EFTA00118867.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 SEPTEMBER 22, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00118867 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00118868 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : This is Special Agent • It's September 22nd. The time is approximately 12:50 p.m. MR. : 2021. MR. : 2021. My name is I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New York Field Office, and these are my credentials. MR. : Okay. MR. : This interview with unit manager, , is being conducted as part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General investigation. Again, today's date is September 22nd, 2021. The time is 12:51 p.m. This interview is being conducted at the Metropolitan Detention York. Also Agent, Center in Brooklyn, New present is DOJ/OIG Senior Special . This interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent Could everyone please identify themselves for the record, and spell your last name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special Agent? EFTA00118869 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : Senior Special Agent 4 MR. with the U.S. DOJ/OIG. And these are my credentials. My name is 5 . Last name, . I'm a unit 6 manager at with. MCC, TDY'd here, temporarily. 7 MR. : Okay. Thank you for 8 clarifying that. 9 MR. : At MDC Brooklyn. 10 MR. : Thank you. This is an 11 official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death 12 of inmate Jeffrey Epstein and the surrounding 13 circumstances. And you are being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ/OIG? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : Please review DOJ/OIG form 20 111-226/2. The form states, The United States 21 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 22 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employees 23 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 24 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 25 information as part of an investigation being EFTA00118870 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 2 General. This investigation is being conducted 3 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 4 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 5 performance failure and security failure." 6 MR. : And just so you're aware, 7 that's what we're writing on everybody that we 8 interview. 9 MR. : Okay. That's fine. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : No problem. 12 MR. "This is a voluntary 13 interview. Accordingly, you do not have to 14 answer any questions. No disciplinary action 15 will be taken against you if you choose not to 16 answer questions. Any statement you furnish 17 may be used as evidence in any future crimina: 18 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 19 proceedings, or both." The waiver states, "I 20 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 21 above and I am willing to make a statement and 22 answer questions. No promises or threats have 23 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 24 any kind has been used against me." Please 25 read the form, review the form. If you EFTA00118871 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 understand, please print your name and sign on 2 the right side. That's over here. That will 3 be your signature. Print your name right below 4 that. Yeah. This is Special Agent 5 , I'm signing as a signature of the 6 Office of the Inspector General, Special Agent. 7 MR. : And you understand, this 8 is a voluntary interview, you don't have to 9 answer our questions. You can stop it at any 10 time. Correct? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Perfect. Thank you. 13 MR. : The time is 12:54 p.m. As 14 Senior Special Agent, can you sign as a 15 witness, please? 16 MR. : Sure. 17 MR. • Thank you, sir. 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : This is Senior Special 20 Agent I'm signing as the 21 witness. Okay. 22 MR. : My phone is in there. 23 MR. : Oh. There you go. 24 MR. : Thank you. Before starting 25 the interview, I would like to place you under EFTA00118872 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 oath. Mr. can you please raise your 2 right hand? 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 5 truth and nothing but the truth during this 6 interview? 7 MR. : I do. 8 MR. : Thank you. You can put your 9 hand down. Please let me know if you do not 10 understand any questions, and I'll try to 11 repeat it, or rephrase it for you. What is 12 your current home address? 13 MR. : My current home address is 14 . Brooklyn, New 15 York. Apartment . 11209. 16 MR. : 11209. You showed me your 17 credentials. Can you show that to me one more 18 time? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Mr. is showing me his 21 U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of 22 Prisons ID. It has his picture, and it states 23 , Unit Manager, MCC New York 24 on it. Thank you for that. 25 MR. : Yup. EFTA00118873 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 MR. phone number? MR. is MR. • education? MR. college. : What is your current cell : My current cell phone number : What is your highest level of : High school and some MR. : What college? MR. : I went to, I studied at a Lincoln Technical Institute, and received a certificate there for HVAC, Heating and Plumbing. MR. : Is that in New York? MR. : That's in Lincoln Tech, as in Union. MR. : Union. Okay. MR. : Union, New Jersey. MR. : I understand. Do you have any military service? 21 MR. : Yes, I do. 22 MR. : What? 23 MR. : Four One years-ae Army, four 24 years active, and three years, nine months 25 National Guard. EFTA00118874 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Are you currently still in 2 the military, or 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : -- are you discharged? 5 MR. : Discharged. 6 MR. : Honorable? 7 MR. : Honorable discharge. 8 MR. : And what grade? 9 MR. : E-4. 10 MR. : Thank you for that. Thank 11 you for your service. And what was the enter 12 duty date with the BOP? 13 MR. : March 6, 1994. 14 MR. : And when did you graduate 15 from BOP training? 16 MR. : Hmm. 17 MR. : If you don't remember. 18 year? 19 MR. : Yeah. It was - yeah - 1 20 don't remember. 21 MR. : So, 1994. Around then. 22 MR. : I went in 1994. So, I had 23 to be, what, I had to go to Glynco after '94. 24 So, right around '94. Some time. 25 MR. : And you mentioned that you're EFTA00118875 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 currently TDY. As a unit manager over to the 2 MDC program. 3 MR. : That is correct. 4 MR. : And you were TDY from MCC? 5 MR. : That is correct. 6 MR. : When did you start at the 7 MCC? 8 MR. : I came here, I want to say, 9 around a month and a half ago because they're 10 remodeling MCC. So, as a unit manager, they 11 sent me over here, and there was a -. They 12 gave me a letter of, I want to say it said, not 13 temporarily, it said permanently TDY, until 14 further notice. 15 MR. : And your position in August 16 of 2019 was unit manager, also? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : And which units, again, were 19 you? 20 MR. : Unit. My unit was unit 11. 21 North 11 South. And 9 North at the time. 22 MR. : Do you recall being 23 interviewed by the OIG and the FBI regarding 24 the Epstein matter in August 2019? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00118876 LIMITED 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OFFICIAL USE 11 MR. : What I have in front of me is a 302. It's called a report, of investigation written by the FBI(Indiscernible *00:07:49), and written by the FBI, and I'm not going to read through the whole thing, but we're going to go through a few portions that we need clarification on. And we'll go from there. The paragraph that I'm starting with, it starts, the date of the memo is - date of entry - is 8/16/2019. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : Because the interview was on 8/12/2019. MR. : 8/12/2019. During the days" - I'm reading from the memo - "during the days prior to Epstein's death, ran into Epstein as he was being escorted downstairs to meet with his lawyers on either Wednesday or Thursday. Epstein told he needed to set up his pack and pin (Phonetic Sp. *00:08:27), which allows inmates to make social calls. However, Epstein had been unable to set it up because he was always meeting with his lawyers,—and was never in the SHU. Epstein asked to assist him because his normal EFTA00118877 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 unit manager was on leave." Who was his normal 2 unit manager? 3 MR. : His normal unit manager was 4 Unit Manager 5 MR. : ? 6 MR. -: . (Phonetic Sp. 7 *00:08:47). 8 MR. -. . . Okay. 9 MR. : Do you know how to spell 10 that last name? 11 MR. : Her name first name is • 13 MR. -: . Okay. 14 MR. : Thank you. 15 MR. : Yeah. Thank you. 16 MR. "Epstein." Sorry. 17 looked in the system and verified the only call 18 made by Epstein, from the MCC, was the three- 19 minute call given to inmates at the time of the 20 initial intaking to the facility. made 21 the request for Epstein, and obtained a paper 22 print out of his pack and pier—and provided it 23 to Epstein." When you provided to Epstein, was 24 it active? 25 MR. : He has to activate it. The EFTA00118878 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 actual inmate has to activate it. Any time we 2 give an inmate a pack and pin, the inmate has 3 to activate it. 4 MR. : Okay. What do they have to 5 do activate it? 6 MR. : What they have to do is, 7 they would have to get on the phone, which, he 8 was in the SHU. So, an inmate can't make a 9 phone call for every 30 days. So, in general 10 population, they would get on the phone, they 11 would record their voice. Once they record, by 12 pushing 111, once they record their voice, then 13 it would actually activate, and then they can't 14 money on the phone, and then have to put money 15 on a phone, then they could use the phone. 16 MR. : So, when you gave him the 17 pack and pin, it was necessarily not active yet 18 19 MR. : That is correct. 20 MR. : -- he still had to active it. 21 MR. : That is correct. 22 MR. : And is it that he has to put 23 money on it, too? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00118879 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 MR. : And was there any way for 2 him to activate it, with his current situation 3 at the time being in the SHU? 4 MR. : Not that particular day, he 5 was requested a phone. It would have took him, 6 to actually activate it in SHU, and add money 7 to it, because when you activate it in Special 8 Housing Unit, let's say he activates it to 9 today. He would have to fill out a green form. 10 Usually, they would do it on the computer. 11 They don't have computers in SHU where they 12 could do it. So, they would have to fill out a 13 green form, which would have to be given to 14 them by a unit manager, or a unit team member. 15 That green form is then filled out by them. 16 And then, it's submitted to our ITS, which then 17 will put it, put the money on the money on his 18 account. I would say it would take, like, 19 three or four days, to a week, for it to 20 actually be activated. Be in his account. 21 MR. : And was he provided a 22 green form? 23 MR. : No. Because at that 24 particular time, I just gave him the pin and 25 pack. That was it. EFTA00118880 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, the pin and pack 2 couldn't be used, though, is what you're 3 saying? So, he had to activate it, and then 4 request a green form? 5 MR. : That is correct. When 6 inmates originally come in, we give them their 7 pin and pack then. So, it should have been 8 activated when he first came in the building. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you know why it 10 wasn't? 11 MR. : I wasn't his unit team. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : But it should have been 14 activated then. 15 MR. : Okay. So, but the way 16 that this went, was you provided him with it, 17 but what you provided him, he couldn't have 18 actually used? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : And at what point does he 21 request the green form? 22 MR. : I was going to actually, the 23 next day, give him that green form, because I 24 knew, I knew it was the next step. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00118881 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 MR. : He didn't even have to ask 2 for that, because I knew it was the next step. 3 Once again, he wasn't my inmate, but I knew, as 4 unit manager -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- what was the next step. 7 The next step was to give him the green form, 8 fill it out, say, hey, I want to put this 9 amount of money on my form. And then, give it 10 to him that way. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : Okay. So, the days 13 leading up to Epstein's death, you ran into him 14 and he asked for it. Did you give it to him 15 that day, or did you give it to him the day -? 16 MR. : No. That day. 17 MR. : The 9th? 18 MR. : Yup. 19 MR. : So, the day prior to him 20 being found in his cell? 21 MR. : Yup. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And correction. I'm sorry. 24 Because it's not done by computers, I want to 25 correct myself. So, an inmate can, once he EFTA00118882 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 gets on the phone, and record his voice, can do 2 it over the phone. I do apologize. He can 3 actually put money over the phone. 4 MR. : Okay. But there was no 5 phone for him to actually do that with? 6 MR. : No. Not, like, as far as a 7 phone to give it to, and let him record it. 8 No. 9 MR. : But being assigned to the 10 SHU is what I mean. SHU, and then also being 11 in the attorney conference. I mean, would he 12 have the ability to activate that? 13 MR. : In the attorney conference, 14 there was no, there is no phone in there. 15 MR. : In the SHU, though, could 16 he activated it? 17 MR. : In the SHU, we would have to 18 actually give him the phone, the phone would 19 have to be during his validation time. So, 20 that validation times starts in the time that 21 you come in the prison. So, say if he came in 22 on the 19th, his activation time would be the 23 19th. So, he can only use it every 30 days. 24 So, being that he never used the phone, he 25 would be in there with an activated, probably, EFTA00118883 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the next day. 2 MR. : But from within the SHU? 3 MR. : Within the SHU. If he was 4 given a phone. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : If he was given a phone. 7 Yeah. 8 MR. : And they do have phones 9 in the SHU, though. Is that what you're 10 saying? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. 13 MR. : Just a quick question. That 14 you mentioned it was on the 9th? 15 MR. : Well, it says on the days 16 leading up, he asked for it, but you said on 17 the actual 9th, is when you gave it to him. 18 So, you didn't give it to him the day that he 19 asked for it? 20 MR. : No. The actual date that he 21 asked for the form, because the same day he 22 asked for a phone, I gave him his -- 23 MR. : Oh. Because yeah, in the 24 interview that you had, you know, a couple days 25 later, on August 12th, 2019, you said, during EFTA00118884 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 the days prior to Epstein's death. So, days 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:13:34). 3 MR. : -- plural. 4 MR. : Right, right, right. 5 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:13:36) -- 6 MR. : So, that -. 7 MR. -- if it says either 8 Wednesday or Thursday. 9 MR. : Yeah. It was either 10 Wednesday or Thursday. I'm not sure what date. 11 MR. : So, not on the date that -- 12 MR. : So, not -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- on the 9th. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Either that Wednesday or 18 that Thursday, he was given that. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Because I like I said, he 21 was always in court, but when he asked me, I 22 came down, and I saw him with his lawyer. Sc, 23 I would, I gave him the actual pin and pack, to 24 set it up. 25 MR. : Oh, he was in court, or was EFTA00118885 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 he -? MR. MR. MR. MR. : No. He was downstairs. : In attorney conference? : Yeah. : Okay. 6 MR. : Sorry. So, it was given 7 to him on either Wednesday or Thursday. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Which would possibly -- 10 MR. : That would be 11 MR. : -- August 7th -- 12 MR. -: . -- August 7th -- 13 MR. : or the 8th. 14 MR. -: . -- or the 8th. 15 MR. : That is correct. 16 MR. : And when you gave it to him, 17 was his attorneys present? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : Because it states, "Epstein 20 was happy, as were his lawyers, who made a 21 thumbs up gesture." 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Okay. I'm going to, you 24 know, read on. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00118886 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : "On Friday, August 9th, 2019, 2 worked from 11:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., as 3 the duty officer. Epstein told he 4 wanted to make a call to his mother, but had 5 not yet been able to set up his pack and pin. 6 , he was ensuring his inmates have 7 family socialization as part of his job, so he 8 allows inmates having technical problems with 9 their pack and pin, a single 15-minute phone 10 call. told Epstein his watch was 11 ending at 7:00 p.m. that day, and the only way 12 he would be able to help him make a call was if 13 he ended his meeting with the lawyers earlier 14 than normal. checked and confirmed 15 that Epstein had not yet set up his pack and 16 pin." 17 MR. : That is correct. 18 MR. "At approximately 6:45 p.m., 19 found Epstein waiting for him, to make 20 that call." Where was he waiting? 21 MR. : In attorney conference, with 22 his lawyers. 23 MR. : Okay. And did you go in 24 there yourself, or did someone notify you, hey, 25 listen, he's waiting for you? EFTA00118887 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : No. They notified me in 2 attorney conference that he was ready because 3 they knew I was leaving at 7:00. 4 MR. : Okay. "Epstein was 5 handcuffed, searched, and brought upstairs. 6 did not know which cell was Epstein's, 7 and instead, put Epstein in the shower area, on 8 G-tier, which prefers for phone calls 9 because inmates are not locked in their cells 10 with the ability to pull the phone cord into 11 their locked cell, and use it to commit self- 12 harm. The phone cord barely reaches into the 13 shower, where the guards are also physically 14 present, with Epstein. used the first 15 outlet on the left, which is the legal line. 16 Epstein provided with the phone number 17 beginning with (347)." Now, before I go on, it 18 says you used the first outlet on the left, 19 legal line. Why the legal line? 20 MR. : Because they have two lines 21 in there. One is a legal line, and one is, 22 where he uses his phone. So, he - let's say if 23 I plugged it in there, he can't use it because 24 his pack and pin is not set up. On a legal 25 line, like we give right now, we give inmates EFTA00118888 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 in SHU legal calls. So, we actually have to 2 put in that code, in order for them to make 3 that call. So, there's a certain call where 4 the inmates don't have. 5 So, I would have to dial that - at that 6 time, the code was 91 - I would have to dial 7 91, the number, and then, you know, hey, hello, 8 boom, boom, boom. And then, give it to him. 9 Because he didn't have that code. So, he can't 10 You can just dial out on that phone. So, a 11 legal line is set up for us to give inmates 12 legal calls in SHU. 13 MR. : What is the difference 14 between the legal line and the other line? 15 MR. : The -. 16 MR. : Other than the fact that you 17 need the pin. Is there a difference between 18 both of them? 19 MR. : Yes. The difference is an 20 inmate needs a pin and pack to set up, and 21 that's social call. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : For him to make any social 24 calls to his family, which is, they're 25 recorded. That one is recorded. The legal EFTA00118889 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 line, if they want us to give an inmate a legal 2 call, you know, legal calls, by law, cannot be 3 recorded. So, we then make the call, hey, this 4 is Mr. , I have your client here. Boom, 5 boom, boom. Mr. Epstein, here's the phone, and 6 we give him the phone. And then, we don't stay 7 within that vicinity to listen to their phone 8 calls. And that's the same phone that they 9 have downstairs, in the R&D, when we give them 10 that call, we actually give it to them 11 downstairs, that three-minute call, and we give 12 it to them, we give them the phone right in 13 front of us. 14 MR. : It states, about that, 15 "Epstein told he wanted to make a call 16 to his mother." 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : But that was not a legal 19 call, though. 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : It was a personal call. 22 MR. : That is correct. 23 MR. : How come the legal line? 24 MR. : Because if he didn't have 25 something set up, how would he make a phone EFTA00118890 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 call? And this inmate been with us for a 2 while. And me, personally, if he was my 3 inmate, he would have had his pin set up. Why 4 his wasn't set up, I don't know. And I will 5 give you a good example. R. Kelly's up there, 6 his is set up. Why his wasn't set up, my job 7 as a duty Officer, is to make sure, if an 8 inmate, like, I'm there to sit for the warden. 9 So, if an inmate is asking, hey, can I get a 10 phone call? 11 He's been asking for this phone call for a 12 while. From his unit manager, from everybody, 13 and I'm, like, why does this inmate don't have 14 his pin and pack set up? I don't know. I'm 15 not his unit team. That's not my 16 responsibility to have other stuff. If it was, 17 it would have been set up. So, since I'm duty 18 officer, and I know that I verified that he 19 didn't make any phone calls, I said, okay, he's 20 just like any other inmate. It's only right to 21 make sure that he stays in contact with his 22 family, because that's part of the program 23 statement of inmates visiting their families 24 and keeping in contact with their family 25 members. He didn't have a line to make it on. EFTA00118891 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 So, I chose to make that decision, and make it 2 on a legal line. 3 MR. : Did you have a conference 4 with anyone above you, to get permission for 5 that, or was it just a decision made by you? 6 MR. : I made a decision because, 7 as a duty officer, remember, I work from 11:00 8 to 7:00, and I sit in for the warden. So, I 9 wouldn't call the warden at home and say, hey, 10 can I give him this legal call? Because that's 11 what the duty officer job is. The duty officer 12 is there representing the warden while she's 13 not there. So, basically, I'm over the 14 lieutenants, I'm over -. They would have to 15 contact me. When incidents happen, they have 16 to contact the duty officer. Then I contact 17 the region, the duty officer. 18 MR. : Oh, I see. 19 MR. : So, I don't contact the 20 warden. I contact the regional duty officer. 21 MR. : So, as the duty officer, you 22 report to the region? 23 MR. : That is correct. 24 MR. : Do you recall having a 25 conversation, though, with the captain, and him EFTA00118892 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 providing you the authority to do it? 2 MR. : No. Because with unit 3 teams, we never -. Giving an inmate a phone 4 call is not the captain's responsibility. 5 MR. : No, no, no. We had 6 information that you actually spoke with him in 7 the elevator, and he said, yeah, give him the 8 call. 9 MR. -: 10 MR. : Is that true? Yeah. 11 MR. : I don't - it's been so long 12 - I don't recall. I could have. But at the 13 same time, even if he would have said yes or 14 no, I would have gave him the call. Because I 15 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- because my, myself, just 18 being unit team, inmates, it is our 19 responsibility as a unit team, and our program 20 statement, that we make sure they keep in 21 contact with their family members, or whoever. 22 Mother. Father. Sister. Brother. We have 23 to. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : We have inmates that are - EFTA00118893 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 and I'm not trying to - but explain the fact, 2 inmates that indigent cndogcn (Phonetic Sp. 3 *00:20:19), that don't have no money. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : How will we give them a 6 phone call? We give them the phone call the 7 same way. Inmates who don't have money, 8 they're indigent cndogcn. So, if they need a 9 phone call, we have to give them a phone call. 10 We can't just not give them a phone call, but 11 we would call the number, give them the phone 12 call, let them speak to - and we give them a 13 15-minute phone call. 14 MR. : Is that on the legal 15 line, as well? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Because if they don't have 19 no money, -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- there's no way to put 22 money on it, but we don't give them money. 23 They're indigent cndogcn. And that will be on 24 their -- 25 MR. : What is the word you're EFTA00118894 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ending? MR. indigent cndogcn. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, that will be on their -. We would look on their money form. And basically, any - what they - how they determine if you're indigent cndogcn, they go by how much money you received in the last six months. They go by six months. So, if an inmate only received, I think it's, I want to say under $50 bucks, that inmate is indigent cndogcn. It's now in the unit team's responsibility. Also, we not just give them phone calls. An indigent cndogcn inmate could get up to five legal stamps, every month, and if he wants to do his lawyer, he can get up to five every week. MR. : Now -- MR. : Indigent Cnedege•n inmates. MR. : -- so, back to though. Does that - from what you said - does that mean, like, it wasn't even him, and his kind of, like, purview, or job responsibility, to tell you that you were authorized? MR. : I think me and had a rapport. We was a -. He was a captain there. EFTA00118895 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 An accomplished captain. So, we always spoke. 2 So, that was me giving him the courtesy. So, 3 if I did ask him, it was me giving him a 4 courtesy. I would have did that to any 5 captain. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : If you was the captain. 8 It's just me, hey, listen, I'm going to give 9 this guy a phone call. This, this, and that. 10 could have said to me, oh, I don't think 11 that's a good idea. And I would have said, 12 okay. Probably would have went to somebody 13 else. Like, an AW or somebody. But at the 14 same time, once again, there's nobody there 15 after 7:00. So, I'm the duty officer, I would 16 have made that decision and said, hey, I'm 17 going to give him a phone call. 18 MR. : Okay. And you don't 19 remember, though, having that conversation 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : -- with , and being 22 23 MR. : And I -- 24 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 25 *00:22:13). EFTA00118896 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. and I could have. I 2 could have had that conversation, because Like 3 I said, we talk on a regular basis. So, I 4 could have. 5 MR. : Just bringing yourself 6 back to that date, though, at 6:45, you meet 7 with him, the attorneys are in there. They 8 give you the thumbs up, and you're going back, 9 and you go into an elevator. Do you remember 10 at all being in the elevator with you? 11 MR. : No. I remember being 12 around because - and the reason why I know that 13 - is because doesn't have a lieutenant 14 to work. So, he was there late. He had a GS-9 15 working there that day. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : I do remember that. So, if 18 you have a GS-9 working, you have to stay, or 19 because you have to have a GS-11 and above. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : So, he was there that day. 22 I do remember that. 23 MR. : Okay. But you just don't 24 remember that conversation? 25 MR. : That is correct. EFTA00118897 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. Perfect. 2 MR. : Now that the call was given 3 on the legal line, was there any steps to make 4 sure, because it's supposed to be recorded, you 5 know, an inmate call, a social call, is 6 supposed to be recorded. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : He said he's calling his 9 mother. Was there any steps that you should 10 have taken to ensure that that call was 11 monitored somehow? 12 MR. : The only way we monitor it 13 is, I made the phone call, hello, how you 14 doing? I don't say, hey, is this his mother, 15 because my thing is, I could say, hey, is this 16 his mother, yeah, well, yes, this is his 17 mother. How do I know? So, a female answers, 18 I give him the phone. I let him talk for 15 19 minutes. I go sit down, let him talk for 15 20 minutes. When he's done with the phone call, 21 disconnect, and that's it. 22 So, we don't know. Let's say, right now, 23 I put an endogen inmate on a phone right now. 24 For 15 minutes. And I let him talk or 25 whatever. Do we know there's a three-way, or EFTA00118898 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 anything? We don't know. So, we sit down. We 2 time it. 15 minutes. And we're done. There's 3 no way to record that phone. There's no way to 4 pretty much his brother, or somebody else, can 5 get on the line. Anybody can get on that line, 6 at that particular time. 7 That was in place since I've been at MCC. 8 Has anything changed? The only thing changed 9 since I've been there is they took out all of 10 the legal lines, and they put them in one 11 particular area. They took them all out of 12 SHU, and they put one legal line in the back, 13 and they changed the code for that particular 14 reason. 15 MR. : What -? 16 MR. : And that wasn't after 17 Epstein. It took a while. 18 MR. : So, they do it in 19 response because people were doing that, was 20 what you mean? 21 MR. : The reason -. I'm one of 22 the ones who actually brought it to the 23 captain. The deputy captain, (Indiscernible 24 *00:24:36) captain, and the AW. And that was 25 (Indiscernible *00:24:39). Because on a EFTA00118899 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 regular basis, this is even after Epstein, even 2 after (Phonetic Sp. *00:24:43) was 3 there, she - and anybody would say, okay, 4 inmates, we want a phone call, you on a phone 5 restriction. 6 But remember, the warden is the only one 7 who could say, okay, give this inmate a phone 8 call. Okay. Give him a phone call. How can 9 you give him a phone call? He's on a phone 10 restriction. There's only two ways you could 11 give an inmate a phone call, and that is, you 12 can't give it to him on a social, you give it 13 to him on legal line. Yes, ma'am. She signs 14 the cop out. She approves it. Well, any 15 warden. I'm not just saying her. I'm not 16 trying to put. I'm just saying, that's how 17 it's done. That's how I've seen it done. 18 Once we get it approved, we give the 19 inmate the phone, on the legal line, hey, 20 hello, boom. Give it to him. Sit down in the 21 chair. Wait 15 minutes. Go back. Hey, you - 22 give him two minutes - hey, you have two 23 minutes left and that's it. Take the phone 24 from the inmate. We don't know that person is 25 EFTA00118900 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So, you are 2 supposed to 3 MR. : -- because (Indiscernible 4 *00:25:32). 5 MR. : -- you're supposed to sit 6 there with them, though. Correct? 7 MR. : No. There's nothing saying 8 that. That's just, like, sit there and do 9 what? 10 MR. : Oh, so, everything that 11 we've been told is that, if you give the person 12 a call, on a legal line, if it's not the 13 attorney, you're supposed to sit there and 14 monitor the call, because it's not being 15 recorded. 16 MR. : Well, they -. And since 17 I've been there, and that's the reason why I 18 asked them to take it out. Because how you 19 putting somebody on a range, and saying that, 20 hey, this person -. If that's the case, then 21 let's do it the right way. The right way -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. is to belly chain the 24 inmate, take him out. Okay? This is the right 25 way. Take him out - because that's what we do EFTA00118901 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 down there - you take him out. You pull the 2 inmate out. You put the inmate in a secluded 3 area. You make the phone call. On speaker. 4 Because that's how we do it downstairs. And 5 then, you give it to him on speaker. And then, 6 you let him -. If he wants his 15-minute phone 7 call, he will talk to whoever he wants to talk 8 to on speaker. 9 That's how Epstein received his first 10 phone call. It's a three-minute phone call on 11 speaker. So, the BOP and everybody else could 12 say, this is the way to do it. That's not the 13 proper way. The proper way to make a phone 14 call, for an inmate, is to have that inmate 15 secluded, because these guys can hear, too. 16 So, you don't know what he's saying. He could 17 be crying for his death. And you got other 18 inmates right there. In the next cell who 19 could hear him. Oh, this person is doing this 20 to me. That. 21 So, the proper way is to bring the inmate 22 out, put him in a belly chain, because then he 23 has to be cuffed in the front. Put him on the 24 phone, with a counselor or unit team, and put 25 him on speaker. That's the proper way. EFTA00118902 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I'm going to finish the 2 paragraph. 3 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 4 MR. : I know. I'm just -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 7 *00:27:14). 8 MR. : And before we go -- 9 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:27:14). 10 MR. : -- just one question, 11 though. Is it pin and pack, or pack and pin? 12 MR. : It's either way. 13 MR. : Oh, okay. 14 MR. : You could say it. Because 15 it's a pin and pack, pack and pin. It's - 16 yeah. 17 MR. : It's all, and it's 18 interchangeable? 19 MR. : Yeah. Because one, your 20 pin is a different number, and your pack is a 21 different number. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : When you pick up the phone, 24 they're going to say, hey, say your name, and 25 enter your pack number. You enter your pack EFTA00118903 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 number, and then it's going to say, enter your 2 pin. That's, like, a four-digit pin. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : I'm going to read the rest of 5 it. "Epstein provided with the phone 6 number beginning with (347). dialed 7 the number, and a male picked up the phone. 8 handed the phone to Epstein, and heard 9 him say, hey, how you doing? How is 10 everything? then left because his 11 watch was over, and Epstein was being guarded 12 by SHU C.O.s and T. Noel, and II 13 from internal. described 14 Epstein as very happy that he was able to make 15 a phone call." 16 MR. : That is correct. 17 MR. : Now, can you walk us through. 18 So, once he brought him up. Right? And you 19 put the legal line in -- 20 MR. : They brought him out. 21 MR. you dialed -. 22 MR. : I just walked up with the 23 internal. Internal. All inmates have to be 24 walked by an internal. So, , myself 25 escort him up. We brought him up. He was EFTA00118904 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 already in chains already. So, I mean, in the 2 cuffs. Bring him up. Go to the shower. Take 3 him out the cuffs. Put him and secure him. 4 Take the cuffs off. Once again, the legal line 5 can't fit to where the inmate could get 6 everything. He just has a handle. So, we dial 7 the number. Hello? Give it to him. And once 8 that's at 7:00, I told the officers, hey, make 9 sure he get his 15-minutes, and after that, 10 he's done. was there. They was, like, 11 okay, no problem. And that was it. 12 MR. : So, you told Noel and 13 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : -- and was also 16 there, that, after 15 minutes, cut off the 17 call? 18 MR. : That is correct. 19 MR. : Did you give them 20 instructions on listening to the phone call at 21 all? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : Where was - this is G-tier 24 where was G-tier compared to the officer SHU 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00118905 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 MR. : -- and the officer desk? If 2 you're looking at the desk, where is it? 3 MR. : Let's say the desk is by me. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay? You go in, and the 6 desk is me, you have tier, this is the first 7 tier. And this is the, with the door. So, 8 it's, G-tier is over here. 9 MR. : Behind the desk? 10 MR. : No. The desk is here. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : So, I could see 13 MR. : All right. 14 MR. : I could see G-tier. So, 15 G-tier is here. I could see it. 16 MR. : All right. Okay. 17 MR. : Yeah. And you could see G- 18 tier. 19 MR. : And when you walk up G-tier, 20 where is the shower? 21 MR. : Right there. 22 MR. : Right when you walk in? 23 MR. : That's the only -. That's 24 the only shower that is outside. All the other 25 showers are inside. So, you have to -. So, EFTA00118906 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you can't see it. So, G-tier is the only 2 shower that's, like, you could actually see. 3 Like, if you sit down, you can actually see 4 that G-tier shower. That's the only shower. 5 All the other showers are inside. You have a 6 cage. Shower. So, you have a cage where the 7 inmates inside the shower. This one, you can 8 actually see the shower because it's on the 9 outside. That's the only one because - excuse 10 me - that G-tier is made specifically for the 11 high-profile inmates. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : That's why it's made like 14 that. 15 MR. : Now, based on, when you gave 16 the phone call to him, where was and 17 Noel? Where they at the G -? At the shower 18 area, or where they sitting -- 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : -- at the desk? 21 MR. : They were sitting at the 22 desk. 23 MR. : The desk. And what about 24 25 MR. was with me. And EFTA00118907 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 then, I told , I said, hey, just make 2 sure he gets off. He's internal now - so, he 3 probably went back to doing his internal 4 duties. Internal, any time they need an 5 inmate, that's his job to escort them back and 6 forth. 7 MR. : And you left for the day, 8 after that? 9 MR. : That is correct. At 7:00. 10 MR. : Did you make any phone calls 11 back, to check in on them, and to verify that 12 Epstein was finishing his phone call? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : So, you just So, Noel 15 said that you spoke to her and said, hey, make 16 - hey, get that phone, his phone back after his 17 phone call is done. 18 MR. : I remember speaking to her. 19 And I do. So, I don't know if I was, like, in 20 the car, in -. But I did ask her. I said, 21 hey, did you take the phone from the inmate? 22 And she said, yes. 23 MR. : And that was that night, 24 before you left? 25 MR. : That is correct. EFTA00118908 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : Okay. She said that -- 2 MR. : So, it could have been 3 MR. : -- she said that -. 4 MR. I could have been in the 5 institution, I could been outside of my car. 6 Or I could have been going on the train. But I 7 did contact her and say, yes. Did you make 8 sure you take him off the phone? Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. She said you said, 10 hey, make sure you get that phone back from 11 him, because his time is up, and then, she 12 said, okay. And that's when she went and took 13 it back. Does that sound right? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. You want to ask 16 more about that comment? Why -? Is that why 17 you had contacted her, though, to make sure 18 that she -? 19 MR. : That is correct. Because 20 don't want him going over that 15 minutes. I 21 mean, 16, 17 minutes, but to stay on the phone, 22 no. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, yeah. I would -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00118909 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 MR. : I would definitely want 2 to verify that. 3 MR. : Did you talk -- 4 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:31:45). 5 MR. : -- was there anything, 6 any other conversations you had with her 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : -- with Noel? 9 MR. : Not that I recall. It could 10 have, could have been. But all, the main thing 11 was to take him off the telephone. 12 MR. : Okay. And you did that 13 from your car? 14 MR. : My - yeah - my phone. 15 Either from the car or the train. I don't know 16 what I caught that day. But from my personal 17 phone. 18 MR. : Okay. And do you 19 remember at all, around what time that would 20 have been? 21 MR. : It could have been, if I 22 left at 7:00, it had to be no later than 7:00, 23 7:15. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00118910 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 45 1 MR. : Now, going back, I'm going to 2 read a part here. dialed the number, 3 and a male picked up the phone." Being that, 4 when Epstein asked to make a phone call, he 5 said he was going to - he wanted to call his 6 mother. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Did you verify who the person 9 was? Did you ask about his mother? Did you 10 ask to speak to a specific person? Identify 11 the person before you -- 12 MR. : I did not. 13 MR. how come? 14 MR. : I just didn't. And there 15 was no reason why I didn't. I just didn't. 16 MR. : Because he was just - we have 17 to get clarification - because he asked for his 18 mother, but it was a male that picked up, and 19 it was, you know, contradictory to what he 20 requested, to who the phone was being handed 21 off to. That didn't. How come - I know you 22 didn't ask - but is there a reason? Normally, 23 do you verify if an inmate is talking to the 24 person that they have requested to speak to? 25 MR. : I mean, do I verify? EFTA00118911 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 There's not a lot of inmates that we do give 2 phone calls. So, let's say, if a dude said, 3 hey, I want to call my father, and a woman pick 4 up. Okay. How you doing? Because he's giving 5 me that number, and I'm verifying that that 6 number is on his - but which he don't, you 7 can't verify his numbers, because he don't have 8 an account. So, give him the phone, and that's 9 it. I don't Me verifying it, was it, you 10 know, was it something I should have done? 11 Yes. Was it something I did? No. 12 MR. : Okay. And are inmates 13 allowed to call just anyone, or is there a 14 specific list of people that they are allowed 15 to call? 16 MR. : Originally how it works is, 17 if an inmate is asking for, of course, his 18 mother, father, sister, brother, whoever he 19 wants to speak to, usually, it's not ever a 20 friend. It's usually immediate family members. 21 Mother, father, sister, brother, uncle, aunts, 22 whatever. It has to be in the inmate phone 23 list. But once again, how can an inmate have a 24 phone list when he has no account set up? 25 MR. : So, the pack and pin, if he EFTA00118912 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 set that up, would have had a phone list -- 2 MR. : That is -. 3 MR. : -- and certain people he 4 could have called? 5 6 MR. : That is correct. MR. : Okay. You got anything on 7 that? 8 MR. : I'll circle back, after 9 you finish your -. 10 MR. : That's all on that topic. 11 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. No. 12 So, I mean, I just want to get more 13 clarification. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : When you said that you 16 gave him the phone call, and then, did you 17 inform Noel and , with present, or 18 did you say for one, or the other, or who did 19 you say, make sure this phone call ends in 1x- 20 minutes? 21 MR. : All three of them was there. 22 When I -- 23 MR. : All three. 24 MR. -- when I actually told 25 them, because remember, brought him up EFTA00118913 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 with me. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : And I said, you guys, just 4 make sure it's 15 minutes and that's it. 10-4. 5 And that's the reason why I made that phone 6 call. But I made it to the SHU. So, whoever 7 would have answered it, it either would have 8 been or Noel. It wouldn't have been 9 Masulllo because he's internal. 10 MR. : All right. So, you 11 didn't -. So, I thought the way that you 12 answered it was that you told make sure 13 it ends in 15 minutes. But you would have told 14 Noel or 15 MR. : Pretty much everybody. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Everybody was there when I 18 said -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- make sure he's off in 15 21 minutes. Everybody was there. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Because when you talking to 24 25 MR. : But because -- EFTA00118914 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- as I'm talking - 2 MR. was internal, 3 he wouldn't stay that 15 minutes. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : Right? 6 MR. : So, let's say, right now, 7 and I'm saying, hey, you guys make sure it's 8 all - he's there, and the desk is only over 9 there, so, everybody knows, hey, you guys, make 10 sure he's off. Even if I told 11 specifically, I told - they all knew, because I 12 said, hey, make sure he's off in 15 minutes. 13 And that's the reason why I called SHU back. 14 Because I know I can get into SHU. Like, if I 15 call back, I couldn't get because he's 16 all over the building. 17 MR. : So, that's where I was 18 just wanted to verify. It was more, like, you 19 told Noel and was present and a 20 witness. 21 MR. : That is correct. 22 MR. : Okay. So, it was 23 addressed to Noel and 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : -- who worked in the SHU. EFTA00118915 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That is correct. 2 MR. : Okay. And then, you 3 just, and what caused you - if you told them 4 that there - what caused you to follow up with 5 them in the car? 6 MR. : And that was just me, where 7 let's say you have officers - it was only two. 8 And I don't know how many inmates we had at the 9 time, but we had several. This is not 10 midnight. So, me personally, they should have 11 more officers in there. So, they could have 12 got busy. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : It could have been a use of 15 force. IT could have been anything. So, what 16 if those inmates still got the phone? So, at 17 least they could have went down there, pulled 18 the - all they have to do is pull the jack out. 19 There was nothing else they can do. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, I just wanted to make 22 sure that was done. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Because I didn't want him to 25 stay on that phone. EFTA00118916 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Now, would it -- 2 MR. : Over 15 minutes. 3 MR. would it typically be 4 - and I understand what you're saying, it 5 sounds like MCC kind of wasn't doing things 6 right - but per BOP, should have you, as the 7 unit manager, been the person that, if you 8 provided the telephone call, you should have 9 actually sat there and monitored it? 10 MR. : Yes. And that's what I went 11 over with you guys, the proper way to make a 12 phone call -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- if he wanted that phone 15 call, is the inmate come out. He wouldn't be 16 in the shower. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : The inmate come out. The 19 inmate go to, let's say, an area, and you put 20 it on speaker. 21 MR. : So, that's the proper 22 way. So, why -- 23 MR. : That is the proper way. 24 MR. : -- wasn't it -. And 25 just, we have to cover this. EFTA00118917 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Why wasn't it that proper 3 way done? 4 MR. : Shortness of staff. Due to 5 the shortness of staff. And why didn't he - 6 and I always ask the question - why didn't he 7 what was so special? - why didn't he have a 8 pack and pin set up? Every inmate in the BOP 9 has always had a pen and a pack set up. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : So, my question, my question 12 to myself is, why is he the only one? 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : And he's not endogen. 15 MR. : Now, going back to 16 According to you said he spoke 17 with you in the elevator, and that you said, 18 yeah, go ahead, give him his phone call. But 19 make sure it's monitored and logged. Do you 20 remember that -? 21 MR. : In the book. Yes. 22 MR. : So, when he said, make 23 sure it's monitored and logged, wouldn't that 24 have been, like, make sure you stay with him 25 while it's going on? EFTA00118918 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : No. Monitor and log is just 2 make sure we had a logbook that it was actually 3 logged in a phone logbook. And at the time, 4 they didn't have a phone logbook. That I was 5 aware of. A lot of stuff, when I got there, 6 they didn't have. We made, like, I recently 7 made a phone logbook, a legal line. I did that 8 myself because I know what was - what we was 9 doing in other prisons. They didn't have one 10 here. I made that up and put it in SHU. And 11 it wasn't after Epstein. 12 I just said, if we're giving inmates legal 13 calls, we need to have that documented, and so 14 an inmate - let's say he bought 1,000 BP-8 and 15 BP-9 (Phonetic Sp. *00:38:33), and said, I 16 never got this call. Same thing with social 17 calls. Social calls have to be logged in the 18 book. How would you -? Yeah, you can print 19 the data off and say, okay, you made a 15 20 minute phone, but we should be logging it in 21 because it should be also the person who's 22 giving that inmate that phone call. 23 MR. : So, was that phone call 24 logged, then? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00118919 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. So, it wasn't 2 logged, and it wasn't monitored. Okay. As far 3 as who he spoke with, do you know who he spoke 4 with? 5 MR. : I do not. 6 MR. : No. Okay. All right. 7 Do you want to talk about the memo? 8 MR. : Yeah. Going back, you said 9 that he requested multiple times -- 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. -- for his pack and pen to be 12 set up. Not to you, but to other people. Do 13 you know who he requested that to? 14 MR. : He requested it to me, but 15 he told me numerous times that he actually was 16 unit team. The only unit team he had at the 17 time was Unit Manager was the 18 counselor. That was . And who 19 else was it? I don't think had -. 20 think she had . There was one more 21 person. I'm trying to think who else she had 22 under her. Oh. And I'm want -. I 23 want to say (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:46). 24 don't know if he was under her. I know she had 25 two people under her. EFTA00118920 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : But that was their 3 responsibility to set that up. And let's say - 4 I'll give you a good example - let's use R. 5 Kelly. All right? He's in my unit now. Okay? 6 So, regardless of whoever is who, I get new 7 guys that come in. Every day, an inmate going 8 to come to you and say, hey, I need my pack and 9 pin. That's something they're going to do. 10 Well, R. Kelly is always in court. Right? It 11 doesn't mean he can't set up his legal line. 12 He had to -. How did he set up his stuff? He 13 set it up the same way. 14 So, saying that is how long do we have 15 Epstein, and it wasn't set up? So, it should 16 have been set up from the beginning. So, we 17 wouldn't have this problem where, okay, an 18 inmate is entitled to call his family member or 19 whoever. And yes, it should be monitored. So, 20 that's besides the point. Whatever I did, I'm 21 not going to sit there and sugar coat it and 22 say, hey, I should have sat right there, but 23 even sitting right there, what can I heard him 24 say? Oh, this, and this, whatever. Whatever. 25 And maybe I should have. Maybe I should have EFTA00118921 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 pulled him out and put him in this area, and 2 put it on speaker. 3 But once again, we're talking about 80 4 some inmates, and two officers, that is, you 5 know, it should be four officers, instead of 6 that. But it's two officers. So, there was a 7 lot of shortness going around. Shortcuts going 8 around. I'm not putting that on nobody. This 9 is me. I'm speaking about me. I'm not 10 speaking about anybody else. So, once I 11 realized a lot of stuff was going on, and 12 that's not just because of his death, it's 13 things that I know that should be happening. 14 put those things in place at MCC because it 15 wasn't happening. 16 I did those. I'm the one who put a green 17 book in SHU, make sure that legal calls, and I 18 did that. Specifically. And nobody made me do 19 it. I just knew it was the right thing to do. 20 I'm the one who actually went to the AW, in the 21 com shop, and told him, take the legal line 22 out. And it wasn't just because of Epstein. 23 It was because a lot of inmates were 24 manipulating staff to give them the legal line, 25 to make phone calls. Who is to say an inmate EFTA00118922 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 is not putting a hit on a staff member? Or 2 another inmate? And it wasn't monitored. So, 3 I saw that, and I'm the one who did that. 4 MR. : Well, I'm glad you said 5 that, because that's - from my understanding 6 the reason why it's supposed to be monitored 7 and verified who they're talking about, is 8 because hits on other inmates -- 9 MR. : That is correct. 10 MR. : -- or being able to run 11 an organization from within the institution. 12 MR. : That is correct. 13 MR. : So, and that's why, 14 unfortunately, this becomes a little bit more 15 of a serious matter. 16 MR. : And I get it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I have - once again - I have 19 no excuse. I get it. And maybe I was one of 20 those who fell into the thing, what MCC was 21 doing, but I still know better. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Because I have 27 years in. 24 MR. : And when you corrected 25 the problem, that was - it sounds like - after EFTA00118923 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein. 2 MR. : Of course. 3 MR. : Okay. Do you know how 4 long after? 5 MR. : What's that? What he, in 6 October, or 7 MR. : August. 8 MR. : -- August? 9 MR. : Yeah. August. Augu.-- 10 10t is when. 11 MR. : I'm going to say the 12 beginning - me - the beginning of 2020. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Because at MCC, it takes, 15 it's not something you, like, you go to people, 16 and you say - and you know right from wrong - 17 and you go, hey, you know, I know everything is 18 a little salty now. People running around. I 19 know it's crazy. But you go to these people. 20 Hey, communication. Because that's who has a 21 door. Hey, we need to take these legal lines 22 out. Okay. I'm good with that. Let's get 23 with -. So, get with the associate warden, 24 hey, associate warden. And I'm putting this in 25 emails. I'm not just, you know, hey, we need EFTA00118924 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to get rid of this stuff. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : Because it's bad for staff 4 down there. Okay. Get with this person. Get 5 with that person. Vice versa. It's just a lot 6 of back and forth. So, it took, you know, 7 you're trying to get this stuff done, and 8 they're acting like it's the hardest thing to 9 do. Communication staff is telling me, it 10 could happen like that. I could just snap a 11 wire, that legal line is gone. Come to find 12 out, when it was finally approved, that's all 13 it took. Just like that. 14 MR. : And then, as far as, you 15 said, that it seems like it was kind of common 16 practice at the time, that, like, people were 17 just putting inmates on legal lines. Was that 18 happening a lot, then, around that time? 19 MR. : All the time. 20 MR. : All the time. 21 MR. : All the time. 22 MR. : So, was that -. Now, who 23 was -. Were you also one of the ones that was 24 constantly providing -? 25 MR. : No. The only call I gave an EFTA00118925 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmate was Epstein, during that time. If I 2 ever gave an inmate - once again - a call, 3 let's say to his mother, I would have to go 4 through the warden. Like, if you on phone 5 restriction, I would not. I would just be, 6 like, hey, warden. You know, they asking the 7 warden. She's the warden. They would sign a 8 cop out. She would say, Mr. , make sure 9 this inmate gets his phone call. She would 10 follow up, and say the next day, hey, Mr. 11 , did you give this inmate the phone 12 call? Yes, ma'am, I did. 13 MR. : And when you're talking 14 about a female. Who is it that you are 15 speaking of? 16 MR. : Warden 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : The warden. 19 MR. : Like, but at that time, 20 was it , right? 21 MR. -: was, at the time, 22 well, this is -. never told me to give 23 an inmate -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- a phone. EFTA00118926 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 MR. : So, you're talking after 2 3 MR. : That is correct. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Because inmates would ask 6 her. Inmate. But the thing is, once again, 7 inmates can ask for anything you want. If 8 that's just, like, if your visit has been taken 9 for a year. They have the right to ask for a 10 special visit. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : The special visit is 13 approved by who? The warden. Typically, the 14 warden just usually don't. They have to be 15 really an emergency, somebody is dying, or 16 something. But if you've been sanctioned, and 17 if you read the policy, the only person who 18 really can do that is the regional DHO, but 19 under, of course, the warden, because that's 20 her jail, or that's his jail, or whoever the 21 warden is. They can do it. But they would 22 have to - you would have to put it in the memo 23 form, I'm asking for a special visit, this day. 24 So, special visits never happen, but 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00118927 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- the phone calls did. 2 MR. : So, in the phone calls, 3 though, it sounds like they were happening, not 4 only prior to Epstein, but also following 5 Epstein's discovery on August 9th. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : So, staff members were -. 8 And that's in the SHU, as well? 9 MR. : That's the only way On 10 the outside, we never did it on that. We don't 11 have to do it on the outside. This was mainly 12 inmates in SHU. These are all inmates in SHU. 13 MR. : Oh, so, you're speaking 14 specifically to the SHU, and the G-tier shower? 15 MR. : No. Remember. They had the 16 legal line. I put him in the G-tier because 17 the whole phone couldn't reach. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So, I did that as a security 20 breach of this inmate can't do nothing to 21 himself, or whoever. I knew who he was. But 22 as far as on the tiers, they had legal lines on 23 every tier. Between every cell. So, if I had 24 went to -. I can go downstairs, plug this 25 phone in, and give it to an inmate. EFTA00118928 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. : And that's what they were 2 doing? 3 MR. : Yup. 4 MR. : So, they were just 5 plugging it in 6 MR. : Everybody was doing it. 7 MR. : -- okay. So, you chose 8 to put him in the G-tier shower. Other staff 9 members are just giving it to him on any legal 10 line? And that's for other inmates. 11 MR. : It was constant. And it was 12 nothing I mean, so, I requested that 13 because it was putting staff in a bind. My 14 thing. It was a lot of -. And I'm not saying, 15 like, these are young staff. You know, some 16 staff got, you know, once you get your year, 17 you can go to SHU. They don't know no better. 18 Hey, let me have a phone call. So, you put it 19 in the social line. Right? And let's say you 20 got a staff that's down there, and the inmate 21 go, hold that, my phone's not working. It says 22 social and legal. 23 So, you know the difference. And then, he 24 takes it out of social and plug it. So, it 25 might not be typically that staff member. It EFTA00118929 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 could be another staff member taking it out and 2 putting it there. So, that's why I said, okay, 3 let's get rid of it. What they did was, they 4 did a quick fix. They put tape around it. 5 Okay. Nobody is using the legal line. What's 6 putting tape around it? Anybody could take off 7 the tape. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : And it was happening. So, 10 tape is coming off. Then they tried to put 11 puddy in it. That didn't work. So, 12 eventually, they did exactly what I asked them 13 to do. There was only one line you could plug 14 in. And that was your phone call. That's it. 15 All legal lines was put in the back of the 16 visit room, where you have to have a staff 17 member present at that time. 18 MR. : In the SHU visiting room? 19 MR. : Yes. And that -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- the only person that will 22 be is that will be unit team. 23 MR. : Okay. And how did you 24 know that the staff members were providing 25 inmates with these calls? EFTA00118930 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 MR. : Let's say I'm doing my 2 rounds. I'm doing my unit manager rounds. All 3 right? I'm doing my unit manager rounds. I'm 4 doing rounds. And I'm, like, you know the 5 difference between the cord, and you go, what's 6 this guy on right here? Oh, he's on a social 7 call. No, he's not on a social call. He's on 8 the legal line. Like, each, you know -? So, _ 9 would go over there, and of course, I catch 10 problems. Take it and just switch it. Oh, I 11 don't have no minutes. You don't have no 12 minutes. You shouldn't -. You're on phone 13 restriction. It's a lot. Now, it becomes a 14 problem where, guess what? The inmate acts 15 out, he breaks the phone. Do you know how many 16 phones we've replaced in there? Listen. It 17 was a lot. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Like I said, me personally, 20 I would never make an excuse for myself. You 21 know? Regardless of the fact, the years that 22 have in, I should have did it the right way. 23 There is no way for me, myself, to fall into 24 MCC's trap, which I did. And it caused me to 25 be right here today. So, I would never make an EFTA00118931 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 excuse for that. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : I just want to clarify. 4 Based on the question I asked, based on your 5 conversation with Epstein, he said that he 6 requested pack and pin from and 7 multiple times, but it was just never set up. 8 MR. : That is correct. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. And on that note, 11 you had mentioned I don't think 12 was a counselor at that time. 13 MR. : And that's what I'm saying. 14 He probably was a lieutenant. 15 MR. : Oh, yeah. 16 MR. : And then, went to A i - 17 that's what I said. It's been so long. 18 don't know who. But I know she had other 19 people under her. I know it was -. She did 20 have a case manager, , but she left. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : At that time. So, she's no 23 longer there. 24 MR. : Okay. And just to touch 25 on, this is kind of off the topic, but you EFTA00118932 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 mentioned unit manager rounds. What is that? 2 Is that like a lieutenant round? 3 MR. : No. So, what we do is, unit 4 team has to do rounds on an everyday basis. We 5 go in. I know you guys saw that book. I don't 6 know if you saw it. So, the sign-in book that 7 we sign in. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : You go in. You sign in. 10 Put the time you in. And then, whenever you 11 come out. So, we would go there, and we would 12 run a roster with all of our inmates. 11 13 North, 11 South. And 9 North. Run. Boom. 14 Zoom. When I go down, hey, how you doing, your 15 unit manager, boom, boom, boom. What you need? 16 They might want a BP-8. They may say, hey, I 17 want a phone call. Okay. You on phone 18 restriction? No. Okay. So, when is your next 19 validation date? And a lot of those guys were 20 legit. Oh, by validation. 21 So, they can really make a phone call. 22 So, I don't know why they wasn't getting phone 23 calls. But then, I found out a lot, they 24 didn't have a SHU schedule. So, everywhere 25 I've been, it's a SHU schedule. Monday, this EFTA00118933 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 range. Tuesday, that range. So, no one can 2 get scared. And all inmates knew. Okay, 3 Mondays, we don't use the phone. It's just us 4 going to use the phone. And that should have 5 been set up that way. 6 Once again, I set that up. I did. I 7 didn't have to. But I did it because I thought 8 it was just right for the inmates, and for the 9 staff. This way, they're not, okay, they're 10 giving this inmate a phone call today. 11 Tomorrow, this inmate want the phone. Next 12 day. And this becomes where the inmates are 13 actually running the phones the way they want 14 to. And it shouldn't be that way. You should 15 be giving this range on Monday, and that should 16 be every Monday. 17 If this dude is validated, and he can get 18 a phone call, he should get a phone call. 19 Leave it on that range, put it in the social 20 line, he can only make - at that time - you can 21 only make two 15-minute phone calls. It would 22 cut off no matter what. So, you can go down 23 there and make your 30-minute rounds, and you 24 knew that the phone call was over. You knew it 25 was over. It was done. Take it, give it to EFTA00118934 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the next person. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : So, it was a lot that MCC 4 had backwards. They just came up with the 5 phones where you wheel the real phones, the way 6 it's supposed to be. The actual phone that 7 they have on the phone, but they have it on a 8 stand. You wheel it over there. You open the 9 slot. You leave the slot open. The inmate 10 down, and the only thing he can have is that. 11 We had the old phones where you're giving an 12 inmate the whole phone, put the wire in the 13 thing, and locks the slot. Now, the inmate has 14 a phone. 15 MR. : So, with the unit team 16 round, do you go around to each one of the 17 inmates -- 18 MR. : Each cell. And I look for 19 my inmates. And let's say -- 20 MR. : -- oh, so, you only have 21 certain inmates that you're going to? 22 MR. right. Let's say I had 23 12 - no, but I'm doing rounds in an entire 24 tier, because what if another inmate from 25 says, hey, I need a BP-8. I'm still writing EFTA00118935 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 that down. And I will email later and 2 say - because we do the same thing here - we 3 email every unit team, hey, this inmate had an 4 issue, boom, boom, boom, boom. They would 5 address it whenever they do their SHU rounds. 6 So, our job is to go to every cell. Not just 7 our inmates. But I ran a roster so I can know 8 who my inmates is, but our job as a unit team 9 go to every cell. 10 MR. : So -- 11 MR. : Not just our inmates. 12 MR. : -- two questions on that. 13 Is a lieutenant round supposed to be done the 14 same way, where they're going to every cell? 15 MR. : A lieutenant round on each 16 shift is the same way, where they're supposed 17 to go to every cell. Look in the window. And 18 we And now, this, when we was doing, take 19 your streams now, do this, if an inmate is not 20 moving -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- hit the light. Make sure 23 inmates living and breathing. Yes. That's a 24 lieutenants' round. 25 MR. : So, a lieutenant round EFTA00118936 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 does actually consist of going to every cell MR. : Every cell. MR. : -- not just checking in with the -- MR. : No. MR. : -- staff members to see if they're doing it. MR. : That's the last thing. That's the last thing they do. Our job, even when we make lieutenant rounds in the housing unit. In the housing unit, you don't have to go every cell in the housing unit because it's not the SHU. They're out. But you should go to at least one or two ranges. Go around, and you check, and you're making sure. How you know an inmate not on a cell phone? You check and you looking at, you looking into the cell. How you know an inmate don't have his window covered (Indiscernible *00:53:49)? Why you got your window covered? Open the door. So, yes. But in SHU, it's every cell. MR. : Okay. So, the lieutenant does a round. Has to check every cell. MR. : The same thing as unit team. MR. : All right. And then EFTA00118937 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 thcn, that's every shift needed to do that, 2 too. Correct? 3 MR. : Day watch, evening watch, 4 and morning watch. 5 MR. : Is that unit team, as 6 well? 7 MR. : Unit team has to do it -. A 8 unit team has to do rounds once a day. 9 MR. : Once every 24 hours. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : But remember, that's the 13 unit team. So, that means it wasn't just me. 14 It was me. . And (Phonetic Sp. 15 *00:54:21). 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And then -. 18 MR. : So, each one of them has 19 to do it? 20 MR. : That is correct. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Until they changed our 23 They just changed our unit manager's manual 24 that says a unit team. Which means, now, I 25 could do rounds for everybody. I can do rounds EFTA00118938 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 for . I could do rounds for . And I 2 just have to send them the information here. 3 So, I can do rounds for them. That's in the 4 new unit manager's manual. 5 MR. : Now, aside from phone 6 calls, what is a unit team member, or manager, 7 checking in with the inmates on? What is the, 8 like, what is the goal of checking in with the 9 inmates? 10 MR. : We're doing is reports. So, 11 disciplinary action. So, we go there. An 12 inmate has -. That's why he's in SHU. 13 Disciplinary action. So, we do incident 14 reports. Excuse me. We set up inmates - a lot 15 of inmates from visiting can't set up their 16 visits in SHU. That, they can't set up. So, 17 they would have to fill out a form, who they 18 want. And then, we take that form and send it 19 to trust fund, who they would then add those 20 names to the visiting list. But they would 21 have to already be in the inmates' central 22 file, if it's on those. So, we do visiting, 23 incident reports, BP-8s, BP-9s, inmate 24 remedies, if they want a BP-8, BP-9. And 25 listen to their problems. So, that's why we EFTA00118939 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had to go to SHU every day. MR. : Now, did you have anything to do with, like, cellmates? MR. : No. The only time we would get involved with cellmate is when it was just, like, psychologist, and that was Epstein. So, if the psychologist says, this person needs a cellmate, the only time unit team, if I knew an inmate, like now, we do it now. So, we got an inmate up here that needed a cellmate. I know four or five inmates. So, in SHU, and I would aril be, like, this is a good fit for him. If this guy is a sex offender, and he's not a sex offender predator, he's just a sex offender. And he shouldn't be with nobody who is a predator. He can be with another sex offender, but not a predator. Not somebody who is going to prey on him. So, I would be, like, you know what? I know him. He used to be in my unit. So, I would give them, like, the psychologist, I would say, hey, he can cell with this inmate. So, yes, we would have input, as far as that, because we know the inmates. The unit team knows the inmate more than anybody. Like, EFTA00118940 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 the captain, for him to know an inmate, even 2 though he's doing his rounds, he don't know the 3 inmate more than unit team. So, yes, we would 4 have input to psychology, and we did have input 5 of who could go in with Epstein. We did have 6 input. 7 MR. : Oh, you did? Did you, 8 yourself, have input? 9 MR. : No. That was then. 10 MR. -: . Okay. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : But you're the one who 13 brought him back that day. So, at that time, 14 around 7:00 p.m., did you notice that his 15 cellmate was not there? 16 MR. : I knew his cellmate was in 17 court first thing in the morning. And 18 everybody did. 19 MR. : Well, that's the 20 interesting thing, because he wasn't in court. 21 He was transferred. 22 MR. : Right. But originally, his 23 cellmate would do the same thing, go to court, 24 whatever. But remember, I don't do the SENTRY 25 transactions. EFTA00118941 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, we was told he went to 3 court. Right? So -- 4 MR. : Who told everybody that? 5 Because in the court list, it said WAB, and it 6 was transferred to GO. 7 MR. : WAB is court. 8 MR. : WAB is With All 9 Belongings. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Court is court. 12 MR. : Right. But they Here, 13 they call - and once again, this is my first 14 high rise, first pre-trial -- 15 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 16 MR. : -- when they say an inmate 17 is WAB, this is me. I've never been to a high- 18 rise. So, I'm thinking, okay, he goes to 19 court, and then he gets transferred. That's 20 me. And that's my honest truth. Like, I don't 21 know what WA -. I don't know what that means. 22 So, people would say, oh, his cellee is out in 23 court. I mean, his cellee is out in court. 24 Okay. That doesn't mean, because his cellee is 25 out in court, he still needs a cellmate. EFTA00118942 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Wow. 2 MR. : And the thing -- 3 MR. : That's - it could be 4 still out at court, though, at 7:00. 5 MR. : Okay. Then here's the 6 thing. Okay. Let's say your inmate is out in 7 court. Okay? And typically, the right way. 8 And I will say this about MCC. How they was 9 doing this. Now, we didn't have that -. We 10 have the holding cells now. We didn't have 11 them before. They just put them there. I 12 guess after this incident. But you would then 13 - me personally - I would then put that inmate, 14 and that inmate was in a good area, with 15 officer (Indiscernible *00:58:35). I will put 16 that inmate in that cell. So, he was in that 17 cell. But I would - me personally - I would 18 probably do, not a 30-minute round, a 15-minute 19 round, and that's just me, until his cellmate 20 get there. 21 MR. : So, who was it that 22 actually put Epstein in his cell? 23 MR. : I wasn't there. 24 MR. : Oh, so, when you came 25 back from 7:00, at 7:00 p.m. with him -- EFTA00118943 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 MR. : Hmm. 2 MR. : -- you weren't there when 3 he was actually placed in the cell? 4 MR. : No. I wasn't there. 5 MR. : All right. So, did you 6 even know that the cellmate wasn't in there, 7 then? You knew - you said - you knew he was at 8 court. But, like, you said everybody knew. 9 MR. : At 7:00, he didn't have a 10 cellmate. I knew his cellmate was not there. 11 I knew that. 12 MR. : So, and you knew he 13 wasn't coming back at that point? 14 MR. : I didn't know. 15 MR. : Oh. 16 MR. : I didn't know. I honestly 17 didn't know. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : I just know that he wasn't 20 there. And my thing is, I thought he was in 21 court. And I know dudes can come back 8:00, 22 9:00 at night. So, that was my thing. But at 23 the same time, I knew he still should have had 24 a cellmate. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00118944 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 MR. : It don't matter. Let's say 2 you don't have a cellmate. Once again, if your 3 cellmate is in court, it's just up here, just 4 like I'm not taking excuses for what I did. 5 You know he's suspect. Everybody knows that. 6 Okay. So, if you're going to put him there, 7 there's a couple of ways you can do it. I will 8 put him there and say, okay, guess what? We're 9 doing rounds. Or if his cellee is not back 10 from court, take him down to R&D. R&D got the 11 best thing going, going right now. That I've 12 seen. They got a cell with a camera. Put him 13 in there. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Leave him in R&D. 16 MR. : So, was it a conversation 17 at all when you came back with, okay, where is 18 his cellmate? 19 MR. : I didn't. I don't typically 20 ask for a cellmate. I basically -. The only 21 thing I always say, if an inmate is supposed to 22 have a cellmate, just make sure he goes in with 23 a cellmate. 24 MR. : No, no, no. I mean, on 25 that 7:00 p.m., on August 9th, 2019 -- EFTA00118945 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- when you came back. 3 Was that a conversation within the SHU, with 4 , Noel. Was it 5 MR. -• 6 MR. . No. 7 MR. : Oh, was the -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. 10 MR. : -- yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. Was that a 12 conversation that was had at all? 13 MR. : I don't - me. It's been too 14 long - I don't recall. But I know for a fact 15 that an inmate should have a cellmate, but like 16 I said, if he's to in court -. 17 MR. : But that wasn't your 18 purview, though? Or was that? 19 MR. : I'm not sure. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : I can't recall. 22 MR. : So, as far as going back, 23 I thought you said everybody knew he was at 24 court. So, our understanding, through talking 25 with R&D, and other lieutenants and officers, EFTA00118946 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was you get the court list, the court 2 production list, it will say, like, you know, 3 , court -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- that means he went to 6 court, and he's coming back. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : If it says WAB, 9 that means you know he's leaving the 10 institution. He's not coming back. 11 MR. : Well, who gets that court 12 list? 13 MR. : The SHU staff members. 14 The lieutenants. Sorry. I'm just -- 15 MR. : The SHU don't get it. 16 MR. : -- well, SHU gets it 17 because they have to produce those individuals. 18 So, they get it so that they know who to 19 produce. 20 MR. : So, which court list are you 21 talking about? The one that's created by R&D, 22 or the list that R&D receives? 23 MR. : So, R&D creates one, and 24 provides it to the housing units so that they 25 can produce their inmates. EFTA00118947 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 MR. : Okay. But they put it on 2 the computer. It's not -. It's something. 3 It's something that they would not print. 4 MR. : Now, internal has a 5 printed copy, and they go -- 6 MR. : That is correct. 7 MR. : -- right, and they 8 provide it to the housing units. 9 MR. : For court. Yes. That is 10 correct. 11 MR. : Well, for WAB and court. 12 MR. : That is correct. 13 MR. : All right. 14 MR. : Yes. They have that in the 15 morning. Yes. 16 MR. : So, if in this instance, 17 was on there, but it was listed as WAB -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- not court, there are - 20 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. -: -- individuals that are 23 listed as court, but he was listed as WAB. 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : So, what you're saying is EFTA00118948 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 that, what was your understanding of the WAS? 2 MR. : Court. Because - and the 3 reason why - is because I didn't see the list. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Right? So, we're hearing, 6 you just mentioned just now, that he was WAB. 7 We're hearing, oh, his cellee is in court. So, 8 that's all I remember, all day, because the 9 main thing was him coming back, his cellmate 10 coming back. 11 MR. : And that was spoken 12 about? 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : That he was in court? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : And coming back? 17 MR. : Because had not -. Let's 18 say I come in at 11:00 to 7:00, right, I'm the 19 duty officer. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : And let's say I know he's 22 down there talking to his attorney, and I knew 23 I had actual - and regardless of the fact, now, 24 this, I won't do - if I know an inmate needs a 25 cellmate, and his cellmate didn't go to court, EFTA00118949 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 I, as the duty officer, would ensure that he 2 move with somebody. I promise you that. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 That's just -. I do it right now. I do it now. When I have an inmate right now, in our suicide watch (Indiscernible *01:03:01). (Phonetic Sp. *01:03:02). When he comes off, I will actually go in the unit. I would be, like, hey, you need to find a cellee. If he don't find a cellee, and then I'm interviewing that cellee, I need to find out what kind of cellmate he's putting in there with him. He might have a guy, okay, this guy -. But I've done it. And that's something I will never go against, where if I know an inmate has to have a cellmate, I'm going to make sure he has a cellmate. MR. : So, on this note, whereas Epstein was required to have a cellmate, his cellmate, at 8:00 a.m. or whatever time it was, early in the morning, you know, leaves the institution, listed on the court production list as WAB. In your unit manager experience, who was responsible for saying, he's WAB, he's not going to court, he's WAB, he's transferring from here, and there is emails from the U.S. EFTA00118950 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 Marshal Service that clearly show, the day 2 before, that he is transferring to GO. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Whose ultimately 5 responsibility was that, at that point? 6 MR. : R&D, and this is, R&D is 7 responsible repoonaibc1 for saying, okay, he's 8 WAB, he's transferring. Once again, I never 9 knew what WAB is. I don't. This is my - like 10 I said - this is my first high rise. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : So, he goes out or whatever. 13 It's R&D's responsibility to say, hey, this guy 14 is WAB. He's not coming back. He getting 15 transferred or whatever. Also, too, if that 16 was my inmate. So, I'm not sure even 17 received something saying that he don't have a 18 cellmate. So, at that time, if did 19 receive something, because they would have sent 20 it to me if he was my inmate. been there 21 forever. She knows. She knows. She's been 22 the unit manager. She's been the case manager 23 there. So, she would know, okay, you don't got 24 no cellmate. She could have got with a 25 psychologist and said, hey, you know, Epstein's EFTA00118951 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 celimate left at 9:00 in the morning, or 8:00 2 in the morning. 3 MR. : So, would it be -- 4 MR. : He needs a celimate. 5 MR. so, would it have been 6 actual responsibility, it seems like? 7 MR. : It would have been two 8 responsibilities. R&D first, and then, if they 9 sent it to , yes, to say to 10 psychologist, hey, his cellmate left. He needs 11 a cellee. Then once we tell psychology, it is 12 then psychology's responsibility to go to the 13 captain and say, hey, this guy needs a 14 cellmate. 15 MR. : Okay. So, it wasn't, 16 like, the SHU staff members, or the operations 17 lieutenant, it was actually the unit manager 18 who was responsible for that individual? 19 MR. : It goes from R&D, who they - 20 Let's say they send the list, and the 21 lieutenant gets it, too. 22 MR. : Do you know who -. 23 Sorry. is Epstein's guy. Who was 24 guy? 25 MR. : He had to be because EFTA00118952 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 he wasn't mine. I know who is, but he 2 wasn't mine. 3 MR. : And where is now, 4 do you know? 5 MR. : She is - she's working from 6 the house - but she does here, right here. 7 What's this -? MCC. The CCM office. 8 MR. : What is that? 9 MR. : It's this office. That' r,. 10 Okay, you know 11 MR. : Yeah, right here -- 12 MR. : where this building 13 MR. -: . -- at the MDC? 14 MR. : yeah. The CCM office is 15 on the east building. 16 MR. : Oh, the one next to the Third 17 Avenue? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : So -- 21 MR. : Well, what's her -? 22 MR. : but she works from home. 23 MR. : What is her position now? 24 MR. : CCM. I think she's -. I 25 think she's I want to -. She's an 11. So, EFTA00118953 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 she took a bus down from -- 2 MR. : And what are you, a 12? 3 MR. : -- yeah. We were both 12s. 4 and she saw an opportunity had opened because 5 she just lost her father. Her mother is sick. 6 So, she basically -. So, she works -. She 7 works out of home. I think she has to report 8 there once a week, or once a month. But yeah, 9 she works out of home. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : But she still works for the 12 BOP. 13 MR. : So, your unit team 14 experience tells you that the actual way it 15 should have worked, and the ideal circumstance, 16 was R&D should have told her, she should have 17 told the captain. 18 MR. : That is correct. Or, and it 19 could have been, let's say, everybody gets this 20 list. I know I will get it. So, 21 captain. So, let's say the captain, or the 22 lieutenant's office get it. The lieutenant's 23 office, they get it because they know all the 24 transfers. They know who is leaving. They 25 could have known, hey, this guy is leaving. EFTA00118954 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 They could have notified psychology. Anyone of 2 us has supervisors, who had that list, should 3 have notified psychology in the morning. It 4 could have been -. 5 MR. : Is there one group that 6 should have, though, versus could have? 7 Because if R&D is giving that list to 8 everybody, is there one, is there one group, 9 either unit team, or ops lieutenant -- 10 MR. : The person I'm going to put, 11 that if they had a SHU lieutenant, it's going 12 to be the SHU lieutenant. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : Because the SHU lieutenant, 15 like, if I'm the SHU lieutenant, I used to be a 16 lieutenant for 13 years. So, I'm the SHU 17 lieutenant. So, you give me a copy of this 18 list, you know, this guy leaving. He don't got 19 no cellmate. Oh, he getting a cellmate. And I 20 already know, Epstein is in court, while he's 21 downstairs, right? He probably be down there 22 until about, let's say 7:00, 8:00. Before he 23 come up here, he have a cellmate. That's 24 automatic. So, it would fall on under SHU 25 lieutenant. If the SHU lieutenant wasn't EFTA00118955 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 there, it's the operations lieutenant. Who 2 would then notify the captain and psychology, 3 hey, we need to give this guy a cellee. Which 4 then, if they would have did it early enough, 5 when the inmate went up at 6:45, he would have 6 went back in that cell, and he would have had a 7 cellmate. 8 MR. : Absolutely. So, the 9 actual way it should have worked is, the SHU 10 lieutenant to the ops lieutenants to the 11 captain, or the SHU lieutenant straight to the 12 captain. 13 MR. : That is correct. It's never 14 our responsibility. Because that inmate, he 15 belong to SHU. The SHU belongs to the captain. 16 SHU is the captain. That's the captain's baby. 17 If you got a SHU lieutenant, it's the SHU 18 lieutenants. That's mines. So, I know all my 19 inmates. I know who needs a cellmate. Oh, the 20 cellmate left. Okay. Let's get the cellmate 21 for this inmate. Call psychology. Hey, 22 left. We need a cellmate for Epstein. Okay. 23 Let's make sure we don't pick somebody like 24 Tartaglione, or somebody else who's going to, 25 you know what I mean? Get accused of doing EFTA00118956 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 something. Okay. We'll pick a cellmate. 2 MR. : So, two things off that. 3 One, so, when you previously said that it 4 should have been R&D to to the 5 captain, are you kind of re-thinking that? 6 MR. : R&D, at least to the SHU 7 lieutenant. Everything going to be SHU 8 lieutenant or captain. 9 MR. : And in this case, the SHU 10 lieutenant is not there. 11 MR. : Operations. 12 MR. : So, you're saying R&D 13 should have told operations? 14 MR. : I'm quite sure they did. 15 Remember, everything goes to operations because 16 17 MR. : Well, yeah, yeah, the: 18 got the list. So, all -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- these people get 21 lists. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : So, where does the unit - 24 ? So, are you thinking the unit team actually 25 doesn't fall into that notification -- EFTA00118957 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : We don't. 2 MR. : -- versus not? 3 MR. : We don't. But let's say, if 4 - and the reason why I say we don't, but we 5 still do - let's say, if I knew it was my 6 inmate, right? So, I get a list. Like, and 7 then, I'm going to give you an example. All 8 these guys that's come in over here, right? I 9 get the list in the morning. They come here 10 every Thursday. These MCC guys. And they're 11 going into just quarantine unityeia. So, the 12 process here, I had to find out the process 13 when I got here. I get the list. 14 (Phonetic Sp. *01:09:49), who is 15 over there, she does all the bed assignments. 16 So, I thought, originally, I'm doing the bed 17 assignments, because technically, they are my 18 inmates, I do their assignments. So, long 19 story short, she says to us, she does it 20 because she only have 20 inmates. She's been 21 doing since she's been here. Okay. So, that's 22 something less I have to do. But I still have 23 to make sure those inmates, because they come 24 into my unit, all the cells are working. All 25 the lights are working in the cell. EFTA00118958 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 Everything. 2 So, that's my responsibility. That is my 3 responsibility. That is my unit. It's still 4 can fall on the unit team, but is it our 5 responsibility? I would say no, because SHU 6 belongs to the SHU lieutenant. Really, the 7 captain, who belongs to the SHU lieutenant, 8 then operations. 9 MR. : SO -- 10 MR. : That's how it really goes. 11 MR. : -- do you think, though, 12 that has any responsibility for notifying 13 that left, and knowing that was 14 Epstein's -? 15 MR. : I wouldn't put it on - and 16 I'm not just saying this because even if it was 17 me - that's not my responsibility. Like, it's 18 not onto me, because that inmate is in SHU. If 19 he's in my unit, yes. Like, we do have inmates 20 in their units who can't be by themselves, too. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : That's my responsibility. 23 He's in SHU. That's the captain's 24 responsibility. 25 MR. : Okay. And then, the EFTA00118959 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 second follow up to that, was you mentioned 2 Tartaglione, and the things that, you know, 3 were being talked about. What is your 4 understanding of what happened with Epstein and 5 Tartaglione? 6 MR. : The only thing I remember is 7 - and this is when I first met Tartaglione. I 8 didn't know anything about him. I didn't know 9 his background. Anything. It was just 10 alleged, and this is something that I heard, 11 that he choked Epstein out. That's the only 12 thing I heard. So, of course, they had an SIS 13 investigation, and they moved Tartaglione, and 14 that was it. And Tartaglione came to my unit, 15 like later on, he was in 11 North or whatever. 16 He, like, you know, oh my God, this guy was 17 trying to get to me, caught up, I don't get 18 into that. I was, like, whatever. He was 19 just, like, no, I never did that. And you 20 think I would do something like that? And I'm 21 working on my case? All right. No problem. 22 Never, ever talked about them again. 23 MR. : So 24 MR. : That was it. 25 MR. : -- did you ever kind of EFTA00118960 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 reconcile that, that you heard, maybe, 2 Tartaglione attempted to harm Epstein versus, 3 did you also hear that Epstein tried to commit 4 suicide? 5 MR. : The only thing I heard, and 6 like I said, was the Tartaglione thing, because 7 I knew it was an investigation. And I knew 8 Because my question was, well, why did this guy 9 move out the cell? That's when I heard it 10 through staff. Oh, yeah. He moved out the 11 cell because they were saying Tartaglione 12 assaulted him. And then, I knew because they 13 had FBI agents called in, and interviewed 14 Tartaglione. So, I knew that. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Like, that he was 17 interviewed. 18 MR. : Right. And did you know, 19 though -- 20 MR. : That he tried to -- 21 MR. : -- that Epstein was 22 MR. commit suicide? 23 MR. : -- placed on suicide 24 watch? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00118961 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, was it your 2 understanding that he attempted to commit 3 suicide, or that his cellmate tried to harm 4 him? 5 MR. : The only thing I know is 6 that he was placed on suicide watch. Remember, 7 he wasn't my inmate. So, that's the only thing 8 I remember about that incident. 9 MR. : And whose inmate was he? 10 MR. -: 11 MR. : So, that was also a 12 inmate. 13 MR. : Who you talking about? 14 MR. : Tartaglione. 15 MR. : Tartaglione. Yeah. At that 16 time, he was inmate. And then, he 17 became my inmate. 18 MR. : Okay. So -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- at the time, though 21 MR. -: and -. 22 MR. : -- Epstein, , and 23 Tartaglione were all inmates? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. I got nothing EFTA00118962 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 else. 2 MR. : I just wanted to clarify. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : You mentioned that - going 5 back to this phone call - you mentioned the 6 captain said to monitor and log the calls. But 7 there was no books. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : There was no book to keep the 10 log. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : What exactly did the captain 13 mean when he said monitor and log, when there 14 was no book to write the log in? What do you 15 think he meant by that? 16 MR. : Log it in the book, that 17 when there is no book. 18 MR. : So, was there supposed to 19 be a book? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. So, he -- 22 MR. : And once again, I made that 23 book. I'm the one -. There wasn't no books. 24 I made all those books that's there today. I 25 made those books. EFTA00118963 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 MR. : After the Epstein incident? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : And at that point, did the 4 captain know that there was no books? 5 MR. : He's the captain. So, I'm 6 going to say yes. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : But do you remember him 9 saying monitor and log it? 10 MR. : I kind of remember it. 11 Like, as you guys saying it - remember, it 12 happened so long - but yes, what I know was, I 13 mean, I didn't know there was no book at the 14 time until I went up to SHU and didn't see no 15 book. Because it would have been logged. 16 MR. : And you had to practice that, 17 if you gave a legal call, you would actually 18 log it on? 19 MR. : And that's the reason why I 20 actually made the -. I actually made the book 21 up. And then, today, there is a book in there 22 for legal calls and social calls. Today. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : If you go up there now. 25 MR. : That's not shutting off. EFTA00118964 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Sorry about that. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : I was going to move on. 5 There was another -- 6 MR. : Oh, please. 7 MR. -- so, then, I'm going to - 8 well passed it, too, a portion. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. "After OCME (Phonetic Sp. 11 *01:14:44)," and I think that stands for the 12 Office of Chief Medical Examiner, "Departed 13 with Epstein's body, returned to MCC, 14 and wrote a memo containing a timeline of 15 events, and a recap of the previous nights' 16 phone call." Now, I have a copy of the memo 17 here. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : At least, this is the copy _ 20 had. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : I'm going to read this. The 23 memorandum for file, Metropolitan Correctional 24 Center, August 10th, 2019. From N. 25 That's you? EFTA00118965 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Unit manager. Subject: 3 Inmate Epstein, Jeffrey. Reg number: 76318054. 4 "This memorandum is in regards of inmate 5 Epstein. Jeffrey, reg number 76318054. On 6 August 9th, 2019, I spoke with inmate Epstein, 7 concerning him making a call to his family. I 8 told inmate Epstein I was leaving the facility 9 around 7:00 p.m. Inmate Epstein agreed to 10 shorten his attorney visitation to make his 11 social call. I escorted inmate Epstein to 12 Special Housing Unit around 7:00 p.m. I placed 13 inmate Epstein in the shower on G-tier, and 14 escorted the phone for him to make the social 15 call. 16 I placed the phone in the first jack on 17 the left of G-tier. Inmate Epstein explained 18 to me that he didn't have his phone set up to 19 use his pack and pin number. I asked inmate 20 Epstein who he was calling. He stated his 21 mother. I remember dialing the number starting 22 with (347), but the number was not notated." 23 It says "notated." I'm guessing it says not. 24 You meant not notated? 25 MR. : And it actually was, but EFTA00118966 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 when I wrote the number down, you know how you 2 write it down on a piece of paper and put it in 3 your pocket, well, I couldn't find it. So, 4 there was no number. But I remember, vaguely, 5 what the number started with, because I 6 actually wrote it down, and I was going to - 7 that next day - ask the captain why we don't 8 have a logbook, and here's the numbers that he 9 actually called her. So. 10 MR. "Inmate Epstein began talking 11 on the phone. I told the staff to end inmate 12 Epstein's call after 15 minutes. They 13 complied." Is that the memo you wrote? 14 MR. : That is the memo I wrote. 15 MR. : Okay. Just, anything we show 16 you, which would be, in this case, the memo, 17 just initial it, and put today's date on it. 18 Today is September 21st. Here's a pen. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. The time? 20 MR. : You don't need the time. 21 Just the date and the initial. That's fine. 22 Thank you. I'm going to keep reading that. So 23 bear with me. provided this to Piv 24 , who is also new to the MCC. Captain 25 (Phonetic Sp. *01:17:18) had emailed EFTA00118967 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 , but responded that he couldn't 2 talk about the situation. The only colleague 3 whose phone number has is AW 4 because he had to use his personal phone to 5 email her his timeline of events, and pictures 6 of Epstein's body, prior to its transport by 7 OCME." Now, you said you - this states that 8 you used your personal phone to email pictures 9 of Epstein's body. Why did you use your 10 personal phone to take Epstein's -? 11 MR. : For one, R&D is supposed to 12 come out there. R&D is supposed to come out 13 there and fingerprint them. They came out 14 there. They fingerprinted and that was it. 15 Okay. So, me, knowing that, of course, they 16 want to know when we're leaving, because 17 sent me out there. So, I had to 18 stay with the body until the actual coroner 19 came. The coroner came. So, what I did was, 20 yes, I took the pictures, to let her know, yes, 21 I'm leaving now, this is the time I'm leaving. 22 This is his body. 23 Where I had proof that the inmate was 24 deceased, and he wasn't walking off somewhere 25 else. Because all the speculation now and in EFTA00118968 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 the news that he's not dead. So, I did that. 2 Boom, boom, boom. And I sent it to from my phone. This is, boom, boom, 4 boom. I left the hospital at this time, 5 arrived back at the institution at this time. 6 This is when they took his body and placed it 7 in here. This is a lot. This is where they 8 secured the inmate at. And then, I was able to 9 leave. 10 MR. : Were you instructed by 11 to take pictures? 12 MR. : I'm trying to think. It's 13 been so long. I could have. But I know I had 14 a reason why I took them. 15 MR. : And it was practice for 16 somebody to take pictures like that? 17 MR. : I would have did it for 18 and it didn't have to be Epstein - and this is 19 not my first time sitting on an inmate and the 20 coroner, but when we sit on an inmate, wait, we 21 have a camera from the institution. 22 MR. : Was there a -- 23 MR. : You see what I'm saying? 24 MR. : -- was there a camera this 25 time? Was there a camera this time? EFTA00118969 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : But it - once again - they 4 brought all the stuff there. So, R&D had a 5 camera. So, I don't know why they didn't leave 6 it with us (Indiscernible *01:19:31). I was 7 coming back to the institution. Because they 8 have a - each R&D has a briefcase, and in that 9 brief case is a camera, everything that you're 10 supposed to fingerprint an inmate on, and all 11 that stuff. And they have it for a reason, for 12 inmates that die. So, they could have left 13 that and said, hey, , when you guys 14 leave, you got to bring it back anyway, I'm 15 coming back to the institution. I'm going to 16 leave this briefcase with you. I would have, 17 then, took the pictures on that. But they 18 didn't. 19 MR. : So, they left with the 20 camera? 21 MR. : They left with everything. 22 MR. : And the phone number that you 23 texted to AW , was that her 24 personal or -? 25 MR. : That (804), if I'm correct, EFTA00118970 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 if it was (804), it should have been her BOP 2 cell number. I don't know if it was (804). 3 You have to -. Because I know I had, it was 4 two numbers. But I knew I only one number, and I think, if it was (804), 6 it was a prison number. It was her BOP phone. 7 MR. : Okay. And I'm going to keep 8 reading. 9 MR. : So, you texted her, not 10 emailed her. Correct? 11 MR. : No. But I did text her. 12 But the pictures went to her phone. 13 MR. : Her phone. So, texted 14 her -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- not email, because 17 doesn't it say email in there? 18 MR. : He said he emailed her his 19 timeline of events, and pictures of Epstein's 20 body, prior to its transport by OCME. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : So, did you email it to her, 23 or -? 24 MR. : It was email. Yeah. It was 25 text. EFTA00118971 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 MR. : So, you texted the pictures, 2 and emailed her 3 MR. : That is correct. 4 MR. -- the timeline of events? 5 MR. "After sending these 6 pictures, deleted them from his phone. 7 didn't speak, text, or email with 8 anyone else except his wife, who also works at 9 the MCC, in the food services section." Did 10 you forward those pictures to anybody else? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Did you tell anyone that you 13 had those pictures? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Or share them anywhere? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : And you don't have them? 19 And you deleted them 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : -- those photos. 22 MR. : You're free to look. 23 MR. : No, no, no. No. That's 24 fine. 25 MR. : No, I'm just saying. EFTA00118972 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : I mean, I'm not -. Listen. 3 Trust me. 4 MR. : No, no. We're just going 5 to say -- 6 MR. : I want to get them -- 7 MR. : -- if you have them, can 8 you send them to us? 9 MR. : -- no. No. I am not -. 10 Listen. No. I deleted them that day. 11 MR. : That's all I had in terms of 12 questions. Do you have anything? 13 MR. : Yeah. So, speaking of, 14 like, pictures of the -. That was the 15 hospital. Correct? 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Do you know if anyone was 18 there filming at the hospital? 19 MR. : Remember, there were so many 20 people. I can't recall because my biggest 21 thing was - with those officers - was to guara 22 that body. Now, do I believe that people was 23 there? There was people there. 24 MR. : No, I mean, like, was 25 that, like, you know how, like, if there is a, EFTA00118973 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 you know, some kind of a use of force that 2 you've got to use against your institution 3 (Indiscernible *01:21:51) film, was someone 4 MR. : No, no, no. 5 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 6 *01:21:54). 7 MR. : From us? 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : So, no one was 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : -- filming from the BOP? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : There was people from the 16 outside, though. I know that for a fact. 17 MR. : From where? 18 MR. : From the outside. 19 MR. : Outside. Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Do you know if Epstein 22 was deceased prior to leaving the MCC? 23 MR. : I wasn't there. I was the 24 duty officer. I was called by 25 And the only thing told me was, EFTA00118974 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 hey, , you need to get here ASAP. She 2 said Epstein attempted to commit suicide. I 3 was, like, okay. When I got there, he was 4 already at the hospital. He was deceased then. 5 So, she told me to report to the hospital, and 6 that's when I reported, and I noticed his 7 deceased body. 8 MR. : Do you know if, is there 9 any, like, rule, or unofficial or official, 10 that inmates can't be pronounced dead at the 11 MCC, or at the BOP facility? 12 MR. : That. There's not a policy. 13 They technically says it, but this, this rule 14 was - I came in at '94. That was an old rule. 15 when I was at MCC, Coleman, and when I was at 16 Coleman, Yazoo City, they pronounce them there. 17 The policy states it's not us. Our medical 18 people cannot pronounce an inmate dead. So, 19 let's say if an inmate, (Indiscernible 20 *01:23:13) or whoever, they have to be a 21 licensed, practiced. They can announce that 22 person dead - and I've seen it all the time - 23 at the jail. It's just common for them to say, 24 oh, he didn't die here. They always say that. 25 MR. : Do you -- EFTA00118975 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : But -. 2 MR. : -- do you believe, from 3 what you know now, two years later, that he was 4 deceased while he was here, at the MCC? 5 MR. : I believe it. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : I definitely believe it. 8 MR. : So, he wasn't still alive 9 when he left? 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And that's just, when I got 13 to the hospital, and what I saw, there is no 14 way. And like I said, this is not, like, in my 15 27 years, this is not my first time around a 16 dead inmate. So, I've seen inmates fall out, 17 and die. So, there's no way. And when I got 18 to the hospital, because they was transporting 19 him, I met them at the hospital. So -. 20 MR. : So, did you see them take 21 him out of the ambulance? 22 MR. : When I met them at the 23 hospital, he was -. When I got to the 24 hospital, you know how you - he was already out 25 the ambulance. He was driving him to a safe, EFTA00118976 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 secured area in the hospital room. But he was 2 already deceased. 3 MR. : Do you know if, at that 4 time, what he was wearing? 5 MR. : I can't recall. I can just 6 -. Whatever was on the video over the news, 7 that's what he was wearing. Because I mean, 8 that is on that there, with the thing in his 9 mouth. That's what he was wearing. 10 MR. : Okay. And then, as far 11 as, like, you know, all of the speculation 12 that's out there, do you have any information 13 that would suggest that Epstein did not take 14 his own life? 15 MR. : I don't because I wasn't 16 there. You know, and, you know, what I 17 speculate is totally different. I mean, it is 18 what it is. 19 MR. : Well, what is your 20 speculation? 21 MR. : I just believe that -. 22 don't know how they went in the room. So, I 23 wasn't there, of how they went in the room. 24 You know, because, you know, when the doctor 25 say, hey, (Indiscernible *01:25:29), I took EFTA00118977 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 inmates down in the room that was hanging, and 2 the only way you can get -. I don't care if 3 that inmate only weighs 140 pounds, you're not 4 doing it by yourself. 5 So, I don't know how they entered the 6 room. But policy states, when you go in the 7 room, you need to wait for a lieutenant. 8 Period. And you can't just pop that door. 9 Because how do you know that inmate is not 10 still living where he is trying to kill you, 11 and then escape? Or you definitely need help. 12 That's why you have to wait for a lieutenant, 13 because that lieutenant has to give you 14 instructions, go in, open it, helping you lift 15 that person, where if you go - to me - there is 16 no way, if it was two or three people, and we 17 picked that inmate up, they wouldn't say on the 18 news that his (Indiscernible *01:26:22). 19 I just think, me personally, and hadn't 20 heard anything, but I just think one person was 21 trying to do it by itself, and this, that's no 22 the proper way. And that's just my opinion. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Because in all the suicides, 25 and I've seen - I was at, remember, I was at EFTA00118978 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 Coleman USP-1, USP-2 - I've seen numerous, and 2 I was the SHU lieutenant. I'm going with at 3 least three or four people. Midnight, I 4 understand, at night, you only have, but it 5 don't matter. These inmates are locked down. 6 So, they can -. You can -. If I have a 7 hanging, they're already told. I'm already 8 telling people, you know to vacate that post. 9 Yes. 10 Anything can happen up there, but I would 11 rather have three or four people with me, in 12 the SHU, where inmate is attempting, because I 13 don't know what's going on. You know, we heard 14 all the stuff that went on witwhcn I 15 (Indiscernible *01:27:09) peppy, so definitely, 16 I don't want something happening at midnight, 17 when you could just vacate your post, come up 18 there, and respond. 19 MR. : So, is kind of what 20 you're saying, that, like, by having one 21 officer enter the cell, to respond -- 22 MR. : Should have never happened. 23 MR. : -- to Epstein, that could 24 actually cause more harm -- 25 MR. : Of course. EFTA00118979 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 MR. : -- are you talking about physically, though, too, not only the ruse teese (Phonetic Sp. *01:27:27) of, you know, this person could overpower you, and now have you as a hostage, but you could become - that person who was attempting to hang themself, or hanging themself MR. : Would it --- -- MR. : -- could it become more physical -- MR. : That is correct. MR. : -- during the attempt. MR. : Because what if - my thing is this - what if he was almost there, wasn't deceased, and what if you're trying to lift him, and, you know, lift him the right way, and you -. Because if, you know, remember, when they did the autopsy, then I would say, there's no way he's going to break that where, unless, you know, they was trying to say, you know, we killed them, unless one person is trying to do it. Epstein wasn't 140 pounds. He was 200 something. So, there is no way I could lift that dude. There's no way. So, I would never go in by myself. So, that's my speculation, EFTA00118980 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 where somebody tried to do it by themselves, 2 cover it up, and that's what I see. Maybe I'm 3 wrong. But that's my speculation. That's 4 always going to be my speculation. Because -- 5 MR. : So -- 6 MR. : -- I've been doing this for 7 too long. 8 MR. : -- so, you're speculating 9 that the individual who went in could have 10 harmed him more than helped him, but do you 11 have any reason to believe that anyone, 12 including that staff member, are actually the 13 one that harmed him in the first place? Like, 14 do you know what I'm saying? 15 MR. : Honestly, with them two, it 16 could have been anything. And that's just me. 17 It could have been. It could have been any. 18 Listen. I've seen a lot in the BOP. It could 19 have been anything. I don't know. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : It could have been anything. 22 MR. : Did you ever hear 23 anything about, like, letting one inmate's cell 24 door open, while also letting Epstein's cell 25 open -- EFTA00118981 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- so that -- 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : -- anything like that -? 5 MR. : No. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Have I heard it in the BOP? 8 Yes. In my 27 years. But in Epstein's case, 9 no. 10 MR. : Okay. So, that's never 11 been a rumor that you've heard, that another 12 inmate actually is the one that harmed Epstein? 13 MR. : I mean, you hear it, not in 14 the BOP, you hear it on the outside. I never 15 heard it on the BOP. Never heard staff, you 16 know, speculating that. Never. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Because if I would have, 19 probably would have wrote a memo about it. 20 MR. : All right. 21 MR. : Can I ask a question on that? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : You said you've seen inmates 24 hanging themselves before. Right? You've 25 seen, you've been in that situation before. EFTA00118982 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Many times. 2 MR. : How -? Is it possible for, 3 if you're responding, you go in with a couple 4 of C.O.s, is it possible to just break the cord 5 off -? 6 MR. : No. We don't do that. In 7 all my lieutenants' life, and I was a 8 lieutenant for 13 years, or regardless of the 9 fact, but mine, we're taught this. There's no 10 ifs, ands, or buts. You're taught to go in 11 with enough people. One person, if it's two 12 inmates in there, you have to -. Especially if 13 it's day watch, and you should have at least 14 ten people. That's just like if you're having 15 a use of force. If there is one person, close 16 to five. 17 If you can't get five, you at least want 18 to have four. I'm not going to have three 19 people. I'm going to wait until they get 20 there. It is what it is. Yes. Do we want to 21 save the inmate? Yes. The point is, still, 22 you've got to look at your safety, and it's 23 really - when you're going to use of force, 24 it's five to one. Two inmates, it's ten to 25 one. So, you always kind of use that concept. EFTA00118983 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 I will go in with one less, so we go in, our 2 job is one person lift the body, you have a cut 3 down tool, which is here. I have one. And you 4 cut the inmate down. That's a cut down tool. 5 MR. : That's what they refer to as 6 a cutter? 7 MR. : That's considered a cut down 8 tool. If you look it up, it will be a cut down 9 tool. You get them from Galls(Indiscernible 10 *01:30:55). 11 MR. : But if they say, oh, he 12 used a cutter to cut him down, that's what 13 they're talking about. Correct? 14 MR. : They had -. They didn't 15 have something like this. I guess the new 16 warden wanted to order some. They cut down 17 tool, to me, it was dull. I mean, it was a 18 small little cut down tool where, let's say 19 you're cutting down something, to me, if yoe 20 don't hold that inmate upright, you're doing 21 more damage, because you're trying to cut it 22 down. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, you're doing like this, 25 and what are you doing? You're shaking EFTA00118984 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whatever is on his neck, if it's tight, you're shaking it down. These right here are actual cut down tools, where you're going to go like this one time, and it's just going to cut it. So, the thing is, too, and, you know, there he is. Let's say you do have -. Every SHU has cut down tools. Because they do. But once again, who is responsible? That's the captain. Checking equipment. Making sure your equipment is not dull. After two or three years, if you're not using something, you're always supposed to check that equipment. It's normal. And then, psychology, they always do their mock m4e drills. They do their moc4e—m4e drills, I think, quarterly. You know, pretend somebody is cut. So, at that time, I would check myself, but I don't - me personally - I would check myself. You just -. You would -. I wouldn't want to go to a hanging, and then I'm sitting there like this, because once again, how does that look to me? How does that look? Like, if they did have a camera in the cell. And it doesn't look right. MR. : Speaking of cameras, do you have any information, or reason to believe, EFTA00118985 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 anyone potentially knocked off the cameras in 2 the SHU? 3 MR. : Hmm. Actually, when I was 4 at the MCC, I thought, I knew that every camera 5 was working. And that's just me -. My -. 6 Because they even had cameras in the cell. I 7 mean, did they tell you that? They had cameras 8 in the cell. 9 MR. : G-tier, and 10 South. 10 MR. : 10 South. 11 MR. : Right? 12 MR. : Hmm. I don't know if it was 13 just. I don't know if it was just the G-tier. 14 They had -. No. I don't want to say that. 15 They had -. Because when we went in some cells 16 17 MR. : Okay, that was the end of 18 the range, or each end of each range has a 19 camera. 20 MR. : No. I'm not talking about 21 that. You have No. I - listen - I've been 22 in MCC long enough, I know G-tier. I know all 23 that. But they had some cameras in some cells, 24 and not specific cells. Do I remember offhand? 25 No. But they had those. I'm telling you they EFTA00118986 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lz_ 1 had them. Because I remember going in the 2 cell, taking the inmate out. On what's that? 3 You have K, N, J, and K. Whatever is on the 4 bottom. I remember taking inmates out, and 5 show the camera. Because the inmate had, the 6 inmate had tissue on the camera. So, I was, 7 like, what are you doing with tissue? I'm 8 telling you. This is, like, no more than, 9 like, six months ago. I remember taking tissue 10 off the -. So, and that was an old camera. 11 So, it was -. There is cameras in the cells. 12 MR. : So, you said six months ago, 13 from today or six months from the Epstein 14 incident? 15 MR. : No. From today, but those 16 cameras been -. Those are old cameras. 17 They're not, like -. I can tell the new 18 cameras are new cameras, I know how they look. 19 All the new cameras they just put in, that's an 20 old camera. 21 MR. : Was it -- 22 MR. : And I -. 23 MR. in dry cell? 24 MR. : That was not in dry cell. 25 I'm telling you. It's probably there still EFTA00118987 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 now. It's - I'm telling you - it's an old 2 camera. 3 MR. : So, but do you have any 4 information that someone intentionally knocked 5 the cameras offline? 6 MR. : Hmm. 7 MR. : Or just your speculation? 8 MR. : My thing is, I can tell you 9 this, I knew when the cameras was working, no, 10 it wasn't the captain. But any time a camera 11 was down, like, there would be - how you say 12 it? - it will be -. It was almost, like, 13 nationalized. Okay. Just cameras down. So, 14 we would know. And then, it would be forced to 15 make sure they fix it. Like, ASAP. 16 So, if the cameras was down, especially 17 certain cameras, they wouldn't even let inmates 18 out. They won't let them out. Because we 19 can't see certain things. So, I don't 20 was shocked to see that cameras wasn't 21 was very shocked. Very. Because with those 22 cameras, I think you could have saw more, and 23 it could have either helped or hindered people. 24 It didn't matter. I would rather for the 25 cameras to work. I don't care whether it's EFTA00118988 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 there to get me or not. If the cameras was 2 working, I think the investigation would have 3 completed probably a long time ago. 4 MR. : Yeah. Do you know who 5 was in charge of the cameras? 6 MR. : The captain. Because it 7 falls on the com tech. No. I'm sorry. Com 8 tech is, I want to say, com tech. Com tech. 9 Communication. 10 MR. : Facilities manager, but - 11 12 MR. : No. But it's still going to 13 be the captain because it's both of them 14 together, facilities manager and the captain, 15 because if something is not working, the 16 captain should know first. 17 MR. : But how would have the 18 captain, or the facilities manager, have found 19 out? Who would have told them? 20 MR. : Communications. They 21 should. Listen, if a camera is not working in 22 there, communications. That is - at that time, 23 it was . So, job is to report 24 that. Immediately. Hey, number one, number 25 seven, number eight in SHU was not working. EFTA00118989 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 Number boom, boom, boom. We don't know. But 2 that's his job. If a camera goes offline, it's 3 his job to say this camera is offline. So, the 4 captain, then, could make that decision of what 5 they want to do. Of how they want to go about 6 things. That's his job. That's 7 communications. 8 MR. : Remember those initials 9 that we read earlier today? They're not 10 but whomever else would have been 11 checking -- 12 MR. : I'm trying to think who -- 13 MR. : -- out those, I think it 14 was the CMS or something like that. 15 MR. : The only person who was in 16 there then was . That I'm aware of. 17 MR. : No, that's who he would have 18 contacted as -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : -- as (Indiscernible 21 *01:36:45). 22 MR. : But that was a BOP 23 person. 24 MR. : No. It's an office, I think. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00118990 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : Oh. 2 MR. -: was the only 3 contractor, I mean, com, because they just 4 hired another person. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : And he wasn't Yeah. 7 MR. : So -- 8 MR. : It was just 9 MR. would have been 10 the only person. 11 MR. : Yeah. It was just 12 MR. : Is there an office inside the 13 BOP called the CMS? 14 MR. : That's right by the -. 15 Where all the stuff is at? For the cameras and 16 all that. Where they -? 17 MR. : Was it called? The CMS. 18 We're just trying to figure out what that is. 19 MR. : Yeah. That's Camera 20 Maintenance -. Camera Maintenance System. So 21 22 MR. : So, it's a thing. Not a 23 person. 24 MR. : -- yeah, it's a thing. You 25 go -- EFTA00118991 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- you go right by the 3 lieutenant's office, and it's right in the back 4 of the (Indiscernible *01:37:22) -- 5 MR. : So, he probably -- 6 MR. you open that door 7 MR. : -- checked in the CMS, 8 not checking with the, like -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- another person. 11 MR. : Well, he said he checked 12 with the team. Well, that's -. It could be 13 If he checked with the CMS, well, I only 14 remember system, but that would be somebody in 15 the region. But his office is there. Like, he 16 could open that office, if something is down, 17 he know why it's down. Then he would report 18 that to either somebody higher. Either 19 regional or somebody, hey, this camera, what's 20 going on? Like, central office, or somebody. 21 Just like the phones. If the phones are down, 22 it's the central office guy that usually fix 23 the phone. So, it could have been the central 24 office, or the regional office. So, that could 25 have been the CMS he was talking about. EFTA00118992 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Go ahead. Sorry. MR. : Just last clarifying. Just, I know I asked you the question. Was it, do you think it would have been possible if Thomas walked in, he sees Epstein, like, laying there, hanging? As one person, do you think he could have just pulled the rope, and yanked it off himself? MR. MR. MR. : Ripped it. : Ripped it off. : Everybody was nervous at the time. If I know for a fact I screwed up, what's the first -? What's the first thing a kid do that (Indiscernible *01:38:30)? Easily, I'm going in by myself. I'm trying to rip this off. I'm trying to get this dude because, I already know I messed up. I was either sleeping or doing whatever I was doing. I was wrong. And his cell was right there. Well, I could see all the activity that this guy is doing. All I have to do is go do a round. That's it. So, if I'm not doing something, and I know I messed up, I'm going to try to fix it. MR. : Was it possible for him to pull it off without a cutter? EFTA00118993 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 MR. : If the cutter wasn't 2 working. That sheet? No. It's hard as -. 3 Listen. I tried cutting - because, you know, 4 inmates hang stuff, and we tell them not to. 5 So, I tried taking one off, and burnt my whole 6 hand. Like, I mean, it was literally, I had to 7 take a sheet, and pull it, and you're going to 8 burn your whole -. My whole hand was burnt for 9 about a month. So, it's hard. Because my 10 understanding is, it was a sheet. So, if it's 11 a sheet, then just knock it down? No. And if 12 he had it knotted right, there's no way you 13 could take it down by your hand. 14 MR. : And if a cutter was not used, 15 if they said a cutter was not, you yanked it 16 off, you think that's not possible? You're 17 saying that's not possible? 18 MR. : Hmm. I saw what the media, 19 how his room was set up. Actually, I've been 20 up there. I saw it because they had the room 21 carved there for the FBI. That sheet is so 22 heavy, how -? And if -. Now, to untie it, and 23 then a knot come untie, yes. But if the knot 24 was still there, and you cut it, like this, 25 there's no way. There -. I don't -. Listen, EFTA00118994 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 man. I'm strong. I know Thomas (Indiscernible 2 *01:40:05). I work out. There's no way I'm 3 going to just pull a sheet, and just come in. 4 There's no way. There's no way. 5 MR. : Be similar to, like, 6 saying that he ripped a rope in half -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- right? 9 MR. : Once again, these are little 10 ropes that they put. Like that. On a bed. 11 They had it tied tight enough to where I 12 couldn't do it in the knot (Indiscernible 13 *01:40:27). I did that and burnt my whole 14 hand. So, I had to -. That's why I wind up 15 getting a cutter, so I could cut -. I had 16 burnt my whole hand for a month. It was a deep 17 scar. There is no way. There is And that, 18 I saw the spread. There is no way you're going 19 I yank a spread off to -. That you could 20 (Indiscernible *01:40:40). Unless it's coming, 21 unraveling from the actual knot. You know how 22 you do your shoelace? 23 MR. Yeah. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : That's it. There's no way EFTA00118995 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 2 - the biggest person in there was - not 3 even he could probably do it.p y it opcn 4 MR. -: 5 MR. 6 MR. 7 MR. -: 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : He can't even do it. A2 1 10 he's a big dude. There's no way. 11 MR. : Anything else? 12 MR. : Anything that we're 13 missing, that we should know about? 14 (Indiscernible *01:41:14). 15 MR. : You guys are right on point. 16 MR. : Well, you've been very 17 helpful. Thank you. 18 MR. : Thank you for taking the time 19 to talk to us today. 20 MR. : You're welcome. 21 MR. : If there is anything you can 22 think about in the future, if you think there's 23 any information that might help us in the 24 investigation, please feel free to reach out 25 MR. : No problem. you're going to do it. There's no -. Not even meaning -- EFTA00118996 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. -- and share that information. MR. clarify, though, with the AW, - you sent it to her, you sent those pictures to her government phone. Correct? MR. : That is correct. MR. : Okay. MR. : And her - and MR. : (Indiscernible MR. : -- if it was it was a -. I don't -. I didn't -- MR. -- (804) or (840)? MR. : (840). MR. : (840). MR. : I think that's her. Wherever she came from, usually, if a AW come from one institution to another, they can actually keep their government phone. MR. : Okay. MR. : They just register it with the agency here. MR. : But you sent it - let me like I said *01:41:38). (840), I think Okay. Perfect. All right. Well, thank you very much. MR. Yes. This is Special Agent EFTA00118997 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 . The time is 2:32 p.m. on 2 September 21st, 2021. We are ending the 3 interview. 132 EFTA00118998 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Transcriber EFTA00118999