EFTA00115744.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 13, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00115744 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 M 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115745 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : How are you? 2 MR. : Good. 3 MR. : Hey. Thanks for taking the 4 time. I also have Senior Special Agent 5 on the line also. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Hi, sir. How're you 8 doing? 9 MR. : Good. Good. 10 MR. : Okay. Mr. , thank you 11 very much for taking the time out of your day - 12 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- to speak with me. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : As I mentioned to you 17 yesterday, my name is . And I am 18 a Special Agent with the Department of Justice, 19 Office of the Inspector General. 20 MR. : All right. 21 MR. : Also on the phone is DOJ/OIG 22 Senior Special Agent . As I 23 believe you are aware, we - the OIG is 24 conducting an investigation into the death of 25 Jeffrey Epstein, and -- EFTA00115746 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- the circumstances 3 surrounding his death. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And the core of our 6 investigation is related to job performance 7 failure and security failure of BOP employees 8 who worked at the MCC. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Also, as I believe you 11 already are aware, this is a voluntary 12 interview. And you do not have to answer any 13 of our questions. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : And in addition, this 16 interview is being recorded, as all of our 17 interviews are recorded, as required under this 18 investigation. 19 MR. : Correct. 20 MR. : All of that okay, and do you 21 have any questions? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : Okay. Okay. Great. Thank 24 you. Is your name Raymond or 25 EFTA00115747 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. III. 2 3 MR. -: 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And the last name is spelled, 6 7 MR. : That is correct. 8 MR. : I understand that you are 9 currently retired from the BOP. Is that 10 correct? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : When did you retire? 13 MR. : December of, I mean, 2019. 14 MR. : December 2019. Okay. How 15 long did you work for the BOP? 16 MR. : May of '92. So, whenever 17 that is. I guess short, 27, 28. 27 years. 18 MR. : Wow. And what was your 19 position when you retired? 20 MR. : A Regional Direction. 21 MR. : How long were you the 22 regional director for? 23 MR. : So, it's '19. I think it was 24 September of '18, maybe. I don't know exactly, 25 but it was somewhere in that timeframe. EFTA00115748 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, about a year? 2 MR. : A year. A year and a half. 3 MR. : And you were the regional 4 director in August 2019 then? 5 MR. : Correct. 6 MR. : What did your duties as 7 regional director entail? 8 MR. : Oversighted of the prisons, 9 the facilities in the northeast region. 10 MR. : And did this northeast region 11 also have oversight over the MCC? That's the 12 Metropolitan Correctional Center. 13 MR. : Yes. Everything in the 14 northeast. Including the MCC. 15 MR. : So, who reported to you 16 directly from the prisons? 17 MR. : The warden. 18 MR. : Okay. When we started our 19 investigation, we actually obtained a copy of 20 after-action report that you were apparently 21 off reviewing. Do you recall the after-action 22 report, in regards to inmate Jeffrey Epstein? 23 MR. : You know, I completely forgot 24 there even was one until you said there was 25 one. EFTA00115749 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Do you - and I know you 2 forgot - do you recall being part of it, 3 participating in that at all? 4 MR. : No. I don't. The regional 5 director wasn't involved in the after-action. 6 They just finalize the report. 7 MR. : Okay. So, you had Do you 8 recall reviewing the report? 9 MR. : I didn't even recall there 10 was one. So, no. 11 MR. : Okay. Well, some of our 12 questions are based on the fact of the after- 13 action report. So, I will 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. -- speaking to the fact that 16 you don't recall it, I will go passed it. 17 MR. : That's fine. 18 MR. : And I will go through the 19 incidents, and go through - if you recall - any 20 part of it. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : Do you recall an incident 23 involving Jeffrey Epstein and inmate 24 Tartaglione on July 23rd, 2019? 25 MR. : I don't recall the incident. EFTA00115750 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 I know that there was a previous incident. I 2 don't know who the cellmate was. I mean, to 3 say I recall, that's what I told you yesterday, 4 for me to say I recall anything is, I don't 5 want to say I recall because it's been two and 6 a half years. To say I recall is inappropriate 7 just to use that term, because no, I don't 8 recall. I don't remember the incident. I know 9 there was something with him and another 10 cellmate. Whether there was an assault, or 11 another suicide attempt. But to say I recall 12 what it was, no, I don't. 13 MR. : Okay. And the incident was 14 basically Mr. Epstein was found with a rope 15 around his neck. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And he claimed that he was 18 assaulted by inmate Tartaglione. Tartaglione 19 claims that Epstein tried to hang himself, and 20 Tartaglione 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : -- is saying they notified 23 the C.O.s that -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- that Mr. Epstein tried to EFTA00115751 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 hang himself. Does that sound like -? 2 MR. : That all sounds legitimate. 3 I mean, that all sounds legitimate. Yeah. 4 MR. : In terms of selecting 5 Tartaglione as Epstein's cellmate, do you know 6 how that selection was made? Were you involved 7 in that? 8 MR. : I couldn't say that I 9 remember that. No. And typically, what I can 10 say is, typically, a regional director would 11 not be involved in the cellmate selection of 12 any inmate. 13 MR. : Okay. And being that Mr. 14 Epstein, with the high-profile status of his, 15 do you remember if Warden reached out 16 to you, to discuss the cellmate assignments, 17 anything like that with you? 18 MR. : I don't recall that. No. 19 I'm not saying he did or didn't. I just don't 20 recall it. I don't know why we -. I wouldn't 21 treat him any different than any other inmate. 22 MR. : Okay. And being that you 23 don't recall, my next question was going to be, 24 did you provide any guidance to MCC Warden 25 , or BOP staff, regarding -- EFTA00115752 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. -- (Indiscernible *00:05:49). 3 MR. : I don't even recall - I don't 4 recall ever discussing it. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : I'm not saying it didn't 7 happen. But I don't recall it. 8 MR. : Okay. It is our 9 understanding that following the July 23rd 10 incident, Epstein was placed on suicide watch. 11 Then on psychological observation. On July 12 30th, he was removed from suicide watch with 13 slash psych observation, and placed back in the 14 SHU. Is that correct? 15 MR. : That sounds correct. 16 MR. : Was your office consulted 17 when the decision was made, being in regards to 18 Epstein being moved back to the SHU? 19 MR. : Again, I can't tell you what 20 I have no clue. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : You're talking two and a half 23 years ago. 24 MR. : Understood. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00115753 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : Did you or your - you're 2 saying that it, being the two and a half years 3 ago, you don't recall, you yourself do not 4 recall providing any instructions to Warden 5 , or to any MCC staff in regards to 6 Epstein? You said it was (Indiscernible 7 *00:06:52)? 8 MR. : No. No. I'm saying I don't 9 - I'm not saying whether I did or didn't - I'm 10 saying I don't remember that far back, whether 11 I did or didn't. I'm not saying it didn't 12 happen. But I'm not saying it did. Again, 13 like I told you yesterday, for me to sit here 14 and have a conversation about someone two and a 15 half years ago, I can't tell you what happened 16 because I don't remember. 17 MR. : I see. I mean, being the 18 fact that, you know, this is such a big 19 incident, with all the press, and all the 20 issues -- 21 MR. : Well, that is, I mean, that 22 is I know you're doing your job. But let's 23 be real. This is a political -. I mean, there 24 was a dozen suicides that year, and I can't 25 recall anything about the others, either. But EFTA00115754 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 there is no investigation into the other ones. 2 So, obviously -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : -- there is a reason they're 5 investigating this one and not the others. So, 6 for me to sit here and have an interview about 7 a situation that was two and a half years ago, 8 I don't recall details about this one, but I 9 don't recall details about the other dozen or 10 two dozen, either. 11 MR. : Okay. I see. I'm going to 12 keep going on, and -- 13 MR. : That's fine. 14 MR. -- let me know if there is 15 any parts to this that you recall. If yes, you 16 can provide 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : -- did you, your office, or 19 anyone at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, 20 as far as you recall, receive any recalls, or 21 was anyone contacted by the lawyers or judges, 22 asking for Epstein to be removed from suicide 23 watch, or psychological observation? 24 MR. : I don't remember anything 25 about that. I mean, I don't know that they EFTA00115755 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 would be calling judges and lawyers. They 2 would be calling the institution anyway, not 3 the region. 4 MR. : Okay. And you haven't heard 5 anything about them calling the institution? 6 MR. : I'm not saying they didn't. 7 I just don't recall that. 8 MR. : Okay. There are a few rumors 9 that, around, stating that, hey, listen, the 10 judge or attorneys actually reached out, asking 11 for Epstein to be removed out of the 12 psychological observation and placed back in 13 the SHU. And that's the, recently asked that 14 question. 15 MR. : Okay. And it may be true. 16 I'm not saying it's not. I just can't sit here 17 and tell you two and a half years ago, or two 18 years later, whether that is true or not. 19 MR. : Okay. And it is our 20 understanding that, after Epstein was placed 21 back in the SHU, psychology recommended that 22 Epstein be housed with a cellmate. Is that 23 correct? 24 MR. : Well, that is for any inmate. 25 So, I would say yes. EFTA00115756 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So -- 2 MR. : It's, like, it's been on -. 3 Yeah. That's standard procedure. 4 MR. : Okay. Do you know who made 5 the decision that inmate would be 6 Epstein's cellmate? 7 MR. : No, I don't. That would be a 8 local decision at the facility. 9 MR. : And you also was not involved 10 in that decision? 11 MR. : If they were, I wasn't aware 12 of it, or don't recall it being so. 13 MR. : Okay. If Epstein was 14 required to have a cellmate, who is ultimately 15 responsible to make sure that all the SHU staff 16 were aware of this requirement? 17 MR. : Who is ultimately 18 responsible? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : I mean, because a lot of 21 people are responsible for that. What do you 22 mean "ultimately"? Like, the last person in 23 the line? 24 MR. : The last person in line 25 ultimately responsible, in terms of making sure EFTA00115757 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that every C.O. -- 2 3 4 5 MR. MR. MR. : Well, I mean -- : -- (Indiscernible *00:10:02). . Before we go on, make -- 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : -- make sure you are -- 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : -- make sure you are 10 addressing the findings that were in that 11 report. I understand that Mr. doesn't 12 remember the specific report, but he may 13 remember some of these findings. That might 14 help jog his memory. So, don't skip over those 15 parts in the list of -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- questions. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : I'm sorry. Who's speaking? 20 MR. : I'm sorry. This is 21 Senior Special Agent . The 22 other individual -- 23 MR. : Oh. 24 MR. : -- who had -- 25 MR. : Thank you. EFTA00115758 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I just wanted to -- 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- make sure that 4 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : -- here knew -- 7 MR. : Appreciate it. 8 MR. : -- it will help you, I 9 think, to help recall, rather than just to jump 10 into those questions. 11 MR. : Okay. I apologize. I'm 12 going to read those questions, too, because 13 these are questions that we have on the after- 14 action report. As Senior Special Agent 15 mentioned, that this might actually help jog 16 your memory. So, let me read that out to you, 17 some of the stuff that was put in the, 18 information that was put in that -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. -- after action report, and 21 let me know if that helps. Let's take a step 22 back. In that email to the warden, dated post 23 incident, "The supervisory staff attorney 24 reported details of a conversation with inmate 25 Epstein's attorneys. Inmate Epstein's EFTA00115759 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 attorneys requested he be housed in a single 2 cell. The staff attorney stated, `Inmate 3 Epstein could not be housed alone due to 4 previous suicide attempts and gestures.'" Do 5 you recall that? 6 MR. : That was an email I sent to 7 someone? 8 MR. : No, no. It was a -. It was 9 an email that was included inside the after- 10 action report. 11 MR. : Now, and I'm sorry, 12 , that was probably, I just meant where 13 we were left off. Mr. already 14 answered, saying that it was protocol, you 15 know, standard operating procedure, to house 16 inmates coming off of suicide watch. 17 MR. : Right. Any inmate coming off 18 of watch has a cellmate. I mean, we try to 19 cell every inmate with a cellmate, but 20 especially ones coming off of watch. It's 21 pretty routine. 22 MR. : Okay. And the next question 23 that we had was, this is a notation that was 24 made, "No notations concerning a requirement 25 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU EFTA00115760 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 program, and subsequently available for SHU 2 officers to reference." What does that mean? 3 MR. : I'm sorry. You're asking me 4 a question, or are you -- 5 MR. : Yeah. So, this is 6 MR. -- (Indiscernible *00:12:03) 7 the memo. 8 MR. : -- this is basically loaded 9 inside the You see, it's hard when we can't 10 do it face to face, I could show you the after- 11 action report. This is a note that was inside 12 the after-action report. It was, it states as 13 such, "No notations concerning a requirement 14 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 15 program, and subsequently -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. available for the SHU 18 officers to reference." What does that mean? 19 Like, what is the SHU? 20 MR. : I guess the - I don't know 21 what they call it anymore - the computerized 22 program they use, there is a form called a 292. 23 I forget what the name of it is. But 24 basically, all the information for each inmate 25 is on that form. But that's not necessarily EFTA00115761 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 the only place. I mean, it could be in the 2 memorandum. But yeah. The 292, again, I don't 3 know what they - remember what they call that 4 form. It is where it all information for each 5 inmate in Special Housing is kept. 6 MR. : Is this, like, the hot list? 7 MR. : I'm sorry? 8 MR. : Is this referred to as the 9 hot list, or is it something separate? Or is 10 this something on the system? 11 MR. : Oh. No. That's a -. It's 12 something separate. So, the hot list is the 13 offenders who have psych concerns. I believe 14 that is what the hot list is. If I remember. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : But the 292 is a form, 17 basically, that lists each offender's name, 18 cell number, and the kind of list 19 (Indiscernible *00:13:26). If they've had 20 recreation, their meals, medical intentions, 21 stuff like that. And there is a place in there 22 where it could be noted that there is that 23 requirement, but the officer would have to put 24 it in there, after they were notified. So, 25 it's not the way to -. I think what you are EFTA00115762 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 asking is how would leadership notify the 2 officer's that he has to have a cellmate. And 3 the leadership doesn't put that stuff in there. 4 That's the officers, put that stuff in there. 5 MR. : Okay. Okay. And how would 6 the leadership have notified? How should the 7 leadership have notified the officers? 8 MR. : By email or a memo. I would 9 hope. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Just some formal form of 12 communication. Then the officer could put it 13 onto (Indiscernible *00:14:09) the 292. 14 MR. : And do you recall if that 15 notification was made, based on (Indiscernible 16 *00:14:15)? 17 MR. : I remember the warden, and 18 the captain, and the II saying that they 19 notified down the chain. But I don't recall 20 seeing anything particular, like in writing, or 21 a document, or anything. I'm not saying there 22 is not a document there. There may be one in 23 that report you are looking at. But -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I mean, I can't sit here EFTA00115763 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 today and say, yeah, I remember the form, I 2 remember the memo, or if I remember the email. 3 MR. : Okay. And when you say 4 warden, that's Warden The captain was 5 , and the II, was that Skipper- 6 Scott or 7 MR. • wasn't even there 8 then. I don't think. Was she? 9 MR. : I think she had just -. So, 10 Skipper-Scott, you are referring to? 11 MR. : I don't. I'm just saying in 12 general. That was the chain of command. The 13 warden, the II, the captain would all be aware, 14 and ensure that was done. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : And so, would 17 have just started, sir. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Just -. 20 MR. : Yeah. But they are separated 21 by programs and operations. I don't -. I 22 remember, and if was just there - again, 23 I'm assuming - I'm assuming she wasn't in 24 charge of Special Housing, having just arrived. 25 MR. : As far as, you said that EFTA00115764 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 they would usually tell by email or a 2 memorandum. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Who in the SHU - when you 5 said the staff would have entered it in the 292 6 - who would have been responsible for that? 7 Would that be, like, the SHU lieutenant 8 MR. : There's -- 9 MR. : -- or the SHU OIC? 10 MR. -- yeah. Probably the SHU 11 lieutenant or the OIC. 12 MR. : And it could be 13 either/or, though? There's not typically one 14 person that would be, like, required to -? 15 MR. : I mean, I don't think policy 16 specifies which one does it. I'm not sure. I 17 haven't read a BOP policy in two and a half 18 years. But I don't recall it, ever saying who 19 knows that information. Typically, the OIC or 20 the lieutenant one. 21 MR. : But now, according to 22 this, this note, and again, the reason, the 23 primary reason we wanted to talk to with you is 24 based upon this after-action report. It's 25 just, we had to do a number of email reviews, EFTA00115765 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 and within the emails, it looked like you were 2 involved with a lot of the, at least back and 3 forth, with finalizing this thing. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : You know, helping to 6 coordinate it. So, with regard to that, our 7 understanding, through talking with a lot of 8 the staff, would be, it would be more like the 9 hot list that would list, you know, what 10 inmates needed to be, you know, housed with -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- another inmate. 13 MR. : So, your question was, is 14 there a place to put it, and there is a place. 15 You can put that on the 292. I'm not saying it 16 has to be on there. 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : But the answer is, but the 19 hot -. There is a hot list for psych inmates. 20 Yes. 21 MR. : Right. So, yeah. So, we 22 were just getting back to the fact that it's in 23 this notation, within the after-action report. 24 The specific quote was, "No notations 25 concerning a requirement for a cellmate were EFTA00115766 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 entered into the SHU program, and subsequently 2 available for SHU officers to reference." So, 3 when they are saying the SHU program, they are 4 referencing the 292? 5 MR. : Yes. Typically, that is what 6 someone is referencing. When they say the SHU 7 program, it's the program that allows the staff 8 to enter information on the 292s. 9 MR. : And -. 10 MR. : But there is also a hot list 11 that is developed by psychology services, for 12 those inmates that have psych concerns, and 13 restrictive housing. 14 MR. : Okay. Great. Go ahead, 15 16 MR. : But to sit here and say that 17 that has to be on the 292, I can't say that 18 that there is anywhere in writing that says 19 that is required by policy anywhere. 20 MR. : Yeah. No. Our specific 21 question was just, what did it mean by SHU 22 program? 23 MR. : Yeah. Okay. I gotcha. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you know if any 25 plan was made on how to address the situation, EFTA00115767 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 if Epstein's cellmate, , wa 2 removed as Epstein's cellmate? 3 MR. : Well, I mean, any inmate 4 requiring a cellmate is still the - whether 5 it's on the 292 or on the hot list - that 6 information is still, would still be there. 7 So, the staff and the SHU would still be 8 required to provide a cellmate. 9 MR. : And what was that something 10 that you were - I know you mentioned already 11 you were not involved - but that is not 12 something you were aware of, that if there was 13 a secondary plan, hey, just in case gets 14 removed, there's some actions that we need to 15 take? 16 MR. : No. I mean, I do remember 17 I'm trying to remember if this was before or 18 after - but I do remember that the warden had 19 already identified a couple of people, if the 20 cellmate was ever removed. But I can't tell 21 you who they were, or when that conversation 22 happened. I mean, that could have been months 23 before. I don't know. 24 MR. : Okay. And you were aware 25 that -. Has the warden spoke to you about EFTA00115768 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 this, or you found out later? 2 MR. : That's what I'm saying. I 3 just remembered that conversation. Whether it 4 was before or after, I don't know. I don't 5 remember the details of it. But I do remember 6 having a conversation with him, at some point, 7 whether it was before they had already 8 identified him, or if it was after that he had 9 said he had already identified him. That, I 10 can't tell you, and I don't want to put words 11 in his mouth. 12 MR. : And as far as you know, there 13 were a couple of inmates, other inmates, that 14 he already had chosen, -- 15 MR. : It seems that -- 16 MR. : -- just in case that -? 17 MR. : -- yeah. He had already 18 identified either one or two, it seems like. 19 Whether - again -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- whether that conversation 22 was that he told me after the fact, or if he 23 told me before. That, I can't remember. 24 MR. : And you don't recall if he 25 mentioned the names of those inmates to you, EFTA00115769 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 either. Right? 2 MR. : He may have, but I don't 3 recall that. 4 MR. : Now, let me ask you this, 5 sir. So, our understanding, through talking 6 with other people, was that the captain 7 provided a list to the warden, and the warden 8 contacted you, and you guys kind of hashed out 9 who should be with him. I think you were 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- you guys had, like, a 12 list of, like, three different people. 13 MR. : That sounds - but I mean, I'm 14 not saying that didn't happen - that sounds 15 legitimate. 16 MR. : So, are you thinking that 17 the plan was probably if there were a list of 18 three people, if one person was selected, then 19 one of the other two people would probably be 20 the next person, or would there be a whole 21 separate other conversation with regards to 22 that? 23 MR. : I mean, no, I mean, I would 24 imagine - and again, we're just having a what- 25 if conversation here, because I can't tell you EFTA00115770 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the details of what happened two, two and 2 half years ago - if he had a list of three 3 names, it was probably an assurance that at 4 least one of them was still there, or because 5 it's a jail, so people were constantly being 6 released. As an example, if his cellmate got 7 released that day. So, my guess is, the warden 8 probably did have two or three names already, 9 just in case one of them - or two of them - was 10 released by a judge at some point. 11 MR. : Awesome. Thank you. 12 MR. : Should those names have been 13 provided to the SHU lieutenant, or the OIC, 14 just in case, in case got removed, should 15 they have been aware who those inmates were? 16 MR. : I mean, is there a 17 requirement to? No. Because the hot list 18 would have told them to make sure he had a 19 cellmate. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : At that point, they would 22 have to figure out who that cellmate would be. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Now, I don't know if they had 25 the names, or if it was provided to them. But EFTA00115771 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to say policy says they must be provided, 2 that's not written anywhere. 3 MR. : Okay. The after-action 4 report. It lists that, on August 9th, at 8:00 5 a.m., inmate the cellmate, departs for 6 court. Inmate does not return to the 7 institution. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Based on your understanding, 10 do you know if was actually, like, 11 actually went to court, or was he transferred 12 out of the institution? 13 MR. : Well, that information was 14 provided to me by whoever did the after-action. 15 So -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : I mean, I don't know. 18 Whoever actually did the leg work of the after- 19 action, onsite, which was a team of staff I 20 sent there, they would have looked at the 21 documents to make that determination. 22 MR. : Okay. But you don't recall, 23 at this point, your understanding was he, did 24 he go to court, or was he transferred? 25 MR. : I don't have a clue. EFTA00115772 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : I don't. I don't know. 3 MR. : The reason we ask is, based 4 on what we looked at, it looks - based on our 5 investigation - we identified that the U.S. 6 Marshals Service had sent emails to the MCC, on 7 August 8th, saying that was being 8 transferred to the GEO prison, on August 9th. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And being that Epstein was 11 required to have a cellmate, what should have 12 happened once that notification was made, that 13 was being transferred? 14 MR. : I think you are talking about 15 two different departments. That information 16 was probably sent to the Receiving and 17 Discharge Department. Someone in R&D is not 18 going to know whether an inmate is required to 19 have a cellmate, or that he is even a cellmate 20 of Epstein. 21 MR. : But doesn't R&D do court 22 list, or the take out list for the day, they 23 put an inmates name, inmate name, along 24 with the words WAB - With All Belongings - next 25 to it. That's our understanding what EFTA00115773 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 31 1 transpired. And they would have sent that over 2 to the SHU. And if an inmate was -- 3 MR. : I don't -- 4 MR. : -- released from -. 5 MR. : I don't know. I don't 6 know how - I've never worked at MCC - so, I 7 don't know how they do that there. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That would be an internal 10 process. 11 MR. : Now, if that notification was 12 made, let's just say that was the process, they 13 did notify the SHU -- 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- that an inmate was 16 leaving, and -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- leaving WAB means With All 19 Belongings. Who is responsible to make sure 20 that Epstein had a new cellmate? 21 MR. : On the 8th? He still had a 22 cellmate, right? 23 MR. : On the 8th, he had. This 24 will be the 9th morning. 25 MR. : Oh, the day he left. EFTA00115774 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : The day he left. 2 MR. : The OIC would be. 3 MR. : The OIC would be? 4 MR. : Whoever was in charge of SHU 5 at the time that his cellmate was removed 6 should be reviewing for, to find him a new 7 cellmate. 8 MR. : Okay. And on the after- 9 action report, this is quoted in there, "On 10 August 9th, 2019, during a shift change in SHU, 11 the SHU number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 12 officer, briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. 13 relief, and the other two 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 14 p.m. officers of the likelihood inmate 15 Register Number 85993054, would not be 16 returning, and that inmate Epstein would 17 require a cellmate upon returning -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -- from attorney visit. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Inmate Epstein was not placed 22 with a cellmate upon his return to the SHU." 23 MR. : All right. So, they were 24 notified that his cellmate wasn't back? 25 MR. : Yes. He was notified that he EFTA00115775 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 would not - inmate - would not be 2 returning, and Epstein would require a cellmate 3 when he returned back from his attorney visit. 4 MR. : Well, no, that's -- 5 MR. : See, but he wasn't in SHU. 6 MR. : -- just to clarify, 7 , it doesn't actually say that he wasn't 8 returning. It said, "The likelihood that he 9 wasn't returning." So, our question more 10 surrounds - and it sounds like you are going to 11 point back to your investigators - but how did 12 they know, how did they get this information? 13 Or do you know? 14 MR. : How did they get -? 15 MR. : So, this information that 16 is reported in the after-action report, our 17 investigation shows that it is inaccurate. So, 18 we are just trying to reconcile some of this 19 information. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : For instance, our 22 understanding is that, when left the SHU, 23 he was listed was WAB, With All Belongings. 24 When the OIC actually escorted both Epstein and 25 , together, Epstein to attorney EFTA00115776 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 conference, and to Receiving and 2 Discharge, they actually had a conversation, 3 saying, don't worry, the OIC telling them, I'm 4 going to get you a new inmate. I'm going to 5 get you a new cellmate. I'm sorry. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : And response was, 8 "Yes. Make sure you get him a new cellmate." 9 And it was known, at that time, that he wasn't 10 coming back. So -- 11 MR. : Got it. 12 MR. : -- we're trying to 13 reconcile, because there is a lot of people 14 that are saying that inmate went to 15 court. However, we have emails from August 16 8th, to both, two different -- 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : emails from the 19 Marshals Service. One that went to just 20 Receiving and Discharge, and another that went 21 to a number of people in the institution, 22 including all of the lieutenants. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : And that happened on 25 August 8th, and it went that, within it, it EFTA00115777 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 said that he was being transferred to GEO. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : So, our question just 4 kind of was, with regard to this specific 5 point, if you knew how they obtained that 6 information. And then, the second part of that 7 would be, on August 8th, with the people that 8 did receive this information, that was actually 9 part of custody and not Receiving and Discharge 10 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : -- should have 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- should have they taken 15 any action, and if so, what actions should have 16 they taken? 17 MR. : Well, one, I don't know where 18 they got that information. I would assume -. 19 I mean, other than the actual report, there is 20 attachments of documents with that, correct? 21 MR. : With the -. Yeah. So -- 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- well, with the -- 24 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *00:27:00). 25 MR. : -- with the after-action EFTA00115778 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 report? No. We did not have any -- 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- that is correct. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Right, ? We don't 6 have any It just has the information -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- and a lot of the 9 points after it says, "Because we didn't have 10 video, we weren't to verify things with video," 11 and because -- 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- we didn't have -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- this, I mean, and 16 because it seemed like they had a limited kind 17 of ability to -- 18 MR. : Well -- 19 MR. : -- really verify -- 20 MR. : -- yeah -- 21 MR. : -- some of this stuff. 22 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:27:20) 23 positive, this turned into such a large scale 24 investigation with the OIG and the FBI, they 25 were limited on what they could do. They had EFTA00115779 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 limited access, unfortunately. So, their 2 investigation was (Indiscernible *00:27:31). 3 Their after-action review was pretty limited. 4 Based on their access to a lot of stuff, I 5 would imagine. I'm sorry. The other part you 6 asked was? 7 MR. : So, yeah. The first part 8 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:27:42). 10 MR. and again, the, kind 11 of the reason why we are doing this is, one) to 12 find out if we are missing anything; and two) 13 we just don't want to totally contradict the 14 BOP report -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- and to see if, like, 17 hey, where it's, like, let - we wanted to say - 18 let's talk to the regional director at least to 19 see if he knew anything. Like, did he learn 20 anything after, maybe, this report was 21 finalized, or if maybe if he can help us kind 22 of, like, at least clear up how some of this 23 could have, you know -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- the discrepancies EFTA00115780 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 could have taken place. But the follow up to 2 that was that, we -. Hold on. What - 3 what was my question? Now, I've even lost 4 track of my own train of thought. 5 MR. : Yeah. Somehow, I think, if I 6 remember, you said something about all the 7 lieutenants were aware that he was leaving the 8 next day -- 9 MR. : Oh. Correct. 10 MR. : -- so, when should they 11 start? 12 MR. : Go back -- 13 MR. : Or -? 14 MR. : -- yeah. Going back to 15 the -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- email -- 18 MR. : But I don't remember two and 19 a half years ago, but I do remember what you 20 just asked (Indiscernible *00:28:36). 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:28:37). 23 So, you are saying they were all aware the 9th 24 and the day before. 25 MR. : Well, we're not -- EFTA00115781 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That he was -. 2 MR. : -- we're not saying 3 necessarily they were aware. We're saying that 4 we have emails saying that they received an 5 email from the Marshals Service, and within 6 that email was an attachment that said that he 7 was being transferred. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : So, based upon, you know, 10 all of the lieutenants, and other custody staff 11 receiving that email, should have they known 12 that he was being transferred, based upon 13 MR. : The day before? 14 MR. : -- the day before, on 15 August 8th. Correct. 16 MR. : No. Not necessarily. I 17 mean, that changes - especially in a detention 18 center - that changes hourly. I mean, they 19 could have showed up that morning to pick up 20 everybody and said, oh, disregard on -. I'm 21 sorry. What did you say the other inmates name 22 was? 23 MR. -: 24 MR. -: . Yes. 25 MR. : Yeah, they could have EFTA00115782 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 MR. : -- the Marshals could have 3 shown up that morning and said is not 4 going, and changed the intake, or the - I don't 5 even remember what they call those forms 6 anymore - discharge form. So, to make plans 7 the day before, I mean, if you want to go above 8 and beyond, sure. But is there a requirement 9 to? No. The requirement is that he had a 10 cellmate. He had a cellmate until the next 11 day. And technically, he wasn't even in the 12 SHU, because you said he was at, with his 13 lawyer, right? 14 MR. : Right. So, he was with 15 his lawyer up until, you know, that nighttime. 16 Probably about 7:00 p.m. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : -- and that's been a lot 19 of people's excuses 20 MR. : So -. 21 MR. : -- saying that, hey, we 22 had until 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- 7:00 p.m. to get him 25 there, but -- EFTA00115783 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : -- our investigation is 3 kind of, you know, revealed that they knew - 4 and when I say "they," I mean at least the OIC 5 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- and -. 8 MR. : Yeah. Once he was actually, 9 technically, once he was removed from SHU, they 10 knew he was removed and transferred, yeah, then 11 someone should have started taking action at 12 that point. 13 MR. : And then, or a lot of 14 these people are saying, well, we didn't know 15 if he was technically going to return because 16 he went to court. But we've learned that, at 17 least institutionally, and I don't know if this 18 is a BOP -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. thing or not. But 21 when it's listed as, "With All Belongings," 22 that means, at least at the MCC, that they are 23 leaving -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- the MCC, they will be EFTA00115784 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 -. And then, it says, it says pre-removed on 2 the PP-38. So, it is showing -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : -- that they are actually 5 being removed from the institution. They are 6 not expected to come back. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : By any means. 9 MR. : With All Belongings is a 10 local lingo. And that is an internal thing. 11 So, that is not really a technical, Umm, term. 12 It would be - like you said - if it said 13 transferred, that's one thing. If it says for 14 court, that would be another thing. Well, it 15 just depends on how that is coded on there. 16 With All Belongings, that doesn't - I mean, 17 I've never even heard that term before. So -- 18 MR. : No, that's good that -- 19 MR. in 28 years. 20 MR. : -- no, that's great to 21 know. But are you familiar with, like, the PP- 22 38s, though? 23 MR. : It's been a while. I mean, 24 remember some of it. But it's been a little 25 while. EFTA00115785 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : What was his -- 3 MR. : Hmm. 4 MR. : -- what was his -? 5 MR. : It just, it listed him as 6 pre-remove at 8:38 a.m. And then, R&D 7 explained to us that pre-remove means that he 8 was taken off of the, you know, the 9 institutional count, or roster. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : And he wasn't going to be 12 coming back. And based upon that pre-remove, 13 they knew that they would have wrote WAB, 14 which, you know -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : -- good to know that is - 17 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- that is an MCC thing, 20 not a BOP thing. But -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- and everybody that we 23 spoke to said, yes, we knew WAB means he wasn't 24 coming back. 25 MR. : Right. So, if they knew that EFTA00115786 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 locally, then yes, they probably should have 2 started making a decision at that point. 3 MR. : All right. And then, 4 going back to who was ultimately responsible, 5 at least, it sounds like the OIC? Especially 6 since the OIC said he knew he was WAB. He is 7 the one -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- who really should have 10 started that process? 11 MR. : He should have at least 12 reached out to the SHU lieutenant and made them 13 aware of it, then they would have started that 14 process. 15 MR. : And this is where it 16 becomes convoluted, and a little - because the 17 SHU lieutenant wasn't there that day. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So then, you know, then 20 it is, like, all right, should he have told the 21 activities -- 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : -- lieutenant, the 24 operations lieutenant? Should he have gone 25 straight -- EFTA00115787 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- to the captain? 3 MR. : Everybody has a supervisor. 4 MR. : Right. So, who would 5 have been his direct -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- supervisor? Would it 8 be the activities, ops, or -? 9 MR. : It would be the - I mean, he 10 has two, really - activities lieutenant, 11 operations lieutenant, would be his direct. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Really, the operations 14 lieutenant would be his direct supervisor. 15 Activities, really, isn't a direct supervisor. 16 So. 17 MR. : All right. So, he should 18 have notified them, and then, they should have 19 - I'm assuming -- 20 MR. : And that would have probably 21 got -- 22 MR. : -- notified -- 23 MR. : -- that probably would have 24 got -- 25 MR. : -- the captain. EFTA00115788 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 MR. : -- the ball rolling, at that 2 point. 3 MR. : Okay. And if they 4 didn't, so, if they also knew. So, let's say 5 there is this individual named Carlos Perez, 6 who was the operations lieutenant that day. 7 You said he was -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- he also knew that 10 was Epstein's cellmate, and that 11 did leave the institution. But he is the one 12 who said - and this is what lines up what your 13 after-action report said - that went to 14 court, and he didn't know if he was coming back 15 or not. 16 MR. : So, did he -- 17 MR. : He also said that he -- 18 MR. : I'm sorry. It may be in 19 there because he was, he may have told the 20 after-action team that, and that might be why 21 it's in there. 22 MR. : Okay. And so, they 23 probably got it based upon those interviews. 24 MR. : Yeah. It could have been 25 just simply an interview. For the reason. EFTA00115789 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 MR. : Okay. So, I think the 2 warden would probably be more appropriate to 3 speak with the specific WAB term, then, because 4 our understanding is that the operations 5 lieutenant would have had that production list, 6 that would have listed as WAB. So, him 7 saying that he knew that 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- he was leaving, if he 10 saw the WAB, he should have known, well, he 11 wasn't coming back. 12 MR. : Right. Yeah. If that's what 13 they use it for, and he was aware of it, then 14 yes. I agree. 15 MR. : Okay. And you think that 16 would be more of an operations lieutenant thing 17 and not an activities lieutenant? 18 MR. : Yeah. Operations. I mean, 19 they both work together, but operations is 20 responsible for the shift, and the activities 21 is just kind of responsible for going around 22 and reviewing documents, and policy, and you 23 know, just kind of make sure everybody is doing 24 their job, so to speak. 25 MR. : Okay. Great. And what EFTA00115790 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 is your thought of the fact that -. So, Perez, 2 who was the operations lieutenant, he knew this 3 information, but he didn't pass it along to his 4 relieving operations lieutenant, who was Mr. 5 Cannata. Do you think that would, that is 6 pretty problematic, the fact that he said that 7 he knew was gone, but didn't know if he 8 was, or wasn't coming back? Should have he 9 notified his relief? 10 MR. : On the day of? 11 MR. : Correct. On the 9th. 12 MR. : That - yeah, I agree - that's 13 -. I mean, if knew that, he is telling us he 14 knew that he needed a cellmate, and he was 15 aware of it, and they hadn't had anybody by the 16 end of his shift, he should have passed that 17 onto his relief. 18 MR. : Okay. Sounds great. 19 right, Back to you. 20 MR. : Is there anything else on 21 that topic? Because I think the next topic 22 jumps. 23 MR. : No. I think that we are 24 onto the next topic. 25 MR. : Hey, Mr. before I go EFTA00115791 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 forward -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- you mentioned that the 4 after-action team, that they might have got the 5 information from Perez. Do you know if they 6 did any interviews? 7 MR. : I don't know what -- 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:35:41). 9 MR. -- I mean, without looking at 10 the actual report, and the documents that he 11 used, I couldn't tell you. 12 MR. : Okay. No problem. 13 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen 14 that thing since whatever the date of it is. 15 never looked at it again after that day. 16 MR. : Understood. I'm going to go 17 ahead and jump into the next topic. What is 18 your understanding of what happened with the 19 MCC cameras, and why they weren't recording in 20 the SHU on August 9th and 10th? 21 MR. : My understanding was the, 22 what they call the DVRs, the recording devices, 23 were not operating properly. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : But I don't know, I mean, EFTA00115792 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 don't know - still don't know - the end result 2 because I know they were still trying to - 3 what's the word? - retrieve some of the data 4 off of, because it's digital, it's not tapes. 5 So, the last I heard, before I retired, or not 6 before I retired, it's the last I heard right 7 after the incident, I know, I think the FBI or 8 you guys, somebody had the recorders, and kept 9 trying to see what they could recover from 10 them, but I don't know the end result of that. 11 So, I don't, I really don't know even what 12 footage they got. 13 MR. : Okay. Well, based on our 14 investigation, we've learned that the MCC, SIS 15 Lieutenant , and the II became aware 16 on August 8th, 2019, that at least some of the 17 MCC cameras were not recording. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : They contacted the Comtech, 20 , and they had also notified 21 Captain that the cameras were 22 not working. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Are you aware if this is 25 accurate? EFTA00115793 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 MR. : I'm not. I mean, if they 2 were, they became aware on the August 8th, and 3 they reported it on August 8th? 4 MR. : Is this the first time you're 5 hearing about this, that this notification was 6 made and the cameras were not working on August 7 8th, the day before the incident? 8 MR. : I mean, I don't recall it. 9 I'm not saying it wasn't told to me after the 10 incident with it. Been told to me on August 11 8th. That would be anything to report. But 12 was I made aware after the fact? I don't know. 13 I can't remember that. 14 MR. : Okay. Were you or your 15 office notified about the cameras not working 16 at the MCC, prior to August 10th, 2019? 17 MR. : You would have to go back in 18 the work orders and look at that. I have no 19 clue. I mean, you are talking 19 facilities, 20 and you get calls every day. It's not the only 21 place that we had to replace cameras in. So. 22 MR. : Well, let me be specific. 23 Were you aware if the MCC cameras were 24 scheduled to be replaced? 25 MR. : I don't know. EFTA00115794 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 MR. : Okay. Well, based off of 2 work orders, and the email communications that 3 we've reviewed, the MCC ordered new cameras and 4 DVRs and system parts, and to have them 5 delivered to the MCC in approximately October 6 2018. These were -- 7 MR. : All right. 8 MR. : -- the cameras that were 9 installed immediately after Epstein's death. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : In August 2019. Is that 12 accurate? 13 MR. : Sounds good. I mean, I don't 14 know. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : It sounds -. If you are 17 saying that's documented, then it is. 18 MR. : Yeah, well, based on what we 19 found out, it looks like, it sounds like the 20 system had a history of failure. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : And based on that prior year, 23 based on that -- 24 MR. : Wait, you're saying they had 25 already requested and received the EFTA00115795 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 replacements, then? 2 MR. : Yes. And it was sitting -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. -- there since October 2018. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Yeah. I mean, that sounds 8 legit. I don't get -. The Regional Director 9 is not involved in that detail, I mean, that 10 was something that the facilities Comtech, or 11 the facilities administrator would have looked 12 it. We would have made a decision based on 13 need. So, it sounds like we did the right 14 thing and got them what they needed. 15 MR. : Yeah. Now, you said who 16 would have been responsible, the facilities 17 manager, and -? 18 MR. : So, if they needed the 19 cameras, and they sent up a request, it would 20 come up through the facilities officer in the 21 region, and then up through the central office, 22 and then, they would send out the money, which 23 sounds like they did. 24 MR. : Okay. And then, did you see, 25 it says 2018 -- EFTA00115796 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- a year before -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : -- they actually had it 5 sitting -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- they had everything 8 sitting there -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- at (Indiscernible 11 *00:39:38), they already had it sitting there, 12 but when should have the new camera system have 13 been installed? 14 MR. : I mean, I'm not a Comtech. I 15 don't know the I don't know if there were 16 parts that they still needed. I don't know. 17 mean, there is a lot of questions, leading 18 questions there for me to ask before I say when 19 they should be installed. Just because they 20 showed up today doesn't mean they could be 21 installed tomorrow. Now, a year later sounds a 22 little extreme. But again, I don't know if 23 they had run conduit. They needed to buy wire. 24 If they didn't have a Comtech. There is a 25 million questions to ask before when should be EFTA00115797 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 installed. 2 MR. : Well, based on our 3 conversations with SigNet and you, do you know 4 who SigNet is? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : The company that works as -. 7 That is the company that services the camera 8 system for the MCC. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And the techs out there, the 11 last time we spoke with them, they said that 12 all the parts were already ordered, and -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- they were just waiting on 15 a phone call from the representatives at -. 16 MR. : Yeah. I'm not saying they 17 shouldn't have been installed. I'm saying I 18 don't know because I don't know all the details 19 of the situation of that work order. If they 20 had everything in place, and they had all the 21 wires run -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. -- I think it would have been 24 installed long before that incident. 25 MR. : And that was my question. EFTA00115798 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 Due to the fact that there was a history of 2 failure with the DVR, with the camera system, 3 and the fact that they had a replacement system 4 already waiting -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. -- (Indiscernible *00:40:58) 7 some kind of priority -? 8 MR. : Now, without knowing the 9 details, yes. I mean, without knowing the 10 unknown, if there was something there I'm not 11 aware of, but there is nothing there that I am 12 not aware of, yes, I would think it should be 13 installed by that point. Unless there is some 14 unusual circumstance that I'm just, you know, 15 don't know about, at this point. 16 MR. : And based on your experience, 17 if that everything was there at the MCC, who 18 would have been responsible to make sure the 19 new system was installed? 20 MR. : The facilities manager, 21 supervisors, that would be communications tech 22 does the actual work. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : And they would have to 25 coordinate that, also, with the captain. So, EFTA00115799 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 to take cameras down, so they would have to 2 coordinate with the captain if there was areas 3 that were shut down for short periods of time, 4 stuff like that. 5 MR. : And based on what you told me 6 so far -- 7 MR. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : -- you're not, you said there 9 is a lot of variables, but if all the parts 10 were there, and everything was available -- 11 MR. : Yeah. Without -- 12 MR. -- (Indiscernible *00:41:58). 13 MR. : -- yeah, without -- 14 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:41:58). 15 MR. without some very unusual 16 circumstance, that is, I don't know why they 17 wouldn't have been installed at that point. 18 MR. : I see. Well, the other way 19 to explain it is, based on a conversation with 20 SigNet, they were there a couple of days after 21 this incident. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Mr. Epstein, after the FBI 24 took the cameras. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00115800 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : And they were able to set up 2 all the cameras. 3 MR. : So, that sounds like they 4 could have been installed at that time. Again, 5 I don't want to put words in people's mouths, 6 because I'm not there to say, you know, that 7 they installed them. That, you know, was the 8 Comtech there? Did they have a Comtech? There 9 is a lot of questions to answer, not being 10 onsite. I don't know why they would not be 11 installed, is what I'm saying. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And it sounds like they 14 should have been. But if there is some 15 information I'm not aware of that could lead to 16 them not being installed, I'm not aware of that 17 information. 18 MR. : Based on what we have found 19 out, and you asked, in terms, you know, we 20 (Indiscernible *00:42:52), but our 21 understanding is, the system actually stopped 22 recording as of July 29th. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : And so, there is no 25 recordings in the system. So, there was - the EFTA00115801 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 cameras were not recording. And on August 8th, 2 it looks like Lieutenant and II 3 tried to review video footage. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And they realized they 6 couldn't go back. 7 MR. : Hmm. 8 MR. : And -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- they told Com Tech 11 and supposedly also told Captain 12 However, the system was not fixed. And when, 13 after the incident happened on August 10th -- 14 MR. : Hmm. 15 MR. : -- the question was, how come 16 the system wasn't fixed? If everything was 17 there, and -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : -- they were notified on the 20 8th. If the notification came out, hey, 21 listen, how important is it for the camera 22 system to work at a prison facility? 23 MR. : You're asking me that? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Oh, I mean, I think this EFTA00115802 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 incident explains it all. Honestly, they are 2 extremely important. I mean, there was a time 3 in the Bureau we didn't have cameras. 4 Honestly, there were no cameras in the 5 institutions. But now that we have them, we've 6 come to rely on them for everything. To say 7 how important it is, I mean, there is not a 8 document that says somewhere that they will be 9 here, they will be there. That's, you know, 10 the facility decides where they need them at, 11 and then, they are approved up the chain from 12 there, but they are an important part of our 13 security, because basically, they are reviewed 14 any time there is any incident. So, whether 15 there is a fight, assault, accusations of 16 sexual assault, you name it, any kind of 17 significant event, the first thing the facility 18 does is pull all the cameras, in those areas, 19 and reviews it. 20 MR. : And just to clarify, I mean, 21 based on what our knowledge is, it looks like 22 you could live view the cameras, but none of it 23 was recording. Now, being that they found out 24 on August 8th that the cameras were not 25 recording. EFTA00115803 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Should they have made a 3 (Indiscernible *00:44:48) a few days, one to 4 two days to fix it, or should it have been 5 fixed immediately? 6 MR. : I mean, it would have been a 7 priority, yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : One or two days, I don't 10 think that is a long period. I mean, if I was 11 a warden and my Comtech came to me and says, 12 hey, the cameras on this range are not working, 13 I would tell them to get them fixed. Now, if 14 it has been a week later, and they are still 15 not fixed, I would probably ask why. But if it 16 is not fixed the next day, you know, I'm giving 17 them time to work on it first. I don't know 18 what the problem is. And the wardens at the 19 facilities are not Comtech experts, and not 20 experts in communication equipment. So, to 21 say, you know, you got the next two hours to 22 get it fixed, that seems to be extreme. If it 23 has been a while, that is probably a question 24 of why is it -? Why -? I guess my answer 25 would be, if it has been a couple days, they EFTA00115804 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 should at least ask the status of it, at that 2 point. 3 MR. : Okay. Understood. 4 do you have any other questions on the cameras? 5 MR. : Nope. 6 MR. : Okay. I'm going to move on 7 to the next topic. On the after-action report, 8 there was a summary for August 9th, 2019. "At 9 7:00 p.m., Epstein was provided a social call 10 by the institution duty officer. This would 11 have been" -- 12 MR. : I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 13 MR. : -- oh. 14 MR. : On what day now? 15 MR. : This is on August 9th, 2019. 16 MR. : This the day before 17 Epstein was -- 18 MR. : Okay. Gotcha. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Found. 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Correct. 23 MR. : Gotcha. 24 MR. "7:00 p.m., Epstein was 25 provided a social call by the institution duty EFTA00115805 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 officer. This call was done on an unmonitored 2 line. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : It is extremely concerning 5 why this call would have been placed, and why 6 it would be done on an unmonitored line. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Without further interviews, 9 it is not possible to determine the reason for 10 this call." Why is it extremely concerning? 11 MR. : Because all inmate phone 12 calls are recorded. So, why would an employee 13 go on their own and provide a phone call to an 14 offender that is not on the inmate system? I 15 forget what they call that system, but on the 16 inmate telephone system. 17 MR. : Okay. So, I will give you a 18 basic understanding of what -- 19 MR. : And they probably, I'm 20 assuming, they didn't interview the person that 21 gave the call because of the OIG investigation. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:47:14) 24 MR. : And Yeah. 25 MR. : And does the report suggest EFTA00115806 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 they didn't interview him, right? 2 MR. : Yeah. It says they didn't do 3 the interview. But we were able to interview 4 the person, and this is what our understanding 5 was of what transpired. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : That on August 9th, that is 8 the day before Epstein was found dead 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- "Epstein made a request to 11 the MCC unit manager, 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. -- and provided him with the 14 phone call. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : So, that he - so that Epstein 17 - could call his mother. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -: checked Epstein's 20 pack and PIN and found out that it was not set 21 up yet. Therefore, took Epstein to a 22 shower area in the SHU, and plugged a phone 23 into the legal line. dialed the 24 number, a man answered, he handed the phone to 25 Epstein, and then left for the day. EFTA00115807 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. -: stated that the SHU 3 C.O.s were around, and he did not specifically 4 instruct anyone of them to monitor the phone 5 call. Instead -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. -- he called the SHU after he 8 departed from the MCC, to make sure that the 9 phone was taken away from Epstein after his 10 allotted time." Do you recall hearing about 11 this prior, or is this the first time you are 12 hearing about this? 13 MR. : The only thing I heard is 14 what you just, was in the report. All of that 15 is new. 16 MR. : Okay. So -- 17 MR. : What I should say is, as I've 18 been saying, is I don't recall hearing that, 19 but that sounds like something I hadn't heard 20 before. 21 MR. : Okay. So, a couple things 22 that stood out to us is the fact that, you 23 know, the phone call. He asked -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- to speak with his mother, EFTA00115808 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 66 1 and the phone was plugged into the legal line, 2 there was no -. Are inmates allowed to make 3 phone calls on the legal line? Are they ever 4 given an opportunity on the -? 5 MR. : For legal calls. He was 6 How long had he been there? His - I mean, I 7 don't have access to this - I'm assuming he has 8 made previous calls, and his PIN number would 9 have been issued to him the day he arrived. 10 MR. : So, that is the thing, we 11 found out that, the pack and PIN was never set 12 up. Because he was always in attorney 13 conference. 14 MR. : Oh. He never set it up 15 because he was never in there during the time 16 to do it. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So, allowed him to 20 make the phone call on the legal line, and we 21 were told, sometimes people make phone calls on 22 the legal line, but you would have a 23 correctional officer sitting next to them, and 24 then monitor the phone call. 25 MR. : Yeah. Someone should have EFTA00115809 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 been there. Especially the fact that it wasn't 2 a legal call. So, someone should have been 3 there. Honestly, it should have been done on a 4 speaker phone, since it wasn't a legal call. 5 And it should have been in a log somewhere. I 6 mean, I'm not saying it wasn't logged, but 7 there should be some record of that call. 8 MR. : So, we were told by the 9 captain that he instructed, he had a 10 conversation in regards to this, with 11 and he told to log it and monitor the 12 call. 13 MR. : Which what I just -- 14 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:49:52). 15 MR. -- exactly what I just told 16 you. 17 MR. : Yeah. But there was no log 18 kept about it, and there was no one monitored 19 the call. 20 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 21 MR. : But made the phone 22 call. Epstein had to say that he wanted to 23 speak to his mother, except his mother was 24 deceased. 25 MR. : Ahh. EFTA00115810 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 MR. : So, now, and the person who 2 picked up was a male that picked up the phone. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : And the phone was handed off. 5 How -? Is this a serious concern, or the 6 safety, and a sign of a safety violation? 7 MR. : Yeah. I mean, you described 8 the situation. We don't know what happened on 9 that phone call. It could have potentially led 10 to the incident, but we don't, we will never 11 know. Yeah. All inmate phone calls are 12 supposed to be monitored. And I believe - and 13 I could be completely wrong - but I believe 14 every Special Housing has a monitored phone 15 that is not - that doesn't require a PIN for 16 that purpose. Now, I could be completely 17 wrong. 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:50:52). 19 MR. : Yeah. It seems I recall - 20 and again, I have been out of the game for a 21 long time - but it seems like they were 22 requiring all of the Special Housings to have a 23 phone, and you would have to check with the 24 central office on this, but it seems like every 25 Special Housing was required to have a phone, EFTA00115811 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 that could be monitored, that was recorded, but 2 did not require the PIN, and that is why I said 3 the log, because it seems like they had to have 4 a log in there. It was for incidents like 5 that, where the phone system is not working, or 6 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. -- they don't have access to 9 it. And it was more of a family emergency. 10 Now, I could be completely off. I could be 11 wrong. But it seems like there was something 12 in place that there could be monitored calls 13 done when not using the inmate PIN, in the 14 Special Housing. 15 MR. : You said it was required. Is 16 this policy? If you recall. 17 MR. : Again, I'm telling you 18 something that I believe to be accurate, but it 19 was two and a half years ago. 20 MR. : Understood. 21 MR. : And it could be simply 22 something and it does, seems legit in my head 23 and it's not. But -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I seem to recall that EFTA00115812 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 there was always, in the Special Housing Units, 2 a phone in an office that could be recorded, 3 that was not part of the inmate telephone 4 system. 5 MR. : Who would be the best person 6 for me to get information, in regards to that? 7 MR. : Oh, I don't even know who 8 works in the Bureau anymore. Probably the 9 head, the correctional services administrator 10 in the central office. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Whoever that might be now. I 13 have no clue. 14 MR. : Okay. I appreciate that. 15 MR. : And I think the assistant 16 director of that division is still 17 (Phonetic Sp. *00:52:32), but I 18 don't know that he is still there or not. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Again, that could be 21 completely inaccurate, but - and I'm just going 22 back to, when I was a warden, before a regional 23 director, and it seems like I had a phone in 24 the Special Housing that they could use for 25 those type of phone calls. For recording when EFTA00115813 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 an inmate didn't have access to his PIN for 2 some reason. But that could be completely off, 3 too. I can't remember now. 4 MR. : Understood. 5 MR. : But going back to your 6 question. Yes, that would be concerning 7 because all phone calls should be recorded, or 8 at least monitored, that are not legal calls. 9 MR. : What could happen if a call 10 like that is not monitored? I understand if 11 Epstein, but if other inmates were allowed to 12 make the same type of phone call. 13 MR. Mm-hmm. Anything could. I 14 mean, you name it, it could happen. I mean, 15 stake plots (Phonetic Sp. *00:53:21), drug 16 deals. I mean, anything that shouldn't be -- 17 MR. : Understood. 18 MR. : -- happening in the prison 19 could be happening on the phone call. 20 MR. : Okay. , you got 21 anything else on the -? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : Okay. Mr. , do you 24 know anything about Epstein changing his will 25 prior to his death? EFTA00115814 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 MR. : No. Not really. I mean, if 2 somebody mentioned it after the fact, I may 3 have, but I don't recall that conversation with 4 anybody. 5 MR. : Is that -. 6 MR. : You said -- 7 MR. : -- is that -. 8 MR. -- you said he changed it 9 just prior to his death? 10 MR. : Yeah. Just prior to his 11 death. 12 MR. : Oh. 13 MR. : So, that is rumors we heard. 14 We don't know. That is something we heard. We 15 know -. We believe that it happened, but we 16 try to clarify -- 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : -- where that information 19 came from. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : Who was aware of it. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Do you know anything about 24 that information? 25 MR. : Do I know what? EFTA00115815 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 MR. : Do you know, do you recall 2 how you learned about that information, that he 3 changed his will? 4 MR. : I don't remember even if I -. 5 You are saying, do I remember someone telling 6 it to me. I don't know that I even know that. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : That doesn't sound familiar, 9 but I am not saying it didn't. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Is there something in the 12 after-action that he changed it? 13 MR. : No. That is a separate 14 question that we had. It is not in the after - 15 . I mean, , is that in the after-action? 16 MR. : Not that I recall. So, 17 did you -- 18 MR. : Gotcha. 19 MR. : -- had you heard about 20 this, and you are saying you never heard about 21 this? Is that right? 22 MR. : I don't remember hearing 23 about it. No. 24 MR. : Okay. No. That's fine. 25 We can move on, EFTA00115816 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Okay. During our 3 investigation, we reviewed -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- a number of emails. We 6 came across one email from you to Warden 7 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Dated August 10th, 2019. The 10 email reads - this is the day that he was found 11 - and Epstein was found, it says, "Why did the 12 count change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. 13 and 3:00 a.m." Do you recall this email? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Do you recall if there was an 16 incident, there was an issue with the count? 17 MR. : Not really. 18 MR. : That day. 19 MR. : No. Was there a count 20 incident that night, too? 21 MR. : This is August 10th. So, 22 this is the morning of. This is between - 23 yeah. So, Epstein -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- or was removed on EFTA00115817 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August 9th. Epstein was allowed to make a 2 phone call that night, on August 9th. He was 3 placed back in his cell. And he was found on 4 August 10th, Saturday morning 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- at approximately 6:30 a.m. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : So, when he was found, this 9 is the day. On the day of that, you send an 10 email out, asking why the count, from midnight, 11 between 12:00 a.m. and 3:00 a.m. on August 10th 12 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. -- why did the count change 15 from 73 to 72? 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Do you recall there being an 18 issue with the count? 19 MR. : I mean, honestly, if I sent 20 an email, there was. But I don't recall why 21 sent it, or what I saw to make me send it. 22 MR. : Okay. Well -. 23 MR. : I mean, on that day, as you 24 can imagine, that day was pretty hectic. So, 25 asking the, I mean, I probably sent a million EFTA00115818 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 emails that day. 2 MR. : Okay. Do you What did 3 you learn with regard to the activities of the 4 MCC SHU counts and rounds on August 9th and 5 10th. In 2019. 6 MR. : I couldn't begin to guess 7 what I learned on that day. I have no clue. 8 MR. : Okay. Do you recall there 9 afterwards, do you recall any, knowing that 10 there was any issues with the rounds or the 11 counts that were conducted? 12 MR. : On the day of? 13 MR. : On the day of. 14 MR. : Well, I think we found they 15 didn't do the rounds. 16 MR. : That would be the overnight 17 counts. The overnight rounds. Right? 18 MR. : Right. The night that he - 19 whatever time he committed suicide. I mean, 20 think part of that was finding they didn't do 21 rounds. 22 MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, 23 aware of the SHU counts and rounds, were or 24 were not conducted by the SHU staff on August 25 9th and 10th? So, I'm now asking about both EFTA00115819 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 days. 2 MR. : Well, no. 3 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:57:10). 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. first ask him. 6 So, sorry, sir, I'm just going to have to 7 interrupt -- 8 MR. : No. That's fine. 9 MR. : -- here. 10 MR. : That's fine. 11 MR. : So, you said you are 12 aware that they learned that the rounds weren't 13 conducted. Do you know how that information 14 came about? How did you guys learn that the 15 rounds were not conducted? 16 MR. : I couldn't begin to guess. I 17 wasn't aware of that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : I mean, that is I mean, I 20 have no You are asking me how did I learn 21 something two and a half years ago, and what 22 particular date, or who told me. I -. 23 MR. : No. And the reason 24 MR. : I think the whole world 25 Oh, go ahead. EFTA00115820 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- the problem, the 2 reason is, again, with this email review, it 3 was just, this email came up from you to the 4 warden, and just saying what happened with the 5 counts. But there was, he obviously, you guys 6 must have spoken about it afterwards, because 7 there is no response from him. So, the -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- follow up would be 10 that, like, he probably got on the phone with, 11 and probably explained it to you. 12 MR. : Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm assuming. 13 I probably talked to him a thousand times that 14 day. So. 15 MR. : Totally. 16 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 17 MR. : So, and one of the 18 points, within the after-action report, was 19 that it was discovered that rounds and counts 20 were not conducted. So -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- the question to you is 23 just if you recalled what the conversation you 24 had, if any, with the warden, with regards to 25 the counts, and if you know how it was learned EFTA00115821 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 that these counts and rounds were in fact not 2 conducted. 3 MR. : I really don't -. I mean, I 4 mean, I don't even want to begin to guess. 5 Probably, they sent me the counts for the night 6 before, because it would be something that I 7 would have asked for. In an incident like 8 that. Something pretty routine to request. 9 And I was probably looking at them, and noticed 10 that something changed. I don't know which 11 counts you said -- 12 MR. : Well, it did. So -- 13 MR. : -- it would have been, like, 14 (Indiscernible *00:58:42). 15 MR. so, as background on 16 the lieutenant's log, it shows that there were 17 73 inmates assigned to the SHU at 11:59 18 MR. : Oh, see, I was -- 19 MR. : -- p.m. 20 MR. : -- looking at the 21 lieutenant's logs. 22 MR. : Probably. And then -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- at 12:00 a.m., it 25 shows that there is only 72. So -- EFTA00115822 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- there is a change from 3 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- from one day to the 6 next, showing 73 7 MR. : A change in the log. 8 MR. : -- to 72. 9 MR. : So, what that would be is if 10 I saw the 73 at the beginning of the log, and 11 if I saw 72 at the end, I would have went 12 through each line in the log to see where the 13 change was. So, it must have not been put in 14 the log somewhere, what the change was. 15 MR. : Yeah. And we, and most 16 of these questions, we know the answers to. We 17 are just trying - again, we don't want to jump 18 to a conclusion of maybe you know something 19 that we, you know, we don't. So, we just 20 wanted to know if you -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- if you had any 23 recollection of what the response was, or if 24 the warden, or whomever was able to provide you 25 any additional information with regard to that. EFTA00115823 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 But it sounds like -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- you can't recall. 4 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 5 MR. : That's okay. f you 6 can move on now. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Can I ask you real quick 9 about how much longer this is? 10 MR. -: just fly -- 11 MR. : Because this is a lot now. 12 MR. : -- through these. Do you 13 want me to take over, 14 MR. : Yeah. Go ahead. If you're 15 going to go through it quicker. 16 MR. : All right. 17 MR. : Yeah. I just have some 18 people to meet for dinner, and they are 19 probably going to be waiting on me soon. 20 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. Now, 21 do we have about 20 minutes. Would that be 22 okay? 23 MR. : Yeah. That's fine. 24 MR. : All right. So, the next, 25 one of the other things that was in the after- EFTA00115824 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 action report, it shows that the institution 2 duty officers. Now, what is an institutional 3 duty officer? What -? 4 MR. : The institutional duty 5 officer. So, it's a supervisor. I need to 6 walk out. I want to make sure there is nobody 7 in here. So, the institution duty officer is a 8 supervisor. Typically, the department head, 9 and they just are at the facility at non-duty 10 hours. So, typically, they stay until 8:00 or 11 9:00 at night during the week, and they are 12 there on the weekends. And just kind of 13 monitor the operations of the facility. On 14 behalf of the warden. 15 MR. : Okay. So -- 16 MR. : And yeah. They 17 (Indiscernible *01:00:49). 18 MR. : -- so, are they -. 19 MR. : They just kind of report what 20 they saw or heard during the weekend. 21 MR. : So, is an IDO something 22 different than, like, the operations lieutenant 23 or the II, or -? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Is it? EFTA00115825 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah. MR. : It's a totally different MR. : Yeah. So, the operations -. Yeah. The duty officer is more the eyes and ears of the warden when the warden is not there. MR. : Okay. And it say, "IDOs do not routinely visit SHU each day, as required by the institution supplement," a:1 then, it gives a number. It says, "Additionally, the IDO document the condition when observations have reports consistently of SHU as satisfactory shown the SHU to be less than satisfactory." So, our main question there was just, who was this IDO that you are referring to? So, that is an actual position title? MR. : Yes. No, no, no. Each department head, typically it's, at facilities, in every facilities in there, there's somewhere that will have a list of positions that require you to cover as the IDO. So, like, your education department head, your food service administrator, your unit managers. Those are EFTA00115826 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 all department heads. And so, they have to 2 rotate through the duty officer schedule. And 3 say, I want to say it is a Tuesday to Tuesday 4 schedule. In most facilities. And so, they 5 come in Tuesday afternoon. They will stay 6 until 9 o'clock each night. And they work 7 straight through to the next Tuesday. And just 8 kind of reporting to the warden if there is any 9 concerns. If any incidents happened at the 10 institution. The duty officers want it, 11 reports it to the warden. That kind of stuff. 12 MR. : Great. So, we will have 13 to -- 14 MR. : Yeah. It is an -- 15 MR. : -- talk to the warden. 16 MR. : -- it is an assignment that 17 comes around. It usually comes around maybe 18 two or three times a year. To each department 19 head. 20 MR. : Okay. So, this 21 transitions to lieutenant rounds. We have been 22 hearing different things about what a 23 lieutenant round actually entails. Do you know 24 if -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00115827 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 MR. : -- when a lieutenant 2 conducts a round in the SHU, are they required 3 to conduct a round of the actual inmates 4 themselves, or does a lieutenant round just 5 consist of them checking in with the SHU staff 6 officers to make sure everything is okay? 7 MR. : You say required? I don't 8 know what the policy specifically says. The 9 expectation is they should be doing rounds on 10 every range, because they are supposed to be 11 monitoring the facility itself. So, how are 12 they going to know what's happening if they 13 don't go down range? 14 MR. : Sure. So, the 15 expectation would be that a lieutenant is 16 actually conducting a round the same way that a 17 staff member would be conducting a round? 18 MR. : Not necessarily the same way. 19 They are not doing cell by cell, you know, 20 counts and stuff like that. But they should be 21 going up and down the range, checking on 22 inmates. I'm not, you know, I'm not going to 23 say they are going to expect them to stop at 24 every cell and talk to every inmate. But they 25 should be going down range, and if inmates EFTA00115828 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 holler at them, they need something, or they 2 stop in and check on them from time to time, 3 that is part of it. 4 MR. : Now, and that is what 5 most lieutenants are telling us, but we have a 6 select few that are trying to tell us that, no, 7 lieutenants aren't required to do that. All a 8 lieutenant is supposed to do is to make sure 9 that the staff members are okay, and that they 10 have everything that they need. Do you think 11 that that is -? 12 MR. : I would say it's a pretty 13 poor to average lieutenant, then. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : And then, let me see, 17 what is this purpose for? 18 MR. : If want to check on the 19 officer, because they can just call them. They 20 don't have to go down and see if they are okay. 21 MR. : Right. Exactly. So, I 22 guess that is the good point. They could just 23 call on -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- the phone, they EFTA00115829 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 wouldn't have to actually do that. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Do you know if, when they 4 sign, like, there is a - on their round sheets 5 - there is, like, a lieutenants' signature. 6 And it says that they conducted the round in 7 the SHU. Do you think that that, then, means 8 that they actually conducted a round, going 9 down range? 10 MR. : It means actually going - 11 yeah - to me, that means actually doing rounds. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : All right. 15 MR. : And there have been, and I 16 will tell you, there have been lieutenants in 17 the past that have got significant discipline 18 for having the logbooks brought to the 19 lieutenants office, because they wouldn't even 20 go to the units. For that very reason. They 21 have to go to the location and actually look 22 around, and see what is going on, to make sure 23 everything is okay. 24 MR. : Okay. Great. 25 I'm going to skip ahead. I'm going to skip EFTA00115830 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 some of this since we're on -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- tough on time. Let's 4 see. So, here is one. So, we have a, there 5 was a timeline in the after-action report. And 6 this is the actual incident itself. It says, 7 "On August 10th, 2019, at 6:33 a.m., a body 8 alarm is activated in the Special Housing Unit. 9 SHU staff reported that Epstein was 10 unresponsive in his cell." It says, "Sentry 11 does not reflect this accurately. Staff 12 entered the cell and attempted to wake inmate 13 Epstein. Control center announced a medical 14 emergency, and CPR was initiated." It says, 15 "At 7:36 a.m., inmate Epstein was pronounced 16 dead by the emergency room physician." Do you 17 know - and this is where we get a confusing 18 information - do you know if Epstein showed any 19 signs of life between 6:33 a.m., when he was 20 found, until 7:36, when he was pronounced dead? 21 MR. : No. I don't. I don't recall 22 ever hearing anything about his status between 23 the time that they found him to the time they 24 pronounced him. 25 MR. : Now, is there any EFTA00115831 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 unofficial policy, saying that an inmate can't 2 or shouldn't be pronounced dead at the 3 institution? Because that just causes 4 problems, and you should always wait to get to 5 the hospital? 6 MR. : I mean, there is, you hear 7 those rumors. I mean, I remember when I was an 8 officer, and no inmates dies in prison type of 9 thing. But no, I mean, you try to resuscitate, 10 but there have been inmates, from time to time, 11 very rarely, that are pronounced inside the 12 facility. And typically, what happens in that 13 situation is the rescue squad arrives. They 14 start, you know, resuscitation or whatever, and 15 they determine that this person has expired, 16 they will call the, you know, whatever is 17 required at that jurisdiction, the , and 18 the will pronounce them, based on the 19 information provided from the rescue squad. 20 I'm not sure what the requirement is in New 21 York on that. 22 MR. : Okay. Now, going on in 23 the report, it says - this is after the 24 timeline - it says, "SHU has multiple cells 25 equipped with video recording capability. EFTA00115832 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 Inmate Epstein was not housed in one of these 2 cells. And there appears to be no set guidance 3 on when to utilize these cells." Do you know 4 if Epstein should have been placed in one of 5 these cells, with the -? 6 MR. : No. Those cells should not 7 even have existed. Those were left over from 8 9/11. After 9/11, when they started bringing in 9 all the terrorists. There is actually 10 requirements not to have those areas recorded 11 because it's a PREA violation. So, most 12 facilities only have one or two cells that will 13 have a camera. And that is typically only for 14 an inmate who may be placed in four-point 15 restraints, for continuous monitoring. Or in a 16 suicide watch cell. But just for general 17 cells, that facility just had a lot of them 18 because they were never removed after 9/11. 19 MR. : All right. So, the fact 20 that this says this in the after-action report, 21 you kind of disagree with that? 22 MR. : The fact that it was, I mean, 23 the fact that it was available, could they have 24 used it? Sure. But is it required? No. 25 MR. : All right. And do you EFTA00115833 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 believe that it should not have been utilized? 2 It just sounds like it shouldn't, because you 3 said, it sounded like there was some 4 violations, the only reason they are there for, 5 like, more like terroristic things. 6 MR. : Well, I'm sorry. What does 7 it say again? 8 MR. : The specific point says, 9 "SHU has multiple cells equipped with video 10 recording capability. Inmate Epstein was not 11 housed in one of these cells, and there appears 12 to be no set guidance on when to utilize these 13 cells." 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : So, it doesn't really say 16 anything, but it is addressed in your after- 17 action report. 18 MR. : And the reason is because 19 they were there. And the reason of that, they 20 did the investigation for me, was aware they 21 were there. And basically just saying is, you 22 got this, this technology, you need to have 23 something in writing about when and how you can 24 use it. And since, it is not saying they 25 should have used it. EFTA00115834 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. : No. And that's right. 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:09:05). 3 MR. : And that's where my 4 question to you, should have they? 5 MR. : I don't think so because, 6 especially, you know, unfortunately, with who 7 he was, and the kind of money he has, he could 8 have used that against us. For violating some 9 kind of privacy right or something. And so, 10 that is why, typically, those cells are not 11 used. In very rare instances they are used. 12 And I don't even think they exist now. I think 13 they were removed some time later. Or 14 disconnected. But I think his point was, you 15 have them, you need to have something in 16 writing saying how they are used. 17 MR. : Okay. So, this is going 18 to be my last thing, because you've got to run, 19 and this is, I'm going to read you kind of a 20 more, it's a whole paragraph, so it's a little 21 bit of a lengthy. So, just bear with me, if 22 you don't mind. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. : This is from the after- 25 action report. It says, "He was also an inmate EFTA00115835 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 who had risk factors for assault by other 2 inmates, and did require careful selection for 3 appropriate cellmates. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Although these issues 6 were noted, well-documented, and communicated, 7 a failure still occurred by allowing inmate 8 Epstein to be placed in a cell alone. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Although feasible for an 11 inmate to effectuate suicide while housed with 12 a cellmate, the odds -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- of this occurring are 15 significantly lowered when housed with another 16 inmate." 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : The report then 19 continues. "It is apparent various staff at 20 the institution made a point of ensuring inmate 21 Epstein had an assigned cellmate. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : The captain personally 24 instructed the lieutenants, individually. A 25 mass email was distributed by psychology. And EFTA00115836 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 it is apparent some SHU officers were aware. 2 Although many people acknowledged this is an 3 important fact, ultimately, the final staff 4 responsible did not ensure the requirement was 5 met. Including vital directives, such as 6 celimate requirements, and a mass email, does 7 not ensure those who truly need that 8 information do in fact receive it timely. In 9 this case, inmate Epstein was actually placed 10 with a cellmate when removed from psychology 11 observation. After that moment, it is clear 12 there was no additional written directive, or a 13 fail safe system, established to ensure inmate 14 Epstein would have a celimate going forward." 15 Did you follow all that? 16 MR. : Yeah. I did. 17 MR. : It seems like that's your 18 kind of ultimate conclusion, or the - not yours 19 personally -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- but I mean, like, the 22 after-action sounds like 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. the ultimate 25 conclusion there was, hey, if he actually had a EFTA00115837 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 cellmate, this would have much less -. Thin, 2 would have -- 3 MR. : Unlikely. 4 MR. wouldn't -- 5 MR. : That less likely happened. 6 MR. : -- correct. And is that 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- what your kind of 10 overall understanding -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- of the after-action 13 was? 14 MR. : I mean, yeah, that is the 15 Bureau's stance on that is, with any suicide, 16 is the chances of suicide are much more 17 diminished when they have a cellmate. Doesn't 18 mean it's not going to happen, because it has 19 happened. But it is less likely that that 20 would be the outcome. 21 MR. : So, and on, I know that 22 that is a really, there is a lot of different 23 ways you can answer this question, but, like -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- ultimately, in this EFTA00115838 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 case, from what you recall, and from just what 2 we've talked about today, who ultimately was 3 responsible for making sure that that -? 4 mean, I know we talked about the OIC 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : -- is the one who knew -. 7 MR. : I mean, and to conclude your 8 investigation. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just 10 mean, because, I mean, the OIC knew he was WAB. 11 That Ops Lieutenant is saying that he knew he 12 was gone. But just didn't know he wasn't 13 coming back. But then, that Ops Lieutenant 14 didn't provide that information 15 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 16 *01:12:38). 17 MR. : -- to the -. 18 MR. : From what you told me, what 19 conversation we've had for the last hour, and 20 the information you provided me, it sounds 21 like, one) that a lieutenant, at some point, 22 don't know which one, or how many, failed to 23 follow up on the information they had; and two) 24 it sounds like an OIC on one or multiple shifts 25 failed to follow up, as well. EFTA00115839 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. : Now, and that sounds like 2 what we are in agreement to. I just didn't 3 know, well, you know -- 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- we wanted to ask the 6 question, being that you are the regional 7 director. You were the -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- regional director at 10 the time. To see if, like, you agreed -- 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : -- with that. That it 13 sounds like it was a failure of the OIC, as 14 well as of the lieutenant. Not to pass it -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- up to the captain or 17 to his relieving shift. 18 MR. : Yeah. I mean, especially if, 19 you told me that the lieutenant was made aware 20 of it that day, that he was relieved and moved 21 out. Then it sounds like there should have 22 been some steps started, at that point. 23 MR. : All right. Great. So, 24 would you, from what you know, think that, you 25 know, if the counts and rounds weren't EFTA00115840 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 conducted, as well as the Epstein not being 2 housed with a cellmate, those would be the two 3 most contributing factors of the reason why he 4 5 MR. : Oh, those are. 6 MR. : -- died? 7 MR. : Those are. Other than others 8 I may not know, the not doing your rounds, not 9 doing your counts, and not putting a cellmate 10 in with him, those are definitely the two 11 things that led to this. 12 MR. : Great. And then, my 13 sorry, I did say that was my last question - my 14 I guess final, overall conclusion, or overall 15 question would be, do you know, is there any 16 reason to believe that Epstein didn't take his 17 own life? 18 MR. : I have no information or 19 reason to believe that. No. 20 MR. : All right. Great. 21 , do you have anything further? 22 MR. : No. That's it. 23 MR. : I can't thank you enough 24 for taking the time -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00115841 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- we know you are -- 2 MR. : Well -- 3 MR. : -- doing this on your 4 personal -. 5 MR. : -- sorry I couldn't be more 6 helpful, but this has been a long time since 7 then, and -- 8 MR. : No. You're -- 9 MR. : -- but I tried. I 10 intentionally tried to forget most of it, but 11 after all that happened. 12 MR. : I know. I totally 13 understand. We can't thank you enough. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : Again, this is an ongoing 16 investigation -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- so, we can't tell you 19 not to, but if you could just not discuss this 20 21 MR. : Oh, of course. 22 MR. : -- this stuff, we would 23 greatly appreciate it. 24 MR. Yup. I hear enough of it on 25 the news. I don't need to hear it from other EFTA00115842 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 people. 2 MR. : Right. is the 3 case agent, so if you have anything, you know, 4 you can go through him, or if you need to a get 5 hold of me -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- you can go through 8 him. 9 MR. : And just, I was going to tell 10 you, so, , as I mentioned to you, my 11 phone doesn't take calls from any number that 12 is not in my contacts. So, I did 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : I did add your cell number 15 to my contacts. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : But that is the only number 18 that it will come through. 19 MR. : Understood. Okay. Because, 20 you know what? My number is blocked when I -. 21 Automatically blocked. So, if I have to reach 22 out to you, I know that it's got to be 23 unblocked before I give you a call. 24 MR. : Okay. Not a problem. 25 MR. : Thank you very much, sir. EFTA00115843 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 *01:15:25). : 101 Thank you. (Indiscernible 3 MR. : Thank you. 4 MR. : Enjoy your dinner. 5 MR. : All right. Thanks, guys. 6 All right. Bye. 7 MR. : Bye. 8 MR. : It is currently 6:25 p.m. 9 on October 13th, 2021, and the interview has 10 concluded. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00115844 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00115845