EFTA00125466.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 AUGUST 12, 2019 21 22 23 24 25 FENTON TRANSCRIPTION 28720 Roadside Drive, Suite 250 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 991-8002 EFTA00125466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00125467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : Today is Monday, August 2 12. The following will be a voluntary 3 interview of BOP Warden in 4 furtherance of OIG investigation to be 5 determined, for the purpose of transcription, 6 will now identify all present in the interview. 7 I'll ask everyone to say and spell their last 8 name, as well as identify their working title 9 and employer. 10 I am Special Agent 11 , Office of the Inspector General. 12 MR. III: Special Agent Antonio III, III- 13 I, with the FBI. 14 MR. -: Warden, 15 Federal Bureau of Prisons. Spelling of the 16 name is first name is last name is 17 18 19 MR. : Thank you. Warden 20 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : -- you have reviewed and 23 signed Department of Justice OIG Form 226-2 24 which is Warnings and Assurances of Employees 25 Request to Provide Information on a Voluntary EFTA00125468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 Basis. Do you have any questions about this 2 form? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : Would you like time to 5 review it with an attorney, or would you like 6 an attorney here? 7 MR. : For now, I don't need an 8 attorney. 9 MR. : Okay. Are you currently 10 under the influence of any substances, or is 11 there any reason to prevent you from fully 12 understanding my questions and answering 13 truthfully today? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : I'll now swear you to the 16 statements you're about to make. Please raise 17 your hand and repeat after me. 18 19 MR. : I, 20 MR. : Hereby solemnly swear or 21 affirm. 22 MR. : Hereby solemnly swear or 23 affirm. 24 MR. : That the statements that 25 I'm about to make. EFTA00125469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That the statements I'm 2 about to make. 3 MR. : Shall be the truth and the 4 whole truth. 5 MR. : Shall be the truth and the 6 whole truth. 7 MR. : Thank you, sir. 8 MR. : Um-hum. 9 MR. : Warden would you mind 10 telling us a little bit about your career with 11 BOP? When you started, how you became a 12 Warden? 13 MR. : Uh -- 14 MR. : How you moved up the 15 ranks. 16 MR. : I started out as a 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Great. How long have you EFTA00125470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 been the Warden? 2 MR. : I've been here since May of 3 2018. 4 MR. : Okay, great. Just, your 5 role, you've done a lot of internal 6 investigations with the prison and you've 7 worked with the Department of Justice for 8 MR. : Um-hum. 9 MR. : -- moving forward, just as 10 a note for the record, you're aware that 11 failure to be honest with us today would be 12 considered a criminal offense; correct? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay, great. Let's talk a 15 little bit about some overall policies at the 16 prison to start with. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, actually let me back 19 up. We're here today to talk about, 20 specifically Jeffrey Epstein. 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : The inmate. 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : Would you mind just 25 telling us a little bit about when, your EFTA00125471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 understanding of when he arrived and that type 2 of, when he arrived, how he was placed, where 3 he was placed, and the reasons behind that? 4 MR. : I don't remember the 5 specific date he arrived, but we didn't, what 6 happened was, we weren't told that he was going 7 to be coming to the institution. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : When he initially came, he 10 was dropped off on the weekend, and we didn't 11 find out until Monday, myself, that he had been 12 placed at the institution. And from then on, 13 we, you know, went through the whole process of 14 the screening, his medical stuff. Just normal 15 procedures that we follow and (Indiscernible 16 *00:04:04). 17 MR. : Okay. Now when you say 18 "he was dropped off over the weekend", when 19 somebody arrives at the facility, what's the 20 normal -- 21 MR. : I mean typically if 22 somebody's that high profile -- 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : -- we should've been 25 notified and said hey, he's coming in. We EFTA00125472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 weren't. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know, I mean, we saw it 4 on the news, but it didn't say. They just said 5 they had him in custody, but we didn't get any 6 formal, I didn't get any formal notice that he 7 had been brought into the institution. 8 So, he was dropped off, and you know, the 9 Lieutenant on shift processed him in and 10 brought him into the institution. We didn't 11 find out or realize it until Monday. 12 MR. : So, it was Monday that you 13 first were officially made aware of it? 14 MR. : That I was made aware. You 15 know, we found out, and I don't remember if it 16 was from looking at the news reports, we put it 17 together that he had been brought into the 18 institution. We went through our Monday 19 morning meeting that we went through. So, 20 that's when -- 21 MR. : When he first arrived, was 22 he placed in general population? Do you know 23 where he was placed? 24 MR. : I don't recall where he was 25 placed when he came in. EFTA00125473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : At some point, he was 2 placed in Special Housing Unit? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Known as the SHU. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : how did he end up there? 7 MR. : Well, he was a new 8 commitment. He was high profile. So, we 9 placed him in the Special Housing Unit so we 10 can further evaluate, you know, his status. Is 11 he ready for general population? And we do 12 that with all inmates, but -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- and then to see, okay, 15 any separation issues. Any threats to him, 16 before we put him out there in general 17 population. 18 MR. : Was he ever in genera] 19 population? 20 MR. : I don't recall. I don't, 21 I'm not sure if it might've been the first day 22 when he came in. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : But I'm not sure, so I mean, 25 I would have to look at the 37 to confirm. EFTA00125474 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : But as far as you know, 2 that Monday, the first business day after the 3 weekend he was initially dropped off. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : From that point forward, 6 was he ever in general population? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. What are the 9 policies in terms of, or is there policy that 10 dictates when somebody goes into general 11 population from the SHU after the first 12 arrival? 13 MR. : Well, what we do is we 14 evaluate the individual to see if they're ready 15 for general population, if they can hang, you 16 know -- 17 MR. : Um-hum. 18 MR. : -- if they can populate. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And it's a number of 21 factors. It depends. I mean, if I have a gang 22 member coming in, I'm taking into consideration 23 separation issues on it. If it's, you know, 24 somebody that might've been fraud or bank 25 fraud, then we determine if it's any issues of EFTA00125475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 them going into the general population. So, 2 it's a case-by-case basis on how we determine 3 it. 4 MR. : Okay. What are the 5 policies in terms of when you're notified if 6 someone enters Special Housing Unit or is 7 discharged from Special Housing Unit? 8 MR. : Well what it is is, it's 9 routed the individual, it's called a Release 10 Form. So, several people sign it. They review 11 it. I believe psychology, CMC, the Captain, 12 and it goes to the Associate Warden and then 13 they sign what we call is a Kick-Out. Meaning 14 everybody's reviewed it and said, okay, this 15 person is appropriate for general population. 16 MR. : Okay. For Mr. Epstein, 17 after that, he was never put in general 18 population; correct? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Was the determination to 21 keep him in Special Housing? What was the 22 communication that goes on there? 23 MR. : Well we, now initially when 24 he came in, it's the goal to determine, okay, 25 can they go to general population. EFTA00125476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, between evaluating him, 3 at the same time, we're looking at saying, 4 okay, can he go to general population. 5 MR. : Um-hum. 6 MR. : So, it's a dual role that 7 we're going to -- 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : But I had gotten word, and I 10 don't recall the date, where from my Regional 11 Director which stated he's not to go to general 12 population until further notice. 13 MR. : The Regional Director, 14 where is that in the chain of command for BOP? 15 MR. : We have five regional 16 offices. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Each region has a Regional 19 Director. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : This is the Northeast 22 Region. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Where we have 21 25 institutions. So, he supervises and is in EFTA00125477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 charge of the 21 institutions. 2 MR. : Okay. So, is he 3 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:08:37). 4 MR. : -- your direct supervisor? 5 MR. : He's my director supervisor. 6 MR. : Okay. Who is that? 7 MR. -: (phonetic sp.). 8 MR. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And Mr. told you, 11 do you recall if it was verbally or an email? 12 Phone call? 13 MR. : We had talked about it, too, 14 but I would have to check if there was an email 15 to go with it. But we did talk and said, hey, 16 we're going to hold off on putting him out in 17 general population. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you recall when 19 you officially were, you and Mr. , spoke 20 about this? 21 MR. : I don't want to give you the 22 wrong date. But it was within that, you know, 23 maybe a couple weeks after he arrived. 24 MR. : Okay. So, it was a few 25 weeks after he arrived -- EFTA00125478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : Okay. After Mr. 3 told you to keep him, or it was agreed upon 4 MR. : Um-hum. 5 MR. : -- to keep him in Special 6 Housing Unit. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Who did you notify that he 9 was to stay in the Special Housing Unit? How 10 does that communication -- 11 MR. : So, what it does is I get my 12 exec staff together -- 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : -- which is my Associate 15 Wardens, the Captain, my exec, and we have our 16 meetings, and I tell them he's not, you know, 17 lay out the specific instructions. He's not to 18 go out to general population. And -- 19 MR. : Were there, sorry. 20 MR. : Go ahead. 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : And that's basically how we 23 start. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00125479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Were there any other 2 specific directions or instructions given to 3 the staff regarding him? 4 MR. : Well, so at the time of him 5 staying in there, we had to find him initially 6 a roommate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, and it's hard especially 9 in Special Housing Unit when you've got gang 10 members in there that are not appropriate to be 11 housed with. So, we came up with, I came up 12 with , who was in there. White 13 male, probably be able to cope with him. And 14 that's typically how we, you know, that's part 15 of the evaluation process. 16 MR. : Is it standard for inmates 17 in Special Housing Unit to have cellmates? 18 MR. : We typically would like for 19 them to have it. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : But certain situations 22 dictate that they can. If an inmate's a total 23 separation from a group, and we get word from 24 US Attorney's office or the arresting agents 25 that, hey, he's to be totally separated, then EFTA00125480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 they would be housed by themselves. They could 2 have an incident in the institution, you know, 3 for example our gang members, somebody has an 4 issue, and for example, the Bloods, then we 5 have to say hey, let's separate him from there. 6 You know? 7 MR. : Was there any directions 8 specifically that Mr. Epstein was to have a 9 cellmate at all times? 10 MR. : From psychology when 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- said hey, that he's 13 required, he needs to have a cellmate at all 14 times. 15 MR. : Okay. And that occurred 16 later on? When he first arrived, there was no 17 specific directions regarding that; correct? 18 MR. : No, it wasn't. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Wait, let me. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : You mean when he first came 23 in were we talking about him having a cellmate? 24 MR. : Initially. 25 MR. : I don't recall any talks EFTA00125481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 about him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Initially, and trying to 4 figure out when he first came in, how he was 5 housed. I don't recall how he was housed when 6 he first came in, but -- 7 MR. : Okay. The MCC is no 8 stranger to high profile 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- inmates. Generally 11 speaking, how do you normally, or generally 12 handle these type of high profile inmates? Any 13 other special considerations or concerns. How 14 does this work? 15 MR. : Again, you come in. We 16 evaluate him to determine, okay, if they can go 17 out to general population or not. We've had, 18 you know, we've had a bunch that come in that 19 were able to go out. We had (phonetic 20 sp.), you know, the phone that, I don't know if 21 you recall, the one that 22 23 MR. III: (Indiscernible *00:12:41). 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Him. So, when he first came EFTA00125482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in, you know, he was high profile. So, we 2 brought him in to determine 3 FEMALE VOICE: Excuse me. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 FEMALE VOICE: Can you guys step out here 6 for just a moment? 7 MR. : We, pausing the interview 8 at 10:55 a.m. (tape paused). 9 We're resuming the interview with Warden 10 11 MR. -: 12 MR. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. (Indiscernible *00:00:14) 15 The time is now 10:56. Joining the interview 16 room is Assisting United States Attorney from 17 the Southern District of New York, 18 19 MS. 20 MR. , I apologize. 21 Can you spell your name for transcription 22 purposes? 23 MS. : Sure. 24 Thanks. 25 MR. : Thank you. Before we were EFTA00125483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 just going over some of the overall high- 2 profile inmates and the general -- 3 MR. : Um-hum. 4 MR. : -- evaluation of them. 5 Going back to, you said earlier that a few 6 weeks had occurred. You and the Regional 7 Director discussed keeping Epstein in the 8 Special Housing Unit. 9 MR. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : How often was the Regional 11 Director being briefed on Epstein? 12 MR. : I guess the situation 13 dictated it. If something happened, then we'd 14 notify him, or he needed some questions for 15 him, he would call me. But I don't want to, 16 don't recall the specific amount of times. - 17 we were in contact. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 MR. : Frequent contact. 20 MR. : Okay. How often were you, 21 are you notified differently of high-profile 22 inmates or how often were you being aware or 23 notified of Epstein's housing situation? 24 MR. : Well, I mean, he was in the 25 Special Housing Unit. So, I knew where he was. EFTA00125484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, it wasn't like I had to 3 be updated as to where he was. I knew where he 4 was. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : I mean, I knew that he went 7 on his attorney visits, spent the whole day 8 there. Would be the first one in, last one 9 out. So, I mean, that's what I knew. And then 10 I kind of (Indiscernible *00:02:06) with the 11 attorneys. I had some outside attorneys 12 complain about, you know, they were taking up 13 the attorney room. So, I knew that was, you 14 know, those issues were coming up with the 15 attorney room. 16 MR. : Okay. Going back to 17 general policies at the -- 18 MR. : Um-hum. 19 MR. : -- within the BOP, 20 actually when Epstein arrive -- 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : I think we already 23 covered this, but just to, were any special 24 arrangements or considerations given to him? 25 MR. : As far as -- EFTA00125485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : Obviously you said earlier 2 he was put in the SHU on Monday. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : After, was it, at that 5 point, was there any issues that you're aware 6 of regarding him? Anything that you needed to 7 be aware of other than just who he was? 8 MR. : No. Just who he was and the 9 basic screening. The intake screening. 10 MR. : Okay. At the time he 11 first arrived, did you have any, was there any 12 notification of any mental health concerns? 13 MR. : No, not that I know of. 14 MR. : Okay. How 15 MR. : Are you talking about the 16 weekend he came in, or 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:03:19). 19 MR. : First arrival. 20 MR. : That weekend, I don't know. 21 But I know afterwards, he was medically 22 assessed and they were, you know, our health 23 service department assessed him and he, I think 24 he might have told him that he had certain 25 medications. EFTA00125486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. When -- 2 MR. : -- that he was taking. 3 MR. : When inmates come into the 4 MCC, are they all screened for mental health 5 issues or medical issues? 6 MR. : Well, yes. They come in, 7 you're screened for your medical. The unit 8 team screens you and psychology screens you. 9 But -- 10 MR. : What timeframe does that 11 occur? 12 MR. : Typically like with him, he 13 came in on the weekend. So, it depends if 14 there was a psychologist. Maybe the next day 15 someone would go screen him, the on-call 16 psychologist. But, you know, or Monday if 17 someone came in. But typically the on-call 18 psychologist is there through the weekend and 19 will screen them. 20 MR. : Who is notified of the 21 results of those screenings? 22 MR. : of? 23 MR. : Of the medical screen and 24 psychological screenings, who gets notified of 25 that? EFTA00125487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MR. : As far as what? If they 2 find something in there? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Like what would be an 5 example? I mean 6 MR. : Any medical concerns that 7 people need to be aware of. Any psychological 8 issues. How does that information get 9 disseminated? 10 MR. : Because when we talk about 11 medical issues, some of that falls under 12 privacy issues. 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : So, you know, it's not going 15 to be divulged as to -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- just like that. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : But as far as psychological, 20 if it was something that psychologists did an 21 interview and said, hey, there's a mental 22 health issue or something, then she would, you 23 know, she would let her Associate Warden know. 24 She would let me know that, hey, there's some 25 issues. EFTA00125488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 MR. : Okay. And when he first 2 arrived, were you made aware of any medical or 3 mental issues regarding him? 4 MR. : Mental health, I don't 5 recall any mental health. But I was told that 6 he was on certain medications or whatever. But 7 it was general. It wasn't 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- anything major. 10 MR. : Okay. And just, and 11 that's a general policy for all inmates that 12 arrive? 13 MR. : The screening, yeah. 14 MR. : Just the medical 15 screening. They all get that? 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Is there any, as a result 18 of those screenings, is there any, does it have 19 any bearing on where they're placed, whether 20 it's special housing or general population? 21 MR. : I mean typically if you do, 22 like I said, if you do an intake screening and 23 the individual comes in and they have no 24 issues, no separation issues, and, you know, 25 then they can populate like anyone else. But EFTA00125489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 if there are issues with them going out in 2 general population; i.e., safety issues, then 3 you would be placed in the Special Housing. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Until we could further 6 evaluate if you could go to general population. 7 MR. : If someone during the 8 mental health screening, the mental health, the 9 psychologist deemed them to be suicidal -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- what are the suicidal 12 watch policies as it relates to that? 13 MR. : So, if the psychologist was 14 to say, hey, they're suicidal, then they would 15 be placed on suicide watch. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Now if the psychologist is 18 not there and someone exhibits suicidal 19 ideations or statements or thoughts, then 20 they're placed on suicide watch. 21 MR. : Can you explain to me what 22 suicide watch is, where it is in the MCC -- 23 MR. : It's on the second floor of 24 the institution, on the same floor of the 25 hospital. EFTA00125490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : And it's a cell, and if you 3 go on suicide watch, you're placed in a smock. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : That covers you and then 6 you're watched for 24 hours. 7 MR. : Now the smock, is that 8 made of paper, or -- 9 MR. : It's cloth. 10 MR. : Cloth? 11 MR. : It's like, you ever see 12 those movies where they have those heavy bomb 13 vests? 14 MR. : Uh -- 15 MR. : It's something, I mean, I 16 don't want to you know, say, but it's something 17 like that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And it just hangs. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : Hangs on them just like 22 that. So -- 23 MR. : And you said they're 24 monitored for 24 hours. How are they, is it -- 25 MR. : There's a companion sitting EFTA00125491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there. An inmate. 2 MR. : In the cell? 3 MR. : No. Outside the cell. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : It's a cell where you sit 6 and observe. 7 MR. : Okay. Is the companion 8 another inmate or a staff? 9 MR. : No, it's a trained inmate 10 companion. Now, we have four cells. If those 11 cells get full, then we have to move them up to 12 the Special Housing Unit and then put a staff 13 watch on them. 14 MR. : Okay. What policies are 15 in place for suicide watch as it relates to 16 staff response, notification, how people get 17 notified, if they're moving from suicide watch 18 to off suicide watch. How does that work? 19 MR. : That works through 20 psychology. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Psychology evaluates and 23 they'll say, okay, we've evaluated him and, you 24 know, wherever we're going, typically you 25 always usually go from the Special Housing Unit EFTA00125492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 to suicide. So, they'd say, okay you know 2 what, they're ready to go back up. 3 MR. : Okay. What role, how does 4 the program, is the psychologist the program 5 coordinator? 6 MR. : The chief psychologist runs 7 the department. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then she has various 10 psychologists that work under her. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And then evaluate because we 13 have a different mission as far as we have a 14 forensic mission. So, we get a lot of forensic 15 studies in the institution. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And then we have a regular 18 psychologist also that handles the inmate 19 population but they work together and they 20 handle everything. 21 MR. : Okay. Who's ultimately 22 responsible for placing somebody on suicide 23 watch or off suicide watch? 24 MR. : Well placing it, a staff 25 member comes and says hey, this guy is EFTA00125493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 suicidal. You can place him on suicide watch. 2 MR. : Okay. Anybody in the 3 institution can do that? 4 MR. : Yeah. If I come upon an 5 inmate that's saying, "Hey, I'm going to kill 6 myself." Okay, we get him on suicide watch. 7 Psychology comes and, you know, evaluates them 8 and then comes up with a plan. 9 MR. : Within the psychology 10 department -- 11 MR. : Um-hum. 12 MR. : -- or the medical 13 department there in mental health, who there 14 ultimately makes that decision? 15 MR. : I believe, and don't quote 16 me on this. I believe the psychologists. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You know, they're trained 19 professionals. So, they can make a decision 20 and they consult with the Chief in, you know, 21 determining okay what's the plan of action to 22 move forward. 23 MR. : And are you, when 24 someone's placed in suicide watch, are you 25 notified of that? EFTA00125494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : Yeah. They send out a form 2 every day stating like who's on suicide watch, 3 who's on psyche observation. So -- 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- we're aware of who it is 6 and then they'll send out a form if there's no 7 one on there. 8 MR. : You said earlier that 9 while on suicide watch, there was an observer. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : How does an inmate become 12 an observer? 13 MR. : It's an inmate companion. 14 MR. : A companion, I'm sorry. 15 MR. : So, it's a trained program. 16 So, they have to go through training. They 17 have to take courses, and then they become 18 eligible to become a companion. 19 MR. : Who authorizes the use of 20 an inmate companion? 21 MR. : The psychology department 22 runs that. So -- 23 MR. : Do you have any input as 24 the Warden in selecting or training or 25 implementing the inmate companion program? EFTA00125495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Does every institution 3 have an inmate companion program? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MS. : Who's the Chief 6 Psychologist? 7 MR. -: (phonetic 8 sp.). 9 MR. : And Ms. is the one 10 who is ultimately responsible for determining 11 if someone is on suicide watch and removing 12 them; correct? 13 MR. : Well in conjunction with our 14 staff. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Because you could be, a 17 psychologist is assigned to the individual when 18 they're working a plan with them. And if they 19 come to the determination that hey, you know 20 what, they no longer need to be on suicide 21 watch. 22 MR. : Okay. But as the clinical 23 director, she's ultimately responsible. 24 MR. : She's not the clinical. 25 She's the Chief Psychologist. EFTA00125496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Clinical Director is a 3 separate position. 4 MR. : Okay. I apologize for 5 that. 6 MR. : That's fine. 7 MR. : Thank you for clarifying. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Who in the medical staff, 10 just for my clarification, who in the medical 11 staff is ultimately responsible for removing 12 somebody from suicide watch? 13 MR. : The psychology department 14 determines to remove somebody from -- 15 MR. : So, who in the psychology 16 department? 17 MR. : Again, it depends on who's 18 evaluating the inmate. 19 MR. : Okay. So -- 20 MR. : And so we have one, two, 21 three, really we have, (Indiscernible 22 *00:12:26) , uh, four. We have four 23 psychologists on staff. 24 MR. : You have four 25 psychologists on staff. And any one of those EFTA00125497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 four can remove somebody? 2 MR. : Can remove somebody. 3 MR. : Do those four have, who's 4 those four supervisors? 5 MR. : Dr. 6 MR. : Dr. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : What authority does she 9 have to overrule them? 10 MR. : And I'm not a psychologist 11 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : -- to know what procedures 14 they use -- 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : -- or what conversation they 17 have to determine if she's going to overrule 18 them. I mean, she's the supervisor, and it's 19 just like with any, you know, profession you 20 have. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : If I come up with some 23 reasoning -- 24 MR. : Um-hum. 25 MR. : In saying hey, I don't agree EFTA00125498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 with your decision, then we debate it and then 2 we ultimately come to a decision. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : As to yay or nay. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, it's kind of the same 7 thing. 8 MR. : While on suicide watch, 9 you said there's a 24-hour companion. What 10 does staff do for the inmates while they're on 11 suicide watch? 12 MR. : Well we have a camera, well 13 they're trained to, there's a phone there. So, 14 let's say something happened where an inmate's 15 trying to do harm to himself. They pick up the 16 phone and they call for assistance, because it 17 goes directly to control center, and we respond 18 accordingly to it. 19 But we also in our control center, while 20 the individual is on suicide watch, there's a 21 camera there. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : To view 24 MR. : What specific training 25 does staff get as it relates to the suicide EFTA00125499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch? 2 MR. : Once a year during our 3 annual training, we have suicide prevention 4 training. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : During our annual training. 7 MR. : And that's required for 8 all -- 9 MR. : All employees. 10 MR. : What does that training 11 cover? 12 MR. : Suicide signs, prevention, 13 coping, just anything pertaining to suicide, 14 sir. Signs to look for. 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : Um -- 17 MR. : Is there any specific 18 staff that are more trained, or specifically 19 trained for this area of the prison? 20 MR. : Our Special Housing Unit 21 staff get quarterly suicide prevention 22 training. 23 MR. : Okay. Is that part of 24 something the MCC does independent, or is that 25 policy dictated? How does that -- EFTA00125500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MR. : That's our policy dictates 2 that they get quarterly training. 3 MR. : Okay. That's BOP policy; 4 correct? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. When someone, you 7 said that any staff member at the BOP can place 8 somebody on suicide watch? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Is there any paperwork or 11 documentation for that that they have to fill 12 out? 13 MR. : No. Basically they'll tell 14 that, you know, that hey we need to place him 15 on watch, and we'll place him on watch, and 16 then we'll contact psychology. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : To come in and talk to them. 19 MR. : Okay. There's no referral 20 that says, "I placed inmate" -- 21 MR. : No. Psychology will handle 22 it -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : -- here and there, in their 25 notes and their documentation that they were EFTA00125501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 placed on it, when they were placed on it. 2 MR. : So, the psychology 3 department is responsible for documenting when 4 people come in in treatment. 5 MR. : We, you know, we have what 6 we call a daily log in the 7 MR. : Um-hum. 8 MR. : -- institution. So, the log 9 would annotate somebody was placed on suicide 10 watch also. 11 MR. : Okay. Is there any 12 specific forms or reports that get filled out 13 when somebody is removed from suicide watch? 14 MR. : I believe psychology would 15 do those forms and saying in their reports why 16 they were removed and if they're ready to be 17 released. 18 MR. : Do you get those forms? 19 MR. : I don't get the special 20 medical ones. I just, with the notification 21 that, you know, with the one that email that 22 goes out -- 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : -- that the individual was 25 released from suicide watch. EFTA00125502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 MR. : Do you get notified, you 2 just said you get notified in the email that 3 somebody's removed or -- 4 MR. : It's an email that the 5 psychology department puts out stating who's on 6 suicide watch, who's been removed. 7 MR. : Is that a daily list? 8 Like they send it once a day, or when someone 9 new comes on and off? How does that 10 MR. : It's a daily one. And -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And it states who's on 13 watch, who's, you know, who's got released, and 14 15 MR. : Who does that get 16 disseminated to? 17 MR. : It's a group. It's a group 18 email that gets sent to all department heads, 19 Captain, Lieutenants, everybody in the need to 20 know. 21 MR. : This is the supervisors 22 within the institution? The Lieutenants, the 23 Captain. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:17:07). 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00125503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 MR. : And, don't quote me on that, 2 but I need to look at the chain -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : -- to see who's actually on 5 it. But -- 6 MR. : But it's not an 7 institution-wide email? 8 MR. : It is kind of sent out 9 institution wide because you have the different 10 departments on it. So, you can say it's 11 institution wide. 12 MR. : Not every person in the 13 institution gets that email, though? 14 MR. : No. I don't -- 15 MR. : Okay. Just not an MCC all 16 type of -- 17 MR. : No, it's not an all staff. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : What is the expectation of 21 the department heads and the supervisors and 22 the Lieutenants and Captains once they get this 23 email? What are they supposed to do with that? 24 MR. : I mean, it's just a 25 notification that the individual's being EFTA00125504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 removed from suicide watch. So, it depends on 2 where they're going. So, if they're going back 3 to Special Housing Unit, so it's notification 4 that hey, this person's been taken off. We 5 have nobody on watch right now. 6 MR. : Okay. Are they supposed 7 to disseminate that? What are they supposed to 8 do with that information? Are they supposed to 9 tell anybody where they -- 10 MR. : Well, I mean when that 11 individual is released -- 12 MR. : Um-hum. 13 MR. : Wherever they're going for, 14 they're going to be notified by psychology that 15 they're coming directly -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- to you. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So, it was just an 20 accountability -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- thing just to know that 23 hey, this person is getting off of watch. 24 MR. : So, psychology will notify 25 whatever unit they're going back to? EFTA00125505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : Well, it depends where 2 you're going back to. Typically I always go to 3 Special Housing Unit down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And typically when you do, 6 let's say an individual has tried to commit 7 suicide. It's an infraction. So, they usually 8 have an incident report that goes beyond that. 9 So, you have to come up to the Special Housing 10 Unit anyway before so that that infraction can 11 be resolved. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, there are a number of 14 aspects of, you know, how. Did you go straight 15 back or if you don't go back there. 16 MR. : And this email that 17 psychology sends out with the list of who's in 18 and who's out of suicide watch -- 19 MR. : Who's on watch, yeah? 20 MR. : -- is that once a day or 21 twice a day? Is that morning and evening 22 thing? 23 MR. : It depends. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : When you come in in the EFTA00125506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 morning, they could say, you know, this is 2 who's on watch, and then you get another one 3 stating who's been released off of watch. 4 MR. : Okay. Is there any policy 5 or standard operation procedure on how 6 (Indiscernible *00:19:21) that email gets sent 7 out? 8 MR. : How what? 9 MR. : How frequent that email -- 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Okay. But it should be at 12 least once a day? 13 MR. : That's when they send it 14 out. I don't -- 15 MR. : Okay. When somebody is 16 removed from Special Housing -- 17 MR. : Um-hum. 18 MR. -- and placed in suicide 19 watch on the second floor -- 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. -- is anything done to 22 their cell in Special Housing? Is there any 23 precautions or anything that go into that? 24 MR. : So, typically let's say you 25 do leave, and it depends on how much space we EFTA00125507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 have. We really don't have that much space. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, usually that cell, 4 depending on if when they were removed from the 5 cell, if they had a cellmate. So, what happens 6 is that individual's property is removed, and 7 we could possibly put somebody else in that 8 cell. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Um -- 11 MR. : And again, the suicide 12 watch versus psychological, the psyche eval 13 that, you said that happened right away when 14 someone first comes in the prison; correct? 15 MR. : Well I -- 16 MR. : A psyche eval? 17 MR. : I didn't say what you 18 said before that. You said -- 19 MR. : A psychological eval. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : I want to clarify, earlier 22 you said that people, inmates get that when 23 they first come into the prison; correct? 24 MR. : Yeah. Psychologically when 25 they initially have to come and actually EFTA00125508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 perform -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- an initial intake 4 screening. 5 MR. : Is there a level below 6 suicide watch? 7 MR. : Well we also have what we 8 call a psyche observation. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And I think the best way to 11 describe that would be it's a step-down from 12 suicide watch. For example, we might have a 13 mental health inmate that is just mentally, you 14 know, out there. So, we'll put them on psyche 15 observation. They haven't said they're going 16 to hurt themselves, but they have the potential 17 to do it. 18 Somebody might be on narcotics and acting 19 erratic and you don't know what they're on. 20 So, they might end up doing it. But it's a 21 different type of observation because it's not 22 as stringent as suicide watch. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Can you explain what that 25 means? What are the requirements when an EFTA00125509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmate is on psyche eval, or psyche 2 observation? 3 MR. : If they're on psyche 4 observation, we are not necessarily putting 5 them in a smock. You know? You can still have 6 your regular clothing. We're just observing 7 your behavior and that. So, that's the 8 difference. 9 MS. : And does the psychologist 10 stop by every day? 11 MR. : They're treated the same way 12 as somebody that's on suicide watch. They're 13 evaluated, come up with a plan. They're ready 14 to be released. Keep them on, more along those 15 lines. 16 MS. : Well is someone on psyche 17 evaluation, do they have an inmate companion 18 watching them? 19 MR. : Psyche obs also has an 20 inmate companion. So, anybody in that area has 21 an inmate watching them. 22 MR. : As the Warden, do you have 23 any input on the determinate if someone's in 24 psychological observation, in suicide watch or 25 observation status? Do you have any input on EFTA00125510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that? 2 MR. : I don't overrule medical 3 decisions. I'm not a doctor. 4 MR. : Um-hum. 5 MR. : If they come to me and say 6 this is warranted whether it's medical care or 7 not, I don't -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : But you're briefed on it? 10 MR. : I'm briefed on it. Yes. 11 MS. : Is that orally? 12 MR. : Orally they'll come and say, 13 well we'll discuss an inmate saying, hey, he 14 has mental issues. I feel that they need to be 15 placed here or there. And I'm going with your 16 evaluation. I'm not going to, and I have good 17 psychologists. So, I trust their judgment. 18 MS. : Can an inmate be taken off 19 of suicide watch by Dr. or her staff 20 without consulting you? 21 MR. : They can. The doctor 22 decides who's coming off of watch. So, they 23 can make the determination and, you know, they 24 send up to the Associate Warden, the Captain, 25 and it will come to release and if they're EFTA00125511 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 going off it. So, it doesn't -- 2 MS. : But do they -- 3 MR. : -- have to necessarily, it's 4 not my approval. 5 MS. : Do they typically consult 6 you when that happens? 7 MR. : Depending on, you know, if 8 it's the case, you know? Who it is, you might 9 be, like I said, a high profile individual they 10 would say, "Hey, we're taking him off of watch. 11 We're doing this." So, we'll be following the 12 plan closely, so -- 13 MR. : When it comes to Epstein, 14 Jeffrey Epstein -- 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : -- he was in the mental 17 health program. Can you just tell us your 18 understanding of his involvement with the 19 psychologist at MCC? 20 MR. : Um, let me back-track. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : It's not a mental health 23 program. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Um -- EFTA00125512 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : Sorry. 2 MR. : Being, I guess, reviewed by 3 psychology -- 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : -- they're following him. 6 He was on their case. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And you want to know what I 9 knew about it? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Again, he was under their 12 care. They were evaluating him, and, you know, 13 going through their protocol to determine why 14 he was on watch. If he was on suicide watch, 15 can he come off of suicide watch? Was he 16 suicidal? Things like that. 17 MR. : At any time, were you 18 aware or notified of him being suicidal or 19 having any suicidal ideations or attempts? 20 MR. : Well we had an incident 21 where he was in the cell with 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- that it might've been a 24 suicide attempt and it might not have been a 25 suicide attempt. So, we followed the protocols EFTA00125513 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and put him on watch. There was also an 2 internal investigation where he was interviewed 3 and his cellmate was interviewed, and he 4 basically denied (Indiscernible *00:25:35). 5 MR. : When you say "he denied", 6 7 MR. : He said -- 8 MR. : -- or Epstein? 9 MR. : No, Epstein stated that, 10 "Hey, I didn't try to kill myself." And then 11 said that he was sitting in the 12 cell. He thought he was having a heart attack. 13 So, I forget the words psychology used to 14 determine what their conclusion was as far as 15 the actual act. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Did you review the 18 incident report for the suicide attempt? 19 MR. : I reviewed the investigative 20 report that the Lieutenant interviewed both of 21 them, took their statements, and all that 22 because the review process goes from, the 23 Lieutenant initiates it. It goes to the 24 Captain, Associate Warden, and myself. And 25 then I, uh, sign off on it. EFTA00125514 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 MS. : Did you speak with Dr. 2 after she had consulted with Mr. Epstein 3 when he was placed on suicide watch? 4 MR. : Um, yes. We have SHU 5 meetings, and we have it once a week, and 6 Epstein was brought up, and she talked about 7 Mr. Epstein. 8 MS. : After the suicide attempt? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MS. : What day of the week is 11 the SHU thing typically? 12 MR. : It's Thursdays. 13 MS. : All right and 14 MR. : Right. 15 MS. : -- what happens at the SHU 16 meetings? 17 MR. : It's a list where we go 18 around and we talk about every inmate. We have 19 inmates that are in there for infractions, 20 criminal issues, from your office, a high- 21 profile guy might come in. So, we just talk 22 about, okay, what's the status. If we call in 23 a disciplinary citation, that means they've 24 been sanctioned and they're doing time, and 25 then we look at the release date. We have some EFTA00125515 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 in there pending investigations. Cellphone 2 introduction. Drug introduction. So, that 3 goes through the investigative process, and 4 then we have, you know, we also have our SAMS 5 (phonetic sp.) inmates that are housed in 6 there. 7 So, we basically discuss and talk about 8 every inmate. 9 MS. : And who attends these 10 meetings? 11 MR. : Myself, all the Associate 12 Wardens, the Unit Managers, psychology, the 13 Captain, the SHU Lieutenant, the Investigative 14 Lieutenant. So, we just have everyone there 15 that's involved in the -- 16 MS. : And what's your 17 understanding of whether the SHU Lieutenant or 18 the Captain brief out the duty Officers in the 19 SHU about the outcome of that SHU meeting every 20 week. 21 MR. : I don't understand what you 22 mean. 23 MS. : So, do you have an 24 understanding of whether, because the duty 25 Officers are not present in the SHU meeting; EFTA00125516 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 correct? 2 MR. : No. 3 MS. : Do you have an 4 understanding of how, for instance, if you tell 5 the Lieutenant, I want this done in the SHU, 6 will the Lieutenant then tell his duty Officers 7 after the meeting? 8 MR. : Well, the duty officer is 9 supposed to make rounds throughout the 10 institution when they're on duty to observe and 11 report if anything is not right. And then if 12 we have incidents, they make notifications, you 13 know, to the region. 14 MS. : To the region? 15 MR. : To, like let's say we have a 16 fight. 17 MS. : Um-hum. 18 MR. : Or maybe like you said, a 19 suicide attempt. So, they have to contact the 20 Regional Duty Officer. That's their 21 notification. They make the Regional Duty 22 Officer, and then it moves up the chain that 23 way, and then I have to make my notifications, 24 which I make my notifications to the Regional 25 Director. EFTA00125517 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MS. : Okay. And my question is, 2 does any information, do you have an 3 understanding of whether any information that's 4 conveyed in these SHU meetings gets briefed 5 down to the line Officers who are responsible 6 for patrolling the SHU? 7 MR. : Right. 8 MS. : It does? 9 MR. : Yeah. The SHU Lieutenant is 10 there, and he's in the meeting, he or she is in 11 the meeting, and they're talking to their staff 12 on what needs to be done or the status, you 13 know. We're going in and we determine if 14 somebody can be released, then that will be 15 conveyed back that hey, an individual can be 16 released. 17 MS. : So, you were saying that 18 after the July 23rd suicide attempt, there was a 19 Thursday SHU meeting? 20 MR. : Right. 21 MS. : In which Dr. 22 discussed at least her initial observations of 23 Mr. Epstein? 24 MR. : Well, she would initially 25 discuss it there, but she would also initially, EFTA00125518 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 whoever, you know, if the Warden is there, 2 initiate it to the AW. So, that would be 3 something immediate that she would say, hey, 4 he's on watch and this happened. 5 MS. : And what happened at that 6 first SHU meeting after the suicide attempt? 7 MR. : The week of July 22'd to the 8 26th, I was on leave. 9 MS. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, I was, you know, I was 11 getting called. So, I don't know the 12 specifics, but I was aware of, you know, I got 13 called that hey, there was an attempt and the 14 protocols were followed. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : Notifications were made. 17 MS. : Okay. So, the following 18 week which I think is the week of the 29". 19 MR. : The 29k" or the 30th, yeah. 20 MS. : You were back in the 21 office? 22 MR. : That Monday. So, if you 23 have a calendar, I can look at it. 24 MS. : I think it's the 29th 25 MR. : So, yeah. So, the 29th is a EFTA00125519 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 Monday. I have to check, did I take a extra 2 day or not? I'm not sure, but the 29th, I 3 should've, I would've been back. 4 MS. : So, that Thursday meeting 5 which looks like would've been August 13', you 6 were present at? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MS. : And what was discussed 9 during the SHU meeting? 10 MR. : The SHU meeting, we'll 11 discuss every inmate. Every inmate on the 12 list, what's their status? Updates and all 13 that stuff. 14 MS. : Okay. And specifically 15 with respect to Epstein, what was discussed? 16 MR. : I don't recall specifically. 17 I know we would've talked about him. We 18 would've probably talked about, you know, his 19 psychological status and I got to remember on 20 the first, he was probably back in the Special 21 Housing Unit. So, we were probably, you know, 22 talking about his housing conditions, what's he 23 doing, and usually the conversation was during 24 the day he was down at the attorney visits, you 25 know? EFTA00125520 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 And then there were certain exams that we 2 had to do that we wanted to get done on him. 3 And then we discussed that. 4 MS. : Uh, what kind of exams? 5 MR. : Physicals and then, you 6 know, and I don't know if that was before or 7 after his sleep apnea machine that he was, you 8 know, requesting. 9 MS. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : Because typically, you know, 11 you have to go through the fitting and the 12 process, but, you know, we allowed that one to 13 come in. We checked it, security wise, and 14 said it was fine to come in, and we got it. 15 So, I think we might have been discussing that, 16 more along those lines. 17 But we discuss every inmate in there. I 18 don't specifically remember it. I know we 19 would've talked about what the issues were 20 pertaining to him. 21 MS. : Um, let's go back to 22 MR. : Um-hum. 23 MS. : -- the suicide attempt. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : You said that you were on EFTA00125521 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 leave that week, but you were notified by your 2 Associate Warden? 3 MR. : Associate Warden, yes. 4 MS. : Okay. Were you receiving 5 daily updates? 6 MR. : Not, I mean, they called me 7 during the day the first time that it happened. 8 Hey, this is what happened. He's on watch. 9 And then the next day, you know, he was still 10 on watch. So, there was really no, I didn't 11 need that much updates because we knew he was 12 on watch. 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Um -- 15 MS. : And you notified your 16 Regional Director? 17 MR. : I notified my Regional 18 Director. And then while I was on leave, my 19 Regional Director was also in contact with my 20 acting AW. 21 MS. : Did the -- 22 MR. : Acting Warden, I'm sorry. 23 MS. : Did the Regional Director 24 convey any directions to your AW during that 25 time? EFTA00125522 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : I believe just the basics, 2 you know. Keep him updated what's going on 3 because at the time he was under psychology's 4 care. 5 MS. : Um-hum. 6 MR. : So, once they're in that, 7 there's really not that much input to go on 8 because they're on watch. 9 MS. : And then Epstein was 10 downgraded from suicide watch to psyche 11 observation. 12 MR. : Psyche observation. 13 MS. : While he was still on the 14 second floor? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MS. : Were you notified of that 17 change? 18 MR. : Yes, that he was on psyche 19 obs. 20 MS. : Okay. And did you discuss 21 that with Dr. at all? 22 MR. : Yeah. We talked about it. 23 Again, it was, you know, him going back up to 24 the Special Housing Unit. Although he wasn't 25 suicidal, it was just a matter of, okay, who EFTA00125523 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 are we going to house him with? 2 MS. : Um-hum. 3 MR. : You know, coming to that 4 decision and then that would give her more time 5 to work with him if she needed. 6 MS. : Okay. Did you have a 7 discussion with Dr. about whether she 8 felt he was still suicidal? 9 MR. : Again, if the psychologist 10 tells me that he's ready and he goes, I don't 11 question medical judgment. I trust her 12 judgement. If she says he's not suicidal and 13 he's ready to go back, then we trust her 14 judgment. 15 MS. : And she did -- 16 MR. : Because she -- 17 MS. : -- tell you that? 18 MR. : She said he was ready to go 19 back. He wasn't suicidal and that he was ready 20 to go back. 21 MS. : Did you review any of her 22 reports or the psychologist's reports -- 23 MR. : I don't -- 24 MS. : -- during the time he was 25 on the second floor? EFTA00125524 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MR. : No. I don't review any 2 medical files. 3 MS. : And he came back to the 4 SHU on the 30th, is that right? 5 MR. : Uh, yes. 6 MS. : Okay. 7 MR. : Um-hum. 8 MS. : And what discussions did 9 you have, let's start with Dr. , about 10 the conditions of his confinement in the SHU? 11 MR. : She just said to get him in, 12 you know, we're going to put him, get him a 13 cellmate because typically every inmate that, 14 you know, is on suicide or whatever, we say, 15 okay, we're going to give him a cellmate. So, 16 that was when we went through the process of 17 figuring out, okay, who could we possibly put 18 him in with? Um, the pickings were slim. 19 So, I came up with , and no 20 wait, no. , he had been put down 21 there originally because of 22 MS. : Um-hum. 23 MR. : So, what happened was, we 24 had to come up with some more inmates. So, 25 came up with three. It was, I believe, EFTA00125525 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 , and who was the other one? We had 2 another sex offender in there that we were 3 going to put him in there, and he said, "If he 4 comes in here, it's going to be a problem." 5 So, we didn't put him in there. 6 So, we ended up putting in there. 7 MS. : Um-hum. 8 MR. -: , an older gentleman. 9 He couldn't be in the institution because it 10 was cooperating, so we figured that was a good 11 fit, and then I sent an email of the three to 12 the Director's Chief of Staff I sent an email 13 to. 14 MS. : And what is his name? 15 MR. (phonetic 16 sp.). 17 MS. : Okay. And so you emailed 18 him, here are the three -- 19 MR. : Here are the three -- 20 MS. : -- possible -- 21 MR. : possible ones. 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MS. : Did you tell 25 MR. -: EFTA00125526 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : Did you tell Mr. 2 that he needed to have a cellmate? 3 MR. : Yes. That's what the 4 discussion was, for a cellmate. So, I sent 5 that up, spoke with my Regional Director. 6 believe he received it too, and came to the 7 conclusion would probably be the best fit 8 for him. So, we put him in the cell with 9 10 MS. : Is there a policy about 11 whether an inmate needs to have a cellmate 12 after they've been taken off of suicide watch? 13 MR. : There's no policy, but it's 14 sound correctional judgment. I mean even if an 15 individual is not on suicide watch, and you're 16 in the Special Housing Unit, you typically want 17 somebody in there with them. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 MR. : Because, I mean, you never 20 know what could happen. So, just for somebody 21 to talk to, you know, pass the time. So, you 22 typically put somebody in there unless again 23 we're in a situation where they're just totally 24 separated from somebody -- 25 MS. : Um-hum. EFTA00125527 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. -- and we can't put them in 2 there because it becomes a life safety issue. 3 MS. : How long after someone is 4 taken off suicide watch would you typically 5 direct that they have a cellmate? 6 MR. : It would depend on the 7 situation, because you could be getting 8 released to a unit where you would 9 automatically have a cellmate going through, or 10 you know, direction could put out that, hey, 11 make sure the individual has a cellmate. 12 So, there's no really timeframe on when 13 you would decide that. 14 MR. : Just to clarify, as it 15 relates to, I know you guys just discussed 16 this, but just making sure I'm following you 17 guys correctly. As it relates to the first 18 suicide attempt back on July 23'd, Mr. Epstein. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : You were on leave. 21 MR. : Yeah, the 22dd. 22 MR. : You were notified via 23 telephone of this, and you notified the 24 Regional Director. Is that correct? 25 MR. : Yeah, of the, yeah, I did EFTA00125528 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 call him to tell him. 2 MR. : You called the Regional 3 Director? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : -- while on leave to 6 notify him? Did you notify anybody else of the 7 23 rd incident? 8 MR. : No, I called my boss, and -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : And that is, via the 12 policy and your responsibilities, as a BOP 13 policy and your responsibility as a Warden, is 14 there anybody else that you were supposed to 15 notify? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : And your staff was 20 notified because they were working in the 21 institution; correct? 22 MR. : Which staff? 23 MR. : Your Assistant Warden, who 24 25 MR. : Yeah. She was the Acting EFTA00125529 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Warden, so she 2 MR. : Acting Warden. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Who was that? 5 MR. : At the time, I believe it 6 was (phonetic sp.). 7 Yeah, she was Active Warden. 8 MR. : Okay. Do you happen to 9 know if she notified anybody? 10 MR. : She would've notified the 11 Region also. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : And she would've notified 14 the region, but she was just calling me 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : -- just to let me know like, 17 hey, this is what's going on. 18 MR. : Okay. And back when, a 19 few days later when Epstein was removed from 20 suicide watch to psyche observation 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : -- were you notified of 23 that change? 24 MR. : That he was being moved? 25 MR. : Just downgraded from EFTA00125530 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 suicide watch to psychological observation. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : Did you notify anybody of 4 that? 5 MR. : Um, I might've called my 6 boss to let him know that, hey, he's been 7 downgraded off of suicide watch. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : You don't recall 11 specifically calling? 12 MR. : No, I don't. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : But I probably would've 15 notified him. 16 MR. : Okay. Did you recall 17 notifying anybody specifically about that 18 downgrade? 19 MR. : What, as far as him? 20 MR. : Yep. 21 MR. : No, I don't recall, but it 22 would've probably been my boss telling me 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : -- hey, we moved him from 25 suicide watch down to -- EFTA00125531 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MS. : And that's the Regional 2 Director? 3 MR. : That's the Regional 4 Director. 5 MS. : And what's his name? 6 MR. 7 MR. : And then a few days later 8 when he was removed from observation and placed 9 back in Special Housing Unit, you were notified 10 of that? Were you notified of that? 11 MR. : Oh, yes. 12 MR. : Did you notify anybody of 13 that? 14 MR. : When he was removed and 15 placed back in the -- 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : -- Special Housing? Yeah, I 18 let my supervisor know that that was the plan. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : He was moving him, because 21 remember we had to get him -- 22 MR. : Um-hum. 23 MR. : -- a roommate. 24 MR. : Right. 25 MR. : So, that was the whole EFTA00125532 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 process, notifying, hey, he's coming off watch. 2 He's going to the Special Housing Unit. 3 MR. : Um-hum. 4 MR. : And he's going to get a 5 roommate. 6 MR. : Other than your Regional 7 Director, did you notify anybody else? 8 MR. : That he was coming off 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- or talk about it? 11 MR. : Yep. 12 MR. : Yeah. My exec staff. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : And said that, you know, 15 what the expectation was that, you know, he's 16 going to have a cellmate. 17 MR. : So, you told, during that 18 meeting, do you recall when that meeting was? 19 MR. : I don't recall when the 20 meeting was, but I just told them, hey, he 21 needs to have a cellmate. This is his 22 cellmate. Cellmate at all times. And, you 23 know, put it out to your -- 24 MR. : Okay. Um -- 25 MS. : Put it out to your people? EFTA00125533 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 MR. : To the departments and your 2 areas of responsibility on that's how he was 3 going to be housed. 4 MS. : And who did you 5 specifically tell that to? 6 MR. : My Associate Wardens were in 7 there, whoever was acting, the Captain because 8 that specifically falls under his area. 9 MS. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : The Special Housing Unit. I 11 told him specifically he needs to be housed 12 alone. I informed his Lieutenant, you know, 13 and his offices and basically on each shift, 14 just be mindful, you know, of making rounds and 15 just not for him, just for everybody. 16 MS. : And what's the Captain's 17 name? 18 MR. -: 19 MS. . Okay. 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MS. : Did you tell Captain 22 this before Epstein was moved back to 23 the SHU? 24 MR. : Yeah. We had a meeting, and 25 I got together and I said, hey, this was going EFTA00125534 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 to be the plan that was going to be moved 2 in with him. He was going to have a cellmate, 3 and that was the protocol we were going to 4 follow. 5 MS. : Did confirm that he 6 would tell his Lieutenants, or his -- 7 MR. : He confirmed. I followed up 8 and asked him, did you put it out to the 9 Lieutenants and staff working, and he told me 10 yes. 11 MS. : And was that before 12 Epstein, his confirmation, did that come before 13 Epstein was moved back to the SHU, or around 14 the first day he was in the SHU? 15 MR. : No before. I had the 16 conversation with him, and then I followed up 17 afterwards and said, "Hey, did you disseminate 18 the information?" And he said, "Everything was 19 disseminated." 20 But it wasn't just a one-day thing. It 21 was a constant, I told him, a constant follow 22 up, you know? Make sure that, you know, these 23 protocols are being followed. 24 MS. : How many times do you 25 recall telling Captain that, between EFTA00125535 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 when Epstein went back to the SHU -- 2 MR. : Um-hum. 3 MS. : -- and then his suicide? 4 MR. : I don't recall the number of 5 times, but it was just a conversation 6 constantly reminding that let's be vigilant on 7 just not him, but everybody in the Special 8 Housing Unit. 9 MS. : Could you estimate daily? 10 Once? Twice? 11 MR. : I wouldn't say daily. I 12 would say, I don't have an actual number. 13 don't want to say an actual number, but you 14 know, if I did encounter, or I made rounds in 15 the unit, I would, you know, tell staff up 16 there, you know, be vigilant with your 17 protocol. 18 So, I don't know the specific amount of 19 time. I make my rounds once a week at a 20 minimum, but, you know, sometimes it's more. 21 Sometimes it's less. 22 MR. : When it comes to the 23 ability, so you specifically go back to, what 24 you said earlier about 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00125536 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 MR. : You came up with three 2 possible -- 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : -- roommates for him, and 5 with that list, did you brief that up the chain 6 for approval, or where did that go that list? 7 MR. : I sent it to, I made my boss 8 aware of it. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And then I sent it to the 11 Chief of Staff in the Director's office. So, 12 don't know what conversations 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : -- took place above that. 15 Um -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : I just know about 18 MR. : You briefed it up the 19 chain. You briefed your suggestions up the 20 chain. 21 MR. : I went up the chain. 22 MR. : And there was, were there 23 any objections to that list? 24 MR. : I gave the three possibles 25 EFTA00125537 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Um-hum. 2 MR. : -- but you know, one I had 3 was a 26-year-old drug dealer I know he, and he 4 was still in there, and I was like although he 5 was separated, I just didn't -- 6 MR. : Um-hum. 7 MR. : -- feel that he could, you 8 know, he might, somebody could convince him to 9 do something. So, he didn't, I didn't feel 10 comfortable with him, and I forget the other 11 one. And I think the other one might've been 12 somebody that was going to be releasing soon. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, I took in the factors 15 age -- 16 MR. : Um-hum. 17 MR. : -- and second when he 18 checked himself in and feeling that he was 19 going to be long-term. 20 MR. : Okay. That, so you made 21 special care and consideration in picking 22 Epstein's roommate, cellmate? 23 MR. : Based on the -- 24 MR. : Yep. 25 MR. : -- options I had -- EFTA00125538 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yep. 2 MR. : -- which wasn't too many. I 3 mean, he had to have a cellmate, and the 4 options weren't good. 5 MR. : Are staff in the Special 6 Housing Unit allowed to assign cellmates 7 arbitrarily or on their own without consulting 8 a Captain, Lieutenant, or yourself 9 (Indiscernible *00:46:26). 10 MR. : Yeah, the offices on their 11 own can, you know, if they have to move 12 somebody around can move somebody around based 13 on they know who can be housed with who. If 14 somebody's separation, they know who's 15 separated from an individual. So, they can do 16 that. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I mean, they're capable of 19 doing that. 20 MR. : Okay. As it relates, talK 21 about a little bit. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : He's no longer in MCC; 24 correct? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00125539 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 MR. : When was he released from 2 the facility? 3 MR. : He was released, I believe, 4 on Friday. 5 MR. : Okay. Was he transferred 6 out? Was he released from custody? Under what 7 conditions, do you know? 8 MR. : From what I understand, it 9 was with all belongings. So, I don't -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- who took him. You can't, 12 I mean, even if you look on Sentry, you don't 13 know where he was -- 14 MR. : Um-hum. 15 MR. : -- but when we looked at him 16 originally, it still showed that he was going 17 to court. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So, that he was going to be 20 long-term. Now it's just showing there's no 21 DST. So, I don't know where is. 22 MR. : Okay. But he's not in 23 MCC? 24 MR. : No, he's not in MCC. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00125540 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Uh -- 2 MR. : Prior to, you had, you 3 were very active in making sure that Epstein 4 had an appropriate cellmate? 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : What were you, leading up 7 to the last week Friday, what were you aware of 8 , any court proceedings or any issues or 9 concerns about him leaving the MCC? 10 MR. : I was off on Friday. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : So, I didn't know anything 13 about his court proceedings -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- or whatever. I just know 16 this from after the fact. 17 MR. : Okay. When it comes to 18 , the staff in the Special Housing Unit, 19 how do they get notified of court dates, of the 20 probability of someone being released from the 21 facility? How does that process work? 22 MR. : They get a call from 23 receiving, it's called receiving and discharge. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Where the inmates are EFTA00125541 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 processed in and processed out. So, they get 2 notification that hey, such and such is 3 leaving, and send him down. 4 MR. : Okay. Does the MCC 5 usually, or sometimes, what's the, how often or 6 frequently does the MCC get advanced notice of 7 an inmate leaving? 8 MR. : It depends. If the 9 inmate's designated -- 10 MR. : Um-hum. 11 MR. : -- then we know in advance 12 he's designated. But usually the Marshalls 13 will come and say, whoever is picking him up, 14 "Hey, we're taking such and such." We might 15 get a list ahead of time if somebody's going to 16 maybe one of the county facilities or some they 17 just come and say, "Hey, we need this guy." 18 MR. : Okay. Ultimately Friday, 19 the 9th, is discharged. 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. : Leaving Epstein, actually 22 let's talk about without a cellmate. Was there 23 a plan in place if that were to happen? 24 MR. : We'd review it and say, 25 okay, who can he be with? But he wouldn't have EFTA00125542 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 been alone. 2 MR. : Was there anybody in the 3 Special Housing Unit that was already vetted to 4 room with, or cell with Epstein? 5 MR. : No. Because again, didn't 6 anticipate leaving -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : -- like that. But we 9 would've gotten somebody in there temporarily. 10 MR. : When did you first become 11 aware of leaving the MCC? 12 MR. : After the death of Mr. 13 Epstein. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : Um, when I came, you know, 16 that was like my first question was like, where 17 is his cellmate? 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : I was told he was gone. 20 MR. : When were you first 21 notified of the death of Epstein? 22 MR. : I got a call about 6:50 and 23 told me that, hey -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- that he attempted suicide EFTA00125543 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and they were going through life-saving 2 measures. 3 MR. : And who contacted you? 4 MR. : My Associate Warden, 5 6 MR. 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Uh -- 9 MS. : Was she at the scene? 10 MR. : No, she wasn't. The 11 Lieutenant had called the Captain. The Captain 12 called her, and then she called me. 13 MS. : And is it Lieutenant 14 is that it? 15 MR. : Lieutenant was the 16 Operations Lieutenant. 17 MR. : Would you mind, in that 18 conversation, would you mind just telling us 19 about that conversation? 20 MR. : She told me Epstein, they 21 found him in his cell. They had a 22 defibrillator on him and that they were working 23 on him. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : And when she told me that, I EFTA00125544 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 80 1 was like, okay. Where are they at? Is EMS 2 coming in? She said she didn't have that much 3 information because the Lieutenant was down 4 with Epstein performing life-saving measures. 5 So, that's when I came in. 6 MR. : When did you start asking 7 questions about ? On the phone or when 8 you arrived at the facility? 9 MR. : So, when I got there, I was 10 like, where is the cellmate. 11 MR. : Um-hum. 12 MR. : I asked the Lieutenant, like 13 where is his cellmate, and Lieutenant said, "I 14 asked the same question when I went down and, 15 you know, started." He asked the officer, 16 "Where's his cellmate?" 17 And, you know, just couldn't, you know, he 18 was disoriented and told me he had said that. 19 So, that's when we started, you know, started 20 the process of where's 21 MR. : Just for timeline 22 purposes, about what time did you arrive? 23 MR. : I got there about 7:30. 24 MR. : Okay. Who within the 25 Special Housing Unit would've had the ability EFTA00125545 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 or who within the Special Housing Unit would've 2 had the ability or the authority to back-fill 3 spot as Epstein's cellmate? 4 MR. : Well what would've happened, 5 which was instructed to them, was -- 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : -- they would've told the 8 Lieutenant or Captain, hey, I mean 9 Epstein needs a cellmate. And then we would've 10 started the process of getting him a cellmate. 11 Because when, and this was Epstein's routine. 12 He got up early in the morning at 8, and he 13 didn't come back to his cell until about 7:30 14 at night from his attorney visits. 15 left in the morning. So, he doesn't 16 come back to his cell until in the evening, 17 which on that particular day, he got back 18 about, from what I understand, around 6:45. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : You said that they were 22 instructed to notify that Epstein needed a 23 cellmate? 24 MR. : So, the Captain, as I told 25 you before -- EFTA00125546 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Um-hum. 2 MR. : -- when I told them about 3 the expectations. 4 MR. : Yep. 5 MR. : All that was Epstein needs a 6 cellmate. 7 MR. : Yep. 8 MR. : And he's to be having a 9 cellmate at all times. If he doesn't, then 10 they need to notify you and then you can push 11 it up. 12 MR. : So, you told the Captain - 13 14 MR. : I told the Captain 15 specifically that. 16 MR. : Okay. And the Captain was 17 to tell his, below him. 18 MR. : He conveyed it to the 19 Lieutenant, to the Officers, and disseminated 20 it out. 21 MR. : Okay. So, he should've 22 been notified. How should the notification 23 have worked? 24 MR. : When he -- 25 MR. : -- when , realized EFTA00125547 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that was dismissed? 2 MR. : The Officers should've 3 called the Lieutenant -- 4 MR. : Which Officers? 5 MR. : The ones working the unit? 6 MR. : The Special Housing Unit? 7 MR. : The Special Housing Unit 8 Officers. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Because they know that he 11 packed up. They -- 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, once he gets packed up, 14 they go -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : They should've known, hey, 17 let me notify and move it up the chain, Epstein 18 doesn't have a cellmate. 19 MR. : How does ' belongings 20 get packed up? Who does that? 21 MR. : When the staff in SHU pack 22 up his stuff. 23 MR. : Okay. So, the staff in 24 SHU would -- 25 MR. : They'll come to the door -- EFTA00125548 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 84 1 MR. : Um-hum. 2 MR. : -- and if they say WAB, it's 3 with all belongings. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : So, they more than likely 6 just took his stuff -- 7 MR. : Um-hum. 8 MR. : -- and then whatever he had 9 in his cell, and if he had something in the 10 property room, they might've gone to get it. 11 Or if they didn't, then we would somewhere down 12 the line ship it to wherever his destination 13 is. 14 MR. : Is the staff that's 15 packing up ' belongings different than the 16 Correctional Officers? 17 MR. -: property would've 18 been stored up in our Special Housing Unit. 19 MR. : Right. 20 MR. : And then it would've been 21 taken by our Special Housing Unit staff to our 22 receiving and discharge center. 23 MR. : Is that staff, when you 24 say "staff", is that a different responsibility 25 than being a Correctional Officer? EFTA00125549 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 85 1 MR. : Well we're all, we're all 2 correctional workers -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : -- but their department is, 5 you know, the receiving and discharge 6 MR. : Um-hum. 7 MR. : -- of inmates. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : So, that's where you process 10 in -- 11 MR. : Got you. 12 MR. : -- or process out. So, they 13 would take the stuff down to them. They'd 14 process in and process out. 15 MR. : Okay. So, these are 16 people that are different, have different 17 responsibilities than, okay. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : I got it. 20 MR. : The Special House -- 21 MR. : Thank you for -- 22 MS. : But the Officers in the 23 SHU would have been responsible for packing up 24 ' belongings? 25 MR. : Right. They would've taken EFTA00125550 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 all of his belongings. Now I don't know if he 2 has some property still in the property room. 3 But whatever was in his cell, they would've 4 gathered and taken down. 5 MR. : So, the Officers that are 6 in the Special Housing Unit either would have 7 actively participated or observed 8 belongings being packed up and leaving? 9 MR. : Right, and taken. And 10 again, I don't know where went. 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : I don't know if he went to 13 court. 14 MR. : Um-hum. 15 MR. : I don't know -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- but the terminology with 18 all belongings. 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. : So, he was being -- 21 MR. : Is there any documentation 22 or reports about when ' belongings would 23 have been collected from Special Housing Unit? 24 MR. : I wouldn't say belongings, 25 but there would be something showing that he EFTA00125551 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 was departed the institution. 2 MR. : Okay. And that would ce 3 in the system somewhere? 4 MR. : Uh, yeah. They would be 5 receipts, but our receiving and discharge would 6 have that. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And it will also show in 9 Sentry, which we use to track on when he was 10 keyed out. 11 MR. : Okay. So, just to recap. 12 MR. : Um-hum. 13 MR. : The Officers that were 14 working in the Special Housing Unit would've 15 observed ' belongings leaving. They were 16 instructed via the Captain through your orders 17 that if Epstein was to have a cellmate at all 18 times. 19 MR. : At all times. 20 MR. : And that if that wasn't, 21 you know, supposed to be briefed up to the 22 Captain and then ultimately to you. Is that 23 correct? 24 MR. : Right. The Lieutenant, if 25 the SHU Lieutenant was working, the SHU EFTA00125552 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Lieutenant happened to be off that day. 2 MR. : Um-hum. 3 MR. : And then it goes up the 4 chain to notify somebody that he doesn't have a 5 cellmate. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MS. : So, the SHU Lieutenant was 8 off that day, you said? 9 MR. : He was off that day of -- 10 MS. : And which SHU was that? 11 MR. : Huh? It was the Lieutenant 12 at the time was 13 MS. 14 MR. : Uh, Lieutenant 15 MS. : So, who was the Acting 16 Supervisor? 17 MR. : We didn't, well the 18 Operations, if we don't have a SHU Lieutenant 19 on duty, the Operations Lieutenant is the 20 Lieutenant that would come up, make rounds, and 21 (Indiscernible *00:57:40). 22 MS. : Okay. And who was that on 23 Friday? 24 MR. : I don't recall. I have to 25 look at the roster. EFTA00125553 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 89 1 MR. : Okay. Let's talk a little 2 bit about staffing that day. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : Um -- 5 MR. : Well, can I -- 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : -- say one thing? 8 MR. : Of course. 9 MR. : I sent a memorandum to, did 10 he give it to you? 11 MR. : On? 12 MR. : Well, I got a memorandum 13 this morning -- 14 MS. : This morning, yes. 15 MR. : About the offices saying 16 that they knew that he left and when he left he 17 told the evening watch guy that Epstein needed 18 a cellmate. 19 MS. : Do you know why that's 20 dated today? 21 MR. : Because when I came in this 22 morning, one of my Lieutenants came in and I 23 asked him, I said, "Hey, have you heard 24 anything about what went on on Friday?" And 25 that's when he told me he had talked to the EFTA00125554 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Officer, and the Officer told him he had 2 notified them as to that, you know, Epstein 3 needed a Bunkie. 4 MS. : Okay. And who -- 5 MR. : Um -- 6 MS. : -- asked the Officer to 7 put that in writing? 8 MR. : Uh, Lieutenant . He 9 had told him to put it in writing. 10 MR. : Just for, uh, 11 (Indiscernible *00:58:59) if I may just 12 MS. : Yeah. 13 MR. : -- read it so we're on the 14 same page, here. 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : So, we have a memo dated 17 August 12, 2019 to the Warden from 18 MR. -: (phonetic sp.) I 19 MR. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. 22 MR. : Um-hum. 23 MR. : And the subject is, Past 24 Information from Special Housing Units. 25 MR. : Um-hum. EFTA00125555 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : And 2 MR. 3 MR. : Was suggested, was told by 4 Lieutenant to write this memo? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. And the memo, just 7 8 MS. : I don't think you need to 9 (Indiscernible *00:59:26). 10 MR. : Okay, yep. Just 11 MS. : Yeah. 12 MR. : -- thanks. Just making 13 sure we're on -- 14 MS. : I appreciate that, yeah. 15 MR. : Overall staffing at MCC, 16 if we can just go down that road for right now. 17 Where, are you guys at full staff? Where are 18 you in terms of staffing levels? 19 MR. : We're understaffed. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, we're starting the 22 hiring process right now, but we do have to, 23 you know, there's some posts that we can't 24 fill. But -- 25 MR. : Where are you in terms of EFTA00125556 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 staffing? Like what percentage are you, would 2 you say? 3 MR. : I believe we're in our low 4 80s, high 70s. I'd have to look at the 5 staffing or whatever. 6 MR. : But somewhere around 80%. 7 MR. : Right, but it doesn't only, 8 that's not the only issue. The only issue 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : -- is like we, let's say 11 we're staffed to 80%, we've got about 30 people 12 that we can't use. Either they're on Workman's 13 Comp. They're on AWOL status. You name it, we 14 have it. But the problem is, it takes a while 15 to go through that process to remove an 16 employee. 17 So, we can't just hire when you have a 18 bunch of people like that on you. So, that's 19 where we're at. 20 MR. : Okay. So, how do you as a 21 Warden and as an institution compensate for 22 being 20% understaffed? 23 MR. : Well, I mean everyone has to 24 chip in. I mean, we're not like the state 25 where you have your Correctional workers and EFTA00125557 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 you have the contractor workers. Everyone, 2 despite the fact that you might have a 3 different job title, you know how to perform 4 the functions of a Correctional Officer. You 5 have to qualify with weapons every year. You 6 take training on working the housing units, and 7 the majority of them weren't hired off the 8 street as into their positions. There might be 9 a few. But the majority were Correctional 10 Officers and then promoted into the different 11 positions. 12 So, we have annual refresher training 13 every year where we train and move on like 14 that. But that's just not, it's not their 15 primary discipline, being a Correctional 16 Officer. 17 MR. : You said all staff are 18 trained as Corrections Officers? 19 MR. : The terminology is you're 20 Correctional workers. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, you know how to perform 23 the functions of a Correctional Officer. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Carry firearms. You can do EFTA00125558 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 94 1 escorted trips. You could work the housing 2 unit. The only ones who probably are exempt 3 from that are doctors and attorneys and 4 psychologists, the professionals. But everyone 5 else, 6 MR. : And where do the 7 Correctional workers receive this training? 8 MR. : Well initially you go to 9 Glencoe. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Everyone goes to Glencoe for 12 training. 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : And then specialized 15 training, we have annual refresher training 16 every year where we re-qualify and go over 17 certain correctional topics. 18 MR. : Okay. Let me ask you 19 about some specific people. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : If you happen to know if 22 they, what their primary duties are. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. 25 MR. : He's a material handler EFTA00125559 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 foreman. 2 MR. : What is a material 3 handler? 4 MR. : They work in the warehouse. 5 So, in the warehouse, it has several functions. 6 You either work in the commissary which the 7 inmates shop for food. He can work in the 8 laundry where you do that, or you work in the 9 warehouse where you're processing 10 MR. : Um—hum. 11 MR. : -- in stuff. What's the 12 other one? We also have an outside warehouse 13 where we take deliveries. So, that's our, and 14 it's under our trust fund department. 15 MR. : Okay. And the night of 16 August 9th, August 10th -- 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : -- do you happen to know 19 if Mr. Thompson was working as a Correctional 20 Officer in that primary responsibility? 21 MR. : He was one of the Officers 22 in the Special Housing Unit. 23 MR. : Okay. Do you know how 24 often he works as a Correction, his 25 responsibility as an Officer? EFTA00125560 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 MR. : What they do is since he 2 works in that department, we might, if we need 3 him during the daytime, assign him over to the 4 department. But he does overtime. He was 5 working overtime then. So, we have a lot of 6 overtime. So, individuals in other departments 7 work the overtime. 8 MR. : Is that something they can 9 do voluntarily, or are they told to do that? 10 How does that work? 11 MR. : We have a volunteer list for 12 the individuals that don't work in the 13 department. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : If you're a Correctional 16 Officer, we have what's called a mandation 17 list. So, if we call around and I say, "Hey, 18 we need somebody to work this", and everyone 19 turns it down and says, "No, I don't want to 20 work it", then we go to the mandation list. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Which is you're next up to 23 be mandated to work a post. 24 MR. : Okay. Um -- 25 MS. : Was he mandated that EFTA00125561 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 night? 2 MR. : I believe he wasn't. He 3 wouldn't be mandated because he works as a 4 material handler foreman. 5 MS. : Got it. 6 MR. : So, he signed up for it. 7 MS. : Okay. 8 MR. : Yeah. 9 MR. : So, just to clarify, the 10 Correctional Officers or only the Officers are 11 on the mandated list? 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : The rest of Correctional 14 workers have the opportunity to volunteer for 15 overtime? 16 MR. : Right. You volunteer for 17 overtime. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Or during the daytime, I can 20 say, "Look I need to fill these posts. I need 21 you to come from your department to work over 22 in Correctional services." 23 MR. : Okay. Toba Noel (phonetic 24 25 MR. : Uh, is a Correctional EFTA00125562 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Officer. 2 MR. : She's a Corrections 3 Officer? 4 MR. : Corrections Officer. 5 MR. : Okay. Do you happen to 6 know if she was working overtime or her regular 7 shift that day? 8 MR. : I'm not sure. I think it 9 might've been (Indiscernible *01:04:52). I'm 10 not sure. I think her regular, I'm not sure. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Her regular shift was 13 evening watch, and then she did it. So -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MS. : Does she typically work in 16 the SHU? 17 MR. : Uh, yes. She's been 18 (Indiscernible *01:05:01). 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : And I don't know if that was 21 her assigned quarterly post, but I do believe 22 it is. 23 MR. : Captain 24 MR. : He's the Captain. 25 MR. EFTA00125563 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. -: ? He's an 2 Officer. 3 MR. : He's an Officer? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. 6 MR. : He's an Officer. 7 MR. 8 MR. : He's an Officer. 9 MR. (phonetic 10 sp.)? 11 MR. : She is the psychologist. 12 MR. : Okay. So, the only one, 13 the only one, Michael Thomas, is the only one 14 who's primary responsibility is not an Officer? 15 MR. : And Dr. 16 MR. : Doctor, yep. Okay, great. 17 MS. : Are you notified when a 18 Corrections Officer is mandated to work 19 overtime? Who makes that decision? 20 MR. : The Lieutenant on shift 21 handles that. 22 MR. : What are the rules, or any 23 policies in terms of overtime? Is there a 24 limit? Is there, how does the overtime work? 25 Is there a cap in terms of hours a week? EFTA00125564 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 MR. : It's voluntary. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : And then it's, like you 4 said, the prison business is 24 hours. 5 MR. : Um-hum. 6 MR. : We don't have the luxury to 7 turn around and say we can't fill a post. Now 8 I might have a post that might require, you 9 know, X amount of people, but I have to staff 10 it at a minimum where we're safe coming and 11 going. 12 MR. : Um-hum. 13 MR. : So, there's really no set 14 amount. I mean, depending, you know, I've been 15 here, when I first got here where our staffing 16 was really bad where people were doing four a 17 week. 18 MR. : When you say -- 19 MR. : You know? 20 MR. : -- "four a week", what is 21 22 MR. : Four overtimes a week. 23 MR. : Now is, when you say, what 24 is an overtime? Is that like another 8-hour 25 shift? EFTA00125565 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 MR. : Another 8-hour shift. 2 MR. : Okay. So, you 3 MR. : So, it depends on, you know, 4 the number of people we have, those 5 volunteering. So, right now we're in the 6 hiring process where we are getting, you know, 7 bodies to fill in these positions. 8 MR. : So, an overtime shift is 9 eight additional hours? 10 MR. : Eight additional hours. 11 MR. : Okay. Is there any -- 12 MS. : Go ahead. 13 MR. : -- is there any limit on 14 how many 16-hour days a week an employee can 15 work? 16 MR. : You just can't exceed the 17 amount of 16 hours in a day. 18 MR. : Could you explain that for 19 me? 20 MR. : Okay. You work eight hours. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : You can only work 16 hours 23 that day. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : You can't work 24 hours. EFTA00125566 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 You can't, you're not like a fireman where, you 2 know, you're on duty 24 hours in. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : SO, there's a limit on the 5 daily. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : That you can do. 8 MR. : But there's no limit on 9 how many days in a row you can work those 16 10 hours? 11 MR. : No. If somebody wants to, 12 they could. 13 MR. : Do you have any unofficial 14 or any guidance on that front? 15 MR. : No, not really, because I 16 mean you have some people that sign up for 17 overtime. 18 MR. : Got you. 19 MR. : You know? They say 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. : -- hey, they might, I don't 22 know people's financial situations. 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : But they might say, hey, you 25 know, I need to get some extra money -- EFTA00125567 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- for X, Y and Z. So, I 3 don't know the specifics -- 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- on why somebody would. 6 MR. : You know I had a previous 7 job where my supervisor wouldn't let us work 21 8 days in a row. We had to take that 22nd day 9 off. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : Do you guys have anything 12 unofficial like that that -- 13 MR. : Well they have their two 14 days off. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : So, you get two days off. 17 So -- 18 MR. : Is that -- 19 MR. : -- and that -- 20 MR. : Is it required that they 21 take those two days? 22 MR. : Yeah. You take your two 23 days. What you choose to do with those two 24 days is your business. But we don't, like if 25 someone, it has to be an emergency. Let's say EFTA00125568 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 it's your Friday. You won't get mandated on a 2 Friday because Federal Law states you have to 3 have X amount of hours off during the week. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : In conjunction to days off. 6 So, (Indiscernible *01:08:57). 7 MR. : So, the most 16-hour days 8 an employee can work is five, so they have two 9 days off? 10 MR. : Well not necessarily, 11 because you could say hey I want to work on my 12 days off. 13 MR. : Okay. So, you can come in 14 on your days off then? 15 MR. : On your days off. That's 16 voluntary. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I can't just turn around 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. : -- and say you have to stay 21 but if you want -- 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Um -- 24 MR. : Okay. Anything on the 25 overtime? EFTA00125569 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MS. : No. 2 MR. : Okay. Talk a little bit 3 about the cameras in the facility. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : What is your understanding 6 on the general reliability of them? 7 MR. : They're not good. We were 8 just funded to get new cameras installed but, 9 you know, when you're installing the cameras, 10 there's a lot you have to do. The building is 11 built in 1975. It's not like a new building, 12 and we've got to go through cinderblock. 13 There's a lot of things that, you know, are in 14 that block. Asbestos. So, we have to do the 15 wiring. SO, the system is outdated. Um -- 16 MR. : When you say they're not, 17 are they not reliable? Is it poor quality in 18 recording? What's the 19 MR. : It's the recording, but what 20 do they call that, the DVRs? 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : The ones that hold the 23 recordings, they're breaking down. So, 24 sometimes we have where they're not recording. 25 We have to get it fixed, you know, more along EFTA00125570 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 those lines. 2 MR. : How were you aware, how 3 are you as the Warden made aware of cameras not 4 working appropriately or any issues with the 5 recording devices? 6 MR. : The department head would 7 bring it up to me, or the Associate Warden 8 would tell me, you know, we were informed that 9 the cameras aren't working. 10 MR. : What is the normal 11 procedure when the cameras go down? 12 MR. : So, if the cameras go down, 13 then the contact has to look and determine 14 what's the problem with the cameras. 15 MR. : Okay. How long would you 16 say that the cameras have been unreliable? 17 MR. : What do you mean by 18 "unreliable?" 19 MR. : I'm sorry, how long would 20 you say the cameras have been not working? 21 MR. : They work, but periodically 22 they go down. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : That's what I meant by it, 25 but they do record. You can, you know, it's EFTA00125571 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 the quality. Like you go to some places and 2 some agencies where you have that bird vision 3 type camera. That's not what we have. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : I mean, it's, you can see 6 things, we can do some identifying, but they're 7 not, you know, and they're only in certain 8 locations. 9 MS. : And again, the chain of 10 notification is the staff, the Corrections 11 Officers or Corrections worker notifies the 12 Shift Lieutenant? 13 MR. : As far as with the cameras? 14 MS. : Yes. If they're -- 15 MR. : It depends on -- 16 MS. : -- not operating. 17 MR. : -- who's using the cameras 18 and reviewing the cameras. 19 MS. : Okay. 20 MR. : You know, usually our 21 investigative department's doing it, and they 22 do the check, and if they come in and check and 23 check the cameras and say, stuff's not 24 recording, then they notify the Comp Shop or 25 the facilities manager and say, hey, we have a EFTA00125572 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 problem. The cameras are not recording. 2 MS. : So, does SIS have a room 3 where they can see the cameras in the facility? 4 MR. : We have a, the camera room 5 is in our communications room behind that area. 6 MS. : Okay. So, if a camera, if 7 the camera in the SHU was not working -- 8 MR. : Um-hum. 9 MS. : -- someone in that camera 10 room would be able to see that there's no feed 11 from that particular camera? 12 MR. : It's not the feed, it's the 13 recording. You can have, you always have the 14 life feed that you can see what's going on. 15 it's the recording of it. 16 MS. : Um-hum. 17 MR. : And the recordings 18 typically, and don't quote me on it, are on a 19 two-week or less timeline. So, what it is is, 20 if it gets to that two-week period, the memory 21 gets full, then it starts re-recording over 22 again. So, that's how most camera systems 23 work. 24 MS. : But if for instance a 25 camera in the SHU was down -- EFTA00125573 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : Right. 2 MS. : -- someone in that camera 3 room would see that the camera was down. 4 MR. : Or the SIS would check and 5 say, determine hey the recordings are not down 6 or yeah, you're right, or even the screen. 7 MS. : Um-hum. 8 MR. : If we didn't have a visual 9 screen to say, hey, there's problems with the 10 camera. 11 MS. : And did that happen with 12 the SHU camera? Was anyone notified that it 13 wasn't working? 14 MR. : Well, and this is what I was 15 told after the fact, the SIS Lieutenant I 16 believe conveyed that to the Communication 17 Officer that there was a problem with the 18 cameras. 19 MS. : Is that Lieutenant 20 (phonetic sp.)? 21 MR. : Lieutenant 22 MS. : And it's a she? 23 MR. : Yes, she. 24 MS. : When did she know about 25 it? EFTA00125574 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : I believe she told me she 2 told him on Thursday that she made a 3 notification for it. 4 MS. : Okay. 5 MR. : Um -- 6 MS. : And that would be an oral 7 notification? 8 MR. : I'm not sure. 9 MS. : Okay. 10 MR. : But she did say she notified 11 him. So -- 12 MS. : Okay. 13 MR. : Are you made aware of 14 those notifications as well that the cameras 15 are down and not working? 16 MR. : It would depend. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You know, on how bad it was. 19 If it was something that you can run out and 20 fix immediately, you know, it would say, hey, 21 you know, we can fix it. But if it was 22 something that was going to be for a while, I 23 would have to be notified. 24 MR. : And were you notified of 25 this? EFTA00125575 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : I was told on Saturday. 2 yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. You were told after 4 5 MR. : After -- 6 MR. : -- the fact. 7 MR. : -- the fact I was told. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : That the cameras weren't 10 working. 11 MR. : I'm sorry, just who 12 notified you of this? 13 MR. : Lieutenant told me. 14 MR. : Lieutenant, okay. Talking 15 about, let's talk about phone calls in the SHU. 16 MR. : Um-hum. 17 MR. : What are the regulations 18 or policies about giving inmates unreported 19 phone calls? 20 MR. : During the intake screening, 21 you can come in and in certain SHU situations, 22 an inmate will get an unmonitored call if they 23 don't have their telephone account set up. 24 MR. : okay. 25 MR. : So, they're afforded that EFTA00125576 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 112 1 opportunity. 2 MR. : How does the inmate get a 3 telephone account set up? 4 MR. : Typically he has to go out 5 of SHU into a housing unit and go through the 6 voice recognition process in order to get set 7 up for it. You can't do it in the Special 8 Housing Unit. 9 MR. : And we said earlier that 10 Mr. Epstein was never left, was always in 11 Special Housing Unit. 12 MR. : Was always in the Special 13 Housing Unit. 14 MR. : Did he have an opportunity 15 to get a telephone account set up? 16 MR. : The problem with Mr. Epstein 17 was he was in the attorney room all day. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : From beginning to end, and 20 that's something that you do during the daytime 21 because our communications people are there. 22 So, we did, and then again, he had to be in an 23 assigned unit to get that. It's just to have 24 it set up. 25 MR. : Okay. Was Mr. Epstein EFTA00125577 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 allowed phone calls? 2 MR. : Was he what? 3 MR. : Was Mr. Epstein allowed 4 phone calls? 5 MR. : Yeah. His initial one, he 6 didn't get his initial one, so we had to give 7 him a call, his initial call when he came in. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Then while you're in the 10 Special Housing Unit, you're entitled to one 11 call every 30 days. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, he was entitled to a 30- 14 day phone call. 15 MR. : And are those normally 16 monitored, recorded? How do those? 17 MR. : Typically in his case, that 18 he didn't have his monitor set up, the unit 19 manager stood there and listened to the call. 20 MR. : Okay. Um -- 21 MS. : And would that be the 22 Lieutenant? 23 MR. : No. It was the Unit 24 Manager. 25 MS. : And who would that be? EFTA00125578 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That was Mr. 2 (phonetic sp.), 3 MS. : Okay. 4 MR. : So -- 5 MR. : So, Mr. should 6 have been listening to that phone call? 7 MR. : Right, and from what I 8 understand, he was listening. 9 MR. : Okay. Are those phone 10 calls recorded anywhere to ensure just to -- 11 MR. : No, they're not recorded, 12 but we can trace the phone line to get the 13 phone number. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : To determine where the call 16 was made. 17 MR. : Okay. And in tracing of 18 that to get the phone number, is the length of 19 the call -- 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : -- noted as well? 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : Okay. But in terms of 24 putting that into a system or a monitoring, 25 there's not a database for that? EFTA00125579 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 MR. : We didn't, because again, he 2 wasn't set up. 3 MR. : Okay. Are you aware of 4 how many phone calls Mr. Epstein's made while 5 in the Special Housing Unit? 6 MR. : I'm not sure. I'm not aware 7 how many made. But I don't, I know he made 8 that one -- 9 MR. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : -- that day and I'm aware of 11 the initial one, but I don't believe he made 12 that many, because I do believe I saw a 13 correspondence that his attorney made to our 14 attorney about him getting a phone call. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That he hadn't gotten a 17 phone call. So, there's some correspondence on 18 that. 19 MR. : Okay. You got any else on 20 the -- 21 MS. : No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. III: Let's go over real quick 24 (Indiscernible *01:18:13). 25 MR. : We covered this a little EFTA00125580 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 earlier. I just wanted to go over it again. 2 When were you first notified of Mr. Epstein's 3 suicide, or medical, or situation? 4 MR. : About 6:45 -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : -- 6:50. 7 MR. : Who did you notify? 8 MR. : I immediately called my boss 9 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- to let him know and then 12 tell him that I was on my way to the 13 institution. 14 MR. : Did you notify anybody 15 else? 16 MR. : Who, me? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MR. : No. I just, I let him know, 19 get dressed, get to the institution. 20 MR. : Okay. When you arrived az 21 the institution, did you speak to any staff 22 there? 23 MR. : When I got there, I saw 24 obviously the Lieutenant. Um -- 25 MR. : Which -- EFTA00125581 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 117 1 MS. : Lieutenant 2 MR. : Uh, Lieutenant when he 3 came in and my first, you know, any time you 4 have a suicide attempt, you want to make sure 5 your staff are all right and how they're doing. 6 So, I went to, you know, to check on him to 7 kind of get a debrief on what was going on. He 8 kind of debriefed me on the situation. Um -- 9 MR. : What did Lieutenant 10 tell you? 11 MR. : So, I asked him, so I 12 basically told him what happened, and he said, 13 he talked to Officer Noel and she said we 14 didn't do the 3 o'clock count or the 5 o'clock 15 count. 16 And then he said he talked to Noel, 17 Officer Noel, and she said, no he talked to 18 Officer Thomas and that Officer Thomas said, "I 19 messed up. We messed up." Something about it's 20 not her fault. But he said he was just talking 21 way off the line. 22 Let me back-track a little. I did make 23 one more call, because I couldn't get in 24 contact with Lieutenant I called up to 25 the Special Housing Unit. EFTA00125582 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : And I believe Ms. Noel 3 picked up the phone, and I asked her, you know, 4 what was going. And she told me what was going 5 on. But she really couldn't talk. So, then I 6 came, when I got to the institution, I saw her 7 and I said, "Hey, are you all right? Is 8 everything fine." And she was like okay. 9 So, I had somebody from our crisis support 10 team that was there talk to her to make sure 11 that she was all right, and then I went to try 12 to find Thomas. She said Thomas had left. 13 So, I said, okay, "Left where? Where did 14 he go?" 15 They said, you know, "He went home. He 16 was distraught." 17 So, then I get another call saying Thomas 18 was outside, and that he told me, "I'm not 19 answering any questions from you. I want my 20 union", I said Thomas, "I'm not concerned about 21 what happened. I'm concerned about your well- 22 being. Make sure you're all right. You've 23 been through a traumatic experience", and he 24 just kept talking. 25 So, there was a staff member out there. I EFTA00125583 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 said, try to find him if he's outside. So, 2 they went outside and they said, you know, he 3 was gone. 4 I didn't see Ms. Noel, but I told them to 5 get a memorandum from her on what happened. 6 They told me said she wasn't feeling well and 7 she had to talk to her Union rep. 8 So, and I said, "You know what, let them 9 go. We'll get back with them or somebody will 10 get back with them." And they left. And we 11 just started the process of collecting and 12 preserving. 13 MS. : Have Noel or Thomas been 14 in to work since then? 15 MR. : No. Noel, I sent some 16 support staff on Sunday to go talk to them. 17 Today, the mother of Thomas' child, she works 18 at the institution but they're not together, 19 said, "Hey, he was with her all weekend but she 20 can't get in contact with him." I sent her and 21 a Lieutenant to go over to his house to find 22 out if he's okay. He called me a little irate 23 saying, "You know, you're sending people to my 24 house. You know, I was sleeping." 25 I said, "I'm checking on your well-being", EFTA00125584 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 you know. And then I didn't know, and I asked 2 him, I said, "Did you call in for work today?" 3 And he said, "Yes, I did." And he said, 4 "He was sleeping and he was tired." 5 And I said, "Well I'm just checking on 6 your well-being and just seeing how you are", 7 and I left it at that. 8 MS. : That was this morning? 9 MR. : That was this morning. 10 MS. : So, he basically called in 11 sick today? 12 MR. : He called in sick today. 13 She's on days off Monday and Tuesday. 14 MS. : Okay. 15 MR. : I'm going to assign both of 16 them with no inmate contact, so they're going 17 to be away from inmates and assigned on the 18 outside (Indiscernible *01:23:09). 19 MS. : And then Lieutenant 20 MR. : And then that's basically 21 what Lieutenant told me, and I told him, 22 "Write a memorandum on what was said", and he 23 wrote the memorandum and he submitted it. 24 MS. : Has he been in to work 25 since Saturday? EFTA00125585 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 MR. : Yes, he did. Actually he 2 stayed there late on Saturday. He basically 3 worked a double, and then he came back and 4 worked during the day on it. So, he hasn't 5 taken any time off. 6 MS. : Is he there now? 7 MR. : He's there. He's there 8 today, so he's working here. 9 MS. : And -- 10 MR. : Oh, and I do have an 11 addition. And I did ask him, you know, when he 12 got there what happened, and he says, he 13 doesn't know what the condition was because 14 when Thomas called for the emergency medical, 15 he opened the door and took him down himself 16 and started life-saving measures. 17 MS. : So, Epstein was hanging 18 from the door? 19 MR. : We don't know what he was 20 doing because Thomas was the first one there, 21 and when responding staff came, he was already 22 there doing compressions and life-saving 23 measures. So, I definitively can't say where, 24 was he hanging? What position he was or not 25 because nobody knows when they responded, so. EFTA00125586 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : What is the policy 2 regarding if an Officer or staff member sees an 3 inmate in that situation? 4 MR. : Okay. And I won't want to 5 quote this is a policy thing, but you call for 6 assistance and you wait for assistance to come 7 because you don't know if that's a ploy. So, 8 if you go in there as one person, and you know, 9 when somebody's hanging, that's dead. That is 10 dead weight. 11 So, you go in there, you don't know if 12 it's a ploy. So, you go in there and get 13 overpowered, guess what? Now that individual 14 has the cell door keys for every key on that 15 range, and that could be a recipe for disaster. 16 So, it might sound inhumane that, you 17 know, we have to wait because the individual on 18 the grill can't come down range either because 19 if they get overpowered, guess what, we've lost 20 a whole unit. And that's the most secure unit 21 in the institution. 22 So, she has to stay outside with the keys 23 on the grill because there are two different 24 keys. They don't mix. And we wait for 25 responding staff to come in and perform, you EFTA00125587 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 know, the life-saving measures without 2 endangering your safety. 3 So, he went in and, you know, so again, 4 there's no idea of what the cell looked like, 5 what his position was, or anything. 6 MS. : Captain and Captain 7 , are they at work now? 8 MR. : Captain 9 MS. : I think. 10 MR. : His secretary is 11 MS. : Okay. 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MS. : That may be a mistake. 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MS. : So, Captain was the 16 Captain on Friday; right? 17 MR. : Yes. 18 MS. : Okay. 19 MR. : And I need to, and I'm not 20 sure if he was at work either. I think he 21 might've been off. But is his 22 secretary. 23 MS. , okay. And 24 Lieutenant is it 25 MR. -: was the EFTA00125588 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 midnight Lieutenant. 2 MS. : Okay. And he, she? 3 MR. : She worked, apparently she 4 worked at night and relieved her early. 5 MS. : Okay. 6 MR. : At 5:33, but then I heard 7 she came back and then left again. So, I don't 8 know, I believe she went up to the unit. 9 MS. : Has she been at work since 10 then? 11 MR. : I believe she's on days off. 12 MS. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, she'll be back tonight. 14 MS. : Okay. Do you want to step 15 out for a minute? 16 MR. : Actually before -- 17 MS. : Unless you have anything 18 (Indiscernible *01:27:13). 19 MR. : Just a few 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- if I can jump back a 22 little bit. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Specifically go back to, 25 did you have any one-on-one interactions with EFTA00125589 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 Epstein? 2 MR. : Let's see, I had one, I saw 3 him by the attorney visit, small conversation. 4 Another one I saw him when I was making rounds 5 on the unit when he had first gotten into the 6 cell with He was going into the shower. 7 I asked him, "How was everything going." He 8 said, "I'm good. I'm fine." 9 And then , I said, "How's he doing?" 10 was like, "I want to go back to a unit." 11 So, you know, was just that type of 12 conversation while making rounds. 13 MR. : Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And did you want just step 16 outside? 17 MR. : Huh? 18 MR. Do you mind if we just take 19 step out? 20 MR. : No, I have no problem. 21 MR. : It is 12:23. We're 22 pausing the interview. 23 We're resuming the interview at this time. 24 It is 12:29 in the afternoon. 25 MS. : Okay. So, the first EFTA00125590 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 question is, I just want to make sure we have 2 the name right. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MS. : The Lieutenant or the 5 Captain that you told that Epstein should have 6 a cellmate? 7 MR. : Well, it was Captain 8 9 MS. , okay. 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MS. : Okay. And I know you're 12 probably already doing this, but we just wanted 13 to make sure you're preserving all of the 14 emails that you referenced, any text messages 15 that you've sent about this, any communications 16 that you've had at all. 17 MR. : Well when I had gave the 18 direction, it was given verbally in a meeting. 19 MS. : Um-hum. 20 MR. : I didn't send emails out. 21 had a direct conversation. 22 MS. : Okay. 23 MR. : So, it was everyone in the 24 room. So -- 25 MS. : Okay. But for instance, EFTA00125591 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 the email that you sent listing here are the 2 three possibilities for 3 MR. : Oh, yes. 4 MS. : -- who's 5 MR. : All of that -- 6 MS. : -- the best. All of that. 7 MR. : Yeah. If you want that 8 MS. : -- you're preserving. 9 MR. : -- that's there. It's 10 preserved. 11 MS. : Okay. 12 MR. : I'm sure this will 13 inevitably happen, and it's a report for this. 14 Has that already been drafted? Is that a 15 process? 16 MR. : For? 17 MR. : Will there be an incident 18 report regarding the discovery of Jeffrey 19 Epstein's body? 20 MR. : It's called a report of 21 incident, a 583. So, we did that today. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : You know 24 MR. : Um-hum. 25 MR. : -- just a brief statement on EFTA00125592 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 what happened, the times -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- and moving forward with 4 that. 5 MR. : Do you know who drafted 6 that? 7 MR. : The SIS Lieutenant does it. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then I review it because 10 it's ultimately sent from me. It's a report of 11 incident -- 12 MR. : Um-hum. 13 MR. : -- to our central office. 14 So, I look at it, the synopsis. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Just for terminology to make 17 sure it's accurate. And it's just a brief 18 statement saying that, you know, he made 19 rounds. 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. : He was unresponsive. Life- 22 saving measures were initiated. Taken to the 23 outside hospital and then he was pronounced 24 deceased at that time. And then we just move 25 on from there. EFTA00125593 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 MR. : Just a couple of more -- 2 MR. : Um-hum. 3 MR. : -- housekeeping stuff just 4 to say, have you had any contact with the press 5 regarding this? 6 MR. : No, I have not. 7 MR. : Has any press contacted 8 you directly? 9 MR. : No, they have not. 10 MR. : Have you directed any 11 staff to destroy anything? 12 MR. : No, I have not. 13 MR. : What directions have you 14 given the staff in terms of preserving things? 15 MR. : So, initially when we came, 16 when I got in, I told the Captain, get all the 17 log books up there, the rounds, anything 18 pertaining to get it and anything we can think 19 of that might be needed. And it's given to the 20 SIS. It's in the SIS office with the SIS 21 Lieutenant. 22 So, told them to preserve it, and whoever 23 needed it, I know the IG has come by. They've 24 taken some stuff. But basically preserve 25 everything that might be needed to be EFTA00125594 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 preserved. And then if any requests come, you 2 know, we'll go and get it and preserve it. 3 MR. : Are you -- 4 MS. : Can I just ask one quick 5 question about the log books? 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : Actually while she's 8 looking at it -- 9 MS. : Yeah. 10 MR. : do you mind? 11 MS. : This is -- 12 MR. : Are you aware of any 13 objects missing from his cell? Are you aware 14 of anything peculiar occurring since his 15 suicide? Since his body was discovered? 16 MR. : You mean missing from his 17 cell? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. : I didn't observe the cell, 20 so I don't know what's in -- 21 MR. : Were you ever notified of 22 any, after his body was discovered, have you 23 been notified of any peculiarities or anything 24 that stuck out in your mind as odd? 25 MR. : As far as what would've been EFTA00125595 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 in his cell, or? 2 MR. : Anything in general as it 3 relates to him? 4 MR. : Not that I can think of. I 5 mean, it's just documents that we're still 6 trying to gather -- 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. and locate, but -- 9 MR. : It's nothing odd because I 10 don't know what happened in that cell. 11 MR. : Um-hum. 12 MR. : So, I don't know what 13 would be -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- considered odd. Were 16 you aware of him having any contraband in his 17 cell? 18 MR. : Contraband? 19 MR. : Anything -- 20 MR. : Well -- 21 MR. : -- he wasn't supposed tc 22 have? Any unapproved things in his cell? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I mean, he would've received EFTA00125596 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 an incident report. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : And the only incident report 4 he had was, I guess it was the cloth that was 5 found on the initial one, but then our 6 Disciplinary Hearing Officer concluded that we 7 couldn't' sustain any charges on him because it 8 was inconclusive -- 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : -- with it, but that's -- 11 MR. : Okay. And were you aware 12 of him having any enemies or anything, or being 13 a specific target by anybody? 14 MR. : Where? 15 MR. : In the institution? 16 MR. : No. I mean no one's came to 17 me specifically saying, you know, "He's my 18 enemy", or all that, so I don't, you know. 19 MR. : Was he not to be, not to 20 be celled with anybody because of any problems 21 that he would have, or -- 22 MR. : I mean. 23 MR. : Let me rephrase that a 24 little. Were you aware of any other inmates 25 who had targeted him specifically? EFTA00125597 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. 2 MR. 3 MR. 4 MS. 5 MR. 6 MS. 133 : No. : Okay. : Um-hum. : The log books : Um-hum. : -- just for the record, 7 I'm showing a log book Tier G dated 08/10/2019. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MS. : So, this is filled out by 10 a Corrections Officer 11 MR. : Right. 12 MS. : -- who's doing the checks 13 14 MR. : Right. 15 MS. : -- every 30 minutes. 16 MR. : Um-hum. 17 MS. : Correct? 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MS. : And they're supposed to 20 write the time they start and end and then 21 initial it? 22 MR. : Who did it. 23 MS. : And then the Operations 24 Lieutenant signs it at the end of the shift. 25 MR. : The shift that they reviewed EFTA00125598 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 it. 2 MS. : Okay. Okay. 3 MR. : This is not complete for the 4 simple fact that, you know, with the emergency 5 coming, I had them take it and preserve it. 6 So, it was part of the preservation. So, 7 that's probably why it doesn't go all the way 8 up to 8 o'clock. 9 MS. : Got it. 10 MR. : Because as soon as I came 11 in, I told the Lieutenant grab the 30-minute 12 checks. 13 MS. : And is this a signature or 14 a circle for a signature? 15 MR. : That's a signature. 16 MS. : Okay. 17 MR. : Whoever was in, and I 18 believe, and I'm not sure, but if it was the 19 morning watch Lieutenant, it would be 20 Lieutenant 21 MS. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MS. : I think that's all the 24 questions that we have. 25 MR. : Great. That's it. The EFTA00125599 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 time is now 12:35. Warden, we really 2 appreciate your time. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : And the interview is 5 completed, oh actually before we do that. Is 6 there anything that you would like to tell us? 7 Any statements that you would like to make? 8 Anything you think we should know about the 9 incident in general? Just wanted to give you 10 an opportunity if there's anything that you 11 think we should know that we haven't discussed. 12 MR. : I can't think of anything 13 else. But I mean, as it comes along, I'll pass 14 it on to the IG. Anything I get or any 15 information. 16 MR. : Thank you. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00125600 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of , Transcriber EFTA00125601