EFTA00119019.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 OCTOBER 27, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00119019 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 EDWARD HAYES 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00119020 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I am a Senior 3 Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 MR. : Okay. Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : This interview with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - is it 10 11 MR. -: 12 MR. : Is being conducted as 13 part of an official U.S. Department of Justice, 14 Office of the Inspector General investigation. 15 Today's date is October 27th, 2021, and the 16 time is 1:53 p.m. This interview is being 17 conducted - what is the -? Is it 1515? 18 MR. : 515. 19 MR. : 515? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 UNKNOWN MALE: Madison Avenue. 31st 22 floor. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 . New York, New York. Also 25 present is DOJ/OIG Special Agent EFTA00119021 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 As well as -- 2 UNKNOWN MALE: Edward Hayes. 3 MR. : -- Mr. 4 attorney. I'm sorry. What is it? 5 MR. HAYES: Edward Hayes. H-A-Y-E-S. 6 First name E-D-W-A-R-D. 7 MR. : Thank you, sir. Who is 8 representing Mr. . This interview will 9 be recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 10 . could everyone please identify 11 themselves for the record, and spell your last 12 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior 13 Special Agent, 14 15 MR. : This is DOJ Special Agent 16 . And these are my 17 credentials. 18 MR. : Okay. And I am -- 19 MR. HAYES: I can't -- 20 MR. 21 MR. HAYES: I can't show you any 22 credentials. 23 MR. . First name -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. . And EFTA00119022 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 last name 2 3 MR. : Thank you, sir. Do you 4 happen to one -- 5 MR. HAYES: I still don't know how he 6 pronounces his name. Is it -? Yeah. And I'm 7 so arrogant that I don't carry identification. 8 You know what I mean? 9 MR. : No. That's fine. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. But you are sitting 11 down here, you are willing to pay the fee. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. HAYES: You know who I am. 14 MR. : So, I am looking at Mr. 15 law enforcement officer credentials. 16 And it has a picture. And a signature of the 17 gentleman sitting in front of me. Thank you, 18 sir. And his attorney, do you mind - and 19 again, it's Edward -- 20 MR. HAYES: Edward 21 MR. : -- Hayes. 22 MR. HAYES: -- Hayes. And I'm sorry, I 23 don't have -. I really -- 24 MR. : No. That's quite all 25 right. EFTA00119023 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: -- as I say -- 2 MR. : But you are 3 MR. HAYES: -- Edward Hayes. I'm his 4 lawyer. 5 MR. : -- perfect, and we're in 6 your office. 7 MR. HAYES: Right. 8 MR. : This is an official 9 DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate 10 Jeffrey Epstein and the circumstances 11 surrounding it, and you are being asked to 12 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 13 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 14 the DOJ/OIG? 15 MR. : Yes, I will. 16 MR. : Thank you, sir. This is 17 the form that we have to do all interviews, 18 interviewees. 19 MR. HAYES: Is that form B? 20 MR. : This is the OIG form III- 21 226/2. 22 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : But it says is - I'm 25 going to read it for you - United States EFTA00119024 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 2 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 3 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 4 Basis. It says, "You are being asked to 5 provide information as part of an investigation 6 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 7 General. This investigation is being conducted 8 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 9 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 10 performance failure, and security failure." 11 And this is what we are writing for everyone 12 that we speak to, just because we're looking at 13 it as a -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- whole of what 16 happened. "This is a voluntary interview. 17 Accordingly, you do not have to answer 18 questions. No disciplinary action will be 19 taken against you if you chose not to answer 20 questions. Any statements you furnish may be 21 used as evidence in any future criminal 22 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 23 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver 24 section. It says, "I understand the Warnings 25 and Assurances stated above, and I am willing EFTA00119025 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 to make a statement and answer questions. No 2 promises or threats have been made to me, and 3 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 4 used against me." If you would like to take a 5 look at it, you may. If you agree to it, if 6 you want your attorney to look at it, he may, 7 as well. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : You can sign where it 10 says "Employee Signature." And then, also 11 write your name. I did read it verbatim. 12 MR. HAYES: I'm sure you did. Okay. 13 There is no place that said attorneys -- 14 MR. : No, no, no. 15 MR. HAYES: -- signatures. 16 MR. : It's not for you to sign. 17 It's for him, myself, and the witness. It's 18 just if you wanted to review it, or ask any -- 19 MR. HAYES: No, that's all right. 20 MR. : -- questions about it. 21 MR. HAYES: That's all right. I do have a 22 question. 23 MR. : Where do you want me to 24 sign? 25 MR. HAYES: In other words, if you say to EFTA00119026 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 him -- 2 MR. : Oh, so, where it says -- 3 MR. : Right side. 4 MR. : -- "Employee Signature." 5 MR. HAYES: Do you have sex with ducks? 6 And so, I'm not going to answer that question. 7 That's the - he can't get in trouble for that? 8 MR. : I won't be asking that 9 question. 10 MR. HAYES: I mean, (Indiscernible 11 *00:04:18). 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:04:20). 13 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:04:22). 14 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:04:21). 15 Okay. 16 MR. : Under the interview that 17 we are doing right now, for voluntary 18 interviews, he doesn't have to answer our 19 questions. 20 MR. : Okay. Great. 21 MR. : All right. So, thank you 22 for signing that, sir. Did you have any 23 questions on the form? 24 MR. : No, I don't. 25 MR. : All right. So, I'm EFTA00119027 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 signing as the signature of the Office of the 2 Inspector General, Special Agent. I'm printing 3 my name. 4 MR. HAYES: Oh, one thing. So, 5 ordinarily, I would take notes. I've been at 6 Jim Rad (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:49) for 50 years, 7 as you saw, to which my body is falling apart. 8 I had severe arthritis in my neck, and it's 9 radiated down to my hands. I can't really 10 basically write. So, that's why -- 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. HAYES: -- I'm not taking notes. But 13 I have a pretty good memory, so, yeah. 14 MR. : All right. Great. 15 , can you just sign as the witness? 16 MR. : Oh. 17 MR. : Put your name and take 18 care of the rest of the form. 19 MR. : This is Special Agent 20 I'm signing as the witness, and dating 21 it. 22 MR. : All right. Before 23 starting the interview, I would like to place 24 you under oath. Mr. can you please 25 raise your right hand? EFTA00119028 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Do you swear to tell the 3 truth and nothing but the truth during this 4 interview? 5 MR. : I do. 6 MR. : Thank you, sir. What is 7 your current home address? 8 MR. -: 9 Burlington, New Jersey. 08016. 10 MR. : And what is your date of 11 birth? 12 MR. -: 13 MR. : And what -- 14 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 15 MR. : -- what is the 16 MR. HAYES: I'm old. 17 MR. : -- what are the last four 18 of your social security number? 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Is it correct that you 21 were interviewed regarding the Epstein matter 22 on August 19th, 2019? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Or in August of 2019. 25 MR. : I know it was some time in EFTA00119029 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 August. 2 MR. : Correct. Okay. How long 3 have you worked for the BOP? 4 MR. : 30 years. And August, 5 September, October, November. 30 years and 6 three months. 7 MR. : All right. And what is 8 your current position with the BOP? 9 MR. : I'm the Warden at FCI Fort 10 Dix. 11 MR. : Okay. And what are your 12 You are the warden, you said? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Were you previously a 15 regional director? 16 MR. : I was the deputy regional 17 director in Philadelphia. 18 MR. : And how long have you 19 been the warden at FCI Fort Dix? 20 MR. : About two or three weeks. 21 Two weeks. 22 MR. : Oh, so -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- it's a brand -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119030 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- new position? 2 MR. : It just got there. Yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. How long were you 4 the deputy regional director? 5 MR. : I got it in February. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Of 2021. 8 MR. : Okay. And as the deputy 9 regional director, what were your duties and 10 responsibvilities? 11 MR. : Monitoring he activities of 12 the 20 institutions in the region, and, you 13 know, managing the administratives within the 14 northeast region, and, you know, showing that 15 institutions were running in an orderly 16 fashion. 17 MR. : Now, did you supervise 18 the various wardens at those institutions? 19 MR. : Yes. I was over there. I 20 was the rating official on some of the 21 evaluations. 22 MR. : And were you a warden 23 prior to that position? 24 MR. : Yes, I was. 25 MR. : Where were you a warden? EFTA00119031 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : In New York. MCC. The 2 Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York. 3 MR. : And how long were you a 4 warden there? 5 MR. : I came from May of - '17, 6 '18 - May of '18 until, I forget the date, in 7 2020. I forget what it was. 8 MR. : Okay. So, May 2018 to 9 some time in 2020 -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- when you became the 12 regional director? 13 MR. : No. The position 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- prior to that, I was 16 given -- 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- was a liaison to the 19 regional director. And then, I went into the 20 deputy position. 21 MR. : Okay. Sounds good. Ana 22 August of 2019, though, were you a warden at 23 the MCC New York? 24 MR. : Yes, I was. 25 MR. : Thank you, sir. And are EFTA00119032 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 15 1 you familiar with inmate Jeffrey Epstein, who 2 was housed within the MCC in July and August of 3 2019? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Yes. Okay. Great. What 6 I have here is an after-action report that was 7 written by the BOP. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Have you seen this? 10 MR. : I have not seen that. 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 12 not something that you are actually familiar 13 with? 14 MR. : No, I am not. 15 MR. : No one discussed any 16 findings or anything like that with you? 17 MR. : No one. 18 MR. : All right. I'm going to 19 set this aside just in case we need to, you 20 know, reference it. So, no role in the after- 21 action report? 22 MR. : Nothing. I wasn't 23 interviewed. I wasn't spoken to. 24 MR. : All right. Do you know 25 of anybody interviewed, or I mean, talked to EFTA00119033 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and at least about, like, providing the 2 information that they utilized to this report? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : No. Okay. Fair enough. 5 After the incident occurred, what was your role 6 with determining what happened and what didn't 7 happen after Epstein was found on August 10th, 8 2019? 9 MR. : Well, I responded to the 10 institution. At the time, when I got there, he 11 was at the hospital. So, I didn't go up to the 12 unit, as far as - because it was a crime scene, 13 and I've always been trained, if it was a crime 14 scene, if you weren't particularly there, the 15 least amount of people that, you know, that go 16 through that crime scene, just don't go into 17 it. So, I didn't go into it, but you know, 18 basically gathering information on what 19 happened, notifying the region, notifying the 20 FBI. The IG. 21 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *00:09:28). 22 He's already got that phone call. 23 MR. : Oh. 24 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah, you know what I 25 mean? Jeffrey Epstein -- EFTA00119034 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 17 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. HAYES: -- like, fuck it, I'm going to 3 sell. Oh, okay. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: That's why we do it for the 6 next six months. 7 MR. : So, there was a lot of 8 notification on what happened. Trying to find 9 out the status of inmate Epstein. And things 10 more along those lines. 11 MR. : Now, did you help with 12 gathering information, up until a certain 13 point, and then, were you told not to anymore, 14 or did you continue to gather -? 15 MR. : No, like, my boss was 16 calling me the regional director. They needed 17 information. You know, starting a timeline on 18 what happened. So, I had my executive 19 assistant there, and, you know, we would just 20 gather any information, and just, you know, 21 making sure that, you know, things that were 22 requested were being provided to them, any 23 information. 24 MR. : And who was the regional 25 director at the time? EFTA00119035 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time. MR. MR. your executive assistant? MR. Dia. *00:10:21). MR. : Okay. : It was , at the : Okay. And then, who was MR. MR. • • • MR. : Now, as part of our investigation, we have to review everyone's emails, with regard to the incident. MR. : Right. MR. : So, you mentioned that you provided Mr. with timelines -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- and things like that. So, these are just some timelines from - again, Mr. Epstein, I believe, was found around 6:33 a .m. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : In the Special Housing Unit. This is a timeline starting with, it looks like, August 10th, 2019, at 11:04 a.m. So, a few hours after the fact. It just says, EFTA00119036 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 it says, "See below. Just to ensure you know 2 what is being relayed to DOJ." Now, is this -. 3 And then, what I have behind it is, these are 4 different timelines that are all updated 5 throughout the day. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Here is one that was at 8 2:21 p.m. Same date. And then, the next one 9 was 3:42 p.m. And the next one was August 10 12th. And then, the final one that we have is 11 the August 13th. So, these, do these look like 12 the timelines that you would have been 13 gathering information and providing to Mr. 14 15 MR. : Okay. It looks like it. 16 MR. : Now, where were you 17 actually obtaining this information from? You 18 said III was obtaining it for you? 19 MR. : He was the exec, we recall, 20 and in that, I'm not too familiar on the 21 specifics on how we get it, because there was 22 so much going on. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : That, you know, I don't 25 recall if it was from the logbooks, or, you EFTA00119037 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 know, calling around and trying to find out. 2 So, I don't really recall the specifics. 3 MR. : All right. Well, rather 4 than get into each one of these, because it 5 will take too long, I'll just do the very first 6 one. It says, it just says, "7/23/2019, at 7 1:27 a.m., Epstein found in fetal position in 8 cell, breathing, but would not acknowledge 9 staff initially." So, that is referring to the 10 first initial attempt that Epstein may have had 11 on his life? 12 MR. : Let me see which one. Are 13 we talking the day of, or -? 14 MR. : No. This is 15 MR. : This is July. 16 MR. : -- yeah, July, 17 (Indiscernible *00:12:40) 27. 18 MR. : Oh, no. This is July. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : This is the 21 MR. : So, this is the 22 MR. : -- no, the -- 23 MR. -: -- timeline. 24 MR. this would -. We would 25 have probably got this from the SIS EFTA00119038 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 investigation. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : From that. I thought you 4 were referring to the actual suicide. This is 5 6 MR. : No. What I meant was -- 7 MR. : -- this is -. 8 MR. : -- just the information 9 that was all put in there, as far as -- 10 MR. HAYES: This was his first attempt. 11 MR. : -- well, it's everything. 12 So, so, it starts July 23rd. The next one is 13 July 29th. And it goes 8/9/2019. And then, 14 and then, until -. So, it's only - there is 15 only a few. That's why I was going to read it, 16 just because there is only, like, three 17 paragraphs, four or five, four or five 18 paragraphs. 19 MR. : So, this looks to me like we 20 sentd the information to the regional director 21 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- and what he did was, 24 compile this information to send to DOJ. 25 MR. : Okay. Oh, you're right. EFTA00119039 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : III -- 3 MR. : This is not -- 4 MR. : -- sent this to you. So, 5 he is saying -- 6 MR. : -- yeah, this thing. 7 MR. : -- "see below -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- just ensure you know." 10 MR. : so, this is compiled off of 11 several different documents -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : -- which he condensed. 14 MR. : So -- 15 MR. : From -. 16 MR. : -- he sent it to you. 17 I'm sorry. I read that incorrectly. So, 18 looking at this, then, let's just review it and 19 make each point, just make sure that it's what 20 you understand. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, 21 Epstein was found in a fetal position in cell, 22 breathing, but would not acknowledge staff 23 initially." 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : —"After removed, he EFTA00119040 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 interacted with staff and speaking to staff. 2 Neck was red. Placed on suicide watch, and 3 medical evaluation. Epstein receive daily 4 psychological evaluations while on suicide 5 watch." Was that your recollection, too? 6 MR. : Yeah. That is what is in 7 the report. But I want to -- 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : -- clarify what we went -. 10 You know, when I, when you first read it to me 11 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : I thought you meant the 14 day of. 15 MR. : Yup, yup. 16 MR. : So -- 17 MR. : Well, we have that, too. 18 That's -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- that one is here. And 21 this one is from you, and this is what I 22 thought it was starting with, as well. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Because it said timeline 25 on it. From you to Mr. This initial EFTA00119041 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 one actually talks about Friday, August 9th, 2 2019. It starts with, "8:00 a.m., inmate Reyes 3 Efrain, reg number 85993-054, departs for 4 court. WAB-USMS-SDNY. Reyes is Epstein's 5 cellmate." 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So, just starting with 8 that, then, I do have, we're going to get into 9 that later, but what does that tell you, if it 10 says inmate Reyes is departing for court, but 11 it also says WAB-USMS-SDNY? 12 MR. : So, that would mean With All 13 Belongings. 14 MR. : So, that means he's not 15 returning. Correct? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : All right. So, at 8:00 18 a.m., Efrain Reyes is actually leaving, not 19 coming back to the MCC. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : All right. Great. And 22 then, it just goes on from there, what happens 23 throughout that day. And we're going to get 24 into these things more in detail, so I don't 25 want to go through each thing, because we're EFTA00119042 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 going to have to get into it later. But so, 2 this information is stuff that you guys were 3 compiling, and you were providing to Mr. 4 5 MR. : That would probably be 6 information that we sent up to him. 7 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 8 this is all the updates that occurred 9 afterwards. Let's see. Why is that 10 highlighted? So, here is something. Why, dDo 11 you know why in this one, it would be updated? 12 This one is 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and then, 13 "7:32 a.m., PIO notified of incident by the 14 warden." Is that just, put that in the wrong 15 place or something, and it says, "Inmate Reyes 16 released from court." 17 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:16:27). 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:16:30) 19 just in the wrong spot. It was made for August 20 10th. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. (Indiscernible 22 *00:16:34). 23 MR. : Yeah. Okay. So, the 24 next one, that is the big discrepancy here. It 25 just shows the next update, you have that under EFTA00119043 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 August - or Saturday - August 10th. 2 MR. : This can't be -. This 3 doesn't make -. I don't know. Because it 4 says, "PIO notified of incident by the warden." 5 I was off that day, on Friday. I wasn't at 6 work. 7 MR. : Yeah. So, that's why I 8 think that they So, the next one I'm 9 looking at shows that that point is now under 10 Saturday, August 10th. 11 MR. : Yeah. I don't know why it 12 would be -- 13 MR. : So -- 14 MR. : -- under Friday, because I 15 wasn't -- 16 MR. : -- yeah. Okay. 17 MR. I wasn't working. 18 MR. : So, you were actually off 19 20 MR. : I was off -- 21 MR. : -- off on August 9th? 22 MR. : -- on Friday. Yes. 23 MR. : All right. You and 24 everyone else. 25 MR. : Huh? EFTA00119044 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 MR. : Everybody was off that 2 day. 3 MR. : Yeah. I didn't come back to 4 work until, when I got called, there was a 5 suicide at the (Indiscernible *00:17:28). 6 MR. : Okay. So, all of this. 7 So, if I can have that back, if you don't mind. 8 So, all of this. All right. Is it safe to 9 assume that, as this went on, and specifically, 10 the last one that we have is Tuesday, August 11 13th, 2019. The Tuesday 13th, August 13th, 12 would be the most accurate timeline? 13 MR. : It should be, but I don't 14 want to attest to it. I mean -- 15 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 16 MR. yeah. 17 MR. : I'm just saying, based 18 is there any reason for you to believe that the 19 timelines that were provided, or in any way, it 20 was determined that, you know, we should add a 21 point that actually didn't occur? Or is it 22 safe to assume that, the last one that was sent 23 would be the most accurate one? 24 MR. : That's how it typically 25 works. At, you know, but I can't, I can't EFTA00119045 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 attest to it -- 2 MR. : And yeah. 3 MR. : -- of whether it was 4 accurate, but typically, the last one that you 5 send usually, you know, if you have to make 6 corrections, you make the corrections. Aded 7 information, if you have to. 8 MR. : Sure. Okay. Great. 9 When I show you things, it's not attesting to 10 it, but -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : I'm going to ask you 13 just to initial and date, and that's just to 14 say, specifically, that this is the document we 15 looked atr—and when we spoke. It is absolutely 16 not attesting to it. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : It's not saying that this 19 stuff is accurate. 20 MR. : And so, I write the date -- 21 MR. : If you could -- 22 MR. and put reviewed on it, 23 or -? 24 MR. : nope. Just your 25 initial and date. I'm just going to do this EFTA00119046 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 last one, just the top of it. I'm not going to 2 have you do every single one. And I'm going to 3 put this in a pile, back in a paper clip, and 4 I'm going to hand it to my friend over here. 5 MR. : What's the date? The 18th? 6 MR. : 27th. 7 MR. : 27th. 8 MR. : 10/27/21. 9 MR. : Thank you, sir, for 10 initialing and dating that. All right. I', 11 going to just actually, because it's the 12 timeline, I'm going to keep it in front of me 13 because we might have to reference it. 14 MR. HAYES: I can tell -- 15 MR. : All right. 16 MR. HAYES: -- this is going to be a long- 17 ass interview. 18 MR. : It's going to be pretty 19 long. That's where I was trying to -- 20 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Just -. 21 MR. : -- you know? All right. 22 So, July 23rd incident. That was, what do you 23 recall what happened on July 23rd with inmate 24 Tartaglione and Mr. Epstein? Do you recall? 25 MR. : I recall the investigation EFTA00119047 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 that couldn't determine if they had an 2 altercation, or I believe if it was an attempt 3 at suicide. 4 MR. : All right. So -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- so, something happened 7 on the July 23rd -- 8 MR. : Something happened -- 9 MR. where Mr. 10 MR. in his cell. 11 MR. : -- Epstein was found 12 with, like, a - was it a noose around his neck? 13 MR. : It wasn't determined. It 14 was, you know, that he was laying in his cell, 15 but I don't recall the specifics of the report. 16 But I know it went back and forth where there 17 was a suicide attempt, or an issue with inmate 18 19 MR. : Tartaglione. 20 MR. : -- with - yeah - 21 Tartaglione. Yeah. 22 MR. : All right. So, these are 23 emails that we reviewed with regard -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- to that incident. EFTA00119048 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : So, this one is 3 specifically from, it says . Was that -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : -- your AW? 7 MR. : That is the AW. 8 MR. : Send it to you? 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : And this is a memo from, 11 it says Mr. is the 12 operations lieutenant. 13 MR. : Yeah. Lieutenant. She's a 14 female. 15 MR. : Right. This is where I 16 wanted to ask you if you knew -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- about this. It 19 specifically says, so, it was originally, I 20 guess, sent from Captain to AW Skipper- 21 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- from to 24 you. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119049 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 32 1 MR. : And her note to you says, 2 "From the memo attached, the information I 3 received is not what I was told happened." 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : So, what I wanted to know 6 is, and I guess, would you like me just to 7 refresh your memory, to really quickly read 8 what she said happened, so we can figure out 9 what it is that didn't happen? 10 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 12 subject, "Possible suicide attempt." Again, 13 July 23rd, 2019. It says, "On July -". Let me 14 just sit back so you can just kind of read 15 along with me. Would you mind if I sit next to 16 you? 17 MR. : No. No problem. 18 MR. : I'm vaccinated, just so 19 you know. It says, "On July 23rd, 2019, at 20 approximately 1:27 a.m., a call for assistance 21 on the Special Housing Unit was announced by 22 the control center. Upon my arrival, I was 23 informed that an inmate had attempted suicide 24 and proceeded to cell 205-124LAD. I observed 25 inmate Epstein, Jeffrey, number 76318-054, EFTA00119050 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 lying in the fetal position on the floor of his 2 cell, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. 3 He was breathing heavily, and was snoring. 4 I called out to inmate Epstein and observed him 5 flicker his eyes, and continued snoring. His 6 neck was red with no abrasions. I observed no 7 further injuries to his person. An attempt was 8 made to get the inmates, to get the inmate to 9 stand on his own, with negative results. The 10 inmate was placed in hand restraints, and staff 11 was directed to retrieve the stretcher. 12 As inmate Epstein was being placed on the 13 stretcher by responding staff, he would open 14 his eyes and observe staff. When staff made 15 eye contact with him, he would hurriedly shut 16 his eyes. The inmate was taken to HA-Unit." 17 Was it that? The health care? 18 MR. : Health. Health Services. 19 MR. : "Dressed in a suicide 20 smock, and placed on suicide watch. While 21 awaiting the arrival of an inmate companion, 22 inmate Epstein sat on the of the bed and 23 began moving forward, as if was attempting to 24 fall over, head first. When I looked away, he 25 straightened up. As I turned to look at him EFTA00119051 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 again, he attempted the same act. I laid him 2 down on the bed, and directed him to cease his 3 action or he would be placed in restraints for 4 his safety. 5 At that moment, he stated, `Okay. I won't 6 do it again.' And gave the thumbs up. Because 7 of his unpredictable behavior, the decision was 8 made to have the staff member observe inmate 9 Epstein. I had left HA-Unit in order to make 10 staff notifications. Moments later, I spoke 11 with Officer who stated that Inmate 12 Epstein was alert and had indicated that his 13 cellmate, Tartaglione, Nicholas, number 78514- 14 054, had attempted to kill him, and had been 15 harassing him. 16 He stated that the inmate had indicated 17 that he had informed his attorney of this 18 matter. I photographed and spoke with inmate 19 Tartaglione, Nicholas, who stated that he was 20 asleep with his headphones on when he felt 21 something hit his legs, and said, . What 22 are you doing?' He didn't answer. So, he got 23 up, turned on the light," or - so, yeah - "He 24 got up, turned on the light, and saw him with a 25 string around his neck. EFTA00119052 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 He stated that he then called the guards, and they ran down. Upon further questioning, inmate Tartaglione stated that he sleeps on the bottom bunk, but gave it to inmate Epstein because he's old. He stated that he sleeps on the floor, on a mattress. He stated that, when he got up, he couldn't remember if he sat up or stood up to check on Epstein. He stated that Epstein was sitting on the floor, leaning to the side, with his eyes opened, but wasn't responding. He stated that the last time he saw him, he was snoring really loud. Inmate Epstein stated that he comes in from a legal visit at approximately 8:00 p.m., and staff handed him a copy of the Ddaily Nnews. Nick was on the floor reading the Ddaily Nfiews. He stated that he had given it to him. He stated that Tartaglione mentioned that he had been in court all day, in Westchester (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:00), and was carrying on. At that point, inmate Tartaglione paused, as if he was making the story up, as he went along, and stated that Tartaglione stated, `These fucking N-I-G-G-E-R-S. This place is EFTA00119053 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 inhumane. I wish I could report it. Officer, that N-I-G-G-E-R, hobbit motherfucker.' He then turned to a page in the Ddaily Nnews that had his picture on it, and stated that Epstein was worth 77 million dollars. Epstein then stated that he took his picture, balled it up, and threw it in the garbage. I asked inmate Epstein what happened prior to staff's arrival. He stated that at approximately 1:00 a.m., he had gotten up to get a drink of water, as he gets up every 30 minutes. He remembered walking back to his bunk, and waking up with staff there, in his cell. I asked if he had waken up and seen staff, why didn't he respond when we were calling out to him. He stated that he only remembered hearing himself making a noise like snoring. When asked about the allegations against his cellmate, he stated that he was told if he hurt him, staff wouldn't care. Duty medical -" how do you pronounce that name? MR. MR. • • "Was EFTA00119054 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 notified and briefed. It was determined that 2 no further medical attention was needed. A 3 medical assessment was 4 time of this incident, 5 6 7 8 MR. -: 9 MR. 10 11 12 13 left knee." 14 15 16 you as inaccurate? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So, when 19 20 21 22 23 MR. 24 that she told, 25 not conducted at the due to the fact there was no medical staff available after 10:00 p.m. Upon their arrival of medical staff, inmate Epstein was examined and treated by "For a circular line of arrythmia, at the base of his neck. One section on the front, with marks of friction, and a small arrythmia on his So, sorry that that was so lengthy. But so, again, the question would be, is this, is this, does anything in here strike says that in the attached memo, "The information I received is not what I was told happened." Do you know what she is referring to? : I think she - if I recall that said that it was an attempted suicide, but then she got any EFTA00119055 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 additional information that it might have been 2 Epstein and Tartaglione having an issue in his 3 cell. 4 MR. : And what, and my 5 understanding is that SIS came up with 6 inconclusive findings. 7 MR. : In the investigation. 8 MR. : What is your belief that 9 happened? 10 MR. : I can't speculate. 11 MR. : You don't -. 12 MR. : I don't want -. I mean, I 13 don't know, you know, with the injuries on the 14 neck, I don't know if it was a suicide, and I 15 don't know, based on Epstein's statement, that 16 was something done to him. So, couldn't prove 17 what it was. 18 MR. : Okay. And is it, is 19 there any reason for us to know or believe that 20 it was one or the other, though? I know you 21 are trying not to speculate, but -. 22 MR. : I mean, I would, you know, 23 you have there be the medical department, who 24 did an assessment, and, you know, typically, 25 you could say you come to a conclusion from EFTA00119056 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 injuries, from physical injuries, but we 2 weren't even able to do that. 3 MR. : So, according to the 4 medical assessment, your understanding is that 5 they weren't able to tell if someone -? 6 MR. : That, from what I - if I can 7 - and I don't know - I read it - but I don't 8 know -. I remember on the report, they were 9 unable to conclude what would, you know, what, 10 what -. Did he attempt suicide, or was he 11 assaulted? 12 MR. : And were you satisfied 13 with that response, or did you think that they 14 missed something? 15 MR. : I think they looked into it. 16 And I think it was, you know, you couldn't look 17 into it any further. I mean, either -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- it was a suicide, or i- 20 was assault. So, we separated them. 21 MR. : Okay. But there is 22 So, it didn't say, like, keep digging, or you 23 weren't, you know -? 24 MR. : I mean, they interviewed 25 them. They asked the questions. You had the EFTA00119057 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 medical assessment. So, I don't know what 2 other -- 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : -- conclusions could have 5 been drawn from it. 6 MR. : And what happened with 7 inmate Epstein after July 23rd? Or on July 8 23rd. 9 MR. : I don't specifically 10 remember what happened. I know we separated 11 the both of them. He wasn't - and then, I know 12 he was on suicide watch. They placed him on a 13 watch. And then had psychology talk to him. 14 MR. : Okay. So, just so, that 15 is just so you know, if you don't mind just 16 initialing and dating that one, that we just 17 read. Okay. So, this next one is from 18 to a 19 (Phonetic Sp. *00:30:05). 20 MR. : She's a psychologist. 21 MR. : Okay. And then, with 22 UCC. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : It says, "SW, 25 chronological log, re: Epstein." It says, EFTA00119058 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 "C.O. Thomas was assigned to staff watch. 2 However, the wrong book was used. I am 3 companion log, —in lieu of staff suicide watch 4 log." 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Was that something 7 normal? Was that an easy mistake? 8 MR. : yeah, I could see it 9 happening because we have a log that the 10 inmate, you have an inmate companions that 11 watch inmates. So, they use the log. And 12 then, you have, if staff are going to sit on 13 someone, then they use a certain log. But the 14 fact that, you know, the documentation took 15 place, it was just, you know, it was just an 16 error. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : But they did document, so. 19 MR. : Now, C.O. Thomas. Is 20 this Michael Thomas that you, are you aware? 21 MR. : I had two Thomas's. I don't 22 know which one it was. 23 MR. : Okay. So, if I tell you 24 it was -- 25 MR. : No, no, no. It had to be EFTA00119059 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 Officer Thomas, because if it was C.O. Thomas, 2 he would have been - his title is material 3 handler. 4 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 5 believe it was actually Michael Thomas? 6 MR. : No. I think it was the 7 officer. 8 MR. : It was Mr. Michael 9 Thomas. Just from our records and from 10 speaking -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- with Mr. Thomas. 13 MR. : Can I see the log 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. : -- how he opened the log? 16 MR. : That is correct, right, 17 18 MR. : Where does it show that he 19 started his shift? Because usually, when you 20 come on shift, you write -- 21 MR. : This is what -- 22 MR. : -- the name. 23 MR. : -- was attached to that 24 email. 25 MR. : Yeah. Typically, when you EFTA00119060 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 start your shift, your start off, you know, 2 you're putting your name, if you are relieved, 3 or you assume suicide watch. 4 MR. : So, here is the next 5 email, so you might be able to show me an 6 example of what you are referring to. It's 7 this email, is it the same thing you were CC'd, 8 and this is, like, maybe this is the real log 9 that maybe he should have been using. But 10 here, it shows all the other logs. 11 MR. : So, this is -. 12 MR. : Hmm. 13 MR. : See, this is what I mean by 14 when someone comes on duty, but this is what 15 they leave -- 16 MR. : This is the -. 17 MR. : -- they mix the book up. 18 But they must have wrote it in the suicide log. 19 But typically, when you come on, let's say the 20 shift starts at 8:00, you will state your full 21 name, as assuming the duties. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And you typically say who 24 you relieved on there. 25 MR. : All right. So, it looks EFTA00119061 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 44 1 like they maybe didn't fill it out correctly. 2 MR. : They didn't fill it out 3 correctly. 4 MR. : And so, our investigation 5 shows that it was Michael Thomas -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- that was on him on the 8 23rd. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : And that wasn't an "I 11 gotcha," whatsoever. My question was actually, 12 Michael Thomas is the one that actually found 13 him on August 10th. Correct? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : And is that suspicious at 16 all to you, that he was the one that was 17 watching him on suicide watch, and then that he 18 is the one that found him on the 10th? 19 MR. : No. I mean, typically, we 20 had so much overtime in the institution, that - 21 and we go by when you sign up for it. So, 22 there is a program that you sign up for, and 23 don't know how the lieutenant did. They might 24 have called them, then he signed up for it. 25 So, I don't know. I can't say if it was EFTA00119062 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 5 6 suspicious or not. MR. : Sure. And then, all these documents that we're reviewing right here, on these two emails, what are they? MR. : Which one? MR. : Both of them. 7 MR. : The suicide watch log? 8 MR. : Yeah. So, is this 9 suicide watch log, as well as this? 10 MR. : Yeah. The suicide 11 observation log, and this is, appears to be the 12 cover of a logbook, for suicide watch. 13 MR. : Perfect. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : All right. Do you mind 16 just initial and dating this? And again, these 17 aren't trick questions -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -: -- I just don't want to, 20 like, put answers in your -. If I think it is 21 something, but maybe it's not, you might be 22 able to tell me what it actually is. 23 MR. : This one, too? 24 MR. Yes, please. Thank you, 25 sir. And this is, this says psych ops. So, EFTA00119063 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 46 1 this is another one of those emails. This one 2 is from to you. Also dated August 10th, 3 2019. It says, "Psych ops is discontinued on 4 7/30/2018." I think she means 2019. Correct? 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : At 8:15 a.m. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : So, is this also part of 9 the suicide watch log? 10 MR. : That is a log you would also 11 use. 12 MR. : Okay. Great. And does 13 it say in there, I guess right here, "8:15 14 a.m., psych observation is being 15 discontinued."? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. Awesome. Do you 18 mind just initial and dating this? And 19 as I am giving these to you, can you try to 20 keep these in order with regard to -- 21 MR. : I've just been stacking them. 22 MR. : -- making a note. Don't 23 stack them on tip, though, keep them, like, 24 bundled together, so we know this is psych. 25 This is, like, the psych observation logbook. EFTA00119064 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, if you can keep them, 3 and then write a note on them. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So that when we are 6 After this thing is transcribed, we can keep 7 things in order. This one is regarding the 8 first attempt, and the one we read from 9 And can you tell me, sir, what 10 this is? This is July 30th. So, it is that 11 same date that he came off of -. What am I 12 looking at here? 13 MR. : So, this is -. Date, name, 14 signature. Inmate name. Reg number. This is 15 -. Is this a entrance log to the Special 16 Housing Unit? 17 MR. : I'm not sure. That's 18 what I'm saying. 19 MR. : I'm just, I don't know. It 20 might be an entrance log. This is 7/30. 21 MR. : These are all dates, but 22 at least up until 7/30, that he was in the 23 Special Housing Unit, but this says J. Epstein. 24 So, I don't know if he would sign himself in. 25 MR. : No, no. EFTA00119065 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : I don't know. It might be 3 an entrance -- 4 MR. : Or is it to the attorney 5 visits or something? 6 MR. : -- it might be attorney 7 visits. Let me see. 7/30. G tall (Phonetic 8 Sp. *00:36:57). Signature. Inmate name. 9 Name. This might be an attorney log. Name. 10 Fall. Signature. Yeah. This might. This is 11 probably an attorney -- 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. the log into the attorney 14 room. I think that's probably it. 15 MR. : Here is Epstein again. 16 It shows 7/30, 7/30, 7/30. 17 MR. : The different attorneys. 18 He, you know, he could have had one attorney 19 that comes in early in the morning -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. and then, any time a new 22 one comes in, they have to sign in, saying who 23 you came to see. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : So, he had multiple -- EFTA00119066 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : So, this is -- 2 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 3 *00:37:46). 4 MR. : -- an attorney log. 5 MR. : This is an attorney log. He 6 usually had multiple attorneys. 7 MR. : So, it wasn't Epstein 8 signing his name. They are 9 MR. : No, no. 10 MR. : -- saying they were 11 visiting this person. 12 MR. : Whoever comes and visits has 13 to put who -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- they are visiting. 16 MR. : So, the visitor logs were 17 for attorneys. 18 MR. : Attorneys. Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. You mind just 20 initial and dating that? And again, if 21 you want to write on here, just -- 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- attorney logbook 24 visit. So, again, so that we can keep track of 25 what it is these things are. Now, is this the EFTA00119067 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 same thing we just looked at? This looks like, 2 again, it says, "Inmate companion assumed 3 duties from staff on 7/23/19, at 7:00 until 4 7/24/19, at 8:45 a.m. Epstein was transferred 5 to psych observation on 7/24/2019, at 8:45 a.m. 6 until 7/30/2019 at 8:15 a.m. Inmate companion 7 was utilized." 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : So, this one says July 10 23rd, 24th. And this one, again, suicide watch 11 chronological log. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : Inmate companion logs. 14 Does this tell you anything more about Michael 15 Thomas, or anything different? What is this? 16 This one is the PP-37. What does that tell us? 17 That's just he's on it? 18 MR. : Yeah. It just says, you 19 know, (Indiscernible *00:39:01), let me see. 20 You got category. I don't know what the MDS 21 is, but typically, it's an assignment. Like, 22 could put in and do a PP-37 and say where he 23 was housed at. So, I could put quarters. So, 24 this must be a medical term. Concerning his 25 medical status. EFTA00119068 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 2 this is the first page, it looks like, of the 3 logbook. Does this tell you 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- anything different 6 than what we looked at before, or is this the 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 same thing? MR. : It's the same. It's an inmate suicide watch -- MR. : Okay. MR. log. MR. : So, it doesn't say Michael Thomas on it, it just -- MR. : No. It says inmate companion was watching him. MR. : Okay. You said inmate Oh, so, this is an inmate companion instead of MR. MR. MR. MR. : Yeah, yeah. : -- the actual. Okay. : You have -- : I got you. So, whatever, does it tell us which, who the inmate was, that was his companion? MR. : Inmate companion Estebaen EFTA00119069 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 (Phonetic Sp. *00:39:51), and it has his number 2 right there. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. 4 MR. : Assumed responsibility for 5 inmate Epstein on -. 6 MR. : Perfect. 7 MR. : So, that's why I was telling 8 you, the staff one should read just like that, 9 too. 10 MR. : All right. So, this one 11 is 7/23 is the actual inmate that was 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : -- Epstein's companion on 14 7/23 until 7/24. Do you mind just initial and 15 dating that? 16 MR. : And this is right after the 17 incident. The first incident, right? 18 MR. : This is - so, July 23rd 19 or the 24th - yes, this is when he was on 20 suicide watch, not on observation. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : And this is that, it 23 looks like this one is, again, it's from you to 24 Mr. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119070 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MR. : It says psych ops/suicide 2 watch. And it looks like it's the difference 3 between the two. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : In laymen's terms, what 6 is the difference between suicide watch and 7 psychological observation at the MCC, during 8 this time period when Epstein was on it? 9 MR. : So, suicide watch is when we 10 have determined, or there is a possibility, 11 through what an individual is saying, that they 12 might cause self-harm to themselves. Psych ops 13 is, that person might not admit it, and we 14 might not have anything to say to put them on 15 suicide watch, so we just put them on what we 16 call psychological observation. 17 MR. : And now, it was my 18 understanding -- 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:41:11). 20 MR. : -- it's basically the 21 same thing, aside from what the inmate is 22 allowed to have, such as clothes. 23 MR. : That, too. 24 MR. : Okay. So, is it same 25 unit, same room, same -- EFTA00119071 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Same. 2 MR. : -- same procedures? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. The one thing that 5 I've learned more recently is, though, during 6 psychological observation, or I guess I should 7 ask for them. During suicide watch, as well as 8 psychological observation, is the inmate 9 allowed to have attorney visits? 10 MR. : If they are on that watch, 11 no. 12 MR. : What about during 13 psychological observation? 14 MR. : I think it would be the same 15 thing, that they are not allowed to have. And 16 I'm not sure. Don't quote me to it. Because 17 typically, when they are on that, we don't have 18 it. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you recall if 20 either yourself or anyone at the institution 21 was contacted by anyone, such as a judge or 22 Epstein's attorneys, asking that he be removed 23 from either psychological observation or 24 suicide watch, so that he, for any reason? 25 MR. : They will always call. I EFTA00119072 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 mean, they would. There was always a number 2 subject, whether it was to place him in general 3 population. So, I don't, you know, recall 4 MR. : Do you remember ever 5 being called by a judge? 6 MR. : No, I don't. I don't 7 recall. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Speaking with a judge. 10 MR. : All right. Because that 11 was the rumor we heard, was that a judge 12 contacted you and said they wanted him removed 13 from one or the other. 14 MR. : No. Judges wouldn't 15 typically call for that. 16 MR. : But the attorneys 17 frequently would? 18 MR. : Yeah, frequently, they 19 would, you know, call our legal department, 20 saying, you know, why can't he go to general 21 population. Why is he, you know, being housed 22 here? And just not him, if there was any type 23 of equipment that was requested. Those are the 24 type of requests you get from the attorney. 25 MR. : Okay. And do you know if EFTA00119073 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 those attorneys were made, though, when he was 2 on either suicide watch or psychological 3 observations? 4 MR. : I don't recall that. 5 MR. : You don't recall. 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Sure. That's fine. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Do you know - I know you 10 said that, and you didn't think that inmates 11 typically could - but do you know if Mr. 12 Epstein visited with his attorneys during that 13 time, between the 23rd and the 30th of -- 14 MR. : I don't know 15 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 16 *00:43:28)? 17 MR. : -- if he was on that status, 18 then he would not have been -- 19 MR. : You don't believe so? 20 MR. : I don't believe so. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : No. I don't believe so. 23 MR. : No problem. All right. 24 So, this, this one again. Oh, do you mind 25 initial and dating that? EFTA00119074 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Okay, , you can 3 file that accordingly. This one just goes back 4 to that first initial timeline, that looked 5 like it may have been a little messed up. The 6 initial email from you, it looks like it's a 7 psych ops. "The logbook shows he was released 8 on July 30th. He had an attorney visit, 9 starting at 8:20 a.m. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : He was there all day. I 12 will send the attorney log next." And then, 13 Mr. response was, "The timeline we 14 sent DOJ says 7/29. Where did we get that 15 date?" So, are we confident that he stayed 16 until the 30th? 17 MR. : He stayed until the 30th. 18 MR. : Okay. So, was this just 19 an incorrect -- 20 MR. : I think that was a typo. 21 MR. : -- okay. Oh, sorry. Do 22 you mind initial and dating? 23 MR. : Well, this answers your 24 previous question. 25 MR. : What's that? EFTA00119075 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : About being on psych ops and 2 seeing an attorney. He didn't go until after 3 he got off. 4 MR. : Well, it says that he had 5 an attorney visit -- 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- starting at 8:20 a.m., 8 but it doesn't say if he had any prior to that 9 time. 10 MR. : Right. Oh, because he was 11 released on July 30th. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, just saying, like, 15 yeah, he was released and 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- he was visiting with 18 his attorneys. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And that's something 21 we've had a little bit of a conflicting 22 information. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : We've heard that he 25 actually did have attorney visits during that EFTA00119076 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 59 1 time. And we've heard that he didn't. So, 2 that's why I was wondering if you would be able 3 to clear that up at all, but you're not 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- to your recollection 6 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : -- he wouldn't have? 9 MR. : Yeah. Typically, if you are 10 on that, you're not going to have an attorney 11 visit. 12 MR. : And just talking to 13 psychology, they would, they said that, no, we 14 always try to afford an inmate - they have a 15 right to attorney visits - so, we try to afford 16 that right. But do you think that maybe they 17 were mistaken? 18 MR. : I'm just going from my 19 experience, like any other of the inmates that 20 we've had on suicide watch have not gone to an 21 attorney visit. 22 MR. : Okay. Now, this, 23 speaking of psychology, that's the next point. 24 Let me just make sure that all the information 25 is on that incident. So, as far as EFTA00119077 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Tartaglione, or Tartaglione, however it is -. 2 How do you think it's -? 3 MR. : Tartaglione. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Okay. So, did you have 7 any involvement with selecting Tartaglione as 8 Epstein's cellmate? 9 MR. : We did. 10 MR. : Okay. And how was that 11 selection made? 12 MR. : So, we weren't able to get a 13 whole lot of people, you know, think that how 14 we could house him to be safe. Tartaglione was 15 a white male. Another high-profile case. So, 16 and he is not, you know, there is this 17 misconception that he was a big hulking 18 bodyguard, but he lost over 100 something 19 pounds. So, he was smaller in stature and 20 frame. So, we said that would have been an 21 appropriate cellmate for him. 22 MR. : And who made the 23 decision? 24 MR. : To put them together? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119078 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I did. 2 MR. : Okay. Was it in 3 coordination with both the captain, as well as 4 Mr. 5 MR. : Everyone - yeah - would 6 discuss it, like, you know, I, obviously, 1 7 sent it up the chain, to say, look who we're 8 going to make him his cellmate, and what was 9 the reasoning. 10 MR. : So -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- in talking with the 13 captain, his recollection was that he brought 14 the three names, you discussed it with Mr. 15 , he was present for that discussion, and 16 Mr. is the only one who said, I want 17 Tartaglione, put him with Tartaglione. Do you 18 recall it to be that way, or do you recall it 19 to be -? 20 MR. : Which -? Well, are we 21 talking about Tartaglione? 22 MR. : Oh, did that happen with 23 Reyes? 24 MR. : Well, Reyes and - what do 25 you call it? - Reyes and, there were two names. EFTA00119079 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 62 1 So, I talked to my boss about it. They wanted 2 to see the names. So, I don't know who they 3 talked to at Main Justice. So, I sent the 4 email, and stuff, with all the break down of 5 the two inmates to the director's office. 6 (Phonetic Sp. *00:47:45). And 7 because he was the chief of staff at the time. 8 And I sent it up, you know, I put my input in, 9 about as far as if we had to choose between who 10 was going to get it, was the - what was it? - 11 the Spanish, the older gentleman who left, like 12 13 MR. : Efrain Reyes? 14 MR. : -- Reyes, that Reyes would 15 be the most appropriate because we couldn't 16 find anybody. 17 MR. : Okay. So -- 18 MR. : And then, they went up, and 19 then, I got word back that, to go with Reyes. 20 MR. : Okay. So, Reyes was when 21 the -. So, your superiors actually made the 22 selection, but for -- 23 MR. : Tartaglione. 24 MR. : Tartaglione, that was 25 you? EFTA00119080 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. : I mean, it was in 2 conjunction. I sent it up and told, you know, 3 the powers that be that this is who we're going 4 to be, and it came back and said, you know, 5 we're good for that. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you know what 7 Tartaglione was in for? 8 MR. : He had - I know it was a big 9 drug case involving drug dealers, and stuff 10 like that. So, and - so, yeah, (Indiscernible 11 *00:48:45) -- 12 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 13 MR. : -- huh? 14 MR. HAYES: Some kind of narcotics. 15 MR. : Some kind of narcotics. So, 16 he - and then, I don't - and I recall there was 17 murder involved, too. 18 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 19 MR. : But he was a high-profile 20 case. So, I could -. I had gentlemen in there 21 that were trying to get in there, but you know, 22 they would have probably harmed him. I had 23 another pedophile in there, and everybody in 24 the unit, they know who's in the unit, I'm not 25 taking him as a cellmate. You know? So, we EFTA00119081 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 can't just arbitrarily force another inmate 2 into the cell upon them. So, Tartaglione was, 3 you know, the best -- 4 MR. HAYES: The other inmates 5 MR. : -- inmates -. 6 MR. HAYES: -- would not accept Epstein, 7 nor would not accept a pedophile. 8 MR. : They weren't going to -. 9 They just weren't going to stab Epstein 10 *00:49:29). I don't know the reasons. But I 11 mean, I can't make the decisions and say, all 12 right, I'm going to force you to take this, and 13 then something happens to him, and then -. 14 MR. : So, someone actually 15 spoke with Tartaglione and he said he was 16 willing to do it? 17 MR. : And I'm not sure on there - 18 who spoke to him, but I don't know. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : It might have been. But I 21 know we said we were going to put him in, and 22 this is, this is what -. And he didn't have 23 any issues. 24 MR. : Okay. And if someone did 25 speak with him, who would that have been? EFTA00119082 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Would that have been captain? 2 MR. : It might have been the 3 captain. Shoot, (Indiscernible *00:50:02). 4 But it probably would have been the captain, 5 but - 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- you know, typically, you 8 know, we're going to make a move, and we're 9 putting somebody in there, we're not going to, 10 you know, sit down and consult with an inmate, 11 if that's okay with you. I mean 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : -- we just have a feel of 14 the unit -- 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : -- that, who is appropriate 17 to go in there, okay, I'm not going to put a 18 drug dealer in there with him. So, you know, 19 typically, another high-profile inmate would be 20 appropriate. 21 MR. : Okay. Now, do you have 22 any reason to believe that Tartaglione did, in 23 fact, try to harm Epstein on July 23rd? 24 MR. : Again—, I can't speculate on 25 that. EFTA00119083 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Sure. Just because 2 MR. : I mean -. 3 MR. : -- it would be pure 4 speculation, if you did? 5 MR. : Yeah. It would be. I would 6 be speculating on that. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : I can't -. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And you just prefer not 12 to do that? 13 MR. : Yeah. I don't want to 14 speculate. 15 MR. : Okay. Now, so, our 16 assessment from other people has been that -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Tartaglione was trying 19 to beat his case 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- and that he had every 22 reason in the world not to harm Epstein. And 23 that Tartaglione was actually the person who 24 notified the guards that Epstein was in need of 25 help. Is that what you -? Is that a correct EFTA00119084 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 assessment? 2 MR. HAYES: Tartaglione wasn't in the cell 3 at the time. 4 MR. : So -- 5 MR. : On July 23rd, he was. 6 MR. : -- he was. So, he -- 7 MR. HAYES: He was. Oh, I 8 MR. : -- yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: -- yeah, right. 10 MR. : Yeah. So, here's how I'm 11 going to put this. As far as Tartaglione, we 12 and his behavior in the institution, he wasn't 13 a model prisoner. I mean, we caught him, you 14 know, with a cellphone. You know, making 15 calls, you know, and circumventing his case, 16 and whatever. But so, I don't, I can't 17 speculate on, you know, whether he would do 18 something, or he wouldn't do something. So, 19 that was, you know, my dealings with 20 Tartaglione, when I was aware of him. Plus, 21 you know, his case. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : And the request from his 24 attorneys. 25 MR. : Okay. So, following EFTA00119085 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Epstein's time on suicide watch and 2 psychological observation, was he placed back 3 in the SHU? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. So, and I 6 apologize to read all these, but this is just 7 again - we're not going to through them one by 8 one, but just to show what it is that we have 9 here. So, this one says it's from an 10 to Did I get this from you? 11 I think this is something that forwarded on. 12 MR. HAYES: She say even gave your own 13 drinking -- 14 MR. : This one says, "Can you 15 send me notes on Epstein? On his suicide 16 attempt. Thanks." That was from III 17 it looks like, sent it up. So, 18 said, "I need this ASAP." And it 19 says, "Here are his notes." 20 MR. : So, he said (Phonetic 21 Sp. *00:52:59). I guess the regional is 22 requesting it. 23 MR. : Okay. So, the region 24 wanted this? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119086 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 MR. : So, this, is this what 2 this is? Is this the psychology file of 3 Epstein? 4 MR. : Those are clinical notes. 5 MR. : So, these are all 6 clinical notes -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- here? 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Would this have been, 11 like, okay, it starts with, it looks like July 12 31st, and then goes back, July 30th. So, it 13 looks like these are clinical notes from the 14 day he got there 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- up until July 31st. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : I wonder why. Why would 19 they only send until July 31st? Do you know? 20 MR. : You said -- 21 MR. : Not August. 22 MR. : -- they sent from where? 23 MR. : Well, it -- 24 MR. : From -? 25 MR. : -- started from the day EFTA00119087 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 that he arrived, it looks like, on, it's July 2 8th, 2019. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : To July 31st, 2019. 5 MR. : It's any encounter you have 6 with him. Any medical -- 7 MR. : So, did they not -- 8 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 9 *00:53:53). 10 MR. : -- have any encounters 11 after July 31st, 2019? 12 MR. HAYES: Do you know? 13 MR. : No. I am not aware of that 14 because it would only - they would only 15 annotate if they had encounters with him. 16 MR. : Okay. So, you are 17 unaware of, after July 31st, if anyone had any 18 kind of, any psychology had any interactions 19 with him? 20 MR. : No. If it's not in the BEMR 21 notes, and that, I guess they didn't have any. 22 MR. : So, you would assume that 23 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- there wouldn't be? EFTA00119088 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 Okay. Do you mind initialing? And do you know 2 why that would be? 3 MR. : Hold on. If an inmate is 4 cleared off of - so, and you have to talk them 5 about it - but most inmates didn't, once you 6 are cleared off of suicide watch, they have 7 other things that they do. You can come down 8 and they give you some (Indiscernible 9 *00:54:42) coping courses to take. So, they 10 have other types of therapy, but it doesn't 11 necessarily have to be entered in as a medical 12 encounter. 13 MR. : Okay. So, this is, so, 14 psychology could have been still meeting with 15 them, just not noted as a medical encounter? 16 MR. : Yeah. You - I mean - you 17 see them, and you can just, like, if you have 18 patients, you will go, how is everything going? 19 You doing all right? Yeah. I'm fine. I'm 20 okay. So, it doesn't have to be noted as a 21 medical encounter. 22 MR. : Okay. So, your 23 involvement with this, being that he came off 24 of psychological observation on July 30th, 25 should psychology had interacted with him more EFTA00119089 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 in that type of setting, where they would have 2 been writing clinical notes? Or do you 3 MR. : No. I think they -- 4 MR. : -- or -? 5 MR. : -- did everything. Because 6 they cleared him at the time. I mean, based on 7 the SIS investigation, it was inconclusive 8 whether he committed, you know, tried to -- 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : -- attempted to commit 11 suicide, and I didn't read all the reports, but 12 if he's sitting in the report, saying, no, I 13 wasn't trying to kill myself, and I didn't do 14 it, that's their assessment of it. 15 MR. : Right. No. I guess what 16 I'm saying is that, I know you're not a 17 psychologist, but if the 30th was the day that 18 they cleared him to go back to the SHU -- 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- do you think that they 21 should have continued at least checking with 22 him, or no? 23 MR. : Well, they probably did. 24 mean, when -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119090 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 73 1 MR. : -- you make your SHU rounds. 2 You know, seeing him in other parts of the 3 institution. So, and you would have to ask 4 them. But there were probably encounters with 5 him. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But that didn't require -- 8 MR. HAYES: A report. 9 MR. : -- a report, and a medical 10 annotation in there. 11 MR. : Okay. So, this next 12 email, it talks about, it says, "Warden 13 ," and this is from , and 14 again -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- is he the coordinator? 17 Or, who is he? 18 MR. : Oh. 19 MR. : Oh, here it is. National 20 suicide prevention coordinator for the BOP. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : It says, "Thank you for 23 supporting our scheduling of the psychological 24 reconstructive for inmate Epstein. I will be 25 joined by , (Phonetic Sp. EFTA00119091 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 *00:56:44) Correction Service Administration of 2 the Northeast Region. So, do you know if that 3 was ever completed? The actual suicide 4 reconstruction. 5 MR. : They might have, but nobody 6 talked to me. 7 MR. : Okay. They didn't talk 8 to you? 9 MR. : Nah. 10 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. And 11 then, behind it, it looks like, just, it looks 12 like a template is attached here. 13 "(Indiscernible *00:57:00 national suicide 14 prevention program, suicide reconstruction 15 materials." 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Would have you been the 18 one that would have gathered these things for 19 him? 20 MR. : No. You probably -. 21 Typically, when this happens, this comes from, 22 when I used to do them, I would make contact 23 with someone in the institution, to get it. 24 So, you might -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119092 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- have the executive 2 assistant -- 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. get the information. 5 MR. : So, it says, "I am 6 attaching a list of materials we use to 7 complete the reconstruction. We routinely take 8 these documents with us, so please ensure that 9 a copy of any documents you also need." 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : It says, "Your assistance 12 in gathering these documents, appreciate it, 13 will be helpful." So, you would just, you 14 would provide that to, like, III or 15 someone? 16 MR. : Yeah. We tell the exec, 17 hey, I need you to gather this information, and 18 it might not be . It could be the 19 chief psychologist. Whoever is assigned to do 20 it. 21 MR. : Okay. But as far as you 22 know, was that completed? Did he show up and 23 do that? 24 MR. : I wasn't at the institution. 25 MR. : Oh, okay. EFTA00119093 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I -- 2 MR. : So, you 3 MR. : I was removed from the 4 institution. 5 MR. : -- when were you removed 6 from the institution? 7 MR. : Monday. 8 MR. : Monday, August 12th? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Okay. That's what I was 11 kind of asking you before. Maybe I wasn't 12 clear with my question. I was wondering if 13 something happened to you after this, that you 14 were removed and no longer 15 MR. : No. They just told me, go 16 report to the region. 17 MR. : -- all right. So, as of 18 Monday, August 12th, 2019, you were no longer 19 at the MCC? 20 MR. : I was no longer at the MCC. 21 MR. : And did you ever go back 22 after that? 23 MR. : No, I didn't. 24 MR. : Okay. So, that was 25 Okay. EFTA00119094 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 MR. : Well, I did today, to go 2 park. 3 MR. : Okay. But after this 4 instance, and you were not really involved 5 after that, then? 6 MR. : That was it. I didn't have 7 any -. 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. You check in today. 9 Did you just say? 10 MR. : No, I had to park a vehicle, 11 because I had to -. I had the government 12 vehicle, so parking them, I had the prop, so I 13 parked there, and took the train out, 14 (Indiscernible *00:58:46). 15 MR. : I think when we started, and 16 asked when you started at the regional 17 office, I think you mentioned 2020. 18 MR. : So, the problem is, and he 19 was talking about job title. My job title 20 still remained the same. 21 MR. : As warden? 22 MR. : As the warden in New York, 23 and it wasn't removed until 2020. 24 MR. : Okay. Well, now, but as of 25 August 12th, 2019, you started reporting to the EFTA00119095 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 region? 2 MR. : Yeah. DRD (Phonetic Sp. 3 *00:59:14) came. I did my - when was it? - I 4 had an interview at the U.S. Attorney's Office. 5 And then, my boss came and said, hey, I'm, you 6 know, we're signing you up to the regional 7 office. So, I went up, you know, no reason why 8 I was being removed. And I was just told to go 9 up there. So, that's what transpired. 10 MR. : Was there another warden in 11 place? 12 MR. : They brought another one in. 13 MR. : So, there was two people with 14 the title of warden, at that point? 15 MR. : Well, they had Mr. 16 (Phonetic Sp. *00:59:52), and 17 (Phonetic Sp. *01:00:01). She is. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : All right. So, if you 20 don't mind, just initialing and dating that. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : We'll get that out of 23 your way. So, this looks like this answers our 24 question. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119096 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 79 1 MR. : So, this is an email from 2 AW to yourself. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And it just says, "FYI, 5 from Dr. , regarding her last interaction 6 with Epstein, prior to her departure on 7 Thursday." 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Dr. was the 10 psychologist at MCC? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Correct? 13 MR. : She was the chief 14 psychologist. 15 MR. : Okay. Great. And it 16 says that, "I visited inmate Epstein in SHU on 17 Thursday." Thursday, meaning August 8th -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : -- 2019. "He was getting 20 ready to meet with his attorneys for the day, 21 so I had gone to visit him, right after the SHU 22 meeting. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : He had a cellmate at the 25 time, with whom I saw him interact with. He EFTA00119097 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 did not report any medical, or any mental 2 health concerns, and he denied any suicidal 3 thoughts or intention. He was asking the 4 writer to go to general population and was 5 making requests for various leads he had at the 6 time. He wanted social calls without them 7 being on a speaker phone. He wanted a book he 8 had left in the suicide watch area. 9 His mood was not depressed or anxious. 10 There were no signs of stress. He had planned 11 on meeting with his attorneys to work on his 12 legal situation." So, there is that. And 13 then, there is also, I don't know if this was 14 attached. , I don't know how this was 15 printed, but it also looks like all the 16 contacts. It says, "15 contacts in one month. 17 Starting on July 6, 2019, when Epstein arrived. 18 And after the -". It does say that there was a 19 contact that looks like, on the 31st. 20 MR. HAYES: What does he mean by 21 "contact"? 22 MR. : A psychology contact. 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. 24 MR. : And then, here's one, 25 8/1/2019, Dr. , SRA, was -- EFTA00119098 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- being conducted. What is SRA? Do you know? MR. : It's a seg group. Segregation review. MR. HAYES: Oh. MR. : So, it says -- MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- it says, "Court sent a form. Suicidal tendencies." MR. : No. That must be a psychological thing. I thought it said SRO. If it says SRA, that must be for SHU. MR. : Okay. And it says, "On August 1st, 2019, he denied any suicidalitve ally, friends (Indiscernible *01:02:07) supportive Jewish against his religion, still denied knowing what happened to him on 7/23/2019, when he was discovered with a string loosely tied around his neck. Said his incident report for self-mutilation was expunged. His cellmate is talkative, but will give it a chance. Noisy in SHU, he lives for fighting this case and going back to his normal life." And again, it say that the 8/8/ 2019 EFTA00119099 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was with Dr. , what I just -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- read. And on 4 8/10/2019. So, I guess they did (Indiscernible 5 *01:02:40), just not in this (Indiscernible 6 *01:02:40). 7 MR. : Yeah. You don't have to 8 always. 9 MR. : So, yeah, then maybe 10 those weren't required. 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : Yeah, do you mind, maybe 13 the bottom on this one? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : That wasn't attached to the 16 email. That was just a separate document. 17 MR. : Oh, that's a separate 18 document? Okay. There you go. Can you go to 19 psychology? All right. And this is the last 20 one to cover what psychology. This was an 21 email that was sent out by a 22 To, it says, "Suicide watch/psych observation 23 update." On 7/30/2019, at 12:30 p.m., and it 24 says, "Inmate Epstein is being taken off of 25 psych observation and needs to housed with an EFTA00119100 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 appropriate cellmate." 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. -: , and it just 4 says everyone who is attached to this sent, 5 this was sent to. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Is this something that 8 they normally do, after someone comes off of 9 psych observation or suicide watch? Do they 10 send this out to everyone? Or was it a special 11 case for this? 12 MR. : No. It's typical. 13 MR. : That's typical? 14 MR. : Typical. Because you have 15 to let the lieutenants, the shift lieutenants, 16 everyone know, you know, the person is coming 17 off. And where to house them. Some go back to 18 their units. In his case, he was going back to 19 the Special Housing Unit. 20 MR. : Okay. Great. Do you 21 mind just initial and dating that? And that 22 was - is it their job to determine if a 23 cellmate has to be housed with another 24 cellmate? I mean, an inmate has to be housed 25 with another inmate. EFTA00119101 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : Well, typically, I mean, 2 it's just - if there's nothing in policy that 3 sounds, you know, you know, in the correctional 4 setting, if somebody has been on, you know, 5 attempted suicide, or attempted to self- 6 mutilation, you usually put them in with 7 someone. 8 MR. : Okay. So, were you or 9 your staff involved with the decision to have 10 Epstein removed from suicide watch or 11 psychological observation? 12 MR. : Psychology makes the 13 determination that the individual is, you know, 14 no longer suicidale. This is for any inmate. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : Is no longer suicidal. And 17 there is no reason for him to be on suicide 18 watch. So, they either get released wherever 19 they came from, whether it was the general 20 population unit, or the Special Housing Unit. 21 MR. : So, on background on 22 that. So, one of the individuals in psychology 23 department 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- who would meet with EFTA00119102 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 Mr. Epstein, she said that she discussed this, 2 one of the steps down with Dr. , as well 3 as AW 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And I was informed that 6 that is kind of pretty routine, that that is 7 conducted in coordination with executive staff 8 members. Is that -- 9 MR. : Right. That is. 10 MR. : -- so, that's where 11 want to make sure that I'm understanding -- 12 MR. : We do. 13 MR. : -- what you are saying. 14 MR. : But we also do, we have what 15 we call a - and if it is an inmate that is in 16 our Special Housing Unit, we have a weekly 17 meeting, and if there are any issues, that's 18 brought up in the meeting. 19 MR. : Okay. So, is it solely, 20 though, up to psychology, if the inmate goes 21 from, say, suicide watch to psych observation, 22 and again, psych observation back to a housing 23 unit? Is that their call, or can, does the 24 executive staff, or anyone in the BOP, outside 25 of psychology, have an influence on that? EFTA00119103 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 MR. : Psychology are the subject 2 matter experts. They are the doctors. They 3 release someone off of suicide watch. I can't 4 - if an individual is on suicide watch - I 5 can't turn around and come in there, and say, 6 take him off. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : I'm not a trained 9 psychologist. Now, I can put somebody on 10 there. But then, you know, after hours, or if 11 it is an emergency, or he attempted suicide, 12 any staff member could put him on there. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : But as far as taking him 15 off, you have to have a medical reason, as far 16 as them coming off. 17 MR. : So, in that interview 18 with that individual, they said the decision 19 was discussed with AW and that 20 individual concurred with that decision. If 21 they didn't concur, though, would that matter 22 to them? 23 MR. : What do you mean, if the AW 24 didn't concur with it? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119104 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 MR. : I mean, I don't want to use 2 the word "courtesy" as a telling, but they're 3 keeping, they're keeping us informed, saying, 4 okay, we need to take him off of suicide watch. 5 Now, let's say I come in and interject and say, 6 no, I want him on there. What is my reasoning 7 for putting him on there? 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : What medical degree do I 10 have to justify keeping an individual on 11 suicide watch? Because now, it could go the 12 other way. I decide to turn around and do 13 something like that, I would be having a 14 conversation with you about something else. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : So. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : So, is it more to keep 20 you apprise 21 MR. : To keep us apprised -- 22 MR. : -- if anything else: 23 MR. you know, and saying, 24 hey, this is the way we're removing an 25 individual, and we move forward. I mean, EFTA00119105 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 obviously, we will have questions. You know, 2 if we had questions. 3 MR. HAYES: Guys, I want to go for a 4 second. All right? 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. HAYES: I got to go pee. 7 MR. : Do you want us to 88 8 continue or wait? 9 MR. HAYES: No, just stay by me. Oh, 10 don't continue. I'll be right back. 11 MR. : Absolutely. I'm going to 12 pause this recording then. It is currently 13 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 2021. 14 This is Special Agent , and I 15 am pausing the recording. 16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 17 off the record and back on the record). 18 MR. : All right. The recorder 19 is back on. It is 3:04 p.m. after a quick, 20 short break. Mr. , just reminding you 21 that you are under oath. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : All right. Sorry. 24 Address these. 25 MR. : Oh. EFTA00119106 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MR. : All right. So, the last 2 that we discussed was that psychology said that 3 Mr. Epstein needed to have a cellmate, and this 4 is where we talked a little bit about it. It 5 sounded like the decision to have Efrain Reyes 6 placed as Epstein's cellmate was actually made 7 at a higher level than yourself? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : Okay. And who made that 10 decision? 11 MR. : I don't know. Listen. 12 know, I sent it to my supervisor. Actually, 13 the two inmates that, that would kind of 14 figured out there might be a cellmate, we sent 15 those names to the director's office. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And it was was 18 the chief of staff. And because, see, my boss 19 told me that they had to run it up to the 20 department. So, I don't know who was spoken to 21 in the department. And it got back, and my 22 boss said that, too, you know, that's a good 23 choice. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119107 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And that's Mr. 2 again? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Okay. Great. But it was 5 based upon a list that you provided? 6 MR. : Yeah. There were some 7 names. Because I - fast forward - I got a 8 call, and we were gearing towards getting him 9 out to general population. 10 MR. : Oh, so, you wanted 11 Epstein to actually be in general pop? 12 MR. : I didn't want -. That's 13 what typically happens. You know 14 MR. : Sure. 15 MR. : -- you don't want an inmate 16 in segregation. Most of them, we've had a lot 17 of high-profile individuals that come in the 18 institution. You know, we do our intelligence 19 gathering, to see, okay, what would be an 20 appropriate unit for them to be in? And we 21 place them. And then, we monitor them. If, 22 you know, and that is how we move them into 23 general population. I get a call saying, hold 24 up on that. He needs to stay where he's at. 25 MR. : And who called you? EFTA00119108 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. HAYES: Did he qualify as a pedophile? 2 MR. : I don't -. I didn't -. 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. 4 MR. : Read. But that's -. We 5 didn't -- 6 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 7 MR. : -- you know, so that's not 8 feasible, why we were able to keep him in. So, 9 get a call, and they said hold up on that. He 10 needs to stay where he's at. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : So. 13 MR. : And I'm sorry. Who was 14 it that called you to say stay? 15 MR. : Mr. . And then, 16 that's when I had to send up the names. I 17 guess he had gotten some from the department. 18 I don't know who he talked to in the 19 department. 20 MR. : Oh, so, coming out of 21 psych observation, you were looking to send him 22 back to general pop. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Or not back to. Into. 25 MR. : When he first came in, the EFTA00119109 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 whole process was 2 MR. : Oh, I see. 3 MR. : -- to get him out to general 4 population. 5 MR. : I gotcha. So, back, you 6 are talking about July 6th through the 8th -- 7 MR. : Yeah, we're talking about -- 8 MR. : -- that timeframe. 9 MR. : -- the whole thing, and 10 then, even, you know, coming out of psych 11 observations when he got in, the plan was still 12 to get him into general population. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : I mean, we had the attorneys 15 contacting our legal, why can't he be in 16 general population? 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : So, and then, that is when I 19 got the call from my boss, saying - and I don't 20 know who he talked to in the department - but 21 it was, like, hold on. 22 MR. : And on that note, I guess 23 this would be a good time to talk about this. 24 Being that it was ultimately decided that he go 25 into Nine South, or the Special Housing Unit, EFTA00119110 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 93 1 was it discussed at all that he be placed on 2 Ten South, for the high, you know, the SAMs 3 inmates? 4 MR. : So, here's the problems with 5 Ten South. It's the terrorist unit, and 6 there's SAMS things in there. The amount of 7 attorneys he had coming in there, we couldn't 8 have those attorneys coming up to that unit 9 every day, and, you know, breaching the 10 security of it, and then, tying up the movement 11 in there, because when an attorney comes in 12 there. Now, those guys get attorneys, but it's 13 planned, and they are in there. Epstein's 14 attorneys were coming in early in the morning, 15 and weren't leaving until late at night. And 16 it was about four or five of them. So -- 17 MR. HAYES: And guess who's paying his 18 bill? 19 MR. : -- right. That's not an 20 appropriate unit, and that's not what that unit 21 is for. 22 MR. : Now, what about, like, 23 if, you know, an El Chapo (Phonetic Sp. 24 *01:11:55), or some of the other high levels 25 that weren't terrorists, how did they deal with EFTA00119111 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 that, or did they have attorneys visiting them 2 or no? 3 MR. : They did, but it wasn't to 4 that extent. Like, he, El Chapo would have his 5 attorneys come in, but they came in for a 6 couple hours, they left. As it got close to 7 trial, then they would - you would see them 8 more frequently. But Mr. Epstein, day one 9 thee* attorneys, they were in there from the 10 beginning to end. We even had complaints from 11 the local attorneys, that they were taking up 12 the rooms. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. So -- 14 MR. : So. 15 MR. : -- the primary reason why 16 he was placed in Nine South was because of the 17 attorney visits? 18 MR. : Well, not the attorney 19 visits, but that is the SAMS unit. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And he's not a SAMs inmate. 22 And then -. 23 MR. HAYES: What's a SANS unit? 24 MR. : Special Administrative 25 Measures. That means, you know, strict EFTA00119112 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 communication. And there's a lot that goes on 2 with that unit. So, he wasn't appropriate to 3 be up there. 4 MR. : Now, were some of those 5 other high-profile inmates, though, such as El 6 Chapo, and who were some of the people that 7 were in there? 8 MR. : Yeah. The terrorists up 9 there. 10 MR. : But the non-terrorists. 11 Meaning, the people that There was a few 12 MR. : Well, you had SchulteShety 13 (Phonetic Sp. *01:13:05), but he was in for 14 espionage, and had a SAMs on him. So, he -- 15 MR. : Now, did El Chapo have a 16 SAMs on him? 17 MR. : -- he had -. No. His 18 status was based on, and I know there was 19 (Indiscernible *01:13:18), his escape status 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : -- and stuff. So, he was a 22 high profile person that had escaped from 23 another prison before -- 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : -- so, that was an EFTA00119113 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 appropriate place to place him. 2 MR. : I see. 3 MR. : Schulte£h lty was in general 4 population, and a SRNs was placed on him by his 5 attorney 6 MR. HAYES: What was the other name again? 7 MR. SchulteSholty. And he 8 was placed up there. 9 MR. HAYES: Can I ask you 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. HAYES: -- a totally irrelevant 12 question? 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. HAYES: What was El Chapo like? 15 MR. : Just like any other inmate. 16 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 17 MR. : Yeah. Just like any other 18 inmate. 19 MR. HAYES: Polite? 20 MR. : Polite. You know, no 21 problems. But that wasn't the appropriate unit 22 to be housing inmate Epstein. 23 MR. : Now, did you even have 24 the authority to place him in Ten South, if you 25 wanted to? EFTA00119114 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 MR. : I mean, I could have, but I 2 would have had to have, you know, some 3 justification as to why I'm, I'm putting him up 4 there. And there would have been push back 5 from his attorneys. 6 MR. : Okay. Because some 7 people had mentioned that, saying the warden 8 doesn't even have the ability to do that. That 9 comes from a higher level. 10 MR. : I mean -- 11 MR. : Is that -- 12 MR. : -- in essence -- 13 MR. accurate, or -? 14 MR. in essence, it does 15 because I would have had to explain and justify 16 why, you know, certain inmates with certain 17 crimes are placed up there. Why am I placing 18 him? 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And then, the fact that, you 21 know, he is a pre-trial individual, and needs 22 access to his attorneys, that unit is just too 23 restrictive for that. 24 MR. : Now - and this is a total 25 Monday morning quarterback -- EFTA00119115 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- do you stand by the 3 decision that he would be in Nine South, or do 4 you think he should have been in Ten South, or 5 what are your thoughts on that? 6 MR. : I think he was appropriately 7 placed. 8 MR. : Okay. So, Nine South -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- was the -- 11 MR. : That was the appropriate -- 12 MR. : -- appropriate place for 13 him? 14 MR. : -- place for him. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Quick question. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Do you recall if there were 19 inmates in Ten South during that time? 20 MR. : Where? 21 MR. : In -- 22 MR. : Yes, there were. 23 MR. : -- yeah. Do you know who 24 those inmates were? 25 MR. : El Chapo had left. I got EFTA00119116 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the one that ran the call with people in 2 Brooklyn. He was there. 3 MR. HAYES: What was his name? 4 MR. : I forget. 5 MR. HAYES: What did he do? What was he 6 in there for? 7 MR. : That's the one that killed 8 the pedestrians in lower Manhattan and ran 9 MR. HAYES: Oh, yeah. 10 MR. : -- the vehicle into them. 11 MR. HAYES: Yeah, and then the guy kicked 12 the gun out of his hand. Right? Some guy -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *01:15:28). 15 MR. : He was there. I remember 16 SchulteSholty. There was another guy that was, 17 it had something to do with Osama Bin Laden. 18 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Who else? We had a younger 20 terrorist that was in there. So, we had, it 21 was -. They were all terrorists in, on 22 espionage charges. 23 MR. : All right. So, this is 24 along what we were just discussing. It says 25 that, this is from an , who's just EFTA00119117 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a supervisory staff attorney. MR. : Right. MR. : What does this CLC stand for? MR. : It's the Combined -. He, he, hHe's the supervisory attorney for Brooklyn and New York. MR. : Okay. MR. : At the time. MR. : So, he's kind of, like, the general counsel for Brooklyn and New York? MR. : Yeah. He was the supervisory attorney. So -- MR. : Okay. MR. he was in charge. MR. : All right. So, this was to you, and it was on Saturday, August 10th, 2019. It says, "Warden, per our conversation, I spoke to two of his attorneys yesterday, August 9th, 2019, primarily in relation to his request for access to water in attorney conference." MR. : Right. MR. : "Attorney Mariel Colon," so, M-A-R-I-E-L. Next word, C-O-L-O-N. "With EFTA00119118 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 whom I spoke in person in the late morning, had 2 asked, as an aside, whether we would consider 3 housing him in the cadre." What is the cadre? 4 MR. : Cadre is the camp. 5 MR. : Is that low level? 6 MR. : It's like our lower security 7 inmates. Yeah. 8 MR. : So, you have an actual 9 camp at the MCC? 10 MR. : It's low security inmates. 11 But remember, they are designated. So, we 12 couldn't put him in that unit because he's pre- 13 trial. We can't mix designated and pre-trial 14 inmates together. 15 MR. : Okay. It says, "I 16 advised we could not," since he was a pre-trial 17 inmate. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : "Later that day, but 20 prior to 1:00, close out meeting, I spoke to 21 attorney Michael Miller on the phone. He had 22 asked whether we could house Mr. Epstein alone 23 in the SHU, to which I replied that we could 24 not, based on his prior suicide 25 attempt/gesture." EFTA00119119 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 MR. HAYES: It's just, I've never heard of 2 his lawyers. You would think that his lawyers 3 would be somebody that I was familiar with. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. HAYES: Since they're probably 6 charging him $2,000 an hour. 7 MR. : "He acknowledged that he 8 understood. To my recollection, neither 9 attorney referenced consideration for suicide 10 watch or psychological observation during 11 yesterday's conversation. Please let me know 12 if you need any further information." Now, was 13 this just a request to any contact that he had 14 with his attorneys? 15 MR. : He was just keeping me 16 informed because the attorneys were calling 17 every day, with different types of requests. 18 MR. : But this was the day, 19 obviously, of when he was found. So, this 20 would -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- he's talking about 23 context, just literally the previous day -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- that he was looking EFTA00119120 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 for different housing type arrangements. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : But all right. If -. 4 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 5 MR. : Excuse me? 6 MR. HAYES: That was $1,000 a phone call. 7 (Indiscernible *01:18:25) charging. 8 MR. : Oh. Now, this answers 9 our question from before. So, this actually 10 says, it's from you to Mr. , it says 11 attorney logs. This is that same thing that we 12 were looking at. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, it looks like July 15 30th is highlighted, and Mr. Epstein. And 16 again, all these -- 17 MR. : These are the attorney 18 assignment. 19 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 20 *01:18:43). 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Yeah. So, that does now 23 clarify what it is, because, previously, there 24 was nothing that was in the subject liner. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119121 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 MR. : Or the body. Okay. 2 MR. HAYES: Yeah. I'm looking at the 3 stack, and I'm sitting here, just Jesus Christ. 4 MR. : We're coming to - hey - 5 we're almost halfway through. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: Well, that's the way you're 8 looking at it. (Indiscernible *01:19:04). A 9 little bit different, fellas. I'm thinking 10 about, I'm going to miss today's workout and 11 tomorrow's. 12 MR. : Well. 13 MR. : Now, you've already 14 answered this, but did you work at the MCC on 15 August 9th? 16 MR. : For that -- 17 MR. : 2019. 18 MR. : -- was Friday. Friday, I 19 was off. 20 MR. : What about on August 21 10th, 2019? 22 MR. : 10th was a Saturday -- 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : I was, I worked on 25 Saturday. EFTA00119122 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : All right. But did you 2 work in response to this? 3 MR. : No. I had to respond, if 4 the day of the suicide was August 10th -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- yeah, I had to respond if 7 I came in. 8 MR. : Okay. So, but you 9 weren't scheduled to work? 10 MR. : No. I wasn't scheduled to 11 work. 12 MR. : All right. This is just 13 for - and this is going to be put in here, in 14 case you need to reference it - these are 15 emails that were from you to Mr. , with 16 the staff roster. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And the reason I'm using 19 these is because these were literally sent on 20 Sunday, August 11th. So, I know that we can 21 rely on these 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- based upon being so 24 close. So, this one is for Friday, August 9th. 25 It's showing who was working that day. And EFTA00119123 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 this one is from Saturday, August 10th. Again, 2 showing who was -- 3 MR. : This is a correctional 4 roster. 5 MR. : -- correct. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Correct. This is a 8 correctional roster. Right. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : So, who was, basically I 11 think, involved with Epstein during that date? 12 So, yes. How many rosters would there be, 13 aside from correctional? 14 MR. : Well, the correctional 15 officers are the only ones that keep a daily 16 roster. 17 MR. : Like, R&D wouldn't do 18 anything like that? 19 MR. : No. Because their staff are 20 already assigned to where they are working at. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. And they have rosters 23 that show where everyone is working at. But 24 not, like, the correctional officer roster. 25 MR. : Okay. So, I'm going to EFTA00119124 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 have you just initial and date. I'm going to 2 place this, again, here, just in case we need 3 to reference it, and again, it's just if we 4 need to look at who was working, and what 5 position -- 6 MR. : There's two on there. 7 MR. : -- and what. Yes, 8 please. So, this one would be for the August 9 9th, that one is for August 10th. This 10 actually was not - the August 10th one - was 11 not attached to your email. Right? 12 MR. : Yeah. You are right. 13 MR. : So, the August 9th one 14 was attached, but the August 10th wasn't. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Yeah. So, we had to pull 17 that from -- 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : -- just for full 20 disclosure, but just so that we have both. The 21 August 9th one was something that you had sent. 22 All right. Since Epstein was required to have 23 a cellmate, who was ultimately responsible to 24 make sure that all the SHU staff were aware of 25 this requirement? EFTA00119125 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : That they were notified? 2 MR. : So, how -. So, Dr. 3 or Mrs. sent out that email, saying -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- Epstein is required to 6 have a cellmate. The one that we reviewed. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Who was required to make 9 sure that staff that is working in the SHU is 10 aware of that requirement? 11 MR. : Well, the captain passes it 12 on to the lieutenants, and the officers are 13 then made aware that he, you know, any inmate, 14 if they are required a cellmate 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- that, you know, that he 17 they are to require cellmate, if somebody 18 leaves or goes out. 19 MR. : Now, someone such as an 20 Epstein, who was just coming off of suicide 21 watch, you know, a week, a week and a half 22 prior, should all staff know that that person 23 is supposed to be housed with a cellmate? 24 MR. : In the Special Housing Unit, 25 anybody working in there would know that he was EFTA00119126 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 supposed to have a cellmate. 2 MR. : Do you believe that there 3 was any—anybody - especially anybody that's got 4 a quarterly bit of post there -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- but anybody that's 7 working in the SHU on August 9th or 10th, do 8 you believe that there could be a reason why 9 they would say, we didn't know he was supposed 10 to have a cellmate? Do you think that would be 11 an acceptable excuse? 12 MR. : Because you had the staff 13 that usually work up there, were up there. It 14 should be, it should have been annotated on his 15 - what do you call it? - it's called a 292. 16 MR. : The hot list, you are 17 referring to, or -- 18 MR. : No. Not the hot list. 19 MR. : -- or what? Oh, you 20 mean, oh, the 292. You're talking about the 21 SHU -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- file. 24 MR. : The SHU file. It should be 25 annotated on the SHU file because, when you EFTA00119127 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 come in, you have to annotate on there his 2 meals, did he eat, the medical rounds. So, it 3 would have been on there, it would have been on 4 there, too. So. 5 MR. : Would it have also been 6 on the hot list, though? 7 MR. HAYES: Guys. I need an interpreter. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: What does the hot list mean? 10 MR. : It's just 11 MR. : That's -- 12 MR. : -- sorry. 13 MR. yeah. I guess the high 14 risk suicide inmates. Yeah. So. 15 MR. HAYES: Whether it's suicide, or high 16 risk for some other kind of problem? 17 MR. : It could be -. It's mainly 18 for, like, suicide, just to -- 19 MR. HAYES: Medical. 20 MR. : -- to watch out for. Yea:-.. 21 Medical. Okay. 22 MR. HAYES: Seizures. You know, stuff 23 like that? 24 MR. : Yeah. So. 25 MR. : So, point being is, do EFTA00119128 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 111 1 you think that, if any staff that is working in 2 that, you know, as we know, Mr. Reyes left - - 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : -- in the morning of 5 August 9th, Mr. Epstein was found the -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- the morning of August 8 10th. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : SHU staff that is working 11 in there at that time, he's 24 hours basically 12 gone, you know, with no, without a cellmate. 13 Do you think that this is a reasonable excuse 14 for them to say that we didn't know he was 15 required to have a cellmate? 16 MR. : No, because they did know, 17 because I - from what I understand - someone 18 wrote a memorandum, and had it that day, that 19 they knew. 20 MR. : Okay. Well, yeah, we can 21 get into that. Now then, so these are -. 22 MR. HAYES: One other question. I want to 23 open a box. 24 MR. : Absolutely. 25 MR. HAYES: That means I'm going to have EFTA00119129 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 to bring a sharp object in here. Is that going 2 to bother anybody? 3 MR. : No. No. 4 MR. : No. No. 5 MR. : No, no, no, no. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. 7 MR. : I'm sorry, I thought you 8 were talking about, like, this hypothetical 9 situation of if we were in the MCC or 10 something. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. No. This is just a - 13 14 MR. : You're just wanting to 15 know if you can use scissors. Yeah. That's 16 fine. 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 MR. : I guess we should wait 19 until he gets -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- back again. If we 22 speak loudly, will you be able to hear our 23 questions? 24 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 25 MR. : All right. We're going EFTA00119130 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 to continue, then. The answer was yes. 2 MR. : I don't know if that was 3 somebody. 4 MR. : There might be clients in the 5 office. 6 MR. : Oh. 7 MR. : Huh? 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That's why. 10 MR. : Then we will wait. 11 MR. : He wasn't kidding about the 12 knife. 13 MR. : Oh. 14 MR. HAYES: You know why I got this? This 15 movie called Gangs of New York. 16 MR. : That's a great movie. 17 MR. HAYES: And he - and a good movie - 18 and the lead actress was a woman named Cameron 19 Diaz. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. HAYES: And I had a wild eyed crush on 22 Cameron Diaz, and this is the shiv, the knife - 23 seriously - I found the guy who made the knife 24 that she carried in the show, and I said, I 25 want you to make me an exact duplicate. How EFTA00119131 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 sick is that? Of that knife. And so, this is 2 it. 3 MR. : That's super cool. 4 MR. HAYES: So. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Sorry. I'll ask a few 7 more questions before we get into these 8 documents. Were any plans made on how to 9 address this situation for if Reyes was removed 10 as Epstein's cellmate? Like, if he -. Because 11 I know at MCC, inmates certainly leave. 12 (Indiscernible *01:26:13). 13 MR. : No. I mean, the plan would 14 have been, you know, we would have assessed it, 15 because usually, you get ahead of time, we 16 would have just said, okay, when is -? When 17 Reyes leaves, or you know, when he was leaving, 18 then before he was placed back in that cell, an 19 assessment would have been made. 20 MR. : Okay. Now, what is your 21 understanding of what happened with inmate 22 Reyes on August 9th, 2019? 23 MR. : When I got back after the 24 fact, I guess the Marshals came and removed him 25 from the institution. EFTA00119132 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : Okay. So, there is a lot 2 of people we've talked to thought he went to 3 court, and that at court, it was determined he 4 wasn't coming back. Had you heard that? 5 MR. : That's what I heard, too. I 6 had heard he was going to court. And then, I 7 guess word got back that he wasn't coming back. 8 That's what I heard. So, I never got 9 (Indiscernible *01:27:00). 10 MR. HAYES: It's either a good day in 11 court, or a bad day in court. 12 MR. : Yeah. I never got the 13 actual story because I was, I was removed. So. 14 MR. : Okay. And again, what 15 does WAB mean? 16 MR. : It means With All 17 Belongings. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : But I don't know, and I 20 don't know if people will say that he left, and 21 then they went and got him from the office. 22 So, I am not sure. 23 MR. : Okay. So, this is -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- one of those documents EFTA00119133 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 that says -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- from to 4 you. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : With inmate Epstein as 7 the subject. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : And it says, "So far, 10 this is the documentation I have in my 11 possession." 12 MR. HAYES: Wow. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And if you see, you know, 15 here, it talks about all the documentation 16 pertaining to him. These look like all the BOP 17 database -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : -- things. Then down 20 here, it says, "Documentation re: Reyes, Efrain 21 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : reg number 85993-054. 24 Cellmate." 25 MR. HAYES: Right. EFTA00119134 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : It says, "Court 3 documentation regarding WAB 8/09 -- 4 MR. : '19. 5 MR. : -- '19. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : And then, also SHU file. 8 So, "Showing court documentation regarding WAB 9 8/09/19." What documentation is she referring 10 to there? 11 MR. : I guess whatever came 12 through R&D. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Our Receiving and Discharge. 15 They might have gotten -. They must have 16 gotten information to release him, and that he 17 was being transferred. 18 MR. : So, would it be at all- I 19 know R&D creates something called, like, a 20 court production list, or 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- would that be what 23 she's talking about, the court production list, 24 or would she be, do you think -- 25 MR. : So -- EFTA00119135 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. : -- or, like, a PP-38, or 2 something, or whatever -? 3 MR. : I think, and I'm speculating 4 now, it was probably the court list, and it 5 probably said, we're sending him off to court. 6 And it was a possibility that he might be 7 getting released. 8 MR. : Because the document that 9 has been ealuding me -- 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- is that court 12 production list. Do you know if that was ever 13 obtained? Do you know, the thing that, that 14 R&D creates this list, they provide it to the - 15 16 MR. : Oh, the court -- 17 MR. : -- different housing 18 units. 19 MR. : -- list. I don't. I don't 20 know what they do with it. 21 MR. : They just, they all say 22 they -- 23 MR. : Now -- 24 MR. : -- destroy it after that 25 time. EFTA00119136 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. : Yeah, they do, but -- 2 MR. : But -- 3 MR. : -- with him -- 4 MR. : -- but that's what would 5 have been used by the SHU staff, in order to 6 produce Reyes to the R&D. 7 MR. : No. Not necessarily. What 8 typically happens is, the R&D staff will call 9 up to SHU, and say, hey, I need Reyes down. He 10 has court. Or he's being released. So, there 11 wouldn't have been a document sent up. 12 MR. : So, everyone that we 13 talked to said R&D said, yes, we created this 14 document. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : And the SHU staff, 17 including the OIC, said, yes, we had 18 documentation showing that he was WAB. So 19 then, and they all said it was because it was 20 this court production list that you sent out 21 emails to -. 22 MR. : Unless it's sent in the 23 early morning. 24 MR. : And it's not something 25 that's sent electronically. It's something EFTA00119137 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 they said that they generate, print out 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- and hand to 4 different, the ops lieutenant has one, every 5 housing unit has one. Internal goes around and 6 collects people, based upon it or something. I 7 think. And then -- 8 MR. : So -- 9 MR. : -- then they basically 10 destroy it at the end of the day, and nothing 11 is maintained in the system. They just use a 12 template, and create a new one for every day. 13 MR. : So, that must have been the 14 early court movement. So, I was under the 15 impression that he was, he left in the 16 afternoon. So, when typically in the 17 afternoon, they will just call up and say, hey, 18 we got one that's leaving. So, I assumed he 19 had left that afternoon. 20 MR. : Okay. So, is it, then, 21 are you not - then to answer that question - 22 are you not sure exactly what she's referring 23 to when she says "court documentation regarding 24 WAB"? 25 MR. : Like, the way you explained EFTA00119138 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 it, then that means they were talking about 2 morning courts. 3 MR. : Well, that's what they 4 were -- 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : I'm just talking about 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- specifically, what 10 she's talking about in this email to you. Do 11 you -? 12 MR. : But when you say WAB, With 13 All Belongings, it depends on the time of day 14 they left. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : You know? You could have 17 afternoon court, and you don't have that list 18 generated, and they say -- 19 MR. : But if -- 20 MR. : -- we need all his 21 belongings. 22 MR. : -- this might help -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- and then, we will keep 25 this in front of you -- EFTA00119139 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : -- this might help 3 explain this. So, this is an email that was 4 sent from the U.S. Marshal Service, someone 5 named III (Phonetic Sp. *01:30:50). 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : On Thursday, August 8th, 8 2019, at 10:33 a.m. It says, "Transfer of 9 prisoners from NYM -- 10 MR. : To GEO. 11 MR. : -- to GEO. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : The following prisoners 14 are to be transferred." The second person 15 listed out of the two is, "Reyes, Efrain." 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : "85993-054." 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : "Please schedule the 20 transfer for Friday, 8/09/2019. Please include 21 seven days medication with the medical summary. 22 Thank you." 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, this obviously was 25 sent to R&D. Correct? EFTA00119140 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. HAYES: Do we know what kind of 3 medication he was taking? 4 MR. : Well, that's Efrain 5 Reyes. We're not talking about -. 6 7 MR. : That's Reyes. MR. : We're not -. 8 MR. HAYES: I know. I just am curious. 9 MR. : It's not -- 10 MR. HAYES: We don't know? 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: -- relevant. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. HAYES: Okay. 15 MR. : I don't think it's 16 relevant. Here is another email that the U.S. 17 Marshal Service sent. This time, it was at 18 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. -: 21 It says, "Prisoner production." 22 looks like it was sent to custody. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. On Thursday, August 8th, 25 2019, at 3:36 p.m. And thcn, this, this EFTA00119141 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 document, prisoner schedule report is attached. 2 And -- 3 MR. : You're looking at the second 4 one. 5 MR. : -- so, for the MCC -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : -- it shows right here, 8 the second person listed as Efrain Reyes. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : And it just says, "TF, 11 transfer within. MCC New York." And right 12 here, it says, Judge MCC Tot, T-O-T. GEO. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : What I was told, that 15 means that he's transferring from the MCC to 16 GEO. Is that -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- your understanding? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : And then, on this one, 21 this is the PP-38. On the third - for 22 8/09/2019 - on the third page, it shows Reyes, 23 from ZO6-22. And that means the SHU. Correct? 24 MR. : Yes. SHU. 25 MR. : To pre-remove. EFTA00119142 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : At 8:38 a.m. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : So, this was 8:38 a.m. 5 He's keyed out of our system. We got these two 6 emails from the U.S. Marshal Service, saying 7 he's being transferred. 8 MR. HAYES: So, wait. Let me get this 9 clear. He's being transferred to what place to 10 what place? 11 MR. : From the MCC to GEO. 12 MR. HAYES: And what is GEO? 13 MR. : A contract facility. 14 MR. HAYES: And what is a contract 15 facility? 16 MR. : A private prison. 17 MR. HAYES: Okay. And you had nothing to 18 do with -? In other words, somebody else 19 decides to go from one place to another 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. HAYES: -- you (Indiscernible 22 *01:33:11). Okay. 23 MR. : The Marshals -. 24 MR. HAYES: And would that be the judge or 25 the Marshals? EFTA00119143 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 MR. : The Marshals, I guess. The 2 judge. I don't know how the Marshals work, but 3 they -- 4 MR. : Prosecutors. Marshals. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Judge. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. 8 MR. : All in coordination, make 9 those determinations. But, and then, here is 10 an email from you to Mr. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : With what you are talking 13 about, that memo. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : It says, "On Friday, 16 August 9th, 2019," but before we even get into 17 that, now that you have seen this, you have 18 seen these two emails. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : From the Marshal Service 21 on August 8th. On August 9th, at 8:38, R&D 22 actually keys him out. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : All of them say pre- 25 removed or transferred. EFTA00119144 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1/ 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Does that now tell you 3 anything about this, court documentation 4 regarding WAS? 5 MR. : Yeah. Now, it explains that 6 they had gotten a court order to have him go 7 out. 8 MR. : So, what do you think is 9 referred to that court documentation? 10 MR. : I guess it must be all of 11 these documents right here. 12 MR. : This? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : So, what we're actually 15 looking at, you think she's referring to? 16 MR. : That's, I think, that's what 17 she was referring to. 18 MR. : All right. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : So, court documentation 21 meaning, documentation from the Marshal 22 Service, saying that he was going to be 23 transferred? 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : All right. Now, based EFTA00119145 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 upon what you are looking at here, specifically 2 from the Marshal Service -- 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- and the fact that 5 Efrain Reyes, whom -. Is it -? I've been told 6 that everyone at the MCC knew who Reyes was 7 because they knew he was Epstein's cellmate. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : But at the very least, 10 everyone in the SHU should have known who 11 Efrain Reyes was. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Because he was Epstein's 14 cellmate. What should have happened once, on 15 August 8th, as early as 10:33 a.m., and as late 16 as 3:33 p.m., the day before Reyes is 17 transferred, what should have happened? 18 MR. : As far as Epstein getting a 19 cellmate? 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : The notification is being 23 made that this person is being transferred, 24 everyone gathers him up. And so, what this, 25 I'm going to read this just to give you more EFTA00119146 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 information -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- on his backtrack. 4 This is a memorandum, dated August the 12th, 5 2019, to the warden - yourself. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : From , who, my 8 understanding is he was the OIC of the SHU at 9 the time. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : It says, "Subject passed 12 information from Special Housing Unit." So, 13 "On a Friday, August 9th, 2019, at 14 approximately 1:50 p.m., I, SOS 15 passed onto oncoming staff member, Officer 16 , and present shift staff, SOS and 17 Officer , that inmate Reyes was goin: 18 WAB, and possibly may not return. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Also, that inmate Epstein 21 will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from 22 his attorney visit." Now, what this doesn't 23 state is that Officer , or SOS 24 walked, I mean, both Epstein -- 25 MR. HAYES: I'll go get that. EFTA00119147 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 MR. as well as Reyes, down 2 to R&D -- 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : -- with all belongings. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Spoke with both Epstein 7 and Mr. Reyes, and stated to Mr. - I think 8 Reyes stated to - make sure you get 9 him a cellmate. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : I'm not coming back. And 12 responding to Mr. Epstein, saying, 13 "Don't worry. We're going to get you a new 14 cellmate." 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Now, with all that 17 information, being that he is the OIC, he's 18 working in the SHU, he knows that he's WAB. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : We've got all this stuff 21 going on. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : This is the real big 24 reason why I want to talk to you -- 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119148 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : -- as the warden. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : This is kind of our 4 primary purpose -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- for us being here. 7 So, I apologize if you're going into that, but 8 I want you to have all the information -- 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- before I answer. What 11 should have happened here? So, R&D is 12 contacted the day before, or two days before 13 Epstein, or Epstein is found. One day before 14 Reyes is, you know, gone. They contacted both 15 custody, as well as R&D. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : R&D pre-removes him at 18 8:38 on 8/09. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : The SHU OIC walks him 21 down, to R&D -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- and actually has this 24 conversation with Epstein and Reyes, saying, I 25 know you are WAB, we're going to get you a new EFTA00119149 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 staff, we're going to get you a new cellmate. 2 MR. HAYES: Which means - WAB means what? 3 MR. : With All Belongings, 4 neans they're not coming back. 5 MR. HAYES: But Epstein is not coming 6 back? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : His cellmate. 9 MR. : Reyes. 10 MR. HAYES: Reyes. 11 MR. : His cellmate. 12 MR. HAYES: So, the theory is, if you are 13 investigating, somebody says that you're not 14 going to have a cellmate anymore, and in that 15 conversation, or present during that 16 conversation, is Epstein? 17 MR. : Epstein is present. Yes. 18 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein knows that 19 he's not going to have a cellmate for the 20 immediate future? 21 MR. : No. Epstein is going to 22 attorney conference. So, he's going to be -- 23 MR. HAYES: No, no, but I'm saying -- 24 MR. : -- in attorney conference 25 until about 7:00 p.m.. EFTA00119150 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MR. HAYES: -- that Epstein knows that, 2 over the next, say, 24 hours, he's not going to 3 have a cellee. 4 MR. : No. , the OIC, 5 tells Epstein, as well as Reyes, that they are 6 going to get him a cellmate. Before he comes 7 back from attorney/client, his attorney visit. 8 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, Epstein would know 9 that he hasn't - going to have a cellmate. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah. So, this 11 isn't part of the theory. What my question to 12 your client is, what should have happened based 13 upon the knowledge that he was WAB? The 14 contact with the Marshal Service, telling him 15 that he's being transferred. The fact that 16 R&D, you know, the OIC walked him down to R&D, 17 and R&D actually logged him out of our system. 18 What should have happened? 19 MR. : So, what should have 20 happened was, this information should have been 21 passed up to the supervisors. 22 MR. : At what point? 23 MR. : See, with the, this 24 information coming in, as far as, you know, 25 when R&D -- EFTA00119151 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- typically, it would come 3 up to the Special Housing Unit. Once it got up 4 to that, to the Special Housing Unit, the 5 lieutenants should have been notified. 6 MR. : Okay. And which 7 lieutenant? 8 MR. : Whoever was the SHU 9 lieutenant, whoever was the operations 10 lieutenant. 11 MR. : Now, on this case 12 MR. : If the -. 13 MR. : -- the SHU lieutenant is 14 also on leave. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : So, we've got the chief 17 psychologist on leave, the warden on leave, the 18 SHU lieutenant on leave. But we do have an ops 19 lieutenant, we do have an activities 20 lieutenant. And we do have a captain. 21 MR. : So, you should have let the 22 operations lieutenant know, if you didn't have 23 a SHU lieutenant. They, in turn, would let the 24 captain know, and the captain would push it up 25 to the execs then. Then, we would have to come EFTA00119152 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 to a determination on who we were going to 2 house with Epstein. 3 MR. : Now, if the operations 4 lieutenant, his name is 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : _• 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : If he says, yes, I know 11 Epstein was gone, but I believe that he was at 12 court -- 13 MR. : No. You mean -- 14 MR. : -- and he might be 15 returning back. 16 MR. : -- Reyes is gone. 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : So, knows 19 that -. Sorry, did I say Epstein? 20 MR. : Yeah. You said Epstein. 21 MR. : Yes. knows 22 that Reyes is gone. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : But I think he's at 25 court, and then, he might not be coming back. EFTA00119153 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 I didn't pass this information onto my relief, 2 who was (Phonetic Sp. *01:39:59). 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : However, as our 5 investigation has revealed, the ops lieutenant 6 also has one of these court production lists, 7 that lists Reyes -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- as WAB. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : With that knowledge, is 12 that a reason that he thinks that he went to 13 court, and might be coming back? 14 MR. : I can't interpret what his 15 thought process was, but if it said, you know, 16 he was leaving, and I don't know what he was 17 reading at the time. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : He could have been reading, 20 because sometimes the inmates do go out to 21 court and come back. So, I don't know. I 22 can't speak to what he read. Or why he made 23 that determination. 24 MR. HAYES: So, listen, wouldn't have most 25 inmates, when they go to court, come back? EFTA00119154 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 MR. : The point being here 2 MR. : What I'm saying 3 MR. he didn't go to court. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : He was transferred. 6 MR. : He was transferred. 7 MR. : And I know you might have 8 covered this, in your understanding, in your 9 experience at the MCC, if an inmate is listed 10 as WAB -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. -- With All Belongings -- 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : -- what is your 15 understanding? Are they coming back or are 16 they gone? 17 MR. : That means he's 18 transferring. 19 MR. : Has there been situations 20 where they come back? 21 MR. : There have been -- 22 MR. : After WAB? 23 MR. : -- situations that, you 24 know, they go out and they have to have them 25 sending them back, if there was an issue. EFTA00119155 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : Is that a unique situation, 2 or it happens quite often? 3 MR. : No. I wouldn't say. I 4 would say that it's probably unique. But 5 usually, WAB, they're gone. 6 MR. : So, as the operations 7 lieutenant, if you see somebody listed as WAB, 8 should he have understood that that person is 9 gone, and not coming back? 10 MR. : Should have. But then, 11 you're talking off the document. I don't know 12 what document they read. So, I don't want to 13 speculate what, you know, was it, you know, 14 send them to R&D, whether he saw that. I don't 15 know what document. But I'm saying, if it is 16 this document, that clearly stated WAB. 17 MR. : Okay. But as far as your 18 concern, it doesn't sound like what you were 19 saying is, , who was the OIC at the 20 time, should have he notified the ops 21 lieutenant? 22 MR. : Yes. Whoever is - yeah - 23 there should have notified the operations 24 lieutenant, hey, Reyes left, and -- 25 MR. HAYES: He needs a cellmate. EFTA00119156 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 MR. : -- he needs a cellmate, 2 MR. : Okay. So, would it fall 3 solely on the shoulders of 4 MR. : No. I mean, okay, so, 5 here's the other checks and balance. So, what 6 about the other people on the other shift? 7 MR. : That's my question. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, or -- 10 MR. : I mean -- 11 MR. : -- or the people that are 12 working on his same shift. 13 MR. yeah. On his own same, 14 shift -- 15 MR. : So, who -- 16 MR. if it was the 17 notification should have been made to the 18 operations lieutenant. Or the captain. And 19 said, hey, cellmate left. He needs a cellmate. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. HAYES: And that cellmate would now, 22 at some point, he goes back to the cell, but 23 that's at the end of the day. 24 MR. : At the end of the day. 25 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, nobody is in a EFTA00119157 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 position to say, hey, he's in a cell by 2 himself. Until the end of the day. 3 MR. : Right. But the information 4 is passed onto each other. You know, when you 5 6 MR. : And they are supposed to 7 be doing 30-minute rounds, where they would 8 notice that one cell had zero inmates in it. 9 MR. : Had zero inmates in it. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 11 MR. : So, I mean 12 MR. HAYES: And that's what brings us all 13 to -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. HAYES: -- here today. 16 MR. : So -- 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : I mean, that's how it 19 would have made, and when that got pushed up, 20 we would have said, okay, we would have to 21 formulate, okay, who can we get a cellmate for, 22 for Epstein? 23 MR. : And I apologize to ask 24 this because, but, like, so, on each shift 25 would be the OIC, that would be responsible for EFTA00119158 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 that. So, for instance, would be on 2 the day watch shift up until 2:00 p.m., he 3 would be the one to responsible to provide the 4 ops lieutenant, but then, the following shift, 5 would it be -- 6 MR. : Whoever is the -- 7 MR. : -- the next OIC -- 8 MR. right. 9 MR. : -- or would also the 10 people that are working in that unit, the other 11 SHU staff, would they be responsible? Or is 12 that a chain of command thing? Like, no, the 13 OIC is really the person making that 14 notification. 15 MR. : Everybody has a 16 responsibility for their safety. Everybody. 17 mean -- 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : I might be the OIC, but I 20 have some responsibilities. If I know, okay, 21 you know what? They might need a cellmate, 22 because I, in essence, I can have an individual 23 assigned to that post, and they're just filling 24 in for somebody that, the regular person that's 25 up there. And then, I have the regular people EFTA00119159 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 working up there, who are familiar with what's 2 going on. So, it's kind of everyone's 3 responsibility. You know? 4 MR. : So, is everyone kind of 5 equally responsible, then, for this? That was 6 working there and didn't pass the information 7 on. 8 MR. HAYES: Can you say? Don't guess. 9 MR. : You know what? 10 MR. : No, as the warden, he 11 would be able to say. 12 MR. : I mean, it should have been, 13 it should have been passed on. So, I don't 14 know the dynamics to, as far as what was going 15 on that day, who was working up there. What 16 rounds were being made -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- up there. You know, was 19 the lieutenant coming around? Was the captain? 20 How busy they were. 21 MR. : So, the lieutenant was 22 not on - the lieutenant of the SHU - was not 23 on. However, we do have records that the 24 activities lieutenant at least visited -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119160 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 MR. : -- the SHU -- 2 MR. : You have -- 3 MR. : -- at that point. 4 MR. : -- you have two other 5 lieutenants. Now, I don't know if you are 6 familiar with the Special Housing Unit, but it 7 is a very busy unit. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : You know, you're giving out 10 showers. You're giving out recreation. You're 11 doing a whole lot of stuff. You, you know, 12 running around all day, and, you know, 13 sometimes things happen. 14 MR. : Understood. But in this 15 case, wasn't Epstein at your most high-profile 16 inmate? At that time. 17 MR. : I mean, besides my terrorist 18 inmates that I had up there on Ten South. 19 MR. : Well, I guess, at least 20 the Nine South. 21 MR. : I would say he was a high- 22 profile. Yeah. He was a high-profile inmate. 23 MR. : Is it, I mean, on that 24 note, don't you think that they would have, you 25 know, found it pretty important to notify? EFTA00119161 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 Especially they - and I don't know that we 2 brought this today - but there was even signs 3 up that they created, saying, "Mandatory 30- 4 minute rounds on Epstein, signed by God." Or 5 something, you know, along the lines. Not, you 6 know, meaning, like, do this. You know? Like 7 8 MR. : No, that was me. 9 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 10 MR. : That was me. No. I mean, I 11 mean, but it was emphasized to them. I mean, 12 so, no one could say that they didn't know. 13 MR. : So, point being, there 14 was, like, signs specific to even Epstein, 15 check on this guy every 30 minutes. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : You know, orange signs 18 that are posted up there. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : So, point being, with 21 this -- 22 MR. : It should have been passed 23 up. 24 MR. : -- and that is where -. 25 So, for us, I guess -- EFTA00119162 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : -- again, and I know that 3 you are probably trying to, you know, hesitate 4 on maybe saying, like, this person did 5 something wrong, but really, who dropped the 6 ball here? Knowing, though, that you could 7 take a look, the day before, all these people 8 are the ones who received the email -- 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- in custody. And so, I 11 know we see Lieutenant . I'm sure - I'm 12 assuming would be on there. 13 MR. : I think is on there. 14 MR. : Who? 15 MR. : Is on there? 16 MR. : It's just -- 17 MR. : I didn't see 18 MR. : -- maybe. 19 MR. : But again, this one, that 20 one is not even as clear. This one 21 specifically spells out -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- this one, you would 24 actually have to go in and look at this 25 prisoner's schedule report. • EFTA00119163 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me just take a 2 look, just so I have, my mind is clear. There 3 is a prisoner's schedule. The prisoner's 4 schedule literally means prisoner's schedule. 5 MR. : Well, yeah. So, the 6 prisoner's schedule report is something like 7 this, but it will tell you that they are either 8 going to, like, transfer, or they are going to 9 go to court. Whereas this other document that 10 was sent to R&D was just specifically about the 11 transfer. 12 MR. HAYES: Okay. But there is nothing 13 that says recreation, personnel care. It's 14 mostly going to and from court, or leaving the 15 institution. 16 MR. : Yeah. Because it's a 17 prisoner's schedule. 18 MR. HAYES: Okay. 19 MR. : Report. 20 MR. HAYES: Okay. 21 MR. : So, it's, like, what they 22 are scheduled to do. Sorry. Yeah. No. It's 23 not, like, what their daily schedule is. Like, 24 in the institution. 25 MR. HAYES: Right. EFTA00119164 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 147 1 MR. : It's a U.S. Marshal 2 Service report that isthcy just provided to the 3 BOP, so that they know which inmates -- 4 MR. HAYES: Right. 5 MR. -- they need to produce, 6 and for what reason. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 8 MR. : Now, is that correct? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So, yeah. Based upon 11 what you are looking at here, on the 8th, and 12 then again, what we know about at the 13 very least producing, at 8:00, knowing he was 14 WAB, and R&D knowing he was WAB. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : What should have happened 17 there? Like, who, in your opinion here, 18 dropped the ball? 19 MR. : I think at all levels, it 20 was the checks and balance. If it went to the 21 lieutenant's office, somebody should have 22 picked it up. Working in the unit. It should 23 have been passed up to the lieutenant's office. 24 So, there were a couple of safety nets that 25 could have caught it. EFTA00119165 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 148 1 MR. : So, pretty much everybody 2 dropped the ball? 3 MR. : I mean, if we're looking at 4 it like this, if you're saying going by an 5 email being sent around. 6 MR. : Well, not only the email, 7 but I mean, the email, I can understand if 8 people are busy and they don't always, you 9 know, this one -- 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : -- it would be hard to - 12 that one would be hard to -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- you know, say that you 15 didn't know. This one, I could see maybe, you 16 know, the prisoner's schedule 17 MR. : Well, this one, I don't 18 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 19 *01:48:52). 20 MR. : I mean, I don't know what 21 gets sent out. I know, if this whole thing, I 22 don't know if it gets sent out to the staff. 23 think more 24 MR. : Well, this is -- 25 MR. : -- of a condensed version. EFTA00119166 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : -- this is with this. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : So, this was what was 4 sent with this. This was sent specifically, 5 just that. It's not a document. That's the 6 body. 7 MR. : Right. That was sent. 8 MR. : But that is, again, R&D. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : But, which again, R&D - 11 we didn't cover this - R&D is outside of 12 custody. Correct? 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : But speaking with R&D, 15 they said they would have produced this list, 16 which SHU would have had, as well as ops 17 lieutenant -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- the lieutenant's 20 office, all the housing units, which 4 —listed 21 Reyes as WAB. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Do you know if they are 24 actually looking - like, the lieutenant's 25 office, people in the lieutenant's office, or EFTA00119167 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 the ops lieutenant, activities lieutenant - are 2 they actually look at that list and saying, or 3 that's just based upon the busyness of their 4 day? 5 MR. : Yeah. I wouldn't speculate. 6 I mean, I don't know. I can't say what -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. lieutenant is looking at 9 stuff. I mean, it's, like, the documents. 10 MR. : No. I mean, but should 11 have they, I guess is the question? 12 MR. : As far as what? Emails that 13 are coming through, on who's leaving? 14 MR. : No, no, no. This would 15 be a physical paper that they were provided. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Internal would go around 18 and provide everybody with this physical paper 19 that they create, and then, they apparently 20 destroy it at the end of the day. 21 MR. : Right. So, I don't know it 22 the, you know, when internal gets the forms to 23 go, they are dropping it off at different 24 units. So, I don't know if one was passed off 25 to the lieutenant. The lieutenant would - I EFTA00119168 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE L. 1 guess this probably be the only document -- 2 MR. : No, no, no. 3 MR. : -- they tear up. 4 MR. : We are being told, by the 5 lieutenants, as well as -- 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- by R&D, they all have 8 it, and they all, and it would all - and it 9 would have said WAB. Unfortunately, I haven't 10 found that document to show you this is what 11 I'm referring to. But it's a document they 12 apparently create, which they call the court 13 production list. Are you -- 14 MR. : The court list. 15 MR. : -- yeah. 16 MR. : I've heard of the court 17 list. 18 MR. : But it's like a 19 MR. : And it -. 20 MR. : -- from my understanding, 21 it is an informal document that they are just 22 providing so that, you know, these are the 23 people that we need to produce today. 24 MR. : For internal, yeah. The 25 internal officer goes around and drops them off EFTA00119169 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 at every, you know, every unit, like hey, I 2 need this guy, I need that guy. It's a court 3 list. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : In the morning. 6 MR. : Exactly. 7 MR. : So, yeah, that's not 8 anything that's kept on record. 9 MR. : Right. So, I guess the 10 question, though, being that they had these 11 court lists, is another one of these checks and 12 balances? Or is that really just for the 13 Special Housing Unit? 14 MR. : I think they You mean as 15 far as the court list, I don't understand your 16 question, but -- 17 MR. : Yeah. It's just getting 18 back to the point of, like, Reyes left. We 19 were notified on the 8th. He left on the 20 morning of the 9th. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Epstein was found on the 23 10th. Didn't have a cellmate for 24 hours, and 24 we knew for almost 48 hours. What should have 25 happened, and who didn't do their job? Is EFTA00119170 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 153 1 really the question. 2 MR. : And like I said before, when 3 the notification, whoever was on the unit, knew 4 that he was leaving, it should have been passed 5 up to his supervisor. 6 MR. : All right. 7 MR. : This guy is leaving. But 8 then, okay, let's say the supe, or whoever is 9 working in there, doesn't do it, and somebody 10 should have stepped up and said, hey, this guy 11 needs a cellmate. And notified the lieutenant 12 that he needs a cellmate. 13 MR. : And that goes back to my, 14 anyone that was working in the SHU, should have 15 made that notification. 16 MR. : Should have said it. It 17 doesn't just -. Just because you are not OIC, 18 doesn't mean all the responsibilities falls on 19 you. It's everybody's job up there to say, 20 hey, okay, we need to, you know, this is what 21 we need to do. 22 MR. : And would that be the 23 case for, when he left during the day shift -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- the next shift is the EFTA00119171 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 night shift, when he would have - I believe 2 during the night shift - he would have come 3 back -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- and again, if they 6 were doing rounds, they would have noticed that 7 Reyes wasn't there in the first place. But 8 also, certainly, when they brought -- 9 MR. : Epstein back. 10 MR. : -- Epstein back to his 11 cell. There would have been no cellmate in 12 there. 13 MR. : You should have known he was 14 a cellmate. 15 MR. : And would it be the same 16 thing for the morning shift? That they would 17 know that Epstein was in there alone? 18 MR. : Because if the morning shift 19 is doing their 30-minute checks, you would have 20 realized he was in there by himself. 21 MR. : So, should have every 22 single shift reported it to the ops lieutenant, 23 that there is no one -? 24 MR. : Whoever caught it should 25 have, you know, let's say one shift missed it, EFTA00119172 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 the next shift should have picked up and said, 2 you know, called and said, lieutenant, we got a 3 - this guy needs a -- 4 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 5 MR. : -- a cellmate. 6 MR. : And again, I know we're 7 Monday morning quarterback because of the 8 result here, but what is your - as the warden 9 of the institution, on these dateys - how do 10 you interpret this? Is this a really 11 significant failure on their part, the not have 12 caught this and passed that information up? 13 MR. : It's not following the 14 directive. I mean, and then, look at result. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : So, I mean, the result is 17 what, you know, caused it to be a serious 18 matter. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Now, as far as going back 22 to this memo, do you know why Mr. 23 wrote this memo.,L 24 MR. : I forgot. I might have 25 called -. I might have called Lieutenant EFTA00119173 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 and said - and I don't know if he was 2 working - said, what happened up there? 3 MR. : Now, when you say 4 because he was the ops lieutenant, or are you 5 talking about who was the SHU lieutenant? 6 MR. -: , who was the 7 operations -. Because first, I know when I got 8 back, somebody told me wasn't at work, 9 because that was my first question. Who was 10 the SHU lieutenant? Where they are at. And 11 then, I think I did reach out to and 12 said, what happened up there? 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : And that's when I found that 15 out. 16 MR. : And did you ever speak 17 with either or about this? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Because by the time I had 21 gotten it, was the day -. That, I got that the 22 day of, when I had to go up to, I think the 23 U.S. Attorney's Office. 24 MR. : Okay. To speak with them 25 about this? EFTA00119174 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 157 1 MR. : When I speak up to them, and 2 them the agent had the memorandum. 3 MR. : He already had it on him? 4 MR. : He had it on him. Because 5 he was during the interrogation, he presented 6 it to the U.S. Attorney that was there. 7 MR. : And was that the first 8 time you had seen it? 9 MR. : No. I think I -. I don't 10 recall when I first saw it, but I know I had 11 gotten it. And I don't know if I had gotten 12 it, and then sent it up to my boss. And then, 13 given it to the IG. I forgot. I forget his 14 name, and who was handling the case. 15 MR. : For the IG? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. -• 18 MR. : If you weren't giving it 19 to (Indiscernible *01:55:18), it would have 20 been 21 MR. : Because he sat in there with 22 us. 23 MR. •• 24 MR. : So, he - I remember - he had 25 a copy of it. EFTA00119175 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Because we had told him that 3 they knew that they were supposed to -. 4 MR. : So, not including when 5 you were speaking with the OIG and the FBI, did 6 you discuss this at all with anyone from the 7 BOP, such as or 8 MR. : No. I just got the 9 memorandum, and that was it. Because I was, 10 like, wanting to know, like, what happened. 11 The, you know, the directives were given. What 12 happened? 13 MR. : And when you asked what 14 happened, was there a verbal response? 15 MR. : It was a verbal response. 16 MR. : And what did you -? What 17 were you told? 18 MR. : That they knew he was 19 supposed to -. That had passed it on 20 to other individuals about it. 21 MR. : Now, do you think that 22 that -. What is your thought process of 23 who is the one who actually presented 24 - excuse me - Reyes to R&D and WAB, what is 25 your thought of him now saying, you know, prior EFTA00119176 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 to the end of my shift at 2:00 p.m., I passed 2 it on to the next guy, saying that you guys got 3 to do it. 4 MR. : Now -- 5 MR. : Do you think he should 6 have done it, passed the informateetion on 7 during his shift? 8 MR. : Yeah. Absolutely. It 9 should have been letting the lieutenant know. 10 MR. : Uh-huh. 11 MR. : That, hey, this is - we got 12 a guy that needs to be -- 13 MR. HAYES: A cellmate. 14 MR. : -- that needs a cellmate. 15 MR. : I should clarify that. 16 MR. : What? 17 MR. : I think on the elevator it 18 was 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. -: was escorting Reyes 21 down to R&D. And was escorting 22 Epstein over to attorney conference. They just 23 happened to cross paths, I think -- 24 MR. : Yeah, they were together, 25 though. Right? EFTA00119177 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 MR. : -- yeah, but I think is 2 the one that brought him down to the - Reyes - 3 down to R&D. 4 MR. : Then that would make sense. 5 Because if is internal, internal takes 6 him to court. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And then, if somebody is 9 going to R&D, I mean, to attorney visit, then 10 it would be SHU staff taking him. 11 MR. : All right. So, if 12 is the one who is actually providing him to 13 R&D, did he have a responsibility, that if he 14 was WAB, to make any notifications? 15 MR. : I don't know if internal -. 16 You know, was internal, and I don't know 17 if he knew, you know, the situation. 18 MR. : And typically, would it 19 be internal's job - if they come and collect 20 somebody as WAB - would it be their job to tell 21 control, or the ops lieutenant, to say this guy 22 is off our books, or anything, or -? 23 MR. : No. Because we have a lot 24 of inmates that move in and out. 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00119178 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 MR. : So, he wouldn't be able to 2 keep track of every particular inmate that is 3 going and coming. 4 MR. : Okay. Basically, 5 everyone had a share of responsibility? 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:57:54). 7 MR. : All right. Before we 8 belabor this thing anymore, we want to just 9 initial and date these both documents. We can 10 get them out of your way and move on. 11 MR. : All of them? 12 MR. : Oh, yeah. Top of this, 13 top of this. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : This guy. You know, this 16 one. All right. 17 MR. : Let me take this. 18 MR. : Thank you, sir. Now, 19 prior to this meeting, did you know that Reyes 20 was actually transferred at MCC, and didn't go 21 to court? 22 MR. : Wait, prior to when? 23 MR. : This meeting. 24 MR. : Oh, no. I knew he -. I 25 heard that. You know? After his death, that EFTA00119179 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 he was -- 2 MR. : Transferred. 3 MR. : -- removed. That he was 4 transferred. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : When I came in on Saturday. 7 MR. : Were you required - or I 8 mean - were you aware that the Marshal Service 9 had sent those emails on August 8th, 2019? 10 MR. : I was not aware. 11 MR. : No? Well, did anyone 12 ever, prior to August 10th, did anyone ever 13 make you aware that Reyes was transferred from 14 the institution? 15 MR. : Prior to October 10th? 16 MR. : August 10th. 2019. 17 MR. : I found out when I came in 18 that morning, because I -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. was, like, where is his 21 cellmate? 22 MR. : Okay. So, you didn't 23 know that he didn't have a cellmate on August 24 9th? 25 MR. : No, I did not. EFTA00119180 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 1 MR. : Now, who was ultimately 2 responsible to make sure that Epstein has a 3 cellmate? 4 MR. : I mean, if it's the 5 directive that is given out, I mean, whoever is 6 working decide - passes it up, and then, that 7 ensures, you know, to make sure he has a 8 cellmate. So -. 9 MR. : So, SHU staff. 10 MR. : Whoever was working up 11 there. 12 MR. : Okay. When you say 13 working up there, does that include, like, 14 lieutenants doing lieutenant rounds and things 15 like that? Or -? 16 MR. : Well, yeah, from what 17 transpired, it is obvious the lieutenants 18 didn't know. I mean, they knew he was, based 19 on the email that, you know, they knew he was 20 leaving, but as far as when the finality of it 21 was, when you realize, okay, Reyes is gone. 22 You take Epstein, you bring him back up in his 23 cell, and he doesn't have a cellmate. I mean, 24 something should have went off on somebody to 25 make some notifications. EFTA00119181 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 MR. : Okay. I know we're going 2 to talk about counts. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. HAYES: Wait, wait. The notification. 6 Would that go up as high as you? If someone 7 would say? 8 MR. : They would send it up to the 9 lieutenants, then they would tell the captain. 10 And the captain would let the associate warden 11 know, and then it would get up to me. 12 MR. : Especially an instance 13 since you have a say in who -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. -: gotcha. 16 MR. : We would have to sit down 17 and say, okay, of all the available individuals 18 that are on the unit now, who can we house 19 Epstein with? 20 MR. : Now, what about in the 21 this case, where as you actually weren't 22 working that day, would that -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- should have they 25 called you -- EFTA00119182 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Yeah. Whoever is -- MR. : -- on the -? MR. -- whoever was the acting warden. MR. : That would make the determination? MR. : She would have made the determination to. MR. : Who was the acting warden that day, do you know? MR. : I don't know if I left or in -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- as the acting. MR. : One of those two. MR. : It would be one of those two. MR. : And it wouldn't be the • MR. assistantee. MR. No. He's the executive : Now, what is the difference between, like, an executive assistance and an AW? MR. : The associate warden is a EFTA00119183 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 GS-14, and the executive assistant is a 13. 2 MR. : Okay. So, they are not - 3 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : -- but what, is that 6 executive assistant just mainly to assist you 7 in your functions? 8 MR. : He assists in the functions. 9 I had also given him some other departments to 10 monitor. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : So, they manage, also, those 13 other departments. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : I just got a question. 16 don't know if you may be asked him about the 17 backup list. Was there a backup list of names? 18 MR. : For? 19 MR. : I think, I think we did 20 talk about it, but if Reyes - we did -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- but -- 23 MR. : Sorry. 24 MR. : -- when we talked about 25 if Reyes was removed because the institution EFTA00119184 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 always has people coming and going -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- so frequently, was 4 there, like, a list that was set in place, that 5 we would now consider these people, or would it 6 be just the whole new -? 7 MR. : No. Because we would have 8 to base it on who was there. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Because of the turnover in 11 the unit. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : All right. Now, we're 14 going to get into counts. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, this is an email sent 17 from you to Mr. . It's the count slips 18 for -- 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- it was sent on 21 Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 5:11 p.m. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : This shows, ZA is the 24 SHU. Correct? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119185 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. : So, this says, at 8:10, 2 it shows that the count for ZA was 73. Signed 3 by M. Thomas and Ms. Noel. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And it says, that count 6 was done, it looks like, at -- 7 MR. : 12:01 a.m. 8 MR. : -- 12:01 a.m. And then, 9 we get the next one is at 3:00 a.m. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : It goes down to 72. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : At 5:00 a.m., there is 14 72. And here is the count, the institutional 15 count, it shows 72 at - what time? - 12:00 a.m. 16 Or no. This one is 3:00 a.m. 17 MR. : 3:00 a.m. 18 MR. : I don't know why this is 19 all out of order. 5:00 a.m. So, at 12:00 20 a.m., this says 72. 72. 21 MR. : I think that was just an 22 MR. : 72. 23 MR. : -- attachment to that email 24 that you sent. 25 MR. : So, but as you know, as EFTA00119186 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 you notice, one of them said -. So, the count 2 slip said 73 for 12:00 a.m., over the 3 institutional count. And as you see here, for 4 12:00 a.m., it said 72. 5 MR. HAYES: By the institution, you mean 6 the SHU? 7 MR. : No. The institution. 8 MR. : It means the whole. 9 MR. : MCC does a count -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- and -- 12 MR. HAYES: Right. 13 MR. : it's= what the 14 official -- 15 MR. HAYES: The count. 16 MR. : -- number show 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. 18 MR. the SHU, these count 19 slips are supposed to be the -. Actually, let 20 you, you can answer my question. What is 21 supposed to be the difference between what 22 happens with the count slip, and what happens 23 with the institutional count? So, I'm not 24 answering your question. 25 MR. : So, what happens is, on the EFTA00119187 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 shift, you call the count, and the different 2 units call in the count to control center. 3 MR. : And how do they get that 4 count number? 5 MR. : From counting. They have to 6 go around and count. 7 MR. : Physically counting an 8 inmate? 9 MR. : You have to -- 10 MR. : Correct? 11 MR. : -- physically count the 12 bodies. 13 MR. : And then, they take that 14 total amount of inmates, and they call that 15 into the control center? 16 MR. : They call that into the 17 control. 18 MR. : And where does the 19 control center get their numbers from? 20 MR. : This is what is called an 21 El. Which is a print out of the number of 22 inmates in each unit. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So, if an instance, for 25 example, we look at BA unit. So, there is EFTA00119188 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 171 1 supposed to be 26 in there. If somebody calls 2 it in there, they say, it says 25, they tell me 3 it's a bad count. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : So, they have to go back and 6 count again. 7 MR. : So, the El is created 8 based upon what inmates are listed within your 9 system. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : The count slips are based 12 upon how many inmates they actually count. 13 MR. : What they count. 14 MR. : And the purpose of that 15 is what? Why are the inmates counting inmates, 16 and why are they providing that number to 17 control? 18 MR. : So, we make sure every 19 inmate is in the institution. 20 MR. : The accountability of the 21 inmates. Correct? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Great. So, the - so, 24 does that answer your question? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119189 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 MR. : So, the next email is 2 sent about one hour later, at 6:13 p.m., on 3 August 10th. It says, "Why did the count 4 change from 73 to 72 between 12:00 a.m. and 5 3:00 a.m.?" 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Do you remember what your 8 response was to that? 9 MR. : I don't. 10 MR. : And then, this one is 11 another one from III to yourself. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : It says, "The 12:00 a.m. 14 count slip reads 73, and the 12:00 a.m. -- 15 MR. : El. 16 MR. : -- El says 72." 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : So, those kind of go 19 together. Do you remember what your findings 20 were there? 21 MR. : I don't remember. Because 22 typically what happens on the count, you are 23 supposed to - the lieutenant is supposed to 24 take one count at night, and then review 25 documentation. So, I don't know what happened EFTA00119190 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 with the discrepancy. 2 MR. HAYES: I mean, this isn't really that 3 relevant, because we noted Epstein was there. 4 MR. : No. It's relevant for 5 our investigation. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : All right. So, if you 8 don't mind, just initialing and dating that, 9 and then, we can explain to you why that is 10 relevant. So, you don't, though, recall? You 11 didn't find out what actually happened? 12 MR. : I don't recall what the 13 response is I gave. 14 MR. : No? And do you remember 15 looking into it at all? 16 MR. : When was that sent? 17 MR. : That was the day 18 MR. : When did he send it? 19 MR. : -- that was the day of. 20 MR. : The day of. 21 MR. : The day Epstein was 22 found. 23 MR. : I don't because it was just 24 so much going on. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119191 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 MR. : That I can't really remember 2 what, how I responded to them on that day. 3 MR. : Do you remember learning 4 anything about the accuracy or inaccuracy of 5 the counts, on the 9th and 10th? 6 MR. : What do you mean the 7 accuracy and inaccuracy? 8 MR. : Like, if the counts were 9 actually accurate or not. 10 MR. : I don't recall that. 11 MR. : You don't recall -- 12 MR. : No. I can't think of that. 13 MR. : -- finding out about 14 that? 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. : Did you recall, did you 17 find out if the SHU counts and rounds were not 18 conducted by the SHU on August 9th or 10th, 19 2019? By the SHU staff. 20 MR. : If they did rounds or not? 21 MR. : Correct. Did you find 22 out if the SHU staff had conducted both 30- 23 minutes rounds, as well as the institution 24 counts on August 9th and 10th? 25 MR. : I don't know if it was after EFTA00119192 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 the fact that I was told that the Officer did 2 make their rounds. And I don't recall if it 3 was, they put it in the logbook, that they made 4 rounds, but that in all actuality, it wasn't 5 done. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, that might have been 8 something that came up afterwards. 9 MR. : But you are not super -. 10 You know, this, you don't really know what 11 happened or didn't happen? 12 MR. : That day. Because I mean, 13 it happened that weekend, everything was 14 moving, and then, by Monday -- 15 MR. : Right. So -- 16 MR. everything elese just 17 changed. So -- 18 MR. : -- but on the 10th or 19 11th, you didn't hear 20 MR. I didn't -- 21 MR. : -- find out? 22 MR. : -- hear anything about, 23 recall anything about that. 24 MR. : But had you heard that 25 they didn't at least conduct some of their EFTA00119193 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 rounds and counts? 2 MR. : That they didn't? 3 MR. : That they did not. 4 MR. : It was - and I don't want to 5 use the word that it was just, you know, an 6 assumption, you know, like, because one of 7 them, I had asked to come up and speak with, 8 but it was Thomas, and he wouldn't come up. 9 MR. : And this was on the 10th 10 in the morning? 11 MR. : This was on the 10th, when 12 we got him up, because I wanted to speak with 13 him because people were telling me he was 14 distraught. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, I wanted to make sure he 17 was all right. You know? And he just, he 18 didn't want to come up and talk. 19 MR. : What are your thoughts of 20 Thomas as an employee? 21 MR. : I've known Thomas a couple 22 years. I never had any issues with him. You 23 know, it was any, you know, like any other 24 employee, you do something, I correct you on 25 the spot, and that's it. But I have never EFTA00119194 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 7 7 1 encountered him to do anything, known him not 2 to count, do his job, you know? 3 MR. : What about Ms. Tova Noel? 4 MR. : She was new. So, she had 5 just gotten there. You know, she got the same 6 spiel from me that everybody else does. You 7 know? You are new. You can't do the things 8 that somebody at 20, that has 20 years in it. 9 They're not doing their job, you shouldn't be 10 following it. 11 MR. : And did you -- 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : -- actually speak with 14 her about that? 15 MR. : Oh, I do that in my 16 (Indiscernible *02:09:22) class, when they 17 first come in. 18 MR. : Okay. So, that is 19 something -- 20 MR. : And I had -. 21 MR. : -- you would have said to 22 everyone? 23 MR. : Oh, I said it clear as day. 24 And same thing I would say in my ART class. 25 Annual Refresher Training. EFTA00119195 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 MR. : Because this is -- 2 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:09:34). 3 MR. one of her excuses, 4 saying that 20 year guys, I'm following them, 5 they are not doing it, so I'm not doing it. Is 6 that something you clearly entrust -- 7 MR. : So, here's my speech 8 MR. : -- to her? 9 MR. : -- my spiel I used to tell 10 people. I said, go ahead and follow that 20 11 year guy, and you are on probation, guess what 12 happens? He might get some time in the street. 13 You're getting fired. 14 MR. : And are you confident 15 that Ms. Noel would have heard that speech from 16 you? 17 MR. : She heard the speech from 18 me. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. I'm confident. 21 That's the speech I gave everybody. Same thing 22 in the ART. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : Good enough. EFTA00119196 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 MR. : So. 2 MR. : All right. So, this is 3 going to go back. This is just my little list 4 that I wrote of exactly what happened, and then 5 I'll read to you, but -- 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : I just want just for 8 our purposes, I'm going to just show you, and 9 you can refer to them. On this one, at first, 10 going to be the count on the 9th, that was 11 conducted at -- 12 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 13 MR. : -- is this 4:00 p.m. Is 14 this the 4:00 p.m. or the 5:00 p.m. here? 15 MR. : No. This? 16 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 17 MR. : 4:00 p.m. count. There's 18 just signed off -- 19 MR. : No. There's no 4:00 p.m. 20 count. 21 MR. : -- yeah, it's the 5:00. 22 MR. : 5:00. Sorry. 23 MR. : Yeah. It's -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- 12:00. 12:00. 3:00. EFTA00119197 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 And 5:00. 2 MR. : No, no. This is afternoon. 3 MR. : Yeah. So, this is 4 Friday. 5 MR. HAYES: I'd say (Indiscernible 6 *02:10:40)-- 7 MR. : All right. Friday. Is 8 that a -- 9 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:10:41) 10 MR. : -- 4:00 p.m. 11 MR. : You told him about overnight. 12 MR. : -- count? 13 MR. : Oh, it's a 4:00 p.m. count. 14 MR. : It's a 4:00 p.m. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Then 4:00 p.m. Then 18 there is the 8:00 p.m. 19 MR. : No, no. 4:00 p.m. 10:00. 20 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 21 Sorry. 22 MR. : And midnight. 23 MR. : 4:00 p.m. 10:00 p.m. 24 Midnight. 25 MR. : 3:00 and 5:00. EFTA00119198 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : 3:00. And 5:00. So, these are basically the time period in question. Everywhere from 4:00 p.m. through the 5:00 a.m. count the next day, on August 9th and 10th. MR. : Okay. MR. : Here are the lieutenant logs. And these are the emails that, again, I'm going, just going over these just because, so I'm not pullingblowing things out of thin air. These are the -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- yeah, emails that we were able to obtain. So, this was from a . Who was the ops lieutenant at that time. MR. MR. MR. MR. : Right. : Fairly regularly. : Mm-hmm. : And during the morning watch. So, this one was sent, from her, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. It says, these are the August 10th, 2019. Daily activity report. And then, we got the daily lieutenant's log here. EFTA00119199 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : So, where would this -? 3 This is just out of order. This should have 4 been first. So, Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 5 sends one at -. So, first, I want to ask this 6 question. So, on Friday, August 9th, 2019, she 7 sends one at 5:11 a.m. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : And Saturday, she sends 10 it at August 10th, 2019, at 9:26 a.m. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And on Sunday, August 13 11th, 2019, she sends it at 6:15 a.m. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : Now, reviewing all of the 16 lieutenant logs that came out prior to that 17 time, they are all sent out pretty much between 18 5:00 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : -- by all the various -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. ops lieutenants. Do 23 you find it odd that she didn't send this one 24 out until 9:26 a.m., being that, I know Epstein 25 was found at 6:33 a.m., but typically, they EFTA00119200 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 were sent out much earlier than that. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : Is that -? I know she 4 sent it out after the incident, and after, you 5 know, everything happened, but do you think it 6 was weird that she sent that one out at 9:26 7 a.m. versus prior to that 6:33 a.m., when her 8 shift ends at 6:00 a.m.? 9 MR. : I mean 10 MR. : She was relieved at 5:30 a.m. 11 by Lieutenant 12 MR. : That's what I'm saying. She 13 wasn't at the -. When I got there, Lieutenant 14 was the lieutenant -- 15 MR. : Correct. 16 MR. : -- who contacted me 17 regarding -. 18 MR. : She was supposed to be 19 gone by 5:30 a.m. 20 MR. : So, yeah. I don't know. If 21 she left at 5:30 or whatever, and I don't know 22 how they (Indiscernible *02:13:07). 23 MR. : Well, that's when she was 24 relieved. She didn't leave until after this 25 was sent out at 9:26 a.m. EFTA00119201 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 MR. : I don't recall her being in 2 the institution around then. 3 MR. : She - after Epstein was 4 found - she actually went into the SHU. She 5 helped with feeding. And then, she went back, 6 and she did some things on the computer. 7 MR. : I thought -- 8 MR. : And she sent it. 9 MR. : I thought relieved 10 her, and she left. 11 MR. : At 5:30 a.m., she was 12 relieved. She stuck around because she said 13 she had work to do. After Epstein was found, 14 she came to the SHU, and assisted 15 , who also wasn't working in the SHU, but 16 was there because he was the Comtech guy. And, 17 at the time, Thomas was gone. Noel was there. 18 But at some point, Noel left. 19 MR. : And I'm looking at this, but 20 I was under the impression, when had told 21 me he had relieved her, and she left. 22 MR. : So, do you find that odd, 23 then, that she was still there until 24 MR. : Until 9:30. 25 MR. : -- at least 9:30 a.m.? EFTA00119202 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : Yeah. I didn't, I didn't -. 2 Yeah. 3 MR. : This is the first you're 4 hearing of this? 5 MR. : Yeah. Because when I was 6 told she was gone. So, unless -- 7 MR. : Because you wanted to 8 talk with her? 9 MR. : -- no. I mean, he relieved 10 her. So, I guess, technically, when you 11 relieve somebody, then, then it becomes your 12 issue. So, I was talking to Lieutenant 13 But I didn't want, you know, I, I assumed she 14 was the one that -. But I heard she had left. 15 I didn't know she had come back. 16 MR. : She allegedly did not 17 come back. She allegedly was there 18 MR. : There. 19 MR. : -- the entire time. 20 MR. : So then, that is kind of 21 odd, because usually, your log is completed 22 before you leave. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : On your log, you will write 25 on there, I'm relieved by such and such. EFTA00119203 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 MR. : So, is that suspicious to 2 you at all? 3 MR. : Kind of. Yeah. But I'm 4 curious as to why you didn't log it down 5 something. 6 MR. : Now, why -? What kind of 7 employee is 8 MR. : Had some issues with her. I 9 mean, I don't want to -. You know, everything 10 that is going on is an allegation. So, I don't 11 want to go speaking on allegations that I have 12 sent up. 13 MR. : Was she a problem 14 employee, then? 15 MR. : I had some issues. Yeah. 16 MR. : Any reason why she 17 believed that she might be involved with 18 Epstein and his death? 19 MR. : Oh, no. I wouldn't put it 20 as far as that. I mean, but it is just, I 21 wouldn't. And I don't know -- 22 MR. HAYES: She's (Indiscernible 23 *02:15:29) to tell. I mean -- 24 MR. : I mean -- 25 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:15:29). EFTA00119204 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. : -- that's why I went over -. 2 Can you rephrase your question, like, what are 3 we saying? 4 MR. : Yeah. I mean, I'm going 5 all the way to -. I just ramped it up to 100 6 miles an hour. I'm just saying all the way to 7 8 MR. : I can't -- 9 MR. : -- to probably, could you 10 -. Was there any reason to believe that she 11 could be potentially involved with this? 12 MR. : As far as doing harm to him? 13 MR. : Keeping his cell door 14 open. And letting another cell door open for 15 someone else. You know -- 16 MR. : I wouldn't -- 17 MR. : -- anything like that. 18 MR. : I wouldn't see that. 19 MR. : No? 20 MR. : I couldn't see that. No. 21 MR. : No reason to believe it 22 would go that far, just maybe insubordination 23 is the highest that she goes? 24 MR. : Yeah. I would, you know, I 25 EFTA00119205 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : She -- 2 MR. : -- she has the allegations 3 up. I know you guys were seeing the 4 allegations. So, I, yeah, but I wouldn't go 5 that far. But I can't -. 6 MR. HAYES: Well, is she in a position to 7 do something like that? 8 MR. : What? 9 MR. HAYES: To leave the door open, or 10 something that's egregious? 11 MR. : She does lieutenant 12 rounds. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : She's the ops lieutenant. 15 MR. HAYES: She is in position to do that. 16 MR. : But remember, when you are 17 going down range and the range door keys, you 18 can't have both. Somebody would have to let 19 her down there. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And those keys. Those keys 22 go down. 23 MR. : Do you know if she was 24 particularly friendly with either Noel or 25 Thomas? EFTA00119206 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 MR. : I don't know what their 2 relationship was. She was the shift 3 lieutenant. So, I don't know what 4 relationships. Who she's had (Indiscernible 5 *02:16:48). 6 MR. : For the 8th, I just realized 7 we might not have the daily log for it. 8 MR. : Fortunately, I brought 9 backups of different things. So, I think I got 10 11 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 12 MR. : The 9th and the 10th is in 13 there. 14 MR. HAYES: I keep looking at this pile. 15 I think those eff'ing sons a bitches are 16 working hard. 17 MR. : I don't think the 9th is 18 in there. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Just the 10th. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : No, no. It's the second set. 23 MR. : No, that's the 10th. 24 MR. : No, the dates are -- 25 MR. : Can I say -? EFTA00119207 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 MR. -- the following dates. 2 Sorry. 3 MR. : Can I see the time 4 (Indiscernible *02:17:14)? 5 MR. : Just, I just want to confirm 6 with that. 7 MR. : Of course. Yeah, yeah. 8 Okay. That's the August 9th. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : Okay. Great. 11 MR. : So, those two. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : That's the previous date we 14 don't have. 15 MR. : All right. 16 (Indiscernible *02:17:25) right now. All 17 right. So, what did you want to see? 18 MR. : I wanted to see that 9:26 19 one. 20 MR. : Yeah. So, that is -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. and this is what we 23 were going to show you, is the count numbers, 24 that's what we are getting at next. 25 MR. : Wait. Which is the one -? EFTA00119208 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 MR. : So, this is from Friday, 2 August 9th. 3 MR. : Okay. This is at what time? 4 MR. : This just, that says morning 5 watch. 6 MR. : Ish. 7 MR. : Yeah, but why is it saying 8 the 10th? 9 MR. : So, it was, the email was 10 sent out on the 10th morning. Right? But when 11 12 MR. : So, she was -. Her -- 13 MR. : -- she included everything - 14 15 MR. : -- shift -- 16 MR. : -- everything from the 17 previous day. 18 MR. : Yeah, but this is August 19 9th. 20 MR. : They sent it out the day 21 after. 22 MR. : Epstein is back. 23 MR. : So, see this one? This 24 one is sent out on Sunday, August 11th, for the 25 day prior, starting -- EFTA00119209 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 MR. : Right. So -- 2 MR. : -- Saturday, August 10th. 3 MR. no, I get that. So, she 4 started. Her shift was morning watch on 5 Friday. Okay? So, she goes to 12:00. So, she 6 is relieved by Lieutenant II 7 MR. : So, no, no. 8 MR. : No, this is -. This should 9 be Thursday into Friday. 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. No. I 12 MR. : So then, it goes -- 13 MR. : -- yeah. See. I thought 14 this was -- 15 MR. : -- into day watch. 16 MR. : -- the day of. Then you go 17 to day watch, and it goes to evening watch. 18 Now, what is the -? Which log is it for the 19 day of? 20 MR. : So, this is the day of. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : And this is, we are going 24 to get into. So, this one is the day before, 25 August 9th, when Reyes left, and we can look to EFTA00119210 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 see on here, as well, where it says -. So, if 2 we go to this 8:38 on the lieutenant's log, it 3 says that Reyes is pre-removed. Right here. 4 "Reyes to pre-remove at 8:38 a.m." 5 MR. : Okay. So -- 6 MR. : That is August 9th, 2019. 7 So, we're going to go all the way down to 8 The one thing, I guess -- 9 MR. : So, the count -- 10 MR. : -- we want to look at is, 11 here, we got this individual, lam Fernandez 12 (Phonetic Sp. *02:19:31). Who is on dry cell 13 with staff in R&D watch. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : From the SHU. So, if you 16 look at the count Where the heck is the -? 17 MR. : Okay. So, I just want to go 18 back to clarify something with -- 19 MR. : Yup. 20 MR. with Lieutenant 21 So, we are saying this is at 9:23, she did it. 22 Right? 23 MR. : 9:26. 24 MR. : So - 9:26 -- 25 MR. : She did it. EFTA00119211 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 morning. 4 MR. 5 out. : -- this was on -- The 10th morning. Saturday : -- this is when she sent it 6 MR. : Correct. Like, three 7 hours after Epstein was found. 8 MR. : And this is 9 MR. : (Indiscernible 10 *02:20:03). 11 MR. : -- Friday's log. 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : That that's 14 MR. : But they - the same 15 thing, though - they all seem to sending it out 16 the day before. 17 MR. : The day before. And then, 18 she sent the day before logs out on Saturday. 19 Yeah. 20 MR. : She combined it. If you look 21 through it, it has everything combined. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : It goes from morning watch, 24 day watch, evening watch, into 25 MR. : Right. But I'm just -. EFTA00119212 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 That should have been done the day before. 2 Okay. 3 MR. : I don't think you're 4 right, bud. I think she's just doing the 9th. 5 The next day does the 10th. 6 MR. : Yeah. That's right. 7 MR. : Yeah. Okay. 8 MR. : (Indiscernible *02:20:41) 9 combined. 10 MR. : Yeah. That's what -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- that's why I'm a little 13 confused about. 14 MR. : Yeah. No. She's not -- 15 MR. : Because when she came -- 16 MR. : -- she does the day 17 before. 18 MR. : -- she came on shift at 10:00 19 p.m. 20 MR. : She started her shift at 21 10:00 -- 22 MR. : 10:00 p.m. 23 MR. : -- p.m. 24 MR. : Of the 9th -- 25 MR. : And worked until EFTA00119213 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 MR. : -- evening. 2 MR. : -- 6:00 a.m., but got 3 relieved at 5:30. So -- 4 MR. : That's right. 5 MR. -- yeah. 6 MR. : The lieutenants were working 7 from 10:00. 10:00 to 6:00. 8 MR. : Correct. Because the, we 9 were told because of traffic issues -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- or something else. 12 MR. : And short -. Yeah. 13 MR. : So, what we want to, and 14 I want to kind of reference here is, Iam 15 Fernandez on dry cell, with SHU staff and R&D. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : And the end of this shows 18 72. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So, on August 9th, 2019, 21 at 11:59 a.m. - or August 10th, 2019, at 12:00 22 a.m. - there is supposed to be 72 inmates, 23 according to this log that sent 24 out. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119214 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 197 1 MR. : There is supposed to only 2 be 72 inmates there. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : Now, look at the shift 5 for August 10th, when this person started their 6 shift, there was 73. 7 MR. : So -- 8 MR. : And the institutional 9 logs -- 10 MR. right. 11 MR. show at 12:00 a.m., 12 there were - or so, that looks like - so, there 13 is -. Let's go. So, for ZA, there shows 75 at 14 the 4:00 p.m. count. The 10:00 p.m. count, 15 there shows 73. And then, at the midnight 16 count, there it says 72. However, the count 17 slips, if you recall 18 MR. : 73. 19 MR. : -- where are the count 20 slips? So, it is -- 21 MR. : The counts. 22 MR. : -- it says the SHU 23 submitted a count slip for 73 at 12:00 a.m. 24 Here you go. So, that is not the count. Oh, 25 yeah. There. So, see? 12:00 a.m., they EFTA00119215 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 submit it. Thomas/Noel submitted 73. 2 Although, the institutional count says 72. 3 Now, not , but the next one 4 shows that, the next ops lieutenant shows that 5 73 is what is written in this. She went back 6 and changed 72, the day before, with the 9:30, 7 because it was determined -- 8 MR. : That he was on the outcount, 9 and on -- 10 MR. : -- oh, yeah. 11 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 12 *02:22:57). 13 MR. : And so, Fernandez was 14 never removed -. So, look at -. It shows it 15 on this. "One SHU correction. Fernandez dry 16 cell." So, at 12:35 a.m., and we do have 17 Fernandez right here. 18 MR. : Looking back. 19 MR. : Okay. So, this just 20 says, this is what happened with him. He was 21 found to have contraband, that he was providing 22 to a visitor in the SHU, at approximately, 23 like, I think 1:00 p.m. on August 9th. He was 24 moved from the SHU to dry cell. And he was 25 never -- EFTA00119216 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : Keyed in. 2 MR. : -- keyed out. 3 MR. : What - yeah - what they 4 should -- 5 MR. : Keyed out of the SHU. 6 So, the institutional counts were reflecting -- 7 MR. : 73. 8 MR. : -- 73. That is what the 9 SHU continued reporting. 73. Because that is 10 what - that's what, according to the system, 11 was supposed to be in there. But if they had 12 physically -- 13 MR. : Counted. 14 MR. : -- counted -- 15 MR. : They would have known -- 16 MR. : -- it would have 17 MR. : -- he wasn't there. 18 MR. : -- been 72. Correct? 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : So, with this 21 information, and I guess as the warden, would 22 that suggest to you that they were not actually 23 conducting their counts? 24 MR. : They weren't counting. And 25 then, there is no count slip here for the EFTA00119217 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 inmate that was on dry cell in R&D. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : There should have been a 4 count slip for him over there. So, what should 5 have happened was, the inmate - him - he should 6 have been outcounted in R&D. And then, the 7 R&D, you would have seen one. So, there was a 8 count slip. Whoever is sitting and watching 9 him should have did a count slip on him. And 10 then, whoever his back up was should have done 11 a count slip. 12 MR. : And this is, from my 13 review of everything -- 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : -- this is what I found. 16 I don't want to put my words into 17 mouth, but let me know if this makes sense to 18 you. It says, "Count discrepancy on the August 19 9th, 2019. Per the daily activity report dated 20 August 10th, 2019, and the attachment 21 lieutenant log from August 9th, 2019." So, 22 that's what we are looking at here. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : "The day began with 77 25 inmates assigned to ZA." Or the SHU. "The EFTA00119218 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 5:00 a.m. El institution count, respective ZA 2 SHU count slips, eyes on count shows 77. At 3 8:38 a.m., inmate Reyes is pre-removed from ZA 4 for count, and taken off the lieutenant log. 5 The accurate ZA SHU count moves down to 76. 6 Reyes was removed from the institution and does 7 not - and should not - appear on any counts at 8 this time. 9 At 3:15 p.m., inmate Fernandez was placed 10 on RA dry cell from ZA, which moves the 11 accurate ZA count down to 75 on the lieutenant 12 log. The 4:00 p.m. El shows a total of 76 13 inmates assigned to ZA." With one in attorney 14 conference, which was Epstein. "This indicates 15 that Fernandez was not keyed out of the SHU, 16 and keyed into RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 17 shows 75. Inaccurate. 18 It should have reflected 74 because, 19 although there were 75 inmates assigned to the 20 SHU, Epstein was in attorney conference. There 21 were no inmates assigned to RA on the El 22 institutional count, and there was no count 23 slip for RA, eyes on count." This is where the 24 problem begins. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119219 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 MR. : "At 6:34 p.m., inmate 2 Hemingway is moved to ZA, and brings it down to 3 74. 6:47 p.m., inmate (Phonetic Sp. 4 *02:26:10) is moved from ZA to ES, bringing it 5 down to 73. At 8:21 p.m., Felix (Phonetic Sp. 6 I *02:26:15) and William 4e—moved to ZA, to 7 suicide watch, bringing the accurate count down 8 to 71. At 8:28 p.m., inmate Garcia Pina 9 (Phonetic Sp. *02:26:23) is moved from K into 10 ZA, bringing the accurate count up to 72. 11 The 10:00 p.m. El shows a total of 73 12 inmates assigned to the ZA, but zero inmates 13 assigned to RA. The ZA eyes on count slip 14 shows 73." Oh, this is another one. I don't 15 think we brought this. "One of the counts 16 actually shows 73 plus one." Do we have that 17 in there? 18 MR. : The 10:00 p.m. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. HAYES: I admire your guys' 21 (Indiscernible *02:26:48). 22 MR. : Yeah. You would also -. 23 This is all probably -- 24 MR. : 73 (Indiscernible *02:26:52). 25 MR. -- all Chinese to you. EFTA00119220 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 203 1 MR. : That's how our count slips - 2 3 MR. : -- now, I did foreign 4 language -- 5 MR. HAYES: I don't understand -- 6 MR. : -- should be done. 7 MR. HAYES: -- the fuck are you talking 8 about. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10 MR. : Huh. 11 MR. : This is 12 MR. HAYES: All these initials, and this, 13 and that. 14 MR. : -- but the count -- 15 MR. : So, which is interesting 16 is all of these are, as you notice, crossed 17 off. 18 MR. : -- right. 19 MR. : These two are not crossed 20 off. This one says 9S + 1. This one says 73 + 21 1. The question had been, when did this 22 happen? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : When did they put these 25 plus ones, or why weren't they crossed out? EFTA00119221 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 MR. : But you can't do a This 2 is an inaccurate count slip. Because you are 3 supposed to have the accurate count. You can't 4 do -. If this is 73 + 1, then you should have 5 74 on there. 6 MR. : Or, in this case, it 7 should be 73 minus one because the accurate 8 count was actually 72. 9 MR. : No, but you wouldn't write 10 minus one on there. You would write the actual 11 count on there. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : So -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- either it was 72 or 74. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : But there is no -- 18 MR. HAYES: All right. Guys, I'm going to 19 20 MR. : -- such thing as -- 21 MR. HAYES: -- splash water on my face 22 again. 23 MR. : -- okay. There is no such 24 thing -- 25 MR. HAYES: You guys are getting ready to EFTA00119222 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 kill me. 2 MR. : -- there is no such thing as 3 plus one on the -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- on that. 6 MR. : You're not allowed to 7 ghost count. Correct? 8 MR. : No. No. There should have 9 been an outcount done. So, and this should 10 have been caught, whoever the shift lieutenant 11 was, because they have to, you know, on each 12 shift, conduct a count, and review the count 13 slips. 14 MR. : Does this tell you 15 anything, though, that these were crossed off, 16 and these weren't? 17 MR. : Yeah. Unless, I don't know 18 why -- 19 MR. : Do you think that they 20 were replaced at a later date, or -? 21 MR. : I mean, it gives the 22 appearance. Because at first, I would want to 23 know, why you cross out. Why these -- 24 MR. : They cross out because, 25 as things come in -- EFTA00119223 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- you check it off. 3 MR. : So, that's what I want to 4 know. Like, whose habit is this? Like, okay, 5 I'm looking at -. 6 MR. : So, basically, I think it's 7 standard practice, as a control officer? 8 MR. : No. I mean, I've worked 9 control, and what I would do is, I would do the 10 check off, if I'm doing this. I've never -. 11 And that's people's style. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : That might be their style. 14 So, I just want to know -. 15 MR. : This one is 16 (Phonetic Sp. *02:28:46), I believe. 17 MR. : Huh? 18 MR. 19 MR. : So then -- 20 MR. : This one. 21 MR. : -- then that's how does 22 it. So, my question is then, why isn't this 23 done -- 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : -- like that. I mean, EFTA00119224 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 this, if does it like that, then that's 2 his consistent way of checking it out. But if 3 this is all on that shift -. 4 MR. : But point being, you will 5 agree, this indicates that, from 4:00 p.m. on, 6 the counts were not conducted. Correct? 7 MR. : No. They weren't done 8 right. 9 MR. : The SHU counts? 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : Okay. Then we don't need 12 to really go into too much -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- detail with that. Is 15 this the first that you are seeing this? 16 MR. : Yeah. I haven't seen that 17 before. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. HAYES: This was still on the counts: 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : Now, we're going to move 22 on because the warden agrees that there is not 23 really reason to really dig further, because he 24 agrees this clearly shows that the counts were 25 not conducted in the SHU, from a certain time EFTA00119225 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 on. 2 MR. : Do you want to ask about the 3 Fernandez key? 4 MR. : What about it? 5 MR. : Who's responsible? 6 MR. : So, Fernandez -. Oh, can 7 you just - sorry - would you mind signing, 8 initialing and just dating? If Fernandez was 9 actually removed from the SHU -- 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- and placed onto R, you 12 know, RA dry cell, or R&D dry cell, oh, RA and 13 R&D are interchangeable. Correct? 14 MR. : RA -- 15 MR. : Because RA for - RA, I 16 believe, is what it shows in the count slip, 17 but it stands for the R&D -- 18 MR. : That's the R&D -- 19 MR. : -- right? 20 MR. : -- area. I believe. Yeah. 21 MR. : So, if he's actually 22 moved there around the 3:00 p.m., on August 23 9th, 2019, who would have been responsible for 24 keying him out of the SHU, and placing him into 25 the RA, so that the count would be accurately EFTA00119226 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 reflected? 2 MR. : SHU would have notified 3 control center, that we are moving one over to 4 R&D. 5 MR. : And by that notification, 6 do they also say, can you please key him out, 7 and into? Or is that just automatically done 8 by control? 9 MR. : Well, the notification is 10 made to control that inmate such and such is 11 being placed on dry cell in R&D. And then, you 12 key the inmate to that area. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : So, I'll give you a quick 15 background. It looks like 16 MR. HAYES: Who is that? 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. witnessed this. 19 MR. : (Indiscernible 20 *02:31:02). 21 MR. : Uh-huh. 22 MR. : And he wrote up the shot. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : And he called the lieutenant. 25 He requested the lieutenant. EFTA00119227 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : And it looks like he 3 requested the lieutenant, but he never notified 4 control -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. -- that an inmate was being 7 moved. Right? If - and I'm (Indiscernible 8 *02:31:20). 9 MR. : Well, no, no, no, no. I 10 wouldn't (Indiscernible *02:31:21) -- 11 MR. : He doesn't recall -- 12 MR. : I wouldn't -. 13 MR. : But then, while the counts 14 are going on, there is somebody in R&D. So, 15 whoever is sitting in R&D should know that I 16 need to do a count slip because I have an 17 inmate down there. 18 MR. HAYES: Is this where somebody 19 disappears, that we're looking for? 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : Again, I told you, this 22 was more of an administrative thing. Just to 23 say what does the warden, you know, and the 24 boss of this place, what is his take on these 25 matters? Because as you have gathered, a lot EFTA00119228 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 211 1 of things went wrong this day. So, we need to 2 figure out why these things went wrong. So, 3 this is -. Let me just make sure, before we 4 move on, that I got everything. All right? 5 So, first, before we get into rounds, when a 6 lieutenant conducts a round in the SHU -- 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : -- are they required to 9 conduct a round of the inmates going up and 10 down the different tiers, or does the round 11 consist of just checking in with the officers 12 to make sure everything is okay? 13 MR. : Well, you check the officer 14 to make sure they are all right, and you check 15 the documentation. So, you check, you know, 16 you edit, you would have to review the post 17 orders also. To state what their duties are. 18 I mean, all of us had different, you know, I 19 was a lieutenant, so it was different things 20 you did, but I always checked the 292s, to make 21 sure, you know, the officers checked off, you 22 know, if the person ate or not. Any medical. 23 I would check to see if medical came up. So, 24 it would factor and depend on what shift you 25 went on. You know, the day shift, the inmates EFTA00119229 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 are up, so you're going, you know, you can go 2 around. Evening shift, you can see what's 3 going on. The midnight shift, they're 4 sleeping. But you are definitely checking a 5 30-minute log, to see if the inmates are doing 6 their 30-minute checks. And, you know, just 7 documentation. 8 MR. : Now, as the warden, did 9 you expect your lieutenants, though, to go down 10 range when they were doing their lieutenant 11 visits in the SHU? Their rounds. And this is 12 specifically when they are, like, signing off 13 on the different, like, on, as you can see, 14 this is what I'm going to be showing you. 15 These are round sheets that -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- you sent to Mr. 18 , where it shows the different 19 lieutenants signed on/off that they did their 20 round. 21 MR. : But what does -- 22 MR. : So, what does that -? 23 MR. : -- what the lieutenants are 24 checking for is accuracy of the officer's 25 rounds. EFTA00119230 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : Okay. This is -. 2 MR. : So, what they are checking 3 is, okay, were the 30-minute infrequent checks 4 done? Now, if there is an easy, that they are 5 not being done, you know, so, you know, then it 6 needs to be annotated and said, okay, this is 7 what the issue was. But if they are signing 8 it, they are kind of acknowledging that, you 9 know, that the time that the round will put 10 down, that they were down. 11 MR. : Now, what would be -? 12 This is the round, it looks like for 8/8. Can 13 you think of a reason why these wouldn't be 14 done? But they would be signed off on right 15 here? 16 MR. : Let me see. So, if a 17 lieutenant made rounds and saw this thing was 18 empty like this, then it is a problem. 19 MR. : Because you have this 20 8/8. And then, there is zero rounds showing 21 that they were conducted, but this lieutenant 22 signed it. 23 MR. : That's a problem. 24 MR. : The same thing. We go, 25 this whole thing. So, this whole shift looks EFTA00119231 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 like they didn't even sign it until here. On 2 8/8. 3 MR. : Wait. Did you print these 4 off the logbook, or -? 5 MR. : This is what you sent to 6 Mr. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : On Saturday, August 10th, 9 at 6:21 p.m. 10 MR. : Now, the only other thing I 11 can think of, and when I had gathered 12 something, I might have said, because the 13 checks are done at, like -. No, these are 30- 14 minute checks, so they -- 15 MR. : This is also -- 16 MR. : -- you know, these are -- 17 MR. : -- this is the day, this 18 is two days before Epstein was found. 19 MR. : -- no, this is No. I 20 was thinking of the log. The log did it 21 electronic. But this, no. This -- 22 MR. : We have the electronic 23 version. 24 MR. : -- yeah. This is 25 MR. : Which one? EFTA00119232 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 MR. : -- no, this is -. That 2 means -- 3 MR. : So, this is just wrong? 4 MR. -- yeah. This is wrong. 5 MR. : Should have this 6 lieutenant signed that? 7 MR. : No. He should have signed 8 it. They should have put something -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. listed as some 11 discrepancy, why the checks weren't done. 12 MR. : And on these, whereas it 13 looks like, this lieutenant is signing, it 14 looks like probably because these are done. Do 15 you think that is the reason why this 16 individual hadn't signed these? Because these 17 weren't correct? 18 MR. : Probably. I can't speculate 19 on that. 20 MR. : Because it says -- 21 MR. : I can't. 22 MR. : -- reviewed by morning 23 watch lieutenant. Where they do that, well, 24 that lieutenant does start signing it here, 25 where they are now filled out. EFTA00119233 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : For the same date. 3 MR. : So, this looks - hey, I 4 don't know who it was - but this looks 5 (Indiscernible *02:36:10) worked it. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Let me see how those 30- 8 minute. That's the same one. I don't know who 9 it was. Who it was. 10 MR. : Okay. So, that was 11 (Indiscernible *02:36:19). Certainly go look, 12 but whomever it was during those shift. And 13 then, we get into, it looks like, 14 (Indiscernible *02:36:30) still. And these. 15 Here is the 8/9. Where -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- it's signed off, 18 signed off, until 2:00 p.m. 19 MR. : That's a problem. 20 MR. : After that, no sign off. 21 Same thing. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : That's just when I think 24 left his shift, or somewhere around 25 that time. So -. EFTA00119234 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 MR. HAYES: The point of this, if I may 2 ask, is we got a miscount, right? 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : We're not -- 5 MR. HAYES: This is -- 6 MR. : -- we've moved on from 7 counts. Now we're on rounds. 8 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, counts. The 9 significance of the counts is, at some point, 10 Reyes disappears? 11 MR. : No. The significance of 12 the counts is that, if inmates - or if the 13 staff members aren't conducting counts and 14 counts are to the accountability of the 15 inmates, to make sure everybody is there. 16 MR. HAYES: Right. 17 MR. : Rounds -- 18 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- are basically to make 20 sure everyone is alive and breathing. Is that 21 correct, sir? 22 MR. : You are right. Counts are 23 accountability, and then, the 30-minute checks 24 are basically safety checks. 25 MR. : So, the point of these EFTA00119235 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 questioning is, it looks like at - what we just 2 finished was counts - we have shown that the 3 staff members were not conducting their counts. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. HAYES: Right. Because that is why 6 you have 72 when it should be -- 7 MR. : Now we are doing rounds. 8 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *02:37:41). 9 MR. : To find out were the 10 staff members conducting their rounds. 11 MR. HAYES: Got it. 12 MR. : And again, we have, in 13 this case, a very high-profile inmate that was 14 deceased. Became deceased at some point. 15 MR. HAYES: And they think -- 16 MR. : And -- 17 MR. HAYES: -- plus it's whether they 18 MR. : -- yeah, it -- 19 MR. HAYES: -- noticed on their rounds 20 that the guy was deceased. 21 MR. : -- if they were 22 conducting 23 MR. HAYES: Or -. 24 MR. : -- rounds at all. And if 25 they were conducting rounds, would that be - EFTA00119236 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 and this is a question to you, like, we'll ask 2 you now, since I'm making that explanation - if 3 they were conducting their rounds, would that 4 be a way to at least try to help ensure that 5 inmates such as Epstein were alive and well? I 6 know it's not going to prevent it in every 7 case, but is that part of the reason, to make 8 sure that, if they are conducting a round, you 9 are checking to see if they are alive, and they 10 are breathing. 11 MR. : It is true, but I mean, and 12 because I mean, an inmate can, you know, you 13 can do your 30-minute rounds, and if they want 14 to do their harm to themselves, they are going 15 to do it. 16 MR. : Right. And that goes 17 into play with why -- 18 MR. HAYES: They just 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. HAYES: -- they just look, they do 21 rounds by looking in their cell. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. HAYES: So, if you want to 24 MR. : To check. 25 MR. HAYES: -- do harm, you just wait EFTA00119237 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 until they go passed your cell. 2 MR. : Right. And then, you kind 3 of figure out the timing of the route. But the 4 fact remains, if you are not showing on the 5 form that you did your rounds, then that's, 6 that's a problem. 7 MR. : So, when you are looking 8 at these rounds that you sent Mr. , are 9 you finding problems because they are not 10 completed correctly? You know, what we just 11 looked through. In fact, you know, these are 12 August 10th. (Indiscernible *02:39:09), 13 they're not signed off. There's blocks that 14 are not filled in. 15 MR. : Yeah. Looking at them now? 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : What is the question? 18 MR. : Well, does it show you 19 that, at least this paperwork doesn't appear to 20 be filled out correctly? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : And that is for the 8th, 23 as well? 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Okay. So, that was EFTA00119238 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. HAYES: And that is something, it was 2 your job to pass that on to 3 MR. : No. He requested -- 4 MR. : No, no, no, no. 5 MR. : -- the information. 6 MR. : This is just to show that 7 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : -- what the round sheets 10 that the warden sent to the regional director 11 were these rounds. So, it's just a matter of, 12 hey, do you know if these rounds were -? It 13 has nothing to do with his, you know, if he did 14 it right or not. It's, what his staff members 15 16 MR. HAYES: Right. 17 MR. : -- doing it right. 18 MR. HAYES: Right. 19 MR. : And who was responsible 20 to make sure the round sheets are done 21 correctly? 22 MR. : Well, the staff working up 23 there are responsible. And then, the 24 supervisor is supposed to ensure that they are 25 doing it. EFTA00119239 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 222 1 MR. : And what is this? This 2 was also attached. What is that right there, 3 that we are looking at? 4 MR. : Hmm. 5 MR. : TruScope logs? 6 MR. : Yeah. This looks like 7 TruScope. This looks like the log. And so, 8 like, if they are doing what areas they search. 9 MR. : And these are searches? 10 MR. : Yeah. These looks like 11 searches. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Let me see that. Search. 14 Did the areas. Visiting. Strip room. 15 Recreation area. Yeah. These are -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- these are search areas. 18 MR. : Does it show anywhere in 19 there that there was any cells that were 20 searched, or are they just all, like, common 21 areas? 22 MR. : No. They searched it. Look 23 how -. What is this? Nine South. SHU. 24 Completed all. These are, these looks like 25 everything they have done in there. The fire EFTA00119240 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 223 1 and safety checks. This is - it looks like the 2 log. 3 MR. : Okay. So, this goes with 4 you. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : So, all to this. This is 7 something else that we asked for the BOP to 8 print out for us, and this one specifically one 9 we asked. When you send us the cell searches 10 that were conducted on 8/9/2019 -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : -- we got back one. By 13 Mr. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : It say that it was 16 conducted at 12:36 p.m. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : On 8/9/2019. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Is that a problem? That 21 only one cell search was conducted in the SHU? 22 According to, at least according to TruScope. 23 MR. : Because I believe the post 24 orders state it is supposed to be - and don't 25 quote me on it -- EFTA00119241 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- you have to look at the 3 post orders - but they state, I think five a 4 shift. A minimum of five. 5 MR. : It's five, I believe -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- for the night watch. 8 The day watch, I believe, is more. And the 9 morning -- 10 MR. HAYES: They're supposed to do five -- 11 MR. : -- watch is just 12 (Indiscernible *02:41:59). 13 MR. HAYES: -- cell searches? 14 MR. : No, no. Each shift is a 15 minimum of five. 16 MR. : I don't think -- 17 MR. : And then -- 18 MR. : -- that includes that 19 morning watch, though 20 MR. the morning watch is 21 MR. -- because there's -- 22 MR. : -- area. 23 MR. : -- right. 24 MR. : Yeah. You are 25 MR. : Common areas. EFTA00119242 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 MR. : -- picking the common area. 2 MR. HAYES: So, let me get this clear. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: You are supposed to do five 5 cell shifts, five cell searches per shift? 6 MR. : Yes. That is -. 7 MR. HAYES: All right. And in this case, 8 there is only an indication that they did one? 9 MR. : One. Right? 10 MR. : One the whole day. 11 MR. : One the day whole. 12 MR. : Not per shift. The whole 13 day. 14 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, whose job is it 15 MR. : No. 16 MR. HAYES: -- to say why aren't you doing 17 those? I was going to use the F word. Why 18 aren't you doing all the cell shifts? 19 MR. : Well, this is, this is my 20 question to the warden is, is that a problem, 21 that there was only one logged into TruScope? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. It is a problem. 23 MR. : Does that indicate that 24 the cells were not being searched, to you? Or 25 that they just weren't logging them in? EFTA00119243 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And again, whoever was 226 2 working that day, you're going to have to ask 3 them. I mean -- 4 MR. : And we have. 5 MR. looking at 6 MR. : And it was just 7 MR. looking on paper, I mean, 8 it shows you didn't, you didn't conduct your 9 searches. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : I mean, now, there might 12 have been a reason where the person said, okay, 13 the computers were down or whatever, but it is 14 highly unlikely for -. 15 MR. HAYES: So, but you are literally 16 going into a cell and search it? Does that 17 mean -- 18 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: -- you throw over the 20 mattresses, the whole thing? 21 MR. : No. You pull them out. You 22 look at -- 23 MR. HAYES: Okay. 24 MR. : -- look and check the 25 lockers. You check under their stuff. You EFTA00119244 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 know, and you typically do it, like on certain 2 days when the guys are going out to take a 3 shower, you might go out and do that. 4 MR. : So, with your suggestion 5 that computers could be down and things like 6 that, as you can see from the email attachment 7 that you said, there are certainly plenty of 8 searches that were entered in there -- 9 MR. : Oh. 10 MR. : -- but there is only one 11 cell search. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : And so, I would assume, 14 would that indicate that the computers are 15 actually up and running? 16 MR. : Yes. So, this one, this is 17 the same day? 18 MR. : What are you looking -- 19 MR. : That could be (Indiscernible 20 *02:43:42). 21 MR. : -- yeah, this should be 22 8/10, and 8/9 and 8/10. 23 MR. : 8/9 -- 24 MR. : I would think. 25 MR. : reg number. Reg number. EFTA00119245 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 MR. : It shows the dates here. 2 I just can't see them. 3 MR. : Yeah. Change base. Yeah. 4 This is a search one. This is the log. 5 MR. : Okay. So, problematic, 6 in your opinion? 7 MR. : Yes. It is. 8 MR. : All right. So, not only 9 searching them, but is it equally as important 10 to actually log it in, as well, so that we know 11 whether things are being searched? 12 MR. : Yes. You should log it. 13 MR. : All right. Now, this, 14 this comes to the kind of question on this. 15 When Epstein was found, are you aware that he 16 was in a cell that didn't coincide with what 17 his inmate history quarters, and what the BOP 18 database said, where he should have been? He 19 was in the wrong cell. 20 MR. : I did hear, afterwards, that 21 there were some issues with Sentry and the way 22 they keyed into the cells. 23 MR. : All right. And what did 24 you hear? 25 MR. : I think, just that the cell, EFTA00119246 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 the way the inmates were being keyed in was 2 off, it didn't match this cell. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : That. 5 MR. : So, yeah, his assigned 6 cell within the BOP database was not where he 7 was located 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- in person. At least 10 when he was found on August 10th, 2019. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that is 13 - I should shut up, right? 14 MR. : No, no. I'm good. 15 MR. : Go ahead. 16 MR. HAYES: Now, is that something that 17 goes on up to you? Is that your responsibility 18 to see where guys are being celled? 19 MR. : No. But I mean -- 20 MR. : Yeah. Most of my 21 questions to him isn't that -- 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : -- it's his 24 responsibility, it's whose responsibility was 25 it? EFTA00119247 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. Got it. 2 MR. : And then -. 3 MR. : So, who should have made 4 sure that Epstein's cell, in the BOP database, 5 matched where he was physically located? 6 Because obviously, people get a hold of the 7 information that he wasn't in his assigned 8 cell. You know, that is just more reason to 9 people not trusting the government. So, we are 10 just trying to figure out -. 11 MR. : Well, and this is not a 12 problem limited to one person. It is a problem 13 - and I think it is a Bureau-wide problem, as 14 far as specific keying in cells. I don't think 15 this was done in a malicious -. 16 MR. : So, what happened here, 17 our investigation shows is that when he came 18 back from -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- from suicide, or 21 psychological observation, he was placed into 22 the cell that it shows on July 30th, on this 23 form. However, because his - is it CPAP 24 (Phonetic Sp. *02:46:24)? 25 MR. : CPAP. EFTA00119248 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 MR. : His CPAP machine, the 2 cord didn't reach the plug. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : So, they had to move him 5 to a different cell. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So, from July 30th to 8 August 10th, he was in the incorrectly assigned 9 cell. No one ever caught that. No one ever, 10 you know, and my thought being is, well, if 11 they are doing their cell searches -- 12 MR. : Oh, I thought you meant -- 13 MR. : -- wouldn't -. 14 MR. : -- the cell didn't match up 15 with -- 16 MR. : No, no, they -- 17 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 18 *02:46:52). 19 MR. : -- they logged him into 20 the cell that he was placed in, coming out of 21 psychological observation. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : On the 30th. Then, they 24 physically moved him to a different cell. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119249 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 MR. : On the 30th. Because his 2 CPAP machine wasn't, the cord didn't reach. 3 MR. HAYES: What is a CPAP machine? 4 MR. : It's the snore -. It's 5 to help you breathe when you are sleeping. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: And he needed a CPAP machine? 8 MR. : Yes, sir. 9 MR. : For the snoring. 10 MR. : So -- 11 MR. HAYES: Don't call me sir. Please. 12 I'm old. All right? You're reminding me. 13 MR. : And so, no one ever went 14 back into the system from, all the way from the 15 30th up to August 10th, and made that 16 correction. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Who was responsible for 19 that? 20 MR. : So, whoever made the cell 21 change should have contacted control center. 22 MR. : And is the control center 23 that actually made the change, not the 24 individuals in SHU, or the SHU lieutenant? 25 MR. : No. The -- EFTA00119250 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 233 1 MR. : Because my understanding 2 it would have been the SHU lieutenant or the 3 OIC. 4 MR. : Bed changes? 5 MR. : To verify their cellmates 6 where were the Wherever the BOP databases 7 said they are. 8 MR. : So, you have to, you would 9 have to call control center to make that 10 change. 11 MR. : Okay. So, who should 12 have called the control center? 13 MR. : Whoever made the change in 14 Sentry. Because I - and then, don't quote me 15 if I'm wrong - because I don't believe SHU 16 staff have control over keying where an inmate 17 is in. 18 MR. : Yeah. No. I thought the 19 OIC might, or the that the SHU -- 20 MR. : No, because 21 MR. : -- lieutenant would. 22 MR. : -- in that case, beds would 23 be really messed up. 24 MR. : Right, right, right. 25 MR. : So, the control center is a EFTA00119251 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 centralized area. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, a call should have been 4 made down to control, saying, hey, this is 5 where he's being keyed to, and this is what -. 6 MR. : And who should have made 7 that call? 8 MR. : Whoever made the change. 9 Whoever switched him. 10 MR. : And my understanding is 11 that the OIC and the SHU lieutenant were 12 supposed to review cell assignments, to make 13 sure inmates were in their assigned cells, at 14 least on a periodical basis. Is that correct? 15 MR. : Yeah. You do a, what we 16 call a bed book check, to make sure. Because 17 your board, you know, when you are in the unit, 18 you have a board up there, and you just match 19 where everyone is at. 20 MR. : And how often should that 21 happen? 22 MR. : There is no set policy, but 23 as a good practice, you know, you kind of want 24 to check what your open cells are, where, you 25 know, where individuals are. And should it EFTA00119252 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 also be checked if they were doing cell 2 searches? Would that be caught, if they were 3 doing searches? 4 MR. : Well, if you are doing 5 cell search, all you are going to do is put 6 down the cell number, and the individual in it. 7 It wouldn't -. You wouldn't necessarily be 8 able to find out if it is the correct room. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And the correct bed in 11 Sentry. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. : But, you know -. 14 MR. : So, in this instance, 15 then, and I'll shut up so I can actually let 16 you answer, who -- 17 MR. HAYES: I have the same problem. 18 MR. -- who is it that should 19 have notified control center to make this 20 change? It sounds like you said whoever 21 physically moved him, at the time? 22 MR. : So, what happens is, whoever 23 physically moved him should have said, okay, 24 this is where, you know, you are, this is where 25 we are moving him. And then, you let the - EFTA00119253 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 typically - the OIC know, and then, they will 2 call down to control center. 3 MR. : And if that didn't 4 MR. HAYES: Can I speak to my client for a 5 second? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Do you want me -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- do you want me to push 12 pause? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. HAYES: Yeah, no. I'll take him to 15 the other -. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Sure. Okay. It's 4:46 18 p.m., and this is Senior Special Agent 19 , and I'm pushing pause. 20 (whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 21 off the record and back on the record). 22 MR. : The recorder is back on. 23 It is 4:53 p.m., after a short break. And I 24 remind you, sir, you are still under oath. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119254 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : All right. So, we 2 stopped with the, we were talking about who was 3 responsible for making sure Mr. Epstein was 4 logged into the correct cell within the 5 MR. : Question. 6 MR. : -- BOP database system. 7 MR. : Were there other cells that 8 were wrong? 9 MR. : Do you know that, 10 MR. : Not We don't know if -. 11 This, we know only because we checked this. 12 MR. : Okay. So, I mean, 13 everything else could have been right, and that 14 could have been a -- 15 MR. : No. Well, we found out, 16 this is the reason was because, again, he was 17 placed into that cell, and then moved because 18 of the CPAP machine. 19 MR. : No. I was -- 20 MR. : Well, our question was 21 MR. : -- you know, wondering if it 22 is a systematic, or an individual problem. 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : That's why I was just 25 curious. EFTA00119255 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 MR. : Yeah. And that's 2 something that we should probably -. 3 MR. HAYES: Well, and my question is, does 4 that have any effect on count? I mean, they 5 still should be able to look in the cells if 6 there was a (Indiscernible *02:51:28). 7 MR. : Well, when -- 8 MR. : Well, the problem comes 9 in, again, I think is the credibility of, hey, 10 now we have Epstein, who was found in a cell, 11 and it's not his assigned cell. So, that just, 12 you know -- 13 MR. HAYES: But I'm saying -- 14 MR. : -- the media says all of 15 these things that went wrong. 16 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 17 MR. : One being -- 18 MR. HAYES: I've had that. 19 MR. : -- wait, he's not even in 20 the right cell. Well, how did that happen, and 21 who was responsible? 22 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, so, my question 23 is, does it make any difference? I mean, if 24 they are supposed to do the count, the count is 25 you look in the cell, and see -- EFTA00119256 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. HAYES: -- whether there's a guy in 3 there. Well, whatever number he's in, or he's 4 not in, he's still in his cell. 5 MR. : No. Correct. 6 MR. HAYES: You know? 7 MR. : But because we are doing 8 this deep dive review -- 9 MR. HAYES: Okay. I gotcha. 10 MR. : -- it's showing these 11 different, you know -- 12 MR. HAYES: Got it. Okay. 13 MR. : -- and again, this is, 14 this is one of those things -- 15 MR. HAYES: You're just being extra 16 careful. Yeah. It's (Indiscernible 17 *02:52:14). 18 MR. : -- and not like 19 (Indiscernible *02:52:15). Yeah. We just have 20 to, we have to address the fact that -- 21 MR. HAYES: He wasn't in the right cell. 22 MR. : -- Mr. Epstein wasn't in 23 the cell that he was assigned to. 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. I mean, it's not just 25 that. Someone (Indiscernible *02:52:22) that EFTA00119257 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 he said, oh, he doesn't have a roommate, and, 2 you know, by the way, we also counted the wrong 3 number of prisoners. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. HAYES: That's a lot of mistakes. 6 MR. : Right. And we haven't 7 even gotten involved. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : As I'm sure you know. 10 But -- 11 MR. HAYES: Right. 12 MR. : -- so, after the person 13 who moved him didn't contact and have this 14 changed, how would have, then, how would we, 15 then, how would have anyone found out that he 16 was in the wrong cell? What processes are in 17 place to ensure that where they are matches up 18 with the actual database? 19 MR. : Well, I guess if they were 20 doing -- 21 MR. : You said bed book counts? 22 MR. : -- yeah. Usually, you could 23 do, you do your bed book counts, to ensure, you 24 know, that every inmate is in the cell that 25 they are supposed to be. When you are updating EFTA00119258 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 your accountability board, you would look and 2 see, okay, you got him here, where is he at? 3 And then, match it up with, you know, with 4 Sentry. 5 MR. : And who would be doing 6 those things? 7 MR. : The staff working up there 8 in SHU. 9 MR. : Is the lieutenant, the 10 SHU lieutenant, at all involved, as far as you 11 know, in making sure that this is all accurate? 12 MR. : Well, he was spearheading it 13 to make sure everything was 14 MR. HAYES: He was the supervisor. 15 MR. : -- was right. Yeah. He was 16 the supervisor. But going in and saying, okay, 17 let's, did this happen? Have we done this? 18 And have we done that? 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. HAYES: And -. Okay. Just to make me 21 clear, somebody dropped the ball as to whether 22 or not he should have a, he had a roommate. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. And somebody dropped 25 the ball as to whether he was in the right EFTA00119259 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 cell. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. And then, somebody 4 would have dropped the ball as to either, 5 dropped the ball or they maliciously didn't 6 find out that he wasn't on the count. They had 7 said we did a count, but they didn't notice 8 that, or didn't - that he wasn't breathing, you 9 know what I mean? 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. HAYES: Okay. That starts to be a 12 problem. 13 MR. : So, just pointed 14 out to me. On the after-action review -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- they did review this. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : And it says that, 19 according to their review 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- this is not my review. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : Or review. 24 "Significant discrepancies exist within Sentry 25 regarding cell quarters assignments." QRT. EFTA00119260 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 QTR. "Although it is well documented, inmate 2 Epstein was housed with two other inmates 3 during his assignment in the SHU. Sentry does 4 not reflect this information accurately. 5 Inmate Epstein was found within cell 220, that 6 Sentry never reflects him being housed within 7 that cell at any time." But to answer your 8 question, the first sentence says that there is 9 significant -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- discrepancies. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : The way that I read that 14 is, overall, whether they are referring to 15 specifically Epstein -- 16 MR. : Epstein. 17 MR. : -- that, I am not able to 18 determine -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- based upon that 21 sentence, but it does sound like, overall, that 22 they had some discrepancies. So, Lieutenant 23 would have supervised it, but it's really 24 the staff that would be responsible for doing 25 these bed book counts, and making sure EFTA00119261 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 1 assignments are -- 2 MR. : Yeah. He did it right there 3 4 MR. : -- the inmates are in 5 their assigned -? 6 MR. : -- and then, whoever is 7 moving an inmate from a cell to a cell, you 8 make the notification. 9 MR. : And is it surprising to 10 you that almost two weeks later, that wasn't 11 caught? 12 MR. : At two weeks later from 13 where? 14 MR. : From -. He was placed 15 into the cell on July 30th, 2019. He's found 16 August 10th, 2019. That entire time, it was 17 never caught that he was not -- 18 MR. : In the right cell. 19 MR. : -- locked in the right 20 cell. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Is that a significant 23 amount of time that went by without catching 24 that? 25 MR. : Without catching it. It is. EFTA00119262 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 MR. : Now, is that, you know, 2 all staff that was in there, or is it, like, 3 really -? 4 MR. : And again, and you probably 5 have to speak to the captain who was 6 responsible for doing the checks, and doing the 7 count. 8 MR. : So, would the captain 9 have some responsibility on this, too? 10 MR. : Well, did the captain is in 11 charge of correctional services. So, that is 12 the unit he is over. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, he has overall 15 responsibility to make sure, you know, in 16 conjunction with the lieutenant, that the unit 17 is running the way it is supposed to run. 18 MR. : And what should have the 19 captain done in order to make sure that that 20 was accurate? 21 MR. : Well, now, there is 22 different ways of finding out if stuff is 23 accurate. Like, you have the perpetual audit 24 system. Where they are responsible - the 25 lieutenants - are responsible to conduct EFTA00119263 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 perpetual audits. So, you can find out through 2 those, when you do it. And they are usually 3 quarterly. But if there is discrepancies and 4 things are going on in that department of 5 correctional services, we have what we call 6 perpetual audits, which he maintained the 7 records of, and that is another checks and 8 balance where you would find out if something 9 is wrong. 10 MR. : And how often are those 11 done? 12 MR. : Those are done quarterly. 13 MR. : Quarterly? 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : All right. So, the fact 16 that this is, we are talking about, like, ten 17 or 11 days, there is a good chance that they 18 weren't done during that time period? Or do 19 you know when they would be done? Are they 20 done, like, on a certain date? 21 MR. : What, the quarterly? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : It's - and I don't know when 24 the dates of the quarter starts - but that is 25 to your checks and balance. You know -- EFTA00119264 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : -- you do your perpetual 3 audits, and then you catch it, and say, oh, 4 wow. We did an audit. And this is wrong. And 5 then, you come up with the corrective action to 6 fix it. 7 MR. : So, that's how the 8 captain could have determined, I guess 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : -- but how, in those -- 11 MR. : The captain would find out. 12 MR. : -- ten or 11 days, how 13 would have that been caught? 14 MR. : Again, you would have to see 15 your, your inmate accountability board. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : You know, are you matching 18 Sentry, if you are pulling off Sentry and 19 matching it with what is on the board. 20 MR. : But - and I apologize 21 that I'm beating -- 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : -- a dead horse here, 24 but, like, who does that? 25 MR. : Again, I don't know who, you EFTA00119265 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 know, who the lieutenant assigned it to, who 2 the OIC. You know, everybody has different 3 duties, and -- 4 MR. : So, it is not like -- 5 MR. different ways that work. 6 MR. : -- not like morning watch 7 does this, or it's just based upon what passed 8 down from lieutenant to the OIC -- 9 MR. : Right. Like, what -- 10 MR. : -- to whoever. 11 MR. no, but basically, when 12 you decide to do it. You know, I mean, I can't 13 see, on the midnight shift, you are doing an 14 accountability check like that, because the 15 guys are sleeping, and, you know, you are 16 looking for a living, breathing body, but you 17 can't physically see them. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : You know, so, what shift was 20 picked to check and say, okay, let's make sure 21 our cell, the accountability in the cell. So, 22 I can't -- 23 MR. : You can't really answer 24 the question. 25 MR. : I can't really speak -. EFTA00119266 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 MR. : Sure. That's fine. 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : All right. Let's get 4 this stuff out of your way. If you don't mind, 5 this -- 6 MR. HAYES: Am I right that we are getting 7 close to the bottom of the pile? 8 MR. : We are. We are getting 9 close. 10 MR. HAYES: Because Jesus Christ, I can't 11 take this. L-O-L. (Indiscernible *02:58:29). 12 MR. : We are (Indiscernible 13 *02:58:31) with this. 14 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : So, this is the email 17 with all the rounds, and the SHU assignment. 18 And these were separate. 19 MR. HAYES: Now, let me ask the question 20 (Indiscernible *02:58:48) the supervisors. 21 Your job is the prison. It's your job to look 22 down into the prison, as far as these counts 23 and, you know, accountability boards, and so 24 forth. 25 MR. : No. I mean, that is what EFTA00119267 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 250 1 you have a captain for and a lieutenant for. 2 (Indiscernible *02:59:06). You know? 3 MR. HAYES: Okay. 4 MR. : And then, we touched on 5 this before, but this is an email that the 6 captain sent to you. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Regarding the lieutenant 9 rounds on 8/9 to 8/10. He sent them, he sent 10 this email on August 11th, 2019. He said, 11 "Warden, Warden, here are the lieutenant rounds 12 for 8/9 to 8/10. Below are the workstations 13 logged on to complete rounds." 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : But again, for you, a 16 lieutenant round, and I don't know if we ever 17 came to that conclusion, or that we may have 18 got off topic on that. But a lieutenant round 19 is used primarily to check in, and it's not 20 necessarily to go down the different ranges? 21 MR. : On the midnight shift. So, 22 they typically not, you know, unless they have 23 an issue, but like you said, you as a 24 lieutenant can walk - should walk - around and 25 see. Now, the midnight shift is hard, but the EFTA00119268 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 other shifts, you, you know, walk around, see 2 what's going on. 3 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : All right. So, should 5 they, though, be walking down the ranges on 6 both the morning, or the day watch and the 7 night watch? Evening watch. 8 MR. : This is what I will say. 9 You probably got to look at the post orders and 10 see -- 11 MR. : Yeah. The post orders 12 MR. : -- the post orders. 13 MR. : -- aren't clear with 14 that. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : We haven't -- 17 MR. : So, it's not -. 18 MR. : -- we haven't been able 19 to -- 20 MR. : It's not -- 21 MR. : -- specifically 22 determine. 23 MR. : -- that's what I mean, it's 24 not a requirement. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00119269 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r 1 MR. : You know, for the 2 (Indiscernible *03:00:26), they are in there, 3 making rounds, checking the books, to see if 4 you got a problem on the range. You would call 5 that. But most lieutenants do, you know, just 6 walk the ranges. Just to see what is going on. 7 MR. : Because most lieutenants 8 that we talked to -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- said that they were 11 absolutely required to do -- 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- a round, just like a 14 SHU staff member -- 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : -- was to do a round. 17 Some lieutenants -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- specifically, 20 lieutenants that worked that day -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- said, nope, there's no 23 requirement to do that. 24 MR. : But -- 25 MR. : So, that's where I'm, as EFTA00119270 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 the warden -- 2 MR. : Well -- 3 MR. : -- who is right? 4 MR. : No. The expectation is, 5 like you hit any unit, you make your rounds 6 within the unit. The SHU unit is no different. 7 That you say, hey, I'm going to go in there, 8 make sure everything is, you know, check on the 9 inmates. And make sure they are fine. But if 10 we are talking about the post orders, were they 11 required to? The post, you know, the post 12 orders, I don't believe had the requirement 13 that they have to, you know 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- physically go in the 16 (Indiscernible *03:01:24). 17 MR. : So, does that - if I 18 understand you correctly - the expectation was 19 that they conduct a round, just like a SHU 20 staff member, but there is no requirement to do 21 so? 22 MR. : Yeah. You should be walking 23 around. 24 MR. : All right. 25 MR. : To see if everything -. EFTA00119271 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 254 1 MR. : But it's not like you 2 told them, you gave them a directive, make sure 3 you are doing this. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : So, there is no -- 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : -- so, if someone wasn't 8 doing it, it's not like something they would be 9 disciplined for? 10 MR. : See, that's hard. I mean, 11 to say you would discipline. There is a 12 difference between what is written down, and 13 what you need to be doing. I mean, if you are 14 coming in, and I enter there as a supervisor, 15 want to see what's going around the unit. I 16 might ask the officer, all right, do we have 17 any problems. The inmates, when you come on, 18 hey, they know the lieutenants on, hey, 19 lieutenant, I need to talk to you. So, you are 20 going down the ranges. You know, so, when you 21 are going down the range, you are seeing 22 something. You get to another range. The 23 inmate said, hey, I need to talk to you. So, 24 it is something you should be doing as part of 25 your rounds, and going up into SHU. Just EFTA00119272 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 walking around, to make sure everything is -. 2 MR. : But if you were still the 3 warden of the MCC, and found out that your 4 lieutenants, when they were signing off on 5 doing rounds 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : -- and you found out that 8 they were only checking in with the staff 9 members, and they were not actually walking 10 down the ranges, is that something that you 11 would find problematic? 12 MR. : I would correct it. 13 MR. : And when you say correct 14 it, what do you mean by that? 15 MR. : I would tell, you know, get 16 with the captain, and I would tell the captain 17 they need to be, you know, in inmate grounds, 18 they need to walk the ranges. 19 MR. : So, they should be 20 walking the ranges, then? 21 MR. : Off of the post orders, it's 22 not in there, you know -- 23 MR. : I know. I -- 24 MR. : -- any place saying that you 25 have to do it. But as a supervisor, that like EFTA00119273 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 any unit you walk on, you want to see what is 2 going on in the unit. So, do I want to use the 3 word "sound correctional judgement"? You know, 4 just to see, as a supervisor, what is going on. 5 I mean, you have some people that go above and 6 beyond. And then, do their job, and you have 7 some people that want to do the bareee* 8 minimum. But that is something -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- from a rounds point of 11 view, I would say you need to make those 12 rounds. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. Let me ask you a 14 question. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. HAYES: You do the rounds. Does that 17 mean literally walk up and down this, what we, 18 what I would call the cell block? 19 MR. : Yeah. You walk around the 20 unit. You know, you are interacting with 21 inmates. You are talking to inmates. Same 22 thing with the inmates in SHU. You know, you 23 are walking around. Hey, what's going on? 24 MR. : So, what you are not 25 familiar with is the way the SHU is set up. EFTA00119274 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r - 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : There is different 3 levels, and there is different 4 MR. HAYES: Yeah, I've been to the SHU. 5 MR. : -- hallways. 6 MR. HAYES: Know what I remember about the 7 SHU?r I4t's fucking cold. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Yeah. So, like, if you 10 are just, you can simply go in and go to the 11 officer's station, and check in with the staff 12 and say -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- everything good? You 15 got all your paperwork in order? All your 16 paperwork is actually right here on the desk. 17 Did you find it problematic that they are 18 keeping all of their round sheets on the desk 19 versus on the ranges themselves? 20 MR. : Different places do it 21 different ways. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Some -- 24 MR. : So -. 25 MR. : -- some places have it, they EFTA00119275 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 keep it at the end of the range, and you sign 2 it. Some have it right there, the log, you 3 know, take the logbook and they just sign it. 4 So -. 5 MR. : So, the individuals, the 6 ops lieutenants and activities lieutenant that 7 we spoke to, that worked on August 9th and 8 August 10th -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- a majority of them 11 said, if not all of them, no, no, no, all 12 needed to do was go to that officer's station, 13 check in with my officers, make sure their 14 paperwork is done, and then I left. Every 15 other lieutenant that we talked to said, no. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : When you sign that paper, 18 you are signing it just like you conducted a 19 round, as if the SHU staff conducted a round. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : You had to go down every 22 range -- 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- make sure everything 25 was good to go. You are not just checking on. EFTA00119276 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : So, what we are trying to 3 say is, which one is right? 4 MR. : Well, now, for the ones that 5 are saying that I don't have to go down and 6 check every range, they are going off the post 7 office. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : The ones that are doing 10 their job, they are going around and checking 11 every time. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Making sure the wellbeing of 14 the inmates, and you are checking on the 15 wellbeing of your staff. 16 MR. : All right. So, it kind 17 of sounds like nobody is right, and nobody is 18 wrong? They need to change the post orders? 19 MR. : Well, they would, they would 20 have - should put in -- 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : -- their post orders, but 23 they should be going around, and 24 MR. HAYES: So, they should have a rule 25 MR. : -- the wellness check. EFTA00119277 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 MR. HAYES: that says, you got to go 2 around? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So. 6 MR. : So, no one technically did anything wrong. They should just really do it? 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. • just do it. MR. • : They should. They should : Okay. Fair enough. MR. : The term used was "sound correctional judgment." MR. : Yes. MR. : All right. So, that - again - was that email from to you, with the lieutenant rounds. MR. HAYES: Damn. That pile is a lo- lower. MR. : Unless you want to go right back on it. MR. : Now, this says -- MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm fucking out of here. If you bring that pile back, I'm out of here. Now, I'm going to EFTA00119278 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 give you some of that money back, but I can't 2 take this shit no more. 3 MR. : So, this one says it's 4 from 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : To you. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Who is 9 MR. : He aws a unit manager there 10 for the PCU Unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:23). 11 MR. : Okay. At the MCC? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : It says, subject, "Weekly 14 rounds -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- as requested." 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : So, these are weekly 19 rounds from August 4th, 10, 2019. What is that 20 for? 21 MR. : That was for our witWeed sec 22 unit (Phonetic Sp. *03:06:34). 23 MR. : Oh, okay. 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, you actually had your EFTA00119279 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2, 1 own separate witweed sec unit? 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : So, that is not in SHU? 4 Or is it? 5 MR. : Huh? No. That's not in 6 SHU. That is a separate unit all together. 7 MR. : So, why was this 8 provided? For any reason? 9 MR. : Because I like to I used 10 to like to track who was making their rounds 11 and not making their rounds. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. : So, they had to send it to 14 me every week. 15 MR. : So, was this just 16 coincidental? Nothing to do with Epstein? 17 MR. : Yeah. This had nothing to 18 do with him. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : This was probably what he 21 had to send up that week. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : It was the end of the week. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : So, that's what he sent. EFTA00119280 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 So, that had nothing to do with him. 2 MR. : So, this has nothing to 3 do with Epstein. 4 MR. : No. 5 MR. : All right. I'm not even 6 going to -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- you can keep that over 9 here, so we don't get that confused. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : A14—right. So, this one. 12 As far as this one, it says, from you to Mr. 13 It says SHU rounds. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : What SHU rounds are we 16 looking at here? This is a new document here. 17 MR. : Okay. This is on -. This 18 is eight, for the -- 19 MR. : This is for executive 20 staff -- 21 MR. : -- the week starting at 22 eight -- 23 MR. : or-? 24 MR. : -- this is starting for 8/4 25 rounds. So, this is, these are my rounds that EFTA00119281 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 I'm doing. 2 MR. : Now, is there some kind 3 of a requirement that you conduct rounds? 4 MR. : Yeah. The warden is 5 supposed to go up and go -. 6 MR. : So, you are supposed to 7 conduct rounds in the SHU? 8 MR. : Yeah. About once 9 MR. : Or is this -- 10 MR. a week. Like, you can go 11 up as many times, but, you know, the warden is 12 supposed to be going. 13 MR. : All right. 14 MR. HAYES: Now, that means you are 15 supposed to conduct rounds in the SHU? 16 MR. : Yeah. I go in the SHU. I 17 walk around and do rounds in every area of the 18 institution. So. 19 MR. : And is everyone on here 20 supposed to do a round weekly? Because I have 21 never seen this round sheet until reviewing 22 your emails. 23 MR. : No. This is every Bureau 24 institution has this. This is where you sign 25 into the Special Housing Unit. This is the EFTA00119282 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 log. And this is showing that they made their 2 rounds. So, these are the lieutenants right 3 here, showing that they made their rounds. So, 4 at the end of the week, when they send me the 5 round sheet, and let's say it looked like this, 6 my question would be, okay, did they make 7 rounds, or did they forget to make rounds? 8 MR. : Is this and this the same 9 thing? 10 MR. : For the lieutenants, it 11 would be. 12 MR. : Just the lieutenants? 13 And no one else? 14 MR. : Yeah. No one else. This is 15 computer services. The duty officer has to go 16 up there. 17 MR. : Now, so -- 18 MR. : Right there. 19 MR. : -- this shows that you 20 did two rounds. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : And you are only required 23 to do one. Correct? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : AW programs. EFTA00119283 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 MR. : That, she did it on Friday. 2 MR. : So, the fact that AW 3 operations has nothing in there, is that 4 problematic? 5 MR. : And here is the other thing 6 could have happened. A lot of times, they make 7 the rounds, sometimes they forget to initial 8 and sign it. 9 MR. : All right. 10 MR. : So, what I would do is, I 11 would look at it and say, okay, when I got at 12 the end of the week, what happened? How come 13 you didn't make rounds? 14 MR. : So, all of these blank 15 spaces, were these people supposed to be doing 16 rounds in SHU? 17 MR. : Not everybody is required. 18 They should have been up there, but they are 19 not required. Like, the finance facility -- 20 MR. HAYES: The correctional judgement -- 21 MR. : -- food services. 22 MR. HAYES: -- would be they could go up 23 to that. 24 MR. : But health services has to 25 make rounds. EFTA00119284 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 MR. : You're getting it. 2 MR. : The PA's. 3 MR. HAYES: By the end of the day, man, 4 I'll be ready to go to MCC myself. I hated 5 going to prison. 6 MR. : Psychology. You know? 7 MR. : So, which ones on here 8 that are actually required to conduct rounds? 9 MR. : You have the unit team 10 that's supposed to go up. The lieutenants. 11 MR. : Well, SIS, it doesn't 12 appear that they did any rounds. 13 MR. : That's -. 14 MR. : But I'm assuming they 15 certainly should have. Correct? 16 MR. : SIS should have been up 17 there, to go around. So, and again, I would 18 look at it and see who was on leave. Somebody 19 might have been on leave, not on leave. 20 MR. : And what are - so, when 21 these type of individuals, it looks like more 22 high level such as, I mean, obviously, you are 23 the highest level, what is a warden round look 24 like? Do you all have to walk down the range, 25 or -- EFTA00119285 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 MR. : So, what I -- 2 MR. : -- is that what you do? 3 MR. : -- what I do is, I walk 4 around and I go to every cell, and I talk to 5 the guy, got any issues, any problems? 6 They're, like, no, I'm good. You might have 7 some that say, hey, I'm up here for an 8 investigation. Why am I here? Why am I up 9 here? So, I take my little notes. Okay. 10 Fine. Some of it I can address right there, 11 some of it I can't. But I would typically walk 12 around what we call is the SHU roster. Which, 13 that is the reason why you are up there. Why 14 am I up here? And, you know, a lot of times, 15 you go by it, it says 16 MR. HAYES: It's because you are a fucking 17 mass murderer, that's why you're up here. 18 MR. : -- and, like, you know why 19 you are locked up. And then, they would say, 20 well, how come the investigation is taking so 21 long? And it would depend. If the FBI had it, 22 if it was an OIG investigation. It would 23 depend. So, you know, I would usually tell 24 them, like, you know, it's an outside agency 25 handling. We are in contact with them. And EFTA00119286 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 somebody will come see you. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Some could be up for 4 administrative, like an incident report. 5 MR. : So, you went through and 6 talked to everybody, but were you required to 7 do that, or is it just because you just were a 8 good employee? 9 MR. : I mean, that's what you 10 should be doing. 11 MR. : That's what you should 12 do. But I mean, like you talked about before, 13 well, the post orders don't say that. 14 MR. : Well, I don't have post 15 orders. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean 18 MR. : But you are -. But 19 something does say that you are required to do 20 it once a week? 21 MR. : There's nothing in writing 22 to tell me you have to do it. But just like 23 visit every area, I have to, I visit every area 24 of the institution. You know, make sure I see 25 every employee going there on the off shifts. EFTA00119287 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 I would go on the off shifts, you know, to see 2 the staff, but it's -- 3 MR. HAYES: It's a surprise. In other 4 words, you are not telling them you are coming, 5 you are just going. 6 MR. : Yeah. I'm coming up. I'm 7 making my rounds. I'm sitting, talking to 8 staff. What's your issues? I mean, it's more 9 the issue of them just work. I mean 10 MR. : So, when you say there's 11 nothing in writing, saying that you should do 12 it, or is there something in writing saying 13 these people that didn't do it, that they 14 should have done it? 15 MR. : No. And there could be 16 reasons. Now, they - and this is what I would 17 get the report and look into - like, there are 18 people that make the rounds, they come up to 19 SHU but they forget to sign in. 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : So, when I get the report, 22 would, you know, talk to the captain, that this 23 the entrance log, and say, hey, why didn't such 24 and such make a round? Now, that AW might have 25 been out that week, and I had this one covering EFTA00119288 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 both. So, they came up with the AW. 2 MR. : Now, is there any way to 3 determine, like, these people that, for 4 instance, visited on Friday, what time they 5 visited? Because this is the day that Reyes 6 was gone. So, it says the captain was in there 7 on Friday. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : Should have he noticed 10 that Reyes wasn't there? 11 MR. : Not necessarily. If he 12 didn't go down range. And he could have come 13 up, and remember, we have Ten South that's 14 connected. So, I don't know if he came up 15 there, you know, for an issue for Ten South. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : So, I don't know. And then, 18 him making his rounds, even if he's making his 19 rounds, you are going to have empty cells on 20 the range. 21 MR. : Oh, you will? 22 MR. : Yeah. Well, somebody -- 23 MR. : Even if - 24 MR. : -- somebody could be at 25 medical. Somebody could be on an attorney EFTA00119289 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 visit. 2 MR. : So, it wouldn't -- 3 MR. : So -. 4 MR. : -- it wouldn't caused a 5 red flag, you don't think, if he saw, like, 6 Epstein's cell empty? 7 MR. : Well, if empty cell is 8 empty, the first thing you're saying, he's down 9 on attorney visit. Because the rounds are made 10 during the daytime. 11 MR. : And in that note, would 12 they say, though, because it says , and it looks like was there, too -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- should have those two 16 people, if they actually did a round, say 17 Epstein is down there, but where is Reyes? 18 MR. : I mean, they could have. i 19 mean, but Reyes could have been in the shower. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : You know? I mean -- 22 MR. : But it wouldn't be 23 something that would be normally asked? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : It was, like, oh -- EFTA00119290 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 MR. : Hmm-mm. 2 MR. : -- Epstein, high-profile 3 guy, where is his cellmate? That wouldn't be - 4 5 MR. : No. I mean -- 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : -- you're just saying, okay, 8 Epstein is downstairs, his, you know, or maybe 9 his cellmate was in, in, in attorney visit, it 10 could have been on a shower day. He could have 11 been in rec. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : I mean 14 MR. : So, you are more 15 concerned about the people that are there, as 16 opposed to who weren't there, it sounds like 17 that? To check in with them. 18 MR. : That, I mean, you want to 19 see, making sure you are around, making rounds, 20 talking to everyone. So, I don't know what, 21 you know, what the thought process is, or, you 22 know, if somebody was in the shower or not. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : So. 25 MR. : Sure. No. And I'm not EFTA00119291 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2- 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 trying -- MR. MR. that. : Mm-hmm. : -- to get you to say MR. HAYES: How many days a week can you take a shower when you're in -? MR. : The entire of three times. Monday. Typically, it's Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. MR. : And what about this one? This one is from to you. Weekly rounds on August 12th, 2019. Is this MR. : The PCU. MR. : -- is this -? So, this is the same thing? MR. : That's the PCU unit. WitWood sec unit. MR. : The witeed sec unit. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : All right. So, this might be the exact same thing as -. Oh, this is what I did (Indiscernible *03:14:50). Sorry. All right. That sounds good. Do you mind just initialing and dating that? MR. HAYES: Now, we are getting close to EFTA00119292 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 the end. 2 MR. : Hmm. 3 MR. you had two 4 follow up questions before we move on. Why 5 don't you ask those? 6 MR. : If if the counts and the 7 rounds were done 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. as they were supposed to 10 be done, let's say in the afternoon, by the SHU 11 C.O.s, would they have caught the fact that 12 Epstein's cell was empty, and inmate Reyes was 13 actually not where he was supposed to be? In 14 terms of that, if he was assigned, if Epstein 15 was required to have a cellmate, and Reyes was 16 transferred, would they have caught onto the 17 fact that Epstein needed a cellmate? 18 MR. : I don't understand what 19 MR. : Let's say Reyes was 20 transferred, right? 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : If the counts and the rounds 23 were done, in the afternoon, the 4:00 p.m. 24 count, the rounds in between, if they were 25 done, would the SHU C.O.s have caught on to the EFTA00119293 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 fact that Reyes was missing from the cell? 2 MR. : But they already knew that. 3 MR. : If the word of mouth 4 MR. : So, the claim is 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. made up that 7 stuff in the memo. And says 8 never told me that. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : That they say that's 11 bullshit, and he's lying. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : The people that he said 14 were present say the same thing. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : He didn't say that. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : So, point being is, well, 19 if didn't pass that information on, if 20 they were actually conducting their rounds, 21 should they have noticed that he wasn't there? 22 MR. : Yeah. If they knew that he 23 didn't -. If they knew, they knew that - 24 what's his name? - Epstein wasn't supposed to 25 have a cellmate. So, if you see his cell on EFTA00119294 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 277 1 there, that I guess, and on the outside of the 2 cell, they would have his name and the other 3 person. Then you should be saying, okay, where 4 is the cellmate? We know he's not in the 5 attorney room. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. 7 MR. : So. 8 MR. HAYES: I got it. 9 MR. : So, you know he's down in 10 the attorney room. So, you would have said, 11 okay, somebody's got to be in that cell. 12 MR. HAYES: Hmm. Ace bastard. That's a 13 way to fuck with the other guys. 14 MR. : Meaning, if they actually did 15 the rounds and the counts like they were 16 supposed to, there was more than enough time 17 for them to turn around and assign another 18 cellmate, if needed. 19 MR. : Or to say, of course, to 20 your point, where they are saying that nobody 21 ever told them, if you were making your rounds, 22 you would have saw that there was nobody in 23 that cell, and then ask you a question, where 24 he's at. 25 MR. HAYES: And the person whose job it is EFTA00119295 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 to make sure they are doing their rounds is the 2 lieutenant or the captain? 3 MR. : On the shift, it is the 4 lieutenant would check. But now, in fairness 5 to the lieutenant, if you are going off of a 6 sheet, and the sheet says, hey, you made your 7 rounds, and then, something like this happens, 8 then you find out people didn't make their 9 rounds. 10 MR. : And I think what 11 question to you was, does this suggest to you 12 that they were not actually conducting their 13 rounds? The fact that Reyes was gone for 24 14 hours, and the notifications weren't made? 15 MR. : It would appear, yeah, that 16 that is the appearance. 17 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:18:07). 18 MR. : Yeah. I mean. 19 MR. : I just have one other 20 question. 21 MR. HAYES: When I do cross examinations, 22 and it says, it would appear that, yeah, 23 that's, yeah, somebody found. 24 MR. : Have you ever heard of C.O.s 25 pre-filling round sheets? EFTA00119296 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 MR. : When he says pre-filling, 2 what he is saying is that, the beginning of 3 their shift, they are going in and they are 4 just writing, they are initialing and putting 5 in the time. At the very beginning, for the 6 rest of their shift. 7 MR. : So, let me put it to you 8 this way. If I -- 9 MR. : I saw you smile -- 10 MR. : -- no, no. 11 MR. : -- when he asked that. 12 MR. : Because if I become aware 13 and know that somebody is doing something like 14 that, that is reportable misconduct. I'm going 15 to report that. So, if somebody came to me and 16 said, well, this person is pre-filling out 17 count slips, that would be something that I 18 would say, okay, you know, I have to do a 19 referral, or if I don't have enough evidence 20 for it, I would have a supervisor, you know, 21 put it out, said, hey, you cannot do pre-count 22 slips. 23 MR. : So, if we have people 24 confessing, admitting that they are not only 25 pre-filling out their count slips, but also EFTA00119297 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 doing it with their round sheets 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : -- what is your response 4 to that? How bad of a -? How bad is that? 5 MR. : Well, that is a referral. I 6 would have to do a referral for you guys to 7 look into it. 8 MR. : And then, if they are 9 actually pre-filling those out, does that also 10 suggest to you that they didn't do their counts 11 or their rounds? 12 MR. : Well, I mean, if they're 13 telling you that we pre-filled it out, it's 14 obvious that they did not, they are not 15 counting. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Because if somebody is pre- 18 filling out a sheet, that means -- 19 MR. HAYES: They're not counting. 20 MR. : -- they have no intention of 21 counting. 22 MR. : And does that indicate to 23 you, as the warden, that they are falsely 24 certifying rounds and counts that they did not 25 conduct? EFTA00119298 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 MR. : If they come to you, and 2 they say, hey, we didn't fill out, we haven't 3 done our count slip, that is an admission of 4 misconduct. 5 MR. : Right. But a false 6 certification, as well. Correct? 7 MR. : Yeah. That is falsifying the 8 document. I mean, but they have admitted that 9 to you. But as far as -- 10 MR. : Now, what if you -- 11 MR. -- me -. 12 MR. : -- what if they are 13 saying - they are a newer employer - and they 14 are saying, well, we are doing it because we 15 watched a 20-year-old guy, 20-year guy do it. 16 That's how I learned. He didn't tell me to do 17 it. But I watched him do it. 18 MR. : So 19 MR. : So, I did that. 20 MR. I would -. So, I would 21 say to you, when did that person come in? 22 Because anybody that came in under me, you get 23 the spiel that, hey, I was new, I was an 24 officer. I know what it is to be new. But I 25 always, always tell people, you got to know EFTA00119299 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 what's near and dear to you. 2 MR. : And that is why I asked 3 you specifically -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- with Tova Noel. Are 6 you confident that you gave her that spiel? 7 MR. : Talk to whoever was in her 8 class, and you talk to any, any new class that 9 came through, and they will tell you my spiel. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Okay? You can go into our 12 annual training, when we have it, talk to 13 people, and they will tell you about my spiel. 14 MR. : Do you say that always at 15 annual training? 16 MR. : I cover everything. Because 17 I have -- 18 MR. HAYES: Yeah, but do you always say 19 is, you have to do what you have to do. Don't 20 do it just because the 20-year-old guy did 21 that. 22 MR. : I do. I tell people about 23 doing their job. The same thing when it comes 24 to use of force. I tell staff all the time. 25 Use enough force necessary to control the EFTA00119300 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 situation. 2 MR. : But specifically about 3 not watching the 20-year guy. What is it that 4 you tell them? 5 MR. : So, what I tell them is, I 6 come in -- 7 MR. : Because it sounds like it 8 is the same thing you tell them every time. 9 MR. : -- right. So, what I 10 basically tell them, I said, you got some good 11 people that work in the institution. And then, 12 I had, you got some people with time, that just 13 want to do what they want to do. And I tell 14 them, don't follow them around. I said, you've 15 got one. If you are on probation coming in, 16 you need to be doing your job. I said, if 17 someone comes in, and they're not doing their 18 job, or they're telling you not to do 19 something, you make sure you let your 20 supervisor know. I said, I make rounds, you 21 can, you can talk to me. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : You know? So, the 24 expectation was clear. But with any other 25 agency - and I'm not just saying our agency - EFTA00119301 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 there are people that come in and they become 2 followers. 3 MR. : Now, we're going to move 4 on. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : We talked about the phone 7 call. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : On August 9th. What is 10 your understanding of what transpired with 11 Epstein being provided a phone call on the 12 night of August 9th, 2019? 13 MR. : So, from what I understand, 14 when you come in, you have to be able to do, 15 for the monitored calls, the voice analysis and 16 all that. So, from what I understand 17 afterwards, Epstein was never available for 18 that to be done. Because he went down to the 19 attorney room, and he would come up at night. 20 So, from what I understand, he was given an 21 unmonitored call. 22 MR. : And what do you mean by 23 an "unmonitored call"? 24 MR. : An unmonitored call is a 25 call that is not recorded with the inmate phone EFTA00119302 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 system. 2 MR. : Is it your 3 MR. HAYES: In other words, they don't 4 listen to what you say? 5 MR. : Right. They don't. 6 MR. : -- is it your 7 understanding that anyone physically monitored 8 the call, or did you -? 9 MR. : From what I understand, the 10 individual was standing right there when he 11 made the call. 12 MR. : All right. So, it is our 13 understanding that, "On August 9th, 2019, 14 Epstein made a request to MCC unit manager, 15 , to provide him with a phone 16 call, so that he - Epstein - could call his 17 mother. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. checked Epstein's 20 pack and PIN, and found out it was not yet set 21 up. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Therefore, rock 24 Epstein to a shower area in the SHU, and 25 plugged a phone into a legal line. EFTA00119303 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 286 1 dialed the number. A man answered. He handed 2 the phone to Epstein. And then, left 3 for the day. stayed Oh, sorry. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : mThen we found out that 6 the SHU C.O.s were around. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : And did not 9 specifically instruct any one of them to 10 monitor their phone call. Instead, he called 11 the SHU after he departed from the MCC, to make 12 sure that the phone was taken away from Epstein 13 after his allotted time.a Had you heard that 14 before? 15 MR. : I have -. What I heard was 16 he was there and did the monitoring. 17 MR. : So, your understanding 18 was that, was there the entire time of 19 his call? 20 MR. : That, at the entire time of 21 his call. 22 MR. : So, a number of questions 23 off of that. The fact that dialed the 24 number that he gave him, and a man called. A 25 man answered. Who, he said he was calling his EFTA00119304 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 287 1 mother. A man answered and he gave him the 2 phone. Is that problematic to you? 3 MR. : I didn't hear that it was a 4 Who did I -? They said it was his -. 5 MR. : So, that information might 6 have come out after. 7 MR. : It came out after. I didn't 8 - I heard that after the fact - so, I didn't 9 hear any specifics, but I heard it was -. 10 forgot who they said it was that called, but 11 then afterwards, they said, whoever they said 12 it was, was deceased. That he didn't have that 13 talk. 14 MR. : I think it was his 15 mother. 16 MR. : Yeah. I think it might -. 17 So, and that, that is what I heard. 18 MR. HAYES: His -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. HAYES: -- his mother died during the 21 time of this investigation. 22 MR. : Hmm. 23 MR. : She was previously deceased. 24 MR. : Deceased. 25 MR. HAYES: So, wait, wait, wait, wait, EFTA00119305 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 288 1 wait. 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. HAYES: So, he calls, looking for his 4 mother. 5 MR. : He said he wanted to talk 6 to his mother. 7 MR. HAYES: But his mother was already 8 dead. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : And the person who 11 answered the phone was a male. But he still 12 gave the phone to Mr. Epstein. Is that 13 problematic? That he says he wants to talk to 14 his mother. A man answers. And then gives the 15 phone to Mr. Epstein. 16 MR. : Well, remember, I am hearing 17 this, that it was a call that all along said 18 I'm calling the mother. I don't know anything 19 about a man answering the phone. 20 MR. : No, no, no, no, no. I'm 21 providing this information as in, like, you are 22 the warden, what is your take on this? Did he 23 do something wrong there? 24 MR. : Well, as far as, you know, 25 you are saying you want to talk to your mother, EFTA00119306 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 289 1 and the -- 2 MR. : And a man answers the 3 phone. 4 MR. : -- and then, a man answers 5 the phone. Yeah. It might have been some 6 questions he should have been asking. 7 MR. : Should have he verified 8 who it was he was providing -? If he is giving 9 him an unmonitored call, on an unmonitored 10 line, should have he verified who it was that 11 was on that other line? 12 MR. : Right If a male picked up 13 the phone. 14 MR. HAYES: Why do you know it's an 15 unmonitored line? 16 MR. : Because the legal line 17 isn't recorded? 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. HAYES: So, that means unmonitored, 20 that it's -- 21 MR. : Yeah. That you can't -. 22 MR. HAYES: -- it's not recorded. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. HAYES: Okay. EFTA00119307 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 290 1 MR. : On that note, were there 2 any lines that Mr. could have plugged 3 the phone into, that were monitored, versus if 4 they didn't have a pack and PIN? 5 MR. : Not on the ranges, I 6 believe. I'm not sure. 7 MR. : No? 8 MR. : I don't think there was 9 anything on there. 10 MR. : Because, yeah, we had 11 been told by someone that many, if not most, 12 BOP facilities have the ability, if a pack and 13 PIN such as that wasn't set up. There are 14 lines that you could plug it into, that are 15 monitored, but at MCC, that wasn't the case 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. -- in SHU? 18 MR. : Not on the ranges. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : You said not on the ranges? 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : Where would it be? 24 MR. : I'm not sure. I think 25 religious services might have a line. The EFTA00119308 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 291 1 Chaplin. 2 MR. : But not in the SHU? 3 MR. : Not in the SHU. 4 MR. : Okay. So, not only did 5 he do that, but he then left the SHU for the 6 day. Obviously, he was supposed to sit there 7 and listen to the call. Correct? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Should have he put it on 10 speaker phone? 11 MR. : Either listen to the call, 12 or if he had somebody else take over the call. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : You know, so, somebody 15 should have been monitoring the call. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Just to stand there and 18 listen. 19 MR. : All right. Now, the fact 20 that, you know, obviously, dropped the 21 ball there. He gave him a call, he just wanted 22 to talk to his mom, his mom is deceased, and a 23 male answered. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Second, he didn't stay to EFTA00119309 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 292 1 listen to the call. Third, he didn't tell 2 anybody else to listen to the call. Now, the 3 fact that the other - he leaves the unit - the 4 fact that the other people are in the unit, 5 should have they then, at some point, also 6 said, like, hey, this guy is on a phone call, 7 let's go monitor it, or should have that been 8 something that 9 MR. : Yeah, you couldn't -- 10 MR. would have directed? 11 MR. : -- you couldn't -. But 12 that's what I'm saying. I don't know the 13 conversation that took place between them. If 14 the call was made, and somebody was told to go 15 monitor it. Did they go over it? Did they not 16 go over it? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : So, I don't -. 19 MR. : So, Mr. told the 20 people -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- he's on a phone call. 23 Get it back after - whenever it was - 15 24 minutes. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119310 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 293 1 MR. : They were giving him an 2 unmonitored call. 3 MR. HAYES: The significance of this is 4 that, if somebody had monitored the phone call, 5 they might have found out that he was very 6 depressed, or he was -? 7 MR. : Well, there is Can 8 you tell us, why is it important for us to know 9 that what inmates are talking about on their 10 phone calls? 11 MR. : I mean, just for the safety 12 and the security of the institution. 13 MR. : Is it true that they 14 could potentially operate their businesses, 15 their illegal businesses, from there? 16 MR. : You could. 17 MR. : Or they call a hit on 18 someone. Or they could, they could do a lot of 19 different illegal activities, if we are not 20 monitoring those calls -- 21 MR. : Right. That's -- 22 MR. : -- that we wouldn't know 23 24 MR. : -- why we monitor them. 25 MR. HAYES: All right. I have one more EFTA00119311 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 story. 2 MR. : Yeah. Right. 3 MR. HAYES: I'm a young lawyer. And ] 4 know it's hard to believe I was ever young. 5 But I go - I'm supposed to interview a prison - 6 and I go to the interview, and he says, this 7 person is the main rat against, and I said, no, 8 he's not. I said, that person has got no - 9 fucking nothing to do with it. He don't say 10 nothing about you. Guy looks at me and says, 11 oh, man, I better make a phone call. 12 MR. : So, is it standard 13 practice to allow inmates to make personal 14 calls, as had done? 15 MR. : You do I, sometimes if they 16 come in, they don't have a pack number. Like, 17 you could have a family member that has passed 18 away, and, you know, you allow them to make a 19 call under that circumstance. You know, I have 20 a pack number set up. You know, so, sometimes, 21 but you should be monitoring that. Sometimes, 22 you make a call to another agency. And the 23 inmates, you know, you verify, hey, this is 24 such and such. But you stay and you listen to 25 the conversation. EFTA00119312 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 295 1 MR. : Was there ever an 2 instance that you wouldn't listen to the 3 conversation? 4 MR. : On an unmonitored line? 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : No. Somebody should be 7 standing there. 8 MR. : All right. And what are 9 your thoughts on this specific matter from what 10 we just, from what I just told you? 11 MR. : Like I said, if it's 12 problematic, if you said, if it's the way you 13 said it, yeah. 14 MR. : And is it a serious 15 concern and safety violation? 16 MR. : Well, yeah. I mean, it's a 17 breach. 18 MR. : And why? 19 MR. : Because we don't know what 20 the conversation was. 21 MR. : Okay. You said -. 22 You answered that. These are just on this 23 note, there is just a couple of these. There 24 is a phone call. This one says it's from an 25 . Do you know who that is? EFTA00119313 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 296 1 MR. : Yeah. He's the supervisory 2 attorney. 3 MR. : So, he is an attorney? 4 Oh, okay. That's the same guy. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Supervisory staff 7 attorney. It says, "For client Jeffrey 8 Epstein. Good afternoon. Below, please find 9 complaints from Epstein's attorneys. Can you 10 check to see if he has toilet paper, and that 11 his CPAP is plugged in? I am less concerned 12 regarding his complaint of having had two 13 calls, but they were on unmonitored lines. So, 14 there is no recording of them. His phone 15 account is set up, so we could get a call on 16 the ITS, when 30 days has -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- elapsed." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So, it looks like this 21 was actually discussed, and this again, was on 22 August 6, 2019. Do you know if this was -? It 23 looks like this was the whole, to the whole 24 executive staff -- 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119314 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 297 1 MR. : -- team. Was this talked 2 about at all? 3 MR. : It was sent out, and that's 4 when, and I don't recall the timeline, I said 5 he needs to get his stuff set up. Anything -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- that he needs, needs to 8 get it set up. So, I believe that was the day 9 when I sent everybody up there, in the attorney 10 room area, and said, get his stuff set up. 11 MR. : Now, did you - the 12 captain, I believe, informed that he 13 would give him this call, just make sure it's 14 monitored. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Prior to that, did the 17 captain talk to you about this at all? 18 MR. : About what? 19 MR. : Well, affording this un, 20 you know, this call on an unmonitored line, but 21 just making sure it was monitored? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : No? 24 MR. : Hmm-mm. 25 MR. : But what you had said, EFTA00119315 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 298 1 make sure his pack and PIN is set up? 2 MR. : Yeah. I had to. Because 3 there was some other things to get set up, and 4 I said, hey, we got to make sure that we can 5 get his stuff going. If that's the date, if I 6 remember, where everyone went up and talked to 7 him at the, where he was in the attorney room. 8 MR. : Okay. Now, this is one 9 that's going to be -. Now, did you -. Were 10 you able to print out that attachment? 11 MR. : No. That's just our screen. 12 It's not what they would see. 13 MR. : I was just hoping -. 14 Okay. So, this is one we got. It's something 15 from 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : And who is that? 18 MR. : That's the communication 19 guy. 20 MR. : Correct. And he is in 21 charge of, like, the phones 22 MR. : The phones. 23 MR. : -- the cameras. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : Correct? EFTA00119316 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 299 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : And he's to you, and it 3 says, "Phone record 104." 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : Sent on Saturday, August 6 10th, 2019, at 3:04 p.m. Now, it has an 7 attachment here, titled 8.19.19.cap. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : That we are unable to 10 open. Do you know what that would have been? 11 It appears that it is related to the phone call 12 that Mr. Epstein made. Do you remember if you 13 ever received a recording of that phone call? 14 MR. : No. I didn't get any 15 recordings. 16 MR. : Would it have 17 MR. : Nuh-uh. 18 MR. : -- been, maybe, then, the 19 number that he dialed? 20 MR. : I think it might -. And it 21 might have been the number. I'm not sure. 22 can't I don't recall. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : What that is. 25 MR. : Do you remember asking EFTA00119317 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 300 1 Mr. to provide you with any specific 2 information with regards to the call? 3 MR. : We might have called him 4 about the line, and what was the number that 5 was called. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : And could they have pulled 8 it up. So, we might have asked him that. 9 MR. : But it definitely wasn't 10 an actual recording on the phone? 11 MR. : No. It was -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. I think it might have 14 been the number that, you know, I think wanting 15 to pass on to the FBI. 16 MR. : Great. 17 MR. : Uh-huh. 18 MR. : Do you mind just 19 initialing -- 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : -- and dating that? 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : I just didn't know what 24 that .cap was. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119318 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 301 1 MR. : So, we didn't know, oh my 2 gosh, do we have a recording of this thing? 3 MR. : The second one, too. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : All right. Now, we are 6 going to get into the actual incident. 7 MR. HAYES: Oh my God. Now, 8 (Indiscernible *03:34:06) getting ready to get 9 into. 10 MR. : We don't have much more. 11 I promise. I mean, we are way passed the -- 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 13 MR. : -- yeah. What is your 14 understanding of what occurred in Epstein's 15 cell on August 10th, 2019? 16 MR. : I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know? 18 MR. : I didn't go up there 19 MR. : Do you -. 20 MR. : I never saw the cell. 21 MR. : Do you believe if -. Do 22 you know if Epstein took his own life? 23 MR. : That's what I've been told. 24 MR. : Is that your 25 understanding of what happened? EFTA00119319 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 302 1 MR. : That was what was conveyed 2 to me. 3 MR. : Do you have any 4 information, with regard to anyone else taking 5 Epstein's life? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : No. Have you heard that 8 Epstein's cell door was left opened on the 9 night of August 9th, 2019, and/or the morning 10 of August 10th, 2019? 11 MR. : I didn't hear that. 12 MR. : You have never heard 13 that? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : Have you heard that any 16 cellmate's in the SHU - any cells within the 17 SHU, any of their doors were left opened on the 18 night of August 9th, 2019 in the morning? 19 MR. : I did not hear that. 20 MR. : On August 9th. No? 21 MR. : Hmm-mm. 22 MR. : Do you know if anyone 23 harmed Epstein? 24 MR. : No. I would have reported 25 it. EFTA00119320 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 303 1 MR. : All right. So, these are 2 the - let's see - this is the Bureau of Prisons 3 Health Services Clinical Encounter. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : Did you get to review 6 this one at all? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : It talks about responding 9 to a body alarm at 6:35 for medical emergency. 10 MR. : I think I might have saw the 11 memorandums, but I don't I don't recall 12 seeing this. 13 MR. : All right. So, let me 14 just read this, for the record -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- because it is a very 17 quick one. It says, "Responded to a body alarm 18 at 6:35 for a medical emergency on Nine South. 19 Upon arrival, inmate was received on the floor 20 of his cell, unresponsive, with CPR in progress 21 by correctional officers. The inmate was cold 22 with circumferential bruising around the neck 23 and posterior mottling. Pupils fixed and 24 dilated. No palpus (Phonetic Sp. *03:35:59) 25 pulses, call place for EMS, CPR continued. EFTA00119321 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 304 1 ED placed. No shock advised. CPR 2 continued. Inmate transported to HSU treatment 3 room, with CPR in progress. 18G, heplock 4 (Phonetic Sp. *03:36:12)." No. I'm not going 5 to read the rest of this. It just talks about 6 continued CPR in progress. Are you aware, 7 after Epstein was found on August 10th, 2019, 8 at approximately 6:33 a.m., did he ever show 9 any signs of life? 10 MR. : I never -. I wasn't up 11 there. 12 MR. : Yeah. I just didn't know 13 if you had heard -- 14 MR. : No. When I -- 15 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 16 *03:36:34). 17 MR. : -- when I got there, he wa - 18 already out. 19 MR. : Because they said that, 20 you know, he was declared deceased at the 21 hospital. So, my question is, it sounds like, 22 from this person's report -- 23 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 24 MR. : -- he was 25 MR. HAYES: Right. EFTA00119322 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 305 1 MR. : -- there was no signs of 2 life. 3 MR. : And that's -- 4 MR. : And I was just wondering, 5 had you heard anything from staff? Was there 6 ever any signs of life, that you are aware of, 7 while after - from the point he was found, on. 8 MR. : Well, the impression that I 9 was given was, he was alive when he left the 10 institution. 11 MR. : So, you believed he was 12 actually alive? 13 MR. : That's what was conveyed. 14 MR. : It was conveyed to you 15 that -? 16 MR. : I think he was still alive, 17 if I remember right. I think he was -. They 18 did the CPR. And then, they got him out. 19 MR. : And who -. So, according 20 to this, again, this person arrived at 6:35 -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- they're saying the 23 inmate was cold. You know, "Pupils fixed and 24 dilated. No palpus pulses." Meaning, I'm 25 assuming, that means no pulse. You know? EFTA00119323 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 306 1 MR. : So, you would probably have 2 to look at the response, the staff responding 3 memorandums on what -. 4 MR. : So, up until this date, 5 did you think that he was alive when he had 6 left the institution? 7 MR. : That's what I believed. 8 That was the impression I had. 9 MR. HAYES: Can I ask a question? Right. 10 If he was dead when they came, and somebody 11 found him, or even if he was close to death, 12 how long would it have been that he tried to 13 kill himself, and the time that they found him? 14 In other words, does that mean he tried to kill 15 himself 45 minutes before? Does that mean he 16 tried to kill himself 30 minutes before? You 17 understand the question I'm asking? 18 MR. : Sure. I mean, that is 19 something that the medical examiner, you know, 20 makes that determination. 21 MR. HAYES: Because obviously, if he was, 22 had done whatever he did, during the time that 23 there was supposed to be a round, and somebody 24 fucked up, you know what I mean? If you are 25 there, with a towel around your throat, that's EFTA00119324 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 307 1 a hint that you are not exactly in the best of 2 moods. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : But the other thing is, you 5 know, I don't know, like you just said, the 6 medical examiner determines, you know, if he's 7 alive or -. 8 MR. : Well, and that was going 9 to become my follow up. First of all, who - 10 this person. It says provider, 11 RN. Is that someone who worked at -? 12 MR. : He was one of the nurses 13 that worked. 14 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : All right. And is it 16 your understanding, by saying provider, this is 17 the person who wrote this report? 18 MR. : Yeah. Typically, who has 19 the encounter fills it, writes it in the 20 system. 21 MR. : Okay. So, up until me 22 reading these out, you actually were under the 23 assumption that he was alive? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : When he left. EFTA00119325 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 308 1 MR. : I thought he was alive. 2 Yeah. That was my assumption. 3 MR. : Okay. Does that have 4 anything to do with the fact that the medical 5 examiner is the only one who can declare him 6 dead? 7 MR. : It does, too. 8 MR. : All right. And also -- 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : I have heard that 11 inmates don't die at prisons. 12 MR. : Well, I mean, people say 13 that, but again, in reality, we - no one in the 14 prison can declare an inmate dead. 15 MR. : Right, right, right. 16 MR. : Even if -. 17 MR. : But is that what you mean 18 by that statement, though? Did you -. I mean, 19 had you heard that he showed signs from life? 20 MR. : From what -- 21 MR. : Because we have heard 22 this -- 23 MR. : -- from -- 24 MR. : -- type of thing -- 25 MR. : -- yeah, from what I -- EFTA00119326 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 309 1 MR. : -- before. 2 MR. : -- hear, they were still 3 performing life-saving measures on him, even 4 when, from - what do you call it? - EMS coming 5 in there. So, when you say to me that we are 6 performing life-saving measures, I'm assuming 7 that he is still alive. 8 MR. : Right. Like, there is -- 9 MR. : so -. 10 MR. : -- always a chance you 11 could bring him back. 12 MR. : That, you know 13 MR. : Or you are hoping that 14 you are going to resuscitate him. But do you 15 know of any indication of -- 16 MR. HAYES: That he was successful 17 MR. : -- signs of life? 18 MR. HAYES: -- yeah. 19 MR. : I didn't. Again, I'm going 20 off of, assuming that he was still alive 21 because they were still working on him. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, and if somebody start, 24 now, I've been in situations where the 25 paramedics come in, and, you know, they work on EFTA00119327 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 310 1 them, and they say, you know what? There is 2 nothing else we can do. He still hasn't been 3 declared dead. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : But they still -. 6 MR. HAYES: Right. 7 MR. : But from what I gather, they 8 were still working on them. 9 MR. HAYES: When you say nobody dies in 10 prison, you are being facetious? 11 MR. : It's just one of those 12 things that -- 13 MR. HAYES: Yeah. It doesn't 14 MR. : -- it happens at the -- 15 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 16 MR. : -- at the hospital. 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : That's where they ar= 20 declared dead. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. HAYES: Right. Okay. 24 MR. : And that's not, you know, 25 necessarily true. I mean, it's where you are EFTA00119328 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 like, sometimes 2 MR. HAYES: It's sort of a joke. 3 MR. : -- yeah. 4 MR. HAYES: To (Indiscernible *03:40:46). 5 MR. : It's a joke. Because 6 sometimes, the bodies are still there, and -- 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : -- and we know he is 9 deceased. But then, the doctor and the medical 10 examiner -- 11 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 12 MR. : -- declares -- 13 MR. HAYES: At the hospital -- 14 MR. : -- (Indiscernible 15 *03:40:57). 16 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:40:57) 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. HAYES: The guy's got a big 19 (Indiscernible *03:41:00), you know -- 20 MR. : Uh-huh. 21 MR. HAYES: -- whatever they call them, 22 knives in his chest. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. HAYES: You know, you can tell he's 25 not coming back, but I mean, you know what I'm EFTA00119329 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 312 1 saying, they don't say he's dead on the scene. 2 (Indiscernible *03:41:04). 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : But just, I just want to 5 be clear, because with that statement, without 6 me getting a little more clarification, people 7 are going to read, wait a second, the warden 8 said that he was still, he thought he was still 9 alive. Now, I want to make sure I'm clear. 10 Are you saying that there was a chance for them 11 to bring him back, or based upon the 12 conversation with someone - and my follow would 13 be that, who? - did you believe that he was 14 still alive? 15 MR. : My assumption, from when I 16 was called, was they were working on him, and 17 he was - they were being taken to the hospital. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : That's -- 20 MR. HAYES: That was -- 21 MR. : -- that's the term. 22 MR. HAYES: -- that -. Wait. You were 23 called at a certain time. 24 MR. : Yeah. When the lieutenant 25 called. EFTA00119330 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 313 1 MR. HAYES: Okay. Now, the lieutenant 2 says -. 3 MR. : So, when you came back 4 and found out, did you ever find out that he 5 wasn't showing signs of life, when you came in 6 and talked to people? 7 MR. : No. Because I - first of 8 all, when it happened, I wasn't going around 9 questioning people about -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- okay, what's going on 12 with this, because then, I knew that it was a 13 criminal case. But not criminal, but there was 14 going to be an investigation into it. And so, 15 I didn't want to give the appearance of 16 anything, that I was interfering with any 17 investigation. But when I did call, they said 18 they were working on him, and that, you know, 19 he was being transported to the outside 20 hospital. 21 MR. : And who was it that 22 provided you with that information? 23 MR. : The lieutenant. Lieutenant 24 25 MR. HAYES: So, you drew the inference EFTA00119331 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 314 1 that that -- 2 MR. : Uh-huh. 3 MR. HAYES: -- meant he was still alive? 4 MR. : Right. I assumed that, you 5 know, they were still working on him, and he 6 was still alive. 7 MR. : And after that 8 conversation, though, and speaking with other 9 people, you never gathered that, oh, he was, 10 they were working on him, attempting to bring 11 him back, but he was not alive? 12 MR. : I didn't -. 13 MR. : From -. 14 MR. : The assumption, my 15 assumption, was that he was deceased at the 16 hospital. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Yeah. So. 19 MR. : All right. Do you want 20 to follow up on that at all, anymore? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : That kind of covers it. 25 MR. HAYES: Are we through now? EFTA00119332 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. HAYES: Oh, god. 4 MR. : We only have, really, 5 very brief conversations left. All right. So, 6 this was an email sent from you, to III 7 It just says, subject, "Names." 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : It says Michael Thomas. 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : Tova Noel, and 12 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Who were -? Why were 15 those people listed? 16 MR. : Because he wanted to know 17 who was working up there that night. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Who was the staff working 20 there that night. 21 MR. : So, why did you write 22 versus, like, , or who else was 23 up there? Was (Phonetic Sp. *03:43:25) 24 still there? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00119333 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 316 1 MR. : At least and 2 . Was left off for any reason? 3 Because I think worked 4 MR. : I think this 5 MR. : -- until midnight, and 6 only worked until 10:00. 7 MR. : No. For - and I don't - 8 correct me if I'm wrong - I don't know if he 9 wanted to know who was on the midnight shift. 10 And then, I included who was on Ten South. I'm 11 not sure. 12 MR. : I think was 13 the OIC of the shift previous. And then, just 14 Tova, 15 MR. : Tova would have -- 16 MR. : -- and Tova were the ones 17 from -- 18 MR. : -- been two up there. 19 MR. : -- midnight afterwards. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : And then -. 22 MR. : I think that Ten South was 23 Adams. 24 MR. : Yeah. So, I don't know, 25 remember it. But I know it had to do with the EFTA00119334 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 question about who was working. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, I don't know the 4 specifics and why it listed those three. 5 MR. : And you don't know if, 6 like, because these were, who we considered the 7 subjects. 8 MR. : No. I mean, these two would 9 have been obvious because they were working up 10 there on the midnight shift. But I don't know 11 why got thrown in there. 12 MR. : Okay 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Mind just initial and 15 dating that? Okay. And this one is an email 16 from Captain to you, dated Sunday, 17 August 11, 2019. And it says, subject, "A 18 memorandum, Epstein." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And it says that this was 21 dated August 10th, 2019. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : It's from Captain 24 It says, subject is, "Security expectations 25 involving inmate Epstein, Jeffrey." EFTA00119335 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 318 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Are you familiar with 3 this? Did you ever see this, that he sent? 4 MR. : I did. 5 MR. : Do you know what the 6 purpose of this was? 7 MR. : Let me read it again. 8 "(Indiscernible *03:44:56), and while this 9 could be conducted, I did, I informed staff 10 (Indiscernible *03:44:59) be dealing with 11 inmate Epstein, and others were notified. 12 explained that lieutenants were to conduct 13 (Indiscernible *03:45:08), and at that point, 14 (Indiscernible *03:45:09). I explained I 15 could, and they would not (Indiscernible 16 *03:45:15)." Oh, no. I just was asking him 17 when the thing happened, what is the guidance 18 he provided? 19 MR. : So, what did he provide 20 to, like, the SHU staff and the lieutenant? 21 Because -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- at least the last 24 little point on this first page -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119336 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 319 1 MR. : -- so, it says, "In 2 detailed conversations with the SHU lieutenant, 3 he was informed of my expectations regarding 4 the supervision of inmate Epstein, 5 specifically, he was reminded on several 6 occasions that inmate Epstein was to be housed 7 with a cellmate." 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : So, is this all, like, 10 the expectations surrounding 11 MR. : The expectations. 12 MR. : -- Epstein? 13 MR. : Right. Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And when he says, "burin: 15 the week of July 31st, 2019, in order to 16 address management concerns with inmate 17 Epstein," do you know what he is talking about 18 there? With management concerns. 19 MR. : The housing of them. And in 20 the Special Housing Unit. 21 MR. : Okay. And do you know 22 if, according to this, it looks like he is 23 saying that he did perform en informal training 24 sessions with staff. Do you know if he, in 25 fact, did that, or is it just based upon EFTA00119337 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 320 1 MR. : Just based upon -- 2 MR. : -- what he wrote here? 3 MR. : -- on what he sent out. 4 MR. : Okay. So, there is no 5 other information, aside from what he's telling 6 you? 7 MR. : Right. Yeah. He told me 8 that. 9 MR. : So, this one is - I want 10 to get your take on this matter - so, this is 11 back to , who was relieved 12 at 5:30, but she stayed at the institution at 13 least until 9:30, and sent out that email, 14 detailing, you know, what day, and the 15 lieutenant's log, and the daily activity log. 16 So, Captain sent her an email on 17 8/12/2019, stating, "Lieutenant , i am 18 reminding you to submit your supervisory 19 memorandum for the inmate Epstein incident that 20 occurred on 8/10/2019. 21 Please have it complete and ready for 22 submission on 8/13/2019." She responded with 23 no, addressing nothing, just saying, just 24 responded simply, "In your email, you state, 25 quote, `I am reminding you.' End quote. EFTA00119338 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 321 1 haven't spoken to you or anyone else regarding 2 the incident involving inmate Epstein or 3 anything else pertaining to August 10th, 2019. 4 So, how is it possible for you to be reminding 5 me? Second, I hadve been properly relieved, 6 prior to the incident involving inmate 7 Epstein." What is your take on that email? 8 MR. : First of all, any major 9 incident that takes place in the institution, 10 we have to do what is called a report of 11 incident. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : He is well within the scope 14 of his employment, asking, okay, where is your, 15 where is -. And I don't know if he was asking 16 her the overall memorandum. Like, you are the 17 shift lieutenant. You know, when this incident 18 took place. So, technically, you should have 19 been doing the packet. So, he is probably 20 contacting her for that. 21 MR. : Well, she was relieved at 22 5:30 a.m., but she was still there, and the 23 incident happened at 6:30. And again, she 24 wasewe there at least until 9:30. And she did 25 respond to the SHU afterwards, helping with the EFTA00119339 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 322 1 feeding. Should have she written a memorandum? 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : Yes? 4 MR. : I mean, she said she 5 responded to the incident? 6 MR. : She didn't respond to the 7 incident. She responded after the incident, to 8 help in the SHU with feeding and dealing with 9 the inmates. 10 MR. : So, she -. Well -. 11 MR. HAYES: So, somebody told her that the 12 fucking guy hung himself, should she have -. 13 Right? 14 MR. : Again, from what I gather, I 15 am under the impression, when the lieutenant 16 relieved her, she was gone. Because, and, you 17 know, and I can't speculate on what was there. 18 So, if we -. 19 MR. : She said she stuck 20 around, working on matters that she needed to 21 catch up on. 22 MR. : Okay. So -- 23 MR. : But it sounds like 24 manipulating those numbers on the counts and 25 stuff. EFTA00119340 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Right? 3 MR. : So, let me ask you this 4 question. I have, I have a medical emergency. 5 A suicide, right? That is an emergency 6 everyone in the institution has to respond to. 7 Why didn't you respond to it? 8 MR. : So, you think that she 9 maybe came back after? 10 MR. : It doesn't make sense to say 11 12 MR. : Well, she never sent out 13 her required logs, though. 14 MR. : Right. So, that, but -- 15 MR. : So, you reviewed her 16 emails. And I would think that she would have 17 sent that out, if she had left, I would think 18 she would have sent that out before she left. 19 Right? As required. 20 MR. : Right. So, did you leave 21 and come back? I mean, because if you are 22 saying that you were there, you would have been 23 one of the first responders up to the unit. 24 MR. : Yeah, 25 MR. : For the emergency. EFTA00119341 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That's a really good 2 point. 3 MR. : You know? 4 MR. HAYES: In other words -- 5 MR. : I wish we had -- 6 MR. HAYES: -- they're saying it sounds 7 fishy. 8 MR. : I wish we had thought 9 of that. 10 MR. : I mean, so, and then, if you 11 12 MR. : And if she didn't, why? 13 MR. : -- and if you didn't 14 respond, why didn't you respond? 15 MR. : If she Is it a claim 16 at all, I had been relieved, I wasn't 17 technically working? 18 MR. : If you are in the building, 19 you have to respond. 20 MR. : Is that right? 21 MR. : It's an emergency. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : I mean, as a lieutenant -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I would want to respond, EFTA00119342 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 325 1 and say -- 2 MR. : And so, the fact that she 3 states that she was there, and she was working 4 on her administrative responsibilities 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : -- so, is that a problem, 7 then, as the warden? What do you mean you are 8 working on the administrative? You should have 9 responded to that emergency. 10 MR. : No. But - and I don't want 11 to speculate on when you are there - but I 12 just, there is just some questions 13 MR. HAYES: Wait, and I think 14 MR. : -- they just don't -- 15 MR. HAYES: -- that is a yes or a no -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. HAYES: -- you know, question. 18 MR. : Yeah. I mean, it's a 19 problem. If you are saying I am working on it, 20 okay. Now, at what point did you say, okay, I 21 need to, because once they had said, hey, I 22 have a suicide or something going on, which is 23 probably over, you know, a real medical 24 emergency, and you hear the transmission on the 25 radio, you are going to go up there. So then, EFTA00119343 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 326 1 you say, oh, I went up there later, to help 2 with the feeding. Either way, you were in the 3 building. The captain is asking you, it 4 happened on your shift, you are responsible for 5 conducting the report of incident. 6 MR. : So, that answer is yes, 7 she should have written a memorandum? 8 MR. : She should have written one. 9 I don't understand why she didn't, you know? 10 MR. : And is that at all 11 reading how she responded - is that 12 insubordination at all, to you? 13 MR. : Listen. I will put it this 14 way. I can't speak on other supervisors or how 15 they tolerate, but if you had given me a 16 memorandum like this, we would be having a 17 conversation. You know? 18 MR. : Is that, at the very 19 least, inappropriate -- 20 MR. : I think -- 21 MR. : I think it's 22 inappropriate. I mean, that's the way -- 23 MR. : I mean, I read it. I 24 thought it was inappropriate. 25 MR. : -- yeah. EFTA00119344 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 327 1 MR. : I just didn't know how 2 MR. : I would have gone to have a 3 conversation, like, you know, first, are you 4 all right? And then, secondly, what is this? 5 But yeah. 6 MR. : Fair enough. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay, listen, one last 8 question. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. HAYES: Does that give the implication 11 that she is covering up for somebody, or she 12 just didn't do her job? 13 MR. : I don't know. 14 MR. : We don't know. That's 15 Had you heard anything about her covering up 16 for someone? Because -. 17 MR. : I haven't heard anything, 18 but, you know -- 19 MR. : Did you hear about 20 inmates saying that she was making statements 21 that she was going to cover for other people? 22 MR. : Again, I don't want to make 23 any statements -- 24 MR. : No, no, I'm asking you 25 MR. : -- that are not factual. EFTA00119345 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 328 1 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *03:51:56). 2 MR. did you ever hear -? 3 MR. : No, I didn't hear anything. 4 MR. HAYES: I would hate to -- 5 MR. : You never heard it. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. HAYES: -- I would hate to give my own 8 client a hard time. 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. HAYES: But, but it sounds to me like 11 she's got three hours where she knows this guy 12 is dead. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. HAYES: You know? And she don't say 15 much. I mean, you know, if I was him, I would 16 be drawing an inference, saying, what the fuck 17 is going on? Excuse my language, by the way. 18 I have a filthy mouth. 19 MR. : No. I mean, I understand 20 what you are saying, but you know, I'm just, my 21 point of view is - and my concern - is -- 22 MR. HAYES: Yup. 23 MR. : -- if you were there 24 MR. HAYES: Your concern is, you would 25 have asked, unlike myself, you would have asked EFTA00119346 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 329 1 her a question first -- 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. HAYES: -- rather than jumping into, 4 which is -- 5 MR. : Because I was -- 6 MR. HAYES: -- which is what I did. 7 MR. : -- under the impression, 8 because when Lieutenant called me, he was 9 the operations lieutenant, and he had relieved 10 her. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : She had gone home already. 13 MR. : Well, he had certainly 14 relieved her, but -- 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- according to her, she 17 hadn't gone home. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Do you mind just 20 initialing and dating that? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : Maybe you asked this 23 question. And I just want to clarify. Being 24 that she started this shift 10:00 p.m. the 25 night before, right? EFTA00119347 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 330 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Let's say this incident did 3 happen. We're not saying she did. We don't 4 know. If she went in and she altered the 5 lieutenant logs, for the previous shift, did 6 she do something wrong? 7 MR. : Well, and again, we are 8 knowing, though, that she started at 10:00 p.m. 9 So, that is still her shift. 10 MR. : Yeah. But -- 11 MR. : We've had this 12 conversation -- 13 MR. : -- no, no, but -- 14 MR. : -- before. 15 MR. : -- let's just say, you know, 16 the fact that the inmate wasn't moved until 17 midnight, and then the clarification, and the 18 count, the count numbers being changed in 19 there. Now, so, the lieutenant log count 20 numbers are accurate, except the count, the 21 actual count slips, were completely off. So, 22 somewhere along the way, someone altered those 23 numbers to -- 24 MR. : Well -- 25 MR. : -- correct it. EFTA00119348 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 331 1 MR. : -- the lieutenant is 2 required to take a count on each shift. So 3 MR. HAYES: So, see, wait. 4 MR. : -- you got the -- 5 MR. HAYES: -- the lieutenant is supposed 6 to take in a count. Right? 7 MR. : Right. Just to take one 8 count -- 9 MR. HAYES: He's supposed to -- 10 MR. on shift. 11 MR. : An institutional count. 12 MR. : Institutional count. 13 MR. HAYES: Okay. 14 MR. : Not a physical, in the 15 SHU count. 16 MR. HAYES: Okay. So, now -- 17 MR. : But now, if you 18 (Indiscernible *03:53:53). 19 MR. HAYES: -- I got to shut up. 20 MR. : Yeah. Go ahead. 21 MR. HAYES: He's supposed to take a count. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. HAYES: Right? And he's supposed to 24 enter the count. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119349 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 332 1 MR. HAYES: Right? Okay. And there was a 2 count entered, right? And there is no question 3 that, at some point, the count was altered? 4 MR. : The count was wrong. 5 MR. : The count was wrong. 6 MR. HAYES: Okay. Okay. 7 MR. : Well, no 8 MR. HAYES: Yeah. (Indiscernible 9 *03:54:14) -- 10 MR. : -- what he's saying is it 11 was altered. 12 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *03:54:15). 13 MR. : I'm talking about the numbers 14 15 MR. : So, if you recall 16 MR. : -- on the paperwork. 17 MR. : -- on August 9th, 2019, 18 the lieutenant's log says, at midnight, there 19 was 72 in the SHU. The count slip says 73. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : And the lieutenant's log 22 for the next day at midnight says there was 73. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : So, what Agent is 25 asking is, well, that obviously goes to show EFTA00119350 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 333 1 that she went back and changed those numbers to 2 72, because -- 3 MR. HAYES: But what is her motive -- 4 MR. : -- that midnight -- 5 MR. HAYES: -- to do that? 6 MR. : -- she says she was just 7 trying to make things accurate. 8 MR. HAYES: But what would be an ulterior 9 motive that would create the idea that she was 10 doing something wrong? 11 MR. : It goes back to when you 12 asked -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : -- is there something to 15 do with a cover up? 16 MR. : So, if - and granted, 17 mistakes are made in the log - but you also 18 annotate that in the log. Like, you will put, 19 okay, late entry. Because typically, if you 20 say the log is done already, when you go back 21 and make changes, you make changes for this 22 reason alone. An investigator comes in, looks 23 at it, and says, well, wait a minute, it looks 24 like you've been playing, you went back and 25 just changed the numbers. So, you can put in EFTA00119351 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 334 1 there, and you say, okay, late entry, explain 2 what your change was, and what the mistake was. 3 MR. HAYES: So, really, with this -- 4 MR. : You know? 5 MR. HAYES: -- to show a malicious intent 6 in her part, there's got to be something that 7 influences her to protect one of the people 8 that were - no question - were fucking around. 9 Right? The two guys that were fucking around 10 ended up getting pinched. Right? So, if one 11 of them is her friend, then she's got a 12 malicious motive to go try and cover for that 13 guy. Like, did $8,000 (Indiscernible 14 *03:55:58) police officer, he says, well, I 15 thought he drew a gun on me. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. HAYES: And I shot him. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: Oh, okay. Nobody else saw 20 that. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : But you are not aware of 23 her involvement at all, you said, or 24 MR. : As far as what? 25 MR. : -- covering up for them, EFTA00119352 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 335 1 or involvement in Epstein's death? 2 MR. : No. She wouldn't have had 3 that conversation with them. 4 MR. : And you weren't - until 5 now, it sounds like - even aware that she was 6 at the institution after 5:30 a.m.? 7 MR. : I was told she left. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And again, who told you 11 that? 12 MR. : The operations lieutenant. 13 Because he called me and he says, hey, I 14 relieved -- 15 MR. : So, 16 MR. 17 MR. : Sorry. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Okay. And did you have - 20 before we move on to the next subject - do you 21 have any more on that? 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : So now, we are going to 24 talk about the cameras. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119353 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Were the SHU cameras 2 recording on August 9th and 10th of 2019? 3 MR. : I didn't physically go check 4 to see if they were, were recording or not. 5 MR. : Did you learn that they 6 were not recording? 7 MR. : Yeah. We found out 8 afterwards, that they weren't recording. 9 MR. HAYES: Wait. Wait. We had this 10 conversation. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. HAYES: The cameras don't work in a 13 lot of these institutions. Right? 14 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Yeah. 15 MR. HAYES: All right. And that's because 16 they didn't spend the fucking money to make 17 sure the cameras work. 18 MR. : Well, it's -- 19 MR. HAYES: And I got to stop saying 20 "fuck." 21 MR. : -- that's the issue, too, 22 funding, and, you know, so, since that 23 incident, I guess there was some audits done by 24 the agency, and they realized that it was kind 25 of a system (Indiscernible *03:57:15). EFTA00119354 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 337 1 MR. HAYES: But you see, the issue is, 2 should you have checked why weren't the cameras 3 working? 4 MR. : Well, that's my question 5 is, do you know why they were not working? 6 MR. : I don't know the specific 7 language that was used, and what was wrong with 8 it, because I guess, after I left, they kind of 9 made a determination on what was why -. What 10 was the reason. I know we were going through 11 the process of auditing and fixing some 12 cameras. But those specific SHU cameras, I 13 wasn't aware of the extent. 14 MR. : Okay. Let's just really 15 quickly review -- 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : -- the SHU camera 18 documentation. Were you ever provided any 19 documents of a camera that actually was working 20 in the SHU? 21 MR. : You mean, the day of the 22 Epstein thing? 23 MR. : Right, right. At any 24 time. 25 MR. : I don't recall. EFTA00119355 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 338 1 MR. : So, were you provided 2 with this? This is right outside of 3 MR. : This was a -- 4 MR. : -- Ten South. 5 MR. : -- that says camera angle 6 out of Ten South. 7 MR. : Right. Were you ever 8 provided with that, as far as -- 9 MR. : It looks -- 10 MR. : I think from -- 11 MR. : -- it looks familiar, but I 12 don't -- 13 MR. : -- from 14 MR. he might have. 15 MR. : Okay. But you don't 16 remember specifically? 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't specific. 18 MR. : Okay. And then, just 19 while we are here, I guess, what are these 20 doors right to the right of this picture? 21 MR. : This, this door goes into 22 Ten South. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : And then, this one, I think 25 is a utility room door. I'm not sure. EFTA00119356 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 339 1 MR. : Okay. So, the door that 2 says "46" goes into Ten South? 3 MR. : That looks like the Ten 4 South door. Oh, wait, wait. Yeah. The phone 5 is -. Yeah. That is Ten South. It looks like 6 Ten South. 7 MR. : And what are we looking 8 at down here? 9 MR. : So, this is the, right here 10 is the officer's station area. 11 MR. : And do you - based upon 12 that - do you know what tier that would be 13 right there? 14 MR. : Oh, man. You got 15 (Indiscernible *03:59:02) stopped. Let me see. 16 Is that G and H tier, I think, if I remember. 17 MR. : And what would be right 18 to the right of the officer's station? 19 MR. : Oh. Wait. G. H. I. J. 20 A. I don't remember if that was I and J. That 21 22 MR. : Would this be L tier up 23 here? 24 MR. : Yeah. L and M tier. That's 25 what -. EFTA00119357 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 340 1 MR. : So, right up, right to 2 the right of the officer's station, looking at 3 this picture -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- would be L. And 3- 6 that where Epstein was housed? 7 MR. : I believe he was on the L 8 tier. 9 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 10 initialing and dating that? 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : So, here is a map that we 13 were previously provided. Does this look like, 14 then -? So, this is where we were that this 15 camera angle is focusing down here on the 16 officer's station. This is L tier. 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : On the second level. 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And this is where Epstein 21 would have been housed. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Does that look right? 24 MR. : That looks right. 25 MR. : Okay. Is this L tier EFTA00119358 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 341 1 here? 2 MR. : That's L tier. 3 MR. : Does this look like what 4 would have been Epstein's door? I know you 5 can't really see because of the police 6 crossings -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. -- on it. 9 MR. : I noticed it. The crime 10 scene tape. 11 MR. : Okay. Do you have any 12 reason to believe that that wouldn't be 13 Epstein's door? 14 MR. : What do you mean? 15 MR. : As far as, I know we 16 can't see the number -- 17 MR. : Yeah. I don't know the 18 number, but I'm taking your word for it, that 19 that is. 20 MR. : Okay. Now, if you see, 21 this is L tier range. And at the very end, you 22 see this camera. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Should that camera have 25 been recording? EFTA00119359 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. And is that a 3 camera that I'm actually looking at right 4 there? 5 MR. : That is a camera. 6 MR. HAYES: Was that camera recording? 7 MR. : Sir, do you know if the 8 camera was recording? 9 MR. : I didn't see. After I left, 10 I guess they said there were camera issues, but 11 I don't know what, I wasn't provided 12 information on what specific cameras were 13 working or not. 14 MR. : So, they didn't tell you 15 if they were working or not? 16 MR. : Well, remember, I was 17 removed. 18 MR. : I just didn't know if you 19 found out on the 10th or 11th. 20 MR. : No. I was removed on the, 21 you know, they said there were some camera 22 issues, and then, what they were doing, they 23 had the FBI came in, and took hard drives, and 24 I guess they were working to see what was 25 working and what wasn't working? EFTA00119360 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Can you initial and date 2 that? 3 MR. : I'm not going to get into 4 this since he wasn't aware that they weren't 5 recording. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. HAYES: Boy, I'm impressed by your 8 thoroughness, I'll tell you that much. 9 MR. : That's why they put me on 10 it. I'm -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: You're very thorough? 13 MR. : -- yes. 14 MR. HAYES: You know, if you, if you are a 15 good trial lawyer, you know, allegedly a good 16 trial lawyer, a lot of times, you are not 17 supposed to be thorough. You are supposed to 18 put an idea in the jury's head, right? Where 19 you can see they're invulnerable, stay on that 20 fucking idea, because if you are going to be 21 thorough, you have to bring out something that 22 you don't want to bring out. You know, so you 23 to speak to the things, but you know you got 24 them. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119361 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 344 1 MR. : So, this is an email that 2 was received. Who's 3 MR. : He's the facilities manager. 4 MR. : Okay. So, is this what I 5 wanted to show you? Hold on. Now, did you 6 print out the one that I sent you this morning? 7 MR. : Is that -. That should be 8 the last thing on the -. 9 MR. : Okay. I'm not going to 10 get into those. So, you weren't aware that the 11 cameras were not - or you are not aware if the 12 cameras were or were not recording -- 13 MR. : We had camera -- 14 MR. : -- in the SHU? 15 MR. : -- no. We had camera issues 16 throughout the institution. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, I don't know which 19 specific one, because we had Mr. working 20 on a project, to get some money for it. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : But when it came to that 23 specific night, I didn't know if they were 24 working or not. 25 MR. : Were you ever told that, EFTA00119362 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 345 1 either on August 8th or August 9th, that the 2 cameras were not recording in the SHU? 3 MR. : I heard - yes - I was told 4 that there were some issues with the cameras 5 MR. : On either the 8th or the 6 9th, prior to Epstein? 7 MR. : -- no. I'm talking about 8 afterwards -- 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah, no -- 10 MR. : -- when it happened. 11 MR. : I'm saying -. So 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- August 10th is the day 14 he is found. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : On August 9th or August 17 8th, even, leading up to Epstein being found, 18 were you ever informed that cameras were not 19 recording? 20 MR. : No. I wasn't told about 21 cameras. 22 MR. : All right. So, based on 23 our investigation, we learned that MCC, SIS 24 Lieutenant 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00119363 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 346 1 MR. : -- and that AW 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- became aware on August 4 8th, 2019, that at least some of the MCC 5 cameras were not recording. They contacted 6 comtech , and may have also 7 notified Captain . Did you ever 8 hear anything about that? 9 MR. : I knew prior that there was 10 some cameras in the institution that needed to 11 be fixed, but not specifically the SHU, no. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : And would have that been 15 based upon what they found? The AW and 16 SIS Lieutenant 17 MR. : No. Because we had had some 18 issues with cameras, and we were trying to seek 19 funding. So, and we were trying to see, okay, 20 what was working and what to get fixed. But 21 specifically, in SHU, no. 22 MR. : All right. So, only 23 because, you said that you were trying to get 24 fundinged. Did you know that there were 25 already cameras at the institution, and that's EFTA00119364 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 347 1 what they were able to replace when the FBI 2 took the cameras on the 10th, they were able to 3 immediately replace them with the cameras that 4 were onsite? 5 MR. : So, cameras all -. 6 Institutions always have, like, backup cameras 7 to fix what is there. But I was talking about 8 funding to replace the whole system. 9 MR. : So, this was from fiscal 10 year 2018 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : -- back in September. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : This is a memorandum for 15 you, from a acting facilities 16 manager. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And these are all the 19 different documents that go with it, regarding 20 a new camera system that was purchased. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : It was, it looks like 23 there was $800,000. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : For this total. These EFTA00119365 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 348 1 are all the documents that - here you go - this 2 is an approval of your September 11th, 2018 3 request. So, this is a memorandum for 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. III from, it 6 looks like a (Phonetic Sp. 7 *04:05:31). 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : The assistant director 10 for administration. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : It says, request to 13 exceed the spending limit of $50,000 on a work 14 request number 8158, replace camera system at 15 MCC New York. This work request is to replace 16 the current degraded camera system. The total 17 cost of this work is not to exceed $800,000." 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Then, at the bottom, it 20 says, "If you have any questions, please call 21 me or have your staff contact," and how do you 22 say that name? Do you know? 23 (Phonetic Sp. *04:05:57)? 24 MR. -: 25 MR. -: the EFTA00119366 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 349 1 (Phonetic Sp. *04:06:00). Chief facility 2 manager branch." 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : And it says, "At the 5 phone number." And then, here are the, you 6 know, the work orders for that. So, we have 7 spoken with SigNet, who was the camera provider 8 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- they said that on or 11 around October or November of 2018, they were 12 delivered. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : And then, talking with 15 the (Indiscernible 16 *04:06:22) -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- city manager, he said 19 that they started working on the infrastructure 20 of the camera project on or around March 2019. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : To get everything ready 23 for the new camera system that was onsite to be 24 installed, and said that -. 25 MR. : They had to run wires. But EFTA00119367 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 350 1 the old system was there. So, they had to run 2 wires. And they had to get a contract done. 3 MR. : Uh-huh. 4 MR. : In order, because you needed 5 the comtechs, and I forget the wording that 6 they used, is to run the cables, to get the new 7 camera system in. So. 8 MR. : And do you know how long 9 that typically takes to run the new wires and 10 all that? 11 MR. : You would have to have the 12 staff (Indiscernible *04:06:58). We didn't 13 have the staffing. 14 MR. : So, were there two people 15 TDY'd, though, in order to do that? 16 MR. : They started TDY'ing people 17 in, to come in. 18 MR. HAYES: Wait a minute. Can the staff 19 run the new wires, or you have to get an 20 electrician to run the wires? 21 MR. : No. We have staff that are 22 qualified to do it, but then, some of them were 23 new and really didn't know how to do it. So 24 MR. HAYES: Okay. 25 MR. : -- you know, it was -. EFTA00119368 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3r_ 1 MR. : So, according to Mr. 2 , it says, "The camera system was 3 scheduled to start March 17th, 2019, and it 4 started on schedule. When I arrived TDY 5 February 2019, we only had one communication 6 technician -- 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : -- therefore, after 9 talking to the regional office, they started a 10 project to assist in funding and labor. So, we 11 were able to start the week of March 17th, 2019 12 for the camera system, and all other 13 infrastructure throughout the institution. 14 MR. HAYES: St. Patrick's Day. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Below is the email sent 17 to all the institution from 18 (Phonetic Sp. *04:07:49), the northeast 19 regional -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- facilities 22 administrator." But point being, it looks like 23 that project had started. Correct? 24 MR. : It has started, but -- 25 MR. : And I only say that EFTA00119369 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3' 1 because I wanted to make sure you weren't 2 confused, because you were saying we were 3 looking for funding. 4 MR. : No. No. I misspoke. What 5 I'm saying is, I meant that the project 6 started, but the cameras hadn't been replaced. 7 Because they were still running wires for the, 8 to get the new system started. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, that unit still had the 11 old cameras. 12 MR. : Right. But then, the 13 camera system was actually onsite, and they 14 were working on it? 15 MR. : Well, yeah, but they weren't 16 - you didn't have enough staff to install, to, 17 you know, to rewire the whole place, because we 18 had, we wanted to put one, some on the ranges 19 that never had cameras. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : So, it was a tedious 22 project. 23 MR. : I see. 24 MR. : That required us to TDY 25 staff from other institutions. And then, you EFTA00119370 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 353 1 know -. 2 MR. : Yeah. And were you kept 3 apprise of where they were on that? On the 4 camera project. 5 MR. : I would acquire about it, 6 like, where we were with it. But we were to 7 the point where we were bringing people in from 8 other institutions. To get it done. 9 MR. : Okay. And do you know 10 when the camera system was scheduled to 11 actually be installed, or was it ever 12 scheduled? 13 MR. : From - and if I remember 14 right - it was a matter of before you even 15 installed it, you had to run the wiring for it. 16 MR. : Right. And that's what - 17 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:09:13). 19 MR. : I think was -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- what they were saying 22 in March of 2019. 23 MR. : But that had -- 24 MR. : That -. 25 MR. : -- been completed. Because EFTA00119371 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 354 1 you had to TDY people there. And to get it 2 done. 3 MR. : And they never provided 4 you with an update as far as, like, when it 5 would actually be completed? 6 MR. : It was still ongoing. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Now -- 9 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:09:27). 10 MR. : -- but after I left, they 11 got people in there and completed it. 12 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. Because I 13 think, I think that whole week, they were able 14 to complete the whole thing. Correct? 15 MR. : I don't know when. 16 MR. : You don't know? 17 MR. : You know, because they had 18 people come in from different institutions. 19 MR. : Now, is that, did they 20 ever, did the facilities manager, Captain 21 Whomever, ever explain to you how bad the 22 system was, and that it kept on shutting down, 23 and stopping, you know, cameras weren't 24 recording? 25 MR. : I mean, we would have EFTA00119372 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 355 1 incidents where, you know, something would 2 happen, and we tried to go back and find the 3 tape, and we couldn't. So, and it would break 4 down, they would fix it. So, I mean, we did 5 have issues like that before. But it was the 6 age of the cameras. The -- 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : -- you know, we had 9 infrastructure issues. So. 10 MR. : Because, yeah, the 11 comtech claims that, you know, like, he had 12 been, I mean, he's a very soft-spoken person, 13 but like, basically, screaming at the top of 14 his lungs as much as a very soft-spoken person 15 can, we need to fix these things, this is a 16 continual problem. 17 MR. : So, here is what it is. We 18 don't have money readily available at an 19 institution to fix it. That money comes from 20 what we call buildings and funds. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Which is funded by Congress. 23 So, you would have to talk to somebody in the 24 region about what the regional budget is, but 25 other institutions have issues going on. EFTA00119373 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : But being that -- 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- we have all these 4 cameras already onsite, and they had already 5 done the wiring for, you know, at least six 6 months prior to this -- 7 MR. : Well, not all the wiring -- 8 MR. they -. 9 MR. was done. 10 MR. HAYES: Yeah. He just, he didn't say 11 the wiring was done. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : No, no, no. I'm just 14 saying, like, is that, I'm just trying to get a 15 feel for what was the plan here, and who was 16 responsible. 17 MR. : Well, the plan was to get 18 the manpower to get it installed, but at the 19 time, we only had one person. Which was 20 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : So, one person can't -- 23 MR. : Well, and the TDY staff. 24 MR. : -- right, but even the TDY 25 staff came, they did help. You know, but then, EFTA00119374 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 357 1 we also had other TDY staff that were coming in 2 for, because of our staffing issues. 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : But -. 5 MR. : Well, that's what 6 told us. That the TDY staff that was assigned 7 for him sometimes were getting put on the 8 custody posts. Do you know if that is accurate 9 or not? 10 MR. : We might have had to do it a 11 time or two because we wanted to staff. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 14 MR. : And whose responsibility 15 were the cameras? To make sure that those 16 things were going to be operational and working 17 properly. 18 MR. : Well, it's not a matter of 19 who was responsible. It's, like, working on 20 getting it installed. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, there was no deadline as 23 far as, you know, okay, when they had to be up. 24 You know, they just had to be installed. 25 MR. : Okay. Because we were EFTA00119375 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 told the cameras are the captain's baby. Is 2 that accurate? 3 MR. : No. No. It's not. 4 MR. HAYES: Yeah. That -- 5 MR. : It's not. 6 MR. HAYES: -- that can't be true. 7 Captains don't know how to install it. 8 MR. : Yeah. He doesn't -- 9 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:12:11). 10 MR. : No, no, no. Not to 11 install them. But to make sure that they are 12 operational, and get the right people to 13 actually get it done. 14 MR. : Well, I -- 15 MR. HAYES: That can't be right, either. 16 MR. : -- well, I -- 17 MR. HAYES: Because how the fuck would you 18 know what -- 19 MR. : -- right. I -- 20 MR. : Well, because -- 21 MR. HAYES: -- who the right people is. 22 MR. : -- because what we were 23 told is that this was constantly happening, 24 whereas the cameras would stop working. And 25 then, nothing would be recorded. EFTA00119376 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 359 1 MR. : So -. 2 MR. : The only way you find out 3 that that is happening is to physically check 4 the DVR recording to see if there has a light 5 on it, or if you try to attempt to rewind, and 6 you are unable to. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : Because everything is 9 still live monitored feed, showing, so you 10 can't tell just by looking at the cameras. 11 It's only when you try to rewind them, that you 12 can say, oh my gosh, they are not recording. 13 MR. : Right. But that, it wasn't 14 just as simple as that. I mean, there were 15 technical aspects of it that you had to check 16 to see if the cameras are working or not. 17 MR. : Oh. Absolutely. 18 MR. : Right. And the captain 19 basically looking to see if, okay, is the 20 screen up? And then, is it recording? But 21 there was some instances where the hard drives 22 weren't working, and you don't know that until 23 you get deep into it, into the system. So, I 24 wouldn't, you know -- 25 MR. : That's -- EFTA00119377 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 360 1 MR. : -- put that -. 2 MR. : -- that's what he just 3 stated. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Like, the fact that the only 6 way we would know if the hard drives were not 7 working is by going in 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- to check the video. And 10 the video, there is no videos that they can 11 pull back. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : That's when they know the 14 hard drives stopped recording. 15 MR. : Stopped recording. And 16 then, and look at them. But then, this is, you 17 know, there was other technical aspects of i- 18 that, you know -- 19 MR. HAYES: I can't imagine that 20 MR. : -- yeah -- 21 MR. HAYES: -- the captain would know. 22 sure as hell wouldn't. 23 MR. right. 24 MR. : So, I guess, knowing, 25 though, that this was, like, a reoccurring EFTA00119378 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 problem, and the fact that, well, what we 2 didn't say is, it seems, it appears that the 3 cameras actually stopped recording all the back 4 in July, and for half of the institution. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Who should have made sure 7 that that camera system was replaced, and that 8 we had an operational camera system in there? 9 MR. : Well, the centralized area, 10 and I don't know where the break down was. So, 11 if it's a centralized area, then it would be, 12 you know, within our facility department has 13 access to -- 14 MR. : Well, the camera -- 15 MR. : -- the comm -- 16 MR. : -- you are asking where 17 the cameras are? 18 MR. : -- no, the comm room. 19 MR. : Yeah. The comm room. 20 Where these recorders were, were all in the SIS 21 secured area. 22 MR. : Right. The actual cameras. 23 But where - if you go out - where -? And I 24 don't know the word, what's the word? Where 25 your centralized main area is for the whole EFTA00119379 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 362 1 system. Yeah. That SIS areas has the cameras. 2 But that's fine. 3 MR. : Not the control room. 4 But it's back around where, it's a locked door 5 within the SIS locked room, where the actual 6 DVR recording and rack is, and everything. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 9 10 MR. : But -- 11 MR. : -- is that what you are 12 talking about? 13 MR. : -- that, but there is also 14 another, should be another area in the 15 institution, just for the communications. 16 Where everything comes into. So, I don't know 17 if it was back there or whatever, but our 18 facilities department, you know, their 19 communication guys check that, too, if there is 20 something intricate with it. 21 MR. : Now, so, was either Mr. 22 , or , how do you pronounce his 23 name? 24 MR. -: 25 MR. : Was , or Captain EFTA00119380 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 363 1 , were either of them expressing the need 2 to you at all, to, hey, we need to get these 3 things fixed? 4 MR. : I mean, the request had been 5 sent up. 6 MR. : Yeah, yeah. No. 7 MR. : So, yeah. 8 MR. : And these were all 9 onsite. 10 MR. : Right. So, yeah. ITcl mean, 11 we were going through -- 12 MR. : And again -- 13 MR. : -- the process of getting 14 the system up and running. 15 MR. : But there was no set 16 schedule for when it was actually going to be 17 completed? 18 MR. : No. Because we had to TDY 19 people. Sometimes we got them in, sometimes we 20 couldn't get them. And then, towards the end, 21 you know, boil down to money, with getting 22 people in to come fix them. 23 MR. : And when people are TDY, 24 do you - when you say boil down to money - does 25 that come out of -- EFTA00119381 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 364 1 MR. : It comes out of our 2 MR. MCC's pocket? 3 MR. it comes out of our 4 budget. It comes out of budget. It comes out 5 of the region sometimes gives it. Plus, on top 6 of that, we were for TDY to come to our 7 correctional post, because we were so short. 8 MR. : All right. So, what 9 would you say is the main reason, then, that 10 the cameras were onsite, but not installed? 11 Lack of manpower and funding? 12 MR. : Well, manpower to get it in. 13 And then, it kind of boiled down to funding. 14 You know, to keep TDY people, to get it done. 15 MR. HAYES: But do you have money, you can 16 really keep the TDY people. You don't have 17 money -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: -- you can't keep them. You 20 know? 21 MR. : But again, there is no, 22 there was no actual set schedule of it will be 23 operational by the end of this calendar year -- 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : -- or anything like that? EFTA00119382 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 365 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : That wasn't discussed? 3 MR. : That wasn't discussed. We 4 were trying, you know, doing the best we can 5 with the hand we were dealt. 6 MR. : Okay. And Monday morning 7 quarterbacking that. Should it have been 8 discussed, or planned ahead, that these cameras 9 be installed? 10 MR. : Would -? I don't understand 11 the question. 12 MR. : Well, being that there 13 is, it seems that there was potentially around 14 two weeks of no cameras, and in the SHU, no 15 cameras. Aside from that one outside of Ten 16 South. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : That were recording. 19 MR. : But that wasn't known -- 20 MR. : But it was, according to 21 the, you know, according to the facilities, as 22 well as the comtech, they said it was very well 23 known that this continually happened, and that 24 the comtech guy continually had to rebuild hard 25 drives because they kept on crapping out and EFTA00119383 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 366 1 not recording. 2 MR. : I mean, it is an antiquated 3 system. 4 MR. : Right, right, right. 5 MR. : So, when you go down, yeah, 6 obviously, you go fix it. But nobody knew 7 until after the fact that you, you know, that 8 you had a system that was out for two weeks. 9 You know, I mean, you go to any other, any 10 institution, the cameras go down. 11 MR. : Sure, sure. 12 MR. : And when the system breaks, 13 somebody discovers it, and they fix it. But as 14 far as getting the new system up, we were 15 working on it. 16 MR. : Okay. You want to follow 17 up with any of that? 18 MR. : You mentioned no one knew. 19 But the problem was, according to the comtech, 20 the system failed, the motherboard had to be 21 replaced on the 29th -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- they had a failure. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : And then, of course, no one EFTA00119384 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 367 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 checked it until the 8th. MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : August 8th. When the AW and the Lieutenant went in and they tried to MR. : Right. MR. : -- review video. Now, being that they identified the system wasn't working that day -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : -- how soon should it have been fixed? MR. : What do you mean? When they -? MR. : On the 8th. MR. : Right. MR. : This is two days before the, that, that Epstein was found. If they identified on the 8th that, hey, listen, the camera is not working. It's technically not recording. How much of a priority is it to make sure that those cameras are up and running immediately? MR. : It's a priority. So, what happens is, and we have run into this before, EFTA00119385 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 368 1 the parts. Sometimes the parts weren't readily 2 available. So, you have to go somewhere and 3 call for the parts, and depending on where it 4 is at, it could be in California, or whatever. 5 So, you got to see how long it takes to get 6 that part. 7 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 8 MR. : Over to repair. 9 MR. HAYES: And the key part for my 10 heating system -- 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. HAYES: -- is in fucking Belarus. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : My understanding is they, it 15 was the hard drive that they needed. Right? 16 And the hard drive was sitting with the 17 computer services. 18 MR. : Yeah. On the 8th. They 19 weren't able to get it. 20 MR. : I don't know. 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : And on the 9th, they got 23 it. But then, he claims that he wasn't able to 24 gain access to the room because it was an SIS 25 shop, and he needed to go until later in the EFTA00119386 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 369 1 day, and they were gone. 2 MR. : I mean 3 MR. : And on the 10th -. 4 MR. we have an emergency keys 5 to get into any area of the institution. So, 6 if he is saying he couldn't get in to the SIS 7 office -- 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : -- you got the captain, you 10 know, we got the techs that work in there. 11 We've got their glass is behind - what we call 12 in control center - behind a box. You know, we 13 can get that box open. 14 MR. : So, he said that the only 15 way to be able to get into it is if he broke 16 the glass 17 MR. : He can break the glass. 18 MR. : mm-hmm. It's okay 19 that he would have done that? And then, should 20 have he? 21 MR. : Yeah. If you couldn't 22 reach, you could just -. Well, he should have 23 gone to the captain or somebody and said, hey, 24 captain, I need to get into your SIS office. 25 MR. : Do you think it's at all EFTA00119387 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 370 1 acceptable, if knew on August 8th that these 2 cameras were down, and he didn't actually start 3 working on it, or at least, I guess he was 4 working on getting the parts, but then got the 5 parts again on the, some time on the 9th, 6 claims he didn't work on it because he couldn't 7 get into it, into the SIS office. So, he was 8 going to work on it on the 10th, on that 9 Saturday. 10 MR. : So, the question -- 11 MR. : -- and what is your -? 12 MR. : -- the question I would pose 13 to you is, did he notify anybody that he 14 couldn't get in there? Did he make any attempt 15 to contact the captain, or anybody to say, hey, 16 I need to get into that office to get a part to 17 do it, because if he had told the captain that, 18 the captain would have got that office open for 19 him. 20 MR. : Yeah. I agree with you. 21 It's a he says that the MCC was a different 22 So, at any other BOP institution, in the 23 country, that would have happened with, his 24 experience taught him that, at the MCC, 25 basically it could wait until tomorrow. EFTA00119388 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. HAYES: They wait until tomorrow. 2 MR. : So, so that's his opinion. 3 But again, I'm going to pose a question. Who 4 did he bring up the issue to? Because my thing 5 is, if you know it's an emergency, and it's a 6 situation to say this is the MCC, is a cop-out. 7 MR. : And is it, would that be 8 classified as an emergency? 9 MR. : If the cameras are down, 10 yeah. 11 MR. : That is an emergency. So 12 13 MR. : Let's get them back. 14 MR. : -- he should have 15 absolutely gotten into that room -- 16 MR. : He should have gotten -- 17 MR. one way or another? 18 MR. in there, and he knows he 19 could have gotten into the room, because you 20 can, we can break - if he said that stuff was 21 sitting in there, whatever room he said it in 22 there, guess what? You can break glass. You 23 can break glass after hours, if you need to, 24 and it's an emergency to get in, into an area. 25 MR. : So, his claim is that, he EFTA00119389 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 has rebuilt these things so many times. And 2 every knew that these cameras needed to be 3 reinstalled, and he had been saying that they 4 needed to be reinstalled. And now he's being 5 looked at as the fall guy. 6 MR. HAYES: You know, it sounds like he 7 could, you know 8 MR. : I don't -. This is not an 9 issue of being the fall guy. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : So, let's take every issue 12 we just talked about. We talked about the 13 camera project that we were working on. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : We were getting the people 16 in there to working. So now, let's talk about 17 the specific issue that you were talking about. 18 He did not notify anybody to get into that 19 room, to get to that part. That part was to 20 fix the current system. It had nothing to do 21 with the new system coming in. This is, he is 22 saying that this was a part that we needed to 23 fix, get put in, to deal with the current 24 system-. 25 MR. : Now, what about the fact EFTA00119390 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 373 1 that Lieutenant is saying both she and 2 the AW knew that the cameras were down on 3 August 8th. They told to fix them. And 4 they also notified Lieutenant , so that 5 she not only notified the captain, but wrote a 6 memo and provided it to him about the cameras 7 being down on the 8th. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : So, at that point, what 10 are the responsibility of the captain and the 11 AW? 12 MR. : So, what the captain does is 13 he notifies facilities where works for, 14 and says, hey, the cameras are broken, you need 15 to fix them. 16 MR. : So, should the captain 17 have, on the 9th, ensured that those things 18 were fixed? 19 MR. : Well, I don't know what 20 conversation he had with facilities to say we 21 are getting, you know, was it being fixed or 22 not. 23 MR. HAYES: Well, do you know 24 (Indiscernible *04:23:25). If he knows to tell 25 somebody on the 9th, is it possible to fix it EFTA00119391 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 on the 9th? 2 MR. : Well, the 9th is a 3 Friday. So, the 8th is when we are told that 4 he was told, informed, learned. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : So, we have all Friday on 7 the 9th to make sure it's done. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : On the 10th, 10 unfortunately, is when -- 11 MR. : But -- 12 MR. : -- we know the severity 13 of the issue. 14 MR. : -- but that's my point. You 15 knew that, okay, you were made aware that the 16 cameras needed to be fixed. Okay. So, your 17 answers, what you are saying is, I couldn't get 18 into a certain area, so -- 19 MR. : Well, that's what 20 is saying. Yeah. 21 MR. : -- but that, okay, but -- 22 MR. : But my question is, 23 should the AW or the captain have followed up 24 with that, to make sure that it was actually 25 being done. EFTA00119392 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 375 1 MR. : And to them, I don't, you 2 know, I don't want to make the assumption 3 because I don't know. There could have been 4 some follow up. I don't want to speak on it, 5 but you know, if he had told him something on 6 the 8th, you know, I don't know the 7 conversations that were taking place between 8 them. Like, where is that, and what is he 9 saying? Right now, I'm responding to what he 10 is saying, and it makes no sense. 11 MR. : Yeah. No. I would just 12 think that, you know, being a captain or an AW 13 would be -- 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- whoa. The cameras are 16 down in the institution? 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Well, let's make sure 19 that those things are back up -- 20 MR. : So, and -- 21 MR. : -- so they would at least 22 check back in on the 9th, and say -- 23 MR. : -- and then -- 24 MR. : -- where are we at on 25 this thing? EFTA00119393 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 376 1 MR. : -- but then, I don't know, 2 you know, what that conversation was. I don't 3 know if, on the 9th, even came to work. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : I don't know. He could have 6 said -- 7 MR. : Well, we do -- 8 MR. : -- oh, well, I'm not going 9 10 MR. : -- we know. But yeah. 11 MR. : -- huh? 12 MR. : And we know. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : So, I don't know. I don't 16 want to speculate on that part. 17 MR. : Yeah, yeah, no. That's 18 what we are trying to tell you. Is, like 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- we know he was there. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : On the 8th, he couldn't 23 get the parts. On the 9th, he got the parts. 24 But then, he said, he tried to get into the SIS 25 office. He was told by the - it wasn't an SIS EFTA00119394 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 377 1 tech, because there were only two people there. 2 It was somebody that -- 3 MR. : Monitored. 4 MR. : -- monitored the 5 telephones. I think he's now retired. Tay? 6 MR. : Tay. Yeah. 7 MR. : Was there. And he said, 8 I'm getting ready to leave, and he can't come 9 in here without me. And then, he said, I 10 didn't have access to the room after that. So, 11 my plan was to come in on the 10th, the 12 Saturday, because I was coming in anyway. And 13 that's what I was going to work on. 14 MR. : He's the com shop. He can 15 go anywhere, where there are computers. 16 MR. : So, that is not an 17 acceptable answer that he provided? 18 MR. : I don't understand that 19 answer. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : It's because that room is 22 not in where the SIS shop is. That's the phone 23 monitor room. That's the camera room. 24 MR. : And the key for the camera 25 room is how, I think it's only the SIS EFTA00119395 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 378 1 lieutenant, and the SIA that has the keys for 2 it. 3 MR. : That's what the SIS 4 office said -- 5 MR. : So, the -- 6 MR. : -- they said that -. 7 MR. : -- the phone monitor is, 8 he's in the SIS, but he draws keys to get into 9 that room. So, that room is all -. And you 10 can draw keys to get into that room. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : When you saw draw keys, what 13 do you mean? 14 MR. : Well, you get them from 15 control center. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : You know? 19 MR. : Well, we were told by 20 Lieutenant , the only way he could have 21 gotten them is to break the glass, which he 22 could have done. But 23 MR. : You could have broken the 24 glass. And that time of time it was 8:00. The 25 captain is there. The security officer who EFTA00119396 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 379 1 controls all the keys in the institution is 2 there. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : You can go to them and say, 5 hey, I need -- 6 MR. HAYES: The key. 7 MR. : Now -- 8 MR. : I need the key. 9 MR. : -- now, did either the 10 captain or the AW inform you of this issue? 11 MR. : No. I don't -- 12 MR. : So, you didn't know -- 13 MR. I don't 14 MR. : -- anything about this? 15 MR. recall anything about 16 that issue. 17 MR. : Should have they? 18 MR. : So, if -- 19 MR. : If it was a Thursday, 20 they found out, and it was all -. You weren't 21 there for that. 22 MR. : I weren't there on Friday. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : I wasn't there on Friday. 25 MR. : You weren't even -- EFTA00119397 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MR. : : 380 Yeah. : -- there on Friday. So, you know : And who - I'm sorry - can 5 6 you remind me, Friday? who was acting in your stead on 7 MR. : I believe it was , I think. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So. 11 MR. : Now -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 15 MR. there. : So, you weren't even 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : Our understanding is, I think 18 19 Captain about 8:00 p.m. was in the institution, too, 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : On the 9th. 22 MR. : On the 9th. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : So -- 25 MR. : On Friday. EFTA00119398 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 381 1 MR. : -- could have been to 2 any time during that period? 3 MR. : He could have seen him. I 4 mean, just, you can't -. If it's an emergency 5 to get something for, I don't understand. That 6 is not -. 7 MR. : No. That's great to 8 know. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : About this. So, you say 11 that's not acceptable. 12 MR. : No. You can, you can get in 13 there. So, I don't know -. 14 MR. HAYES: Well, one of the things is, is 15 in prison, you need a camera. Yeah. 16 MR. : Right. Especially in the 17 SHU. 18 MR. HAYES: Right. Especially in the SHU. 19 MR. : Now, who was responsible 20 to have the new camera system installed? 21 MR. : What do you mean as far as 22 responsible? 23 MR. : Like, who had overall 24 oversight on that? 25 MR. : The facilities manager. EFTA00119399 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mr. 2 MR. : Mr. . Yeah. So, he - 3 4 MR. : All right. 5 MR. : -- gets the people in there, 6 but we're allocating things. But again, I want 7 to say, that was, you know, with manpower. 8 MR. : Okay. Now, you've pretty 9 much answered this, and you can say it's the 10 same answer, but I just want to read you the 11 question. What are your thoughts on the fact 12 that the new camera system was there since 13 October 2018, but it wasn't installed after the 14 Epstein incident that occurred on August 10th, 15 2019? 16 MR. : It's the manpower. 17 MR. : Manpower. 18 MR. : Yeah. You know, getting 19 people, qualified people in there to do it. I 20 mean, one person couldn't do that. It was, and 21 we were putting in new cameras in new areas. 22 So, he needed more people. One person couldn't 23 do it. 24 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 25 initialing? And don't have to go through this, EFTA00119400 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 383 1 just the top is fine. Anything more on the 2 camera issue? 3 MR. HAYES: Oh, Christ. You got more 4 issues? 5 MR. : No. I think the -. We 6 have one more issue, and then just a couple of 7 questions based upon the BOP's findings. It 8 does say that there's leaks information. Where 9 are those emails? 10 MR. : It was in -. Did we mix that 11 up? 12 MR. : Here it is. So, here is 13 two emails that were sent both from 14 One to you, and one to (Phonetic 15 Sp. *04:29:13). 16 MR. : Yeah. He was the acting 17 director at the time. 18 MR. : Director of the BOP? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. So, the first one 21 was on August 10th, 2019, at 6:14 p.m. to you. 22 And the subject is, "Urgent request. Potential 23 leak in hospital regarding Epstein's death." 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : It looks like -- EFTA00119401 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 384 1 MR. HAYES: You mean -- 2 MR. : -- where is the -- 3 MR. HAYES: -- media leak? 4 MR. : -- yeah. It says, 5 "Please ensure this information is given to the 6 OIG FBI. Thanks." 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : And then, this next one, 9 like you said, is from to the director. 10 Subject, "Prison guards skip mandatory checks 11 before Epstein's death." This, the body says, 12 "Couldn't see the entire article on my phone, 13 but I wouldn't be surprised there are staff 14 that are paid contacts for local media outlets. 15 This has also been discussed at the department 16 level, all the way to the White House. And who 17 knows who may have overheard those 18 discussions." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : Do you know anything 21 about leaks in the media from the MCC? 22 MR. : So, what happened was, when 23 (Phonetic Sp. *04:30:17) came to see 24 me, the issue we had was - and I told him about 25 it - was there was a article in the Post that EFTA00119402 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 385 1 took a picture of our staff, and our staff rode 2 with Epstein on it. So, I told about 3 it, and I guess they said one of the paramedics 4 had leaked the information. 5 MR. : Like, took a picture of 6 them, like -- 7 MR. : Took a picture -- 8 MR. : -- posing with him? 9 MR. : -- took a picture of them 10 coming in the room, when they got to the 11 emergency room. Took a picture of Epstein 12 being rolled in. And our - what do you call 13 it? - and our staff. So, I talked to 14 about that, and then, I had also told him that, 15 you know, there might be some staff, you know, 16 because, and I didn't know where it was coming 17 from, because the information was just coming 18 out, you know, so quickly, and it was, like, 19 where is this, you know, coming from? So, I 20 called and made him aware, you know, told him 21 about it when he came on Sunday. But the main 22 one was because of the picture in the Post. 23 MR. : Now, who is it that you 24 suspect would have been leaking information to 25 him? EFTA00119403 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 386 1 MR. : I couldn't, I couldn't even 2 tell. But I just was, you know, with this 3 whole thing. You know, stuff would leak, had 4 been leaked out to the media, and you are, 5 like, where is this coming from? 6 MR. : Do you have any 7 suspicions, though? 8 MR. : I can't speculate. I mean - 9 10 MR. HAYES: That's my boy. I mean, I 11 don't know nothing. 12 MR. : (Indiscernible *04:31:48). 13 MR. : You're talking like an 14 attorney. 15 MR. : No, I mean -- 16 MR. HAYES: But like that, I don't know 17 nothing, but what I do know, I don't know. 18 MR. : I mean, I can't speculate. 19 I mean, the half of it was towards me. I mean, 20 so -. 21 MR. : Did you leak the 22 information, you mean? 23 MR. : No. I said it was towards 24 me. 25 MR. : Oh, you mean the EFTA00119404 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 387 1 2 3 4 information -- MR. MR. you? : Like, the negative press -- : -- and the negative to 5 MR. : -- yeah. It reverted back 6 to me. 7 MR. : Uh-huh. 8 MR. : So, I mean, that's, you 9 know, and it was just, it was fast and furious. 10 MR. : So, like, negative things 11 to people, you believe someone in the BOP was 12 leaking negative information about you? 13 MR. : I don't -. I mean, I, you 14 know -- 15 MR. : Can you give me, like, an 16 example of what was leaked about you? 17 MR. : Well, I mean, you know, 18 stuff that happened, you know -- 19 MR. HAYES: Listen, the -- 20 MR. : -- and I'm not saying 21 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *04:32:26) 22 investigation was going on. 23 MR. : -- specifically -- 24 MR. HAYES: I mean, you know -- 25 MR. : -- specifically -- EFTA00119405 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 388 1 MR. HAYES: -- whose fault is it? 2 MR. : -- right. Towards me. But 3 it was just automatically the blame was, you 4 know, put on me. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : And then, you know, the 7 other part of it was, I don't know if it came 8 from the department. I don't know if it came 9 from the institution. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Because all that information 12 was going, you know -- 13 MR. : But did anybody -- 14 MR. up on different levels. 15 MR. : -- did anyone tell you 16 that they believed that a certain person was 17 leaking information? 18 MR. : No. I didn't hear if it was 19 a certain person. I didn't, you know? 20 MR. : Okay. And did you leak 21 any information to the media? 22 MR. : Absolutely not. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you mind just 24 initialing and dating that? Do you believe, 25 though, somebody in the BOP was leaking EFTA00119406 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 389 1 information? 2 MR. : And I'm not -- 3 MR. : And I don't mean that 4 personally. I just mean -- 5 MR. : -- no. But -- 6 MR. : -- you know, you could 7 always get -- 8 MR. : - I don't -- 9 MR. : -- the second one under 10 there. 11 MR. : -- it could have been up to 12 the department, because the information was 13 going up to them. I mean -- 14 MR. : But I just mean, like, 15 based upon what information was being leaked, 16 do you believe that someone in the BOP - not 17 necessarily the MCC, I just mean BOP - was 18 leaking the information? 19 MR. : I will put it this way. The 20 Department of Justice might -- 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. because all the 23 information -- 24 MR. : Because it could be -- 25 MR. : -- was -. Yeah. EFTA00119407 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 390 1 MR. : OIG. FBI. 2 MR. : Initial. 3 MR. : Anybody. 4 MR. : It could have been anybody. 5 So, I don't want to -- 6 MR. : Gotcha. 7 MR. : -- kind of put it 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : -- on one person. 10 MR. : All right. The last 11 actual topic, before we ask a couple about the, 12 a couple about the findings. Epstein's will. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : Do you know anything 15 about Epstein changing his will just prior to 16 his death? 17 MR. : Mo. 18 MR. : Had you ever heard that? 19 MR. : After the fact. 20 MR. : Right. And when you say 21 after the fact, how did you learn about it 22 after the fact? 23 MR. : I don't know. Reading it. 24 Or hearing it on the news. 25 MR. : Did you ever hear about EFTA00119408 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 391 1 it in an official capacity? 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : All right. Do you know 4 if it's true? 5 MR. : Don't know. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. HAYES: He left this all to his 8 brother. Right? 9 MR. : I -- 10 MR. HAYES: Is that true? 11 MR. : I can't comment on 12 that kind of stuff. But what actions should 13 have been taken, or you don't know if it was. 14 If it was learned that Epstein's will had been 15 changed just prior to his death, do you believe 16 any specific actions should have been taken? 17 MR. : I don't know anything. I 18 mean, I can't comment on that. 19 MR. : Okay. So, that's the 20 last of the topics. Now, we have - 21 (Indiscernible *04:34:38) refer to it - I don't 22 think we have to refer to anything other than 23 the - where is that? 24 MR. : The after action? 25 MR. : Yeah. Do you have it? EFTA00119409 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 392 1 And I don't know what we actually need to cite 2 (Indiscernible *04:34:53) initial them. This 3 is the after action report. Is that -? That 4 the BOP created in response. So, just a few 5 quick questions on it. It says, "On August 6 1st, 2019, at 8:30 a.m., psychology documented 7 they were notified by correctional systems of a 8 form received from the United States Marshal 9 Service, the previous day, stating inmate 10 Epstein had reported suicidal tendencies." 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : Do you know anything 13 about that, and what transpired? 14 MR. : Wait. Read that again. 15 MR. : So, "On August." So, 16 just to refresh your memory of a time, 17 timeline. On July 30th, he comes off of 18 psychological 19 MR. : Psychological observation. 20 MR. : -- observation. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : And goes to the SHU. 23 "Two days later" - so, there's July 31st and 24 August 1st - "8:30 a.m., psychology documented 25 they were notified by correctional systems of a EFTA00119410 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 393 1 form received from the United States Marshal 2 Service, the previous day." So, I guess on 3 July 30th. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : The 31st, I mean. 6 "Stating inmate Epstein had reported suicidal 7 tendencies." This was the BOP's finding. Do 8 you know anything about that? 9 MR. : I don't know anything about 10 that. And that's before, when he first came in 11 the system, or -? 12 MR. : No. That was after he 13 came off of psychological observation. So, 14 after his actual first attempt at suicide. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Or potential harm from 17 Tartaglione. 18 MR. : No. I didn't. 19 MR. : You don't know anything 20 about that? 21 MR. : Nuh-uh. 22 MR. : Okay. And do you know 23 anything about the suicidal tendencies that he 24 was showing? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00119411 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 394 1 MR. : No. All right. And 2 then, on the same date, August 1st, 2019, 3 again, this is after the Tartaglione incident. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And after coming off of 6 psychological observation. "1:00 p.m. 7 Psychology conducts a suicide risk assessment 8 noting watch is not indicated, with a 9 recommendation for follow up in one week. The 10 delay in conducting this assessment is not 11 justified in the report." Did you learn 12 anything about that? 13 MR. : No. I don't. 14 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 15 MR. : I -- 16 MR. : And again -- 17 MR. : -- it's psychological. 18 MR. : -- this is just some of 19 the -- 20 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 21 MR. : -- the negative findings. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : We just want to know your 24 take on it. I don't expect you to know any, 25 all of this, or anything. EFTA00119412 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 395 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : It's just asking because 3 there's some negative findings. Okay. The 4 next one. It says, "Significant -- 5 MR. HAYES: Don't bring this guy in on 6 another case. All right? If the next time 7 this comes up, and he says, I'm going to bring 8 this guy, don't fucking do it. 9 MR. : It says, "Significant 10 discrepancies exist within Sentry, regarding 11 admission/release status, ARS." 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Sentry does not reflect 14 inmate Epstein being escorted from the 15 institution by the U.S. Marshal Service on July 16 31st, 2019. Although a signed prisoner remand 17 form is on file, documenting -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : having received him 20 from the U.S. Marshal Service. Additional 21 review revealed inmate Epstein departed the 22 institution for a total of four court 23 appearances, and only one of these occasions 24 was an ARS change made within Sentry. It 25 appears there is a culture of foregoing this EFTA00119413 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 396 1 vital function, due to the likelihood of the 2 inmate returning from court. This lapse in 3 procedure is a severe inmate accountability 4 deficiency." 5 MR. : Well, that statement is 6 incorrect. I know the regional office looked 7 into it and said that a pre-trial institution 8 can outcount an inmate to go into court. So, 9 he doesn't have to be keyed out on the ARS. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : So, the way they were doing 12 it, they looked at it after the fact, and said 13 there was nothing wrong with that. 14 MR. : So, they did re-review 15 this matter, and -- 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- said that there was -- 18 MR. : They were fine 19 MR. : -- they were doing it 20 MR. with it. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yeah. Because they kept 23 thinking, when they were looking out, same 24 thing like you said, he was going out to court, 25 but they can outcount him in that area. EFTA00119414 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 397 1 MR. : All right. And what are 2 they talking about, like, pre-removing him or 3 something like that, when he goes to court? 4 MR. : No. Going to court. 5 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 6 MR. : And if anyone is going to 7 court, because you have so much court movement 8 that you can outcount them. And then, when the 9 Marshals say, hey, he's not going out, then you 10 release him out of -- 11 MR. : So, this is -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. -- this means, on the El, he 14 would be listed on the outcount? 15 MR. : As court. 16 MR. : As court. 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And that's what they were 20 actually doing? 21 MR. : That's what they were doing. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : They had him on the El. 24 MR. : So -- 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119415 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 398 1 MR. : -- so, this is no longer 2 3 MR. : That's not -- 4 MR. : -- an issue. 5 MR. : -- an issue. 6 MR. : All right. The next one, 7 it says, "No notations concerning a requirement 8 for a cellmate were entered into the SHU 9 program, and subsequently available for SHU 10 officers to reference." Who would have been 11 responsible for noting that in the SHU program? 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : First of all, what is the 14 SHU program? 15 MR. : The SHU program is -- 16 MR. : Is that the 292? 17 MR. with the 292s. So, 18 don't know, from what I understand, and was 19 told after the fact, that they couldn't find 20 the information on Epstein in the SHU program. 21 So, I don't know how you came to that 22 conclusion. 23 MR. HAYES: By the way, let the record 24 indicate that he is not sweating under his 25 armpits. A good sign. EFTA00119416 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 399 1 MR. : We didn't. BOP came to 2 these conclusions. 3 MR. : Right. So, I don't know 4 where that conclusion came from because from 5 what I gather, they couldn't get - they 6 couldn't find the -. Because usually -- 7 MR. : Well, they found the 8 292s, but they were just very limited. 9 MR. : Right. The 292s usually had 10 to have everything indicated on it. So 11 MR. : And on that note, we were 12 told the 292, his file, was extremely small, 13 and it should have been larger. Had you heard 14 anything about people removing documents from 15 files? 16 MR. : From what I understand, and 17 was told, that there was no file. They 18 couldn't -. They had every other inmate's 19 file, but not his. 20 MR. : They couldn't even find 21 it. You didn't think they could find his file 22 at all? 23 MR. : No. That's what was told to 24 me. 25 MR. : And who told you that? EFTA00119417 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 400 1 MR. : I think I heard that after 2 the fact. I don't know if the regional 3 director told me after they came in and did the 4 check, that they couldn't find it. So, I don't 5 know. 6 MR. HAYES: That's after they found out 7 the Hilary Clinton -- 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. HAYES: -- came down and had them 10 (Indiscernible *04:40:44) a certain 11 (Indiscernible *04:40:45). 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : But back to the original 14 question, whether it was there or not. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : If it, the cellmate 17 requirement was not entered in the SHU program, 18 who should have made sure that it was? 19 MR. : On the, in the 292? And I 20 don't know who was doing it. It should have 21 been the lieutenant, to ensuring that it's all 22 in there. 23 MR. : So, the SHU lieutenant? 24 MR. : When they - yeah - when they 25 deny it, or the OIC. So, if the captain EFTA00119418 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 401 1 conveyed the information to him, that should 2 have been put on the 292. 3 MR. : So, either -- 4 MR. : By the lieutenant. 5 MR. : -- the SHU lieutenant or 6 the OIC. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : Now, when you say the 9 OIC, does one OIC of one shift take more 10 responsibility than another? 11 MR. : No. They are all on the 12 same shift. So, it would depend on -- 13 MR. : So, like, for instance, 14 was the OIC on the day watch, but -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : I think was the 17 OIC on the night watch. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : So, would one of them had 20 more of a responsibility to do this than 21 another? 22 MR. : No. But that should have 23 been done on the initial, when the directive 24 was put out. 25 MR. : So, from Doctor, or Ms. EFTA00119419 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 402 1 saying that here's coming off of 2 psychological observation, he needs to be 3 housed with a cellmate -- 4 MR. : Right. That would have been 5 6 MR. : -- on July 30th. 7 MR. : -- put out, and then, when - 8 9 MR. : So, who, at that time, 10 should have noted that in his file? 11 MR. : Well, you would probably 12 have to find out from the captain who he 13 directed to -- 14 MR. : Well, the captain 15 MR. : -- to doing that. 16 MR. : -- according to his, you 17 know, his memo that he sent to you -- 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : -- it says that he 20 specifically had these conversations on 21 multiple occasions, with -- 22 MR. : The SHU -- 23 MR. : -- Lieutenant 24 MR. : -- right. So, it would have 25 been the SHU lieutenant. Whichever one he had. EFTA00119420 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 403 1 If was the one, then would have been 2 the one. But -- 3 MR. : Okay. "August 9th, 2019. 4 8:00 a.m. Inmate Reyes, the cellmate, departs 5 for court." 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : Again, this claims court, 8 but if they are seeing WAB. Actually, you know 9 what? I heard WAB was specific to MCC. Is 10 that correct? 11 MR. : Other institutions will tell 12 you pack up your inmates with all belongings. 13 That's, you know 14 MR. : Because even -- 15 MR. what it is. 16 MR. on their findings, 17 they are showing that he departed for court. 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : Although, all the 20 documentation we showed says WAB. 21 MR. : WAB. 22 MR. : And transferred. 23 MR. : Yeah. And it says -- 24 MR. : So, even on here, they 25 are getting this wrong? EFTA00119421 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 404 1 MR. : And that's what the whole 2 confusion is, is the assumption that he was 3 going to court -- 4 MR. : Because then it says -- 5 MR. : -- when you look at the 6 document -- 7 MR. : -- so -- 8 MR. : -- go ahead. 9 MR. : -- yeah, and then, it 10 says, "Inmate Reyes does not return to the 11 institution." 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : So, and this was when a 14 lot of things, when we were first starting this 15 investigation, we heard was court, court, 16 didn't return from court. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : And then, when we 19 actually looked through the record, we were, 20 like -- 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : -- court. It's -. 23 MR. : I think people thought, 24 without looking at the documentation, that he 25 went to court and got released from court. EFTA00119422 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 405 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So. 3 MR. : So then, I'm just going 4 to read the question. If the documents list 5 Reyes as being WAB, and if they had the 6 transfer list, why did they say he went to 7 court and did not return? 8 MR. : I can't answer that. 9 MR. : Okay. "7:00 p.m. 10 Epstein was provided a social call by the 11 institutional duty officer." Does that mean 12 13 MR. : Yeah. He was the duty 14 officer at that time, I believe. 15 MR. : And what does the 16 institutional duty officer mean? 17 MR. : So, what the duty officer 18 is, is after hours, they walk around and, you 19 know, report emergencies, you know -. 20 MR. : Is that, like, the 21 highest ranking official there? 22 MR. : That comes on at night. You 23 know, there with the lieutenants. But they 24 just make sure that if we had any issues, you 25 know, addressing inmate issues, stuff like EFTA00119423 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that. 2 MR. : So, they are kind of, 3 like, the, basically the OIC for the 4 institution? 5 MR. : Kind of. I wouldn't say the 6 OIC, but you know, senior staff around. 7 MR. : Okay. "This call was 8 done on an unmonitored line. It is extremely 9 concerning why this call would have been 10 placed, and why it would be done on an 11 unmonitored line. Without further interviews, 12 it is not possible to determine the reason for 13 this call." Just, why does it say, "extremely 14 concerning"? 15 MR. : I don't know. Both are 16 report -- 17 MR. : But I mean, do you also 18 find it extremely concerning? Would you 19 classify it as extremely concerning? 20 MR. : I mean, it would be -. 21 mean, that the choice of words that they use. 22 So, I wouldn't, you know, necessarily say, use 23 the word extremely concerning. But I would 24 think, I would -- 25 MR. : It's certainly wrong. EFTA00119424 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 407 1 2 3 4 extremely concerning. 5 MR. : Okay. "On August 9th, 6 2019, during a shift change in SHU, the SHU 7 number three, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., officer 8 briefed his 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 relief, and the 9 other two, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. officers, 10 with the likelihood inmate Reyes would not be 11 returning, and inmate Epstein would require a 12 cellmate upon return from an attorney visit. 13 Inmate Epstein was not placed with a cellmate 14 upon his return to SHU." My question to you 15 is, just, how did they know this information? 16 How would they have obtained that information? 17 Do you know? 18 MR. : I don't know. Like I said, 19 I don't know who they spoke to during this 20 after action. 21 MR. : Were they doing 22 interviews, though? 23 MR. : I wasn't there. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. MR. : -- it would be -- MR. : But -. MR. : -- it was an issue. But EFTA00119425 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Were they authorized, 2 though, if OIG and FBI are doing an 3 investigation, is the after action team 4 authorized to come in and interview people? 5 MR. : So, I've done after actions. 6 And there is a point where you come to it, 7 where you, if it's an OIG or FBI investigation, 8 that I can't. I mean, I can't question certain 9 people because it might impede an 10 investigation. Like, if you are going to look 11 at video and all that stuff, or look at it, you 12 can't because most of the time, it's been 13 taken. So, I don't know -. 14 MR. : So, possibly from that 15 memo, though, that was created? If they are 16 not really supposed to be doing. I mean, I'm 17 assuming they are not really supposed to be 18 doing interviews. 19 MR. : I mean, I don't know who 20 authorized them to come in and do the 21 investigation. I don't know. It was, you 22 know, who set the parameters on it. I can't 23 speak on that. 24 MR. : And is it a normal for 25 them to do something like this, when there is EFTA00119426 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 409 1 an actual FBI and DIG investigation? 2 MR. : We do after actions. So, I 3 don't know -. 4 MR. : But I mean, do they do 5 after actions typically, when there is an open, 6 criminal investigation, though? 7 MR. : Not typically. 8 MR. : No? 9 MR. : So, I don't know. And 10 again, I don't want to speculate. I don't know 11 who authorized it. I don't know if they got 12 permission from the department to come down and 13 do it. I don't want to -. 14 MR. : Sure. "August 10th, 15 2019." So, this is the day of. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : "6:33 a.m. A body alarm 18 is activated in the Special Housing Unit. SHU 19 staff report inmate Epstein was unresponsive in 20 cell 206-220LAD. Sentry does not reflect this 21 accurately. Staff entered the cell and 22 attempted to wake Epstein. Control center 23 announced a medical emergency, and 24 cardiopulmonary resuscitation," or CPR, "was 25 initiated." So, the question here is, I guess EFTA00119427 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 410 1 I'll start with. Well, the information that we 2 have is Michael Thomas and Noel were there. 3 Michael Thomas immediately went into the cell. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Upon finding Epstein. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Was it appropriate for 8 him to immediately go into the cell? Or should 9 have he waited for staff to arrive on site? 10 MR. : You should be -- 11 MR. HAYES: What? 12 MR. : -- you're trained -- 13 MR. HAYES: To go into the cell, I would 14 think. 15 MR. : -- no, you wait for enough 16 staff to get there, and a lieutenant, before 17 you open that door. 18 MR. HAYES: Is that right? 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. HAYES: In other words, suppose the 21 fucking guy is in seizure. 22 MR. : Well, the flip side of it 23 is, he could be trying -- 24 MR. : Remember -- 25 MR. : -- he could be feigning it. EFTA00119428 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 411 1 MR. : -- we're in a prison. 2 MR. : Yeah. He could be feigning 3 the suicide, and then come on and attack you. 4 And guess what? You're the only person there. 5 Now, he has the keys for every range door on 6 that door. 7 MR. HAYES: Okay. 8 MR. : And you can lose 9 MR. HAYES: Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : -- you can lose the unit. 11 MR. HAYES: Okay. Okay. 12 MR. : So -- 13 MR. HAYES: Yeah. Okay. I made a 14 mistake. 15 MR. : -- that wasn't -- 16 MR. HAYES: That's the first time -- 17 MR. : So, he did not. 18 MR. HAYES: -- you make a notation, 19 (Indiscernible *04:48:23). 20 MR. : So, he didn't 21 appropriately (Indiscernible *04:48:25)? 22 MR. : Yeah. He didn't 23 appropriately. 24 MR. : And should have he known 25 that from his training experience? EFTA00119429 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 412 1 MR. : Yeah. Yeah. 2 MR. : "7:36 a.m., inmate 3 Epstein pronounced dead by the emergency room 4 physician. And we've already addressed this. 5 My question was, was Epstein alive, or did he 6 show signs of -? But we dug into that plenty. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : "On August 10th, 2019, 9 the two assigned morning watch SHU officers 10 failed to make their designated rounds, or 11 count the SHU inmates for two counts. At 6:33 12 a.m., upon finding inmate Epstein unresponsive 13 in his cell, with a torn bedsheet around his 14 neck, staff utilized the body alarm to initiate 15 a call for assistance. The medical response to 16 the incident was timely, efficient, and 17 exhaustive. Staff utilized an AED, as well as 18 a continuous CPR unit care was assumed by EMS 19 personnel." Are you aware of how - what 20 information they obtained to say that the SHU 21 officers failed to make their designated rounds 22 or counts? 23 MR. : I don't know. 24 MR. : No? And I just say this 25 because I know, in reviewing the emails, a lot EFTA00119430 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 413 1 of this information was provided from you to 2 III, and III was providing it to whomever, that 3 were -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- was doing this, 6 though. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : So, I was assuming, in 9 drafting these questions, that a lot of this 10 information came from you. 11 MR. : But I wasn't here when this 12 was. 13 MR. : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I 14 think a lot of this stuff, though, was 15 provided, you know 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- during the email 18 review, those first couple of days. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : So, that's why I'm asking 21 these questions, is, like, do you know where 22 this information came from? 23 MR. : No, I don't. 24 MR. : No? 25 MR. : Hmm-mm. EFTA00119431 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 414 1 MR. : Okay. "Institution duty 2 officers do not routinely visit SHU each day, 3 as required by the institution supplement. 4 Additionally, the IDO reports consistently 5 document the condition of SHU as satisfactory, 6 when observations have shown the SHU to be less 7 than satisfactory." Do you have any comment on 8 that? Do you agree with that assessment? 9 MR. : Oh, I don't know what day 10 they went in there. Again, when these 11 observations were done, I wasn't the warden in 12 the institution. 13 MR. : Okay. But prior to, when 14 you were the warden, do you know about the 15 institution duty officers not routinely 16 visiting the SHU each day as required? 17 MR. : No. I didn't know about 18 that. 19 MR. : You didn't know about 20 that. 21 MR. : I didn't. I ensured 22 sanitation. You know? I made sure they made, 23 made sure the areas were clean. So. 24 MR. : Okay. And what was their 25 ultimate responsibility when they would visit EFTA00119432 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 415 1 the SHU? 2 MR. : I guess same thing, to make 3 rounds in the unit. Check on the inmates. 4 Make sure there are no issues. 5 MR. : And is that, like you 6 said, the idea was the guy that's on at night? 7 MR. : That's the duty officer. 8 The institution duty officer. 9 MR. : Always at night, though? 10 MR. : They use - they typically 11 work from, like, 1:00 to 9:00, 12:00 to 9:00. 12 They cover the evening shift. 13 MR. : Because I thought it was 14 explained to me, it was kind of, like, the 15 person in charge when you are not here. 16 MR. : Well, yeah. But then, the 17 other flip side of it go to the other shifts, 18 you know, the operations lieutenant is the CEO 19 in the absence of a warden. So -- 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- the duty officer is just 22 the bridge to the executive staff. 23 MR. : But they were actually 24 supposed to be conducting those SHU rounds 25 every day? EFTA00119433 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 416 1 MR. : And then, again, I don't 2 know if they were or were not. I don't know 3 what they were, you know, what he was looking 4 at. 5 MR. : Now, why would, was 6 a reoccurring -- 7 MR. : What? 8 MR. 9 Was he a reoccurring -? 10 MR. : No. The duty officers. 11 Like, sometimes, you can get it twice a year. 12 MR. : Oh, okay. 13 MR. : So, I don't -. 14 MR. : But is it, like, a 15 quarterly -- 16 MR. : Well, remember -- 17 MR. : submitted post type of 18 thing? 19 MR. -- remember, he is also, he 20 is the duty officer, but he is also his unit 21 manager. 22 MR. : But was he -- 23 MR. : So -. 24 MR. : -- the consistent duty 25 officer? EFTA00119434 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No, no, no, no. They 2 rotate. 3 MR. : Every day? 4 MR. : No. Every week. 5 MR. : Every week. 6 MR. : Yeah. You have other ones, 7 every week. So -. 8 MR. : So, it goes between other 9 unit managers? 10 MR. : Other unit managers. Other 11 department heads. So, it kind of goes, you 12 know? 13 MR. : What is the grade -- 14 MR. : And do they -. 15 MR. : -- level requirement? 16 MR. : The department heads. It's 17 usually 12 or higher. 18 MR. : 12 or higher. 19 MR. : And some, like, maybe some 20 GS-11s. Our trust fund supervisors. 21 MR. HAYES: What grade level are you? 22 MR. : Huh? 23 MR. HAYES: What level are you? 24 MR. : SES. 25 MR. HAYES: Which means? EFTA00119435 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 418 1 MR. : It's like a general. 2 MR. : No. A staff. 3 MR. : No. It's what it's 4 equivalent to. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : Right. 7 MR. : So, if you're looking at 8 the military equivalent -- 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. HAYES: Hey, man. 11 MR. : -- it would be -- 12 MR. HAYES: I can't be too -- 13 MR. : -- the general. 14 MR. HAYES: -- cheap. 15 MR. : No. No. No. I can't 16 afford that. I got kids. 17 MR. HAYES: Well, fuck. Why didn't -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. HAYES: -- why didn't somebody tell me 20 that before? 21 MR. : No, no, no. I got -- 22 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:52:52). 23 MR. : -- yeah. 24 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 25 MR. : So, the highest level you EFTA00119436 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 419 1 can go to in the GS level is 15. And that is 2 basically a full (Indiscernible *04:53:00) 3 colonel in the military. SES is the general 4 level. So, don't -. He's being modest. 5 MR. : No. Yeah. 6 MR. HAYES: I always liked him anyway. 7 MR. : I did not know. I 8 thought, I assumed you were 15 since your AWs 9 are 14s, though. 10 MR. : No. But certain 11 institutions, you are SESs. 12 MR. : And MCC was one of those 13 institutions? 14 MR. : MCC is one. Your pre-trials 15 are 15s. Your penitentiaries. Your big lows. 16 Like, Fort Dix. Certain mediums. 17 MR. : And have you maintained? 18 Are you still an SES now? 19 MR. : Yes. 20 MR. : Okay. Since this time, 21 have you ever been demoted or anything like 22 that? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. HAYES: You know, man, I really -- EFTA00119437 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 420 1 MR. : No. Just got 2 MR. HAYES: -- I really got (Indiscernible 3 *04:53:45) for this guy. 4 MR. : -- no. 5 MR. HAYES: (Indiscernible *04:53:45). 6 You know how, I always give law enforcement 7 guys a big, you know, a discount. But I 8 didn't, he's fuck - he's a fucking 9 (Indiscernible *04:53:52) -- 10 MR. : I'm (Indiscernible 11 *04:53:52) a discount. 12 MR. HAYES: -- (Indiscernible *04:53:54) 13 couldn't afford him to pay. 14 MR. : Remember, I'm a federal 15 employee. 16 MR. : Federal boys. It doesn't 17 matter if you're a general or not. 18 MR. : We don't make any money. 19 MR. : You're not making a lot 20 of money. 21 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 22 MR. : But -. 23 MR. : Remember, I think the 24 president makes, what? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00119438 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 421 1 MR. : 250, and he's the 2 MR. : 400. 3 MR. 400. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Is it 400 now? 6 MR. : And the Vice President makes 7 two something. 8 MR. : Yeah, yeah. No. That's 9 10 MR. : And never disciplined. When 11 I was moved, never given a reason why I was 12 moved. I was just moved. 13 MR. : Okay. So, is the report 14 also says that, "Psychology intake screening of 15 Epstein contained errors in identifying 16 details, including that Epstein was referred to 17 as a black inmate, and by different inmate 18 names." 19 MR. HAYES: Oh, no. You're kidding me. 20 They said he was black? Hell, that was a 21 mistake. 22 MR. : Do you know anything 23 about that? 24 MR. : I don't know anything about 25 that. EFTA00119439 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Would that be a 2 psychology issue? 3 MR. : That is a psychology, 4 whoever was doing that review. 5 MR. : All right. "SHU has 6 multiple cells equipped with video recording 7 capability. Inmate Epstein was not housed in 8 one of these cells. And there appears to be no 9 set guidance on when to utilize these cells." 10 So, you already said you didn't believe, like, 11 he should have been. 12 MR. : So -- 13 MR. : Is that correct? 14 MR. : -- let me correct that. 15 None of the cells, none of the cells that we 16 had in SHU were, had cameras in the cells that 17 were being, working and being used. The only 18 ones up in SHU that had cameras in the cell is 19 Ten South. 20 MR. : Okay. So, no 21 MR. : So, they -- 22 MR. : -- where else in the 23 institution -- 24 MR. : -- nowhere else in there had 25 cameras in the cell. EFTA00119440 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 423 1 MR. HAYES: Hmm. 2 MR. : Ten South, we have it in the 3 cells where you can see -- 4 MR. : That -- 5 MR. : How about, like, Nine 6 South lower, or something like that? Would 7 they? Isn't that, like, the mini Ten South? 8 MR. : That's the - yeah - that's 9 the -- 10 MR. : Or G tier. 11 MR. : G tier. 12 MR. : That's not -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : -- what this is. 15 MR. : So, that -- 16 MR. : Did they have cameras? 17 MR. : -- that did have recording 18 cameras in -- 19 MR. : Just live cameras? 20 MR. in South, yeah. Just 21 Nope. But then, we had no cameras on there 22 that had live cameras in the South. 23 MR. : Okay. So, only 24 MR. : Ten South. 25 MR. : -- Ten South. EFTA00119441 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 424 1 MR. : Only Ten South. 2 MR. : So -- 3 MR. : So -. 4 MR. : -- this statement might 5 actually associate Ten South as part of the 6 SHU. 7 MR. : Right. Because a lot of 8 people that come in, when they first come in, 9 Ten South is part of there, actually part of 10 Nine South. We call it -. It's part of an 11 annex. So, when most people come in, and they 12 have never been there, they don't 13 differentiate. 14 MR. : So, being that these are 15 BOP individuals that did this report, what is 16 your response to them saying that there appears 17 to be set guidance on when to utilize these 18 cells? If they are referring to Ten South. 19 Was there guidance on that? 20 MR. : Yeah. Ten South, like I 21 said, was specifically for the SAMs inmates. 22 MR. : So, do you -- 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : -- also believe that that 25 is an incorrect statement, then? EFTA00119442 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 425 1 MR. : If that's what they are 2 referring to, I do believe it is. 3 MR. : And you believe there was 4 no other working cameras, outside of Ten South? 5 MR. : Ten South is -- 6 MR. : For a single cell. 7 MR. : -- is the one where we had 8 our cameras. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Because we had also been 12 informed that there were cells outside of Ten 13 South that had cameras in them, specifically I 14 think G tier. That's inaccurate? 15 MR. : G tier. There is no 16 recording of inmates in those cells. 17 MR. : Just live? 18 MR. : And I don't even believe 19 live. I know the only ones we had was Ten 20 South. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : We also heard that Ten South 23 wasn't supposed to be utilized anymore. It was 24 actually supposed to be phased out. 25 MR. : It was supposed to be what? EFTA00119443 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 426 1 MR. : Phased out. 2 MR. : What do you mean phased out? 3 MR. ItHe was actually brought up, 4 brought out during the time, after 9/11, to 5 house terrorists inmates. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : Have you ever heard anything 8 about the fact that no one was supposed to be 9 housed up there anymore (Indiscernible 10 *04:57:12)? 11 MR. : No. It's not -. It's not 12 to house terrorists"- inmates. It's to house 13 inmates that have a SAMs on them. So, mostly, 14 the most of the inmates that have SAMs on them 15 are terrorist inmates or, you know, maybe an 16 inmate housed for espionage. You know? And 17 then -- 18 MR. : Was it supposed to have been 19 phased out due to PREA concerns? 20 MR. : I didn't -. I don't know 21 anything about that. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. The next one is, 25 the report also shows that, "A review was done EFTA00119444 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 427 1 regarding the overtime conducted by the C.O.s 2 at the MCC, and the shortage of staff." It 3 doesn't say much about it. Do you know what 4 the overall team's finding was? Do you agree 5 that there was a shortage of staff? 6 MR. : Yeah, there was. I mean 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : I'll give you an example. 9 We were short staffed. I was relieving 10 officers on their posts, and on some weekends, 11 I would come in and work a post. I mean -- 12 MR. : You, as the warden? 13 MR. : -- as the warden. I mean, 14 we had -. We were short. I mean -. 15 MR. : Now, is there a Was 16 there a way to rectify that issue? 17 MR. : We could. I mean, hiring. 18 We had, I mean, 40 or 50 staff on OWCP 19 (Phonetic Sp. *04:58:23). 20 MR. : And can you explain what 21 that is? 22 MR. : Workers compensation. 23 MR. : Oh. And what was the 24 percentage there, you said? 25 MR. : About 40 or 50 staff on it. EFTA00119445 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4/ 1 MR. : 40 or 50 staff. 2 MR. : Yeah. On there -. 3 MR. : Did they seem to abuse 4 that? 5 MR. : We all knew it was an abuse. 6 I mean, we -. We had even had conversations 7 with the IG about, you know, you're going to 8 the same doctor. But I mean, I understand. So 9 10 MR. HAYES: So -- 11 MR. : -- every -. 12 MR. HAYES: they were all using the 13 same doctor? 14 MR. : The same . But again, 15 I understand, every agency is short. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : I mean, so, we just had that 18 constant problem. 19 MR. HAYES: That's, like -- 20 MR. : You know? 21 MR. HAYES: -- they use some of these -. 22 Some things, they use the same expert witnesses 23 all the time. 24 MR. : Right. The hiring. We had 25 a lot of department heads that we would use to EFTA00119446 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 429 1 cover. Some of my associate wardens, you know, 2 would cover. So, it was just, you know, had to 3 make do with what we had. 4 MR. : Now, was there, like, a 5 plan in place to try to get you guys up to 6 proper staffing levels? 7 MR. : I mean, we were working on 8 hiring. You know, and getting people in. But 9 it's a process. You know? To get somebody 10 hired, it takes between six and eight months. 11 MR. : And were there a number 12 of people in the pipeline? 13 MR. : Not really. I mean, we went 14 out and did recruiting, because we were 15 competing with other agencies. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : You know? Other agencies 18 are hiring, you know, and we had incentives. 19 You know? To, to get people on. So, it was 20 just a matter of, you know, getting people on 21 board. 22 MR. : And do you think it could 23 have been handled better by some, in some way, 24 by the BOP, in order to rectify that issue? 25 MR. : There's certain things we EFTA00119447 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 don't control. Staffing. You know, the 2 budget. We don't -. I don't -. We don't 3 control that. I mean, we can turn around and 4 say, I want this, but once the law is passed, 5 and it said, this is what you are getting, you 6 don't We need to work with what we've got. 7 MR. : No, and I understand 8 that, that as, like, as far as the BOP goes. 9 But I mean, the MCC, especially, you know, 10 covering SDNYEp2tcin in a lio *05:00:18), and 11 having such high-profile inmates. Was there - 12 do you think that there could have been 13 anything done better, though, by the BOP, to 14 make sure that your institution, specifically 15 MCC, was better staffed? 16 MR. : You could - so, let's go TDY 17 - we couldn't really, couldnt TDY to a point, 18 but then, there are other institutions around 19 the agency that were, you know, the staffing 20 was an issue. So, they can't send somebody out 21 to help, you know? And then, it just brought 22 down the finding. I mean, and getting people 23 to clear your background. Not everybody can 24 clear a background to work. I mean, yeah, we 25 can go out in the street and say, hey, we got a EFTA00119448 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 431 1 job for you, but can you pass the guidelines? 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : And a lot of time, do we 4 know. 5 MR. : All right. So, we're 6 literally less than half of a page left. 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : But this next one is just 9 going to be, I'm going to have you just kind of 10 read it -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. along with me because 13 it's so long. "He was also an inmate who had 14 risk factors for assault by other inmates, and 15 did require careful selection for appropriate 16 cellmates. Although these issues were noted, 17 well documented, and communicated, a failure 18 still occurred by allowing inmate Epstein to be 19 placed in the cell alone. Although feasible 20 for an inmate to effectuate suicide while 21 housed with a cellmate, the odds of this 22 occurring are significantly lowered when housed 23 with another inmate." 24 The report continues. "It is apparent 25 various staff at the institution made a point EFTA00119449 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 432 1 of ensuring inmate Epstein had an assigned 2 cellmate. The captain personally instructed 3 the lieutenants, individually. A mass email 4 was distributed by psychology, and it is 5 apparent some SHU officers were aware. 6 Although many people acknowledge this is an 7 important fact, ultimately, the final staff 8 responsible for not - or did not ensure the 9 requirement was met, including vital 10 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 11 a mass email does not ensure -." (Indiscernible 12 *05:02:20) -- 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : "including vital 15 directives, such as a cellmate requirement, and 16 a mass email does not ensure those who truly 17 need that information do, in fact, receive it 18 timely. In this case, inmate Epstein was 19 actually placed with a cellmate when removed 20 from psychological -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- observation. After 23 that moment, it is clear there was no 24 additional written directive, or a fail safe 25 system established, to ensure inmate Epstein EFTA00119450 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 - 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : -- would have had a 3 cellmate going forward." So, I guess, first 4 and foremost, do you believe, probably the 5 primary reason why Epstein was able to take his 6 own life was because he didn't have a cellmate? 7 On top of the fact that they weren't conducting 8 rounds in SHU? And counts. 9 MR. : I can't speak to the 10 mindset. Only I can speak to is, he killed 11 himself. 12 MR. : But what I'm asking is, 13 would it have certainly helped prevent his 14 death by one) having an inmate; and two) having 15 rounds and counts conducted? 16 MR. : Oh, if people did their job. 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : You know? And -. 19 MR. : Like, obviously, if he 20 killed himself, he did it. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : But the way that the 23 government can better ensure that that doesn't 24 happen is by ensuring that, when it is mandated 25 that someone has a cellmate, they have a EFTA00119451 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 434 1 cellmate. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : And when they do their 4 job, like you just said, they conduct rounds 5 and counts, that -. Is that what you believe 6 would have helped keep him alive today, if, you 7 know, from the government perspective? 8 MR. : I mean, again, I'm going to 9 just say, I can't say what would have kept him 10 alive, but I will say, you know, if people made 11 their rounds, did their job, followed 12 instructions that they were given, then it 13 might have -. Could have minimized what, you 14 know -- 15 MR. HAYES: The risk. 16 MR. : -- you know, what happened. 17 The risk. But I can't talk to, you know, if he 18 would have done it or not done it. If that 19 would have stopped him. 20 MR. : Now, as far as this last 21 sentence, what they wrote, "After that moment, 22 it is clear there was no additional written 23 directive, or fail safe system established to 24 ensure inmate Epstein would have a cellmate 25 going forward." What do you think could have EFTA00119452 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 435 1 been done, and who should have done it? 2 MR. : So, directives and the 3 information was conveyed to people verbally, 4 documented on forms, on what you are supposed 5 to do. There was signs up. 6 MR. : Now, what signs do you 7 know that were up? 8 MR. : No, I mean, the one you read 9 to me, about the sign about doing the 30-minute 10 checks. 11 MR. : Oh, I think this is 12 MR. : So -. 13 MR. : -- specifically talking 14 about the cellmate requirement. 15 MR. : No. I mean, (Indiscernible 16 *05:05:02) cellmate requirement. It was put 17 out by the captain. Directives were given. 18 Staff was spoken to. You know, it's kind of 19 boiled down to people not doing their job. I 20 mean, if I tell you, you have to do something, 21 it's given to you in writing, what more do we 22 have to do? 23 MR. : Well, that's kind of my 24 question, because the BOP is the one who wrote 25 that finding. So, I'm curious myself -- EFTA00119453 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I mean, that's -- 2 MR. : -- what you think -- 3 MR. : I mean -- 4 MR. : -- that could have been 5 done. 6 MR. : -- that's somebody's 7 opinion. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : You know? That's a Monday 10 morning quarterback that came in and make an 11 opinion. I don't know what their ulterior 12 motive is -- 13 MR. : Can you think of any -- 14 MR. for making it. 15 MR. -- anything that wasn't 16 done? Can you think of anything, like, oh, if 17 this could have helped, or maybe he should have 18 done that? As far as the cellmate requirement. 19 MR. : I can't think of anything 20 they should have done. 21 MR. : No. Okay. 22 MR. : Can I ask? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : I know it's bound to - based 25 on once everything comes up, these are EFTA00119454 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 questions that they're going to have. So, I 2 got to ask. I know you mentioned that you 3 couldn't have secondary selection. Like, 4 another replacement for Reyes, because inmates 5 keep moving. But is it possible that a list 6 should have been created? That, you know, 7 should have told the SHU officers, hey, listen, 8 if Reyes ever gets removed, here is a list of 9 maybe possible five inmates that you could 10 choose from? 11 MR. : But I mean, under, you know, 12 different inmates, we can do that, but he was a 13 high-profile inmate that 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : I would have had to get 16 that name and run it up to the department, to 17 see if it was okay. I4t wasn't just him. I 18 was going to arbitrarily say, listen, I need 19 you to, you know, we're going to put this guy 20 . I was, just like with the other ones, sent 21 it up to the department. So, again, it would 22 have been based on who was there. 23 MR. : And because -- 24 MR. : If that. 25 MR. : -- because of that EFTA00119455 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 438 1 extreme detail that had to go into selection, I 2 think what is asking you is, should have 3 there been a list of names that the higher ups 4 signed off on, in case someone was removed, 5 they went to court, they didn't come back, they 6 were transferred, things like this. 7 MR. : Like, that's what they list 8 as a fail safe. Like -- 9 MR. : Right. I mean -- 10 MR. : -- as a precautionary 11 measure. 12 MR. : -- it could have been, but 13 then it would have still been based on who was 14 there that day, at the time. 15 MR. : And that's why I think 16 he's saying, like, a list of five people versus 17 one or two. So, if this person is not -- 18 MR. : I don't -- 19 MR. : -- there, what about this 20 one? That one is not there, either. But maybe 21 this guy. You know, that type of thing. Or 22 did you -- 23 MR. : I just -- 24 MR. : -- just stand by a hunch? 25 MR. : -- yeah. I just, I just EFTA00119456 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 439 1 feel, like, you know -- 2 MR. HAYES: Don't know. 3 MR. : -- it was, I can't, no. I 4 mean -- 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- again, I'm operating in 7 hindsight. I mean, at the time -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- you know, that's what was 10 done. 11 MR. : Yeah, we know you do. 12 MR. : Yeah. And we are 13 absolutely asking you to operate in hindsight. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Saying, like 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- Monday morning 18 quarterbacking -- 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : -- yourself and your own 21 institution, I get it. But, like, Monday 22 morning quarterbacking this situation -- 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : -- what do you think 25 they, you know, they are referring to this as EFTA00119457 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 440 1 the BOP, and we are not the experts. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : We're coming in. But BOP 4 is saying this. I'm just saying, what do they 5 mean by this? 6 MR. : Right. But 7 MR. : And what are some things 8 that could have been done? 9 MR. : -- but those are individuals 10 that are coming in, looking at a situation, 11 that weren't deeply involved in it. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : You know, they weren't the 14 ones that were told, hey, okay, I'm talking to 15 my boss, and it's going all the way up to the 16 department. That wasn't That wasn't privy 17 to them. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : That was a need to know 20 basis. 21 MR. : But unfortunately, everyone 22 is who going to eventually look at this case 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. -- is going to be doing the 25 same exact thing as they are. EFTA00119458 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 441 1 MR. : No. But what I'm saying is, 2 if we're looking at assessing the situation on 3 what happened in real time, that's what I'm 4 talking about. So, in real time, now, if they 5 had known that, hey, you know what? These 6 names had to go up and be, you know, vetted at 7 the same time, maybe it would have been a 8 different thought process. 9 MR. : And was it possible - and 10 maybe you discussed this - was it possible 11 that, hey, listen, the SHU officers could have 12 replaced -? Did they have the ability to 13 replace Reyes, if they wanted to, or did they 14 have to come up the chain of command, for the 15 chain of command to tell them who the new 16 inmate -? 17 MR. : They were instructed, hey, 18 let us know when - where he's to have a 19 cellmate at all time - and to notify, let 20 someone know. Because again, due to the 21 individual that he was, you just don't want to 22 throw anybody. 23 MR. : Okay. But doesn't that kind 24 of hinder them from taking action? Let's say, 25 at that point on that day, you are not in the EFTA00119459 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 institution, Captain was there, I 2 understand. 3 MR. : There was an acting warden 4 there. You had the executive staff there. 5 Just because the warden is not there doesn't 6 mean the institution doesn't run. That's why 7 you have, you know, people acting on your 8 behalf. You know? That could make -- 9 MR. : So, maybe -- 10 MR. those decisions. 11 MR. : -- maybe, what 12 you are trying to ask is, would somebody, since 13 it sounds like you would have to go over your 14 head to even make that decision, has to go to 15 the regional director level, would the 16 associate warden have the ability to go to the 17 regional director, or would have they known to 18 go to the regional director? 19 MR. : So, let's say that did 20 happen, right? They would have 21 MR. : Well, it did happen. 22 MR. no, I'm saying, as far as 23 finding out that, hey, he needed a cellmate. 24 So, even though I'm off that day, I'm still 25 working. 4 z; EFTA00119460 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 443 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Because I got the government 3 phone. And they're going to call me and tell 4 me, hey, this is what we got going on. He 5 needs a cellmate. And then, I would be, like, 6 okay, let's see what we have, so we can send it 7 up. 8 MR. : So, basically, you were 9 always available. Someone was always 10 available, that if the proper notification was 11 being made, up the chain of command -- 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- a newer inmate could have 14 been assigned. 15 MR. : That's why I carried it. 16 That's why I had (Indiscernible *05:10:23). 17 So, to, I get calls all hours of the night, 18 even if I'm off, I'm not off. If there is an 19 issue, an emergency, I'm called. Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. And if someone does 21 ask, should the SHU officers have been given 22 the ability? Your answer to that would have 23 been, you have that phone with you, someone 24 should have made that notification. So -- 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00119461 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 444 1 MR. : -- someone in the higher -- 2 MR. : And they -- 3 MR. : -- of command. 4 MR. : -- and they would contact 5 me. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, it was not, like, I'm 8 off on paper. Because I am using my leave. 9 But I'm still on duty because you can call me 10 on my phone. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : My last two questions. 14 Based on your conversation, and after this -- 15 MR. HAYES: Thank God. 16 MR. : -- based on your 17 conversations, and this after-action report 18 that we just reviewed those topics, what are 19 the failures of the BOP that allowed Epstein to 20 die? 21 MR. : I'm not -. I mean, that's - 22 . I think -. I can't -. That's -. You know, 23 like, I - again - I'm speculating, and I'm 24 giving personal opinions. I'm not -- 25 MR. : Again, and I'm not asking EFTA00119462 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 445 1 you to say why he killed himself. 2 MR. : Right. 3 MR. : Or if he could have. 4 What I'm saying is, what are the failures of 5 the BOP? 6 MR. HAYES: He killed himself because he 7 ain't stupid. He said to himself, holy shit, 8 I'm going to spend the rest of my life in 9 prison. 10 MR. : Yeah, yeah, and I'm not - 11 12 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 13 MR. : -- and I'm not, 14 absolutely not asking -- 15 MR. HAYES: No. 16 MR. : -- as far as what is his 17 mental state, and could have he had the ability 18 19 MR. : But I can't -- 20 MR. : -- but are the failures, 21 as you see them, after we reviewed all this, 22 that you believe -. What did the BOP do wrong, 23 in this instance? Unless you don't think that 24 they did anything wrong. 25 MR. : No. I'm not saying they did EFTA00119463 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 446 1 anything wrong. But again, these are things 2 that you are going to find. I mean, right now, 3 I can look at it and say, we're looking at 4 people not making rounds and all that. But 5 there's still an investigation going on. So, I 6 don't want to sit here and speculate 7 MR. : No, but we are the ones - 8 9 MR. : -- and say -- 10 MR. : -- doing the 11 investigation, and -- 12 MR. right. 13 MR. : -- you are the leader of 14 the organization that, you know, of the place. 15 That's why this is a very relevant question for 16 you to answer because -- 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : -- you know, this was the 19 facility that you oversaw. 20 MR. : Right. So 21 MR. : So, we're just -. All 22 I'm simply asking is, what do you think the 23 problems are, as you see them? After you just 24 heard everything we just talked about for, it 25 seems like the last five hours. EFTA00119464 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 447 1 MR. : No. I mean, if we would 2 talk - I mean, you're not counting. You didn't 3 make your rounds in that unit, to check on an 4 inmate. I mean, that is, that is the basics 5 right there. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : You know, we can talk about 8 all the other stuff, but the basic is, you did 9 not go and make those rounds. 10 MR. : And would you also, 11 though, add to that the fact that they didn't 12 replace Reyes 13 MR. : Oh. 14 MR. : -- like they were 15 supposed to? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Okay. What actions could 18 the BOP have taken to possibly prevent 19 Epstein's death? 20 MR. HAYES: It doesn't sound like 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. HAYES: -- still, you were nervous. 23 MR. : Totally. 24 MR. HAYES: That's all. I mean, you could 25 have -- EFTA00119465 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 448 1 MR. : It just, it sounds like 2 they quote, the answer would be, conduct your 3 rounds, conduct your counts. Get a -- 4 MR. : Do your job. 5 MR. : -- do your job. Get 6 Reyes -. 7 MR. HAYES: 99 times out of a 100, it 8 wouldn't have happened. 9 MR. : Right. So -- 10 MR. HAYES: You know, it's -. 11 MR. : -- but in this case, it 12 does seem, like, a lot of this was a result of 13 - like you keep on saying - people not doing 14 their jobs. 15 MR. HAYES: Jobs. 16 MR. : But I mean -- 17 MR. HAYES: Yeah. 18 MR. : -- but in all fairness, 19 we've had, since Epstein died, and before, 20 we've had almost 60 suicides. So, it's the 21 same reoccurring theme. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : You know, people not making 24 their rounds and doing what they're supposed to 25 do. EFTA00119466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 449 1 MR. : And is that the same 2 thing that's happening with them, they're not 3 doing their rounds or counts? 4 MR. : I mean, and nine times out 5 of ten, every time you look into something, it 6 is a matter of them doing checks, you know, not 7 counting, you know? So, it's the normal 8 things. 9 MR. : Are these other 10 instances, where we find out that they didn't 11 have cellmates? 12 MR. : Single cell. You know, I 13 mean, you have access to the data. I mean, you 14 look at it, and you look at the numbers of 15 single cell inmates. But there is instances 16 where, you know, sometimes you do have to put 17 somebody in a cell single. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : But, you know, there is 20 other suicides, and they don't stop. You know? 21 Some of it is, you know, staff had no control 22 over it, and some staff had control over it. 23 MR. : And I do apologize. 24 said that was the last question, but I guess I 25 should ask. In Monday morning quarterbacking EFTA00119467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 450 1 yourself, is there anything that you should 2 have done differently? 3 MR. : Hmm. 4 MR. : As the MCC warden? 5 MR. : As far as what? This 6 situation? 7 MR. : Yeah. Just anything that 8 you feel, like, oh, you know, like, I should 9 have done this better, or I could have done 10 this better. That type of thing. 11 MR. : I can't. 12 MR. : Just for the record, let 13 me just -- 14 MR. : I can't think of anything 15 for that. 16 MR. : -- okay. Anything else 17 you have? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. HAYES: That's it? 20 MR. : Anything that -- 21 MR. HAYES: Jesus Christ. 22 MR. : -- you wanted to add to 23 anything, Warden, anything that -- 24 MR. HAYES: I didn't know if you said 25 MR. : -- we missed, or you want EFTA00119468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 451 1 to -? 2 MR. HAYES: -- generally. 3 MR. : No. No. That's it. 4 MR. : Is there anything you think 5 we missed asking about? 6 MR. HAYES: Don't ask him that. 7 MR. : Not that I can think of. 8 MR. HAYES: You have a right to remain 9 silent. (Indiscernible *05:15:06). Guys, 10 listen, you know? 11 MR. : Yeah. No. We got you. 12 MR. HAYES: Like, I was impressed that you 13 did that. He couldn't go through this. I 14 would have been to the bathroom, like, I got to 15 do this, I got to do this. I mean, I got to 16 make a phone call. I want to take a nap. He 17 just sat there and answered all the questions. 18 I mean, he's not -- 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. HAYES: -- even sweating under his 21 armpits. 22 MR. : And thank you very much - 23 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- for your cooperation - EFTA00119469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 MR. : No. I appreciate -- 3 MR. : Especially -- 4 MR. : -- you guys. 5 MR. : -- the recording is 6 showing that this is five hours and 15 minutes. 7 So, this was an epic, epic interview. It is 8 currently 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, October 27th, 9 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 10 , and I am turning off the recorder. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00119470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 2 3 4 EFTA00119471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 454 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00119472