EFTA00117427.pdf

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL OCTOBER 27, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES EFTA00117427 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00117428 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. 2 MR. : My name is . I 3 am a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 MS. : Thank you. 8 MR. : This interview with Federal 9 Bureau of Prisons employee, Captain III 10 . Did I get that right? 11 MS. . 12 MR. : 13 MS. : Yes. 14 MR. : Is being conducted as part of 15 an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office 16 of the Inspector General investigation. 17 Today's date is October 27th. The time is 18 11:25 a.m. This interview is being conducted 19 at the OIG, New York Field Office, located on 20 the 22 MR. 23 Agent, 24 credentials. 25 MS. Also present is: : DOJ/OIG Senior Special . And these are my Thank you. EFTA00117429 4 1 MR. : Thank you. 2 MR. : This interview will be 3 recorded by me, Special Agent . 4 Could everyone please identify themselves for 5 the record, and spell your last name? To 6 start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent, 7 8 MR. : Senior Special Agent 9 . 10 MS. : And Captain 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Thank you. This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and you are being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions. Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? MS. : Yes. MR. : Okay. I'm going to provide you with a form. OIG form 1II-226/2. It states, "United States Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances to Employees Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to provide information as part of EFTA00117430 5 1 an investigation being conducted by the Office 2 of the Inspector General. This investigation 3 is being conducted pursuant to the Inspector 4 General Act of 1978, as amended. 5 This investigation pertains to job 6 performance failure and security failure. This 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 10 not to answer questions. Any statements you 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 12 criminal proceedings, or agency disciplinary 13 proceeding, or both." 14 The waiver section states, "I understand 15 the Warnings and Assurances stated above, and I 16 am willing to make a statement and answer 17 questions. No promises or threats have been 18 made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any 19 kind has been used against me." Please review 20 the form, and if you understand and agree, 21 please sign where it states, "Employee 22 Signature," and print your name below it. 23 MS. : You said, so, print right 24 here? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00117431 6 1 MS. : And signature and print? 2 MR. : Yes. This is 3 I'm signing on the Signature of the Special 4 Agent. Agent , can you please sign 5 as a witness? 6 MR. : Yes. I am signing as a 7 witness. Put my name, and I will enter the 8 date, time, and place. 9 MR. : Thank you. Captain . 10 before starting the interview, I would like to 11 place you under oath. Can you please raise 12 your right hand? 13 MS. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 15 truth and nothing but the truth during this 16 interview? 17 MS. : Yes. 18 MR. : Thank you. You can put your 19 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 20 understand any questions I ask, and I will try 21 to repeat it, or rephrase it for you. 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : What is your current home 24 address? 25 MS. - EFTA00117432 7 1 4 MR. 5 of birth? 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 number? 9 MS. 10 MR. 11 phone number? 12 MS. 13 MR. 14 education? 15 16 17 18 college. 19 MR. • 20 MS. • 21 Indiana. 22 MR. • 23 college? 24 MS. : Commonwell (Phonetic Sp. 25 *00:04:27) Business College. Thank you. What is your date I : What is your social security I What is your current cell : Area code is What is your highest level of MS. • : Some college. MR. • What is your college? MS. • : Just a couple of community Okay. : In my hometown. Back in What was the name of the EFTA00117433 8 1 MR. : Okay. And was there a 2 concertation you were following? 3 MS. : No. 4 MR. : Okay. What did you do prior 5 to working for the BOP? 6 MS. : I worked for Indiana State 7 Corrections. 8 MR. : And how long was that for? 9 MS. : I started, it was about, I 10 believe I started in 1993. And then, I left 11 there in '98, and came to the BOP. 12 MR. : Okay. In '98, you came to 13 the BOP? 14 MS. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. Did you have any 16 military service? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Okay. And have you been with 19 the BOP since 1998? 20 MS. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. Do you remember your 22 exact enter on duty date? 23 MS. : April 26, 1998. 24 MR. : Thank you. And what is your 25 current employment status? EFTA00117434 9 1 MS. : I'm sorry. I don't 2 understand. 3 MR. : What is your current 4 position with 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- the BOP? 7 MS. : I'm a captain. I'm sorry. 8 MR. : At the FCI Fort 9 MS. : At Fort -- 10 MR. -- Dix. 11 MS. yes. At FCI Fort Dix. 12 I'm the complex captain. 13 MR. : Okay. And prior to being 14 captain at FCI Fort Dix, were you employed at 15 the MCC? 16 MS. : Well, I was the deputy 17 captain at Fort Dix. Then I got the 18 institution captain, but prior to that, yes, I 19 was employed at MCC New York. 20 MR. : During what time period? 21 MS. : I started in -. I 22 transferred to MCC in April of 2013, and I left 23 in September 2019. 24 MR. : And what was, in September 25 2019, you transferred over to -? EFTA00117435 10 1 MS. : FCI Fort Dix. 2 MR. : As a deputy -- 3 MS. : Captain. 4 MR. : -- captain. 5 MS. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : What was your position at the 7 MCC in 2019? 8 MS. : I was a lieutenant. 9 MR. : A lieutenant. Okay. Was 10 that a nine, or -? 11 MS. : No. I was an 11. 12 MR. : An 11. 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Okay. And as a lieutenant at 15 the MCC, what were your duties there? 16 MS. : That year, I was assigned as 17 the administrative lieutenant. So, my duties 18 consisted of making sure the staff and the 19 correctional services department got their 20 training. I did everybody's schedules. 21 Sometimes, I covered shifts. If the captain 22 wasn't there, I acted in his capacity. Just 23 various, you know, responsibilities. 24 MR. : It was not in custody, it was 25 more, you said administrative? EFTA00117436 11 1 MS. : Well, the administrative 2 lieutenant is part of the custody department, 3 because everything I did involved officers and 4 lieutenants. 5 MR. : Okay. And in terms, I know 6 there is an operations lieutenant. There is an 7 activities lieutenant. 8 MS. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : And where would you fall 10 under? Like, do you work side by side with 11 them, or is there a separate department that 12 you are -? 13 MS. : Well, we worked on the same 14 floor. But I don't do the same duties that 15 they do. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : So, I would be there with 18 them, but they would be covering the shift. I 19 had nothing to do with the shift itself. You 20 know, the trips that went out, or the work 21 assignments or whatever. I would do the work 22 assignments prior to them actually working on 23 that day. So, as the administrative 24 lieutenant, my responsibility was to generate 25 the daily rosters, and the quarterly rosters, EFTA00117437 12 1 and give those to the lieutenants, and then 2 they did whatever they needed to do with them. 3 MR. : Okay. And who reported to 4 you directly? 5 MS. : The officers reported to me. 6 And that was pretty much it. 7 MR. : Which officers? 8 MS. : All of them, because I did 9 all of their schedules. So, they came to me if 10 they had an issue, or they needed time off, 11 they had an issue with their schedule. They 12 were out on workman's comp. Or, you know, 13 anything dealing with leave time, or anything, 14 they came to me. 15 MR. : Okay. And you mentioned that 16 you would coordinate training for the 17 employees? 18 MS. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : What kind of trainings? 20 MS. : The quarterly mandatory 21 trainings that we were required to do. Our 22 annual trainings that we were required to do. 23 Regular annual refresher training. Firearms 24 training. I had to do all of - schedule all of 25 that. EFTA00117438 13 1 MR. : Okay. And did you schedule 2 all of that, the quarterly training, the annual 3 refresher training, all that, in 2019? 4 MS. : Yes. Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : How is it documented if 6 employees received training? 7 MS. : So, which training are we 8 talking about? Just any, or -? 9 MR. : Just -- 10 MR. : Just -. 11 MR. : -- specifically, we 12 talked about the SHU quarterly training, and 13 the annual refresher training. 14 MS. : Okay. So, for the annual 15 refresher training, Human Resources would 16 normally get with me. They would tell me the 17 dates that they wanted to do annual refresher 18 training. And what I would do is go onto the 19 roster program. They would let me know how 20 many staff to put in each day. I would go into 21 the program. I would assign them, and then, I 22 would back fill their positions with a non- 23 custody staff member. 24 So, that was documented on every quarterly 25 roster. So, what I used to do was, because I EFTA00117439 14 1 sat with the union, to determine which non- 2 custody staff member went to what post, I would 3 keep that, I would have them bid on what they 4 wanted to work. And I would keep that 5 documentation in the administrative office with 6 me. As far as the quarterly training goes, 7 every quarter, any staff member who bid to work 8 in SHU - in the Special Housing Unit, I'm 9 sorry. 10 Any staff member that bid to work there, 11 they had to go through mandatory quarterly 12 training. So, what I would do is, I would get 13 with the SHU lieutenant to figure out a date. 14 It has to be completed before the new quarter 15 starts. And he would tell me whatever - he or 16 she - would tell me whatever date they wanted 17 to do it. Every staff member that was on the 18 quarterly roster, that would be in SHU, was 19 scheduled to attend that training. We would do 20 it in a classroom setting, for, like, a four- 21 hour block. And all I would do was schedule 22 the training, let the SHU lieutenant know, make 23 sure he had the post orders, because all field 24 office the staff who were going to be up there 25 was supposed to go through the post orders, and EFTA00117440 15 1 read them, and sign them. And he would the 2 training, and then just give me the sign in 3 sheet for everybody that attended. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And prior to them actually 6 starting their rotation in the SHU, this 7 training would have to be completed. 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : All right. And it's a 10 mandatory training? 11 MS. : Yes. 12 MR. : And what topics does the 13 training cover? 14 MS. : We have a Special Housing 15 Unit slide down. That's the normal training. 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MS. : But what the training should 18 cover, outside of them doing that slide show, 19 that SHU, normally the SHU lieutenant does the 20 training. Outside of that slide show, they 21 should be discussing with them how to operate 22 the SHU program. We have psychology come in 23 and do a class on suicide prevention. Hunger 24 strikes. They should be talking to them about 25 how to fill out the documentation for 292s. EFTA00117441 16 1 Just anything dealing with SHU, period, that 2 lieutenant is supposed to go over it with them, 3 as well as have them watch that slide show. 4 MR. : So, are they allowed to work 5 in the SHU without getting that training? 6 MS. : Yes. However, they 7 shouldn't because that training is documented. 8 Every quarter, we have to send to the region 9 that it was completed. And it also gets, I 10 believe it gets keyed into their training file 11 with Human Resources. 12 MR. : And who was required to 13 ensure that they receive that training? 14 MS. : The SHU lieutenant. 15 MR. : Okay. And then, what 16 would your role be in that? Like, if someone 17 didn't actually - someone would bid for that 18 quarterly position, and actually wasn't able, 19 for whatever reason, to attend the actual 20 quarterly training, for the SHU, what is the 21 protocol? What should have taken place? 22 MS. : So, if, just say for 23 instance, can I give an example -- 24 MR. : Absolutely. 25 MS. : -- okay. So, just say for EFTA00117442 17 1 instance a staff member was out on a workman's 2 comp. They had missed the SHU training for 3 that reason, or they were on annual leave. 4 When they come back to work, I would coordinate 5 it with the SHU lieutenant, to have that person 6 go over the training with them. And then, they 7 would come back and make sure that they sign 8 that they completed the training. And again, I 9 kept that stored in, on file in my office. In 10 the admin office. 11 MR. : All right. So, it sounds 12 like you were the one who kind of keeps records 13 of who has done it, and who has not. You then 14 coordinate it with the SHU lieutenant, and say 15 if this person needs to take it. And then, 16 after they take it, they are supposed to come 17 to you and sign it? 18 MS. : No. Not -. After they take 19 it, I would give the SHU lieutenant the sign-in 20 sheet. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MS. : Because that person should 23 sign for the date that they actually completed 24 the training. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00117443 18 1 MS. : So, the sign-in sheet would 2 have everybody that actually attended on the 3 scheduled day, and then the names of the people 4 who still needed to attend it. And once they 5 do it, they are supposed to sign, and sign for 6 the date that they do it. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, my next question would 9 have been, if any employee was not able to 10 attend training, was there a makeup training 11 session involved? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : And that would be not by you, 14 that would be by the SHU lieutenant? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. And do they normally 17 get training? How long is the SHU training? 18 How long does it normally take? The quarterly 19 training. 20 MS. : We usually schedule it for a 21 four-hour block. 22 MR. : For how many days? 23 MS. : One. Just one day. 24 MR. : So, one day, four hours? 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. I would schedule EFTA00117444 19 1 everybody for that one day, for four hours. 2 MR. : And let's say if somebody 3 missed it, and they came back, they would have 4 to sit through that four hours? 5 MS. : Well, once I would tell the 6 SHU lieutenant this person is back, you got to 7 make sure that they complete the training. I'm 8 not sure how he went about doing it with them. 9 Because I didn't attend the training. I never 10 attended the training. I just scheduled it. 11 MR. : Who schedules the trainers? 12 Who picks the trainers and schedules them to 13 teach the class? 14 MS. : Well, any lieutenant can 15 teach training for the Special Housing Unit. 16 During annual refresher training, every year 17 when we do it, it's a lieutenant assigned to do 18 it. 19 MR. : So, normally, it's a 20 lieutenant. So, in this case, if a C.O. missed 21 the training, they come back, the lieutenant 22 can technically give the full training? 23 MS. : They can. 24 MR. : Okay. And how soon after 25 they come back from training should the EFTA00117445 20 1 lieutenant give them a training? 2 MS. : Right away, if they are 3 going to have them in SHU. I would -. I tried 4 my best - because I was the admin lieutenant 5 there for a long time - so, I tried my best to 6 keep up with that, to make sure, as soon as 7 this person came back, they did whatever they 8 needed to do. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MS. : But I can I -- 11 MR. : Yeah. Sure. 12 MS. : -- say something? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Absolutely. 15 MS. : Because you had asked me, 16 can a person work in the Special Housing Unit 17 without the training, and like I said, yes, but 18 they shouldn't. However, you had a lot of non- 19 custody staff who weren't required to take this 20 training. Because they weren't in correctional 21 services. 22 MR. : But the quarterly bidded 23 people -- 24 MS. : The quarterly bidded people 25 -- EFTA00117446 23. 1 MR. : -- were required. 2 MS. : -- had to do it. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MS. : That was it. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : Do you recall a C.O. by the 8 name of Tova Noel? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : Do you know if in that 11 quarter that - this would be June, July, August 12 of 2019 - if she was one of those C.O.s that 13 bidded for the SHU? 14 MS. : I don't remember. I think 15 she got a relief post in SHU, if I'm not 16 mistaken, and I do remember, she was out for a 17 while because she had injured, I don't know if 18 it was her ankle or something. She was out on 19 workman's comp. So, around that time, when we 20 did the training, she wasn't there. 21 MR. : She wasn't there. 22 MS. : Hmm-mm. 23 MR. : Now -. 24 MR. : Whoa, whoa. So, what 25 happened if she wasn't there? EFTA00117447 22 1 MS. : Once she came back, the SHU 2 lieutenant would have gotten with her to get 3 with her to have her take care of it, and have 4 her sign. 5 MR. : Okay. Go ahead. 6 MR. : Okay. Is this the mandatory 7 quarterly SHU training for 2019? 8 MS. : Yes. 9 MR. : The dates shows 6/6/2019? 10 MS. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Is that the -? 12 MS. : Yeah. I'm sorry. Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. And that is the sign- 14 in sheet? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, on the sign-in sheet, 18 it shows different dates on it. Do you know 19 what they would represent? 20 MS. : So, as I said, the 21 difference dates would be because, when we 22 actually had this training, these people 23 probably weren't here. So, once they came 24 back, they had to do the training, and sign 25 that they completed it on the date that they EFTA00117448 23 1 completed it. 2 MR. : And for any of these 3 people, did you review the training with me, or 4 was it always the SHU lieutenant that was 5 supposed to review the training with them? 6 MS. : No. I never did the 7 training with them. It was always the SHU 8 lieutenant, or whoever was assigned to SHU at 9 that time. 10 MR. : So, with this sign-in 11 sheet, would you, did you give that sign-in 12 sheet to the lieutenant to have them sign, or 13 would you go to the employee themselves and 14 have them sign it? 15 MS. : No. I gave this to the 16 lieutenant. 17 MR. : All right. So, in this 18 instance, we spoke with Tova Noel. She is 19 claiming that you went directly to her with 20 this, and asked her to sign it. Do you recall 21 that? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : No? 24 MS. : No. I remember speaking to 25 her, and she returned back to work, from her EFTA00117449 24 1 injury, and I told her she had to do the 2 training. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : But I didn't have her sign 5 this. 6 MR. : Do you remember her 7 saying -. So, she returned to work on or 8 around June 24th of 2021. 9 MS. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : The SHU was her quarterly 11 -- 12 MR. : 2019. Sorry. 13 MR. sorry. 2019. The SHU 14 was her quarterly bidded post. And she says 15 that, on the 26th, is when she signed, that you 16 came to her directly and said, you have to sign 17 this, and she said she didn't get it from the 18 lieutenant. She got it directly from you. 19 Does that -- 20 MS. : No. 21 MR. : -- ring a bell at all? 22 MS. : No. 23 MR. : All right. We just want 24 to read you some quotes from her transcript. 25 Just to see, you know, what your response is to EFTA00117450 25 1 this. We asked her, "Who was your direct 2 supervisor?" And she said, "Lieutenant 3 ." Would that be accurate? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : So, you didn't believe 6 that you were her direct supervisor? 7 MS. : Well, the operations 8 lieutenant on her shift, or the activities 9 lieutenant on her shift was her direct 10 supervisor. 11 MR. : Okay. So, that changes 12 every day, but I guess if we had one specific 13 that was a constant, would that be you? 14 MS. : No. She was dealing with me 15 while she was out on workman's comp, because 16 while she was out, I was the one getting her 17 doctor's notes, and calling to check on her, or 18 if she had, like, a CA-7 that needed to be 19 filled out, so she can keep getting paid, I had 20 to fill that out. 21 MR. : Okay. So, while she was 22 out, up until at least the 24th of - June - 23 2019, that's why she considered you her 24 supervisor, because you were the one dealing 25 directly with her? EFTA00117451 26 1 MS. : I'm assuming. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : But once she returned to 4 work, whoever that shift lieutenant was, would 5 be who she would deal with. 6 MR. : Okay. So then, we asked, 7 it says - and this is me speaking - "You 8 mentioned you didn't remember ever going to 9 quarterly SHU training. This is a sign-in 10 sheet for quarterly SHU training. I just want 11 you to, is this your signature on there for 12 June 26th, 2019?" And she responds, "You see 13 how I'm the last one on the bottom of all of 14 them?" I say, "Correct." She says, "Because I 15 wasn't at the training when I came in," she 16 responded. "Did they provide it to you one on 17 one, though?" She said, "No." I said, "So, 18 how come?" She said, "Because when I came back 19 from an injury, the lieutenant asked me to sign 20 because when they had program review, they need 21 to show that I received the training. But I 22 never did. She just asked me to sign." 23 "That's why I wonder why, who asked you to do 24 that?" I said. And she said, "Lieutenant 25 ." EFTA00117452 27 1 MS. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : I said, "So, that 3 supervisor you mentioned was your first line 4 supervisor, asked you to sign without providing 5 you the training?" She said, "Yes." I said, 6 "And she didn't, like, provide you anything to 7 review?" She said, "No." And I said, "She 8 didn't go over anything with you?" She said, 9 "No." I said, "Did you discuss this with her, 10 that how can you sign something without being 11 provided the training?" 12 She said, "Well, I just told her I wasn't 13 here. I was out on an injury. She said she 14 knows, but she needed me to sign it because 15 they need it for a program review." I said, 16 "What's her first name?" And she responded, 17 n ." I said, "And is she a 18 lieutenant?" And Noel said, "She's a - I don't 19 know what she is now - but she is not at MCC 20 anymore. She's at somewhere in Jersey." So, 21 with all that being said, what is your response 22 to Ms. Noel, with her statements to us? 23 MS. : Her statement is partially 24 true. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00117453 28 1 MS. : I did explain to her that 2 she needed to complete the training because we 3 had to have it done for our program review. 4 However, I had her do that training with the 5 SHU lieutenant. I would have never had her 6 sign something that she didn't review. And the 7 reason why her name is last on that list is 8 because she came back to work at that time. 9 MR. : Okay. So -. 10 MR. : Did you ask her to sign the 11 document for the program review, prior to the 12 program review, without her actually taking the 13 training? 14 MS. : No. I explained to her that 15 she had to complete the training because when 16 we had our program review, they review these 17 documents, and that is part of what they call 18 our working papers. And if one person has - or 19 whoever - has it missed, we get a write-up for 20 that. 21 MR. : Did you speak with Lieutenant 22 , and instruct him that, hey, listen, he 23 needs to give Tova Noel the training? 24 MS. : Yes. 25 MR. : And did he ever confirm with EFTA00117454 29 1 you that he did provide it to her? 2 MS. : No. I just got the sign-in 3 sheet back with her name signed. 4 MR. : Oh, so, you didn't give it to 5 her. You gave it to the lieutenant. And -- 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- the lieutenant got her to 8 sign in, and provide it back to you? 9 MS. : Yes. 10 MR. : So, she is saying you 11 came directly to her. She didn't get any 12 training from either Lieutenant , who was 13 the SHU lieutenant at the time, or provided any 14 kind of sheets to review. She said - and we 15 can go into greater detail of what she said -- 16 MS. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- but she said that you 18 didn't, when she said this to you, you said, I 19 just need it for the program review, and you 20 asked her not to date it, and she said that she 21 intentionally wanted to date it, to show what 22 date that she did this on. 23 MS. : That's not accurate at all. 24 MR. : Okay. So, please, 25 explain to us. And just for the record, we are EFTA00117455 30 1 not saying that what she said was accurate. 2 That's why we're asking you -- 3 MS. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- to just clarify all of 5 this, of what exactly happened. 6 MS. : No. The only conversation 7 that she and I had, and if I remember 8 correctly, it was on her first day back, if I 9 am not mistaken. Her first day back to work, 10 because she came to me to find out where she 11 was working. And when we had that 12 conversation, I did say to her that she had to 13 complete the training, you know, because we got 14 to make sure we are in line with everything for 15 program review. But I never gave her anything 16 to sign. At all. 17 MR. : So, when she says you 18 specifically gave her this sign-in sheet, you 19 are saying you did not? 20 MS. : No. I did not. And I 21 definitely didn't tell her not to date it. 22 MR. : All right. So, when she 23 says that, you know, let's go back and read it. 24 She specifically says, "Because when I came 25 back from an injury, the lieutenant asked me to EFTA00117456 31 1 sign because when they had program review, they 2 need to show that I received the training, but 3 I never did. She just asked me to sign." So, 4 her saying that you asked her to sign that, is 5 inaccurate? 6 MS. : Yes, it is. 7 MR. : Okay. And are you 8 confident with that? Because this is, like, an 9 under oath. She was under oath, and you are 10 now under oath. So, now -- 11 MS. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : -- we have two 13 discrepancies of what happened. 14 MS. : Yes. I am confident with 15 that. 16 MR. : Do you recall, 17 specifically? Can you place yourself back into 18 that conversation? Do you remember 19 specifically this happening or not happening? 20 MS. : I remember specifically 21 speaking to her about it. And I told her she 22 had to complete the training, but I did not 23 have her sign anything. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : I didn't. I did tell her EFTA00117457 32 1 that, after she did the training, she was going 2 to have to sign the sheet. And I told her she 3 had to complete it because of program review. 4 I did do that. 5 MR. : Okay. Do you recognize - 6 hold on - this stuff that we are giving you 7 here. Can you just let us know what this 8 information is? And what the sign-in sheet is? 9 MS. : Okay. So, this is another 10 sign-in sheet for training. This one would be 11 for the -. Dr. was the chief 12 psychologist. So, that would be discussing 13 suicide training. 14 MR. : Just -. 15 MS. : This is -. 16 MR. : So, that one was suicide 17 prevention training? 18 MS. : This one was. Yes. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MS. : This is Dr. , again, 21 but this is a different training. This was in 22 2018. 23 MR. : Okay. So, the one that 24 we are on top, though, that is the sign-in for, 25 it says June 6, 2019. And then, again, on the EFTA00117458 33 1 bottom, it says T. Noel. 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : And then, does it have a 4 date next to that one, too? 5 MS. : June 26. 6 MR. : Okay. So, that was also 7 the June 26, 2019. So, it looks like she had 8 the quarterly, the quarterly post training, or 9 quarterly, what do you call it -- 10 MR. : SHU training. 11 MR. : -- SHU training. And 12 then, the suicide prevention training, both 13 signed on the same date. 14 MS. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : Did you give that - 16 either one of those - sign-in sheets directly 17 to Ms. Noel? 18 MS. : No. 19 MR. : No. 20 MS. : Because Dr. would 21 keep her own sheet. And also, the SHU 22 lieutenant, who completed the training, that 23 person would get a copy of this, as well. And 24 then, when everything was completed, they would 25 give me back the sign-in sheets. EFTA00117459 34 1 MR. : Okay. So, if this was 2 all completed, if the training was done on June 3 6, 2019, when would you get the sign-in sheets? 4 MS. : Whenever the SHU lieutenant 5 brought them to me. Brought them back to me. 6 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 7 do you believe it would have been some time 8 shortly after June 6, 2019? 9 MS. : Well, I don't remember that. 10 But I do remember, because these other people 11 who weren't there, they had to do the exact 12 same thing, and the SHU lieutenant got with all 13 of all them, and had them all do their 14 training, and sign for their days. I didn't do 15 any of these people's. 16 MR. : Okay. So, and the fact 17 that, when was the - prior to T. Noel - when 18 was the last date on that? 19 MS. : June, it looks the 23rd, and 20 then, June 20th. 21 MR. : Okay. So, the two prior 22 were both in the 20s. And you don't believe 23 you went direct to either of those two, either? 24 MS. : No. I didn't. 25 MR. : So, do you -- EFTA00117460 35 1 MS. : I didn't. 2 MR. : -- do you believe that 3 Lieutenant - would it have been Lieutenant 4 that would have provided this to you, when it 5 was all done? 6 MS. : Yes. 7 MR. : Okay. So, he wouldn't 8 have provided that back to you until after June 9 26, 2019, after Ms. Noel signed? 10 MS. : No. Because at the time, if 11 I had this, then the last person before her was 12 June 23rd. So, took care of all of these 13 people, and then, he gave it back to me. I 14 can't remember if he just came back after the 15 6th, when everybody was done, and got it. Or 16 if he came back. Because I kept them in a 17 binder. I keep all of these in a binder, in 18 the admin lieutenant's office. So, all he had 19 to do was just come get the binder. You see 20 what I'm saying? So, he could have came and 21 got it, had them do whatever they needed to do. 22 And the sheet would have already been in the 23 binder. And then, he keeps the copy from Dr. 24 as well. They are supposed to keep a 25 binder in the SHU lieutenant's office, with EFTA00117461 36 1 these same forms. 2 MR. : Okay. So, on this 3 specific training, this is, these were the 4 statements that were made, I said, "So, there 5 is another training that you - it says that you 6 conducted on also June 26th, 2019, for SHU 7 suicide prevention training. Did you also not 8 receive that training?" Ms. Noel responded, 9 "Yeah. I didn't." I responded, "You did not 10 receive that training?" She said, "No." I 11 said, "Did you receive -. 12 So, there's slides in the back that show 13 that the training, shows the training and how 14 they conducted it. Did they provide you with 15 those slides?" And she responded, "No because 16 I wasn't there." I said, "You weren't there?" 17 And she responds, "I was out on injury." I 18 said, "Okay. Can you - when were you out on 19 injury? What were the dates?" And she 20 responded, "From March 2019 to I came back in 21 June. So, when I came back in June, that's 22 when I was told to sign this." Again, is this 23 - you believe it's Lieutenant that 24 actually told her to sign it? 25 MS. : It should have been. Yes. EFTA00117462 37 1 MR. : Did you -- 2 MS. : Yes. 3 MR. : -- but it was not you? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : And are you confident it 6 wasn't you? 7 MS. : To my recollection, yes. 8 MR. : Okay. Shortly there 9 later, I said, "But when you came back, was it 10 around the 26th when they asked you to sign 11 those?" And she responded, "I came back in 12 June. I don't recall the date exactly." I 13 said, "Okay." She said, "But I remember the 14 day I came back into work, and the lieutenant 15 asked me to go see Lieutenant . And she 16 asked me to sign, and I said, but I wasn't 17 here. I was out on injury. 18 And she said she's aware, but they need me 19 to sign for program review." I said, "Okay." 20 She said, "So, I signed." And I said, "So, 21 both trainings, when you signed, they didn't 22 actually ever provide you anything?" She said, 23 "No." I said, "Verbally? Electronically? 24 Nothing?" She said, "No." I said, "Okay. And 25 that was on the date that was signed that that EFTA00117463 38 1 happened?" Ms. Noel said, "Actually, she told 2 me not to date it. 3 I remember when I was signing. She said, 4 don't date it." And I said, "But you dated it 5 anyway? Did you have a conversation about 6 that?" And she said, "No." I said, "After you 7 dated it, she didn't say, why did you date it? 8 Or anything like that?" She responded, "No." 9 So, she is saying all of this time, that 10 specifically, that the lieutenant said to go 11 see you, and that you had her sign this 12 information. 13 MS. : That is not true. 14 MR. : It's not accurate? 15 MS. : No. It's not. And if the 16 lieutenant that was on shift would have told 17 her to come to see me, it was her first day 18 back. So, when they returned to work for a 19 work-related injury, they are supposed to bring 20 in a note from the doctor, clearing them to be 21 back at work. So, she would have came to see 22 me, to give me a copy of that note. Because in 23 order for her to work, she had to have that 24 note from her doctor. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00117464 39 1 MS. : That, and also, too, 2 probably to find out about what her schedule 3 would be, or where she is supposed to be 4 working at. That's the only thing that I could 5 think of. But we did have the conversation 6 about the training. But at no time did I ask 7 her to sign anything. 8 MR. : Okay. So, what 9 conversation did you have about the training? 10 MS. : I just told her that she 11 needed to complete the training. Because part 12 of her post - if I remember right - it was a 13 relief post. So, I don't think she was 14 assigned to SHU every day. 15 MR. : Now, did you maybe tell 16 her sign this training, sign this form, because 17 I have a program review up. Go do your 18 training. Don't date it because you didn't do 19 the training yet? 20 MS. : No. I would have never told 21 her to sign it, because she hadn't completed 22 it. And I definitely would not have told her 23 not to date it. 24 MR. : Okay. Because again, she 25 is saying - and this is a question I asked - EFTA00117465 40 1 "But did you do this per the direction of your 2 supervisor?" She said, "Supervisor, yes." And 3 I said, "So, did she specifically say you must 4 sign this?" Ms. Noel said, "Yes." And I said, 5 "Okay. And again, that was ?" And Ms. 6 Noel said, " ." So, she is claiming, 7 under oath, under penalty of, you know, you 8 know, of perjury, which is a criminal offense, 9 which is - again - you are under oath. 10 MS. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : That you specifically 12 told her to sign this. That's where I just 13 wanted -. I don't want to trip up, because 14 this right now is more of an administrative 15 thing. 16 MS. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : I don't want to bring it 18 to a criminal. 19 MS. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : If, you know, under oath, 21 under the penalties of perjury, which is 22 statute 18 USC 1001, false statements, are you 23 confident that you did not ask her to sign 24 this? 25 MS. : Yes. I am. EFTA00117466 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 MR. : Okay. So, even she has her attorneys present when happening, and she is specifically throughout all of these questions, though this is saying, MS. : Yes. Because she dealt with 7 me the whole time that she was out of work. 8 And again, like I said, I believe I got her to 9 talk to her on her first day back to work. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MS. : So, I do not, at no time, 12 ever recall telling her to sign anything, or 13 not date anything. I do remember telling her 14 she had to complete this training, because she 15 was assigned to SHU. If you guys look at these 16 other dates, for all these other people, and 17 I'm just saying -- 18 MR. : Mm—hmm. 19 MS. : I know they don't have 20 anything to do with it. They're all the same 21 just like hers. When they came back, the SHU 22 lieutenant got with them - and these are all 23 different dates, same thing - to have them 24 complete this training. I didn't have them do 25 it. EFTA00117467 42 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 MR. 2 MR. : 3 Can you verify 4 MS. : 5 MR. : 6 MS. : 7 MR. 8 and speak with he is going to MS. : I would hope so. MR. : Okay. But you are absolutely confident - under oath, again, you could be prosecuted if we find out you are lying - that this, you did not have her sign these documents? MS. : No. I did not have her sign these. I do not recall having her sign these at all. MR. : Okay. MS. : At all. MR. : And who do you believe had her sign these? MS. : It should have been the SHU lieutenant. MR. : Okay. : Okay. Are those all SHU employees? At the time -- -- at the time. -- yes, they were. : All right. So, if we go Lieutenant , do you believe say, yes, I had her sign this? EFTA00117468 43 1 MS. : That took care of that. 2 MR. : And again, do you 3 believe, it sounded like you said that the SHU 4 lieutenant could have come into your office, 5 retrieved these documents, and -- 6 MS. : Well -- 7 MR. : -- had her sign it? 8 MS. : -- the binder for the sign- 9 in sheets for the Special Housing Unit was in 10 my office. Because I kept up with all of 11 these. I maintained all of these forms, just 12 to make sure that everybody stayed up on what 13 it was that they were supposed to do, because 14 when we have our program review, those 15 documents would be reviewed in the office that 16 I worked in. We all were responsible for them. 17 It wasn't just me. My office was opened. 18 Every lieutenant had a key to it. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MS. : And I am not at all saying 21 that would have come in my office and 22 taken some something that he shouldn't have 23 taken, or whatever the case may be. I remember 24 having a conversation with to tell him, 25 when these people come back to work, they need EFTA00117469 44 1 to get their SHU training done, because all of 2 these people were out on the 6th, when the 3 training occurred. 4 MR. : Okay. And you recall 5 specifically telling Ms. Noel, get the training 6 done? 7 MS. : I recall specifically 8 telling her she had to do the training. 9 MR. : Okay. But you are 10 positive you didn't have her sign those 11 documents? 12 MS. : Yes. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : As far as I can recall, yes, 15 sir, I am positive I didn't. 16 MR. : Okay. Great. So, I 17 guess we'll have to revisit that with 18 Lieutenant . Sorry. I hand it back to 19 you. I just figured it was better for me to 20 read it. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Being that I was the one 23 on this transcript. 24 MR. : No problem. It looks like we 25 covered some of them. So, just to clarify, who EFTA00117470 45 1 was responsible to make sure that all employees 2 received the trainings? 3 MS. : You mean for SHU? 4 MR. : For the SHU. Who was 5 responsible to make sure that all the SHU 6 employees received mandatory quarterly SHU 7 training? 8 MS. : The SHU lieutenant. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MS. : And me. And me. 11 MR. : You. 12 MS. : Because I scheduled it. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. And if they are not - if those employees - are not there, when they come back, who is responsible to make sure that, hey, listen, it's taking - they receive the training? I know you mentioned that you make sure that they come back and sign the sheet. But who actually is supposed to give them the training? MS. : Well, I didn't say that they come back and sign the sheet. I said that, when they come back, they are supposed to complete the training, and then sign the sheet. MR. : Okay. So, and the SHU EFTA00117471 46 1 lieutenant is responsible to make sure that 2 they get the training? 3 MS. : Yes. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. MS. : And the administrative lieutenant. However, it's not written anywhere. As the administrative lieutenant, that's just what I did. All administrative lieutenants don't do that. Because SHU is SHU. It belongs to the SHU lieutenant. But because we had gotten a bad rating on our previous reviews, pretty much, they had me maintaining all of our paperwork. So, I kept med trips. I kept rosters. I kept daily security inspections. And whatever paperwork that had to do with correctional services, I was responsible for maintaining it. So, this was something that I just maintained on my own, to make sure that it got done. So that, the department, as a whole, when the time came, wouldn't get written up for it. MR. : Is there a possibility that, when Noel came back to work, you told her, hey, listen, sign off on the paperwork of the sign- in sheet, saying that you received the training EFTA00117472 47 1 because you are back to work, sign off on it, 2 and have the SHU lieutenant provide you the 3 training? 4 MS. : No. 5 MR. : Is it standard practice for 6 employees to sign the sheet, even if they never 7 received the training? 8 MS. : No. It shouldn't be. I 9 don't have them do that. 10 MR. : Has there been instances, 11 that you are aware of, where an employee was 12 signed the sheet, and that employee never 13 received the training? 14 MS. : Not that I am aware of. 15 MR. : This is the first incident 16 you -? 17 MS. : Well, this is the first time 18 I'm even hearing about any of this, with her. 19 Because I knew she came back to work, and she 20 was supposed to have the training. 21 MR. : Do you know if she 22 conducted the training or not? 23 MS. : I have no idea. 24 MR. : So, you are not even sure 25 if she did or not? EFTA00117473 48 1 MS. : No. Hmm-mm. 2 MR. : And being that -. 3 MR. : But when you spoke with 4 her about the need for her to take the 5 training, tell me a little bit more about that 6 conversation. What did she say? 7 MS. : She just said, okay. Noel 8 really didn't talk -. Can I -? 9 MR. : Go ahead. 10 MS. : Okay. 11 MR. : Please. 12 MS. : Oh, okay. 13 MR. : You know, again, this is 14 15 MS. : Noel really didn't talk a 16 lot. To any of us. You know what I'm saying? 17 She would come to work, when she would come to 18 work. And she would do whatever it is that she 19 needed to do, but as far as my interactions 20 with her, it was really only during her times 21 of needing some time off, or scheduling. She 22 may have needed to work a different shift, or 23 whatever the case may be. So, we really never 24 actually had long conversations or anything 25 like that. It was always business, like, as it EFTA00117474 49 1 should be. You know what I'm saying? 2 Supervisor to subordinate. And like I said, 3 when she came in that day, if I remember right, 4 it was her first day back. 5 MR. : That you had a 6 conversation with her? 7 MS. : Yeah. Because she would 8 have had to give me that letter, saying that 9 she was cleared to be back at work. 10 MR. : But during that day, is 11 that when she signed these documents? 12 MS. : I don't know. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MS. : I'm not sure if it was 15 during that day or not. I talked to her, and I 16 told her she had to complete the SHU training. 17 I do remember saying that to her. 18 MR. : Okay. Now, this is going 19 to be the last part of the transcript that I 20 read, where I said to Ms. Noel, "And what do 21 you - now that you have experience this - what 22 do you blame that on? Do you also blame it on, 23 like, poor management, or, like, the lack of 24 manpower? What are your thoughts on that?" 25 Ms. Noel responded, "It's both, but every time EFTA00117475 50 1 something happens, the officers get in trouble. 2 And the problem is, it starts from the top. 3 Because if my supervisor is telling me to 4 falsify documents, and I do it, I'm in trouble. 5 But Lieutenant got promoted. You 6 understand? Like, the problem starts from the 7 top, and it comes all the way down." so, she 8 maintained, throughout the entire interview - 9 this is now page 449 of the interview -- 10 MS. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- this was you. You 12 specifically. So, if you are saying you 100 13 percent didn't do this, why would she say that 14 you were the one? Does she have an axe to 15 grind with you? Is there something - 16 MS. : We had no problems with each 17 other, that I'm aware of. But again, we 18 didn't, we didn't have regular interactions 19 with each other. Because when she came to 20 work, she was not on my shift. First of all. 21 When she was at work, she barely ever worked 22 the day shift, if I remember. And I was at 23 work during the day shift. If she had an issue 24 on the shift with anything, she wouldn't have 25 come to me. EFTA00117476 51 1 She would have went to the operations or 2 the activities lieutenant. She was injured, if 3 I remember, I think it was her ankle, but I'm 4 not sure what it was. But once she got 5 injured, that's really more when our 6 interactions started with each other, because 7 she was out of work for such a long time. But 8 we didn't have any problems with each other 9 whatsoever. 10 MR. : So, why do you believe 11 that she would have stated, with such clarity, 12 that you had her sign those documents, as 13 opposed to Lieutenant , who we discussed 14 also, with regarding being the SHU lieutenant? 15 MS. : Probably because I was the 16 first person that spoke to her about it, and 17 when she came back to work. That would be the 18 only thing that I can think of. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you think she 20 took it on herself to, then, sign it? After 21 the conversation with you, as opposed to you 22 actually physically handing her the documents? 23 MS. : No. I didn't give her the - 24 - 25 MR. : That's -- EFTA00117477 52 1 MS. : -- the forms to sign. 2 MR. : -- right. That's what 3 I'm saying is, like, do you think, in her mind, 4 you said you needed to conduct the SHU training 5 and sign the form, or something to that effect. 6 Then she took it on herself to just go sign the 7 form, without ever actually taking the 8 training? 9 MS. : I couldn't answer that, sir. 10 I'm sorry. I don't know what she was thinking. 11 MR. : Yeah. No. I mean, we 12 just have to -. So, if she is stating this, 13 and if we go to Lieutenant , and he says, I 14 didn't have her sign it, I'm just trying - 15 we're just, we got to try to, you know -- 16 MS. : Because -- 17 MR. : -- as you know, with this 18 investigation, there are a ton of different 19 elements. 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : This is just one of many. 22 MS. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : But we have to reconcile 24 them. 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00117478 53 1 MR. : So, you know, all of this 2 will be written up in, like, a, you know, a 3 report and all that. So, it's just one of 4 those things that we have got to make sure that 5 we have, to the best of our ability, a 6 reconciliation for each element, and this has 7 to do with a staff member not receiving the 8 proper training, and also, according to her, 9 being instructed by her supervisor to 10 specifically sign when the supervisor knew that 11 she didn't conduct the training. 12 MS. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : So, again, just, I do 14 want to emphasize that this is under oath. So, 15 this would be, like, if you were in a court of 16 law. 17 MS. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : That you are confident 19 with your statements. 20 MS. : Mm-hmm. Yes. I don't - 21 like I said - I don't recall having her sign 22 anything. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Because I wouldn't have done 25 that. I told her she had to complete the EFTA00117479 54 1 training. Now, once she left my office and 2 once she got up in SHU, and got with the SHU 3 lieutenant, I don't know if the training 4 ever completed. 5 MR. 6 MS. 7 MR. 8 MS. MR. Right. I wouldn't At -- I wouldn't. know that. was 9 : -- at the time, though, 10 on June 26th, 2019, would have this sign-in 11 sheet been in that folder that you referred to? 12 MS. : Yes. It would have been in 13 that binder that I had. It should have been, 14 anyway, because -- 15 MR. : All right. 16 MS. : -- again, once the SHU 17 lieutenant completed the training, and got both 18 of the sheets back from the chief psychologist, 19 then they would bring me the sheets, and then I 20 would put them in the binder. So, these other 21 people that did their training, he had them 22 sign off the sheet that we already have from 23 the 6th. And then, he knew where the binder 24 was. And again, I'm not saying that he did 25 anything at all. I'm saying. But I kept EFTA00117480 55 1 these forms, and I had them in the binder. And 2 I do not, at no time, remember telling her to 3 sign anything that she didn't do the training 4 for. 5 MR. : And did she, would she 6 have had the ability to - sorry, the ability - 7 to obtain those sign-in sheets from your binder 8 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : -- and sent them herself? 11 MS. : No. 12 MR. : No. She couldn't have 13 done that? 14 MS. : No. 15 MR. : So, either yourself or 16 Lieutenant would have had to have actually 17 obtained those sheets, and asked her to sign? 18 MS. : Yes. 19 MR. : So, one of the two of you 20 had to have actually had her sign those forms? 21 MS. : Yes. 22 MR. : And that just goes back 23 to the confusion of, why would she specifically 24 say you, and - again, throughout - with such 25 clarity, as opposed to Lieutenant . EFTA00117481 56 1 MS. : I don't know. I do not 2 know. And to be honest with you, if she spoke 3 to about it, and whatever transpired 4 between the two of them, as far as the training 5 is concerned, I don't know. But she did sign 6 that form on her own, and she wasn't forced to 7 do it, and I didn't threaten her with program 8 review. I did explain to her that everybody 9 that was in SHU had to complete that training, 10 so that we wouldn't get written up for program 11 review. 12 MR. : And when you had that 13 conversation with her, were either the binder, 14 were those sheets on your desk? 15 MS. : No. Not that I -. No. Not 16 that I remember. 17 MR. : Okay. So, it wasn't, 18 like, you know, this sheet, this sign-in sheet 19 is here, and you were just having this 20 conversation, like, you know, not telling her 21 sign here, date here, but saying, like, you 22 need to complete this training, and it would be 23 sitting right there for her to sign? 24 MS. : No. I would have told 25 she's back, she got to do the SHU training. EFTA00117482 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 MR. : Okay. And did she sign either of these training documents that are on the table, in your presence? MS. : No. Not that I -. No. Not that I recall, she didn't. No. MR. : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. MR. : No problem. Now, this training takes about four hours? MS. : It's set up for four hours It doesn't have to be four hours. Maybe the SHU lieutenant can go over everything with him, and then, they will go up to SHU, do shake downs, or whatever. But it's set for a four- hour block, and that's in case somebody comes in late, or whatever. MR. : But you should at least take two hours, three hours, to go over all the material? MS. : Well, not necessarily. Because if she - and I'm sorry, I said - if she was coming back to work, he could have just had her review the slide show. You know what I'm saying? Everything else, the only thing that is actually required that they do is the slide show. Everything else is kind of just us EFTA00117483 58 1 adding to it. They got to do the slide show. 2 And they're supposed to do the suicide 3 prevention training. And site does the suicide 4 prevention training. 5 MR. : Now, the slide show, would he 6 have manually handed it to her, or is that 7 something he would have emailed her? 8 MS. : He wouldn't have to email 9 that to her. She can log in and on her own. 10 It's in the - well, at the time, it was, it's 11 called Blue (Phonetic Sp. *00:46:13) now. The 12 training site for the courses. But I'm not 13 sure, then, if they were using Blue. I think 14 it was just in the G-drive for annual training. 15 Saved in the computer, on the - for annual 16 training. 17 MR. : On, like, the shared drive? 18 MS. : Yes. They had an annual 19 training folder that had, you know, everything, 20 all of the slide shows and stuff in it. So, 21 the people who would have come back to work, 22 they should have reviewed that, at least, and 23 that would have sufficed for them having the 24 training. 25 MR. : So, that was going to be my EFTA00117484 59 1 next set of questions. I mean, there is one, 2 two, three, four, five, six people that came 3 back. And if the lieutenant had to sit down 4 with them, that's quite a bit of them. 5 MS. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : That he would have to spend 7 doing the trainings all over again. 8 MS. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Is there a possibility he 10 would have said, hey, listen, I'll do it for 11 all the employees, together, when they come 12 back, and just pushed off to training? 13 MS. : I couldn't -. I don't think 14 so. 15 MR. : No, I would say -- 16 MR. : Or he would have just handed 17 18 MR. : -- no, it's, they dated 19 it on the date they are saying that they did 20 the training. 21 MR. : Unless they were instructed, 22 hey, sign off on the paperwork, and -. Or do 23 you think Lieutenant actually just sent 24 them an email, or told them go on the shared 25 drive, pull up the slides, and just read it. EFTA00117485 60 1 MS. : I don't know. I couldn't -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MS. : -- answer for what he did. 4 MR. : But that's not something you 5 would instruct them? That would be Lieutenant 6 ? 7 MS. : Yeah. I don't -. I don't 8 do it at all. I don't do the training for 9 them. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : And who was actually 12 So, you said both of you, though, are 13 responsible to ensure that the training was 14 conducted? 15 MS. : Well, it depends, as far as 16 I am concerned, I only was responsible for it 17 because I just made sure it got done. The 18 person who is supposed to make sure it gets 19 done is the SHU lieutenant. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MS. : Who, and that changes 22 quarterly. So, whoever that lieutenant is, or 23 whoever that lieutenant was, that is who would 24 be responsible for doing the training. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00117486 61 1 MR. : Based on your education 2 experience, is there anything wrong with 3 employees signing documents, stating they have 4 received training when they have not? 5 MS. : Yeah. They shouldn't do 6 that. That's lying. 7 MR. : Just, is there anything that 8 could go wrong? Like, let's say they didn't 9 receive training, they go in and they are 10 supposed to do their duties as certain way, and 11 they don't do it. Would the training - based 12 on your training and experience, education -- 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- experience. 15 MS. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : What could go wrong? If they 17 go -. Like, Noel, that was her first time in 18 the SHU? 19 MS. : No. 20 MR. : She had it previously? 21 MS. : She worked up there because 22 she would work overtime sometimes up there. 23 People who work over, like I said before, 24 everybody doesn't get it. It's only the people 25 who are assigned to be up there. And she would EFTA00117487 62 1 work up there, just as a regular workday 2 sometimes, before she went out on her injury. 3 Or sometimes, overtime. So, that wasn't her 4 first time working in SHU. 5 MR. : But her first bid for the 6 SHU, was that a bid for the SHU? Like, where 7 she -. I know she did overtime, and she did, 8 she was assigned. But was she actually 9 assigned to the SHU, prior to this, based on 10 your knowledge? 11 MS. : I don't remember. Because 12 if I can remember when she started, I could 13 probably be able to answer that, but I don't 14 remember when she started. I don't. 15 MR. : Now, on these two 16 trainings - the mandatory quarterly SHU 17 training and the suicide prevention training - 18 are those trainings also covered in the annual 19 refresher training? 20 MS. : They're separate. 21 MR. : But what I mean is, so, 22 this is, it looks like these are separate, but 23 are those topics also covered in annual 24 refresher training? 25 MS. : Yes. They are. EFTA00117488 63 1 MR. : So, regardless, if she 2 did these specific trainings, would have she 3 had at least taken those trainings during 4 annual refresher training? 5 MS. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. So, at least in 7 2019, these trainings would have been conducted 8 by Ms. Noel? 9 MS. : Yes. They should have been. 10 MR. : You know, not these 11 specific ones, but she has already said she 12 didn't take those trainings. 13 MS. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : But she did take annual 15 refresher training. So, she would have at 16 least received the trainings that were 17 discussed during those two trainings? 18 MS. : Yes. Annual refresher 19 training is at the beginning of the year. 20 MR. : Okay. *00:50:03) 21 MS. : Every year. And I don't 22 remember when she went out on her injury. 23 MR. : In this case, the annual 24 refresher training was around March. 25 MS. : Okay. EFTA00117489 64 1 MR. : Does that sound right? 2 MS. : Yeah. Around February or 3 March. Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MS. : But again, I don't remember 6 when she went out on her injury. 7 MR. : The interview said she was 8 off in March. The end of March to June. 9 MR. : Yeah. I'm not sure about 10 it. I'm pretty sure she - you know that she 11 took the annual refresher training. So, just 12 point being, she should have at least been 13 trained on SHU training, as well as suicide 14 prevention? 15 MS. : Yes. 16 MR. : Okay. And if someone 17 doesn't, is out during the annual refresher 18 training, what happens in those instances? 19 MS. : When they come back to work, 20 they have videos sometimes, and they will video 21 the training for people that missed, or we have 22 makeup days for, if she comes back within that 23 meet of the makeup time, then she will do it 24 then, along with other staff members, who may 25 have missed it, or sometimes, if it's just one EFTA00117490 65 1 or two people, and there wasn't a video for 2 them to watch, then HR will shoot them an email 3 and let them know they got to go on, and log- 4 in, and take a look at the slide shows or 5 whatever the case may be. 6 MR. : Okay. Now, in this 7 instance, it says, do you remember having a 8 conversations with Ms. Noel regarding these 9 trainings? Do you know she needed to do annual 10 refresher training, or if she took it that 11 year? 12 MS. : I don't remember because I 13 don't remember, like, what you guys are saying, 14 she went out around March -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MS. : -- I don't know, because 17 most of the time -- 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:51:29) 19 her. 20 MS. : -- we would start annual 21 training in, like, February, like, the end of 22 January, around February. But I don't 23 remember. She would have been scheduled for it 24 on the daily rosters. On the quarterly 25 rosters. Not quarterly. The daily rosters. EFTA00117491 66 1 So, I don't remember if she went or not. 2 Because again, like I said, I don't remember 3 when she went out. 4 MR. : And it sounds like you 5 did remember her not -. You did remember her 6 needing to do this, though. So, what would 7 make you remember that versus an annual 8 refresher? 9 MS. : No. I don't remember when 10 she went to annual refresher, or if she did. 11 Because this happened when she returned to work 12 from her injury: 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MS. : So, annual refresher 15 training would have happened way, a while 16 before that. 17 MR. : So, I guess my point 18 being is, like, you were aware of when she came 19 back from her injury, that she had to do these. 20 So, if she had missed the annual refresher, 21 would you have also been aware that she needed 22 to do the annual refresher training? 23 MS. : Right. But that part of it 24 wouldn't have been me. That would have been HR 25 that would have got with her. Because HR is EFTA00117492 67 1 responsible for annual, making sure that 2 everybody completes it. I'm responsible for 3 scheduling everybody to go. 4 MR. : Okay. But in this 5 instance, under these, you are responsible for 6 making sure that they complete the quarterly 7 SHU training and the suicide prevention? 8 MS. : The SHU lieutenant is 9 responsible. All I do is schedule it. 10 MR. : Right. But I guess, why 11 would it have then, if he's responsible, why 12 would have you had to have that conversation 13 with Ms. Noel, and she got to make sure that 14 she does that SHU training? 15 MS. : Because when we would 16 schedule the training, when people would be 17 out, as they trickle back in, we have to be 18 cognizant, and make sure that they took the 19 training, and signed for it. Because all of 20 them had to do because it they were signed for 21 it on the quarterly roster. 22 MR. : Okay. So, that just goes 23 back to when you said not only take it, but 24 also sign for it. 25 MS. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00117493 68 1 MR. : How do you ensure that 2 they sign for it? 3 MS. : The SHU lieutenant has them 4 sign for it. When they do this training, I'm 5 not there. He has the sign-in sheets, and he 6 has them sign in that they completed the 7 training on the day that they do the training. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MS. : I just stored the sheets. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MS. : In my office. 12 MR. : And can you recall any 13 instance where you actually retrieved the sheet 14 and had an employee sign, that they did 15 training? 16 MS. : No. 17 MR. : No? So, that's just not 18 something you would do? 19 MS. : No. Because the SHU 20 lieutenant was responsible for that. 21 MR. : Okay. So -. 22 MS. : I just kept up with when 23 they came back to work. You know what I'm 24 saying? And on the time that they came back to 25 work, if they, if it was something that they EFTA00117494 69 1 were missing or whatever, even for, like, 2 firearms training, it's the same thing. When 3 they come back, I will coordinate it with Human 4 Resources, to get them out to the range, so 5 that they can go in SHU. 6 MR. : Okay. But you would 7 never have them sign that they did it? 8 MS. : No. 9 MR. : That's for any training? 10 MS. : Any training. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Have there been situations 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 where training was not -. Was to be -. Sorry. I will repeat that. Have there been situations where training was to be provided for employees, however, there were no trainers, and an employee never received the training they were supposed to? MS. : Not that I am aware of. MR. : So, there is always trainers available? MS. : Every lieutenant is an instructor, for what, you know, different things involving correctional services. So, there would never be an instance where there is EFTA00117495 70 1 not a trainer. They have -. And even during 2 annual refresher training - excuse me - they 3 have people that come from different 4 departments, that train, you know, on different 5 subjects. And then, they have backup people 6 for those people. 7 MR. : So, not -. Should there be a 8 situation where we talk to a C.O. and the C.O. 9 says, yeah, I went to that, I went there, I 10 signed in, I sat there, but no one was ever 11 there to teach us the class, or no one is ever 12 there to - sometimes wasn't there to actually 13 conduct the training, so they never received 14 the training. 15 MS. : That shouldn't be an 16 instance. No. 17 MR. : Would that be something that 18 you would be made aware of, if someone -? 19 Let's say you scheduled a trainer to come in 20 and teach the class. Would you be aware if the 21 trainer never showed up, or whether there was a 22 conflict -- 23 MS. : Yes. 24 MR. : -- who would be responsible 25 to schedule another trainer? EFTA00117496 71 1 MS. : Well, Human Resources would. 2 If it was annual training, Human Resources 3 would be responsible for scheduling another 4 trainer to come in. Just like when we have new 5 classes that start, Human Resources does the 6 agenda, the training courses, and they outline 7 who is going to teach what, on what day, what 8 block, what time, and they send that out to us, 9 to all of the instructors, to make sure that we 10 are there. As far as SHU training is 11 concerned, we wouldn't schedule SHU training if 12 there wasn't a SHU lieutenant available to do 13 the SHU training. So -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : -- we coordinate it with the 16 SHU lieutenant, to say, okay, the quarter is 17 going to start on this day, what day do you 18 want me to schedule your training? That's what 19 I would do, so that that person knew that they 20 would be there to conduct the training. 21 MR. : And you have never heard of 22 trainers never showing up, or people actually 23 not receiving the training? 24 MS. : No. 25 MR. : Okay. Anything else on the EFTA00117497 72 1 training? Because I'm going to jump -- 2 MR. : Yeah. Please do. 3 MR. : -- okay. Did you have any 4 interactions with inmate Jeffrey Epstein during 5 his time at the MCC? 6 MS. : No. 7 MR. : Were you working during the 8 incident between Epstein and inmate Tartaglione 9 on July 23rd, 2019? 10 MS. : The -. 11 MR. : Do you know who Tartaglione 12 is? 13 MS. : That was his roommate in 14 SHU. No. I wasn't. No. Because I normally 15 work the day shift, and I believe that incident 16 in the evening, or the midnight shift, or 17 something. 18 MR. : Okay. What was your 19 understanding about Epstein being required to 20 be housed with a cellmate? Did you know that 21 he was required to be housed with a cellmate? 22 MS. : When he came off of watch - 23 suicide watch - the first, that first time, 24 then psychology, I believe it was Dr. , if 25 I remember right, she - they will send us out EFTA00117498 73 1 an email to let us know this inmate is coning 2 off watch, he needs to be celled with a 3 cellmate. 4 MR. : And your understanding is, 5 Mr. Epstein had to be celled with a cellmate? 6 MS. : Yes. Now, if it changed, 7 because that was my understanding when he first 8 came off of watch, and if I'm not mistaken, I 9 think it may have been in July, I think it was, 10 I'm not sure, when he came off of watch that 11 first time. But she said he needed to have a 12 Bunkie that - I'm sorry, a roommate - then. 13 Now, after that, I have no idea if that 14 changed. 15 MR. : Do you know who was chosen to 16 be his cellmate? 17 MS. : No. I do not. 18 MR. : Okay. Anything? Were you 19 working on August 9th and 10th, 2019? 20 MS. : I don't -. Was that the day 21 of his suicide? 22 MR. : August 10th was when they 23 found him. 24 MS. : Okay. I was in Indiana. My 25 dad had had a stroke. EFTA00117499 74 1 MR. : I'm sorry. 2 MR. : I'm sorry to hear that. 3 MS. : And I saw it on TV. That's 4 how I was - I was in his hospital room with 5 him, and I saw it on TV - that's how I found 6 out. 7 MR. : So, you weren't there August 8 9th and 10th? 9 MS. : No. 10 MR. : Okay. Do you think Epstein 11 took his own life? 12 MS. 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 believe 16 MS. 17 life? 18 MR. 19 MS. 20 MR. : Okay. Do you have -. 21 Are you comfortable with all the answers that 22 you provided today? 23 MS. : Yes, I am. 24 MR. : Is there anything you 25 would like to revise while we are still on the : : Yes, I do. Why? : Do you have any reason to that he didn't take his own life? : That he didn't take his own : Yeah. : No, I don't. EFTA00117500 75 1 record? 2 MS. : No. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : No, sir. 5 MR. : Is there anything you 6 would like to add that we haven't discussed? 7 MS. : No, sir. 8 MR. : Is there anything else 9 that you wanted before? 10 MR. : No. Just ask -- 11 MR. : Oh. 12 MR. : -- these documents, because 13 we showed them to you, you are not testing 14 what's on it, you are just contesting that 15 these are the documents we showed. Can you 16 initial and put today's date on it? On the top 17 -- 18 MR. : You need -- 19 MR. : -- of each document. 20 MR. : Yeah. The top would be 21 great. 22 MS. : These two? 23 MR. : No. Well, not this first 24 one, but I think this -. So, some of these can 25 - or some of these, do they go with this? EFTA00117501 76 1 MS. : This is the slide show I was 2 talking about. 3 MR. : Okay. So, is this 4 suicide, the suicide training, and this one is 5 the SHU quarterly training? 6 MS. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Okay. So, if you can 8 just keep those with each other. 9 MS. : Okay. 10 MR. : And then, yeah, just sign 11 the sign-in sheets on the top, if you don't 12 mind. 13 MR. : So -- 14 MR. : Or initial and date. 15 MR. : initial and today's date 16 is the 27th. 17 MR. : So, 10/27/2021. And 18 again, that's just to -. Like, we have to 19 attach it to the record, saying that these are 20 the actual sheets that we reviewed. And if you 21 don't mind -- 22 MS. : These two? 23 MR. : -- I guess 24 MR. : Those two, yeah. 25 MR. : -- yeah. EFTA00117502 77 1 MS. : Okay. 2 MR. : Training, and the slide 3 shows. But those slide shows are for each 4 respective training? 5 MS. : Oh, this is suicide 6 prevention for Special Housing Unit. 7 MR. : Right. So, that would be 8 this one. Correct? With Dr. on the 9 top. 10 MS. : This is the same thing. 11 It's just a different -. No, it's not. It's 12 just a different -. This is a different 13 version of this. 14 MR. : Okay. So, they are both 15 suicide prevention. Neither of them are the 16 quarterly SHU trainings? 17 MS. : No. 18 MR. : Okay. Great. 19 MR. : This one is the first 20 MS. : No. None of -- 21 MR. : -- after that. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MS. : -- neither one of these is 24 the quarterly SHU training. 25 MR. : Okay. Perfect. Thank EFTA00117503 78 1 you so much. It is currently 12:25 p.m., on 2 Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. This is Senior 3 Special Agent , and I am 4 turning off the recorder. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00117504 79 CERTIFICATE I hereby certify that the foregoing pages represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00117505