EFTA00114475.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 AUGUST 4, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00114475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00114476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I'm a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. This interview with Federal 7 Bureau of Prisons employee is 8 being conducted as part of an official U.S. 9 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 10 General investigation. Today's date is August 11 4, 2021, and the time is 9:24 a.m. This 12 interview is being conducted at the 13 Metropolitan Correctional Center, known as the 14 MCC, located in New York, New York. Also 15 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 16 Do you want to show him your credentials? 17 : Thank you. 18 MR. : This interview will be 19 recorded by me, SSA . Could 20 everyone please identify themselves for the 21 record and spell your last name? To start, 22 again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior Special Agent 23 24 MR. : I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent 25 EFTA00114477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And you, sir? 2 : I am Correctional Counselor 3 , C-A-N-N-A-T-A. 4 MR. : Correctional Counselor? 5 : Yes, sir. 6 MR. : And what did you say 7 that, what level was that? Nine? 8 : GS-9. 9 MR. : GS-9. Great. Thank you, 10 sir. This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation 11 into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and 12 the surrounding circumstances, and you are 13 being asked to voluntarily provide answers to 14 our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 : Yes. 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. We have 18 a form, it's the DOJ/OIG form 3-226/2. It's 19 the United States Department of Justice, Office 20 of the Inspector General, Warnings and 21 Assurances to Employee Requested to Provide 22 Information on a Voluntary Basis. "You are 23 being asked to provide information as part of 24 an investigation being conducted by the Office 25 of the Inspector General. This investigation EFTA00114478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 is being conducted, pursuant to the Inspector 2 General Act of 1978, as amended. This 3 investigation pertains to job performance 4 failure and security failure. This is a 5 voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do not 6 have to answer questions. No disciplinary 7 action will be taken against you if you choose 8 not to answer questions. Any statement you 9 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 10 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 11 proceedings, or both." 12 And there's a waiver section. It says, "I 13 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 14 above, and I am willing to make a statement and 15 answer questions. No promises or threats have 16 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 17 any kind has been used against me." If you 18 want to take a second to look at that, if you 19 agree with it, you can, there's an employee 20 signature where you would sign, and then you 21 would print your name under here, where it says 22 employee's name. 23 Thank you, sir, for signing. Do you 24 understand the form? 25 : Yes. EFTA00114479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 MR. : Thank you. All right. 2 The date and time, Wednesday, August -- 3 MR. : Fourth. 4 MR. : -- 4, 2021, and the time 5 is 9:26 a.m. now. So, 8/4/21, at 9:26 a.m. 6 Place: MCC, New York. I am signing as the top 7 line. Once again, this is 8 and printing below. Special Agent can 9 you just sign as a witness and then put your 10 name below? Thank you. 11 MR. : This is Agent . I'm 12 signing as a witness and printing my name. 13 MR. : All right. So, before we 14 start the interview, I would like to place you 15 under oath. , can you please raise 16 your right hand? Do you swear to tell the 17 truth and nothing but the truth during this 18 interview? 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : Thank you, sir. What is 21 your date of birth? 22 23 MR. : And your SSN? 24 25 MR. : Thank you. And your EFTA00114480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 current home address? 2 -: 3 4 MR. : And your current 5 celiphone number? 6 -: 7 MR. : And what is your current 8 position again? 9 : Correctional Counselor. 10 MR. : And how long have you 11 been in that position? 12 : Since February 2020. 13 MR. : Okay. And what were you 14 prior to that? 15 : A Lieutenant. 16 MR. : Great. Were you 17 previously interviewed under this 18 investigation? 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : All right. Awesome. I'- 21 just going to review the report that was 22 generated, based upon your interview. I'm 23 going to go kind of, a little slower through 24 it, so that you can actually grasp and 25 understand what it is that they wrote. I just EFTA00114481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 want to make sure that everything that they 2 wrote is accurate. 3 : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : And just stop me if 5 anything is not accurate. 6 : Okay. 7 MR. : All right. It says, "The 8 following interview was conducted by Assistant 9 United States Attorney, AUSA, Rebecca 10 Donaleski, D-O-N-A-L-E-S-I-I, and Office of the 11 Inspector General, Special Agent David 12 Carpenter. Also present for the interview was 13 Federal Bureau of Investigation Special Agent 14 Arthur Sacco, S-A-C-C-O." 15 ," and it says your date 16 of birth, "was interviewed at the United States 17 Attorney's Office, 1 St. Andrew Plaza, New 18 York, New York. After being advised of the 19 nature of the interview, and the identities of 20 the interviewing AUSA and Special Agents, 21 provided the following information." 22 stated he worked for the Bureau 23 of Prisons, BOP, since approximately January 24 15, 2001." 25 : Yes. EFTA00114482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 MR. : "Prior to employment with 2 the BOP, worked for the Building and 3 Maintenance Union, the Marine Corps Reserve, 4 and the New York Police Department Auxiliary." 5 : Yes. 6 MR. : stated he joined 7 the BOP as a Correctional Officer and was 8 promoted to Lieutenant in October 2015." 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : "He spent one year at the 11 Federal Correctional Institution, Fort Dix, 12 when he first joined the BOP and had spent the 13 remainder of his tenure at the Metropolitan 14 Correctional Center." 15 : Yes. 16 MR. "Captain 17 was his supervisor." 18 : Yes. 19 MR. : Who is your supervisor 20 now? 21 : Right now, it's Nathaniel 22 . (Phonetic Sp. *00:06:15) He's my Unit 23 Manager. 24 MR. : Okay. stated a 25 GS-9 Lieutenant's responsibilities depend EFTA00114483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 largely on which area of the prison he or she 2 was assigned to, which rotated on a quarterly 3 basis." 4 : Yes. 5 MR. : "Those duties include 6 operations, activities, solitary housing, 7 special investigations, and administration, as 8 well as possible collateral duties, such as 9 emergency protection." 10 : Emergency preparedness. 11 Same thing. 12 MR. : Okay. Preparedness? 13 : It would be the EPO is what 14 the title was. 15 MR. : Sure. I understand. 16 stated he was assigned as the 17 Activities Lieutenant at the time of the 18 interview, and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 19 p.m. shift." 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : And then on the daily 22 schedule, it actually listed 4 to 12, correct? 23 You just came in two hours early? 24 : Well, what lieutenants were 25 doing, we always did two hour reliefs for each EFTA00114484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 other. 2 MR. : Okay. But if I was to 3 actually look at that daily schedule -- 4 : I believe it would show 4 to 5 12, or actually, if it was activities, 6 Activities Lieutenants at that time were 6 to 2 7 and 2 to 10. Operations Lieutenants were on 8 the 8 to 4, 4 to 12, 12 to 8 rotation. 9 MR. : Okay. I see what you're 10 saying. So, there's no actual two hour change, 11 when you're looking at an Activities 12 Lieutenant? 13 : Yeah, no. 14 MR. : It is what the actual 15 daily assigned roster said? 16 : It is what the time, yeah. 17 I forgot what the, it's been a while. I forgot 18 the shift number. 19 MR. : Absolutely. But, so, the 20 Activities and the Ops Lieutenant were working 21 the same hours? 22 : They will, they piggyback, 23 but let's say, like, the 2 p.m. Activities 24 Lieutenant, I would be here on the, still under 25 the Day Watch Lieutenant, and then the Evening EFTA00114485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Watch Lieutenant would roll in, if they're 2 going by 8 to 4. Cause I, as an Evening Watch 3 Activities Lieutenant, I worked 2 p.m. to 10 4 p.m. But if, like, if the Day Watch Lieutenant 5 was still there 8 to 4, I would be working two 6 hours with him or her. 7 MR. : Yeah, so, I guess what 8 I'm asking is, I thought at this time, in 9 August of 2019, they were allowing the Ops 10 Lieutenants to come in two -- 11 : We were. We were doing two 12 hour reliefs for each other. 13 MR. : So, you were actually 14 working the same hours? 15 : Same hours. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : Yes, sir. 18 MR. : Great. So, you were, 19 both Ops and Activities were 2 to 10 at the 20 time? 21 : Yes. 22 MR. : Perfect. 23 : Well, I think that's what 24 was assigned to. I can't recall 100%. 25 MR. : Sure. And these are EFTA00114486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : When I got interviewed. 2 MR. : Sure. So, I'm going to 3 give you, right now, the daily assignment 4 rosters for both Friday, August 9, 2019, and 5 Saturday, August 10, 2019. 6 : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : It's just so that, if it 8 helps you refresh your memory, cause we're 9 talking about so long ago. All right. 10 stated he was assigned as the 11 Activities Lieutenant at the time of the 12 interview and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 13 p.m. shift. His regular days off were Mondays 14 and Tuesdays. He would, on occasion, work 15 overtime hours or switch shifts with other 16 officers." 17 : Wait, I'm sorry. Can you 18 read that again? I apologize. 19 MR. : Absolutely. Okay. So, 20 after the 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift, which we 21 just discussed. 22 : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : It says, "His regular 24 days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, 25 on occasion, work overtime hours or switch EFTA00114487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 shifts with other officers." 2 : We're not officers. We're 3 lieutenants. 4 MR. : That's probably what they 5 (Indiscernible *00:09:11). 6 : Okay. 7 MR. : So, switched shifts with 8 other lieutenants, to be able to fill in for 9 the Activities Lieutenant, is what you're 10 saying? 11 : Yeah. Or, a lot of the 12 times, we got mandated to stay. 13 MR. : Right. But only 14 lieutenants could actually fill those 15 positions, is what you're saying? 16 : Yeah. Only, well, a 17 lieutenant, only a lieutenant can fill an 18 Operations Lieutenant. 19 MR. : Correct. 20 : You could have a GS-8 21 Officer cover as an Activities Lieutenant. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : Cause, like, that Friday 24 evening, the night before, I was Operations and 25 I had an 8 as my Activities Lieutenant. I had EFTA00114488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 an officer acting as Activities. 2 MR. : Okay. So, then, people 3 could switch, that were officers? 4 : No. Only, a lieutenant 5 can't switch with an officer to fill a post. 6 They can backfill, if there's, a lieutenant 7 calls in sick. If a lieutenant is not there. 8 MR. : Okay. So you can't 9 : They can use a GS -- 10 MR. : -- you can't ask an 8, 11 say, hey, can you switch with me? It's only if 12 13 : No. Like, as an Activities 14 Lieutenant, I would have to call in sick to the 15 Captain. If I wanted a shift off, I could 16 switch with another officer. I can't 17 necessarily switch with an 8 officer. 18 MR. : Okay. And looking at 19 this daily assignment roster, I'm assuming you 20 noticed that you were actually Ops Lieutenant? 21 : Yes. I was Evening Watch 22 Operations the night before. 23 MR. : On August 9th? And then 24 was actually an 8, Acting Lieutenant? 25 : Yeah, she was a GS-8 EFTA00114489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 officer. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 : She was my Activities that 4 night. 5 MR. : I got you. All right. 6 "As there were no Activity Lieutenants assigned 7 during the overnight hours, he had no relief 8 officers." I don't know why they would have 9 wrote that sentence in there. So, I'm going to 10 read this paragraph again, just to help clarify 11 this. stated he was assigned as the 12 Activities Lieutenant at the time of the 13 interview and worked the regular 2 p.m. to 10 14 p.m. shift." 15 Again, on Friday, August 9, you were 16 actually the Ops Lieutenant and was the 17 Activities Lieutenant. It says, "His regular 18 days off were Mondays and Tuesdays. He would, 19 on occasion, work overtime hours or switch 20 shifts with other lieutenants." And in this 21 case, again, you explained -- 22 : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- that you can't 24 actually switch with lieutenants, only if you 25 get bumped and that position is filled, can an EFTA00114490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 8 officer -- 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : And then it says, "As 4 there were no Activity Lieutenants assigned 5 during the overnight hours, he had no relief 6 officers." You weren't doing overnight? 7 : No. I got relieved and went 8 home that evening. 9 MR. : I'm not exactly, were you 10 doing overtime shifts for the morning watch? 11 Is that why they would have wrote that? 12 : It could possibly be. I 13 mean, we worked overtime shifts constantly. At 14 one point in time, we were short-staffed 15 lieutenants like you wouldn't believe. We were 16 filling this building with five or six 17 lieutenants, we were running the whole 18 building. That's one of the reasons why I 19 became a counselor. I was never home. 20 MR. : Okay. So that is a 21 little confusing. What it's trying to say, 22 though, is that if you're the Ops Lieutenant, 23 on the morning watch, there is no Activities 24 Lieutenant? 25 : No. Yeah, that, no. EFTA00114491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 There's only an Activities Lieutenant until 10 p.m. MR. : Right. %•% stated the responsibilities of an Activities Lieutenant include making rounds and placing inmates in Special Housing. During rounds, they ensure officers are properly carrying out their job responsibilities and give the inmates the opportunity to address with them any concerns. stated he often attempted to walk all the tiers, based on time." So, on this, we have heard different things from different people. As an Ops Lieutenant, or an Activities Lieutenant, are you required to go into the SHU, and I'm talking specifically at this time, so August 9th, August 10th of 2019. Was a lieutenant, or i3 ohc a SHU lieutenant, was a lieutenant responsible to go to the SHU and walk the tiers and do a round with the inmates? : With the inmates? MR. : Yeah. So -- : Well, a lieutenant is supposed to, is mandatory, supposed to make rounds. EFTA00114492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 MR. : So what is the definition 2 of a lieutenant round? 3 : A lieutenant round? Well, 4 in the Special Housing or general pop? 5 MR. : Let's talk just Special 6 Housing. 7 : Okay. Special Housing, one, 8 the lieutenant walks through the 27 door, 9 that's the outer door of the SHU. Sign in, in 10 the log book. Go in, go, sit down on the 11 computer, login, do the True Scope rounds. Got 12 to enter your rounds in SHU. Go up to 10 13 South. Make the rounds up there. Same thing. 14 Enter the information in True Scope. 15 MR. : So, when you go into 9 16 South, though, and you're entering in that you 17 conducted a round, what does the round entail? 18 : Well, making sure that the 19 officers are doing their job. And like I said, 20 if time permits, if you can, you know, do it, 21 go down the range. Go one range, two ranges, 22 three ranges. 23 MR. : And that's where, so, 24 this is where we have gotten, some people are 25 saying they had to do, in order to conduct an EFTA00114493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 actual round, you have to actually walk the 2 tiers. Do you know that to be the case? 3 : Well, yeah. Cause the 4 officer has to let you down range. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : The officer has the grill 7 key. Nobody could just go down range in SHU. 8 MR. : Sure. 9 : So, the officer would have 10 to open the grill. You go down range and then 11 have to sign the rounds sheet at the end of 12 each range. 13 MR. : And I think I understand 14 what you're saying. You're saying sometimes, 15 there just wasn't time to do it 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : -- but does that actually 18 constitute a round, actually walking down the 19 range for a lieutenant? 20 : Well, not so much, the 21 officers are supposed to be making the 30 22 minute rounds. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 : The lieutenant just has to 25 make sure that that that, he or she has to go EFTA00114494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 in that unit and make sure that the officers 2 are doing their rounds. Check the rounds 3 sheets or the log book, log into True Scope, 4 and, you know, make, basically, is that 5 lieutenant is confirming that staff are doing 6 their job. 7 MR. : So, the lieutenant didn't 8 actually have to walk the tiers? 9 : No. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : No. 12 MR. : And the ranges? All 13 right. So, that was your understanding? So 14 when you're assigning the actual round that you 15 conducted, it's to say that you basically did a 16 round with your officers, to ensure they were 17 doing their job? 18 : Their job, and you go into 19 the 10 South and do the same. 20 MR. : Okay. But not that 21 you're actually conducting a round? 22 : Huh-uh. 23 MR. : Like, as far as 24 conducting a round with inmates? 25 : No. No, that's, the whole EFTA00114495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 purpose behind the 30 minute log book. 2 MR. : Right. 3 : The 30 minute round sheets. 4 MR. : Okay. AI stated on 5 weekdays, the prison takes a count at 4 p.m. 6 The Activities and Operations Lieutenant take a 7 verbal count by speaking with each unit and 8 match that number with the count slip from 9 Internal. If correct, they clear the 10 institution count. They cannot clear a count 11 until they receive a good verbal count from 12 every unit. He was not aware of any instances 13 in which the count was cleared without speaking 14 with every unit." 15 : No. 16 MR. : So that's correct, 17 though? 18 : Yeah. Yeah. 19 MR. -: ` stated he would 20 attempt to watch the camera monitors as the 21 corrections officers performed the count to 22 ensure officers were properly counting. He 23 could not monitor at all times, due to the 24 amount of activity in the Control Room." 25 : Well, it depends. During EFTA00114496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 the count, my job is mainly taking the count. 2 MR. : Right. 3 : You know, I could look up at 4 the cameras, you know, but you have a lot of 5 movement going around in Control. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 : You know, throwing keys. 8 If, let's, and there's been many times where we 9 were so short-staffed, we had one officer in 10 Control. 11 MR. : Uh-huh. 12 : So, while I'm taking the 13 count, I'm also doing C . I'm helping him 14 throw keys. You know, but as far as clearing 15 the count, yes. You cannot clear the count 16 until you get a verbal, verbal, good verbal 17 count from the Unit Officer, cause we have the 18 PP1, the El, in front of us with the actual 19 accurate count, as per Sentry. So we have to 20 compare those numbers. You write it down. We 21 compare it. So, you cross it off on the Sentry 22 paperwork, okay, 7, I'll call in a good count. 23 MR. : But, as far as, like, the 24 4 p.m. count, the Activities or Ops Lieutenant 25 has to actually be present in Control to do EFTA00114497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that? 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : And about how many people 4 are present in Control when that count is being 5 conducted? 6 : If we're fully staffed, 7 we'll have two officers and the lieutenant in 8 the Control Center. 9 MR. : Okay. Okay. So it's 10 three people in there? 11 : Yeah. It's the Control Room 12 Officer, the C&A Officer, and it would be the 13 lieutenant, Activities or Ops. 14 MR. : What does C&A stand for? 15 : Counts, truth be told, 16 have a total brain (Indiscernible *00:17:03). 17 Count -- 18 MR. : So, it's like Control 19 Number 1, Control Number 2 -- 20 : Two, yeah. 21 MR. : -- and you're saying 22 Control Number 2 is -- 23 : Control Number 2 is C&A. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 : Old school, it used to be EFTA00114498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 called C&A. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 : I know it's Counts and 4 Accountability, I think is what the acronym 5 was. 6 MR. : Okay. So that's the 7 person who actually, like, receives the counts 8 from people? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Is that what you're 11 saying? 12 : C&A is the one that does all 13 the Sentry work for all the movement, you know, 14 to make sure the roster is accurate, the 15 counts, or the unit base counts and unit counts 16 are accurate. 17 MR. : That's Control Number 2? 18 : Yeah. 19 MR. : So, in this case, if 20 you're looking at August, Friday, August 9, 21 2019, would that Control Officer Number 2, can 22 you tell me who that would have been? 23 -: (Phonetic Sp. 24 *00:17:49) for the 6 to 2 shift, and John 25 (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:51) for the 2 to EFTA00114499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 10. 2 MR. : So, as far as the 4 p.m. 3 count, that would not have been 4 : Well, would have been 5 in Control, cause he would have been the 6 Control 1 Officer. 7 MR. : Oh, I thought it was 8 Control 2 for him. 9 : Control, no, Control 1, 10 is Control 1 and is Control 2. 11 MR. : Oh, okay. So, okay. So, 12 what would Control 1's typical responsibilities 13 have been? 14 : At 4:00, the same thing. At 15 4:00, people are leaving, so that person would 16 be over at the window, throwing keys. We call 17 it throwing keys. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 : It's just, it's an 20 expression. He would be taking the keys, 21 radios, OC and stuff like that from the 22 departing staff, putting it back on the board, 23 giving them their chits and receiving chits for 24 equipment for the oncoming staff. 25 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, EFTA00114500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 it should have been, at least at 4 p.m., the 2 person that would be signing the documents and 3 taking the count should have been this 4 and not 5 : With the lieutenant. 6 MR. : With the lieutenant. 7 Okay. And after we're done with this, we'll 8 just go over some of the counts, just to -- 9 : Okay. 10 MR. : But we'll move on, just 11 to make sure we can keep moving on this. I'm 12 just going to read it over to, I can't remember 13 exactly where I left off. 14 MR. : Fourth paragraph. 15 MR. : Third paragraph? 16 MR. : Fourth. stated he 17 was normally relieved (Indiscernible *00:19:24) 18 before 10 p.m. 19 MR. : I'm just going to read 20 this last paragraph over. stated he 21 would attempt to watch the camera monitors as 22 the corrections officers performed the count to 23 ensure officers were properly counting. He 24 could not monitor at all times, due to the 25 amount of activity in the Control Room." EFTA00114501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 Again, you said that you might glance up, but 2 you're not actually, like -- 3 : Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't 4 staring. 5 MR. : Sure. Absolutely. 6 : You know? I would be 7 answering the phones, writing down the actual 8 count -- 9 MR. : Totally. 10 : -- you know, the crossing 11 off, and, you know, making the, especially if I 12 had seen that, like, if a count was being 13 delayed, I would be, like, what's the problem? 14 And I would look. You know. 15 MR. : I got you. So, you're 16 not, like, yeah, making sure they're doing 17 their job -- 18 : It's not, I'm not glued to 19 the camera. 20 MR. : -- cause you have your 21 own job to be doing, is what you're saying? 22 : Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. stated he 24 would normally relieve, be relieved before 10 25 p.m., prior to evening count. He had heard of EFTA00114502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 an instance where the count was not properly 2 completed, but he had, but it had been some 3 time in the past." So, if you're that 2 to 10 4 shift, do you do the 4, the relieving shift 5 would typically do the 10 p.m., is what you're 6 saying? 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. Do you ever do the 9 10 p.m.? 10 : On nights that I was coming 11 in for the overnight. 12 MR. : But, I mean, as the 2 to 13 10 shift, do you ever do the 10 p.m.? 14 : I probably have, but I can't 15 even recall when the last time I was. 16 MR. : Yeah, yeah. It's 17 typically that relieving officer's duty, 18 though? 19 : Yeah. The relieving 20 lieutenant. 21 MR. : Lieutenant, right. 22 : Yeah. 23 MR. : And then it says, "He had 24 heard of an instance where the count was not 25 properly completed, but it had been some time EFTA00114503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in the past." Any information on that? 2 : No. I mean, it was 3 probably, I remember when I said that. It was, 4 you always hear of the horror stories, and when 5 you come home, come in off your days off, you 6 would be, like, oh, you know, what happened the 7 other day? Or this, that, and the third. You 8 know. 9 MR. : Right. 10 : That kind of thing. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 : But I have never heard it 13 where it has been detrimental. 14 MR. : Okay. But it wasn't 15 talking specifically about, like, August 9th 16 (Indiscernible *00:21:12). 17 : No, no. I'm talking, like, 18 ten years. I wasn't even a lieutenant at the 19 time. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : You know, I was still an 22 officer. 23 MR. stated, as a 24 lieutenant, he worked to enforce policy through 25 verbal counseling and by example. Taking the EFTA00114504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 count is one of the most important duties 2 corrections," I keep on saying corrections, but 3 I know it's correctional officers "perform as 4 professionals." 5 : Right. It's accountability. 6 Inmate accountability is the most important 7 thing here. Maintain security. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : You got to make sure that 10 they're all here at the end of the day. 11 MR. : So, are you saying, like, 12 basically, counts and rounds are the most 13 important things that a correctional officer 14 does? 15 : Count, I mean, everything, 16 controlling contraband, shaking down. 17 Nowadays, with the K2, it's ridiculous. 18 MR. : Right. 19 : You know, there's a lot on 20 an officer's shoulders. 21 MR. : Right. 22 : But of course, you know, we 23 only do the counts at certain periods 24 throughout the day. You know? The officers 25 making rounds are what helps reduce the fact of EFTA00114505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 them doing the K2 or, you know, making weapons 2 or tattooing or things of that nature. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 : You know, so, of course, 5 making rounds, being visible. That's what we 6 like to say, and, like, when we're training or 7 whatever. Be visible. 8 MR. : Sure. 9 : Make the inmates see you. 10 MR. : So, counts are basically 11 to ensure everybody is there. And rounds are 12 to ensure that inmates are kind of doing what 13 they're supposed to be doing? 14 : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : And that's a perfect, what's 17 the word I'm looking for? Perfect expression. 18 MR. : Okay. Perfect example. 19 Okay. 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. -: ` stated the 22 Special Housing Unit is responsible for doing 23 rounds every 30 minutes. As the lieutenant, he 24 would sign round forms, if they were correct. 25 He had never signed off on forms that were EFTA00114506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 filled out in advance, and would report any 2 instances of that to his supervisors, if he was 3 aware of it." So, I'm assuming what you mean 4 there is, if you knew they were filled out in 5 advance? 6 : I wouldn't sign them. 7 MR. : Right. 8 : I'm not putting my John 9 Hancock on that. I would tell them 10 (Indiscernible *00:22:58). 11 MR. : But, how would you know 12 if they had filled it out in advance? You 13 mean, if -- 14 : If I went there and sat, and 15 if I walked into the SHU unit and it was 1:00, 16 I'm just throwing the time out there 17 MR. : Sure. 18 : 1:00 p.m., but I saw the 19 rounds sheet, it was 1:00 when I walked in, but 20 I look at the rounds sheet and the 1:30 rounds 21 are already filled out. 22 MR. : And would that happen? 23 : Very rarely. But I might, 24 don't think I have seen it as a lieutenant, but 25 I have heard of it happening. EFTA00114507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 MR. : But you never really, you 2 never witnessed it? 3 : But, I was trained 4 differently. I was trained, you don't put your 5 ink to paper unless it's the way it's supposed 6 to be, and if it is, tell the boss. 7 MR. : Now, back then, August of 8 2019, had you heard that people were filling 9 them out in advance? 10 : No. I didn't. 11 MR. : No? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Okay. So you're not 14 aware of anybody filling them out in advance? 15 : No. I have no personal 16 knowledge. 17 MR. : "He trained officers to 18 defer their round patterns, so inmates would 19 not be aware of their timing." 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : And that means it's just 22 not to be on an exactly 30 minute -- 23 : Yeah. Don't always make 24 your rounds at 1:05, 1:35, 1:45. Alternate 25 your rounds. The policy states, every 30 EFTA00114508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 minutes, not to exceed 40. 2 MR. : Right. 3 : You know? 4 MR. : stated he had 5 heard stories of officers not completing their 6 30 minute rounds in the SHU. Other than the 7 Jeffrey Epstein death, he had not heard of an 8 instance for approximately five to ten years." 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : So, I'm assuming what 11 you're saying here is -- 12 : Back in the days. 13 MR. : But I'm assuming what you 14 said, when you say other than Jeffrey Epstein, 15 you did hear that they did not complete their 16 30 minute rounds? 17 : I mean, bureau-wide. People 18 have gotten in trouble for it before. 19 MR. : Right. 20 : That's why, like, this 21 whole, this was all new with the fact that how 22 serious it got. 23 MR. : Okay. But you had heard 24 that, had you heard that on August 9th and 10th, 25 then, and I am assuming this means after the EFTA00114509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 fact, that people weren't conducting their 30 2 minute rounds? 3 : The only thing I heard is 4 the same thing everybody else has heard, out on 5 the street. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : What you hear in the media, 8 what you hear on social media, what you hear in 9 the newspapers. They were very quiet here. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : I was here that morning of, 12 after the fact, and we didn't get told 13 anything. 14 MR. : Are you talking about 15 August 10th? 16 : Yeah. That Saturday. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 : You know. There was a total 19 blackout. We were kept in the dark. 20 MR. : And you hadn't heard 21 anything about, like, people not conducting 22 counts or rounds? 23 : No. Just, well, like I 24 said, the same thing you heard out on the 25 street. EFTA00114510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 MR. : But, I mean, not from 2 inside the institution? 3 : No. 4 MR. : No one was speaking about 5 that? 6 : Well, I mean, the whispers, 7 here and there, but nothing was confirmed. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : You know? Of course, when 10 something like this, look, it's, I have been 11 doing this almost 21 years. When something, 12 God forbid happens like this, everybody Monday 13 morning quarterbacks. 14 MR. : Sure. 15 : Everybody talks, oh, they 16 must have done this, or they didn't do this. 17 That's all I have heard. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 : I didn't hear nothing 20 official, if that's what you're asking. 21 MR. : Yeah. No, no, no. 22 : I have heard rumor mills. 23 MR. : I just wanted to know -- 24 : There were whispers. This, 25 that, and the other thing. EFTA00114511 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I would just assume 2 people would have been talking inside the 3 institution. I wanted to make sure that you 4 also heard it inside the institution, not just 5 through the media? 6 : Yeah. No, I mean, I, like, 7 as far as a whisper here and a rumor here, I 8 chose to stay away from it, because, one, I was 9 a supervisor and two, I know what was coming 10 down. 11 MR. : Sure. 12 : I knew how serious it was 13 going to be. And I was not going to entertain 14 any of that. 15 MR. : Sure. So, you had heard 16 people saying that there were rounds and counts 17 weren't complete; however, you didn't put any 18 credibility to it -- 19 : No. 20 MR. : -- because it wasn'- 21 official? 22 : No. It wasn't, it wasn't 23 official. It was just rumor mills. It was 24 whispers. It was Monday morning 25 quarterbacking, for lack of better terms. EFTA00114512 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 MR. : Okay. But that was a 2 correct, was that a correct assessment, which I 3 just -- 4 : Yes. Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : I apologize. I don't mean 7 to go long-winded on it. 8 MR. : No, no, no. Just cause 9 when I said it, you said, no, but I just wanted 10 to make sure you actually meant yes. 11 : Yeah, no. Like, I heard -- 12 MR. : With what, I know, I 13 understand -- 14 : -- nothing official. Yeah. 15 MR. : Right, yeah, yeah. 16 just, cause for the transcript, it will read 17 that you're contradicting what I said, and I 18 just want to make sure -- 19 : No problem. 20 MR. : -- what I said was 21 actually accurate. Okay. 22 : Uh-huh. 23 MR. -: ' stated he 24 recalled suicides taking place in MCC in 2003 25 and another several years later." So, I guess, EFTA00114513 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what you're saying is that since you have 2 worked, maybe there was about two suicides? 3 : I had one, I was personally 4 involved in one in 2003, and that's the one 5 that I was, that I referenced. There was one 6 years later. I don't recall what year it was, 7 or the outcome of that one. I just know that 8 the one that I was involved in, the officer in 9 charge in the SHU unit got suspended for it. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : So, the rounds were made, 12 but they weren't within that 30 to 40 minute, 13 so the OIC got hit on that one. 14 MR. : And do you know why the 15 OIC? 16 : I think the rounds, I think, 17 if I can recall correctly, I think when he 18 entered the round, about 40 minutes, but it 19 turned out it didn't jive with the camera. So 20 they suspended him. 21 MR. : All right. So, if the 22 time that he wrote on the paper didn't show 23 : Didn't jive with the camera. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible 25 *00:27:38). EFTA00114514 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 : Like, the reason, the camera 2 showed we were making rounds. We just didn't 3 make them between 30 and 40, that 30 minute, 4 not to exceed 40, I believe it just didn't jive 5 with the camera. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : And they hit him. 8 MR. : And were you actually 9 working in the SHU at the time? 10 : I was in the SHU at the 11 time. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : I was one of the officers 14 that cut that inmate down and we tried to do 15 CPR on him. We did CPR on him. We got him 16 down to Medical, and then they rushed him out 17 in an ambulance. 18 MR. : And just out of 19 curiosity, in that case, at about what time was 20 he found? 21 : Oh, that was, like, 3:30 22 something. 23 MR. : In the afternoon? 24 : It was before the 4 p.m. 25 count. EFTA00114515 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So it happened 2 actually in the afternoon? 3 : Yeah. That was on day 4 shift. 5 MR. : Did he have a cellmate at 6 the time? 7 : Yes, he did. 8 MR. : And the cellmate didn't 9 notice? 10 : His cellmate said, yo, you 11 want to take care of this? 12 MR. : Oh, wow. 13 : And he was strung up. 14 MR. : Was it also from, where 15 was it, where was he hanging from? 16 : He had the thing tied up. 17 He was between the bunk and the window. 18 MR. : Okay. Was he attached to 19 the bunk or what was he attached to? 20 : I think he was attached to 21 the window, if I recall. I honestly don't 22 remember. That was a long time ago. 23 MR. : Sure, sure, sure. 24 : It was either the top of the 25 bunk or to the window. He was between, I do EFTA00114516 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 remember he was between the bunk and the 2 window. 3 MR. : But that's important to 4 note. So he actually had a cellmate at the 5 time? 6 : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And he still was able to 8 successfully - 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : -- and it was deemed a 11 suicide, not a murder? 12 : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 : Cause his cellmate never got 15 charged. 16 MR. : And do you know what he 17 used to hang himself? 18 : I believe it was cut-up 19 bedsheets. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : If I recall correctly. 22 MR. : All right. And that was 23 the 2001 or 24 : That was 2003. 25 MR. : That was the 2003 one? EFTA00114517 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 : I don't remember exactly the 2 dates or the stipulations on the one that 3 happened years later. 4 MR. : Do you happen to remember 5 the name of that inmate? 6 : Of that committed suicide? 7 Edwards, I believe. 8 MR. : Edwards? 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. N -stated he 11 was on duty the night Epstein was brought to 12 MCC. He was received at the rear gate and 13 observed him being processed in." 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : "At the time of his 16 arrival, Epstein was deemed okay to go to 17 general population. was unaware of his 18 high profile." 19 : Yes. I remember when he 20 came in. The only thing that I remember that 21 stuck out in my mind, he went to the same high 22 school that I did. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 : I graduated from the same 25 high school. Cause the cop, I think he was an EFTA00114518 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 NYPD task force guy with the FBI, he was from 2 Brooklyn and we chatted, cause we had Brooklyn 3 accents, and come, you know, me and the cop 4 were from, like, basically, the same area in 5 Brooklyn, and he was, like, what high school 6 did you graduate from? And I said, Lafayette, 7 and Epstein actually said, so did I. I 8 graduated from Lafayette High School. 9 MR. : Interesting. 10 : I processed him. Sent him 11 up. I actually found out that they moved him 12 to the Special Housing because of his profile 13 status when I came back to work. 14 MR. : So, you had no idea who 15 he was? 16 : I had no idea who he was. 17 As a matter of fact, the next morning, my wife 18 actually said, you'll probably be getting him 19 soon. And showed me the phone, you know, the 20 news feed, and I said, soon? We got him last 21 night. Then I knew who he was. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : And then when I came, by the 24 time I came back to work, though, he was 25 already in SEC (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:35). EFTA00114519 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 MR. : Interesting. Okay. So, 2 it was just within 24 hours, he was moved from 3 general population to SHU? 4 : I believe so. I believe, 5 less, I believe less than 48, definitely. 6 MR. : Okay. All right. 7 stated he knew Epstein to be in visits 8 often with his legal counsel." 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : "Often until 7 to 8 p.m." 11 : Yes. 12 MR. : "Other than the intake 13 questions Epstein answered on his arrival, 14 had no other personal interaction with 15 him." 16 : No. 17 MR. : So you never just, you 18 never -- 19 : Never chatted with him. i 20 would just escort him. Cause at one point in 21 time, a lieutenant had to move him. 22 MR. : Okay. And what about 23 when you would visit the SHU? Would you ever 24 check in on his cell or anything like that? 25 Would you ever look through the door or say, EFTA00114520 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 hey, what's up? : Right. When he was on, like, when he would be on one tier, I remember, I think, at one point in time, he was on H 5 tier, if I'm not mistaken. The only time I 6 would really see him on the tier is when I 7 would escort him. 8 MR. : And what would you, what 9 would be the purpose of escorting him? 10 : Down to attorney conference, 11 for his legal visits. 12 MR. : Okay. So, would that be, 13 then, in the morning, you would do that? 14 : It would be all day long. 15 He would get legal visits all day, into the 16 evening. 17 MR. : And he would be going 18 back and forth between the SHU? 19 : Well, most of the time, he 20 would get brought downstairs and he would be 21 there for hours. 22 MR. : Right. 23 : There would be times he 24 would be in legal visits through the count. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00114521 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 : The officers would have to 2 do the out count. 3 MR. : Yeah, so my understanding 4 was that he would basically be brought down 5 around 8 a.m. and stay until almost 8 p.m. Is 6 that -- 7 : A lot of the times, he 8 would. 9 MR. : So not always, though? 10 : Sometimes, he would go back 11 to SHU and then a different attorney would come 12 in and he would be brought back down in the 13 afternoon. 14 MR. : Oh, I see. 15 : You know, he had legal 16 visits in and out of here all day long. 17 MR. : Okay. So, you talk about 18 when you would escort him, would be that kind 19 of middle timeframe? 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. : So if he ever went back 22 to the SHU -- 23 : Depending on what shift I 24 was on. 25 MR. : Okay. And when you were EFTA00114522 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 escorting him, would you communicate with him? 2 : Basically, how are you 3 doing? All right. Well, I don't, I don't get 4 too chummy with inmates. 5 MR. : Sure. I would just, you 6 know, with Epstein, I'm assuming, it might 7 stand out in your little, you know, in your 8 head a little bit more. Do you know the last 9 time that you had escorted him or 10 (Indiscernible *00:32:35)? 11 : I was about to escort him 12 the night before he died. 13 MR. : And what happened? 14 : I was in the lieutenant's 15 office, and the attorney conference officer 16 said, hey, Lou, he's ready to go. But Mr. 17 was here, and was, like, Lou, 18 will take him up. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 : And he said, you know, by 21 the way, I'm going to take him up. I'm going 22 to give him a legal call. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 : I was, like, okay. No 25 problem. is a GS-12, so. I was like, EFTA00114523 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 no problem. He was being escorted by a 2 supervisor, so I went back into the 3 lieutenant's office. 4 MR. : All right. 5 : And that was the last time I 6 saw him. 7 MR. : So, is the one 8 who escorted him from attorney conferences on 9 August 9'h? 10 : Was it the 9th or 19'h? 11 MR. : The 9th. So, August 9, 12 2019. 13 : Okay. Yeah. That Friday 14 night. 15 MR. : He was found on August 16 10th. 17 : The Friday night. 18 MR. : Right. Okay. 19 : I forget the actual date. I 20 remember it being a Friday. I just forgot the 21 date. 22 MR. : And do you remember, 23 though, the last time you had interacted with 24 him? 25 : No, I do not. I don't EFTA00114524 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 recall. 2 MR. : No? Okay. And then 3 again, back to SHU, when you would visit the 4 SHU and do a round, would you peek in on his 5 window or anything? Would you check with him 6 and say, everything 7 : I mean, sometimes, his cell 8 was right over where the OIC desk was. 9 MR. : Right. 10 : And I could look right into 11 his cell, and most of the time, I would see him 12 in it. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 : And didn't interact with him 15 though. 16 MR. : But not actually check in 17 and say, are you good or anything like that? 18 : No. If I was making a round 19 downrange, I would peek in. I would peek in 20 all the cells, if I'm downrange. 21 MR. : Right. 22 : But not on a regular basis, 23 no. 24 MR. : Okay. stated he 25 was not involved officially in regard to EFTA00114525 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 Epstein's first alleged suicide attempt. His 2 only other involvement with Epstein was to 3 bring him food while in the SHU." 4 : Yeah, if he was on G tier. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : Cause on G tier, the 7 lieutenants have to, have the key to the wicket 8 to be able to feed, but if he was on a regular 9 tier, no. There was times when, and when he 10 was a lieutenant hold, a lieutenant had to open 11 his, be there every time his slot was opened. 12 But he wasn't always on a lieutenant hold. 13 MR. : Can you explain that 14 more? Cause G tier is like the 10 South of the 15 SHU, right? 16 : G tier is like a mini, it's 17 almost like 10 South. The inmates are self- 18 sustained in there. They have their own 19 shower. They have their own, you know, it's 20 basically, it's a bigger room. It's almost 21 like the 10 South rooms. But also the same 22 thing, the SHU lieutenant, or if the SHU 23 lieutenant, afterhours, there's no SHU 24 lieutenant, only a lieutenant can open those 25 (Indiscernible *00:34:50) boxes. The wickets. EFTA00114526 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tier? MR. : So, was Epstein ever on G : I don't recall. I don't remember. MR. : So what does this mean by his only other involvement with Epstein was to bring him food? : Food. When they're a lieutenant hold, even if they're in a regular SHU cell, a lieutenant has to be present to open the slot. Even though the lieutenant doesn't have to open it himself, the lieutenant has to be there when the slot is opened. MR. : So, anytime inmates are served food in the SHU, a lieutenant has to be present? : No. Not every inmate. Only if the inmate is a lieutenant move. Like, if a lieutenant has to be present, like, high security. Like if they're assaultive. Inmates could be put -- MR. : So, was Epstein ever a lieutenant move?(Indisccrniblc *00:35:23). : I'm not 100% sure. MR. : So, that's where I'm just EFTA00114527 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 trying to get the accuracy of this thing, so 2 it's only -- 3 : I don't, I don't remember. 4 That's the problem. I remember -- 5 MR. : So, do you remember ever 6 bringing Epstein food in the SHU? 7 : I fed him before. But that 8 might have also been just because I happened to 9 be downrange. I can't recall if, I don't 10 recall if he was ever actually a lieutenant 11 hold. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : I remember he had to be 14 escorted from attorney conference. So that's 15 what, cause that's what -- 16 MR. : How would his feeding be 17 done, when he was in attorney conference? 18 Would they, would you feed him? 19 : Sometimes, they would get a 20 bag lunch. And they would take it up with 21 them. 22 MR. : So, as in, like, when -- 23 : I don't remember if he ever 24 ate in the attorney conference room, but he 25 wouldn't get the food from the food cart there. EFTA00114528 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 He would get, like, the bag lunch from R&D. 2 MR. : So, like, if he, when he 3 was escorted in the morning, they would give 4 him a bag lunch to bring into the attorney -- 5 : Yeah. Well, like, they 6 have, sometimes, I believe, he would get, I'm 7 not sure, he could be escorted back to the 8 Special Housing to eat his meal. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : Use the restroom or 11 whatever, and go down, but they get to use the 12 restroom when they're in attorney conference, 13 anyway. 14 MR. : Okay. So you're not 15 exactly sure how he was fed, then? 16 : Not down in attorney 17 conference, no. 18 MR. : Okay. Cause he was there 19 every day, right? 20 : Yes. He was there pretty 21 much every day. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : That I recall. 24 MR. : All right. So, the food, 25 I'm assuming, would have taken place more at, EFTA00114529 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 like, what time, you know, when he would get, 2 return back at the 8 p.m. mark. Would that be 3 when he would be fed? 4 : Well, he would, if he was 5 given the food in R&D, like, not R&D, the bag 6 lunches, he would have it given to him in 7 attorney conference and he would take it with 8 him. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : You know, if he was going to 11 eat past dinnertime, but also, a lot of the 12 times, too, if he was, like, not just him. Any 13 inmate. If they're downstairs, the officers 14 could also place the food in his cell, and he 15 could have the food when he comes back from 16 attorney conference. 17 MR. : Okay. So, they can go in 18 his cell ahead of time, put it in there, even 19 if he had a cellmate? 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. And there was 22 never problems with, like, the other cellmate - 23 24 : No. I mean, for the most 25 part, the inmates respect each other. EFTA00114530 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 MR. Okay. stated he 2 was aware Epstein had been moved back to the 3 SHU, and that he was required to have a 4 roommate, per a mass email he had received." 5 : Yeah. It went out to all 6 lieutenants. 7 MR. : So, you received an 8 email, saying that Epstein was required to have 9 a cellmate? 10 : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. And was that 12 requirement still in place on August 9, 2019? 13 : I believe so. 14 MR. : Okay. N -stated he 15 did not have any conversations with anyone 16 regarding Epstein's need for a roommate, a 17 cellmate." So no one ever verbalized that to 18 you? 19 : Just in the email. 20 MR. : Just the -- 21 : And Psychology would let -s 22 know. 23 MR. : Would Psychology actually 24 verbalize it? 25 : I mean, basically, yeah. EFTA00114531 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 Like, for lack of, they would say that, you 2 know, not on a daily basis. They would just 3 say, any kind of, especially if they have had a 4 suicide attempt in the past, they get put on 5 what's called the hot list. Psychology threats 6 are always on the hot list. Inmates that are 7 on the hot list should always have a bunkie. 8 MR. : Okay. So, anybody on the 9 hot list gets a bunkie? 10 : As long, if it's dictated in 11 there by Psychology. Psychology fills out the 12 hot list. 13 MR. : Right. 14 : And it gets, they update it. 15 MR. : So, is Psychology's hot 16 list, is it just for the people that need 17 cellmates or is it also people that can't have 18 cellmates? What is the hot list? 19 : What do you mean? Can or 20 can't? What do you mean? 21 MR. : Can't, cause aren't there 22 some people that have, like, you know, 23 (Indiscernible *00:38:34). 24 : Separation, no, the hot list 25 doesn't pertain, the hot list is psychological. EFTA00114532 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 It's from Psychology. Psychology generates it. 2 MR. : So, if you're on the hot 3 list, everybody gets a cellmate? 4 : Yeah. If it's annotated in 5 there. It will, every inmate's, in the hot 6 list, a picture of the inmate is in there. 7 That is, whether he or she is in for a Psych 8 study or a forensic study or what have you, and 9 it will say, you know, suicide attempts in the 10 past. Or cutter. Or what have you. 11 MR. : And where would that hot 12 list be? 13 : The hot list is kept in SHU. 14 MR. : Where in the SHU? 15 : It should be in a, either on 16 a clipboard or in a folder. 17 MR. : And do you know where it 18 was on August 9, 2019? 19 : It should have been, I'm not 20 100% sure. I can't recall, but it should have 21 been on a clipboard on the hook. 22 MR. : And are the officers 23 : By the officers' station. 24 MR. : Are the officers that are 25 in SHU required to look at that hot list? EFTA00114533 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : All right. So, they 3 should know -- 4 : They should be familiar with 5 who is on the hot list. 6 MR. : So, is everybody that 7 worked in the SHU, should have they known that 8 Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Is there any reason for 11 someone to say that they didn't know that 12 Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 13 : Unless they weren't assigned 14 to the post and they were thrown in there on 15 overtime or mandated to work overtime and they 16 weren't familiar with it, that can happen. But 17 if you're steady, assigned to that post, you 18 should be familiar with the hot list. 19 MR. : Okay. And is there any 20 kind of requirement for people, like, overtime 21 that are, you know, not regularly working in 22 the SHU, to be either briefed on the hot list 23 or to review the hot list when they joined? 24 : It all depends. Like, I 25 mean, a good SHU officer, worth his weight in EFTA00114534 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 salt, would at least talk the staff member 2 through it. But, like I said, there was plenty 3 of times where the entire SHU crew were all 4 overtimers. 5 MR. : Right. 6 : So, nobody came to work. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 : And a lot of the times, you 9 would have SHU crews, never mind just SHU 10 crews, institutional staff that would be 11 zombies, because they had been getting stuck 12 four days in a row. So a lot of the times, 13 things, you know, it's a lot to absorb. You 14 just, you're trying to do the job. 15 MR. : Okay. So, looking at the 16 August 9, 2019, roster, and I'm going to say 17 from the 8 a.m. hour on to the end of the day, 18 for the people that were working in the SHU, 19 can you tell me who you believe should have 20 known that he was required to have a cellmate: 21 : For the day shift or the 22 evening shift? 23 MR. : Just from 8 a.m. on. 24 : 8 a.m. on. All right. 25 Well, it looks, there was three officers, EFTA00114535 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 and basically, is 6 to 2. 2 is a senior staff member. 3 (Phonetic Sp. *00:41:12) was a rookie. Officer 4 Monge is a senior staff member. So, three out 5 of the four on the day shift. 6 MR. : So, you're saying 7 everybody but 8 : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- should have known? 10 Okay. What about for the evening shift? 11 : Evening shift? All right. 12 had a couple of years on the job. The 13 SHU floor was unassigned, because we were 14 short. There was only three officers. 15 is non-custody. So, would 16 not be super familiar with it, because he 17 worked warehouse. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 : And he's with commissary. 20 MR. : Was he a -- 21 : Noel was fairly new. She 22 had, maybe, just a little over a year on the 23 job. 24 MR. : But if Noel was a regular 25 SHU person, that was her quarterly post, should EFTA00114536 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 she have known what the hot list was? 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : And should have she known 4 that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 5 : Yes. You have to sign for 6 the hot, you have to sign that you reviewed the 7 hot list. 8 MR. : Oh, you do have to sign 9 that? 10 : Yeah. Uh-huh. 11 MR. : All right. And who, when 12 do you sign that? 13 : Last I checked, I don't, I 14 can't get quoted on this, cause I'm not 100% 15 certain. We would sign it a lot, like, well, 16 at least the lieutenants, would sign it when we 17 would do lieutenants meetings and meet with 18 Psychology and go, review the hot list, we 19 would all sign for it. 20 MR. : Now, I'm assuming the hot 21 list is ever-changing, correct? 22 : Yes. Psychology always 23 updates it. 24 MR. : So, how often does the 25 hot list have to be signed? EFTA00114537 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 : Every time it gets updated, 2 and they put a new one, it should be reviewed. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 : And I don't, I honestly 5 haven't seen it in a while, cause now, my 6 contact with Special Housing is limited, now 7 that I'm a counselor. 8 MR. : Did you make that note? 9 MR. : Yeah. Can I ask a question 10 on that? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : What exactly are you signing? 13 : That you reviewed the hot 14 list. 15 MR. : But, is that, like, a form or 16 is it on the copy -- 17 : It's a sign-in sheet. 18 MR. : A sign-in sheet? 19 : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And you know that 22 lieutenants had to, but do you believe the 23 officers had to sign the review of the hot 24 list? 25 : I'm not 100% sure, but I EFTA00114538 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 know, as they have, they're require to review 2 the hot list. They should be familiar with 3 that hot list. Know who their psychological 4 inmates are, just as well as reviewing the 5 posted picture file. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : To know who your high 8 profile and your dangerous inmates are. 9 MR. : All right. So, at that 10 time, you being an Activities or in this case, 11 an Ops Lieutenant, would have you had to have 12 reviewed and signed the hot list in the SHU? 13 : No, no, no. It's, I would 14 sign it here. Like I said, in the lieutenants 15 meetings, we would go over it with Psychology. 16 MR. : Sorry. I mean, the SHU 17 hot list, is what I mean. 18 : No, that's the one that 19 would be there. The hot list is just generated 20 by Psychology. It's not like there's one for 21 SHU, one for the lieutenant's office, one for 22 here. It stays in SHU, but Psychology would 23 always make sure we familiarize ourselves with 24 it. 25 MR. : And is it only, is there EFTA00114539 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 only a hot list in SHU? 2 : That I know of. 3 MR. : Okay. So, my question, 4 sorry, I probably was unclear, is at this time, 5 the SHU hot list, you being the Activities 6 Lieutenant, or, in this case, the Ops 7 Lieutenant on that specific date, August 9th, 8 would you have reviewed and signed that hot 9 list? 10 : Not every day. 11 MR. : Yeah, yeah. But, like, 12 when it was -- 13 : Generated, yes. 14 MR. : Right. So, point being, 15 like, if Epstein was on the hot list, you would 16 have signed and reviewed it? 17 : Yes. Of course. I mean, 18 like I said, anybody at that point in time 19 should have known that he was going to be on 20 the hot list. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : Especially after the first 23 suicide attempt. 24 MR. : Okay. And do you think 25 anybody in the institution, with his high- EFTA00114540 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 profile nature and the fact that he had a first 2 suicide, suicide attempt, including these 3 people that you mentioned in the SHU, is there 4 any reason for anybody to say they didn't know 5 that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? 6 : I don't know. 7 MR. : You don't know? 8 : No. I mean, the people that 9 are assigned to SHU, but the problem is, if you 10 look, overtime. He wasn't assigned. Overtime. 11 She got assigned to that post, but it probably, 12 I don't believe it was her post for the 13 quarter. You know? I'm not, I don't, I can't 14 recall 100%. 15 MR. : But as far as, aren't 16 people that work in this facility, correctional 17 officers first? 18 : Of course. Of course. 19 That's the thing. 20 MR. : And if they know that the 21 high-profile nature and the fact that he tried 22 to commit suicide, don't all officers pretty 23 much know, if you try to commit suicide, you're 24 required to have a cellmate? 25 : Of course. EFTA00114541 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 MR. : So, shouldn't everyone 2 have known that he was required to have a 3 cellmate? 4 : In that sense, yes. 5 MR. : All right. And 6 especially the fact that he is in the SHU, he 7 is, at the time, I think, your most high- 8 profile inmate. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : Do you believe that they 11 should have known that he was required to have 12 a cellmate? 13 : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. stated 15 Lieutenant Rice was the SHU lieutenant. He 16 believed Lieutenant Rice would have known 17 Epstein required a roommate or a cellmate as it 18 is a regular responsibility. He believed 19 Lieutenant Rice would have enforced the 20 roommate rule. stated he had worked 21 the 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. shift on August 9, 2019. 22 He was relieved around 9:50 to 9:55 p.m. that 23 evening. He was not aware that Epstein did not 24 have a roommate." 25 : No. EFTA00114542 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 MR. : "He did not know Reyes, 2 Epstein's former roommate, had left MCC, 3 leaving Epstein without a roommate. 4 found out the following morning. He had been 5 working as Operations Lieutenant that evening. 6 R. had been working as Activities 7 Lieutenant. She had made the rounds." 8 All right, so on this, I'll guess we'll 9 just go one sentence at a time. So you didn't 10 know that day that Reyes had left the 11 institution, is what you said? 12 : No. No. 13 MR. : Now, is that -- 14 : I was unaware. 15 MR. : Now, is that something 16 that if he, if he had left, is that something 17 that you should have known? 18 : No. What happens is, when 19 inmates go to court, and then they get released 20 or transferred out, they don't necessarily tell 21 us. Basically, what happens is then, the only 22 way we're going to know anybody moved is when 23 we do the PP30 at the end of the night. Right? 24 Just to, you know, write down who -- 25 MR. : Is it PP30 or 38? EFTA00114543 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 : PP, I believe it might be a 2 38. I don't, off the top of my head, I don't 3 remember. I know it's the quarter's, the 4 movement roster. I haven't done it in a while. 5 MR. : Well, there's some of 6 those things we're going to review after -- 7 : Yeah. But I know it's a 8 Sentry, it's got to be entered in Sentry, and 9 then basically, it gets transferred over to the 10 lieutenant's log. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 : Right? At, you know, to 13 monitor what movement you had, just to make 14 sure your numbers jive with the institution 15 numbers at the end of each shift. 16 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 17 do you believe someone should have, being that 18 it was Epstein, and Epstein's cellmate, Reyes, 19 left the institution? Should someone have told 20 you this? 21 : Should somebody have told me 22 directly? 23 MR. : Yeah, as the Ops 24 Lieutenant, you have Epstein, your most high- 25 profile. He is required to have a cellmate. EFTA00114544 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 Reyes, his cellmate, leaves the institution. 2 Should someone have notified you? 3 : I would have liked to be 4 notified. 5 MR. : So, who should have 6 notified you that Reyes was -- 7 : When he departed the 8 institution, somebody should have been 9 notified. Maybe not me, but somebody should 10 have known. 11 MR. : Okay. So, if he departed 12 the institution at 8:38 a.m., and he's listed 13 as pre-remove, removed off of the records, how 14 should have that went down? 15 : If he was known to not come 16 back, then he should have had gotten a new 17 cellie. 18 MR. : Like right away? 19 : As soon as humanly possible. 20 MR. : Okay. So, if people 21 claim that they didn't, they weren't, they 22 assumed he wasn't coming back, cause he went 23 With All Belongings. So, if someone goes With 24 All Belongings -- 25 : WAB means With All EFTA00114545 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 Belongings. That means they're not coming 2 back. 3 MR. : And that's pretty much -- 4 : Most of the time, they're 5 not coming back. There are occasions where 6 they cancel the bus, or they cancel the 7 transport or Air America, they will cancel, and 8 then they'll come back, but most of the time, 9 when they go WAB, that means they're going. 10 They're either going home or going to whatever 11 institution they're getting moved to. 12 MR. : Right. So, in this case, 13 if people know that Reyes leaves at 8:30, he's 14 moved down by the OIC from the SHU to R&D, WAB. 15 What should have happened at that point? 16 : So, I would assume that 17 during the day, on a Friday, the lieutenant, 18 the SHU lieutenant is here. 19 MR. : So, if the SHU lieutenant 20 is actually off that day, no SHU lieutenant, 21 you got -- 22 : A lieutenant should have, a 23 SHU, a supervisor should have been notified. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 : And been like, hey, he don't EFTA00114546 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have a bunkie no more. 2 MR. : Okay. And if that 3 : And then it should be, you 4 know, then get him one. 5 MR. : All right. So, and if 6 the OIC, let's, for the benefit of the doubt, 7 OIC does inform one of the lieutenants, let's 8 say in this case, it looks like Activities was 9 And the Ops was 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And no action is taken by 12 them. What would be the next thing that could 13 have happened with this, to make sure, you 14 know, Epstein, high-profile, doesn't have a 15 cellmate. What should have, how could this 16 catch up to itself? How could we rectify the 17 fact that Epstein was -- 18 : Well, that's, then, if 19 nobody is notified, no one knows. 20 MR. : Right. So, would the 21 SHU, after is gone, the next, you 22 know, and his crew leaves and then the next SHU 23 crew comes in, should have they, then, said, 24 hey, Reyes isn't here. We're doing our rounds. 25 There's nobody in there. EFTA00114547 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : Should they have notified 3 the lieutenant? 4 : I should have been notified. 5 MR. : And who should have you 6 been notified by? 7 : At least the SHU crew. They 8 should have been, like, hey, this guy doesn't 9 have a cellmate. 10 MR. : If , the former Ops 11 Lieutenant, knows that, at the very least, 12 Reyes left the institution -- 13 : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : -- possibly for court. 15 Maybe he doesn't know he's WAB, but he knows 16 that he left. Should he have notified you that 17 Reyes was -- 18 : Well, if he had knowledge, 19 you know, that's part of taking over. You 20 know, the changeover. Hey, anything happen? 21 Anything I need to know? (Indiscernible 22 *00:51:00). 23 MR. : In this case, Reyes, 24 knowing that, if he knew Reyes was Epstein's 25 cellmate, had left the institution, should have EFTA00114548 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he notified you of that? 2 : I mean, if he had direct 3 knowledge, possibly. Like, that's the thing. 4 It was, no one knew. 5 MR. : But, if he says he knew, 6 he knew that, well, let's say if says, 7 yeah, I knew Reyes left. I just wasn't certain 8 he wasn't coming back. 9 : That's possible. 10 MR. : But should have he 11 notified you? 12 : I should have known about 13 it. Whether or not it was from or from 14 the SHU crew, especially cause he was a hot 15 inmate. 16 MR. : Okay. So, either 17 or the SHU crew should have informed you? 18 : Yes. 19 MR. : And no one informed you? 20 : I wasn't informed. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : I found out the next day. 23 MR. : Right. What about, I 24 know your Activities Lieutenant, you said, is 25 the one who did the round, correct? EFTA00114549 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : Should she have known, 3 Reyes is gone. Epstein is without a cellmate, 4 when she did her round? 5 : If she found it. I don't 6 know, cause I wasn't there. 7 MR. : No, no, no. I'm saying, 8 should she have, should that be, like, when she 9 is doing her round in the SHU, is that 10 something that she should have recognized? 11 : If she went downrange, 12 maybe. But if she didn't go downrange, and no 13 one told her, it would be the same ballpark. 14 No one told her. She is, you know, it's 15 unbeknownst to her. 16 MR. : When she went to the SHU, 17 should -- 18 (knocking on door) 19 MR. : -- we're in here. When 20 she went into the SHU, should the OIC crew, or 21 not the OIC, the SHU crew have told her, Reyes 22 is gone, Epstein is without a cellmate? 23 : Possibly. Yeah. I mean, a 24 lieutenant is not going to know anything unless 25 the officers relay that information to the EFTA00114550 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 lieutenant. We're not superhuman. 2 MR. : So, if she did her 3 rounds, and again, you said that she is the one 4 who did the rounds, do you believe it was their 5 responsibility to say, hey, Activities 6 Lieutenant, just so you know, no one is in that 7 cell. Reyes is gone. Just want to give you 8 the heads up. Should that have happened? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And then she would 11 have then informed you -- 12 : Of course, listen, she would 13 have definitely notified me. She is, for the 14 lack of better terms, and I don't mean to use 15 profanity, she is a shit hot lieutenant. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : She is on her job. 18 MR. : Yep. 19 : She would have definitely, 20 if she knew, she would have let me know. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : And we would have fixed it. 23 MR. : So, whoever was working 24 on her, on that shift, when she visited, should 25 certainly have informed her that Reyes was EFTA00114551 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 gone? 2 : To my understanding, yes. 3 MR. : And never told you 4 as -- 5 : No. I don't recall her 6 telling me. And like I said, just knowing her, 7 and her caliber, she would have told me. 8 MR. : Right. stated 9 if he had known Epstein did not have a 10 roommate, he would have ensured he did." 11 : Yes. 12 MR. : "And he knew him to be on 13 the hot list." 14 : Yes. 15 MR. -: % stated the 16 following morning, August 10, 2019, at 17 approximately 6:30 to 6:45 a.m., he received a 18 call from Lieutenant Stanley informing 19 him that Epstein had attempted suicide and he 20 should go straight to the hospital, instead of 21 reporting to the jail for duty." 22 : Yes. That's what I did, I 23 went straight to Beekman Hospital. 24 MR. : Okay. stated, 25 at the hospital, the escorting staff informed EFTA00114552 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him that Epstein had passed away." 2 : Yes. 3 MR. "He saw his body and told 4 his officers not to speak to anyone and direct 5 any questions to the prison public relations 6 officer." 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : Do you know who that was 9 at the time? 10 : It's usually the Executive 11 Assistant, so it should have been Lee Plourde. 12 MR. : Okay. So, Lee Plourde? 13 : Lee Plourde is the public -- 14 MR. : Yeah. "He said the same 15 to the hospital security." 16 : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. So that was not 18 people that were BOP, but the hospital -- 19 : No, yeah. There was 20 hospital security around the room, too, and I 21 was, like, no one goes in here unless it's 22 hospital staff or Bureau staff. 23 MR. : Okay. stated 24 officers P. Dupree, (Phonetic Sp. *00:54:46) S. 25 Andrea, and were on-scene at the EFTA00114553 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 hospital." 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : Now, were they people 4 that escorted Epstein to the hospital? 5 : That's what I believe, yeah. 6 They had to be, because, like I said, I was on 7 my way to the hospital. I went straight to the 8 hospital. I believe those were the three staff 9 members that they got to be the escorting 10 staff. 11 MR. : Okay. Now, as far as 12 Epstein going to the hospital, do you know when 13 he actually was deceased? 14 : I remember, my mission at 15 that point, Lieutenant had told me, go 16 straight to the hospital, tell the officers, 17 you know, keep the area secure and record time 18 of death. I think the hospital told me it was, 19 like, 7 something. I don't recall the actual 20 time, and then I called Lieutenant and 21 gave him that time, and then he was, like, all 22 right. We already got it. Bring yourself back 23 to the institution. 24 MR. : So, do you know if, prior 25 to that time, he had shown any signs of life? EFTA00114554 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : No. I am unaware. No. 2 MR. : Okay. So did anyone 3 mention to you or state to you, he died 4 actually at the prison? 5 : No. 6 MR. : They just pronounced him 7 dead there? 8 : They told me they pronounced 9 him dead. I don't remember the actual time. 10 It was 7 something, which was the time of death 11 that the hospital recorded. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And that's what I relayed 14 back to Lieutenant and then he said, all 15 right, we got it already. Come to the 16 institution. And then I left the hospital. 17 MR. : Do you believe that when 18 he was found at the BOP institution, he was 19 actually dead on scene? 20 : I don't, I don't know. 21 can't, I can't answer yes or no. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : I just know, when I saw his 24 body in the thing here, the intubation tube in 25 his neck and down his throat, and it looked EFTA00114555 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like they were working on him. 2 MR. : And they were still 3 working on him? 4 : No, no, no. They had worked 5 on him. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : He was already deceased, but 8 he still had the intubation tube down his 9 throat. 10 MR. : Okay. stated he 11 had not taken any photographs of Epstein's body 12 and advised his officers to stay with the body 13 until they could be relieved." 14 : Yes. 15 MR. -: ` stated, back at 16 the prison, he resumed his activities as 17 lieutenant and was guided to collect log books 18 and escort FBI agents as part of the death 19 investigation." 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : Were any OIG there at the 22 time? 23 : Not that I know of. There 24 were so many agents and people coming in and 25 out, taking computers, I don't, I could have EFTA00114556 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been escorting OIG and I didn't even know. 2 MR. : Sure. 3 : Basically, Captain 4 just made me go along and go and try, assist in 5 any way I could, anytime, any documents they 6 needed or whatever. That's what I did. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 : Pretty much the rest of the 9 day. 10 MR. : Okay. AI stated he 11 was not aware of the destruction of any 12 records." 13 : No. 14 MR. -: ` stated he knew 15 Officer Thomas for a few years and knew Officer 16 Noel as a newer officer, but had no personal 17 relationship with either." 18 : No. 19 MR. : All right. Cool. 20 Anything that they missed or failed to capture? 21 : No. I was being refreshed, 22 as you were reading it. 23 MR. : And that's for future, is 24 what I'm talking about. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114557 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : All right. Great. So 2 now, so, everything seemed accurate, as far as 3 this was written? 4 : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. Perfect. 6 MR. : I just have a couple of 7 follow-ups. 8 MR. : Yep. Please. Go ahead. 9 MR. : You mentioned round sheets. 10 Do you recall if here, at the MCC, in the SHU, 11 the round sheets are kept at the end of each 12 tier? Or are they kept on the desk? 13 : They're supposed to be kept 14 at the end of each range. 15 MR. : So, as a lieutenant, at that 16 point, when you made your, if you had made your 17 rounds -- 18 : If I have seen the sheets on 19 the desk, I would always tell the officers they 20 need to be downrange, not on your desk. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : And I would not initial 23 them, unless they were, I wouldn't initial them 24 unless they were accurate. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114558 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : So, on that note, then, 3 when you would go into sign that document, 4 would you always go downrange to grab it? 5 : No. There was times where I 6 would see it on the desk and I would be, like, 7 these need to be downrange. 8 MR. : So, you're, when you walk 9 into the SHU, you are supposed to walk 10 downrange to do -- 11 : To sign it. 12 MR. : -- to sign it there? 13 : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : But oftentimes, that 15 would -- 16 : As of late, as of late, that 17 is where they are now. It all depends on what 18 shift, because the morning watch lieutenant, 19 the overnight lieutenant, has those sheets 20 already sent down to that person. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 : In the thing, but you still 23 have to go up and sign the round sheets anyway. 24 Every shift, those round sheets have to be 25 signed. Cause you have to ensure that the EFTA00114559 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 officers are doing their rounds. 2 MR. : So, when did her 3 round on August 9, 2019, should she have had to 4 have gone downrange, especially on the range 5 that Epstein was on? 6 : If the round sheets were 7 downrange. 8 MR. : Right. And that's where 9 they are supposed to be? 10 : Like they're supposed to be. 11 MR. : Okay. And if they 12 weren't, she should have notified SHU. Hey, 13 you guys got to be keeping these down here? 14 : Yes. 15 MR. : All right. And is the 16 purpose of that, though, to ensure that people 17 are doing rounds and that's where it, when they 18 sign that? 19 : Well, that's where they're 20 supposed to be, for the sake of the officers, 21 that's, it's to prevent fudging the round 22 sheets. 23 MR. : Right. 24 : You know, if they're down on 25 the desk, and you can just write whatever you EFTA00114560 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 want, for lack of better terms. Look, I'm 2 (Indiscernible *00:59:40) I'll call a spade a 3 space. Right? If somebody is going to fudge 4 around, it's easier for them to do it that way. 5 MR. : Uh-huh. 6 : Then if it's downrange. If 7 it's downrange, you have to go downrange. 8 MR. : Right. 9 : So, you're going to look in 10 each cell and then when you get to the end of 11 that tier, that's when you scribble your time. 12 That's why it's easier for that round sheet and 13 that camera to jive. 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 : Cause they're downrange. 16 MR. : Okay. Sorry. 17 : Sorry. 18 MR. : No, no. And the point of the 19 lieutenant signing it is not that the 20 lieutenant did the rounds -- 21 : It's to make sure that the 22 officers are doing what they're supposed to be. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you recall any 24 special instructions coming down from the 25 Warden or the Captain, regarding Epstein? EFTA00114561 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Nothing as far as, like, 2 that he was high-profile. You know. 3 MR. : What was the, you mentioned 4 instructions from Psychology, right? 5 : Uh-huh. Which were 6 basically the same, like, you know, he needs a 7 bunkie. He is high-profile. 8 MR. : But there was no 9 instructions, like you are never, as a 10 lieutenant, there was no special instructions 11 (Indiscernible *01:00:36). 12 : If he was a lieutenant move, 13 our instructions were a lieutenant has to be 14 present when he moved. So, a lieutenant has to 15 escort him, that I recall. 16 MR. : That email you mentioned that 17 you got. Who was that from? The mass email? 18 : I believe it was from the 19 Captain. 20 MR. : We're going to go through 21 all that. 22 : Or Correctional Services. 23 I'm not, I'm not exactly sure who sent that 24 out. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114562 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 : It would be generated from 2 all the department heads. 3 MR. : Okay. That's it. That's all 4 I had. 5 MR. : Okay. But you're 6 familiar with the SHU, correct? 7 : Yes. Yes. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:01:15) 9 all right. Great. Looking at this camera 10 angle, this is a still shot. Can you tell me 11 what it is that we're looking at here? 12 : This is the camera that's up 13 in, on the upper tier, by the 46 door, which is 14 going into 10 South. This camera view right 15 here is of the multipurpose area. These stairs 16 right here, that you can barely make out, this 17 would be G tier. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 : H tier. J, I tier down 20 there. You can't see L and M. This little 21 shadow right here is the pipe, but that's about 22 all you can see of L tier. And then M tier is 23 down those steps, and that's the OIC's station. 24 MR. : So, from this camera 25 angle, this, if Epstein is in L tier, would you EFTA00114563 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 be able to see if people were going up and down 2 L tier, from this camera angle? 3 : You would be able to see a 4 quick movement, but not the full, cause you 5 can't see the steps. 6 MR. : Is there a way for them, 7 over this way, to like, go over here and go up 8 here without you seeing them come up, or is 9 this so close -- 10 : No, no, no. This is 11 totally, this is elevated. This area right 12 here, this is a staircase door. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 : This is an elevated 15 position. You can't, this camera would see 16 staff coming up. 17 MR. : Oh, but as far as this 18 angle, though, could you, could you, if anybody 19 was going up and down L tier -- 20 : And if anybody was coming 21 this way -- 22 MR. : -- could you tell that 23 from here? 24 : -- and going up, you would 25 be able to, like I said, you would be able to EFTA00114564 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 see a flash of movement, but you really 2 wouldn't be able to see, judging from the way 3 this picture is, you really wouldn't be able to 4 see much of the actual step climbing. 5 MR. : Okay. But could anybody 6 get up to L tier without you seeing from this 7 angle in the SHU? 8 : Well, you would see them go 9 this way. But whether or not they were walking 10 towards the kitchen or going up to L tier would 11 be hard to distinguish, just from looking at 12 this. If the camera were there -- 13 MR. : So, is this a blind spot? 14 Could someone come from this way and go up L 15 tier without you seeing? 16 : Yes. Yeah. Without a 17 doubt. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 : From, you could come from 20 straight outside and then go up. 21 MR. : All right. And what, 22 this staircase that is clearly visible, this is 23 the officer's station, right? 24 : Yes. 25 MR. : And right to the left of EFTA00114565 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 the officer's station, what is that staircase 2 going to? 3 : That's going to J tier. 4 MR. : Okay. Awesome. Can you, 5 on this SHU map, so this first page is the 6 first tier. 7 : Wait. Which, first tier? 8 MR. : So, this is the, we have 9 the SHU layout. It's not perfect, but this is 10 what was provided to us. 11 : Yeah. Cause I'm trying to, 12 all right, so -- 13 MR. : So, this is, like, for 14 instance, you know, you will see the first 15 letter is what the, so this is G tier. It 16 looks like this is M tier. And the second one, 17 over here, this is the second floor, this is my 18 understanding. Here's J, L. 19 : I can barely see it. 20 MR. : Yeah. Maybe that's G. I 21 don't know. 22 : May I? 23 MR. : Absolutely. This is, so, 24 what I'm going to ask you to do is, from 25 looking at this -- EFTA00114566 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 : J. Okay. There it is. J. 2 MR. : -- keeping in mind where 3 the officers' station is -- 4 : And this is L. Okay. 5 MR. : -- and where this is, can 6 you kind of point to me, can you put the 7 location of where this camera is on here? 8 : Oh, shit. 9 MR. : Looking down? 10 : Recreation. 11 MR. : So, if you're looking at 12 13 : It would be up here. 14 MR. : Right. So, like, the 15 angle, like, you can put a circle, and I'm 16 pointing towards, so I guess put a big circle 17 where the officers' station would be. 18 : All right. This is J tier. 19 That's right there. And there's the wall, 20 right there, so, right there, this is L tier, 21 going up and M would be down, yeah. That's 22 right. So, this is basically where the -- 23 MR. : So then you can put OC in 24 the middle. 25 : OIC. EFTA00114567 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 MR. : For OIC, perfect. And 2 then, so, if you're looking straight at this, 3 this is that, can you put a star next to 4 whatever, whatever staircase you're looking at 5 in this video? 6 : Okay. This is J tier, right 7 here. 8 MR. : J tier. All right. 9 : J. And this is M. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : I'm assuming that's the one 12 going down. 13 MR. : Okay. Great. And then 14 as far as, this is what you're looking at, 15 right here, where would you believe the camera 16 would be? 17 : Judging from the way this 18 is, it looks like the camera is panning from, 19 like, here. That way. 20 MR. : Oh, right. So, if this 21 is, this is G tier 22 : G. 23 MR. : -- right, so, would it 24 be, like, kind of over here? 25 : Here's the, this is the EFTA00114568 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 lieutenant's office up there. That's here, in 2 the corner. And I think the camera is above 3 the lieutenant's office. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 : So, maybe like right here, 6 maybe? I'm not 100% certain. But it should 7 be, it's somewhere over here, the camera and 8 the camera pans that way. 9 MR. : Can you just put a star 10 there and in that open spot next to it, just 11 write camera? All right. Perfect. Do you 12 mind just initialing and dating that? And then 13 we're also -- 14 : Eight, today is the 4th, 15 cause it's my daughter's birthday. 16 MR. : Oh, is it? Happy 17 Birthday. 18 : Twenty-one. 19 MR. : How old? 20 : Twenty-one. 21 MR. : Oh, wow. Can you initial 22 and date that, that we're looking -- 23 : Sure. Date it, too? 24 MR. : Yes, please. All right. 25 So, all right. Thank you. That confirms what EFTA00114569 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 this is, thank you. And this is someone else's 2 drawing. I just want to see, this kind of 3 (Indiscernible *01:06:32) this is actually what 4 we said here. Yeah, so it looks like, and this 5 is everything. Cool. Now, was there, you 6 said, you mentioned a bulletin board that had 7 the hot list? Where would that be? 8 : Well, I can't, right here, 9 it's hard to tell from that, but usually, the 10 hot list should be somewhere right up there on 11 the hook. 12 MR. : Okay, so this is the 13 bulletin board here? 14 : Yeah. And there's also, 15 now, I don't, not then, but there was, there's, 16 there was stuff up here, but not, I don't 17 believe it was a bulletin board. It's a 18 bulletin board now, if you go up there. 19 MR. : All right. 20 : But there was, the hot list 21 used to be right there. It should have been 22 right there, by where the phone was. 23 MR. : All right. So, I'm going 24 to write above it, B board. So this is where 25 the bulletin board was? EFTA00114570 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Yeah. 2 MR. : And you believe the hot 3 list would have been on that, is what you're 4 saying? 5 : Yes. 6 MR. : And this was, you said J 7 tier? 8 : That was, those are the 9 steps going up to J tier. 10 MR. : So I'm going to write J 11 right here with an arrow going up. 12 : Uh-huh. And I tier would be 13 the one going down. 14 MR. : And is that going down 15 here? 16 : Yeah. 17 MR. : Or over that way? 18 : No. Down that way. There, 19 to the left. 20 MR. : Okay. But J was going 21 up? 22 : Yes. 23 MR. : All right. And then I'm 24 going to write up here, L tier would have been 25 right here, going up? EFTA00114571 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 : Yes. 2 MR. : All right. So that's all 3 accurate? 4 Yep. 5 MR. : Perfect. Okay. So, you 6 said that this one also checked out, this looks 7 exactly the same as where you were. Oh, do you 8 know where Epstein was located? 9 : He was on L tier. 10 MR. : And do you know where, 11 like, in looking at this, where his -- 12 : It should be right there. 13 MR. : That one? Can you put a, 14 I don't know, a box in there, I guess, and put, 15 yeah, JE or something there? 16 : JE. 17 MR. : Perfect. Thanks. 18 : His cell could look right 19 down onto the OIC desk. If he looked outside 20 his window -- 21 MR. : So he could see? 22 : -- he could look right down 23 at the officers. 24 MR. : Okay. And you already 25 initialed and dated this. Great. So, if EFTA00114572 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 1 you're looking at this photo, is this a photo 2 of L tier, going up? 3 : Yep. 4 MR. : And would he be over 5 here? 6 : He would be the first cell, 7 right, in this corner most, right here, is the 8 shower. But right next to the shower is the 9 first cell. 10 MR. : So if you're walking up 11 the tier, you open the door, he's right to the 12 right? 13 : He's going to be the first 14 cell to the right. 15 MR. : The first cell to the 16 right. Okay. And I know you can't really make 17 out this. Do you have any reason to believe 18 that wouldn't be his cell? 19 : Well, I can't even make out 20 the number. 21 MR. : Right. And then, you 22 know, this is the tier. This is L tier, going 23 down. Is this a camera, right here? 24 : Yes. 25 MR. : Is this camera supposed EFTA00114573 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 to be recording everything going on here? 2 : That's supposed to be 3 recording everything, facing this way. So, 4 like, it would see you walk, it would see, if 5 this is me, first person, coming up this way, 6 it would film everything from the grill back to 7 where it is. 8 MR. : And is this where the 9 round sheet is supposed to be located? 10 : Yes. 11 MR. : Is there, do you even see 12 anything, where it could be? 13 : It might be that speck 14 right, no, that's too high. It might be, there 15 might be a little hole, I can't tell. 16 MR. : But that's where it's 17 supposed to be located? 18 : Yeah. At the end of the 19 MR. : Right underneath the 20 camera? 21 : No. I'm sorry. They had 22 gotten moved. I believe that right now, 23 they're down there, but they might, I think 24 they were on the wall here, at the beginning of 25 the tier or on the other side. I'm not 100% EFTA00114574 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 certain. 2 MR. : Okay. So, back then, 3 they wouldn't have been at the end of the hall? 4 They were probably at the beginning of the 5 tier? 6 : I know at one point in time, 7 they were, the clipboard was being rested on 8 that coax pipe. 9 MR. : Would this be underneath 10 L tier, or would that be where it would be? 11 : No. It's always on the 12 inside of the range. 13 MR. : Always on the inside? 14 Okay. 15 : Yeah. 16 MR. : So it would have been 17 after you opened the range door, but not at the 18 end of the hall at that time? 19 : I know I, like I said, at 20 one point, they had it on the wall to the side, 21 but at one point in time, they were putting the 22 clipboard, they were just resting it on that 23 pipe. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 : As long as it was downrange, EFTA00114575 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 it needed to be downrange. 2 MR. : So, even at that time, it 3 was supposed to be downrange? 4 : They always have to be 5 downrange. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : Per BOP policy? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. And this is just, 11 so, we had to review a lot of emails and I see, 12 this one, I think, was directed to you. It 13 says, "BOP official legal hold notice for 14 inmate's death." What was your, was your 15 understanding of that not to destroy any 16 documents? 17 : Yes. 18 MR. : All right. Did you 19 destroy any documents? 20 : No. Not at all. 21 MR. : So you still have al] 22 your emails from then and everything? 23 : I don't have anything. 24 Like, I know the AUSA had my memo. I don't 25 even have a copy of my memo. EFTA00114576 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1. 1 MR. : Okay. 2 : And I don't, I didn't tear 3 up anything. 4 MR. : Perfect. 5 : And I've been getting these 6 periodically from you guys. 7 MR. : Oh, you still do? Okay. 8 : Yeah. 9 MR. : Do you still have, like, 10 all the emails from back then and everything? 11 : No. I mean, anything that I 12 had, I either just closed out of, but the thing 13 is, I didn't, I don't even remember having any 14 direct emails. All the official emails, like, 15 I, like, sent them to my trash bin, like even 16 these, I mean, this was just telling me not to 17 destroy anything, and I didn't destroy 18 anything. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 : So, I didn't save these. 21 MR. : Okay. But as far as, so, 22 did you understand, like, as far as if you 23 received an email pertaining to Epstein, were 24 you supposed to save that, or could have you 25 deleted that? EFTA00114577 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 : What do you mean? In, like, 2 as far as from staff? 3 MR. : Yeah, like, for instance, 4 this is another one that, I think this is the 5 email that you would have received, regarding 6 Epstein being required to have a cellmate from 7 July 30, 2019? 8 : Oh, yeah, yeah. No, these, 9 I would get them and delete them. 10 MR. : All right. So you would 11 delete those? 12 : Yeah. And as long as I 13 knew, you know, that was it. 14 MR. : So, you didn't 15 understand, like, this to mean, like, not to 16 delete anything pertaining to Epstein? 17 : No, but the thing is, at 18 least I never got anything like this, after it 19 happened. 20 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 21 talking about, like, prior to, I think that 22 this is asking you to save anything that was 23 related to Epstein, correct? 24 : Yeah, no. I get what that, 25 you know, that, I didn't think that that was EFTA00114578 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 what it meant. Like these. These were just 2 routine things. I thought it meant -- 3 MR. : Okay. Well, that came 4 from yours. So, you didn't, I was able to get 5 it, at least. 6 : Okay. 7 MR. : You may have deleted it, 8 but my point being is, like -- 9 : Uh-huh. Well, I 10 misunderstood, maybe. I'm thinking destroying 11 means shredding. 12 MR. : But if you received an 13 email pertaining to Epstein, you thought you 14 could delete it? 15 : Yeah. I guess so. 16 MR. : Right. Fair enough. 17 : There's, like, stuff like 18 this, if it's sitting in my trash bin. I don't 19 always empty my trash. I mean, anybody in the 20 Bureau could pull those emails anyway. 21 MR. : Okay. Let me see how -- 22 : Yeah, I thought it meant, 23 like, physically, like, destroying stuff. 24 Like, I wish I could even have a copy of my 25 memo, but AUSA has it. EFTA00114579 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : Cause, like, for 2 instance, this says, "Please preserve all 3 electronic files; example, emails or 4 documents." 5 : Right. I missed, I totally 6 misunderstood. 7 MR. : All right. So, you 8 misunderstood that? 9 : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : I wouldn't do it 12 maliciously. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 14 and that's what I wanted to know -- 15 : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : -- cause a lot of people 17 got this, so you're the first person I'm even 18 asking about this. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So I was just curious, 21 it's like, what is your understanding. So, did 22 you not know -- 23 : Yeah. I thought it meant, 24 actually, like, physically, like, destroying 25 things, like, you know, in the shredder. EFTA00114580 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Right. All right. So, 2 yeah. So you didn't actually read it, I'm 3 assuming, like, where it says emails? That's 4 the first thing it says. 5 : I probably mis, no, like, I 6 remember the first one I received, I called the 7 staff attorney. I was, like, what does this 8 mean? And he was like, just that you're still, 9 it's still active. 10 MR. : Okay. Would you mind, 11 just, anything we talk to you, it's just 12 initialing and dating. 13 : Yeah. No problem. 14 MR. : It's just to say what it 15 is what we looked at and talked about. 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : And you already 18 mentioned, you remember receiving this email 19 from Psychology -- 20 : Yeah. 21 MR. : from 22 23 : Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00114581 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : Saying that he was 2 required to have a cellmate? 3 : Have a cellmate. 4 MR. : So you do remember that? 5 Okay, great. 6 : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And you knew he was 8 required to have a cellmate? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : Do you mind just 11 initialing and dating that? 12 : Sure. 13 MR. : Was that the same email that 14 you mentioned before? Cause you mentioned that 15 there was an email from Captain 16 : I believe there was one, as 17 far as when he, anytime he would be put as a 18 lieutenant hold. This is the one I was talking 19 about, like, Psychology would send out that, 20 about having the cellmate. 21 MR. : Oh. 22 MR. : Thank you, sir. Now, as 23 far as this, you said no one told you. So, 24 this is a memo from, at the time, SOS 25 : Uh-huh. EFTA00114582 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : G-R-I-J-A-L-V-A. It 2 says, "Past information from Special Housing 3 Unit." It says, "On Friday, August 9, 2019, at 4 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 5 passed on to oncoming staff member, Officer 6 and present shift staff, SOS and 7 Officer , that inmate Reyes was going WAB 8 and possibly may not return. Also that inmate 9 Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival 10 from his attorney visit." Did you know 11 anything about that? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Is this the first you're 14 seeing of this memo? 15 : That's the first I'm seeing 16 of it. 17 MR. : All right. So, a couple 18 things. First, if passed on to these 19 people and those are the people that worked on 20 your shift? 21 : Yeah. Yes. Right here. 22 No, wait. What does it say? No, 23 was day shift. was day shift. 24 is the only one. 25 MR. : Okay. So, oncoming staff EFTA00114583 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 members , and Officer , so 2 let's see. When would have been working 3 on this, like, what -- 4 : 2 to 10. 5 MR. : So, would have been 6 2 to 10. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : And the present ones were 9 When would he have been working? 10 : 8 to 4. 11 MR. : And 12 : 8 to 4. 13 MR. : All right. So, I think 14 would have only been working as 15 : Till 2:00. 16 MR. : 2:00. So, if he told, 17 before he left, 2:00, and 18 19 -: 20 MR. : Right. Should any of 21 those people have notified either you or 22 , that he was, that Reyes was gone and -- 23 : Yes. 24 MR. : Yes? Okay. And nobody 25 did? EFTA00114584 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 : I wasn't told. Like I said, 2 I found out the day after it happened. Well, 3 the day that it happened, when I came in. 4 MR. : Now, on the second note 5 of this, if knew that Reyes was WAB, 6 should have he ensured that he got a cellmate 7 prior to his departure, at 1:50 p.m.? So, if 8 Reyes left at 8:38 a.m., WAB, into R&D, he's 9 keyed out of the system. Should a new cellmate 10 have been assigned to Epstein, even prior to 11 leaving? 12 : It would have been prudent 13 to do it as soon as possible. 14 MR. : Okay. So, should 15 have then notified any, you know, 16 , and it looks like , during his 17 shift, that, hey, we need to get Epstein a new 18 cellmate? 19 : Anybody that was on that, 20 that is mentioned there, should have been, if 21 the knowledge got passed, it was never passed 22 to the lieutenants. 23 MR. : Okay. But, okay. And 24 then if the lieutenants knew, so, for instance, 25 and , if told them, hey, EFTA00114585 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 Reyes is gone, should have he notified them 2 that he was WAB gone? Or, so, if he believed 3 he was at court, WAB -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- and let's say, for 6 instance, is the Ops, so he's kind of 7 like the boss, right? 8 : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : If knew, yep, 10 know Reyes is gone. I know he is Epstein's 11 cellmate. Is there any reason, and especially 12 if he went WAB, is there any reason, any 13 argument for to be made that, well, 14 didn't know if he was coming back or not? 15 : If he wasn't notified that 16 he was WAB, it would, you wouldn't know. 17 MR. : Okay. So, if he wasn't, 18 if he didn't know he was WAS, it is an argument 19 to be made to say, well, he could have come 20 back, is that correct? 21 : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. So, he would have 23 had to have known that he was WAB? 24 : If he didn't, he would have 25 had to have known he was WAB, if he knew he EFTA00114586 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 wasn't coming home, like, coming home, coming 2 back to the jail. 3 MR. : Okay. All right. If he 4 knew he was WAB, he should have acted and 5 gotten him a new cellmate. If he didn't know 6 he was WAB, then it was okay for him not to 7 issue him a new cellmate? 8 : Yeah. If he didn't know he 9 wasn't coming back or if he was even gone, he 10 wouldn't know. That's why I said, if the white 11 shirts didn't get notified, we don't know 12 what's happening. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. But you had, 14 so, let me ask you separately. If says, 15 yep, I knew Reyes was, I knew Reyes was gone. 16 I knew Reyes was Epstein's cellmate. And he 17 didn't know he was WAB. Was it okay for him 18 not to have acted? 19 : No. If he was told, it was 20 not okay. 21 MR. : But if he wasn't told 22 that he was WAB, he was just told he went to 23 court. 24 : I mean, at that point in 25 time, I would have been a little worried that EFTA00114587 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 he was alone, but you're talking day watch, 2 there's constant movement. 3 MR. : Well, if Epstein's down 4 in attorney visits until 8 p.m. -- 5 : Yeah. That's probably what 6 happened. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 : He's in attorney conference, 9 thinking by the time he goes back upstairs, 10 this guy is coming back from court. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 : I'm assuming. 13 MR. : And what time did 14 work until, until that day? 15 : I relieved him at just about 16 probably 2:00. 17 MR. : Okay. So, if he is 18 saying, I knew Reyes was gone, but I didn't 19 know he wasn't coming back, would that 20 translate to mean he didn't know he was WAB? 21 : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. So, if he didn't 23 know he was WAB, was it okay for not to 24 tell you that Reyes was gone? 25 : If he didn't think that EFTA00114588 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 there was an issue, no. 2 MR. : Should have he told you 3 that there was gone, being that it was Epstein, 4 he was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes 5 was at court? 6 : If he knew, then he should 7 have notified me. 8 MR. : So, regardless if he was 9 WAB or not, he should have notified you that 10 Reyes was at least at court? 11 : At that point in time, so, 12 see, this is where it's hard to tell. Look, 13 when you're Operations Lieutenant, you're 14 moving, you're working the entire institution. 15 MR. : Yep. 16 : You're filling overtime. As 17 you can see, filling that roster was a 18 nightmare. 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 : All right? You're doing 21 this, you're doing that. You're doing a 22 million things. Right? You may not even know 23 that this guy even went to court. 24 MR. : But if he says he knew? 25 : If he says he knew -- EFTA00114589 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : He says he knew he went 2 to court. He just didn't know that he wasn't 3 coming back. 4 : That's different. If he 5 knew, if he said he knew, then something should 6 have happened. 7 MR. : So, if he knew he went to 8 court, even if he says, I didn't know if he 9 wasn't coming back or not, he should have at 10 least notified you, though, hey, heads-up, 11 Reyes is at court? 12 : Uh-huh. Yeah. Or it was 13 just, or at least tell the OIC, like, listen, 14 if Epstein comes back up and this guy is not 15 back from court yet, make sure Epstein has a 16 bunkie. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 : You know, something should 19 have been put in place. 20 MR. : So, should have at 21 least, should have notified either, should have 22 notified, it sounds like, both you, as well as, 23 in this case, who was the OIC at the time? 24 : Day watch OIC? 25 MR. : So, EFTA00114590 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : SHU-1 is OIC. 2 MR. : Okay. So, but even 3 though , so was the OIC, 4 though, I think, for, like, the whole, is it 5 always SHU-1? Cause I thought was 6 just the OIC, like, in the SHU, I thought it 7 worked that, like, was -- 8 : Whoever is assigned as SHU-1 9 is the OIC. That's the OIC position. 10 MR. : All right. Cause my 11 understanding was that at this period of time, 12 was known as the OIC of the SHU. 13 : If he, unless he is 14 assigned, if he is assigned to SHU-1 -- 15 MR. : Just SHU-1? 16 : -- for the quarter, then 17 you're the OIC. 18 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 19 though, . So, should have notified 20 21 : If he knew. 22 MR. : If he knew that, if he 23 knew that he was at court, but again, wasn't 24 sure he wasn't coming back, what should have he 25 told EFTA00114591 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 : That make sure that if 2 Epstein, when Epstein comes back from legal 3 visit, he gets a bunkie. 4 MR. : Okay. And never 5 informed you? 6 : No. 7 MR. : Okay. And should have he 8 informed you? 9 : If he knew -- 10 MR. : If he knew that he was in 11 court? 12 : -- that he wasn't going to 13 get a bunkie, I should have been told. 14 MR. : Great. But what I'm 15 asking, sorry, I think we're confusing here -- 16 : If he knew that he was 17 MR. : -- even if he didn't know 18 that he was, so, if his argument is -- 19 : Just the fact that he was 20 out. 21 MR. : Right. 22 : If he knew, yes, I should 23 have been told. 24 MR. : So, if he knew he was at 25 court, he should have let you know? EFTA00114592 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 : If he knew that, if he knew 2 that he was going to not have a bunkie, I 3 should have been, I should have known, being 4 that I was coming on. 5 MR. : So, this is where I'm 6 trying, just try to focus on my words. 7 : I'm sorry. 8 MR. : Right now, I'm asking, if 9 Reyes was at court, but didn't know that 10 he wasn't coming back. He just knew that Reyes 11 was at court, should have he told you? 12 : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. So, regardless if 14 he was coming back or not, he should have 15 notified you? 16 : Well, see, that's the thing. 17 We don't always, we don't know who went to 18 court until we do that roster of the movement. 19 MR. : But if we talk to 20 and he says, yep, i know Reyes was at court. 21 : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : I just didn't know if he 23 was coming back or not. 24 : Yeah. 25 MR. : Should have he relayed EFTA00114593 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 that information to you? 2 : Yes. Especially because of 3 the profile found. 4 MR. : Okay. So, he should have 5 relayed that information? 6 : Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. I just wanted to 8 get to that. Do you mind just initialing and 9 date that? 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And he did not, correct? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Thank you, sir. Do you 14 remember, while we're at it, do you remember in 15 this case being that shift says it 16 ends at 2. Well, , she's on an overtime 17 shift. So, she doesn't actually start until 4. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : Is it okay, do you know 20 if would have had to have stayed from 2 21 to 4 until he was -- 22 : Not necessarily. As long as 23 there's a lieutenant on the desk. 24 MR. : Okay. So, the fact that 25 if you're, you know, either you or is EFTA00114594 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/_ 1 there, could have ended at 2? 2 : Yes. 3 MR. : And there could be a gap 4 from 2 to 4 with -- 5 : Yeah. That was actually 6 common. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 : You know. Especially when 9 we didn't have a regular lieutenant scheduled 10 for the 2 to 10 activities. 11 MR. : Okay. So, would you 12 always get, as a lieutenant, especially as Ops 13 and Activities, would you get the prisoner 14 production lists? 15 : Yes. From R&D. 16 MR. : And then was that 17 something that you were supposed to review? 18 : It's basically, if we needed 19 it. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : Yeah. 22 MR. : So, for instance, this 23 one. It shows that it was dated Thursday, 24 August 8, 2019, prisoner production for August 25 9, 2019. EFTA00114595 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : Uh-huh. : It's from, it says -- : Elzahr. MR. Elzahr, E-L-Z -- : Yeah, he used to work here. Now he works for the U.S. MarshallaMarshals. MR. : Okay. E-L-Z-A-H-R. : Yeah. MR. : And then this is the attachment to it. : Uh-huh. MR. : So, it says the second list down was Efrain Reyes. Are you able to 122 tell going on with Efrain Reyes be the from this at all what it was that was that day? : Sorry. That would probably time that he had to go down to court. MR. MR. mean anything? : Okay. : Down to R&D. : Does this transfer within : I'm not familiar. It doesn't say that on our stuff. MR. : But this would have been what you got, right? This is the email that EFTA00114596 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 was sent to the lieutenants? 2 : Yeah. 3 MR. : I pulled this from your 4 emails. 5 : No, I got it. 6 MR. : So, I'm just, I'm 7 curious, is this something that, like -- 8 : Transfer within doesn't, it 9 don't jump out at me, cause I'm used to seeing, 10 like, pre-remove, pre-hold. 11 MR. : Okay. So, there's the 12 PP38 that you were talking about. 13 : Okay. 14 MR. : It shows from 8/9/2019. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : So that's the daily log. 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. : On the third page, it 19 says, "Reyes, pre-remove, 8:38." 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : If he was just going -- 22 : That's the time that he was 23 keyed out of the institution. 24 MR. : So, if he was just going 25 to court, would have he been listed to pre- EFTA00114597 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 remove? 2 : No. It would, I believe it 3 would say SDNY or EDNY, or whatever, whatever 4 court he was going to. 5 MR. : So, if it was listed as 6 pre-remove -- 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- does that assume that 9 he's not coming back? 10 : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So, at 8:38 -- 12 : Now, that has changed 13 before. Like, they've been pre-removed and 14 then come back 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : -- because something got 17 cancelled. 18 MR. : All right. So, is this 19 something that you got, like, as the Ops and 20 the Activities Lieutenant, are you supposed to 21 be kind of aware of this stuff? 22 : Well, we would get sent 23 this, mainly, I hate to say this, there would 24 be sometimes issues with the officers in the 25 morning, getting the inmates out to court. EFTA00114598 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. actual : Okay. : And they wouldn't have the court list, so if they had to call us and be, like, hey, Lou, you know, R&D is calling for this guy and I would just bring this up, and be like, yeah, he's on the list. But we wouldn't study this. We would just, we were included in the Marshall.;Marshals loop, because we would be the supervisors. MR. : Now, if he was actually being transferred to another institution -- : Uh-huh. MR. : -- would he be also listed on the court list? : No, he would be on the moves for the day. MR. : All right. So, here is an email from also the U.S. Meeshe4sMarshals Service, from a Choo, C-H-O-O -- MR. Prisoners MR. : Okay. : -- subject, "Transfer of from NYM to GEO." : GEO. GEO. : What's GEO? : It's the private jail. EFTA00114599 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : In New York? : Yes. I believe it's in New York. I'm not sure. MR. : Okay. And this one is also dated Thursday, August 8, 2019. It says, "The following prisoners are to be transferred." Here it says, "Reyes, Efrain." And his reg number. "Please schedule a transfer for Friday, 8/9/2019." Do you know why he would be listed on this email, on August 8th , 8th? as well as a prisoner production on August Is there any -- : No. No. That's whatever the Marshall&Marshals were doing. MR. : Have you ever seen something like that before? : What, moving an inmate? MR. : Well, so, on this, it says he's going to court, right? : Uh-huh. MR. : But on this one, it says he's being transferred. : Quite honestly, it's, I know I've seen, like I said, like on the 38, I'm just going, I'm sorry, I'm going BOP-wise. EFTA00114600 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And then the 38 -- 2 : On the 38, see, like, GCT 3 release, full-time release, FT release, or like 4 you see here, the pre-remove status and stuff 5 like that. 6 MR. : Yeah, so that's kind of 7 where we're trying to, we're trying to put 8 these pieces together. Why would he be on an 9 email here, saying that prisoner schedule 10 report, listing him as court. Here, saying 11 he's being transferred, excuse me, to the GEO. 12 : GEO. 13 MR. : And then on the 38, 14 showing he's pre-removed. 15 : Yeah. I guess, I'm 16 assuming, I could be wrong, this is just the 17 way our computer, the way our system puts it 18 in. Like, this right here, the FT release, 19 that means this guy maxed out. He's not going 20 to, like, a halfway house or anything like 21 that. Where is it? Pre-remove means he's 22 being transferred. 23 MR. : Pre-remove means he's 24 being transferred? 25 : Transferred. EFTA00114601 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : And do you know if this 2 thing next to him would be that transfer within 3 thing? Would that be -- 4 : I don't know. Honestly, I 5 have, I can't answer that. 6 MR. : Okay. Giovanne Bousy. 7 (Phonetic Sp. *01:29:42). Where's that guy? 8 Yeah, so, Bousy officer says transfer -- 9 : Pre-remove. 10 MR. : -- and he's pre-remove. 11 But these other guys don't seem to say transfer 12 within. So, is this something like, if this is 13 being sent to the lieutenant, should you be 14 able to look at this and say, like, transfer 15 within, that means he's out of here? 16 : Honestly, I can't answer 17 that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 : I have never looked, I have 20 honestly never looked at that part. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : I have never looked at it. 23 MR. : So, when you receive 24 this, do you, as the Ops Lieutenant, Activities 25 Lieutenant, look at these things, these EFTA00114602 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 prisoner production lists? 2 : I would glance at it, and I 3 would see what it is, but I would normally, I'm 4 not going to lie. I would put it off to the 5 side, because I would only really use that if 6 there was a problem with the officers getting 7 the inmates to court. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : And then, you know, R&D 10 calling the lieutenants over, saying, hey, I'm 11 trying to get this dude down from 7 North, and 12 they're not sending him, and then I would look. 13 MR. : All right. 14 : I didn't look at it every 15 day. 16 MR. : So, the fact that these 17 are being sent to the MCC -- 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : -- saying he's transfer 20 within here, and he's here being, you know, 21 this one is, the prison production list, and 22 this one is being the transfer order for these 23 two people. 24 : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : And then obviously at EFTA00114603 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8:38, he is listed as pre-remove. So, we're being notified that Reyes is leaving the institution. With these notifications from the U.S. MarohallDMarshals Service, who should have acted? Who should have known, Reyes isn't coming back? : I mean, whoever saw it first. MR. : Who, is there somebody, like, that's responsible for, like, saying, like, all right? : Everybody in this address box gets it from the Me*ehealeMarshals. It goes out at the same time. MR. : Sure. MR. : And that's what I mean, there's a lot of people there. : Yeah. And that's the thing. MR. : There's a lot of people here, and there's less people on this one. : Uh-huh. MR. : This one, it looks like it's, does this look, can you indicate from the transfer email, can you tell at that time who those people would have been? EFTA00114604 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 R&D staff. 131 : Okay. Everybody here is the 3 MR. : Okay. So, R&D gets the 4 actual transfer notice. 5 : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : On this prisoner 7 production list, it looks like, you know, 8 Efrain Reyes saying that he's leaving and it 9 says a transfer within. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : As does the other person 12 on this email. 13 : Yeah. 14 MR. : This Giovanne -- 15 : Bousy. 16 MR. : Bousy also says 17 transfer within. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : None of the other guys 20 seem to say transfer within. They all say, 21 like, status hearing, sentencing, change of 22 plea. All that kind of stuff. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : So, being that we got 25 this going to R&D, then we got this going to, EFTA00114605 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 also, custody, saying that, you know, he is 2 being transferred within, is it the captain 3 that should have known it? Is it, who is the 4 one that should have said, like, yes, we know 5 he's leaving this institution. This is 6 Epstein's celimate. Who should have been able 7 to take action on this? 8 : I can't, I can't, I don't 9 know. 10 MR. : You don't know? 11 : I don't know. I don't know 12 who would have been the main person responsible 13 for it. I mean, I guess everybody, I guess 14 it's for everybody's eyes, but it wasn't 15 something that routinely got utilized. 16 MR. : Is this something that 17 would have been, if this is a transfer within, 18 this transfer notice, is this something that 19 the SHU staff would have been notified of? 20 Saying -- 21 : No. SHU, I don't believe 22 SHU -- 23 MR. : Cause they're not on 24 this. 25 : -- the COs were tagged on EFTA00114606 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it. MR. far as, comes : But I'm saying, like, as here's the, you know, whatever -- : Well, the inmates, whatever on that, whatever R&D gets from the MarahalloMarshals Service, they put out their own court list to the staff. MR. : Huh. : The officers get regular court lists generated. So those names of those inmates would get put on the court, the call out list. MR. : Okay. : And for the court list, and that court list gets handed out in the morning. MR. : Okay. So, as far as this, it looks like we know he's being transferred, and now that we're seeing that these two guys that were being transferred are both listed on this prisoner schedule report as transfer within -- : Uh-huh. MR. : -- what should R&D have done? Should have they, are the people that are listed on that court list, are they also EFTA00114607 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 the people that are being transferred to other 2 institutions? 3 : No. Everybody on the court 4 list, it would say exactly what they are. If 5 they're on the court list, it would say, you 6 know, court. It would say, or, it would say, 7 you know, WAB. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : So, and then they send that 10 out to the housing units, including SHU. 11 MR. : So, again, if, you know, 12 going back to that memo, knows, it 13 says, would it say WAB or court? Or both? 14 : I believe it just says, if 15 it's WAB, it would say, it would say, I think 16 it says FT remove, or I'm not 100% sure. 17 haven't seen one in so long. 18 MR. : Okay. All right. So 19 you're not exactly sure what it said, but -- 20 : No. 21 MR. : -- it's all the same 22 document of the people they need to bring down 23 that morning? 24 : Yeah, but it's, all of this 25 is not on that. EFTA00114608 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 MR. : Right. 2 : It would just say the 3 inmate's name and that he's got to be in, it 4 says a.m. court and p.m. court, from the last 5 time I saw the actual court list. A.M. court, 6 meaning he's got to be down there at 6:30 in 7 the morning, once R&D opens. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : P.M. court would be 10 afternoon. 11 MR. : All right. 12 : And SHU gets that legal, 13 that court list, just like every other housing 14 unit. 15 MR. : But again, if 16 for instance, knows that he's the one who walks 17 him down to R&D, he walks Reyes down. He knows 18 he's WAB. Again, you're saying, you know he's 19 WAS. He ain't coming back unless something 20 gets cancelled. 21 : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : Like a transport gets 23 cancelled. 24 : Basically. 25 MR. : All right. So, it sounds EFTA00114609 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 like is the one who actually should 2 have, at the very least, notified his 3 superiors, hey, we need to get him a new 4 cellmate. Is it okay that he has wrote this 5 memo, saying, I passed it on. You know, I knew 6 at 8:38 he was WAB, but I passed it on to the 2 7 p.m. people, make sure he gets a cellmate? 8 : I don't, like, can you, I'm 9 sorry. 10 MR. : So, I'm just trying to 11 figure out who messed up here. Cause 12 obviously, Epstein's required to have a 13 cellmate. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : We saw from that email. 16 We know Reyes is being transferred. We know 17 he's gone. 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : So, we know the day 20 before it happens, there's emails that go out. 21 We know at 8:38, R&D listed him as pre-remove. 22 He's gone from this institution. However, 23 Epstein never gets a new cellmate. 24 : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : Somebody doesn't take EFTA00114610 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 action. So, what I'm trying to figure out is, 2 who should have taken action? 3 : I mean, I don't, I can't 4 make that decision. I don't know. 5 MR. : As the Ops Lieutenant at 6 the time, you can't figure that -- 7 : I mean, as an Ops 8 Lieutenant, I should have been told by 9 somebody. 10 MR. : Right. 11 : I should have known about 12 it. 13 MR. : Uh-huh. All right. And 14 so, when is passing, would 15 have known, though, if he were WAB? 16 : I should have been notified, 17 truth be told, the way, I was brought up in 18 this agency, I should have been notified by the 19 OIC. 20 MR. : Right. So, but you 21 weren't on the schedule? Like, in the daytime? 22 : In the daytime, no. 23 MR. : So that's where, I'm not 24 even focusing on you. 25 : No, I get it. I get it. EFTA00114611 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : I'm focusing on the 2 daytime thing. 3 : I get it. 4 MR. : What should have 5 happened? knows, WAB? 6 : The OIC should have notified 7 day watch Operations. 8 MR. : Okay. So, should 9 have known, he should have been, he should have 10 known, yes, he is WAB and he needs a new 11 cellmate. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Then what should have he 14 done? 15 : Made sure that he got a 16 cellmate. 17 MR. : Should have he notified 18 the captain? Or should have he just gotten him 19 the cellmate? 20 : He should have got on the, 21 told the SHU OIC, hey, get, he needs a bunkie, 22 ASAP. 23 MR. : Okay. So, it basically 24 falls onto the Ops Lieutenant to have, he 25 needed to have taken that action? EFTA00114612 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 : To make sure that, ensure 2 the OIC. 3 MR. : All right. And do you 4 remember, I know you said you didn't know he 5 transferred, but should his, you know, should 6 you have known by these documentations, from 7 this prisoner report? 8 : If I had read that, well, 9 this, I don't, I have never seen this before. 10 MR. : Right. This one. 11 : But that? 12 MR. : From looking at it? 13 : I would just, from looking 14 at it -- 15 MR. : Would you even know? 16 I don't remember, recall 17 the transfer within. I would always only look 18 at the names. And know that they have to be 19 generated for a court list. 20 MR. : Okay. So you just know 21 these people are going to court? You don't 22 even know that the transfer was (Indiscernible 23 *01:37:52) the transfer? 24 : I don't always know, off the 25 top of my head, like, this guy is going here, EFTA00114613 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 this guy is going there. I just know they have 2 to be presented so there's no problems, like, I 3 said, I would only really refer to that if R&D 4 contacted me and said, hey, LT, this guy, I'm 5 waiting an hour so far for this guy. Can you 6 get on the office? And I'd look, okay, yeah. 7 Hey, Jones, inmate Schmukatelli (Phonetic Sp. 8 *01:38:11) from 7 North, you know, you got to 9 get him to court. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : He's on the court list. 12 MR. : All right. So, and as 13 the court list, does the Op, like, would 14 have had that court list, saying, if it said 15 WAB, would have he had that, , the Ops 16 Lieutenant, have the court list? 17 : Yes and no. Sometimes, the 18 internal would drop a copy of the court list 19 off to the lieutenant's office. Mainly, the 20 main people that need it was internal, and the 21 housing units. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : And SHU. 24 MR. : All right. So, the Ops 25 Lieutenant isn't actually provided a copy of EFTA00114614 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the court list? : It's not required. MR. : All right. Okay. Do you mind just initialing and dating these? (Indiscernible *01:38:54). MR. : While you do that, the transfer email, the one that you signed, who was that from? : It's from Elzahr. MR. : And you mentioned before, Elzahr used to work here? : Yeah. He used to be BOP. MR. : Just to clarify. Was he working here during this Epstein time (Indiscernible *01:39:07). : No, he was already gone. MR. : Okay. MR. : He's from the Ma*ehal4eMarshals Service. The Meehe44eMarshals Service. MR. : But before, he said he was working here, and now he's, I just want to clarify for the record. : No, he was -- MR. : Gone at that point? EFTA00114615 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 : -- gone long before that 2 happened. 3 MR. : Thank you. Thank you. 4 : This too? 5 MR. : Yes, please. The other 6 way, you can keep them in order. Thank you. 7 : These too? 8 MR. : We're going to keep them, 9 just so if we have to refer to them. 10 : Okay. 11 MR. : That's easier. All 12 right. So, what time is the daily activities 13 report and the lieutenant's log usually sent 14 out in the mornings for the day before? 15 : It's done on the morning 16 shift. 17 MR. : So is it always supposed 18 to be done before 6 a.m.? 19 : Yeah. As the morning watch 20 lieutenant, I have to make sure that before my 21 shift is done, I send out the whole thing, and 22 that's the roster, cause if you look at the 23 back, the last person to sign it is the evening 24 watch lieutenant. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114616 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 : I now, as the morning watch 2 lieutenant, you know, the 10 to 6 or 12 to 8, 3 whichever it is, this, I have to print out the 4 daily log, the three daily logs from the 5 midnight to 8, prior, the day shift, and the 6 evening watch and there's a thing that, and it 7 gets emailed to the exec staff, the captain, 8 and I believe it used to get emailed to the 9 executive assistant, if I'm not mistaken. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : There was a certain amount 12 of people on the thing. 13 MR. : But is it supposed to be 14 done, basically, the morning, the morning watch 15 shift ends at 6 a.m., correct? 16 : Yes. 17 MR. : So it's supposed to be, 18 like, sent out before 6 a.m.? 19 : Yes. 20 MR. : All right. So, I have 21 these emails from Tuesday, August 6, 2019. 22 This one was sent at 5:16 a.m. The next one 23 from August 7th was sent at 5:03 a.m. For some 24 reason, I wasn't able to look at Thursday, but 25 Friday, August 9'h, was sent out at 5:11 a.m. EFTA00114617 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 And then Saturday, August 10, 2019, it wasn't 2 sent out until almost, it says almost 9:30 a.m. 3 9:26 a.m. Do you know why, any reason, why 4 that could have happened, if, if (Indiscernible 5 *01:41:21). 6 : You know what? It might 7 have been because she didn't go home at the end 8 of her shift, because that kicked off. 9 MR. : But if that didn't kick 10 off until 6:33 a.m. -- 11 : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- her shift, she says 13 she, the person relieved her by 6 a.m. -- 14 MR. : 5:30. 15 MR. : -- at 5, so somewhere 16 between 5:30 a.m. and 6 a.m. -- 17 : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- is there a reason why 19 she wouldn't have sent it out before her shift 20 ended? 21 : I don't know. 22 MR. : You don't know? 23 : No, I don't know. 24 MR. : All right. And then the 25 next day, though, the next couple of days, EFTA00114618 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 Sunday, August 11th, it actually doesn't, isn't 2 sent out until 6:15 a.m., and then the day 3 after that, August 12th, it actually isn't sent 4 out until 6:36 a.m. 5 : Yeah. It all depends on, 6 like, what, like I said, I mean, that's a 7 different story. That was an emergency 8 situation, but there's things, other things 9 that happen. You get tied up. You got to get 10 pulled, you know, got to go see the captain. 11 You got to go, you're in R&D, dealing with 12 something, and then you don't get to close out. 13 Especially if you're doing a double, too. 14 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 15 though, in these cases, like, for the morning 16 watch Ops Lieutenant, do they sometimes get 17 relieved and that's when they work on, oh, I 18 got to get all the, I got to get the activity, 19 or I got to get the daily log and lieutenant's 20 log up-to-date now? 21 : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : And then stay behind to 23 do that? 24 : As far as, well, after 25 you're relieved? EFTA00114619 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : Yep. 2 : It does happen. 3 MR. : Right. 4 : You know, you can't, the 5 bottom line is, as a lieutenant, you should not 6 be leaving and leaving stuff incomplete. 7 MR. : Okay. And it's that Ops 8 Lieutenant's responsibility to complete it? 9 : Yes. 10 MR. : And then once it's 11 completed, are they then supposed to send out, 12 send it out to everybody? 13 : Yes. The morning watch 14 Operations Lieutenant -- 15 MR. : Right. 16 : -- is the one that sends out 17 the paperwork. The daily paperwork. 18 MR. : All right. So, the fact 19 that, if something wasn't sent out before 9:30, 20 does that indicate to you, you know, you, well, 21 it's because she hadn't finished it yet, so she 22 stayed behind in order to finish it? 23 : That definitely could be the 24 case. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just EFTA00114620 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 initialing and dating that? 2 : Sure. 3 MR. : All right. Thank you. 4 Now, here is the one that we were just talking 5 about, that sent out on 6 Saturday, August 10, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. As 7 you'll see, this is August 10th. So I just want 8 to draw your attention to a few things. 9 Friday, August 9th, that starts at 12 a.m., then 10 we get to 8:30 a.m. On this daily activities 11 log, it shows at 8:38 a.m., Reyes, from the 12 SHU, or from ZO6-220 UAD to pre-remove. Who 13 would have filled that out? Do you know? 14 : The Operations Lieutenant. 15 MR. : At the time? 16 : Yeah. Day watch operations. 17 MR. : All right. So, is it R&D 18 should have called and told the Operations 19 Lieutenant, hey, this person is pre-removed and 20 that's how, how would they get that 21 information? 22 : No, well, normally, we would 23 do a 38. 24 MR. : Okay. So, as in, that, 25 he would have been entered in the system at EFTA00114621 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that time, saying remove? 2 : Uh-huh. That would, yeah, 3 and then, cause as the inmates leave the 4 institution, this has to get updated. 5 MR. : But wouldn't, I mean, we 6 do have the 38 that I showed you at 8:38, but 7 would this be R& doing that, or the Operations 8 Lieutenant? 9 : No. The day watch 10 Operations Lieutenant would print out a 38. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 : To do this. To be able to 13 do this. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 : Basically, we would read off 16 of that. 17 MR. : So, would only, so, for 18 this specific thing from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., is 19 this the responsibility of, for instance, in 20 this case, 21 : Day watch operations. Yes. 22 MR. : So, would, could, 23 should, could anyone after , like, you or 24 even , who sent this out -- 25 : Anybody could go back in and EFTA00114622 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 update the log. 2 MR. : And is that a problem, if 3 they do that? 4 : I don't know. I guess now 5 it is, but I don't -- 6 MR. : No, no, no. I'm not, I 7 don't know that it's a problem or not. 8 : No, we, we, we, it's common 9 practice. It's like, if, you know, we could go 10 back and correct, cause this way, look, also, 11 if an incident happened on day watch, I'm not 12 talking about this incident. If, let's say, 13 there was a use of force. 14 MR. : Uh-huh. 15 : And that day watch 16 lieutenant is running the use of force team, 17 the oncoming lieutenant could, like, update the 18 log, so that lieutenant could finish what, you 19 know, he or she was doing with the move. 20 MR. : Okay. But in this case, 21 at 8:38, now, he's listed as pre-removed right 22 here. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : Who do you believe would 25 have entered that? EFTA00114623 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 : It should, in my opinion, it 2 would be the day watch Operations Lieutenant. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : And then, again, if it's listed as pre-removed, would they have known, hey, Reyes is gone? He's not coming back. : That should be an indicator, yes. MR. : Okay. And again, that would have been , so entered this and it actually says, pre-remove. Hey, Reyes is gone. Epstein needs a new roommate or cellmate? : Uh-huh. MR. : All right. Do you remember anything regarding, I know this is at 3:415 p.m., but it says, "I.M. Fernandez, placed on dry cell from Il." Do you remember anything involving that? : I do not. I don't recall. MR. : All right. I'll show you some emails later. But, this, again, do you believe that would that have been the Ops Lieutenant would have entered that? : Yes. Only a lieutenant is doing this log. EFTA00114624 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : Okay. 2 : That's the lieutenant's log. 3 MR. : So, if someone after this 4 shift did this, would they have to, like, is 5 there a way to just kind of enter a line in 6 here to do, you know, extra? How would they 7 modify this? Would they have to modify 8 everything or can you just enter in -- 9 : No. You could add a space. 10 MR. : Add a space? 11 : Add a space. 12 MR. : And then do 13 (Indiscernible *01:46:31). 14 : And then just enter the time 15 and enter it then. 16 MR. : And as far as you're 17 concerned, that's actually not an issue, if 18 they go back and correct something or -- 19 : Not that they go back and 20 correct. If you go back and have to add, 21 because now you're involved in the thing. 22 Like, let's say if I was coming on and you were 23 the day watch Operations Lieutenant, I was the 24 evening watch, and I'm relieving you. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00114625 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 : And you're like, hey, we got 2 a use of force going on upstairs. Right? I 3 got to go run the team. Can you just finish my 4 log? That kind of thing. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : You know? Not so much go 7 back to dot another lieutenant's I's and cross 8 another lieutenant's T's. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : Just like piggyback off of 11 one another. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And I'm sorry, I have to 14 keep leaning in, cause I don't have glasses. 15 MR. : No, no, no. I'm sorry. 16 I'm sorry. So, 3:15, there's this, and this is 17 where the confusing part is. We're not sure 18 who exactly, so this was your shift. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So, would have this top 21 part been something that you would have added, 22 or then brought over? It does say it up here. 23 So, does this all just get transferred from 24 this space over to here? 25 : Yes. Uh-huh. And then, EFTA00114626 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 anything then has to be added or added or taken 2 away. 3 MR. : Okay. So, on this one, 4 it says, "I.M. Fernandez, dry cell with staff 5 in R&D." It says, "Good verbal count 6 announced." Now, this is where it starts 7 getting a little tricky, because we have to -- 8 : Uh-huh. Yeah. I had gone 9 home almost at 10:00. This is where, like I 10 said, where the piggyback would be. 11 MR. : Yep. 12 -: would go, just and 13 close out, because she would be the one here, 14 when the clear count took place. 15 MR. : Okay. So, this is where 16 things get a little whacky, because we're 17 saying, it looks like somebody would have 18 possibly modified this, especially, see, look. 19 This one is Saturday, August 10, 2019. 20 : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Starting at 12 a.m., 22 Lieutenant G. assumes duties. The SHU 23 says 73-5. Well, at 12 a.m., it actually came 24 over as 72-5. At 12:35 a.m., minus one SHU 25 correction, Fernandez, dry cell. Fernandez was EFTA00114627 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 not keyed out of SHU -- 2 : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- until 12:35, although 4 he was removed at 3:15 p.m. We're going to get 5 into the counts now, but all these counts are 6 off. That's not what the counts were. 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : The counts were actually 9 plus one for all of these, although they should 10 have been, these should have been the accurate 11 numbers, but they weren't. 12 : Huh. 13 MR. : It came over, on the 14 counts, these are listed as 73, 73, 72, 74, 75, 15 76. 16 : Always one more. 17 MR. : Right. And it's because 18 this was corrected to go back down to 72-5, and 19 this was 73. So, I'm just trying to piece this 20 together. Would that be, why would have she 21 done that, if she has got listed that there was 22 this correction, why would have she gone back 23 and changed all that stuff? 24 : I don't know. Maybe cause 25 she didn't want to go back and change it. I EFTA00114628 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 don't know. I can't -- 2 MR. : Does that make sense to 3 do that, though? 4 : I can't answer. 5 MR. : If it came over as 73-5, 6 and this list is listed at 72-5, does that make 7 any sense to do that? 8 : No, I would want to go back 9 and verify everything, because then if the 10 count is not right. I would want to ensure 11 that the count is right. 12 MR. : All right. So, let's go 13 over the counts then. 14 : I can't really answer the 15 question, though. I don't know why it was 16 done. 17 MR. : So, here, just to close 18 the loop with Fernandez, here is, so, for 19 instance, here is a, to the lieutenants, it 20 says it's from (Phonetic Sp. *01:50:02) 21 22 : PA, physician's assistant. 23 MR. : Okay. So, it says, you 24 know, inmate name. Here is another one that's 25 from the captain to you, asking you to use a EFTA00114629 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 specific form. It looks like this is a 2 synopsis from on what actually, I guess, 3 transpired. 4 : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : I'm assuming maybe you 6 sent it to him or . So, here is one 7 that sent to you on Friday, August 9, 8 2019, at 6:07 p.m. 9 And this is the, you know, synopsis of 10 what happened. "On August 9, 2019, at 11 approximately 1:40 p.m., SOS , while 12 assigned to the Special Housing Unit, proceeded 13 to enter the 9 South visiting room. As I 14 walked towards the door, I observed through the 15 visiting door inmate Fernandez attempt to grab 16 an unknown item from his visitor. Once inmate 17 Fernandez reached to grab the item, I 18 (Indiscernible *01:50:55) the door and called 19 for a lieutenant. Once I was able to enter the 20 visiting room, I gave inmate Fernandez a direct 21 order to walk to the visiting room to conduct a 22 visual search. Inmate Fernandez complied and a 23 visual search was conducted. Operations 24 Lieutenant was contacted and inmate Fernandez 25 was removed from the unit." EFTA00114630 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 So, should have this been listed as 3:15 2 p.m., or should it have been listed as 1:40 3 p.m.? Do you know? 4 : No, the 3:40 p.m. would be 5 the time that he was placed on dry cell. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 : Would not necessarily be the 8 time of the incident. 9 MR. : All right. So, this, 10 where he did the visual search -- 11 : This is the time, this is 12 the time of the incident. 13 MR. : -- but not the time, 14 okay. This is the time of the incident, dry 15 cell would have been a different thing. All 16 right. Do you remember, I mean, do you 17 remember at all that incident on that day? 18 : I don't recall. It happened 19 so often, so. 20 MR. : Sure. Now, would 21 it says that he sent you this at 6:07 22 p.m. Would have he sent this to you from 23 inside the institution? 24 : Yeah. It would have been 25 from the computer. Email. EFTA00114631 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Okay. So, if he's not 2 listed on anywhere. He's listed as leaving at 3 1:50 p.m. Is it, we're able to tell where 4 was? 5 : That's odd. That is very 6 odd. 7 MR. : And it all makes sense 8 that he was there at 6:07, because all these 9 inmates' emails are going back, you know, use 10 this one. That was at 4:38 p.m., from the 11 captain to you. And from the PA was the one at 12 3:11 p.m. So, I'm trying to figure out, why 13 was here at 6:07 p.m.? 14 : That's very odd. I don't 15 recall. I don't remember. 16 MR. : No? 17 : I don't recall. 18 MR. : But that would have had 19 to have been sent from in here? Especially 20 from an officer, right? 21 : That's, yeah. An officer 22 doesn't have the outside email access. I 23 didn't, as a lieutenant. 24 MR. : Right. So he was 25 definitely here at 6:07 p.m.? EFTA00114632 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 : If that came through at that 2 time, that's on the government computer. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 4 initialing and dating that? Sorry. 5 : No problem. 6 MR. : All right. Now, here's 7 the inmate history move. Just to, so, again, 8 close that loop. So, it shows Fernandez, here 9 are his inmate history quarters. And it shows 10 11 : (Indiscernible *01:53:05) 12 MR. : -- that on 8/2/2019, he 13 was brought to the SHU, Z, and then it shows on 14 15 MR. : 8/10, right next to it. 16 MR. : Yeah, I'm just, just give 17 me a second. So, yeah, then it says that 18 8/10/2019, at 0035, that's when he was moved 19 over, I guess, to, what does that stand for? 20 : That's the R&D cells. 21 MR. : So, R01 is the R&D cells? 22 : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : So, that's when he was 24 keyed out of the system, at 0035. Which does 25 correspond to that, 12:35 a.m. EFTA00114633 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 : Yeah, he was probably never 2 punched out, and they, somebody probably ghost- 3 counted him. 4 MR. : Okay. So, do you mind 5 just initialing and dating that? Thank you, 6 sir. All right. Now, we're going to go into 7 these, just while these lieutenant sheets are 8 up, kind of go into some of these counts. All 9 right. So, here we got the 8/9/2019, Federal, 10 or, sorry, Bureau of Prisons count sheet. This 11 is the E-1, correct? 12 : Yes. 13 MR. : And on the E-1, a- II, 14 what does the number 6 show? 15 : 77. 16 MR. : All right. So, 77. 17 Let's go back to this guy and see what the 18 number says. All right. So, it looks like 77. 19 Okay. Now, what does the /5 mean? 20 : 10 South. 21 MR. : 10 South? 22 : Wait, what, I'm sorry, what? 23 MR. : So, this /5? 24 : Yeah, that's 9 South/10 25 South. EFTA00114634 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 MR. : All right. So, on the 2 daily, on the daily lieutenant's log, it shows 3 77/5, and on the E-1, it shows 77 for II and 5 4 for ZB. And we go, we look at the 5 corresponding count slip for ZB. It says 5. 6 For II, it says 77, correct? 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. Mind just 9 initialing and dating that? 10 MR. : Is that the 5A one? 11 MR. : 5A, yeah. All right. 12 Thank you, sir. Okay. So, now this is where 13 we start getting a little bit into the weeds 14 here. So, this is the 4 p.m. count, correct, 15 on August 9, 2019? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : All right. So, the E-1 18 shows for II, there is, it says for the census 19 column 76, for the count, 75. And is that 20 because one is -- 21 : One is keyed out, right 22 here. Look. Right here, one is from attorney 23 conference. This Atty right here? 24 MR. : Yep. 25 : Is attorney conference, so EFTA00114635 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 you had one out count and two attorney 2 conference. 3 MR. : So, Epstein is in 4 attorney conference. We got one there. So, 5 inside the SHU should be 75, correct? 6 : Yes. 7 MR. : All right. So, for the 4 8 p.m. count, (Indiscernible *01:56:10) count in 9 progress, it shows there should have been 75 or 10 should, this said 76. What should that have 11 said there? 12 : If he was keyed out -- 13 MR. : So, looking at this E-1 - 14 15 : The E-1 is showing that he 16 was in attorney conference. 17 MR. : Right. So, should this 18 number on the lieutenant's log have said 75 or 19 76, based upon this? Should it have said this, 20 76 number or should it -- 21 : It's whatever this is. 22 MR. : So, this should have said 23 75, as of this -- 24 : Yes. Yes. 25 MR. : All right. Now let's go EFTA00114636 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 look at the corresponding. ZB shows 5. II 75. : 75. MR. : All right. So, that's correct, then? MR. MR. : Yes. : Based upon that? Yep. : All right. Do you mind initialing and dating? MR. : Just a question on that. Keep in mind, you started off the day at 77. : Uh-huh. MR. : (Indiscernible *01:57:07)Efrain Reyes was removed. MR. MR. MR. that? : We'll get into that. Okay. 74. : Yeah, I'm just, what's MR. : Shouldn't this be 74? MR. : I'm just, I just want to know, according to this, cause we can go back to things. MR. : Okay. MR. : All right. So, here is the 8/9/2019. It shows, this is for the 10 EFTA00114637 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 p.m. count. So, this II says 73 and 73, 2 correct? 3 : Yes. 4 MR. : All right. So, the 10 5 p.m. count, good verbal announced. What does 6 that say? 7 : 72. 8 MR. : 72, so the daily 9 lieutenant's log says 72 here, but this says 10 73. 11 : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Okay. Do you know why 13 that would be? 14 : I don't know. There might 15 have been somebody, math was messed up, as far 16 as the lieutenants. As long as this is right, 17 and this jives with the officer's counting in 18 the units, that's what matters. That means we 19 don't have an escape. This, you know, people, 20 I'm not the greatest mathematician in the 21 world. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : You know, you make a, what's 24 the word, an arithmetic mistake. 25 MR. : Sure, sure. Do you EFTA00114638 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 believe, though, this would have said 73, since 2 this over here says 73, on the next day? 3 : I mean, it should. If there 4 was no movement. 5 MR. : Right. 6 : Between the evening watch 7 and the morning watch. 8 MR. : Right. And we'll go 9 through the numbers, like you were just 10 suggesting, later. I'm just trying to 11 correlate what this says, what this says, with 12 what this says. 13 : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : You know, so they are 15 different numbers here. All right. So, the 16 fact that this says on it? 17 : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Would that mean that he 19 would have been the one that actually takes the 20 count? 21 : He was the one that took the 22 count. 23 MR. : So, even though, when we 24 go back before you said that, I think you said 25 that Control 1 would have been doing the keys EFTA00114639 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 and all that stuff. 2 : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : And , did I 4 pronounce that? 5 -: 6 MR. would have been, 7 but looking at the actual E-1, it looks like I. 8 actually took the count? 9 : Yeah. Well, at 10:00, 10 though, nobody is coming in or out, except 11 basically whoever is on 2 to 10. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And also at 10:00, he's 14 alone. 15 MR. : Oh, he's alone? So, 16 is not there? 17 : Yeah, cause goes home 18 at 10:00. 19 20 21 22 23 p.m. Okay. So, is the one who did the 24 10 p.m. All right. Now we're on the same 25 page. Now we're going to look at the MR. : All right. So, is there. Who was the one on the 4 p.m.? MR. MR. : Okay. did the 4 EFTA00114640 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 167 1 corresponding count slips. You would have been 2 gone by this count, correct? 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. : All right. So you're 5 gone now. So here's R&D. We get 1. But on 6 the, where would it have shown R&D on this? 7 : Wherever he was keyed out 8 of. 9 MR. : Would it have been this 10 RA? 11 : Yeah. It should have been 12 II. It should have been somewhere over here in 13 this column. 14 MR. : All right. So, we got 15 no, we got a count slip for R&D 1. 16 : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : But nothing on the E-1, 18 saying there was anybody in there. And then 19 we've got II, 73. So, this one says 95 plus 1, 20 on top of the R&D 1, and then we go over to the 21 count slip. Or not, sorry. 22 : 9 South plus 1. 23 MR. : 9 South plus 1. Sorry. 24 : That's why, they ghost- 25 counted him from 9 South in R&D. EFTA00114641 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. : All right. So, if you 2 read this, this one says, for II, says 73 plus 3 1. 4 : Yeah, plus 1. 5 MR. : Does that mean that that 6 actually should be 74, if they're saying plus 7 1? 8 : Unless that's the plus 1, I 9 don't know how they did the numbers. How they 10 did the math. 11 MR. : Okay. Have you ever seen 12 anything like this before? Plus ls? 13 : I've seen them ghost- 14 counting. 15 MR. : Have you seen plus is on 16 our count slips? 17 : No. 18 MR. : All right. What about 19 the fact that -- 20 : Cause honestly, in 21 years, 21 this is the first time I'm seeing a plus 1 on a 22 count slip. 23 MR. : Okay. So you have never 24 seen a plus 1 before? 25 : No. EFTA00114642 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 MR. : What about, have you ever 2 seen anything where every single count slip is 3 crossed off, aside from these two? 4 : Yes. I don't know about 5 these two. I know as, when you're taking the 6 count -- 7 MR. : Yep. 8 : I normally, that's how we 9 get the clear count. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 : When we do the good verbal 12 by, what we do is, we make one line. When the 13 unit officers call 14 MR. : On the E-1, right? 15 : -- we make the one line on 16 the E-1. Once I get all the paper, cause what 17 we'll do is, like, once I have a good verbal, i 18 do the one line and I see every unit has got a 19 good verbal. That's when I tell Control, we 20 got a good verbal count at whatever time. And 21 then we say, awaiting paper. And once internal 22 brings down all the count slips, whoever that 23 person is that's taking the count will have 24 those count slips in front. Not everybody does 25 it. I do it. I would, I'm a crosser. And EFTA00114643 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 what I do is I verify everything and that's 2 when I make my X on the E-1. 3 MR. : Does this suggest 4 anything to you, though, the fact that every 5 one of these count slips is crossed off, aside 6 from R&D, where there is no one actually on the 7 E-1 -- 8 : And SHU. 9 MR. : -- and then SHU, which 10 has the 73 plus 1, on the E-1, it says 73. On 11 the count slip, it says 73 plus 1, but on the 12 daily log, it says 72. Any, does that indicate 13 anything to you, the fact that those aren't 14 crossed out? 15 : The only thing that jumps 16 out at me is that it might have been somebody 17 else that did these two count slips versus 18 these. 19 MR. : Like someone who was 20 taking the count, like ? Would 21 would have been the person that, like, crossed 22 these things out? 23 : I don't recall if he was a 24 crosser or not. 25 MR. : But who, if it wasn't I. EFTA00114644 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 , who would it have been? 2 : At that point in time, it 3 was only him in Control. 4 MR. : All right. And it was 5 : If the lieutenant was in 6 there, she would, her name would be here. 7 MR. : So who would have taken 8 over for you? You said you only worked until 9 10? 10 : I worked until 10. 11 MR. : So who would have taken 12 over at 10? 13 -: relieved me that 14 night. 15 MR. : So, would have 16 relieved you at 10? 17 : And then she worked until 6 18 in the morning. 19 MR. : Okay. So, she didn't 20 start at midnight. She started at 10. Okay. 21 : Yeah. That's why I was 22 saying the Ops Lieutenant, we used to do the 23 two hour differences. 24 MR. : So, is it possible that 25 actually took this count? EFTA00114645 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : I'm trying to, may I? 2 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. Are 3 you able to even tell -- 4 : She did take it. This is 5 her signature. 6 MR. : All right. So, 7 took the 10 p.m. count? 8 -: prepared the count. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 : This is her, this is her 11 loop in there, taking the count. 12 MR. : All right. So, 13 took the 10 p.m. count. Okay. And then, this 14 is where, so, can you tell from this E-1 on 15 August 10, 2019, at the 12 a.m. 16 : 3, this is 3:40. 17 MR. : Sorry. Oh, no, no, no. 18 So, you're saying the 12 a.m. count, 19 took? 20 : Yes. 21 MR. : All right. Not the 10 22 p.m.? 23 : The 10 p.m., did by 24 himself. 25 MR. -: took, so, forget EFTA00114646 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that. 2 : I'm sorry, the time is, I 3 mean. 4 MR. : Yeah, absolutely. So, 5 did the 10 p.m., the ones that have the 6 count slips with the 9 South plus 1, and the 73 7 plus 1. did the 12 a.m. count. 8 : 12, yeah. 9 MR. : And the 12 a.m. count is 10 the one where it goes from the E-1 at 10 p.m., 11 the day before, with 73, the 12 a.m. E-1, is 12 72, and now let's go to the corresponding count 13 slips. II, what's the number on that? 14 : 73. 15 MR. : 73. So the count slip 16 says 73 for 12 a.m., but the E-1 says 72. 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. : Can you think of why that 19 would be? 20 : Like I said, the only thing 21 that comes to mind is a ghost count. 22 MR. : Okay. Then the RA still 23 says 1, though. Can you ghost count someone if 24 they're putting in count slips for 1? 25 : No, cause then there would EFTA00114647 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 be, it would be off by plus I. 2 MR. : And then R&D now has 1 in 3 there, correct? 4 : One, yeah. 5 MR. : So, 72 in II, 1 in RA. 6 : This is, this is jiving with 7 this. That's working. 8 MR. : Now it's working, here it 9 wasn't. 10 : From what I understand. 11 From what I'm, the way I'm reading it. 12 MR. : Right. Have you ever 13 seen anything like this before? 14 : I have never seen plus is 15 written on the count slip. 16 MR. : Plus, what about count 17 slips that aren't corresponding with what's -- 18 : I have seen staff, but 19 normally, you have, you call that unit officer 20 and be, like, hey, I need a new count slip. 21 The count slip is wrong. That I have seen. 22 MR. : All right. 23 : Plus is, I have never seen. 24 I have never seen anybody write a plus 1 on a 25 count slip. EFTA00114648 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 MR. : Okay. And then 3 a.m. 2 again is a Does this mean that -- 3 : Cause he's alone, yeah. A 4 lieutenant only has to do one count on a shift. 5 MR. : Sure. And is there any 6 indication that anybody on here did anything, 7 other than 8 : No. That's his -- 9 MR. : Okay. And then again, 10 says 72, 72. Z-- 11 : ZB? 12 MR. : ZB says 5. And RA says 1 13 and 1. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : And again, there are the 16 corresponding count slips now. The count slips 17 for II do say 72, and ZB says 5, and the RA 18 says 1. Same thing with the -- 19 : 5 a.m. 20 MR. : -- the 5 a.m. count. 21 Same deal. We don't need to go into the rest 22 of them for this. So, does this indicate to 23 you for all, does this indicate anything to you 24 for all of this? Does it indicate that they 25 weren't conducting their counts at all? Let's EFTA00114649 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 take this out of the picture and let's directly 2 focus on the E-1 and the count slips here. The 3 fact that at the 10 p.m. count, they're listed 4 73. The count slip says 73 plus 1. And then 5 the 12 a.m. says 72. Count slip says 73. And 6 then on the daily lieutenant's log, the guy, 7 Fernandez, is keyed out at 035 hours, because 8 he was keyed into the SHU the whole time. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : And then everything is, 11 from that point forward, is corrected to 72. 12 So he was never present in the SHU. We have 13 got the 10 p.m. and the 12 a.m. counts, we both 14 have count slips for, saying that he's there in 15 RA, and somehow, their numbers, there is only 16 72 people in the SHU. So the count slips are 17 showing 73 people. There's only 72 people in 18 there. The E-1 at 10 p.m. says 73, even though 19 there's only 72 people in there. 20 : Two. 21 MR. : The E-1 at midnight does 22 show 72, but that's only because at 12:35 -- 23 : It was corrected. 24 MR. : It was corrected. And 25 the count slip says 73, although there were EFTA00114650 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 177 1 only 72 people in there. Does that indicate to 2 you that the people in the SHU were just 3 basically going off of what the E-1 should have 4 said, versus counting it themselves? 5 : It's possible. I mean, I 6 know that they are charged with falsifying 7 documents. 8 MR. : Yep. 9 : I know they say that they 10 did not conduct a count, so I guess so. I 11 guess that's what they, I don't know. 12 MR. : How would have they 13 gotten the number 73? So, 73 is what is on the 14 E-1. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : There is only 72 people 17 in the SHU. But they're listing 73 on the 18 count slip. 19 : It could have been easily, 20 in my opinion, it could have been easily as 21 they were going off of the SHU locator, and the 22 locator wasn't corrected. 23 MR. : What's the SHU locator? 24 : It's basically a chart with 25 the cell assignments and the inmates names and EFTA00114651 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 numbers written in it. So, basically, you have 2 what inmates are in where. Right? 3 MR. : So, it's like a document? 4 : It's not, like, an official 5 BOP thing. It's something that was brought, 6 it's like made in Word. It's basically like, 7 almost like a blueprint. But it's of, it will 8 have the cells, and it will state what names, 9 like, the SHU staff use it to also, when 10 they're doing the showers, right, they'll mark 11 off who got their showers. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 : And everything like that. 14 MR. : Is that something that 15 only the SHU staff has? 16 : That's only, that's 17 upstairs. Unless you're -- 18 MR. : Does the E-1 people, does 19 Control have access to that? 20 : Not everybody has access to 21 a PPE-1. 22 MR. : So, the thing, though, 23 that, if they're using this thing that you 24 just, what did you call it again? 25 : The locator. EFTA00114652 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : So, if they're, the SHU 2 staff is using a locator, does the people in 3 Control have access to that locator? 4 : Not to the locator, no. 5 That's a SHU thing. 6 MR. : All right. And then some 7 people in the SHU could have had access to, 8 what are the people in the Control utilizing? 9 : Control have the E-1 access. 10 Lieutenants have an E-1 access. 11 MR. : All right. 12 : Not everybody has full 13 Sentry access. 14 MR. : All right. So, going to 15 this 10 p.m. count, do you know if, so who, on 16 the II count slip, it says and Noel, 17 correct? 18 : That's definitely 19 Yeah, Noel, all right. I don't know what I'm 20 looking at. I'm sorry. I don't have my 21 readers. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 : N-O-E-L, yeah. 24 MR. : Do you know if either of 25 these people would have had access to this E-1 EFTA00114653 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 data? it. : I do not know if they had MR. : You don't know? : I do not know. MR. : Okay. : Computer Services would have a record of who has access to what on Sentry. MR. : All right. Fair enough. And do you know anything about them falsifying their counts? : I do not. MR. : No? : Like I said, I only know what I have read and what I hear. MR. : Okay. And what have you heard? : The same thing that you, they're being charged with ringing (Indiscernible *02:10:43). I heard that they were sleeping and they didn't count and -- MR. : Had you heard at all that either the 4 p.m. or the 10 p.m. counts weren't conducted? : No. I heard the overnight EFTA00114654 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 counts. 2 MR. : All right. So just the 3 midnight, 3, and 5? 4 : Yes. 5 MR. : But you hadn't heard 6 about the 4 or 10? 7 : I was told that at 10:00, 8 not that I was told, from what I heard, at 9 10:00, he was alive. 10 MR. : Okay. Again, though, 11 going back to this lieutenant -- 12 : Do you want me to sign this? 13 MR. : Yeah. I'm going to have 14 you do that now. Going back to these 15 lieutenant logs, do you know why, how that 16 could be off, too, though, if the E-1 and the 17 count slips are all saying 73 at 10 p.m., why 18 would they be writing 72 here? 19 : Honestly, I don't know. 20 Like I said, some people are better in math 21 than others. It could be just a simple 22 arithmetic mistake. 23 MR. : But do you think that 24 being that it came over as 73, 25 is the one that corrected Fernandez being out, EFTA00114655 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 and then she doesn't send the activities report 2 daily log out until 9:30 a.m. Do you think 3 that she would have gone back in there and 4 maybe she just -- 5 : I don't know. I don't know. 6 MR. : Would have she been 7 authorized to do that? 8 : No. I don't know. I can't 9 answer that question. I have, I'm not -- 10 MR. : But you had mentioned 11 that people can go in and (Indiscernible 12 *02:11:57). 13 : It can be done. You can go 14 back and do it. 15 MR. : Now, should she have? 16 : No. Not that I know, unless 17 she saw that, unless she was trying to make the 18 correction, to make sure that everything was 19 right with the count. 20 MR. : And that's what I mean. 21 : Which we, you know, we all 22 try to look, you know, to better, at the end of 23 the day, remember, accountability is the most 24 important thing. 25 MR. : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00114656 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 : So, we would try to make 2 sure that it's there, and it's not to, like, 3 cover up or anything like that, cause at this 4 point in time, nothing was wrong. So, you're 5 not covering up anything. And at that point in 6 time, once that happened in the morning, she 7 wouldn't have been able to do this anyway, 8 cause the FBI was already here, taking 9 everything. 10 MR. : Well, if someone says 11 that at 9:30, well, this is all, this is all 12 done electronically, right? She sent this out 13 electronically? 14 : You get, have to email that, 15 yes. 16 MR. : Right. And is it my 17 understanding that this is actually created in, 18 like, a Word document, that is in a shared 19 folder? 20 : It's in the shared folder. 21 It's in, but only lieutenants have access to 22 that. 23 MR. : Right. 24 : And the captain. 25 MR. : So, if someone is in that EFTA00114657 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 shared folder, and they can tell, someone is 2 modifying that thing right now, and it's at, 3 like, 9:30. 4 : Oh, well, that's the thing. 5 But if there is, only one person can be in 6 there at the time. 7 MR. : Right. 8 : If I try to go into that log 9 program and another lieutenant was on it, I 10 wouldn't be able to. 11 MR. : Right. So, if the 12 captain notices that someone is in there, 13 modifying that log -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- at that time, is that 16 okay? 17 : I'm sure that would bring, 18 like, flag something. The captain would be, 19 like, what's going on? 20 MR. : Right. 21 : Yeah. 22 MR. : But, okay. But if you 23 were , and you were the one 24 modifying this thing, and you are going back 25 and basically, you know, changing this stuff, EFTA00114658 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 do you think that would be acceptable? Or 2 should have she left it as it was and just left 3 her one saying 73, I corrected it, brought it 4 back to 72 and left the day before, the August 5 9th date alone and just stuck with August 10th? 6 : I believe so. 7 MR. : You believe she should 8 have just stuck with August 10th? 9 : I do my own things. 10 MR. : Right. 11 : It's not my job to correct 12 another lieutenant. 13 MR. : All right. And do you 14 believe there would be something wrong with her 15 doing that, though? Going back to August 9th 16 and changing things? 17 : No. Because it was past 18 practice. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 : You know, it's something 21 that we have always done that, you know, from 22 the very first time. I personally don't like 23 correcting other people. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : But you mentioned it would EFTA00114659 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 have been that, if you piggyback off each 2 other. 3 : Yeah. 4 MR. : Something came up. She 5 (Indiscernible *02:14:29). 6 : Like I said, like, for 7 instance, I go home at 10, right? She is 8 relieving me at 10, but there is still going to 9 be a good verbal and a clear count after I'm 10 gone. 11 MR. : And that's true. 12 : But then she would have to 13 go -- 14 MR. : She's actually starting 15 on August 9th. 16 : She would have to be going 17 back into mine in order to put the, clear the 18 count, because she can't put 10:30 good verbal 19 and 10:45 clear count on her log, cause it's 20 after midnight. Does that make sense? So, she 21 will go, like, things like that, you piggyback. 22 Just like if, like, we end up, we do the two 23 hour relief thing, you know, you got to, you 24 piggyback, but otherwise, I don't go back to, 25 like, correct another person. That's me, EFTA00114660 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 personally. 2 MR. : But she did start on 3 August 9th, and what you're saying is you don't 4 find it problematic that she did correct 5 something? You don't think there's anything 6 wrong with it? You just wouldn't have done it? 7 : I wouldn't have done it 8 personally. 9 MR. : Right. 10 : But I don't think there's 11 nothing wrong with what she did. 12 MR. : Did you want to talk 13 about these anymore, about the lieutenant logs? 14 MR. : No. We covered it. 15 MR. : All right. Okay. 16 : I don't know if there is a 17 certain order I'm supposed to -- 18 MR. : No, yeah, I just keep it, 19 I kept them in order. They're all in order of 20 the counts. Thank you for initialing and 21 signing everything. And we had to go past 22 that, so, this would be, thank you, sir. 23 : You're welcome. 24 MR. : This is the last thing we 25 have got. All right. So, we have only got two EFTA00114661 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 more documents or something. So, these are 2 the, what are these? 3 : These are the round sheets. 4 MR. : So, is this L tier? 5 Would that be where Epstein was housed for 6 8/9/2019, in the SHU? 7 : Yes. 8 MR. : All right. And did you 9 say you had heard that these were not 10 conducted? 11 : Well, like, for instance, 12 case in point, I don't know who this is, but I 13 wouldn't have, when I made rounds, unless he 14 made rounds around this time, or prior to this 15 time, these were never finished. 16 MR. : Okay. So, this person, 17 if you didn't go do the round, who, do you 18 believe, would have gone in and actually signed 19 off on that? 20 : It would be the either/or. 21 I don't recognize -- 22 MR. : Does that look like -- 23 : I know this is me. 24 MR. : Okay. So, you actually 25 did a round in there? EFTA00114662 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 : I did the rounds somewhere, 2 no, wait a minute, is this me? 3 MR. : I thought you said 4 did the round. 5 -: did make the round in 6 SHU. I don't know why I'm, I don't know why my 7 signature is on here. 8 MR. : That is your signature, 9 though? 10 : It looks like my MC. But I 11 didn't make rounds in SHU. I know that. I 12 didn't make the evening watch rounds. 13 MR. : Shoot. I didn't print 14 off the list for the lieutenants, cause 15 there's, but that is your signature on there? 16 : That looks like my MC. 17 MR. : And would have you had to 18 have gone to the actual SHU to do that? 19 : Yes, I would have had to 20 have, and I didn't make rounds up there that 21 night. 22 MR. : Any idea how that would 23 have gotten on there, if you didn't, you 24 weren't in there? 25 : No. No. I don't. EFTA00114663 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. : Do you know if anyone 2 asked you after the fact to sign off on 3 something? 4 : Not necessarily. No. But I 5 know I didn't make rounds up there, but that 6 looks like my MC. And this is the first I'm 7 seeing this. 8 MR. : Yeah. It does look 9 exactly like what you have been doing. I 10 didn't even notice that before. So, this is 11 your signature on the 8/9/2019 -- 12 : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- 30 minute check sheet, 14 but you did not visit the SHU on August 9th? 15 : No. I did not make rounds. 16 My Activities Lieutenant made rounds that 17 night. 18 MR. : Would it have anything to 19 do with the fact that she was an Acting 20 Activities Lieutenant? 21 : I mean, no, because I don't 22 remember, I don't recall signing the round 23 sheet for that shift. 24 MR. : Cause it looks like all 25 of, it looks like all of them are you, right? EFTA00114664 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 : Well, some, one thing right 2 here, too, it's not signed off on here, either. 3 MR. : So the bottom aren't 4 signed off on. Well, who -- 5 : The morning watch went, upon 6 coming in, oh, you know what? I'm 7 not, I don't remember doing it, but the only 8 thing I could think of is when it gets picked 9 up, but the thing is, this don't get picked up, 10 it don't get sent down until morning watch. 11 So, I don't, I don't remember, I really don't 12 remember signing that. But I really don't 13 remember signing that, and it looks like the 14 morning watch lieutenant didn't sign, either. 15 Cause then if you look at this, I wouldn't have 16 signed, if I saw rounds not done. Remember, I 17 said that earlier. 18 MR. : So does this at all look 19 like it could have been, like, cut and paste or 20 why, why would that be modified? 21 : I don't know. 22 MR. : Do you have any reason to 23 believe that that is not your signature? 24 : I don't recall signing it, 25 but that looks like my MC. I always initial. EFTA00114665 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 I don't ever fully sign. I always do the MC, 2 as you can see, I do the MC in the circle. 3 Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't 4 recall. I don't recall signing it, but that is 5 my signature. I didn't make rounds. The only 6 thing I could, I could assume is maybe 7 asked me to sign because she made the round, 8 but she is not an actual lieutenant. But I 9 don't recall. 10 MR. : But would have she had, 11 like, literally have been allowed to bring, 12 take the -- 13 : No. No. That's the thing. 14 They can't leave the unit until morning watch. 15 This gets sent down for the morning watch. 16 MR. : All right. 17 : Like, when came in 18 for Saturday morning watch -- 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 : -- this, after midnight, 21 between 11:30 and 12 is the last round for the 22 evening shift. Then this gets sent out. 23 That's why I'm looking at this, look, it's on 24 this one. It's on this one, but where is it 25 here? It's not here. It's not here. So, EFTA00114666 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 what, was one tier, two tiers done and not the 2 other? There's six tiers up there. 3 MR. : And they're all for 4 8/9/2019? So, we got some kind of discrepancy 5 going on with these. 6 : I don't remember signing 7 that. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:21:12). 9 MR. : And you would, you would 10 have signed it before 10 p.m.? Before you 11 left? 12 : Yeah. Before I left. 13 MR. : So you don't remember 14 ever visiting the SHU? 15 : I might have been up in the 16 SHU, like, to move an inmate or whatever have 17 you, or like, to lock somebody up, but I don't 18 even remember if I did or not, honestly. I 19 don't remember. 20 MR. : Do you believe that you 21 didn't? 22 : I don't remember signing it. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 : I do not remember signing 25 the round sheet and I know made rounds EFTA00114667 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 that night. 2 MR. : So, what, I guess what 3 I'm asking is, what is this? So, this one 4 still says 8/9, but for ZB -- 5 : That's 10 South. 6 MR. : But 10 South, you got to 7 go through the SHU to get to 10 South. 8 : Yes. 9 MR. : Who is that person? 10 : I'm not sure. I don't know. 11 I don't recognize it. It could be 12 It looks like an R and something else. 13 MR. : So, do you believe that 14 in some way, then, do you believe that you did 15 not sign the 8/9/2019 count sheet? 16 : I don't remember signing it. 17 MR. : Right. Right. 18 : I could have very well 19 MR. : I guess what I'm asking 20 is, like, do we now have to look into, oh, 21 crap, this stuff might have been, like, copied 22 and pasted and put onto something else? 23 : I don't know. Well, 24 actually, I don't know. I can't answer that 25 question. I just don't, I do not, I can tell EFTA00114668 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 you I do not remember signing it, but I do 2 remember, I did not make rounds in SHU. I 3 don't remember signing it. I don't. 4 MR. : All right. 5 : But that is, I can't, that's 6 my MC. 7 MR. : All right. So, your 8 signature is on these, but you don't recall 9 signing it, and you did not do rounds? 10 : I did not make the round in 11 SHU. 12 MR. : So, if you didn't do a 13 round in SHU, were you off, could have you 14 signed it? 15 : What do you mean? Wait, I'm 16 17 MR. : So, you signed it, saying 18 that you did a round, but you didn't actually 19 do a round? 20 : I didn't make the rounds in 21 SHU. And I don't remember signing this. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 : Could I have signed it, 24 like, hey, you missed a signature? Possibly. 25 But I don't remember signing it. Cause I know EFTA00114669 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 I didn't make rounds that night. 2 MR. : Right. So, your 3 signature is on there, saying you did a round, 4 but you did not do rounds? 5 : Huh-uh. But I didn't, I 6 wasn't there. I didn't make the round in SHU. 7 MR. : Why do you clearly remember 8 that you didn't go in the SHU that night? 9 : I'm sorry? 10 MR. : Why do you remember that you 11 never went -- 12 : Because I was trying to hire 13 overtime for the morning watch shift most of 14 the night. At that point in time, with how 15 short we were lieutenants, and how short we 16 were staffed, an Operations Lieutenant would 17 spend at least four hours a shift, trying to 18 just fill the overtime. And I remember, cause 19 I even, I think, if I recall correctly, I 20 remember, I even mandated Noel to work in SHU 21 that night, for the overnight. 22 MR. : So you think you spent most 23 of the time in the office, trying to -- 24 : Yes. I was doing the 25 roster, trying to fill the roster when EFTA00114670 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 said, hey, I got it, Lou. I'll take Epstein 2 upstairs, the night before. 3 MR. : Do you think anyone could 4 have filled your signature in? 5 : Unless, unless they traced 6 it. 7 MR. : But that does appear to 8 be your signature? 9 : It's my MC, but it doesn't 10 look the same on all of them, like, this one, 11 it looks a little different than here. 12 MR. : But, for, I guess, the 13 next person to come in and sign would have been 14 this individual. 15 : That's 16 MR. -: 17 : Yeah. 18 MR. : So, do you have any 19 reason to believe that would have 20 signed for you? 21 : No. No. 22 MR. : If she noticed that this 23 block was empty? 24 : No. No. 25 MR. : So you don't believe EFTA00114671 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 would have done that? : No. I don't believe 198 3 would have done that at all. 4 MR. : So you do believe that 5 this is your signature? 6 : I believe it's my signature, 7 but I just don't remember signing that. I 8 don't. 9 MR. : And you don't remember 10 even going to the SHU. 11 : I didn't make rounds that 12 evening, no. 13 MR. : And you don't remember 14 actually even going into the SHU that -- 15 : Not that I recall. No. 16 MR. : So that's (Indiscernible 17 *02:25:05) like how could have your signature 18 got on there? 19 : You would have to, you would 20 have to, you would have to review the cameras, 21 but I don't recall signing this paper. And I 22 know I didn't make rounds, because even when 23 went in with you guys in the FBI and the AUSA, 24 she even told me name before I even 25 said it. I said, my Activities Lieutenant made EFTA00114672 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 rounds that night in SHU, and she said, that's 2 Acting Lieutenant, II . I 3 said, you are, I said, correct. I still 4 recall, I recall that interview. 5 MR. : So, because this has such 6 a high level focus now -- 7 : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- this is something that 9 is actually, unfortunately, brand-new to us -- 10 : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : -- we're going to have to 12 somehow resolve that. 13 : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : Do you have any, any kind 15 of explanation to how that could have happened 16 then? You didn't do rounds in SHU. You never 17 even went in the SHU, and you could only sign 18 this document from within the SHU. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : And this is the documents 21 that were obtained. 22 : No, this could get signed in 23 the lieutenant's office, after it's collected. 24 MR. : All right, so this could 25 have been collected -- EFTA00114673 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 : Every night, this gets, the 2 six round sheets gets sent down to the 3 lieutenant's office. 4 MR. : So, do you think -- 5 : That might have been when I 6 signed it, but this would have, I wasn't here 7 on morning watch. 8 MR. : What about on August 10th, 9 when you did come back from the hospital? You 10 came back, right, on August 10th? 11 : Yeah. I was here the whole 12 day. I didn't go home. I don't remember 13 exactly, but I know it was, like, around 4:00 14 ish, 5:00 ish, when I got home, when I left. 15 MR. : So, I mean, it doesn't 16 look like, these things look like they were 17 taken right away, you know? 18 : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : After Noel -- 20 : That might have very well 21 been what happened. 22 MR. : That you signed it the 23 next day? 24 : I might have signed it when 25 it was sitting on the lieutenant's office pile. EFTA00114674 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 MR. : All right. Can you give 2 me the 4 p.m. count again, now that you're 3 saying that it's sparking my memory that people 4 are saying that other documents weren't signed, 5 as they should have been, the 4 p.m. count? 6 Were there places that you, as the Ops 7 Lieutenant, you were supposed to sign that you 8 didn't here? 9 : This was, this should be 10 signed off by the day watch Operations 11 Lieutenant. 12 MR. : So that's day watch? 13 That wouldn't have been you? 14 : Yeah. Yeah. Cause here I 15 am, I signed that one, right there. 16 MR. : So, you said this one on 17 page, the third page should have been 18 that signed that one? 19 : It could have been 20 MR. : Count time, 4 p.m. 21 or myself. 22 MR. : But then you say you 23 started at 2? 24 : Yeah. No, I'm saying, it 25 could have been me. EFTA00114675 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 MR. : And you did the count? 2 : It could have been 3 either/or. 4 MR. : Who did the count? 5 -: took the count. 6 MR. : Okay. And you didn't 7 participate in the 4 p.m.? 8 : No. 9 MR. : Did you participate in 10 the count that day? 11 : I'm not sure. I don't 12 remember. I don't remember. 13 MR. : But so at 4 p.m., you 14 were from 2 to 10. was only until 2. 15 And this is the 4, so shouldn't you have signed 16 that? 17 : I could, I could have been 18 the one that should have signed it, cause I 19 signed this one right here. I signed that, I 20 know I signed that out count. 21 MR. : So what is this one that 22 doesn't have a signature? What is that for? 23 : This one right here? That's 24 the total out count and there was one cadre 25 from 11 South out. EFTA00114676 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So that one 2 doesn't have a signature, but the fourth page 3 does and that's your signature, you said? 4 : That's me. 5 MR. : Anything else on here 6 that needed to have signatures by you guys? 7 : Yeah. I don't know who, I 8 don't know who signed that one right there. 9 MR. : That's , saying 10 that she signed -- 11 : No, that's from, it's from 12 13 MR. : Oh, cause she was still 14 in attorney conference for the 4 p.m. 15 : Yeah. This is, I don't know 16 whose signature that is. 17 MR. : But that's not yours? 18 : That's not mine. 19 MR. : So, at 4 p.m., the 20 attorney conference approved by, you can't 21 actually even make that out. 22 : I can't. I don't know who 23 that is. 24 MR. : If that's supposed to be 25 the Operations Lieutenant, this is not you, by EFTA00114677 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 looking at this daily roster, can you deduce 2 who it could have been? ? It's not 3 , because -- 4 : It's going to be or 5 , one of the two. 6 MR. : You can have 4 p.m., if 7 is gone at 2? 8 : Oh, no, no, cause he's gone 9 at 2. Both of them were gone at 2. But that's 10 not me. That's definitely not me. You see, I 11 do the M, the M circle everywhere. 12 MR. : So, is the one 13 that would have provided this to somebody to 14 sign? 15 : Yeah. She would have given 16 the out count to the Operations Lieutenant. 17 MR. : All right. So we have to 18 ask who signed this? 19 : Yeah. Cause I don't know 20 who that is. I don't know whose signature that 21 is. 22 MR. : And none of these people 23 on here that are working that day look like 24 anybody that that could, that would have the 25 authority to do that? EFTA00114678 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 : No. There are only two 2 people, these are the only, was the 3 captain, the lieutenants, and , and 4 myself are the only people. I mean 5 MR. : It's not . It's 6 not you. 7 : An acting, an acting 8 lieutenant could sign, if they're in that 9 capacity, but she was still attorney conference 10 when this was done. 11 MR. : All right. 12 : So, I don't know whose 13 signature that is. 14 MR. : And then this -- 15 : And that's mine. 16 MR. : And that one is yours, so 17 for the official out count. Is this weird to 18 you at all, this, the fact that somebody else's 19 signature is on that? 20 : Yeah. I don't know who the 21 fuck, cause I know I didn't sign it. And I 22 know, this was probably just a slip of the, I 23 forgot to sign it, the other one. 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 : Because I signed everything EFTA00114679 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 else. MR. : So the one, so one is that you were supposed to have signed was signed by someone else, and another one looks like you forgot. : I forgot. MR. : So, it would have been J. Smalls? : No. Smalls was the one that was in R&D. This is the R&D, coming from R&D out count. MR. : So who would have provided this to you, to sign it? : R&D. MR. : All right. So, Small would have given that to you to sign? : Yeah. MR. : But in this case, it sounds like she didn't? : No. I don't know. I don't remember if she didn't (Indiscernible *02:31:02) give it to me right off the bat, or if I just forgot to sign it. It could be, I forgot to sign it. MR. : Okay. EFTA00114680 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 : But I don't know who that is 2 on that other one. I don't even, it looks 3 like, it just looks like a squiggly line. 4 MR. : So, on the 4 p.m. count, 5 after the E-1, so there's, on the third page, 6 you forgot to sign. On the fifth page, fourth 7 page, you did sign. Seventh page, shows the 8 official count from R. . That is not 9 your signature. All right. And then the last 10 one is you as well. 11 : I signed. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Which is the official out 13 count from the hospital. So, the attorney 14 conference room, you got to figure out whose 15 signature that is. And no one would have been 16 authorized, as you know -- 17 : A lieutenant is supposed to 18 sign the out count. 19 MR. : But it could have been a 20 lieutenant? But there are, as far as you know, 21 there is no other lieutenants that were 22 actually even in the building at that time? 23 : Unless this was done before, 24 an out count has to be in 45 minutes prior to 25 the count. So that means it would have had to EFTA00114681 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 be done no later than 3:15. Unless that was 2 done before went home, I don't know. 3 MR. : But it doesn't even look 4 like it would be a 5 : It doesn't. 6 MR. : Carlos? Oh, that could 7 be Carlos 8 : I don't know, it just, it 9 looks like a squiggly line. But that's 10 definitely not my signature. You have been 11 watching me sign papers all this interview. I 12 do the MC circle -- 13 MR. : Yeah, no, I know it's not 14 yours. That's what I'm just trying to figure 15 out who it is. 16 : Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. 17 MR. : No, there's no question. 18 It's not yours Do you remember that day, 19 though, you're positive you came in at 2? 20 : I don't even know why it 21 says non-custody here. 22 MR. : Somebody indicated that 23 someone manipulated that, and that it shouldn't 24 say non-custody. 25 : I was custody at the time. EFTA00114682 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 MR. : So, somebody, somebody 2 has told us, doesn't make any sense that 3 there's an NC there. Do you agree with that? 4 : I agree 100% there. It 5 would have said, it would have said nothing. 6 It would have said nothing, because custody 7 don't have that, NC stands for non-custody on 8 the roster. 9 MR. : The fact that this was 10 printed out on June 2, 2021, would that auto 11 : That's because I was a 12 counselor already. 13 MR. : -- would that populate to 14 non-custody automatically? 15 : Yes. Because I'm non- 16 custody now. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 : I'm a counselor. 19 MR. : So, when we printed out, 20 that date, these things would be automatically 21 generated with your name, NC. 22 : Uh-huh. Yes. 23 MR. : So would that be why then 24 (Indiscernible *02:33:27). 25 : That's probably why. I EFTA00114683 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 didn't see that this was printed this year. 2 MR. : Okay. All right. So, it 3 would be printed, based upon what you are at 4 the time, but you were custody at the time? 5 : I was a lieutenant at the 6 time. Yeah. 7 MR. : All right. So, okay. So 8 we can't put any real credence to NCs when we 9 see the, based upon the print (Indiscernible 10 *02:33:48). 11 : No, after, like, I became a 12 counselor, February 2020. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 : So I have only been non- 15 custody since then. 16 MR. : All right. And then this 17 one was just an email, saying that I was, this 18 is just confirming that, it's just an email 19 that you sent to someone, Cynthia Adorno? 20 : Adorno. 21 MR. : A-D-O-R-N-O, just saying 22 that you were Activities, and had to go to the 23 hospital to make sure staff weren't bothered by 24 media, while his body was there. "Today, I am 25 DW Ops." EFTA00114684 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2_ 1 : Day watch. 2 MR. : Day watch Ops. Okay. 3 That was just in case you had any kind of need 4 for recollection that you actually worked those 5 days. Here you go. So, here is something, 6 just saying that, so, in his first suicide 7 attempt, correct, do you remember who his 8 cellmate was at the time? 9 : He was that cop guy. I 10 forgot his name. 11 MR. : Tartaglione. 12 : Tartaglione. 13 MR. : T-A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-N-E. 14 : Yeah. 15 MR. : So, there's an email 16 dated August 7, 2019, to all the lieutenants, 17 saying that Tartaglione was going to be in 18 attorney conference on Friday, August 2, 2009. 19 Now, (Indiscernible *02:35:03) Epstein was in 20 there at the same time. Do you know if they 21 would have had any interaction in there? 22 Together? 23 : No. They were in separate 24 rooms. 25 MR. : So they would not have EFTA00114685 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 gone together? 2 : Unless, like, when they were 3 going in, or coming out. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 : If they were coming in or 6 out at the same time, but otherwise, they're in 7 two separate rooms. 8 MR. : So they're not even 9 seeing each other or interacting? 10 : No. They will be in, and as 11 a matter of fact, they're SHU inmates, so the 12 SHU inmates, the SHU cell, the SHU cells, the 13 attorney conference cells for the SHU inmates 14 are the same as the SHU cells. They're locked 15 in with their attorney. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : So, they couldn't even, 18 like, come out and pass each other. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 20 initialing and dating that? 21 : Sure. 22 MR. : Did you have any 23 involvement with that initial July 23, 2019? 24 : No. 25 MR. : Have you heard any rumors EFTA00114686 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 about Tartaglione attempting to harm Epstein? 2 : No. I heard that he was 3 helping him. He is the one that notified the 4 staff that he needed help. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 : That's what I heard. 7 MR. : So, you didn't hear 8 anything about him trying to harm Epstein? 9 : On the street. 10 MR. : And what -- 11 : People talking shit. 12 MR. : Do you think -- 13 : And I'm not even talking 14 about Bureau staff. I'm talking about, you 15 know how much shit, pardon my language -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 : I know we're on camera 18 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 19 on tape here, do you know 20 how much trash I got from people that have 21 known me my whole life, and I tell them 22 straight out, I can't answer your questions. 23 I'm not going to answer your questions. 24 MR. : Right. 25 : Don't talk stupid trash to EFTA00114687 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 me. I was, like, don't, don't even go there. 2 MR. : Do you think there's any 3 validity to any kind of a claim, saying that 4 Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein? 5 : I don't know. I'm not in 6 the cell with them. 7 MR. : Okay. But from any 8 information that you have received, do you have 9 any reason to believe? 10 : No. I know, from what 11 know of Tartaglione, he's trying to beat his 12 case. He's trying to fight his case. So 13 don't think he would want to add any undue 14 thing to his case. 15 MR. : Okay. Okay, so I'm just 16 going to, so this was after the fact, on 17 Friday, August 16, 2019, the captain, 18 , sent a message to a number 19 of people, it looks like all the lieutenants, 20 to include yourself. It just says, 21 "Lieutenants, there has been a significant 22 change concerning the placement of inmates on 23 suicide watch at MCC. Starting 8/16/19, when 24 an inmate expresses intentions to physically 25 harm themself or behavior warrants placement on EFTA00114688 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 watch, please make sure the captain is notified 2 immediately by phone. If inmate companions are 3 needed to sit on the inmate, the overall 4 approving authority is the warden. Inmates 5 will no longer be able to remain on SHU bed 6 space, so there should be an initiative to have 7 adequate bed assignments available in the 8 Special Housing Unit." So, were people that 9 were attempting to harm themselves previously 10 not being referred to suicide watch, are you 11 aware? 12 : No. As a matter of fact, if 13 I, I, at one point in time, if I felt like a 14 new intake, if I was, let's say, Operations 15 Lieutenant on an off-shift, and we didn't have 16 Psychology here, if I felt they were a threat 17 to themselves, I would put them on watch, and 18 then all I would have to do is notify 19 Psychology. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 : Like, I would wake up the 22 on-duty psychologist at home and say, hey, doc, 23 I'm putting inmate Schmukatelli on observation. 24 MR. : All right. So, the only 25 change here was that the captain wanted to be EFTA00114689 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 notified? 2 : Yes. I believe so. 3 MR. : All right. And he wasn't 4 notified prior to that time, is that what he's 5 saying? 6 : He wasn't, he didn't have to 7 be. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : As long as we notified 10 Psychology. 11 MR. : Sure. So, people were, 12 it's not a change in practice. It's a change 13 in notification to the captain? 14 : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 : A lot of those things change 17 like I change socks. 18 MR. : Yeah. If you don't mind, 19 just initial and date these daily assignments, 20 then. 21 : Sure. 22 MR. : For the 9th and 10th. I 23 know we have been keeping you awhile. Just 24 want to finish up these questions. 25 : (Indiscernible *02:38:42). EFTA00114690 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2_ - 1 MR. : So what is your 2 understanding of what happened to Epstein on 3 August 9th and 10th, 2019? 4 : My understanding is that he 5 committed suicide. That he hung up. 6 MR. : Is that, you understand 7 of how he died was from suicide and hanging? 8 : That's what I understand. 9 Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 11 information with regard to any suspicious 12 activity that occurred on August 9'h or 10'h, 13 2019, leading up to the discovery of Epstein in 14 his cell? 15 : No. 16 MR. : I'm just going to go over 17 just some broad, general issues and just ask 18 you if you have any information on it. So, we 19 just talked about his first suicide attempt on 20 July 23, 2019. Are you aware if Epstein was 21 placed on suicide watch after that? 22 : I'm not sure. I'm not 100% 23 sure. I think he was placed on observation 24 after that incident. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114691 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 : If I'm not mistaken. 2 MR. : And is observation, 3 suicide watch, are they basically the same 4 thing, just a matter of, if you give your 5 clothes or not? 6 : It's a matter of the 7 clothing. Observation, they were allowed to 8 have their regular attire on, with an inmate 9 companion. Suicide watch, they were in the 10 smock and had the, like, the sleeping bag, the 11 suicide sleeping bag. 12 MR. : And that is outside of 13 the SHU, correct? 14 : That is outside of the SHU. 15 MR. : What floor is that? 16 : In the event, in the event 17 that suicide watch on second floor was 18 overbooked, overfilled, we would do suicide 19 watch in SHU, but it would be a staff member 20 watching. 21 MR. : Okay. And is it your 22 understanding, though, that Epstein was removed 23 from the SHU and placed on either suicide watch 24 or psychological observation after the initial 25 incident on July 23"I? EFTA00114692 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 : I've seen him down on 2 suicide watch and observation on the second 3 floor. 4 MR. : So, you actually did see 5 him there? 6 : Yes. That's where I fed 7 him. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 : Cause lieutenants have to 10 feed the inmates. 11 MR. : Oh, so that notation of 12 feeding on this was actually not regarding the 13 14 : It was probably, it might 15 have, it may have been in the SHU, if he was a 16 lieutenant hold at the time. But when he was 17 on observation, I have fed him down there. 18 MR. : Okay. So you had 19 interaction with him when he was actually on 20 : Yeah, basically just, as far 21 as opening the slot, handing him his food 22 trays, collecting his trash, locking the slot, 23 you okay? You okay? Okay. And, can I talk to 24 the Psychology Department? Go get the psyche. 25 That's it. EFTA00114693 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 MR. : Anything that he said to 2 you that was cause for concern? 3 : No. 4 MR. : No? Anything more than 5 can you get me this or get me that? 6 : No. That was it. 7 MR. : Okay. Do you believe 8 that Epstein was prematurely removed from 9 psychological observation or suicide watch? 10 : No. I mean, the Ph.D. 11 psychologist felt that it was appropriate. 12 They're the doctors. 13 MR. : Have you heard any rumors 14 about anyone else having any say in him being 15 removed? 16 : No. 17 MR. : Have you heard any rumor 18 about the judge calling the warden and asking 19 him to have him removed so he could continue 20 with his attorney visits? 21 : I have never heard the 22 rumor. 23 MR. : No? By anyone, streets 24 or inside or otherwise? 25 : No. EFTA00114694 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. : Okay. We already talked 2 about Reyes being removed. Although you 3 received that email the day before, that wasn't 4 something that you reviewed, so you didn't know 5 that Reyes was actually being removed from the 6 institution or transferred, correct? 7 : No. No. Yes. Yes. 8 Correct. 9 MR. : And no one told you? 10 : No. 11 MR. : Aside from that email? 12 : Aside from the email. 13 MR. : Okay. And that, again, 14 is that, oh, you already answered it. Do you 15 know anything about other falsified counts 16 being conducted in the MCC prior to August 10, 17 2019? 18 : No. 19 MR. : Do you believe that 20 counts were being conducted in the MCC, prior 21 to August 9th and 10th, 2019? 22 : I would hope so. 23 MR. : Anything about the SHU, 24 though, I mean, if they're sleeping in the SHU, 25 we have heard rumors that maybe in the SHU, EFTA00114695 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 they were sleeping a lot. Had you heard 2 anything about that, them sleeping during their 3 shifts in the SHU? 4 : What, the staff? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 : Well, all I could say is 7 this. The staff were walking around like 8 zombies. 9 MR. : Right. 10 : These guys and girls were 11 getting stuck four days a week, sometimes five 12 days a week, doing 16 hour shifts. I have 13 never in my career have seen so many write-ups 14 for officers refusing mandates. I have had to 15 write-up countless officers because they 16 refused a mandate, when I told them they had to 17 stay. And then, but at the same time, I 18 didn't, I felt bad for them. 19 MR. : Uh-huh. 20 : I really did. Because they 21 were zombies. I was a zombie. And I was only 22 getting hit, like, twice a week. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 : And I was a zombie. I'm 25 also pushing 47 now. I'm not a young kid EFTA00114696 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anymore, and some of these kids, 20 something years old, they would literally, they would be standing up and exhausted. MR. : So people are just too exhausted to do their job, is it? How, I mean, I spent time in the Marine Corps and I remember going 36, 40 hours on three hours of sleep and that was rough at 18, 19 years old. MR. : Right. : You know? Doing 16 hours, it's not human. MR. : Uh-huh. : Our bodies are not made for that. MR. : Okay. So, being that they were exhausted and people were sleeping during their shifts, especially with the focusing (Indiscernible *02:43:49) in on the SHU. Do you believe that it's likely that counts weren't being conducted prior to August 9, 2019? : I hope to God not. MR. : Okay. : I really do. I can't EFTA00114697 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 confirm nor deny it. I just hope to God not. 2 MR. : What about rounds? Do 3 you know if they were being conducted in the 4 SHU prior to that? 5 : I would hope, once again, I 6 would hope so. 7 MR. : But you're unaware for 8 both? 9 : I'm unaware. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 : I can't confirm. 12 MR. : All right. What do you 13 know about the MCC, and particularly the SHU 14 cameras not working on August 9th and 10th, 2019? 15 : I found that out when 16 everybody else did. I honestly didn't know 17 they weren't working. 18 MR. : So, during your, 19 especially on August 9th, when you were working, 20 did anyone ever notify you that the cameras 21 were not recording? 22 : No. 23 MR. : Is there any way for you 24 to have known? 25 : No. I don't know. The only EFTA00114698 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 thing, like in the lieutenant's office and in 2 control, we can see the cameras, but we don't 3 know if they're actually recording or not. 4 MR. : So, there's nothing to 5 indicate if they're recording? 6 : Like, that's kept somewhere 7 else, like in the Computer Services people. 8 MR. : Do you know at the time 9 where that was kept? 10 : I think, if I'm not 11 mistaken, there's one on 3, by the com room, 12 and I'm not sure if there is one down here on 13 1. 14 MR. : Do you know if, at the 15 time, do you know if the cameras where the 16 recording would have been kept in the SIS 17 office? 18 : Well, there's, where the 19 cameras, like, the hard drives are in the back 20 of where the com room is. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : Which is part of the whole 23 SIS shop back there. 24 MR. : So, if someone wanted to 25 knock the cameras offline and intentionally EFTA00114699 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 stop them from recording, like, where could 2 have they done that from? 3 : I'm not 100% certain. I 4 don't know if it could be done from back there 5 or not. I just know that that's where the room 6 is. 7 MR. : And do you know anything 8 about anyone knocking the cameras offline? 9 : No. I do not. 10 MR. : Have you heard any rumors 11 about that? 12 : No. 13 MR. : Do you have any kind of, 14 even theory or explanation of why the cameras 15 were not recording specifically in the SHU? 16 : No. 17 MR. : No? And you hadn't heard 18 anything about that? 19 : Not until I heard it from, 20 you know, what everybody else going on around, 21 like, yo, the cameras didn't work. The cameras 22 didn't pick anything up. And the newspapers. 23 MR. : Is that surprising to 24 you, for you to hear? 25 : No. Cause everything here EFTA00114700 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2z - 1 is gone. This building is decrepit. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 : I'm sorry. I can't put it 4 lightly. 5 MR. : Oh, no. That's why we're 6 here, is to figure out -- 7 : I've been here, listen, I've 8 been here 20 out of my 21 years on the job. 9 I'm rounding it off. I mean, I don't have 10 exactly 21 years. I've seen this place on a 11 steady decline. 12 MR. : I know. What about the 13 cameras? Weren't they all fixed? 14 : They were just recently 15 fixed. Now, the cameras are phenomenal. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 : Like, when I was a 18 lieutenant, I wished the cameras were as good 19 as they are now. You could actually see faces 20 of inmates fighting. 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 : And identify them. But 23 before that, you couldn't. 24 MR. : Who is responsible for 25 the cameras? EFTA00114701 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 : The com room. I'm sorry. 2 Not the com room. The com shop, the com techs. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : And do you know who that would have been at the time? : Who was here? I think . I think . I'm not sure of who else. MR. MR. would have remember so. MR. : So, • • : Do you know if been here at the time? : I don't remember. I don't when he started. : Okay. : He's the head of Facilities, MR. : And who is, what's his name? what? MR. • • • MR. : Who is : Right now, he is the lock shop. The Chief of the lock shop. Lock and Security -- MR. : Do you know where he would have been at the time? EFTA00114702 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 : I don't remember. I think 2 he was, was he plumbing at the time or was he 3 in the lock shop? I'm not sure. 4 MR. : Do you know if he had 5 anything to do with cameras? 6 : I'm not, I'm not 100% 7 certain. 8 MR. : So, is in charge 9 of the cameras. Who would have he reported to, 10 do you know? 11 -• 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 : Well, I think, I guess his 14 boss would be and the assistant. 15 MR. : The assistant, who? 16 : Facilities Manager. 17 MR. : All right. So, there's a 18 Facilities Manager and an Assistant Facilities 19 Manager? 20 : They are, and they're not. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 : When we're fully staffed, 23 there is usually a boss and an assistant. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 : I don't recall who it was at EFTA00114703 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 the time. 2 MR. : Do you know if Epstein 3 was in his assigned cell on August 10, 2019, 4 when he was found? 5 : I'm not 100% sure. I know 6 he was in that corner cell, that's all I know. 7 MR. : Who would be responsible, 8 if he, in the BOP database, the system, he is 9 assigned to a different cell than he is 10 actually physically located? Who would be 11 responsible for making that change within the 12 BOP? 13 : Oh, within Sentry? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 : As soon as the, basically, 16 the SHU Lieutenant would have to stay up on top 17 of that. 18 MR. : So, it's the SHU 19 Lieutenant's responsibility for that? 20 : To make sure that everything 21 is where it's supposed to be in his unit. 22 MR. : Does Ops or lieutenants 23 or anybody that visits the SHU and do rounds, 24 are they responsible at all for -- 25 : No. You're not going to EFTA00114704 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 pick up a PP30 -- 2 MR. : Sure. 3 : -- when you're making 4 rounds. Like I said, your predominant, the 5 predominant function of doing the rounds is to 6 make sure the officers are doing their job. 7 MR. : Do you have, do you know 8 if Epstein was always in that cell that you 9 described? 10 : No. Like I said, at one 11 point in time, I think he was down on H tier. 12 I do know 13 MR. : Let's say, after he 14 returned from suicide watch or psychological 15 observation, do you know if he was always 16 : I don't remember. 17 MR. : You don't remember? 18 : I don't remember. 19 MR. : Do you know if, at least 20 for the days leading up to August 9t", was he in 21 that same cell? 22 : I mean, at least a couple of 23 days, I believe, yes. I'm not 100% certain, 24 though. 25 MR. : Okay. And you mentioned, EFTA00114705 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 this will be the last of the big topics, you 2 mentioned that you knew that was 3 allowing Epstein to place a telephone call on 4 August 9, 2019? 5 : Yeah. When I came around to 6 escort him, he said, I got it. I'm going to 7 bring him up to SHU, and I'm going to give him 8 a legal call. I said, okay. 9 MR. : And do you know why he 10 was being afforded a legal call? 11 : No, I do not. 12 MR. : Especially the fact that 13 he is already in with his attorneys? 14 : And his attorney had left 15 already. I do not know. 16 MR. : Do you know if it was 17 actually a legal call that he placed? 18 : I don't know. I don't know. 19 MR. : Do you know anything 20 about it at all? 21 : Other than he brought him on 22 the elevator and that was the last I saw of 23 Epstein. 24 MR. : And did you talk to 25 about that at all after the fact? EFTA00114706 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 : No. No. 2 MR. : Did you see after 3 he returned him? 4 : No. I think he went home. 5 I think he left the building. 6 MR. 7 : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. Did you find 9 it unusual that he was being allowed to place a 10 11 : No. I mean, we have done it 12 for other inmates before, too. Like, if, let's 13 say, you know, oh, I forgot to ask my lawyer, 14 it's all about, what's the word I'm looking 15 for? Convenience. If it's not inconveniencing 16 the person or the time, or if it's going to be 17 an issue or a security issue, or something like 18 that, and you feel like doing it, you can do 19 it. There's nothing to say -- 20 MR. : What if Epstein told them 21 that he is actually not calling his lawyer, but 22 he's calling his -- 23 MR. : Mother. 24 MR. : -- mother? 25 : I don't know. EFTA00114707 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 234 1 MR. : Is that at all, do you 2 believe that to be an acceptable practice, to 3 4 : I wouldn't, I wouldn't do 5 it. If you're telling me you need a legal 6 call, you're going to call your attorney. 7 MR. : Right. 8 : I'm not going to put you on 9 with the attorney and then sit there and hear 10 you say, oh, hi, Mom. No. Cause if you tell 11 me a legal call, I'm giving you a legal call. 12 MR. : Do you know, would have 13 needed approval to allow him to place a 14 call like that? 15 : Well, you, is a unit 16 team member, and unit team would normally do 17 the legal calls for the inmates. 18 MR. : Okay. So, would have, if 19 it was a legal call they provided him, but not 20 to his legal team, to his mother, would have he 21 needed to obtain approval for that? 22 : I don't know. I'm assuming 23 yes. I don't know. I never heard of any, I 24 never heard that it was to his mom. I always, 25 he told me, I'm giving him a call. EFTA00114708 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : Okay. So that's all you 2 know about it? 3 : That's all I know about it, 4 and he got on the elevator and brought him up 5 to SHU. 6 MR. : Okay. What do you know 7 about someone else taking Epstein's life? 8 : Nothing. Except for the, 9 pardon my language, the BS rumors that you hear 10 out in the media, on social media, and in the 11 public. 12 MR. : Okay. What do you know 13 about others assisting with taking Epstein's 14 life? 15 : I don't believe that. 16 MR. : What do you, when you say 17 you don't believe it, do you know of any rumors 18 or -- 19 : No, I don't know of 20 anything, and I don't believe it. I don't, 21 there is nothing I know about it. And I have 22 seen, not just at MCC New York, you hear about 23 it throughout the Bureau. Somebody could hang 24 themselves, just leaning forward on a bed. And 25 it only takes a couple of minutes. EFTA00114709 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 MR. : So, did Epstein take his 2 own life? 3 : I believe so, yes. 4 MR. : Did Epstein act alone in 5 taking his own life? 6 : I believe so. 7 MR. : Did you have any 8 involvement with Epstein -- 9 : Absolutely not. 10 MR. : What would have prevented 11 Epstein's death, in (Indiscernible *02:52:11)? 12 : In all actuality, if he 13 really wanted to commit suicide, nothing would 14 have prevented it, because anybody that really 15 wants to kill themselves can kill themselves. 16 Epstein's cell overlooked the OIC's desk. He 17 was watching the staff. He knew when he could 18 and when he couldn't. 19 MR. : Okay. So do you think 20 that if they were actually conducting their 21 counts and rounds as they should have, would 22 have that helped in preventing the death? 23 : It could have helped, but it 24 wouldn't have totally prevented it, because it 25 just takes minutes to kill yourself. If I EFTA00114710 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 wanted to do it, I would wait for you to make 2 your round. I now know, I have 30 minutes to 3 kill myself. It only takes two or three. 4 MR. : What about the fact that 5 he was mandated to have a cellmate, and the 6 cellmate was removed and no one backfilled it? 7 Do you think that would have helped? 8 : Yes or no. Remember what I 9 told you, in 2003. That dude committed suicide 10 and he had a bunkie. 11 MR. : And then in the same 12 token, though, you said Tartaglione was the one 13 that notified them when he attempted the first 14 time. 15 : Yeah. So, like, yes and no. 16 That's why I said yes and no. Like, if that 17 inmate is asleep, and let's say that inmate is 18 a heavy sleeper, Epstein could have strung up 19 while he was asleep. 20 MR. : Okay. And then this is 21 just the last overall question that I have and 22 then I'll turn it over. What are some of the 23 systematic problems inside the MCC, and 24 specifically, the SHU that allowed for Epstein 25 to die? EFTA00114711 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 : I'm sorry. Can you just 2 restate the question? 3 MR. : So, what are some of the 4 problems in the SHU? We just talked about, 5 obviously, if they didn't conduct their rounds 6 and the counts as they should have, the SHU 7 staff -- 8 : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- and people didn't act 10 in order to get him a new cellmate, what are 11 some of the other problems, systematic 12 problems? It sounded like you may have 13 mentioned that people were too tired to work 14 (Indiscernible *02:54:04). 15 : Well, that's the only thing 16 I got. Especially at that time. Right now, 17 staffing got a little better. It got a lot 18 better, and staff got put on 12 hour shifts. 19 So, this way, they have more time off. And 20 they can't get stuck for 16s every day. Right? 21 That's now. Then, they were tired. They were 22 tired. And you also didn't, you never had a 23 regular crew. What I mean by a regular crew, 24 you never, you didn't always have the 25 consistent staff in there. And you had staff EFTA00114712 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 that were exhausted, on top of exhaustion. And 2 the SHU unit, in my opinion, always has, when I 3 was even, when I was a SHU officer back in the 4 early 2000s, that was the post. That was one 5 of the most high-profile posts in this 6 building. 7 MR. : The SHU was? 8 : SHU. Yeah. I mean, even 9 until this whole thing happened. 10 MR. : Why? 11 : We had, we had El Chapo for 12 two years. 13 MR. : Right. 14 : Without a hitch. With 15 nothing. 16 MR. : But he was also not in 17 SHU. He was in 10 South. 18 : He was in 10 South. 19 MR. : Do you believe that 20 Epstein should have been in 10 South or G tier? 21 : I mean, my personal opinion 22 really doesn't matter with the grand scope of 23 things. I'm not a decision maker. 24 MR. : Well, just with 20 years 25 at MCC, do you believe he should have -- EFTA00114713 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 : I feel he should have been 2 on 10 South. 3 MR. : Okay. And why? 4 : Because that is the Super 5 Max Unit. That's even more higher security 6 than SHU. And it's also a lot, it's easier, 7 let's say, for instance, on a staff member 8 that's totally exhausted. There's only six 9 cells up there. And you don't have to crawl up 10 and down stairs. You walk from the first cell, 11 it's like a U, almost. 12 MR. : Is it also true that 13 every cell has their own individual camera? 14 : Yes. 15 MR. : And who monitors those 16 cameras? 17 : The officer that is working 18 the unit has the screens up and, right in front 19 of his or her station and the same cameras can 20 be seen in the com room. 21 MR. : Okay. So, is anybody 22 actually monitoring in the com room? 23 : Not on the off-shifts. 24 MR. : Okay. What shifts? 25 : Day shift. EFTA00114714 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 MR. : Just day shift? 2 : There used to be, when the 3 staff was available, the night shift. But for 4 the most part, it was the day shift. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 MR. : Okay. So, but the person that's actually assigned to 10 South, and is this the same for, does the 10 South guy also review G South? The G tier cameras, as well? : I believe the cameras are in there, too. You can see them on that screen, yes. MR. : So, 10 South would watch 13 both -- 14 : Yeah. Uh-huh. 15 MR. : -- 10 South, as well as G 16 tier? 17 : I believe so. 18 MR. : And all of them have 19 cameras? 20 : I could be wrong, but I 21 believe so. 22 MR. : Okay. But you believe 23 that by placing him on 10 South, he would have 24 had more visibility? 25 : Yes. That's my personal EFTA00114715 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 opinion. 2 MR. : Okay. Is there anything 3 else that you want to add that we haven't 4 addressed? 5 : No. 6 MR. : No? 7 MR. : You have about covered 8 everything. Just a last question. Are COs 9 allowed to conduct rounds, counts by 10 themselves? 11 : If there's less than five 12 inmates. 13 MR. : If, let's say in the SHU. 14 Are they allowed to do counts by themselves? 15 : No. There's more than five 16 inmates. Ten South, if there's four inmates on 17 10 South, the officer doesn't need another 18 officer to count. 19 MR. : If they did the count by 20 themselves, is that an actual count? Is it 21 considered as a count? 22 : It's not a proper count. 23 It's not a proper count. I mean, I could 24 count, easily count 96 inmates, 100 inmates, 20 25 inmates, whatever it is, by myself. It's not EFTA00114716 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 going to be an official count unless you have a 2 back-up person. You have, the way the policy 3 works is one officer is supposed to stay at the 4 end of the range, one officer goes downrange, 5 counts the inmates, come back and that other 6 officer goes down and counts the range. And 7 then when you meet back up at the front, I got 8 15, 15, okay. Then they go to the next tier. 9 Cause I might have 15 and you might have 10 counted 14. We got to redo that count. And 11 then until we both jive, and then go to the 12 next tier, same thing, another tier, another 13 tier, whatever, how many tiers there are in the 14 unit, then we come up with our total number, 15 and that's what we call into Control. Say, 16 hey, II, and , I got 55. Fifty- 17 five is a good verbal. All right. Thank you. 18 Sign the count slip. You sign, I give it to 19 you, you sign the count slip. Send it down to 20 internal to control. 21 MR. : Nothing from me. 22 MR. : Nothing? All right. 23 Nothing else? 24 : No. 25 MR. : Any questions for us? EFTA00114717 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 : Nope. 2 MR. : All right. It is 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 currently 12:22 p.m. on Wednesday, August 4, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent , and I am turning off the recorder. EFTA00114718 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 245 EFTA00114719 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of eiorU-A-7 Marcella Conley, Transcriber EFTA00114720