EFTA00114850.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JULY 20, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00114850 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00114851 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : This is Special Agent Today is Thursday, July 15, 2021. The time is 4:03 p.m. and I've turned on the recorder. My name is I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Inspector General, New York Field Office and these are my credentials. MS. : Okay. MR. : This interview is with the Federal Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer and this interview is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Inspector General investigation. Today is July 15, 2021. The time is 4:04 p.m. This interview is being conducted at the Metropolitan Correctional Center located at 150 Park Rowed. We are in the Executive Assistant's office. Also present is DOJ OIG Senior Special Agent and CO . This interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent . Could everyone please identify themselves for the record and spell your last name. To start, I am DOJ OIG Special Agent MR. : I'm Senior Special Agent EFTA00114852 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 also 2 with the DOJ OIG. 3 MR. : Can you please state your 4 first and last name? 5 MR. : Oh, and these are my 6 credentials just so you do know. 7 MS. : Okay. I'm Correctional 8 Systems Officers S. with 9 the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Department of 10 Justice. 11 MR. : This is an official DOJ OIG 12 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffery 13 Epstein and the surrounding circumstances. You 14 are being asked to voluntarily provide answers 15 to our questions. Will you agree to a 16 voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Please review DOJ OIG form 3- 19 226/2. The form basically states, "United 20 States Department of Justice, Office of 21 Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to 22 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 23 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 24 provide information as part of an investigation 25 being conducted by the Office of Inspector EFTA00114853 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 General. This investigation is being conducted 2 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 3 as amended. Thise investigation pertains to 4 job performance failure and security failure." 5 It's in general. It has nothing to do with you 6 directly, it's in general, the investigation 7 we're doing. "This is a voluntary interview. 8 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 9 questions. No disciplinary action will be 10 taken against you if you choose not to answer 11 questions. Any statement you furnish may be 12 used as evidence in any future criminal 13 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 14 or both." The waiver states, "I understand the 15 warnings and assurances stated above and I am 16 willing to make a statement and answer 17 questions. No promises or threats have been 18 made to me or no pressure or coercion of any 19 kind has been used against me." Please review 20 the document and let me know if you understand. 21 If you do understand, please sign the document 22 where it says, "Employee signature," and print 23 your name. 24 MR. : And just for the record, 25 it doesn't basically state what you just said, EFTA00114854 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 it actually states everything that you just 2 read. 3 MR. : It states that. I used the 4 word "basically states," I shouldn't have said 5 that. 6 MS. : Okay. And I sign at employee 7 sig-. 8 MR. : It says, "Employee 9 signature," and print your name right below 10 I itthcro. 11 MR. : Oh, do you have any 12 questions on that before we go, just you can 13 totally ask (Indiscernible *00:03:35). 14 MS. : Okay. No. 15 MR. : Just, I mean, the long 16 and -- 17 MS. : Date and time? 18 MR. : -- short of it is 19 MR. : I'll put it in there. 20 MR. we can do that. But 21 then just the long and short of it is, it's 22 voluntary. You do not have to answer 23 questions. You can leave at any time. 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : That's the purpose, for EFTA00114855 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you just to -. 2 MR. : So you understand the form 3 and agree to the form. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : This is Special Agent 6 I'm signing on the signature of the Office of 7 Inspector General, Special Agent. 8 MR. : This is Senior Special 9 Agent . I'll be signing as 10 the witness, printing my name as a witness, 11 entering the date and time as July 15, 2021 at 12 4:07 p.m. and the place MCC New York. 13 MR. : Before starting the 14 interview, I'd like to place you under oath. 15 Ms. , can you please raise your right 16 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 17 nothing but the truth during this interview? 18 MS. : I do. 19 MR. : Please - you can put your 20 hand down. 21 MS. : Oh, okay. 22 MR. : Please let me know if you 23 don't understand my questions and I'll try to 24 repeat it or try to rephrase it for you. 25 MS. : Okay. EFTA00114856 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : I want to again, clarify this 2 interview is specifically regarding inmate 3 Jeffrey Epstein on August 9th and 10th, 2019. 4 I'm going to go through some background 5 questions. What is your current home address? 6 MS. : My current home address? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MS. : Why is that relevant for 9 this? 10 MR. : As part of our investi-. 11 MR. : You don't have to provide 12 that. 13 MS. : Oh yeah, I don't want to -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MS. : -- give my address. 16 MR. : If you have anything - 17 any kind of, like a FIX, card you can show us 18 just so we can verify who it is that you are? 19 MS. : You know what? I left it at 20 my desk. 21 MR. : That's okay. Do you mind 22 providing us your date of birth and your last 23 four of your social security number? 24 MS. : Yes. is my date 25 of birth and last four of my social, EFTA00114857 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : What is your highest level of education? MS. : Master's degree. MR. : Okay. In what? MS. : Inspector General investigations, fraud, waste, abuse—ef corrcction or wcorruption, organizational assessment and monitoring. MR. : You know more about this stuff than us then. MR. : Which college? MS. : John Jay. MR. : And what about bachelors? MS. : My bachelors was correctional administration. MR. : What did you do prior to working for the BOP? MR. : Ask her about where this stuff was and when she got these degrees. MR. : Okay. MS. : I got my masters in 2017. got my BA in I believe 2006. MR. : Also from John Jay-? MS. : Yes. MR. : Okay. And what - so prior to EFTA00114858 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 working for the BOP, what did you do? 2 MS. : Juvenile corrections. 3 MR. : Where? 4 MS. : Virginia. 5 MR. : Is that with the state? 6 City? 7 MS. : Yeah. State Department of 8 Juvenile Justice. 9 MR. : Was that directly before the 10 BOP? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : What years? I you don't 13 recall -. 14 MR. : They can be approximate. 15 MR. : Estimate, yeah. 16 MS. : Approximately, I think 2006 17 or `07 to 2009, when I started here. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 19 military service? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : And how long have you served 22 with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 23 MS. : Approximately now, 2009, 2019 24 is 10 years, 20, 21, going on 11 and a half 25 years. EFTA00114859 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Eleven and a half years? And when was your enter on duty date? MS. : 9/13/2009. MR. : When did you graduate from BOP training? MS. : I don't remember that. I don't -. MR. : When did you begin your career here at MCC? MS. • MR. ■ that point? MS. : March of 2011. : And what was your position at : Correctional Officer. MR. : What is your current positionempes4t-ieft? MS. : Correctional Systems Officer. MR. : And what's your regular schedule right now? MS. : 12:00 to 8:00 Monday through Friday. MR. : Do you -. MR. : What does your position entail? What is that? MS. : Receiving and discharge, movement. I deal with state risk, federal EFTA00114860 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 risk, detainers, pending charges, warrants, what else? MR. : And that's outside of custody? MS. : Yes. MR. : Okay. What is your grade level? MS. : GS-8. MR. : Eight? Okay. MS. : Uh-huh. MR. : What was your position on August 9th and 10th, 2019? MS. : I was a Correctional Systems Officer, but I was working overtime in custody. What a minutes. I don't even know what day that is. MR. : August 9th is a Friday. MS. Uh-huh. MR. : And August 10th is Saturday. I can provide you the daily assignment ics and *Se—roster -- MS. : And what -. MR. : -- for the MCC -- MS. : Okay. MR. : -- and that's for August 9th EFTA00114861 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 and 10th. If you look at it, you'll be able to 2 3 MR. : And provide her -- 4 MS. : This is two -. 5 MR. : -- provide her also her 6 timesheet. 7 MR. : Yes. Is this your timesheet 8 for the same time period? 9 MR. : Show her the columns 10 (Indiscernible *00:08:55). 11 MS. : Okay. 12 MR. : It's (Indiscernible 13 *00:08:58). 14 MS. : I normally write everything 15 on a calendar, but looks like my timesheet. 16 MR. : So, the timesheet is for 17 August 4th all the way to August 17th. For the 18 9th, where does this timesheet show that you 19 worked? 20 MS. : This - it doesn't show where 21 you're working, it just shows the hours you've 22 worked. 23 MR. : Is it coded under a certain 24 entry? 25 MR. : Well just ask her, do you EFTA00114862 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 know by looking at these documents, do you know 2 where on August 9th and August 10th you were 3 working? This is not an, "I got you," 4 whatsoever. Just like, do you recall on August 5 9th(Indiscernible *00:10:03) working? 6 MS. : Well, I know that this is a 7 custody overtime code for the overtime sheets. 8 So this is -. 9 MR. : If it doesn't state, that's 10 okay. 11 MS. : It's possible, because I do 12 I was working a lot of overtime, so. But I 13 can't recall off the top of my head. But I 14 know I did work the evening of the Epstein 15 situation, so. 16 MR. : When you say "evening."? 17 MS. : The morning he hung himself. 18 MR. : Okay. So according to the 19 August 10th schedule, find yourself on the 20 schedule? 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : What were you listed for? 23 MS. : Control one. 24 MR. : Control one. Okay. Do you 25 recall being interviewed by - recall EFTA00114863 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 interviewing with the OIG regarding the Epstein 2 investigation in 2019? 3 MS. : I remember being interviewed, 4 yes. 5 MR. : Okay. What I have is a 6 summary off a report written by the FBI. Was 7 the FBI also present? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : We did get a copy of it 10 because OIG was present for the interview also. 11 I'm going to read a portion of the interview 12 record for you. 13 MR. : Does it state when she 14 worked on August 9 and 10? That might help 15 clarify things. 16 MR. : For the 10th it does. And 17 so, I'm going to read it. As I read through 18 it, it's just summary for the record. Please 19 tell me if there's any corrections and let me 20 know -- 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. and we'll address it. 23 "Control's duties includeing monitoring the 24 activity on the ranges, answering calls from 25 COs, replying on the radio and opening doors." EFTA00114864 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. : Monitoring - you - at that time, we didn't have cameras on the ranges so you could only see the center, which is like, they consider it the MPA, multi-purpose area of the unit. You are not able to see down the actual ranges of the units, so no. I wouldn't say, "The ranges," I would say, "The multi- purpose area." MR. : Multi-purpose area of the ranges. "And ," did I pronounce it right? MS. : Uh-huh. MR. stated that no one is really moving anywhere within the institution. A count printed SENTRY. numbers the E-1 sheet is called the E-1 and it is off from the internal MCC system called Control validates all respondent from the head counts and marks an X on sheet to confirm the count. This happens for every check of every unit. are supplemented with count slips that properly filled out and stapled to the timesheet. verified to documented, E -ls are E -1 Once all head count numbers are be correct, everything is recorded and then considered to be EFTA00114865 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 a good count. began her shift on August 2 10th at 12:00 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 3 stated that Lieutenant took care of 4 the 12 o'clock count that day." I'm going to 5 pause right there. I'm going to ask you a 6 question. Do you recall coming on shift that 7 day? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Do you recall the first count 10 would be at 12:00 midnight? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : And were you in Control when 13 the count happened? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Who took the count? 16 MS. : I don't remember at that 17 time. I don't remember all this time ago, but 18 if I said the Lieutenant took the count at that 19 time, then that's who took the count, because 20 every Lieutenant is required to take a count, 21 one count per shift. 22 MR. : But you don't recall the 23 exact situation -. 24 MR. : I think what he's asking 25 was, was Lieutenant in the Control EFTA00114866 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with you? 2 MS. : At some point in time, yes, 3 she was. 4 MR. : So if she was taking the 5 count, does that mean that she's doing from 6 Control? 7 MS. : Yes, she's doing it from 8 Control. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Okay. recalled that 11 CO Thomas and this says CO Noel, but is 12 that Noel? 13 MS. : Noel. 14 MR. : "CO Noel worked in the SHU on 15 the day of the incident. stated that 16 Noel was fairly new. stated that she 17 does not pay specific attention to just one 18 individual screen during her shifts since so 19 much is going on. stated that extension 20 6468 is a number that is called for reporting 21 the count. If a Lieutenant is on the unit for 22 the count, then this is when it is considered a 23 watch call. On the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 24 watch calls, ran the counts. 25 recalled that the SHU called in the count of EFTA00114867 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 the day and that the count was accurate. 2 does not recall who called in the count 3 from the SHU but recalled that the number was 4 72. stated that there are folders that 5 are filed that are compiled with count 6 verification timesheets for every day of the 7 calendar year." 8 MS. : That is correct. 9 MR. : So I asked you, on August 10 10th, you said you worked at midnight in 11 Control. 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Do you recall if you worked 14 on August 9th? 15 MS. : I probably did. I don't 16 recall that, this far from now to then, but I 17 probably most likely worked that day and if 18 it's on the roster and it's on my timesheet, 19 most likely, yes. 20 MR. : But you wouldn't happen to 21 recall if you worked in internal or R&D? 22 MS. : I know I worked R&D because 23 that's my regular position and Custody, 24 anything I did in Custody would be considered 25 overtime for me. EFTA00114868 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : Okay. So, on August 9th, by 2 based on that, it wouldn't tell - would the 3 (Indiscernible *00:15:16). 4 MS. : It did say overtime. It did 5 say overtime in internal. 6 MR. : But internal is not - is that 7 the same as R&D? 8 MS. : No. R&D, this is 9 Correctional Services. R&D is Correctional 10 Systems. Those are two different departments. 11 This is custody and R&D is non-custody. 12 MR. : So by this, were you in 13 custody? 14 MS. : Yes. I was there. 15 MR. : Okay. So you were working in 16 internal, not in R&D. 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you recall who your 19 supervisor was when you worked at the MCC on 20 August 9th and 10th? 21 MS. : I would only know by looking 22 at this roster. , Lieutenant 23 MR. : So you report only to 24 or do you report to any other COs 25 MS. : No, she's the only supervisor EFTA00114869 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on duty during that time. 2 MR. : During the night. And so 3 both days it was midnight to 8:00 a.m. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. Was she also a 6 supervisor? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Are you familiar with inmate 9 Jeffrey Epstein? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Did Jeffrey Epstein have a 12 cell mate? 13 MS. : Yes, he did. 14 MR. : Do you know who it was? 15 MS. : I don't know, but I know the 16 inmate went out to court I believe Friday and 17 he didn't come back from court. I don't know 18 if he got released from court, but he didn't 19 come back to the institution that day. 20 MR. : How do you know that? 21 MS. : Because I work in R&D. 22 MR. : So, is this from your 23 knowledge from working in R&D that day or on a 24 later date? 25 MS. : My knowledge of working in EFTA00114870 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 R&D that day. 2 MR. : So that's - okay. Because 3 according to this, you were in R&D -- 4 MS. : I was in R&D. 5 MR. : I mean, you're in 6 internal. 7 MS. : Right. But this is midnight. 8 My hours in R&D is from 12:00 to 8:00. 9 MR. : 12:00 to 8:00? So you did 10 work later in the shift -- 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : -- so that (Indiscernible 13 *00:16:56) be on the schedule at all. You're 14 not going to be on this roster. It's not going 15 to show you as 12:00 to 8:00. 16 MS. : Custody has a different 17 roster from my department roster. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : So you're not going to see my 20 department. My department hours would be that 21 - what you see on that timesheet and this is 22 considered overtime. So anything here, where 23 it says, "Additional," this is overtime because 24 you see the two shifts, the eight up here and 25 the eight at the bottom. EFTA00114871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : And that's 16 hours for the 3 day. 4 MR. : So I'm going to go back and 5 clarify. On August 9th, you worked from 6 midnight to 8:00 a.m. -- 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- and you were in internal. 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : And then after that, what was 11 your next shift? 12 MS. : That was Saturday, the next 13 day. That would be midnight the next night. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : These are all midnight 16 shifts. 17 MR. : Midnight shifts. But did you 18 work regular shifts those days? August 9th and 19 10th? 20 MS. : In my department? 21 MR. : Yeah, in R&D. 22 MS. : If it's a Friday and a 23 Thursday or a Friday and a Saturday. A 24 Saturday, I wouldn't be in my department, no. 25 MR. : What about Friday? EFTA00114872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 MS. : Friday I'm in my department, 2 yes, because my department is Monday through 3 Friday. 4 MR. : And what's your regular time? 5 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00. I believe I 6 was working 12:00 to 8:00. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : That's midnight to 8:00, 8 right? But midnight to 8:00 -. 9 MS. : No, no, no, 12:00 p.m. in the 10 afternoon -- 11 MR. : 12:00 p.m. to 8:00. 12 MS. to 8:00 p.m. 13 MR. : To 8:00 p.m. So, according 14 to this, you were in internal from - on August 15 9th, from midnight to 8:00 a.m., then there was 16 a four hour break? Are you saying there was a 17 four hour break and then you worked from 18 MS. : I'm not sure right here based 19 on this because I might have been working 2:00 20 to 10:00 because I had to do 12:00 8:00 p.m. or 21 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : So, based on this, this says, 24 "Regular base." This might have been from the 25 day shift because this says, "Regular base," so EFTA00114873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 this might have been, I worked midnight to 8:00 2 in the morning and then maybe 8:00 to 4:00 in 3 my department because I don't see no - well, I 4 don't recalled my duty hours in my department 5 at that time. 6 MR. : It's been a while. 7 MS. : I'm sorry. Yeah. 8 MR. : But to follow up though, 9 you said that you knew that Epstein's cell mate 10 had left because you were working in R&D, so 11 you probably want to follow up -- 12 MR. : Yeah. So -. 13 MR. : -- with that. 14 MS. : So we key inmates in and out 15 to court. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So that - so, Reyes, how did 18 you first come to learn that he left? 19 MS. : Because we have to key them 20 out to go to court. I mean, I don't know 21 actually at that moment that he was Epstein's 22 cell mate, but when the comment came up that 23 his bunkie, they moved his bunkie, they put him 24 in a cell by himself, and when we learned who 25 that specific inmate was, that's how I became EFTA00114874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 aware that, no, this guy went to court and he 2 was released from court, wherever he got 3 removed to. Never came back from court. 4 MR. : What do you mean they moved 5 his bunkie to a separate cell? 6 MS. : They kept saying Epstein was 7 put in a cell by himself, he didn't have a cell 8 mate. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MS. : That was not the case, he did 11 have a cell mate, but he got released from 12 court or wherever it is the Marshals took him 13 to, that he didn't come back to MCC. But off 14 the top to say I knew that that was actually 15 his cell mate, I didn't know that until we 16 became aware of who the inmate was that got 17 released and went to court, because we don't 18 know who inmate's cell mates are just by 19 working in R&D, we just know their bed 20 assignment and what unit they're coming from. 21 MR. : No, working the R&D, are you 22 familiar with something called the court list? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Was inmate Reyes's name on 25 the court list? EFTA00114875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Do you recall? 3 MS. : Yeah. Because I think that's 4 the guy we keyed out to court. 5 MR. : Okay. And what is a court 6 list? 7 MS. : A court list is something we 8 get from the Marshals. They'll send us over 9 just a roster of names of inmates to appear for 10 production to the court either going out on a 11 writes (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:13), being 12 transferred to another jail. A court list 13 consists of whatever type of movement that the 14 Marshals want the inmates for. It could be 15 appearing before a proffer to tell on somebody, 16 it could just be whatever it is that they need 17 them to appear for the court production for. 18 MR. : How do the Marshals send it 19 over? 20 MS. : They always email it or fax 21 it. 22 MR. : Who receives the email? 23 MS. : Everybody in R&D. 24 MR. : Do you recall who was working 25 in R&D that day? EFTA00114876 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : No. 2 MR. : Everybody receives it. 3 MS. : Yeah, everybody in R&D 4 receives it, but I couldn't say off the -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MS. : -- top of my head, "Oh, this 7 person worked," I don't remember who worked 8 with me that day. 9 MR. : So everybody that 10 actually is in R&D, you all get that same 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- court sheet, so it 13 doesn't matter who was working that day or not. 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : Everybody would have 16 gotten it. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Do you recall receiving that 19 email? 20 MS. : I don't recall receiving the 21 email, but I know we had a court list. 22 MR. : Who creates that court list? 23 MS. : Whoever is doing movement. 24 MR. : Okay. And what - so you just 25 mentioned all the inmates that's listed on EFTA00114877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 there anything for movement and the Marshals 2 send it over -- 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- and they email it. And 5 what do you get? 6 MR. : Email or fax you said, 7 right? 8 MS. : Email or fax. 9 MR. : Or fax. 10 MR. : Is it (Indiscernible 11 *00:22:21) 12 MS. : Well, I believe they were 13 doing both email and faxing at that time. 14 MR. : So you get both. 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And once the list comes over, 18 and who did you say creates the court list? 19 MS. : The movement officer and if 20 the movement officer is not there, whoever is 21 filling in, it might be somebody in the front 22 desk. Just whoever is in the department, 23 they'll fill out the - complete the court list, 24 put it on a call out and get it prepared so 25 overnight, the officer who is internal can pass EFTA00114878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 it out to the housing unit so the inmates are 2 aware when they wake up the next day or the 3 officer can say, "Hey, I got this inmate, I've 4 got to get him ready for court the next day." 5 MR. : Who is the movement officer? 6 MS. : I don't know if - I don't 7 know who was the movement officer at that time. 8 I don't know. 9 MR. : Okay. When do the -. 10 MR. : When you say a movement 11 officer, are you talking about control? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : I mean internal? 14 MS. : No. R&D. 15 MR. : R&D movement officer? 16 MS. : We have different position 17 yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : We have different positions 20 in R&D where everybody had a different 21 function. 22 MR. : Okay. So is the movement 23 officer in R&D basically like will go into 24 internal with (Indiscernible *00:23:21)? 25 MS. : No, they are - they are like, EFTA00114879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 they prepare the transfer orders if inmates are 2 moving out of the -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. institution. 5 MR. : So they're doing the 6 background of what the internal guy does 7 almost. 8 MS. : They don't have anything to 9 do with internal. 10 MR. : Okay. Because - okay. 11 Sorry. 12 MS. : It's - no. 13 MR. : I'm making more things 14 more (Indiscernible *00:23:38). 15 MS. : Nothing to do with internal. 16 It's just preparing inmates to move out of the 17 institution, preparing the production list for 18 inmates to - for a unit - for a list to be 19 disseminated to the housing units for the 20 officers to know what inmate has to appear in 21 court the next day. The movement officer might 22 draft up a - get a compile, like a medical 23 summary, transit order, anything that they need 24 to put together for an inmate to be released to 25 move out of the institution to be transferred. EFTA00114880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 That's what the movement officer does. 2 MR. : Great. 3 MR. : Do you recall what your 4 position was in the R&D that day? 5 MS. : I might have been R&D. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : I might have been R&D. 1 8 don't believe I was movement but I might have 9 been R&D. 10 MR. : So as R&D, what would you 11 take care of? 12 MS. : Court movement, inmates going 13 in and out, keying them in and out, getting 14 inmates down to my area to get prepared for 15 court, tracking inmates going out to the 16 hospital, keying inmates going out to the 17 hospital, keying inmates coming back. 18 Basically, I would be responsible for like 19 inmates leaving in and out of the institution 20 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : -- and preparing them to get 23 out of the institution. 24 MR. : We can take a step back. 25 When did the Marshals list normally come over? EFTA00114881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Do they send it over the night before? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : Evening before or they send 4 it the morning of? 5 MS. : The evening before. 6 MR. : Around what time? 7 MS. : I think it's always around 8 it's approximately between, I would say, maybe 9 3:00 and 5:00 or - yeah, between like 3:00 and 10 5:00, something like that. 11 MR. : Okay. And -. 12 MS. : Around that time frame. It's 13 not like a set time, it's whoever does it and 14 faxes it over and emails it. But it was about 15 maybe between 3:00 and 5:00 or 3:00 and 6:00, 16 something like that. 17 MR. : And then once R&D receives 18 it, you guys prepare a court list. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : And what does it state on the 21 court list? 22 MS. : It's just a document, like a 23 SENTRY created document that show the inmate's 24 name, his housing unit, if he has a separatee 25 (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:49) in the institution and EFTA00114882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 what time he has to come down to R&D to move 2 out for court, whether it be that he has court 3 in the a.m. or court in the p.m. 4 MR. : Okay. And would it state, 5 like, let's say if an inmate was leaving and 6 not coming back, would it state on there? 7 MS. : Yeah, it would say, "WAB," 8 but most often times, pre-trial is - because 9 they're not our inmates, they're Marshals 10 inmates, the Marshals can move them at any 11 given time and just forward us back a 12 disposition of the inmate leaving. "Inmate so 13 and so was released to Probation. Here's a cut 14 slip for you guys'r file -" - then we can go 15 ahead and key them out. But we don't key 16 inmates out WAB if they're going out to court. 17 We key them out - at that time, we were doing 18 what was considered an out count. We weren't 19 keying inmates out, we were keying them on an 20 out count so we know that we have an account of 21 who went out to court and we have an account of 22 who came back from court. 23 MR. : So are you saying that you 24 guys wouldn't remove the inmate completely from 25 the count, you would just leave them under the EFTA00114883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 out count? 2 MS. : Yes. We would only remove 3 him if prior to that list, when we got the 4 list, it says, "Transferred WAB, we're sending 5 him somewhere to Brooklyn or he's going back to 6 the state," that night before we would know 7 that. But sometimes at the spur of the moment, 8 things might arise, a judge might give a person 9 time served, he might commit him to drug 10 treatment program, Probation might come and 11 pick him up. It could be a number of things 12 that take place at court that it might be just 13 a regular court proceeding but then he gets 14 released and he doesn't come back to the 15 institution. 16 MR. : Do you recall seeing inmate 17 Efrain Reyes's name on that list? 18 MS. : If he was on that list at 19 that time, then I've seen it, but I don't 20 recall now, speaking now, but at that time, 21 yeah, if his name was on the list, yes. 22 MR. : Do you recall if his - I know 23 you said you don't recall, but by any chance, 24 would you have known if he left WAB? What does 25 WAB stand for? EFTA00114884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MS. : With all belongings, meaning 2 they're being transferred either to an air 3 lift, transferred to another BOP, transferred 4 to another state institution, that the Marshals 5 will be transferring them to. 6 MR. : And you don't recall if he 7 do you recall if his name was on as WAB on that 8 list? 9 MS. : No. I don't recall that. 10 MR. : Okay. We'll come back in a 11 little bit. The court list that you guys 12 create, who does that get sent to? 13 MS. : It doesn't get sent to - it 14 gets sent to the unit officers. We don't email 15 it out, we make hard copies and the internal 16 officer comes around at night and he gives one 17 to each housing unit. 18 MR. : Around what time? 19 MS. : Depending on - any time 20 during from midnight to 8:00 in the morning. 21 They have up until to give out that. But most 22 likely, no later than 5:00 a.m., after the 5 23 o'clock count because at that time, that's when 24 the institution is opening up after the 5:00 25 a.m. count, then the inmates will have their EFTA00114885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 breakfast and start preparing for whatever it 2 is their day entails. 3 MR. : Do you recall working that 4 morning in R&D and seeing inmate Reyes come 5 down? 6 MS. : I don't remember. 7 MR. : Okay. And when the list is 8 sent up to the units, what do they do with it? 9 MS. : The unit officers take it and 10 he views it and it just tells him who on his 11 unit has court that day. 12 MR. : Is a copy of that list 13 maintained anywhere? 14 MR. : By R&D. 15 MR. : R&D. 16 MS. : No. Because -- 17 MR. : Where do we get it? 18 MS. once we - once that list 19 is done of the day, we just shred it, we don't 20 need it. 21 MR. : What about what's used to 22 - it sounds like create the list from the 23 Marshals, can we get - can we go back to emails 24 from August 8th, I guess it would be, to get 25 that court list from August 9th? EFTA00114886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 MS. : If it's still in the system, 2 yeah, you would still - you would be able to 3 see it, yeah. 4 MR. : And you said at that 5 time, they're both fax and email so any single 6 person we could just grab an email from them if 7 it was archived? 8 MS. : Uh-huh. If it's still, you 9 know, in the system, but we don't normally keep 10 court lists. Once we done for that day, 11 everything gets shredded and we start fresh for 12 the next day. So we don't hold onto court 13 lists. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : Just something we never did. 16 The only thing we hold onto is transfer orders, 17 people that transferred out, like -. 18 MR. : So for instance, with 19 Reyes - when you say "transfer order," does 20 that also mean released or is that just 21 transferred to a different institution? 22 MS. : Transferred to a different 23 institution -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : -- because if he got released EFTA00114887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 or he got a disposition, that would be 2 something we would place in his file, why he 3 got released. You know you got to have 4 something to show that why you released this 5 inmate, that we didn't just let him walk out 6 the door, we have this document from the 7 Marshals why we released him. 8 MR. : So would Reyes have 9 file like that? 10 MS. : If it's not sent to archives 11 and this is 2021, his file would be - his file 12 is probably archived now. 13 MR. : even though-t it's like - 14 my understanding was like August 9th everything 15 was going to be, like, preserved August 9th and 16 10th. Do you know if that would create it not 17 actually be archived but actually still 18 maintained somewhere? 19 MS. : You would have to get with 20 SIS, I don't know. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 23 MR. : Do you know if that court 24 list is used to update the daily log? 25 MS. : What do you mean? EFTA00114888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 MR. : Do you know what a daily log 2 is? 3 MR. : Show her. 4 MR. : Have you ever seen that? 5 MS. : Uh-huh. This is -- 6 MR. : Is that 7 MS. -- 38. 8 MR. : It's a what? 9 MS. : We call this a PP38. 10 MR. PP38. 11 MS. : It just tracks movement of 12 who went out the institution, who went from 13 what unit to what unit, who got keyed out. 14 This is what this is. It just tracks all the 15 movement for that day. 16 MR. : Can you flip to the third 17 page for inmate Efrain Reyes. You see next to 18 it it says, "Pre-remove." Do you know what 19 that means? 20 MS. : Uh-huh. That means he was 21 removed from the institution. 22 MR. : Does that mean there's a 23 possibility that the Marshals list came over 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- with him as a WAB? EFTA00114889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MS. : Possibility. Yeah. 2 MR. : What else could it - why else 3 would you list an inmate as pre-remove? 4 MS. : We don't list them as pre- 5 remove, we just key him out as pre-remove. 6 MR. : So he was keyed out at that 7 point. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : And what time was it keyed 10 out, do you know? 11 MS. : 8:38. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : And he wouldn't be - if 13 person is going to court, what would it be 14 listed as? 15 MS. : If he's going to court on 16 this, you wouldn't see - at that time, you 17 wouldn't see that he went to court. You would 18 have to run an out count to show who was keyed 19 out to court. So, you wouldn't be able to see 20 that on this because this just tracks who came 21 into the institution, who left the institution 22 and what housing units they were transferred 23 from, whether they came out of SHU or they went 24 to SHU or they got moved from one unit, housing 25 unit, to another housing unit or if they're - EFTA00114890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 say an inmate got sentenced, this would show 2 you that he might have went from a A-pre, 3 meaning a pre-trial inmate to a hold, he might 4 have pled guilty so now he's longer a pre-trial 5 and he's waiting sentencing. So this would 6 just show you stuff like that. Or he became a 7 designated inmate and he's a BOP inmate. 8 MR. : How would you be able to see 9 the difference between an inmate that just left 10 for court and was coming back and an inmate 11 that left? 12 MR. : Or WAS. 13 MR. : WAB. 14 MS. : On this? 15 MR. : Yeah. Can you? 16 MS. : Yeah, you could just see - 17 well, you don't know, you just know that they 18 were pre-removed. So you don't know, looking 19 at this, why they were pre-removed. 20 MR. : So I guess what he means 21 though, is if someone is just going to court 22 and didn't go to court WAB versus someone who 23 went to court WAB, would they be coded 24 differently on that? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00114891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : At all? 2 MS. : At that time, we weren't - 3 the inmate went to court and he was a WAB, we 4 would key him out pre-remove or hold-remove. 5 So yes, but - I'm trying to think, what did you 6 just say. Say it again. 7 MR. : So I guess, is there a 8 differentiation, if someone is WAB, are they 9 coded as pre-remove if they're just going to 10 court and they don't have WAB next to their 11 name on that form, would it just say something 12 different, like "Court?" 13 MS. : No, you wouldn't see WAB on 14 this form. You -. 15 MR. : No, no, no, I'm not 16 saying like you would see WAB on that form 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : I'm just saying like, 19 if an inmate goes to court, are they always 20 listed as pre-remove? 21 MS. : No, they'd be hold-re-te 22 move. 23 MR. : And what's the 24 difference? So is it either pre-remove or 25 hold-remove? EFTA00114892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Or bail bond. 2 MR. : Or bail bond. And can 3 you -. 4 MS. : Or time served. 5 MR. : Okay. So, when they're 6 leaving and - so it sounds like the latter to 7 that are totally different things. But if 8 MS. : Well, no. They could be on 9 the court list and they could appear and go out 10 to court as a court and they might get ordered 11 to time served. 12 MR. : Uh-huh. 13 MS. : So, now, we have them on an 14 out count as going to court because we weren't 15 keying inmates physically out of the 16 institution, we were placing them on an out 17 count. So you would send them out to court as 18 a court, but if you got a disposition back from 19 the Marshals stating that, "Inmate so and so 20 was sentenced to time served," now you would go 21 back in the system and you would key him out, 22 time served. So it doesn't necessarily mean 23 that they could be on the court list as a WAB 24 because that doesn't always happen. Sometimes 25 they do get released straight from the EFTA00114893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 courthouse and never come back to the jail, so 2 those things do happen. 3 MR. : And that's what ha- so, 4 what we're trying to get to is, is there any 5 way by looking at that, we can determine if 6 Reyes, when he left at 8:38, had a WAB next to 7 his name. 8 MS. : Not from looking at this, no. 9 MR. : No? 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : The only way we would be 12 able to determine that is by getting that court 13 list? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : All right. And -. 16 MS. : Because the Marshals could 17 have sent something back over and said, "Inmate 18 so and so is not coming back, he's going with 19 Probation." He could have had a court 20 appearance and he could have - it could have 21 been with his probation officer and at that 22 time, the judge could have said whatever and 23 sentenced the inmate to probation. So now, 24 he's not coming back to the institution, now 25 we've got to pre-remove him. It just all EFTA00114894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 depends on what happened at court and it all 2 depends on what his status was prior to going 3 to court, what we got far as the court list. 4 So I couldn't tell you that just by looking at 5 that. 6 MR. : When the Marshals send 7 over whatever it is they send over, did they 8 have WAB on their form? 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : So, if we get one of 13 those emails, it would say WAB on it. 14 MS. : At that time, it said WAB, 15 yes. 16 MR. : Okay. So that's not 17 something that you create and write WAB, they 18 actually would have it on that email. 19 MS. : Right. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : Right. We don't create that 22 until we get their list. 23 MR. : Uh-huh. 24 MS. : Then that's - we go by what's 25 on their list and then we type it up and we EFTA00114895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 disseminate it to the housing units like that. 2 MR. : Okay. But somebody that 3 your - so, my understanding though is that not 4 everybody that goes to court is WAB. 5 MS. : That's correct. 6 MR. : And just to make sure 7 that we are understanding correctly on that, so 8 people that just go to court, would they also 9 be listed as pre-remove? 10 MS. : They could possibly be, yes. 11 MR. : Just possibly, but -. 12 MS. : It could possibly be because 13 the Marshals might call you and say, "Hey, we 14 got inmate so and so, he's not coming back, 15 he's going with the state," and they'll send us 16 a cut slip. Yeah. 17 MR. : No, that's after the fact 18 though, after they've already left? 19 MS. : That can possibly happen 20 after they left, yes. 21 MR. : So if we're looking at 22 this thing on ReyesAS (Phonetic Sp. *00:37:52) 23 where it says 8:38, is that what was entered 24 for him at 8:38 or is it that could have been 25 changed later on, the pre-remove thing? EFTA00114896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MS. : It just depends on what time 2 he went out. I don't know because it could 3 have been changed. Well, no. Well, I can't 4 tell you just by looking at this. 5 MR. : So, all right, so this 6 doesn't tell us anything? 7 MS. : It tells you that he was 8 removed from the institution. 9 MR. : At 8:38 though. 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : And I guess, so - and 12 again, I -. 13 MS. : Because at one point in time, 14 how we key inmates out now is not how we were 15 keying inmates out then. We didn't key them 16 out, we just placed them on the out count. So, 17 if we keyed them on an out count, they would 18 show off of the unit population but they would 19 still be on the institutional count. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : Now, how we key them out, 22 they're off the institutional count and they're 23 off the unit count. So when we key them out 24 now for court, they - it's like they never - 25 they're not here in the institution at all. EFTA00114897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 MR. : Okay. So for these 2 people that were on this pre-remove, does that 3 mean at 8:38, pre-remove, that he was taken off 4 of the institutional count? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : And is there - I do see a 9 few pre-removes on there though. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Is there anybody on there 12 that went to court that wasn't listed as a pre- 13 remove? 14 MS. : I don't know. 15 MR. : You can't tell by looking 16 at that? All right. So that basically doesn't 17 tell us anything about him being WAB or not. 18 MS. : Right. I can't tell you who 19 went to court. 20 MR. : Okay. We just need to 21 get that court list. 22 MR. : So just to clarify. Some of 23 this list as pre-remove can come back. 24 MS. : Can't? 25 MR. : Can, C-A-N, they could come EFTA00114898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 back to the institution. 2 MS. : If he got another charge and 3 the Marshals brough him back. 4 MR. : But - okay. So if there is 5 pre-removed, that means he's gone. He's -. 6 MS. : He's gone. 7 MR. : He's gone. 8 MS. : Right. 9 MR. : And he's not expected to 10 come back? 11 MS. : Correct. 12 MR. : Okay. All right. I did 13 miss that. All right. So when you list them 14 as pre-remove, he's going to court, he's not 15 expected to come back. 16 MS. : Correct. 17 MR. : So at 8:38, Reyes was 18 gone and not expected to return. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Now, is the 21 Marshals supposed to send over a confirmation 22 that he's not coming back? Because you 23 mentioned something about themy being keyed as 24 something different when they are officially 25 gone, like they're off the books. EFTA00114899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 MS. : No, this would be officially 2 off the books, a pre-remove. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : But what the question was, 5 would I know at this time, was he a WAB, I 6 would only know that if I looked at the court 7 list at that time, then I can determine that, 8 "Okay, yeah, we keyed him out that way because 9 he was leaving with all his belongings," Or, 10 "No, we keyed him out that way because we got a 11 disposition later and stated that he wasn't 12 coming back." I can't just say, just by 13 looking at this, "Oh, well, we keyed him out 14 that way because he was a WAB." Now, I can 15 look at this GCT release and this full term 16 release or this treaty transfer and tell you 17 that these were guys that were getting full 18 term release from the jail and they were not 19 coming back. But - and I can also say that 20 he's not coming back, but I can't tell you why 21 he was pre-removed. I don't know the 22 circumstances of why he was pre-removed. I 23 would have to go back to his folder, look in 24 his folder, pull up his documents of why we 25 keyed him out. I can't just say, "Oh, yeah, EFTA00114900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 because he left with all his belongings, oh, it 2 was a court -" - I can't 3 MR. : So you can't tell that, 4 but you can tell 8:38 he left and was not 5 expected to return. 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. So that's 8 basically the same thing. So, anybody that 9 knew that Reyes was gone at 8:38, like he was, 10 knew very unlikely to return. 11 MS. : Everybody don't have - 12 everybody doesn't look at this. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : So, if you don't have a 15 reason to look at this, you're not going to 16 look at this and everybody -. 17 MR. : But anybody that had the 18 - whatever reason you used to code him out like 19 that, they would have had that court list and 20 they would have had the same - they would have 21 known the reason why he was leaving though, 22 correct? 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : And that he wasn't 25 expected to return? EFTA00114901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Right. 2 MR. : So, okay. So not 3 specifically that document, but what you used 4 to key him out, they would know. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : so, okay. So, based upon 7 the fact that he was pre-removed by R&D, for 8 instance, the unit he came from, the Special 9 Housing Unit, they should have known he left 10 and was very likely not returning. 11 MS. : They wouldn't know that. The 12 officers on the unit would not know that. 13 MR. : Even if they had the 14 court list and that's where they're grabbing 15 him from? 16 MS. : If the - let me tell you 17 something. I'm trying to figure out how to say 18 this. Everybody that reads a document, do not 19 know what they're reading. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : Everybody that pulls up 22 SENTRY, does not know how to read a SENTRY 23 document. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MS. : So I can't say, "Yes," EFTA00114902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 they should know that or, "No." 2 MR. : If they knew how to read 3 the court list, they would know. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Got you. 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : Yeah, you can't certainly 8 can't say he knew that because you don't even 9 know who we're talking about. 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : But I'm just saying, like 12 the information would have been on there if 13 they knew how to interpret it. 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : we might have covered this 17 already, but if we wanted to go back and 18 retrieve that court document, like get a copy, 19 what's the best way we can do it? 20 MS. : You probably need to get with 21 the Marshals because they're the ones that 22 create that list that they sent to us in order 23 for production. 24 MR. : Are you aware if they retain 25 it or not? EFTA00114903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 MS. : I don't know nothing about 2 what they do with their -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. documents. 5 MR. : No problem. 6 MR. : No, well, she said that 7 it's emailed to everybody -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- so. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Now, after reviewing that, do 12 you know if that daily log - if the court 13 document, the court list is used to update the 14 Lieutenant's log? 15 MS. : There's - yeah, yeah. 16 MR. : And the daily log. 17 MS. : Right. 18 MR. : Okay. We covered this. And 19 the daily log, the entries that are made on it, 20 is it made at the time that it's keyed in or is 21 it - can it be edited later? 22 MS. : When you say "edited," what 23 do you mean? 24 MR. : Can someone go in a couple 25 hours later and key in saying that, "Hey, EFTA00114904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 listen, this person left at 8:38." 2 MS. : I don't think so because 3 everybody that actually - you have a certain 4 time frame to key inmates in and you have 5 certain time frame to key inmates out. 6 MR. : And what's the time frame? 7 MS. : If inmates - but sometimes in 8 R&D, we don't always get to sit down at the 9 computer right then and there and key them out, 10 because we're dealing with the Marshals, 11 they're walking out with one guy, we still have 12 somebody else we might have to strip out. 13 We're still dealing with this, we're dealing 14 with the phone. When an inmate is being 15 released, you're supposed to key them out right 16 then and there, but you have up to a minimum of 17 at least, I think it's an hour or two hours, to 18 key somebody in that's coming in the 19 institution. But, like I said, just looking at 20 this, it just tells you the time he was keyed 21 out. I don't know if he was picked up earlier 22 and already taken to the courthouse, then he 23 was keyed out, pre-removed after, I couldn't - 24 I can't answer that. I don't know. It's not - 25 I can't answer that. EFTA00114905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 MR. : Now thinking back about the 2 possibility that you were working in R&D that 3 day -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- do you recall if he was 6 removed or not that day and what time he was 7 removed? 8 MS. : I don't recall. I just know 9 that when they talked about the inmate, they 10 brought up the inmate and that's when, you 11 know, we realized, "Oh, that was the guy that 12 went to court and didn't come back." 13 MR. : Where can the daily log be 14 found or accessed? 15 MS. : This? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MS. : SENTRY. 18 MR. : And who would have access to 19 it? 20 MS. : Mainly everybody in the 21 institution. 22 MR. : Everyone can access it. Card 23 everyone make the changes on it? 24 MS. : No, you can't make changes on 25 this. EFTA00114906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : Who can make changes on that? 2 MS. : You cannot make changes to 3 this. 4 MR. : So, that is basically the 5 keyed in information. 6 MS. : This is like a tracker. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : It just shows you all the 9 moves and when it was moved - when the person 10 was moved. So this, you cannot just change. 11 Only thing you can do is put in what you want. 12 It's just a log, it just pulls up a log. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : So this is not nothing you 15 can change, no. 16 MR. : What about the Lieutenant's 17 log? Who would have access to that? 18 MS. : The Lieutenants. 19 MR. : Does anyone else have access? 20 MS. : Maybe the Captain. 21 MR. : Where can it be accessed 22 from? 23 MS. : The Lieutenant's office. 24 MR. : Can it be accessed from 25 Control? EFTA00114907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 MS. : I don't know about now, but 2 at that time, no. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if you 4 reviewed the daily log that day? 5 MS. : No, I don't remember. 6 MR. : And based on that, it shows 7 inmate Reyes is pre-remove. As per your 8 understanding, that means that he left the 9 institution and he's not coming back. 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : Okay. Do you utilize the 12 daily log as part of your job every day? 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : And how do you utilize it? 15 MS. : To make sure I key the inmate 16 out that's out of the institution. 116o account 17 for how many inmates I keyed out. That's what 18 I use it for in R&D. 19 MR. : Okay. And you're not sure 20 what shift you worked but you believe that you 21 worked in R&D between 8:00 and 4:00 or 12:00 22 and 8:00? 23 MS. : 8:00 to 4:00 or maybe - I was 24 only working two shifts at that time. I'm 25 doing 12:00 to 8:00 now. But it might have EFTA00114908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 been 8:00 to 4:00 or 2:00 to 10:00. One of 2 those two hours. Between those two shifts. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Because at one point, I only 5 strictly worked the evening shift, so. 6 MR. : When inmates leave through 7 R&D, do you normally see them leaving through 8 R&D? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : Do you recall having a 11 conversation with Reyes at all? 12 MS. : I couldn't tell you if I 13 spoke to that man or not. I speak to so many 14 inmates, I don't know. 15 MR. : Well, the better question is, 16 if you (Indiscernible *00:48:06) -. 17 MS. : I couldn't even tell you what 18 he looks like. 19 MR. : That's my next question. So 20 you wouldn't happen to know who Reyes - what -. 21 MS. : I would only know who he is 22 by ID-ing him, his name and his number and his 23 ID card when he comes on down. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : There's so many inmates in EFTA00114909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 here. I don't know. 2 MR. : Now when did you become aware 3 of Reyes being moved from the MCC? Officially 4 become aware. 5 MS. : I think when he spoke about - 6 when they - when it was, you know, rumored that 7 the inmate, "Oh, they put him in a cell by 8 himself," and when I heard about that, you 9 know, it was like, "Oh, well, no, his actual, 10 his bunkie just didn't come back from court." 11 MR. : When did you hear about this? 12 Was it the same day? Was it in the evening? 13 MS. : No, it was around the time of 14 when all the commotion was going on after his 15 passing. 16 MR. : So this is the next day. 17 MS. : Pretty much, yeah. 18 MR. : Do you recall if there was 19 any conversation in regards to -. 20 MR. : What is the day of his 21 passing, the day after August 9th I think is 22 what you mean. Is that what you mean? 23 MS. : No, like, during the time he 24 passed, you know. You know, a lot of people 25 were saying, speculating though, he was a EFTA00114910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 suicidal person, he was placed in a cell by 2 himself and that's when, you know, it was like, 3 "No, well, he did have a bunkie." His cell 4 mate went out to court and that's when we all 5 became aware of, you know, who his cell mate 6 was. 7 MR. : And what conversations 8 were had with regards to the cell mate and 9 leaving for court and not coming back at that 10 time? 11 MS. : I don't think anyone was 12 pretty much aware that that was his cell mate 13 that didn't come back, so I don't - it was just 14 that the conversation was, "Oh, he was placed 15 in a cell by himself," That was what was 16 speculated. 17 MR. : Now, working in R&D, when 18 inmates do not come back from court, does R&D 19 then notify custody that these people didn't 20 come back? How does that work? 21 MS. : The Control Center tracks who 22 got keyed out. The Lieutenant, they'll track 23 who got keyed out and that's primarily it. 24 MR. : So R&D never contacts 25 either Control or the Housing Unit or the EFTA00114911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 Lieutenant saying, "Hey, these are people that 2 went out and these are people that came back. 3 These people are not coming back." 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : So R&D would not have 6 notified, for instance, the SHU Saying Reyes 7 didn't come back? 8 MS. : They would be - not unless 9 they called us to say they had a bad count or 10 they had a miscount or something or maybe the 11 inmate left to court and didn't come back, but 12 no. 13 MR. : Okay. Because they - a 14 lot of people have told us they usually get 15 calls from R&D saying, "Hey, this guy didn't 16 come back." That's -. 17 MS. : There are times that we do - 18 like if an inmate has property upstairs, we 19 might say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming 20 back, pack up his property." 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : There have been times, yes. 23 MR. : But in this case, with 24 him being pre-removed, there would have been no 25 notification that would have been made by R&D EFTA00114912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 saying, "He didn't come back?" 2 MS. : Not if we didn't need to, no. 3 MR. : No? So it would only be 4 a need be basis, not - because a lot of them 5 were saying, like, "Hey, he was pre-removed but 6 we don't know if he's actually, you know, 7 definitely removed and not coming back until 8 about 4:00 p.m. 9 MS. : Right. That is true. And 10 not even 4:00 p.m. because there'sc aro times 11 that the judges, the courts are late. Some 12 inmates don't come back until 7:00, 8 o'clock 13 at night. 14 MR. : Well, they did clarify 15 that. They said, "Usually until 4:00 p.m. and 16 as late as 8:00 p.m." 17 MS. : Right. 18 MR. : But in those instances 19 though, R&D doesn't contact whomever and say, 20 "Hey, this guy didn't come back." Or is it -. 21 MS. : The only people that would 22 keep track of that would be the Control Center 23 and the Lieutenant's office. 24 MR. : Okay, so -. 25 MS. : You know, we key them out and EFTA00114913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 whatever we key out, we send down to the 2 Control Center so the Control Center has a copy 3 of who was keyed out and they kind of go in the 4 system and check and see if the inmates were 5 keyed out. It's like a checks and balance for 6 the institution because you might have an 7 inmate on the list showing that he left, but 8 he's not keyed out of the system. So there's 9 supposed to be like a checks and balance for us 10 upstairs as well. 11 MR. : Okay. So, when people 12 argue that they didn't know that Reyes wasn't 13 definitely coming back, how do they determine 14 and at what point do they determine, "He's not 15 back, Epstein needs a new cell mate?" 16 MS. : If they don't know he needs a 17 cell mate, nobody would know, nobody would -. 18 MR. : But if they know he needs 19 a cell mate, at what point do they say, "Yeah, 20 Reyes isn't back, we need to get him a new cell 21 mate?" 22 MS. : I couldn't tell you because 23 you don't know if that inmate - if you don't 24 know that inmate is coming back, you don't know 25 to say, "Hey, so and so needs a cell mate." EFTA00114914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 And if you don't know, you just don't know. 2 MR. : Okay. So, at what point 3 should Control then at some point though call 4 the SHU And say, "Reyes isn't coming back?" 5 MS. : If the count is not bad, they 6 wouldn't know to call them and say - they 7 wouldn't say that, no. 8 MR. : So the SHU very well may 9 never have been contacted or would have been 10 contacted saying, "Reyes isn't coming back, 11 consider him gone." 12 MS. : Correct. 13 MR. : Okay. So they would have 14 only known that based upon doing rounds and 15 counts is what you're saying? 16 MS. : Right. But if they don't 17 know that he needs a cell mate, because I don't 18 believe there was any notification that another 19 individual had to be placed in a cell with him 20 so, nobody would know that. Even if you are 21 making rounds and counting your unit, you 22 wouldn't know that we need - if there's no 23 notification. 24 MR. : Well, notifications were 25 made and the people are saying that they passed EFTA00114915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 it along to other shifts saying, "Yes, he's 2 required to have a cell mate." However, 3 they're saying, "Reyes is gone, possibly not 4 returning. Make sure you get him a bunkie if 5 he doesn't." So it's kind of like, at what 6 point does it determine 7 MS. : Hm. 8 MR. : -- when is Reyes not 9 getting a bunkie - when is Reyes not coming 10 home, coming back. 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : We've also been told by a 13 number of people though, they say, "R&D would 14 call us to say, `Yeah, Reyes isn't coming 15 back,'" but to you, you're saying, "No, that 16 doesn't happen. We don't call SHU, we wouldn't 17 have called them to say Reyes -." 18 MS. : It's a possibility we could 19 have called, but then sometimes we don't call. 20 You know, if there's a miscount, there would be 21 no reason for us to call, we would just key the 22 inmate out. Sometimes they'll call us back and 23 say, "Hey, inmate so and so went out to court, 24 is he coming back?" Some units will call us 25 and ask. EFTA00114916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So they'll call you 2 rather than the other way around. 3 MS. : Sometimes they'll call us, 4 yep. 5 MR. : All right. 6 MS. : But the only way they'll know 7 that the inmate might - and then, because of 8 the shift change, you might have an officer 9 from these specific set of hours and then now 10 you have a new officer coming in at these 11 specific set of hours. They won't know who 12 went out to court unless they read their court 13 list or they look at their log, they probably 14 wouldn't know. And if they're doing a count 15 and their count is what it's supposed to be, 16 they won't know. 17 MR. : So you're a very unique 18 person that we're talking to as both - has both 19 sets of knowledge with the fact that you've 20 worked with custody as well as non-custody and 21 you know how these things work when people are 22 removed. If the people in the SHU knew, and 23 let's say, let's just for this example, say 24 everybody in the SHU knows 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00114917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 MR. : -- that Epstein is 2 required to have a cell mate. Reyes leaves at 3 8:30, he has a pre-removal. At what time do 4 you believe they should have reassigned a new 5 cell mate to Epstein? 6 MS. : Well, if they knew that he 7 was a pre-removal, then they would be trying to 8 work on that immediately as soon as possible. 9 MR. : So if -. 10 MS. : But that's if they knew. 11 MR. : So if they knew, let's 12 say -. 13 MS. : And if that was what was 14 required. 15 MR. : Let's say the OIC 16 absolutely knows he's WAB likely -- 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- not to return. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : Do you believe that he 21 should have immediately then started working on 22 a new cell mate? 23 MS. : He would notify the Lieutenant 24 know, "Hey, move -" - that's what he would do - 25 EFTA00114918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And if -. 2 MS. : -- if that was what was 3 required. 4 MR. : So and if their arguments 5 are, let's say the Lieutenants and the OICs are 6 arguing, "That's premature, he could always 7 return. So we pass it on to the next shift 8 saying -." 9 MS. : Well, it is premature if you 10 don't know that the inmate is not coming back. 11 MR. : In this case though, if 12 he's WAB, do you believe it's still premature? 13 MS. : No, if he is WAB, but looking 14 at this, I don't know. 15 MR. : No, no, no. 16 MS. : But -. 17 MR. : I'm just saying -- 18 MS. Uh-huh. 19 MR. -- if he was WAB. 20 MS. : If he was 21 MR. : So if the OIC is saying, 22 "Yeah, he was WAB, he had his brown paper bag, 23 he had all of his stuff." 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : And so think of that as EFTA00114919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 let's say that's what happened. 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : At that point, do you 4 think it's still premature or you think at time 5 it's appropriate? 6 MS. : No, if it was - okay. If it 7 was known that this inmate was leaving and he 8 wasn't coming back and if it was known that 9 this individual needed to have someone else in 10 the cell with him, then yes, at that time, it 11 would be required to replace or move him in a 12 cell with somebody else. So, yeah. 13 MR. : So when you're saying 14 "known" though, so, I mean, known that he's 15 WAB, so does that -. 16 MS. : Known that he's WAB and also 17 known that this individual requires a cell mate 18 at all time, cannot be housed alone. Now, 19 there are some inmates that have to rec in cell 20 alone and there are signs on their doors and 21 there are some inmates that might be required 22 to have a cell mate. But if there's no 23 notification, and I work a unit and this is not 24 my normal unit and I'm working this unit and 25 I'm just filling in here and there and I'm EFTA00114920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 working and I don't know and there's nothing 2 placed on the walls that state that or on this 3 inmate's - on the door or maybe on my 4 clipboard, I wouldn't know that. 5 MR. : No, no, no. So what I'm 6 saying, and I'm not talking about - I think 7 you're probably specifically talking about like 8 Tova and Michael Thomas. I'm talking about in 9 the morning at 8:38 a.m., prior to that time -- 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : -- they get a court list, 12 WAB, the OIC says, "Yeah, he's WAB, he's likely 13 not to return, he's got his bag, you know, I'm 14 taking him down, I'm giving him off." I know, 15 he says, "I know Epstein is required to have a 16 cell mate." 17 MS. : Oh, well, if he knows it. 18 MR. : But, is it a legitimate 19 argument in your opinion to say, "Placing 20 Epstein with a new cell mate is premature 21 because Reyes could return." Is that a valid 22 argument? 23 MS. : Well, based on what you just 24 said, knowing -- 25 MR. : With WAB and with knowing EFTA00114921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MS. : -- knowing -- 3 MR. : -- Epstein requires, 4 right. 5 MS. : -- that he's WAB, that would 6 not be premature because he's leaving. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MS. : Now, if for some reason it 9 gets canceled and they say, "Hey, we're not 10 moving this inmate, we're going to move him at 11 a later time," because those things do happen. 12 His trip - he got canceled. But knowing that 13 he's going to be leaving, I don't think that 14 that would be premature, no. 15 MR. : So if he leaves at 8:38 16 in the morning and the OIC shift ends at 2:00 17 p.m., does that - is there 18 MS. : 4:00. 19 MR. : -- would he know that 20 that trip got canceled? I guess the way I 21 would be asking, he knows the guy left at 8:38 22 WAS and, I guess, by that time, I would think 23 by 2:00 p.m., if a trip got canceled they would 24 know, correct? 25 MS. : Yeah, because the inmate EFTA00114922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 would have went back upstairs. 2 MR. : Right. So 3 MS. : He would have went back to 4 the unit. 5 MR. : -- how often do inmates 6 that go WAB and their trips don't get canceled, 7 how often do those inmates actually return? 8 MS. : Oh, they go upstairs 9 immediately. 10 MR. : No, no, no. So I'm 11 saying, if Reyes is listed as WAB and he left 12 at 8:30 in the morning, his trip didn't get 13 canceled by 2:00 p.m. because he never came 14 back upstairs. How often do the WAB inmates 15 actually come back to the institution? 16 MS. : It has happened with inmates 17 going on an airlift. The Marshals take inmates 18 all the way out of the institution and then 19 have to bring them all the way back. It has 20 happened. 21 MR. : And let's say if -- 22 MS. : On occasion. 23 MR. : -- out of 100 -- 24 MS. : I'll say -. 25 MR. : WABs. EFTA00114923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 MS. : I'll say about, if I had to 2 count, maybe about - it's happened, it's 3 happened. 4 MR. : But I mean, does it 5 happen like very random and seldomly or does it 6 happen like, ah, one out of five times this 7 happens? Or are we talking about like one out 8 100 or one of 1,000? 9 MS. : I'll say maybe like 10 out of 10 100. 11 MR. : So about 10 percent of 12 the time it does happen? 13 MS. : It has happened, yep. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. Yep. 16 MR. : So 10 percent of the 17 time? All right. 18 MS. : It has happened. 19 MR. : So then 20 MS. : It might be something with 21 the airlift, the paperwork is not right. 22 MR. : So then -- 23 MS. : The airlift 24 MR. : -- with keeping that in 25 mind that 10 percent of the time that has EFTA00114924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 happened, then do you believe that is slightly 2 a valid argument to say, "Yeah, we know that he 3 needs a new cell mate but we don't think it's 4 appropriate to do it in this shift, it should 5 be done on the next shift when we verify he's 6 in fact not coming back." 7 MS. : Yeah. I would say that is 8 appropriate. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MS. : Because you don't know. You 11 just don't know. Anything is subject to 12 change. So I would say that is appropriate. 13 MR. : Okay. Now it's different 14 with, you're saying airlift. Now we're talking 15 about pre-remove specifically -- 16 MS. : Well, airlifts -- 17 MR. : -- for court. 18 MS. -- could be pre-removed. 19 MR. : But what I'm saying is 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- it's WAB because the 22 person is going to court. 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : Nothing to do with 25 transports getting messed up. EFTA00114925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Right. 2 MR. : If this inmate is WAB 3 going to court, how often do the inmates going 4 to court WAB actually return? 5 MS. : They mostly go. 6 MR. : So is it like maybe one 7 in 100? 8 MS. : Maybe one in 100 that might 9 have came back, but most of the time they go. 10 MR. : So even one in 100 is 11 like, yeah, no, they're pretty much always 12 gone? 13 MS. : Yeah. 14 MR. : So then that argument of 15 16 MS. : It got to be something 17 drastic that they might have come back, but 18 most of the time they go. 19 MR. : So that argument that we 20 needed to wait until verification, that really 21 doesn't hold weight then if they know he was 22 going to court WAB. 23 MS. : If they know he was going to 24 court WAB, yeah. 25 MR. : Then the argument doesn't EFTA00114926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 hold weight? 2 MS. : It's a catch 22 because I've 3 seen so many things that have happened that you 4 might think somebody is gone and they bring him 5 back. 6 MR. : Sure. But it sounds like 7 8 MS. : He might get on that side and 9 something might come up in his paperwork where 10 they're like, "Uh-oh, we got a new case, we got 11 a new charge. Oh, we're not transferring him. 12 We got to sort this out." I mean, it has 13 happened where somebody has come back to the 14 jail, but most of the time, they do go. 15 MR. : And it sounds like that's 16 extremely rare 17 MS. : Yeah. 18 MR. : -- circumstance. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : All right. 21 MS. : Yeah. 22 MR. : So at that point, do you 23 think that they should have taken action 24 immediately if they knew it was WAB? 25 MR. : WAB going to court. EFTA00114927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 MR. : Going to court. Knowing the 2 fact that Epstein needed a cell mate. We know 3 Reyes left, Epstein needed a cell mate. The 4 OIC and the SHU officers knew that he needed a 5 cell mate. Should they have taken action 6 immediately? 7 MS. : Maybe they should have 8 notified their supervisor. 9 MR. : Who would they have notified 10 if this -. 11 MS. : The SHU Lieutenant and let 12 them know that, "Hey -." 13 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:03:51) 14 no SHU Lieutenant (Indiscernible *01:03:52). 15 Should it be the Ops Lieutenant (Indiscernible 16 *01:03:55) Lieutenant? 17 MS. : The Ops or the Acting 18 Lieutenant notify, "Hey, we got bunk inmate so 19 up with so and so, he can't be housed by 20 himself." 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : But, like I said, 23 communication around here is not at its best. 24 MR. : Uh-huh. 25 MS. : So what should have happened, EFTA00114928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what should have taken place, might not 2 necessarily happen because everybody doesn't 3 know everything that's going on around here. 4 MR. : Hm. 5 MS. : Everybody does not 6 communicate the way that they should, so you 7 might know it, but just because you know it, 8 you might assume I know it and we're working 9 together. Not necessarily true. 10 MR. : Sure. And yeah, we would 11 only go off of what people tell us directly -- 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : Like, "Did you know 14 this?" "Yes, I knew it." "Okay." 15 MS. : Right. 16 MR. : You know, so 17 MS. : Because it's not - like, if I 18 was working up there, that's not my normal 19 unit. If I was working up there, I would not 20 know that. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MS. : You know, if I'm coming from 23 another department and that's not my steady 24 post, I would not know that. 25 MR. : Absolutely. EFTA00114929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : So, what should happen -. 2 MR. : Yeah, and that's why 3 we're listing people like OIC, SHU Lieutenant, 4 Ops Lieutenant, Activities Lieutenant, these 5 people that -. 6 MS. : Or maybe Psychology. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MS. : You know, so it's hard to say 9 yes and no, but if, you know, someone knew, 10 then yes. But everybody that works in this 11 institution, we're all over the place 12 sometimes. We don't know, we don't know 13 everything about every unit. So that's the 14 unfortunate part. 15 MR. : Do you recall anyone calling 16 R&D looking for the status of Reyes that day? 17 MS. : I don't remember, no. I'm 18 not going - I don't remember that, no. 19 MR. : What was your question? 20 MR. DANIELS.IIIIII: Did she recall 21 anyone from the SHU calling inquiring the 22 status of Reyes that day. 23 MR. : All right. 24 MR. : Do you have anything else on 25 that topic before -. EFTA00114930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 MR. : I don't think so, we kind 2 of beat it. 3 MR. : Now, you worked Control 4 August 10th night? 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : As a CO in Control, when 7 would you be notified that an inmate is being 8 removed? 9 MS. : When would I be notified -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MS. : -- that an inmate is being 12 removed? 13 MR. : Yeah, if you're working in 14 Control. 15 MS. : Well, that would be -. 16 MR. : Well, she just said R&D 17 doesn't call them to tell them. 18 MS. : No, we give them - we send 19 them paperwork. So, you have a Control two 20 number person in the Control Center that 21 verifies our key out moves against our 22 paperwork we send them. So this is what the 23 Control Center would use as well to track -- 24 MR. : A daily log? 25 MS. : -- to track the moves and EFTA00114931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 make sure that these individuals are keyed out. 2 So, now as a Control Center Officer, you might 3 call as the number two, I mean, I said the 4 number one because the number two person does 5 it. The number two person, which is an 6 accounts and assignment person, they would call 7 - this is primarily on day watch and evening 8 watch because there's no movement on morning 9 watch, not unless it's an emergency, but you're 10 not moving nobody on morning watch. So on day 11 watch and evening watch, if you see that 12 inmates were moved around or a counselor calls 13 you in Control and say, "Hey, I'm moving inmate 14 so and so from this unit to this unit," then as 15 a Control Center Officer, what I would do, I'm 16 not going to say what everybody else would do, 17 I would call over the radio, "Hey, unit 18 officers, if you lost an inmate or you gained 19 an inmate, call Control and verify your base 20 count." And I would say - they would say, "Oh, 21 inmate so and so left and I have 87." Or, they 22 might give me a wrong count. I'm like, "No, 23 that's bad, you need to check your base count, 24 verify who left the unit." But that's what I 25 would do. But most often times, the Control EFTA00114932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 Center Officer would look at this and see who's 2 moved and verify it with an E-1 and make sure 3 everything is accurate. 4 MR. : So once they are notified, 5 what would the Control Officer update that you 6 wanted? 7 MS. : We have what we call the 8 running board. So, with a running board, you 9 have the starting base of one unit and then the 10 ending base of the unit. So if an inmate went 11 out to the hospital, might have been 86, he 12 went out to hospital, 87, he came - I mean, 85, 13 he came back now, his base is back to 86. So, 14 it would be -. 15 MR. : Nothing like this. This is 16 the -- 17 MS. : Uh-huh. Yeah. 18 MR. : This is the E-1 document, is 19 this what you're talking about? 20 MS. : Uh-huh. No, that's an E-i, 21 I'm talking about a running board. It's just a 22 dummy document we create just to track all the 23 moves to like a paper to just verify the counts 24 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : -- basically checks and 2 balance. So like, if I see that this inmate 3 was moved from five, he was pre-remove, and 4 that unit count was 85, I would just write, 5 "Inmate pre-removed," and I would have a paper 6 log of what that unit count should be. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Because even my paper log 9 might be accurate but my computer log might be 10 wrong because this person might not have keyed 11 the inmate out. 12 MR. : So, let's talk about that. 13 Has there been situations where inmates get 14 moved around and not get keyed out? 15 MS. : Yeah. That has happened. 16 MR. : How does that happen? Isn't 17 there balance and checks to make sure that 18 nothing like that happens? 19 MS. : There are supposed to be 20 balance and checks, yes. But sometimes people 21 move inmates and they fail to report to maybe 22 the officer or they fail to notify the Control, 23 "I'm moving inmate from this unit to this 24 unit," or something might happen on a unit, an 25 inmate might get locked up and you're in the EFTA00114934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 Control Center, you know, you're doing whatever 2 you hear, an emergency on a unit, you don't 3 know what's going on, you don't know if the 4 inmate is going out to the hospital until 5 somebody actually physically calls you and say, 6 "Hey, I've got an inmate that's locked up 7 (Indiscernible *01:10:14)," or if you're not 8 looking at the camera, you see them moving this 9 inmate from this unit and walking him into SHU 10 and you'll call that unit, "Hey, you got one 11 locked - who got locked up?" You might call 12 the Unit Officer and ask those questions. So, 13 it has happened. 14 MR. : Whose responsibility would it 15 be if they're moving an inmate, to key it in? 16 MS. : To key it in? Depending on 17 what type of move it is. If it's a unit to 18 unit move, that would be the Unit Management, 19 Unit Team. If an inmate is getting locked up 20 from the unit and going to SHU, the Control 21 Center Officer might move that unit, move that 22 inmate from the unit to SHU or SHU might key 23 that inmate into SHU. So, 4=it just depends 24 who does it. 25 MR. : So, and it can be one of EFTA00114935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 those things that in a situation, let's say an 2 inmate gets moved. The SHU Officer can be 3 like, "Ah, no Control will do it." And Control 4 Lieutenant will be like, "No, the SHU will do 5 it." Is it one person that's actually 6 responsible to make sure that it gets keyed in? 7 MS. : Well, a lot of times things 8 happen. Like I said, around here, you might 9 have a Lieutenant go to a unit and then walk an 10 inmate out and the inmate gets locked up. Or 11 you might have an inmate that's suicidal and he 12 gets placed on suicide watch so now he's not in 13 the unit, he's in suicide watch. Or you might 14 have an inmate that was taken off of suicide 15 watch, might be put in a housing unit or SHU, 16 you don't know unless somebody notifies you 17 because when you're in the Control, you're 18 answering phones, you're looking at a keypad, 19 you might be looking up and down but you're not 20 constantly on the camera so you won't know 21 unless somebody actually notifies you and say, 22 "Hey, we're moving inmate so and so." So, a 23 lot of times, you just have to - if you got an 24 inmate that you received a new inmate, call 25 Control, verify your base because you won't EFTA00114936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 always know everything. 2 MR. : So you're saying it should 3 have been on the SHU Officer to make sure that, 4 "Hey, listen, this inmate is being moved." Did 5 she even notify Control, "Hey, listen." 6 MS. : If the officer of a unit 7 knows that his inmate got locked up, he's 8 supposed to be calling Control saying, "I've 9 got an inmate that's locked up, he went to 10 SHU." SHU now needs to be calling Control, 11 "Hey, I got one, so and so on my base count." 12 Everybody is supposed to be calling. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Everybody should be calling, 15 not just -. 16 MR. : But you did just say 17 though that they - like for instance, SHU. SHU 18 can call Control and say, "Hey, I just want to 19 verify my base, what do you got?" 20 MS. : No, they wouldn't say, "I 21 want to verify my base, what do you got?" You 22 would say, "I want to verify my base, I have 23 87." And then Control would say, "No, that's 24 good, no, that's bad." 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MS. : So now, as the officer, what 2 I would do, I would go around counting my 3 inmates in my unit and I would look at my 4 roster and see who went out to court. But 5 that's what I would do. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : I can't say what everybody 8 else would do. 9 MR. : Yeah, no, and trust me, 10 we've talked to a lot of people and everybody 11 does things differently. 12 MS. : Yes. So. 13 MR. : That's why we're trying 14 to figure out -- 15 MS. : I like knowing -- 16 MR. : -- should they -. 17 MS. : -- what I need to know on my 18 unit. I'm just nosy like that. 19 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 20 MS. : So, I want to know what's 21 going on, who is in my unit, who is coming out 22 of my unit, you know, so, I'm verifying my 23 stuff on my own. 24 MR. : Okay. No, that's a good 25 way to do it. So, are you aware of though EFTA00114938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 anybody calling, for instance, Control and 2 getting control? Somehow, however crafty that 3 they use their wordings to actually give them 4 the base count? 5 MS. : I've never heard. 6 MR. : No? 7 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 8 I know of. I'm not going to say it hasn't 9 happened, but I don't know. 10 MR. : Right, right. 11 MR. : I'm going to show you some 12 documents. Before that, any document that I 13 show you, I'm going to ask you to initial and 14 date on top. 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : You're not attesting to it, 17 it's just to show that that's a document that 18 we -- 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- showed you. 21 MS. : Right here? 22 MR. : Yeah. Just anywhere on top 23 is fine. 7/15/21. 24 MS. : I want to work with you guys. 25 MR. : Well, it sounds like you EFTA00114939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 got the qualification with those degrees. And 2 with the knowledge, we do a ton of BOP stuff. 3 MR. : This one too. Just the top. 4 MS. : It's got to be off the 5 record. 6 MR. : So, are you familiar with the 7 E-1s? Control documents? The first one that 8 I'm going to show you is this would be for 9 August 9th at 5:00 a.m. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Right? This is the E-1 12 document controlling - Control document. The 13 SHU shows 77 inmates. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Now, I'm going to show you 16 the daily log. Are you aware of the 17 Lieutenant's log? 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : Inmate movements? 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Okay. Now this is the day 22 watch, document is the day watch Lieutenant's 23 log for August 9th. We can start off, we'll 24 look at the inmate movements, it shows that -. 25 MR. : You need to start at 77 EFTA00114940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to match up with that -- 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : 5:00 a.m. 4 MR. : So, it says 77 at the 5:00 5 a.m. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : It matches up -- 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- at 77, when they did the 10 count at 8:00 a.m. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : It's still at 77 with five in 13 (Indiscernible *01:15:25). 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Now, this shows at 8:38 a.m., 16 we can see Reyes was removed. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Right? Pre-remove? 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : The count comes down to 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. -- 76. Now the next movement 23 out of the SHU that we see is at 3:15 p.m. It 24 says, "Inmate Fernandez." 25 MS. Uh-huh. Wait a minute. He -. EFTA00114941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, yes, there is a -- 2 MS. : Placed own dry cell. 3 MR. : -- confusion on that. 4 MS. : Placed on dry cell from SHU? 5 MR. : Yeah. So let's look at the - 6 so, where do you (Indiscernible *01:15:58) 7 understand, where is the dry cell? 8 MS. : I thought it was in SHU. 9 MR. : Okay. So let's look at the 10 statement up here. On top it says, "Inmate 11 Fernandez on dry cell with staff watch and 12 R&D." 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Does that clarify it for you? 15 MS. : Okay, okay. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : So at this point, inmate 19 Fernandez is removed and the count comes down 20 to -- 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : 75. 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : Okay. Now we're looking at 25 the 5:00 p.m. count for August 9th. EFTA00114942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 2 MR. : Or 4:00 p.m., sorry. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count for August 5 9th. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : Right. It shows 76 -- 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- starting. Reyes is 10 removed, right? Reyes is removed. Epstein is 11 sitting in attorney conference? 12 MS. : Uh-huh. Yes, that's right 13 here. 14 MR. : Right here? And inmate 15 Fernandez is removed. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : But it still shows 75. It 18 should have been 74. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. This is - they got 20 76. This is 4 o'clock. Did they say 21 something? 22 MR. : And this is removed inmate. 23 MR. : Keep on showing her the 24 other one though -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00114943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 MR. : -- because that's not 2 really that -- 3 MR. : Give me Fernando's. 4 MR. : -- that's not really that 5 eye opening because that's 3:15 to 4:00. Now 6 show her the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight count. 7 MR. : The next one is over here 8 too, there's some inmates that moved in and 9 out. Now let's go to the 10:00 p.m. count. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And go over the inmates 12 that - so you can follow the numbers. 13 MR. : So just look at -. 14 MS. : Pull my chair closer so I can 15 see that. 16 MR. : Yeah. Is that better? 17 MS. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Now, this is the evening 19 watch document. The other sheet now if you 20 start looking at inmate Hemmingway, 6:34 p.m., 21 he's removed from the SHU, goes to ES. 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : Right? And the next one is 24 inmate Reed gets moved from ZA to GS. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00114944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, now we lost two more 2 inmates, that's 73. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : Then we gain two inmates, the 5 SHU gains two inmates, 8:21, Felix and Williams 6 from ZA to suicide watch in the SHU. 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : Right? 9 MS. : Wait a minute. From ZA 10 MR. : Sorry, sorry. 11 MS. : No, so he came from SHU. 12 MR. : From SHU to suicide watch, so 13 now we are down to 71. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Right? And then, we have 16 Garcia. 17 MS. : Wait, I'm sorry. Hold on. 18 This is 70, that's one, that's another one, 19 (Indiscernible *01:18:24), okay, that's R&D. 20 One, two - okay, I see why it's two. Okay, 21 that's two, right? 22 MR. : That's two. And then, you 23 see -. 24 MS. : So it's the suicide watch, 25 right? EFTA00114945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. : Yeah. And you see one inmate 2 was gained -- 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- Garcia Pena's (Phonetic 5 Sp. *01:18:37) moved over. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : I'm going to show you the 8 10:00 p.m. count. 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. count on the 11 E-1, what does that show? 12 MS. : 73. 13 MR. : Okay. On the last couple of 14 pages, can you find the one for ZA? ZA would 15 be the SHU, right, the count slip? 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : What does it show? 18 MS. : 73 at 10:00. Uh-huh. 19 MR. : But 73 what? 20 MS. : Plus one. 21 MR. : What does that plus one mean? 22 MS. : That means somebody was 23 there, plus one. So it's somebody that's there 24 but he's, I guess he's not accounted for but 25 he's there. EFTA00114946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 MR. : But can you, by looking at 2 this document, can you figure out who that is? 3 MR. : So does that mean, what 4 you're saying is 73 plus one is actually 74 5 that they're thinking that's in there? 6 MS. : Uh-huh. Not unless - well, 7 normally what it is, is -. 8 MR. : Before you start asking 9 that that question, just show her the other 10 thing so that she's not going to try to figure 11 this out backwards. Let her reverse engineer 12 it. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : And then explain to her 15 what happened and then let her answer those 16 questions. 17 MR. : I'm going to show you the 18 12:00 p.m. count too. This is 12:00 a.m. 19 count, there's August 10th -- 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : 12:00 a.m. count. Now, were 22 you working in Control at that time? 23 MR. : That was when 24 you said the -- 25 MR. -: EFTA00114947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Ops Lieutenant 2 actually took the count, but you were on duty 3 at that time. 4 MR. : Do you recall that at all? 5 MS. : I don't remember at the 6 moment, but I know I worked in Control that 7 day. I know she came in there and she took one 8 count. 9 MR. : Were you present when she 10 took that count? 11 MR. : I think you start at 12 12:00 a.m. in Control, right? 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : You're 12:00 a.m. 15 MR. : 12:00 a.m. until -. 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : So, on this one 18 MR. : So by looking at that, 19 can you tell who it was that took the count? 20 That's the E-1. 21 MS. : That's somebody's signature. 22 That's not - that's somebody else. That might 23 be her signature. 24 MR. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. It might be her EFTA00114948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 signature, but that's not -- 2 MR. : So we can tell you -- 3 MS. : -- the person that prepared 4 it. 5 MR. took 6 that count. We'll just let you - so she took 7 the count. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Do you remember being 10 present that day when she was there taking the 11 count? 12 MS. : I was present, yes. 13 MR. : All right. Now show her 14 the numbers verse what the counts looks at. 15 MR. : So, E-1 shows 72. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : What does the ZA show? 18 MS. : 73. 19 MR. : You see a discrepancy? 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. : Is that a good count to you? 22 MS. : Huh-uh. 23 MR. : Do you recall 24 mentioning the fact that there was a 25 discrepancy in the count? EFTA00114949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MS. : I don't recall any of that, 2 no. 3 MR. : Do you recall her -. 4 MS. : Because I didn't prepare the 5 count, so, I didn't - if I'm the Control 6 Officer, I'm Control one, so my second body is 7 the one that's preparing the counts and taking 8 the counts and viewing the count slips with the 9 Lieutenant is not there. I'm in charge of the 10 radios, they keys, you know, like a count and 11 making sure that all my equipment is accounted 12 for, letting staff know, "Hey, we're on duty." 13 We got to do a PREApre-announcement and going 14 over equipment and stuff, all those type of 15 things, so no, I didn't - I wouldn't be aware 16 of this if I didn't prepare it, no. 17 MR. : So what happened? Was 18 figured out - and this is where 19 we were hoping you can help us a little bit. 20 And she figured out that Fernandez, who was 21 placed on dry cell at 3:15, was never keyed out 22 of the SHU. 23 MS. : Ah. 24 MR. : However, they're still 25 reporting - because he was never keyed out, EFTA00114950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 they're still reporting 73, 73, 73 -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- although there's only 4 72 inmates in the SHU. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. somehow 7 figures out, you guys don't have 73, you've got 8 72 and then either she or someone in Control or 9 whomever, keys him out. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : And so what we want to 12 know is do you remember that happening or the 13 circumstances around that? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : No, you don't? Does this 16 tell you anything about if these counts were 17 conducted? The 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. 18 and the 12:00 a.m.? 19 MS. : This just shows that this was 20 conducted. 21 MR. : No, not the E-ls, the 22 counts in the SHU. 23 MR. : Count slips. If the counts 24 were wrong. 25 MR. : So all of them are saying EFTA00114951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 73 all though there's only 72 people. 2 Fernandez leaves at 3:15. So knowing that you 3 work in SHU, you work in R&D 4 MS. Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- and also you can look 6 at the -. 7 MS. : Well -. 8 MR. : So these R&D slips show 9 that there's one person in there. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Although - 12 MS. : This is 9 -. 13 MR. : Nine south. 14 MR. : So what does that mean? So 15 R&D, so on this here, the midnight one, right? 16 MR. : And also, just please 17 take note of the checks that are all over them. 18 There's no checks on these two. So, and that's 19 the 10:00 p.m. we're looking at. So, we're 20 just trying to piece this thing together. 21 MS. : Normally, I'm just going to, 22 for my experience, when I've had to plus a one, 23 it's because it's a WITSEC inmate that we could 24 not key in because only certain individuals 25 have the authority and capacity to key those EFTA00114952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 individuals in. So, if I got an inmate in SHU 2 that's a WITSEC and staff can't key him in 3 until maybe the Unit Manager of the WITSEC Unit 4 comes in and keys him in or whatever unit team 5 of the WITSEC Unit, we would plus that one 6 because that would show that that's the body 7 that's there that we cannot account for but 8 he's there. That would have - I don't know 9 what this is. 10 MR. : Do you recognize whose 11 handwriting that is? The 9S plus one? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Do you know if it's yours 15 by chance? 16 MS. : No, that's -. 17 MR. : Definitely not yours? My 18 assumption is that was written at midnight, but 19 we still can't figure it out. That's what 20 we're still trying to figure out. We would 21 have thought that the plus one stuff would have 22 happened at the 10:00 p.m. count since we 23 believe that that's when Reyes was keyed in. 24 he was keyed in on the 10th for the 9th because 25 - not Reyes, I'm sorry, Fernandez. EFTA00114953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MS. : Normally, when a Lieutenant 2 checks off the slips, it's because they're 3 verifying that it's the unit, it's the accurate 4 count, it's the accurate date, time and staff 5 signature print of two staff members. That's 6 normally how Lieutenant would mark off a count 7 slip to verify that 8 MR. : I want to show - so does -. 9 MR. : Is that telling to you at 10 all that the fact that these aren't checked 11 off? 12 MS. : I don't know why they aren't 13 checked off. I couldn't tell you why, I don't 14 know. 15 MR. : But those plus ones, 16 aside from possibly a WITSEC type of thing, 17 would that make sense with whether it would be 18 a plus one on R&D and a plus one though on ZA? 19 MS. : Minus - not unless there - 20 the only thing I can gather is that they're 21 saying that this plus one is the inmate that's 22 still keyed to SHU but is sitting in R&D. 23 That's the only thing -. 24 MR. : And that would be my 25 assumption too. IS that they're saying there's EFTA00114954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 73 bodies in SHU plus one who's actually in 2 R&D. 3 MS. : Right. 4 MR. : But that 73 is still off 5 so I guess what the question would be is, the 6 fact that they're using the number that Control 7 has, although they only have 72 in their actual 8 housing unit. 9 MS. : Can I just -- 10 MR. : Absolutely. 11 MS. read this again. 12 MR. : It also tells us that 13 or I won't say what it tells us, but I just 14 want to know what it tells you. 15 MR. : Which one do you need? 16 MS. : Yeah, I don't see 17 MR. : It's the midnight one. 18 MS. : Okay, now you had gave me 19 you had another log. 20 MR. : The 5:00 p 21 MS. : Didn't you have two logs? 22 MR. : So there was another one, but 23 that's -. 24 MR. : There's the August 10th 25 log. Okay. EFTA00114955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : But I didn't show you the 2 August 10th. 3 MS. : No, you showed me something 4 with Lieutenant Perez. 5 MR. : I know, that's in one -- 6 MS. : Oh. 7 MR. : -- but this is evening watch. 8 MS. : Oh, okay. 9 MR. : This -. 10 MS. : Oh, that's the same. Okay. 11 MR. : Yeah. So -. 12 MS. : All right. I just want to -. 13 MR. : There's a day watch and 14 night. 15 MR. : You sure, you're getting 16 awful close. 17 MR. : I'm okay. Unless she says 18 need it. 19 MR. : Would you like a piece? 20 MS. : Okay, so his ending was 72 21 and he has this guy up here and this is 10 22 o'clock. This is the 9:00. 23 MR. : So you want the 10:00 p.m. 24 count? 25 MS. : Yeah. EFTA00114956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : Here's the 10:00 p.m. count. 2 MS. : Okay. So this is the 10 3 o'clock count. Okay, so, he's not keyed into 4 R&D. So, this is where your plus one is. So 5 he's still showing in Special Housing but he's 6 in R&D during the 10 o'clock count. So this is 7 what makes your 73. This is the 10 o'clock? 8 MR. : But is that also weird 9 though that this count cleared with an R&D 10 slip. R&D 1 that's never checked off. There's 11 nothing on the E-1 for R&D? 12 MS. : Hm, okay this is acting on 13 way before clock one. 14 MR. : Before clock one, the one 15 we initially showed you where -- 16 MS. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- he's also never keyed 18 in. And it is our beliefve, per the person who 19 said that they keyed him in, it was done after 20 midnight. 21 MS. : Hm. 22 MR. : Are you allowed to count an 23 inmate that you can't see? 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : If inmate Fernandez was moved EFTA00114957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., who should have counted him as part of their count slip? MS. : At 3:15? MR. : Yeah, he was moved at 3:15 and the 4:00 p.m. count was a SHU that should have counted him on the count slip or was it supposed to be R&D? MS. : Well, to be honest with you, because I work in R&D and I'm going to tell you what goes on, they drop inmates in there and they don't - a lot of the times, staff - that's why now we tell them, "Tell us what you're bringing inmates down here for." Because they would bring an inmate down and place that inmate in a cell. You won't know because you're busy dealing with the Marshals, you're dealing whatever movement you have going on in R&D and you won't know that they brought an inmate down in a cell. So, it could work both ways that, you know, maybe they figured they were just going to place him down there, keep him down there and then upstairs. So, it could things, but I just know maybe bring him back have been a number of from experience, inmates have been brought into my R&D that we EFTA00114958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 weren't aware of and we realized, walking 2 around R&D, "Yeah, we got an inmate in here." 3 "What is he down here for?" So -. 4 MR. : So this, for me 5 personally, the E-1 isn't as concerning on the 6 4:00 p.m., although -- 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- the count slip is. 9 Because the R&- it was so close to the 4:00 10 p.m. count. It's -- 11 MS. : So -. 12 MR. : -- to the 10:00, this is 13 where I start getting like -. 14 MS. : So, on -. 15 MR. : Because there is no R&D 16 count slip although there's an R&D count slip 17 in this one that's never checked off, but it 18 also has no E-1 notification. So that -. 19 MS. : And -. 20 MR. : And to me, it seems like 21 the count slips were created after the fact or 22 manipulated or deleted or something, I don't 23 know. 24 MS. : I don't know neither. 25 MR. : So let -. EFTA00114959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Okay. 2 MR. : As he mentions 3 MS. : Wait a minute. I just want 4 to see. So at 4 o'clock they had 75. 5 MR. : But technically at that 6 point, they were missing three inmates. Reyes 7 had gone, Fernandez was moved and Epstein was 8 sitting in attorney conference. 9 MR. : Yeah. And it doesn't -. 10 MS. : Well -. 11 MR. : For which 12 MS. : Okay, but where's attorney 13 conference? Oh, here it is. So, this is 14 attorney conference right here. This is the 15 counselor for attorney conference. 16 MR. : That would say, SATTY on top. 17 Okay. 18 MS. : Yes. So this is attorney 19 conference. 20 MR. : Right, that's the one. 21 MS. : This is all the inmates out 22 to court with Southern District. Is it? 23 MR. : So yeah, physically 24 present -- 25 MS. : So -. EFTA00114960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 MR. : -- in the SHU at 4:00 was 2 the 75 although -- 3 MS. : Right. 4 MR. : I mean 74. 5 MS. : Not (Indiscernible 6 *01:33:26). 7 MR. : Although they reported 75 8 because Fernandez -- 9 MS. : Okay, well you -- 10 MR. : -- was (Indiscernible 11 *01:33:31). 12 MS. : -- Epstein accounted for in 13 attorney conference. But this is an out count. 14 MR. : Correct. 15 MS. : And he's keyed on the out 16 count and this is what shows where he is 17 actually sitting in key two at that time so 18 this shows that he's in attorney conference. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MS. : Because he's keyed out on the 21 out count to attorney conference. And what I 22 was expressing to you guys earlier about the 23 courts, how we used to do it, (Indiscernible 24 *01:34:01) maybe it's a couple (Indiscernible 25 *01:34:02). Okay, this is what we used to do EFTA00114961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 in R&D as far as the out count. So, this would 2 say the inmate out toe court, name, register 3 number, what unit and cell he came from and how 4 many from whatever his unit is. So if we had 5 three out from that unit to court, it would be 6 three or whatever, however many numbers and 7 this is how we would - this is what would show 8 in the system that the inmate went out to court 9 that day. 10 MR. : And that's an inmate you're 11 expecting back? 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : So if Reyes is not on there, 14 does that mean that Reyes is gone and you're 15 not expecting him back? 16 MS. : Well, if he was keyed out at 17 8 - what did that say, 8:33? 18 MR. : 8:38, yeah. 19 MS. : Then he wouldn't show up on 20 this as an out count because that means he's 21 keyed out. 22 MR. : He's gone, okay. 23 MS. : Right. So -. 24 MR. : So people that are going 25 to court that are expected to come back would EFTA00114962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be on that sheet. MS. : Right. But we don't - MR. : But Reyes was not expected to come back. MS. : Right. And from the looks of this, I didn't work that shift. That wasn't my shift. MR. : Yeah, no, and we didn't believe it was. We're -. MR. : You might have left beforehand? MS. : I might have left - this might have been the day shift and I might have worked the evening shift, so I might have worked - I don't even know. But I just know that I wasn't dealing with the courts, the movement at that time, just from looking at the out count. MR. : Okay. So now that we know that the count was off over here and that the 10:00 p.m. count, according to the Lieutenant's log, says 72, but 10:00 p.m. says 73 plus one - MS. : Uh-huh. MR. : -- right, and now R&D EFTA00114963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 actually is reporting that there is an inmate 2 in there 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- except they're still 5 reporting 73 plus one. 6 MS. : Uh-huh. 7 MR. : And then at midnight - where 8 is the - midnight it says 72 over here and the 9 count slip shows 73. What does that tell you 10 about the counts that were done in the SHU? 11 MR. : What he's asking, if 12 there's only 72 people in there and they're 13 reporting 73 and it just so happened to 14 coincide. And this one - and you need to know 15 that background information. 16 MS. : Okay, so this is what - 17 MR. : They reported 73 and the 18 Ops Lieutenant who took the count, found out it 19 was actually only 72, made the change and 20 changed Reye- and keyed Fernandez out. 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : So what is asking 23 you is the fact that they reported 73 on all 24 these, does that indicate anything to you about 25 the counts if they were done or were they not EFTA00114964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 done? 2 MS. : Yeah, this looks like someone 3 wasn't paying attention because this - what 4 does this look like to you? 5 MR. : Well, that's what I was 6 going to ask. What is RA? That -. 7 MS. : RA is where that guy was 8 sitting at on dry cell. 9 MR. : Is that R&D? 10 MS. : Yes. So he was - so, because 11 it's now the 12 o'clock count and it's prior to 12 the count, they can go ahead and key him in 13 where he's actually assigned. So it seems that 14 during the 10 o'clock count, he was still keyed 15 to SHU so, what was it, plus one or something? 16 So now at 12 o'clock, because he wasn't keyed 17 there at 10 o'clock, they keyed him there now 18 before the 12 o'clock count which is correct 19 and accurate and what they should have done, 20 but now he's plus one - he's here where he 21 should be where he stated on this notification, 22 right, so that's accurate. But, if he's no 23 longer here, they should have been putting 24 what's here. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00114965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 MS. : Because he's not plus one up 2 there no more. 3 MR. : Yeah. So this one is 4 clearly that they're off. These guys though, 5 are still even with that 73 plus one, it should 6 have been 72 plus one if they're trying to say, 7 "We got one outside." It shouldn't be 73 plus 8 one. They're utilizing the same number it 9 looks like on the E-1. Somehow it seems that 10 they had that number, that base count number 11 and they knew, "We need - this is the number we 12 need to report, but also we got a plus one over 13 in R&D." 14 MS. : Right 15 MR. : So they're still off on 16 their count. Does that indicate to you that 17 they didn't actually conduct the count, they 18 just used the number that they thought they 19 were supposed to report? 20 MS. : It doesn't indicate that they 21 didn't count. 22 MR. : Because if they counted - 23 24 MS. : I -. 25 MR. : -- wouldn't they have the EFTA00114966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 right number? 2 MS. : Sometimes you can count stuff 3 4 MR. : But wouldn't it be really 5 coincidental if they miscount at the exact 6 number that they were supposed to actually 7 provide? They definitely miscounted, but 8 there's 72 people in there and they just happen 9 to miscount exactly what the E-1 shows that 10 they were supposed to count. 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : It's coincidences and the 13 fact that it happened twice in a row, what does 14 that tell you? 15 MR. : No, three times in a row. 16 MR. : Three times. 17 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 18 MR. : That's right. 19 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 20 a.m. 21 MS. : I'm not going to answer that. 22 MR. : Well, based on your 23 experience, right? You're experience of 24 working in Control, working in R&D, what do you 25 think happened? Do you think that they did the EFTA00114967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 count or not? 2 MS. : I'm not going to answer that 3 one. 4 MR. : How would have they 5 gotten that number that they were supposed to 6 report? 7 MS. : By probably just looking in 8 their log and seeing, "Okay, when you take over 9 my post, oh, we got 72 guys. One is in R&D but 10 they still got him keyed to our unit." Based 11 on maybe what someone told them. 12 MR. : And when you worked in 13 the unit at midnight, do you remember this 14 being an issue at all? Because this is where 15 we're told the Ops Lieutenant who took the 16 count, , she -- 17 MS. : She had -. 18 MR. : -- had to run around and 19 try to figure this thing out. She's the one 20 who had to like come in and say like, "Okay, 21 where - who's what, where and I can verify 22 this." Do you remember that at all? 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : Do you remember any 25 telephone calls with the SHU saying, "You got a EFTA00114968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 bad count, you got to recount?" 2 MS. : No, if she's taking the 3 count, I let her deal with it. I don't - I 4 work on whatever else. 5 MR. : Okay. So you're not 6 actually involved with her while she's doing 7 it? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 10 have been, being that you came from R&D, you 11 wouldn't have been the person that she said, 12 "Can you verify with R&D that this person is 13 there?" 14 MS. : If she asks me and that's 15 what I did then, but I don't recall that. 16 MR. : X —You don't recall -- 17 MS. : I don't know anything about 18 that. 19 MR. : -- doing that? Okay. 20 MS. Huh-uh. 21 MR. : You don't remember at ail 22 though in that specific - you do - did you 23 recall her being there at all? 24 MS. : Yeah, she was there. 25 MR. : So you remember her being EFTA00114969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in Control Center? 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : And you 4 MS. : Because she also made rounds 5 on the units. She walked around the 6 institution. 7 MR. : All right. And then as 8 far as being keyed in and out, so I guess it's 9 he BP-38, would that show when Fernandez was 10 actually keyed in and out of the system on 11 August 10th? 12 MS. : Fernandez? The guy from -. 13 MR. : So Fernandez, 3:15, who 14 was never -- 15 MS. : Oh, the -. 16 MR. : -- keyed out. He wasn't 17 keyed out. 18 MS. : The dry cell guy? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MS. : Yeah, it would show on a 38. 21 MR. : On the 38 it would 22 actually show what time? 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : And how do we get that? 25 So just make a note, we got to get the 38 for EFTA00114970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : That (Indiscernible 2 *01:41:43). 3 MS. : Since it goes back -- 4 MR. : That's the same document I 5 showed you? 6 MS. : -- only 45 days. 7 MR. : Okay. So we wouldn't 8 even be able to get it at this point? 9 Hopefully that day maintained that. 10 MS. : Well, SENTRY only goes back 11 45 days, so 12 MR. : You're talking about this 13 document? 14 MS. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Now what if they did save 16 these documents back then, would we be able to 17 see when he was keyed in? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MS. : If they saved it, yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : But if it's -- 22 MR. : And -. 23 MS. : -- not saved, it only goes 24 back 45 days. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : All right, I got. 2 MR. : So that will be very 3 telling as well if we can get that. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Before you start taking 6 everything away, there's an issue with initials 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- and dates. 10 MR. : Being that I showed you these 11 12 MR. : Just the top. 13 MR. : -- documents, same as before. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Can you just initial and date 16 the top? 17 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:42:27) 18 this one. 19 MR. : Do you know anything 20 about counts not actually being conducted at 21 this time in August of 2019? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : When you would work on 24 the custody side of the house, would you be 25 involved in things like counts? EFTA00114972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 MS. : If I'm counting a unit with 2 an officer, yeah. Or if I'm the one taking the 3 count, yes. If I'm -. 4 MR. : Did you ever do any 5 counts in the SHU? 6 MS. : I've done counts in the SHU - 7 8 MR. : You have. 9 MS. -- but -. 10 MR. : And when you were there, 11 did they actually conduct the counts? 12 MS. : When I do counts, I conduct 13 counts, yeah. 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah, but I mean, 15 I'm not talking about you, I know you did, but 16 I mean -- 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : -- the people that were 19 there with you, were they actually, you know, 20 you're supposed to have two people to count. 21 Was the other person -- 22 MS. : Well, if I -- 23 MR. : also counting? 24 MS. : -- have - if I'm working, 25 you'recah, counting, so it's no - it's not a EFTA00114973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 question. We're not even having that 2 conversation, so. 3 MR. : Did you ever have anybody 4 push back on you like, "No, no, no, we're 5 good?" 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Have you heard of people who 8 when they're starting the shift, just filling 9 out the counts slips and the round sheets and 10 be like -. 11 MR. : Ahead of time. 12 MR. : Ahead of time. 13 MS. : Well, if they're on their own 14 unit, I can't tell you what they're doing on 15 their unit. I can only tell you what I'm doing 16 on my unit, so. 17 MR. : But like in the SHU, have 18 you ever heard of like people coming in and 19 pre-filling out both count slips and round 20 sheets at the very start of their shift? 21 MS. : If they've done it, I've 22 never seen it. 23 MR. : You've never seen it? 24 MR. : Have you ever heard of people 25 doing anything like that? EFTA00114974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MS. : I've heard of it, but I don't 2 - I've never seen it. 3 MR. : Is that good practice? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Is it known that you 6 can't do that? 7 MS. : You're not supposed to do 8 that. 9 MR. : Does everyone know they 10 can't - especially if we're talking about round 11 sheets. Does everyone know that you can't go 12 and - say it goes from 8:00 a.m. until 12:00 13 p.m., you can't go in at 8:00 a.m. and write 14 out everything you did for a round all the way 15 to 12:00 p.m.? 16 MS. : You cannot do that because 17 anything can happen. An emergency can take 18 place. An inmate could get removed from your 19 unit. You can get a new guy. Any - there's a 20 number of things that could take place that you 21 are not supposed to - even your log book, pre- 22 fill out your log. 23 MR. : Is there any training 24 though that you all receive saying like, "You 25 got to do this when you're actually conducting EFTA00114975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 the rounds?" And certainly, you know, maybe 2 after the fact is okay because you already did 3 it, but beforehand -. 4 MS. : Maybe if the Lieutenant sees 5 it, you know, they might say, "Hey, you know, 6 you're not supposed to pre-fill out your count 7 slips." They might say, you know, "You can 8 fill out the date, the time, the unit," you 9 might could even fill in your name, but you're 10 not supposed to put in the actual number 11 because you don't know what can happen, so. 12 MR. : But as far (Indiscernible 13 *01:45:26) talking about counts slips, I'm 14 talking about round sheets. 15 MS. : Oh. No, you're not supposed 16 to. They always tell - they - the Lieutenants 17 always say that you're not supposed - they 18 always tell everybody that. 19 MR. : And do you know if back 20 in August 2019, they were also saying that? 21 MS. : No, I don't know about that. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MS. : I don't know -. 24 MR. : And is there any training 25 that's provided to teach people how to actually EFTA00114976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 fill out round sheets and counts slips or is it 2 supposed to be common sense? 3 MS. : Normally you're training on 4 the job as you go along, so if I'm new and, you 5 know, I'm training up under your officer, you 6 might show me certain things and people just 7 learn by asking questions and maybe another 8 officer just showing him ropes and everybody 9 don't do everything the way they're supposed to 10 do so. I might come in as a new officer and 11 you might be showing me stuff and it could be 12 completely wrong, but I'm doing what you showed 13 me because that's all I know. So, it just 14 depends on who's training who and who's showing 15 who what to do and that's pretty much it 16 because on the job, right now, we have new 17 staff training new staff. We have staff that's 18 here like a month training staff that's here a 19 week. So, the blind leading the blind. 20 MR. : So if someone makes the 21 excuse that, "No one ever told me I could do 22 that, but I saw other people filling out round 23 sheets ahead of time so that's why I did it," 24 is that an excuse do you believe? So you think 25 that that is an actual excuse to say like, EFTA00114977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 "Well, he did it, so I did it," and that makes 2 it okay? Because don't you think it's pretty 3 common sense that, no, you can't - you're 4 certifying a document saying you conducted that 5 round at that time? 6 MS. : Yes, common sense to the 7 people that think outside the box and - but 8 common sense is not common to everybody and - 9 and I'm not trying to be a smart ass -- 10 MR. : No, no, no, it's very -. 11 MS. -- you know. 12 MR. : It's a good point 13 MS. : And, you know, I've been 14 doing law enforcement for a while, you know, 15 corrections, juveniles, school safety. So, 16 I've seen things on the job that make me take 17 my job seriously. But when you have no 18 knowledge, you have no experience, no 19 correctional background, you've never been 20 placed in an environment that you felt was that 21 dangerous for you to be as mindful as you 22 should be, you don't - and then nothing 23 happens, you follow what you see everybody else 24 doing in past practice and it's not always 25 right and a lot of people don't read what EFTA00114978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 they're supposed to be doing, they just go by 2 what you tell them and what I could tell you 3 what to do, doesn't necessarily mean that 4 that's actually what you are supposed to be 5 doing. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : And if you don't read it in 8 black and white for yourself, how would you 9 know that this is actually what you should be 10 doing? And it's just a lack of training around 11 here. Staff are not being trained and that's 12 what creates a lot of our problems. We don't 13 have a bad institution, we just have a lack of 14 training, you know, and I don't think that 15 people are not willing to work, I think they 16 want to work, but it's a lack of training and 17 it's a lack of morale in the institution, so 18 think that's what the biggest problem is. 19 People are not being properly trained. So, 20 yeah, if I see you doing it, I think it's okay. 21 I'm not ever thinking, "Oh, you know what? 22 Maybe I shouldn't do that, something might 23 happen." If nothing ever really happens, so. 24 MR. : I have a few more questions 25 EFTA00114979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. -- a few more, but we can 3 come back. Some of the questions are going to 4 be redundant -- 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : -- redundant because we asked 7 the questions -- 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- so I just got to cover it. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Do you know why Reyes was 12 removed from the MCC? 13 MS. : Is that the guy that went out 14 to court? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MS. : I would only know that 17 because he went to court. But looking at that 18 document, off the top of my head, I wouldn't be 19 able to recall off the top of my head why he 20 was removed, but I just know he went out to 21 court. 22 MR. : Were you ever instructed on 23 what actions to take -. 24 MR. : Well, let's follow up 25 with that. Looking at the Lieutenant's log, EFTA00114980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 does that tell you something different? With 2 the Lieutenant's log and the BP-38? 3 MS. : You mean the PP-38. 4 MR. : Is it PP? 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : All right. I thought it 7 was like Bureau of Prisons, like BP. So it's 8 PP. 9 MR. : Somebody -. 10 MS. : PP. PP-38. 11 MR. : What does the PP stand 12 for? 13 MS. : It's a SENTRY function. I 14 don't know. Okay. Repeat your question again. 15 MR. : So looking at where it 16 says that Reyes left at -- 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- 8:38, and then as well 19 as with that document the R&D uses to key 20 people out, the PP-38. Does that tell you why 21 he would have left? 22 MS. : No, because this does not 23 necessarily tell you. It just tells you he was 24 removed out of the institution. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00114981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MS. : So, no - I mean, you just 2 know that he's gone. You don't know why he's 3 gone, you just know he left. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MS. : And same thing with that, you 6 just - you don't know why, you just know he 7 left. 8 MR. : Okay. You're talking about 9 the PP-38, right? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : How would the institution 12 know if Reyes was coming back from court? 13 MS. : R&D would know because he 14 would come back with the Marshals and we would 15 key him back in and we would send him back to 16 his unit. 17 MR. : Now, if he wasn't - now that 18 he wasn't coming back, is there any other 19 notification that comes up throughout the day 20 through R&D that he isn't coming back? 21 MS. : It would just be whatever 22 dispositions that the Marshals give us, provide 23 us with. 24 MR. : When does that disposition 25 come? EFTA00114982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 MS. : That just depends. Sometimes 2 we get it right away, sometimes they forget and 3 we got to pre-remove the inmate out because we 4 don't have nothing and we know that he went 5 with the Marshals. But sometimes we get it as 6 soon as possible and sometimes we don't get it 7 until the next day. 8 MR. : So there is a disposition 9 form that comes in afterwards. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : What is it? What does the 12 form look like? What does it state on it? 13 MS. : It's just a United States 14 Marshals form and it'll say, "Disposition of 15 - it'll be time served, maybe the judge 16 released somebody on recognizance. Just 17 whatever the judge just might - the judge might 18 have dismissed the case. Just whatever 19 happened at court is what will be - it might be 20 a bail bond. Might be a release to Probation. 21 MR. : And where is that form kept? 22 MS. : It would be in the inmate's 23 folder. 24 MR. : Do you recall seeing any 25 forms for - disposition forms for inmate Reyes? EFTA00114983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 MS. : I don't remember. 2 MR. : And what is done with 3 that information once it's received? 4 MS. : We retain it in the inmate's 5 folder and we key the inmate out and -. 6 MR. : Or is the information 7 disseminated throughout or no? 8 MS. : Do we give Control those? 9 No, we don't give Control a copy. I don't 10 think we give Control a copy of the disposition 11 form because they - we don't give them a copy 12 of it. 13 MR. : So this circles back to 14 what we talked about before. So once you find 15 out an inmate is definitively not coming back, 16 you do not contact anyone to say, "This guy 17 didn't come back." 18 MS. : We key them out and normally 19 the Control Officer, if you have a good counts 20 and assignments officer, and he's paying 21 attention, he'll say, "Oh, you guys keyed one 22 out?" We'll say, "Yeah, he's not coming back, 23 he got time served or the Marshals took him and 24 he's not coming back." 25 MR. : The R&D doesn't EFTA00114984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 proactively provide that information. 2 MS. : No, because they're supposed 3 to automatically be checking the computer to - 4 like a checks and balance, so it's something 5 that's automatic. When we have inmates going 6 out to court, we have a receipt that we give to 7 the Marshals and a copy also goes downstairs to 8 the Control Center as well, so the Control has 9 a copy of every move we do in R&D, so they get 10 a copy of that. 11 MR. : Can you recall any situations 12 where an inmate leaves for court and R&D is 13 notified, "Hey, listen, the inmate is not 14 coming back," where R&D actually called the 15 unit to let them know, "Hey, he's not coming 16 back?" 17 MS. : Yeah, we have. We have. 18 MR. : Is that because they 19 requested to be notified or is it because, is 20 that something that R&D normally does? 21 MS. : No, we might have - it might 22 have been that the inmate had property upstairs 23 and we might need him to secure the inmate's 24 property and bring it down. So, that's 25 normally sometimes why we might notify the unit EFTA00114985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 officer because sometimes the inmate, they'll 2 call back to the jail and say, "Oh, they 3 released me. I got my property upstairs." And 4 we'll call upstairs to the unit officer and 5 say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming back, 6 can you secure his property?" 7 MR. : Okay. Before he-ralleft for 8 the day on August 9th, do you recall talking to 9 any COs about Reyes leaving? 10 MS. : I don't recall that, no. 11 MR. : I know we covered this as 12 part of previous conversation, so I'm going to 13 go through it quick. 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : On August 10th when you came 16 on shift, which counts were you involved in? 17 MS. : I didn't take the counts, I 18 was number one in the Control Center. So my 19 number two person takes the counts. 20 MR. : Number two? Who was the 21 number two, do you recall? 22 MS. : Was it (Phonetic Sp. 23 *01:55:47)? 24 MR. : You can just look at that 25 for the daily assignments. EFTA00114986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : Just look at 10th, it's going 2 to be 10th. 3 MS. _: 4 MR. -: (Phonetic Sp. 5 *01:55:59). 6 MS. : He was in the Control Center 7 with me. 8 MR. : Okay. And do recall 9 taking the midnight count? 10 MS. : I believe she came and took 11 the midnight count. 12 MR. : Were you present for it? 13 MS. : I was in the Control Center - 14 15 MR. : But -. 16 MS. : -- but I wasn't focused on 17 them taking the count. I was focused on 18 countinggeteifts my equipment, accounting for my 19 equipment. 20 MR. : Do you recall any issues with 21 the count? 22 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 23 I recall. 24 MR. : And do you recall who called 25 in the count from the SHU? EFTA00114987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 MS. : Not that I can recall. 2 MR. : What about the 3:00 a.m. and 3 the 5:00 a.m.? 4 MS. : I know one of them called the 5 count in because that's the only way we can 6 clear a count. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : So I don't remember who 9 called but I know somebody did call in the 10 count. 11 MR. : Do you recall during the 12 middle of the count calling the 13 SHU, having conversation with the CO in there? 14 MS. : I don't know because a lot of 15 times they'll call downstairs when they're 16 calling in the count and she'll have short 17 conversations with the officers, so I can't say 18 whether she called them or they called her, I 19 don't know. 20 MR. : Do you recall if there was a 21 second count slip sent up for the SHU for the 22 midnight count? 23 MS. : No, I can't recall, I don't 24 know. 25 MR. : Can COs just call in the EFTA00114988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 previous number or do they have to physically 2 do the count? 3 MS. : No, they have to count. 4 MR. : Why? 5 MS. : You're counting for living, 6 breathing bodies. 7 MR. : Once the counts are done, do 8 the COs have to notify you? 9 MS. : They're supposed to call the 10 Control Center and call in their count. They 11 call the control two, which is 6468, and they 12 call in their count. 13 MR. : Do the COs fill out any 14 paperwork for the count? 15 MS. : A count slip. A count slip. 16 MR. : Think we pretty much covered 17 a lot of the other questions. Do you have 18 anything on that topic? 19 MR. : Who all has access t 20 update the E-1 document? 21 MS. : Who all has access to update 22 it? The Control Center officers. 23 MR. : When you say, "officer," 24 just the Control Center officers is what you 25 mean? EFTA00114989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 MS. : Whoever works in the Control 2 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. but a lot of times, most 5 of the officers were shifted around working 6 Control, so primarily, if you work the Control 7 Center as a counts and assignments officer, you 8 had access to printing out an E-1. All the 9 Lieutenants have access, R&D had access, but we 10 don't have access to that no more. 11 MR. : But at that point, did you 12 guys have access? 13 MS. : Yeah, because you have to 14 prepare this for the count, so yeah. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : But we don't have access 17 anymore. 18 MR. : So Control Officers, 19 Lieutenants, anyone else? 20 MS. : R&D. 21 MR. : And that anyone who has 22 worked in Control at that time, at least they 23 maintained the access for a certain amount of 24 period afterwards? 25 MS. : Yeah, Uh-huh. EFTA00114990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MR. : Do you know how long that 2 period of time was at that point? 3 MS. : I don't think - I think if 4 you had access to it, you just had access to 5 it. It don't think it was no -. 6 MR. : So, given access once, 7 you got it until -- 8 MS. Uh-huh. 9 MR. : -- they revoke it. 10 MS. : Right. Uh-huh. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : I don't think it was - yeah, 13 it was no time frame that I know of. 14 MR. : You have any other questions 15 on that? When you were in - are you aware 16 there were cameras inside the MCC on August 9th 17 and 10th? 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : When you were in Control, did 20 you have access to see the cameras? 21 MS. : Yeah, you - the cameras in 22 the - it's like little TV screens with little 23 individual boxes of different areas of the 24 institution. 25 MR. : Could you see the SHU in EFTA00114991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 there? 2 MS. : No. You could only see over 3 a balcony looking down to the MP and it was 4 like far off so it's like the camera is up on a 5 balcony and just looking all the way down over 6 there. You don't really - can't really see 7 nothing. 8 MR. : Was it clear? 9 MS. : No. It's like, if you see, 10 you might have seen a body move here and there, 11 but you can't really tell - you couldn't really 12 - it wasn't clear, no. 13 MR. : Did you ever hear that the 14 cameras are not working, offline or not 15 recording? 16 MS. : All the time. 17 MR. : And was there complaints 18 filed - told to anybody specific? The Captain, 19 Lieutenant? 20 MS. : I believe notifications were 21 made, like especially if we're in the Control 22 Center, we would call the com tech and say, 23 "Hey, this camera might have went out." So 24 yeah, notifications were made. 25 MR. : And did they fix it EFTA00114992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 immediately? 2 MS. : At that time, no, things 3 weren't getting fixed immediately, no. 4 MR. : Do you recall seeing Michael 5 Thomas (Indiscernible *02:00:56) on the camera 6 on the night - on the morning watch of August 7 10th? 8 MS. : You can't see really from the 9 camera that I had access to, you can't really 10 see - you can't - you barely could see because 11 it's like, I don't know if you've ever been in 12 our SHU. Have you ever been in the SHU? 13 MR. : That's -. 14 MR. : No, we have pictures but 15 we've never -- 16 MR. : That's this picture. 17 MR. actually been there. 18 MS. : So, you can't really see. 19 MR. : I'm showing you a picture. 20 MS. : This is -. 21 MR. : Is this the view? 22 MS. : Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, 23 this is it. So like, if they were in a black 24 hoodie or something, you can't see nobody over 25 there. If their back is turned and the chairs EFTA00114993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 are - you can't really see. You might see a 2 body walk across or you might see a body walk 3 down, but you can't really see. It's not - 4 real good copy. But yeah, that's exactly what 5 I'm talking about. 6 MR. : Do you have anything else on 7 the cameras? 8 MR. : No, just when you're in 9 the Control Center, does it - is there any 10 indication saying that if a camera is working 11 but not recording? No. There's no way for you 12 to know if a camera is recording or not? 13 MS. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Just if it was actually 15 live or not. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. You would just know 17 that the camera is up. You don't know - I 18 wouldn't have been able to tell you that, I 19 don't know. Huh-uh. 20 MR. : Okay. And did you, prior 21 to 6:33, when a body alarm was set off, did you 22 notice anything unusual happening in the 23 institution on any cameras? Specifically, I 24 guess the SHU one that you couldn't see that 25 well anyway? EFTA00114994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MS. : No. 2 MR. : No. Okay. 3 MS. : Huh-uh. 4 MR. : There was no other angles 5 from the SHU you could see? 6 MS. : No. This is all I - that's 7 all you could see. 8 MR. : Anything else on that? 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : Now just a few other 11 questions. 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Do you recall anyone going 14 into the SHU that night, on August 10th? 15 MS. : August 10th, that's the 16 Saturday? 17 MR. : That's Saturday, overnight. 18 MR. : The morning that Epstein 19 was found dead. 20 MS. : Going in? The morning he was 21 found or -- 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MS. : -- or the night prior to him 24 being found? 25 MR. : Both is fine. EFTA00114995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 MS. : Well, I know the Lieutenant 2 made rounds. 3 MR. : Lieutenant who? 4 MS. -: , she made rounds 5 because they have to call the door, so we have 6 to pop her in. 7 MR. : So when he says "night," 8 he's talking about midnight to 6:30 -- 9 MS. : Right. Yeah. 10 MR. : -- right. 11 MS. : So, Lieutenant, she made 12 rounds on the unit because the SHU staff called 13 the door for her to pop - for us to pop her 14 into the SHU and when they call the door, when 15 you hit that door, a visual of the door, who 16 standing in front of the door pops up in the 17 Control Center, so you know who is going into 18 the SHU. During the body alarm, our usual 19 staff just responds to a body alarm, so, you 20 know they say, "Hey, we have a medical 21 emergency in SHU," or wherever they call. You 22 got the SHU crew calling the door so staff can 23 run in and assist, so, whoever ran in, I 24 couldn't tell you. But whoever was on shift at 25 that time, responded. EFTA00114996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 MR. : So the only one overnight 2 would be at that - before his body was found 3 would be Lieutenant 4 MS. : Lieutenant 5 internal. If he had -. 6 MR. : Who is internal? 7 MS. -: 8 MR. : Do you recall 9 requesting to go into the SHU? 10 MS. : He would - he don't really 11 he wouldn't really have a reason to go into 12 SHU, not unless they're calling for you to come 13 in and do something or he's going in, you know, 14 because normally, the two officers will count, 15 they'll put their count slip on the door and 16 the internal officer, he'll pick up the count 17 slip on his rounds while he's counting the 18 other units. So, if he doesn't have a reason 19 to go in the SHU, he won't go in SHU. 20 MR. : Okay. Do you know if there's 21 any other way that anyone can get through that 22 outer door of the SHU without Control buzzing 23 them in? 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : Is the -. EFTA00114997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MS. : You would need an emergency 2 key that you would have to get from the Control 3 Center. But no one gets those keys. And 4 especially on morning watch when there's no 5 need for us to give out those keys. Staff are 6 calling the door, so, no, there's no other way 7 to get in that unit. 8 MR. : Are those keys kept open or 9 is it just it's locked up? 10 MS. : It's behind a door in the 11 bathroom in the Control Center. 12 MR. : And that would get you 13 through the first door. Do you know if there's 14 a second set of keys for the internal door for 15 the SHU kept in the Control Center? 16 MS. : We have keys for most of the 17 doors, yes. But those door - the inner door, 18 the Unit Officer would have, the inner door, he 19 has access to that. So the Unit Officers have 20 those keys. 21 MR. : We're just asking just to 22 clarify, if - do you know if anyone checked out 23 the keys for the inner door or the outer door 24 out of the Control Center that night? 25 MS. : The outer door, those keys EFTA00114998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 never get checked out, but the inner door, that 2 key is a key pretty much like a - you have to 3 put a chit on the Control Center and -. 4 MR. : Put a what? 5 MS. : A chit. 6 MR. : What's that? 7 MS. : So it's like a chit system. 8 I have a pair of keys. In order for me to get 9 these keys from Control, I have to turn in a 10 chit -- 11 MR. : So it's basically 12 MS. : -- with my name. Yeah, you 13 have to turn in a chit. So it's -. 14 MR. : A key chain with your name on 15 it. 16 MS. : Yeah, it's a chit. Uh-huh. 17 And you - it's like a - what is it, what would 18 you call it? Accountability. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : So, you put the chit on it, 21 you give the person a key. In order to get the 22 chit back, you got to give them the key back, 23 then you get the chit back. 24 MR. : Do you recall if anyone did 25 that for the SHU keys that night? EFTA00114999 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MS. : I don't recall. But I don't 2 recall that, no. 3 MR. : Okay. I've got nothing else. 4 Do you - is there any questions that you think 5 that we didn't ask you about that you feel that 6 we should ask you about? 7 MS. : Hm. 8 MR. : In regards to this Epstein 9 investigation? 10 MS. Mm, no, I think that's -. 11 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 12 took his own life? 13 MS. : I believe so. 14 MR. : Do you have any reason to 15 believe that anyone took Epstein's life aside 16 from himself? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Do you have any knowledge 19 of anyone assisting Epstein with taking his 20 life? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : No. I believe he had a lot 24 on his plate and this environment was a culture 25 shock to him then. I think that he took his EFTA00115000 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 own life. 2 MR. : Now the fact that we 3 don't have camera from that tier - oh, I wanted 4 to circle back with you. So our understanding 5 from the camera technicians and everyone else 6 is that there were actually at that time 7 cameras down each range, they just weren't 8 recording. 9 MS. : Oh. 10 MR. : Do you know anything 11 about that? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Do you know - do you have 14 any reason to believe that someone knocked 15 those cameras off line intentionally so that 16 they stopped recording? 17 MS. : No. No. I don't believe 18 that. No. No. 19 MR. : All right. And you don't 20 know anything about that? 21 MS. : No. No. That's a good one. 22 MR. : Well, it's just there's a 23 lot of coincidences in this one. 24 MS. : Yeah. It's unfortunate. You 25 know, this building is still deteriorating as EFTA00115001 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 we speak, so, it just - a lot of repairs and 2 maintenance that needs to be done1 in this 3 institution. It's - yeah. Yeah. 4 MR. : That's all. 5 MR. : That's it? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 8 the time to talk to us. 9 MS. : You're welcome. You're 10 welcome. 11 MR. : This is Special Agent 12 The time is 6:12 p.m. on Thursday, 13 July 15, 2021. We're ending the interview and 14 turning off the recorder. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115002 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 EFTA00115003 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00115004