EFTA00115849.pdf

1 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: NONE 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 3 4 1 YR. : This is special agent 1 General. And these are 2 . The recorder is now on. My name is 2 my credentia s. 3 . I'm a special agent with the 3 MR. Okay. And my name is 4 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the 4 Senior Officer with the Federal Bureau S Inspector General, New York Field Office, and 5 of Prisons. 6 these are m, credentials. 6 MR. : And spell your last name, 7 MR. : All right. 7 too. 8 MR. : This interview is with 8 MR. 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee, 9 MR. : Thank you, sir. 10 It is being conducted as part of an 10 YR. : This is an official DOJ/OIG 11 official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of 11 investigation into the death of inmate, Jeffrey 12 the Inspector General investigation. Today is 12 Epstein, and the surrounding circumstances. 13 August 5th, 2021, and the time is 6:19 p.m. 13 You are being asked to voluntarily provide 14 This interview is being conducted at the 14 answers to our questions. Will you agree to a 15 Metropolitan Correctional Center, MCC, 150 Park 15 voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 17 Row, New York City. Also resent is DOJ/OIG Senior Special Agent, . This 16 17 MR. MR. : Yes. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 18 interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent 18 III-226/2. It states, the United States 19 . Could everyone please identify 19 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 20 themselves for the record, and spell your last 20 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 21 name? To start, a ain, I am DOJ/OIG Special 21 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 22 Agent, 22 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 23 MR. : M name is senior special 23 information as part of an investigation being 24 agent, , with the U.S. 24 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00115849 S 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure, security failure, and 4 false certifications. This is a voluntary 5 interview. Accordingly -- 6 MR. Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- you do not have to answer 8 any questions. No disciplinary action will be 9 taken against you if you choose not to answer 10 any questions. 11 MR. Uh-huh. 12 MR. : Any statement you furnish may 13 be used as evidence in any future criminal 14 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 15 proceedin s, or both." 16 MR. : Uh-huh. 17 MR. : The waiver states, "I 18 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 19 above and I am willing to make a statement and 20 answer questions. No promises or threats have 21 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 22 any kind has been used against me." Please 23 review the form. If you understand and agree, 24 sign your name, and print your name right below 25 it. 6 1 MR. : Here's a pen for you, if 2 you need one. 3 MR. So, do I need a union rep for 4 this? S MR. : You could have one, if 6 you want, but like we mentioned, it's going to 7 be primarily to review the statement that you 8 already provided. 9 MR. • Okay. 10 MR. : And just to ask for some 11 clarification on some of the information that 12 you provided. 13 MR. : Let's get this over with. 14 MR. : Thank you for signing. This 15 is Agent . I'm going to put the date as 16 August Sth, 2021. And the time is 6:22 p.m. 17 The place is MCC, New York. I'm signing at the 18 line for signature of the Office of the 19 Inspector General, Special Agent. Senior 20 Special A ent would you sign it? 21 MR. : This is 22 . I'm signing as the witness. 23 MR. : Did you understand the form? 24 MR. Yes. 25 MR. : You understand it's a 7 1 voluntary interview -- 2 MR. Yeah. 3 MR. : -- and you can end the 4 interview. S 6 MR. Like -. MR. : You don't have to answer if 7 you don't rant to. 8 MR. : It's been like this every 9 time. 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. Yeah. 12 MR. : Before starting the 13 interview, I would like to place you under 14 oath. Can you please raise your right hand? 15 Mr. , do you swear to tell the truth and 16 nothing but the truth during this interview? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Thank you. You can put your 19 hand down. Mr. , please let me know if 20 you do not understand any questions I ask, and 21 I will try and repeat it, or try to rephrase it 22 for you. 23 MR. Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Okay. I just wanted to show 25 the recorder is right there. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 MR. Yup. MR. IIIIII!ii!hat is your current home address? rent home address would be MR. : W ere is that? MR. In MR. • art? MR. • MR. • Okay. What is your date o irt ? MR. MR. : What is your social security number? MR. MR. : IM current phone number? MR. MR. : What is your highest level of education? MR. High school with some college. • MR. : What hi h school? MR. : Okay. And some college. Did EFTA00115850 9 10 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you earn a de ree? MR. : No. I haven't finished that. I started in And then, I did online. So, and now, I acing here. MR. What major are you following? MR. It was criminal justice. MR. : Were you planning - you were going to finish that up, you said? MR. I want to. MR. • Okay. Do you have any military service? MR. : Yes. MR. : What branch? MR. MR. : Honorably discharged? MR. : Yes. MR. MR. : When did serve? to MR. And what grade were you when you left? MR. I was an E4 when I left. MR. : Okay. How long have you served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? MR. : Approximately lillyears now. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : What was your enter on duty date? MR. year. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Yeah. It was Yeah. Because I just made 'ears. But I could et that, as -- MR. • Oh, that's easy. MR. • -- a paper. MR. : It's fine. It's just a know approximately when you started. MR. : Okay. And what did you prior to working at the Metropolitan Correctional Center? MR. • Cleaning job. And car dealershiiiiiiintil I landed this. MR. : Okay. And what year did you start here a al. MR. MR. : With the MCC? MR. Yes. MR. : Have you been here at the MCC the whole time? MR. : Yes. • It can be a month and 11 1 MR. : Okay. What is your current 2 position with the MCC? 3 MR. Senior Officer. 4 MR. : Who is your current 5 supervisor? 6 MR. The Operations Lieutenant. 7 MR. : What's the name? 8 MR. . I think is the 9 Operations tonight. 10 MR. : Operations Lieutenant. Do 11 you -? 12 MR. : So, what do you mean by 13 that? It's every day, it's a different one, or 14 (Indiscernible *00:06:1S)? 15 MR. : It can very well be. So, the 16 lieutenants sometimes will work on a different 17 schedule than us. So, our schedule, like, a 18 schedule mi ht not line up, like, tonight I'm 19 working, 20 like, yesterday, it was is workinillit now, but some - that was 21 working. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 MR. So, you know, you never know. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Do you recall being 12 1 previously interviewed by the FBI and OIG 2 regarding the Epstein investigation? 3 MR. Yes. 4 MR. : I'm going to read you a 5 summary of the FBI's notes. The reason, these 6 notes belong to the FBI, but because the OIG 7 was present, we do have the notes along with 8 you, too. So I'm going to read it -- 9 MR. Uh-huh. 10 MR. : -- just tell me if there's 11 any corrections, or -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. -- anything that's missing. 14 MR. Okay. 15 MR. : I'm going to go right into 16 it. " informed that he has been a guard 17 with the Bureau" -. 18 MR. : Yeah, yeah. Start from 19 the beginfling,_ 20 MR. 'I'll': All right. So, "On September 21 25, 2019, at approximately 11:30 hours, the 22 d, along with Special Agent 23 of the Offic ctor 24 General, Special Agent of the 25 Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Assistant EFTA00115851 13 1 United States Attornexidajltatifin 2 district of New York, and 3 did interview Federal Bureau of 4 Prisons Correctional Guard, 5 Date of birth: at the Southern 6 District of New York. This interview was 7 conducted in the presence of attorney. 8 informed that he has been a guard with 9 the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) for approximately 10 three years, all of which have been at the 11 Metropolitan Correctional Center." 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : So, are you represented 14 in this matter? Are you represented in this 15 matter? 16 MR. 17 had a law er -- 18 MR. : Yeah. So, this is -- 19 MR. -- then. 20 MR. . -- so, I do want to make 21 sure you understand this is a voluntary 22 interview. I know that you had an attorney 23 there. Are you good with us reviewing this 24 report, and -? 25 MR. : Yeah. We could review it real Yeah. I guess so. I mean, I 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 quick, and just et this over with. MR. : Okay. MR. informed that he has completed all the basic and required training for being a guard in the BOP, and that he is currently the senior officer in the Special Housing Unit SHU)." MR. : Well, then I was. MR. : At that point. Okay. And August 2019? MR. MR. MR. Mm-hmm. : Okay. Did you -? I wasn't the number one 14 officer that night, but -. MR. : Who was that number one officer? MR. I'm not even sure. MR. : Here's the daily assignment roster from that night. MR. : Can you see it, by looking at the -? We provided the MCC New York roster for August 94'11219. MR. IIIII: Okay. He was on OT. Yeah. I was the number three man. MR. : You were number three. Who 15 1 was number one? Are you pointing to III 2 3 MR. Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Now, was - was 6 he non-custod , though? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So, being that he was 9 non-custody, mould you actually be kind of the 10 OIC, being that you were, like, were you more 11 senior, or -? 12 MR. : No. Actually, he has more 13 time in the Bureau than I do. 14 MR. : He does? Okay. So, he 15 would be kind of responsible, at the time, 16 then? 17 MR. : Yeah. Like, the way it's a 18 very tricky thing, the way that that works 19 here. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : You know, so, even if - 22 because he has more time than me, he's not - 23 because he started in custody - he has more 24 time than me, so I guess when they gave him the 25 overtime, they just, like, filled in the slot. 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 MR. : Okay. MR. : You know, I worked in there every day, at that point in time, but what am I supposed to tell the man, like, yo, you're number one, what am I supposed to anybody? MR. : Sure. So, technically, because he's number one, he was the OIC? MR. MR. also in SHU. MR. : Oh, like, oh, yeah, the annual Yeah. : I gotcha. But, you know, that's -. : Have you received MCC MR. MR. MR. MR. refresher training? Annual refresher training? In SHU? : In SHU, MCC training, and MR. : Yeah. MR. • -- training or whatever? MR. : Yeah. MR. : Like, yeah. I just did that on the com uter this year. MR. : Ask him -- MR. : Did you have -. MR. : -- you know, you want to EFTA00115852 17 18 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ask him about at the time. MR. : I'm going back. Yeah. In 2019, did you receive the annual MCC refresher training? MR. : I believe so. I don't even remember at this point, but I could look it up in the comuter MR. : Everybody pretty much does every year, though. Correct? Yeah. : So, you (Indiscernible MR. MR. *00:10:10). MR. : But we're supposed to. But sometimes we'll be off. MR. : Sure. MR. : Do you recall, in 2019, if you received the SHU training? MR. : Quarterly training. MR. arterly training. MR. : In order to your -. You were, like assigned to the SHU. MR. : Yeah. At some point in time, I probably did. What the dates are, I don't remember. MR. : Okay. What about the suicide 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 preventioiliiiiiiii? In 2019. MR. : That would have been part of the SHU. MR. : Part of the SHU training. MR. : Yeah, as well as part of MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- the annual refresher training. MR. : Yeah. I've seen that on the computer before, too. Now, in 2019, I don't remember. It was -- MR. : Sure. MR. : -- It was too --. MR. : Okay. We're going to go -- MR. : Maybe it was something that was mentioned in the course, that -- MR. MR. MR. MR. : Right. Yeah, yeah. -- it's 2021, right? : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. : I understand. "When asked about his activities for August 9th, 2019, replied, 'I assumed that's Epstein day.' informed that, as far as he can recall, he worked the 2:00 p.m. by 10:00 p.m. shift." 19 1 MR. . Yes. 2 MR. : Can you let me know who else 3 worked with you during that shift? According to 4 when you - if you can refer to the roster. S MR. : Okay. For 2:00 to 10:00, this 6 is me right here, coming in at 2:00 to 10:00. 7 And so, when I came in, some of these people 8 from the dayshift was still here. 9 MR. : Can you - because we're 10 recording -- 11 MR. : Oh. 12 MR. -- say the names that you're 13 pointing to. 14 MR. : Okay. So, when I came in to 15 do SHU number three, you had 16 still working. And then, at 4:00, when 17 the shift change came_gns_Iliis is when these 18 individuals came on, IIIIIIII, IIII. Well, 19 IIII was already there, I believe. Because she 20 got stuck for overtime that night. But that's 21 when they came in. And then, nobody was 22 assigned to SHU four, after 4:00. 23 MR. : So, you started 2:00 p.m.? 24 MR. I started at 2:00 p.m. 25 MR. : And during the time that you 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 started, • , and MR. MR. came on? MR. because he's MR. p.m., MR. overtime. MR. on. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : And I'm going to read that line again. informed that, as far as he can recall, he worked a 2:00 p.m. by 10:00 p.m. shift, and did not see Epstein for the majority of his shift because Epstein was with his lawyers all day." MR. Yes. MR. first recalls seeing Epstein at approximately 8:00 p.m., and at that time, informed BOP guard that's 20 - you said was still there? Mm-hmm. : And at 4:00 p.m., left when I came in, 1400. His time ended. : Okay. And then, at 4:00 came in? Yeah. He came up for came in for her regular shift. : Okay. I'm going to continue EFTA00115853 21 22 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : "That Epstein needed to make a phone call. informed that he made the MR. 'I'll' That's backwards. MR. : Go ahead. Clarify that for me. MR. : What happened was is, informed me that he needed to make a phone call. That's, like, because I can't make that determination, and that's not an officer, that's a unit manager. MR. : So, is a unit manager? MR. MR. offhand? MR. : No. MR. : Okay. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. Yeah. Do you know his first name, ? Is that a yes? Yes. Okay. : That's all right. Sorry. : No problem. 1 MR. : That's only because of 2 this. 3 MR. Yeah, yeah. 4 MR. : You know, picking it up. S MR. : So -- 6 MR. : I knew what you meant. 7 MR. : -- that night,1/22you in 8 the SHU when this happened? Did IIIIIII 9 approach ou in the SHU? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : So, that night, when that 12 happened, I'm running around, as I normally do, 13 doing things in the SHU. I get the call on the 14 radio. You know, you've got to return, coming 15 into SHU, or whatever. So, when he gets 16 brought in or whatever -- 17 MR. : Who gets brought in? 18 MR. -- Epstein. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Epstein gets brought into the 21 SHU. lust like normal, you know, like, you 22 take them, pat search them, and everything like 23 that before you put them in the cell. So, 24 informed me, hey, he needs to make a 25 phone call, I don't know if, like, you know, 23 1 the judge or anybody tell him that, like, yeah, 2 he gets to make a phone call or whatever. So, 3 okay, no problem. You know, you're owing me at 4 this point in time or whatever. So, now, at 5 that point in time, there was a lot of stuff 6 going on. That, I do remember. There was a 7 lot of things going on. Two other inmates 8 attempted suicides, and, you know -. 9 MR. : We'll come to -. I'm going 10 to go throw h that, too. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : You said, so, approximately 13 what time did Epstein get brought back? Do you 14 recall? 15 MR. : It was 8:00 something, but it 16 was, like, very close to, like, the end of the 17 day. It was locking time. The day was done. 18 Because Epstein usually did that. He would 19 stay with his lawyers from the time in the 20 morning, to the end, when they couldn't stay no 21 more. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, he would wait all the way 24 to the very end. And he came back after the 25 legal visits were done, that's around the time 24 1 he came back. That day, a specific time, I 2 can't remember. But I know it was around 8:00 3 ish, you know 8:00, 9:00 ish. 4 MR. : That's fine. 5 MR. : Because the legal visits 6 usually end about 8:00. But, you know, there 7 was other thins going on. You know that? 8 MR. : Who brought him back? 9 MR. handed him off to me. 10 MR. : So -- 11 MR. If I remember correctly. 12 MR. -- so, he brought him back 13 from attorne visiting? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : So, he handed him off to me, 17 and told me he needed a phone call or whatever. 18 So, I had to put Epstein, you know - where'd I 19 put him? - I had to put him in the shower 20 because I couldn't put him in the room, with 21 the phone, by himself, and I'm pulling out 22 other inmates at the time, because one of them 23 had a noose tied around his neck. He was 24 probably playing it, but you can't joke like 25 that. EFTA00115854 25 26 1 MR. : Which inmate? Do you recall? 1 like, did walk with you to the -? Did 2 MR. I don't remember his name at 2 he come into the shower area with you? 3 the moment. 3 MR. No. 4 MR. : Okay. And so, you put him in 4 MR. : Well, who provided him S the shower, ou said? S the call? Did give him the phone, or 6 MR. : Yeah. 6 did you give him the phone? 7 MR. : And what did instruct 7 MR. I think gave him the 8 you? 8 phone. 9 MR. : And what - oh, just to give 9 MR. : All right. 10 him a social call, and that's it. 10 MR. Because I didn't hand him the 11 MR. : So, it was a social call, he 11 phone. 12 mentioned? 12 MR. : Oka L_____ 13 MR. Mm-hmm. 13 MR. I mean, IIIIIII told me what 14 MR. : Not a legal call? 14 he, you know, what he needed or whatever. 15 MR. I believe it was a social 15 Okay. No problem. Took him over there to the 16 call. 16 shower, put him in there, and then, I can't 17 MR. : And do you recall, who 17 remember who plugged in the phone, to give him 18 plugged thuhione in? Was it you or M? 18 the phone call. I don't remember right now. 19 MR. IIIII: I don't remember who plugged 19 MR. : Because did you -- 20 the phone in. 20 MR. : You might add -. 21 MR. : Okay. And do you remember 21 MR. : -- ever finish that 22 who he said that Epstein wanted to talk to? 22 sentence? So finish the sentence -- 23 MR. : No. He never told me who 23 MR. Yeah. 24 Epstein wanted to talk to. 24 MR. : -- before asking the 25 MR. : Was any of the instructions, 25 questions. 27 28 1 MR. Like -. 1 MR. Yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Because it was two years 3 MR. : I'm going to read that. 4 ago. He's got to -. And doesn't it say in 4 " informed that he made the decision to S there -- S have Epstein call from the G-tier shower to 6 MR. : Yeah. It'll go. 6 make the call, and believes guards and 7 MR. : -- that -. 7 were present, as well. informed 8 MR. • " informed that he made 8 that dialed the number for Epstein." 9 the decision to have Epstein call from G-tier 9 MR. There we go. Yeah, because 10 shower to make the call, and believes -." 10 this was time 11 MR. : That, I did. Because I told 11 MR. • "IIIII further informed that iiiiii 12 him, put him over here. Because we couldn't 12 he did not overhear the conversation, and that 13 put him next to these other inmates. That, 13 was present for the call initially. 14 yeah. 14 And then, left before the call ended. 15 MR. : Okay. Because those are the 15 says that durin the Epstein call, another 16 inmates that was threatening suicide? 16 inmate, was claiming to want to come 17 MR. Yeah. 17 in from suici e, so that diverted some guards 18 MR. : Okay. 18 from Epstein." And do you know how long 19 MR. They were, and they were on 19 Epstein's call lasted? 20 his tier. 20 MR. : I'm not sure how long that 21 MR. : Okay. 21 call lasted. I'm sure we could look on the 22 MR. : So, on L-tier? 22 computer and 23 MR. Yeah. 23 MR. : Do you know if 24 MR. : Was, people were 24 plugged that line into the legal line, or the - 2S threatening suicide? 2S ? EFTA00115855 29 1 MR. I'll" I don't. 2 MR. : You don't know if it was a 3 recorded hone call? 4 MR. : I don't. S MR. : Okay. And was that normal? 6 Does normally do that? Allow calls on 7 the legal line, or -? 8 MR. : Not without permission, to my 9 knowledge. 10 MR. : Who would have to give 11 permission? 12 MR. : Like, I've heard times that, 13 you know, a judge may call, like, this person 14 needs a legal call. And when that happens or 15 whatever, like, all right, we got to get these 16 people a legal call. And so, that does happen, 17 but I've never known him to do that on his own 18 accord. 19 MR. : Okay. Our understanding is, 20 based on the investigation, I think Epstein 21 stated that he wanted to call his mother. So, 22 you think that would have been on the - that 23 should have been on the -? 24 MR. : That should have been on the 25 recorded line. 30 1 MR. : That should have been. Okay. 2 And it should not have been on the legal line? 3 MR. No. 4 MR. : And do you recall if S stayed with him for a little bit? Did he listen 6 to the conversation? Did anybody listen to the 7 conversation? 8 MR. : I don't think so. Well, 9 that's -. 10 MR. 11 that - so 12 MR. 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 there for a 16 MR. 17 was 18 majority of 19 portion? 20 MR. 21 busy at the 22 MR. 23 MR. 24 whole time. 25 MR. : Well, it says in here ust read the Yeah. : -- yeah. Because I know while. : Do you know how long there? Was he there for the the conversation, or just a was up : Oh, maybe a portion, but I was time, so I couldn't -- : Sure. -- wasn't looking at him the : Because we have other 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 iiiii iithat were in there, that stated that basically gave him a call, and left. YR. : Okay. MR. : And then, later, called back and said, hey, his phone call is up, go get the phone from him. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Does that sound right? MR. : That sounds about right or whatever. I don't think I took that call. But I do remember when -- MR. : Yeah. I don't think you did, either. MR. : -- yeah, but I know when everything was all said and done, then dealing with the other inmates, you know, I can't remember who took the phone out. I do remember helping somebody bring Epstein back to his cell, and put him in the cell, because I think I was the one that put him in the cell. MR. : You put him back into his cell? MR. MR. : In his cell. : Okay. You know, from the shower, you brought Epstein back from G-tier 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 over to L-tier. MR. : To his cell. MR. : Or into his cell. Okay. MR. : So, when you went to get Epstein out of the cell, was the phone still in there with him? MR. : I don't remember. MR. : Okay. And do you know how long after he started the phone call, you brought him back to the cell? MR. With everything going on -- MR. : Just read it. MR. : I mean -. MR. : I think it says it in there. So, you could keep on reading, and then, it'll robably get to that. MR. : "After all the guards dealt with inmate , Epstein needed to be placed back in the cell. recalls no other guard getting up to move Epstein, so he made the move at approximately 9:30 p.m." MR. Mm-hmm. MR. recalls guard IIII filing out the 30-minute round paperwork, while he did some of the administrative computer EFTA00115856 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 stuff. informed that -." MR. : Before we get onto that, though -- MR. • Yeah. MR. -- does that sound right? 9:30 p.m.? Was that when -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : -- so, he basically was put in there - what does it sound like? - around 8:00 and then, about -- : Mm-hmm. -- 9:30, you moved him MR. MR. back? MR. : Yeah. Because I, like, he had to stay in there a little longer than probably we wanted, because so much stuff was going on that day. MR. : Right. MR. Do you -. Go ahead. MR. : So, being that he was in there for probably an hour, maybe an hour and a half, the majority of that time wasn't spent on the phone. Correct? MR. : No. MR. : Can you estimate, like, 35 coming up to SHU to work overtime, who doesn't work up there all the time, they don't know that the inmate pulled a fast one, and moved the thing that says legal down to social, and vice versa. MR. : Oh, well, the information we have is actually, it was an intentional legal line. So, not that, like, an orderly actually misplaced it, but it was intentionally 34 1 around -? 2 MR. : Because if his hone calls 3 ended after 15-minutes, if i ii did call 4 back or whatever, and that phone call - that 5 phone is supposed to die, it's supposed to go 6 off anywa after a certain timeframe. 7 MR. : Even on a legal line? 8 MR. Not on a legal line. 9 MR. : Right. So, the 10 information we have is, it was actually a legal 11 line call. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And that's what we're a 14 little confused about, why he was given a 15 personal call on a legal line. But do you know 16 anything about that? 17 MR. : I know up there in that SHU, 18 that if - and it's very difficult, especially 19 when you're short-staffed - you know, you have 20 orderlies that walk around and, you know, try 21 to help keep the place clean. If you're short 22 staffed, and you can't be everywhere, and you 23 have an orderly cleaning the tier, they will 24 take those little things, and flip the, you 25 know? Like, so, if you have somebody that's 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : No, no, no. Not the orderly putting the line in or whatever. What I'm saying is the stickers on the jacks on the wall. MR. : Yeah, no, our information is that actually was instructed, or provided, was provided approval to give a legal call. MR. Oh, okay. MR. : And do a legal line. But the instructions were also, that we understand, that was supposed to monitor the entire call. MR. MR. : And that's where we're 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 trying to get, like, all right, well, how long was that call, and how long did he monitor? Do you know? MR. : Gotcha. MR. : And do you know that? MR. : That, I don't know. Because I MR. So, if it lasted 15 minutes, do you think he was there for, like, five minutes? The fact that he had to go back somewhere, and then call, and say, hey, his call is u et that -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- phone from him. Do you remember -? lust because you put in there that he did stay for the call. Can you -- MR. : Yes, I'm -- MR. : -- in your recollection at all, can you think about, about how long he was even there? MR. : Probably somewhere between five to ten minutes, but, like -- MR. : Okay. MR. I mean, like, all that time passed now, and I was running around, and -- EFTA00115857 37 1 MR. : Sure. But just, you know 2 he wasn't there for the whole entire thing? 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : Okay. Sure. S MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. :,AcHust to clarify, you 7 don't recall if gave instructions to 8 you or if you overheard him give instructions 9 to S or about -- 10 MR. No. 11 MR. -- monitoring the call? 12 MR. No. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Like, because usually, on a 15 social call, you don't really have to monitor, 16 because you could just go on the computer, and 17 listen to the phone call. You know, on legal 18 calls, you know, they have attorney/client 19 privilege, so you can't listen anyway. So, any 20 time I know it may be a legal call going on, 21 and I know I can't listen in, it's because they 22 - well, this is now - but they put inmates in a 23 little visit room for their legal calls, so 24 they could do the teleconference because of 25 COVID. 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. But I can't even - you know - I can't sit there and listen to him make his : Sure. So, I, you know -? : So, either way, you didn't think you had to listen, because if it was a legal line, you can't listen; if it was social line it was supposed to be recorded? MR. : Right. MR. : All right. And then, do you -? MR. knew, you know -- MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. MR. -- what to do. MR. : Absolutely. But do you remember, did he instruct you to monitor the call after he left? MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. And if we had more time, if I No. : No. No. : Okay. Okay. : Any other questions on that? 39 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Because I'm goin to jump 3 off. Okay. recalls guard IIII filling 4 out the 30-minute round paperwork while he did S some administrative computer stuff." 6 MR. Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Do you know if she pre-filled 8 the 30-minute round paperwork? 9 MR. I do not. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Is this the paperwork? 12 What's this? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. That's the 30-minute round 15 sheet. Yeah. 16 MR. : So, it's on August 9th, 17 2019? 18 MR. : Is that for the SHU? 19 MR. Mm-hmm. Nope. This is L- 20 tier. 21 MR. : This would be during evening 22 watch? 23 MR. : This is morning watch. 24 MR. : R1-hmm. 25 MR. : Day watch. Evening watch. 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 MR. : Okay. And you were working during evenin watch, right? MR. : From 2:00 to 10:00. MR. : So, who was doing the round sheets? MR. : So, this is IIII right here. MR. : Who's on the other one? MR. This one? MR. : Yeah. MR. I have no idea whose signature this is. This is day shift. Yeah. I don't know whose si nature this is right here. MR. : Is it -. MR. Actual MR. : Like, MR. : It a y mig t 'e. eah. That looks like an 'll" Yeah. MR. : You're not sure, but maybe though? MR. Yeah. Maybe. MR. : Because it stops, it looks like, at about 2:00 p.m., and wasn't done by, like, around 2:00 p.m.? MR. : That's exactly right, because that's when I came in. So, I relieved EFTA00115858 41 42 1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that day. So he stopped right here. MR. : And is that why they stopped there because he left? MR. : He -- MR. : So, it looks like they weren't -- MR. MR. of the -- MR. -- right, because the -- MR. • -- time. MR. -- date, when I relieved him, I guess he must have been the one controlling this paper. So, I relieved him. And the crew here didn't continue it. I just came in. So, I probably didn't know at the time or whatever. But I think we probably did say later, like, what the hell is this? MR. : Okay. So, it's probably . And then, as you noticed, the other -. Do you know why the other round counts wouldn't be filled - the round -? MR. : These? MR. : Yeah. : -- yeah, so, I guess the : -- filled in for the rest 1 MR. llieah. 2 MR. : Why they wouldn't be 3 filled in? 4 MR. : For the day watch. The end S of day watch, and that would be from -- 6 MR. : From 2:00 to 4:00. 7 MR. : -- 2:00 p.m. -. Yeah. 8 MR. : Or 2:30, in this case. From 9 2:30 to 4:00. I'm going to assume that they 10 were forgetting because, like, from what I'm 11 looking at here - and this is just an 12 assumption - from what I'm looking at here, 13 from the time got into work, he was 14 the one filling out this paper. Nobody else 15 probably thou ht about it. 16 MR. : Okay. So, when you 17 mentioned that was filling out the 30- 18 minute round sheets, you're talking about over 19 here? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. So, she was 22 filling out the -- 23 MR. : Yeah -- 24 MR. • -- the day watch. 25 MR. -- because she wasn't here 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yet. MR. MR. : All right. She wasn't at work yet. MR. : Gotcha. So, what -. So, we have information, the investigation has informed us that she actually pre-populated the round sheets that she filled out. Do you know anything about her? When you say that she filled out these things, did she fill them all out in front of you? Did you see that? MR. : Huh-uh. I didn't see her do that. MR. : You didn't see her pre- populate it? Okay. Go ahead. MR. : " informed that, before he left -." MR. : I'm sorry. Sorry. I should follow up. What did you see her do? Since you said that you saw her filling out the round sheets. MR. Yeah. So -- MR. : What did you see? MR. : -- yeah, I just saw the round sheet sitting there, and she was doing it. So, I'm assuming that she's just doing it for, 43 44 1 okay, cool, we just did that round. And I'm on 2 the computer doin the other admin work. 3 MR. : Okay. So, you just -- 4 MR. Because -. MR. • -- saw her doing 6 something, but you weren't really watching over 7 her? 8 MR. : Yeah. Because the thing is, 9 because remember when you asked me about the 10 SHU one position, and I'm SHU three? This is 11 the tricky part. may be on paper as 12 SHU one, but he's on overtime. I worked up 13 there every day. I'm the only one who has 14 access to do the stuff on the computer. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : So -. 17 MR. : And what type of stuff 18 were you g2in2 on the computer? 19 MR. IIIII: So, the computer, you do S83s. 20 You do the - there's another SHU log-in there - 21 you do the -. 22 MR. : When you say 583, that's 23 an incident report, right? 24 MR. : Yeah. The incident reports. 2S You do the daily, like, inmates took showers, EFTA00115859 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 and then, the OIC thing has to have a signature, but because nobody else has the access to it, that portion will fall on me because the paperwork still has to get done anyway. MR. : Right. So, you were the one on your shift that had access to the actual computer s stems -- MR. : Right. MR. -- and the databases. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : Okay. MR. Yeah, because they don't. So, I'm, like MR. : Sure. MR. -- handle this paperwork. The physical paperwork. I'll take care of the computerized. MR. MR. informed that, before he left, he conducted a round and spoke to Epstein, and asked, 'Are you good?', to which Epstein gave a thumbs up response." MR. : Yes. MR. : When you say conducted a : Okay. 46 1 round, did you conduct a round through all the 2 tiers, or just around up to Epstein, just to 3 check on him? 4 MR. : I specifically went to S Epstein. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. IIIII! I specifically went to that 8 dude. 9 MR. : And you checked on him? 10 MR. And I checked. I looked at 11 him. Yo, you good? He gave me a thumbs up or 12 whatever. All 13 MR. : So, what do you mean? 14 Yeah. So, that, I think what his clarification 15 is, you did a round on Epstein. You didn't do 16 a round throughout the SHU. Correct? 17 MR. IIIII: No. Not throughout the SHU. 18 I have specificall checked on him. 19 MR. : Oh, gotcha. Okay. 20 MR. • " said that, before he 21 left, he went back to guards IIII and 22 and -", oh, this -. "IIIII said that, before 23 he left he went back to guards IIII and 24 , and 'Make sure you watch him.' 25 Referring to Epstein, "He's your priority." 47 1 The wording on this is wrong. Do you recall 2 stating that to and IIII? "Make sure 3 you watch him"? 4 MR. Yes, I did. 5 MR. : "He's your priority."? 6 MR. Yeah, I did. 7 MR. : Why would you state something 8 like that? 9 MR. I just didn't like the way he 10 was looking. I can't determine what this man 11 was thinking, but -. And he normally, you 12 know, saying, you ask him a question, if it's a 13 yes or a no question, he would normally just 14 give you a thumbs up or whatever, and stuff, 15 like, pretty much just not want to be bothered 16 with you, for the most part. 17 MR. : Well, it was -. Wasn't 18 it not true that he was kind of the priority 19 for the whole SHU? Was this sign up in the SHU, 20 saying that, "Mandatory rounds must be 21 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, as per 22 God." 23 MR. : Yeah. That was in the SHU. 24 MR. : So, do you remember 2S seeing that? 48 1 MR. : I do remember seeing that. 2 Where it was actually posted or whatever, I 3 don't know. 4 MR. • I think it was on one of S the computers. 6 MR. : Yeah. I do remember seeing 7 that. Yeah. 8 MR. • So, I'm assuming that's 9 also part of the reason why you checked on 10 Epstein. Correct? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. • Because he was the SHU 13 priority? 14 MR. Yeah. 15 MR. • Yeah. And then, you were 16 just reinforcing two of the people when you 17 left, "Make sure you got him"? 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And then, I looked at the guy, 21 and then, you, you know, he just had a look on 22 his face. I'm, like, and then, that -. And 23 I'm, like eah. I stopped. 24 MR. : So, you actually thought 25 something might be up? EFTA00115860 49 1 MR. : Yeah. Because I'm looking at 2 him, he gave me the thumbs up or whatever. 3 I'm, like, he just looked different. I can't 4 explain it. But he just looked different. You S know, he didn't look like himself. He's an 6 entitled -- 7 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 8 MR. -- you know, rich guy or 9 whatever. You know? Just very nonchalantly or 10 whatever, I'm, like, you don't usually do it 11 that way. 12 MR. : Okay. So, you -- 13 MR. But that's my personal 14 opinion. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. That's not a fact. 17 MR. : Did you mention that at 18 all to -? 19 MR. : I didn't tell them that part. 20 I just said, "Watch this guy." 21 MR. : All right. So, you 22 didn't sa wh to watch him -- 23 MR. : Hmm-mm. 24 MR. : -- you just said, "Make 25 sure you watch him"? 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 so MR. : Yeah. I didn't give them no details. 1 'i. .. id, "Watch this guy." MR. : Did you have a feeling that he might hurt himself or anything like that? MR. : I didn't know, but I just felt that it was the best thing to just keep an eye on this dude. MR. MR. MR. senses went MR. MR. : Okay. Mm-hmm. : Something - your spidey and said - something -- : Mm-hmm. • -- something is amiss here, or make sure you're watching him. MR. Yeah. MR. : And your positive you told them that? MR. Yeah. MR. : Okay. And to both of them? Or you just said it both at the same time, or individually? MR. : I said it both at the same time. MR. : All right. 51 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : And that would have been 3 right around 10:00 p.m. 4 MR. : Yeah. Right before I left, I S was, like, reah, keep an eye on that dude. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. And right out the door. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Did they respond to you? Did 10 they say SE 11 MR. IIIII: I don't even remember if they 12 did. I know they heard me because I was 13 standing right in front of them, but I don't 14 even remember if they responded or not. 15 MR. : And then, when he gave you a 16 thumbs up, did he say anything else to you? 17 MR. : Hmm-mm. 18 MR. There was no verbal 19 conversation? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : He very rarely talked unless 23 he wanted something. Yeah. 24 MR. : Okay. And just because I'm 25 showing you these documents, can you initial 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 and date the top of them? It's not to test what's on the documents, it's more to -- MR. MR. MR. To show you that -- : -- for our records, that -. • -- I saw it. MR. : You saw it. These are documents we showed you. MR. And you want me to sign and date? MR. : Initial and date. Today is 8/5/2021. MR. : And you said it was 8/S -? MR. : '21. The same thing for the other ones too. Excuse me. This one, too? MR. IIIIII: Yes, please. This, we'll keep, just in case we go back and refer to it. So, I'm going to read that line back, and finish off the paragraph. " said that, before he left, he went back to guards IIII and and, 'Make sure you watch him," referring -." MR. : And stated. MR. : Yeah. MR. : Make sure you have that word. EFTA00115861 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 MR. : "And stated," just make sure I put that, "And stated, 'Make sure you watch him,' referring to Epstein, 'He's your priority.'" MR. MR. seemed normal MR. Right? MR. an o MR. MR. MR. it's Mm-hmm. stated that Epstein and he was just sitting there." : And that's correct. : Mm-hmm. Yeah because, like, inion of mine. I can't tell you -- : Sure. - what I'm thinking. : Absolutely. We just want to make sure that the report is accurate. MR. " explained the 30- minute rounds, and when asked about the paperwork, stated that the exact times are probably off because they are estimates." What do you mean "Estimates"? MR. IIIII: Because, at that point in time, it wLgglythree of us in there. You know, so, IIIIIIII is working overtime. So, he's doing multiple things. He's doing his regular job, and SHU stuff at the same time. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 So, and then, you got dudes over here acting like they want to commit suicide. So now, as you're doing rounds, and everything is going on, you talk to one inmate, now this inmate has a problem. You may forget sometimes to go up there and just write it, you know, write it in or whatever. So, sometimes they might be, like, shit, fuck, I forgot. And then, they'll go back or whatever. I'm not saying, but that's just, you know, normal or whatever, like, oh, man, I forgot. And you just go write in it. That's just normal, how they do it. That's why I hate these papers. I rather just do it on the computer because you can't miss. : You have questions on that? : But there's still some MR. MR. more, right? MR. : Yeah. "When told that there is a video of the SHU area, stated that he would be surprised to see video of the rounds not being conducted." MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : When asked about -. MR. : Because they were on their feet all day. 55 1 MR. : So, you're saying that they 2 went in and they did the rounds? 3 MR. : Yeah. I've seen it. Because 4 as I'm doing my paperwork and talking to 5 inmates and stuff like that, they were moving 6 the whole time. I, you know, like, if I 7 remember correctly, I barely saw them sit down. 8 MR. : So, you saw them moving. Did 9 you actually see them do the rounds, or you 10 just saw them move? 11 MR. : I saw them 12 tiers or whatever, because iiiiiiiin and out of -. I know 13 had a blue bin, at one point in time, 14 he was going from tier to tier, doing 15 something. And I think IIII had the key. You 16 know, but it was a lot of movement that day. 17 So, I guess that's the best way to put it. 18 MR. : So, you saw movement, but you 19 don't -. You didn't actually see 20 (Indiscernible *00:34:18)? 21 MR. : They had to go down the range, 22 but I didn't, like -. Every single time, at 23 every 30-minute mark -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. . I don't know. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 MR. ..kay. MR. : Just finish the thing, and then -- MR. IIIIIIillieah. MR. : -- you can ask the additionaiiiiiitions. MR. : "When asked about the round sheets and the sign-off procedures, could not clearly remember who did what rounds exactly, or what, if any, rounds he did. Only that -- MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : -- he would not have signed off on the rounds had they not been conducted." MR. That's true. MR. : And based on the round sheets, you're saying that you saw IIII? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Is that signature on - MR. That's IIII. MR. -- on the evening watch? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : Is that for all the tiers? (Indiscernible *00:34:50). EFTA00115862 57 58 1 MR. This is -- 2 MR. : That's for L-tier, right? 3 MR. -- this is for L-tier. Each 4 sheet is for a different tier. And this is 3- S tier. So, 3-tier didn't get finished. K-tier 6 didn't get finished. 7 MR. : What do you mean, they didn't 8 get finished? 9 MR. : There's blank spots. 10 MR. For what time? 11 MR. 11:00 and 12:00. 12 MR. : What were they doing? 13 MR. 11:00 - excuse me - 11:00 and 14 through 11:30 15 MR. : What's your take -- 16 MR. So -. 17 MR. -- on why they would be 18 empty? 19 MR. : Maybe they didn't -. Maybe 20 they didn't do it. I don't know. I don't know 21 why it would be empty. I'm thinking too much 22 now because I'm, like, if this was finished, 23 why wasn't -? 24 MR. : What is it? You hesitated. 25 MR. Yeah. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. 'I'll! Like, I don't know. Because MR. : Explain that. if you were doing the round here, how did you - ? Unless something happened at that time, at night, but I wasn't at work at that time. Because this is after -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- this is after 10:00. MR. : After 10:00. MR. So, I wasn't here for this. MR. : So, you're saying there's about three tiers where it wasn't finished off, right? The K-tier. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : That's 3-tier. MR. That's 3. MR. : And -. MR. 3-tier. K-tier. H. MR. : H-tier. MR. And G. MR. : They weren't finished off? MR. Hmm-mm. MR. : Okay. Do you know where? Where were these round sheets kept in the SHU? MR. : There's been so many changes 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 in here. MR. : On August 9th and 10th -- MR. Yeah. MR. -- do you recall where these forms were? MR. I believe this was by the desk. MR. : On the officer's desk? MR. I believe so. MR. : Where are the forms supposed to be kept? MR. When initially I was trained, they were on the desk. As time went on, they said they wanted them on the tiers. So, a definitive answer on that, the instruction on that has changed so much, like, you know, one - MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- one day, they was, like, keep them on the ranges, another day you come in or whatever, leave it right here so you can't miss it so you don't lose any papers. MR. : Why do they keep it on the ranges? MR. : So, on the ranges, when you do 60 1 do a round or whatever, you go and do a whole 2 round, when you get to the end of the range, 3 the paper is right there on the clipboard. So, 4 you could sign it, and finish the round, and 5 come out. 6 MR. 7 actually -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. •• -- doing their rounds. Okay. 10 And how many people are needed to conduct 11 rounds? 12 MR. : Only one person is needed to 13 conduct a round. 14 MR. : Not two people? 15 MR. No. Two people are needed for 16 a count. 17 MR. : And -. 18 MR. : Because, you know, like, in 19 the -. Unless it's one -. 20 MR. : Was that per policy, or 21 is that p!E_Rfactice? 22 MR. IIIII: Per practice. When you do a 23 round, it's one person that opens the grill, 24 and one person goes down. Is that what you 25 mean? Because, you know, a count, one person : lust to ensure that they're EFTA00115863 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 goes down, comes out, and then, the next person goes down and comes out. But for a round, only one person. MR. : So, we were informed by per policy, at least, counts and rounds are conducted exactly the same way. The only thing difference is that, in a count, you count inmates. Is that not correct? MR. : Not the way I was taught, but that's per - I'm going to be honest - that's per practice. MR. : And is that even to date, that's what they do? MR. since -- MR. MR. they're dging_mpLliere. MR. IIIIIIIIII: Oh, you haven't been in SHU since this date? MR. : I've been in there after that date, but I haven't been in the SHU in months. MR. : Okay. So, when you were, after that date, though, they never went over, like, how to conduct a round? And so, yeah, : I haven't been in the SHU : Okay. -- so, I don't know what 62 1 everything that we're saying is that a round 2 and a count is exactly the same. Two people 3 are needed. The only difference is, during a 4 count, you count. S MR. : Hmm. No. I don't -- 6 MR. : You've never heard of 7 that? 8 MR. : I don't remember - after 9 that incident - I don't remember having that 10 discussion with 11 MR. : So, your understanding is 12 only one erson -- 13 MR. : That's my -- 14 MR. • -- per count -- 15 MR. -- that's my understanding. 16 MR. : per round. Okay. 17 MR. : Okay. Any other questions on 18 the rounds? 19 MR. : Yeah. So, as far as, do 20 you know if these rounds that were on this 21 round sheet, were they all conducted as it's 22 filled out? 23 MR. : That, I don't know, because -- 24 MR. : You're not sure? 25 MR. -- I'm not sure. 63 1 MR. : So, what is your 2 understanding, if the one person is only 3 filling out the count, is she filling it out on 4 behalf of - so, in this case, it was IIII - is 5 she filling it out on behalf of everybody in 6 the SHU, or is she only saying that she 7 conducted the round? 8 MR. : I'm going to assume that she 9 was filling it out for everybody that was 10 Like, so, if she did a round, and 11 did a round, she just filled it out, 12 in that case. I learned my lesson from that, 13 so I onlyiiiiiiiiiien I did it. 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. For 15 that point forward, correct? 16 MR. : Hell no. I knew that, learned 17 that before it. 18 MR. : All right. 19 MR. : So, you only would fill it 20 out. So, you're not, obviously, on here. But 21 is she filling it out for both you and 22 as well? 23 MR. : I'm going to assume, maybe. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : But I don't know what her 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 thought process is with this. MR. : So, how it mentioned there that, you know, the video would be reviewed. That video has been reviewed, in detail. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Do you believe that all these rounds were conducted on that date? MR. : I believe the vast majority of them should have been. Now, were all of them? Because I know for a fact, me personally, I wasn't the one to do every -- MR. MR. : So, you -- • -- single round. MR. • -- so, you weren't the one conducting the round, but you can't say if the other eo le were? MR. : I can't -- MR. : You can only -. MR. -- I can't say that. MR. : All right. Do you believe all those rounds were conducted? MR. : I believe, I definitely believe this - what is this? L and M, and I'm just confused as to the rest. EFTA00115864 65 66 1 2 3 4 S 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Because again -- MR. But -- MR. -- we have -. Like, our investigation has showed that that was all pre- filled out. MR. : So, yeah. And that -. Wait a minute. MR. : And I don't know why she would pre-fill out some of them, but not the rest. MR. : I see. I see why. Yeah. MR. Explain. MR. : Yeah. Because of the times. 01:02, 33:34. 03 to 04. And then, then you flip the page, it's the same thing. It's just a minute difference. I see why. MR. : So, now that you're looking at it, do you believe that those are accurate? : This stuff. It's pre-filled. : It's pre-filled? These MR. MR. are pre-filled? MR. : That - and yeah - it's a good possibiliix_Ib2ILI_pre-filled. MR. IIIIIIIIII: And what do you know 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about -. MR. : I can't say that that's for sure what she did. MR. MR. MR. MR. : But by reviewing it -- : I could see where -- -- from your knowledge -. -- I could see where that assumption would come from. MR. : But from your knowledge and experience, by looking at the way that that's filled out, you would say that that's pre-filled? MR. : Yes. Uh-huh. It's a possibiliiiiIIIIIII MR. : And have you ever pre- filled out round sheets? MR. MR. MR. MR. fill out pre-fill MR. MR. though? No. : Do people -- Not to my knowledge. • -- do people in general round sheets, and they fill them out, them? : I'm sure they don't now. : But did they at the time, 67 1 MR. : At the time, usually, I 2 stopped messing with this after my first 3 incident, and dealing with this round sheet. 4 So, if I do a round, I fill it out. If I 5 wasn't the one that did it, I don't sign it. 6 MR. : Yeah, yeah. So, what I'm 7 talking about, from August, basically 10th, 8 from the time he was found, previous to that, 9 would you re-populate round sheets? 10 MR. : No, I didn't pre-populate. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Because I learned something 13 before that time, to -- 14 MR. : Oh, what did you learn 15 before? 16 MR. : Because that was a problem, 17 with people doing that before, and nobody 18 wanting to sign round sheets, for what reason 19 or whatever. So, I was, like, okay, if I did 20 it, sign it; if I didn't do it, not sign it. 21 That's how I learned my lesson. That's why my 22 name is not on this. 23 MR. : Okay. So, your name 24 wasn't specifically on that round sheet because 25 you're, like, I'm not signing it, and getting 68 1 jammed up for it? 2 MR. : If I'm not getting jammed up, 3 if I did it, I sign it; if I didn't do it, and 4 you did it, because I won't sign for anybody 5 else. 6 MR. : I gotcha. So, she was 7 signing for everybody else, but you wouldn't 8 sign for ever ody else. 9 MR. : Yeah. I didn't even -. I 10 didn't toiiiiiiiiiiaper at all that night. 11 MR. : Okay. But previous to 12 that, woullnu have touched the papers? 13 MR. IIIII: Previous to that, I probably 14 would have done rounds. But I wouldn't have 15 pre-populated the whole thing, like that. 16 MR. : Would you ever pre- 17 populate 22y_part of it? 18 MR. IIIII: No. I don't think I pre- 19 populate. I don't remember a time that I did 20 pre-populate a thing or whatever. Now, what I 21 will say, because I know it's common or 22 whatever, in the beginning, I probably had 23 something pre-prepped for the count, and that 24 messed up or whatever. 25 MR. : So, you would pre-prep EFTA00115865 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 the count. Not a round. MR. : I pre-prepped the count slip or whateviiiiiiiiii-prepped it. MR. : Okay. So, you pre- prepped the count slips, but not the round sheets. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. So, I learned MR. MR. MR. MR. : I didn't do this. : Okay. No. : Fair enough. And that's a lesson learned. lesson -- : Sure. -- from that. : Fair enough. Okay. : Okay. And when you said you pre-prepped the count, are you talking about the night of August 9th? MR. 4:00 p.m. MR. : The 4:00 p.m. count. That was pre-prfpol? MR. IIIII: Mm-hmm. I pre-prepped it because of my -. There was so much going on, everybody's leaving, some people coming in, and stuff like that. I'm, like, okay, count time 70 1 or whatever you -. I wrote it out. I don't 2 remember if I put a number in there or not yet, 3 or whatever. And then, the count was supposed 4 to take place. So, I pre-wrote it or whatever. S And then, we just kept working. But there was 6 a lot goidSn ot iat day. So. 7 MR. : Perfect. So, going to 8 that para ra h, and then -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. -- you can clarify it. 11 MR. Yeah. So -. 12 MR. : "When asked about the count 13 number in the SHU, for the -." 14 MR. : Finish the paragraph, 15 too. Don't -. 16 MR. : Yeah. "When asked about the 17 count number in the SHU, for the date, and the 18 number matching the MCC master number, 19 stated, 'This would be a mistake on my part.' 20 He probably just used the numbers off the 21 master sheet, and that there was probably 22 signing off, down in response to pressure, and 23 having the count cleared." 24 MR. So, was this what you're 25 referring to? 71 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : All right. So, you're 3 saying that -. 4 MR. : Because you will get pressured S to hurry up and finish the count, even though 6 the job to work in the SHU, the crew is 7 supposed to be four. Very rarely, you're going 8 to have four. You're asked to do the job with 9 four people, with sometimes three, and 10 sometimes two. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : So, you're going to -. Your 13 phone is ringing, you're getting pressured, 14 you're getting supervisors coming at you. So, 15 if you don't have a way, you're going to find a 16 way. 17 MR. : But that's what the 18 master sheet that you refer to? 19 MR. The El. 20 MR. : Oh, did you have access 21 to the El? 22 MR. : I don't think I had access to 23 the El at that time. 24 MR. : So, how -- 2S MR. Yeah. 72 1 MR. : -- if you say that would 2 have been during this interview, then -- 3 MR. : Like, because I don't think I 4 had access to the El at that time. I think I 5 had -. It's another roster that we have in the 6 SHU. Like, not a running board. What is the 7 damn thing? I ain't been in there in a while. 8 SHU located. We have a SHU locater. And in 9 that or whatever, when people move, you change 10 it on that paper or whatever. Like, now - if 11 you've been up there - there's a board up there 12 now. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : You know? So, when you - on 15 that locater or whatever, that's probably what 16 I used because I don't believe I had access to 17 this at that time. 18 MR. All right. So, you 19 probably -- 20 MR. : Because I wasn't working 21 control at that time. 22 MR. : -- so, at the time, you 23 used the SHU locator, and the amount of inmates 24 that were listed on the SHU locater, to fill 25 out the 4:00 p.m. count sheet? EFTA00115866 73 1 MR. : Yeah. Because, like, when 2 you're up there or whatever, like, the day 3 shift, they got to keep that SHU locater right 4 for the most part. You know what I'm saying? S You can't reall screw that up. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, I was, like, okay. Boom. 8 And I - but like I said - I don't remember 9 writing a number in there or whatever, but if I 10 did, I did. That's my mistake. I own that. 11 MR. : But you do remember that 12 you pre-po ulated it, though? 13 MR. : I do remember that. 14 MR. : Because it's -. 15 MR. : Like, I know I wrote my name, 16 and then I wrote the date, and stuff like that, 17 or whatever. 18 MR. : Let's take a look. I'm 19 showing you the El. 20 21 MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : And the count sheets for -. 22 Is this for the 4:00 p.m. count on August 9th? 23 MR. Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Can you - this is the El on 25 the front, right? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 MR. : Yeah. So, this is the 4:00 p.m. count, because this is printed out on 15:41. MR. : Take a look at the back, for your CV, at the count slip that you - for that. Keep goiniiiiiiiiiithere? MR. : Just highlight it, so that we can -. All right. So, ZA. That's the SHU. Correct? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And it shows 7S? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And then, done at 4:00 p.m. Who is listed on here? MR. Mir and IIII. MR. : All right. So, that's yourself, correct? And then, you say you're the one who filled that out right? MR. : Yeah. MR. : Is that your handwriting? MR. Yeah. It looks like mine. MR. : All right. Cool. MR. : The date? MR. : Yeah, but I didn't -. But I didn't put the -. I don't recall putting the 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 number in here. I know I put the date and the time, and then I signed down here. MR. : Does that number look like it v MR. It looks like it -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- but I don't recall doing it. MR. : Okay. MR. I do not recall doing that. MR. : Do you know if you conducted the count at 4:00 p.m.? MR. : No. MR. : So, does that mean you did not conduct the 4:00 p.m. count? MR. : I did not. Because, like, I was -. That's why I'm at the bottom. I was, like, I filled it out or whatever. All right. We going to do this. We going to do that. And I was running, too. I was ripping and running or not. iiiiiiiiiithat they did. So. MR. : All right. But you didn't conduct the 4:00 p.m. count? MR. : No. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 MR. : You thought that they did, thou h? MR. : I thought that they did. MR. : Do you know if they did? MR. : I think they did that, but I don't know for sure right now. No. MR. : You're not sure? MR. It's been too long. MR. : You didn't. MR. Yeah. MR. : You signed it. MR. I didn't. MR. But you don't know if -. All right. So, now you can go into those questions. MR. : So. MR. : How many people are needed to do the count? MR. At least two. MR. : At least two? MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : And you said that you don't know if the did, but since you -- MR. : Yeah. I was -- MR. : -- signed it, it -- EFTA00115867 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 MR. : -- it was an assumption. So, that was m fault. So, I take that. MR. : Okay. So, technically, it should have been you and whoever else -- MR. Mm-hmm. MR. -- signed off on it, should have done -- MR. Mm-hmm. MR. -- but you don't recall doing the count? MR. MR. said he did MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. Hmm-mm. : No, not to recall. not do the recall. : Yeah. : Yeah. : He just said -- That he did not. -- he doesn't know if the He other two did. MR. : Okay. Now, do you know if that number was accurate? MR. : If - I'm going to find out now. I'm sor . MR. : Yeah. No problem. MR. : So, that number was accurate 78 1 there. So, if the base count was 76, that's 2 because E stein was at his legal visit. 3 MR. : Okay. I'm going to -. Let's 4 start off with the 4:00 p.m. count. S MR. : (Indiscernible 6 *00:48:03). This stuff. That's all. All 7 there. 8 MR. : Okay. I'm oin to show ou 9 a memo. It's an email from 10 to IIII , and it's regarding to a shot. 11 Right before inmate, hmm, Leonardo Fernandez, 12 do you recall Fernandez - inmate Fernandez - 13 being in the SHU that day? 14 MR. I don't even know who that is. 15 MR. : He was an inmate in the SHU. 16 And if you can read the -. 17 MR. : You can just it for him. 18 You don't have to ask. 19 MR. : Yeah. Well, yeah. This is 20 filled out by . It's in regards to 21 Leonardo Fernandez. The incident date is 22 8/9/2019. It's at 1:40 p.m. 23 MR. Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : "On August 9th, 2019, at 25 approximately 1:40 p.m., I, SOS , while 79 1 assigned as a Special Housing Unit officer, I 2 proceeded to enter the Nine South visiting 3 room. As I walked towards the door, I observed 4 through the visiting room door, inmate 5 Fernandez, register number 86824-054, attempt 6 to grab an unknown item from his visitor. Once 7 inmate Fernandez reached to grab the item, I 8 called the door, and called for a lieutenant. 9 Once I was able to enter the visiting room, I 10 gave inmate Fernandez a direct order to walk 11 the visiting room, walk off the visiting room, 12 to conduct a visual search. Inmate Fernandez 13 complied, and a visual search was conducted. 14 The operations lieutenant was contacted, and 15 inmate Fernandez was removed from the unit." 16 MR. III" Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Now, this is the lieutenant 18 logs for that day. This is for August 9th. 19 This is da watch. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : The lieutenant log states, 22 "Inmate Fernandez, 86824054, on dry cell with 23 staff watch in R80." If you look down here, 24 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed on dry 25 cell. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 80 MR. Mm-hmm. And wait, the time for this one was -? MR. : That just states the daily sensitive information. So, this is -- MR. 'I'll' Okay. MR. : -- this is at 3:15 p.m. So, I'm going to show you the midnight sheet count. MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : From August 10th. This is August 10th. Inmate Fernandez is - again - it states there. If you notice, 12:35 a.m., it was corrected. Inmate Fernandez was removed from the SHU at 3:15 p.m., and was never keyed out of the SHU. MR. : Show him the quarterly assignment roster. : Yeah. : That's all in order. MR. MR. Here it is. MR. : So, whaiiiiiiened was when the midnight lieutenant, came on -- MR. a Mm-hmm. MR. : -- she realized there was a - EFTA00115868 81 82 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. MR. A discrepancy. -- a discrepancy. : Mm-hmm. MR. : So, she went in, she checked it, and she corrected it at 12:35. If you paid, if you look at the inmate history, of the quarters for Fernandez, he was assigned to the SHU -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- from August 2nd, at -- MR. 14:33. MR. -- 14:33. And he was keyed out on -- MR. On the 10th. MR. -- August 10th. At 12:35 a.m. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Now, if you -. Well, if he was out of the SHU. Now, the day started off with 77 inmates. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And let's remember, don't MR. : So, that should have been 74. MR. : -- don't look at this. 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : Yeah. : Look at this. Okay. So, it should have been 74. : So, now, you understand that it was 74 inmates. MR. Yes. MR. : Is that count accurate for 4:00 p.m.? MR. MR. conducted? MR. No. MR. MR. No. MR. you -. Did MR. MR. So, was the count No? : Sorry, ou say -? No. I didn't hear what : No. All right. So, do you know now that the count was not conducted? MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. Great. MR. : Can you - same thing as before - can you initial these documents to say that these are the ones we showed you. 1 MR. 2 Seventh? : What's today's date again? 83 3 MR. : 8/S. 4 MR. 8/5. 5 MR. So, like you said, you 6 just took the number off the master list and 7 filled that in? 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So. 10 MR. Yeah. 11 MR. : And when you say master 12 list, I mean actually, you called it something 13 different. 14 MR. : The locator. 15 MR. : The inmate locator. 16 Okay. 17 MR. This one, too. 18 MR. : So, does that refresh 19 your memor now, though -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- that they didn't 22 provide you a number, you just filled that in 23 off of that? 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Yes? 84 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Good. Thank you. 3 MR. : This is the memo. Could you 4 just initial and date this for me? Do you have 5 anything else on that? 6 MR. No. 7 MR. : On that count. Sorry. This 8 is the 5:00 p.m. count. Just initial the -. 9 Initial and date the 5:00 p.m. count here. 10 MR. • 4:00 p.m. 11 MR. : I mean 4:00 p.m. I keep 12 reading the bottom. 13 MR. : It's all good. 14 MR. : Move on? 15 MR. : Yup. 16 MR. : All right. " was asked 17 several questions abouiliiiiiin, and 18 specifically if guard advised about 19 Epstein needing a cell mate, to which 20 responded 'No.'" Do you -? 21 22 MR. Read that again. MR. • " was asked several 23 questions about Epstein, and specifically, if 24 guard advised about Epstein needing a 25 cell mate, to which responded, 'No.'" EFTA00115869 85 1 MR. : Yeah. I didn't get that. 2 Okay. I thought you said I said that Epstein 3 didn't need -- 4 MR. No. 5 MR. -- an inmate. Yeah. I'm, : 6 like, nah, that -. I didn't have a -. I don't 7 remember having a conversation with 8 about him telling me that Epstein needed a cell 9 mate or an thing like that. No. 10 MR. : What -? 11 MR. : But he was supposed to have a 12 cell mate. 13 MR. : He was supposed to have a 14 cell mate? 15 MR. : He had a cell mate. 16 MR. : So, why was he supposed to 17 have a cell mate? 18 MR. : Well, no, I'm saying he had a 19 cell mate. It was the little, short dude. 20 That was his cell mate. I think his cell mate 21 got released that day. 22 MR. : How do you know the cell mate 23 got released that day? 24 MR. : Oh, just word of mouth, 25 because, like, I'm trying to remember what 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 happened because, like, because I remember, when I put him in the cell, I was, like, where the hell iiiiiiiiiicking cell mate at? MR. : So, you actually -. When you put E stein back from the shower, you mean? MR. : Yeah. MR. : You asked him where his - MR. : I asked where, you know, where is your cellee? Or whatever. So, he said, like, he got released. So, I don't -. Like, I don't know if he actually did get released or not, or whatever, but that was the question, like, but we don't have anybody else to put him with. I don't remember who I spoke to that night or whatever. But I asked that question, like, there's no cell mate in there with this guy. MR. : So, you asked someone? MR. : I asked someone, but who it was, I don't remember who it was. MR. : Would it have been a lieutenant? MR. : It would have been a lieutenant. But my question -. But, like, 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with that, he's supposed to have. But you can't put him with anybody. : No, but you know -- , some -. • -- you notified a MR. MR. MR. 87 lieutenant? MR. : Yeah. So, somebody has to tell me who they want me to put in there with him. Because if you tell me to put somebody in there, aniiiiiiiiiison beats him up. MR. : All right. So, if you put him in at, you said, 9:30. Correct? Was that when_ 122 Lre talking about? MR. IIIII: Yeah. When I - yeah - after the shower. After he had his little phone call and I put him back or whatever. Yeah, I asked, like, does anybody want me to put him in there with -. MR. : So, you're acting like you're talking on the phone. So, did you get on the phone with someone? MR. : Yeah. I got on the phone with someone, and I, like, who it was at that time, I don't remember. MR. : So, this, can you check the 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 88 schedule -- MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : -- schedule, to - on the roster. MR. This is all -- MR. : And I'm talking about what time -- MR. • (Indiscernible *00:55:12). MR. • -- it would be, because I mean, I think there's a shift change -- MR. : Yeah. There's a shift change MR. • -- back then, at 10:00 -- MR. -- and then -- MR. : -- 10:00 p.m. is when there's that shift change. MR. : The lieutenant shift changes. I don't even know what time it was. (Indiscernible *00:55:21) MR. • They show it was two hours prior to -- MR. Indiscernible *00:55:23). MR. : -- to what the schedule said back then. So, the Ops Lieutenant would have been relieved at 10:00 p.m., and a new Ops EFTA00115870 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 Lieutenant would have come back. So, if that rings a bell. MR. : Yeah. MR. : I think it would have been either -- MR. Because I know -- MR. • -- it would have -. MR. -- well, I know this. I know it wasn't -- MR. : Here. MR. -- I know I didn't speak to Lieutenant MR. All right. So, this is MR. : You know you didn't speak to -. So, this would -- MR. MR. So, replaced have been either - I'm assuming - it would have been either or . Now, what -- -- no, this is -. -- this was the 10th. . So, it would MR. So, it had to -- MR. • -- what I'm showing you right now is the daily assignment roster for Saturda , Au ust 10th, where it says that was the morning watch -- 90 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. -- officer who would have 3 come in the ni ht before, at 10:00 p.m., and 4 relieved 5 MR. : Over here, actually, it 6 states, there's two possible lieutenants, 7 right? There's -- 8 MR. 9 MR. was the acting -- 10 MR. -- who was that, until 10:00 11 p.m.? 12 MR. 13 p.m. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. And then, there was 16 MR. 17 MR. That was there from -- 18 MR. Until midnight. 19 MR. -- yeah, until midnight. So, 20 this conversation, when you went to Epstein's 21 cell, around what time do you think? You - 22 based on that memo - you took him out around 23 9:30. 24 MR. : Put him in -- 25 MR. : Put him in. -- Activities until 10:00 91 1 MR. : -- at 9:30. 2 MR. : Put him. You took him out of 3 the -- 4 MR. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 5 MR. • -- the showers. 6 MR. The showers. 7 MR. : And then, brought him over to 8 the cell. 9 MR. Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : So, let's say 9:30 onwards, 11 who wouldiiiiiiiiiii(Indiscernible *00:56:29)? 12 MR. : Well, no, no, no. Let's 13 clarify that, though. Is it before the shower, 14 when he was brought back to the SHU, or was it 15 after the shower that you noticed that there 16 wasn't a -- 17 MR. : After the shower. 18 MR. : -- so, it was definitely 19 after the shower, and after the phone call? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. And that's when 22 you (Indiscernible *00:56:43) -. 23 MR. : And that's - and it's locking 24 time, so now, at that time, once you put him 25 back, there is no more movement. 92 1 MR. : Okay. So, you 2 specificall recall -- 3 MR. Asking. 4 MR. -- and that you asked 5 someone? 6 MR. : I asked someone. 7 MR. : And do you recall that it 8 was a lieutenant? 9 MR. : Yeah. It had to be. Because 10 I called the lieutenant's office. 11 MR. : You called. So, you know 12 that you called the lieutenant's office and 13 said -- 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, this -- 15 MR. : -- he doesn't have a cell 16 mate? 17 MR. : -- there's no cell mate here. 18 What do you want me to do? Or whatever. What 19 actually happened after that, I don't even 20 remember because I never even gave it a second 21 thought, after the fact. 22 MR. : All right. So, after you 23 called, though, do you remember how that person 24 responded? 25 MR. : Nah. I never even thought EFTA00115871 1 2 3 4 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 about it again. I never thought about it again until now. Now, I'm trying to rack my brain to remember. MR. : Do you remember if it was a man or a woman? MR. : I believe it was a man. But I MR. r. I believe it was a man, but MR. : You believe it was a man. I don't remember. I really don't. MR. : Okay. Because if it was a man, it would have had to been MR. : It would have been MR. : Right? MR. Yeah. It would have been MR. : And you know it wasn't -- MR. : Bec MR. : MR. -- but Ilirr!!!!ro, that when - if I'm working internally, and then, like, I have to speak to a lieutenant, sometimes the lieutenant is busy. I may pick up the phone and I'm not a lieutenant. MR. : Okay. So, it doesn't 94 1 necessarily have to be a lieutenant in the 2 lieutenant's office. 3 MR. : Not all the time, because 4 things happen. Sometimes the lieutenant may S call you, hey, I need you to go to this unit, 6 do X, Y, and Z. Now they're on the phone or 7 whatever. Grab that phone for me real quick. 8 It happens, but you know, you just relay the 9 messages and what have you. 10 MR. : Okay. All right. 11 MR. : And you said that could be 12 the internal? 13 MR. It could be. Is it? I don't 14 know. But I'm just saying, I know that I asked 15 that question. Who I did ask that question to, 16 I don't know at this time. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. I don't remember. 19 MR. : So, just walk us through 20 what questions you asked and what response were 21 you given. 22 MR. : Yeah. I know I said, hey, 23 this dude ain't got no cellee. I did say that. 24 This dude ain't got no cellee or whatever. And 25 after that, what actual response I got, I don't 1 2 3 4 S 8 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 know, because I was so busy that day, that I'm just, like -- MR. : This would have been -- MR. I got enough. MR. : -- this would have been at the vely_Lid of your shift? MR. IIIII: This would have been at the very end of m shift. MR. : So, would it have been before you went up and checked on him, at that MR. : That would have been -- MR. : -- next round? MR. : -- yeah, that would have been MR. Or after? MR. r that would have been : before, and then, I checked on him again, before I left. So, like, when I noticed it, put him in, and I noticed that, made the phone call. Then, before I leave, I check on him again, and tell -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- hey, watch this guy. MR. : Okay. Did you - after 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 96 you made the phone call, or when, first of all, the phone call, do you remember the response that you were given? When you said -- MR. IIIIIiiiiidon't know. MR. : -- why doesn't this guy have a cellee? Did you -? MR. IIIIIiiiiidon't remember. MR. : Did they say that they would look into it, that they would check on it? MR. : Probably, but I really don't remember because I'm, like, after you get frustrated, all right, I got this to do, I got that to do and then, you just -. MR. : Okay. Did you notify and that he doesn't have a cell mate? MR. MR. : They knew he didn't have a cell mate? MR. there -- MR. They know? MR. E yeah. MR. : And did they know that he : Well, they knew, but -- -- yeah, because they were up EFTA00115872 97 98 1 was required to have a cell mate? 2 MR. : Required. I don't know if 3 they knew that he was required to have a cell 4 mate. ThAti_I_LTIt know. MR. IIIIIIIIII: But everybody that comes 6 off -. He was in suicide watch, previously. 7 Correct? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : And every inmate that 10 comes off of suicide watch -- 11 MR. Suicide watch. Should have a 12 cell mate. 13 MR. 14 knew he was required to have a cell mate. 15 Correct? 16 MR. Yeah, based off of that, they 17 would know. 18 MR. : Okay. And was that a 19 discussion that you had with anyone in there, 20 that day, about, hey, where is his cell mate? 21 MR. : I think we did ask that 22 question amongst ourselves, too, like, this 23 dude is supposed to have a cell mate. I think 24 we did. 25 MR. : Is this before or after? : So, based upon that, they 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 After -- MR. Shower? MR. : -- yeah, after the shower. That this conversation between you, MR. : This was after the shower. MR. -- took place. MR. Well, after the shower is when you called, but what you're saying is that, at - or are you saying that, after the shower, after the phone call -- MR. : Right. MR. : -- so, not after the shower, but after the phone call in the shower, is that when you had the conversation with IIII and MR. : Yeah. MR. So, you think at that point -- MR. : Because that's when I, like, oh, shit, the dude ain't got no cell mate. MR. : And you would have -- MR. : Sorry. Excuse my language. MR. : -- and you would have conversed, saying, like, hey, he doesn't have a cell mate right now? 99 1 MR. : Yeah. So, that's definitely 2 the discussion that -. That would have 3 happened after I took him out of the shower and 4 put him in his cell, and realized there was no 5 cell mate in there. That would have been the 6 discussion afterwards. 7 MR. : And ou do remember 8 talking with both and IIII, saying he 9 doesn't have a cell mate? 10 MR. : Yup. Briefly, though. There 11 wasn't, like. a long, drawn-out -. 12 MR. : Sure. Do you remember 13 what their responses were? 14 MR. : I think it was just something, 15 like, yeah, we're just telling each other 16 what's goin on. And continue business. 17 MR. : Was there anything talked 18 about, like where is he? 19 MR. IIIII: Yeah, and that's when we found 20 out, like, this guy must be released or 21 whatever. So, there was a conversation about 22 that. But who actually said, oh, this dude got 23 released, or whatever, I don't remember. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. Everything was moving so fast. 100 1 And it waiiiiiiiillago now. 2 MR. : Was there any 3 conversation about, like, hey, we need to 4 notify somebody to get him a cell mate? 5 MR. : Probably was, but I know I 6 made a phone call to someone, like, hey, what 7 do you want me to do with this guy? He ain't 8 got no cellee. I know I made a phone call to 9 someone. Who it was, at this point, I don't 10 remember. 11 MR. : And that -. 12 MR. I wish they would have asked 13 me that question earlier because I probably 14 would have remembered then. 15 MR. : Right. So, and that's, 16 like, under oath, this is, like, if you were on 17 the stand, literally in front of a judge -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- you swear under oath 20 that you made a phone call and notified 21 someone? 22 MR. : I notified someone. Who it 23 was, I don't know. 24 MR. : Okay. So, if we checked 25 the, like, the lines and the recordings, we'll EFTA00115873 101 1 be able to find -- 2 MR. : You should be able to find 3 that, yes. 4 MR. : -- okay. And then, S again, that would be, like, a penalty and 6 perjury of law, like, you know -- 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : -- you could get - you 9 can literally get charged if you're lying to us 10 because we're federal agents and you're under 11 oath. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : So, you're positive about 14 that statement, that you called someone and 15 notified them around 9:30 at night? 16 MR. : I believe so. But if -. 17 Because I spoke to people about this. I know I 18 spoke to eo le about this. 19 MR. : So, yeah. Just remember, 20 any -. We're just going to shut up for a 21 second, and let you think about who did you 22 speak with and what conversations were had. 23 What was stated? 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : From the beginning of 102 1 that day. So, here, I'm going to show you a 2 document, and this is - again - that 3 lieutenant's log, saying that, at 8:38 a.m., 4 Reyes was pre-removed. And do you know that, S when you're pre-removed, that means you're 6 released from the MCC. Correct? 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Do you know that? 9 MR. : That, well, yeah. It's a 10 So, could I see that? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. So. 13 MR. : And here is the 38 to go 14 along with that, and the daily log. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Which shows that he was 17 pre-removed at 8:38. 18 MR. : A.m. 19 MR. : A.m. 20 MR. Okay. 21 MR. : So, he left. He left the 22 SHU, I'm assuming, before then. That's when he 23 was keyed out. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : By R&D. Correct? 103 1 MR. Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : And then, is there -. 3 Did we -? No, we didn't print out any of those 4 other documents. So, he was gone from the MCC S by 8:00, at least 8:30 a.m. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, you started at 2:00 8 p.m. What conversations can you remember that 9 you had, regarding Reyes being gone from the 10 institution? 11 MR. : I don't. I remember finding 12 out that Reyes was gone when I put Epstein back 13 in his cell. That's when I remember that he 14 was gone. 15 MR. So, you -. 16 MR. IIIII!ii!imean, that's when I realized : 17 that he was gone because I'm, like, there's 18 supposed to be two people in here 19 MR. : So, prior to that time, 20 you didn't know, at all, that Reyes was gone? 21 MR. : Yeah, because I'm thinking 22 about it to m self. as we walk -. 23 MR. : Sorry. He's giving me 24 documents to show you what happened to him. 2S So, this is from the Marshal Service. I don't 104 1 believe that you would have received this 2 email, but I'm just showing you. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : You can say if you S remember it. This is -. Did you ever see one 6 of these? This is a prisoner's schedule. 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : The Marshal Service. So, 9 the Reyes right here, it shows that he was 10 gone, transferred within - per the judge - from 11 the MCC to GO. Do you know what GEO is? 12 MR. : I've heard that term before, 13 but -. 14 MR. : So, GEO is a -- 15 MR. : Contract. 16 MR. : -- contract -- 17 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 18 *01:04:23 19 MR. : -- which was going around 20 here. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : This would have been sent 23 to all these people in custody, from R&D, as 24 well as to all the lieutenants. : 25 N.R. Okay. EFTA00115874 105 1 MR. : So, based upon this, they 2 would have generated what's called, I think, a 3 call out list. Do you know that? 4 MR. : I know what a call out list S is. Yes. 6 MR. : And then, we're of the 7 understanding, based upon this information, 8 next to Reyes name would have been WAR. Do you 9 know what that means? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : What does that mean? 12 MR. : Like, I mean, offhand, I don't 13 know what the actual acronym means, but it does 14 mean that somebody is getting removed from the 15 building, whether they're being released, sent 16 to another institution, what have you. 17 MR. : All right. So, that 18 would have -. It means, "With All Belongings." 19 And it means that they take all their stuff 20 because the 're leaving. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Do you remember, that 23 date, seeing that call out list? Would that be 24 maintained in the SHU for the (Indiscernible 25 *01:05:06)? 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 MR. : I don't remember seeing that call out list. I do not. MR. : And in general, would the call out list be maintained in the SHU, though? MR. : No. The call out list is basically before R&D leaves for the night. They print out the call out sheets for the next day, and over the course of the morning shift, internal, when they give out the daily rosters, will give out the call out sheets to every unit. MR. MR. : Mm-hmm. : For the following day. For the next 'rig, MR. : And then, is that call out list, though, like, for instance, the call out list of the SHU, was that maintained in the SHU at all, when they (Indiscernible *01:05:3422___ MR. IIIII: Yeah. Once you have it in the SHU or whatever, usually, they'll have it on the desk with the rest of the paperwork. So, you know what you're looking at. If you've got to get soiiiiiiiiiidy. MR. : Okay. So -- 107 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- so, is that something 3 that they kee in the SHU all day long? 4 MR. IIIII: Yeah. Once you receive it. 5 All for the morning shift, because usually, 6 morning shift, depending on your internal, you 7 might get that paperwork probably about 3:00 or 8 something. You know, after you - as you're 9 conducting counts. So, you conduct counts, and 10 they come through and they hand you your roster 11 for the day. The call out sheets, the separate 12 rosters. 13 MR. : And is that maintained, 14 though -- 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. -- throughout the day? 17 So, that, like -- 18 MR. : It's supposed to be. 19 MR. : -- for instance -. Okay. 20 So, if somebody goes to court, you know, on 21 that list, it says this guy is court, it says 22 this guy is WAB, it says, you know, so that you 23 know where inmates are? 24 MR. : Well, R&D will have the -. It 25 will be a court roster for R&D. And it's 108 1 another -. 2 MR. • Wouldn't that all be 3 listed on the call -- 4 MR. : Yeah. MR. • -- list, though? 6 MR. It would. Yeah, it would. 7 MR. : So, point being is if, 8 like, if you're doing counts at 4:00 p.m., you 9 have that call list to be able to say, oh, 10 shit, this guy is at court, he's not back yet. 11 I need to find out where he is. Is that what 12 happens? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what's 14 supposed Ig]mal Yes. 15 MR. So, the questions that 16 all of that was, do you remember seeing that 17 call out list on August 9, 2019? 18 MR. : I don't remember seeing it. 19 MR. • No? 20 MR. No. 21 MR. : But would it have been 22 there? 23 MR. : It should have been there, but 24 I don't remember seeing it. 25 MR. • Okay. EFTA00115875 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 109 MR. : Everybody waves differently. So, I may put my paperwork on the clipboard. Somebody else may like to have three stacks of paper over here. MR. : Okay. But what you're saying is that you did know, on August 9th, that Reyes was gone, and he was Epstein's cell mate, and Epstein was without a cell mate. But you're saying you didn't know it until 9:30 p.m.? MR. : Yeah. MR. : And at that point, you did call someone, in the lieutenant's office? MR. : Yeah. MR. : So, you definitely know it was the lieutenant's office -- MR. : I know. MR. -- that you called? MR. : I called someone. So, like, let me rephrase and put it like this. That I noticed it. I had discussions with, you know, (Indiscernible *01:07:29), I said something about it to them, and I called someone. Who I spoke to, I do not remember. But I know I called someone. And it had to be somebody 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 higher than me. Because I can't make that decision. MR. Sure. And you think it was a man? You don't think it was MR. : I think it was - MR. Or -? MR. • -- I'm pretty sure it was a male. I think it was a man. But being that it was so long ago, I can't remember exactly what I said on a brief phone call -- • Sure. -- you know -- : I understand. Yeah. I Yeah -- -- I'm just being honest with MR. MR. MR. mean, we're MR. you. MR. I got you. MR. : You know? MR. : And so -. MR. : And honestly, I thought this was over. So I was, like -- MR. : Right. Yeah. No. This is where -. That's why we're back, coming back to people to try to, like -. Part of the • -- we're two years later. 111 1 reason why we're reading this to you is to, 2 one) make sure that you -- 3 MR. : That it's accurate. 4 MR. : -- it's accurate, but 5 also to refresh your memory. This is what you 6 stated to these people, is that accurate, and - 7 again - to fill in some of these blanks. Now, 8 we have a memo that was drafted on August 12th, 9 2019. Let's see if it was - it says United 10 States government, Federal Bureau of Prisons 11 memo. And it says, past information from 12 Special Housing Unit. It says, "On Friday, 13 August 9th, 2019, at approximately 1:50 p.m., 14 I, SOS , assed on to oncoming staff 15 member, Officer and present staff, SOS 16 and Officer , that inmate Reyes 17 was going WAB, and possibly may return, also 18 that inmate Epstein will be needing a cell mate 19 upon arrival from his attorney visit." Do you 20 know if -? 21 MR. : I don't remember having that 22 conversation with 23 MR. : Do you remember that that 24 conversation had, or do you believe that he's 25 lying to us? If he swore under oath that he 112 1 definitel assed that information onto you -- 2 MR. : You got a -- 3 MR. : -- and he's got this 4 memo. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : That he also did. Do you 7 believe he's lying about it? 8 MR. : If he did, you might want to 9 ask about that one because I do not 10 recall him s eakin to me about this one. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : I don't necessarily want to 13 call anyone a liar, per se, but I don't 14 remember him spealiimso me about this. So, 15 maybe he spoke to and maybe I was 16 standing there and he thought I heard him. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : But that's my assumption, but 19 I do not remember having this conversation with 20 him at all. 21 MR. : All right. So, if he's 22 saying, you know, was standing ther2s_i_ 23 relayed the information specifically to IIIII, 24 saying, hey, what you call, it's WAB, Epstein 25 is going to need a new cell mate. You do not EFTA00115876 113 1 recall that conversation? 2 MR. : I don't recall that 3 conversation. 4 MR. : Now, what is your opinion S of the fact that, if an inmate is WAB, that 6 means that he's not coming home -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- right? What is your 9 opinion of the fact that he said, possibly may 10 not return? Why would he say - if someone is 11 WAB - why would he say possibly may not return? 12 MR. : I don't know. 13 MR. : Because your 14 understandin was, if someone was WAB -- 15 MR. : If it was WAB -- 16 MR. -- you're not -. 17 MR. -- he's supposed to be gone. 18 MR. : He was gone. Correct? 19 MR. But - okay, so, with that -- 20 MR. : So, if -. 21 MR. -- if he says possibly may 22 return or whatever, because this has happened, 23 usually, I've seen it before with other 24 inmates. You see somebody that says if they're 25 WAB, they're supposed to leave this date, their 11s 1 Epstein is in the cell, because I'm assuming 2 with how it happened, I'm assuming he goes WAB, 3 Epstein goes to a legal visit, now your day is 4 going on and everything like that. And it's S just esca ed ever body. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : That's what I'm thinking 8 happened. But yeah, he should have been 9 replaced durin that shift. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : But if you don't have the 12 numbers, that's another question, that I'll 13 ask. If you don't have the numbers in the SHU, 14 if you have, like, an odd number, and you can't 15 put anybody with him. What are you going to 16 do? 17 MR. : Or are you aware that 18 Epstein's cell mates were all vetted at the 19 highest level? 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : So, in your opinion, if 22 you knew that Epstein was required to have a 23 cell mate, could have you just placed a cell 24 mate with him? 25 MR. : No. I don't have that 114 1 stuff is packed up or whatever, and then, 2 something happens, and then, they can't go -. 3 They can't leave. Like, but that's usually if 4 they're going to another institution or S something. Now, if this dude actually got 6 released or whatever, I don't see why - any 7 reason. Unless the judge put a hold on him. 8 MR. : Well, he didn't get 9 released. Like I showed you. He got 10 transferred. 11 MR. : Yeah. So, yeah. So, I don't 12 see, you know, like, unless the judge 13 miraculously put a hold on you or something 14 like thatj_j_42nLI_know why he said possibly. 15 MR. So, I guess my question 16 on that would be, then, if he's at least by 17 8:38 a.m., WAB, gone from the SHU, should 18 someone have -- 19 MR. Yes. 20 MR. -- replaced him 21 beforehand? 22 MR. : Yes. Replaced him and, yeah, 23 somebody should have -. Like, because during 24 the day shift or whatever, this dude leaves, he 25 goes to WAB or whatever, and you know that it's 116 1 authority to do that. Because if I was to -- 2 MR. 3 authority? 4 MR. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 • So, who has the : -- if I was to make that decision, and something happened to him, now I'm screwed. MR. : So, who should have placed him with a cell mate? That's place Epstein with a new cell mate. MR. : It would have been one of us to probably put the inmate in that cell. But that determination would either come from the operations lieutenant, the SHU lieutenant, or the captain. MR. : Okay. MR. anybody above that. MR. : Sure. MR. : But that's where the decision would come from. They'll probably just tell me, like, he Iiiiiiiiiiute. MR. : So, in your opinion, based upon the information that we have, with him going WAB, should the activities, ops, or a captain have been notified, and those people should have ensured that Epstein was -? EFTA00115877 117 1 MR. : Yes. Because if - like, all 2 right, after all the stuff that we've seen here 3 - if I was to, like, let's just say I was to 4 put somebody in that cell, and something S happened. Now I made the wrong decision, and 6 then, the next question is going to be, well, 7 why didn't ou ask questions? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : So, I would not put somebody 10 in there without somebody giving me the green 11 light to do so. 12 MR. : Now, if - was 13 the OIC back then? 14 MR. : I think so. 15 MR. : All right. So -- 16 MR. For the day shift. 17 MR. : -- so, is the 18 OIC. If him, the activities lieutenant, and 19 the ops lieutenant, all for that day shift are 20 saying, well, we didn't know if Reyes was going 21 to come back or not, so we thought it was 22 premature to place a new cell mate in there 23 with him. Is that a legit excuse, do you 24 think, or a reason, if the person is listed 25 with WAB next to their name? 118 1 MR. : Depending on how they looking 2 at it, like, because - like I said before - if 3 he's WAB and, like, maybe the bus got cancelled 4 or whatever, and then, somebody would have to S come back. If you're thinking about it that 6 way, then yes. But if he was gone at 8:00 7 something in the morning, then he ain't never 8 coming back. 9 MR. : At 2:00 p.m., he's still 10 not back, wouldn't they know by then if that 11 was -- 12 MR. That's what I -- 13 MR. -- truly WAB? 14 MR. • -- that's what I would think. 15 MR. : Okay. But you do not 16 recall him s ecifically saying that to you? 17 MR. : Hmm-mm. 18 MR. : So, you believe, the 19 first time that you - you did know, on August 20 9th - but you believe the first time that you 21 knew was at 9:30 p.m. 22 MR. : That's the first time I think 23 I knew, because it was too much running around. 24 I don't not remember this conversation at all. 25 MR. : Okay. And that's 119 1 because, once you got there, you were just 2 running? 3 MR. : I was running, hopping and 4 popping the whole time. S MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Pretty much. I'm sweating. 7 Everythin . 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : But we were all tired that 10 day. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : I know you didn't know until 13 9:30 p.m. When do you think would have been 14 the first time you should have caught up to the 15 fact thatjt12s was not there? 16 MR. IIIII: I was doing rounds, because in 17 my mind, because I'm thinking about it, like, 18 like how Epstein is the priority. So, if I'm 19 working out ranges, and I'm talking to inmates 20 here and there, and I had two other inmates on 21 that tier where Epstein was, that wanted to 22 play the suicide game, you know, as I walked 23 through there, or whatever, I know this is 24 Epstein's cell. I know Epstein is not here. 2S Even when you look in there, you just keep 120 1 going. And then, you know, you just keep going 2 or whatever. So, like, it should have dawned 3 on me then, but I'm thinking about this guy 4 over here, that may have, you know, that had S the noose around him, and he wants to play that 6 game. And then, you got another inmate on 7 another tier, doing some other crazy nonsense. 8 There was just a lot of moving pieces that day. 9 So, even in my movement around or whatever, 10 like, it missed - it escaped it - it missed me. 11 MR. : Yeah. And that was what 12 I was going to go to, after that, is the fact 13 that, would this have been the only - this 14 mandatory rounds must be conducted every 30 15 minutes on Epstein, as per God - would that 16 have been the only orange card that was up 17 there? Saying to make sure that Epstein is your 18 priority in the SHU right now? 19 MR. : It shouldn't have been. Like, 20 I don't remember if there was anything on his 21 door, or anything like that, or whatever. But 22 I remember that. That, you know, that was per 23 God, obviousl that's a joke. 24 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25 MR. : But I do remember, it was EFTA00115878 121 1 something else on a wall, at some point in 2 time, about, like, yeah, make sure you watch 3 this guy. So, I don't remember if it was a 4 memo or something, but it was something else. S But I definitely remember that one. If I'm not 6 mistaken, there was more than one copy of that 7 thing. 8 MR. : Okay. So, but what I'm 9 asking, was there anybody, any other inmate 10 names, such as this, or was inmate your 11 priority when you were in the SHU? 12 MR. : No. No. I don't remember any 13 of the inmates' name. I just remember that. 14 MR. : So, this is the one guy 15 that's up on the desk, on the officer's 16 station, saying, making sure you're checking on 17 him -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- on Epstein. So, that 20 was what I was going to get at. If these 21 rounds were actually conducted on L-tier, 22 through that whole time, that that cell is 23 empty -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- how did people not 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 notice Epstein's cell mate is gone? MR. : Right. And now, this right here MR. : And I'm not talking about just your watch. So, night watch -- : Yeah. -- as well as day watch. Yeah. So, day watch, oh, no, this is morning watch. So, okay. : Yeah. This is day watch. MR. . Yeah. So, day watch. Like, obviously, through here, they got rid of him. And, like, that, there should have been something done there. MR. : Yeah. I mean, he's the guy who was apparently, you know, is apparently signing this, I believe, for all these. He's claiming, yeah, I passed on the information, he's gone, he's going to need a new cell mate, if he, in fact, doesn't come back. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : So, all right, he's swearing under oath that, and he wrote a memo, as well. And he swore a couple times to that. 123 1 As far as -- 2 MR. : Okay. So, now I got to write 3 a memo, ri ht? 4 MR. IIIIIIIIII: -- so, well, that's what S - you don't have to write a memo, we're talking 6 to you. So, as far as this goes, the question 7 would be: how are anybody that's working - so, 8 it's you -- 9 MR. 10 Mr MR. : -- did start 11 then? 12 MR. : I think comes in at 13 4:00. 14 MR. 15 -- 16 MR. 17 MR. 18 MR. 19 *01:17:22 20 MR. 21 you, 22 MR. 23 MR. 24 25 conducted - how was it not noticed, even prior : So, it's at -. Okay. So He's already here. : -- you four -- He's on (Indiscernible -- it said four. It's , and Mm-hmm. : How was it not noticed if these rounds on this round sheet were 124 1 to 9:30, if you're saying you noticed at 9:30, 2 that that cell was empty? If this guy is your 3 number ortpljority. 4 MR. IIIII: Because I was looking for 5 Epstein. Yeah, I was just, like, my mind, and 6 on that s ecific cell, it was him. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. And I knew he was at a legal 9 visit. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah. So, and I 11 get it, that you said you did a round on 12 Epstein when he came back. But if rounds are 13 being conducted in entire SHU -- 14 MR. IIIIIillii-hmm. 15 MR. : -- wouldn't people 16 notice, hey, it's claiming that one, two, 17 three, four, you know, however many there are 18 there, throughout the day, you're going down 19 everything, how did someone not notice that 20 cell was jelpsy? 21 MR. IIIII: Hmm. And you're absolutely 22 right. Now -. 23 MR. : So, the point being is, 24 does that mean that these rounds weren't 25 conducted? EFTA00115879 125 1 MR. : I'm not going to say that 2 because I know those people went down, down 3 range, you know, but what I'm going to say is, 4 like, if that dude was gone, and you know, the 5 number one priority is Epstein, and you're just 6 doing rounds because you know that you're going 7 to have to count anyway. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 9 MR. : You know what I'm saying? So, 10 when you go through on the count, that's when 11 you will catch that. 12 MR. : So, yeah. In this case, 13 the 4:00 14 MR. Exactly. 15 MR. : -- count wasn't 16 conducted? 17 MR. Exactly. 18 MR. : So, the 4:00 p.m. count 19 wasn't conducted. And then -- 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : -- you have reason to 22 believe the 10:00 p.m. count wasn't conducted, 23 either. Nor the 12:00 p.m. Nor the 3:00 a.m. 24 And not the S:00 a.m. So, none of those counts 25 were conducted. 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 MR. : I wasn't here for those. MR. : That's a - yeah, I know, you left before 10:00 p.m. - so, that's when you would believe it would have been caught, is during the counts, not the rounds? MR. : I believe it would have been caught more so during the counts, and with the rounds, you can catch it, but with a million things goin on, it's a little bit harder. MR. : I gotcha. MR. You know, -- MR. : So, the counts, the more official thing, where there's two inmates where you're actually counting inmates. So, the fact that the 4:00 p.m. count wasn't conducted, that's why you believe you didn't actually catch it until 9:30? MR. MR. MR. catch it. MR. catch it at 9:30 -- MR. Yeah. I did catch it. MR. -- and you do believe you : Yeah. : Okay. That's why I believe I didn't : All right. But you did 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 notified someone? MR. MR. told both MR. MR. : Yes. And are you confident of both those things? Can you state iiiii iiinalty and perjury of law, I told and , he did not have a cell mate? MR. : Yes. MR. : What about, are you confident under penalty and perjury of law, I called the lieutenant's office and notified them that_fpirein did not have a cell mate? MR. IIIII: I'm confident that I called, but who was on the other end of that phone -- MR. : Right. MR. -- is my issue. MR. : Right. And what I'm saying is, are you confident you called the lieutenant's office, though? MR. : No, I can't say I'm confident I called the lieutenant, but I want to say yes, because that's normally what I would do. MR. : Right. So, who - if you : Yes. : And do believe you and IIII? Yeah. Yes. 127 128 1 didn't call the lieutenant's office - who would 2 it be thktily would have called? 3 MR. IIIII: It might have been a unit 4 manager, or somebody. If anybody was still in 5 the building at the time. But I called 6 somebody. I spoke to someone, higher than me, 7 that could make a decision about this 8 situation. 9 MR. : All right. So, that was 10 going to be my next question. Are you sure, 11 not only did you call, but you actually spoke 12 with someone? 13 MR. : Yes. I spoke with someone. 14 Who it yial_atthis point, I don't remember. 15 MR. IIIIIIIIII: Okay. So, someone. You 16 did make that notification, and you're saying 17 someone else (Indiscernible *01:20:44). 18 MR. : I made that notification, yes. 19 MR. : And ou did - and you're 20 positive /2Linformed IIIIIIII and IIII? 21 MR. IIIII: Yeah. Because we were all 22 talking. Like, it was, like, yeah. This dude 23 is (Indiscernible *01:20:54). Like, it was a 24 conversation. A brief conversation, but a 25 conversation nonetheless. EFTA00115880 129 1 MR. : And you had the three of 2 you had it? 3 MR. : Yeah. Like, it was, like, you 4 know, I said something, he said something, she S said something. And then, it's back to 6 business because it doesn't stop just because - 7 . You've got to kind of figure things out, as 8 you move. So -. 9 MR. : Okay. What do you got on 10 that? 11 MR. : When we initially asked you 12 the question about Epstein and his cell mate, 13 you said that Epstein must have a cell mate. 14 Right? To that effect. You knew that Epstein 15 needed a cell mate. 16 MR. : Hmm, and I knew, and when I 17 said that, I mean, I knew that he had one 18 before. I knew he had one before. Because 19 that's why I was, like, oh, like, where did 20 this guy 21 MR. : Other than the fact that he 22 came off psych observation, was there any other 23 reason why you felt that Epstein needed a cell 24 mate? 25 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Personally? MR. don't know. MR. : : Only from what I heard. Have you heard that, if I 131 Tartaglione attacked Epstein, did he try to kill him, or did Epstein try to hang himself? MR. : I heard that Epstein tried to hang himself and that, you know, he blamed Tartaglione. MR. : Okay. Now, you said from that point onwards, instructions started coming down. From who? MR. : The instructions started coming down from the SHU lieutenant. I know Lieutenant would come in. He would -. MR. : So, who is the SHU lieutenant? MR. Now? MR. : No, no. At that point. MR. At that _point in time, I think it was still Lieutenant MR. : Was it ? MR. Was it Lieutenant .? MR. was in there, too. Mm- hmm. - yeah - was. I think . was SHU Lieutenant at that time. In fact, I can 130 1 MR. : Did anyone instruct you? Any 2 instructions come down? 3 MR. : The instructions started 4 coming down about him needing a cell mate after S his first so-called suicide attempt or 6 whatever, and that's when they started picking, 7 and that's when, you know, like, how - well, 8 what's the other guy's name, Tartaglione? And 9 that's why we, as officers, can't determine who 10 we're going to put in there with this guy. You 11 know, like, because if I -. Like, let's say I 12 ought to put somebody else in there with him or 13 whatever, and because Epstein is saying that 14 Tartaglione attacked him, and this, and that, 15 and the third. That would fall on me. You 16 know, you want a supervisor to make that 17 determination. 18 MR. : So, let's talk about -- 19 MR. IIIII: So -. 20 MR. : -- that. Were you there for 21 that incident, when that happened, the first 22 attempt of suicide? 23 MR. I wasn't there for that, no. 24 MR. : Do you know what happened 25 between Epstein and Tartaglione? 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 132 find out ri ht now. MR. : He was not working on -? MR. : He was not working that night, though. MR. : No. He was off that day? MR. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's see. So MR. : So, it came from Lieutenant IIII. You think it came from Lieutenant also? MR. : Yeah. Because I, like, I didn't speak to IIII recently during that timeframe, I don't believe. I think, like, because I think it was, like I know one time ,specifically, Lieutenant IIIII was, like, by - he specifically said - boss's do, not that night, though. But, you know, he specifically, like, that's one of the first people that was, like, was adamant about keep an eye on this guy. This is why we put him in this cell. MR. : Well, what about the cell mate requirement? MR. : The cell mate requirement thing. That was something that it was conversations amongst other SHU crew members EFTA00115881 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 from day, evening, morning shift, or whatever. Like -- MR. : Yeah. MR. -- we knew we couldn't just make a decision. So, that was a thing, like, everybody was, like, yo, call the lieutenants, like, make -- MR. MR. : Mm-hmm. -- like, have them tell you who to put in there with this person. IIIII! MR. : When was this conversation? MR. This is over the course of time. You know, a couple days. Because we, like, people get - people leave this institution, and people come back in. So, usually, you never really know. So, this is, like, you know, days leading, you know, days leading up to this or whatever. We just, like, idle conversations, that, amongst staff, that we have had. MR. : That Epstein needed a cellmate at all times. MR. : Yeah. And then, like, you know, like, because I believe, at one point in time, he had a cell mate, somebody left, and 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 134 then, they -. We had to find a cell mate for him real quick. But like I said, like, this is - it's bits and pieces here. MR. : Which SHU staff do you recall having that conversation with? MR. : Pfft. Usually, those are the little quick conversations you have during shift change. So, this is, like, hi, bye, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. MR. : But you don't recall if it happened? MR. : Yeah. I don't recall it. MR. : I have a question. That memo. So, you said you've relived Do you recall relieving at what time? MR. (Indiscernible *01:24:59 MR. : Hmm. 2:00. Yeah. MR. : At 2:00? MR. : Yeah. 2:00. Maybe a little - MR. : Do you recall if he left the institution? MR. : I don't know. 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 135 MR. : But he was no longer in the SHU, at taLpoint? MR. IIIII: But yeah, after I relieved him, I think he -. I don't know if he went home, or if he went somewhere else. I don't know. MR. : Okay. Does that sound right? MR. : Yeah. So, what you want to say is, this -- MR. Last page. MR. -- so, this -- MR. Last page. MR. : No, no. Not that one. It's the other one. Not this one. I need the other one. MR. : Yeah. The email. MR. The email. MR. : So, this email from to , who was the ops lieutenant at the time, was sent at 6:07 p.m., where he wrote this - you wrote that, the shot, where everyone would call it the -- MR. : So, look at the date on top. At the time. MR. : -- so, it appears that 136 1 was still in the institution at 6:00 2 p.m. We're trying to figure out why. What 3 would he have been doing in there? Would he -? 4 5 MR. IIIIIiiiiidon't know. MR. : No? And he's not listed 6 on that daily roster. Correct? It's signed 7 from 8 9 9th. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : That's the 10th. Look at the MR. After he left. Can you find his name on there? MR. : It's -. MR. : What's the schedule show him leaving at? MR. : 2:00. We saw him leaving at 2:00 because I'm his relief. MR. : And you know he was not in the SHU. Correct? MR. : Right. MR. : Do you guys have access to BOP -? MR. : Let him look first. MR. : Okay. MR. : I don't know. And what was your question again? EFTA00115882 137 1 MR. : Do you have access to BOP 2 email outside of work? 3 MR. No. 4 MR. : The only way to send an email S is from where? 6 MR. : I could send an email to a BOP 7 address. 8 MR. : No, no. From your BOP email 9 to another BOP. Like, let's say he was sending 10 an email to , right? Could he have done 11 it from outside the institution? Or does he 12 have to be inside the MCC to get that? 13 MR. : Like, say it one more time. 14 MR. : So, in order for him to send 15 this email -- 16 MR. : Yes, in order for to 17 send an email to -- 18 MR. : This email. 19 MR. 20 MR. : This email. 21 MR. Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : In order for him to send this 23 email, can he do it outside of the MCC, or does 24 he have to be inside the MCC to send it? 25 MR. : Oh, no. You can send an email 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 to a BOP email outside of the MCC. MR. IIIIIIIIII: But what he's saying is, would he have access to his BOP email outside of the MCC? Would he have been able to send it MR. Oh, would -- MR. -- yeah. MR. -- would has access to -. Oh. Not to my knowledge. I don't know how to do that. MR. : Okay. Yeah, no. And we already know that. MR. : And you didn't see him all day? After he had left. MR. Hmm-mm. MR. : And you relieved him. You didn't see him in the SHU? MR. : No. MR. : He never came back? MR. Hmm-mm. MR. : Okay. So, we have all these documents that we showed you. Just initial them, please. MR. : Okay. Hmm. And this. This one, too, or no? 139 1 MR. : Yes. Anything we showed you. 2 MR. Okay. 3 MR. : Just down there. 4 MR. What is this one? 5 MR. : This is the one -. 6 MR. Okay. 7 MR. : Schedule report. That's the 8 one that shows that inmate Reyes, he had left. 9 MR. Gotcha. 10 MR. : And you'll notice, he was 11 transferred within, and he went from MCC -- 12 MR. : To GEO. 13 MR. -- to GEO. 14 MR. Thank you, sir. 15 MR. : And we probably covered this, 16 but just want to ask one more time. If that 17 4:00 p.m. count was done, would it have been 18 caught that Reyes was not in the institution, 19 and Epstein needed a cell mate? 20 MR. : There would have -. It would 21 have been caught that, you know, that he wasn't 22 in the institution, but, like, when you count, 23 even though you're looking at living, breathing 24 bodies, you know, sometimes you'll be, like, I 25 don't remember everybody's name. Sometimes I'm 140 1 talking to inmates and I'm, like, hey, you. 2 So, I probably wouldn't even notice it was 3 Reyes. You know? 4 MR. : But would you -- S MR. : But if you -. 6 MR. : -- you would have noticed 7 that there was no one in the cell, is what 8 we're sayin 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Now, we asked you about, have 11 you ever re-filled -- 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. -- round sheets -- 14 MR. Mm-hmm. 15 MR. -- or count sheets. You said 16 yes to the count sheets. Right? 17 MR. Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Do you recall ever pre- 19 filling round sheets at all? 20 MR. : I don't recall pre-filling 21 round sheets. I remember being taught about 22 it, at one oint in time. 23 MR. : Taught about it by who? 24 MR. : That was when I was a daisy 25 fresh rookie. EFTA00115883 141 142 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. 'III!! So, I knew that that was MR. : Okay. something that was done. MR. : The pre-filling? MR. Yeah. MR. MR. but I was MR. MR. though. by then. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. : Okay. Do you or seeing anybody else pre-fill count sheets? MR. : Yeah. You hear about it, but : By who? I want to say it was a rookie back then. I was -- : By who? -- (Indiscernible *01:30:15), but that was -. I was a rookie : Who is= He don't work here no more. : Do you recall his first name? No. recall hearing round sheets or MR. : : Like, who? MR. You know what I'm saying, like, I've heard about it from multiple people. Names and dates of when they did it. Like, I 1 don't know. 2 MR. : I don't need - who have you 3 heard about? - I don't need dates or anything, 4 but who have you heard about pre-filling the 5 rounds and counts sheets? 6 MR. : You know, some of the old 7 school staff, like, you know, like, when, like, 8 but these people don't even work here anymore. 9 You know, like, I mean, I don't know these 10 people. They don't work here anymore. They, 11 you know, like, they had a whole SHU crew. 12 Like, there was a whole system of things that - 13 they had it on lock. That was just how it 14 worked. 15 MR. : : So, you said SHU -- 16 MR. So, I remember, as a rookie, I 17 would go in there. And then, you know, they 18 teach you things or whatever, and then, you 19 know, like, I guess they've been working so 20 long, you know, they know the short cuts that 21 they do. So, I remember learning about it then 22 or whatever. And then, I even got taught at 23 one point, or whatever. I'm, like, okay. But 24 I wasn't working up there then. 25 MR. : So, the names. I know you 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 mentioned the SHU crew. So, the names. What are the names? MR. : From all these -. From back then or whatever, it was a whole slew of people. MR. : Which is fine. Any names you recall. Because you said you learned it from people, ri ht? MR. MR. MR. Yeah. And so -. So, like, as me learning, like, well, now, I kno started, was up there. (Phonetic Sp. *01:31:49). was MR. MR. Oh. How do you spell that? MR. He doesn't work here no more. MR. : Okay. MR. : Who else used to work up there? Some dude that used to work here, named used to work up there. It's a bunch of people. MR. : So, you've got -- MR. : Track of all these names. 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 144 MR. and MR. : Yeah. N.R. : Have you seen them pre-fill - have you heard or seen them - pre-fill round sheets or count sheets? MR. : I've heard of it. But, you know, like, I haven't seen them do it, but I've heard of it or whatever. And I do remember who it was, though. I remember, at one point in time, somebody showed me, like, oh, yeah, this is how you -. Teaching me how to do the round sheets. And taught me that way. MR. : What did they teach you exactly? MR. : Like, I start here. So, the time is 4:05. And you start at 4:05, finish at 4:06. The next one, you do at 4:07, 4:08. MR. : So, that's why you, when you saw that -. MR. : That's when I saw that, and I recognized it. MR. : So, you think that's -- MR. That's -. MR. -- that's how it was taught EFTA00115884 145 1 for -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. -- how many round sheets have 4 you done? (Indiscernible *01:32:58) that it was 5 pre-filled? 6 MR. : Pre-filled? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : I don't recall doing any pre- 9 filled round sheets on my career. Because it 10 was a situation -. Well, that's another story, 11 so I'm not even going to get into that. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. Yeah, but -. 14 MR. : You've never, on the round 15 sheets. 16 MR. Hmm-mm. 17 MR. : How many count sheets have 18 you? 19 MR. : Now, the count sheets, on the 20 other hand, if, you know, you're in a hurry, 21 you fill it out -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- you execute it. And then, 24 you put it out. Because you're just, like, you 25 don't want to waste time just doing paperwork. 146 1 But obviously, I learned a valuable lesson from 2 that one. 3 MR. : So, I know on that one, that 4 a count wasn't actually done. Have there been 5 any other situations -- 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 done? 9 MR. No. 10 MR. : Do you know of any employees 11 haven't been doing rounds or counts? 12 MR. : In SHU or just in the prison 13 in general? 14 MR. 15 MR. 16 MR. 17 concentrated -- 18 MR. 19 MR. 20 general. 21 MR. : Nah, and - pfft - 22 especialliiiiiir all of this. 23 MR. : No. Let's talk about - 24 starting at that time, too - were you aware of 25 employees not doing rounds and counts? that : No. -- where the counts haven't : lust in general. Yeah. : The SHU is what we Yeah. -- but if you know in and 147 1 MR. : No. But they were all -. I 2 do recall an incident where, I guess there was 3 a bad count. No. There was two good counts. 4 It was two good counts, and then, they figured 5 out it was a bad count the next shift or 6 whatever. So, basically, what people were 7 doing, they would look in on the computer to 8 see what the number was, fill out the paper, 9 and send it down. I remember that happening a 10 while back. 11 MR. : They looked on the computer 12 for the number? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : How do you look -- 15 MR. Like -- 16 MR. -- on the computer? 17 MR. -- they, I guess, like, you 18 know, somebody must have had work control, and 19 had El access and just looked up the number -- 20 MR. : Rh-hmm. 21 MR. : -- of what control would have 22 on the El, then filled it out, and then said, 23 here you go. And turned it in. And that went 24 on for some time or whatever. So -. 25 MR. : When was this? 148 1 MR. : I don't even remember when it 2 is. But I remember that was -. I remember 3 that was a thing because it was, like, some 4 people were supposed to get in trouble for 5 that. 6 MR. : Do you recall if 7 IIII, or any of the SHU staff had access to the 8 El? Even yourself. Did you guys have access to 9 the El document? 10 MR. : No. I didn't have access to 11 the El at that time. No. 12 MR. : What about the rest of the 13 staff? 14 MR. 15 MR. 16 count? 17 MR. He already said. 18 MR. : No, he did, but I'm going to 19 ask about the 10:00 p.m. and the midnight. How 20 would they know to go off the -? I know you 21 went off the master sheet, right? 22 MR. Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : What sheet -? What number -? 24 Where would they have got the number two? Not 25 for a 10:00 p.m. and a midnight. : I don't think so. : How would they have the been EFTA00115885 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 149 MR. : With that -- MR. : (Indiscernible *01:35:18). MR. -- yeah, what would have happened with that is, is you just, like, when, like, I'm leaving at 10:00. So, I'm leaving at 10:00. And they were there for the 4:00 count. So, they already know numbers. MR. : From the 4:00? MR. : They already know the numbers. MR. : So, they're going based upon the 4:00 count (Indiscernible *01:35:37) - MR. IIIIIiiiiight. MR. : -- and if anybody left, they would just subtract them from that number MR. MR. MR. MR. the 4:00 MR. MR. *01:35:44). MR. : put, like, this -. All : Right. -- that you used? Mm-hmm. : Because they know that count -- : Yeah. So, like -- -- (Indiscernible 150 1 right. So, let's just say for the sake of 2 argument, if 9:30, right? It's 9:30, lock the 3 institution down, you count, you take a count 4 at 10:00. You count at 10:00, and at this 5 point in time, you know, 12:00, you're off or 6 whatever. So, midnight comes around, your 7 relief comes in, or whatever the case. But in 8 this particular case, the onl erson that went 9 home was . Because was still 10 here. So, if was coming in, or 11 whatever, yo, was here the whole time. 12 She knows all the numbers. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : He ain't got to do nothing. 15 MR. : So, she know that the 16 4:00 count cleared, the number that you called 17 in was good at the time -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. -- or at least they said 20 it was good. 21 MR. : And nobody else left, or came 22 in, and this -. 23 MR. : So, they could just use 24 that number -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 151 MR. : -- as their base count, and at the 10:00 p.m., anything that changed, because was -- MR. Mm-hmm. MR. : -- you know, constant. She was there the whole time. MR. Yes. MR. : Okay. MR. : Have you ever slept on the job while ou was -- MR. : Not intentionally. MR. -- while you're sitting on the computer. MR. Like, you know, you sitting on the computer tou might. MR. : Dose off. MR. : A box of sandman. Especially if you'reliiiii 16 hours on the regular basis. MR. : Did you sleep on August 9th - MR. No. MR. -- when you were working? MR. No. MR. : Have you heard of a SHU - let's just talk about SHU employees whenever 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 152 you were working - have you heard about SHU employees sleeping on the job? MR. : Rumors, but I never observed it. MR. : Okay. When you were those three of you u s in there, did you observe or sleeping -- No. -- during the shift on August MR. MR. 9th? MR. : No. I don't know how they would because we was running the whole time. MR. There's going to be a lot of unnecessary stuff in there, but if you want to ask those. MR. : Okay. Well, how do you answer some of these questions, you said last time you interacted with Epstein, something triggered in our mind, ri ht? And so, that's why you told and MR. Yeah. MR. -- to keep an eye on him. Okay. Do you know if there was any threats made to Epstein? MR. : No. EFTA00115886 153 1 MR. : Did you know why Epstein was 2 in prison? 3 MR. Well, yeah. I watch the news. 4 MR. : Okay. Did you have any 5 feelings re arding why he was in prison? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Did Epstein have -. Go 8 ahead. You were going to say something. 9 MR. : Like, feelings, what you did 10 is what you did. My personal feelings don't 11 matter. It's a job. You know what I'm saying? 12 So, like, I do my best for something like that. 13 That's why I don't personally like to read 14 people's paperwork. Because once you know, you 15 can't un-know it. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : So, but nah, I didn't have any 18 feelings towards him or whatever. I'm, like, 19 okay, he needs to go here, he needs to go -. 20 All right. There you go. There you go. 21 MR. : What is your understanding of 22 what happened to Epstein on August 9th and 10th 23 of 2019? 24 MR. : My understanding of it was 25 that -- 154 1 MR. : What is your understanding of 2 what happened to him? 3 MR. : -- that he hung himself. He 4 hung himself in the cell. 5 MR. : What is your - you said he 6 hung himself? 7 MR. : Yeah. That's my understanding 8 of what hiiiiiid. 9 MR. : Do you have any information 10 with regard to any suspicious activity that 11 occurred on August 9th and 10th, 2019, leading 12 up to the discovery of Epstein in his cell? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : What do you know about 15 someone else taking Epstein's life? 16 MR. Ililli Nothing. 17 MR. : What do you know about 18 other's assisting in taking Epstein's life? 19 MR. Nothing. 20 MR. : Did Epstein take his own 21 life? 22 MR. 23 assume so. 24 MR. : Did Epstein act alone in 25 taking his own life? : I wasn't there, but I would 155 1 MR. : I would assume so. I wasn't 2 there. I didn't see anything, but -. 3 MR. : Did you have any involvement 4 with Epstein's death? 5 MR. No. 6 MR. : What would have prevented 7 Epstein's death? What actions could have been 8 taken to pfLigt his death? 9 MR. IIIII: I mean, personally, I feel 10 that if a person wants to take their own life, 11 they're going to do it. You know? So, I do not 12 know. 13 MR. : Do you think them actually, 14 if the C.O.s actually did the rounds and the 15 counts, it could have helped? 16 MR. : I think it could have been a 17 deterrent, but the truth of the matter is, if 18 somebody is actually attempting to do that, 19 they're going to do it. That's not going to 20 stop. And the only reason I say that is 21 because of my mother's (Indiscernible 22 *01:40:12). If you want to do it, you're going 23 to do it. 24 MR. : What about in a cell? In 25 a cell, though, if he actually had a cell mate 156 1 in there. Do you think that that would have 2 potentially helped to actually somebody else in 3 there? 4 MR. : Yes and no. I think it might 5 have deterred him for a bit, but, you know? 6 MR. : He would have found a 7 way? 8 MR. : He would have found a way. If 9 that's really what you wanted to do, you would 10 have founiiii wa iiiiiiBut that's an opinion. 11 MR. : At least in this specific 12 circumstance, you think that, between the 13 counts and the rounds, and then getting an 14 actual cell mate in there for him, because he 15 was required to have a cell mate, do you think 16 that those things would have at least helped? 17 MR. : I think it would have helped. 18 Yes. 19 MR. : What is some of the 20 systematic problems inside the MCC - and 21 specifically, the SHU - that allowed for 22 Epstein to die? 23 MR. : A lack of staff. Overworked 24 staff. Not getting clear instructions on what 25 to do in certain instances; i.e., you know, he EFTA00115887 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 157 doesn't have a cell mate, but there was no directive of who to put in there. Like I said, if you have an odd number, you don't have a body to put there. MR. : Hmm. MR. : You can't just take an inmate from another house that didn't do anything, just because you trust him, and put him in there. MR. : So, you're saying there should have been a backup inmate? MR. . There should have been a backup plan for that. You know, and it was -. To me, it was decisions made, on the part of the institution, that were wrong. And because they made these decisions, now those other two officers have to pay for it. You know, Epstein, as high-profile as he is, should not have been in SHU. He should have been in Ten South. MR. MR. : Why do you say that? That's not a decision that we get to make. Because he's too high a profile. Look, after that thing hit the news, the world knew who he was. The world knew who El Chapo 158 1 was. El Chapo never touched a unit. He went 2 straight to Ten South. Why would you put 3 somebody that high-profile, you know, that 4 close to iiiiiiiilivery day inmates. 5 MR. : Now, if people are in Ten 6 South, can they have attorney visits? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : So, they can still do 9 that attorne visit all day long -- 10 MR. : But they don't -- 11 MR. : -- if -. 12 MR. • -- they could. But in Ten 13 South, the attorney goes up to Ten South. 14 There is a room where it's a barrier between - 15 they can talk to each other, but it's a glass 16 and stuff in there, anything that needs to get 17 handed, you know, search it, and then, you pass 18 it over. You could obviously can't read 19 anybody's legal work, but you make sure that 20 there's no contraband in there, when it has -. 21 And there's another room in there with a slot 22 that they can, that the lawyer could do that, 23 but the lawyer has to show it to you first, and 24 then hand it to the inmate. 25 MR. : Do you think that the 159 1 attorney visits had anything to do with the 2 fact that he wasn't placed in Ten South? 3 MR. : I definitely think that's a 4 possibility. You hear lawyer, and they jump, 5 too. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : Perfect example is - and this 8 is more so the systemic problems that are here 9 - if an inmate says, I want to talk to my 10 family, I want to -. For whatever reason, you 11 know, and they get a call from the judge, the 12 lawyer, anything of the sort. They're going 13 to, oh, you've got to give this inmate a phone 14 call, even though this inmate just had his 15 required phone call, and it's not time for that 16 phone call again. As soon as you hear lawyer 17 or judge or whatever, they're going to tell you 18 to do that. 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. : Even though he's supposed to 21 wait his time. You know, so, but that's how -. 22 I hope that answers your question. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. Fair enough. That's enough. 25 MR. : Just back to the call 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 that you said that you made some time between 9:30 and 10:00. Would it have potentially been to the control center? MR. : I guess it's possible. It was definitely possible. Because if anything or whatever, like, because that is one of the places that we call, control, the lieutenant's office, the unit team, and, you know, sometimes you might make a phone call, like, oh, no, this person ain't here, try this person, try control center. it's possible. MR. 1111111111: So, looking at the 9th, that roster, who would have been on between 9:30 and 10:00 -- MR. MR. MR. : This is -- -- in control center -- -- the 9th. MR. -- or the lieutenant's office? Who could have been some potential possibilities that you spoke with? MR. : iiirow, I could have possibly spoke to I could have - and honestly, enough - I could havel ly, possibly spoke to or too. But yeah. I wouldn't have asked him. EFTA00115888 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 161 MR. IIIIIIiiiikay. MR. : Was there any that you said you definitely would have spoken to someone higher than you? Are you any of those people higher than you? MR. MR. MR. : -- well, (Indiscernible *01:44:52), I'm a seven, they're eights. MR. : Okay. MR. You know, and they've been in the buildin for so long, that they -- MR. : Sure, sure, sure. MR. -- they know every nook and cranny in here. MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. MR. So, that's, like, that's one of the people, like, oh, wait a minute, I don't know how to do something. Hey, can you teach me how to do this? MR. : Sure. MR. : You know, so, they always gave me good information. So, I would have probably asked them. is always giving me good : I mean -- : Or r 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 162 information when I'm trying to learn something. So, I might have asked him. MR. : And so, now - and again, thinking back on, like, how, like you're saying, this is such a higher profile thing, and this was so in the media, and everybody who knew who he was after this - thinking back to that, and thinking, like, oh, shit, I knew he didn't have a cell mate, I know I called somebody, that doesn't help jog your memory of what was said, or what was done, and the fact that you're involved now, specifically, with central -- MR. Yeah. And I'm -- MR. : -- (Indiscernible *01:45:41). MR. exactly who I MR. MR. MR. -- and I'm trying to remember oke to. I really am. : Because I mean -- Yeah. : -- wouldn't you have thought of that, like, even, like, that day after, like, oh, man, good thing I called that person and told them? MR. : Yeah. And, like, the only 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 reason, I'm assuming that the reason that I don't remember is because I was just moving so fast. Like, I'm usually very, very detailed and trying to remember things, and -- MR. MR. MR. : Sure, sure. : -- you know, but -. : All right. And then, do you know anything about, if the 10:00 p.m. count was conducted? That, I don't know. : You just -- That -- . -- you were gone. - I was gone. : Okay. So, you were one by -- Yeah. I was definitely gone. -- before the 10:00 p.m. right. Do you want to ask MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. definitel MR. MR. count. All anything? MR. : No. MR. : Do we have - on the other interview sheets, I had, like, the list of (Indiscernible *01:46:33). Some here. Let me just look. 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 164 MR. : Initial. Just initial this one, too. MR. : Do you know anything about Epstein being prematurely removed from suicide watch; and the reasons why, if he was? MR. : Prematurely removed? Factually speaking, I don't know if it's premature. I'm not psych. Personally speaking, yeah, I think it's probiliiiiiiiitle fast. MR. : Do you know if anybody had any influence on him being removed from suicide watch? MR. : That, I don't know. MR. : Okay. So, you don't know anything about, like, attorneys, or judges, or wardens, or anything -- MR. No. MR. : -- who had contact with him? MR. to that. MR. : Sure. Do you know anything about the MCC SHU cameras being tampered with or manipulated? MR. : No. Yeah. I don't get to be privy EFTA00115889 1 2 3 4 S 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 165 MR. : No. Do you know anything about Epstein being in his assigned cell on August 10th? Not being in his assigned cell on August 1011)2.019? MR. IIIII: No. Not being in his assigned _-? You mean, that's because the 10th is when he was discovered? MR. MR. MR. : Correct. mm. No. : So, you don't -. MR. : Like, so, he was -. Because, I mean, like, I worked that day, but I worked at 2:00. So -. MR. : Who's in charge of making sure that the inmates are in the cells that shows within the - I don't know if it was Sentry or what system would I be that inmate cell assignments are in? MR. IIIII: Oh, like, the Sentry. Sentry. Yes. MR. ensure that -- MR. : That the -. MR. -- Sentry matches what cells they're in? : So, whose job is it to 166 1 MR. : That's a collective. Really. 2 You know, in the SHU, there's supposed to be 3 the OIC. And probably with a little help from 4 C&A. On a regular housing unit, you get a new 5 inmate, hey, C&A, I got this new inmate, here's 6 his numbers, and here's the bed assignment, and 7 C&A keys it in. In SHU, usually - because it's 8 supposed to be four people in there - the SHU 9 OIC wouldiiiiiiiiinmate in, when they arrive. 10 MR. : Okay. So, if after 11 they're -. So, if he arrives from suicide 12 watch on July 30th, 2019, and he's placed in 13 cell A -- 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- but for whatever 16 reason, a few hours later, it's determined he 17 can't be in cell A, he's got to be in cell B, 18 and him and his roommate, Reyes, were moved 19 over to cell B. Who's responsible for making 20 that chap e? 21 MR. IIIII: For making it physically or on 22 the computer? 23 MR. : In the computer. 24 MR. : You, like, you, normally, you 25 would want it to be the OIC. For this 167 1 particular case, I would assume that a 2 lieutenant would have been all over that, and 3 they would have made sure it was done properly. 4 MR. : So, in this case, should 5 it have been Lieutenant IIII, who was the SHU 6 lieutenant? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. So, he should 9 have been making sure -. So, I mean, it's from 10 July 30th all the way to August 10th. He's in 11 a cell that doesn't match up with what Sentry 12 says. 13 MR. : Yeah. That's not good. 14 MR. : So, who, during that 15 period, should have caught that -- 16 MR. : That would have been -- 17 MR. -- (Indiscernible 18 *01:49:3322___ 19 MR. -- that would have been the 20 SHU lieutenant. 21 MR. : The SHU lieutenant -- 22 MR. Yeah. 23 MR. -- would have audited 24 those reports? 25 MR. : Yeah. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 168 MR. To see who is in -. And how often is that audited, do you know? MR. : I don't know right off hand. MR. : Okay. MR. But yeah. SHU lieutenant should have cau ht that one. MR. : And does that -- MR. : Yeah. MR. -- have anything to do with the OIC on the different shifts, to say, like, all right, are these inmates in their appropriate cells, or is Sentry up to date? MR. : We can ask one another these questions or whatever, but it's very difficult MR. • Okay. MR. • -- to, you know, do that with everything that's going on, because even during shift change, nothing stops moving. So, the way I was taught is, like, the morning watch shift, because things slowed down, is they're supposed to go through the paperwork and check it, and fix ever thing. MR. : Okay. MR. : This is the way that I was EFTA00115890 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 taught how to do it. You know? So. MR. : Yeah, but ultimately, you believe it was the SHU lieutenant that should have been responsible? MR. MR. MR. • Yes. : Is that a yes or no? Yes. MR. : Do you know -. Did we ever talk about cell searches? MR. MR. : Do you know if cell searches were being conducted in the SHU in July and AL., 22 t of 2019? MR. IIIII: On my shift, no. On the day shift, that's when they're supposed to be conducted, because you have more staff, and you can pull inmates out and actually execute that. On the evening shift, you don't have enough staff to do that. MR. : Per policy, in the SHU, aren't you supposed to - even at that time - to be doing five cell searches per shift? MR. : Yeah. You're supposed to do five cell searches per shift, but being that they're in the SHU and you can't just pull them 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 out like that, it's impossible to do that. So, when you do your searches in SHU, you search kind of, like, the common areas, and, you know, things of that nature, during the day, you know, because inmates are going to recreation, medical, and all this, and things of that nature, or whatever. And so, and you have more people. So, it's a lot easier to move people from one place, holding cell over here, search the cell, put them back. It's a lot easier. When I'm on the evening shift, if, you know, if I'm doing social visits - social visits, well, that, too - social visits, or phone calls, or cell sanitation, meaning that, you know, inmates get the broom and sweeps out his cell, I hold the bag up to the slot, he throws his trash out, and then I'm onto the next one. You know, it's -- MR. MR. MR. • Okay. : -- yeah. • So, are you aware that, at the time, in August 2019, though, it was a policy at least, maybe not practice, but a policy, that five cell searches were supposed to be being conducted during the evening watch? 171 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : You didn't even know 3 that? 4 MR. : No. S MR. : So, they were not being 6 conducted then? 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 MR. 10 people -- 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. -- to pull these inmates out. 13 MR. : And the morning watch, 14 that was the policy, that you just conduct 15 searches of the common areas. But during day 16 watch, and night watch, you were supposed to be 17 doing cell searches. 18 MR. : Easier enough if you have a 19 full crew -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. • -- but if you don't have a 22 full crewjyL21.2_you going to execute that? 23 MR. IIIIIIIIII: So, the reason why they 24 weren't being done is because you were 25 understaffed? No. Not cells. : Yeah. Because you don't have the 172 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 understaffed? 4 MR. : Yes. S MR. : Okay. Do you remember 6 them ever being done at night watch? 7 MR. : No. I've never seen a cell 8 search conducted on the evening shift. 9 MR. : Okay. That's all I got. 10 MR. : That's all I got, too. 11 MR. : Anything - you've got 12 questions for us? - or anything you want to ask 13 about this stuff, or -? 14 MR. : Hmm. Where do I stand in the 15 mix of alL__,_this at this point? 16 MR. IIIIIIIIII: We don't -. This is a 17 big investigation. We're talking to a ton of 18 people. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So, 21 is, we just basically put 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : We don't, you know, say 24 this person or, you know? We basically give our 25 report to the BOP, and the BOP determines -- Overworked and as far as what we do the puzzle together. EFTA00115891 173 174 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- what it is that's 3 going to happen to people. So, I can't 4 necessarily say this or that, how you stand, or S how you don't stand. We're the fact finders. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : You know, we, you know, 8 we present information. We don't make 9 determinations. So, based upon, you know - and 10 again, I think you've already provided all this 11 information in the past - it's just now, we 12 needed to gain clarification of exactly what 13 you meant from what you said -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- and that was, again, 16 the purpose of this. So, we can't really say. 17 What we can say is that - again - you're kind 18 of, like, a small piece of this puzzle. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. My next question is, 20 even though this happened so long ago, why wait 21 so long? 22 MR. : And then, that's -- 23 MR. : Because that's not the only -. 24 Like, that's an incident, yes, and it's a big 25 one, but working in here, things happen all the 1 time. So -- 2 MR. : Sure. 3 MR. : -- to be expected to remember 4 S MR. : I totally understand. 6 MR. : -- something from 2019, all 7 the way to 2021, and since that timeframe, I've 8 had other inmates attempt suicide, I've had -- 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : -- other inmates attack staff 11 members. I've had to, you know, be a part of a 12 use of force teams. Multiple things. And I 13 got to go back to 2019 and try to remember 14 specific details -- 15 MR. : Absolutely. No, and that 16 is -- 17 MR. -- do you know how difficult 18 that is? 19 MR. : I couldn't agree more, 20 and those details should have been provided in 21 2019. They should have been asked. It's part 22 of the reason why a senior special agent is on 23 this, is to make sure that these questions are 24 being asked -- 25 MR. : Oh. 175 1 MR. : -- and it's also why 2 there's a new case agent. So - you know, on 3 this - so, to make sure that we're going 4 through these things, it's, like, why weren't S these questions asked? Why weren't, you know, 6 that's part of the reason -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- why we're here. 9 MR. And -. 10 MR. : Is to say, like, all 11 right, well, we'll reading this, but what does 12 he mean b that? You know what I mean? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : So, that's - again - why 15 we're here, is, like, all right, I could see 16 that you said whatever it is you said, but it's 17 not clear at all with what you meant. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : And so, that's why we're 20 here, is to just get clarity on exactly what it 21 was that was stated, and it's also part of the 22 reason wh we've -- 23 MR. : Got the recorder. 24 MR. : -- recorded every single 25 on these, is so that we don't have that problem 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 176 in the future of, like, well, now we can say exactly what was the question that was asked, what was MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. stated -- : Stated -- -- in response. -- and what was meant. : Right. Mm-hmm. : And so, that's part of it. The old case agent, at least from us, is no longer with us. So, that's another reason why, you know, there's a lot of reasons why we're doing it now, and we weren't able to do it for a time period. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : I'm just not -. I'm not sure that I can, you know, I can disclose what those -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : -- reasons were. But there were reasons. And now, we're trying to move as fast as we can. I don't know if you've heard, but we've been in here talking to a lot of people. MR. : Yeah. I've heard. I heard EFTA00115892 177 1 that somebody was here. Who it was, I don't 2 know. 3 MR. • Yeah. Yeah. 4 MR. But now, I do. S MR. : Yeah. So, we're talking 6 to a lot of people, especially a lot of people 7 that, you know, worked August 9th and 10th, 8 because we've got to, you know -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- got to make sure that 11 we have our information right. Not just that 12 we talked to people, but we've got to make sure 13 that that's the actual, accurate information. 14 So -- 15 MR. : Fair enough. 16 MR. : -- so, that's why we're 17 back out here, is primarily to make sure that 18 things are accurate. 19 MR. : Okay. Not a problem. And so, 20 with all this and everything like that, so, 21 what's the next course of action? So, I've been 22 interviewed, you're still interviewing other 23 people. So what happens next? 24 MR. That's what we're kind of 25 saying, is, like, we take the information and 178 1 we pass it along. When that will happen, I 2 couldn't tell you that. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Ultimately, though, I S would think what would, you know, if you're 6 talking about what happens specifically with 7 you, that would be in the hands of the BOP. 8 So, and who in the BOP? I don't know about 9 that. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : I don't know if it 12 happens with the warden level. I don't know if 13 it happens with OIA. I don't know what happens 14 there. But yeah. Timing. Like, I don't know. 15 All I know is we're not judge and jury. All we 16 are is the -- 17 MR. Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- the questioners. 19 MR. : Do the -. Find the facts. 20 MR. Gotcha. 21 MR. : Can I see all the documents 22 we showed? You si ned all? 23 MR. : Yeah, he did. 24 MR. : You sure. All right. 25 Anything in there, right? I think this -- 179 1 MR. Nope. 2 MR. M.- I think this part right : 3 here now.iiiiiiii 4 ii MR. : All right. Anything S else? 6 MR. : If you can think of anything 7 else, anything else you think that you forgot 8 to share with us -- 9 MR. Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- you're (Indiscernible 11 *01:57:23iiIIIIIII 12 MR. : Now, on that note, 13 though, being that this will be reviewed, is 14 there anytim you want to say for the record? 15 MR. IIIII: Pretty much that, like, 16 although it may be a tragedy that he's gone, I 17 wasn't here, I didn't have anything to do with 18 d I really don't think that, you know, 19 and IIII should be going through what 20 t ey re going through. I'm not saying that 21 they didn't make a mistake. But that's 22 personal o inion. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Are you still in 25 communication with them? 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 180 MR. No. I never had either one of their phone numbers. MR. IIIIIIii ikay. MR. : Okay. Great. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much for your cooperation. It is -- MR. : 8:16. MR. Senior Special Agent • -- is , and I'm turning off the recorder. EFTA00115893 181 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00115894