EFTA00115159.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JULY 20, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00115159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 Today is Thursday, July 15, 2021. The 3 time is 4:03 p.m. and I've turned on the 4 recorder. My name is , I'm a 5 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice, Office of Inspector General, New York 7 Field Office and these are my credentials. 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : This interview is with the 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons Correctional Officer 11 and this interview is being conducted as 12 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 13 Office of Inspector General investigation. 14 Today is July 15, 2021. The time is 4:04 p.m. 15 This interview is being conducted at the 16 Metropolitan Correctional Center located at 150 17 Park Road. We are in the Executive Assistant's 18 office. Also present is DOJ OIG Senior Special 19 Agent and CO . This 20 interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent 21 . Could everyone please identify 22 themselves for the record and spell your last 23 name. To start, I am DOJ OIG Special Agent 24 25 MR. : I'm Senior Special Agent EFTA00115161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 also 2 with the DOJ OIG. 3 MR. : Can you please state your 4 first and last name? 5 MR. : Oh, and these are my 6 credentials just so you do know. 7 MS. : Okay. I'm Correctional 8 Systems Officers S. with 9 the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Department of 10 Justice. 11 MR. : This is an official DOJ OIG 12 investigation into the death of inmate Jeffery 13 Epstein and the surrounding circumstances. You 14 are being asked to voluntarily provide answers 15 to our questions. Will you agree to a 16 voluntary interview with the DOJ OIG? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Please review DOJ OIG form 3- 19 226/2. The form basically states, "United 20 States Department of Justice, Office of 21 Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances to 22 Employee Requested to Provide Information on a 23 Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to 24 provide information as part of an investigation 25 being conducted by the Office of Inspector EFTA00115162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 General. This investigation is being conducted 2 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 3 as amended. The investigation pertains to job 4 performance failure and security failure." 5 It's in general. It has nothing to do with you 6 directly, it's in general, the investigation 7 we're doing. "This is a voluntary interview. 8 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 9 questions. No disciplinary action will be 10 taken against you if you choose not to answer 11 questions. Any statement you furnish may be 12 used as evidence in any future criminal 13 proceedings or agency disciplinary proceedings 14 or both." The waiver states, "I understand the 15 warnings and assurances stated above and I am 16 willing to make a statement and answer 17 questions. No promises or threats have been 18 made to me or no pressure or coercion of any 19 kind has been used against me." Please review 20 the document and let me know if you understand. 21 If you do understand, please sign the document 22 where it says, "Employee signature," and print 23 your name. 24 MR. : And just for the record, 25 it doesn't basically state what you just said, EFTA00115163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 it actually states everything that you just 2 read. 3 MR. : It states that. I used the 4 word "basically states," I shouldn't have said 5 that. 6 MS. : Okay. And I sign at employee 7 sig-. 8 MR. : It says, "Employee 9 signature," and print your name right below 10 there. 11 MR. : Oh, do you have any 12 questions on that before we go, just you can 13 totally ask (Indiscernible *00:03:35). 14 MS. : Okay. No. 15 MR. : Just, I mean, the long 16 and -- 17 MS. : Date and time? 18 MR. : -- short of it is 19 MR. : I'll put it in there. 20 MR. we can do that. But 21 then just the long and short of it is, it's 22 voluntary. You do not have to answer 23 questions. You can leave at any time. 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : That's the purpose, for EFTA00115164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you just to -. 2 MR. : So you understand the form 3 and agree to the form. 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : This is Special Agent 6 I'm signing on the signature of the Office of 7 Inspector General, Special Agent. 8 MR. : This is Special Agent 9 . I'll be signing as the 10 witness, printing my name as a witness, 11 entering the date and time as July 15, 2021 at 12 4:07 p.m. and the place MCC New York. 13 MR. : Before starting the 14 interview, I'd like to place you under oath. 15 Ms. , can you please raise your right 16 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 17 nothing but the truth during this interview? 18 MS. : I do. 19 MR. : Please - you can put your 20 hand down. 21 MS. : Oh, okay. 22 MR. : Please let me know if you 23 don't understand my questions and I'll try to 24 repeat it or try to rephrase it for you. 25 MS. : Okay. EFTA00115165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 MR. : I want to again, clarify this 2 interview is specifically regarding inmate 3 Jeffrey Epstein on August 9th and 10th, 2019. 4 I'm going to go through some background 5 questions. What is your current home address? 6 MS. : My current home address? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MS. : Why is that relevant for 9 this? 10 MR. : As part of our investi-. 11 MR. : You don't have to provide 12 that. 13 MS. : Oh yeah, I don't want to -- 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MS. : -- give my address. 16 MR. : If you have anything - 17 any kind of, like a FIX, card you can show us 18 just so we can verify who it is that you are? 19 MS. : You know what? I left it at 20 my desk. 21 MR. : That's okay. Do you mind 22 providing us your date of birth and your last 23 four of your social security number? 24 MS. : Yes. is my date 25 of birth and last four of my social, EFTA00115166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 9 1 MR. : What is your highest level of 2 education? 3 MS. : Master's degree. 4 MR. : Okay. In what? 5 MS. : Inspector General 6 investigations, fraud, abuse of correction, 7 organizational assessment and monitoring. 8 MR. : You know more about this 9 stuff than us then. 10 MR. : Which college? 11 MS. : John J. 12 MR. : And what about bachelors? 13 MS. : My bachelors was correctional 14 administration. 15 MR. : What did you do prior to 16 working for the BOP? 17 MR. : Ask her about where this 18 stuff was and when she got these degrees. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : I got my masters in 2017. 21 got my BA in I believe 2006. 22 MR. : Also from John J.? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. And what - so prior to 25 working for the BOP, what did you do? EFTA00115167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Juvenile corrections. 2 MR. : Where? 3 MS. : Virginia. 4 MR. : Is that with the state? 5 City? 6 MS. : Yeah. State Department of 7 Juvenile Justice. 8 MR. : Was that directly before the 9 BOP? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : What years? I you don't 12 recall -. 13 MR. : They can be approximate. 14 MR. : Estimate, yeah. 15 MS. : Approximately, I think 2006 16 or `07 to 2009, when I started here. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 18 military service? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : And how long have you served 21 with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 22 MS. : Approximately now, 2009, 2019 23 is 10 years, 20, 21, going on 11 and a half 24 years. 25 MR. : Eleven and a half years? And EFTA00115168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 when was your enter on duty date? 2 MS. : 9/13/2009. 3 MR. : When did you graduate from 4 BOP training? 5 MS. : I don't remember that. I 6 don't -. 7 MR. : When did you begin your 8 career here at MCC? 9 MS. : March of 2011. 10 MR. : And what was your position at 11 that point? 12 MS. : Correctional Officer. 13 MR. : What is your composition? 14 MS. : Correctional Systems Officer. 15 MR. : And what's your regular 16 schedule right now? 17 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00 Monday through 18 Friday. 19 MR. : Do you -. 20 MR. : What does your position 21 entail? What is that? 22 MS. : Receiving and discharge, 23 movement. I deal with state risk, federal 24 risk, detainers, pending charges, warrants, 25 what else? EFTA00115169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : And that's outside of 2 custody? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. What is your grade 5 level? 6 MS. : GS-8. 7 MR. : Eight? Okay. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : What was your position on 10 August 9th and 10th, 2019? 11 MS. : I was a Correctional Systems 12 Officer, but I was working overtime in custody. 13 What a minutes. I don't even know what day 14 that is. 15 MR. : August 9th is a Friday. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : And August 10th is Saturday. 18 I can provide you the dailies and the roster 19 MS. : And what -. 20 MR. : -- for the MCC -- 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. -- and that's for August 9th 23 and 10th. If you look at it, you'll be able to 24 25 MR. : And provide her -- EFTA00115170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : This is two -. 2 MR. : -- provide her also her 3 timesheet. 4 MR. : Yes. Is this your timesheet 5 for the same time period? 6 MR. : Show her the columns 7 (Indiscernible *00:08:55). 8 MS. : Okay. 9 MR. : It's (Indiscernible 10 *00:08:58). 11 MS. : I normally write everything 12 on a calendar, but looks like my timesheet. 13 MR. : So, the timesheet is for 14 August 4th all the way to August 17th. For the 15 9th, where does this timesheet show that you 16 worked? 17 MS. : This - it doesn't show where 18 you're working, it just shows the hours you've 19 worked. 20 MR. : Is it coded under a certain 21 entry? 22 MR. : Well just ask her, do you 23 know by looking at these documents, do you know 24 where on August 9th and August 10th you were 25 working? This is not an, "I got you," EFTA00115171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 whatsoever. Just like, do you recall on August 2 9th(Indiscernible *00:10:03) working? 3 MS. : Well, I know that this is a 4 custody overtime code for the overtime sheets. 5 So this is -. 6 MR. : If it doesn't state, that's 7 okay. 8 MS. : It's possible, because I do 9 I was working a lot of overtime, so. But I 10 can't recall off the top of my head. But I 11 know I did work the evening of the Epstein 12 situation, so. 13 MR. : When you say "evening."? 14 MS. : The morning he hung himself. 15 MR. : Okay. So according to the 16 August 10th schedule, find yourself on the 17 schedule? 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : What were you listed for? 20 MS. : Control one. 21 MR. : Control one. Okay. Do you 22 recall being interviewed by - recall 23 interviewing with the OIG regarding the Epstein 24 investigation in 2019? 25 MS. : I remember being interviewed, EFTA00115172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 yes. 2 MR. : Okay. What I have is a 3 summary off a report written by the FBI. Was 4 the FBI also present? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : We did get a copy of it 7 because OIG was present for the interview also. 8 I'm going to read a portion of the interview 9 record for you. 10 MR. : Does it state when she 11 worked on August 9 and 10? That might help 12 clarify things. 13 MR. : For the 10th it does. And 14 so, I'm going to read it. As I read through 15 it, it's just summary for the record. Please 16 tell me if there's any corrections and let me 17 know -- 18 MS. : Okay. 19 MR. and we'll address it. 20 "Control's duties including monitoring the 21 activity on the ranges, answering calls from 22 COs, replying on the radio and opening doors." 23 MS. : Monitoring - you - at that 24 time, we didn't have cameras on the ranges so 25 you could only see the center, which is like, EFTA00115173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 they consider it the MPA, multi-purpose area of 2 the unit. You are not able to see down the 3 actual ranges of the units, so no. I wouldn't 4 say, "The ranges," I would say, "The multi- 5 purpose area." 6 MR. : Multi-purpose area of the 7 ranges. "And ," did I pronounce it 8 right? 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. . stated that no one is 11 really moving anywhere within the institution. 12 A count sheet is called the E-1 and it is 13 printed off from the internal MCC system called 14 SENTRY. Control validates all respondent 15 numbers from the head counts and marks an X on 16 the E-1 sheet to confirm the count. This 17 happens for every check of every unit. E-ls 18 are supplemented with count slips that are 19 properly filled out and stapled to the E-1 20 timesheet. Once all head count numbers are 21 verified to be correct, everything is 22 documented, recorded and then considered to be 23 a good count. began her shift on August 24 10th at 12:00 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 25 stated that Lieutenant took care of EFTA00115174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 the 12 o'clock that day." I'm going to pause 2 right there. I'm going to ask you a question. 3 Do you recall coming on shift that day? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you recall the first count 6 would be at 12:00 midnight? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : And were you in Control when 9 the count happened? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Who took the count? 12 MS. : I don't remember at that 13 time. I don't remember all this time ago, but 14 if I said the Lieutenant took the count at that 15 time, then that's who took the count, because 16 every Lieutenant is required to take a count, 17 one count per shift. 18 MR. : But you don't recall the 19 exact situation -. 20 MR. : I think what he's asking 21 was, was Lieutenant in the Control 22 with you? 23 MS. : At some point in time, yes, 24 she was. 25 MR. : So if she was taking the EFTA00115175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 count, does that mean that she's doing from 2 Control? 3 MS. : Yes, she's doing it from 4 Control. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Okay. recalled that 7 CO Thomas -" - and this says CO Noel, but is 8 that Noel? 9 MS. : Noel. 10 MR. "CO Noel worked in the SHU on 11 the day of the incident. stated that 12 Noel was fairly new. stated that she 13 does not pay specific attention to just one 14 individual screen during her shifts since so 15 much is going on. stated that extension 16 is a number that is called for reporting 17 the count. If a Lieutenant is on the unit for 18 the count, then this is when it is considered a 19 watch call. On the 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. 20 watch calls, ran the counts. 21 recalled that the SHU called in the count of 22 the day and that the count was accurate. 23 does not recall who called in the count 24 from the SHU but recalled that the number was 25 72. stated that there are folders that EFTA00115176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 are filed that are compiled with count 2 verification timesheets for every day of the 3 calendar year." 4 MS. : That is correct. 5 MR. : So I asked you, on August 6 10th, you said you worked at midnight in 7 Control. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Do you recall if you worked 10 on August 9th? 11 MS. : I probably did. I don't 12 recall that, this far from now to then, but I 13 probably most likely worked that day and if 14 it's on the roster and it's on my timesheet, 15 most likely, yes. 16 MR. : But you wouldn't happen to 17 recall if you worked in internal or R&D? 18 MS. : I know I worked R&D because 19 that's my regular position and Custody, 20 anything I did in Custody would be considered 21 overtime for me. 22 MR. : Okay. So, on August 9th, by 23 based on that, it wouldn't tell - would the 24 (Indiscernible *00:15:16). 25 MS. : It did say overtime. It did EFTA00115177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 say overtime in internal. 2 MR. : But internal is not - is that 3 the same as R&D? 4 MS. : No. R&D, this is 5 Correctional Services. R&D is Correctional 6 Systems. Those are two different departments. 7 This is custody and R&D is non-custody. 8 MR. : So by this, were you in 9 custody? 10 MS. : Yes. I was there. 11 MR. : Okay. So you were working in 12 internal, not in R&D. 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay. Do you recall who your 15 supervisor was when you worked at the MCC on 16 August 9th and 10th? 17 MS. : I would only know by looking 18 at this roster. , Lieutenant 19 MR. : So you report only to 20 or do you report to any other COs 21 MS. : No, she's the only supervisor 22 on duty during that time. 23 MR. : During the night. And so 24 both days it was midnight to 8:00 a.m. 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00115178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. Was she also a 2 supervisor? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : Are you familiar with inmate 5 Jeffrey Epstein? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Did Jeffrey Epstein have a 8 cell mate? 9 MS. : Yes, he did. 10 MR. : Do you know who it was? 11 MS. : I don't know, but I know the 12 inmate went out to court I believe Friday and 13 he didn't come back from court. I don't know 14 if he got released from court, but he didn't 15 come back to the institution that day. 16 MR. : How do you know that? 17 MS. : Because I work in R&D. 18 MR. : So, is this from your 19 knowledge from working in R&D that day or on a 20 later date? 21 MS. : My knowledge of working in 22 R&D that day. 23 MR. : So that's - okay. Because 24 according to this, you were in R&D -- 25 MS. : I was in R&D. EFTA00115179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I mean, you're in 2 internal. 3 MS. : Right. But this is midnight. 4 My hours in R&D is from 12:00 to 8:00. 5 MR. : 12:00 to 8:00? So you did 6 work later in the shift -- 7 MS. : Right. 8 MR. so that (Indiscernible 9 *00:16:56) be on the schedule at all. You're 10 not going to be on this roster. It's not going 11 to show you as 12:00 to 8:00. 12 MS. : Custody has a different 13 roster from my department roster. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : So you're not going to see my 16 department. My department hours would be that 17 - what you see on that timesheet and this is 18 considered overtime. So anything here, where 19 it says, "Additional," this is overtime because 20 you see the two shifts, the eight up here and 21 the eight at the bottom. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : And that's 16 hours for the 24 day. 25 MR. : So I'm going to go back and EFTA00115180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 clarify. On August 9th, you worked from 2 midnight to 8:00 a.m. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : -- and you were in internal. 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And then after that, what was 7 your next shift? 8 MS. : That was Saturday, the next 9 day. That would be midnight the next night. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : These are all midnight 12 shifts. 13 MR. : Midnight shifts. But did you 14 work regular shifts those days? August 9th and 15 10th? 16 MS. : In my department? 17 MR. : Yeah, in R&D. 18 MS. : If it's a Friday and a 19 Thursday or a Friday and a Saturday. A 20 Saturday, I wouldn't be in my department, no. 21 MR. : What about Friday? 22 MS. : Friday I'm in my department, 23 yes, because my department is Monday through 24 Friday. 25 MR. : And what's your regular time? EFTA00115181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 MS. : 12:00 to 8:00. I believe I 2 was working 12:00 to 8:00. I'm not sure. 3 MR. : That's midnight to 8:00, 4 right? But midnight to 8:00 -. 5 MS. : No, no, no, 12:00 p.m. in the 6 afternoon -- 7 MR. : 12:00 p.m. to 8:00. 8 MS. to 8:00 p.m. 9 MR. : To 8:00 p.m. So, according 10 to this, you were in internal from - on August 11 9th, from midnight to 8:00 a.m., then there was 12 a four hour break? Are you saying there was a 13 four hour break and then you worked from -. 14 MS. : I'm not sure right here based 15 on this because I might have been working 2:00 16 to 10:00 because I had to do 12:00 8:00 p.m. or 17 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : So, based on this, this says, 20 "Regular base." This might have been from the 21 day shift because this says, "Regular base," so 22 this might have been, I worked midnight to 8:00 23 in the morning and then maybe 8:00 to 4:00 in 24 my department because I don't see no - well, I 25 don't record my duty hours in my department at EFTA00115182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that time. 2 MR. : It's been a while. 3 MS. : I'm sorry. Yeah. 4 MR. : But to follow up though, 5 you said that you knew that Epstein's cell mate 6 had left because you were working in R&D, so 7 you probably want to follow up -- 8 MR. : Yeah. So -. 9 MR. : -- with that. 10 MS. : So we key inmates in and out 11 to court. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So that - so, Reyes, how did 14 you first come to learn that he left? 15 MS. : Because we have to key them 16 out to go to court. I mean, I don't know 17 actually at that moment that he was Epstein's 18 cell mate, but when the comment came up that 19 his bunkie, they moved his bunkie, they put him 20 in a cell by himself, and when we learned who 21 that specific inmate was, that's how I became 22 aware that, no, this guy went to court and he 23 was released from court, wherever he got 24 removed to. Never came back from court. 25 MR. : What do you mean they moved EFTA00115183 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 his bunkie to a separate cell? 2 MS. : They kept saying Epstein was 3 put in a cell by himself, he didn't have a cell 4 mate. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : That was not the case, he did 7 have a cell mate, but he got released from 8 court or wherever it is the Marshals took him 9 to, that he didn't come back to MCC. But off 10 the top to say I knew that that was actually 11 his cell mate, I didn't know that until we 12 became aware of who the inmate was that got 13 released and went to court, because we don't 14 know who inmate's cell mates are just by 15 working in R&D, we just know their bed 16 assignment and what unit they're coming from. 17 MR. : No, working the R&D, are you 18 familiar with something called the court list? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Was inmate Reyes's name on 21 the court list? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Do you recall? 24 MS. : Yeah. Because I think that's 25 the guy we keyed out to court. EFTA00115184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 MR. : Okay. And what is a court 2 list? 3 MS. : A court list is something we 4 get from the Marshals. They'll send us over 5 just a roster of names of inmates to appear for 6 production to the court either going out on a 7 RIT (Phonetic Sp. *00:21:13), being transferred 8 to another jail. A court list consists of 9 whatever type of movement that the Marshals 10 want the inmates for. It could be appearing 11 before a proffer to tell on somebody, it could 12 just be whatever it is that they need them to 13 appear for the court production for. 14 MR. : How do the Marshals send it 15 over? 16 MS. : They always email it or fax 17 it. 18 MR. : Who receives the email? 19 MS. : Everybody in R&D. 20 MR. : Do you recall who was working 21 in R&D that day? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Everybody receives it. 24 MS. : Yeah, everybody in R&D 25 receives it, but I couldn't say off the -- EFTA00115185 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MS. : -- top of my head, "Oh, this 3 person worked," I don't remember who worked 4 with me that day. 5 MR. : So everybody that 6 actually is in R&D, you all get that same 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- court sheet, so it 9 doesn't matter who was working that day or not. 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : Everybody would have 12 gotten it. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : Do you recall receiving that 15 email? 16 MS. : I don't recall receiving the 17 email, but I know we had a court list. 18 MR. : Who creates that court list? 19 MS. : Whoever is doing movement. 20 MR. : Okay. And what - so you just 21 mentioned all the inmates that's listed on 22 there anything for movement and the Marshals 23 send it over -- 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- and they email it. Aral EFTA00115186 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 what do you get? 2 MR. : Email or fax you said, 3 right? 4 MS. : Email or fax. 5 MR. : Or fax. 6 MR. : Is it (Indiscernible 7 *00:22:21) -. 8 MS. : Well, I believe they were 9 doing both email and faxing at that time. 10 MR. : So you get both. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And once the list comes over, 14 and who did you say creates the court list? 15 MS. : The movement officer and if 16 the movement officer is not there, whoever is 17 filling in, it might be somebody in the front 18 desk. Just whoever is in the department, 19 they'll fill out the - complete the court list, 20 put it on a call out and get it prepared so 21 overnight, the officer who is internal can pass 22 it out to the housing unit so the inmates are 23 aware when they wake up the next day or the 24 officer can say, "Hey, I got this inmate, I've 25 got to get him ready for court the next day." EFTA00115187 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : Who is the movement officer? 2 MS. : I don't know if - I don't 3 know who was the movement officer at that time. 4 I don't know. 5 MR. : Okay. When do the -. 6 MR. : When you say a movement 7 officer, are you talking about control? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : I mean internal? 10 MS. : No. R&D. 11 MR. : R&D movement officer? 12 MS. : We have different position 13 yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : We have different positions 16 in R&D where everybody had a different 17 function. 18 MR. : Okay. So is the movement 19 officer in R&D basically like will go into 20 internal with (Indiscernible *00:23:21)? 21 MS. : No, they are - they are like, 22 they prepare the transfer orders if inmates are 23 moving out of the -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. -- institution. EFTA00115188 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So they're doing the 2 background of what the internal guy does 3 almost. 4 MS. : They don't have anything to 5 do with internal. 6 MR. : Okay. Because - okay. 7 Sorry. 8 MS. : It's - no. 9 MR. : I'm making more things 10 more (Indiscernible *00:23:38). 11 MS. : Nothing to do with internal. 12 It's just preparing inmates to move out of the 13 institution, preparing the production list for 14 inmates to - for a unit - for a list to be 15 disseminated to the housing units for the 16 officers to know what inmate has to appear in 17 court the next day. The movement officer might 18 draft up a - get a compile, like a medical 19 summary, transit order, anything that they need 20 to put together for an inmate to be released to 21 move out of the institution to be transferred. 22 That's what the movement officer does. 23 MR. : Great. 24 MR. : Do you recall what your 25 position was in the R&D that day? EFTA00115189 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : I might have been R&D. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : I might have been R&D. I 4 don't believe I was movement but I might have 5 been R&D. 6 MR. : So as R&D, what would you 7 take care of? 8 MS. : Court movement, inmates going 9 in and out, keying them in and out, getting 10 inmates down to my area to get prepared for 11 court, tracking inmates going out to the 12 hospital, keying inmates going out to the 13 hospital, keying inmates coming back. 14 Basically, I would be responsible for like 15 inmates leaving in and out of the institution 16 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : -- and preparing them to get 19 out of the institution. 20 MR. : We can take a step back. 21 When did the Marshals list normally come over: 22 Do they send it over the night before? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Evening before or they send 25 it the morning of? EFTA00115190 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : The evening before. 2 MR. : Around what time? 3 MS. : I think it's always around 4 it's approximately between, I would say, maybe 5 3:00 and 5:00 or - yeah, between like 3:00 and 6 5:00, something like that. 7 MR. : Okay. And -. 8 MS. : Around that time frame. It's 9 not like a set time, it's whoever does it and 10 faxes it over and emails it. But it was about 11 maybe between 3:00 and 5:00 or 3:00 and 6:00, 12 something like that. 13 MR. : And then once R&D receives 14 it, you guys prepare a court list. 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : And what does it state on the 17 court list? 18 MS. : It's just a document, like a 19 SENTRY created document that show the inmate's 20 name, his housing unit, if he has a separatee 21 (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:49) in the institution and 22 what time he has to come down to R&D to move 23 out for court, whether it be that he has court 24 in the a.m. or court in the p.m. 25 MR. : Okay. And would it state, EFTA00115191 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 like, let's say if an inmate was leaving and 2 not coming back, would it state on there? 3 MS. : Yeah, it would say, "WAB," 4 but most often times, pre-trial is - because 5 they're not our inmates, they're Marshals 6 inmates, the Marshals can move them at any 7 given time and just forward us back a 8 disposition of the inmate leaving. "Inmate so 9 and so was released to Probation. Here's a cut 10 slip for you guys, file -" - then we can go 11 ahead and key them out. But we don't key 12 inmates out WAB if they're going out to court. 13 We key them out - at that time, we were doing 14 what was considered an out count. We weren't 15 keying inmates out, we were keying them on an 16 out count so we know that we have an account of 17 who went out to court and we have an account of 18 who came back from court. 19 MR. : So are you saying that you 20 guys wouldn't remove the inmate completely from 21 the count, you would just leave them under the 22 out count? 23 MS. : Yes. We would only remove 24 him if prior to that list, when we got the 25 list, it says, "Transferred WAB, we're sending EFTA00115192 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 him somewhere to Brooklyn or he's going back to 2 the state," that night before we would know 3 that. But sometimes at the spur of the moment, 4 things might arise, a judge might give a person 5 time served, he might commit him to drug 6 treatment program, Probation might come and 7 pick him up. It could be a number of things 8 that take place at court that it might be just 9 a regular court proceeding but then he gets 10 released and he doesn't come back to the 11 institution. 12 MR. : Do you recall seeing inmate 13 Efrain Reyes's name on that list? 14 MS. : If he was on that list at 15 that time, then I've seen it, but I don't 16 recall now, speaking now, but at that time, 17 yeah, if his name was on the list, yes. 18 MR. : Do you recall if his - I know 19 you said you don't recall, but by any chance, 20 would you have known if he left WAB? What does 21 WAB stand for? 22 MS. : With all belonging, meaning 23 they're being transferred either to an air 24 lift, transferred to another BOP, transferred 25 to another state institution, that the Marshals EFTA00115193 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 will be transferring them to. 2 MR. : And you don't recall if he 3 do you recall if his name was on as WAB on that 4 list? 5 MS. : No. I don't recall that. 6 MR. : Okay. We'll come back in a 7 little bit. The court list that you guys 8 create, who does that get sent to? 9 MS. : It doesn't get sent to - it 10 gets sent to the unit officers. We don't email 11 it out, we make hard copies and the internal 12 officer comes around at night and he gives one 13 to each housing unit. 14 MR. : Around what time? 15 MS. : Depending on - any time 16 during from midnight to 8:00 in the morning. 17 They have up until to give out that. But most 18 likely, no later than 5:00 a.m., after the 5 19 o'clock count because at that time, that's when 20 the institution is opening up after the 5:00 21 a.m. count, then the inmates will have their 22 breakfast and start preparing for whatever it 23 is their day entails. 24 MR. : Do you recall working that 25 morning in R&D and seeing inmate Reyes come EFTA00115194 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 down? 2 MS. : I don't remember. 3 MR. : Okay. And when the list is 4 sent up to the units, what do they do with it? 5 MS. : The unit officers take it and 6 he views it and it just tells him who on his 7 unit has court that day. 8 MR. : Is a copy of that list 9 maintained anywhere? 10 MR. : By R&D. 11 MR. : R&D. 12 MS. : No. Because -- 13 MR. : Where do we get it? 14 MS. : -- once we - once that list 15 is done of the day, we just shred it, we don't 16 need it. 17 MR. : What about what's used to 18 - it sounds like create the list from the 19 Marshals, can we get - can we go back to emails 20 from August 8th, I guess it would be, to get 21 that court list from August 9th? 22 MS. : If it's still in the system, 23 yeah, you would still - you would be able to 24 see it, yeah. 25 MR. : And you said at that EFTA00115195 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 time, they're both fax and email so any single 2 person we could just grab an email from them if 3 it was archived? 4 MS. : Uh-huh. If it's still, you 5 know, in the system, but we don't normally keep 6 court lists. Once we done for that day, 7 everything gets shredded and we start fresh for 8 the next day. So we don't hold onto court 9 lists. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Just something we never did. 12 The only thing we hold onto is transfer orders, 13 people that transferred out, like -. 14 MR. : So for instance, with 15 Reyes - when you say "transfer order," does 16 that also mean released or is that just 17 transferred to a different institution? 18 MS. : Transferred to a different 19 institution -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : -- because if he got released 22 or he got a disposition, that would be 23 something we would place in his file, why he 24 got released. You know you got to have 25 something to show that why you released this EFTA00115196 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 inmate, that we didn't just let him walk out 2 the door, we have this document from the 3 Marshals why we released him. 4 MR. : So would Reyes have 5 file like that? 6 MS. : If it's not sent to archives 7 and this is 2021, his file would be - his file 8 is probably archived now. 9 MR. : even thought it's like - 10 my understanding was like August 9th everything 11 was going to be, like, preserved August 9th and 12 10th. Do you know if that would create it not 13 actually be archived but actually still 14 maintained somewhere? 15 MS. : You would have to get with 16 SIS, I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 19 MR. : Do you know if that court 20 list is used to update the daily log? 21 MS. : What do you mean? 22 MR. : Do you know what a daily log 23 is? 24 MR. : Show her. 25 MR. : Have you ever seen that? EFTA00115197 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Uh-huh. This is 2 MR. : Is that -. 3 MS. -- 38. 4 MR. : It's a what? 5 MS. : We call this a PP38. 6 MR. PP38. 7 MS. : It just tracks movement of 8 who went out the institution, who went from 9 what unit to what unit, who got keyed out. 10 This is what this is. It just tracks all the 11 movement for that day. 12 MR. : Can you flip to the third 13 page for inmate Efrain Reyes. You see next to 14 it it says, "Pre-remove." Do you know what 15 that means? 16 MS. : Uh-huh. That means he was 17 removed from the institution. 18 MR. : Does that mean there's a 19 possibility that the Marshals list came over 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. -- with him as a WAB? 22 MS. : Possibility. Yeah. 23 MR. : What else could it - why else 24 would you list an inmate as pre-remove? 25 MS. : We don't list them as pre- EFTA00115198 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 remove, we just key him out as pre-remove. 2 MR. : So he was keyed out at that 3 point. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : And what time was it keyed 6 out, do you know? 7 MS. : 8:38. Uh-huh. 8 MR. : And he wouldn't be - if 9 person is going to court, what would it be 10 listed as? 11 MS. : If he's going to court on 12 this, you wouldn't see - at that time, you 13 wouldn't see that he went to court. You would 14 have to run an out count to show who was keyed 15 out to court. So, you wouldn't be able to see 16 that on this because this just tracks who came 17 into the institution, who left the institution 18 and what housing units they were transferred 19 from, whether they came out of SHU or they went 20 to SHU or they got moved from one unit, housing 21 unit, to another housing unit or if they're - 22 say an inmate got sentenced, this would show 23 you that he might have went from a A-pre, 24 meaning a pre-trial inmate to a hold, he might 25 have pled guilty so now he's longer a pre-trial EFTA00115199 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 and he's waiting sentencing. So this would 2 just show you stuff like that. Or he became a 3 designated inmate and he's a BOP inmate. 4 MR. : How would you be able to see 5 the difference between an inmate that just left 6 for court and was coming back and an inmate 7 that left? 8 MR. : Or WAS. 9 MR. : WAB. 10 MS. : On this? 11 MR. : Yeah. Can you? 12 MS. : Yeah, you could just see - 13 well, you don't know, you just know that they 14 were pre-removed. So you don't know, looking 15 at this, why they were pre-removed. 16 MR. : So I guess what he means 17 though, is if someone is just going to court 18 and didn't go to court WAB versus someone who 19 went to court WAB, would they be coded 20 differently on that? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : At all? 23 MS. : At that time, we weren't - if 24 the inmate went to court and he was a WAB, we 25 would key him out pre-remove or hold-remove. EFTA00115200 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 So yes, but - I'm trying to think, what did you 2 just say. Say it again. 3 MR. : So I guess, is there a 4 differentiation, if someone is WAB, are they 5 coded as pre-remove if they're just going to 6 court and they don't have WAB next to their 7 name on that form, would it just say something 8 different, like "Court?" 9 MS. : No, you wouldn't see WAB on 10 this form. You -. 11 MR. : No, no, no, I'm not 12 saying like you would see WAB on that form -- 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : I'm just saying like, 15 if an inmate goes to court, are they always 16 listed as pre-remove? 17 MS. : No, they'd be hold to move. 18 MR. : And what's the 19 difference? So is it either pre-remove or 20 hold-remove? 21 MS. : Or bail bond. 22 MR. : Or bail bond. And can 23 you -. 24 MS. : Or time served. 25 MR. : Okay. So, when they're EFTA00115201 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 leaving and - so it sounds like the latter to 2 that are totally different things. But if 3 MS. : Well, no. They could be on 4 the court list and they could appear and go out 5 to court as a court and they might get ordered 6 to time served. 7 MR. : Uh-huh. 8 MS. : So, now, we have them on an 9 out count as going to court because we weren't 10 keying inmates physically out of the 11 institution, we were placing them on an out 12 count. So you would send them out to court as 13 a court, but if you got a disposition back from 14 the Marshals stating that, "Inmate so and so 15 was sentenced to time served," now you would go 16 back in the system and you would key him out, 17 time served. So it doesn't necessarily mean 18 that they could be on the court list as a WAB 19 because that doesn't always happen. Sometimes 20 they do get released straight from the 21 courthouse and never come back to the jail, so 22 those things do happen. 23 MR. : And that's what ha- so, 24 what we're trying to get to is, is there any 25 way by looking at that, we can determine if EFTA00115202 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 Reyes, when he left at 8:38, had a WAB next to 2 his name. 3 MS. : Not from looking at this, no. 4 MR. : No? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : The only way we would be 7 able to determine that is by getting that court 8 list? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : All right. And -. 11 MS. : Because the Marshals could 12 have sent something back over and said, "Inmate 13 so and so is not coming back, he's going with 14 Probation." He could have had a court 15 appearance and he could have - it could have 16 been with his probation officer and at that 17 time, the judge could have said whatever and 18 sentenced the inmate to probation. So now, 19 he's not coming back to the institution, now 20 we've got to pre-remove him. It just all 21 depends on what happened at court and it all 22 depends on what his status was prior to going 23 to court, what we got far as the court list. 24 So I couldn't tell you that just by looking at 25 that. EFTA00115203 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 MR. : When the Marshals send 2 over whatever it is they send over, did they 3 have WAB on their form? 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : So, if we get one of 8 those emails, it would say WAB on it. 9 MS. : At that time, it said WAB, 10 yes. 11 MR. : Okay. So that's not 12 something that you create and write WAB, they 13 actually would have it on that email. 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Right. We don't create that 17 until we get their list. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 MS. : Then that's - we go by what' 20 on their list and then we type it up and we 21 disseminate it to the housing units like that. 22 MR. : Okay. But somebody that 23 your - so, my understanding though is that not 24 everybody that goes to court is WAB. 25 MS. : That's correct. EFTA00115204 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 MR. : And just to make sure 2 that we are understanding correctly on that, so 3 people that just go to court, would they also 4 be listed as pre-remove? 5 MS. : They could possibly be, yes. 6 MR. : Just possibly, but -. 7 MS. : It could possibly be because 8 the Marshals might call you and say, "Hey, we 9 got inmate so and so, he's not coming back, 10 he's going with the state," and they'll send us 11 a cut slip. Yeah. 12 MR. : No, that's after the fact 13 though, after they've already left? 14 MS. : That can possibly happen 15 after they left, yes. 16 MR. : So if we're looking at 17 this thing on RAS (Phonetic Sp. *00:37:52) 18 where it says 8:38, is that what was entered 19 for him at 8:38 or is it that could have been 20 changed later on, the pre-remove thing? 21 MS. : It just depends on what time 22 he went out. I don't know because it could 23 have been changed. Well, no. Well, I can't 24 tell you just by looking at this. 25 MR. : So, all right, so this EFTA00115205 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 doesn't tell us anything? 2 MS. : It tells you that he was 3 removed from the institution. 4 MR. : At 8:38 though. 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And I guess, so - and 7 again, I 8 MS. : Because at one point in time, 9 how we key inmates out now is not how we were 10 keying inmates out then. We didn't key them 11 out, we just placed them on the out count. So, 12 if we keyed them on an out count, they would 13 show off of the unit population but they would 14 still be on the institutional count. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Now, how we key them out, 17 they're off the institutional count and they're 18 off the unit count. So when we key them out 19 now for court, they - it's like they never - 20 they're not here in the institution at all. 21 MR. : Okay. So for these 22 people that were on this pre-remove, does that 23 mean at 8:38, pre-remove, that he was taken off 24 of the institutional count? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00115206 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : And is there - I do see a 4 few pre-removes on there though. 5 MS. Uh-huh. 6 MR. : Is there anybody on there 7 that went to court that wasn't listed as a pre- 8 remove? 9 MS. : I don't know. 10 MR. : You can't tell by looking 11 at that? All right. So that basically doesn't 12 tell us anything about him being WAB or not. 13 MS. : Right. I can't tell you who 14 went to court. 15 MR. : Okay. We just need to 16 get that court list. 17 MR. : So just to clarify. Some of 18 this list as pre-remove can come back. 19 MS. : Can't? 20 MR. : Can, C-A-N, they could come 21 back to the institution. 22 MS. : If he got another charge and 23 the Marshals brough him back. 24 MR. : But - okay. So if there is 25 pre-removed, that means he's gone. He's -. EFTA00115207 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : He's gone. 2 MR. : He's gone. 3 MS. : Right. 4 MR. : And he's not expected to 5 come back? 6 MS. : Correct. 7 MR. : Okay. All right. I did 8 miss that. All right. So when you list them 9 as pre-remove, he's going to court, he's not 10 expected to come back. 11 MS. : Correct. 12 MR. : So at 8:38, Reyes was 13 gone and not expected to return. 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. Now, is the 16 Marshals supposed to send over a confirmation 17 that he's not coming back? Because you 18 mentioned something about they being keyed as 19 something different when they are officially 20 gone, like they're off the books. 21 MS. : No, this would be officially 22 off the books, a pre-remove. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : But what the question was, 25 would I know at this time, was he a WAB, I EFTA00115208 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 would only know that if I looked at the court 2 list at that time, then I can determine that, 3 "Okay, yeah, we keyed him out that way because 4 he was leaving with all his belonging," Or, 5 "No, we keyed him out that way because we got a 6 disposition later and stated that he wasn't 7 coming back." I can't just say, just by 8 looking at this, "Oh, well, we keyed him out 9 that way because he was a WAB." Now, I can 10 look at this GCT release and this full term 11 release or this treaty transfer and tell you 12 that these were guys that were getting full 13 term release from the jail and they were not 14 coming back. But - and I can also say that 15 he's not coming back, but I can't tell you why 16 he was pre-removed. I don't know the 17 circumstances of why he was pre-removed. I 18 would have to go back to his folder, look in 19 his folder, pull up his documents of why we 20 keyed him out. I can't just say, "Oh, yeah, 21 because he left with all his belongings, oh, it 22 was a court -" - I can't -. 23 MR. : So you can't tell that, 24 but you can tell 8:38 he left and was not 25 expected to return. EFTA00115209 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. So that's 3 basically the same thing. So, anybody that 4 knew that Reyes was gone at 8:38, like he was, 5 knew very unlikely to return. 6 MS. : Everybody don't have - 7 everybody doesn't look at this. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : So, if you don't have a 10 reason to look at this, you're not going to 11 look at this and everybody -. 12 MR. : But anybody that had the 13 - whatever reason you used to code him out like 14 that, they would have had that court list and 15 they would have had the same - they would have 16 known the reason why he was leaving though, 17 correct? 18 MS. : Right. 19 MR. : And that he wasn't 20 expected to return? 21 MS. : Right. 22 MR. : So, okay. So not 23 specifically that document, but what you used 24 to key him out, they would know. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115210 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : so, okay. So, based upon 2 the fact that he was pre-removed by R&D, for 3 instance, the unit he came from, the Special 4 Housing Unit, they should have known he left 5 and was very likely not returning. 6 MS. : They wouldn't know that. The 7 officers on the unit would not know that. 8 MR. : Even if they had the 9 court list and that's where they're grabbing 10 him from? 11 MS. : If the - let me tell you 12 something. I'm trying to figure out how to say 13 this. Everybody that reads a document, do not 14 know what they're reading. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : Everybody that pulls up 17 SENTRY, does not know how to read a SENTRY 18 document. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MS. : So I can't say, "Yes," 21 they should know that or, "No." 22 MR. : If they knew how to read 23 the court list, they would know. 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Got you. EFTA00115211 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 MS. : Right. 2 MR. : Yeah, you can't certainly 3 can't say he knew that because you don't even 4 know who we're talking about. 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : But I'm just saying, like 7 the information would have been on there if 8 they knew how to interpret it. 9 MS. : Right. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : we might have covered this 12 already, but if we wanted to go back and 13 retrieve that court document, like get a copy, 14 what's the best way we can do it? 15 MS. : You probably need to get with 16 the Marshals because they're the ones that 17 create that list that they sent to us in order 18 for production. 19 MR. : Are you aware if they retain 20 it or not? 21 MS. : I don't know nothing about 22 what they do with their 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. -- documents. 25 MR. : No problem. EFTA00115212 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 MR. : No, well, she said that 2 it's emailed to everybody -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : -- so. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : Now, after reviewing that, do 7 you know if that daily log - if the court 8 document, the court list is used to update the 9 Lieutenant's log? 10 MS. : There's - yeah, yeah. 11 MR. : And the daily log. 12 MS. : Right. 13 MR. : Okay. We covered this. And 14 the daily log, the entries that are made on it, 15 is it made at the time that it's keyed in or is 16 it - can it be edited later? 17 MS. : When you say "edited," what 18 do you mean? 19 MR. : Can someone go in a couple 20 hours later and key in saying that, "Hey, 21 listen, this person left at 8:38." 22 MS. : I don't think so because 23 everybody that actually - you have a certain 24 time frame to key inmates in and you have a 25 certain time frame to key inmates out. EFTA00115213 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 MR. : And what's the time frame? 2 MS. : If inmates - but sometimes in 3 R&D, we don't always get to sit down at the 4 computer right then and there and key them out, 5 because we're dealing with the Marshals, 6 they're walking out with one guy, we still have 7 somebody else we might have to strip out. 8 We're still dealing with this, we're dealing 9 with the phone. When an inmate is being 10 released, you're supposed to key them out right 11 then and there, but you have up to a minimum of 12 at least, I think it's an hour or two hours, to 13 key somebody in that's coming in the 14 institution. But, like I said, just looking at 15 this, it just tells you the time he was keyed 16 out. I don't know if he was picked up earlier 17 and already taken to the courthouse, then he 18 was keyed out, pre-removed after, I couldn't 19 I can't answer that. I don't know. It's not - 20 I can't answer that. 21 MR. : Now thinking back about the 22 possibility that you were working in R&D that 23 day -- 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- do you recall if he was EFTA00115214 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 removed or not that day and what time he was 2 removed? 3 MS. : I don't recall. I just know 4 that when they talked about the inmate, they 5 brought up the inmate and that's when, you 6 know, we realized, "Oh, that was the guy that 7 went to court and didn't come back." 8 MR. : Where can the daily log be 9 found or accessed? 10 MS. : This? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MS. : SENTRY. 13 MR. : And who would have access to 14 it? 15 MS. : Mainly everybody in the 16 institution. 17 MR. : Everyone can access it. Can 18 everyone make the changes on it? 19 MS. : No, you can't make changes on 20 this. 21 MR. : Who can make changes on that? 22 MS. : You cannot make changes to 23 this. 24 MR. : So, that is basically the 25 keyed in information. EFTA00115215 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : This is like a tracker. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : It just shows you all the 4 moves and when it was moved - when the person 5 was moved. So this, you cannot just change. 6 Only thing you can do is put in what you want. 7 It's just a log, it just pulls up a log. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : So this is not nothing you 10 can change, no. 11 MR. : What about the Lieutenant's 12 log? Who would have access to that? 13 MS. : The Lieutenants. 14 MR. : Does anyone else have access? 15 MS. : Maybe the Captain. 16 MR. : Where can it be accessed 17 from? 18 MS. : The Lieutenant's office. 19 MR. : Can it be accessed from 20 Control? 21 MS. : I don't know about now, but 22 at that time, no. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if you 24 reviewed the daily log that day? 25 MS. : No, I don't remember. EFTA00115216 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 MR. : And based on that, it shows 2 inmate Reyes is pre-remove. As per your 3 understanding, that means that he left the 4 institution and he's not coming back. 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you utilize the 7 daily log as part of your job every day? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : And how do you utilize it? 10 MS. : To make sure I key the inmate 11 out that's out of the institution. So account 12 for how many inmates I keyed out. That's what 13 I use it for in R&D. 14 MR. : Okay. And you're not sure 15 what shift you worked but you believe that you 16 worked in R&D between 8:00 and 4:00 or 12:00 17 and 8:00? 18 MS. : 8:00 to 4:00 or maybe - I was 19 only working two shifts at that time. I'm 20 doing 12:00 to 8:00 now. But it might have 21 been 8:00 to 4:00 or 2:00 to 10:00. One of 22 those two hours. Between those two shifts. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Because at one point, I only 25 strictly worked the evening shift, so. EFTA00115217 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MR. : When inmates leave through 2 R&D, do you normally see them leaving through 3 R&D? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you recall having a 6 conversation with Reyes at all? 7 MS. : I couldn't tell you if I 8 spoke to that man or not. I speak to so many 9 inmates, I don't know. 10 MR. : Well, the better question is, 11 if you (Indiscernible *00:48:06) -. 12 MS. : I couldn't even tell you what 13 he looks like. 14 MR. : That's my next question. So 15 you wouldn't happen to know who Reyes - what -. 16 MS. : I would only know who he is 17 by ID-ing him, his name and his number and hi; 18 ID card when he comes on down. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : There's so many inmates in 21 here. I don't know. 22 MR. : Now when did you become aware 23 of Reyes being moved from the MCC? Officially 24 become aware. 25 MS. : I think when he spoke about - EFTA00115218 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 when they - when it was, you know, rumored that 2 the inmate, "Oh, they put him in a cell by 3 himself," and when I heard about that, you 4 know, it was like, "Oh, well, no, his actual, 5 his bunkie just didn't come back from court." 6 MR. : When did you hear about this? 7 Was it the same day? Was it in the evening? 8 MS. : No, it was around the time of 9 when all the commotion was going on after his 10 passing. 11 MR. : So this is the next day. 12 MS. : Pretty much, yeah. 13 MR. : Do you recall if there was 14 any conversation in regards to -. 15 MR. : What is the day of his 16 passing, the day after August 9th I think is 17 what you mean. Is that what you mean? 18 MS. : No, like, during the time he 19 passed, you know. You know, a lot of people 20 were saying, speculating though, he was a 21 suicidal person, he was placed in a cell by 22 himself and that's when, you know, it was like, 23 "No, well, he did have a bunkie." His cell 24 mate went out to court and that's when we all 25 became aware of, you know, who his cell mate EFTA00115219 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was. 2 MR. : And what conversations 3 were had with regards to the cell mate and 4 leaving for court and not coming back at that 5 time? 6 MS. : I don't think anyone was 7 pretty much aware that that was his cell mate 8 that didn't come back, so I don't - it was just 9 that the conversation was, "Oh, he was placed 10 in a cell by himself," That was what was 11 speculated. 12 MR. : Now, working in R&D, when 13 inmates do not come back from court, does R&D 14 then notify custody that these people didn't 15 come back? How does that work? 16 MS. : The Control Center tracks who 17 got keyed out. The Lieutenant, they'll track 18 who got keyed out and that's primarily it. 19 MR. : So R&D never contacts 20 either Control or the Housing Unit or the 21 Lieutenant saying, "Hey, these are people that 22 went out and these are people that came back. 23 These people are not coming back." 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : So R&D would not have EFTA00115220 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 notified, for instance, the SHU Saying Reyes 2 didn't come back? 3 MS. : They would be - not unless 4 they called us to say they had a bad count or 5 they had a miscount or something or maybe the 6 inmate left to court and didn't come back, but 7 no. 8 MR. : Okay. Because they - 9 lot of people have told us they usually get 10 calls from R&D saying, "Hey, this guy didn't 11 come back." That's -. 12 MS. : There are times that we do - 13 like if an inmate has property upstairs, we 14 might say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming 15 back, pack up his property." 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : There have been times, yes. 18 MR. : But in this case, with 19 him being pre-removed, there would have been no 20 notification that would have been made by R&D 21 saying, "He didn't come back?" 22 MS. : Not if we didn't need to, no. 23 MR. : No? So it would only be 24 a need be basis, not - because a lot of them 25 were saying, like, "Hey, he was pre-removed but EFTA00115221 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 we don't know if he's actually, you know, 2 definitely removed and not coming back until 3 about 4:00 p.m. 4 MS. : Right. That is true. And 5 not even 4:00 p.m. because there are times that 6 the judges, the courts are late. Some inmates 7 don't come back until 7:00, 8 o'clock at night. 8 MR. : Well, they did clarify 9 that. They said, "Usually until 4:00 p.m. and 10 as late as 8:00 p.m." 11 MS. : Right. 12 MR. : But in those instances 13 though, R&D doesn't contact whomever and say, 14 "Hey, this guy didn't come back." Or is it -. 15 MS. : The only people that would 16 keep track of that would be the Control Center 17 and the Lieutenant's office. 18 MR. : Okay, so 19 MS. : You know, we key them out and 20 whatever we key out, we send down to the 21 Control Center so the Control Center has a copy 22 of who was keyed out and they kind of go in the 23 system and check and see if the inmates were 24 keyed out. It's like a checks and balance for 25 the institution because you might have an EFTA00115222 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 inmate on the list showing that he left, but 2 he's not keyed out of the system. So there's 3 supposed to be like a checks and balance for us 4 upstairs as well. 5 MR. : Okay. So, when people 6 argue that they didn't know that Reyes wasn't 7 definitely coming back, how do they determine 8 and at what point do they determine, "He's not 9 back, Epstein needs a new cell mate?" 10 MS. : If they don't know he needs a 11 cell mate, nobody would know, nobody would -. 12 MR. : But if they know he needs 13 a cell mate, at what point do they say, "Yeah, 14 Reyes isn't back, we need to get him a new cell 15 mate?" 16 MS. : I couldn't tell you because 17 you don't know if that inmate - if you don't 18 know that inmate is coming back, you don't know 19 to say, "Hey, so and so needs a cell mate." 20 And if you don't know, you just don't know. 21 MR. : Okay. So, at what point 22 should Control then at some point though call 23 the SHU And say, "Reyes isn't coming back?" 24 MS. : If the count is not bad, they 25 wouldn't know to call them and say - they EFTA00115223 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 wouldn't say that, no. 2 MR. : So the SHU very well may 3 never have been contacted or would have been 4 contacted saying, "Reyes isn't coming back, 5 consider him gone." 6 MS. : Correct. 7 MR. : Okay. So they would have 8 only known that based upon doing rounds and 9 counts is what you're saying? 10 MS. : Right. But if they don't 11 know that he needs a cell mate, because I don't 12 believe there was any notification that another 13 individual had to be placed in a cell with him 14 so, nobody would know that. Even if you are 15 making rounds and counting your unit, you 16 wouldn't know that we need - if there's no 17 notification. 18 MR. : Well, notifications were 19 made and the people are saying that they passed 20 it along to other shifts saying, "Yes, he's 21 required to have a cell mate." However, 22 they're saying, "Reyes is gone, possibly not 23 returning. Make sure you get him a bunkie if 24 he doesn't." So it's kind of like, at what 25 point does it determine -- EFTA00115224 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Hm. 2 MR. : -- when is Reyes not 3 getting a bunkie - when is Reyes not coming 4 home, coming back. 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : We've also been told by a 7 number of people though, they say, "R&D would 8 call us to say, `Yeah, Reyes isn't coming 9 back,'" but to you, you're saying, "No, that 10 doesn't happen. We don't call SHU, we wouldn't 11 have called them to say Reyes -." 12 MS. : It's a possibility we could 13 have called, but then sometimes we don't call. 14 You know, if there's a miscount, there would be 15 no reason for us to call, we would just key the 16 inmate out. Sometimes they'll call us back and 17 say, "Hey, inmate so and so went out to court, 18 is he coming back?" Some units will call us 19 and ask. 20 MR. : So they'll call you 21 rather than the other way around. 22 MS. : Sometimes they'll call us, 23 yep. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MS. : But the only way they'll know EFTA00115225 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 that the inmate might - and then, because of 2 the shift change, you might have an officer 3 from these specific set of hours and then now 4 you have a new officer coming in at these 5 specific set of hours. They won't know who 6 went out to court unless they read their court 7 list or they look at their log, they probably 8 wouldn't know. And if they're doing a count 9 and their count is what it's supposed to be, 10 they won't know. 11 MR. : So you're a very unique 12 person that we're talking to as both - has both 13 sets of knowledge with the fact that you've 14 worked with custody as well as non-custody and 15 you know how these things work when people are 16 removed. If the people in the SHU knew, and 17 let's say, let's just for this example, say 18 everybody in the SHU knows -- 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : -- that Epstein is 21 required to have a cell mate. Reyes leaves at 22 8:30, he has a pre-removal. At what time do 23 you believe they should have reassigned a new 24 cell mate to Epstein? 25 MS. : Well, if they knew that he EFTA00115226 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 was a pre-removal, then they would be trying to 2 work on that immediately as soon as possible. 3 MR. : So if -. 4 MS. : But that's if they knew. 5 MR. : So if they knew, let's 6 say -. 7 MS. : And if that was what was 8 required. 9 MR. : Let's say the OIC 10 absolutely knows he's WAB likely -- 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- not to return. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : Do you believe that he 15 should have immediately then started working on 16 a new cell mate? 17 MS. : He would notify the Lieutenant 18 know, "Hey, move -" - that's what he would do - 19 20 MR. : And if -. 21 MS. -- if that was what was 22 required. 23 MR. : So and if their arguments 24 are, let's say the Lieutenants and the OICs are 25 arguing, "That's premature, he could always EFTA00115227 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 return. So we pass it on to the next shift 2 saying -." 3 MS. : Well, it is premature if you 4 don't know that the inmate is not coming back. 5 MR. : In this case though, if 6 he's WAB, do you believe it's still premature? 7 MS. : No, if he is WAB, but looking 8 at this, I don't know. 9 MR. : No, no, no. 10 MS. : But -. 11 MR. : I'm just saying -- 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : -- if he was WAB. 14 MS. : If he was 15 MR. : So if the OIC is saying, 16 "Yeah, he was WAB, he had his brown paper bag, 17 he had all of his stuff." 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : And so think of that 20 let's say that's what happened. 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : At that point, do you 23 think it's still premature or you think at time 24 it's appropriate? 25 MS. : No, if it was - okay. If it EFTA00115228 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 was known that this inmate was leaving and he 2 wasn't coming back and if it was known that 3 this individual needed to have someone else in 4 the cell with him, then yes, at that time, it 5 would be required to replace or move him in a 6 cell with somebody else. So, yeah. 7 MR. : So when you're saying 8 "known" though, so, I mean, known that he's 9 WAB, so does that -. 10 MS. : Known that he's WAB and also 11 known that this individual requires a cell mate 12 at all time, cannot be housed alone. Now, 13 there are some inmates that have to rec in cell 14 alone and there are signs on their doors and 15 there are some inmates that might be required 16 to have a cell mate. But if there's no 17 notification, and I work a unit and this is not 18 my normal unit and I'm working this unit and 19 I'm just filling in here and there and I'm 20 working and I don't know and there's nothing 21 placed on the walls that state that or on this 22 inmate's - on the door or maybe on my 23 clipboard, I wouldn't know that. 24 MR. : No, no, no. So what I'm 25 saying, and I'm not talking about - I think EFTA00115229 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 you're probably specifically talking about like 2 Tova and Michael Thomas. I'm talking about in 3 the morning at 8:38 a.m., prior to that time -- 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : -- they get a court list, 6 WAB, the OIC says, "Yeah, he's WAB, he's likely 7 not to return, he's got his bag, you know, I'm 8 taking him down, I'm giving him off." I know, 9 he says, "I know Epstein is required to have a 10 cell mate." 11 MS. : Oh, well, if he knows it. 12 MR. : But, is it a legitimate 13 argument in your opinion to say, "Placing 14 Epstein with a new cell mate is premature 15 because Reyes could return." Is that a valid 16 argument? 17 MS. : Well, based on what you just 18 said, knowing -- 19 MR. : With WAB and with knowing 20 21 MS. : -- knowing -- 22 MR. : -- Epstein requires, 23 right. 24 MS. : -- that he's WAB, that would 25 not be premature because he's leaving. EFTA00115230 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : Now, if for some reason it 3 gets canceled and they say, "Hey, we're not 4 moving this inmate, we're going to move him at 5 a later time," because those things do happen. 6 His trip - he got canceled. But knowing that 7 he's going to be leaving, I don't think that 8 that would be premature, no. 9 MR. : So if he leaves at 8:38 10 in the morning and the OIC shift ends at 2:00 11 p.m., does that - is there 12 MS. : 4:00. 13 MR. : -- would he know that 14 that trip got canceled? I guess the way I 15 would be asking, he knows the guy left at 8:38 16 WAB and, I guess, by that time, I would think 17 by 2:00 p.m., if a trip got canceled they would 18 know, correct? 19 MS. : Yeah, because the inmate 20 would have went back upstairs. 21 MR. : Right. So 22 MS. : He would have went back to 23 the unit. 24 MR. : -- how often do inmates 25 that go WAB and their trips don't get canceled, EFTA00115231 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 how often do those inmates actually return? 2 MS. : Oh, they go upstairs 3 immediately. 4 MR. : No, no, no. So I'm 5 saying, if Reyes is listed as WAB and he left 6 at 8:30 in the morning, his trip didn't get 7 canceled by 2:00 p.m. because he never came 8 back upstairs. How often do the WAB inmates 9 actually come back to the institution? 10 MS. : It has happened with inmates 11 going on an airlift. The Marshals take inmates 12 all the way out of the institution and then 13 have to bring them all the way back. It has 14 happened. 15 MR. : And let's say if -- 16 MS. : On occasion. 17 MR. : -- out of 100 -- 18 MS. : I'll say -. 19 MR. : WABs. 20 MS. : I'll say about, if I had to 21 count, maybe about - it's happened, it's 22 happened. 23 MR. : But I mean, does it 24 happen like very random and seldomly or does it 25 happen like, ah, one out of five times this EFTA00115232 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 happens? Or are we talking about like one out 2 100 or one of 1,000? 3 MS. : I'll say maybe like 10 out of 4 100. 5 MR. : So about 10 percent of 6 the time it does happen? 7 MS. : It has happened, yep. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. Yep. 10 MR. : So 10 percent of the 11 time? All right. 12 MS. : It has happened. 13 MR. : So then 14 MS. : It might be something with 15 the airlift, the paperwork is not right. 16 MR. : So then -- 17 MS. : The airlift 18 MR. : -- with keeping that in 19 mind that 10 percent of the time that has 20 happened, then do you believe that is slightly 21 a valid argument to say, "Yeah, we know that he 22 needs a new cell mate but we don't think it's 23 appropriate to do it in this shift, it should 24 be done on the next shift when we verify he's 25 in fact not coming back." EFTA00115233 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 MS. : Yeah. I would say that is 2 appropriate. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Because you don't know. You 5 just don't know. Anything is subject to 6 change. So I would say that is appropriate. 7 MR. : Okay. Now it's different 8 with, you're saying airlift. Now we're talking 9 about pre-remove specifically -- 10 MS. : Well, airlifts -- 11 MR. : -- for court. 12 MS. -- could be pre-removed. 13 MR. : But what I'm saying is 14 MS. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- it's WAB because the 16 person is going to court. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Nothing to do with 19 transports getting messed up. 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : If this inmate is WAB 22 going to court, how often do the inmates going 23 to court WAB actually return? 24 MS. : They mostly go. 25 MR. : So is it like maybe one EFTA00115234 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in 100? 2 MS. : Maybe one in 100 that might 3 have came back, but most of the time they go. 4 MR. : So even one in 100 is 5 like, yeah, no, they're pretty much always 6 gone? 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So then that argument of 9 10 MS. : It got to be something 11 drastic that they might have come back, but 12 most of the time they go. 13 MR. : So that argument that we 14 needed to wait until verification, that really 15 doesn't hold weight then if they know he was 16 going to court WAB. 17 MS. : If they know he was going to 18 court WAB, yeah. 19 MR. : Then the argument doesn't 20 hold weight? 21 MS. : It's a catch 22 because I've 22 seen so many things that have happened that you 23 might think somebody is gone and they bring him 24 back. 25 MR. : Sure. But it sounds like EFTA00115235 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 2 MS. : He might get on that side and 3 something might come up in his paperwork where 4 they're like, "Uh-oh, we got a new case, we got 5 a new charge. Oh, we're not transferring him. 6 We got to sort this out." I mean, it has 7 happened where somebody has come back to the 8 jail, but most of the time, they do go. 9 MR. : And it sounds like that's 10 extremely rare 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- circumstance. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : All right. 15 MS. : Yeah. 16 MR. : So at that point, do you 17 think that they should have taken action 18 immediately if they knew it was WAB? 19 MR. : WAB going to court. 20 MR. : Going to court. Knowing the 21 fact that Epstein needed a cell mate. We know 22 Reyes left, Epstein needed a cell mate. The 23 OIC and the SHU officers knew that he needed a 24 cell mate. Should they have taken action 25 immediately? EFTA00115236 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Maybe they should have 2 notified their supervisor. 3 MR. : Who would they have notified 4 if this -. 5 MS. : The SHU Lieutenant and let 6 them know that, "Hey -." 7 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:03:51) 8 no SHU Lieutenant (Indiscernible *01:03:52). 9 Should it be the Ops Lieutenant (Indiscernible 10 *01:03:55) Lieutenant? 11 MS. : The Ops or the Acting 12 Lieutenant notify, "Hey, we got bunk inmate so 13 up with so and so, he can't be housed by 14 himself." 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : But, like I said, 17 communication around here is not at its best. 18 MR. : Uh-huh. 19 MS. : So what should have happened, 20 what should have taken place, might not 21 necessarily happen because everybody doesn't 22 know everything that's going on around here. 23 MR. : Hm. 24 MS. : Everybody does not 25 communicate the way that they should, so you EFTA00115237 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 might know it, but just because you know it, 2 you might assume I know it and we're working 3 together. Not necessarily true. 4 MR. : Sure. And yeah, we would 5 only go off of what people tell us directly -- 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : Like, "Did you know 8 this?" "Yes, I knew it." "Okay." 9 MS. : Right. 10 MR. : You know, so 11 MS. : Because it's not - like, if I 12 was working up there, that's not my normal 13 unit. If I was working up there, I would not 14 know that. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MS. : You know, if I'm coming from 17 another department and that's not my steady 18 post, I would not know that. 19 MR. : Absolutely. 20 MS. : So, what should happen -. 21 MR. : Yeah, and that's why 22 we're listing people like OIC, SHU Lieutenant, 23 Ops Lieutenant, Activities Lieutenant, these 24 people that -. 25 MS. : Or maybe Psychology. EFTA00115238 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : You know, so it's hard to say 3 yes and no, but if, you know, someone knew, 4 then yes. But everybody that works in this 5 institution, we're all over the place 6 sometimes. We don't know, we don't know 7 everything about every unit. So that's the 8 unfortunate part. 9 MR. : Do you recall anyone calling 10 R&D looking for the status of Reyes that day? 11 MS. : I don't remember, no. I'm 12 not going - I don't remember that, no. 13 MR. : What was your question? 14 MS. : Did she recall anyone from 15 the SHU calling inquiring the status of Reyes 16 that day. 17 MR. : All right. 18 MR. : Do you have anything else on 19 that topic before -. 20 MR. : I don't think so, we kind 21 of beat it. 22 MR. : Now, you worked Control 23 August 10th night? 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : As a CO in Control, when EFTA00115239 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 would you be notified that an inmate is being 2 removed? 3 MS. : When would I be notified -- 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MS. : -- that an inmate is being 6 removed? 7 MR. : Yeah, if you're working in 8 Control. 9 MS. : Well, that would be -. 10 MR. : Well, she just said R&D 11 doesn't call them to tell them. 12 MS. : No, we give them - we send 13 them paperwork. So, you have a Control two 14 number person in the Control Center that 15 verifies our key out moves against our 16 paperwork we send them. So this is what the 17 Control Center would use as well to track -- 18 MR. : A daily log? 19 MS. : -- to track the moves and 20 make sure that these individuals are keyed out. 21 So, now as a Control Center Officer, you might 22 call as the number two, I mean, I said the 23 number one because the number two person does 24 it. The number two person, which is an 25 accounts and assignment person, they would call EFTA00115240 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 - this is primarily on day watch and evening 2 watch because there's no movement on morning 3 watch, not unless it's an emergency, but you're 4 not moving nobody on morning watch. So on day 5 watch and evening watch, if you see that 6 inmates were moved around or a counselor calls 7 you in Control and say, "Hey, I'm moving inmate 8 so and so from this unit to this unit," then as 9 a Control Center Officer, what I would do, I'm 10 not going to say what everybody else would do, 11 I would call over the radio, "Hey, unit 12 officers, if you lost an inmate or you gained 13 an inmate, call Control and verify your base 14 count." And I would say - they would say, "Oh, 15 inmate so and so left and I have 87." Or, they 16 might give me a wrong count. I'm like, "No, 17 that's bad, you need to check your base count, 18 verify who left the unit." But that's what I 19 would do. But most often times, the Control 20 Center Officer would look at this and see who's 21 moved and verify it with an E-1 and make sure 22 everything is accurate. 23 MR. : So once they are notified, 24 what would the Control Officer update that you 25 wanted? EFTA00115241 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : We have what we call the 2 running board. So, with a running board, you 3 have the starting base of one unit and then the 4 ending base of the unit. So if an inmate went 5 out to the hospital, might have been 86, he 6 went out to hospital, 87, he came - I mean, 85, 7 he came back now, his base is back to 86. So, 8 it would be -. 9 MR. : Nothing like this. This is 10 the -- 11 MS. : Uh-huh. Yeah. 12 MR. : This is the E-1 document, is 13 this what you're talking about? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. No, that's an E-1, 15 I'm talking about a running board. It's just a 16 dummy document we create just to track all the 17 moves to like a paper to just verify the counts 18 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. -- basically checks and 21 balance. So like, if I see that this inmate 22 was moved from five, he was pre-remove, and 23 that unit count was 85, I would just write, 24 "Inmate pre-removed," and I would have a paper 25 log of what that unit count should be. EFTA00115242 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : Because even my paper log 3 might be accurate but my computer log might be 4 wrong because this person might not have keyed 5 the inmate out. 6 MR. : So, let's talk about that. 7 Has there been situations where inmates get 8 moved around and not get keyed out? 9 MS. : Yeah. That has happened. 10 MR. : How does that happen? Isn't 11 there balance and checks to make sure that 12 nothing like that happens? 13 MS. : There are supposed to be 14 balance and checks, yes. But sometimes people 15 move inmates and they fail to report to maybe 16 the officer or they fail to notify the Control, 17 "I'm moving inmate from this unit to this 18 unit," or something might happen on a unit, an 19 inmate might get locked up and you're in the 20 Control Center, you know, you're doing whatever 21 you hear, an emergency on a unit, you don't 22 know what's going on, you don't know if the 23 inmate is going out to the hospital until 24 somebody actually physically calls you and say, 25 "Hey, I've got an inmate that's (Indiscernible EFTA00115243 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 *01:10:14)," if you're not looking at the 2 camera, you see them moving this inmate from 3 this unit and walking him into SHU and you'll 4 call that unit, "Hey, you got one locked - who 5 got locked up?" You might call the Unit 6 Officer and ask those questions. So, it has 7 happened. 8 MR. : Whose responsibility would it 9 be if they're moving an inmate, to key it in? 10 MS. : To key it in? Depending on 11 what type of move it is. If it's a unit to 12 unit move, that would be the Unit Management, 13 Unit Team. If an inmate is getting locked up 14 from the unit and going to SHU, the Control 15 Center Officer might move that unit, move that 16 inmate from the unit to SHU or SHU might key 17 that inmate into SHU. So, I just depends who 18 does it. 19 MR. : So, and it can be one of 20 those things that in a situation, let's say al 21 inmate gets moved. The SHU Officer can be 22 like, "Ah, no Control will do it." And Control 23 Lieutenant will be like, "No, the SHU will do 24 it." Is it one person that's actually 25 responsible to make sure that it gets keyed in? EFTA00115244 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MS. : Well, a lot of times things 2 happen. Like I said, around here, you might 3 have a Lieutenant go to a unit and then walk an 4 inmate out and the inmate gets locked up. Or 5 you might have an inmate that's suicidal and he 6 gets placed on suicide watch so now he's not in 7 the unit, he's in suicide watch. Or you might 8 have an inmate that was taken off of suicide 9 watch, might be put in a housing unit or SHU, 10 you don't know unless somebody notifies you 11 because when you're in the Control, you're 12 answering phones, you're looking at a keypad, 13 you might be looking up and down but you're not 14 constantly on the camera so you won't know 15 unless somebody actually notifies you and say, 16 "Hey, we're moving inmate so and so." So, a 17 lot of times, you just have to - if you got an 18 inmate that you received a new inmate, call 19 Control, verify your base because you won't 20 always know everything. 21 MR. : So you're saying it should 22 have been on the SHU Officer to make sure that, 23 "Hey, listen, this inmate is being moved." Did 24 she even notify Control, "Hey, listen." 25 MS. : If the officer of a unit EFTA00115245 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 knows that his inmate got locked up, he's 2 supposed to be calling Control saying, "I've 3 got an inmate that's locked up, he went to 4 SHU." SHU now needs to be calling Control, 5 "Hey, I got one, so and so on my base count." 6 Everybody is supposed to be calling. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Everybody should be calling, 9 not just -. 10 MR. : But you did just say 11 though that they - like for instance, SHU. SHU 12 can call Control and say, "Hey, I just want to 13 verify my base, what do you got?" 14 MS. : No, they wouldn't say, "I 15 want to verify my base, what do you got?" You 16 would say, "I want to verify my base, I have 17 87." And then Control would say, "No, that's 18 good, no, that's bad." 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : So now, as the officer, what 21 I would do, I would go around counting my 22 inmates in my unit and I would look at my 23 roster and see who went out to court. But 24 that's what I would do. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00115246 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MS. : I can't say what everybody 2 else would do. 3 MR. : Yeah, no, and trust me, 4 we've talked to a lot of people and everybody 5 does things differently. 6 MS. : Yes. So. 7 MR. : That's why we're trying 8 to figure out -- 9 MS. : I like knowing -- 10 MR. : -- should they -. 11 MS. -- what I need to know on my 12 unit. I'm just nosy like that. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 14 MS. : So, I want to know what's 15 going on, who is in my unit, who is coming out 16 of my unit, you know, so, I'm verifying my 17 stuff on my own. 18 MR. : Okay. No, that's a good 19 way to do it. So, are you aware of though 20 anybody calling, for instance, Control and 21 getting control? Somehow, however crafty that 22 they use their wordings to actually give them 23 the base count? 24 MS. : I've never heard. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00115247 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 2 I know of. I'm not going to say it hasn't 3 happened, but I don't know. 4 MR. : Right, right. 5 MR. : I'm going to show you some 6 documents. Before that, any document that I 7 show you, I'm going to ask you to initial and 8 date on top. 9 MS. : Uh-huh. 10 MR. : You're not attesting to it, 11 it's just to show that that's a document that 12 we -- 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- showed you. 15 MS. : Right here? 16 MR. : Yeah. Just anywhere on top 17 is fine. 7/15/21. 18 MS. : I want to work with you guys. 19 MR. : Well, it sounds like you 20 got the qualification with those degrees. And 21 with the knowledge, we do a ton of BOP stuff. 22 MR. : This one too. Just the top. 23 MS. : It's got to be off the 24 record. 25 MR. : So, are you familiar with the EFTA00115248 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 E-ls? Control documents? The first one that 2 I'm going to show you is this would be for 3 August 9th at 5:00 a.m. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Right? This is the E-1 6 document controlling - Control document. The 7 SHU shows 77 inmates. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Now, I'm going to show you 10 the daily log. Are you aware of the 11 Lieutenant's log? 12 MS. : Uh-huh. 13 MR. : Inmate movements? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Okay. Now this is the day 16 watch, document is the day watch Lieutenant's 17 log for August 9th. We can start off, we'll 18 look at the inmate movements, it shows that -. 19 MR. : You need to start at 77 20 to match up with that -- 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. 5:00 a.m. 23 MR. : So, it says 77 at the 5:00 24 a.m. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115249 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : It matches up -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- at 77, when they did the 4 count at 8:00 a.m. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : It's still at 77 with five in 7 (Indiscernible *01:15:25). 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Now, this shows at 8:38 a.m., 10 we can see Reyes was removed. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Right? Pre-remove? 13 MS. : Uh-huh. 14 MR. : The count comes down to 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. : -- 76. Now the next movement 17 out of the SHU that we see is at 3:15 p.m. It 18 says, "Inmate Fernandez." 19 MS. Uh-huh. Wait a minute. He 20 MR. : So, yes, there is a -- 21 MS. : Placed own dry cell. 22 MR. : -- confusion on that. 23 MS. : Placed on dry cell from SHU? 24 MR. : Yeah. So let's look at the - 25 so, where do you (Indiscernible *01:15:58) EFTA00115250 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 understand, where is the dry cell? 2 MS. : I thought it was in SHU. 3 MR. : Okay. So let's look at the 4 statement up here. On top it says, "Inmate 5 Fernandez on dry cell with staff watch and 6 R&D." 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : Does that clarify it for you? 9 MS. : Okay, okay. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : So at this point, inmate 13 Fernandez is removed and the count comes down 14 to -- 15 MS. : Uh-huh. 16 MR. -- 75. 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Okay. Now we're looking at 19 the 5:00 p.m. count for August 9th. 20 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 21 MR. : Or 4:00 p.m., sorry. 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count for August 24 9th. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115251 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. It shows 76 -- 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- starting. Reyes is 4 removed, right? Reyes is removed. Epstein is 5 sitting in attorney conference? 6 MS. : Uh-huh. Yes, that's right 7 here. 8 MR. : Right here? And inmate 9 Fernandez is removed. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : But it still shows 75. It 12 should have been 74. 13 MS. : Uh-huh. This is - they got 14 76. This is 4 o'clock. Did they say 15 something? 16 MR. : And this is removed inmate. 17 MR. : Keep on showing her the 18 other one though 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- because that's not 21 really that -- 22 MR. : Give me Fernando's. 23 MR. : -- that's not really that 24 eye opening because that's 3:15 to 4:00. Now 25 show her the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight count. EFTA00115252 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 MR. : The next one is over here 2 too, there's some inmates that moved in and 3 out. Now let's go to the 10:00 p.m. count. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : And go over the inmates 6 that - so you can follow the numbers. 7 MR. : So just look at -. 8 MS. : Pull my chair closer so I can 9 see that. 10 MR. : Yeah. Is that better? 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Now, this is the evening 13 watch document. The other sheet now if you 14 start looking at inmate Hemmingway, 6:34 p.m., 15 he's removed from the SHU, goes to ES. 16 MS. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : Right? And the next one is 18 inmate Reed gets moved from ZA to GS. 19 MS. : Uh-huh. 20 MR. : So, now we lost two more 21 inmates, that's 73. 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : Then we gain two inmates, the 24 SHU gains two inmates, 8:21, Felix and Williams 25 from ZA to suicide watch in the SHU. EFTA00115253 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : Right? 3 MS. : Wait a minute. From ZA 4 MR. : Sorry, sorry. 5 MS. : No, so he came from SHU. 6 MR. : From SHU to suicide watch, so 7 now we are down to 71. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Right? And then, we have 10 Garcia. 11 MS. : Wait, I'm sorry. Hold on. 12 This is 70, that's one, that's another one, 13 (Indiscernible *01:18:24), okay, that's R&D. 14 One, two - okay, I see why it's two. Okay, 15 that's two, right? 16 MR. : That's two. And then, you 17 see -. 18 MS. : So it's the suicide watch, 19 right? 20 MR. : Yeah. And you see one inmate 21 was gained -- 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- Garcia Penas (Phonetic Sp. 24 *01:18:37) moved over. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115254 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. : I'm going to show you the 2 10:00 p.m. count. 3 MS. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. count on the 5 E-1, what does that show? 6 MS. : 73. 7 MR. : Okay. On the last couple of 8 pages, can you find the one for ZA? ZA would 9 be the SHU, right, the count slip? 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : What does it show? 12 MS. : 73 at 10:00. Uh-huh. 13 MR. : But 73 what? 14 MS. : Plus one. 15 MR. : What does that plus one mean? 16 MS. : That means somebody was 17 there, plus one. So it's somebody that's there 18 but he's, I guess he's not accounted for but 19 he's there. 20 MR. : But can you, by looking at 21 this document, can you figure out who that is? 22 MR. : So does that mean, what 23 you're saying is 73 plus one is actually 74 24 that they're thinking that's in there? 25 MS. : Uh-huh. Not unless - well, EFTA00115255 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 normally what it is, is -. 2 MR. : Before you start asking 3 that that question, just show her the other 4 thing so that she's not going to try to figure 5 this out backwards. Let her reverse engineer 6 it. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And then explain to her 9 what happened and then let her answer those 10 questions. 11 MR. : I'm going to show you the 12 12:00 p.m. count too. This is 12:00 a.m. 13 count, there's August 10th -- 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : 12:00 a.m. count. Now, were 16 you working in Control at that time? 17 MR. : That was when 18 you said the -- 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Ops Lieutenant 21 actually took the count, but you were on duty 22 at that time. 23 MR. : Do you recall that at all? 24 MS. : I don't remember at the 25 moment, but I know I worked in Control that EFTA00115256 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 99 1 2 3 day. I know she came in there and she took one count. MR. : Were you present when she 4 took that count? 5 MR. : I think you start at 6 12:00 a.m. in Control, right? 7 MS. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : You're 12:00 a.m. 9 MR. : 12:00 a.m. until -. 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : So, on this one 12 MR. : So by looking at that, 13 can you tell who it was that took the count? 14 That's the E-1. 15 MS. : That's somebody's signature. 16 That's not - that's somebody else. That might 17 be her signature. 18 MR. -: . - 19 MS. : Uh-huh. It might be her 20 signature, but that's not -- 21 MR. : So we can tell you -- 22 MS. : -- the person that prepared 23 it. 24 MR. : - took 25 that count. We'll just let you - so she took EFTA00115257 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 the count. 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : Do you remember being 4 present that day when she was there taking the 5 count? 6 MS. : I was present, yes. 7 MR. : All right. Now show her 8 the numbers verse what the counts looks at. 9 MR. : So, E-1 shows 72. 10 MS. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : What does the ZA show? 12 MS. : 73. 13 MR. : You see a discrepancy? 14 MS. : Uh-huh. 15 MR. : Is that a good count to you? 16 MS. : Huh-uh. 17 MR. : Do you recall 18 mentioning the fact that there was a 19 discrepancy in the count? 20 MS. : I don't recall any of that, 21 no. 22 MR. : Do you recall her -. 23 MS. : Because I didn't prepare the 24 count, so, I didn't - if I'm the Control 25 Officer, I'm Control one, so my second body is EFTA00115258 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 the one that's preparing the counts and taking 2 the counts and viewing the count slips with the 3 Lieutenant is not there. I'm in charge of the 4 radios, they keys, you know, like a count and 5 making sure that all my equipment is accounted 6 for, letting staff know, "Hey, we're on duty." 7 We got to do a pre-announcement and going over 8 equipment and stuff, all those type of things, 9 so no, I didn't - I wouldn't be aware of this 10 if I didn't prepare it, no. 11 MR. : So what happened? Was 12 figured out - and this is where 13 we were hoping you can help us a little bit. 14 And she figured out that Fernandez, who was 15 placed on dry cell at 3:15, was never keyed out 16 of the SHU. 17 MS. : Ah. 18 MR. : However, they're still 19 reporting - because he was never keyed out, 20 they're still reporting 73, 73, 73 -- 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : -- although there's only 23 72 inmates in the SHU. 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. someho', EFTA00115259 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 figures out, you guys don't have 73, you've got 2 72 and then either she or someone in Control or 3 whomever, keys him out. 4 MS. Uh-huh. 5 MR. : And so what we want to 6 know is do you remember that happening or the 7 circumstances around that? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : No, you don't? Does this 10 tell you anything about if these counts were 11 conducted? The 4:00 p.m. and the 10:00 p.m. 12 and the 12:00 a.m.? 13 MS. : This just shows that this was 14 conducted. 15 MR. : No, not the E-ls, the 16 counts in the SHU. 17 MR. : Count slips. If the counts 18 were wrong. 19 MR. : So all of them are saying 20 73 all though there's only 72 people. 21 Fernandez leaves at 3:15. So knowing that you 22 work in SHU, you work in R&D -- 23 MS. : Uh-huh. 24 MR. : -- and also you can look 25 at the -. EFTA00115260 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 1 MS. : Well -. 2 MR. : So these R&D slips show 3 that there's one person in there. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Although - 6 MS. : This is 9 -. 7 MR. : Nine south. 8 MR. : So what does that mean? So 9 R&D, so on this here, the midnight one, right? 10 MR. : And also, just please 11 take note of the checks that are all over them. 12 There's no checks on these two. So, and that's 13 the 10:00 p.m. we're looking at. So, we're 14 just trying to piece this thing together. 15 MS. : Normally, I'm just going to, 16 for my experience, when I've had to plus a one, 17 it's because it's a WITSEC inmate that we could 18 not key in because only certain individuals 19 have the authority and capacity to key those 20 individuals in. So, if I got an inmate in SHU 21 that's a WITSEC and staff can't key him in 22 until maybe the Unit Manager of the WITSEC Unit 23 comes in and keys him in or whatever unit team 24 of the WITSEC Unit, we would plus that one 25 because that would show that that's the body EFTA00115261 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 that's there that we cannot account for but 2 he's there. That would have - I don't know 3 what this is. 4 MR. : Do you recognize whose 5 handwriting that is? The 9S plus one? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Do you know if it's yours 9 by chance? 10 MS. : No, that's -. 11 MR. : Definitely not yours? My 12 assumption is that was written at midnight, but 13 we still can't figure it out. That's what 14 we're still trying to figure out. We would 15 have thought that the plus one stuff would have 16 happened at the 10:00 p.m. count since we 17 believe that that's when Reyes was keyed in. 18 he was keyed in on the 10th for the 9th because 19 - not Reyes, I'm sorry, Fernandez. 20 MS. : Normally, when a Lieutenant 21 checks off the slips, it's because they're 22 verifying that it's the unit, it's the accurate 23 count, it's the accurate date, time and staff 24 signature print of two staff members. That's 25 normally how Lieutenant would mark off a count EFTA00115262 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 slip to verify that 2 MR. : I want to show - so does -. 3 MR. : Is that telling to you at 4 all that the fact that these aren't checked 5 off? 6 MS. : I don't know why they aren't 7 checked off. I couldn't tell you why, I don't 8 know. 9 MR. : But those plus ones, 10 aside from possibly a WITSEC type of thing, 11 would that make sense with whether it would be 12 a plus one on R&D and a plus one though on ZA? 13 MS. : Minus - not unless there - 14 the only thing I can gather is that they're 15 saying that this plus one is the inmate that's 16 still keyed to SHU but is sitting in R&D. 17 That's the only thing -. 18 MR. : And that would be my 19 assumption too. IS that they're saying there's 20 73 bodies in SHU plus one who's actually in 21 R&D. 22 MS. : Right. 23 MR. : But that 73 is still oft 24 so I guess what the question would be is, the 25 fact that they're using the number that Control EFTA00115263 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 has, although they only have 72 in their actual 2 housing unit. 3 MS. : Can I just -- 4 MR. : Absolutely. 5 MS. read this again. 6 MR. : It also tells us that 7 or I won't say what it tells us, but I just 8 want to know what it tells you. 9 MR. : Which one do you need? 10 MS. : Yeah, I don't see 11 MR. : It's the midnight one. 12 MS. : Okay, now you had gave me 13 you had another log. 14 MR. : The 5:00 p 15 MS. : Didn't you have two logs? 16 MR. : So there was another one, but 17 that's -. 18 MR. : There's the August 10th 19 log. Okay. 20 MR. : But I didn't show you the 21 August 10th. 22 MS. : No, you showed me something 23 with Lieutenant 24 MR. : I know, that's in one 25 MS. : Oh. EFTA00115264 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : -- but this is evening watch. 2 MS. : Oh, okay. 3 MR. : This -. 4 MS. : Oh, that's the same. Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. So -. 6 MS. : All right. I just want to 7 MR. : There's a day watch and 8 night. 9 MR. : You sure, you're getting 10 awful close. 11 MR. : I'm okay. Unless she says I 12 need it. 13 MR. : Would you like a piece? 14 MS. : Okay, so his ending was 72 15 and he has this guy up here and this is 10 16 o'clock. This is the 9:00. 17 MR. : So you want the 10:00 p.m. 18 count? 19 MS. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Here's the 10:00 p.m. count. 21 MS. : Okay. So this is the 10 22 o'clock count. Okay, so, he's not keyed into 23 R&D. So, this is where your plus one is. So 24 he's still showing in Special Housing but he's 25 in R&D during the 10 o'clock count. So this is EFTA00115265 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 what makes your 73. This is the 10 o'clock? 2 MR. : But is that also weird 3 though that this count cleared with an R&D 4 slip. R&D 1 that's never checked off. There's 5 nothing on the E-1 for R&D? 6 MS. : Hm, okay this is acting on 7 way before clock one. 8 MR. : Before clock one, the one 9 we initially showed you where -- 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- he's also never keyed 12 in. And it is our believe, per the person who 13 said that they keyed him in, it was done after 14 midnight. 15 MS. : Hm. 16 MR. : Are you allowed to count an 17 inmate that you can't see? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : If inmate Fernandez was moved 20 from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., who should have 21 counted him as part of their count slip? 22 MS. : At 3:15? 23 MR. : Yeah, he was moved at 3:15 24 and the 4:00 p.m. count was a SHU that should 25 have counted him on the count slip or was it EFTA00115266 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 supposed to be R&D? 2 MS. : Well, to be honest with you, 3 because I work in R&D and I'm going to tell you 4 what goes on, they drop inmates in there and 5 they don't - a lot of the times, staff - that's 6 why now we tell them, "Tell us what you're 7 bringing inmates down here for." Because they 8 would bring an inmate down and place that 9 inmate in a cell. You won't know because 10 you're busy dealing with the Marshals, you're 11 dealing whatever movement you have going on in 12 R&D and you won't know that they brought an 13 inmate down in a cell. So, it could work both 14 ways that, you know, maybe they figured they 15 were just going to place him down there, keep 16 him down there and then maybe bring him back 17 upstairs. So, it could have been a number of 18 things, but I just know from experience, 19 inmates have been brought into my R&D that we 20 weren't aware of and we realized, walking 21 around R&D, "Yeah, we got an inmate in here." 22 "What is he down here for?" So -. 23 MR. : So this, for me 24 personally, the E-1 isn't as concerning on the 25 4:00 p.m., although -- EFTA00115267 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : -- the count slip is. 3 Because the R&- it was so close to the 4:00 4 p.m. count. It's -- 5 MS. : So -. 6 MR. : -- to the 10:00, this is 7 where I start getting like -. 8 MS. : So, on -. 9 MR. : Because there is no R&D 10 count slip although there's an R&D count slip 11 in this one that's never checked off, but it 12 also has no E-1 notification. So that -. 13 MS. : And -. 14 MR. : And to me, it seems like 15 the count slips were created after the fact or 16 manipulated or deleted or something, I don't 17 know. 18 MS. : I don't know neither. 19 MR. : So let 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. : As he mentions 22 MS. : Wait a minute. I just want 23 to see. So at 4 o'clock the had 75. 24 MR. : But technically at that 25 point, they were missing three inmates. Reyes EFTA00115268 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 had gone, Fernandez was moved and Epstein was 2 sitting in attorney conference. 3 MR. : Yeah. And it doesn't -. 4 MS. : Well -. 5 MR. : For which -. 6 MS. : Okay, but where's attorney 7 conference? Oh, here it is. So, this is 8 attorney conference right here. This is the 9 counselor for attorney conference. 10 MR. : That would say, SATTY on top. 11 Okay. 12 MS. : Yes. So this is attorney 13 conference. 14 MR. : Right, that's the one. 15 MS. : This is all the inmates out 16 to court with Southern District. Is it? 17 MR. : So yeah, physically 18 present -- 19 MS. : So -. 20 MR. : -- in the SHU at 4:00 was 21 the 75 although -- 22 MS. : Right. 23 MR. : I mean 74. 24 MS. : Not (Indiscernible 25 *01:33:26). EFTA00115269 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 MR. : Although they reported 75 2 because Fernandez -- 3 MS. : Okay, well you -- 4 MR. : -- was (Indiscernible 5 *01:33:31). 6 MS. : -- Epstein accounted for in 7 attorney conference. But this is an out count. 8 MR. : Correct. 9 MS. : And he's keyed on the out 10 count and this is what shows where he is 11 actually sitting in key two at that time so 12 this shows that he's in attorney conference. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MS. : Because he's keyed out on the 15 out count to attorney conference. And what I 16 was expressing to you guys earlier about the 17 courts, how we used to do it, (Indiscernible 18 *01:34:01) maybe it's a couple (Indiscernible 19 *01:34:02). Okay, this is what we used to do 20 in R&D as far as the out count. So, this would 21 say the inmate outs court, name, register 22 number, what unit and cell he came from and how 23 many from whatever his unit is. So if we had 24 three out from that unit to court, it would be 25 three or whatever, however many numbers and EFTA00115270 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 this is how we would - this is what would show 2 in the system that the inmate went out to court 3 that day. 4 MR. : And that's an inmate you're 5 expecting back? 6 MS. : Right. 7 MR. : So if Reyes is not on there, 8 does that mean that Reyes is gone and you're 9 not expecting him back? 10 MS. : Well, if he was keyed out at 11 8 - what did that say, 8:33? 12 MR. : 8:38, yeah. 13 MS. : Then he wouldn't show up on 14 this as an out count because that means he's 15 keyed out. 16 MR. : He's gone, okay. 17 MS. : Right. So -. 18 MR. : So people that are going 19 to court that are expected to come back would 20 be on that sheet. 21 MS. : Right. But we don't - 22 MR. : But Reyes was not 23 expected to come back. 24 MS. : Right. And from the looks of 25 this, I didn't work that shift. That wasn't my EFTA00115271 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1_ 1 shift. 2 MR. : Yeah, no, and we didn't 3 believe it was. We're -. 4 MR. : You might have left 5 beforehand? 6 MS. : I might have left - this 7 might have been the day shift and I might have 8 worked the evening shift, so I might have 9 worked - I don't even know. But I just know 10 that I wasn't dealing with the courts, the 11 movement at that time, just from looking at the 12 out count. 13 MR. : Okay. So now that we know 14 that the count was off over here and that the 15 10:00 p.m. count, according to the Lieutenant's 16 log, says 72, but 10:00 p.m. says 73 plus one - 17 18 MS. : Uh-huh. 19 MR. : -- right, and now R&D 20 actually is reporting that there is an inmate 21 in there -- 22 MS. : Uh-huh. 23 MR. : -- except they're still 24 reporting 73 plus one. 25 MS. : Uh-huh. EFTA00115272 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : And then at midnight - where 2 is the - midnight it says 72 over here and the 3 count slip shows 73. What does that tell you 4 about the counts that were done in the SHU? 5 MR. : What he's asking, if 6 there's only 72 people in there and they're 7 reporting 73 and it just so happened to 8 coincide. And this one - and you need to know 9 that background information. 10 MS. : Okay, so this is what - 11 MR. : They reported 73 and the 12 Ops Lieutenant who took the count, found out it 13 was actually only 72, made the change and 14 changed Reye- and keyed Fernandez out. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : So what is asking 17 you is the fact that they reported 73 on all 18 these, does that indicate anything to you about 19 the counts if they were done or were they not 20 done? 21 MS. : Yeah, this looks like someone 22 wasn't paying attention because this - what 23 does this look like to you? 24 MR. : Well, that's what I was 25 going to ask. What is RA? That -. EFTA00115273 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MS. : RA is where that guy was 2 sitting at on dry cell. 3 MR. : Is that R&D? 4 MS. : Yes. So he was - so, because 5 it's now the 12 o'clock count and it's prior to 6 the count, they can go ahead and key him in 7 where he's actually assigned. So it seems that 8 during the 10 o'clock count, he was still keyed 9 to SHU so, what was it, plus one or something? 10 So now at 12 o'clock, because he wasn't keyed 11 there at 10 o'clock, they keyed him there now 12 before the 12 o'clock count which is correct 13 and accurate and what they should have done, 14 but now he's plus one - he's here where he 15 should be where he stated on this notification, 16 right, so that's accurate. But, if he's no 17 longer here, they should have been putting 18 what's here. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MS. : Because he's not plus one up 21 there no more. 22 MR. : Yeah. So this one is 23 clearly that they're off. These guys though, 24 are still even with that 73 plus one, it should 25 have been 72 plus one if they're trying to say, EFTA00115274 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 "We got one outside." It shouldn't be 73 plus 2 one. They're utilizing the same number it 3 looks like on the E-1. Somehow it seems that 4 they had that number, that base count number 5 and they knew, "We need - this is the number we 6 need to report, but also we got a plus one over 7 in R&D." 8 MS. : Right 9 MR. : So they're still off on 10 their count. Does that indicate to you that 11 they didn't actually conduct the count, they 12 just used the number that they thought they 13 were supposed to report? 14 MS. : It doesn't indicate that they 15 didn't count. 16 MR. : Because if they counted - 17 18 MS. : I -. 19 MR. : -- wouldn't they have the 20 right number? 21 MS. : Sometimes you can count stuff 22 23 MR. : But wouldn't it be really 24 coincidental if they miscount at the exact 25 number that they were supposed to actually EFTA00115275 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 provide? They definitely miscounted, but 2 there's 72 people in there and they just happen 3 to miscount exactly what the E-1 shows that 4 they were supposed to count. 5 MS. : Yeah. 6 MR. : It's coincidences and the 7 fact that it happened twice in a row, what does 8 that tell you? 9 MR. : No, three times in a row. 10 MR. : Three times. 11 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. : That's right. 13 MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. and 12:00 14 a.m. 15 MS. : I'm not going to answer that. 16 MR. : Well, based on your 17 experience, right? You're experience of 18 working in Control, working in R&D, what do you 19 think happened? Do you think that they did the 20 count or not? 21 MS. : I'm not going to answer that 22 one. 23 MR. : How would have they 24 gotten that number that they were supposed to 25 report? EFTA00115276 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MS. : By probably just looking in 2 their log and seeing, "Okay, when you take over 3 my post, oh, we got 72 guys. One is in R&D but 4 they still got him keyed to our unit." Based 5 on maybe what someone told them. 6 MR. : And when you worked in 7 the unit at midnight, do you remember this 8 being an issue at all? Because this is where 9 we're told the Ops Lieutenant who took the 10 count, , she -- 11 MS. : She had -. 12 MR. : -- had to run around and 13 try to figure this thing out. She's the one 14 who had to like come in and say like, "Okay, 15 where - who's what, where and I can verify 16 this." Do you remember that at all? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Do you remember any 19 telephone calls with the SHU saying, "You got a 20 bad count, you got to recount?" 21 MS. : No, if she's taking the 22 count, I let her deal with it. I don't - I 23 work on whatever else. 24 MR. : Okay. So you're not 25 actually involved with her while she's doing EFTA00115277 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 it? 2 MS. : No. 3 MR. : Okay. And you wouldn't 4 have been, being that you came from R&D, you 5 wouldn't have been the person that she said, 6 "Can you verify with R&D that this person is 7 there?" 8 MS. : If she asks me and that's 9 what I did then, but I don't recall that. 10 X You don't recall -- 11 MS. : I don't know anything about 12 that. 13 MR. : -- doing that? Okay. 14 MS. : Huh-uh. 15 MR. : You don't remember at all 16 though in that specific - you do - did you 17 recall her being there at all? 18 MS. : Yeah, she was there. 19 MR. : So you remember her being 20 in Control Center? 21 MS. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : And you 23 MS. : Because she also made rounds 24 on the units. She walked around the 25 institution. EFTA00115278 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 MR. : All right. And then as 2 far as being keyed in and out, so I guess it's 3 he BP-38, would that show when Fernandez was 4 actually keyed in and out of the system on 5 August 10th? 6 MS. : Fernandez? The guy from -. 7 MR. : So Fernandez, 3:15, who 8 was never -- 9 MS. : Oh, the -. 10 MR. : -- keyed out. He wasn't 11 keyed out. 12 MS. : The dry cell guy? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MS. : Yeah, it would show on a 38. 15 MR. : On the 38 it would 16 actually show what time? 17 MS. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : And how do we get that? 19 So just make a note, we got to get the 38 for - 20 MR. : That (Indiscernible 21 *01:41:43). 22 MS. : Since it goes back -- 23 MR. : That's the same document I 24 showed you? 25 MS. : -- only 45 days. EFTA00115279 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : Okay. So we wouldn't 2 even be able to get it at this point? 3 Hopefully that day maintained that. 4 MS. : Well, SENTRY only goes back 5 45 days, so 6 MR. : You're talking about this 7 document? 8 MS. : Yeah. 9 MR. : Now what if they did save 10 these documents back then, would we be able to 11 see when he was keyed in? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MS. : If they saved it, yeah. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : But if it's -- 16 MR. : And -. 17 MS. : -- not saved, it only goes 18 back 45 days. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : All right, I got. 21 MR. : So that will be very 22 telling as well if we can get that. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Before you start taking 25 everything away, there's an issue with initials EFTA00115280 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- and dates. 4 MR. : Being that I showed you these 5 6 MR. : Just the top. 7 MR. : -- documents, same as before. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : Can you just initial and date 10 the top? 11 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:42:27) 12 this one. 13 MR. : Do you know anything 14 about counts not actually being conducted at 15 this time in August of 2019? 16 MS. : No. 17 MR. : When you would work on 18 the custody side of the house, would you be 19 involved in things like counts? 20 MS. : If I'm counting a unit with 21 an officer, yeah. Or if I'm the one taking the 22 count, yes. If I'm -. 23 MR. : Did you ever do any 24 counts in the SHU? 25 MS. : I've done counts in the SHU - EFTA00115281 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 2 MR. : You have. 3 MS. : -- but -. 4 MR. : And when you were there, 5 did they actually conduct the counts? 6 MS. : When I do counts, I conduct 7 counts, yeah. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah, but I mean, 9 I'm not talking about you, I know you did, but 10 I mean -- 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : -- the people that were 13 there with you, were they actually, you know, 14 you're supposed to have two people to count. 15 Was the other person 16 MS. : Well, if I -- 17 MR. : -- also counting? 18 MS. : -- have - if I'm working, 19 yeah, counting, so it's no - it's not a 20 question. We're not even having that 21 conversation, so. 22 MR. : Did you ever have anybody 23 push back on you like, "No, no, no, we're 24 good?" 25 MS. : No. EFTA00115282 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : Have you heard of people who 2 when they're starting the shift, just filling 3 out the counts slips and the round sheets and 4 be like -. 5 MR. : Ahead of time. 6 MR. : Ahead of time. 7 MS. : Well, if they're on their own 8 unit, I can't tell you what they're doing on 9 their unit. I can only tell you what I'm doing 10 on my unit, so. 11 MR. : But like in the SHU, have 12 you ever heard of like people coming in and 13 pre-filling out both count slips and round 14 sheets at the very start of their shift? 15 MS. : If they've done it, I've 16 never seen it. 17 MR. : You've never seen it? 18 MR. : Have you ever heard of people 19 doing anything like that? 20 MS. : I've heard of it, but I don't 21 - I've never seen it. 22 MR. : Is that good practice? 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : Is it known that you 25 can't do that? EFTA00115283 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MS. : You're not supposed to do 2 that. 3 MR. : Does everyone know they 4 can't - especially if we're talking about round 5 sheets. Does everyone know that you can't go 6 and - say it goes from 8:00 a.m. until 12:00 7 p.m., you can't go in at 8:00 a.m. and write 8 out everything you did for around all the way 9 to 12:00 p.m.? 10 MS. : You cannot do that because 11 anything can happen. An emergency can take 12 place. An inmate could get removed from your 13 unit. You can get a new guy. Any - there's a 14 number of things that could take place that you 15 are not supposed to - even your log book, pre- 16 fill out your log. 17 MR. : Is there any training 18 though that you all receive saying like, "You 19 got to do this when you're actually conducting 20 the rounds?" And certainly, you know, maybe 21 after the fact is okay because you already did 22 it, but beforehand -. 23 MS. : Maybe if the Lieutenant sees 24 it, you know, they might say, "Hey, you know, 25 you're not supposed to pre-fill out your count EFTA00115284 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 slips." They might say, you know, "You can 2 fill out the date, the time, the unit," you 3 might could even fill in your name, but you're 4 not supposed to put in the actual number 5 because you don't know what can happen, so. 6 MR. : But as far (Indiscernible 7 *01:45:26) talking about counts slips, I'm 8 talking about round sheets. 9 MS. : Oh. No, you're not supposed 10 to. They always tell - they - the Lieutenants 11 always say that you're not supposed - they 12 always tell everybody that. 13 MR. : And do you know if back 14 in August 2019, they were also saying that? 15 MS. : No, I don't know about that. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MS. : I don't know -. 18 MR. : And is there any training 19 that's provided to teach people how to actually 20 fill out round sheets and counts slips or is it 21 supposed to be common sense? 22 MS. : Normally you're training on 23 the job as you go along, so if I'm new and, you 24 know, I'm training up under your officer, you 25 might show me certain things and people just EFTA00115285 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 learn by asking questions and maybe another 2 officer just showing him ropes and everybody 3 don't do everything the way they're supposed to 4 do so. I might come in as a new officer and 5 you might be showing me stuff and it could be 6 completely wrong, but I'm doing what you showed 7 me because that's all I know. So, it just 8 depends on who's training who and who's showing 9 who what to do and that's pretty much it 10 because on the job, right now, we have new 11 staff training new staff. We have staff that's 12 here like a month training staff that's here a 13 week. So, the blind leading the blind. 14 MR. : So if someone makes the 15 excuse that, "No one ever told me I could do 16 that, but I saw other people filling out round 17 sheets ahead of time so that's why I did it," 18 is that an excuse do you believe? So you think 19 that that is an actual excuse to say like, 20 "Well, he did it, so I did it," and that makes 21 it okay? Because don't you think it's pretty 22 common sense that, no, you can't - you're 23 certifying a document saying you conducted that 24 round at that time? 25 MS. : Yes, common sense to the EFTA00115286 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 people that think outside the box and - but 2 common sense is not common to everybody and - 3 and I'm not trying to be a smart ass -- 4 MR. : No, no, no, it's very -. 5 MS. : -- you know. 6 MR. : It's a good point. 7 MS. : And, you know, I've been 8 doing law enforcement for a while, you know, 9 corrections, juveniles, school safety. So, 10 I've seen things on the job that make me take 11 my job seriously. But when you have no 12 knowledge, you have no experience, no 13 correctional background, you've never been 14 placed in an environment that you felt was that 15 dangerous for you to be as mindful as you 16 should be, you don't - and then nothing 17 happens, you follow what you see everybody else 18 doing in past practice and it's not always 19 right and a lot of people don't read what 20 they're supposed to be doing, they just go by 21 what you tell them and what I could tell you 22 what to do, doesn't necessarily mean that 23 that's actually what you are supposed to be 24 doing. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00115287 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MS. : And if you don't read it in 2 black and white for yourself, how would you 3 know that this is actually what you should be 4 doing? And it's just a lack of training around 5 here. Staff are not being trained and that's 6 what creates a lot of our problems. We don't 7 have a bad institution, we just have a lack of 8 training, you know, and I don't think that 9 people are not willing to work, I think they 10 want to work, but it's a lack of training and 11 it's a lack of morale in the institution, so I 12 think that's what the biggest problem is. 13 People are not being properly trained. So, 14 yeah, if I see you doing it, I think it's okay. 15 I'm not ever thinking, "Oh, you know what? 16 Maybe I shouldn't do that, something might 17 happen." If nothing ever really happens, so. 18 MR. : I have a few more questions 19 20 MS. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. -- a few more, but we can 22 come back. Some of the questions are going to 23 be redundant -- 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : -- redundant because we asked EFTA00115288 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the questions 2 MS. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. : -- so I just got to cover it. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : Do you know why Reyes was 6 removed from the MCC? 7 MS. : Is that the guy that went out 8 to court? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MS. : I would only know that 11 because he went to court. But looking at that 12 document, off the top of my head, I wouldn't be 13 able to recall off the top of my head why he 14 was removed, but I just know he went out to 15 court. 16 MR. : Were you ever instructed on 17 what actions to take -. 18 MR. : Well, let's follow up 19 with that. Looking at the Lieutenant's log, 20 does that tell you something different? With 21 the Lieutenant's log and the BP-38? 22 MS. : You mean the PP-38. 23 MR. : Is it PP? 24 MS. : Uh-huh. 25 MR. : All right. I thought it EFTA00115289 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 was like Bureau of Prisons, like BP. So it's 2 PP. 3 MR. : Somebody -. 4 MS. : PP. PP-38. 5 MR. : What does the PP stand 6 for? 7 MS. : It's a SENTRY function. I 8 don't know. Okay. Repeat your question again. 9 MR. : So looking at where it 10 says that Reyes left at -- 11 MS. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- 8:38, and then as well 13 as with that document the R&D uses to key 14 people out, the PP-38. Does that tell you why 15 he would have left? 16 MS. : No, because this does not 17 necessarily tell you. It just tells you he was 18 removed out of the institution. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : So, no - I mean, you just 21 know that he's gone. You don't know why he's 22 gone, you just know he left. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MS. : And same thing with that, you 25 just - you don't know why, you just know he EFTA00115290 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 left. 2 MR. : Okay. You're talking about 3 the PP-38, right? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : How would the institution 6 know if Reyes was coming back from court? 7 MS. : R&D would know because he 8 would come back with the Marshals and we would 9 key him back in and we would send him back to 10 his unit. 11 MR. : Now, if he wasn't - now that 12 he wasn't coming back, is there any other 13 notification that comes up throughout the day 14 through R&D that he isn't coming back? 15 MS. : It would just be whatever 16 dispositions that the Marshals give us, provide 17 us with. 18 MR. : When does that disposition 19 come? 20 MS. : That just depends. Sometime 21 we get it right away, sometimes they forget and 22 we got to pre-remove the inmate out because we 23 don't have nothing and we know that he went 24 with the Marshals. But sometimes we get it as 25 soon as possible and sometimes we don't get it EFTA00115291 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 until the next day. 2 MR. : So there is a disposition 3 form that comes in afterwards. 4 MS. : Uh-huh. 5 MR. : What is it? What does the 6 form look like? What does it state on it? 7 MS. : It's just a United States 8 Marshals form and it'll say, "Disposition of 9 - it'll be time served, maybe the judge 10 released somebody on recognizance. Just 11 whatever the judge just might - the judge might 12 have dismissed the case. Just whatever 13 happened at court is what will be - it might be 14 a bail bond. Might be a release to Probation. 15 MR. : And where is that form kept? 16 MS. : It would be in the inmate's 17 folder. 18 MR. : Do you recall seeing any 19 forms for - disposition forms for inmate Reyes? 20 MS. : I don't remember. 21 MR. : And what is done with 22 that information once it's received? 23 MS. : We retain it in the inmate's 24 folder and we key the inmate out and -. 25 MR. : Or is the information EFTA00115292 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 disseminated throughout or no? 2 MS. : Do we give Control those? 3 No, we don't give Control a copy. I don't 4 think we give Control a copy of the disposition 5 form because they - we don't give them a copy 6 of it. 7 MR. : So this circles back to 8 what we talked about before. So once you find 9 out an inmate is definitively not coming back, 10 you do not contact anyone to say, "This guy 11 didn't come back." 12 MS. : We key them out and normally 13 the Control Officer, if you have a good counts 14 and assignments officer, and he's paying 15 attention, he'll say, "Oh, you guys keyed one 16 out?" We'll say, "Yeah, he's not coming back, 17 he got time served or the Marshals took him and 18 he's not coming back." 19 MR. : The R&D doesn't 20 proactively provide that information. 21 MS. : No, because they're supposed 22 to automatically be checking the computer to - 23 like a checks and balance, so it's something 24 that's automatic. When we have inmates going 25 out to court, we have a receipt that we give to EFTA00115293 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 the Marshals and a copy also goes downstairs to 2 the Control Center as well, so the Control has 3 a copy of every move we do in R&D, so they get 4 a copy of that. 5 MR. : Can you recall any situations 6 where an inmate leaves for court and R&D is 7 notified, "Hey, listen, the inmate is not 8 coming back," where R&D actually called the 9 unit to let them know, "Hey, he's not coming 10 back?" 11 MS. : Yeah, we have. We have. 12 MR. : Is that because they 13 requested to be notified or is it because, is 14 that something that R&D normally does? 15 MS. : No, we might have - it might 16 have been that the inmate had property upstairs 17 and we might need him to secure the inmate's 18 property and bring it down. So, that's 19 normally sometimes why we might notify the unit 20 officer because sometimes the inmate, they'll 21 call back to the jail and say, "Oh, they 22 released me. I got my property upstairs." And 23 we'll call upstairs to the unit officer and 24 say, "Hey, inmate so and so is not coming back, 25 can you secure his property?" EFTA00115294 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 MR. : Okay. Before he left for the 2 day on August 9th, do you recall talking to any 3 COs about Reyes leaving? 4 MS. : I don't recall that, no. 5 MR. : I know we covered this as 6 part of previous conversation, so I'm going to 7 go through it quick. 8 MS. : Uh-huh. 9 MR. : On August 10th when you came 10 on shift, which counts were you involved in? 11 MS. : I didn't take the counts, I 12 was number one in the Control Center. So my 13 number two person takes the counts. 14 MR. : Number two? Who was the 15 number two, do you recall? 16 MS. : Was it (Phonetic Sp. 17 *01:55:47)? 18 MR. : You can just look at that 19 for the daily assignments. 20 MR. : Just look at 10th, it's going 21 to be 10th. 22 MS. • 23 MR. (Phonetic Sp. 24 *01:55:59). 25 MS. : He was in the Control Center EFTA00115295 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 with me. 2 MR. : Okay. And do recall 3 taking the midnight count? 4 MS. : I believe she came and took 5 the midnight count. 6 MR. : Were you present for it? 7 MS. : I was in the Control Center - 8 9 MR. : But -. 10 MS. : -- but I wasn't focused on 11 them taking the count. I was focused on 12 getting my equipment, account for my equipment. 13 MR. : Do you recall any issues with 14 the count? 15 MS. : Not that I know of. Not that 16 I recall. 17 MR. : And do you recall who called 18 in the count from the SHU? 19 MS. : Not that I can recall. 20 MR. : What about the 3:00 a.m. and 21 the 5:00 a.m.? 22 MS. : I know one of them called the 23 count in because that's the only way we can 24 clear a count. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115296 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 MS. : So I don't remember who 2 called but I know somebody did call in the 3 count. 4 MR. : Do you recall during the 5 middle of the count calling the 6 SHU, having conversation with the CO in there? 7 MS. : I don't know because a lot of 8 times they'll call downstairs when they're 9 calling in the count and she'll have short 10 conversations with the officers, so I can't say 11 whether she called them or they called her, I 12 don't know. 13 MR. : Do you recall if there was a 14 second count slip sent up for the SHU for the 15 midnight count? 16 MS. : No, I can't recall, I don't 17 know. 18 MR. : Can COs just call in the 19 previous number or do they have to physically 20 do the count? 21 MS. : No, they have to count. 22 MR. : Why? 23 MS. : You're counting for living, 24 breathing bodies. 25 MR. : Once the counts are done, do EFTA00115297 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 the COs have to notify you? 2 MS. : They're supposed to call the 3 Control Center and call in their count. They 4 call the control two, which is , and they 5 call in their count. 6 MR. : Do the COs fill out any 7 paperwork for the count? 8 MS. : A count slip. A count slip. 9 MR. : Think we pretty much covered 10 a lot of the other questions. Do you have 11 anything on that topic? 12 MR. : Who all has access to 13 update the E-1 document? 14 MS. : Who all has access to update 15 it? The Control Center officers. 16 MR. : When you say, "officer," 17 just the Control Center officers is what you 18 mean? 19 MS. : Whoever works in the Control 20 21 MR. : Right. 22 MS. but a lot of times, most 23 of the officers were shifted around working 24 Control, so primarily, if you work the Control 25 Center as a counts and assignments officer, you EFTA00115298 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 had access to printing out E-1. All the 2 Lieutenants have access, R&D had access, but we 3 don't have access to that no more. 4 MR. : But at that point, did you 5 guys have access? 6 MS. : Yeah, because you have to 7 prepare this for the count, so yeah. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : But we don't have access 10 anymore. 11 MR. : So Control Officers, 12 Lieutenants, anyone else? 13 MS. : R&D. 14 MR. : And that anyone who has 15 worked in Control at that time, at least they 16 maintained the access for a certain amount of 17 period afterwards? 18 MS. : Yeah, Uh-huh. 19 MR. : Do you know how long that 20 period of time was at that point? 21 MS. : I don't think - I think if 22 you had access to it, you just had access to 23 it. It don't think it was no -. 24 MR. : So, given access once, 25 you got it until -- EFTA00115299 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 MS. : Uh-huh. 2 MR. : -- they revoke it. 3 MS. : Right. Uh-huh. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : I don't think it was - yeah, 6 it was no time frame that I know of. 7 MR. : You have any other questions 8 on that? When you were in - are you aware 9 there were cameras inside the MCC on August 9th 10 and 10th? 11 MS. : Uh-huh. 12 MR. : When you were in Control, did 13 you have access to see the cameras? 14 MS. Yeah, you - the cameras in 15 the - it's like little TV screens with little 16 individual boxes of different areas of the 17 institution. 18 MR. : Could you see the SHU in 19 there? 20 MS. : No. You could only see over 21 a balcony looking down to the MP and it was 22 like far off so it's like the camera is up on a 23 balcony and just looking all the way down over 24 there. You don't really - can't really see 25 nothing. EFTA00115300 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : Was it clear? 2 MS. : No. It's like, if you see, 3 you might have seen a body move here and there, 4 but you can't really tell - you couldn't really 5 - it wasn't clear, no. 6 MR. : Did you ever hear that the 7 cameras are not working, offline or not 8 recording? 9 MS. : All the time. 10 MR. : And was there complaints 11 filed - told to anybody specific? The Captain, 12 Lieutenant? 13 MS. : I believe notifications were 14 made, like especially if we're in the Control 15 Center, we would call the com tech and say, 16 "Hey, this camera might have went out." So 17 yeah, notifications were made. 18 MR. : And did they fix it 19 immediately? 20 MS. : At that time, no, things 21 weren't getting fixed immediately, no. 22 MR. : Do you recall seeing Michael 23 Thomas (Indiscernible *02:00:56) on the camera 24 on the night - on the morning watch of August 25 10th? EFTA00115301 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 MS. : You can't see really from the 2 camera that I had access to, you can't really 3 see - you can't - you barely could see because 4 it's like, I don't know if you've ever been in 5 our SHU. Have you ever been in the SHU? 6 MR. : That's -. 7 MR. : No, we have pictures but 8 we've never -- 9 MR. : That's this picture. 10 MR. actually been there. 11 MS. : So, you can't really see. 12 MR. : I'm showing you a picture. 13 MS. : This is -. 14 MR. : Is this the view? 15 MS. : Yeah, that's exactly, yeah, 16 this is it. So like, if they were in a black 17 hoodie or something, you can't see nobody over 18 there. If their back is turned and the chairs 19 are - you can't really see. You might see a 20 body walk across or you might see a body walk 21 down, but you can't really see. It's not a 22 real good copy. But yeah, that's exactly what 23 I'm talking about. 24 MR. : Do you have anything else on 25 the cameras? EFTA00115302 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. : No, just when you're in 2 the Control Center, does it - is there any 3 indication saying that if a camera is working 4 but not recording? No. There's no way for you 5 to know if a camera is recording or not? 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Just if it was actually 8 live or not. 9 MS. : Uh-huh. You would just know 10 that the camera is up. You don't know - I 11 wouldn't have been able to tell you that, I 12 don't know. Huh-uh. 13 MR. : Okay. And did you, prior 14 to 6:33, when a body alarm was set off, did you 15 notice anything unusual happening in the 16 institution on any cameras? Specifically, I 17 guess the SHU one that you couldn't see that 18 well anyway? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : No. Okay. 21 MS. : Huh-uh. 22 MR. : There was no other angles 23 from the SHU you could see? 24 MS. : No. This is all I - that's 25 all you could see. EFTA00115303 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : Anything else on that? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : Now just a few other 4 questions. 5 MS. : Uh-huh. 6 MR. : Do you recall anyone going 7 into the SHU that night, on August 10th? 8 MS. : August 10th, that's the 9 Saturday? 10 MR. : That's Saturday, overnight. 11 MR. : The morning that Epstein 12 was found dead. 13 MS. : Going in? The morning he was 14 found or -- 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MS. : -- or the night prior to him 17 being found? 18 MR. : Both is fine. 19 MS. : Well, I know the Lieutenant 20 made rounds. 21 MR. : Lieutenant who? 22 MS. -: , she made rounds 23 because they have to call the door, so we have 24 to pop her in. 25 MR. : So when he says "night," EFTA00115304 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 he's talking about midnight to 6:30 -- 2 MS. : Right. Yeah. 3 MR. : -- right. 4 MS. : So, Lieutenant, she made 5 rounds on the unit because the SHU staff called 6 the door for her to pop - for us to pop her 7 into the SHU and when they call the door, when 8 you hit that door, a visual of the door, who 9 standing in front of the door pops up in the 10 Control Center, so you know who is going into 11 the SHU. During the body alarm, our usual 12 staff just responds to a body alarm, so, you 13 know they say, "Hey, we have a medical 14 emergency in SHU," or wherever they call. You 15 got the SHU crew calling the door so staff can 16 run in and assist, so, whoever ran in, I 17 couldn't tell you. But whoever was on shift at 18 that time, responded. 19 MR. : So the only one overnight 20 would be at that - before his body was found 21 would be Lieutenant 22 MS. : Lieutenant 23 internal. If he had -. 24 MR. : Who is internal? 25 MS. EFTA00115305 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Do you recall 2 requesting to go into the SHU? 3 MS. : He would - he don't really 4 he wouldn't really have a reason to go into 5 SHU, not unless they're calling for you to come 6 in and do something or he's going in, you know, 7 because normally, the two officers will count, 8 they'll put their count slip on the door and 9 the internal officer, he'll pick up the count 10 slip on his rounds while he's counting the 11 other units. So, if he doesn't have a reason 12 to go in the SHU, he won't go in SHU. 13 MR. : Okay. Do you know if there's 14 any other way that anyone can get through that 15 outer door of the SHU without Control buzzing 16 them in? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Is the -. 19 MS. : You would need an emergency 20 key that you would have to get from the Control 21 Center. But no one gets those keys. And 22 especially on morning watch when there's no 23 need for us to give out those keys. Staff are 24 calling the door, so, no, there's no other way 25 to get in that unit. EFTA00115306 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : Are those keys kept open or 2 is it just it's locked up? 3 MS. : It's behind a door in the 4 bathroom in the Control Center. 5 MR. : And that would get you 6 through the first door. Do you know if there's 7 a second set of keys for the internal door for 8 the SHU kept in the Control Center? 9 MS. : We have keys for most of the 10 doors, yes. But those door - the inner door, 11 the Unit Officer would have, the inner door, he 12 has access to that. So the Unit Officers have 13 those keys. 14 MR. : We're just asking just to 15 clarify, if - do you know if anyone checked out 16 the keys for the inner door or the outer door 17 out of the Control Center that night? 18 MS. : The outer door, those keys 19 never get checked out, but the inner door, that 20 key is a key pretty much like a - you have to 21 put a chit on the Control Center and -. 22 MR. : Put a what? 23 MS. : A chit. 24 MR. : What's that? 25 MS. : So it's like a chit system. EFTA00115307 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 I have a pair of keys. In order for me to get 2 these keys from Control, I have to turn in a 3 chit -- 4 MR. : So it's basically 5 MS. -- with my name. Yeah, you 6 have to turn in a chit. So it's -. 7 MR. : A key chain with your name on 8 it. 9 MS. : Yeah, it's a chit. Uh-huh. 10 And you - it's like a - what is it, what would 11 you call it? Accountability. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : So, you put the chit on it, 14 you give the person a key. In order to get the 15 chit back, you got to give them the key back, 16 then you get the chit back. 17 MR. : Do you recall if anyone did 18 that for the SHU keys that night? 19 MS. : I don't recall. But I don't 20 recall that, no. 21 MR. : Okay. I've got nothing else. 22 Do you - is there any questions that you think 23 that we didn't ask you about that you feel that 24 we should ask you about? 25 MS. : Hm. EFTA00115308 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : In regards to this Epstein 2 investigation? 3 MS. Mm, no, I think that's -. 4 MR. : Do you believe Epstein 5 took his own life? 6 MS. : I believe so. 7 MR. : Do you have any reason to 8 believe that anyone took Epstein's life aside 9 from himself? 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : Do you have any knowledge 12 of anyone assisting Epstein with taking his 13 life? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : No. I believe he had a lot 17 on his plate and this environment was a culture 18 shock to him then. I think that he took his 19 own life. 20 MR. : Now the fact that we 21 don't have camera from that tier - oh, I wanted 22 to circle back with you. So our understanding 23 from the camera technicians and everyone else 24 is that there were actually at that time 25 cameras down each range, they just weren't EFTA00115309 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 recording. 2 MS. : Oh. 3 MR. : Do you know anything 4 about that? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Do you know - do you have 7 any reason to believe that someone knocked 8 those cameras off line intentionally so that 9 they stopped recording? 10 MS. : No. No. I don't believe 11 that. No. No. 12 MR. : All right. And you don't 13 know anything about that? 14 MS. : No. No. That's a good one. 15 MR. : Well, it's just there's a 16 lot of coincidences in this one. 17 MS. : Yeah. It's unfortunate. You 18 know, this building is still deteriorating as 19 we speak, so, it just - a lot of repairs and 20 maintenance that needs to be don't in this 21 institution. It's - yeah. Yeah. 22 MR. : That's all. 23 MR. : That's it? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Well, thank you for taking EFTA00115310 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr 1 the time to talk to us. 2 MS. : You're welcome. You're 3 welcome. 4 MR. : This is Special Agent 5 The time is 6:12 p.m. on Thursday, 6 July 15, 2021. We're ending the interview and 7 turning off the recorder. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115311 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00115312