EFTA00116353.pdf

DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL SEPTEMBER 23, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES , Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00116353 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00116354 3 1 MR. : This is Special Agent 2 . Today is September 23, 2021. The time 3 is 9:20 a.m., and we are beginning the 4 interview. My name is . I'm a 5 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 7 York Field Office, and these are my 8 credentials. 9 MS. : I see. 10 MR. : This interview with the 11 Federal Bureau of Prisons correctional officer 12 lieutenant, . Did I say that 13 right? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 16 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 17 of the Inspector General, DOJ investigation. 18 Today's date is September 23rd, 2021. The time 19 is 9:20 a.m. This interview is being conduced 20 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New 21 York City. Also present is DOJ Senior Special 22 Agent. 23 MR. . And 24 these are my credentials. Thank you. 25 MR. : This interview will be EFTA00116355 4 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record, and spell your last name? To 4 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent, 5 6 MR. : Senior Special Agent 7 8 MS. : I'm correctional lieutenant 9 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being 13 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 14 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 15 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 I1I-226/2. The form states, United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00116356 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure, and security failure. 6 This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, 7 you do not have to answer questions. No 8 disciplinary action will be taken against you 9 if you choose not to answer questions. Any 10 statement you furnish may be used as evidence 11 in any future criminal proceedings, or agency 12 disciplinary proceedings, or both." The waiver 13 states, "I understand the Warnings and 14 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 15 make a statement and answer questions. No 16 promises or threats have been made to me, and 17 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 18 used against me." Please read the form, and if 19 you understand -- 20 MS. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- can you please sign where 22 it says employee name, signature? 23 MR. : Need a pen? 24 MS. : Thank you. 25 MR. : Move that out of the way. EFTA00116357 6 1 MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible 2 *00:03:03). Thank you. 3 MS. : Okay. 4 MR. : Lieutenant , do you 5 understand the form? 6 MS. : Yes. Yes, sir. 7 MR. : And you are signing the form 8 also. 9 MS. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Thank you. 11 MS. : That's it. Do my name? 12 MR. : I'll fill out the -- 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- that part. 15 MS. : No problem. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Thank you. 18 MS. : Thank you. 19 MR. : I can fill it out, 20 21 MR. : This is Agent . I'm 22 signing on the signature of the Office of 23 Inspector General. 24 MR. : Thank you. And I am 25 going to sign as the witness and put my name. EFTA00116358 7 1 Thanks. 2 MR. : Before starting the 3 interview, I would like to place you under 4 oath. Lieutenant , can you please raise 5 your right hand? 6 MS. : Sure. 7 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 8 truth and nothing but the truth during this 9 interview? 10 MS. : Yes. Yes, sir. 11 MR. : Thank you. Please let me 12 know if you do not understand any questions, 13 and I will repeat it or try to rephrase it for 14 you. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : What is your current home 17 address? 18 MS. : 19 A1B, Brooklyn, New York. 11209. 20 MR. : Thank you. What is your date 21 of birth? 22 MS. : 23 MR. : What is your social security 24 number? 25 MS. : EFTA00116359 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 MR. 2 current cell 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 education? 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 MS. MR. in New York? MS. : It's upstate New Rochelle, New York. Yes. MR. : And what was your major in? MS. : I was in psychology, though I believe is liberal arts. MR. : What did you do prior to working for the BOP? MS. : I worked for the New York City Police Department as a school safety agent. MR. : And when did you start working for the BOP? MS. : When did I start? MR. : Start. MS. : May 18, 2003. 8 Thank you. And what is your phone number? What is your highest level of College. Bachelors. Which college? The College of New Rochelle. And what was your -? That's EFTA00116360 9 1 MR. : When did you graduate 2 college? 3 MS. : May of 2012 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Thank you. Do you have any 6 military service? 7 MS. : No, sir. 8 MR. : And you said in 2003, you 9 started with the BOP? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : And when did you -? What was 12 the -? When did you first start? 13 MS. : MDC Brooklyn. 14 MR. : MDC Brooklyn? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : And you started as a C.O.? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. When did you graduate 19 from BOP training? 20 MR. : You don't remember the 21 answer? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : It was probably shortly 24 after you started, correct? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116361 10 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Okay. And when did you 3 come to MCC? 4 MS. : I came to MCC January 31st, 5 2011. 6 MR. : And have you been here 7 since? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And have you been 10 in the SIS Shop since then? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I went into the SIS Shop in 14 2016. 15 MR. : 2016? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And then, in 2019, were 18 you a lieutenant with the SIS Office? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Great. 21 MR. : Okay. That's the basic 22 background we cover to -- 23 MR. : Yeah, no 24 MR. : on that. 25 MR. : -- you can go into the EFTA00116362 11 1 questions. 2 MR. : So, what we're going to talk 3 to you today about is Mr. Are you aware of 4 who Jeffrey Epstein is? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : And was he an inmate at the 7 MCC? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Were you familiar with him 10 while he was housed here at the MCC? 11 MS. : Yeah. I would say yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Let's start off. 13 Well, were you familiar with his first suicide 14 attempt? 15 MS. : Yes. I did the first 16 investigation on that one. Yes. 17 MR. : Did that approximately, did 18 that happen approximately around July 23rd, 19 2019? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Can you tell us what 22 happened? Based on your investigation and what 23 you found. 24 MS. : Based on my investigation, 25 once I found out about the suicide attempt when EFTA00116363 12 1 I came to work, I spoke to the staff team, as 2 well as his cellmate, to try to get both of 3 their sides of the story. 4 MR. : Was that Tartaglione? 5 MS. : Yes. Mr. Tartaglione. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : I spoke to Epstein in the R&D 8 area. He was a little hesitant, at first, 9 about speaking to me. He kept asking me who 10 was I? You know, what was I interviewing him 11 for? And I explained to him my position as the 12 SIS Lieutenant, to ensure his safety needs are 13 met, and, you know, I questioned him about the 14 alleged suicide attempt, and he said, I don't 15 remember what happened. I remember him telling 16 me he went to get a drink of water, and all he 17 remembered is he was on the floor. And the 18 staff will come in and he wouldn't provide much 19 of anything else. 20 I did question him about Mr. Tartaglione. 21 You know, did you guys have any words with each 22 other? You know, we were just cellmates at the 23 time. You know, when you went to get the drink 24 of water, and he would -. Either he say he was 25 laying on the floor, or sitting on the bed. EFTA00116364 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 1 You know? I asked him, you know, are you 2 telling me the truth? Is there anything that 3 you would like to volunteer? You know, did you 4 intentionally try to harm yourself? And at 5 times, like, I didn't try to harm myself. I 6 don't know what happened. I just got a drink 7 of water, and next thing you know, I was on the 8 floor. MR. : Did you ask him if attempted to harm him? Yes. : And what did he say to MS. MR. that? MS. : And he said no. MR. : And he said Tartaglione did not MS. MR. • MS. MR. MR. around h MS. • was. At : Yes. : -- try to harm him? : He said he did not. : Okay. : Was there a noose found is neck, at that point? Do you know? : I think it was. I think it the time. It was a rope, I want to say, or something to that effect. They had EFTA00116365 14 1 brought down to the SIS Shop, that they found. 2 I can't tell you that they found it around his 3 neck because I can't remember. To be honest 4 with you. 5 MR. : And how did the C.O.s become 6 aware that he had possibly tried to commit 7 suicide? 8 MS. : To my knowledge, Mr. 9 Tartaglione is who alerted the officers, by 10 banging on the door. 11 MR. : And when the officers found 12 him, did they find a noose around his neck? 13 How did they find him, do you recall? 14 MS. : I can't recall. I know that 15 they found him on the floor. But I can't 16 recall if it was around his neck. 17 MR. : And Mr. Epstein stated that 18 Tartaglione did not try to kill him. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Except there was a noose. 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Did he mention if he made the 23 noose himself, or how the noose came about? 24 MS. : No. He didn't. 25 MR. : And what was your impression EFTA00116366 15 1 after talking to him? Did you believe that he 2 tried to take his own life? 3 MS. : I kind of had mixed feelings 4 about it because he was insistent on that he 5 didn't try to take his own life. You know? 6 Normally, a person will say, okay, this was 7 going on, and he kept saying, no, I didn't try 8 to kill myself. I didn't try to kill myself. 9 I don't know what happened. So, I mean, during 10 the investigation and conclusion, I can't say 11 that he, you know, he did or he didn't, to be 12 honest with you. From the answers that I was 13 getting back from him. 14 MR. : But he stated himself that 15 Tartaglione didn't try to kill him? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : So, the only other option 18 would have possibly been that he tried to 19 commit suicide himself? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Or do you believe that 23 inmate Tartaglione attempted to harm him? 24 MS. : I don't. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00116367 16 1 MS. : I don't. 2 MR. : So, was it inconclusive? 3 MS. : It was pretty inconclusive. 4 MR. : What is your feeling of 5 what happened, though? Being a trained 6 investigator. 7 MS. : I don't know if it was, you 8 know, looking back, I kind of felt, like, okay, 9 was this, like, did he intentionally try to do 10 something to get our attention? You know, then 11 I leaned to, maybe he didn't. You know? You 12 have two inmates in the cell. And I'm, you 13 know, I'm also looking at did, you know, did 14 Tartaglione tell me the truth. You know, I 15 really can't say what happened because you 16 have, you know, Mr. Epstein saying, you know, 17 no, he didn't try to do anything to me, and I 18 asked about them interacting. Do they talk? 19 And he's, like, yes, we talk. 20 You know, we're cellmates. We talk. We 21 read books. He, you know? So, it wasn't no 22 reason for me to believe that Mr. Tartaglione, 23 you know, tried to harm him because Epstein 24 didn't give me that impression. 25 MR. : And was he placed on EFTA00116368 17 1 suicide watch as a result? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : So then, wouldn't you 4 only be placed on suicide watch if the thought 5 was that he was attempting to self-harm? 6 MS. : If that was the thought made 7 by the psychology department -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : -- they would definitely 10 place you on suicide watch. Even if you said 11 it out of playing, they would place you on a 12 suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, do you know how they 14 made that determination that he would be placed 15 on suicide watch? 16 MS. : I don't know. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MS. : I don't know. 19 MR. : But it wasn't based upon 20 your investigation? 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Was it actually your 23 investigations conclusions, which actually 24 brought him off of suicide watch? 25 MS. : No. EFTA00116369 18 1 MR. : No? 2 MS. : No. I wouldn't say that. 3 Normally, they do their evaluation, the 4 psychology department, and when I guess they 5 determined that the inmates could return to the 6 general population, then they will release them 7 from the suicide watch. 8 MR. : Okay. So, the SIS 9 determination of inconclusive doesn't actually 10 play into if he's on or off of suicide watch. 11 MS. : I don't think it did. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : I don't think it did. 14 MR. : Inmate Tartaglione. Had he 15 been at the MCC for a long time? 16 MS. : Yeah. He's been at the MCC 17 for quite some time. 18 MR. : Did he have any history of 19 violence with any of the inmates? 20 MS. : Not violence. He was more of 21 a cellphone carrier. I think I caught him with 22 a cellphone at a time. 23 MR. : Is -- 24 MS. : You know -- 25 MR. : -- is that why -- EFTA00116370 1 MS. 2 MR. 3 MS. 4 SHU at that 5 MR. 6 got chosen 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 MS. 10 MR. : Sorry. 11 MS. : Actually, I don't. I don't 12 know how they put the two of them together. 13 Normally, if it's, you know, if we're vetting 14 cellmates for, say, that they would ask me, you 15 know, who do you think would be more suitable, 16 but in Epstein's case, nobody asked me. So, 17 don't know how they became cellmates. 18 MR. : You don't know if any 19 decisions were made by the higher ups, in 20 regards to him? 21 MS. : I don't know. 22 MR. : Okay. And after this 23 incident happened, was Tartaglione removed from 24 the cell? Or was inmate Epstein removed from 25 the cell? 19 ■: -- something to that effect. : -- he was in the SHU? ■: I think that's why he was in time. ■: Do you recall how Tartaglione to be Epstein's inmate? : Cellmate. ■: Cellmate. Sorry. ■: Oh. EFTA00116371 20 1 MS. : I'm not sure which one were 2 removed, or if they both was placed in 3 different cells, with different cellmates. I'm 4 not sure. 5 MR. : Well -. 6 MR. : Well, inmate Epstein was 7 actually placed on suicide watch. 8 MS. : Right. But I'm not sure if 9 Mr. Tartaglione remained in that same cell. 10 MR. : Okay. But he was in the SHU 11 after that meeting with him? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Were there any issues with 14 him after that incident? 15 MS. : With? 16 MR. : With Tartaglione. 17 MS. : Not that I'm aware of. 18 MR. : Okay. And we asked about the 19 suicide watch. Now, being that if an inmate 20 was - an incident like this happened, let's 21 skip the fact that it was inmate Epstein -- 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- if an inmate was found 24 with a noose, and there was a possibility of a 25 suicide, what's the normal procedure that EFTA00116372 21 1 happens? What happens to the inmate? What 2 does the MCC do with the inmate? 3 MS. : If it was an incident where 4 he was found, let's say, while I was a 5 lieutenant on, and it happened, I would remove 6 him from the cell, of course, immediately. 7 Notify psychology of what occurred. At that 8 point, I would be placing him on suicide watch, 9 with an inmate companion watching him, but I 10 would make sure, you know, we take all of his 11 clothing, everything, and he would get nothing 12 but a suicide smog. And a suicide blanket. 13 MR. : And how long does that normal 14 suicide watch last? 15 MS. : It can vary. 16 MR. : What's the shortest you've 17 ever seen somebody put om suicide watch? 18 MS. : Maybe a couple of days, but I 19 can't tell you a, you know, one or two days, or 20 three. But maybe a couple of days. 21 MR. : Based on what we've found 22 out, it looks like this attempt was on the 23 23rd, and 24th morning, he was removed from 24 suicide watch and placed in psych observation. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00116373 22 1 MR. : Do you think that was too 2 early to remove him from suicide watch? I know 3 this is -. What is the difference between 4 psych op and suicide watch? 5 MS. : It's the same area. Psych 6 ops is, they just get their clothing back. But 7 they are still being watched. 8 MR. : It's the same thing, 9 right? 10 MS. : It's the same thing. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MS. : They're still being watched 13 by an inmate companion. 14 MR. : Is there any other benefit to 15 being in suicide watch - in terms of suicide 16 watch versus psych observation - any benefits 17 to being in psych ops? 18 MR. : Yeah. You have your 19 clothes. 20 MS. : You get your clothes. 21 MR. : Your clothes. 22 MS. : I mean -. 23 MR. : Was it - if it was any other 24 inmate - would they have given back his clothes 25 that fast? EFTA00116374 23 1 MS. : I don't know. That would be 2 the psychology department determination. 3 MR. : Okay. Did you - now, moving 4 forward, I think around July 30th, I believe, 5 that he was removed from psych observation, and 6 he was placed back in the SHU - do you recall 7 hearing why he was removed from psych 8 observation 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : -- and placed back in the 11 SHU? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Do you have any questions? 14 MR. : Yeah. Just to go back, 15 file back to Nicholas Tartaglione. So, I knew 16 you - when asked - you said you weren't, you 17 knew he was more of a cellmate carrier kind of 18 a guy, but do you know of any instances where 19 he actually did harm another inmate? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : No? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Great. Thank you. 24 MR. : All right. Anything else on 25 the -? EFTA00116375 24 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MR. 5 Were you 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 you be - MS. MR. MS. : Nope. : Okay. : You can go ahead. : Now, let's go to August 9th. working on August 9th, 2019? : I think I was off August 9th. : Okay. Let me just -. Would Would your name be on the -? : On the roster? : On the roster. : Yeah. I would be on the roster. I think I was off, or maybe I left early August 9th. Or something. I can't remember. MR. : I'm going to provide you a copy of August 9th -- MS. : Okay. MR. : -- roster. MCC SHU roster. MS. MR. and let MS. MR. MR. MR. ■ : Yes. : If you can take me know if you were on : No. I'm not on : Okay. : Okay. : And who -- a look at it schedule. it. EFTA00116376 25 1 MR. : Oh, sorry. 2 MR. : -- where would that be 3 listed? Sorry. 4 MR. : I thought you were going 5 to -. I thought we were just talking about 6 this. This next one. Did you hear anything - 7 just going back, before we talk about the 8 suicide watch, psychological observation room, 9 we'll go - did you hear anything about anyone 10 contacting the MCC and requesting that he be 11 removed from psychological observation? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : No? And you didn't hear 14 that, like, for instance, his attorneys were 15 trying to get him off of psychological 16 observation, so that they could continue with 17 their attorney/client visits? 18 MS. : No. I didn't hear. 19 MR. : You never heard that? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Now, we 22 can move to the actual -. 23 MR. : So, I showed you the August 24 9th roster. You said you are not on there? 25 MS. : Can I -. Actually -- EFTA00116377 26 1 MR. 2 MS. 3 Lieutenant, i 4 Lieutenant. 5 Lieutenant. 6 MR. 7 what does it 8 MS. 9 MR. 10 day? 11 MS. 12 Lieutenant. 13 Nobody was in 14 MR. 15 us? 16 MS. 17 MR. 18 the 9th, is w 19 MS. 20 MR. 21 MS. 22 MR. 23 MS. 24 MR. 25 abnormal, for Where -? -- I would be under the SIS f you -. Under the SHU I would be under the SIS And there is - on that 9th, state there? It says unassigned? Unassigned. So, no one was working that No. I was the only SIS I'm trying to think. Yeah. there that day. Can you just circle that for Sure. : So, you were not here on hat you are saying? No. : Okay. No. : And no one was? Not in the SIS Shop. : Oh, wow. Is that being a Friday, without anyone EFTA00116378 27 1 being in SIS? 2 MS. : Actually, the SIS Technician, 3 her days off is Friday and Saturday. 4 MR. : Oh, wow. 5 MS. : And at the time, it was only 6 two of us working in the whole area. 7 MR. : So, there was only one 8 tech and lieutenant? 9 MS. : One tech and one lieutenant. 10 MR. : Would the SIA have been 11 on? 12 MS. : We didn't have one at the 13 time. 14 MR. : Oh, so it was literally 15 just the two of you? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. So, this wasn't, 18 then, abnormal that, on a Friday, no one was 19 working? 20 MS. : No. I normally -- 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 22 *00:19:28). 23 MS. : -- on a Friday, I would have 24 been on because she would have been off. So, I 25 took off -- EFTA00116379 28 1 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:19:36). 2 MS. : -- on Friday. I can't recall 3 why. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MS. : But -. 6 MR. : And who was the SIS tech? 7 MS. : Her name is 8 (Phonetic Sp. *00:19:43). 9 MR. 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : All right. 12 MR. : But she wasn't here? 13 MS. : No. She wasn't here. 14 MR. : And do you recall that 15 you actually - I know that the schedule says 16 that - but do you recall not being here? 17 Thinking that it was the day before. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Put this here just in case we 21 need to go back. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : When did you first become 24 aware that Epstein's cellmate, inmate Reyes, 25 was removed as his cellmate? EFTA00116380 29 1 MS. : The day of the actual 2 suicide. 3 MR. : When you say actual suicide, 4 which would be -- 5 MS. : August 10th. 6 MR. : -- August 10th. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Saturday, when you came in, 9 that's when you learned -? 10 MS. : When I came in. Mm-hmm. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. Were you aware that, when you came in, what were you aware of why Reyes was removed from the institution? MS. : After speaking to him, they told me he got released from court. That's what I was told. MR. : Who told you that he was -? MS. : Not sure. MR. : Not sure. Okay. MS. : I can't remember. MR. : So, your understanding was, Reyes went to court and he just didn't come back? MS. : Right. That's what I understand. EFTA00116381 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 MR. : What's a normal procedure, how do the MCC find out if an inmate is being moved to court, or being transferred out? MS. : From court, you're saying? MR. : From court. Let's say -- MS. : You're talking about court. MR. : -- Reyes was -. MR. : Well, no, in this case, did you ever hear that Reyes actually never 10 went to court, he actually was transferred to 11 another institution? 12 MS. : No. I heard he went to 13 court. 14 MR. : So, even to this date -- 15 MS. : And was released from court. 16 MR. : -- to this date, did you 17 ever hear that, that he never went to court? 18 He actually was transferred? 19 MS. : No. I've never heard that. 20 MR. : Oh, you've never even 21 heard that? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Because 24 that's what happened. He never went to court. 25 He was transferred. EFTA00116382 31 1 MS. : I still don't know. 2 MR. : That's what 3 (Indiscernible *00:21:24). 4 MS. : That's news to me, right. I 5 have -- 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MS. : -- assumed that he went to 8 court, and, you know, maybe, I thought maybe he 9 made bail or something -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : -- and he got released from 12 court. 13 MR. : But that's what everybody 14 was saying, that he actually went to court? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, based on what we - our 18 investigation, I'll show you an email. This 19 email is dated -. This is from 20 from the U.S. Marshals Service. 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : And it went to, it looks like 23 the employees at the R&D. 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : And it says, transfer of EFTA00116383 32 1 inmates on August 8th, 2019, at 10:33 a.m. 2 This email was sent to them. If you take a 3 look at the title, the subject, it says, 4 "Transfer of inmates." 5 MS. : Yeah. 6 MR. : And it says, "Transfer of 7 prisoners from -- 8 MS. : I see it. 9 MR. : -- to GEO. 10 MS. : To GEO. 11 MR. : And inmate Efrain Reyes is 12 stated on this. So, he never -. It's not that 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he went to court. He actually was transferred to GEO. Do you know what the procedure is for something like that? If an inmate is to be transferred, how do they pull the inmate out? How do they let the SHU know that the inmate needs to be pulled out? MS. : Normally, R&D would get in touch with the SHU officers, pretty early in the morning, 6:00 in the morning, to get their courts, and whoever is leaving, ready. MR. : Is that known as a court list? MS. : A court list. EFTA00116384 33 1 MR. : And that list comes over, and 2 they let the SHU officers know? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : So, they prepare them. And 5 on that - if that he was leaving - what would 6 it state on the -? Have you ever heard the 7 term, WAB? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : What does -- 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : -- WAB mean to you? 12 MS. : With All Belongings. 13 MR. : And what is your 14 understanding if it states that? 15 MS. : To me, With All Belongings 16 can mean anything. You know, where is he 17 going? To Brooklyn? Is he going home? 18 MR. : But does it mean that he's 19 coming back? 20 MS. : To me, no. 21 MR. : And your understanding is, if 22 it says WAB, he's leaving for certain? 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : Right. EFTA00116385 34 1 MR. : And when, as an SIS, 2 would you get a copy of those court production 3 lists -- 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : -- or productions? No? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Do you know, I mean, it's on 9 the top, do you ever -. Do you recall, after 10 this investigation started, after Epstein's 11 death, ever seeing that court list for that 12 day? 13 MS. : No. I've never seen it. 14 MR. : If we wanted to obtain a copy 15 of it, do you know if there's any way we can 16 obtain a copy of that? 17 MS. : I would think it should be in 18 the Receiving and Discharge area. 19 MR. : And that's something that 20 they -- 21 MS. : The R&D. 22 MR. : -- if we asked, and based on 23 it, it said no one seems to have maintained a 24 copy of that. It looks like they've printed 25 off for the day, and then they disposed of it. EFTA00116386 35 1 MS. : I don't know. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Was it kept, though, 4 under your investigation, for when you went in 5 on the 10th? Do you know if that was, at all, 6 part of, like, anything that you would have 7 collected? 8 MS. : Did I? I don't think I had 9 the court list. 10 MR. : No? 11 MS. : To be honest with you. I had 12 a lot of stuff. But I don't recall seeing the 13 court list. 14 MR. 15 MS. 16 MR. 17 10th, did 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : So, in the stuff : Oh. : -- that you did, on the you involve at all, did you look into it at all, Reyes leaving and Epstein not having a cellmate? MS. : I think I did. I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork, once I got here, to see where was Reyes. What happened with Reyes. I think I did run his SENTRY paperwork. MR. : Okay. But you didn't -. You didn't ever maintain, you know, obtain that EFTA00116387 36 1 court list, though? 2 MS. : I didn't have the court list. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : I don't recall having a court 5 list. No. 6 MR. : And so, do you - if R&D 7 doesn't maintain it - do you know if there is 8 any way that we could get our hands on one of 9 these court lists? 10 MS. : I don't know. I don't know, 11 in SENTRY, because I don't deal with their 12 functions. So, I don't even know if they were 13 able to - be able to go back. 14 MR. : Yeah, no, they can't. 15 They replace it every day. 16 MS. : Right. 17 MR. : Every (Indiscernible 18 *00:25:14), so no one -- 19 MS. : See, I don't -- 20 MR. : -- it's only maintained 21 in SENTRY for 24 hours. Do you have the other 22 email? 23 MR. : Which one? 24 MR. : The one that they sent 25 everybody else of in R&D. Saying that he was EFTA00116388 37 1 being transferred. 2 MR. : Oh, no. I don't have that 3 email. I think that's separate. I didn't 4 print that one out. 5 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 6 are you familiar with how the U.S. Marshals 7 Service - at least back then, I don't know if 8 they still do this - but they would send out an 9 email the day before, which would be sent to, 10 like, all the lieutenants, and a number of 11 other people, for people who, the following 12 day, are going to court or being transferred. 13 Are you familiar with that email that's sent by 14 the Marshals Service? 15 MS. : I've probably seen it. 16 MR. : Okay. But you don't 17 really know what I'm talking about? 18 MS. : Oh, it -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : -- I would have to see it. 21 To be honest with you. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : I'm going to take a step 24 back. When Epstein was brought out of psych 25 observation, he was placed in the SHU. Do you EFTA00116389 38 1 recall that anyone from upper management, or 2 even psych, mentioning that he was required to 3 have a cellmate? 4 MS. : I didn't hear it, per se. 5 But normally, when they come off of suicide 6 watch, or a psych observation, they have to 7 have a cellmate. And psychology, usually 8 harbor on that. You know? They have to -- 9 MR. : Why is it -- 10 MS. : -- have a cellmate. 11 MR. : -- why is it that they need a 12 cellmate? 13 MS. : I don't want to guess, but I 14 would say, even though, you know, an attempt 15 possibly was made, you want to prevent 16 something happening going forward. 17 MR. : And do you recall - but you 18 said you're not sure - but do you recall that 19 there was a requirement for Epstein to have a 20 cellmate? 21 MS. : Yes. I do recall them saying 22 he had to have a cellmate. 23 MR. : And that was by word of 24 mouth? 25 MS. : By word of mouth. EFTA00116390 39 1 MR. : Do you recall who you heard 2 it from? 3 MS. : Let's see. I want to say Dr. 4 who is the psychologist. I want to say 5 Dr. said that he has to have a cellmate. 6 MR. : So, she probably came down. 7 Do you recall if she told other people in the 8 SHU, in regards to that? 9 MS. : I don't know because I 10 wouldn't have been in the SHU. 11 MR. : All right. 12 MS. : Sorry. 13 MR. : The reason I ask is, now that 14 we know that Reyes is leaving the SHU, right? 15 And he's WAB, that, and the court list comes 16 down, and our understanding is, on that court 17 list, it states WAB -- 18 MS. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- and he's brought down to 20 R&D. And he's removed from the facility. 21 Whose responsibility would it have been, at 22 that point, to make sure that Epstein had a 23 cellmate? 24 MS. : I would say the supervisor. 25 That was the SHU Lieutenant, whoever was on, EFTA00116391 40 1 because he would know that he's leaving out of 2 the SHU. 3 MR. : And this is the August 9th 4 roster again. If you take -. 5 MR. : So, SHU Lieutenant 6 was actually off -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : -- on the 9th, as well. MS. : Okay. MR. : So, if he is off, then who would then become the next person -- MS. : The next person -- MR. : -- moving up? MS. : -- would be the Operations Lieutenant, should have been notified. MR. : And who should have notified the Operations Lieutenant? MS. : Normally, the SHU staff say, you know, this guy left, and, you Epstein doesn't have a bunkie. MR. : And at what point MS. : So, I'm sorry -- MR. : -- should the -- MS. : -- cellmate. MR. : That's fine. would know, EFTA00116392 41 1 MR. : At what point should the 2 SHU staff have notified the Operations 3 Lieutenant? 4 MS. : Immediately. 5 MR. : So, as soon as that 6 person is being -? 7 MS. : As soon as Mr. Reyes came out 8 that cell. 9 MR. : Okay. And is it one 10 person over another, within the SHU, that 11 should have told him? Or is it any one of 12 them? 13 MS. : No. 14 MR. : Or all of them? 15 MS. : I would say any one. 16 MR. : Was there a person referred 17 to as the officer in charge, in the SHU, during 18 that time? Like, one specific -- 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : -- person. 21 MS. : They do have, yes, the SHU 22 OIC, yes. 23 MR. : I know this roster shows SHU- 24 1, SHU-2, SHU-3. But -- 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116393 42 1 MR. : -- was there any specific 2 person, during that time period, who was 3 considered - it might not be listed as the SHU- 4 1 - but was considered to be the officer in 5 charge? 6 MS. : Yes. It would been the SHU 7 number one, which would be Officer . 8 MR. : . But what about, we 9 heard other people refer to as as, 10 though, the officer in charge. Because he's 11 been in there the longest, at that point. 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Have you ever heard that? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : He would be the OIC? 16 MS. : He was the OIC, probably for 17 the quarter, I would say, he was. 18 MR. : And why wouldn't he be 19 listed as SHU-1, if he was the OIC for the 20 quarter? Do you know? 21 MS. : He could have been on his day 22 off. I don't know. 23 MR. : No, no. He was there. 24 And we heard that -- 25 MS. : Oh, he was? EFTA00116394 43 1 MR. : -- he actually was the 2 OIC. But he's not listed as one. 3 MS. : Oh, I don't know. I didn't 4 even see him as the number three. I don't 5 I don't know. 6 MR. : But he should have been 7 listed as one, because he was the quarter -- 8 MS. : If that was his -- 9 MR. : -- post? 10 MS. : -- if that was his post for 11 the quarter, he should have been listed as the 12 SHU number one. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : Unless they did a switch, or 15 a mutual thing, or something to that effect. 16 MR. : And , at that point, 17 in 2019, had enough experience in the SHU, as 18 the SHU OIC, from your recollection? 19 MS. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, the morning of, what 21 happened based on our investigation, is Epstein 22 and his cellmate, Reyes, were removed at the 23 same time. So, Officer came in. 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : With the court order. He EFTA00116395 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 immediately? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Do you think they would have 23 known that it was important that they made the 24 notification? 25 MS. : Yes. knew -- MR. : Court list. MR. : -- court list, and he knew that Reyes was leaving. So, they packed up his stuff in a little brown paper bag, and retrieved Epstein from his cell, also, and they both were transported on the elevator down together. Epstein to attorney conference, and Reyes out. MS. : Okay. MR. : And we know, in the elevator, too, there was a conversation about Epstein needing a cellmate. MS. : Okay. MR. : Now, being that escorted him down, and down, he was in the elevator, and was in the elevator, knowing that Reyes is leaving, out of them two, should either of them have made a notification EFTA00116396 45 1 MR. : Why do you think that? 2 MS. : If you had a conversation 3 about him needing a cellmate, that means - to 4 me - you know that it was important for him to 5 have one. And you knew that his - obviously - 6 Mr. Reyes was leaving WAB. And Epstein needed 7 a cellmate. So, or I feel, like, right then 8 and there, the notification should have been 9 made. Even though he's in attorney conference, 10 but his cellmate is leaving, lieutenant, we 11 need a cellmate for him. 12 MR. : Is there any reason for them 13 to believe that, even though it showed WAB, 14 that Reyes - that for them to believe that 15 Reyes would be coming back? 16 MS. : I would say no. If it says 17 WAB, that's what it is. I would assume that 18 he's not coming back. 19 MR. : Now, if, let's say they've 20 mentioned sometimes they bring inmates down to 21 R&D, and the bus doesn't come. Or they're not 22 going to court, and sometimes they come back 23 up. How long does that process normally take? 24 MS. : It happens. Hmm. I've seen 25 it be a couple of hours, before the inmates EFTA00116397 46 1 will come back up. 2 MR. : So, this is, they were 3 brought down any time between 8:00 a.m. and 4 8:30 a.m. 5 MS. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : So, when you say a couple 7 hours, we're talking about anywhere between 8 10:00 and 10:30 a.m.? 9 MS. : Yeah. I've seen inmates come 10 up later. You know, an hour and a half, you 11 know, he didn't -. He's not leaving on a bus. 12 Once they get everybody on the bus, they will 13 go back up to Special Housing. 14 MR. : Now, if the inmate was not 15 brought back up to the SHU, let's say by even 16 11:00 a.m., right? Because if they're 17 expecting that there is a possibility that the 18 inmate might come back up, and it doesn't 19 happen by 11:00 a.m., should they have made a 20 notification? 21 MS. : They normally would. And 22 because they - I'm going to reach and say - 23 they assumed he was leaving, because he didn't 24 come back -- 25 MR. : I should clarify that -- EFTA00116398 47 1 MS. : -- come by then. 2 MR. : -- I mean, I meant 3 notification, should or anybody in the 4 SHU, at that point, at 11:00, notified the 5 superior, hey, listen - supervisors - hey, 6 listen, Reyes is gone, and Epstein is -- 7 MR. : And not 11:00. Just 8 during their shift. At some point, if they 9 left their shift at 2:00 p.m. without making a 10 notification, should have they known by 2:00 11 p.m., at the very least, that he was not coming 12 back? 13 MS. : Absolutely. 14 MR. : Okay. So, at some point, 15 prior to 2:00 p.m., a notification should have 16 been made? 17 MS. : Yes. Yes. 18 MR. : And you mentioned that it 19 should have been to the SHU Lieutenant. 20 Lieutenant is not there. And it should 21 have been the ops lieutenant. Who was the ops 22 lieutenant during that shift? The morning 23 shift. 24 MS. : 25 MR. : And he should have been EFTA00116399 48 1 notified, and what should have 2 done? 3 MS. : He should have notified, of 4 course, his chain of command, which is the 5 captain, hey, Epstein's cellmate has left, and 6 he needs a cellmate. And that, also, we would 7 have told psychology, you know, Epstein's 8 cellmate left. He needs a cellmate because 9 somebody vetted the cellmates. So, I would 10 say, I guess, they would go back to that 11 process of seeing who was a good fit for him. 12 MR. : And if - what is your 13 understanding - if that notification was never 14 made up the chain of command? 15 MR. : What's your question? 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : What is your understanding, 18 if they never made -? Was somebody at fault, 19 in terms of -. I should clarify that. If that 20 notification never got -. If never 21 told the ops lieutenant, and the ops lieutenant 22 never told the captain, right? When was the 23 next time they would have caught onto the fact 24 Epstein needed a cellmate? 25 MS. : Again, I would say somewhere EFTA00116400 49 1 between that shift, they should have made that 2 notification. If not, it would have went onto 3 the evening shift, that he still was without a 4 cellmate. 5 MR. : And you said that the inmate 6 was vetted. So, could anyone have assigned a 7 cellmate to Epstein? Anyone in the SHU 8 assigned somebody to be Epstein's cellmate? 9 MS. : Normally, in a case where 10 they try to get that good fit, they would talk 11 to the captain, who would talk to psychology, 12 and they'll go through the SHU roster to see 13 who they think would be suitable to put him in 14 with. 15 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 16 else on that? 17 MR. : Yes. So, when you go to 18 - you said the next shift - so, who -? So, 19 you're saying that, after left, and 20 his shift left, then the next shift in the SHU 21 should have, then, made the same notifications 22 up the chain of command? 23 MS. : If they're saying he didn't 24 have a cellmate. 25 MR. : Okay And then, would EFTA00116401 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Yes? 22 MS. : Yes, sir. 23 MR. : Okay. So, is that a kind 24 of an excuse to say, for the operations 25 lieutenant, hey, I know Reyes left, but I 50 that go on again to the morning watch? Because, again, he didn't have a shift for 24 hours. So, every shift, should have they made that notification up? MS. : I would say yes. MR. : Okay. And is it your understanding that the operations lieutenant actually has that same court list, that they would have had, that would have shown him as WAB? MS. : The court list, yeah. Usually, it's in the lieutenant's office, in the mornings. MR. : Okay. So, if says that he actually knows that Reyes left, or thought he went to court, and didn't know if he wasn't going to come back, if he had that court list, that said WAB, should have he referenced that, or looked at it? EFTA00116402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 MS. : I can't speak for -. 16 MR. : Are they supposed to? 17 MS. : I would say yes. 18 MR. • Okay. 19 MS. : Because you know who's moving 20 from the Special Housing. And some of the 21 inmates that move actually are lieutenant 22 moves, where you have to go up and get them. 23 So, you're going to look at the court list to 24 see who is moving. 25 MR. : Okay And then, as far 51 thought he was coming back, and he - or I didn't know if he wasn't coming back - and he did not pass that information onto the next ops lieutenant. Is there - what is your opinion of that matter? MS. : My opinion of that is definitely, you know, something is wrong, because if you have the court list sitting in front of you, it says WAB. And it means he took all his belongings. You know, if it was court, it would say court. MR. : Okay. And do you know how, do the operations lieutenants actually look at that list? EFTA00116403 52 1 as Reyes. Did everyone know who Reyes was at 2 that time? Do you believe that, if, for 3 instance, someone like a , he sees 4 Reyes on the list, sees that he's NAB. Would 5 he know that's Epstein's cellmate? It says 6 he's from the SHU. He's WAB. Would he know 7 that that's Epstein's cellmate? Or do you 8 think that that notification would still need 9 to be made from the SHU, for him to be able to 10 kind of recognize that? 11 MS. : I can't even say he should 12 have known that that was his cellmate because 13 he's in a different area than the Special 14 Housing. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MS. : So, sometimes, you wouldn't 17 know whose cell that up there, you know, up in 18 the Special Housing. 19 MR. : Okay. But if he says, 20 now, SHU didn't tell me, but I knew because I 21 had the court list, and it says WAB, should 22 have he known, at that point, yes, I knew this 23 guy was gone, and he was not coming back? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00116404 53 1 MS. : I can agree with that. 2 MR. : Okay. Great. What do 3 you think the -? Would that court list stay in 4 the operations, or the lieutenants office, 5 throughout the duration of the day, would the 6 next operation lieutenant that came on - which 7 I believe is - would that person have 8 also had that court list? 9 MS. : It normally stay in there for 10 the day. On a clipboard. It usually would be 11 on a clipboard in the lieutenant's office. So, 12 I don't -. I can't say that , you know, 13 looked at it, but it should have been there 14 when he came on. 15 MR. : Should have he looked at 16 it? 17 MS. : I could -. 18 MR. : And I'm asking you this 19 as the SIS lieutenant. We don't know the 20 answer to that. So, that's why we're asking 21 you. 22 MS. : A good lieutenant would. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MS. : Because you would know who is 25 not in your jail. EFTA00116405 54 1 MR. : Right. As far as other 2 people that could have made this notification, 3 what would the unit teams' responsibility be 4 for if one of their people who was assigned to 5 SHU, left the institution? Should have they 6 been coordinating, or making any notifications? 7 MS. : I'm not sure what role they 8 play when the inmates leave the Special 9 housing, to be honest with you. 10 MR. : You don't? 11 MS. : Yeah. I don't know what role 12 they play. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : With their inmates. That's 15 an issue, as far as them leaving. 16 MR. : All right. So, for you, 17 though, you feel, like, the primary person that 18 would be responsible would be the person who 19 was actually with the inmate, who brought him 20 down, and knew that he was leaving? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : So, in this case, 23 . should have made the 24 notifications, it falls primarily on him. Is 25 that what you would say? EFTA00116406 55 1 MS. : I would say him and whatever 2 other officer did the escort with him. 3 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. 4 MS. : Because they know the SHU 5 inmates. 6 MR. : Right. Okay. 7 MR. : What about the officers in 8 the SHU, at that point? Let's say there was - 9 how many officers that you mentioned? - , 10 and who else were in the SHU? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : In the morning shift. 13 MS. : 14 MR. : 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Should they have -. Would 17 they have known that Epstein needed a cellmate? 18 MS. : Yes. If they're working up - 19 yeah - I would say yes. 20 MR. : And let's say, during this 21 shift, should they have understood - I know he 22 asked already - should they have understood the 23 fact that, hey, Epstein needed a cellmate -- 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : -- could they have made EFTA00116407 56 1 notification? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : And who came to the SHU after 4 that? 5 MS. : . Ms. Noel. And 6 • 7 MR. : And during this shift, should 8 they have known also? Should they have made 9 notification? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Anything else on that? 12 MR. : And they would have 13 known, I'm assuming, from doing rounds? 14 MS. : From doing their rounds. 15 MR. : And if they were 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- doing rounds, they 18 would know there's no one in that cell? 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, we can go into the 22 rounds? 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : And the counts. So, based on 25 our - based on what we - in our investigation, EFTA00116408 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 we understood is, the 4:00 p.m. count, on the 9th. The 10:00 p.m. count. MS. : Mm-hmm. MR. : The midnight. The 3:00 a.m., and the 5:00 a.m. counts were not done. MS. : Right. MR. : And if the counts were done, as Agent just asked, if the counts were done at 4:00 p.m., would they have known that was not there, and Epstein needed a cellmate? MS. : Yes. MR. : What about at 10:00 p.m.? MS. : Yes. MR. : All right. And the reason that we were able to determine it, is also because of the fact that inmate was removed from the SHU by . He was actually in the SHU visiting room, and there was an incident where witnessed him possibly having contraband, so he removed him. He called for a lieutenant, and put him into a dry cell in R&D. MS. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Except he was not keyed out. EFTA00116409 58 1 This happened around 1:45 on August 9th, after 2 -. Except he was not keyed until after 3 midnight on August 10th. So, if he was removed 4 from the SHU, and he was placed in R&D dry 5 cell, who should have -? Who had the 6 responsibility to key him out, at that point? 7 off the SHU and place him in R&D? 8 MS. : It would have been the counts 9 and assignment, to walk those in. 10 MR. : That's a CNA? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : I see. Counts and 13 assignment. And how would CNA have known that 14 he got moved? 15 MS. : Well, normally, they would 16 make a notification, I would say, when he got 17 to R&D, that, hey, we have this inmate here, in 18 the dry cell. 19 MR. : So, R&D should have notified 20 counts and assignments? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Was there any responsibility 23 for the officer who removed him from the SHU, 24 and brought him down? 25 MS. : He could have, as well. EFTA00116410 59 1 Because you brought him down. And he's coming 2 off of the SHU base count. 3 MR. : What is -? He's coming off 4 the count -- 5 MS. : Right. 6 MR. : -- so, at 4:00 p.m., the 7 count should have been adjusted on the El, and 8 also -- 9 MS. : Absolutely. 10 MR. : -- okay. Have you ever heard 11 of inmates pre-filling the rounds and count 12 sheets? 13 MS. : Inmates? 14 MR. : Oh. Sorry. Sorry. I 15 apologize. Have you ever heard of the C.O.s 16 pre-filling the rounds and count sheets? When, 17 let's just say the rounds at the start of their 18 shift. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Right? And they go in, they 21 have their round sheet. They expect to do the 22 rounds during the certain times, so they go in 23 and they fill it out for the whole shift. And 24 they try to do it during those times that they 25 filled out. EFTA00116411 60 1 MS. : I've never seen it, to be 2 honest with you. I've never seen that. 3 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 4 doing that? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Has there ever been any 7 incidents in MCC regarding C.O.s pre-filling -? 8 MS. : Not that I know of. 9 MR. : What about the count sheets? 10 Would they start the shift, they already know 11 what count is supposed to be there? 12 MS. : I've seen that. 13 MR. : And what have you seen? 14 MS. : Well, my experience being a 15 lieutenant, and being in the control center, 16 taking the count, I have seen count slips come 17 down to the control center, and I'm monitoring 18 the camera because I'm physically watching you 19 count. So, if I have your count sheet, and I 20 haven't seen you count yet, I'm discarding it, 21 and I'm calling you on the phone. How do I 22 have your count sheet and you haven't counted 23 yet? 24 MR. : Is that normal procedure as a 25 lieutenant, when you're doing the count from EFTA00116412 61 1 the control room, you pay attention to the 2 monitor, and you watch -? 3 MS. : I could only speak for 4 myself. 5 MR. : So, as your practice. 6 MS. : I do. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : And you watch the C.O.s to 10 make sure that they're doing the counts. 11 MS. : Absolutely. 12 MR. : Which C.O.s have you seen 13 that haven't done that? That haven't done the 14 counts, but send their count slips in. 15 MS. : Pfft. I can't give you exact 16 names because I've been on all of the shifts. 17 MR. : And what happens if, in a 18 situation like that, if you see that, that they 19 didn't do the count, but they send the slip 20 down? What do you do? 21 MS. : I'm pulling. I'm doing a 22 verbal counseling. 23 MR. : Verbal counseling. 24 MS. : Yes. I'm doing a verbal 25 counseling. Basically, listen, don't send me EFTA00116413 62 1 your count slip until you do your count. Next 2 time, I'm going to go to the next step, which 3 is discipline. 4 MR. : And have you ever told them 5 to go back and count? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : And they followed it? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : What is a lieutenant round? 10 You understand it, you just mentioned that, 11 when you do a count -- 12 MR. : In the SHU. What is a 13 lieutenant round in the SHU? 14 MR. : -- yeah. 15 MS. : In the SHU, with the 16 lieutenant rounds, you go up to SHU, as well as 17 every other area, you see if there's anything 18 abnormal going on in the SHU, you're going to 19 ask a question. You know, anything we should 20 know about, anything you got going on up there. 21 You're just making sure that the officers are 22 doing their job for the shift, the inmates are 23 getting their phone calls, if there's any 24 inmates that haven't been showered, who may 25 shower. You're making sure those are done. EFTA00116414 63 1 Normally, when you go in the SHU, you have 2 inmates calling you, once you get there. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. : Once the door open. So, 5 you're going on the ranges and seeing what's 6 going on with the inmates on the ranges. 7 MR. : Now, are you supposed to 8 go from door to door, when your lieutenant does 9 a round, though? Is the lieutenant supposed to 10 do a round just as, like, a C.O. that's working 11 the SHU does a round, go to each cell, to check 12 and see -- 13 MS. : To be honest -- 14 MR. : -- what's going on? 15 MS. : -- I don't think there's 16 nothing in policy stating that we have to go 17 door to door, and see each inmate, but you - 18 most of the time - you will go on a range, I 19 would assume, because you want to see what's 20 going on. With the inmates. Especially since 21 it's the Special Housing. 22 MR. : So, this is where we get 23 a lot of discrepancies. So, most of the 24 lieutenants say absolutely, you have to go door 25 to door, and that's what a round is. A select EFTA00116415 64 1 few of the lieutenants say, like, no, no, no, 2 no, that's not -. It's your discretion, if you 3 do that or not. So, are you kind of more of 4 that, that kind of side of it, it's their 5 discretion? 6 MS. : I'm more of -. 7 MR. : Because they have to sign 8 when they - is it correct - that they have to 9 sign the round sheet -- 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : -- saying they did a 12 round? 13 MS. : So, normally, like myself, I 14 would be on the range, because the round sheets 15 are on the range. So, you have to go on the 16 range to sign the round sheets. 17 MR. : But do you have - but 18 just to go on the range, I guess you don't 19 necessarily have to look in -- 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : -- their window. 22 Correct? 23 MS. : Right. But if you go on, 24 you're going to look door to door. I would 25 think. EFTA00116416 65 1 MR. : But this time, our 2 understanding is the round sheets were actually 3 kept on the officer's desks. On the desk out - 4 . So, not on the range. They all did it right 5 from where the desk was. Do you know if that's 6 the case? 7 MS. : I don't. I don't know. This 8 is the first I'm hearing of it. Because 9 normally, they're at the end of the range. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MS. : On the wall. So, that's 12 going to force you, as a supervisor, to go on 13 each range because you have to go to the end of 14 the range to sign. 15 MR. : Okay. Do you know if 16 there is maybe, MCC didn't have this practice, 17 but do you know, as the BOP, as a lieutenant 18 round that's conducted in the SHU, and that the 19 lieutenant that actually signs the round sheet, 20 saying that they conducted the round in the 21 SHU, do you know if BOP policy says that 22 they're supposed to go from cell, door to door, 23 and that's the reason why they put these sheets 24 at the end of the ranges? 25 MS. : I don't recall if that's what EFTA00116417 66 1 the policy says. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : Yeah. 4 MR. : And just as far as 5 clarification, do you know if BOP policy states 6 where the count sheets, or the round sheets are 7 supposed to be kept? Forget the fact that you 8 have to look at it, but does it state that it 9 should be either kept on the officer's desk, or 10 at the end of the -? 11 MS. : I've never seen 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MS. : -- yeah. I've never seen 14 that policy where it should be kept that. 15 MR. : Okay. That's just practice? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Do you have anything 18 on the rounds and counts? 19 MR. : No. I guess I just, do 20 you think if the lieutenants that did the 21 rounds within the SHU, on August 9th, have any 22 exposure to the fact that Reyes was gone, and 23 should have they - when they did their rounds - 24 should have they known that, hey, this cell is 25 empty, Epstein's down at attorney conference, EFTA00116418 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 and Reyes isn't here, so there's no one in that cell. Should have they been, you know, should have they known -? MS. : Yes. MR. : Okay. MS. : If you knew that on the count slip - I'm sorry - on the court roster that he was WAB, and you see Epstein downstairs, then if you're paying attention, you would just -. That's something you would have asked. Hey, we got a cellmate for him yet? Who he's going with. That type of thing. MR. : Okay. So, those lieutenants that actually did do the rounds in the SHU, on that date, then they do have some fault in this, that Reyes was never replaced? MS. : I'm going to say yes. MR. : Okay. MR. : Anything else on rounds and counts? I'm moving onto cameras. MR. : Perfect. MR. : Okay. When did you learn that the cameras were not working at the MCC? MS. : August 8th. MR. : August 8th. Okay. EFTA00116419 68 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Can you tell us what 3 transpired? 4 MS. : I actually was reviewing the 5 cameras from the SIS office, with one of the 6 associate wardens. We were looking for an 7 inmate, to see what time he was released, a 8 cadre (Phonetic Sp. *00:50:30) inmate. We were 9 looking to see what time he was released 10 because I was trying to backtrack, because I 11 was going to interview the inmate, with an OIG 12 officer, about an incident. And I learned, 13 he's gone. And I said, gone where? Oh, his 14 release date - which, he was scheduled to be 15 released - so, that made me go back to look to 16 see, well, let me see what time they released 17 him. And we were trying to pinpoint when he 18 got released, so we could get in touch with 19 that halfway house. So, we - myself and the 20 agent - was going to go to the halfway house, 21 to interview him. 22 And upon me going back to the cameras, I 23 said, wait a minute, we don't have no cameras. 24 I can't go back. So, of course, I clicked on 25 several cameras, just to see if I could play it EFTA00116420 69 1 back on the cameras, and I noticed the cameras 2 are down. I can't go back and rewind anything. 3 At that time, I called the communications shop, 4 and told them, I don't have no cameras up here. 5 You know, I can't go. I can't play it back. A 6 gentleman came upstairs and said, okay, I'm 7 going to come and check the camera system, 8 which he has the keys for, as well. And he did 9 check it out, and he said, okay, the cameras is 10 not working. I'm going to fix them. I'm going 11 to do overtime or something to that effect. To 12 fix the cameras. At that time, I notified the 13 captain. 14 MR. : Oh, you notified the 15 captain? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : That the cameras were 18 down? 19 MS. 20 And I wrote 21 MR. 22 you please 23 MS. 24 drive - it 25 MR. a That the cameras was down. memo - a memorandum - as well. : Oh, if you have that, can give it to us? : It's - I can't get in my home would be on my home drive. : And when will you be able EFTA00116421 70 1 to get access to that? 2 MS. : I'm out of work. So, I can't 3 access it. 4 MR. : Oh, we have heard that 5 you were back this week. Is that not the case? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Oh. 8 MS. : I'm not back this week. I 9 only came for the interview. I won't be back 10 for maybe, like, another two to three weeks. 11 MR. : When you come back in two 12 or three weeks, could you - I'll send you an 13 email, just as far as, like -- 14 MS. : I was going to say. If you 15 email me where to send it to, yes. 16 MR. : Fantastic. 17 MS. : So, at that point, I did type 18 the memo that the cameras was done. 19 MR. : This is on the 8th? 20 MS. : On the 8th. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : Yes. And I assumed that the 23 gentleman was going to stay and fix the cameras 24 that day. 25 MR. : So, and when you say "the EFTA00116422 71 1 gentleman," are you talking about ? 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : Okay. So, that's the 4 person who came in and checked? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Is it true that he can 7 only obtain access to the camera room, if an 8 SIS employee actually lets him in? 9 MS. : Absolutely not. He has the 10 keys. 11 MR. : At that time, he did? 12 MS. : The first door, which is the 13 steel door with the Folger Adams (Phonetic Sp. 14 *00:53:21), I have to let him into that. 15 MR. : That's what I mean. So, 16 he can't actually get 17 MS. : Right. 18 MR. : -- into the SIS -- 19 MS. : Unless I -- 20 MR. : -- area 21 MS. : -- let him into that part. 22 MR. : Correct. 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : So, he had told you, on 25 the 8th, he was actually going to stay and fix EFTA00116423 72 1 it? 2 MS. : And do overtime to fix it. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : Because I let him into the 5 office, so he can go see what I was telling 6 him, the cameras is down. I can't play back. 7 MR. : Okay. And do you know if that's the first time it was noticed, that 9 those cameras were down? 10 MS. : I can't say that that was the 11 first time that was noticed. 12 MR. : Because our investigation 13 shows that, as early as 7/29/2019, those 14 cameras stopped recording. So, there is about 15 half of the cameras in the institution that 16 were recording, and half that weren't. They 17 were all live monitoring. 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : But did you find anything 20 about that, or do you know anything about that? 21 MS. : No. No. It's not until I 22 was actually in the phone room, with the 23 agents, going through the cameras, that we 24 realized that they stopped recording. 25 MR. : Oh, so, you knew this on EFTA00116424 73 1 the 10th or something, you -- 2 MS. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- realized this 4 MS. : Yeah. It was -- 5 MR. : -- after the 6 investigation? 7 MS. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : So, you had heard, later, 9 that at 7/29 -- 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : -- is when -? Okay. 12 MS. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : So, you know that now, is 14 what you mean by -- 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : -- between 7/29 and 17 August 8th 18 MS. : The 10th. 19 MR. : -- you never -? 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : So, the 8th was the first 24 time you found out? 25 MS. : Yes. EFTA00116425 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 74 1 MR. : Do you remember if, prior 2 to the 8th, you ever were on the camera system, 3 trying to rewind and watch? Because I would 4 think that's something you do kind of 5 regularly. 6 MS. : I can't remember if it was 7 myself, or the SIS Tech , to be honest with 8 you, because normally, if it's an incident and I need some video footage, I'll ask her to pull the footage for me. You know? So, I can see it. So, I can't recall if we had an incident where we need to pull any camera footage. MR. : Okay. So, you don't remember if there was footage before that. MS. : No. MR. : Was there a Tech §§§, or or something like that? : Phone monitor. : He was on -- : Yeah. III was the phone which is a regular correctional MS. MR. MS. monitor, officers. MR. tech? MS. Oh, so, he's not an SIS No. Hmm-mm. EFTA00116426 1 MR. 2 work in the 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 MS. 6 quarter, to 7 MR. 8 MS. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 : All right. But would he SIS room? In the phone room. : Okay. He would be assigned, for the the phone room. : That's in the SIS office? It's not in my office, but it's a part of SIS. The phone room. It's kind of, like, next door to SIS. MR. : Is that the room where the camera servers are located? MS. : Yes. MR. : Okay. So, does he also need someone from SIS to let him in, to be able to do phone monitors? MS. : No. MR. : How does he get in and out? MS. : He has the phone monitor keys, half the keyring for him to get into the door. MR. : To get into -- MS. : I'm sorry. The key. MR. : -- the primary SIS area? EFTA00116427 76 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. So, do you know if 3 he was working on the 9th? 4 MS. : I don't know if he was 5 working because he hadn't been in the phone 6 room for some -- 7 MR. : Would he be listed on the 8 -? 9 MS. let me look. Because they 10 were actually pulling him every day, re- 11 assigning him to different posts. So, he is 12 working, but they re-assigned him to another 13 post. 14 MR. : Okay. So, he wasn't - on 15 the 9th - he wasn't actually working? 16 MS. : If you see three 17 you'll see him there. 18 MR. : And would that be because 19 there was no SIS tech or lieutenant to allow 20 him into that room? 21 MS. : No. It would be because they 22 were short-staffed. 23 MR. : Okay 24 MS. : And they just re-assigned him 25 to another post. EFTA00116428 77 1 MR. : Okay. So, if says 2 that he wasn't able to fix the cameras on the 3 8th because he didn't have the proper 4 equipment, and then he couldn't gain access on 5 the 9th. Does that make sense? He wasn't able 6 to get in on the 9th because neither you or the 7 tech were here. 8 MS. : He would be able to get in 9 because my keys don't go home with me. He 10 would have just had to ask the captain for 11 access to the SIS keys, and he would have been 12 able to go into the office. 13 MR. : And like you said, the 14 captain actually knew that the cameras were 15 down? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And you are positive of 18 that? 19 MS. : I'm positive. 20 MR. : Did you have a verbal 21 conversation with him about it? 22 MS. : I had a verbal conversation. 23 MR. : And can you recall what 24 that conversation entailed? 25 MS. : I remember stepping to his EFTA00116429 78 1 office, which was right next door to mine, and 2 notifying him that the cameras was down, that 3 I'm trying to go back and look at the footage, 4 and I can't. Actually, I had one of the 5 associate wardens with me, as well. Who 6 happens to be his supervisor, so. 7 MR. : Who was that? 8 MS. : Associate Warden 9 MR. was there? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : It was me and her together, 13 looking at the cameras. 14 MR. : Okay. So, and it wasn't 15 , it was actually 16 MS. : No. It was me and AW 17 MR. : And that was with Captain 18 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. So then, the two 21 of them knew that the cameras were down? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : All right. And do you 24 know if they had any conversations with 25 about a need to get them back up? EFTA00116430 79 1 MS. : I don't know if they had a 2 separate conversation, but when I called Mr. 3 over to radio, Ms. was still 4 standing there with me in the office. And she 5 was there with me when he came up to check, 6 because we thought it was something that maybe 7 he can just go in, and it allow us to go to the 8 camera, and look for what we were looking for. 9 MR. : And when he mentioned the 10 whole I'll stay overtime, was she there when - 11 was there - when he mentioned that he 12 would stay to work overtime? 13 MS. : I can't remember because I 14 know he had to get in touch with his boss 15 first. 16 MR. : Oh, okay. So -- 17 MS. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- so, told us 19 that he was approved to work overtime on 20 Saturday, to come in on Saturday and work. Do 21 you know who he would have contacted, in order 22 to get that approval to work overtime? 23 MS. : I don't know. I would assume 24 his boss, which was Mr. 25 MR. : Now, is out, and EFTA00116431 80 1 he has acting in his place, and 2 and both say, he didn't 3 talk to me about working overtime. Is there 4 anyone else that he would have been -? Well, 5 because you said that he told you he was going 6 to work overtime. 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Would you be an approving 9 official for that? 10 MS. : No. 11 MR. : Would be an 12 approving official, though? 13 MS. : I'm not sure if she was over 14 facilities, that department. So, I'm - no - 15 I'm not sure. 16 MR. : Okay. So, how did he 17 know he would be able to work overtime to fix 18 it? 19 MS. : I don't know. 20 MR. : You don't know? He just 21 said I'll work overtime. 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So, I'm assuming 24 this was some time prior to 2:00 p.m. on the 25 8th, that you learned of this incident, since EFTA00116432 81 typically ends at 2:00 p.m.? : Yeah. It was a little after : Okay. And that was the again, on the 8th was the first that out the cameras -- 7 : Yes. 8 : -- were down? Do you 9 know if there is anyway anyone could have 10 tampered with that system, to intentionally 11 take the cameras offline? 12 MS. : I don't know. I don't know 13 because nobody normally goes into - with the 14 service are - besides him. Or there's one more 15 communication tech, Mr. 16 MR. : Was he there, though, at 17 the time? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : So -- 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : -- it was just - at the 22 time - it was only . Correct? 23 MS. : Yes. It was just 24 MR. : So, who would have had 25 access to that server room? In the MCC as a 1 his shift 2 MS. 3 1:00 p.m. 4 MR. 5 8th. But 6 you found MS. MR. EFTA00116433 82 1 whole, who could have had access to that server 2 room, and potentially taken it offline? 3 MS. : I don't know who would 4 intentionally take it off, but I can tell you 5 the access would have been us, from the SIS 6 shop. Hmm. The comm shop, which is Mr. 7 and Mr. . And I'm not sure if their key - 8 if that key is on, in the other key ring. 9 MR. : So, is it really only the 10 two of you, then, with SIS, then also the phone 11 monitor individual, III. Is it igg or ? 12 MS. : =. 13 MR. : Is that ? 14 MS. : . 15 MR. : Just . 16 MS. : I don't think Mr. III had the 17 key on his ring because, if I needed to go, my 18 ink cartridges for my printer and stuff was in 19 there, as well. So, I would always lock the 20 door back, because we don't allow an officer to 21 just walk where the server is at. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : So - 24 MR. : So, the server, actually, 25 was in a locked door? EFTA00116434 83 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : So, really, III didn't 3 have access to it? 4 MS. : Right. 5 MR. : But the tech would have? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : Yes. She would. 9 MR. : So, yourself, the tech, 10 and 11 MS. 12 MR. : -- were really the only 13 three people? 14 MS. : Mr. 15 MR. : Well, wasn't here 16 at the time, though. Correct? 17 MS. : Probably Mr. . I think 18 it's on his key ring. 19 MR. : But - but just to clear 20 that up - was not -- 21 MS. : Okay. 22 MR. : wasn't here at 23 the time, though? 24 MS. : Okay. 25 MR. : Is that right? EFTA00116435 84 1 MS. : I -- 2 MR. : Oh, you don't know? 3 MS. : -- I really don't know. 4 MR. : Oh, okay. No. That's 5 why I was asking you. 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : My understanding -- 8 MS. : I don't know. 9 MR. : -- was that was 10 the only tech at the time. 11 MS. : Okay. I don't know if 12 was in the building, but I know is who I 13 dealt with at the time. 14 MR. : Okay. And then, 15 would have? 16 MS. : I think it may be on Mr. 17 key because he's the facilities 18 manager. But again, I'm not sure what keys 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 they have. MR. : What about the captain? MS. : I don't know. MR. : Now, when you -- MS. keyrings. MR. : I : don't know what's on his -- now, you say you don't EFTA00116436 85 1 ever leave the institution with these keys, did 2 you give them to the captain, or where are the 3 keys? 4 MS. : No. They're located in the 5 control center, behind a locked box. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : So, I have to give them the 8 key to open my locked box in order for me to 9 retrieve my SIS keys. 10 MR. : Okay. And then, does 11 anybody else have that key, to open your locked 12 box, to get those keys? 13 MS. : No. 14 MR. : What are -? You said the 15 captain does, though? I thought you said he 16 could have gone to the captain to get the keys. 17 MR. : He can't get into my 18 locked box. He has his own locked box. 19 MR. : So, how would -. I think 20 you -. I thought you said that the captain 21 could have allowed to get in -? 22 MS. : He would have had them 23 allowed to break the glass, and get my key out. 24 MR. : They would have had to -- 25 MS. : If it was another -- EFTA00116437 86 1 MR. : -- actually break it? 2 MS. : -- they would have to 3 actually break the keys. Myself, the SIS tech, 4 all of our keys are in a locked box. So, if 5 it's an emergency, you would have to break the 6 glass to retrieve our keys. 7 MR. : And in this case, you 8 believe that would be an emergency, that they 9 were to break the glass to fix the cameras on 10 the 9th? 11 MS. : Normally, yes. 12 MR. : So, you think that that 13 would have been appropriate action, to break 14 it? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. And then, the 17 captain does not actually have a key to get 18 into the SIS office, though? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : Does anyone else? 21 or -? 22 MS. : No. I think it's only on the 23 SIS staff, the phone monitor, the SIA, which we 24 didn't have one at the time. 25 MR. : Okay. But you're certain EFTA00116438 87 1 that and , on the 8th, were aware 2 that there was a camera issue, and not 3 recording? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Do you know if they 6 notified the warden? 7 MS. : I don't recall. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : Because I notified the 10 warden. And he seemed a little -- 11 MR. : Notified the warden, 12 when? 13 MS. : -- on the 10th. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : On the 10th. Once I came in, 16 once the incident happened. And me and him was 17 having a conversation, and he was saying, and 18 there's no cameras working, and I said, what do 19 you mean there's no cameras working? I said, 20 was supposed to fix the cameras on the 21 8th, and, you know, he was surprised, like, 22 what are you talking about? And I said, the 23 cameras went down on the 8th. Warden and I 24 notified that the cameras was down. And 25 I said, I wrote a memo. EFTA00116439 88 1 MR. : And what happened with 2 your memo? Who gets that memo? 3 MS. : My memo, I usually give it to 4 the captain. 5 MR. : Okay. And do you know, 6 in this case, did you give it to the captain? 7 MS. : I did give it to him. I 8 might have emailed it, as well, to the -. I 9 would have to look at my email. I might have 10 emailed it, as well. 11 MR. : And would have you -? 12 MS. : And I might have emailed it 13 to Again, I can't remember -- 14 MR. : Can you -- 15 MS. : -- exactly who I sent it to 16 MR. : -- you know, when you 17 come in, can you check your sent box, and see 18 if on the - you would have done this on the 19 8th, though? 20 MS. : It would have been on the 21 8th. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : Yes, 24 MR. : So, you would have - it 25 sounds, like, potentially - hand-delivered to EFTA00116440 89 1 him? 2 MS. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : And emailed, or both? Or 4 I mean, one or the other? 5 MS. : Normally, because he's next 6 door, I would hand deliver him stuff. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : To be honest. And sometime, 9 I would email it to him if his door is closed, 10 and I don't see him. Or don't know if I'm 11 going to see him before I leave. 12 MR. : Okay. But you are 13 positive, on the 8th, you gave him that memo, 14 one way or the other? 15 MS. : Yeah. I'm almost - though, 16 I'm not going to say 100 percent sure - but I 17 know I verbally told him that the cameras was 18 down. 19 MR. : Are your 100 percent sure 20 that there was a memo, though? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : But you may - when you 23 say you're not 100 percent sure - when else 24 would have you potentially done that memo? 25 MS. : No. I did the memo on the EFTA00116441 90 1 8th. 2 MR. : Oh. So, that's where, 3 when you say you're not 100 percent sure -- 4 MS. : If I -- 5 MR. : -- right, you're not -- 6 MS. : emailed it to him, I'm 7 saying to you. 8 MR. : -- but you're 100 percent 9 sure you provided it to him? 10 MS. : Yes. And I notified him, 11 word of mouth, that the cameras was down. 12 MR. : Okay, and that - sorry - 13 that's where I just want to make sure I'm 14 clearing that up. So, you know for a fact you 15 gave him that memo. You just don't know if you 16 gave it to him, either by hand -- 17 MS. : Or email. 18 MR. : -- or email. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : But it's definitely, he 23 got it? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Perfect. Okay. But EFTA00116442 91 1 regardless, both and knew 2 MS. : That the cameras -- 3 MR. : -- verbally, and 4 knew specifically, because she was -- 5 MS. : Because she was with me. 6 MR. : -- involved. 7 MS. : Right. She was with me. 8 Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And was she 10 involved, at all, with those discussions with 11 ? 12 MS. : I can't remember if she 13 stayed with me. I think she walked away. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : Because we couldn't get what 16 we needed, as far as footage. 17 MR. : Were they both under the 18 impression that was actually working on 19 the camera system? 20 MS. : Hmm. 21 MR. : Like, did they ask, well, 22 are you going to take care of this, or anything 23 like that? 24 MS. : No. I don't remember them 25 speaking to . I just know -- EFTA00116443 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 MR. 2 spoke with 3 situation, 4 said he'll 5 that? 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 them that, MS. 92 : No. When you verbally , though, and about the did you say, I notified , he take care of it, or anything like : Yes. Yes. : Okay. So, you did tell that he would be fixing it. : Yeah. Well, she was on the phone -. She was standing next to me when I was on the phone, talking to Mr. MR. : Okay. MS. : Mm-hmm. MR. : What about the captain, though? Did he know? MS. : No. He wasn't near me. MR. : Did he ask, like, is going to fix it, or anything like that? No. He didn't -- : Did he say anything? MS. MR. Well, MS. MR. to you MS. what -- : -- he didn't ask. : -- what was his response telling him that the cameras were down? : He asked me, did I notify EFTA00116444 93 1 them, and I said, yes. 2 MR. : That was my question. 3 I'm sorry. 4 MS. : Okay. 5 MR. : So -- 6 MS. : I apologize. 7 MR. : -- so, he did know that 8 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- was notified? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 13 MR. : Was the captain surprised the 14 cameras were down? 15 MS. : I don't know if he was 16 surprised because it's not, like, it's not 17 normal. Sometimes, they do go down. You know? 18 It's our job to notify who we need to notify to 19 bring them back up. But -. 20 MR. : Do you recall his reaction? 21 Like, did he state, oh, yeah, it must be fixed 22 today? Make sure takes care of it. 23 What was his exact reaction to that 24 notification? 25 MS. : I can't recall. EFTA00116445 94 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MS. : I can't recall. 3 MR. : And did ever come 4 back and tell you that he couldn't fix it that 5 day, on the 8th? 6 MS. : No. He told me that on the 7 10th. 8 MR. : What did he tell you on 9 the 10th? 10 MS. : Once I walked into the 11 Special Housing area on the 10th, he was there. 12 I don't know if he was working that day. But 13 he was there, and when the door opened, you 14 know, my response was, well, what happened to 15 the cameras? And he said, oh, that's what I'm 16 here for today. Which was two days later. I'm 17 here today to fix it. But I guess they pulled 18 him, and put him on the post, or something to 19 that effect. And I said, but you told me you 20 was going to fix them on the 8th. And he was, 21 like, I couldn't fix them on the 8th. I can't 22 remember why he said he couldn't. But I think 23 he responded to me before I could even ask the 24 question, once he saw me because I was a little 25 taken back that the cameras were down. Because EFTA00116446 95 1 I assumed they was going to be fixed on the 2 8th. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Can I ask you, when you guys 5 were - you and AW - were reviewing 6 footage, and you realized it wasn't working, 7 you called . What was reaction 8 to finding out the cameras were not working? 9 MS. : He said he was going to come 10 down and take a look at it. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Did he mention it was an ongoing - it was already an issue, he was aware of it, or was that the first he was hearing about it? Do you recall? MS. : No. He didn't -- MR. : No? MS. : -- he didn't say. He just said, okay, I'm going to come take a look at it. MR. : And then, he came down, both of you guys were in the room, and he tried to MS. : No. I wasn't in there with him. I just opened the door so he could get in. And he went in, and he came back, and he EFTA00116447 96 1 said, yeah, they're not recording, and he made 2 a phone call, or he walked away one, and he 3 said, I'm going to stay and do overtime, 4 tonight. 5 MR. : And he did specifically 6 say "tonight"? 7 MS. : Yes. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And if he did stay, stay 10 overtime, that would be on his webTA? 11 MR. : Well -- 12 MS. : It should be. 13 MR. : It should be. 14 MR. : -- well, no, we know he 15 didn't. But -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- as far as, if both you 19 and the other SIS tech left, would he have been 20 able to still stay in, on the 8th, in the 21 camera room, to be able to work on it? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Yes. Because it's been times 25 that he needed to do work, and I needed to go EFTA00116448 97 1 home. And the captain would say, okay, well, 2 leave your keys with me, you know, so he could 3 have access. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : To the room. 6 MR. : So, when you left that 7 day, did you check back in with at all, 8 to say, like -- 9 MS. : I sure didn't. 10 MR. : -- hey. You did not? 11 MS. : I didn't. 12 MR. : Okay. And do you know 13 what he did after you told him I'm going to 14 take care of? Do you know what he did? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : No. Did he stay in the 17 room, though? Did he -? 18 MS. : No. He left out the room. 19 He left out the room. 20 MR. : All right. And then, did 21 you leave before the other tech, on the 8th? 22 MS. : I would have left probably 23 after her, because she leaves at 2:00. 24 MR. : Uh-huh. What time? 25 MS. : I can't remember what EFTA00116449 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR. 20 administrative feature. Nice Vision is the 21 camera -- 22 MS. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- system, 24 administrative feature is 25 Do you recall that? happened that day. MR. : And what -? MS. : Normally, I'm there between 2:00 -. More closer to 3:00, I'm leaving. So. MR. : Okay. So, if you both left, though, at 2:00 or 3:00, and he said he was coming back that day to fix it, how would have he done that? MS. : Because I would have spoken to the captain and said, hey, needs to get in the com room. MR. : Do you remember, did that conversation occur? MS. : I honestly don't remember. MR. : Okay. You don't remember. MS. MR. No. : Okay. Nice Vision has that right? That called Supervision. EFTA00116450 99 1 MS. : Hmm. 2 MR. : Well -. 3 MR. : There was a couple 4 different 5 MR. : Name 6 MR. : -- names, for different 7 applications, but there is one application 8 called Supervision, and that you might be able 9 to log into Supervision and see if the recorder 10 errors are actually recording. Do you know if 11 you got access to that? 12 MS. : No. I have - mine is SIS 13 lieutenant access, so. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Who had administrative access 16 to the camera system? 17 MS. : Meaning that Supervision? 18 MR. : Supervision. Who could go 19 in, control the cameras, or take cameras 20 offline? And mess with the cameras. 21 MS. : I don't know. I would say 22 computer services have access, and probably, I 23 would say, facilities managers should have 24 Supervision access. 25 MR. : But not the SIS Shop? EFTA00116451 100 1 MS. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So -- 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : -- and is 6 basically who you're saying? 7 MS. : I don't know. I don't even 8 know if would have Supervision access 9 because -. I don't know. I would think, if 10 you say Supervision, it would be upper -- 11 MR. : Yeah. Supervision 12 doesn't mean super -. It's not a title for, 13 like, somebody in the -. It's a title for the 14 app. So, like, there's an app that says, like, 15 you know, these people are granted access to be 16 able to review and rewind, but then there's 17 another app -- 18 MS. : Oh. 19 MR. : -- that allows you to 20 actually check to see if things are running 21 properly, and recording, and it's just called 22 23 24 25 Supervision. MS. MR. : Oh, : okay. That MS. : Then that doesn't mean would be -- EFTA00116452 101 1 MR. : -- that you're a 2 supervisor. 3 MS. : -- that would be - I would 4 say - that would be , because that's his 5 area, the cameras. 6 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 7 anybody else would have the ability to do 8 things like that, to take, you know, recorders 9 on or offline, or to at least check their 10 status with the camera system? 11 MS. : I don't know. If it is, it 12 would be facilities shop. 13 MR. : So, but primarily, 14 would be the person? 15 MS. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Not you, though? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : And in no way, while you 21 were -. Although, the only thing that would be 22 able to tip you off, if things weren't 23 recording, is if you started trying to rewind, 24 and it wasn't rewinding. 25 MS. : If I tried to rewind, it EFTA00116453 102 1 wouldn't rewind. Or if they were red. It 2 would have, like, a red X on a camera. I know 3 that it's a problem, even if it's not working 4 at all. Or something is wrong with it. 5 MR. : Did that - on the 8th, 6 when you were looking - were there any red X's? 7 MS. : I don't recall if -. Because 8 it's a lot of cameras, and they're in different 9 places. So, I don't recall there being a red 10 X. 11 MR. : But just to -- 12 MS. : On any of them. 13 MR. : -- circle back. What 14 tipped you off was with you and trying to 15 go back and review? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : And that's where you said 18 -- 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : -- why can't I do it? 21 MS. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Gotcha. 23 MR. : And prior to that day, you 24 don't recall when the last time you guys tried 25 to review it was, right? EFTA00116454 103 1 MS : No. I don't recall. 2 MR. : Okay. So, but it had been a 3 little bit. It had been a little while? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. Anything else on the 6 cameras? 7 MR. : I think that's all. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That's great information, 10 that we didn't know that before. I didn't know 11 that that's how we found out that the cameras 12 were offline -- 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- was basically your 15 review. How often should have been 16 going in to check those servers to make sure 17 that they were online? 18 MS. : Daily. 19 MR. : So then, would you know 20 if he was? 21 MS. : I can't say he was checking 22 daily. I know that he was up there quite 23 often. But I can't even say that he was 24 checking the cameras because, one I let him in, 25 to do whatever he's doing with the servers, you EFTA00116455 104 1 know, I wasn't standing there, you know, saying 2 what are you doing, or, so -- 3 MR. : And I know we're talk -- 4 MS. : -- but daily, they should 5 have checked. 6 MR. : -- I know we're talking a 7 long time ago now, but do you remember, prior 8 to the 8th, if he was in -? Because again, I 9 think the information that we have suggests 10 that the camera servers went down on the actual 11 July 29th -- 12 MS. : Hmm. 13 MR. : -- of 2019. So, there 14 is, like, almost a - more than a -- 15 MS. : Week. 16 MR. : -- week -- 17 MS. : Yeah. Yeah. 18 MR. : -- do you know if he was 19 actually going in, at that time, for that week 20 period, checking in on the servers at all, at 21 this -? 22 MS. : I know he entered the area. 23 But I don't know if he checked the servers 24 while he were back there. But I know he was 25 entering the area. EFTA00116456 105 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : What else is in that area? 3 MS. : Just the servers in there. 4 And ink cartridges. At the top. 5 MR. : And that's on the third 6 floor? 7 MS. : It's on the third floor. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then, nothing else is 10 stored. Is there evidence stored in there? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : For some reason, we were 13 under the impression that SIS stored evidence 14 there. 15 MS. : There's no evidence in there. 16 It's some old file cabinets from, maybe before 17 I was born. 18 MR. : And I think said 19 that there was maybe, it's like a hallway, and 20 there's, like, some evidence, some old 21 evidence, or evidence there. 22 MS. : Not where the servers are. 23 But it's some file cabinets, where the servers 24 are. And I think that's maybe some archive SIS 25 cases from -- EFTA00116457 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 MR. : Okay. MR. : Okay. MS. : -- a long time ago. MR. : So, next topic? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Okay. So, what was understanding about why Epstein was assigned cell? Were you aware that 106 your not in his he was - 9 when they found him - and he was not in the 10 cell that he was assigned to in the system? 11 MS. : No. I learned that later on, 12 that -- 13 MR. : What did you learn? 14 MS. : -- that he was keyed to one 15 cell, but he was actually living in another 16 cell. So, I don't know where they changed his 17 cell at. 18 MR. : And is this because the cell 19 rotations that happen in the SHU? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : And who would have been 22 responsible to make sure that this, once the 23 cell rotation happened -. 24 MR. : That's not the reason. 25 So, let's not go down that path. So, did you EFTA00116458 107 1 learn how that happened? How he was keyed into 2 one, and not in another? 3 MS. : No. 4 MR. : No? Okay. Did you hear 5 -? Does this refresh your memory at all, like, 6 he was initially placed into one cell, when he 7 came back from suicide watch, around July 30th, 8 but then, the CPAP machine didn't actually 9 reach into there, so they had to switch him to 10 another? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : No? So, you never heard 13 anything about that? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 16 MR. : So - 17 MR. : Who would have been 18 responsible for making those changes in the 19 system, to make sure that he's in the actual 20 cell where he's supposed to be there? 21 MS. : Normally, the SHU OIC make 22 the changes. 23 MR. : So, it wouldn't be the 24 lieutenant? It would be the OIC? 25 MS. : Yeah. It would be the OIC. EFTA00116459 108 1 MR. : Okay. And so, would that 2 be -? Is there an OIC for each shift, or is 3 there one overall OIC? 4 MS. : There is one for each shift. 5 MR. : Okay. So, on that note, 6 is it more for, like, the morning watch, the 7 day watch, or the evening watch that would be 8 responsible for that change? 9 MS. : No. Whatever shift he was 10 moved on, that OIC should have made the change. 11 MR. : Okay. Okay. And at this 12 point, if the change wasn't made, is there a 13 way for us to know when that occurred? When 14 they actually moved him from one cell to 15 another cell? 16 MS. : No. The only way you would 17 know is to rely on the cameras to, you know, 18 rewind and see. 19 MR. : To see, you know 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- when that actually 22 happened. But the cameras weren't actually 23 working -- 24 MS. : Right. 25 MR. : -- from 7/29, and this EFTA00116460 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 happened on 2 point? 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 MS. 6 MR. 7 MR. 8 MR. MR. 109 7/30. There's no way, at this they supposed MS. : MR. MS. : have to do a three or five officer. Per cell searches MR. : actual cells searching? MS. : Actual cell searches. MR. : And is that five -? MS. : With the exception of midnight shift. They usually do the areas. No. : Okay. No. : Go ahead. Next level? : Sure. Cell searches. How often are to do cell searches in the SHU? You're taking me back-back. : Yeah. There is - I want to say they set amount. I don't know if it's . It was five when I was an shift. They should be random ▪ Is it of the general area, or that they're supposed to be the general EFTA00116461 110 1 MR. : But there should have been 2 cell searches done, by the C.O.s, at least five 3 times? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Per shift? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : On day watch 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- and night watch? 10 MS. : No. On day watch -- 11 MR. : Day watch and evening -- 12 MS. : -- an evening watch. 13 MR. : -- watch. 14 MR. : All right. Well, 15 evening. Evening watch, right? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : So, if they're doing 18 those, is it just as important to log those 19 searches into the system? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : So, if there is no cell 22 searches actually being logged into the system, 23 on those dates, is that a problem? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay And would you EFTA00116462 1 consider that, 2 MS. : 3 MR. 4 the system, is 5 happened? 6 MS. : 7 MR. 8 MR. : 111 like, a policy violation? Yes. : If it's not logged into it almost as if they never Yes. : Go ahead. That's all I have. I know 9 you looked into the monitor, the phone call 10 that Epstein made the night before, on August 11 9th, right? And what is your understanding of 12 what transpired? Like, how did he make that 13 phone call? 14 MS. : My understanding is that his 15 unit manager gave him the phone call. On an 16 unsecured line. He placed Epstein in the 17 shower area - that's what my understanding - 18 and he plugged the phone into an unsecured 19 line, and gave him a phone call. 20 MR. : And based on what we - based 21 on the interviews - it looks like Epstein asked 22 to speak to his mother. 23 MS. : Right. 24 MR. : And he asked for, his pack 25 and PIN was not set up. EFTA00116463 112 1 MR. : Well, let's ask her. 2 What is your understanding of what happened? 3 MS. : That was my understanding, 4 that he made a phone call to his mother. 5 MR. : Have you learned anything 6 since then? 7 MS. : No. Well, I did learn that 8 his mother was deceased on the 10th. 9 MR. : And do you know who he 10 actually called? 11 MS. : I don't. I don't. I 12 actually was present when we did get the 13 number, and the NYPD guy called the number 14 back, but I don't know who it was. 15 MR. : He actually dialed the 16 phone? 17 MS. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : To check to -? Rather 19 than doing a search, he called the number that 20 they -- 21 MS. : I think he did a search. 22 MR. : -- okay. 23 MS. : I think he did a search. And 24 he called the number. 25 MR. : From here? At the BOP? EFTA00116464 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 MS. 2 have called 3 MR. 4 MS. 5 he called 6 MR. 7 presence? 8 MS. there. MR. phones MS. from 113 No. I want to say he might from his phone he had. : He had a cell phone? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to say his phone. : Was this in your Yeah. It was. Yeah. I was : Did they bring their cell into the institution? : We had - we got approval for them to bring their phones in, because they was doing an investigation. MR. : Oh, okay. MS. : Yes. MR. : And do you know if someone answered when he called? MS. : I want to say a female answered, but hung up. MR. : Okay. Did he identify himself? MS. : I can't remember. MR. : Okay. MS. : I can't remember. EFTA00116465 114 1 MR. : And is that the same 2 person, though, that -- 3 MR. : You think? 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : -- NYPD 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- detective. 8 MS. : Because - yes - it was only 9 one NYPD at the time. 10 MR. : Okay. And it's 11 . ? 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : I think it was . 15 MR. : Okay. Great. Who did 16 you say that actually provided him the phone 17 call? 18 MS. : His unit manager. 19 MR. : And who was that? 20 MS. : His name is 22 MR. : And what is your 23 understanding of what should have transpired if 24 he gave him that phone call? How should have 25 that process worked? EFTA00116466 115 1 MS. : If he gave him a phone call, 2 it should have been on a secure line. Meaning, 3 the inmate's line. Because when it's on the 4 inmate line, you can listen to the phone call. 5 You know, go back. You can monitor it live. 6 And it should have been recorded in the logbook 7 that he received the phone call to the number 8 he received the phone call to. 9 MR. : And should have he sat 10 there with him, while the call was being 11 placed? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : All right. And do you 14 know anything about there not being a logbook 15 in the SHU, for those telephone calls? 16 MS. : I know it was -. We were 17 looking for logbooks. I can't remember if that 18 book was one of them, to be honest with you, 19 because I collected so many. So, I can't 20 remember if that actual book was missing. 21 MR. : Okay. And do you know if 22 actually did monitor the call, and log 23 it? 24 MS. : I don't know. 25 MR. : You don't know if he did EFTA00116467 116 1 or not? 2 MS. : I don't know. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you know 4 anything -? Did your investigation reveal 5 anything that transpired during that call? 6 MS. : No. I don't know. 7 MR. : No. So, you never found 8 anything more? 9 MS. : I never found anything more. 10 MR. : How serious of a 11 violation do you consider it, if the inmate had 12 - in this specific instance - both provided 13 Epstein the phone call, and put him in the G- 14 tier shower, walked away, and not only walked 15 away, but left the unit? And the inmate could 16 then talk by himself. Is that a pretty 17 significant thing, or -? 18 MS. : It is. Because it was on a - 19 again - it was on an unsecured line. So, you 20 know, you can't get the recording back, even if 21 you an emergency and you needed to step away 22 for a minute, you know, you still can go and 23 listen back to that phone call, to see if 24 anything transpired. 25 MR. : Sure. And why is it? Is EFTA00116468 117 1 it, like, a potential danger to other inmates 2 in the facility, by being able to provide 3 inmates these unsecured phone calls? 4 MS. : I would say yes. 5 MR. : So, it's a security 6 matter? 7 MS. : It's a security issue. 8 MR. : Okay. And what is your 9 opinion on if, when - Epstein says he's 10 calling his mother, and Mr. calls the 11 number that he gives him, which we don't have 12 the number for at the time, there's no list, 13 and a male answers the phone. And then, he 14 provides Epstein with that call. What is your 15 thoughts on that as an SIS lieutenant? 16 MS. : Okay. Can I -? Just 17 rephrase it. He gave him the phone call, and a 18 male answered the phone call. 19 MR. : So, Epstein says, I'm 20 calling my mother. This is the number. He 21 calls the number. Mr. says a male 22 answers the phone. And then provides the phone 23 to Epstein. 24 MS. : At that point, I wouldn't 25 have provided the phone to Epstein. I would EFTA00116469 118 1 have hung the call up. 2 MR. : Right. So, is that also 3 a pretty bad security violation? 4 MS. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Should he have verified who 7 was on the phone? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : Should he have asked for a 10 name? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Was there a logbook, at that 13 point, in the SHU? 14 MS. : I don't know. I don't know 15 MR. : Is there something called 16 endogen (Phonetic Sp. •01:24:39) inmates? 17 Inmates. Now, if -- 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : -- can you -? 20 MR. : What does that mean? 21 MR. : Yeah. What does that mean? 22 MS. : Endogen is inmates that, you 23 know, don't have any money on their accounts. 24 They don't have no type of resources. No type 25 of money coming in, through family members, or EFTA00116470 119 1 anything to that effect. 2 MR. : Now, if an endogen inmate 3 wanted to make a phone call, what is the 4 procedure for that? 5 MS. : I'm not too sure how unit 6 team deal with endogen inmate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MS. : I'm not too sure. 9 MR. : Is it - have you ever heard 10 the procedure that, if an inmate doesn't any 11 money in the pack and PIN, they can't make any 12 phone calls, the unit team sometimes allows 13 them to make a phone call on the legal line? 14 MS. : I've never heard of that. 15 MR. : Regardless, if an inmate 16 is speaking on the legal line, it's always 17 supposed to be -- 18 MS. : A legal -- 19 MS. : -- monitored? 20 MS. : -- a legal phone call. Yes. 21 MR. : Where if it's in this 22 case, that an inmate that doesn't actually have 23 money, if they do allow it, they have to 24 monitor it. Correct? They have to sit there 25 and listen to it with them? EFTA00116471 120 1 MS. : They do, but they shouldn't 2 allow it because it's a legal line. 3 MR. : Okay. So, really, the 4 legal line is only supposed to be -- 5 MS. : Only for legal. 6 MR. : -- okay. So, not only 7 was this not done properly, they should have 8 never provided Epstein a call from the legal 9 line, is what you're saying? 10 MS. : Right. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Is there another line, or, 13 like, a pack and PIN set up to utilize for 14 inmates that don't have any money, that want to 15 make calls? Like, you know how pack and PINs 16 are assigned to each inmate. Right? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Now, if it's an endogen 19 inmate, and they wanted to make a phone call 20 that's not legal, is there a special code that 21 the unit team can use? 22 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 23 MR. : And if the captain, if there 24 was a conversation between the captain and the 25 unit, Nathaniel , and the captain EFTA00116472 121 1 instructed him to monitor it, and log the call, 2 what does that mean to you? 3 MS. : That mean you should be 4 standing there, listening to the phone call. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MS. : And you should be recording 7 it in the logbook. 8 MR. : All right. Anything else on 9 that? 10 MR. : Nope. 11 MR. : Now, let's talk about August 12 10th. Right? When did you find out about Mr. 13 Epstein's death? 14 MS. : Maybe about 6:00 in the 15 morning. I got a call at home. I got a call 16 at home, by the captain called me. 17 MR. : Captain ? 18 MS. : Captain called me. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MS. : And he said we have an 21 emergency. I need you to come up to the 22 institution. And I said, okay. What happened? 23 You know, I'm getting up now. And he said, 24 it's Epstein again. And I said, okay. What 25 happened? You know, with Epstein. And he EFTA00116473 122 1 said, Epstein tried to kill himself. So, I 2 said, okay. I got dressed, and I came up to 3 the institution. It's not until maybe I was 4 here maybe about 45 minutes, when I learned 5 that he was deceased, and then, everybody said, 6 wait, you didn't know? And I said, no, because 7 I heard tried. So, and I remember saying, did 8 he go to the hospital because try mean, okay, 9 did we take him here? And when I got to there, 10 like, no, he's in the hospital. Like, he's 11 deceased, and I was, like, oh. Okay. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. So, when -. 13 MR. : Do you know if he was 14 alive when the first officer responded to him? 15 MS. : Oh, I don't know. 16 MR. : Do you have anything, any 17 investigative steps that you took reveal 18 anything about that? Like, life-saving 19 measures, like, to keep him alive versus bring 20 him back? 21 MS. : I don't know. Just 22 overhearing that they did some CPR measures. 23 But I don't really know who did what. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : When you arrived at the EFTA00116474 123 1 facility, around what time was it, 2 approximately? 3 MS. : Maybe, I know it was before 4 7:30. 5 MR. : And was he already gone, at 6 that point? 7 MS. : Yes. He was already gone. 8 MR. : And when you came in, what is 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MR. : On -- 24 MR. -- sorry. 25 MR. : -- and on the count the first step you did? MS. : I just started gathering evidence. You know -? MR. : Did you go up to the SHU? MS. : Yes. I went up to the SHU to take whatever logbooks that was up there, and that I could find. I went to the control center to look for the count slips, from the night before, the 9th and the 10th. The warden had took some of the count slips. He beat me to the punch. So, he did give me what he took because it was -. Everybody was just trying to gather up evidence, just -. MR. : We're just trying to get a EFTA00116475 124 1 slips, did you find anything out about the 2 counts that were conducted, or not conducted, 3 that night? 4 MS. : On the count slips, I just 5 seen that they were filled out. They were 6 filled out. And I think, I want to say the 7 10th was missing. Because everybody would run 8 around, looking for the 10th count slip. I 9 can't remember what time. I think the 3:00 and 10 the 5:00, they were looking for. On the count 11 slips. 12 MR. : When you said they were 13 looking for it, where were they looking for it? 14 MS. : In the control center. 15 MR. : I see. 16 MS. : Because that's where the 17 count slips would be. 18 MR. : So, they went to -. And so, 19 the captain, or the warden, went down to the 20 control center, they were looking for the 3:00 21 a.m. and the 5:00 a.m. count slips, and they 22 couldn't find them? 23 MS. : I don't know who actually 24 went in the control center because it's my 25 understanding they were looking for the count EFTA00116476 125 1 slips before I arrived. So, what -. 2 MR. : Did you do any vetting of 3 the counts, though, to notice, like, if the 4 count slips matched up with the institutional 5 counts, or anything like that? 6 MS. : Did I do any? 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MS. : No. I didn't. 9 MR. : So, you didn't notice. 10 Did you notice any of the count slips having, 11 like, any extra writing on them? Like, 95+1, 12 or 73+1. Or anything like that? 13 MS. : Hmm. I can't remember. 14 MR. : So, you don't remember. 15 MS. : I can't remember. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Do you want to show that? 18 MR. : No. I mean, yeah, if you 19 want to, if you have it. Sure. 20 MR. : We'll come back. So, I'll 21 come back to that. I just had a few questions. 22 So, when you came in, people were already in 23 the SHU, looking for stuff? 24 MS. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Pulling stuff up? EFTA00116477 126 1 MS. : That, it was only the captain 2 gave me a few things. He was looking for his 3 folder. His 292s and stuff to that effect. So 4 5 MR. : That would be Epstein's 6 folder? 7 MS. : -- Epstein's. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : Right. So, whatever he found 10 with Epstein, he did give it to me. Whatever 11 he found in the SHU. Again, the count slips 12 were in the warden's office, what they found. 13 So, I did get those from him. 14 MR. : What is the normal procedure 15 if an inmate dies in prison, or, you know, a 16 suicide happens in prison, what is the normal 17 procedure on the actions to be taken? 18 MR. : Well, prior to we get 19 into that, why were you all looking for the 20 count slips? 21 MS. : That's, like, a procedure, 22 what we do, you know, we look at the count 23 slips to make sure - especially with a suicide 24 in SHU - you want to make sure that the count 25 was conducted. You're going to review the EFTA00116478 127 1 cameras and see that the count was conducted. 2 You know, it's just to make sure, basically 3 everybody is accountable, and do what they 4 needed to do. 5 MR. : And did you do any of 6 that, trying to ensure that those counts were 7 conducted? 8 MS. 9 I didn't do 10 point, once 11 it would be 12 MR. 13 MS. 14 MR. 15 counts 16 MS. 17 MR. 18 MR. 19 MR. 20 21 22 23 24 25 Well, it was no cameras, and an investigation, because at that we notify OIG and FBI, we knew that their investigation. So -- : Right. -- I did no investigation. : And do you know if the were conducted? : I don't know. : Okay. : Okay. : So, now the procedures. MR. : Well, on the same note, then. Did they eventually find the count slips? MS. : They found -. They did find -. I don't think the 10th was ever located. It could have been. I can't recall. But I know the 10th was the missing count slip. One EFTA00116479 128 1 of them went missing or something to that 2 effect, that, you know, OIG kept calling me, 3 and I'm, like, I'm looking for them, I'm going 4 through everything, I'm going through, you 5 know, we were trying to find. It was something 6 missing. I can't remember the timeframe, but 7 it definitely was something missing, at the 8 time. 9 MR. : But you didn't say, it 10 eventually was found? 11 MS. : I -- 12 MR. : Okay. And do you know 13 MS. : -- I can't remember. 14 MR. : -- so, when you came in, 15 right after you found out about the incident, 16 did you come right to the SHU? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Who was in the SHU, at that 19 point? 20 MS. : I don't remember. It was a 21 lot of people. 22 MR. : When you say a lot of people, 23 like -? 24 MS. : In and out of the SHU. Like, 25 administration. Like, the captain, I think, EFTA00116480 129 1 was up there at the time. Or I -- 2 MR. : Was -. 3 MS. : -- I can't even remember what 4 officers was up there, to be honest with you. 5 MR. : Who was in the cell, at that 6 point? Epstein's cell. 7 MS. : Nobody. 8 MR. : Nobody. Was that sealed off? 9 MS. : The door was locked. 10 MR. : Do you know who locked it? 11 MS. : I don't know who locked it. 12 MR. : Okay. And why was the door 13 locked? 14 MS. : I don't know, but I'm 15 assuming somebody locked it because they knew 16 it would be -. You know, we would do an 17 investigation on it. 18 MR. : Do you think it was a 19 possible crime scene? 20 MS. : Right. 21 MR. : Okay. And they sealed it up 22 so no one came in and out? 23 MS. : Nobody came in and out. When 24 I got up there, it was locked. We took the 25 CPAP machine, and different stuff out of it, we EFTA00116481 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 did. And we inventoried it in SIS. MR. : So, that's a question. So, when you -. It was locked. Since did someone go in, at that point, to take stuff out? MS. : No. We didn't go in right then and there. No. We roped it off with the yellow tape. MR. : Okay. MS. : We roped it off with the yellow tape. MR. : And then, of course, what about the stuff inside the - before we go in this room - what about the stuff in the officer's desk? Was stuff inventoried out of the desks? Taken stuff, taken out. Like, any MS. MR. • Epstein. took the MS. MR. MS. • couldn't MR. : No. : -- anything related to Like, you mentioned that the captain folder. Where was that folder -- : No. : -- taken? : We couldn't find -. They find the folder. : Oh, they couldn't find the EFTA00116482 131 1 folder? 2 MS. : They couldn't find the folder 3 at all. So, whatever paperwork he got was 4 stuff laying around. 5 MR. : So, he took stuff off the 6 desks, and things like that? 7 MS. : I'm - yeah - I'm assuming 8 that's where he got it from. 9 MR. : Was an inventory made of 10 those stuff that he took out of the SHU? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. What are the steps - 13 as an SIS lieutenant - did you guys take any 14 materials out of the SHU, as evidence? 15 MS. : What do you mean? 16 MR. : Like, did -- 17 MS. : Find something? 18 MR. : -- any paperwork related to 19 Epstein, things like that, did you guys 20 inventory anything? 21 MS. : Everything related to him. 22 Yeah. Because we brought it down to SIS. We 23 turned it over to OIG. 24 MR. : Okay. So, the -- 25 MS. : And we inventoried it. EFTA00116483 132 1 MR. : -- inventory was done by you, 2 not the FBI? 3 MS. : No. It was done by me. They 4 signed off on it, well, as I was handing it to 5 them. I had everything on an inventory list, 6 of course. So, they were double checking what 7 I was giving them, and they signed off on the 8 chain of custody. 9 MR. : And that morning, the round 10 sheets, where did you find the round sheets? 11 MS. : So, someone gave me the round 12 sheets. 13 MR. : So, it was not -? It wasn't 14 in the SHU? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : Okay. And Epstein paper. 17 You said you took anything Epstein related, 18 right? In paperwork. 19 MS. : Right. 20 MR. : And, like, what kind of 21 paperwork did you take? 22 MS. : Oof. I think I got, like, 23 one or two 292s. I may have. Whatever it was, 24 was very little. 25 MR. : Do you recall taking this EFTA00116484 133 1 orange sign, mandatory -? It says mandatory 2 rounds must be conducted every 30 minutes on 3 Epstein. 4 MS. : Not, I've never even seen 5 that sign. 6 MR. : So, you've never seen that? 7 MS. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. And do you recall any 9 signs being up in the SHU, regarding Epstein? 10 MS. : No. I don't recall. 11 MR. : Him needing a cellmate, and 12 your rounds being -. So, you don't recall this 13 in there, either? 14 MS. : No. I've never seen that 15 sign. 16 MR. : Do you know who collected 17 that, by any chance? 18 MS. : No. I don't. 19 MR. : So, if you -. 20 MR. : Was it the captain that 21 went in and collected a lot of this stuff? Is 22 the one that -? 23 MS. : He did, but -- 24 MR. : And was he the one -- 25 MS. : -- that was never -- EFTA00116485 134 1 MR. : -- that provided -? He 2 provided you with some of this stuff, though, 3 like, the 292s that you're talking about? 4 MS. : Yes. He gave me the 292s. 5 MR. : And what is that? Is 6 that, like, the feeding -- 7 MS. : The feeding. 8 MR. : -- and the showers? 9 MS. : The showers. Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : But you don't recall this? 12 MS. : I've never seen that. 13 MR. : Was there any lists kept in 14 the SHU, to say any special needs for some of 15 the inmates? Like, if they are suicidal watch, 16 and things like that, is there any special 17 lists in the SHU for that? 18 MS. : It should have been a hot 19 list. What we call a hot list, that psychology 20 would have put up there. Do you recall if 21 there was one in the SHU, at that point? 22 MS. : I don't know. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : I don't know. 25 MR. : And if there was one, where EFTA00116486 135 1 would it have been kept? 2 MS. : I would think it would have 3 been posted somewhere near the officer's 4 station. 5 MR. : Okay. And what about the - 6 now, let's go to his cell - who inventoried 7 everything out of his cell? 8 MS. : My SIS tech went in, and she 9 took what was in there, which was, like, some 10 letters he had. I think some pill bottles. 11 And the CPAP machine was in there. 12 MR. : Did you assist your - sorry, 13 I wrote the person's name. 14 MS. : 15 MR. : . 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Did you assist ? 18 MS. : Yeah. I was up there. Yes. 19 MR. : How do you spell her last 20 name? 21 MS. : -. 22 MR. : So, it's, I wrote it . 23 . And first name is ? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. ? Like, our -- EFTA00116487 136 1 MS. : Yes. 2 MR. : -- , our country? 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Okay. Cool. 5 MR. : So, did you assist her when 6 - 7 MS. : Yeah. I was there. 8 MR. : -- when she walked in 9 You both were. 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : What was your impression when 12 you saw it? Like, what did you see when you 13 walked in? 14 MS. : Just, it wasn't much in the 15 cell. It was just more, linen sheets, linen 16 stuff. 17 MR. : Was there an excessive -- 18 MS. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- excessive amount of 20 linens and sheets? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : Did you inventory that? 23 MS. : No. I didn't. 24 MR. : Do you know around how 25 many linens and sheets were in there? EFTA00116488 137 1 MS : No. I don't. 2 MR. : But it seemed excessive, 3 though, for 4 MS. : For Special Housing. 5 MR. : -- right. 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : So, there were definitely 8 more than should have been in there? 9 MS. : I would say. 10 MR. : Do you know why that 11 would be the case? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : What about the pill bottles? 14 All those pill bottles, and you said you saw 15 medication, things like that. 16 MS. : I don't remember if they were 17 empty, or if medication was in them. I know we 18 just took them. 19 MR. : Can you start going 20 through the pictures? 21 MR. : Yeah. I think -- 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- let me show you pictures. 24 MS. : Sorry about that. 25 MR. : Because we have pictures from EFTA00116489 138 1 -- 2 MR. : Who took the pictures? 3 Do you know? 4 MS. : Ms. 5 MR. : Okay. Okay. 6 MR. : That's okay. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : So, what I'm showing you are 9 the pictures taken inside the SHU. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : Is that Epstein's cell? 12 MS. : This is -- 13 MR. : On the top. 14 MS. : -- yes. 15 MR. : And that's the You guys 16 put the 17 MS. : The tape on it. Yes. 18 MR. : -- the tape on it, to make 19 sure. 20 MR. : Yeah. That's it. When 21 you say you guys, SIS did? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Sorry. EFTA00116490 139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 up? Is that the CPAP machine? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. And you said you 12 removed it from the cell? 13 MS. : Yeah. We took the CPAP 14 machine. 15 MR. : Okay. And the CPAP machine 16 only extends to right there? 17 MS. : I can't remember where it was 18 located at. I just know she went, you know, 19 took it out. 20 MR. : So, what -. 21 MR. : Was there - on the CPAP 22 machine and that cord specifically - was there 23 any indication that he may have used that to 24 strangle, to attempt to harm himself, or 25 someone else attempt to harm him? MS. : Oh. MR. : No, no, no. MR. : So, is this from the outside of his MS. cell, the second picture? : Yeah. MR. : With ? MS. : This is the outside. Yes. MR. : So, what is this wire coming EFTA00116491 140 1 MS. : No. Just the, like, the - 2 just the CPAP machine with the cord. 3 MR. : So, was the cord not, 4 like, disheveled, or out of place? Was it 5 straight from the machine, all the way to where 6 it was plugged in? 7 MS. : I can't remember. 8 MR. : Okay. But there was 9 nothing 10 MS. : I can't. 11 MR. : -- that indicated that he 12 was strangled by anything other than the noose 13 that they found in there? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : Nothing indicated that 16 the CPAP machine or cord was used? 17 MS. : No. Hmm-mm. 18 MR. : No. Okay. 19 MR. : What happened to the CPAP 20 machine? 21 MS. : It's in the SIS shop. In the 22 inventory. 23 MR. : Oh, it's still there? 24 MS. : It should be still there. 25 I've been gone for a while. But yes. EFTA00116492 141 1 MR. : Okay. But that was taken as 2 a -- 3 MS. : Yes. 4 MR. : -- evidence? Okay. Now, 5 we've seen a lot of the orange. What is that? 6 Is that sheets? 7 MS. : They look like sheets. 8 MR. : And if you notice, there's a 9 mattress on the floor. 10 MS. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Is that where Epstein slept? 12 MS. : I don't know. 13 MR. : Okay. Do you know if that's 14 where they found his body? 15 MS. : I don't know. 16 MR. : Okay. Okay. So, this might 17 be upside down. 18 MR. : So, they were 19 MR. : I'll just -. 20 MR. : -- were all the lines and 21 sheets, were they, then, if they weren't 22 inventoried, were they all discarded? 23 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 24 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 25 MR. : Now, this picture - sorry, I EFTA00116493 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 had to flip it 2 like it's from 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 What are 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 clothes? MS. use them MR. MS. MR. : So, there's a ladder here that goes up to the second floor. MS. : Right. MR. : Okay. And it looks like there's a whole bunch of items on top. And between the materials that's on the floor, and the materials on the bed, you said there was an excessive amount of linen and -- MS. : Linen. MR. : -- linen. Okay. MR. : Who would be responsible for providing a linen, or removing a linen? MS. : That would be the SHU 142 a couple of times - it looks the corner -- : Right. : -- looking into the cell. these things that's tied up on? : This, and like these? : Yeah. Is that just to hang : They're clothes lines. They normally. Mm-hmm. : Well, what about this? : I don't know. EFTA00116494 143 1 officers. 2 MR. : Okay. So, people in the 3 SHU? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : And was that at all 6 questioned, like, hey, why was there so much 7 linen in there? 8 MS. : I don't. I didn't question 9 them. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : So, I can't -. I don't know 12 if anybody else did. 13 MR. : Okay. And if the cell 14 searches were being conducted, would that be 15 the time that they would actually take -- 16 MS. : Take everything. 17 MR. : -- the linen out? 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : So, what are we looking at, 21 at this picture? Is that the AED machine? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : And what is this right here? 24 MS. : I don't want to say the word 25 noose, but, you know, that's what it looks like EFTA00116495 144 1 2 3 to me. MR. : Okay. And where exactly on it, is this on the floor? Is that on the 4 corner? 5 MS. : I don't know from the angle. 6 MR. : But you know of, would 7 you know if this was the noose that was 8 actually 9 MS. : This was -. 10 MR. : -- used -? 11 MS. : I don't know. I don't know. 12 MR. : Do you know if there were 13 multiple nooses? 14 MS. : I don't know. I don't recall 15 seeing. No. I don't recall. No. 16 MR. : And where is -? What 17 happened to the noose? 18 MS. : It's in the SIS shop. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : Yeah. The SIS. 21 MR. : Still to this day? 22 MS. : It should be. 23 MR. : When was the last time you 24 saw it there? 25 MS. : It's been a while. I've been EFTA00116496 145 1 out of work for some time. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : What is your 4 understanding of how the noose -? How they got 5 Epstein down? Do you know if it was ripped, or 6 if it was cut? Or do you know anything about 7 that? 8 MS. : I don't know. Nobody never 9 said. 10 MR. : Okay. So, you never 11 looked at it. 12 MR. : Because no one said it to 13 you? 14 MS. : Right. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : But not when you were 17 collecting this evidence, though, wasn't 18 clearly, you know? Do you know if anything was 19 still hanging from where he was hung from, or 20 do you know if it was taken off of him after 21 they -? 22 MS. : I don't know. 23 MR. : You don't know. And who 24 would be the person to talk to about that? 25 MS. : The responders. EFTA00116497 146 1 2 3 4 5 MR. responders? MS. MR. Thomas? : : Like, the first Yeah. : As in, like, Noel and 6 MS. : Yeah. The responders would 7 have seen the condition of the cell. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Now, this is a picture. It 10 looks like -- 11 MS. : The bottom of that. 12 MR. : -- what is this right here? 13 This is a 14 MS. : A mattress. 15 MR. : -- is that another mattress? 16 MS. : Yeah. It look like it. 17 Yeah. 18 MR. : So, there is two mattresses 19 on top of each other? 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Okay. Let's go back. Is 22 there another mattress on the floor? Because I 23 don't see, two mattresses here. Right? 24 MS. : No. That's only one. 25 MR. : Oh, that's the -- EFTA00116498 147 1 MS. : Again -- 2 MR. : -- bottom one here. Okay. 3 MS. : -- I don't know who took the 4 pictures. I know she took a set of pictures, 5 and then when the FBI came in, they were 6 searching the cell, and they took a set of 7 pictures. So, I really don't know whose 8 pictures those are. 9 MR. : Is that two mattresses, or 10 just one mattress? 11 MS. : It looks like one. 12 MR. : One. Okay. But so, I 13 thought this picture taken, another mattress 14 was put on top? 15 MS. : Right. This look like two. 16 Of course, well, it is two. So, I don't know. 17 MR. : And look at this pill 18 bottles. There's different medications sitting 19 on the top bunk? 20 MS. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Are those things allowed in 22 the SHU? 23 MS. : The inmates, I think, are 24 allowed to have their medications. 25 MR. : It's not something where the EFTA00116499 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 medical comes by? 2 SHU, medical comes 3 medication? 4 MS. : 5 line daily. I 6 MR. 7 the medication. 8 MS. : MR. MS. : MR. provided MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. MR. by the MR. noose. MS. MR. MR. the same medical 148 It's because they're in the by daily and gives them the They normally do, do a pill don't know why he had -. ■: Well, it's dependent on It is. ■: Correct? Some -- Yeah. ■: some medication can be Because I've seen : -- through self-care. -- yes. Yes. : Right. Yes. : Some needs to be provided staff. : And that's the picture of the Something you guys took, or -? : The one that we took. Yeah. : Okay. : Do you know if this is EFTA00116500 149 1 MS. : Let me see. 2 MR. : -- one that we looked in 3 the other picture, though? 4 MS. : Not that. I don't know. 5 MR. : It looks like that. There's 6 different pictures of the noose. 7 MS. : Yeah. 8 MR. : All right. And we've got a 9 picture of bed. With all the linen on it. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : And that's all the materials 12 that was on the top bunk. 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Did you -. 15 MR. : You didn't take these 16 pictures, though. Correct? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Did you even go into the 19 cell, at the time, to see all of this? 20 MS. : No. They -. When the other 21 agencies was there, and we were out. On the 22 outside. 23 MR. : Okay. So, but is 24 the one who took these pictures? 25 MS. : I don't know if these are her EFTA00116501 150 1 set of pictures because the FBI took pictures, 2 as well. So, I don't know -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : -- if you have hers or 5 theirs. 6 MR. : I gotcha. 7 MR. : Before the FBI got in, was 8 anything moved in the cell? 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : Okay. So, yeah. This is 11 the kind of overall picture, and this is where 12 it kind of, you know, looks like there's 13 definitely an excessive amount of linens. 14 Correct? 15 MS. : On these pictures, yes. 16 MR. : And is that a security 17 issue, if there is an excessive -- 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : -- amount of linen? And 20 what is that reason that that would be a 21 security issue? 22 MS. : Excessive. The inmates been 23 known, you know, and to start fires. Suicide 24 inmates, that's excessive for them. 25 Definitely. EFTA00116502 151 1 MR. : So, inmates that came off of 2 suicide watch, or is, like, an observation, 3 they shouldn't have -? 4 MS. : No. They shouldn't have that 5 much linen. 6 MR. : Okay. You would - I know 7 you've been speaking - but you don't know where 8 exactly he hung himself, or where the body was 9 found, or anything like that? 10 MS. : No. I don't know. 11 MR. : Do you know if - for 12 instance, this, this looks like potentially 13 where he hung himself from - do you know if 14 this was placed back up there, or if that 15 remained there, undisturbed? 16 MS. : I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 18 So, where is now? 19 MS. : I'm assuming she's here. 20 MR. : Okay. So, she still 21 works here? 22 MS. : Yes. Oh -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : -- that's what you mean. 25 Yeah. EFTA00116503 152 1 MR. : And she's still an -- 2 MS. : SIS. 3 MR. : -- an SIS? 4 MS. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. So, she would be 6 really the person - she took photos - she would 7 be the person to ask about -- 8 MS. : Yes. She did take photos. 9 MR. : -- these things? 10 MS. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. Thank you. 12 MS. : Mm-hmm. No problem. 13 MR. : Did she have any 14 involvement with investigation? Was she here 15 prior to your arrival? 16 MS. : I don't know if she was here. 17 MR. : Was that -? 18 MS. : No. She wasn't here. No. 19 She wasn't here. 20 MR. : So, she came after -- 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : -- you arrived. And did 23 you immediately say, go take photographs, or 24 what did you tell her to do? 25 MS. : We went up to do the photo -. EFTA00116504 153 1 Tape the door up. We went up to tape the door 2 up. I don't remember at what point she took 3 photographs of the cell. 4 MR. : But it wasn't that day? 5 MS. : No. I don't think she went 6 inside -. Because it was blocked off. So, 7 nobody went inside that day. We just took the 8 angle you see of the door. Just so we could 9 show that we taped it off. 10 MR. : Did the FBI go in that 11 day? 12 MS. : When they came, yes. 13 MR. : Okay. SIS did not go in 14 that day? 15 MS. : No. 16 MR. : Just the FBI? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : Was there video taken, or 21 just pictures? 22 MS. : I don't know. We didn't take 23 any videos. 24 MR. : Okay. Nothing? 25 MR. : Oh, no. Okay. It sounds EFTA00116505 154 1 like the FBI is the people to talk about, with 2 the - as far as who went in there first, to -- 3 MS. : Yeah. They went in -- 4 MR. : -- to take pictures. 5 MS. : -- we just escorted them up. 6 I escorted them up there, and -. 7 MR. : Do you know if anything - 8 after they removed Epstein's body from the cell 9 - do you know if they, anybody went back into 10 that cell? 11 MS. : I don't know. 12 MR. : You don't know? 13 MS. : I don't know. 14 MR. : Prior to the FBI going 15 in? 16 MS. : Yeah. 17 MR. : When Epstein was brought up 18 to the hospital, do you know what he was 19 wearing? Do you know if there was an inventory 20 stuff on the -? You know, the clothes that was 21 on him. What happened to the stuff that was 22 inventoried? 23 MS. : I don't know. 24 MR. : Was anything brought back? 25 MS. : No. Nothing was brought EFTA00116506 155 1 back. But the disk with the pictures they took 2 out there. 3 MR. : Do you know, did you hear of 4 when R&D, was any R&D officers sent to the 5 hospital? 6 MS. : I don't know if the officers 7 was there. The supervisor, Mr. went out 8 to the hospital. 9 MR. : And when they go out on a 10 situation like this, do they go to the hospital 11 with anything with them? Like cameras. 12 MS. : Yeah. You took the pictures. 13 And he - I think he did the fingerprints. 14 MR. : So, he did take pictures? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : It's on a camera provided by 17 MCC? 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : And he took fingerprints 20 also? 21 MS. : I think he did fingerprints 22 also. 23 MR. : Did he also take a video, 24 or just camera pictures? 25 MS. : Just pictures. EFTA00116507 156 1 MR. : Do you know where those 2 pictures are? 3 MS. : On my home drive. 4 MR. : Okay. Is that another 5 thing that we can ask you to send to us, as 6 well -- 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- to make it a little 9 less, and then we'll send in an email out. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MS. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Is there a reason -? 13 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:49:37). 14 Oh, it's (Indiscernible *01:49:39). I was -. 15 Because I had a binder, too. I was -. I'm 16 just trying to brainstorm, see if I could get 17 it to you guys while you're here. That's what 18 19 MR. : Is there a reason why 20 - sorry - that went to the hospital, 21 took pictures on his personal phone, and texted 22 that over to the AW? 23 MS. : I didn't even know he went to 24 the hospital. This is the first I'm hearing he 25 went to the hospital. EFTA00116508 157 1 MR. : He said he was under the 2 impression that the R&D did come in with the 3 camera, but they left without taking any 4 pictures, and they took the camera with them. 5 MS. : I don't know why he was under 6 the impression because he brought the camera 7 back, and I downloaded the pictures off of it. 8 MR. : Is there any policy about 9 just anyone, you know, C.O.s, any BOP employees 10 taking pictures on their personal phone, for 11 suicide, or anyone like that? 12 MS. : You shouldn't be taking any. 13 MR. : Are you familiar -- 14 MS. : Any pictures. 15 MR. : -- if there's any policy like 16 that? 17 MS. : I don't know if it's a 18 policy. I don't know. 19 MR. : But as far as you know, you 20 never got those pictures? 21 MS. : From Mr. ? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MS. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 25 questions in regards to that topic? EFTA00116509 158 1 MR. : Nope. 2 MR. : Have you heard - did you hear 3 anything about doors in the SHU being left 4 unlocked? 5 MS. : No. 6 MR. : Was there ever any issues 7 about C.O.s possibly leaving the SHU doors 8 unlocked, the tiers doors unlocked, so it's 9 easier to walk in and out? 10 MS. : I don't know. 11 MR. : Okay. What about cell doors? 12 Did you ever hear any rumors about possibly 13 that cell doors in Epstein's tier was left 14 unlocked? 15 MS. : No. I never heard it. 16 MR. : What is your 17 understanding of how Epstein -? Of what 18 happened with Epstein? 19 MS. : My understanding was, they 20 found him, I guess sitting on the floor, with 21 rope around his neck. And I don't know who 22 went in the cell first. But I did hear was 23 Mr. Thomas, Ms. Noel. I heard Lieutenant 24 and I don't remember who it was from medical. 25 MR. : As far as when he was a , EFTA00116510 159 1 found, though, was it your understanding that 2 he did whatever happened to him, to himself? 3 MS. : That's what my understanding 4 was. 5 MR. : Do you have any 6 information at all that would suggest that 7 Epstein did not harm himself, and that someone 8 else harmed him? 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Did he have any threats from 12 other inmates? 13 MS. : I don't know. 14 MR. : Okay. Anything else? 15 MR. : Nope. 16 MR. : Did you ever interact with 17 Epstein while he was at the -? 18 MS. : When I did the first suicide 19 attempt, allegedly. 20 MR. : After that. Have there been 21 any interactions? 22 MS. : No interaction. I just seen 23 him in attorney area because he did his 24 attorney visits pretty much all day. So, if I 25 would walk by and see him, I will step in and EFTA00116511 160 1 ask him was he okay. Normally, he will just 2 give the thumbs up, and you know, I will walk 3 away. But if I see him, I definitely will ask. 4 You know, you okay, anything you need? And he 5 will just throw the thumbs up. 6 MR. : Was he given any special 7 privileges here at the MCC? 8 MS. : Not that I know of. 9 MR. : Being that -. What is your 10 understanding about him having attorney 11 conference every day? Did you know that he was 12 in attorney conference pretty much every day, 13 from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Was that something that was 16 afforded to other inmates? 17 MS. : I've seen it done before. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MS. : Yes. 20 MR. : So, it's happened in the 21 past? 22 MS. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. So, it's not just him? 24 MS. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Okay. Do you know which EFTA00116512 163. 1 other inmates? 2 MR. : No. We don't need to 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : I don't know. 5 MR. : I got nothing else on the -. 6 MR. : So, these are - when we 7 were talking about count slips previously - 8 this is what I was talking about. So, do you 9 see, all these other counts, this was the 10:00 10 p.m. count on August 9th. All these other 11 count slips have crosses all over them. 12 They're checking, you know, say, from our 13 understanding, it says as one, different things 14 come in, they check them off. 15 MS. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Well, these two that one 17 is from R&D, and one is from the SHU, one) they 18 don't have the check marks coming off of; and 19 two) they ZA one, which is the SHU, says 73+1. 20 And the R&D says 9S+1. Do you know anything 21 about that? 22 MS. : No. I don't know what the 23 plus one stands for. 24 MR. : No. Do you know anything 25 about, like, ghost counting, or anything of EFTA00116513 162 1 that nature? 2 MS. : I've heard them ghost count 3 before. If an inmate was in medical during a 4 count. 5 MR. : Would they put, like 6 MS. : One. 7 MR. : -- a plus one on the slip 8 if they're ghost counting? 9 MS. : I've never seen. I've never 10 seen a plus one, when I've taken a count. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : To be honest with you. I've 13 never seen a plus one. 14 MR. : And when you said that 15 you were handling the count slips, or 16 collecting them, did you remember seeing 17 anything like that, with the 9S+1, or the -? 18 MS. : I don't remember. 19 MR. : You don't remember? 20 MS. : I don't remember. 21 MR. : Is that very abnormal to 22 you, that those things are on there? 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : Yes. I would have sent this EFTA00116514 163 1 count slip back because plus one -- 2 MR. : Or it -- 3 MS. : -- doesn't tell me -. 4 MR. : -- it may have been the 5 people that were doing the count, that wrote 6 it, is actually where the thought is. 7 MS. : Oh, I don't know. 8 MR. : But you don't know. 9 MS. : I've never seen a plus one. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : In terms of, if there is 12 possibly a suicide, is there, during training, 13 are C.O.s taught what actions to take if they 14 think that there's a possible suicide attempt 15 in a cell? 16 MS. : Yes. 17 MR. : What is the training? 18 MS. : We get suicide prevention 19 training yearly, during annual refresher 20 training, the psychology conduct mock 21 exercises. 22 MR. : And what do they teach you? 23 Like, if you see something. If you see 24 possible suicide. What is the C.O. supposed to 25 do? EFTA00116515 164 1 MS. : First, you're going to yell 2 for help, or for a supervisor, but when you 3 have another staff member with you, you could 4 open the door and attempt to free that person, 5 if - for instance - if it's a noose or 6 something to that effect. 7 MR. : They don't have to wait for 8 other C.O.s to respond? 9 MS. : Well, it is recommended that 10 you have somebody with you. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MS. : It is recommended that you 13 have somebody with you. 14 MR. : Recommended, not 15 required? 16 MS. : I don't think it's required 17 MR. : Is there part of the 18 security part where it could be a rouse to get 19 you in, and then they could overthrow you? 20 MS. : Absolutely. Absolutely. 21 MR. : So, is that why -? So, 22 our understanding was that it was actually a 23 requirement that you're not supposed to go in - 24 - 25 MS. : By yourself. EFTA00116516 165 1 MR. : -- by yourself. 2 MS. : Just in case there is a fake 3 attempt or something to get in you. 4 MR. : Anything else? 5 MR. : Nope. 6 MR. : I got nothing else in my line 7 of questioning. 8 MR. : Great. Yeah, no. So, 9 there is no, nothing for you to believe that 10 Epstein did anything other than take his own 11 life? 12 MS. : No. 13 MR. : Okay. And then, that 14 these other things were just systematic 15 failures. What do you think overall led to 16 Epstein being able to take his own life? 17 MS. : I want to say the systematic 18 failures, the breakdown with, you know, 19 although we don't know the previous attempt, we 20 don't know the logistics, right? So, if we 21 know we had this inmate, we should have been 22 watching him a little bit better, I think. 23 MR. : So, do you think the main 24 reasons would be, if counts and rounds weren't 25 being conducted, would that be a big factor EFTA00116517 166 1 into why he was able to kill himself? 2 MS. : Yes. I would say so, because 3 if you know nobody is walking around. 4 MR. : What about the fact that 5 he didn't have a cellmate, and he was supposed 6 to have a cellmate? 7 MS. : That, as well. 8 MR. : Do you think one of them 9 is more important than the other? Or do they 10 go hand in hand? 11 MS. : I think they go hand in hand. 12 MR. : Okay. So, they're both 13 as equally -- 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : -- as important. Is 16 there anything else, aside from those two main 17 issues, that you think led to Epstein's death? 18 MS. : I really can't say. I don't 19 know. 20 MR. : Okay. Anything that we 21 didn't ask you, that we should know about? 22 MS. : No. You guys pretty much -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MS. : -- much asked -- 25 MR. : No. I know we EFTA00116518 167 1 MS. : -- everything. 2 MR. : -- we covered a lot. 3 Great. 4 MR. : Well, thank you for taking 5 the time to talk to us today. 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Can we just have -- 8 MS. : No problem. 9 MR. : -- her initial? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. So, the thing 12 that, we just - so that we know we talked, that 13 all these have to get attached to the 14 recording. If you could just initial. For 15 instance, this pack. Just initial the top 16 photograph, because there's anything -- 17 MS. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- so you don't have to 19 go through none of those. But the things that 20 we discussed, if you don't mind just -- 21 MS. : No problem. 22 MR. : -- initialing and dating. 23 And today's date is -- 24 MS. : The 23rd. Correct? 25 MR. : -- correct. So, 9/23/21. EFTA00116519 168 1 MS. : Oh, I feel special. I got a 2 new pen. Oh. 3 MR. : Oh. There goes that. I just 4 had the other pen. Okay, there you go, sir. 5 MS. : Yeah. 6 MR. : I apologize. 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : And it goes government pens. 9 MR. : Anything else? 10 MR. : No. 11 MS. : (Indiscernible *01:59:01). 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:59:15). 13 MR. : Okay. Thank you very 14 much. 15 MS. : Yeah. No problem. 16 MR. : Is that all of it? The 17 things we covered. 18 MR. : I'm just looking for -- 19 MR. : You have the most -- 20 MR. : -- oh, that's everything. 21 MR. : -- beautiful handwriting 22 I think I've ever seen. It's like calligraphy. 23 MS. : Oh, really? I thought it 24 was, like, chicken scratch and all over the 25 place. EFTA00116520 1 MR. 2 was, like, wow. 3 MS. 4 MR. 5 it? 6 MR. 7 the interview. 8 September 23rd, 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 169 : No. And once I saw it, I That is pretty impressive. Okay. : Okay You want to end Yeah. So, we're going to end The time is 11:19 a.m. on 2021. This is Special Agent I'm ending the interview. EFTA00116521 170 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00116522