's - they 9 don't have a sentence date. And with that 10 said, that means that at any point and time 11 while we're sitting here, the courts can 12 release somebody and that inmate is gone right 13 now. So to put out an email to certain 14 individuals and not make that an all-staff 15 email so that it would -. And I guess we have 16 to go back and say what was the intentions of 17 that? If it's something that you feel is 18 concerning and that absolutely needs to happen 19 because you still feel that this inmate is at 20 risk, then you say to yourself, well why is he 21 being released from suicide watch? Or psych 22 ops. Why, you know? If you feel that this 23 inmate still needs this type of supervision. 24 And if the answer to that is yes, he still 25 needs that type of supervision, then you would EFTA00114030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 recommend that, you know, why don't you keep 2 him?? Why aren't you maintaining him? You 3 know. On watch? If he requires that type of 4 supervision? Or why - since you didn't do it 5 to begin with - which they should have done. 6 Considering he was high-profile, he was an at- 7 risk inmate, just the fact that he was a high- 8 profile inmate, he should have been placed on 9 10 South. After he attempted suicide and they 10 determined that they was going to remove him 11 from that and required him to have a cellie. 12 Then they should have either made it an all- 13 staff email, made sure everybody was aware 14 everybody. Not just -. And it's difficult 15 because people are on days off, people are on 16 vacation, people are on sick leave, you see 17 what I'm saying? 18 : Okay. 19 : So for somebody like 20 Epstein. Epstein should have automatically 21 gone to 10 South where he would have had 24- 22 hour monitoring on him at all times. 23 : Okay. Assuming that the Co - 24 . Let's start with the COs. Assuming the COs 25 in the SHU knew that this was a requirement. EFTA00114031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 In day watch. If he was removed at 8:30, who 2 is responsibility would it have been to notify 3 upwards? 4 : It would have been 5 any of their responsibility if they were there 6 at the time and they were aware that he was 7 being moved or if they knew that he was even 8 supposed to have a cellie. 9 : So who was the COs on for the 10 SHU? 11 : On -? 12 : Day watch for August 9th. 13 : Day watch on August 14 9th would have been Officer , Officer 15 Joiner, , and 16 : Okay. And what would - if 17 they knew that Epstein was required to have a 18 celimate, what should they have done? 19 : If they knew that 20 Epstein required a cellie, and his cellie was 21 released, if they knew he wasn't coming back. 22 I mean I don't know if they knew that when the 23 cellie left that he was never coming back. I 24 don't know what any of these people were told. 25 So I'm just assuming here. If his cellie was EFTA00114032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 released, and they knew for a fact that he 2 wasn't coming back, and if they knew that he 3 was supposed to have a cellie, which I doubt. 4 Because I didn't even know it. So -. 5 : Let's just assume they knew. 6 Let's just go from there. If they knew. 7 : Then one of them 8 should have called. 9 : Called who? 10 : The captain, 11 psychology, the lieutenant's office. One of 12 them. 13 : Okay. And let's just say 14 they called the lieutenant's office. What 15 would the lieutenant's office have done? 16 : They would have 17 followed up. They would have been like okay, 18 if they didn't know already, they would have 19 determined what's the status of this cellmate. 20 What is -? Is he coming back? They probably 21 would have moved Epstein out of that cell or 22 immediately put another inmate in the cell with 23 him. 24 : Okay. 25 : But when you're EFTA00114033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 talking about somebody like Epstein, you just 2 can't just put any inmate in that cell with 3 Epstein. So you know, you kind of have to seek 4 guidance on that and tell - let somebody know 5 what you have going on so they can determine 6 who they want in the cell with Epstein. Which 7 is why it goes back to 10 South. That's why he 8 should have been on 10 South because you can't. 9 He's not one of those inmates that you can just 10 put anybody in his cell with him. 11 : Who would you have - seeked 12 guidance from? 13 : Me? 14 : Yeah. 15 : As a lieutenant? 16 : To assign - get a new inmate 17 for Epstein. Who do you think? Because you 18 said he's high profile. Who would you have -? 19 : I would have informed 20 the captain -- 21 : Okay. 22 : -- that you know the 23 cellie that he had had been released and asked 24 him you know how do you want us to move 25 forward? EFTA00114034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 Okay. : Who do you want the 3 SHU officers to place in that cell with him? 4 : So as per whoever the CO is 5 they should report it to the lieutenant or the 6 captain and they would have brought it up and 7 someone higher up should have assigned a 8 cellmate. 9 : The officers if they 10 knew. 11 : Yeah. 12 : If they were aware 13 that he was supposed to have had a cellmate and 14 based upon that email that I just saw for the 15 first time, I'm sure they didn't - in this 16 group here. Oh they would have contacted 17 somebody. 18 : Okay. 19 : These guys definitely 20 were not you know 21 , these cats - they wouldn't have ignored 22 that. They would have told somebody. If they 23 knew, they would have definitely reported it to 24 somebody. And um -. 25 : How soon should have an EFTA00114035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 inmate been assigned to that cell? Normally, 2 what's the procedure? How soon after would 3 they -? 4 : I say that Epstein 5 should have been on 10 South. 6 : Okay. 7 : So I mean, as quick 8 as possible. 9 : Okay. That's it. 10 : Yeah. As quick as 11 possible. 12 : I'm not going to go through 13 names. You just explained this from the bottom 14 up. We just wanted to clarify. 15 : Okay. 16 : I'm going to move on. Did 17 you conduct on August 9th evening from 10:00 18 p.m. to August 10th the next day? Did you 19 conduct any rounds in the SHU during your 20 shift? 21 : Yes. 22 : What rounds did you do. Do 23 you recall? What count or rounds did you do in 24 the SHU? 25 : I don't remember what EFTA00114036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 rounds. 2 : Okay. 3 : I think it was 4 probably mid-morning I think. What do you mean 5 by rounds? Do you mean did I conduct my 6 lieutenant rounds? 7 : Yeah. Lieutenant rounds. 8 : Yeah. Yeah. 9 : Mid-morning? 10 : I think it was mid- 11 morning because there was a lot going on that 12 night. 13 : No problem. 14 : So I was running 15 behind. 16 : Let's clarify this 17 because you weren't there mid-morning. 18 : Mid-morning you mean 19 overnight. 20 : Yes. Overnight. 21 : Okay. So when you say 22 mid you mean like 4:00 a.m. on August 10th is 23 what you're saying? 24 : Yeah. Probably. 25 That sounds about right. EFTA00114037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Okay. 2 : Now I just have two 3 questions. Why do COs have to conduct rounds? 4 : To make sure that the 5 inmates are safe. That they're still 6 breathing. That there is nothing illegal or 7 unauthorized going on inside the institution. 8 Just to make sure that everything is okay. 9 : Okay. Is it -? Why do COs 10 have to conduct counts? 11 : To account for all 12 the inmates. 13 : Okay. Is it mandatory to 14 conduct counts and rounds? 15 : It's part of your 16 duties. 17 : Okay. Is it policy? 18 : Yes, it's policy. 19 : Okay. And you explained in 20 your previous interview about who is 21 responsible for conducting the rounds. As a 22 supervisor, you mentioned in your previous 23 interview that the supervisor should also 24 conduct one round per -. One count or one 25 round? I mean what are they -? EFTA00114038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 : Each lieutenant is 2 required to make rounds during their shift. 3 Whether that be the operations lieutenant or 4 whether that be the activities lieutenant. 5 Just a lieutenant. It doesn't have to be both. 6 If I'm operations lieutenant and I have an 7 activities lieutenant assigned, both of us 8 don't have to make rounds. The lieutenant - a 9 lieutenant just have to make rounds during each 10 respective shift. 11 : Is there specific units that 12 they have to go to or can it be anything? 13 : I mean if you're 14 making rounds, the idea is to go to each 15 housing unit. 16 : Okay. 17 : Now depending on what 18 you have going on during the night, sometimes 19 you may get that done. Sometimes you don't. 20 mean there may be a lot going on at the 21 institution that you may not get around to 22 making the rounds done during your shift. 23 : Okay. I want to take a quick 24 detour. I'm going to show you two documents. 25 Can you show me what that is a map of? EFTA00114039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I have no idea. 2 : If you don't understand it -- 3 : Yeah, I don't 4 -- then just say it. 5 : -- know what this is. 6 : Okay. No problem. How many 7 tiers are there for the SHU? 8 : I haven't been up 9 there in a while. I'm going to say there is 10 two. There's four tiers. I mean if you're 11 talking about upstairs and downstairs, there's 12 two tiers. 13 : Two tiers. 14 : Mm-hmm. And then you 15 have 10 South. And then you have Lower 10 16 South. So. If you count each individual tier, 17 I guess you would say five tiers. Because you 18 got Lower 10 South up there as well. 19 : Okay. Five tiers. 20 : Mm-hmm. 21 : Thank you. I'm going 22 to move on. I'm going to show you a document. 23 Can you tell me what that is? 24 : This is the I-1. 25 : What's an I-1? EFTA00114040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 : The 1-1 is a 2 computation of all the housing units. Well it 3 includes all the housing units and how many 4 inmates they have on their unit at the time in 5 which this is actually printed. 6 : What time is that for? 7 : It says August 10, 8 2019 at 12:35 -- 9 : 12:35. And can you -? 10 : -- a.m. 11 : Can you find the count for 12 the SHU in there? You can flip through it. 13 You can -. 14 : Yeah. It's -. 15 : What units are they reflected 16 by? What do they call the units on the 17 document? Are they referred to as the SHU? Or 18 are they referred to by a different name? 19 : They're referred to 20 by alphabets. 21 : What alphabets? 22 : For special housing 23 unit, it would be ZA. And their count is - at 24 this time - on August 10, 2019 at 0035, it was 25 72. EFTA00114041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 : If you flip through it, it 2 will tell you there might be more documents. 3 Keep going. It'll tell you who did the counts. 4 Do you recall who -? Based on the document, 5 can you tell me who did the count for the SHU? 6 Which SHU unit - ZA or ZB - was Epstein housed 7 in? 8 : Epstein was in ZA. 9 ZA. And who did the count at 10 12 midnight? 11 : There was an issue 12 with the count at midnight. 13 : What was the issue? 14 : There was an inmate 15 that they had removed from the unit and he was 16 on - he was being housed in the receiving and 17 discharge in one of the holding cells in R&D on 18 the third floor. And -. 19 : Do you recall if that was 20 Inmate Fernandez? 21 : I don't know what. 22 : Okay. 23 : I don't remember what 24 his name was. 25 : Okay. EFTA00114042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 : But they were for 2 some reason I want to say. I don't know if 3 he was on dry cell or what his status was. 4 : Was -? 5 : I don't think he was 6 on suicide watch. I can't remember. 7 : You said dry cell. Now dry 8 cell. Is that in R&D? 9 : No. That's not in 10 R&D. Usually dry cell is done in the special 11 housing unit. So I can't remember what his 12 status was but he was -. I can't remember if 13 he was on dry cell or if he was on - if that 14 was an extension of the suicide watch. I can't 15 remember, but there was an inmate down there. 16 And he was being housed down there with the 17 watch on that particular night. And they were 18 counting him on the unit because they hadn't 19 received any guidance as to how he was going to 20 be counted. Because R&D, mind you, is the 21 intake unit. It's not a housing unit. 22 : Okay. 23 : So inmates are 24 theoretically are not supposed to be staying - 25 spending the night down there. EFTA00114043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 : So R&D. So they do mainly 2 intake you said. Right? 3 : That's what they do. 4 Yeah. 5 : If they move an inmate to R&D 6 what would it be for? Are they leaving the 7 (Indiscernible *01:14:14)? 8 : Yeah because they're 9 leaving or they're going to court or something 10 like that. 11 : On that sheet, what would you 12 identify the area - the unit - as for R&D on 13 there? 14 : RA. 15 : RA? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. Now based on that, yo.: 18 said there was an issue with it. 19 : Right. Because if 20 you have an inmate in RA, then it's going to 21 interfere with the special housing unit count. 22 If this inmate that's here on RA is from 23 special housing. Okay. 24 : Yeah. 25 : When this - um. EFTA00114044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 Their count was originally 73. But then you 2 have an inmate in RA from special housing. 3 : Okay. 4 : So that would bring 5 it down to 72 because this inmate -. This is 6 an outcount. You do an outcount when an inmate 7 is in a different area than where he is housed. 8 Okay. 9 : Okay. 10 : And you can't have 73 11 inmates. If 73 is your base, if you've got an 12 inmate from that area on outcount, then that's 13 not a good count. 14 : Right. So the count. So 15 let's get it right. According to the records, 16 how many inmates should have been at the 12:00 17 p.m. count. How many inmates should have been 18 in the SHU? 19 : 12:00 a.m. 20 : 12:00 a.m. Sorry. 21 : Well that depends 22 because when they initially did this, that's 23 how they was counting the inmates. It wasn't 24 until I started doing that count that I 25 realized that something wasn't right. So EFTA00114045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 that's how we got around to there's an inmate 2 in R&D. You know that's being housed down 3 there on watch. You know. That's how we got to 4 that. So it's like oh, so there's an inmate in 5 R&D. You know. And then you start asking 6 questions. Why is he there? What's the deal 7 with him? Because none of this information was 8 passed down. 9 : Okay. 10 : So I've got to ask 11 the staff what's going on. 12 : I'm going to clarify. I'm 13 going to go back. My question is at midnight, 14 who did the count for the SHU? 15 : According to this, it 16 says Thomas and Noel. 17 : Alright. If they did the 18 count and how many people are supposed to do 19 the count? 20 : Two. At least two. 21 : Two. If they went through 22 the SHU and they did a head count, right. How 23 many people should they have down? 24 : They should have 25 gotten 72. But what I'm telling you is when EFTA00114046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 this count was done, they were counting this 2 inmate that was in R&D on that count because no 3 one had told them that the inmate was actually 4 somewhere else. And he was being counted in 5 that area. So they were logging -. So what I 6 understand - and that's how they understood it. 7 That that inmate was being carried on to their 8 count. 9 : Even though they didn't get 10 eyes on the inmate? Even though they don't 11 know physically. If they physically cannot see 12 the inmate, they're allowed to put it in their 13 count? 14 : Because the inmate is 15 being ghosted. They could call R&D and ask and 16 say he is the inmate there. Because there was 17 a staff member on the inmate. The problem was 18 not how many inmates they had or what's 19 counted. The problem was the status of this 20 inmate that was in R&D. 21 : Okay. 22 : They didn't' know the 23 status of the inmate in R&D whether he was 24 going to be -. Whether he was staying there 25 altogether or how they were supposed to EFTA00114047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 indicate him on their count slip. They didn't 2 know any of that. That wasn't until they 3 brought this to my attention. And this was the 4 original count slip. There was another count 5 slip that they supposed to have been 6 completing. And place that in the Sally port, 7 but apparently nobody picked it up. So this 8 was the original count slip that was submitted. 9 : Okay. 10 : But they were 11 supposed to -. Once we corrected this issue, 12 with the dude in - with the guy in R&D and put 13 him on an outcount. And place him in R&D, then 14 they were supposed to go back, recount. They 15 were supposed to recount and then they was to 16 submit another count slip. 17 : Okay. That's what I'm 18 getting to. 19 : Yes. 20 : So who found out that there 21 was an error with the count? Did they notify 22 you or did you found -? 23 : Right. Right. When 24 they called. I think we kind of hashed it out 25 together. EFTA00114048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 Okay. 83 : You know because they 3 were saying that they had an inmate that was 4 not on the unit. And they was like well what 5 do we do? 6 : Okay. 7 : Because I guess -. I 8 don't know what had happened, but they knew 9 that the guy wasn't on the unit. So they was 10 trying to get it corrected. 11 : Okay. 12 : And of course we 13 started asking questions. Where is this inmate 14 at? What is he doing there? How long he's 15 been there. Dah-dah-dah-dah. But again, this 16 is count time. So you've just got to do the 17 best you can because we've got a count to 18 clear. You know. 19 : Do you recall. Sorry. You 20 had a question. 21 : I just want to make sure 22 that we're clear. So did they call in 73 23 without saying this is 73 with a guy that's not 24 actually here. Or did they just call in 73 and 25 someone said how is this 73 if you guys only EFTA00114049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have 72? 2 : They called saying 3 that their count was you know that they had the 4 count issue was 73. But they had an inmate 5 that had been removed that had been taken off 6 the unit and was taken to R&D. 7 : Okay. So they knew that 8 when they called in the count? It wasn't like 9 10 : I mean -- 11 : -- they said -- 12 : -- they weren't 13 calling -. 14 : -- hey we've got 73 and - 15 16 : No-no-no-no-no. 17 : -- someone said how do 18 you have 73 for -- 19 : No. 20 : -- someone that's not 21 there? 22 : No-no-no-no-no. When 23 they called in the count, they was like I have 24 73 but one of the inmates up here is in R&D. 25 : So they knew that there EFTA00114050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 was only 72 in SHU at the time. They made note 2 of the fact 3 : Right because 4 : I'm calling in 73 5 because that's what our numbers are supposed to 6 be, but one guy is not here. 7 : And they didn't know 8 the status of that inmate. 9 : Sure. 10 : They didn't know -. 11 : So it wasn't like after- 12 the-fact. Like somebody like you're saying -. 13 : Like I caught them? 14 : Yeah. Like wait, how are 15 you calling 73 -- 16 : No. 17 if one guy's not here. 18 : No. No-no-no-no-no. 19 They -. 20 : So they brought it to 21 your guys' attention rather than the other way 22 around? 23 : And I said so how 24 many bodies do you have on the unit? And he 25 said I have 72. EFTA00114051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 : So that's a good answer. 2 So he - so Thomas is the one who called that 3 count? Rather than Noel? 4 : I think it was 5 Thomas. I don't think I spoke to Noel about 6 the count. 7 : So you don't remember 8 specifically though. But you -- 9 : I think it was 10 Thomas. 11 : -- believe it was Thomas. 12 : It was a guy. 13 : Okay. 14 : And I said well how 15 many inmates do you have on your unit right 16 now? How many bodies? And he said 72. And I 17 said well let me call because I need to call 18 and make sure that this other body is where 19 it's supposed to be. I need to see this body. 20 I need to make sure somebody -. I need to know 21 what's going on with this body. Is a person 22 sitting on it? Is this guy somewhere in a room 23 by himself? 24 : Okay. And you 25 specifically recall that? EFTA00114052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I told - and I said 2 go back. Go back around. Do another count. 3 And then send me a new count slip. 4 : That says 72 versus 73? 5 : That says 72. Yes. 6 : So you instructed them to do 7 a recount. 8 : Right. 9 : Do you know if they did the 10 recount? 11 : I don't know if they 12 did a recount because like I said -- 13 : Okay. 14 : I was in the 15 process. I had to continue with the count. I 16 had to verify and get some information 17 regarding this inmate in R&D. But I have no 18 reason to disbelieve that they didn't do the 19 count. 20 : Now what if they -? 21 they already knew there was 72 and one guy, 22 would they be required to actually do a new 23 count? Or just fill out a new count slip? 24 : I told them to do a 25 new count. Just to make sure. 87 EFTA00114053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : So you told them to 2 actually do a new count? 3 : Yeah. I told them to 4 do a new count. 5 : And they were 6 instructions you provided to Thomas - or a 7 male. You don't know specifically if it was a 8 males voice? 9 : Right. 10 : Okay. 11 : Right. But yeah, I 12 said, you know, what did you all count. He 13 said we counted 72. And I was like well you 14 know, count again. And then send me - redo 15 your count slip and just send me another count 16 slip. Because I'm going to - while I verify 17 this other information. 18 : Okay. And the fact that 19 there's only the two people in the SHU - Thomas 20 and Noel - you believe it to have been Thomas. 21 : Right. 22 : Okay. 23 : And to be honest with 24 you, I'm giving myself some time so that I can 25 figure out whether or not -. I want to know EFTA00114054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 whether or not this guy is actually in SHU. 2 : Sure. 3 : Or um, in R&D. So 4 I'm like you know just count again and make 5 sure just in case. I'm saying to myself. I'm 6 not saying this to him. I'm thinking to 7 myself, just in case, I called. And there's 8 nobody down there. I wanted to make sure that 9 this is actually the count. 10 : Sure. 11 : There. 12 : And I want to make sure 13 so that something else is clear. When you as a 14 lieutenant are conducting rounds, that you're 15 required once per shift, that's rounds for 16 employees. Not conducting rounds with the COs 17 for inmates. So is your round to go around to 18 your employees to make sure? That's your 19 round? As opposed to participating in a count 20 or a round with the COs conducting of inmates? 21 Do you follow -- 22 : We're not -. 23 : -- what I'm asking? 24 : We are not required 25 to go to each individual cell and look at the EFTA00114055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 inmates. When we make rounds, we get with the 2 officers. We make sure that -. I mean if we 3 choose to do that we can. But -. 4 : But there's no 5 requirement? For your requirement, that one 6 per shift of round. That's to do rounds with 7 your officer - or with your staff - as opposed 8 to conducting a round with them? 9 : No. There was 10 nothing here said to us or in policy telling us 11 that we needed to go around -- 12 : Sure. 13 : -- on each housing 14 unit to each individual cell and check on the 15 inmates. If we chose to do that based upon 16 something that we knew wasn't right or 17 something that we had heard or something like 18 that during the course of our shift. Then that 19 - and we felt as though we needed to double 20 check on it. Because our officers are our eyes 21 and ears. And during that time, we didn't' 22 have a whole lot of time. We would spend half 23 of our shift just trying to fill overtime. At 24 that time. 25 : So are you supposed to EFTA00114056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 though? So if they do a count, are you 2 supposed to do a count with them during your 3 shift? 4 : I can't remember at 5 that time if we were required to do at least 6 one count because one count per shift is what 7 we're required to do as a lieutenant. 8 : One count with inmates? 9 : No. One count in the 10 control center. 11 : Okay. So you -. You're 12 not putting -. You're never putting your eyes 13 on the inmates doing a count with -. For 14 instance, in this case, if Noel and Thomas are 15 in the SHU, they're doing a 12:00 a.m. count, a 16 3:00 a.m. count, and a 5:00 a.m. count. Are 17 you doing any counts with them? 18 : No I'm not doing any. 19 : Okay. 20 : I'm not - and it 21 wouldn't be for just SHU. It would be for any 22 housing unit. 23 : Sure. 24 : Period. But -. 25 : But for this instance, EFTA00114057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 specifically, I'm talking about the 12:00 a.m. 2 count, a 3:00 a.m. count, and a 5:00 a.m. 3 count. Is there any requirement for any 4 lieutenants that are on that you have oversight 5 over the SHU to do a count with them? 6 : No. 7 : No. 8 : No. 9 : And there wasn't at that 10 time? 11 : No. 12 : And you hadn't done one 13 at that time with them? 14 : No. 15 : So your requirements are 16 geared toward staff members not toward inmates? 17 : Our -. 18 : Because you're an officer 19 You're responsible for the staff. The 20 staff are responsible for the inmates. 21 Correct? 22 : As a lieutenant, we 23 were required to do one count per shift in the 24 control center. We're required to take one 25 count. EFTA00114058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 : Sure. And this is the 2 one you did. You did the 12:00 a.m.? 3 : This is the one count 4 5 : And this is why you 6 reviewed it and said, I've got the get this 7 thing right. 8 : Well during the 9 course of taking this count, that came up. 10 : Okay. 11 : And of course we had 12 to address it because we can't house the count 13 saying one thing in some area and it's not 14 adding up. I can't have an -- 15 : So are they -- 16 : -- inmate -. 17 calling you that day 18 then. So Thomas is calling you and providing 19 your count and that's the count that you did? 20 : That's the -. I was 21 taking this count -. 22 : So he didn't call control 23 - or he called control, but you were the person 24 he spoke with. 25 : Right. EFTA00114059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Gotcha. : Right. Right. 3 : Do you recall that night, did 4 you participate in the 10:00 p.m. count? 5 : Did I do what? 6 : Did you participate - were 7 you there when the 10:00 p.m. count happened? 8 : No. Hm-mm. 9 : So you came on shift after? 10 : I don't know if, I 11 probably was here during -- 12 : But not participating. 13 : -- the 10:00 p.m. 14 count. Yeah. But I didn't take the 10:00 p.m. 15 count. 16 : Question. Do you know when 17 that inmate was removed to R&D? What time? 18 : I have no idea. 19 have no idea. That was done prior to me 20 getting there. 21 : Now let's say the inmate was 22 removed prior to the 10:00 p.m. count. Would 23 the 10:00 p.m. count have been wrong? If they 24 reported? 25 : I have no - I can't EFTA00114060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 answer that. I don't know. 2 : No-no. But you fixed it. 3 They called you, they asked for the -. Let me 4 show you the 10 - two more documents. Let's do 5 -. Take a look at this document. What is 6 that? 7 : This is the 1-1 f-, 8 August 9, 2019 at 9:33. 9 : Okay. And what's the 10 count for the SHU at that point? 11 : It's 73. 12 : 73? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : And what's the count for RA? 15 RA being the R&D? 16 : It's saying zero. 17 : Okay. If the inmate was 18 moved prior to this count, to R&D, would 19 technically the count for the SHU have been 20 wrong? 21 : That depends on what 22 the officers were told because like I said, RA 23 is not a housing unit. So no officer would 24 have been moving an inmate to RA on their own. 25 Something -. EFTA00114061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : Okay. : There had to have 3 been some guidance that - whereby they was told 4 because this inmate was there all night with a 5 watch on him. 6 : Which inmate? The one in 7 R&D? 8 : The inmate that was 9 taken to -- 10 : R&D? 11 : R&D. Yes. The 12 inmate had a watch. There was a staff member 13 on the inmate. You can't -- 14 : What was the watch for? 15 : -- just put an inmate 16 in R&D and just leave him there. There's 17 nobody to watch him. R&D staff leaves at 18 10:00. So you can't just leave an inmate there 19 with nobody watching him. 20 : So Maybe I'm saying this 21 wrong. I'm just trying to get clarification. 22 When you do - when a CO does a count - can they 23 account - but in their count - can they account 24 for an inmate that they do not get their eyes 25 on? EFTA00114062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 : Depending on who gave 2 them the instruction as to how that inmate was 3 going to be accounted for. 4 : What about? 5 : If that - say - if 6 that. If that inmate was in R&D at the 10:00 7 count, depending on how they were guided 8 because I mean they know that an inmate can't 9 be in R&D by himself either. So depending on 10 how that inmate was being counted, they may 11 have been given instructions by somebody to 12 ghost him. And count him in SHU. I don't 13 know. I can't explain that. 14 : So COs have the ability, it's 15 not per policy, COs have the ability to do 16 that? 17 : To do what? 18 : If they don't have eyes on, 19 if they can get instructions from another 20 person saying no, report it as your count? 21 : That would have to be 22 someone in their chain of command that would 23 advise them to do that. 24 : Who? Do you know? 25 : It would be someone EFTA00114063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 over the lieutenant's head because no 2 lieutenant is going to - that I knew at the 3 time - that I worked with at the time - would 4 have an inmate in a different area knowing that 5 that inmate was not going to be coming back to 6 that housing unit. 7 : So the key right now is we 8 don't know when the inmate was moved. Right? 9 : I don't know when. I 10 can't tell you when the inmate was moved. That 11 happened before I got there. What specific 12 time he was moved, I don't know. 13 : Let's say the inmate was 14 moved and they didn't' get the authorization 15 from the captain. Would the count have been 16 wrong? 17 : I don't -. You know 18 as far as I know, it could have been someone 19 above the captain. I don't know. I can't 20 provide you with an adequate answer because -- 21 : No problem. 22 : I don't 23 : We're going to go past that. 24 : Okay. 25 : So I'm going to show you. EFTA00114064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 This is just for clarification purposes, just 2 for our records. I'm going to show you one 3 more document. What is F? 4 : This is an I- 5 August 9, 2019. The time is 1541. 6 : Okay. And that should be the 7 4:00 p.m. count? 8 : Yes. This would have 9 been for the 4:00 count. 10 : What is the lineup on top? 11 It says A-T-T-Y. What is that? 12 : What? 13 : Up here. Up here it says A- 14 T-T-Y. 15 : Oh, that's attorney 16 conference. 17 : Okay. And what is outcount? 18 On - towards the right. Over here. 19 : Well.... 20 : This one right here. 21 : The outcount is the 22 . This is for that section that you're 23 pointing to. That would be the number of 24 inmates that are not in their respective 25 housing units from these areas - the different EFTA00114065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 areas that are designated here. 2 : Is it possibly because 3 they're leaving? 4 : From the different 5 housing -. I have -. It could be a number of 6 things. 7 : Okay. At 4:00 p.m. what was 8 the count in the SHU? 9 : Um, 75. 10 : 75? 11 : Yes. 12 : Okay. And what is the count 13 for RA? 14 : Zero. 15 : Okay. So that's R&D. 16 There's nobody there. Where is - according to 17 that if you flip through it. Where is Epstein 18 at that point? 19 : It looks like he's In 20 attorney conference. 21 : Okay. No problem. We're 22 going to keep going. 23 : Okay. 24 : Um.... On August 10th. 25 Right. When did you go to the SHU? EFTA00114066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 : Like I said earlier, 2 I think it was -. 3 : Can you do me a favor? Can 4 you sign it and date it just like before? 5 : Initial and date on the 6 top. 7 : Initial. 8 : Which one? 9 : All of them. 10 : Oh. Since I showed you. 11 : Okay. 12 : I'll take that. When did you 13 -? Did you make a round into the SHU on August 14 10th? 15 : Yes. 16 : What time? 17 : I don't remember what 18 time. It was like halfway between my shift 19 later on in the morning. 20 : Did you speak to -? 21 : Probably about 4:-- 22 something. Between 4:00 and 5:00 I guess. 23 : Do you recall who the COs 24 were on duty? 25 : Yes. Thomas and EFTA00114067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 Noel. 2 : Okay. Did you speak to them? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. And everything was 5 good? Did they say have any complaints or 6 anything like that? 7 : No. They were fine. 8 : Do you recall your 9 conversation at all? 10 : I don't recall my 11 conversation with them, but I spoke to them for 12 a minute because I stopped there. I went up to 13 10 South and I made my rounds up there. And I 14 came back and I spoke with them again before I 15 left. 16 : So you spoke with them 17 twice? 18 : Yeah. I spoke with 19 them initially. And I told them you know when 20 I get back out -. I'm going to run up to 10 21 South and make my rounds and sign my books and 22 stuff up there. And then I'll get back with 23 you guys. I'll come back on my way down. 24 Because I needed to sign their round sheets. 25 : Okay. EFTA00114068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 : Now you mentioned that you 2 don't know - you never heard of the requirement 3 for Epstein needing a cellmate. Right? 4 : Right. 5 : So you didn't know. 6 According to what you said before, you didn't 7 even know the COs knew that requirement. 8 : If I didn't know, I 9 know they didn't know. And according to that 10 because I don't even see -. Where is that 11 email? Because I want to see who did they 12 actually send that to. If it says on the email 13 who they sent that to. 14 : It looks like they sent 15 it up to all the officers, lieutenants and. 16 : This says suicide 17 watch/psych observation update. 18 : So on or around July 19 30th, Epstein came off of the suicide 20 observation and was placed back into the SHU. 21 And this was supposed to be the email saying 22 that he was required to have a cellmate while 23 he was in the SHU. 24 : Yeah, but this isn't 25 MYM all. EFTA00114069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : Right. So you said you 2 think it should have gone to all staff. 3 : Yeah-yeah. 4 : So I guess what I'm -. 5 : This is only 6 addressed to suicide - whoever is in that 7 group. It looks like a group that they made 8 up. Because I never heard of that group 9 before. Suicide watch/psych -. 10 : You never got the email from 11 them? 12 : Sure. So -. 13 : Slash psych 14 observation update. I guess that's a group. 15 : So these are the -. So 16 the one - pages one through three. These are 17 the people that they I guess placed in that -- 18 : That they placed in 19 that group. 20 : -- group. And it looks 21 like it's all the lieutenants and the officers 22 in the institution as opposed to the COs 23 themselves. 24 : You mean specific 25 officers? Specific staff? Because I can EFTA00114070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 assure you that's not all of them. 2 : That's not all of them. 3 Yeah. So I don't know how they actually chose 4 it. But you said you know you were on it but 5 you don't recall receiving it. 6 : I do not recall 7 receiving that. 8 : Now do you know -? 9 don't know how it works here. I mean are you 10 in front of your computer? Do you read your 11 emails? How is that? 12 : During that time, I 13 will be honest with you. I didn't have time to 14 read any emails because in addition to not 15 having a lot of staff, we had a bunch of 16 incidents that were going on during that time 17 as well. 18 : Okay. 19 : A bunch of body 20 alarms and stuff like that that was going on. 21 And because of the fact that we were so short- 22 handed, you didn't have time to read emails and 23 stuff at the time. You just had too much to do 24 with the time in your shift. It was just way 25 too much. EFTA00114071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 106 : Sure. : It was way too much. 3 : So although this was sent 4 to you, you don't think you probably even 5 clicked on it? 6 : I got a lot of emails 7 during that time that I can assure you I didn't 8 read. 9 : Sure. Alright. So you 10 were unaware. How does it work -? Just can 11 you walk me through specifically on, you know, 12 if Reyes the cellie. Did you know that Epstein 13 had a cellmate? 14 : I didn't know Epstein 15 had a cellmate. 16 : So you didn't even know 17 he had a cellmate at all? 18 : I didn't know if he 19 had a cellmate or not. 20 : Okay. 21 : When all of this 22 happened, it, of course, later came out that he 23 had a cellmate and the inmate was removed. But 24 as far as me having personal knowledge of 25 whether or not he had a cellmate, I didn't know EFTA00114072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 if he had a cellmate or not. I assumed he had 2 a cellmate. 3 : Now being that you know 4 they sent this email. You said who should have 5 advised you at least at some point, hey he 6 needs a cellmate. Where was the communication 7 breakdown there? 8 : It wasn't just me. 9 It should have been everybody. 10 : Sure. So what my question 11 is though, who is responsible for that? 12 : The - you would think 13 that psychology would have called us or 14 somebody should have been making sure. 15 : Okay. So let's go 16 through that. From psychology, who should 17 who dropped the ball here? 18 : Well I'm not going to 19 say anybody dropped the ball because it's all 20 about responsibilities to -. 21 : But somebody - psychology 22 I guess made the note. So is it the person 23 that's on the email, this 24 Should have she gone around and aside from 25 sending this email should have she spoken to EFTA00114073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 people or had a meeting? What should have 2 happened? 3 : I mean if that's what 4 she -. I just feel as though they that - to 5 communicate Like I said originally. My 6 whole thing was Epstein should have been placed 7 on 10 South to begin with because he was that 8 type of inmate that checked all the boxes for - 9 10 : Sure. 11 : -- someone that 12 should have been placed on 10 South. 13 : And that's going to be 14 one of my follow-up questions is what the 15 difference between the SHU and 10 South. But 16 specifically to this, like what should have 17 psychology done differently? 18 : I would have made 19 sure - I just would have -. I just would have 20 made sure that everybody -. I never even would 21 have sent Epstein back to -. I would have 22 never even put him back in that position again. 23 : So if he had -. 24 : If he had a cellmate 25 because even saying that he had a cellmate. EFTA00114074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 Even telling somebody that he should have had a 2 cellmate. Still wouldn't have prevented him 3 from trying to harm himself. We had just went 4 through that. 5 : Sure. 6 : We - that was a 7 scenario when they got him. That got to the 8 memo being done. 9 : Okay. So -. 10 : You know? He had a 11 cellmate then. 12 : The other lieutenants 13 though in this case, they knew that he was 14 required to have a cellmate. Correct? 15 According to -- 16 : Yes. 17 : -- there? So it sounds 18 From reviewing the other interviews, it 19 looks like you were the one that didn't know. 20 Everyone else knew. Do you know why that would 21 have been? Who should have made sure you knew 22 that he needed a cellmate? 23 : I would think whoever 24 knew that he needed an inmate. 25 : So that's what I'm EFTA00114075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 saying. Everyone else know. So like all the 2 other lieutenants and the captain. They all 3 said that they were aware that he was required 4 to have a cellmate. So the question -. So I 5 don't know if they got the information from the 6 email, if there was an all-hands. Who should 7 have made sure that you knew that he had a 8 cellmate? 9 : Okay. So if they 10 knew that. If everybody is saying that they 11 knew he should have had a cellmate, then why 12 didn't he have one? 13 : That's the -. 14 : How did we get to 15 that? 16 : That's the reason why 17 we're talking with you. That is the big issue 18 of why didn't he have one? Who? Where was the 19 communication breakdown? 20 : I don't know. 21 : So should have the 22 captain told you that? Should have the person 23 who relieved you that day? Should have that 24 person told you? Hey just so you know, Epstein 25 doesn't have a cellmate. EFTA00114076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 : It would have been 2 nice to have, when I got relieved for someone 3 to have said yeah, by the way, we got this 4 email saying that we were notified the Epstein 5 now requires to have a cellmate. Yeah. That 6 would have been real helpful. 7 : So looking at the Friday, 8 August 9th. Was it -? It looks like 9 Was that the person who relieved you? As the 10 ops lieutenant? It looks like he was the ops 11 lieutenant. 12 : You relieved him. 13 : Yeah. I would have - 14 15 : No. She relieved him. 16 It was August 9th. 17 : Yeah. That would 18 have been who I would have relieved. 19 : Or he would have relieved 20 you. Correct? Because that's August 9th. You 21 started August 10th at 12:00 a.m. So let's see 22 how it shows here. 23 : I would have relieved 24 because was evening watch. 25 : But this was August 9th. EFTA00114077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 And you started August 10th, 12:00 a.m. 2 : Right. So that would 3 have bene evening watch of -. 4 : You would have relieved 5 6 7 8 9 10 him. Correct. relieved him. told you? : Right. I would have : And so should have he : I would - I mean -. 11 : How would then -? Or 12 should have -? would have been gone. 13 So I'm assuming he would have been the one? 14 : Let me tell you 15 something. In the real world in a real 16 institution that was running in the manner in 17 which it should. 18 : Sure. 19 : Sure. That would 20 have -- 21 : And you're not saying -- 22 -- occurred. 23 that he did anything 24 wrong. 25 : And I'm not -. EFTA00114078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 : Let's get this place up 2 to running as best as possible. 3 : No. Let me -. 4 : Where should have this 5 communication occurred? 6 : Let's make something 7 clear right now. 8 : Yeah. 9 : I'm not here to cover 10 for anybody. 11 : Yeah-yeah-yeah. 12 : I'm not here to make 13 excuses for anybody or any of that. 14 : Right. 15 : What I'm trying to 16 get over to you is that at that particular time 17 when - even before 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Um....this incident 20 happened with Epstein. Even before the 21 suicide. We were so busy with a number of 22 different things. 23 : Sure. 24 : We were here when we 25 were finding shanks every - an unusual amount EFTA00114079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 of shanks, cell phones, drugs. Inmates were 2 going out of their mind on drugs and all this 3 other stuff. We had inmates fighting, inmates 4 getting stabbed, inmates getting slashed. 5 There were -. In addition to everything else 6 that we had to take care of. We were doing 7 uses of forces. We didn't' have adequate staff 8 to even do a use of force or even to respond to 9 a body alarm a lot of times. There were 10 incidents where we as lieutenants were the only 11 people here and had to do things. So -. 12 : So there's just 13 overwhelming -. You guys were just completely 14 overwhelmed. In the weeds. 15 : We -. At that time, 16 there was just so much going on. 17 : Right. 18 : You would be hell- 19 bent to stay abreast of every little thing that 20 was going on. You just -. When your relief 21 came, you know, you was like let me get some 22 fresh air. 23 : Just let me -. In this 24 circumstance. We're going to try to reign it 25 in specifically to -. EFTA00114080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 : If everything was 2 going fine -- 3 : So how -. 4 : -- and on a good day. 5 Yes. 6 : Say he was - Reyes - 7 Epstein's inmate was released you know sometime 8 between 8:00 and 2:00. So I'm assuming the way 9 it should have worked is the CO should have 10 notified a lieutenant. The lieutenant maybe 11 should have notified the ops lieutenant. The 12 ops lieutenant should have notified the 13 captain. Is that the way it should have worked 14 in a perfect world? 15 : It depends on who is 16 here. 17 : But should -. So -- 18 : I'm saying that's -- 19 : -- that's why we're 20 looking at the 9th. 21 : -- what I would have 22 done. 23 : Right. 24 : I can't tell you what 25 somebody -- EFTA00114081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Because - but would that 2 3 : -- else would have 4 done. 5 : -- be standard operating 6 procedure? That's the way it works? 7 : That's not standing. 8 That's just what I would have done. 9 : Okay. 10 : Just to make sure 11 that -. 12 : So let's say -. 13 : Just to answer the 14 questions that I would have had regarding that. 15 : So -. 16 : I can't explain -. I 17 can't tell you what somebody else would have 18 done. 19 : So let's say -- 20 : Or should have done. 21 for instance. 22 He was on the looks like 8:00 to 2:00 p.m. 23 Let's say he knew that Reyes was gone and 24 Epstein was required to have a cellmate. What 25 should have he done? Should have he notified 116 EFTA00114082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 and should have he notified 2 used to -. If 3 he wasn't at that time, used to be the 4 SHU lieutenant. So probably would have 5 told them put somebody else in the cell with 6 him. 7 : Okay. 8 : You know? 9 : So you think he would 10 have just taken immediate action? 11 : I think he probably 12 would have said just put somebody in the cell 13 with him and called and say hey this 14 dude don't have a cellie. I took care of it or 15 whatever. 16 : Now what about if -- 17 : Or maybe he -. 18 : -- the executive staff 19 wants to have a hand in picking and choosing 20 who it is that Epstein is assigned to because 21 of his high-profile status? Should have 22 still done that temporarily? Or should have 23 just notified 24 : That is - that wasn't 25 written in stone. EFTA00114083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 : Okay. 2 : That is something 3 that I would have done. 4 : You would have done what? 5 : I would - that's 6 something that I would have done. 7 : What, temporarily? 8 : I'm not saying that 9 that's across the board that every operations 10 lieutenant that was here that day and was that 11 found themselves in that position. I'm not 12 going to say that's what -. There's no 13 standard procedure for that situation because 14 that's out of the ordinary. First of all, if 15 we're going to go by what should have been 16 done, Epstein should have been on 10 South. 17 That's what should have been done. 18 : Okay. 19 : Period. 20 : And what -? 21 : Now everything when 22 23 : So you keep on going back 24 to 10 South. 25 : Right because -- EFTA00114084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : What the difference 2 between -- 3 : -- that's how -- 4 : -- 10 South -? 5 -- important it is. 6 : So what's the difference 7 between 10 South and the SHU? 8 : The difference 9 between SHU is that SHU is for general 10 population inmates. 11 : Okay. 12 : You know. You're not 13 guaranteed to have a cellie there. You know. 14 So you may have a cellie and you may not. 15 Epstein was a high-profile inmate. All high- 16 profile inmates they usually assign to 10 17 South. Epstein had just -. Even before he 18 committed suicide. Everybody knew and that's 19 not just here. That's people in the region. 20 You know all the way up to Donald Trump knew 21 Epstein was here. You know. And when you look 22 at Donald Trump all the way down the line, you 23 know, to the regional director, the 24 correctional services administrator. All those 25 people should have been involved in where EFTA00114085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 Epstein was placed when he got here. Now that 2 you know because they failed to do their job, 3 you know, and place him on 9 South where he 4 never should have been to begin with. 5 : Nine South or 10? Oh 6 they put him in 9 South. 7 : 9 South. 8 : Okay. 9 : They placed him in 10 regular old SHU. 11 : Okay. 12 : For inmates that 13 faced disciplinary action. Inmates that are 14 being separated from other inmates on 15 protective custody. Those to - things of that 16 nature. 17 : So -. 18 : If he -. 19 : In 10 South, do inmates 20 all have cellmates in 10 South? 21 : Inmates on 10 South 22 don't have cellmates. But. 23 : Okay. 24 : What they do have up 25 there And I'm telling you he should have EFTA00114086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/. 1 been put up there from day one. Most 2 especially after he attempted suicide. So if 3 you didn't place him up there from day one. 4 When he attempted suicide with a cellmate. 5 Okay? Let's not forget that because when he 6 attempted suicide, he had a cellmate. 7 : Yeah but isn't the reason 8 why he didn't - wasn't successful partly 9 because of the cellmate? My understanding was 10 because once you're - once you commit suicide, 11 you want another person to try to prevent it 12 from actually a suicide being successful. So 13 if they want someone in there to basically 14 watch him, wouldn't they want him in the SHU 15 versus 10 South? 16 : You're not guaranteed 17 that -. 18 : You're not guaranteed but 19 I think that the purpose of him being required 20 a cellmate was that they want someone in there. 21 And that's why they wanted him vetted. Because 22 the purpose was so that someone could be 23 watching him partly. If he's trying to hang 24 himself, there's obviously going to be another 25 cellmate in there saying what are you going? EFTA00114087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 : First of all, an 2 inmate don't owe you nothing. 3 : Sure. 4 : Another inmate don't 5 owe you anything. And another inmate by policy 6 is not to be supervising another inmate. So by 7 you saying - because I don't even agree with 8 inmate companions. 9 : Okay. 10 : I've known a lot of 11 inmate companions who would antagonize the 12 person on watch just so they hang their damn 13 selves. Okay? 14 : Okay. 15 : So for you to sit 16 here and put somebody who you know is as high- 17 profile and as important as everybody made 18 Epstein out to be at that time, you relied on a 19 random inmate to keep him safe. I mean, that's 20 You're fooling yourself. 21 : Okay. 22 : You're fooling 23 yourself. 24 : Okay. So just for your 25 own personal opinion was that he should have EFTA00114088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 been on 10 South and he shouldn't have had an 2 inmate at all. He should have just had closer 3 eyes on by staff members? 4 : That's not my 5 personal opinion. That's my professional 6 opinion. 7 : Right. 8 : Because I've worked 9 in this environment -- 10 : Sure. 11 : -- long enough to 12 know -- 13 : Okay. 14 : -- that if somebody 15 said important to you -- 16 : Where psychology -. 17 : -- and you wanted to 18 keep them safe, and for the type of inmate that 19 he was, that was the best environment for him. 20 They have cameras up there in every cell. And 21 they have a staff member -. 22 : There's cameras in the 23 cell themselves? 24 : There's cameras in 25 each individual cell. And there is - the EFTA00114089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 officers have monitors right by their desk. 2 : Okay. 3 : So. 4 : So if they would have had 5 eyes on at all times. 6 : They would have had 7 eyes on him at all times. 8 : Awesome. Okay. So 9 alright. I just wanted to get -. 10 : And I mean 11 : I really wanted to find 12 out though, in this specific circumstance, who 13 should have told you? That's the main 14 question. 15 : I mean a lot of 16 people. 17 : Who should have informed 18 you. 19 : A lot of people could 20 have told me. 21 : Right. 22 : A lot of people could 23 have told me. 24 : And you didn't have any 25 conversations with anyone about that EFTA00114090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 requirement? Because again, it seems like 2 everybody else knew. You didn't. So I'm just 3 trying to figure out where that communication 4 breakdown -. 5 : I don't know where it 6 7 : - occurred. 8 : -- occurred. 9 : Okay. 10 : To be honest with 11 you. 12 : Okay. Would have it been 13 the captain is responsible for that? Or is it 14 in this instance, since you said you didn't 15 know at all, should have told 16 told you? 17 : I don't -. Look. 18 Look. I'm not going to sit here and tell you 19 what somebody could have, should have, would 20 have done. Because like I said, there was a 21 lot of things going on at this institution. 22 we're going to say "shoulda-woulda-coulda," 23 then we should have had adequate staffing. 24 : Yep. 25 : We shouldn't have had EFTA00114091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 staff here that were dead on their feet. 2 : Sure. 3 : You know. Trying to 4 watch an inmate. And when all those 5 circumstances that was going on, there was a 6 lot of things that we should have been doing 7 that wasn't done. So it's not just about what 8 happened to Epstein. It's about everything 9 else surrounding his death that occurred that 10 didn't happen. 11 : That's one point. 12 : That should have been 13 occurring that didn't happen. 14 : Okay. Now let's - I'm going 15 to take it out. Let's say you're on shift. 16 Inmate attempted to commit suicide. You know 17 there's an issue with the inmate. You're 18 leaving the shift. Do you have a conversation 19 with the person you're relieving - I mean 20 whoever's relieving you? Do you have a 21 conversation with that person and advise then. 22 what happened during your shift? 23 : Yes. I would -. 24 : Why? Why would you do it? 25 Just to, what reason -. EFTA00114092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 : Because look. Let me 2 explain something to you. 3 : No-no-no. I just need an 4 explanation. 5 : No-no-no. I'm going 6 to give you an explanation. But I'm going to 7 give you the explanation that best suits the 8 question that you're -- 9 : Okay. 10 : -- asking me. When 11 we do these pass downs, everybody is different. 12 Some people tell you verbatim everything that 13 happened. Some people don't. That's just the 14 nature of the beast. You know. I could sit 15 here all day and say somebody should have told 16 me something. Or you know if they had the 17 information. But when you've got so many 18 things on your mind and you've dealt with so 19 many things during the course of the day, you 20 know, people don't want to continue to stand 21 there and do it. People forget. I mean they 22 could have been standing there talking to me 23 for five minutes with all the things that go on 24 during the course of the day. You know. 25 That's not just here. That's every place I've EFTA00114093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 been when it comes to pass down. Some people 2 will tell you a bunch of stuff depending on 3 when it happened during the course of the day 4 and whatever else came behind it or came before 5 it. People they -- 6 : No, I understand that. No- 7 no. I just -. 8 : -- don't always 9 remember. 10 : I get that. But let's just 11 say as Agent already mentioned. If 12 there was instructions form the captain down 13 and the lieutenant. Let's say Lieutenant 14 was aware of the instructions, and was clear 15 instructions that Epstein had to have a 16 cellmate. And he knew that the cellmate was 17 removed. What was -. Let's just say in a 18 perfect world. What was his role? When he 19 left the shift. What should he have done? 20 would have 21 : No-no-no. It's not "would 22 have." What should he have done? 23 : They would have 24 already had -. If you're telling me that this 25 inmate left at what time? EFTA00114094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 : Well he left the cell at 2 8:30 and by 1:30 he was gone from the 3 institution. 4 : Okay. So by the time 5 I got here at 10:00 at night, he should have 6 already had. That should have already been 7 taken care of. 8 : Okay. And that's what 9 we're asking. Who should have taken care of 10 it? 11 : The first person to 12 have known that he didn't have a cellie. 13 : So if was that 14 person, should have he, what should have he 15 done? doesn't work for the BOP anymore. 16 So we're just asking what should have happened? 17 : It doesn't matter 18 even if he was still -- 19 : I know. I just -. 20 : -- working for the 21 Bureau. I mean. If someone knew for a fact 22 that he was supposed to have had a cellie. And 23 they received some type of information or they 24 came aware of the fact that he didn't. And 25 that inmate was never coming back. Depending EFTA00114095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 on that, they should have questioned to see 2 what was the circumstances surrounding that. 3 When they determine what the circumstances were 4 based upon the fact that if he was coming back 5 or whether or not he wasn't coming back, then 6 they should have made arrangements for him to 7 get another cellie. 8 : Okay. I'm done. Can I see 9 the roster one more time? 10 : Yeah. And then let's 11 stay specific to your instance, so we don't 12 have to ask you like what should have they 13 done? So as far as yours. If you - and again 14 you weren't. But if you were aware that he was 15 required to have a cellmate. Was there any 16 action that you should have or could have taken 17 between the hours that you were working? 18 : If I -. 19 : Could cell mates have 20 been reassigned at that time of night? 21 : Morning watch is not 22 the time to be moving inmates around because it 23 presents too much of a safety issue. 24 : Sure. 25 : And being that, if we EFTA00114096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 don't have adequate staffing, then Morning 2 watch, period. You're not even supposed to be 3 opening doors on morning watch. 4 : So that's my question. 5 If had told you, which obviously he 6 didn't. Correct? 7 : Correct. 8 : If he had, could have you 9 even taken action? 10 : I would have 11 contacted -. Like I said. I would have called 12 or psychology or somebody. 13 : So even at that time of 14 night? 15 : Even at that - yes. 16 Even at that time of the night. 17 : Okay. 18 : To figure out what's 19 going on with I mean I can't justify just 20 leaving him up there without a cellie if he's 21 supposed to have one. How am I going to 22 justify that? And that's not even something 23 that I would even risk. 24 : What about the COs? If 25 the COs knew - so Noel and Thomas - that he was EFTA00114097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 required to have a cellmate. Should have they 2 notified you? 3 : They should have 4 notified me. If they knew that he was supposed 5 to have a cellie and he didn't, yes. And they 6 would have. 7 : And in this -? 8 : If they had known 9 that they would have. 10 : In this instance they 11 never notified you though. Correct? 12 : No. 13 : So they didn't tell you, 14 and during this 4:00 a.m., it sounds like you 15 talked to them twice. They never told you that 16 Epstein didn't' have a cellmate? 17 : No. 18 : Did they discuss Epstein 19 with you at all? 20 : No. 21 : Okay. And did they - 22 when they called control or any communications 23 you had over the telephone - did they ever 24 discuss Epstein? 25 : No. EFTA00114098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 : Or the cellmate? 2 : No. 3 : Okay. 4 : No. 5 : So these are the 6 questions. We just want more like yes-no like 7 this. And I don't mean to rush you, but we 8 have a bunch of other interviews we have to 9 conduct. So if we can keep to those like yes- 10 no type of things would be so appreciated on 11 our end. 12 : Well I can assure you 13 that everything is not going to be a flat yes 14 or no answer. 15 : Absolutely. I 100% get 16 that. 17 : Because nothing in 18 this business is -- 19 : Right. 20 : -- flat yes or no. 21 It's all off the cuff. So. 22 : Absolutely. And that's 23 what we're just saying. Like if knew, 24 what should have he done. It sounds like what 25 you're saying is he should have notified the EFTA00114099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 captain and he should have made sure a cellmate 2 was put in there. If knew, same thing. 3 He should have notified the captain, he should 4 have put someone there. If you knew, you 5 should have notified the caption, you should 6 have put someone there. That's just the kind 7 of what the ops lieutenant does. Would it be 8 basically the ops lieutenant if it came up to 9 that person? They notify the captain. They 10 make sure it's done. Is that a fair 11 assessment? 12 : Yeah. That's a fair 13 assessment. And you're just notifying - and 14 the only reason why we're letting the captain 15 know is to let him know. Hey, you know you 16 guys, we keep telling you this guy should be on 17 10 South, but you keep him on SHU. And we keep 18 running into these close - really, really, 19 close calls. 20 : So the staff -. 21 : So that's one reason 22 why -- 23 : Is the staff ever -? 24 : -- you notify them. 25 : Did you ever have any EFTA00114100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 discussions about him needing to be 10 South 2 with anyone prior to -? 3 : Everybody was telling 4 them that he needed to be on 10 South. 5 Everybody knew that. 6 : Alright. So prior to him 7 even dying, you know, prior to August 10th. It 8 was the captain and above were notified, hey we 9 need to get him on 10 South? 10 : Let me tell you 11 something. If we as lieutenants are 12 responsible for knowing everything that we're 13 supposed to know. And we're running this 14 institution off the cuff, we don't know what's 15 going to happen here at any given time of the 16 day or night. If we're required to know that, 17 you think that these cats in the region and in 18 the central office and at the executive staff 19 level don't know the same thing that or more 20 than we know? 21 : So I guess the question 22 is have you ever had any conversation - did you 23 ever have any conversations with the caption 24 yourself at that time? 25 : We've mentioned to EFTA00114101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 them several times that Epstein should be on 10 2 South. 3 : So who did you have 4 conversations with regarding that? 5 : We've - I've never 6 had a conversation with anybody. But during 7 these times, when this stuff was happening, I 8 used to always say you guys need to put Epstein 9 on 10 South. Epstein needs to be on 10 South. 10 : So my question is when 11 you say, "you guys," who were you saying that 12 to? 13 . I would tell 14 15 : So you specifically told 16 17 : I would tell 18 that -. 19 : Do you remember what his 20 responses were? 21 : No. I don't remember 22 what his Apparently, it was nothing. He 23 never got moved. 24 : Right. And that's what I 25 just meant. Did you say like did he EFTA00114102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 acknowledge at least that information that was 2 provided to him? Hey, he should be on 10 3 South? 4 : I don't know if he 5 did or not. 6 : But you do recall 7 actually telling him that? 8 : We all used to say 9 that Epstein needs to be 10 South. 10 : Did you do it with a 11 group of other lieutenants when you say, "we 12 all used to?" 13 : No. 14 : But you yourself. Do you 15 recall at least on one occasion or more that 16 you told that? 17 : Yeah. I mentioned to 18 that Epstein should be on 10 South. 19 Yes. 20 : Prior to August 10th? 21 : I don't know what the 22 date was. 23 : I just mean prior to him 24 dying you told him this? 25 : Yes. Prior to him EFTA00114103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 dying. And after he died. I mean. 2 : Okay. Sorry, I'll hand 3 it back over to you. I apologize for 4 hijacking. 5 : Do you have anything else on 6 that topic? Because I'm going to jump through 7 that. 8 : No. The main things, 9 again, are these about the email. Why it 10 wasn't received. The cellmate requirements 11 which she said that she didn't, who was 12 responsible for telling her that? What action 13 should have been taken. What did she know -? 14 : That's (Indiscernible 15 *02:01:29) 16 : Sure. 17 : So I'm just going to jump to 18 a different topic. 19 : And you mentioned how 20 cameras are so important in 10 South. So now 21 we're going to talk about the cameras that were 22 actually in the SHU. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : So basic question. Who had 25 access to see what was happening on the EFTA00114104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 cameras? 2 : What cameras? 3 : The cameras inside the MCC. 4 As a lieutenant did you ever utilize the 5 cameras for your job? 6 : I mean what cameras 7 are you talking about? Because we don't - 8 those of us who have access to cameras don't 9 have access to the same cameras or -. 10 : You want to know about 11 the SHU cameras. 12 : Yeah. It's about the SHU 13 cameras. 14 : Who has access to the SHU 15 cameras? 16 : Control. The control 17 center has access to the SHU cameras. We have 18 access to the SHU cameras. And as far as I 19 know, that's it. 20 : When you say "we," is 21 that the lieutenant's office? 22 : The lieutenant's 23 office. 24 : Do you normally utilize the 25 cameras for your job at all? For you daily EFTA00114105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 routine. Do you ever use it? 2 : If we're looking for 3 - say we're looking for somebody say internal. 4 : Okay. 5 : We may glance at the 6 camera to see if we see them or something like 7 that. But we're not sitting there. We don't 8 even have time to do that. And even if we did, 9 we wouldn't be doing it. We're not sitting up 10 there the whole time during our shift and just 11 looking at the cameras to see what's going on. 12 : No. That's not what I mean. 13 I just want to know. At that time - around 14 that time period, did you know that there were 15 cameras inside the MCC that were not working? 16 : I don't believe I 17 did. 18 : So it -. 19 : Specific to the SHU. 20 : Oh. No. 21 : Did you know the cameras 22 23 : No. 24 : -- in the SHU were -- 25 : No-no-no. EFTA00114106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 -- not working? 2 : No-no-no. I wasn't 3 aware. 4 : So even though you were 5 the lieutenant at that night did you not know - 6 7 : The only cameras that 8 I would know that I would be aware of if 9 they're working or not would be the cameras 10 that I have access to which I can look on the 11 TV monitor and see that they're actively not 12 working at the time. Or one of the other staff 13 members who have access to cameras would call 14 and tell me or say something to me about that 15 camera not working. 16 : And did you know on 17 August 10th during your shift or I guess late 18 August 9th, early August 10th, that any cameras 19 in the SHU were not working? 20 : No. I wasn't aware of 21 that. 22 : As far as you remember, 23 were the live portion of the cameras working in 24 there? The ones that you were able to monitor 25 in real-time. EFTA00114107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 : The camera that we 2 had access to from the lieutenant's office at 3 the time was working. 4 : Would that show you both 5 the staff members as well as the range? 6 : That camera only - 7 that camera was really -. The visibility on it 8 was bad. It has always been bad. 9 : So was it only one camera 10 that you could access from your office of the 11 SHU? 12 : There was only one 13 camera that's up there on that monitor. 14 : Okay. And what does that 15 camera show? 16 : I think it shows like 17 the common area. 18 : Okay. So it doesn't even 19 20 : The SHU. 21 : -- show the range? 22 : The ranges and stuff 23 like that? No. 24 : But are there cameras on 25 the range? EFTA00114108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 : Yes. There's cameras 2 on the range. 3 : So who has access to 4 monitor that? 5 : I mean whoever has it 6 up on their computer -. 7 : Okay. So you could 8 toggle through what you want to look at. 9 : We can't toggle 10 through -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- on our cameras in 13 the lieutenant's office. No. 14 : Okay. 15 : And I don't 16 : So in the lieutenant's 17 office, it's just Would control center? 18 Would they be the ones that would be having 19 eyes on the range? 20 : Nobody is sitting 21 around watching the range. 22 : Sure. 23 : The only people who 24 would be watching the cameras is the officers 25 that's assigned to 10 South. EFTA00114109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 : Okay. 2 : Because they have the 3 monitors right there at their desks. 4 : 10 South or 9 South? 5 : 10 South. 6 : So 10 South watches the 7 SHU as well? 8 : No. Ten South 9 watches the inmates assigned to 10 South. 10 : Oh. Sorry. But specific 11 We're talking specifically to the SHU. So 12 if, for instance, the range -. 13 : No. You asked me who 14 would be watching SHU. Who would have access 15 to those cameras? And I'm telling you the only 16 person who would be watching any cameras and 17 who is required to watch them would be the 18 officers that are assigned to 10 South. 19 Outside of that -- 20 : But my question is -- 21 : -- nobody is watching 22 any camera. 23 : -- so no one is watching 24 it. But who -- 25 : As far as I know. EFTA00114110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 : -- would have had access 2 to it I guess is what we're saying. Who - if 3 someone wanted to look at the range within the 4 special housing unit, who would have access to 5 that camera? 6 : I don't know if 7 control has access to that. 8 : Okay. But your point is 9 no one's watching that. So if it's down, who 10 would know and how? 11 : I would think the 12 people who are responsible for the cameras 13 would know. 14 : And who is responsible 15 for the cameras? 16 : The um, the 17 communication guys. 18 : Do you know who -? 19 : And that would be if 20 they -. I don't even know if they look at 21 every camera every day to make sure that -- 22 : Sure. 23 : -- they operative 24 because usually, staff reports that camera 25 stuff when they notice it. EFTA00114111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 : Well how - so would 2 people in the SHU know that their cameras were 3 down? 4 : I don't know if they 5 would know that. I have no way of knowing 6 that. 7 : You just said if staff 8 reported it. So that's the question would be 9 like, if the range camera in the SHU was down, 10 who would know? Who would they notify? Who 11 was responsible? Do you follow? So how would 12 they know that the range camera was down? 13 : I have no idea how 14 they would know. 15 : You don't know? 16 : Unless they have 17 access to it and they know - they can see it on 18 a monitor or something like that and see that 19 it's not working. I don't know outside of that 20 how they would know. 21 : DO you know -? 22 : Unless they was told. 23 I don't know. 24 : Does the SHU have access 25 to that? EFTA00114112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 : Not that I'm aware 2 of. 3 : Okay. So but you think 4 the communications would be the ones that would 5 know. Who in communications would be 6 responsible for getting it taken care of - 7 fixing the cameras? 8 : If they knew about 9 it? 10 : Right. 11 : The guys that work in 12 communications. 13 : All of them collectively? 14 Or is there one person? 15 : I - look. Look. I 16 don't work in communications. 17 : Sure. 18 : So I don't know if 19 one would know, another one would know, or if 20 they both would know at the same time. I don't 21 know. I can't tell you how another department 22 operates or how they conduct their business. 23 : Okay. Was there someone 24 named Mr. Daniels? (Phonetic Sp. *02:07:26) 25 : Mr. Daniels worked EFTA00114113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 down there. Yes. 2 : Would he be potentially 3 the one responsible for fixing it? 4 : I'm not going to say 5 he would be responsible for fixing it. But if 6 he was notified of it, he would have done it. 7 : What was his -? 8 : Okay. 9 : I mean if that was 10 his job. If that's what people in this 11 institution wanted. 12 : Okay. And what -? 13 : Look. Let me make 14 this clear to you. I don't know what the 15 communications instructions were regarding 16 : And we're not asking you 17 those questions. I'm sorry. We're not asking 18 you -. We're not looking at you to solve all 19 the problems. We just need to know like as far 20 as like if a camera goes down, who fixes it? 21 : If a staff member had 22 access to a camera and that camera went out, we 23 would call the communications department to 24 have them take a look at that camera and to 25 repair it or replace it, to fix it or whatever EFTA00114114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 needed to be done. 2 : And roughly how quickly - 3 : And that depends on 4 who answered the phone. That would be whoever 5 was working down there at the time, depending 6 on which one answered the phone. That's who we 7 would relay that information to. We weren't 8 picky about talking to a specific person. It 9 would be like if they work in that area, then 10 they should be capable of doing whatever it is 11 that we need to do to restore the cameras. Or 12 whatever manner they need to go about getting 13 it done. 14 : How quickly usually does 15 that get resolved? If a camera goes down, do 16 they really get it back up and running pretty 17 quickly? Or does it take days? 18 : If they're here and 19 they can replace it, they replace it on the 20 spot. 21 : ON the spot? 22 : Right. 23 : Would it be abnormal for 24 it to take So if someone reported it on a 25 Thursday, would it be abnormal for them to wait EFTA00114115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 until Monday to fix it? 2 : I don't -. I can't 3 say that because I don't know what the 4 circumstances would be concerning why they're 5 waiting until Monday to do it. 6 : Okay. 7 : During your time as a 8 lieutenant during that time period, did you 9 ever see any cameras down for any extended 10 period of time? 11 : Not that I can recall 12 right at this very moment. 13 : And Mr. Daniels. What was 14 his position? Do you remember? 15 : He's the 16 communications officer. I think that's his 17 title. 18 : Do you know his first 19 name? 20 : No. 21 : I'm going to jump. 22 : Yeah. Please. 23 : Do you recall when you came 24 that evening August 9th. That evening when you 25 came on the shift. Do you recall hearing about EFTA00114116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein making a phone call? 2 : (Indiscernible 3 *02:09:51). 4 : Do you recall that? 5 : No. 6 : Okay. Is it normal practice 7 -? I'm just going to -. Is it normal practice 8 -? Let's say an inmate had to make a phone 9 call. And the inmate doesn't have that line, 10 you know the PIN set up for them, is it normal 11 for an officer to use the legal line to allow 12 the inmate to make a phone call? 13 : Not that I'm aware 14 of. 15 : Okay. Have you ever heard of 16 anyone using the legal line for other, for 17 anything unauthorized? 18 : No. 19 : Okay. Did you interact or 20 see Epstein on August 9th? Interact with or 21 see Epstein on August 9th? 22 : No. 23 : Okay. 24 : So neither August 9th nor 25 August 10th? EFTA00114117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. : Did you ever have any 152 3 interactions with Epstein? 4 : Yes, I've had 5 interaction. When he committed the suicide - 6 when he attempted suicide. I interacted with 7 him then. 8 : What about after that 9 date? 10 : After that day, no. 11 : Did you even see him 12 after that day? 13 : No. 14 : No? What about the cells 15 in the SHU? Can you see through them or are 16 they like, do you open up a slide in order to 17 see in? 18 : No. You can see 19 through it. 20 : You can see through them? 21 : Mm-hmm. 22 : From the SHU desk, can 23 you see? 24 : No. No. No. No. 25 : So if Epstein's desk I EFTA00114118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 think that's what we're showing you before was 2 the SHU layout. I think it was 15 feet - the 3 closest cell to where the people are sitting in 4 the SHU. They cannot see -. 5 : I don't care where 6 you are inside a housing unit. You cannot see 7 from any - unless you're standing there in that 8 window, you can't see inside somebody's 9 : And is the window open 10 the whole time? 11 : I mean you may be 12 able to see if their light is on or something 13 like that. Whatever that window - whatever you 14 can see from that vantage point, you may be 15 able to see like the corner of something or 16 whatever. But no. 17 : Is the window open the 18 whole time? Or do you have to open it and 19 close it? 20 : The window is open 21 all the time. 22 : And about how big is that 23 window? 24 : I don't know how big 25 it is. EFTA00114119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 : Is it like 12 inches by 2 12 inches? 3 : I don't know how big 4 it is. 5 : Okay. But you've been in 6 the SHU though? 7 : Yes I've been in the 8 SHU. But I don't have to measure the window to 9 tell you how big it is. 10 : But I mean the difference 11 between like you know a three-foot by two-feet 12 or is it like -? 13 : I'm not going to - 14 I'm not even going to speculate on the 15 measurements. I mean. 16 : Is it -? 17 : I don't know how big. 18 I don't know the measurements of the window. 19 : So we've never been in 20 there. So we're just asking because we've 21 never put eyes on - in the SHU. So is it a 22 large thing that you can - where you have to 23 kind of like get up close to it or -? 24 : No. It's a little 25 narrow. It's a small window. It's not a big, EFTA00114120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 huge window where -. 2 : So would it be like as 3 big as this? 4 : No. It wouldn't be 5 that big. 6 : So smaller than basically 7 12X12? Roughly 16X12? 8 : Sir, go up there and 9 look at the window. Because I don't 10 : Okay. 11 : -- know the 12 measurements of the window. 13 : Okay. So for the record, 14 I'm holding up a piece of paper that's roughly 15 16 inches by 12 inches. And it is being said 16 that it is smaller than that. 17 SHU inmates. What are they 18 allowed to have in their cell? What kind of 19 items are they allowed to have inside their 20 cell? If you're placed in the SHU. 21 : It depends on what your 22 status is in the SHU. I mean you have inmates 23 that are in there on AD status. You have 24 inmates that -- 25 : What's AD? EFTA00114121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : -- are on DS. 2 Administrative Detention. You have inmates 3 that they're on disciplinary segregation. You 4 have inmates up there that are up there for 5 protective custody. You have inmates up there 6 for various reasons. So there is different 7 items that each, depending on their status, 8 they are allowed to have. 9 : So there's no set SHU policy 10 on what inmate is allowed to have and not have 11 in the cell? 12 : I don't know what 13 their polices - what their policy is. If they 14 have a set policy here, in general, I've never 15 seen a set policy for this institution in 16 particular about what the inmates can have or 17 what they couldn't have if they're in SHU. 18 : Okay so no -. 19 : But I'm sure there 20 has to be something. 21 : So what kind of holding was 22 Epstein under? What would he fall under? 23 : I don't know what. 24 To be honest with you, I don't know what, 25 because he wasn't up there for disciplinary 156 EFTA00114122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr - 1 action. He wasn't up there pending 2 disciplinary action. So I'm going to - and I 3 don't want to say he was up there for 4 protective custody. Because like I said 5 previously, and I'll continue to say that, for 6 someone in his position, he never should have 7 been up on SHU. 8 : Now someone in the SHU. Are 9 they allowed to have the same types of items as 10 a normal person in a regular cell? Or they 11 have only a limited amount of items? 12 : Um, Epstein, to be 13 honest with you, there's no telling what they 14 didn't allow Epstein to have in his cell. 15 : Why do you say it like that? 16 : I say it like that 17 because I know that he was always trying to get 18 things that he wasn't supposed to have. And to 19 be honest with you, I don't know if they 20 approved them or not. 21 : What was he trying to get? 22 : He was - when he was 23 in attorney conference he was trying to get his 24 meals delivered - his hot trays and stuff like 25 that. Regular inmate trays delivered to EFTA00114123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 attorney conference. Things of that nature. 2 So -. 3 : Did he get special 4 privileges? 5 : I don't know if he 6 did or not because I worked nights. So I 7 didn't' have a lot of interactions with Epstein 8 or any other inmates during the daytime because 9 I wasn't here. 10 : Was Epstein allowed to have 11 pill bottles in his cell? 12 : I don't know if he 13 was or not. 14 : Are inmates allowed to have 15 pill bottles in the cell? 16 : If medical says that 17 they can have them, yes. 18 : Okay. How many changes of 19 clothing or linens are inmates allowed to have 20 in the SHU? 21 : I don't know what 22 their policy is up there on SHU. My previous 23 institution, they in SHU, they don't have any 24 exchange of clothing up in SHU. When they get 25 their shower, their rec and shower, they're EFTA00114124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 given a new set of clothing at that time. But 2 they don't maintain any additional clothing in 3 the special housing unit outside of that. I 4 don't know what they do here. But that's how 5 it was always done at my previous institution. 6 : So inmates shouldn't have two 7 or three different pairs of -? 8 : Like I said, I don't 9 know what their policy is or was in SHU at that 10 time because things change here. Because 11 things around here change on a moment-to-moment 12 basis. 13 : How was Epstein interaction 14 with other inmates? Did he have any issues 15 with any inmates? 16 : I don't know what his 17 interaction was with other inmates. 18 : When was the last time you 19 interacted with Epstein? 20 : I just told you. 21 When he attempted suicide. 22 : Okay. Do you know why 23 Epstein was in prison? 24 : Uh, because of some 25 allegation that he was having - engaging in EFTA00114125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 sexual acts with underage females. 2 : So the next set of questions 3 is just general questions we have to ask. Did 4 you have any specific feelings regarding why he 5 was in prison? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. Did you speak about 8 Epstein with other inmates? 9 : No. 10 : What time did you leave shift 11 hat day? I know -. 12 : It was right after 13 5:00. 14 : After 5:00? 15 : Yes. 16 : And when did you hear about 17 the incident? 18 : I think it was - I 19 was working late that day because I had some 20 I was still finishing up my work. And I don't 21 know probably 7:00 sometime after 7:00 I guess. 22 : You left after 7:00? Or you 23 heard after 7:00? 24 : I think it was after 25 7:00. I wasn't really looking at the clock. EFTA00114126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 was here working. I had went downstairs to 2 finish some work that I had that I didn't get 3 to finish during my shift. And at some point 4 in time, that's when I heard that um that they 5 had had a medical emergency up in SHU. 6 : But were you here on the 7 premises? 8 : Yes. I was still 9 here. 10 : Did you respond up there at 11 all? 12 : I called up there to 13 make sure everybody was okay. And they - when 14 I asked who was up there they was telling me 15 that they didn't have but one or two staff 16 members up there. So yes. I went up there to 17 see if they needed some help because I knew 18 feeding and all that stuff still needed to be 19 done. 20 : So when you went up to the 21 SHU after the incident, was Epstein still in 22 the SHU or was he removed already? 23 : No. He wasn't there. 24 : He wasn't there. Did you get 25 to see the inside of the cell? EFTA00114127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. No. Nope. : Did you have any 162 3 communications with or Tova Noel 4 after this incident? 5 : Noel was still there. 6 I asked her if she was okay. And she said, you 7 know, not really. And I went to help them feed 8 and shortly after that, when I came back up out 9 the range after feeding the tier, she was gone. 10 They had pulled her off her post. 11 : Okay. After that day, did 12 you have any communications with them? 13 : No. 14 : Okay. 15 : When inmates come off of 16 suicide watch and are in or assigned to the 17 SHU, so suicide watch to the SHU. Are they 18 assigned a cellmate? 19 : One more time. 20 : So when inmates come off 21 of suicide watch or psych observation and 22 they're on psych observation due to suicide 23 watch, are they assigned If they are then 24 assigned to the SHU, are they assigned a 25 cellmate? EFTA00114128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 : No. : No? When you said that 3 you were working nights, were you working 4 nights all in August 2019? 5 : I don't. If that was 6 my quarterly post, more than likely I was. But 7 offhand I can't remember. 8 : Do you remember if you 9 would have been working days as well? I'm just 10 trying to rectify -. 11 : I mean I would have 12 to look at my schedule. 13 : Sure. 14 : I don't know if I was 15 working both or if I was strictly assigned to 16 that one. I'm not sure. 17 : Okay. 18 : I just had a follow-up on 19 that. 20 : So you said. Sorry, go 21 ahead. 22 : Did you work overtime during 23 that time? 24 : What do you mean? 25 : You mentioned everyone's EFTA00114129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 working overtime during that time. Right? 2 Everyone's mandated and everything. 3 : I'm sure at some 4 point in time. I don't' know if it was around 5 that time, but yeah. If a lieutenant then 6 called in sick, yeah. We was required to stay 7 and work that shift. 8 : Would that be -? So that 9 would be the day watch? 10 : It could have been 11 either or. Well depending on what shift you're 12 working. 13 : So you said you were 14 involved with responding to the July 23rd 15 incident where Epstein originally tried to 16 commit suicide? 17 : Yes. 18 : Now is it your 19 understanding that he tried to commit suicide? 20 : As far as I know. 21 : Did you hear anything 22 about his cellmate attempting to kill him? 23 : There was some 24 reference that I guess he had mentioned at that 25 time that his cellmate had done that to him. EFTA00114130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 But when I went back and spoke to him he never 2 mentioned that to me. He never said anything. 3 : When you say, you 4 actually questioned Epstein? 5 : Yes. 6 : And what did he say to 7 you? 8 : He didn't say 9 anything. He really didn't say anything about 10 the incident. He said that he had gotten up to 11 get some water and the next thing he knew -. 12 think that was what he said. He had gotten up. 13 I would have to look at my memo. I think he 14 said he had gotten up to get some water or 15 something like that. And the next thing he 16 knew we were there. 17 : Okay. And what number 18 were you in responding? 19 : I don't know what - 20 if I was first if we went because usually when 21 we respond to an emergency, we -. Even if 22 get on the elevator first, the elevator may 23 stop and pick up somebody else along the way. 24 But I think it was me and I don't know. I 25 don't' remember. EFTA00114131 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 : When you did respond, 2 what did you see? 3 : Um. 4 : When you got to the cell? 5 : He was lying on the 6 floor. He appeared to be unresponsive. But 7 when we walked up to him, we would see his 8 chest rising. And he was kind of clammy. 9 : Did he have anything 10 around his neck? 11 : No. He didn't have 12 anything around his neck. 13 : Okay. 14 : And there were 15 different times when he would open one eye and 16 kind of you know like he was trying to see what 17 we were doing. And then he would close his 18 eyes. But he would never respond to us. He 19 just wanted to maintain that mode like he was 20 unconscious or something like that. I guess. 21 I don't' know what was going through his mind. 22 : Do you know if someone 23 removed something that was around his neck? 24 : I don't know if 25 someone. I don't' know. EFTA00114132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 : Okay. Point being, like 2 if he's claiming someone tried to kill him, but 3 also at the same time is saying that he's 4 trying to commit suicide. He didn't' have 5 anything around his neck. Is there any reason 6 for you to believe that his cellmate was 7 actually trying to kill him? 8 : No. I mean I had no 9 proof that his cellmate tried to do anything to 10 him. And I'm trying to remember what the 11 officer said. I don't' even remember offhand 12 what the officers were telling me. I don't 13 know if they saw him with something around his 14 neck or what they observed. But I can't 15 remember. I would have to refer back to my 16 notes. Because that was a long time ago. 17 : Sure. So if counts are 18 not conducted. And I'm assuming -. Are counts 19 more important than rounds? Or are they both 20 just as equally as important? 21 : I mean they're born 22 important. They are both independently 23 important. 24 : Okay. So let's go first 25 with counts. If counts are not conducted, who EFTA00114133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 is -. So if counts are signed off on. You're 2 given a count slip. If those counts actually 3 weren't conducted. So if let's say for 4 instance that during your shift, the 12:00 5 a.m., the 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. If they 6 were not conducted - those counts- who is 7 responsible for that? For them being signed 8 and certified? Who - so I'm assuming the 9 people? Noel and Thomas are the ones assigned 10 to that shift. And they are the ones who 11 certify that those counts were conducted and 12 then provided to you. Are they the only ones 13 that are responsible for providing false 14 information? 15 : Providing false 16 information? 17 : Correct. So if they're 18 saying they conducted counts but they didn't. 19 So they were providing you with something 20 saying either 72 or 73, but those counts were 21 not conducted. 22 : How would I know if 23 they weren't conducted? 24 : Right. That's what I'm 25 asking. So are they the only ones that are EFTA00114134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 responsible for falsifying that? 2 : Who else would know 3 whether or not they did them or not? I mean -- 4 : That's what I'm asking. 5 no one else would 6 have any way of knowing. 7 : So it doesn't' go above 8 them. If they are the ones that are saying it, 9 there's no other people that can like verify 10 that it actually was conducted. 11 : How would they verify 12 it? 13 : That's my question to 14 you. 15 : And that's what I'm 16 saying to you. If they're the ones that are -. 17 There is no reason whatsoever for us to ever 18 believe that someone is not conducting their 19 counts or doing what they're supposed to be 20 doing. You know. We're not out there with 21 them. I mean we have no way of knowing what 22 As far as I know, no one has any way of knowing 23 what I'm doing when I'm here. 24 : Sure. 25 : You know so you have EFTA00114135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 to have confidence in and you have to know your 2 staff. That's what it comes down to. You have 3 to walking and talking. It's not just about 4 the inmates. It's not just about you know what 5 we did with Epstein. It's about every inmate 6 that was being housed at MCC at the time. 7 Every inmate had the potential to hang 8 themselves or kill themselves or do whatever. 9 It wasn't just about Epstein. We're 10 responsible for every inmate in this 11 institution. 12 : Sure. 13 : And I have - if i 14 have absolutely no reason to believe that a 15 staff member in this building, or doubt, unless 16 they reveal something to me that would make me 17 doubt what they said is true. 18 : So -. 19 : Other than that, i 20 have no reason to believe that a staff member 21 isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing. 22 : So if you were told that 23 the 12:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. counts 24 were not conducted on August 10th, does that 25 surprise you? EFTA00114136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes, that would 2 surprise me. 3 : It does surprise you? 4 : Yes. 5 : Okay. Do you have any 6 reasons to believe that either Thomas or Noel 7 did not conduct counts in the past? 8 : No. 9 : No? 10 : I have no reason to 11 believe. I don't even believe that they didn't 12 do it that night to be honest with you. But 13 no, I have no reason to believe that they 14 didn't -=. 15 : Have you heard that they 16 made any statements to any other staff members 17 about not conducting rounds or counts? 18 : No. No. 19 : So you never heard those 20 either? 21 : No. 22 : Okay. And you don't know 23 of them ever not conducting counts or rounds 24 other than -? 25 : I don't know of them EFTA00114137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or any other staff members not conducting 2 counts or rounds or anything like that. 3 : Okay. And you didn't -? 4 On August 10th, did you speak to them at all 5 about hey did you guys really do these counts? 6 : No. 7 : Okay. 8 : No. 9 : What about with the 10 rounds? So would you be surprised to find out 11 that they didn't' do rounds on August 10th 12 during your shift? 13 : Yes. I would be 14 surprised to find out -- 15 : Okay. 16 : -- that they didn't' 17 do rounds. Yes. 18 : So if it were found out 19 that they didn't do any rounds. That to you is 20 shocking? You would be like wait what? 21 : Yes. I would be 22 surprised that they didn't do 23 : Okay. Do you have any 24 follow-ups on those specific questions? 25 Specifically with regards to falsification of EFTA00114138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 rounds and counts? Who has to sign off on the 2 counts and rounds? 3 : What do you mean? 4 : So is it solely the COs 5 that are in the SHU? Or does someone else have 6 to verify on the counts that they were 7 conducted? 8 : I mean you can't 9 verify that they're conducted. You can verify 10 that the -. 11 : That they provided you 12 that information. 13 : Right. That they 14 turned in the count slip. 15 : Right. 16 : But you can't verify 17 anything else. 18 : So there's no procedure 19 in place for a lieutenant to make sure that COs 20 are actually performing the duties that they 21 say they're doing? 22 : Do you know how many 23 people who have -? Supervisors would have to 24 be in -? That would mean that a supervisor 25 would have to be on every unit during every EFTA00114139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 count. 2 : Well I'm talking 3 specifically about the SHU. 4 : And watching the 5 count. 6 : I'm speaking specifically 7 to the SHU. So in the special housing unit, 8 there's no verification process. If the COs 9 are saying they did it, you just take their 10 word. There's no way to verify it? 11 : SHU is no different, 12 sir. Before this incident with Epstein, SHU 13 was no different than any other unit in this 14 building. It's not about whether or not solely 15 whether or not SHU is doing it. It's about 16 whether -- 17 : So you're saying -- 18 : -- everybody on every 19 unit -- 20 : -- prior to this incident 21 22 : -- is doing it. 23 : -- is there something 24 that has been implemented since then? To 25 ensure that counts and rounds are being EFTA00114140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 conducted? 2 : No. 3 : So it's still the same. 4 It's all up to the COs. If they're certifying 5 that they did it, the lieutenants are taking 6 their word for it. 7 : That's correct. 8 : Okay. 9 : That's correct. As 10 far as I know. Yes. 11 : On August 10th during 12 your shift from August 9th 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 13 a.m. the following day. What was the chain of 14 command? Was it Noel or Thomas, or was there a 15 hierarchy? Was one in charge of the other? 16 Was one subordinate or were they both equal? 17 : What do you mean? 18 You mean inside the SHU? 19 : Correct. So does one 20 give the other orders or do they work tougher? 21 Is there a hierarchy in there? 22 : Well they should be 23 working together. 24 : Okay. But there's no 25 like person that's in charge of the other? EFTA00114141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 : No. 2 : So if -? 3 : No. 4 : And how was it determined 5 with counts and rounds? Is there someone that 6 takes lead on it? Or is it? 7 : No. 8 : No? 9 : I mean we all have 10 the same responsibilities. 11 : Okay. Back over to you. 12 : Just for in terms of policy- 13 wise. If a count is wrong. Right, there's an 14 issue with the count. What does the policy 15 state? What should happen? 16 : What type of issue? 17 : Let's say the COs in the SHU 18 did a count. And the count comes to the 19 control center and it's wrong. They identify 20 the fact that it's wrong. What's the next 21 step? 22 : What do you mean? It's wrong 23 how? 24 : The count is off. The number 25 is wrong. Let's say it said 72 -. EFTA00114142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 : You mean the count 2 slip? The count slip comes to control -? 3 : Yes. 4 : And the count slip is 5 wrong? 6 : Yes. 7 : Then if control is 8 aware of that, and especially if control is 9 taking the count. Then control will call them 10 back and tell them I need a new count slip 11 because this one is not right. And usually the 12 only time that that would happen is would be 13 like in the incidents where we may have moved a 14 staff member during that time. And we need to 15 go back and update that count slip that we were 16 originally getting. Or like in this case with 17 the inmate being in R&D. We needed to go back 18 and get another count slip that reflected the 19 new count which was 72. Once we put the inmate 20 in R&D. 21 : Okay. On that same topic, if 22 the count was wrong, and you told them that 23 they needed to go back and do another count. 24 : Not that the count 25 was wrong. That the count slip was wrong. The EFTA00114143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 number that was reflected on the count slip was 2 wrong. 3 : Did you see them do the 4 count? 5 : No. 6 : So the number they reported 7 was wrong. The count should have been -. 8 : They said that they 9 had -. They said that they had their count was 10 73 but that they had there was an inmate that 11 was in R&D. So that was the problem. They 12 never did a count slip saying - they never said 13 my count is 73 and left it at that. They were 14 clear to say that the count is - SHU has 73 but 15 there is an inmate that is down on the third 16 floor in R&D. Or something to that effect. 17 They notified me that there was an inmate that 18 was off their housing unit. 19 : So you're saying the count 20 wasn't wrong. 21 : What was on the count 22 slip was wrong. 23 : The count slip was wrong 24 but she said that they explained it when they 25 delivered it. EFTA00114144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 : But you just stated a little 2 bit before that the count wasn't wrong, the 3 count slip was wrong. 4 : The count slip was 5 wrong. 6 : Why did you ask them to go 7 back and do the count? 8 : Because I needed to 9 find out what was going on with this dude in 10 R&D so that, you know, if they in fact -. If 11 we made changes to whatever the status was to 12 this guy in R&D. If he was in fact going to be 13 there overnight or whatever the case may be, 14 then we needed to get him off of their count. 15 So while I was verifying that, I said, you know 16 what, just go back and do it again just to make 17 sure. While I'm looking into this thing with 18 this dude. I didn't say that to them. I'm 19 thinking to myself. I'll have them go back and 20 do another count while I check on this inmate 21 that was -. 22 : There's a possibility the 23 count was wrong then. 24 : What do you mean? 25 : You said go back and verify EFTA00114145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 if the guy was still there or not there. 2 : I didn't say go back 3 and verify if the guy was still there. I said 4 while I verify what's going on with this guy in 5 R&D to see if he's still in R&D. That's what 6 I'm talking about. I wanted to verify if he 7 was still in R&D. And if he was, if he was 8 going to be staying there. Because I wasn't 9 aware that there was an inmate in R&D. So from 10 my own, and I wasn't verbalizing this. I was 11 saying this to myself. 12 : But the point being is 13 you got a count that was a 73 and you said do 14 it again. Correct? 15 : The count slip that 16 was 73 was broke down because they had put the 17 count slip out. 18 : Right. And you -- 19 : So - 20 : -- asked them to do the 21 count again though. Because you got a count 22 slip - and this is where I just want to make 23 sure that we're all on the same page here. So 24 you did though, take action. You got a count 25 slip that seemed to be inaccurate and EFTA00114146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 questioned it. You said can you do the count 2 again. 3 : I hadn't even gotten 4 the count slip then. 5 : Oh, okay. 6 : Like I said, when 7 they called in the count, they said the count 8 like the count in the book or wherever they was 9 reading it from say 73 but there is an inmate 10 that's in R&D. 11 : So that's how they called 12 the count in? There's 73, but there's one 13 inmate in R&D. And you said, can you do the 14 count again? 15 : They wasn't even 16 really calling in the count. They was 17 questioning. You know, they were basically 18 informing me that we've got 73 -. Because they 19 weren't even sure what they should do or how 20 they should go about it. 21 : Okay. 22 : You know. They just 23 wanted it to be known that there was an inmate 24 off their housing unit that was somewhere else. 25 He wasn't physically on the housing unit. And EFTA00114147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 that was the whole question as to how do they 2 want us to do - how are we supposed to count 3 this guy? What's the deal with that? So I'm 4 saying, you know, let me - I need to figure 5 this out. Because I wasn't - I didn't even 6 know that there was a guy in R&D at the time. 7 So I need to verify that there is a guy in R&D 8 and what's the status of this dude in R&D, why 9 he's there. All these questions I have to ask 10 before I can even tell them anything about it. 11 : So at what point would 12 have they filled out the count slip? After you 13 did the verification? Would have they then 14 created the count slip? 15 : They would have 16 created a new count slip. 17 : Okay. So -. 18 : And that count slip 19 apparently was never picked up because -- 20 : Never picked up or not 21 recorded. 22 : -- because the one 23 that you all was able to get a copy of was the 24 73 and not the one that reflected the in count 25 which would have been 72. EFTA00114148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 : And do you know that 2 there was a count slip that was created? 3 : I have no reason to 4 believe that there wasn't. 5 : But do you have a reason 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to believe that there was? Did you ever see one? If I had saw it, it would have been during the time that I would have taken the count and I would have attached it to the rest of the count slips and went on about my business. So at the same time we're saying to you there's no reason to believe that there wasn't. there's also then no reason to believe that there was. : I - let me tell you - The point being is that you don't know. You don't know if there was a count slip. If -. Let me tell you something. Based upon the fact that I've worked with these guys for a certain period of time and I know what they're capable of doing. EFTA00114149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 I can for the most part tell you what somebody 2 would do and what they wouldn't do. I have 3 never had a problem with a staff member not 4 correcting their count slip or not sending me 5 another - a corrected count slip. 6 : Now we're only asking you 7 because I have personally not seen it. So I'm 8 asking you if there's another one, do we need 9 to go try to find this. Or do you not know. 10 : You're not going to 11 find it. I mean it's two years later. 12 : Right. 13 : Where are you going 14 to find it at? If it wasn't picked up - I mean 15 the fact that they could have put it out there 16 and no one picked it up. 17 : Here's a question. If they 18 did do one, right, it's expected that they 19 should have for that one. Right. A new one. 20 Yes or no? Because of the error, it was 21 expected that they would have filled out a new 22 one with the correct number. 23 : I'm sure that they 24 filled that they filled out another one and 25 probably put it out in and it was an oversight EFTA00114150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 on somebody's part and they didn't pick it up. 2 : Yeah but here's the thing. 3 You don't know if - yes or no. Did you see it 4 for that? Yes or no. 5 : No. I didn't' see 6 it. 7 : No-no. We're going that, 8 would it possibly have been picked up at the 9 3:00 a.m. count? 10 : I don't know when it 11 could have been picked up, sir. 12 : Is it in the same place? Or 13 is it a different place it's kept? 14 : Depending. I mean 15 they could have put it in the same place. They 16 could have put it in a different place. I 17 don't know. 18 : Okay. That's it. We just 19 want to know. 20 : I can't tell you something 21 that I didn't see. If I didn't see it, I can't 22 23 : And that's what -- 24 : -- tell you where 25 they put it or who picked it up or what EFTA00114151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 happened to it. 2 : And that's what we're 3 getting at. The point being is that you're not 4 sure. So we just don't want to - because you 5 said you have no reason to believe that they 6 didn't. That indicates that they did. And we 7 just want to make sure that you're correct. 8 You've never seen it. You're actually not sure 9 if they did or not. 10 : Okay. 11 : Is that correct though? 12 : No. I never saw the 13 count slip. 14 : Okay. Perfect. I mean 15 it's not like a "gotcha," we just want to make 16 sure -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- that you dint - there 19 isn't a count slip out there that we need to 20 try to go find. 21 : Let me tell you 22 something. It's —. If-if-if. I can't - if _ 23 can make something right that's wrong or need 24 correcting, then that's what I'm here for. I'm 25 not here to like I said, and I'll say this a EFTA00114152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 thousand times. I'm not here to cover for 2 nobody. I'm not here to provide false answers 3 for something that somebody had done, but at 4 the same time, you all are throwing these 5 questions at me about what somebody would have 6 done. I don't know what's in somebody's mind - 7 8 : Ma'am, we're absolutely 9 not asking -- 10 : -- with the stuff -- 11 : -- those questions. 12 We're asking you -- 13 : -- that's taken 14 place. 15 : We're saying did you see 16 it. So that's what we're trying to get you to 17 answer more like yes, no, hey I don't know on 18 that front. So we're trying to keep it 19 consolidated and ask you direct questions. 20 What did you know? Did you know if they did 21 another count slip? 22 : Well what I also know 23 is there's no reason for them to not have done 24 it. I've never had a reason or a circumstance 25 where somebody didn't do a corrected count EFTA00114153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 slip. I mean it's - there's really nothing to 2 it. 3 : And this is only because 4 of the way you're answering this. Should have 5 you ensured that they did a new count slip? 6 : I had no reason to. 7 : But was it your 8 responsibility to ensure that they created a 9 new count slip? 10 : It was my 11 responsibility to tell them. Well they knew to 12 create it. If the count was different, they 13 knew to create a new count slip. I'm not 14 required to wait around for that count slip to 15 manifest itself in SHU when I have a thousand 16 other duties to do. 17 : Okay. 18 : I leave that you 19 know. 20 : So it's your requirement 21 to do a new count but it's not your requirement 22 to follow up to obtain a new count slip. 23 : Because what 24 generally happens is that the internal officers 25 would go pick that count slip up and bring it EFTA00114154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 down to the control center. And they would 2 attach it to that count. 3 : And would have it then 4 been Noel or Thomas' responsibility to contact 5 internal to tell them to come get it? Or would 6 it have been your responsibility to tell 7 internal to? 8 : Sometimes I would 9 tell them. Sometimes SHU would tell them. It 10 just depends -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- on the 13 circumstance. 14 : In this circumstance do 15 you know who would have been responsible for 16 that? 17 : I mean we all could 18 have done it. 19 : Okay. 20 : We all could have 21 done it. 22 : So when you say depending 23 on circumstance, in this -. 24 : Well that was just 25 something I said. But any of us could have EFTA00114155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 done it. If control - if I see that control -. 2 : So let's get at it this 3 way. Did you contact internal? 4 : Let me tell you 5 something. If internal comes to the control 6 center, and I walk over there to drop off count 7 slips that they've already collected. And I 8 walk over there and I see them there. And I'll 9 say hey, can you go grab the new one from 9 10 South. That would be an example of a 11 circumstance. 12 : Okay. So in this 13 circumstance, did you contact internal and tell 14 them to get the new slip? 15 : I didn't contact -- 16 : Okay. 17 : -- internal to tell 18 them. 19 : And are you aware if 20 Thomas and Noel contacted internal to come 21 collect a new slip? 22 : They may have. And I 23 may have -. 24 : But you're not aware? 25 : And control may have EFTA00114156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 announced it over the intercom. I can't 2 remember from -- 3 : Sure. 4 : -- this year to that 5 one. 6 : You're not aware. Great. 7 : You know if that 8 actually occurred. 9 : Now you mentioned that an 10 all-staff email should have been put out that 11 Epstein had a requirement. Who should have put 12 that out? 13 : The person - the 14 : Was that psychology? The 15 warden? The captain? The AW? 16 : I mean they all 17 should have been doing it. 18 : Okay. 19 : To be honest with 20 you, they all should have known that he should 21 have been up on 10 South. 22 : Okay. 23 : But. 24 : Has an all-staff email 25 ever gone out before saying that this person is EFTA00114157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 on suicide watch. He's required to have an 2 email. I mean a cellmate. 3 : Here? 4 : Yes. 5 : I've never seen that. 6 I've never seen that done here. But we didn't 7 have -. I'm trying to remember a time when 8 prior to Epstein that I had even seen an email 9 period about an inmate needing an inmate in the 10 cell to be housed with another inmate. To be 11 honest with you. 12 : Okay. Now speaking to 13 that though, you know, we showed you the email 14 that was sent to you that you said you don't 15 recall ever receiving it. Do you have a lot of 16 emails that have gone unread? 17 : I'm sure I do. 18 : Okay. So yeah. You 19 didn't receive this but there's also a lot of 20 emails that you didn't receive -- 21 : There's a lot of 22 emails that I received -- 23 : -- and you probably 24 haven't -- 25 : -- and haven't had EFTA00114158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 time to read at that time because of everything 2 that was going on during our shift and in this 3 building. 4 : And is that just a 5 constant issue of just trying to keep up with 6 emails as well as do your job? 7 : That was a constant 8 issue. Yes. Because there was so much going 9 on in this building at the time. So much 10 chaos. That you didn't have time to read. 11 : Okay. 12 : You didn't have time 13 to read a lot of the emails that you'd gotten. 14 But most importantly, if when you're talking 15 about information that's that important, you 16 know. Whoever is sending out the information. 17 Whoever got the information should always be 18 trying to make sure that everybody knows that 19 this is important. We have to make sure that 20 he has a cellie because like I said, the 21 officers are the main ones who come in contact. 22 : And that goes back to our 23 original question. 24 : With the inmates. 25 : If the chain of command EFTA00114159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 went up to during that time and that he 2 knew that he was required to have a cellmate 3 and didn't, what should have he done? 4 : If what? 5 : If you were the ops 6 lieutenant at the time, so put yourself into 7 the place of . If you knew that Epstein 8 was required to have a cellmate, and his 9 current cellmate was removed, he should have - 10 and what you said was, I believe, he should 11 have notified the captain and ensured that a 12 cellmate was put in place. 13 : That's what I would 14 have done. 15 : Correct. 16 : I said was the 17 SHU lieutenant at one point. So he probably 18 would have assigned another inmate to the cell. 19 It just depends on you as a supervisor. 20 : Sure. 21 : There is nothing 22 written in stone concerning how you're going to 23 - indicating how you're going to handle that 24 situation because -. 25 : And if the inmate that EFTA00114160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 was removed - Reyes - was done at the end of 2 his shift, should have he then passed that 3 information on to the next operations 4 lieutenant to be able to handle the situation? 5 : That's if he knew 6 about it. But chances are, he probably would 7 have handled it -- 8 : No, let's -- 9 : -- himself before he 10 left. 11 : Okay. 12 : I can't -. 13 : So you think that 14 : Look. I can't answer 15 for him. 16 : Sure. 17 : I don't know what he 18 should have done or what he would have done or 19 what -- 20 : If it was -. 21 : -- he could have 22 done. 23 : -- as an ops lieutenant. 24 Do you think even if it happened at the end of 25 a shift, he should have handled it? EFTA00114161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 : I'm not saying what 2 he should have done. 3 : Okay. 4 : I'm saying Look. 5 What he should have done and what he could have 6 done and what he would have done is on him. 7 : Sure. 8 : We don't have - there 9 is no instruction or no instructional manual 10 that tells us every little thing that we're 11 supposed to be doing -- 12 : Right. 13 : -- for every scenario 14 because it'll never happen. 15 : Okay. 16 : You'll never have an 17 exact scenario for everything that happens. 18 You just have to use your common sense and good 19 judgment regarding it. 20 : So going back to what you 21 said about your hours aren't specific to what 22 the duty agent roster says. You said you would 23 work -. Although the roster says 12:00 a.m. to 24 8:00 a.m., you were actually 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 25 a.m. What would have have been on August EFTA00114162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 9th. Looking at the duty roster. What times 2 would he have actually - have worked according 3 to that? 4 : I'm thinking he would 5 have worked he would have came in around 6 6:00 and worked until 2:00. 7 : Okay. So he would have 8 been 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.? 9 : Yes. 10 : And then would 11 have been 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.? 12 : That's correct. 13 : Okay. If he didn't -. 14 If didn't tell that, would have 15 it then been the ultimate responsibility for 16 the COs to again report it up the chain of 17 command? Or because they reported it 18 previously, would that have covered them with 19 hey we got it up to the ops lieutenant. That 20 person's supposed to take care of it. Do you 21 follow what I'm saying? So for people working 22 in the SHU. They had already reported it up. 23 It got to . At that point, is everybody 24 in the SHU covered? They reported it. Or 25 should each subsequent shift have also EFTA00114163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 reported, hey he's supposed to have an inmate - 2 he's supposed to have a cellmate in here. He 3 doesn't. 4 : That's if they knew. 5 There is no reason for me to believe that those 6 guys that was there on SHU that if they knew 7 that, whether or not before they left, I'm sure 8 they would have questioned that again as to 9 what you want me to do about this particular 10 situation. 11 : Okay. So should have 12 each So then let's say if Thomas and Noel 13 did know. And they knew he was without a 14 cellmate. Should have they then told you? 15 When you did your rounds? Like when they're 16 calling control. And you're stopping by at 17 4:00 a.m. Would have it been their 18 responsibility to say hey, just so you know, 19 he's required to have a cellmate and he 20 doesn't. 21 : I'm not going to say 22 that that's what they should have done because 23 there's no rules and regulations regarding 24 that. But they - I would have - if it was me, 25 I would have mentioned it. EFTA00114164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 : Okay. So even if they 2 know, somebody told them just make sure, he's 3 required to have a cellmate in SHU at that 4 point, they're not actually required to notify 5 someone. 6 : If what? If somebody 7 tells -? 8 : So you're saying that 9 there's no rules and - 10 : If who tells them 11 that? 12 : So if they are told. And 13 I'm not saying you did. 14 : You're saying -. Okay 15 so now you're saying if they knew that he was 16 supposed to have a cellie. 17 : Correct. 18 : Yeah. If they knew 19 the was supposed to have a cellie. 20 : If they knew -. Yeah. 21 So if they then because it was during their 22 shift. They should have at some point informed 23 you hey he's supposed to have a cellmate and he 24 doesn't. And they didn't do that. Correct? 25 : That's correct. EFTA00114165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 : Okay. Fair enough. 2 That's it. You done? 3 : (Indiscernible *02:48:29) 4 : What? 5 : Do you know of any - 6 currently, do you know of any policy violations 7 that's happening at the MCC? 8 : As far as what? 9 : For August 9th and 10th 10 or are you talking about -- 11 : No-no-no. Just in general. 12 : -- just in general? 13 : In general. In general, do 14 you know of any policy violations or any kind 15 of violations happening here at the MCC? 16 : What I do know is 17 that there are people here who abuse their 18 power. They blame everybody for everything and 19 they expect everybody to members of 20 correctional services and to take on the 21 responsibilities of other departments when it's 22 clearly not their responsibility. You have a 23 lot of people that come here that really are 24 not versed on what it is they're supposed to be 25 doing - their responsibilities. So they pawn EFTA00114166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 that off on other people. But there's a -. 2 There's no clear and defined form of policy and 3 procedure here. There's no consistency that 4 goes on here. Everything is hodge-podge. A 5 lot of times, people are required to make 6 decisions off the cuff or to do -. Because 7 when you come here, if you don't have or while 8 you're here - or working here. There is no 9 formal guidance that teaches and guides staff 10 to know what they're supposed to be doing. 11 There's nothing written in stone regarding what 12 you're supposed to be doing and what you're 13 supposed to be doing on a daily basis. There 14 are post orders and stuff like that. But 15 they're not in depth enough to let staff know 16 this is what you're supposed to be doing. 17 There are a lot of things that - decisions that 18 people make off the cuff that's not ever put in 19 writing. And that they would tell whoever's 20 here at the time. And I guess expect that 21 information to get disseminated throughout the 22 institution. And it's not. That's not being 23 done. That's not being done. So you have a 24 lot of - we have a lot of new staff here. And 25 a lot of them are falling between the cracks EFTA00114167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 because they just aren't getting information to 2 them in a manner in which they should. 3 : On what you just mentioned. 4 So you're saying that there's orders or 5 decisions coming down from up above? And it's 6 not being properly communicated out. 7 : This is how. This is 8 how this place has always been. You -. People 9 in-in-in-in um positions will require the 10 people up under them to carry their load rather 11 than them carrying their own load. When if - 12 if I'm a lieutenant, my duties and 13 responsibilities and authority end at a certain 14 level. At that point, the captain and above 15 takes over. A lot of times, you don't see 16 that. They expect you to do your job and their 17 job as well. We can't -. There are certain 18 decisions that we can't make. If it was up to 19 me, Epstein would have been up on 10 South. So 20 those are the type of decisions where you tell 21 people that these things are wrong. You give 22 them intel about certain things. And here we 23 are. We done found a loaded gun in the 24 institution. That - those type things should 25 never happen. Never happen. EFTA00114168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : That's all I have. 2 : Anything else? 3 : Nope. 4 : You have Thomas and 5 Noel that were left holding the bag for 6 something that, for a decision that should have 7 been made by the staff way above their level in 8 regard to Epstein and what was best for him 9 during his time here. It may not have saved 10 his life, but we certainly would have been in a 11 better position if he had decided to take it 12 somewhere. 13 : But do you agree that 14 counts and rounds need to be conducted? If 15 people are falsifying counts and rounds -? 16 : I'm not. I don't 17 know anything about -- 18 : If -. 19 : -- people falsifying 20 counts -- 21 : But if -- 22 : -- but yes -- 23 : -- they were. 24 : -- counts and rounds 25 need to be done. They're important. EFTA00114169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 : Right. And if they were 2 aware that there was a cellmate requirement, 3 they should have reported the matter to someone 4 like yourself. 5 : Yeah, but you have 6 other people that are - were responsible for 7 disseminating that information to - 8 : Okay. 9 : -- everybody to make 10 sure that everybody had that information. And 11 everybody knew that. 12 : Right. And that -- 13 : And they also had -. 14 I guess like yourself, 15 you received an email but you didn't read it. 16 So that's where there's one of those things 17 that yeah, there's definitely things to work 18 out. But I'm just saying when you say, like 19 there are things that sound like they were 20 probably done wrong here like counts and rounds 21 aren't being conducted. People aren't 22 reporting information up the chain if they're 23 being told to do so. But as well as everything 24 else, you're saying as an institution. 25 : When I first came EFTA00114170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 into the Bureau, you didn't even have email. 2 So how was - and you still now is no different 3 than back then. You still have inmates who was 4 with in potential danger. The same situations 5 that existed in the institutions then. It's 6 the same instances that exist now. So if back 7 then they were able to make sure everybody was 8 on the same page and that information was 9 disseminated and it got to everybody. Why 10 should it be any different here? You can't 11 rely on an inmate because first of all, in 12 order to know, you don't just send out. That's 13 the whole purpose of walking and talking. To 14 disseminate information that way. Because 15 you're never guaranteed that when you send out 16 an email that somebody is going to read it. I 17 have a ton of emails on my computer at home 18 that I don't read. So nothing is guaranteed. 19 You have to know. When you're in charge and 20 you're running something, you-you-you-you need 21 to know that whatever you put out there, that 22 if it's that important, if it's that important, 23 why are you sending it through an email anyway. 24 Why aren't you calling somebody on the phone? 25 Back it up. Call people on the phone. Make EFTA00114171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 sure everybody knows. 2 : I think the purpose is to 3 put it in writing. But yeah, so email but also 4 verify verbally. 5 : You need to verify 6 that if you're sending those emails to 7 pertinent people who should have access to that 8 information that everybody knows about it. 9 : Do you all have all staff 10 like where lieutenants are all present where 11 they can verbalize something to you? Is that 12 done here? 13 : Do we have what? 14 : So you're saying that not 15 only an email but people should verbalize it. 16 But there's a ton of people that need to know 17 things. So is there a process in place where 18 someone like the captain, say? If the warden 19 tells the captain make sure he has a cellmate, 20 is there a process in place where the captain 21 can get in front of all the lieutenants and 22 tell them this? Or is that - is there -? 23 : The captain has 24 access to every lieutenant here. The captain's 25 office is -. EFTA00114172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 : But how would he go about 2 verbalizing? Would he have to tell each 3 individual lieutenant? 4 : He should. 5 : So each -- 6 : If it's that 7 important. 8 : -- lieutenant he needs to 9 specifically tell? And were you - being the 10 ops lieutenant - were you one of the people he 11 should have specifically told? 12 : He should have told 13 all of us. Not just time. He should have told 14 all of us. 15 : SO if you were -. 16 : Um, psychology should 17 have made sure that we all knew that. 18 : And this goes to like 19 since you didn't know. You have an email but 20 no one verbalized it. Who should have told 21 you? Whose ultimate responsibility do you 22 believe it was that hey that's the position 23 that really should have informed me. I'm the 24 ops lieutenant. I should have known that he 25 needed an inmate. Who was the person that EFTA00114173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 should have told you that verbally? 2 : Everybody who had 3 stake in making sure. 4 : But you relay believe 5 that every single one of those persons should 6 have verbally told you this? 7 : They should have made 8 sure that enough people knew whereby everybody 9 should have known. 10 : So this is what we talked 11 about. Everybody did know but you. So who 12 should have told you? 13 : No. 14 : The lieutenants. The 15 lieutenants -- 16 : Everybody didn't 17 know. 18 : -- that were involved 19 here all knew that he was required to have an 20 inmate. You're the only one who said that you 21 didn't know. So my question to you is they all 22 knew. Who should have been the one to tell 23 you? 24 : The same people that 25 told them. Just because they read the email EFTA00114174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 doesn't mean that before they read the email, 2 they wasn't aware. 3 : Okay. 4 : I mean that doesn't 5 say that. 6 : No. I do believe that 7 most of these people were told verbally. So 8 that's what I'm saying. Who should have 9 verbally told you? 10 : Who verbally told 11 them? 12 : So whoever verbally 13 told them should have verbally told you? 14 : I mean -. 15 : Okay. 16 : A number of 17 You've got Psychology has a stake 18 : Sure. 19 : -- in whether or not 20 he has a cellie. Right? 21 : Do you understand what 22 I'm saying? I'm saying like psychology, the 23 captain, the warden, the AW. They can't all 24 tell you the same thing. It should be one 25 person. I'm assuming that should have told EFTA00114175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 you. 2 : There's never one 3 person that disseminates information. That's 4 how we all know what happens here. When you 5 don't have one person -. 6 : Okay. 7 : One person that would 8 mean that that one person would have to work 9 every shift to let everybody know what's going 10 on. But if you see me here, and you know that 11 that's important. Then you should at least 12 make the effort to make sure hey, did you know? 13 : Right. 14 : I mean we're not -. 15 : And being that the 16 captain doesn't work when you work at nights 17 especially. It sounds like from July 30th to 18 the time that this happened. 19 : At some point in time. 20 : So would that have been 21 the other ops lieutenant? His requirement to 22 tell you. 23 : At some point in 24 time. I'm sure. The captain seen me between 25 July 30th and every day at some point EFTA00114176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2_ 1 thereafter. 2 : Okay. So by saying the 3 captain, does that mean you believe the captain 4 is the one who should have told you that? 5 : If the captain knew, 6 the captain should have made sure that we knew. 7 : Okay. 8 : You know, there's a 9 there's a - there's a - there's a chain. 10 : And that's my question is 11 who is that chain of command? Who was 12 responsible for letting you know? The captain? 13 : If he knew. 14 : Okay. So -. 15 : He should have 16 ensured. He should have made sure that we all 17 knew. 18 : Alright. 19 : That we were aware of 20 that information. That we knew. 21 : So the person that should 22 have told you is the captain? That's what I'm 23 getting at. 24 : Whoever was 25 responsible for ensuring that inmate's safety EFTA00114177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 and wellbeing. Whoever had a stake in that 2 should have been making sure that everybody 3 knew. Whether it was the warden making sure or 4 the AQ. 5 : Sure. So if the warden 6 contacted the captain and told the captain hey 7 make sure all your lieutenants know -. 8 : Whether it was the 9 warden telling the AWs, the AWs telling the 10 captains and telling them to tell us. 11 : But the person above you. 12 So let's say. Take this as like what I'm 13 telling you. 14 : It could have been -. 15 It could have been another officer, sir, that 16 knew and didn't. 17 : Okay. And that's my 18 question. 19 : And could have said 20 hey. 21 : So in this instance, if 22 the warden told the captain, the captain you 23 know telling the lieutenants. Should have it 24 been both your relieving ops lieutenant as well 25 as the captain are the ones that should have EFTA00114178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 been telling you this? 2 : Which one? Which 3 relieving? 4 : Well in this case it 5 would have been 6 : I mean, but you said 7 the email came out on July 30th. 8 : Sure. But I'm saying -. 9 : So it could have been 10 anybody between -- 11 : But then to back up 12 13 : -- then forward. 14 should have told 15 told you. Or should have the 16 captain told all three? 17 : We should have had - 18 we should have known that way, way before that 19 day. 20 : Well they did know. 21 : Okay. 22 : And so that's my question 23 is for you. 24 : Okay. 25 : So they knew, the captain EFTA00114179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 knew. The warden knew. You didn't know. Who 2 should have told you? Should have your 3 relieving ops lieutenants told you? Or should 4 have your captain told you? 5 : Whoever knew that day 6 that he was left without a cellie. And who 7 came in contact with me should have, you know. 8 : Okay. So the highest 9 level basically the highest officer. So if 10 knew it would have been - and he didn't 11 tell the captain, it would have been his 12 responsibility to either told the captain and 13 the ops lieutenant next to him. And that ops 14 lieutenant should have told the captain or you. 15 The point being the information never go to 16 you. 17 : I never was told. 18 : Sure. No. And that's 19 why. 20 : I never was told that: 21 he didn't' have a cellie on that day. 22 : Okay. 23 : But as far as what 24 somebody supposed to do is clearly left up to 25 that individual and what their knowledge is and EFTA00114180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 how much they know. How long they've been on 2 the job and how well they do their job and so 3 forth and so on. 4 : Okay. 5 : All of us don't 6 necessarily handle things all the same way. 7 We're not all - we don't all think alike. We 8 don't share the same brain. So how one person 9 handle it is not necessarily how somebody else 10 would have handled it. But -. 11 : Sure. But everybody has 12 their duties and responsibilities. And that's 13 it. 14 : That's correct. 15 : Alright. 16 : Just one left. In regard to 17 August 9th and 10th. Is there anything that we 18 forgot that we didn't ask or that you think we 19 should have asked about? Any important details 20 that we might have missed? 21 : Concerning Epstein? 22 : Concerning Epstein. 23 : No. 24 : Okay. 25 : Not that I can think EFTA00114181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 2 3 4 5 of. : That's it. Alright. It is currently 12:39 p.m. on June 14, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 6 turning of the recorder. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and I am EFTA00114182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Marci Bratton, Transcriber EFTA00114183