EFTA00126362.pdf

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 JUNE 15, 2021 21 22 23 24 25 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00126362 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 NONE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00126363 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : All right. The recorder 2 is on. Today is Tuesday, June 15, 2021, and 3 the time is 10:08 III. My name is 4 , and I am a Senior Special Agent 5 with the U.S. Department of Justice Office of 6 the Inspector General, New York Field Office. 7 And these are my credentials. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : This interview with 10 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee - let me see 11 - is it Jermaine? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. -: , is being 14 conducted as part of an official U.S. 15 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 16 General investigation. Today's date is - again 17 - June 15, 2021. This interview is being 18 conducted at the West Side - within the West 19 Side Administrative Building, second floor 20 conference room, FCI Fort Dix, New Jersey. 21 Also present is DOJ OIG Special Agent 22 and Mr. This interview will be 23 recorded by me, Senior Special Agent 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell their last EFTA00126364 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 name? To start, again, I am DOJ OIG Senior 2 Special Agent, 4 MR. : This is DOJ Special Agent 5 6 MR. : This is BOP employee, 7 8 MR. : All right. Thank you, 9 everyone. And this is an official DOJ 10 investigation surrounding the circumstances of 11 Jeffrey Epstein's death, and you are being 12 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 13 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 14 interview with the DOJ OIG? 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : Great. We're just going 17 to review the DOJ OIG voluntary interview form. 18 III going to read it for the record. It says, 19 United States Department of Justice Office of 20 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 21 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 22 a Voluntary Basis." "You are being asked to 23 provide information as part of an investigation 24 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00126365 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 5 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure and security failure. This 4 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 5 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 6 action will be taken against you if you choose 7 not to answer questions. Any statements you 8 furnished may be used as evidence in any future 9 criminal proceedings, or Agency disciplinary 10 proceedings, or both." And there is a waiver. 11 It says, "I understand the Warnings and 12 Assurances stated above and I am willing to 13 make a statement and answer questions. No 14 promises or threats have been made to me, and 15 no pressure or coercion of any kind has been 16 used against me." You can take a look at that, 17 if you would like, and if you agree, you can 18 sign where it says Employee's Signature. 19 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:02:57) 20 copy of this. 21 MR. : This isn't what I wanted. 22 Do you need it? Thank you, sir, for signing. I 23 am going to sign as the signature of the Office 24 of the Inspector General Special Agent. And I 25 am going to print my name. Mr. do you EFTA00126366 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 mind just printing your name where it says 2 Employee's Name? Sorry. 3 MR. : All right. 4 MR. : Right below it. 5 MR. : Thank you, sir. And 6 Special Agent , can you sign that as the 7 witness? 8 MR. : Yes. This is Special Agent 9 . I have signed as a witness. 10 MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you 11 hold onto that? And do you understand the OIG 12 form? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Great. Before starting, 15 I would like you place you under oath. Can you 16 just raise your right hand? Mr. do you 17 swear to tell the truth and nothing but the 18 truth during this interview? 19 MR. : I do. 20 MR. : Thank you, sir. Can you 21 just show me your credentials, for the record, 22 to make sure that -- 23 MR. : Here you go, sir. 24 MR. : -- all right. For the 25 record, I am looking at the U.S. Department of EFTA00126367 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons credentials 2 of Mr. . It says that he is the 3 Discipline Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix in 4 New Jersey. And it has a picture of him. 5 Thank you, sir. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : All right. And what is 8 your current home address? 9 MR. • • 11 MR. : Thank you. And what is 12 your current cell phone number? 13 MR. : It is 14 MR. : And what is your highest 15 level of education? 16 MR. : I have three years of 17 college. 18 MR. : And where did you go to 19 college? 20 MR. : I went to - I actually have 21 my Associates Degree at Northwestern State 22 University. 23 MR. : And where is that 24 located? 25 MR. : That's going to be in 7 EFTA00126368 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 8 1 Natchitoches, Louisiana. 2 MR. : Great. And what was that 3 Associate's degree in? 4 MR. : It was in Social Work. 5 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 6 what year? 7 MR. : I believe it was 2012 or '13. 8 MR. : Great. Thanks. Did you 9 have any employment prior to the BOP? 10 MR. : Yes. I had worked almost two 11 years for the Colorado Department of 12 Corrections. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : As a Correctional Officer. 15 And before that, I spent 11 years - almost ten 16 years - well, nine years, 11 months in the 17 United States Army. 18 MR. : Awesome. Thanks for your 19 service. 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : When did you work as a 22 Correctional Officer for two years? 23 MR. : In Colorado? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : I believe the dates were from EFTA00126369 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 July of 2004 to November 27 or November 26 of 2 2005. 3 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 4 you said you were in the - did you say the 5 Army? 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : And what was your rank in 8 the Army? 9 MR. : I was a Sergeant. 10 MR. : Honorable discharge? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : When you left, what was 13 your primary responsibility? 14 MR. : Basically, at that time, I 15 was a Section Sergeant, as a topographical 16 surveyor. 17 MR. : Okay. And what was that? 18 Where did you say? 19 MR. : Sir? 20 MR. : The topographical? 21 MR. : It's a topographical surveyor 22 23 MR. : Oh, a surveyor. 24 MR. : -- (Indiscernible *00:07:19) 25 surveyor. Right. EFTA00126370 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : Okay. Perfect. And 2 then, you said a Sergeant. E-4, E-5? 3 MR. E-5. 4 MR. : E-5. All right. When 5 was your Enter on Duty date with the Bureau of 6 Prisons? 7 MR. : 09/27/2005. No. III sorry. 8 11/27/2005. 9 MR. : Great. And when did you 10 graduate from BOP training down at the Federal 11 Law Enforcement Training Center? 12 MR. : I believe it was March of 13 2006. 14 MR. : Okay. We don't have to 15 go through it. Or I guess, just briefly, I 16 mean, what positions have you held with the 17 BOP? You don't have to go into each 18 institution. Just, like 19 MR. : Right. I started as a five, 20 step one. I've - with more responsibility - 21 was promoted to through six, seven, Senior 22 Officer Specialist. I was also a GL-9 23 Lieutenant. A GL-11 Lieutenant. I was the 24 Deputy Captain, GL-12. And I was also a GL-13. 25 And currently, I am at the GL-12 Discipline EFTA00126371 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Hearing Officer at FCI Fort Dix. 2 MR. : All right. Great. And 3 is it correct that you used to work at the MCC 4 in New York City? 5 MR. : That is correct. 6 MR. : All right. And what were 7 your positions when you were at the MCC? 8 MR. : MCC, I was the Captain. 9 MR. : Okay. And from what 10 dates were you the Captain? 11 MR. : I was the Captain from 12 September of, I believe it was third, 2018, all 13 the way until June 25 of 2020. 14 MR. : Okay. Great. And then, 15 was that your first assignment as a Captain? 16 MR. : No. That was my second. 17 MR. : What was your first 18 assignment as a Captain? 19 MR. : My first assignment as a 20 Captain was - I was a Deputy Captain at MDC 21 Brooklyn. 22 MR. : Okay. And then you got 23 promoted, and went to MCC? 24 MR. : Yes. Yes. 25 MR. : And what does the MCC EFTA00126372 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 stand for? 2 MR. : The Metropolitan Correctional 3 Center. 4 MR. : Perfect. And located at 5 150 Park Row, New York, New York? 6 MR. : That is correct. 7 MR. : Thank you, sir. As a 8 Captain, who would you consider your Supervisor 9 when you were at the MCC? 10 MR. : It would be, at that point, 11 at that time, we was transitioning. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, I would, normally, I 14 would answer to two people, which would be the 15 AW of Custody, which, at that time, was 16 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : However, we was transitioning 19 when that incident happened. It was 20 was the AW over Custody at that time. 21 MR. : All right. So, when you 22 are talking about that time, are you talking 23 about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. So, are you aware EFTA00126373 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 13 1 of was still the AW in 2 charge of Custody at that time? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : She was not? Okay. 5 MR. : No. Basically, what it was 6 again - with the areas of responsibility had 7 changed, prior -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. to this incident. So, 10 that week, Ms. was going to be 11 even though hers responsibilities had changed 12 as the AW over Custody, and Warden 13 had appointed - or instructed - 14 that Ms. would then take over the 15 responsibilities. But however, she was 16 supposed to go on annual leave. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, at that time, Ms. 19 was actually there, as far as, 20 she was still in that capacity when the 21 incident happened. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : However, again, the previous 24 question that you asked, normally, as my 25 responsibilities, I would notify the AW over EFTA00126374 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 14 1 Custody, and also, I would have conversations 2 the Warden. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So, it would just depends on 5 what the situation may be. So, if there was 6 instances where I would run things through the 7 chain, from the AW to the Warden, and there was 8 times that I would take direction directly from 9 the Warden. 10 MR. : Okay. As far as, though, 11 in this instance, if, you know, being that 12 August 9th and August 10th, I believe that the 13 first person you contacted when you were 14 MR. : Was 15 MR. : -- correct. And that was 16 because the other AW was out. Is that what you 17 were saying? 18 MR. : My belief is that she was on 19 annual leave, which was stated 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : -- that we had closed out on 22 that Friday, that she would be starting annual 23 leave. 24 MR. : Okay. But the other AW 25 was, in fact, your Supervisor at that time? EFTA00126375 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : Okay. Which you just 3 said was - you went with 4 because she was on? 5 MR. : That's right. 6 MR. : Okay. Have you since 7 learned anything about, like, was that not 8 correct? 9 MR. : Well, what I realized is 10 that, once the incident had occurred, AW 11 responded to the institution, at which time her 12 annual leave, I believe she cancelled her 13 annual leave, and she assumed her position as 14 the AW over Custody. 15 MR. : All right. How do you 16 spell her last name? 17 MR. : Ms. 18 MR. : Yes. 19 MR. -: 20 MR. : Perfect. Thank you. AL 21 right. So, is it correct that you were 22 interviewed by Agents of the FBI and the DOJ 23 OIG back when this instance occurred in August 24 of 2019? 25 MR. : That is correct. EFTA00126376 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 MR. : Great. III just going to 2 go over the report that was written in response 3 to their conversations with you. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : We want to just go over 6 for accuracy, as well as to fill in some gaps 7 that we've found, that we just need some 8 clarification on. 9 MR. : Absolutely. 10 MR. So, Ill just going to 11 read it. And you stop me if there is anything 12 that you find that is inaccurate. 13 MR. : Correct. 14 MR. : All right. So, " 15 began his career with the BOP in Florence, 16 Colorado in 2005." 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : "In 2014, he was 19 transferred to the Metropolitan Detention 20 Center, MDC, in Brooklyn, to Captain at MCC, 21 his current position, where he over -". Or 22 sorry. 23 MR. : Yeah. There's a lot missing 24 in between there. 25 MR. : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00126377 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah. Right. 2 MR. : So, it says, "In 3 Brooklyn." I missed this line. It says, 4 "Where he was made Deputy Captain in 2015. In 5 2018, was promoted to Captain at MCC, 6 his current position, where he oversees 7 security for the entire building." 8 MR. : Well, yeah. There was a 9 little bit missing there because, yeah, I 10 entered on duty, and I started my career in 11 Florence. However, I left Florence in 2009. 12 And that's when I went to . FCC 13 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And then, from FCC 16 from 2009, I was there to 2014. And then, from 17 '14, I left to go to MDC Brooklyn. And 18 then, in '18, that's when I assumed duties at 19 MCC. 20 MR. : Okay. So, they have - 21 yes - so, I guess you were transferred to the 22 MDC in Brooklyn, 2014, and in 2015 was when you 23 were promoted to Deputy Captain? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. It says, " EFTA00126378 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 18 1 directly supervises approximately 13 2 Lieutenants." Does that compromise of all the 3 Lieutenants? This was at the time. Was that 4 all the Lieutenants at the MCC? 5 MR. : Correct. 6 MR. : Okay. "And it has 7 approximately 125 to 135 line 8 staff/Correctional Officers under his purview." 9 MR. Mm-hmm. Yes. Well, you 10 know, when they say that, what they understand 11 is, is that, under Correctional Services, that 12 was probably the amount of staff that was - 13 again - in Correctional Services, as 14 subordinate staff. However, my direct 15 supervision would have been over just the 13 16 Lieutenants. 17 MR. : Okay. There are 13 - oh, 18 13 Lieutenants. Right. I thought you were 19 saying GS-13. Gotcha. also sits on 20 the Institution's Executive Staff, which also 21 includes the Warden. primary duty is 22 to ensure that security protocols are met by 23 his Lieutenants and sub-staff, and that policy 24 guidelines are being followed, as set forth by 25 the BOP." EFTA00126379 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 19 1 MR. : Correct. 2 MR. : "Among others, is 3 responsible for the following: Special Housing 4 Unit Lieutenant, Lieutenant ." Is that 5 correct? 6 MR. : Correct. 7 MR. : "As an Administrative 8 Lieutenant, responsible for maintaining 9 paperwork, et cetera." So, when you say an 10 Administrative Lieutenant here, are you saying 11 whoever was Acting in the Administrative 12 Lieutenant -- 13 MR. : Capacity? 14 MR. : position? 15 MR. : No, I wasn't. Basically, 16 Administrative duties. The Administrative 17 duties falls under the appointed SHU 18 Lieutenant. The SHU Lieutenant, the appointed 19 SHU Lieutenant has certain duties that have to 20 be done daily, within the unit. Not just the 21 supervision of the line staff that work the 22 unit, but also over all on running of the Unit. 23 Meaning, that ensuring that all paperwork is 24 done. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126380 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : All security protocols are 2 followed. To ensure that inmates - or run 3 rosters - to ensure that inmates are placed in 4 the correct cells, or in the proper cells. To 5 ensure that they're supposed to audit said 6 rosters, to ensure they have proper 7 accountability of the inmates in the unit. 8 MR. : So, I guess what I was 9 getting at is, like, how the SHU Lieutenant was 10 . Was there a specific person that was the 11 Administrative Lieutenant? 12 MR. : Yes. The Administrative 13 Lieutenant at that time was 14 MR. : And do you happen to know 15 how to spell that last name? 16 MR. : It's 17 MR. : Thank you, sir. "An SIS 18 Lieutenant responsible for paperwork." And who 19 was that? 20 MR. : Which was the Lieutenant 21 (Phonetic Sp. *00:17:10). 22 MR. : And , common 23 spelling? 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : Okay. "And Operations In EFTA00126381 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Activities Lieutenants". 2 MR. : Which are on the day of the 3 incident? 4 MR. : Yeah. And would you like 5 to see the duty roster for August 9th and 6 August 10th? 7 MR. : Hmm-mm. 8 MR. : No? Okay. Do you know 9 who it was? 10 MR. : So, I believe the morning 11 watch Lieutenant, when that incident occurred, 12 was Lieutenant - what is her damn name? - 13 just said her name. 14 MR. : I can show you this. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. So, showing you a 17 duty Agent roster from - or daily assignment 18 roster - from Friday, August 9, 2019, as well 19 as one from Saturday, August 10 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- 2019. 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : And you can keep them in 24 front of you for the -- 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126382 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : -- for the interview, 2 just so you can - we're going to talk about 3 people - so you can reference the two. 4 MR. : Right. All right. So, it 5 appears here, it would have been 6 would have been the 7 Operations Lieutenant on Saturday, August 10, 8 2019. 9 MR. : And is it 10 MR. -: 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 Perfect. And what times did she work 13 from? 14 MR. : At that time, the shift they 15 were working a different schedule. The 16 schedule was, I believe it was 10:00 to 0600. 17 MR. : Okay. So, 10:00 on 18 August 9th to 0600 on August 10th. 19 MR. : That is correct. 20 MR. : And then, Ill assuming 21 there was another Administrative Lieutenant at 22 the, you know, when Epstein was discovered, and 23 I think that was a little after 6:00 III 24 Correct? 25 MR. : That is - yeah - that was the EFTA00126383 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 - actually - the Operations Lieutenant, which 2 was . Lieutenant He informed me - 3 or I guess he became aware of the incident, I 4 believe, at 6:30 that morning. 5 MR. : Okay. And so, I already 6 asked the Operations Lieutenant. It says, "The 7 Operations Lieutenant and the Activities 8 Lieutenant are responsible for day to day 9 operations and maintaining order for three 10 shifts. And an Emergency Preparedness 11 Lieutenant. A Collateral Duty Responsibility 12 in the event of an emergency incident, such as 13 fires, bomb threats, et cetera." So, is there 14 a - during these instances - was there an 15 Emergency Preparedness Lieutenant? 16 MR. : Yes. 17 MR. : Who was that? 18 MR. : I believe it was Lieutenant 19 20 MR. : Lieutenant ? Okay. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Was Lieutenant 23 that day, though? 24 MR. : Lieutenant was, I 25 believe, at that time, his schedule, the SRU EFTA00126384 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 Lieutenants were not working on the weekends. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : They worked Monday through 4 Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4:00. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, Lieutenant was on 7 military - he was on leave. He had military 8 leave because he had his monthly drill, monthly 9 drill -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. that he would attend. 12 MR. : Do you know if he was on 13 leave both on August 9th and August 10th? Or 14 August 10th, you said he wouldn't have worked. 15 But was on the 9th? 16 MR. : Let me see here. 17 MR. : And you can just say, was 18 he on the schedule? 19 MR. : Yeah. So, I mean, right 20 here, III looking at the roster for Friday, 21 August 9th. And I believe that the SHU 22 Lieutenant post was left un-assigned for that 23 Friday. 24 MR. : All right. So, that 25 would just lead us to believe he was not there. EFTA00126385 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 25 1 Correct? 2 MR. : That is correct. He was not 3 there, no. 4 MR. : Great. And would his 5 position have been, like, you know, was there 6 someone that's placed in the Acting role when 7 he's gone, or is -? 8 MR. : Normally, due to our staffing 9 at MCC, at that point, or at that time, we 10 tried to ensure that, you know, looking over 11 the roster, to try to ensure that someone was 12 within there, the supervising unit. But again, 13 due to the shortage of Lieutenants at that 14 time, I had to - as monitoring, or looking at 15 the roster - I would try to place areas of 16 importance, so Operations Lieutenant, ensured 17 that the Activities Lieutenants was filled. 18 And at that time, that particular day, he 19 wasn't on the roster, or that post was left un- 20 assigned. 21 MR. : And that post, like you 22 said, isn't assigned on the weekends. 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, Saturday. Great. 25 MR. : No, it's not. EFTA00126386 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : All right. 2 advised that his staff provide special 3 considerations for high-profile inmates, if 4 deemed appropriate, and designated as such. In 5 order to ensure an inmate is providing with 6 proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate 7 using several measures, including mental, 8 physical, medical, psychological, and sexual 9 assault victim, or predator assessments. Since 10 different inmates are admitted with different 11 criteria, appropriate housing varies." 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : All right. N- 14 interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on 15 approximately three occasions at MCC. All of 16 which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor." 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : "During the first 19 instance, Epstein asked who he was, and 20 responded by introducing himself, and 21 explaining his position at the jail. During 22 another instance, explained to Epstein 23 the policy regarding meals during Attorney 24 sessions, and made certain Epstein was 25 accommodated with water, visits to the EFTA00126387 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 27 1 restroom, et cetera." So, did he receive - and 2 I know, it's my understanding that he was, most 3 days, in with his Attorneys? 4 MR. : Yes. So, most days, from the 5 time that the Attorney visitation would open, 6 inmate Epstein was in that area, primarily, 7 until it closed. 8 MR. : All right. And that's 9 where it says, "Epstein spent most of the day 10 with his Defense Counsel, and was brought down 11 as soon as the Attorney visit opened." So, 12 would that be, like, Monday through Friday, or 13 Monday -- 14 MR. : No. That's -- 15 MR. : -- that's seven days a 16 week? 17 MR. : -- that's seven days a week. 18 MR. : All right. So, was it 19 almost every day? 20 MR. : Every day. 21 MR. : Okay. And was his food 22 brought to him there, then? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. How would he 25 obtain food? EFTA00126388 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 MR. : Now, as far as food, I know - 2 and, like I said, it's been a while - normally, 3 inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : They're provided water. 6 They're provided to go to the bathroom. The 7 inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. 8 However, I believe that he was offered meals 9 from the vending machine. III not sure. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : I can't remember as far as 12 because I didn't remember there was an issue 13 with that, and I know we tried to accommodate, 14 or to address it. I just can't remember 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. what was done. 17 MR. : Would the Attorneys be 18 allowed to bring him in food? 19 MR. : No. No, no, no, no, no. 20 MR. : No? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : No. No. No. No. Outside 24 food would not have been allowed. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126389 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 MR. : So, I can't tell you if he 2 was actually getting a tray, during that time, 3 I can't remember. But I do remember, there 4 were conversations that - and I know we did 5 something in order to ensure that the inmate 6 was provided some type of meal. Or whatever. 7 I can't remember. 8 MR. : Sure. All right. That's 9 fine. As far as the, it mentions two visits. 10 Do you remember anything about the third visit 11 that you made with Epstein? 12 MR. : The third one. So, that 13 night, on - that would be Friday, August 9th of 14 2019, I believe I had worked that day close to 15 8:00. It was about 8:00 or so. 16 MR. : 8:00 III. on August 9? 17 MR. 8:00 III. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Correct. So, I was actually 20 on my way, and exited, you know, went and 21 talked to the Operations and Activities 22 Lieutenants. You know, let them know I was 23 leaving for the day. And when I reached the 24 elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was 25 being escorted out of Attorney visit by his EFTA00126390 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Unit Manager. 2 MR. : Okay. And who was that? 3 MR. : Which that was, I believe, 4 Mr. (Phonetic Sp. *00:25:26) 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : At which time, I, you know, I 7 said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he 8 was, like, okay. So, he had asked me, and he 9 said, Captain, is it okay if I get a telephone 10 call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed 11 that when the inmate - we would reasonably 12 attempt to always facilitate a phone call for 13 the inmate, especially while him being housed 14 in the Special Housing Unit. So, I said to the 15 Unit Manager, Mr. , I said, Mr. 16 are you going to SHU? He said, yeah. I said, 17 well, are you going to be able to monitor the 18 call with the inmate? And he was, like, yeah, 19 got no problem with that. I said, well, I 20 don't have a problem. Just make sure that you 21 follow the protocols, and the protocols is, is 22 when that inmate is allowed to use the phone, 23 it has to be monitored by staff, and the 24 number, and who they're talking to has to be 25 placed in a log. EFTA00126391 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, I said, make sure that 3 takes place. good with it. So, that's 4 when I got in the elevator, and I exited the 5 institution. 6 MR. : All right. So, this 7 conversation happened with , in front of 8 Mr. Epstein? 9 MR. : Yes, it did. 10 MR. : Okay. And that's the 11 point where - okay, so, you did authorize that 12 call to be made, from the SHU? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Was there a certain line 15 that they should have used? 16 MR. : Yes. It's a secure line. 17 You have two lines. You know, you can plug it 18 into the outgoing, and then, it's the jack 19 that's just for inside of the institution 20 calls. Or you can put it into the other jack, 21 which allows those calls to be outgoing. 22 MR. : Would that be called a 23 legal line? 24 MR. : Yeah. It would be just an 25 out. This would be a out, out. EFTA00126392 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Out line. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : And they're not recorded 6 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : -- and that's why you 9 said make sure that it's -- 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : -- and did you -- 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. -: -- did you tell him, at 14 all, to document what was -? 15 MR. : Yes. I told him to ensure 16 that he is present, that - the protocol is, 17 because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make 18 sure that you're present at the phone call. I 19 said, make sure that it's logged. And when you 20 dial the numbers, the number you have to, like, 21 stay on the line and said, he says, well, I 22 want to call my Attorney. Who was your 23 Attorney? So and so, and so and so. Okay. 24 When they answer the phone, I said, this is 25 MCC, my name is so and so. I have a call for EFTA00126393 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 33 1 Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name? And what 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 is your title? So, we can log it. MR. : Okay. MR. : And the time that it's logged. And then, you give the phone to the inmate, and then you sit there while they're on the phone. MR. : And do you know if that was done? MR. : Again, I don't know. MR. : You don't know? MR. : I just ensured. That's it. 13 If you - like I said, that's why I asked him, 14 said, are you going to SHU? And are you going 15 to be able to monitor phone calls? 16 MR. : But you don't know if 17 MR. : He didn't say yes. 18 MR. : -- he wrote up anything? 19 MR. : I don't know what he did. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : I just ensured that I told 22 him. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. : What needed to be done. 25 MR. : And what would typically EFTA00126394 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 happen with that log, then? After he logged it. 2 MR. : That phone call? 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : Or that log? 5 MR. : Like, after he documented 6 it. 7 MR. : It would be maintained, just 8 in a log. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : It wouldn't be brought for 11 anyone's review. You know? It would just be, 12 hey, did, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah. 13 could tell you. So, I can pull the book. And 14 then, I can tell you, and look, when he was 15 given a call. 16 MR. : So, it goes into a 17 specific Epstein file? 18 MR. : Yeah. No. It wouldn't. It 19 doesn't go in a file. It goes into a book. It 20 goes into a book for monitored calls, for all 21 the inmates, and legal calls. 22 MR. : For all inmates. So, not 23 just Epstein. It would be all -- 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : -- inmates? Okay. EFTA00126395 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 35 1 MR. : It would be a green logbook. 2 You know, and it would have the name of the 3 inmate, and who they called, the number, the 4 time. I don't know if the duration is on 5 there. But it will the person who also 6 monitored the call. So, you know, all that 7 information. But it wasn't something, like, a 8 form that was filled out, and then it was 9 placed in the inmate's file. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 MR. : Or central file. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : No. It wasn't like that. 14 MR. : And do you know if that 15 log in the book was filled out? 16 MR. : I don't know. 17 MR. : You don't know. Okay. 18 When you met with Epstein on that night, how 19 was his demeanor? 20 MR. : It was fine. He was 21 cheerful. 22 MR. : He was cheerful. 23 MR. : You know, he didn't look 24 disheveled. He felt - because I asked him, I 25 said, how you doing? You all right? - he said, EFTA00126396 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 man, III good. Everything is fine. And I 2 said, did you have a good visit? And he said, 3 yeah. Everything is fine, Cap. I said, all 4 right, man. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : You know? 7 MR. : No cause for concern? 8 MR. : No, because every time we had 9 that interaction, it was always pleasant. It 10 was never negative. 11 MR. : Okay. It says, " 12 was made aware of the possibility that Epstein 13 would be housed at MCC in advance of Epstein's 14 arrival. was not present when inmate 15 Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein 16 was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was 17 fit for general population, and was ultimately 18 placed in the Special Housing Unit. MCC places 19 inmates under three categories of close 20 supervision. One: dry cell for those at risk 21 for smuggling contraband. Two: psychological 22 observation. And three: suicide watch." 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : Is that all correct? 25 MR. : Yes. At that time, yes. EFTA00126397 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 37 1 MR. : Okay. So, who made the 2 decision to place him in the Special Housing 3 Unit, specifically, and why? 4 MR. : Okay. So, basically, the 5 rationale for placement of the inmate in the 6 Special Housing Unit would have been a decision 7 ultimately made by the Warden. They would have 8 took the criteria of the inmate. They would 9 have been, like, okay, well, what's his risk? 10 You know, what would be the likelihood of him 11 being endangered if he would be placed in 12 general population? His culpability. Can he 13 cope while being inside of a general housing 14 unit? So, the determinations was made between 15 Medical, Health Services - oh, III sorry - 16 Health Services, Psychology, and the Warden. 17 MR. : And who was the Warden at 18 that time? 19 MR. : It was Mr. 20 MR. : And do you know how to 21 spell that last name? 22 MR. : It would be I- -- 23 MR. : Apostrophe. 24 MR. apostrophe, 25 MR. : Thank you, sir. Are EFTA00126398 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 there any other secure housing units within the 2 MCC? 3 MR. : There is only one secured 4 housing unit. That's the SHU. 5 MR. : Okay. Not -- 6 MR. : But however, we do have 7 MR. : -- Ten South (Phonetic 8 Sp. *00:32:04). 9 MR. -- Ten South. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : And Ten South is for, I 12 believe those are for SAM inmates. And those 13 inmates are under a specialized monitoring, 14 which comes from, I believe it's from the 15 Attorney General, I believe. I can't remember 16 who's the person that's over it, but I believe 17 it was the Attorney General, or whoever, makes 18 the determinations for those SAMS inmates. 19 MR. : Okay. And what is SAMS 20 stand for? 21 MR. : I believe - I can't remember. 22 MR. : Okay. But is it, like, 23 S-A-I-S? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. Like, an acronym, EFTA00126399 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 though? 2 MR. : It is an acronym. 3 MR. : Okay. And that is not 4 made by anyone at the MCC? That's made by the 5 Attorney General -- 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : -- is that -? Okay. 8 MR. : That's going to be - yeah. 9 That's - yes. 10 MR. : All right. Was there any 11 discussion of placing Epstein in one of those 12 units? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : Could he have been placed 15 in one of those units? 16 MR. : sure he could have. 17 MR. : But I mean, by executive 18 staff, or would they had to have made a call to 19 the -? 20 MR. : I believe they would have had 21 to make a special concessions for the inmate. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : They would have to, you know, 24 vet him, and someone would have to approve it, 25 I believe, outside of the executive staff at EFTA00126400 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MCC. 2 MR. : Okay. And then, that's 3 where I meant by, is, so the executive staff 4 wasn't able to -- 5 MR. : I don't believe so. 6 MR. : -- independently -? 7 MR. : No. We were not. 8 MR. : Okay. Were there many 9 inmates housed within Ten South at that time? 10 MR. : No. I believe, at that time, 11 we may have had a total of four to five. Of 12 course, you know, we had the notorious 13 up there. We also had the Apple Puff 14 (Phonetic Sp. *00:33:38) was up there. We also 15 had inmate - it starts with an S. I can't 16 remember his name. But basically, these are 17 inmates that have made crimes against the 18 United States, which it was deemed that those 19 inmates would be in that Special Management 20 Unit, and they couldn't, of course, go to the 21 general population. 22 MR. : Was this, like, a 23 terrorist type of people? 24 MR. : I would say some of them were 25 terrorists. You know, of course, you had EFTA00126401 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 that was up there, the terrorist 2 king pin, drug king pin. He couldn't go on a 3 general population unit. 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : He would go - normally, guys 6 like that would be in places where I come from, 7 before, you know, like Florence. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : He would be at the ADX 10 (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:19). Apopov (Phonetic Sp. 11 *00:34:21). I believe that - Apopov - I think 12 that was his name, Apopov or Sopopov (Phonetic 13 Sp. *00:34:25). These guys had made terrorist 14 threats against the United States, or there was 15 guys up there that had materials, or that was 16 found in cooperation with outside Agencies that 17 was trying to determent of (Indiscernible 18 *00:34:43), and cause harm to the United 19 States. These kind of guys was put in that 20 unit. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : Guys you wouldn't want in the 23 general population because -- 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : -- of their recruitment EFTA00126402 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 42 1 value, or their radical ability they could be 2 able to do - have recruitment value for, you 3 know, for other inmates in the general 4 population. You don't want those guys in 5 there. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : But Jeffrey Epstein, you 8 know, he's a multi-billionaire. 9 MR. : Sure. Now, as far as Ten 10 South. Is that one inmate per cell? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And video monitored at 13 all times? 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : Okay. So, it's like your 16 maximum security type? 17 MR. : That would be the highest 18 security that an inmate at MCC would be placed 19 in. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : Yeah. Could be placed in. 22 Yeah. 23 MR. : But the executive team 24 never discussed that? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00126403 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 MR. : Okay. advised 2 that Epstein preferred not to have a cell mate 3 and engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid 4 having one." What type of behavior did he -? 5 MR. : I believe that Epstein and - 6 when he first came in - he was doing self- 7 manipulative behavior. You know, he was 8 showing passive resistant activity, as far as, 9 you know, when they're taking meals, or 10 wouldn't listen to staff, as far as when 11 they're giving him direction. You know, he 12 would sit in his cell, and he wouldn't talk. 13 You know, I believe he wasn't taking meals at 14 one point. He was refusing to take showers. 15 Things of those that nature. 16 MR. : And the sentence 17 continues, including requesting to see a 18 Psychologist. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Is that part of it? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : Okay. Did he say why he 23 wanted to see a Psychologist? 24 MR. : I don't know. 25 MR. : No? EFTA00126404 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Remember that, no. 2 MR. : Sure. "At Epstein's 3 request, he was interviewed by a Psychologist." 4 Do you know who he made that request to? Would 5 it have been SHU staff? 6 MR. : He probably would have made 7 those requests to any of the staff that may 8 have been monitoring him at that time. Because 9 if he was placed on psychological observation 10 at that time, psychological observation, you 11 would have had to have a staff person that sat 12 there and monitored the inmate. Another inmate 13 couldn't have monitored him. 14 MR. : Okay. And that, is that, 15 like, 24/7? 16 MR. : That would have been 24 hours 17 of that. Seven days a week. 18 MR. : So, a staff member is 19 just -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- would just sit there 22 and watch him? 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : Communicate with him, or 25 no? EFTA00126405 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yeah, of course. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : I mean, and that's, you know, 4 encouraged. I mean, you know, and not have - 5 you want it to - even though the inmate is 6 placed in that situation, again, we're talking 7 about humanity here. 8 MR. : Mm-hmm. 9 MR. : You know, you want to gage 10 this guy's mental acuity. Meaning that, the 11 inmate, you want to know how he's feeling, how 12 he's doing. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : Is he improving? Or is he 15 declining? Because if he's declining, and you 16 can actually see it, you want to contact 17 somebody. You know, if this guy is in there 18 being very, you know, belligerent, he's being 19 passive aggressive, or active resistant, or 20 displaying signs of violence. You want to make 21 sure you notify someone. You're not just going 22 to sit there and allow this guy to do self-harm 23 to himself and/or a staff when they come to the 24 door, to provide his services. You know? Such 25 as taking him to shower; providing his meals; EFTA00126406 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 providing his medication or whatever it is. 2 So, you just don't want to just sit there and 3 allow this inmate just, you know, if he's going 4 to be detrimentally could be harm to staff, or 5 himself, you want to ensure that you notify 6 someone. 7 MR. : Okay. "So, following 8 this assessment, Epstein was initially placed 9 on suicide watch. He was later interviewed 10 again, and downgraded to psychological 11 observation." 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. : Now, just for the suicide 14 watch and psychological observation, where are 15 they located? 16 MR. : Those would be conducted 17 downstairs, on the second floor, in the Health 18 Services area. 19 MR. : And that's outside of the 20 SHU. Correct? 21 MR. : That is correct. 22 MR. : And that was prior to any 23 attempt on his life or anything like that? 24 MR. : That is correct. 25 MR. : Okay. Was that - ah, EFTA00126407 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 47 1 that's okay. "After some time, he was returned 2 to the SHU. began hearing talk that 3 Epstein was trying to get back on suicide 4 watch." 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : "Information like this is 7 usually generated from rounds, kites -", and 8 kites are notes, correct? 9 MR. : Correct. 10 MR. : And notes from inmates, 11 specifically. Correct? 12 MR. : It could be - yes - that 13 would be inmate correspondence. 14 MR. : Yeah. "And monitoring of 15 phone calls and letters." 16 MR. : Correct. 17 MR. : So, the hearing of tafl, 18 that's all based upon inmate talk? 19 MR. : That would have been - all 20 that staff. 21 MR. : Okay. Staff, as well? 22 MR. : You know, staffing sitting 23 there, and, you know, especially when he's on 24 suicide watch. You know, staff are taking 25 notes. So, it's every 15 minutes, you know, EFTA00126408 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 staff is - oh, III sorry - every 30 minutes, I 2 believe, I can't remember. It's been a while. 3 But, you know, a staff member - it's every 30 4 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the 5 inmate is doing inside of his cell. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : You know? So, you know, what 8 is he doing? The inmate is facing to the right. 9 The inmate is facing away from staff. The 10 inmate is, you know, doing what, or he makes 11 statements, those statements will be written in 12 the log. 13 MR. : Okay. It says, "On or 14 about July 23, 2019, Epstein was found 15 unresponsive, on the floor of his cell, with a 16 homemade piece of fabric on his chest." When 17 you say a "homemade piece of fabric," can you 18 explain that a little bit? 19 MR. : Okay. Basically, a homemade 20 piece of fabric. It could be anything. 21 Because it's out of the Special Housing, that's 22 what we're talking about. Right? 23 MR. : Yeah. I mean, III 24 talking about specifically in this instance. 25 Do you know what is meant by "found on the EFTA00126409 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 49 1 floor, with a homemade piece of fabric on his 2 chest"? 3 MR. : It could have been fragments 4 from a t-shirt. It could have been fragments 5 from sheets. It could have been fragment -- 6 MR. : So, like, pieces of cloth 7 8 MR. : -- cloth -- 9 MR. : -- that they could tie 10 together. 11 MR. : It was tied together, or -- 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : -- you know, (Indiscernible 14 *00:41:14), to make some type of homemade 15 fashioned -- 16 MR. : Did you see it at all, 17 though, yourself? 18 MR. : I can't remember. 19 MR. : Okay. Sure. "Epstein's 20 cell mate had flagged the attention of a staff 21 member, who handcuffed the cell mate, and 22 removed Epstein, to bring him to the Medical 23 Unit." Do you recall, at that time, who his 24 cell mate was? 25 MR. Tartaglione. EFTA00126410 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 MR. : Okay. Great. And did 2 you - all right. We talk about him in a little 3 bit. heard from his staff that Epstein 4 may have been faking unconsciousness." Do you 5 know who told you that? 6 MR. : Well, basically, in 7 memorandum, I remember when it was reported to 8 me, and I made my report, I believe it was in 9 the report of incident by Lieutenant 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. -: . And I 12 believe that she had put out an e-mail, which 13 concluded that the inmate was showing 14 manipulative behavior through his statements, 15 and what was observed by Medical staff. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, basically, they were 18 saying that the incident didn't occur as the 19 inmate may have tried to make it look or occur. 20 MR. : Okay. And we're going to 21 get into in a second. 22 MR. : So. 23 MR. : "Because he was not 24 observed opening his eyes and making other 25 suspicious movements not consistent with an EFTA00126411 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unconscious state." observed opening his suspicious movements unconscious state. assessed and became that his cell mate, A-R-T-A-G-L-I-O-I-E MR. MR. life." MR. MR. MR. believe a report of incident may have been done. Or sorry. "Because he was eyes and making other not consistent with an Epstein was medically coherent. Epstein claimed Nicholas Tartaglione -", T- : Mm-hmm. : -- tried to take his Was that investigated? : I believe - no, I mean : Sure. -- I can't remember, but I MR. : Okay. MR. : And primarily, when a report of incident is generated - so, any time that an incident happens in the institution, III going to walk you through this. The Lieutenant that's on shift is supposed to do the initial fact finding. The gathering of evidence. Okay? MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. : And all of these things. And EFTA00126412 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 52 1 then, they write a brief synopsis, and then, 2 it's put in a packet, and then, ultimately, SIS 3 Department will investigate it, especially if 4 we're having an assault, which would have been 5 a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of 6 another. So, pictures would have been taken. 7 Clinical assessments of both inmates would have 8 been taken. Witness statements would have been 9 taken. All of these things would have been 10 done, and it goes into an investigative packet. 11 MR. : Sure. So, 12 - Lieutenant - would have -? 13 MR. : Would have been -- 14 MR. : Created it and provided 15 it to SIS? 16 MR. : -- and would have created it, 17 and for it to move on. 18 MR. : And do you know if there 19 was any credibility found to the claim that 20 Epstein made, that this other - his cellmate - 21 had tried to take his life? 22 MR. : I don't believe there was any 23 credibility that was ever concluded -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- that that incident EFTA00126413 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 happened. 2 MR. : And do you know anything 3 about when he was initially found, if the 4 homemade rope or whatever it was, was found 5 around his neck, or it says in this, "On his 6 chest," anything with that, with, you know, do 7 you know what I mean? Like, if someone was 8 trying to hang themself, if it came on their 9 chest, do you know anything about how that may 10 have happened? 11 MR. : I mean, forensically, I 12 wouldn't know. III not a -- 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : -- an investigator on that 15 level. So, I can't really tell you the 16 position of any type of homemade fashioned item 17 that would be used to facilitate a suicide 18 attempt, or 19 MR. : Sure. 20 MR. : -- an assault attempt. 21 That's not my level. 22 MR. : Sure. 23 MR. : Again, III trying to remember 24 what it was, or what was used, but again 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126414 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 54 1 MR. -- I don't know exactly. So, 2 I can't really determine or give you that type 3 of, you know, I don't have expertise 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. in that area. So -. 6 MR. : But the information that 7 was provided to you suggested that he tried to 8 take his own life, not that the cell mate tried 9 to take is life? 10 MR. : Correct. That it was 11 inconclusive that the inmate had - inmate 12 Tartaglione - had tried to kill this guy. Or 13 tried to do any self-harm to this guy. So, you 14 have to - so, like, you have to take an 15 advantage because it's one inmates' word 16 against another. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : So, when the investigation 19 comes down, of course, inmate Epstein would 20 have been interviewed; inmate Tartaglione would 21 have been interviewed, at which time, you would 22 have took those statements, you would have 23 waived, and then you would have took into 24 consideration any witness statements, or 25 anything that was observed during the clinical EFTA00126415 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 assessment. So, that's why Health Services 2 helps us out, because the inmates don't want 3 understand that everything they're doing, or 4 anything they're saying, is being entered on 5 that clinical assessment. 6 MR. : Sure. 7 MR. : So, that's where they were 8 saying that he wasn't - his actions may not 9 have been what they should have been for a 10 person that was quasi supposed to had been 11 assaulted. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : Or if he was supposed to have 14 been unconscious, you was displaying this type 15 of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn't 16 there. So, I don't know what occurred. 17 just going by what was - the information tr.F_ -- 18 was relayed back to me. 19 MR. : Absolutely. So, as far 20 as Tartaglione -- 21 MR. : Correct. 22 MR. : -- what was he in for? 23 MR. : I believe that Tartaglione 24 was responsible for - he was a former Police 25 Officer, I believe - and I believe he had EFTA00126416 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 killed four people, and then he buried them, 2 buried the victims somewhere up near Otisville 3 Prison. I think that's what it was. Back in 4 the day. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Yeah. Something like that. 7 MR. : So, he was actually in 8 for murder, though? 9 MR. : Yeah. It was murder. He was 10 in for murder and whatever other stuff he was 11 doing. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Doing in his capacity as a 14 Police Officer. 15 MR. : And who selected him and 16 why? To be Epstein's -- 17 MR. : Who selected him? 18 MR. : -- who selected him to be 19 Epstein's roommate, and why? 20 MR. : I don't remember who vetted 21 Tartaglione. But what I will tell you is that, 22 even though Tartaglione had a murder on his 23 jacket, Tartaglione also was an inmate that had 24 issues being in general population. You 25 understand what III saying? EFTA00126417 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 MR. Mm-hmm. Former Police 2 Officer? 3 MR. : Former Police Officer. He 4 had issues - because I've dealt with 5 Tartaglione at Brooklyn - so, he was up on one 6 of the Units in Brooklyn, and he had issues 7 with those inmates in those blocks, where 8 they're made for people who are sex offenders. 9 For inmates that have issues with - when they 10 go to population - general, they can't cope. 11 Formal law enforcement. These type of guys are 12 in that unit. So, you don't really have that 13 much issues in those type of units because 14 these guys are going to do their time, or await 15 their sentencing, and then move on. So, you 16 don't really have a lot of violence. But this 17 guy was always, always in the mix of something. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : But we couldn't put him on 20 the general population unit, and you just can't 21 throw him in SHU. You know what III saying? 22 Just because. You just can't. So, in 23 Brooklyn, we had the ability to put him in - 24 think it was in K82. I can't remember. When 25 he goes to MCC, you know, they don't have those EFTA00126418 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 type of units. You know? So, he would have to 2 go in general population, or he would go to 3 SHU. So, if the inmate fails the program and 4 said III not going to population, you can't 5 force me. So, when you do his assessment, his 6 Unit Team does the assessment, Psychology does 7 their assessment, Health Services does that 8 assessment, and say, well, hey, this guy is 9 clear to go to GP. There's nothing precluded 10 him to go. But the inmate said, well, you 11 know, Ill a 306. 306 is refusal of programs. 12 III not going. So, put me in SHU. So, that's 13 how he ended up in SHU. 14 MR. : Sure. So, he was in SHU 15 already? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And do you believe he was 18 a good placement for Epstein? 19 MR. : Well, at the time, again, you 20 would have to be mindful, we don't - how could 21 I put this? - inmates are not placed in cells 22 based on race, or - but however - or gang 23 affiliations, all of these things that, you 24 know, but however, you vet inmates. So, you 25 say, okay, well, you have guys up there that EFTA00126419 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 at MCC - that were facing murder charges. 2 There's a lot of them. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : Hey, I mean, if they're in 5 SHU, that means they can't cope on the outside. 6 They can't cope in the general population unit. 7 So, we would look at him just like another 8 inmate. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : He never hurt another inmate. 11 MR. : And that was going to be 12 my next question. So, he wasn't known to 13 assault anyone? 14 MR. Bro, he never assaulted 15 another inmate. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Yeah, he got a murder beef, 18 okay, that's fine. But guess what? He never 19 hurt any other inmates while incarcerated. 20 MR. : Sure. So, taking, 21 though, that he was incarcerated due to murder, 22 though, and that Epstein claimed that he tried 23 to murder him, do you think that - do you 24 believe that there was any credibility to that 25 claim? EFTA00126420 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 60 1 MR. : Again, what I will say is, is 2 that I will tell you, like you said, my 3 statements before, that it was brought to my 4 attention that inmate Epstein was doing 5 manipulative behavior, kind of testing the 6 water to see what he could get away with. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : Being his initial 9 incarceration. Probably not too familiar with 10 being in jail, but however, he's a smart guy. 11 He kind of figured out what he could do, in 12 order for him, one) not to go to GP; two) try 13 to get in SHU and try to get a cell by himself. 14 That's kind of where he wanted it to go. 15 MR. : So then, he wanted to be 16 in SHU by himself -- 17 MR. : Of course. 18 MR. : -- and that may have been 19 why he -- 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : -- said that -? Okay. 22 So, you believe that he made the claim against 23 Tartaglione because he wanted a cell by 24 himself. 25 MR. : That's in my belief, after EFTA00126421 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 61 1 looking at everything, and everything that was 2 done, I believe so. I think that would be 3 accurate. 4 MR. : Okay. It says, "He was 5 placed back on suicide watch for approximately 6 one week." So, that happened the 23rd, and it 7 brought him up to about July 30th. Is that 8 correct? 9 MR. Mm-hmm. Correct. 10 MR. : Of 2019. "Unlike his 11 first and previous placement on suicide watch, 12 Epstein now has definitive suicidal tendencies 13 reported in his incarceration history. The 14 staff was tasked with determining whether 15 Epstein was in fact suicidal, or using 16 manipulative tactics to avoid assignment of a 17 cell mate. After suicide watch, Epstein was 18 placed on psychological observation, and 19 eventually returned to the SHU." Now, again, 20 and just to go back, this Ten South thing, that 21 didn't never - were Lieutenants bringing it to 22 you? Like, hey, he should be on Ten South? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : You don't recall any 25 Lieutenants saying that? EFTA00126422 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That wouldn't be a 2 Lieutenant's purview. 3 MR. : Sure. 4 MR. : A Lieutenant, most of the 5 people - and then, I will tell you, I didn't 6 understand SAMS placement until I became a 7 Deputy Captain. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : All right? And I understood 10 that, you know, these guys, you just can't put 11 a guy as a SAMS. That identifier, that's an 12 identifier that has to come from Central 13 Office. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : BOP Central Office. 16 MR. : So, if a Lieutenant 17 if we're talking Lieutenants, and they're 18 saying, he should have been in Ten South -- 19 MR. : Well -- 20 MR. : -- but they don't know 21 what they're talking about, basically? 22 MR. : No. Because that identifier 23 - because I believe you know this - it's an 24 identifier. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126423 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 63 1 MR. : That's put on an inmate just 2 like - I will give you an example - sentencing 3 designations. Okay? 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : That's their job. 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : They're going to do, say, 8 what Security level inmates, what type of 9 prisons they go to, if they're a transgender, 10 you know, all of these different things, all 11 that stuff is going to come from that Central 12 Office, to say, okay, we looked at this 13 particular inmate's history, or PSI, and we 14 feel that this identifier needs to be placed on 15 this inmate. So, a SAMS identification, or 16 moniker, put on an inmate, executive staff 17 can't put that on there. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : That's going to come from 20 Central Office. 21 MR. : Okay. So, although a 22 Lieutenants may have thought -. 23 MR. : They may have - yeah - they 24 may have thought and said, yeah, due to, yeah, 25 his situation, of him being a multi- EFTA00126424 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 64 1 billionaire, or whatever, or due to his issues 2 of his proclivity to sexual deviances, and all 3 of these things, he wouldn't be a good 4 candidate to go to GP. But guess what? That 5 responsibility, that identifier, that moniker 6 should have been put on Epstein before he even 7 came to MCC. 8 MR. : Sure. So, do you know if 9 this is something - obviously, it sounds like 10 it would have been out of your hands - would 11 that be something that the Warden would discuss 12 with, what? The Regional Director? 13 MR. : That's right. The Warden 14 would have had that discussion between SIA, the 15 Regional staff, and also, it goes to the 16 Region, the Central Office staff over 17 Correctional Programing. 18 MR. : Okay. And you were never 19 20 MR. : And designations. 21 MR. : -- involved with any of 22 that? 23 MR. : I would never be in any of 24 those conversations. 25 MR. : Okay. Fair enough. So, EFTA00126425 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 65 1 who would be the two to - I guess the Warden 2 would be the right person to go back to and 3 just say, hey, did this ever come up in 4 conversation? 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : Okay. Okay. It says, 7 "At the direction of the Warden, 8 initiated the process of compiling possible 9 cell mates for Epstein, vetting them and 10 submitting candidates to the Warden for his 11 review. and his staff fully screened 12 potential cell mates, and reported their 13 determinations up to the Warden. Efrain Reyes 14 -", E-F-R-A-I-I, R-E-Y-E-S, "- was selected and 15 housed in a cell with Epstein." 16 MR. : That's right. 17 MR. : And it says, "The 18 Assistant Warden," but III assuming they mean 19 the Associate Warden, "Warden and Regional 20 Director were notified." 21 MR. : Okay. This is how that went 22 down. Mr. sat with me - not with the 23 AW present - and we wanted to - we started 24 talking about security protocols, moving 25 forward for Jeffrey Epstein. That's with me EFTA00126426 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and Mr. , we had this discussion. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Because like I said earlier 4 in my statement, even though the AW would have 5 been my next in succession, as far as my 6 Supervisor, however, I did have conversations 7 directly with the Warden, as far as for 8 security situations (Indiscernible *00:57:32) 9 in the institution. 10 MR. : Sure. 11 MR. : So, we sat there, and he 12 wanted me to compile names, and vet inmates 13 that would be possible good candidates as 14 cell mate for Epstein moving forward. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : So, I brought a compiled, I 17 believe I had ten names, and he and I went 18 through those names, we brought it down to 19 three. Then those three names, Mr. 20 because I sat there - when he called the 21 Regional Director, on the phone, and he and the 22 Regional Director vetted those three names. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. : And then, I sat there, and I 25 was privy to that conversation. I sat there, EFTA00126427 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 67 1 and he gave them, and he faxed him the whole 2 makeup of all three of them, and the Regional 3 Director said, no, I want this guy. 4 MR. : So, the Regional Director 5 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : -- ultimately made the 8 decision? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : So, give me a little 11 background on Reyes. What was he in for? 12 MR. : I believe Reyes was a 13 Hispanic, older male. I believe that 14 particular inmate was in for - I think he was 15 in for child - some type of sexual stuff. I 16 can't remember. 17 MR. : Some kind of a charge 18 with -- 19 MR. : Charge, dealing with -- 20 MR. : -- sexual -- 21 MR. : -- with, you know, those type 22 of charges, sexual -- 23 MR. : So, a similar type of -- 24 MR. similar type of charges 25 MR. : -- charge. EFTA00126428 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. I can't remember. MR. was being vetted - was he close to, like, a release date or anything like that? An anticipated release date? -- as Epstein, I believe, or MR. : Okay. Was he - when he No one knew that. Because this is what you need to understand about MCC. MCC and MDC are basically jails. They're not prisons. MR. : Sure. MR. : It's a jail. So, that means if a guy goes to court, you know, you get locked up, and then, the next day, you might go to court, the Judge might say, no, releasing you. We don't know. MR. : Sure. MR. : The only time we'll know is when the inmates come back from court, where is this guy at? He was released. MR. : Gotcha. MR. : Okay. Now, we got this guy still in our count. So, if they don't bring a transfer order, our count is bad. So, they're going to bring the transfer order back with • EFTA00126429 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 69 1 them for court line. These guys got released. 2 So, normally, court line is over before 4:00. 3 So, we try to get these guys up. Do some 4 inmates come back after 4:00? Yes, they do. 5 But however, we don't know if an inmate goes 6 out to court, if they're coming back. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : However, there is times when 9 they put out a roster, and it's given to - as 10 far as all Correctional Officers that work the 11 units, and it will say, court line, inmate 12 Reyes - using him as an example - WAB. That 13 means that he has to come downstairs with all 14 belongings. So, if they say it, that means 15 he's not coming back. That's either he's 16 transferring to another BOP facility, or he's 17 going to be released to the street. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : But I can guarantee you that 20 that transfer or that roster, that inmate Reyes 21 was on that day, it didn't say WAB. Because it 22 would have said WAB, the first thing that that 23 OIC should have said, that's my orange tag guy. 24 Because I made them do all the orange tag guys, 25 and I made them put them up on the board. EFTA00126430 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 70 1 Epstein is that orange tag guy. He's supposed 2 to have a cellie. WAB. Oh. Cap. SHU 3 Lieutenant wasn't there. But he would have 4 called me directly. God. Hey, so and so don't 5 have a cell. 6 MR. : Yeah. So, how long did 7 it take to vet? You know, I know you said you 8 started it with ten, and then it brought down 9 to three, and then the Regional Director 10 ultimately decided the one. But how long does 11 that process take? 12 MR. : I believe it took - III 13 thinking we did it for - we did a day. It took 14 a day. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : I mean, we actually went - 17 and, you know, I don't know - I know either the 18 Warden and I was having a lengthy 19 conversations, because the Warden wanted to 20 ensure - Warden philosophy when 21 dealing with Mr. Epstein was this: he's another 22 inmate. 23 MR. : Mm-hmm. 24 MR. : And what he tried to try to 25 get across to exec staff, and what he tried to EFTA00126431 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 71 1 get across to us, as me, as the Captain, to 2 when I disseminated down to the subordinate 3 staff, this is another inmate. Who cares about 4 what his charges are? 5 MR. : Sure. 6 MR. : Or since he's sensationalized 7 in the media. Nobody cares. 8 MR. : Of course. 9 MR. : We're going to manage him 10 appropriately. Because if you know anything 11 about jails, and the BOP, especially Brooklyn 12 and MCC, we don't run those jails. The court 13 runs those jails. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : So, and that's the truth, the 16 court, the Judges, whatever the Judge says 17 goes. So, and that's unfortunate, but that's 18 neither here nor there. So, Mr. wanted 19 the staff to say no, this is the inmate, yeah, 20 he has certain charges, but we're going to make 21 sure he gets everything that all the inmates 22 get when they come to MCC. The inmates are 23 going to get proper care. The inmate is going 24 to get showers. The inmate is going to be fed. 25 Whatever it may be. But however, after those EFTA00126432 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 72 1 situations with Epstein where it showed that 2 his behavior was manipulative, when it shows 3 that he was trying to get things for 4 unnecessary gain. Or he would do anything to 5 get anything that would benefit him, we had to 6 take some different protocols. We had to take 7 a different - they had to take a different -- 8 MR. : Approach. 9 MR. : mindset with this guy, or 10 the way we managed him had to change. Because 11 we already had this guy saying that he was 12 going to be killed, and all of this stuff, or 13 whatever. So, we just wanted to make sure, 14 moving forward, we put protocols in place that 15 will protect us, as an Agency. 16 MR. : So, speaking of 17 protocols, was it discussed, then, when you 18 were vetting these, hey, we have inmates 19 constantly moving out of here, if Reyes is 20 moved, one of these other two that were down to 21 the three would be moved in with him? Was that 22 discussed? 23 MR. : No. He would just basically 24 - because like I said, again, at MCC, you 25 wouldn't know how long the duration on the EFTA00126433 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates stay. 2 MR. : Sure. 3 MR. : You wouldn't know. 4 MR. : So, you just have to 5 start the vetting process -- 6 MR. : Press it -- 7 MR. : -- over again? 8 MR. : -- all over again. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Whoever is available in the 11 unit, that may be single-celled, because as you 12 know, our policy and protocols in the Bureau of 13 Prisons are dealing with restricted inmates, 14 and Special Housing Units, they cannot be 15 celled alone. 16 MR. : And -- 17 MR. : They must have a cell mate. 18 MR. : -- in the Special Housing 19 Unit, everyone must have a cell mate? 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Oh, I didn't know that. 22 So, every single one needs to have a cell mate? 23 MR. : Except - except, because it's 24 one of the areas that we didn't discuss, 25 outside of Ten South - there was a range that EFTA00126434 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 74 1 was meant for - it was, like, a stepdown from 2 Ten South, that only had one man cell 3 occupancy, which was on G-range. 4 MR. : Okay. Was that part of 5 the Special Housing Unit? 6 MR. : Mm-hmm. 7 MR. : So, there is a part of 8 the Special Housing Unit that is a one-man 9 occupancy, and -- 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : -- another part that has 12 two-man occupancy? 13 MR. : That is correct. 14 MR. : Okay. And Epstein was 15 housed in the two-man occupancy? 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : Was it ever discussed to 18 put him in one of the one-man occupancies? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : No? 21 MR. : Because all of those cells 22 were filled with inmates that were vetted, that 23 needed that type of supervision. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : You had inmates in there EFTA00126435 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that, if they was put with another inmate, inside of the Special Housing Unit, they would die. MR. : And was part of that -- MR. : They would be assaulted. So, we would have to make those considerations. So, the protocols of how we dealt with inmates, according to their situation -- MR. : Mm-hmm. MR. -- I believe it was sound. But guess what? You can only - you're like the coach - I can make the game plan, but if the players are not executing the game plan, whose fault is that? Is it the coach? Or the player? MR. : And exactly, and that's what we're doing here, we're Monday morning quarterbacking. We're just saying, like, all right, this is - and that's why we're going back through it. So, "The Warden directed on multiple occasions that Epstein needed a cell mate at all times, and verbally informed repeatedly Lieutenant his Lieutenants the same. directed his SHU Lieutenant that Epstein needed a cell mate at all times. Additionally, EFTA00126436 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 76 1 visited the SHU on multiple occasions, and 2 directed staff to be very alert and attentive 3 about Epstein's special accommodations." So, 4 when you say that about the SHU staff, did you 5 also inform the SHU staff that Epstein needed 6 to have a cell mate? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : Oh, so, they all were 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : -- were aware? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Can you look at the - so, 13 the SHU staff for both of August 9th and the 14 very early morning hours of August 10th - can 15 you just list the people and let me know if you 16 informed those people? 17 MR. : So, basically, my hours of 18 work were normally from - let's just say 7:30 19 to 4:00. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : So, I ensured that it wasn't 22 within one week, but it was a process of doing 23 rounds. So, I try to hit every shift. 24 MR. : Sure. 25 MR. : So, I hit the day watch EFTA00126437 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 77 1 because that's the one I work. Evening watch, 2 I stay over late. I walk up there. Hey guys, 3 this is the situation. Let's make sure that, 4 you know, we're paying attention. And then, 5 morning watch, of course. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So -. 8 MR. : So, beginning at 8:00 9 III., then, on August 9th, can you just look to 10 who - and name the people - can you just name 11 who was in the SHU, and if you've ever had a 12 conversation with them, if they were aware. 13 MR. : Okay. Let me see here. 14 Well, we had . I've talked to 15 (Phonetic Sp. *01:08:06). He was 16 in there. was one of the guys 17 that was up there as a Rec Officer. 18 MR. : So, all -- 19 MR. : Him. 20 MR. : -- all of those people 21 were, you had conversations -- 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : -- specifically with 24 them, and they know? 25 MR. : I've talked with these guys. EFTA00126438 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 78 1 MR. : Absolutely. Can you just 2 name the other people for the shifts after him? 3 I think they just -. 4 MR. : You got - now, I. . I 5 , what you need to understand is, that he 6 would have been - because, you know, like I 7 said - overtime. Non-custody. He's non- 8 custody staff. I don't have conversations with 9 him. 10 MR. : Okay. So, 11 12 MR. : So, that mean -- 13 MR. : -- may not have known? 14 MR. right, because 15 realistically, the morning watch and evening 16 watch shift, people don't like to come to work. 17 MR. : Sure. 18 MR. : So, they - if you sign up for 19 overtime, you say, oh, SHU two is open. Okay. 20 I'll take it. But you're non-custody. So, 21 that means anybody can work it. A teacher. 22 Food Service foreman. 23 MR. : Is the SHU easier to work 24 than the other units? 25 MR. : I wouldn't say it's easier, EFTA00126439 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 but it's less labor intensive. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Because, in my opinion, from 4 when I worked Special Housing, Special Housing 5 was always hard work because III going to tell 6 you why. You have to be vigilant. And when I 7 mean vigilant, you have to understand, when 8 you're working that Unit, anything can happen. 9 It could be quiet. But guess what? If you're 10 not walking, looking in those cells, testing 11 the Security protocols. Meaning, making sure 12 the flaps are closed. Making sure the doors 13 are locked. You want to know that, in SHU, 14 sometimes doors was unlocked. 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : Or flaps opened. To chase 17 doors, those -- 18 MR. : What is a flap? 19 MR. the Food Service flap. 20 MR. : Okay. Sure. 21 MR. : You know? Making rounds. 22 Making sure the inmates are not - have 23 coverings up when you open up the - what do you 24 call it? 25 MR. : The window? EFTA00126440 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : The windows or putting a 2 towel over their beds, and blocking the light 3 from you being able to observe them. 4 MR. : But then, how 5 MR. : And what I said about 6 MR. : but how -. 7 MR. : -- but I want to go back 8 because I know about the statement, about the 9 doors being left open. III talking about more 10 in general population, as far as when you're 11 making rounds, those type of things, you test. 12 Making sure the door is secure. Making sure 13 the food slots are secure. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : As an Officer coming up, even 16 as a Lieutenant, do you know that I've actually 17 walked in a Unit and pulled on the door that's 18 supposed to be secure, and its inmate is wide 19 open? 20 MR. : Wow. Ever at the MCC? 21 MR. : No. Because that wasn't my 22 capacity. 23 MR. : Sure. 24 MR. : That wasn't my job. But as a 25 Line Officer subordinate, and also when I was a EFTA00126441 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 81 1 Lieutenant making rounds, that's what I would 2 do. When I hit a unit, it wasn't just to talk 3 to staff. I would walk in and look at the 4 Security protocols in the Unit. Is their fire 5 extinguisher there? Good. Your phone work? 6 Computers work? Hey, let's walk the block 7 Pulling on doors. Pulling on food slots. 8 Showing - trying to train the Officers. 9 MR. : Sure. 10 MR. : That's what I used to do. 11 MR. : Lead by example. 12 MR. : And guess what happens? You 13 would find stuff, because people in hurry 14 enough to go home on that evening watch, them 15 inmates know their doors are locked. But they 16 know they're not going to come out. Because if 17 they come out, there's a situation. But 18 they'll sit up there and leave it open. 19 MR. : So, back to this, though. 20 Can you look at the other SHU on, you know, the 21 subsequent shifts, if you had conversations 22 with them? 23 MR. : So -- 24 MR. : So, , no. 25 MR. : -- so, , because he EFTA00126442 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 82 1 would have just been on there. Mr. 2 Yeah. I've talked to Mr. because 3 Mr. would go between evening watch, 4 because I would talk to him. would work 5 evening watch, so I've talked to him on evening 6 watch. He was working morning watch because 7 these guys, it was such short of staff, that 8 these SHU guys was working back to back shifts. 9 Or staff. It didn't matter. People who wanted 10 money, or wanted to, you know, they would sign 11 up for overtime. So, was one 12 of the regular SHU staff on the evening watch. 13 Yeah, so, I talked to him. 14 I talked with him. 15 would go between the three, and also 16 the OIC, because he had the most knowledge out 17 of those guys. So, sometimes, he - even though 18 he was the three - he was the one with OIC 19 duties. 20 MR. : And OIC stands for 21 Officer-in-Charge? 22 MR. : Officer-in-Charge. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, he was doing all the 25 rosters. When it was time to move inmates EFTA00126443 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 83 1 inside of the Unit, you know, he was in charge 2 of ensuring those Sentry rosters was updated, 3 to ensure that the accountability of the unit 4 was correct, to make sure that the inmates were 5 placed in their proper cells. Who was this? 6 III sorry. Hold on. 7 MR. : And so, in the SHU, we 8 want to be focusing on? 9 MR. _: was one of 10 the -- 11 MR. : And that's 12 MR. : -- now, I know 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Now, , I can't remember 15 if I spoke to - exactly. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : But I know that I had hit all 18 three shifts. Meaning that, day watch. I was 19 always up there on day watch. Evening watch. 20 I stayed over because that's what the Warden 21 wanted. He told me. Hey, make sure you go and 22 hit all three shifts. The Warden told me to do 23 it . So, if the Warden told me to do it, why 24 wouldn't I go do it? 25 MR. : Sure. EFTA00126444 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : The Warden -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- we sat down, he said, 4 these are the things that I want to happen. 5 First, I want you to make sure, walk through, 6 talk about, make sure the staff is aware, 7 (Indiscernible *01:13:53) are doing this, this, 8 and this. And also, I know that you have - 9 that I put out an e-mail. So, I just didn't 10 tell them - what do you call that? - by -- 11 MR. : So, you sent an e-mail to 12 all the SHU? 13 MR. : Yes, I did. To all 14 Correctional Services staff. And I think 15 still got it. 16 MR. : To all Correctional? 17 MR. : Yeah. I still got -- 18 MR. : Did you ever provide -- 19 MR. : -- that e-mail. 20 MR. : -- that to anyone? 21 MR. : Huh? 22 MR. : Did you ever provide that 23 to anyone? 24 MR. : No. And they never asked for 25 it. EFTA00126445 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Can you absolutely 2 provide that to us? 3 MR. : Yeah. I think I have one, 4 and we can go to my office, so I can show you. 5 I don't want you to think I - I will bring it 6 up for you. 7 MR. : So, would have this 8 and been on that e- 9 mail? 10 MR. -: would have been, because 11 he's a Correctional Officer. But not 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : You understand? 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : But however, what we did was 16 17 MR. : I thought everyone was 18 considered a Correctional Officer. That's not 19 the case? 20 MR. : As far as when emergencies 21 happen. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : When emergencies happen, 24 regardless of what your discipline is, we all 25 come together, it means you going to - EFTA00126446 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 86 1 everyone, when you came in the BOP, everyone 2 was given the opportunity, that when you went 3 through Correctional - those tactics that you 4 learned in Glynco, it was about being a 5 Correctional Officer. It wasn't about being a 6 Dentist, or being a Chaplin, or whatever. It's 7 about Correctional principals. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Introduction to Correctional 10 principals. 11 MR. : But as far as there is an 12 e-mail that just the people that are working in 13 the Correctional Officer 14 MR. : Yes. 15 MR. : -- okay. 16 MR. : And I can show that to you. 17 MR. : Perfect. 18 MR. : I have that. 19 MR. : Awesome. 20 MR. : Because it wasn't just me 21 just talking to them. I put out guidance, and 22 I kept putting out guidance. It wasn't like it 23 was one time. I talked about inmates being 24 placed on suicide watch. I talked about 25 inmates putting on there - what is the EFTA00126447 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 87 1 difference between close supervision - what is 2 it? - suicide watch. 3 MR. : Psychological 4 observation. 5 MR. : And psychological. There's 6 no such thing as psychological - and that you 7 know now - there's no such thing. It's called 8 close supervision. There's no such as 9 psychological. That was an MCC thing. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : That they made up. So, it's 12 a close supervision and/or suicide watch. 13 MR. : So, you have at least one 14 e-mail, though, that you sent to Correctional 15 Officers saying that Epstein needed a cell 16 mate? 17 MR. : It wasn't saying Epstein, but 18 I do have two. I think I gave one e-mail and 19 one memorandum that I wrote for the 583 packet 20 for Epstein. I think you may have that. I 21 don't know if you have it. And then, I have 22 wrote another one about the important of doing 23 30-minute rounds in the Special Housing Unit. 24 MR. : Okay. Yeah, if you can 25 after we're done - either you can send it to EFTA00126448 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 me, or you can give it to me. 2 MR. : I can give it to you. III 3 going to give you a copy. 4 MR. : Perfect. 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : All right. Then just -- 7 MR. : And so -- 8 MR. : I think there's a few 9 more. Like, I don't know how to spell his 10 name, pronounce his name, but 11 MR. : So -- 12 MR. 13 MR. : -- so, 14 MR. -: 15 MR. : Again, that was another non- 16 custody guy. So, , I believe worked in 17 - he was a Material Handler. I think 18 was a Material Handler. So, he's not 19 Correctional Services anymore. However, did 20 they have a background - no, III sorry. 21 went to R and D. So, he was Receiving 22 and Discharge. So, these staff members worked 23 as Correctional Officers, came up as 24 Correctional Officers. But their daily 25 assignment, their job descriptions changed. EFTA00126449 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Mm-hmm. 2 MR. : Their whatever, their non- 3 custody. 4 MR. : So, the people that 5 worked in the SHU, and the Correctional 6 Officers, they were aware of it, but people 7 that had different functions in the facility, 8 they may not have been? 9 MR. : May not have been because I 10 wouldn't talk to them on a daily basis. 11 MR. : And what about, do you 12 know if there were any kind of, like, post-it 13 notes, or sticky notes, or any -? 14 MR. : Yes. I had created - it was 15 one, one, because I said orange card inmates - 16 I said, make sure these particular inmates, 17 inmates high visibility inmates, and I think 18 talked about that, that the inmates, their 19 cards should be orange. And those would be our 20 high visibility inmates that you - and I think 21 I got an e-mail about that, too - about the 22 high visibility inmates inside the unit, you 23 should take special care to ensure these 24 inmates are -- 25 MR. : Observed. EFTA00126450 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 90 1 MR. -- observed. When you're 2 doing your rounds. 3 MR. : Anything, though, about 4 the actual cell mate requirement, though? Do 5 you know if there was any kind of, like, sticky 6 note, or any kind of post-it about saying, hey, 7 make sure that Epstein -? 8 MR. : I can't remember. 9 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 10 MR. : But like I said, I was 11 putting out a lot of guidance -- 12 MR. : Absolutely. 13 MR. you know, coming from - 14 and, you know - coming from the Warden, and 15 things that I would have thought that was 16 beneficial to the Correctional Officers. I was 17 just putting that guidance out. I kept putting 18 out. You know, like I said, you know, III 19 talking to them, III putting out the guidance, 20 but if they don't open their e-mail and don't 21 read it. 22 MR. : What about some of the 23 people who were Acting Lieutenants? Somebody 24 like an SOS 25 MR. : Ms. EFTA00126451 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 91 1 MR. . Sorry. So, Ms. 2 . Ms. , she would work 3 Correctional post. 4 MR. : So, should have he known 5 that -- 6 MR. : She would have known. 7 MR. : -- should have she known 8 that Epstein had -? 9 MR. : It's common knowledge that 10 you're supposed to do 30-minute rounds. 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : And be vigilant. But 13 however, would she know, necessarily, that 14 those protocols were placed on Jeffrey Epstein, 15 that he was supposed to have a cellie? I mean, 16 you see an orange card, if you see the 17 guidance. I believe I had put something 18 together, that was on the OIC's desk, on the 19 desk, talked about the high visibility inmates, 20 and Jeffrey Epstein was a high visibility 21 inmate. 22 MR. : But is it understood that 23 a high visibility inmate like that needs a cell 24 mate? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00126452 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 92 1 MR. : Okay. So, you're saying, 2 make sure you're doing rounds, but it's also 3 understood, if it's a high-visibility inmate, 4 they need a cell mate at all times? 5 6 MR. : Yes. MR. : Okay. And did they all 7 understand that? 8 MR. : Yes. 9 MR. : All right. And to 10 include and -- 11 MR. : I don't know. 12 MR. • 13 MR. : Because they are not custody. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : And I don't believe I had 16 that conversation with them. III not going to 17 lie. I didn't have that conversation with 18 them. 19 MR. : What about some of these 20 Lieutenants, like the Acting Lieutenants, like 21 22 MR. : Ms. ? Oh, Ms. 23 was in Correctional Services. And she - I 24 believe - during that time, was working an 25 Attorney conference. EFTA00126453 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : She was in Correctional 3 Service. She was working an Attorney 4 conference during that time. So, Ms. 5 actually promoted her to Acting Lieutenant. 6 She was getting paid as a Lieutenant. So, yes. 7 She would have known. 8 MR. : So, she should have - 9 would have, or should have? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : How about some of these 12 other ones that we're on? You said 13 obviously, you already said you 14 MR. : Yeah. 15 MR. : -- specifically directed 16 him. 17 MR. : If he - yeah - I brought him 18 in the office, and we spoke. Yes. 19 MR. : Do you know how - and I 20 think you said that you spoke to him on 21 multiple occasions 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : -- is that correct, and 24 made sure, hey, make sure he has a cell mate? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00126454 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. What about 2 3 MR. • . I had 4 conversations - well, I don't believe I had a 5 conversation with her. 6 MR. : Should have she known, 7 based upon the orange card? 8 MR. : Yes. She would have known 9 because I put the guidance out through the e- 10 mail. 11 MR. : Now, the guidance, 12 though, said about - you said it talked about 13 rounds as opposed to actual cell mate 14 requirement, though, correct? 15 MR. : I can't remember. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : You know, I don't know, 18 because like I said, again, I put out a lot of 19 guidance. 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : But I know the people who I 22 actually spoke to as far as, like, hey, you the 23 OIC, I mean, you're the Lieutenant of SHU, that 24 means you working day watch, that means any 25 movement happens on day watch, it don't happen EFTA00126455 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 95 1 on morning watch. Inmates are locked in their 2 cells. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : So, anything, day watch, 5 evening watch, that SHU Lieutenant should be 6 aware. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, that's why 9 MR. : And we'll get in 10 MR. : So, that's why we would have 11 that conversation. When he and I had that 12 conversation. 13 MR. : And do you remember - so, 14 you recall specifically talking with him - do 15 you - and this is, I want to know about - aside 16 from what they should have known - specific 17 conversations with 18 MR. _: . I can't 19 remember about . I believe it's as 20 internal. I came into the Lieutenant's Office 21 and we spoke about it. So, as a collective, 22 the Lieutenants were made aware. I can't say I 23 remember that I would come into the 24 Lieutenants, and we would talk about Epstein. 25 So, again, between the guidance that was put EFTA00126456 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 96 1 out through emails, and the conversations that 2 I would have just encountering Lieutenants, 3 yes, but however, I can tell you for sure, I 4 had a conversation with 5 MR. : And would have made 6 sure that those people working in the SHU knew 7 this information? 8 MR. : He would have - as the 9 Lieutenant-in-Charge, yes. 10 MR. : Should have he made sure 11 somebody like - somebody that's not in there. 12 Although, , I think that was her 13 quarterly post. Or at least she was in there a 14 lot of times -- 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- leading up to it. So, 17 should have he made sure that she -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- what about -- 20 MR. : Because she worked evening 21 watch. 22 MR. : -- what about 23 24 MR. _: , probably not. 25 But by him working in the unit, he would know. EFTA00126457 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 97 1 I mean, you would say, okay, if he's working on 2 evening watching or morning watch, there was no 3 need to move inmates. There was no showers 4 that should have been taking place. There was 5 no hearings. No medical. Nothing that we had 6 to open up a cell door for, for those inmates. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, most of those inmates was 9 done on day watch, there was no reason for them 10 to move these guys. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : You understand what III 13 saying? 14 MR. : Sure. And then, as far 15 as conversations with 16 MR. -: was one of the 17 Lieutenants. As far as - again - speaking to 18 as Lieutenants as a forum, you know, hey, got 19 to make sure that you guys are doing it, you 20 know, like that. But I know for a fact, the 21 only person that I spoke to, that I pulled in 22 my office, was the SHU OIC. 23 MR. : So -- 24 MR. : Was the SHU Lieutenant. 25 Because they're in charge of that unit. So, I EFTA00126458 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 98 1 disseminate the information and the guidance 2 out to him, and he's supposed to take that 3 guidance -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. and push it forward 6 MR. : For the unit. So, he's 7 in the charge of the unit. You went to the guy 8 in charge of the unit and you said, hey, you're 9 in charge of the unit. Make sure he's got a 10 cell mate at all times. 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : And he, then, is supposed 13 to take that, and anybody that works within his 14 unit should know? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Okay. What about these 17 Lieutenants, though, especially the ones that 18 are Acting as, like, Ops Lieutenants and 19 Activities Lieutenants -- 20 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 21 MR. : -- people like 22 I think 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Should have they known, 25 during these shifts, specifically on the 9th EFTA00126459 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and 10th -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- should have they known 4 that Epstein was required to have a cell mate? 5 MR. : I believe so. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : But, like again, I would have 8 to go back through my emails, you know, because 9 a lot of the communication that me and the 10 Lieutenants had were through e-mail, because 11 you can't catch them all on shift. 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : You know, you catch them 14 passing and coming. So, I would put out 15 guidance that way. 16 MR. : But as far as - you said 17 - that everyone knew that he had an orange card 18 and that he was a high visibility inmate, and 19 therefore, he was required to have a cell mate. 20 So, should have they known through that? 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : And is there any excuse 23 for any of them to say, I didn't know? 24 MR. _: III not going to put that on 25 the Lieutenant. You know, III not going to do EFTA00126460 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 100 1 that. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : III not going to be that guy 4 to say whatever, whatever. Because III going 5 to tell you what, sir, to be real with you, it 6 was so much going on -- 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : -- through that timeframe, 9 that I don't want to put my statement to 10 something like that, that could detrimentally 11 harm one of these Lieutenants. 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. 13 MR. -: III not going to say that, 14 hey, I talked to 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. on this day. III 17 not going to do that. 18 MR. : And III not saying about 19 speaking. III saying just the fact that there 20 was an - and again, you're saying that you 21 don't recall specific conversations about the 22 cell mate requirements -- 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- aside from . But 25 the fact that, if there was an orange -- EFTA00126461 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 101 1 2 3 4 MR. MR. MR. MR. Yes. : -- card -- : Yeah. : -- is that something that 5 just is common knowledge, if someone has an 6 orange card, a Lieutenant should know, he's got 7 an orange card, he needs a cell mate? 8 MR. : Right. But then again, also, 9 it was high visibility guys on - what do you 10 call that? - on -- 11 MR. : Ten South? 12 MR. no. On G. 13 MR. : Oh, okay. The 14 MR. : On that 15 MR. : -- the one inmate. 16 MR. -- that one occupancy. So, 17 with the guidance I had put out, I got to give 18 you that e-mail. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : That e-mail was saying that, 21 hey, these guys with these orange cards, you 22 need to ensure high visibility vigilance. 23 MR. : So - all right - so -- 24 MR. : Ensure that these guys, you 25 know, are alive, and all of this, you know, EFTA00126462 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 102 1 report any, you know, I went into detail with 2 that. 3 MR. : Okay. So, maybe not, if 4 it's an orange card, it doesn't necessarily 5 mean, then, that they require a cell mate, they 6 just require -- 7 MR. : Higher - or higher 8 supervision. 9 MR. : Okay. So, you just need 10 to know what they're doing at all times, and 11 make sure that they're okay? 12 MR. : Yeah. 13 MR. : All right. So, in this 14 instance, it wouldn't be, necessarily, cell 15 mate. It would be everybody knows keep an eye 16 on Epstein, make sure that he's -- 17 MR. : That is correct. 18 MR. : -- all right. So, 19 is the only one that you can specifically 20 recall -- 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : -- and again, what you 23 said -? 24 MR. : And then, again, when I went 25 on evening watch, morning watch, those shifts, EFTA00126463 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 103 1 when I had those teams together, yeah, I would 2 talk about vigilance after doing 30 minute 3 rounds. Making sure this is done. Making sure 4 that is done. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Making sure this guy -. 7 know, that's what I did. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Because that's what Mr. 10 wanted. So, I did it. 11 MR. : All right. And then, 12 again, just to make sure that III not 13 misunderstanding you. You said you talked to 14 specifically about it, but when you did 15 visit the SHU, not only were you telling them 16 to keep high visibility on Epstein, were you 17 also telling them, the people that you did 18 interact with, that he needed to have a cell 19 mate? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Yes. 23 MR. : On Friday, August 9th - 24 or sorry - when is the last time, can you 25 recall, that you had that conversation with the EFTA00126464 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 104 1 SHU staff? 2 MR. : I can't remember, sir. 3 MR. : No problem. 4 MR. : I don't remember. Because 5 like I said, that guidance came out between the 6 time of him being upon his release from suicide 7 watch from that last time, to the time during 8 the time that we was doing the vetting for the 9 cell mate. 10 MR. : So -? 11 MR. : So, it was, you know, it was 12 a short period of time that this guidance and 13 these conversations took place. 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : And then, the reinforcement 16 was when we would walk through the unit and 17 just do rounds. And then, III, like, hey, this 18 is a high visibility guy, why this guy got 19 trays in the cell? Extra trays in his cell. 20 Why this guy got this? So then, of course, you 21 know, a lot of people at MCC, they didn't like 22 me because I was trying to hold people 23 accountable. But I didn't always write people 24 up. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126465 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 105 1 MR. : That's how I did, I came up 2 like that. III trying to help you. People 3 thought me trying to just talk to them about 4 Correctional Services, or trying, giving them 5 little, you know, helping them out, talking to 6 them, you know, that I was trying to be the 7 know-all, be-all, be that guy. You know? You 8 know, you're not sociable, but now you're down 9 here, telling us what to do. You're not one of 10 those. That's the way it felt like. So, like, 11 again, I can give you the playbook to success. 12 But if you don't read it, it's just words. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : It's just words. And then, I 15 had a lot of issues with the Lieutenants. You 16 know, Lieutenants, you know, were self-serving, 17 even though, in my previous statement, I would 18 never say anything statements to hurt them. 19 III not doing that. But what I'll tell you 20 was, the relationship between me and the 21 Lieutenant core was not good. So, again, as we 22 move forward through today, you know, the 23 statements that I make is not to try to put 24 blame or try to hurt anybody. The only thing 25 III doing is, is telling you that, when the EFTA00126466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 106 1 Warden gave me direction, he said he wanted X, 2 Y, and Z, and X, Y, Z. Not only did I talk to 3 staff, I also re-enforced it by putting out 4 emails, because I know I can't catch everybody, 5 and I know that staff is going to blow you off. 6 I mean, like, yeah, whatever. III glad he out 7 the unit. Let's go ahead and go back to 8 whatever we was doing. It's what it is. 9 MR. : Sure. And just so you 10 know, just to give you a little bit of peace of 11 mind, we're asking you the questions directly. 12 You're not placing blame on anybody. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : So, if we ask you 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : -- like 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : -- if they were 19 responsible or something, that's not on you. 20 MR. : Oh, okay. Well, I just 21 wanted to -- 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : -- because I didn't 24 understand that. 25 MR. : Yeah, yeah. EFTA00126467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 107 1 MR. : Because like I said, III not 2 here - I mean -- 3 MR. : I mean, we might say who 4 was responsible -- 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : -- or did they drop the 7 ball? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : But that's us asking you 10 a direct question. Not you coming to us, 11 saying, it was this guy's fault. 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : You know, we're 14 specifically asking you. So, just 15 MR. : Oh, okay. Yeah. 16 MR. : -- you know? 17 MR. : That's what I didn't 18 understand. 19 MR. : But -. 20 MR. : And that's not what III 21 mean, MI not here for that. III just 22 MR. : Right. 23 MR. : -- M just here -- 24 MR. : I mean, we do have to 25 figure out -- EFTA00126468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 108 1 MR. : You know? 2 MR. : -- who did drop the ball 3 here. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : But that's not - you're 6 not coming to us. We're coming to you. 7 MR. : Right. I understand. 8 MR. : So, "On Friday, August 9, 9 2019, Lieutenant was on leave, and thus, 10 there was no dedicated Lieutenant assigned to 11 the SHU." 12 MR. : That is correct. 13 MR. : "In this event, the 14 Operations Lieutenant, Lieutenant 15 MR. : Mm-hmm. 16 MR. : -- had oversight that 17 day, and took over the responsibilities of the 18 SHU Lieutenant." 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : So, what time did - can 21 you look at the - on August 9th - what times 22 that he worked on? 23 MR. : The periods that - this is 24 Friday, right? 25 MR. : Correct. August 9th. EFTA00126469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 109 1 MR. : I got - so, basically, I have 2 was not there. 3 MR. : Oh. 4 MR. : He was there on that 5 Saturday, which was evening watch on that 6 Saturday. 7 MR. : Did he not work 4:00 III 8 to midnight? 9 MR. : He worked 4:00 III . - 10 midnight on that Saturday, the August 10th. 11 MR. : Okay. You can speak. Do 12 you know something different? 13 MR. : No, no, no. I was just 14 clarifying. 15 MR. : Oops, sorry. Can I see 16 the August 9th? 17 MR. : So, who was working on August 18 9th? 19 MR. : August 9th, it appears - 20 think you got 21 MR. : All right. So, 22 would have been the Ops Lieutenant? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : Well, and then 25 EFTA00126470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 110 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : And then, underneath 3 them, the Activities Lieutenant would have been 4 , and then, 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : Correct. All right. All 7 right. So, they must have got this wrong 8 somehow. So, it said - so, this is not 9 accurate, when it says in this report - "In 10 this event, the Operations Lieutenant, 11 Lieutenant , had oversight that day and 12 took over responsibilities for the SHU." Who 13 actually had oversight, then, since was 14 out? 15 MR. : That would have been the day 16 watch Operations Lieutenant. 17 MR. : And who was that? 18 MR. : The day watch Operations 19 Lieutenant for August 9th would have been - it 20 appears it was 21 MR. : So, would have been 22 responsible? 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : And is it your 25 understanding that knew that he needed a EFTA00126471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 cell mate? 2 MR. : I believe so, yes. 3 MR. : Okay. All right. So, 4 that was incorrect, all this stuff about the 5 thing. And then, it goes on to say, 6 informally advised his Lieutenants that 7 Epstein was not to be housed alone, and 8 emphasized the need to be vigilant about 30- 9 minute checks and unannounced rounds." And 10 that's - you said there was emails about that, 11 as well as when you spoke with your 12 Lieutenants, and when you went to the SHU, 13 specifically? 14 MR. : Mm-hmm. 15 MR. : Correct? All right. And 16 you don't remember the last time you did that, 17 but between August -- 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : -- between July 30th and 20 August 9th, you at least did it a few times? 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Okay. And you think you 23 hit at least all three shifts between that 24 time? 25 MR. : Correct. EFTA00126472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : I believe I did. Yeah. 3 MR. : All right. Inmates, cell 4 mates, and are typically the people that are 5 assigned to the SHU, are they in those three 6 shifts, or you would have hit the people that 7 are assigned between that time period? So, 8 point being, maybe you don't remember 9 specifically, I had a conversation with that 10 person, or that person, or that person, but if 11 they're assigned to SHU, not a temporary duty 12 assignment like an OT -- 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. type of assignment, 15 but the people that were assigned there -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- that was their duty, 18 too -. 19 MR. : So, like, I remember 20 specifically, I hit day watch. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. -: . I 23 remember Mr. or . Whatever 24 his name. I remember those guys. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 113 1 MR. : I know I spoke to . I 2 know I spoke to different guys. The SHU staff 3 that was always up there. 4 MR. : But you just don't 5 specifically remember talking to 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : She might have been in the 9 background somewhere. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : She could have been there. I 12 don't know. But I don't remember -- 13 MR. : But should have 14 spoken -- 15 MR. : -- actually -. 16 MR. : -- with her? 17 MR. : Of course. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Because that's part of - 20 that's part of the expectations of the unit. 21 If I give you a guidance, your guidance should 22 have been disseminated down to the Officers. 23 MR. : Okay. How about the 24 people - so, we were going to get into this 25 later, but since we're conversing about it now EFTA00126474 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 114 1 - it looks like Reyes was moved - I think his 2 appointment with court was at, like, 8:30, and 3 I think -- 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- he was gone from the 6 institution by -- 7 MR. : Mm-hmm. 8 MR. : -- like, 1:50 III. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : Does that sound right? 11 MR. : Something like that. It 12 could have been. 13 MR. : So, who was in the SHU at 14 that time? If he's gone from the institution 15 by, like, 1:50 III., who would have -- 16 MR. : So, that would have been 17 MR. : -- who would have -? 18 MR. : -- all of your 6:00 to 2:00, 19 and your 8:00 to 4:00 staff. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, that would have been -. 22 MR. : So, I guess let's go from 23 the top. Who would have been the person in 24 charge at the top level? 25 MR. : That, I mean, as far as - EFTA00126475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 115 1 that would have been SHU one, because he would 2 have got the notice that he was supposed to 3 move the guys. 4 MR. : And who was that? 5 MR. : And move the inmate. 6 MR. : And who was that? 7 MR. : It was 8 MR. . And what time 9 was he working from? 10 MR. : He was working from 8:00 to 11 4:00. 12 MR. : So, he was 8:00 to 4:00. 13 And those times are accurate on there, and if 14 some Lieutenants said, oh, we, you know, it 15 says zero to 8:00 -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- but we're actually 18 10:00 III. -- 19 MR. : And that's true, but the 20 Officers worked those prescribed shifts. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : The Lieutenants was given 23 those shifts because of their commutes. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Some of them were commuting EFTA00126476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 116 1 two hours out. So, for them to come from 2 various parts of New Jersey, or Long Island, 3 you know, as a consensus, we said, hey, I will 4 continue - because that was the previous 5 Administration, the previous Captain put that 6 in for those guys. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, you know, with those 9 conversations, you know, with the Lieutenants, 10 I said, I will keep that. I said, you know, 11 you try to do things - where I came from, we 12 didn't do those things. 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : You know, as far as that, you 15 know, the Captain ran his shifts, whatever the 16 shift was, you did it. But when I came to 17 Brooklyn, that was a common practice in 18 Brooklyn. You know, the Captain would allow 19 them - when I was the Lieutenant - would allow 20 us to, you know, to work those shifts. And due 21 to, we've got staff that commute far out. So, 22 that was just an incentive to get these guys to 23 come to work. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : You know? EFTA00126477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE is 1 MR. : Sure. 2 MR. : So, yes. 3 MR. : But the times for these, 4 the SHU staff, that's the actual hours that's 5 listed on that. 6 MR. : But for the Line staff -- 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. -- the Line staff, that 9 roster correctly imitates their schedule. 10 MR. : Perfect. So, who, then - 11 I guess you said they would be working until 12 4:00 III.? 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : So, they would have at 15 least two hours to be able to do something. 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : And who was it that was 18 on that day? 19 MR. : So, I had . I had 20 . I had . And I had 21 MR. : And did you speak with 22 all of those individuals about the need for a 23 cell mate? 24 MR. : I believe I did because they 25 were day watch, but like I said, it wouldn't EFTA00126478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 118 1 have been on August 9th. 2 MR. : Right. But just 3 MR. : It would have been on -- 4 MR. : -- but they would have 5 known the need to -. 6 MR. : They was in the unit. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : For that quarter. So, once I 9 got the guidance from Mr. of what he 10 wanted me to do, I moved on and did it. So, I 11 can't tell you, but I know I spoke to the day 12 watch SHU staff. 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : They was the first ones 1 15 spoke to. 16 MR. : So, who, then - out of 17 there - who would have the SHU staff reported 18 the matter to? 19 MR. : The what now? 20 MR. : So, the SHU staff that's 21 in there -- 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : -- they now know that he 24 doesn't have a cell mate, and the cell mate is 25 not coming back. EFTA00126479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 119 1 MR. : Okay. So, they would have 2 known that he wasn't coming back until probably 3 evening watch. 4 MR. : Okay. So, you don't 5 think those guys would have known? 6 MR. : No. They wouldn't have 7 known. Because I don't know when the inmate 8 left the institution, but what happens is, when 9 that court line comes out, I believe that the 10 inmates leave the institution - supposed to - 11 between 6:00 and 8:00, or 7:00, you know, let's 12 say 7:00 to 9:00. So, between that time, those 13 inmates are - they're picked up, and then, 14 they're transported to a court. 15 MR. : Okay. So, what time did 16 work? What was his shift? 17 MR. -: was 8:00 to 4:00. 18 MR. : So, if we can - let's 19 assume, for this instance, that knows 20 that he needs a cell mate. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : What should have he done? 23 MR. -: probably wouldn't have 24 known. 25 MR. : But let's say, for this EFTA00126480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 120 1 instance, he did know. 2 MR. : So, if he knew? 3 MR. : He knew that he needed a cell 4 mate, and he knew that the cell mate wasn't 5 coming back. 6 MR. : He probably wouldn't - but 7 what III trying to tell you, sir - he probably 8 wouldn't have never known. 9 MR. : I know, but in this 10 instance, just saying, let's 11 MR. : Oh, oh, okay. 12 MR. : -- let's say that he did. 13 MR. : Okay. So, the instance of 14 what would have happen. What would happen was 15 16 MR. : What should have he done? 17 MR. : -- he should have - okay, 18 this guy is not coming - he should have 19 notified me. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : And should have been, like, 22 hey, Cap, hey, Reyes, Epstein's cell mate, hey, 23 he went out to court, he's not coming back. 24 MR. : And he did not? 25 MR. : No. EFTA00126481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 121 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : No one later informed me that 3 that inmate had even went to court. I didn't 4 even know he went with the court. Because 5 guess what? During the time this inmate is in 6 court, Epstein is in Attorney visiting all day. 7 MR. : Sure. 8 MR. : So, nobody would have even 9 thought about it because, oh, Epstein is in 10 Attorney visiting, his cell mate is not in 11 there. Okay, his cell mate went to court. 12 Nobody would have even been made aware that he 13 didn't have a cellie until when they went to 14 put him physically in the cell. 15 MR. : Okay. So, when do you 16 think it would have been - in this instance 17 when do you think it would have come up? 18 MR. : As far as knowing he didn't 19 have a cellie? 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : Somebody should have known 22 when he didn't come. That should have been on 23 evening watch. 24 MR. : So, who was on evening 25 watch? EFTA00126482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 122 1 MR. : So, evening watch, well, 2 well, well, well, well, well let's see here. 3 You're talking about as the OIC? 4 MR. : In the SHU. 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. : That would have been 8 9 MR. : Okay. So, 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : And who should have he 12 reported the matter to? 13 MR. : He would have reported it to 14 the Operations Lieutenant. 15 MR. : And who was the 16 Operations Lieutenant at that time? 17 MR. : I believe the Lieutenant 18 would have been, that would have been 19 MR. : All right. And 20 again, you, no one told you, so, obviously, 21 didn't tell you. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : So - okay - and would 24 gone directly to 25 MR. : Yeah. He would have called EFTA00126483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 123 1 . But guess what? I was there. I 2 didn't leave that night until, like, 8:00 3 something. I was there until 8:00 that night. 4 MR. : Right. And you did not 5 visit the SHU that night, though. Correct? 6 MR. : I can't remember. 7 MR. : All right. 8 MR. -: III not going to say did I 9 make rounds that day or didn't I. I don't 10 know. 11 MR. : Yeah. 12 MR. : But I know I didn't leave 13 that institution until late that night. 14 MR. : And you know, though, 15 that Reyes, you were never aware - on that day, 16 August 9th - that Reyes -- 17 MR. : Had went to court. No. 18 MR. : -- you didn't even know 19 he went to court, let alone wasn't coming back. 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : Okay. So, 22 should have went direct to 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : All right. And 25 is somebody that you did have a conversation EFTA00126484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 124 1 with, with regard to the need for a cell mate. 2 Correct? 3 MR. : I don't know if I - again, 4 talking to people in all three shifts, do I 5 remember ? Working in the unit? Yeah. 6 But as you're talking to people, I don't 7 remember that, hey, I talked - there's certain 8 people that I can't remember that I spoke 9 specifically to. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : As opposed to some people, 12 you know, could have been in the area. That's 13 why I can't - I know I talked to the day watch 14 SHU staff for sure. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : And I mentioned those names. 17 I talked to those guys. 18 MR. : So, but should have 19 certainly have told them? 20 MR. : Yes. 21 MR. : So, he's the Officer-in- 22 Charge. Who else was on that day? 23 MR. : You had . And she 24 was the number two. And then, you had I. 25 EFTA00126485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 125 1 MR. . Correct? 2 MR. : -- yeah. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. -: . And then, you had I. 5 , was SHU three that day. And then, you 6 had the SHU four, was not assigned. 7 MR. : Okay. So, those three 8 people were in SHU. So, was it ultimately the 9 Officer-in-Charge responsibility, or should 10 have these other two - and - have 11 taken any action? Should have they contacted 12 anyone? 13 MR. : Well, if you're walking, and 14 you're doing rounds in the unit, you would see 15 - especially at the 4:00 count, because you 16 need to know where all of your inmates are - 17 so, at that 4:00 count, and where is Epstein? 18 Epstein is at - he's in Attorney visiting, 19 because III going to get a count slip from 20 Attorney visiting, right? 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Where is Reyes? Reyes is out 23 at court. Then somebody should have called R&D 24 (Phonetic Sp. *01:45:06). Where is this guy 25 at? Somebody should have called R&D. That EFTA00126486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 126 1 means the Lieutenant would have been notified 2 because you can't clear the count. Where is 3 the inmate at? 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : So, if you can't clear the 6 count, where is the inmate? The inmate went 7 out. But it's now 4:00. But I did say that 8 sometimes inmates don't come back on the 4:00. 9 So, they call that "ghosting." Supposedly, 10 he's supposed to be at court. But did you get 11 a count slip from court? No. When he leaves 12 out of the institution, that's on them. So, 13 that means the institution number should have 14 came down minus one. 15 MR. : So, you believe that the 16 SHU should have known by 4:00 III., during the 17 4:00 III. count? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : All right. And let's 20 in this case - if they didn't do a count at 21 4:00 III., should have they somehow known 22 otherwise, after that? So, would someone have 23 contacted them and said, by the way, this guy 24 is not coming back? 25 MR. : Right. So, that means that, EFTA00126487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 127 1 that the 4:00 count, when you going through the 2 unit -. 3 MR. : But if they didn't do a 4 4:00 III. count. So, let's say, in this 5 instance, that they didn't do a 4:00 III 6 count. 7 MR. : Nobody would know. 8 MR. : Would R&D have 9 MR. Nope. 10 MR. : -- called them? 11 MR. : No. 12 MR. : So, unless they do the 13 count, they don't even know that the guy is not 14 coming back? 15 MR. : That's right. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, normally -. 18 MR. : So, no one is calling 19 them and saying, by the way, your guy that went 20 to court, he's not coming back? 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Because you would know. 24 Because like I told you before, sometimes 25 inmates go to court and don't come back. The EFTA00126488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 128 1 only time you're going to know is when these 2 guys always come back from the court line by 3 4:00. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : But sometimes they don't come 6 back at 4:00. 7 MR. : Now, what time was their 8 shift? Was it 4:00 to midnight? 9 MR. : Who? 10 MR. : The people we were just 11 talking about, the evening watch. 12 MR. : Yes. Their - yes. 4:00 to 13 midnight. 14 MR. : So, 4:00 III. to 15 midnight. At that point, if it was recognized 16 that there was no cell mate and he needed a 17 cell mate, could have a - if they did contact 18 the Ops Lieutenant, Ops Lieutenant did contact 19 you - could have an inmate been assigned at 20 that time, or would have had to have wait the 21 next day? 22 MR. : Well, what I would have done, 23 if I would have known right then and there that 24 he didn't have a cell mate, he's already in 25 Attorney visiting, right? EFTA00126489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 129 1 MR. : Yup. 2 MR. : So, I would have went on 3 ahead. All right. Keep him in Attorney 4 visiting. I would have called - guess who I 5 would have called? I would have let the AW 6 know. Ms. . Well, Ms. , and 7 I would have called the Warden. I would have 8 said, hey, look, this guy went out the WAB 9 today. Or Reyes didn't come back from court. 10 We got to vet another guy. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : That's what would happen. 13 And plus, I was there at 8:00. So, let's say 14 he got released from Attorney visiting, and he 15 didn't go back, and when they went to the - 16 let's say, hey, this dude - he don't have a 17 cell mate. I would have been, like, hold up. 18 I would have said, because I got R&D staff down 19 there. Right? 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : Because I can't put him on 22 suicide watch. I can't put him on close 23 supervision. So, I would have said, hey, 24 quarter this guy right now in R&D, put a staff 25 member on it, which would have been Fox One. EFTA00126490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 130 1 Put him on Fox One. Put a staff member down 2 there. Let me call the Warden. 3 MR. : What does Fox One mean? 4 MR. : That means - that's R&D. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : That's that cell assignment, 7 I believe. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : It would have been Fox One. 10 MR. : And are those -. 11 MR. : Just, I can't just put him on 12 suicide watch. 13 MR. : Right. And in Fox One, 14 people monitored at all times? 15 MR. : No. But I would have had 16 somebody monitored -- 17 MR. : Oh, I gotcha. 18 MR. : I would have had, hey, put 19 a staff member down there, and watch this guy, 20 until we get him a cell mate. 21 MR. : Okay. And you think that 22 that same day, August 9th, he would have had a 23 cell mate, if you were made aware? 24 MR. : Yes. If I was made aware, he 25 would have got a cell mate. EFTA00126491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 131 1 MR. : Okay. Now, let's go back 2 and say, if did know, and didn't tell 3 anybody, he didn't tell you, he didn't tell 4 5 MR. : Mm-hmm. 6 MR. : -- is he the one that 7 MR. : He dropped the ball. 8 MR. : -- right. 9 MR. : Because, again, like I told 10 you about count, and you made a good statement, 11 then how did you clear the count? 12 MR. : Mm-hmm. So, the two 13 people that - so, if knew, and he didn't 14 tell anybody he dropped the ball, but at the 15 same time, if the 4:00 III. count was 16 conducted, they would have, then, raised the 17 issue with 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. : So, there would have been 20 two checks there. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : And if not that, it would 23 have also happened at the 10:00 III. count, as 24 well. 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00126492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 132 1 MR. : So, if the 4:00 III. 2 count, the 10:00 count were both 3 conducted, there would have been notice, hey, 4 no cell mate -- 5 MR. : Correct. 6 MR. : -- bring it up to 7 8 MR. : Correct. 9 MR. : All right. So, if 10 didn't know, didn't tell him. 11 So, dropped the ball, the SHU staff 12 dropped the ball, it looks like. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : Okay. Before we move on 15 from that, do you want to talk to anything 16 specific to that notion? 17 MR. : No. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Can we take a break? 20 MR. : Absolutely. All right. 21 It is currently 11:58 M. This is Senior 22 Special Agent , and I am 23 pausing the recording. 24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 off the record and back on the record). EFTA00126493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 133 1 MR. : Okay. The recorder is 2 on. It is currently Tuesday, June 15, 2021, at 3 12:06 III. We just took a short eight-minute 4 break. And Mr. , I remind you that you 5 are under oath. Thank you very much for your 6 cooperation with this matter, and it is 7 voluntary, and you can choose not to answer, or 8 leave at any time. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : All right. So, what we 11 are talking about before, before we move on, I 12 just want to go back to, so, you said, if 13 knew he dropped the ball, if the SHU staff 14 didn't do their counts at 4:00 III., and at 15 10:00 III., that's when they would have next 16 found out that Epstein was without a cell mate, 17 and they would have, then, reported it up. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Correct? What did we want 20 to follow up with on that? 21 MR. : If a notification came from 22 court that Reyes wasn't coming back, who would 23 have got that notification? 24 MR. : That notification would have 25 came though R&D and through the Control Center, EFTA00126494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 134 1 which, the Control Center would have updated 2 the count in Sentry, to reflect if the inmate 3 was physically in the institution, or was still 4 out in court. So, it would be contingent to 5 look at that Sentry roster, which would be the 6 E-1, that the Control Center had created for 7 those counts, to find out if Reyes was still on 8 the count, as physically being in the 9 institution, or out the court. 10 MR. : Okay. And if R&D and Control 11 did get that notification, did they have to 12 notify the SHU? 13 MR. : Yes. Because then the count 14 would be off. 15 MR. : If, let's just say that that 16 notification came between 1:00 III. and 3:00 17 III., who in the SHU would have got notified? 18 MR. : The OIC. Which would have 19 been - for day watch - it would have been 20 either or 21 MR. : And what should they have 22 done? 23 MR. : And with that one time, they 24 would have reflected on - inside of Sentry, and 25 also, they would have known that the inmate was EFTA00126495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 135 1 not physically there, and they would have had 2 notified the Operations Lieutenant, that this 3 guy didn't come back. So, that means somebody 4 would have had to make sure that the 5 institutional count was right or wrong. 6 MR. : So, in this instance, if 7 knew, who would have been the one that 8 would have informed him? 9 MR. : That would have one of the - 10 that would have been either 11 would have notified him, but then, I also said 12 that worked in the capacity of OIC 13 because a lot of those Officers would say, oh, 14 I don't have the ability to log on, into the 15 program. So, he would do double duties. 16 MR. : Okay. So, let's say that 17 the SHU staff that time did notify 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Let's say now 20 didn't take any action. 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : Okay? Now, let's say the 23 next SHU staff comes on board, should they 24 continue to report the matter up the chain? 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00126496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 136 1 MR. : Even though the SHU that 2 replaced them already made the notification 3 that Epstein was without a cell mate and needed 4 a new one? 5 MR. : Because their count would 6 have been off. 7 MR. : Well -. 8 MR. : And then, they wouldn't have 9 known that, you know, when they brought him 10 back from Attorney visiting, that the cell was 11 empty. 12 MR. : Right. And III not 13 specifically talking about the count right now. 14 What III saying is, like, if the SHU did notify 15 , hey, Epstein is required to have a cell 16 mate and his cell mate is gone, we need to get 17 him a new one. 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. now never takes any 20 action. Should the SHU, later that day, made 21 the same notification to the - in this case - 22 to ? Hey, Epstein still hasn't been re- 23 assigned a cell mate. 24 MR. : Correct. 25 MR. : Okay. So, the SHU may EFTA00126497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 137 1 have done it right at day watch, and got 2 the notification, but the SHU on night watch -- 3 MR. : Didn't do it. 4 MR. : -- didn't do it, and they 5 should have. 6 MR. : Because he was in Attorney 7 visiting. So, they said, oh, it was an empty 8 cell. We said, okay, yeah. Epstein is still 9 at Attorney visiting. Nobody would have cared 10 about the cellie because they would have 11 thought he was still out at court. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : But if he didn't come back by 14 8:00 that night, somebody should have said 15 something. 16 MR. : Now, let's go even 17 further from, now we go from evening watch to 18 now morning watch, we're on August 10th, where 19 and are now in there. 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : Should have they made the 22 notification to 23 MR. : They wouldn't have known. 24 MR. : All right. So, they 25 should have -. EFTA00126498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 138 1 MR. : They would have been in the 2 unit, with the assumption that all of the 3 inmates have been accounted for by the previous 4 shifts because the count didn't go - wasn't 5 bad. 6 MR. : So, that's the 12:00 7 III., 3:00 III., and 5:00 III.? 8 MR. : Correct. 9 MR. : Are you saying they don't 10 really need to do those counts? 11 MR. : No, no, no. III not saying 12 that. What III saying is, they would have not 13 known that that inmate didn't come back from 14 court, if it wasn't addressed on either at day 15 watch or evening watch. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : They wouldn't know. They 18 would just - can't be responsible for counting 19 what inmates was housed in that unit, between 20 the hours of 12:00 to 5:00 III. Because those 21 are the three counts. 22 MR. : These. 23 MR. : So, yeah, let's see - so, 24 these are the counts - let's look. 25 MR. : So, the 5:00 III. one? EFTA00126499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 139 1 MR. : All right. So, I got the 2 3 MR. : 5:00. 4 MR. : -- it looks like we got 5 the 5:00, the 10:00, the midnight, the 3:00 6 III., the 5:00 III., and then, is this the 7 rounds? 8 MR. : Yeah. That's the control. 9 MR. : The control. 10 MR. : Yeah, we don't want this. 11 I'll take this. 12 MR. : Okay. So, here are the 13 counts from August 9th, from 4:00 III. through 14 August 10th, through 5:00 III. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Now, we have reason to 17 believe that the 4:00 III., the 10:00 III., the 18 12:00 III., the 3:00 III., and the 5:00 III 19 none of them were conducted. 20 MR. : Okay. So, you're saying that 21 the 4:00 count for August 9th was not done, and 22 the 10:00 wasn't done? 23 MR. : And the 10:00. And nor 24 was the 12:00 III., the 3:00 III., or the 5:00 25 EFTA00126500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 140 1 MR. : Okay. So -- 2 MR. : Now, is there a way to 3 look at that, if there is someone, let's say, 4 because at the 12:00 III. count, you'll notice 5 there is a discrepancy. There is one inmate 6 they're off by. Control says, hey, you're off 7 by one. 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : Is there a way to kind of 10 look at these counts and notice, all right, 11 this would have been picked up then, or a way 12 to kind of tell that these weren't conducted by 13 just looking at those documents, or noticing 14 if, you know, if Reyes is gone by 1:50, you 15 know -- 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : -- he's released. I; 18 there a way to tell that on there? 19 MR. : Because you've got it ri 20 here. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : This is the form right there. 23 This will tell you who the inmates are, out of 24 count 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 141 1 MR. : And that's from Small. He 2 was one of the receiving and discharged 3 employees that was probably working on August 4 9th. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, she would know who was 7 still out at count. So, that means, Operations 8 Lieutenant didn't even sign it. That's a 9 violation. 10 MR. : So, this document that 11 you're looking at, it looks like - what is it? 12 - like, the third page on there? 13 MR. : Yeah. That they should have 14 - because you've got right here. Clark. 15 Unassigned work assignments. So, this inmate 16 Clark. This saying he's out at court. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, he -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- so now, our count is minus 21 one. But we know where he is because he's 22 still out at court. So, Reyes, that count - 23 so, if he went out to court, let's say we was 24 at 88, let's just say. When he went out to 25 court, him and Clark went out, we would have EFTA00126502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 142 1 went down to 86. But guess what? Reyes drops 2 off the count. How? He got released. Where is 3 the -- 4 MR. : So, if he was released -- 5 MR. : -- form that should have came 6 from the Marshals back to us, saying that he 7 got released. 8 MR. : So, between the 10:00 9 count and the 4:00 III. count, would there 10 be a form in there showing that he was 11 released? 12 MR. : There should have been. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That should have been 15 generated from the Marshals because it's a 16 transfer order. You heard of a transfer order? 17 Every time an inmate goes off, if you've got 18 ten that went out to court that day, that's 19 that transfer order. Whatever the disposition 20 of those inmates are, okay, boom, ten went out 21 to count, eight coming back. Okay, where are 22 the other two? Okay. I got this guy that's 23 still out of counted, and he's at court. He's 24 still at whatever, at this timeframe. Where is 25 Reyes? There should have been a transfer EFTA00126503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 143 1 receipt signed by the Marshals by the staff 2 that was at the New York court over there, the 3 people that handle the inmates, that transfer 4 order should have been sent back with whoever 5 was transporting the inmates, and brought back 6 to the institution to say that this guy never 7 came back. 8 MR. : So, that third page that 9 you're saying, though, that that was a 10 violation that the Operations Lieutenant didn't 11 sign? 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : Would have that been 14 or , at that time? 15 MR. : Because all of this stuff, 16 it's called a 30-day file. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, what the Lieutenants are 19 supposed to do on their shift, is supposed to, 20 when they make rounds in Control, they're 21 suppose - because we're supposed to take a 22 count on every shift. Especially in the off- 23 hours. So, before Epstein, that was a 24 responsibility. On the off-hours, you will be 25 responsible for taking the count. So, that EFTA00126504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 144 1 evening watch guy would take that 10:00 count. 2 Right? Or somebody would take the 4:00 count. 3 So, the Operations Lieutenant or the Activities 4 would normally go down and take the 4:00. They 5 would go through the paperwork for that day, up 6 to 4:00, and you would sign all of the forms. 7 Like, if somebody checked out keys, restricted 8 key forms, Operations is supposed to sign it. 9 MR. : Mm-hmm. 10 MR. : If a transfer order receipts 11 comes back, you're supposed to sign it. 12 Whatever happens on that shift, you're supposed 13 to sign the count slips. That form, right 14 here? That should have been signed by the 15 Lieutenant. 16 MR. : Okay. So, these forms 17 that we're looking at 4:00 III., there is a 18 number of signatures that are missing? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : And should have that been 21 the Lieutenant, as in - it looks like 22 or -? 23 MR. : Official preparing count, 24 official taking count. Those are going to be 25 so, the person that was taking that count would EFTA00126505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 145 1 have been the OIC, then the person who actually 2 was there as a Lieutenant that was taking the 3 count, normally we would sign it in red. 4 MR. : Now, the Lieutenant, when 5 you say they're there, aren't they in the 6 Control Center? 7 MR. : They're in the Control Center 8 9 MR. : And then, the SHU calls - 10 11 MR. -- while the Officers are 12 doing the count. 13 MR. : Okay. So, the SHU calls 14 in, says, we got the count, 72, 73, 74, 15 whatever it is. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : And in this case, when 18 you look at the 4:00 III. though, you're seeing 19 that there was no Lieutenant that signed off on 20 that? 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : So, on the first page, as 23 well as the third page, was where they should 24 have signed? 25 MR. : Right. EFTA00126506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 146 1 MR. : All right. And then -. 2 MR. : Yeah, because I got a - look 3 - I got a signature for this one, that was 4 approved by the Operations Lieutenant right 5 here. 6 MR. : And who was that? 7 MR. : That's - I don't know who 8 that signature is. 9 MR. : All right. It looks like 10 would have been on duty, is that what 11 time? 12 MR. : That's going to be 4:00 III. 13 whoever took the 4:00 III., that Lieutenant 14 would have been 15 MR. : Okay. Can we go to the 16 SHU count slips themselves? And that should be 17 the last, like, page or two. 18 MR. : See, yup. Those are the 19 inmates that went to the Attorney visiting. 20 So, those three would have been on the count -- 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : -- slip. Now, you said 23 where? 24 MR. : The very last page. 25 It's, like, the actual slips. EFTA00126507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE li 1 MR. : These? 2 MR. : Yup. So, these are the 3 slips that the actual SHU - for the ones that 4 are in the SHU. Can you just put an initial by 5 it, or circle it, or whatever, which ones it is 6 that would have been conducted at the SHU? 7 MR. : Okay. I think it's Zulu 8 Bravo. Zulu Alpha. 9 MR. : So, ZA and ZB are the two 10 SHUs? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Are there any more than 13 that? 14 MR. : You have - so, that's - 15 you've got Food Service. GS, (Indiscernible 16 *00:12:11) Attorney visiting. That's Kilo 17 India. That's court. Kilo Zulu. Yes. So, 18 Zulu Alpha would have been that, and then, that 19 would have been Ten South. 20 MR. : All right. So, Ten 21 South. 22 MR. : Charlie Alpha. Charlie 23 Alpha. 24 MR. : But no, just specific to 25 the SHU. Like, where? Not - I don't know if EFTA00126508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 Ten South is considered SHU, but III just 2 talking specific to, like, where Epstein was, 3 in the SHU. Like, who, you know, the -- 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : III assuming the 72, 6 73 count. 7 MR. : Yeah. Right here. That 8 would have been the Zulu Bravo and the Zulu 9 Alpha. 10 MR. : All right. Great. And 11 are you able to tell me who all are on those 12 slips? 13 MR. : It says and 14 , and 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : And that would have been for 17 the 4:00. 18 MR. : All right. 19 MR. : For I. , and 20 for the 4:00 count. 21 MR. : Okay. And now, what is 22 the difference between the ZB and ZA? 23 MR. : I believe that ZA is the 24 total SHU. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 149 1 MR. : And then, then you had the 2 inmates that were up on Ten South. 3 MR. : Okay. So, the ZB, is 4 that Ten South, then? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : So, we're focused on ZA? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MR. : All right. So, ZA, and 9 that one was signed by who? 10 MR. : It looks like and 11 12 MR. : Now, if that count wasn't 13 actually conducted, are they the only two that 14 are responsible for falsifying that, or would 15 the other people -? 16 MR. : This would be the whole Unit. 17 It would be -- 18 MR. : The whole Unit. 19 MR. : -- the OIC, everybody that 20 was in the Unit. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Because that means, on 23 evening watch, I believe you have one, two, 24 three, four staff, and they all have a 25 different range that they have a responsibility EFTA00126510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 150 1 of. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know what III saying? So, 4 they feed us, they feed the ranges. They 5 monitor the ranges by doing the 30-minute 6 rounds. So, the OIC has the key. So, those 7 other three staff - the number two, the three, 8 and the four, I believe - they're supposed to 9 do rounds, feed, do - issue cosmetics - do 10 whatever they need to do as far as the normal 11 operations inside the unit. So, if nobody 12 counted, that means who count, who help assist 13 in counting in Ten South? For the five guys. 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : Because I believe the 16 Lieutenant is supposed to come up. Normally, 17 the Activities will go up, I believe, and do 18 the count in Zulu Bravo. So, that means that 19 one of the Lieutenants would be up in the unit 20 when the count was going on. 21 MR. : So, in this case, a 22 Lieutenant should have actually been present? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Which Lieutenant on that 25 date would that have been? EFTA00126511 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 151 1 MR. : So, that would have been -- 2 MR. : That was the August 9th. 3 MR. that would have been -- 4 MR. : Are we looking at August 5 9th? 6 MR. : -- so, probably took 7 the count. And then, R. - or Ms. 8 would have been in Ten South, 9 doing the count in Ten South, I believe. If I 10 could remember. It's been a while. 11 MR. : All right. So -. 12 MR. : Because it's only per - 13 there's only one staff member inside of Ten 14 South. 15 MR. : So. Ms. should 16 have been present for the count at 4:00 III.? 17 MR. : Yeah. Because III looking, 18 and you have Ten South number one was 19 And then, you had Ten South number two was G. So, probably was up there 21 doing property. 22 MR. : Now, is this only for the 23 four, or should there have been a Lieutenant, 24 as well as in the 10:00 III., 12:00 III., 3:00 25 III., and 5:00 III.? EFTA00126512 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 152 1 MR. : So, 2 MR. : So, who is 3 MR. -: is one of the 4 Officers. 5 MR. : What is the first name on 6 that? 7 MR. -: . And then, III 8 looking in here, so, Ten South number two is G. 9 , which is the Property Officer. So, 10 during that time, I was hiring to go 11 up here and get the property situated on the 12 evening watch. 13 MR. : So, is even 14 working in the SHU at that point? I think he 15 would have had the first -- 16 MR. : Because, you know, that - 17 because that would have been . Let 18 me look at the day of, because I don't think he 19 would work that, because it said is 20 the number one. 21 MR. : And that's where III 22 confused, by looking at some of these counts, 23 why would they even have -? 24 MR. -: was on overtime. 25 So, was day watch. So, that means EFTA00126513 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE ir 1 probably came in late. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, probably did the 4 count because didn't get there. And now, 5 he was notorious for that. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Mr. a good guy, but he 8 had some health problems, and maybe he didn't 9 get there on time. So, went on ahead, 10 and since the count started at 4:00, he 11 probably went ahead and did the count. 12 MR. : All right. And are you 13 able to tell on that, does this have a time for 14 when the count was supposedly conducted? 15 MR. : It's all of them going to 16 reflect 4:00. 17 MR. : Just 4:00. 18 MR. : 4:00. It's not going to sal. 19 4:05, 4:04. The count is 4:00 III 20 MR. : Okay. So, in this case, 21 though, the one for the overall SHU, that would 22 have been - you said - is that a (Indiscernible 23 *00:17:15), or are you just telling that's for 24 the Ten South? 25 MR. : Overall SHU would have been EFTA00126514 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 154 1 Zulu Alpha. 2 MR. : Yeah, and who was on 3 that? That's where III -. 4 MR. -: and 5 MR. : So, and 6 would have been the one that did the 7 overall, but what you're saying is everyone - 8 if the overall count was not conducted - 9 everyone was responsible? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : For falsifying that? 12 MR. : Yup. 13 MR. : Because everyone would 14 have known. 15 MR. : They would have known -- 16 MR. : That it wasn't conducted. 17 MR. : -- that it wasn't conducted. 18 MR. : Now, is there any kind 19 of, like, hey, we fed them, that's how we did 20 our count? 21 MR. : No. Count - because I put 22 this guidance out -- 23 MR. : Yup. 24 MR. -- the difference between 25 doing rounds and accurate rounds, you know, we EFTA00126515 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 155 1 talked about the timeframe that goes between 2 the 30-minute rounds. So, like, let's say it's 3 11:00. You should do a round somewhere between 4 11:00 and 11:30. You understand? 5 MR. : Yup. 6 MR. : If it's done at 11:29, that's 7 fine. But you should be doing it within that 8 30-minutes because it has to be irregular. So, 9 you can't put on there and said, I did rounds 10 at 11:00, 11:30. 11 MR. : 12:00. 12 MR. : 12:00, 12:30. You know, you 13 can't do it like that. So, let's say, you 14 know, you're feeding up there, you're up t here 15 feeding, but that round is not going to be 16 because you're not monitoring, you're doing a 17 service. Just because you're on the range, 18 that means you did a round. A round is 19 physically stopping what you're doing. So, if 20 III feeding during the time it's supposed to, 21 III supposed to do a round, secure the slot, 22 go to the beginning of the range. One, two, 23 five, seven, nine, 11, whatever, whatever, 24 whatever. Document the time I did the round. 25 Then go back to feeding. It's not while III up EFTA00126516 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 156 1 there. Okay, I'll feed the range, it took me 2 seven minutes, 7.9 seconds to feed a round. 3 And so, that's telling me that you did a 4 regular round for a hour, one hour, because you 5 was up there for 45 minutes? No. Did you do a 6 round? 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Did you - can I physically 9 watch you go from cell to cell? That's a round. 10 MR. : But what about - so, can 11 a round can't be a count - but can a count be a 12 round? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : So, every 30 minutes, if 15 you're doing a count at 4:00, you also have to 16 do a round at 4:00? 17 MR. : Yup. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Because if I go up there at 20 4:00, if I go - let's say I start 4:00. At 21 4:00, that's going to be that round. You 22 understand what III saying? Because count, III 23 taking accountability of the unit, so, if it 24 takes probably two or three minutes a count, 25 that would be 4:03 that I count in that range. EFTA00126517 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE lr 1 I go to the next range. III done at 4:09. 2 4:16. 4:20. 4:27. Guess what? Between that 3 30 to 5:00, I got to go do another round, in 4 between that timeframe, not to exceed 40 5 minutes. That's the policy. 6 MR. : Okay. Do you know 7 anything about the SHU not conducting rounds? 8 MR. : Do I know of SHU not 9 conducting rounds? 10 MR. : If the personnel in the 11 SHU. Do you know of anything about that, of 12 them -? 13 MR. : I would have never known that 14 those staff were not - because again, that's 15 not my purview. 16 MR. : Sure. 17 MR. : To sit down there and monitor 18 19 MR. : So -- 20 MR. : -- rounds. 21 MR. : I just mean, like, had 22 anybody told -- 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : -- told you this? 25 MR. : No. I would have never known EFTA00126518 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 158 1 until after the Epstein thing, we had to 2 monitor the camera footage of what the SHU 3 staff did, and I was appalled to what they were 4 doing on the off-hours. 5 MR. : So now, after the fact, 6 are you aware if any of these counts were 7 conducted or not conducted? 8 MR. : I was not made aware that no 9 count was conducted because I do not monitor 10 camera footage of the staff -- 11 MR. : No, III saying after -- 12 MR. so, I wouldn't know. 13 MR. : -- no, III saying after 14 the fact. So now. 15 MR. : Now, I know, and I was - and 16 again, when I had to monitor the footage per 17 the new directive that was put out for the 18 Central Office, and the Captain would have to 19 monitor X amount of hours of SHU footage per 20 week? Even after we had the situation with 21 Epstein, staff wasn't still doing it right. 22 MR. : But in the - what III 23 asking is - in those instances, do you know if 24 the 4:00, the 10:00, the 5:00, on these August 25 9th and August 10th, do you -- EFTA00126519 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 159 1 MR. : I would have thought they 2 would have been done. 3 MR. -- but do you - now - do 4 you know if they were or they weren't? 5 MR. : I was told that they were not 6 conducted. 7 MR. : 4:00 III., as well? 8 MR. : I was told that the Officers 9 that were assigned to the morning watch shift 10 did not do rounds from the time they walked 11 into that Unit until the time that they found 12 inmate Epstein deceased in the cell. 13 MR. : That, I think what you're 14 referring to is the August 10th -- 15 MR. : Yes. 16 MR. : III saying August 9th. 17 MR. : August 9th. I would have not 18 known that. 19 MR. : No, no, no, no. Now. 20 III talking about. 21 MR. : Now, III aware of it. 22 Because if the inmate didn't come back from 23 court, how did you clear court? 24 MR. : And did you know that 25 prior to this conversation, though? Have you EFTA00126520 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 160 1 ever -- 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : -- oh. Yeah. So, what 4 III saying is 5 MR. : So, this is all new to me. 6 MR. : -- okay. So, you didn't 7 - you had never heard, up until this date, that 8 it's possible that the 4:00 III. and the 10:00 9 were not conducted? 10 MR. : That is correct. 11 MR. : All right. And no one 12 ever brought that to your attention? 13 MR. : That is correct. 14 MR. : Okay. You can just 15 speak. 16 MR. : Did you - what if I told you 17 there was a memo written by Officer 18 stating that he told Officers 19 and that at 1:50 III., on August 9th, 20 that inmate Reyes was going WAB, and possibly 21 not returning? 22 MR. : Hmm. Didn't know anything 23 about that. 24 MR. : So, no one made you aware 25 about it? EFTA00126521 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 161 1 MR. : Nope. So, 1:50. If they 2 knew that he was - like, I remember, I told you 3 - that it comes out automatically, from R&D. 4 It says, the X, Y, Z inmate won't be returning, 5 so he needs to bring his belongings to court 6 line. So, if they knew he was WAB, who 7 informed him? Because I bet you, I can 8 guarantee, on that Sentry paperwork, that was 9 generated that morning, that night - so, that 10 would have been the 7th, because it's generated 11 on the 7th for the 8th - no, the 8th for the 12 9th, I know it didn't have WAB on it. 13 MR. : Okay. So, my question -- 14 MR. : What does WAB stand for? 15 MR. With All Belongings. 16 MR. : Oh. 17 MR. : That's what you would -- 18 MR. : Huh? 19 MR. : WAB stands for With All 20 Belongings. Right? 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : So, and here's my question 23 for you. If Officer was aware of that 24 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126522 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 162 1 MR. : -- he would be made aware by 2 who? 3 MR. : He would have been made by 4 R&D staff. 5 MR. : Who was the R&D staff that 6 day? 7 MR. : Well, the only one I could - 8 because he's not on our roster, he's not 9 Correctional Services - I can only go by this. 10 MR. : And who is that? 11 MR. : Ms. Small. 12 MR. : Ms. Small. Okay. 13 MR. : But I can tell you Ms. Small, 14 she works from - I think her end shift is 15 10:00. So, that means she would have been 16 there around 2:00, because I think she worked 17 2:00 to 10:00. I don't think - on the weekends 18 - I don't think the R&D staff stayed past 19 10:00, past 10:00. You understand what III 20 saying? 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So, they didn't stay past 23 10:00. 24 MR. : So, my question is, if R&D 25 knew, should that Control document - on the EFTA00126523 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 163 1 first page - should that have been updated by 2 then? 3 MR. : Yup. This E-1 -- 4 MR. : So, is that 5 MR. -- this E-1 should have 6 this is not a correct E-1. 7 MR. : So, the E-1 is wrong? So, at 8 that point, that 4:00 III. count, that out - 9 what is that? The last column, what does that 10 say? 11 MR. : Which one, sir? 12 MR. : The out count. The out count 13 shouldn't have shown 1:00 for the SHU. 14 MR. : Right. Because it would have 15 said 2:00. You know what III saying? Because 16 that means that out count from the SHU was 17 Jeffrey Epstein. 18 MR. : If you look at it, is the 19 Epstein popping up on another column over 20 there? Under attorney visit. 21 MR. : It should have been on -- 22 MR. : Is there an Attorney -? 23 MR. Attorney visiting. 24 MR. : Is he on there? On Attorney 25 visiting. At - check the first or second EFTA00126524 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 164 1 column. 2 MR. : Okay. Let's see. 3 MR. : Is there one that says ATTY? 4 MR. : Okay. No, sir. I don't see 5 ATTY on it. 6 MR. : Can I see that for a second? 7 This one right here. 8 MR. : Oh, sorry. sorry. 9 MR. : I pointed to the first column 10 that said it. 11 MR. : Okay. III sorry. Yes. It 12 shows that there was a total on the - a total 13 of three inmates that was out at Attorney, and 14 out at Attorney visiting, during the 4:00 III 15 count. 16 MR. : And one of them, did one of 17 those inmates belong to the SHU? 18 MR. : One of those was Zulu Alpha. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : And then, at that point, they 22 also - for Zulu Alpha - they're showing that 23 one inmate was for - is still on out count, 24 which means possibly, that it's mentioning 25 Efrain Reyes, then? EFTA00126525 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 165 1 MR. : Okay. Now -- 2 MR. : The last column. 3 MR. : -- the last column, it says 4 out count, it still says 1:00 for Zulu Alpha. 5 MR. : So, it should have been 6 updated by then, being the fact that this is 7 the 4:00 count? 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : They should have been updated 10 by then, because they got a notification at 11 1:50 that he's not coming back. 12 MR. : Correct. 13 MR. : So, that E-1 document is 14 wrong. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Now, if told 17 Officers , and that inmate 18 Reyes wasn't going WAB, and that Epstein would 19 need to be assigned a cell mate upon arrival 20 from his Attorney visit -- 21 MR. : Yes, sir. 22 MR. : -- Reyes has to communicate 23 where - who dropped the ball, and at that 24 point? 25 MR. : Okay. I mean, for the sake EFTA00126526 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 166 1 of time, what we talked about before is, that 2 means they would notify by me that he needed a 3 cell mate? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : They knew. They knew the 6 expectation. So, that means - if you know 7 that, at 1:50 III. he wasn't coming back - that 8 means you should have got on the phone and 9 contacted the Operations Lieutenant. 10 MR. : And we discussed this. 11 And -- 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- and this is 14 MR. : Right. 15 MR. : -- this is where we 16 talked about, if they did that, they let 17 know, is the one who dropped the ball. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : The next people that 21 would have done it would have been at the 4:00 22 M., the 10:00 III. type of count. They 23 should have, then, notified the Operations 24 MR. : Yes. 25 MR. : -- Lieutenant at the same EFTA00126527 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 time. 2 MR. : Yes. 3 MR. : Correct. All right. And 4 what you're saying, though, is - I think what 5 you said, though, is during the morning shift, 6 the zero dark hundred to 8:00 III., or I think 7 it was 8:00 M., right? 8 MR. : Yes, sir. 9 MR. : It's 8:00 III.? They 10 wouldn't have known. 11 MR. : They wouldn't have known. 12 MR. : Right. Because they -- 13 MR. : They wouldn't have known. 14 MR. : -- because if the counts 15 weren't done at 4:00 III. and 10:00 III., they 16 wouldn't have necessarily known. 17 MR. : They wouldn't necessarily 18 know. 19 MR. : But what about, like, if 20 they had a conversation at 12:00 III. with the 21 Ops Lieutenant about the fact that the counts 22 are off, re-do - or was it 10:00 III.? 23 MR. : It's midnight. 24 MR. : The midnight one was the 25 one where the count is -- EFTA00126528 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 168 1 MR. : If you look at - yeah, the 2 count. 3 MR. : So, if you go 8:00, 9:00, to 4 - we're going to 08/10 now -- 5 MR. : What? 6 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:28:37). 7 MR. so, 08/10. 8 MR. : And she worked 10:00 III 9 10 MR. : At -- 11 MR. : -- and she worked from 12 4:00 III. through. 13 MR. : So, she wasn't (Indiscernible 14 *00:28:41). 15 MR. : This is it right here. 16 MR. : Oh, okay. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, this is it right hero. 19 So, we're talking about 08/10/2019, that's 20 going to be - so, this E-1 was generated at 21 003517 hours. 22 MR. : On August 10th? 23 MR. : On August 10th. And this 24 shows that there's 72 inmates in SHU. 25 MR. : Can you look at the counts EFTA00126529 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 169 1 for that day? 2 MR. : The very last page. 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Or it could be the second 5 to last. So, III assuming you're looking for 6 ZA. 7 MR. : Correct. 8 MR. : And then, if you could 9 just circle ZA, so we know what we're looking 10 at. 11 MR. : ZA. 12 MR. : What is the count on that? 13 MR. : That is - it appears - it 14 says that the count on that day was 73. 15 MR. : And that cleared count 16 was 72, correct? 17 MR. : That is correct. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you want to 19 follow up? 20 MR. : If there was a mistake with 21 the count, and the Lieutenant caught onto the 22 mistake, what was the -- 23 MR. : And the quota was the 24 protocols? 25 MR. : -- yeah. EFTA00126530 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 170 1 MR. : All right. This is what 2 happened. So, if III the Officers, I count, I 3 count the Unit, and they say 73. The Control 4 Center would have been, like, no, bad count. 5 They're not going to tell you what you counted. 6 They're going to make you count again. So, the 7 procedure is, once that bad count has been made 8 notified, the Control Center notifies the 9 Lieutenant, and the Lieutenant is supposed to 10 go up to the Unit, to observe the count. 11 MR. : All right. So -- 12 MR. : For -. 13 MR. : -- so, if the Ops 14 Lieutenant - in this case, 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : -- should have gone 17 MR. : Should have went to the 18 MR. : -- and observed. 19 MR. : -- went to SHU, to observe 20 the count. 21 MR. : So, if there is a bad 22 count, that's -- 23 MR. : That's right. 24 MR. : -- that's the protocol. 25 MR. : That's the policy. EFTA00126531 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, you go upstairs Well, 3 III sorry. That's the expectation. 4 MR. : So, expectation, not 5 policy. 6 MR. : I can't - III not going to 7 sit up here and quote policy when I don't know 8 it verbatim. 9 MR. : Absolutely. 10 MR. : But I will tell you the 11 expectation is that Supervisor - Correctional 12 Services - a Lieutenant, on an announcement of 13 a bad count will go to the area of the count, 14 and will observe the said count. 15 MR. : What if the Supervisor 16 claims that, when they called in the count, and 17 they said 73, they said, hey, we're calling in 18 73, but we know we're off by one? Does that 19 make any sense? 20 MR. : That doesn't. That means the 21 institutions count is going to be bad, which 22 MR. : And then, then that -- 23 MR. : -- that is the worst thing 24 that you can -- 25 MR. : And -. EFTA00126532 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 172 1 MR. -- besides the inmate - it's 2 three things - an inmate died, your count being 3 off, or an inmate escaping. Those are the big 4 things right there. If your count is bad - 5 because that's what we get paid to do - we're 6 the masters of count, that's what we do, 7 accountability of inmates, in a Correctional 8 setting. That's what you do. That's what 9 you're paid for. So, you call me, as a 10 Lieutenant, and you tell me, hey, LT., we keep 11 counting the unit, and the unit, and the count 12 is bad. So, the next thing III going to tell 13 you, give me some staff up there. I want a 14 standup bed book. 15 MR. : So, if they say that -- 16 MR. : -- so then, III going to 17 identify each inmate by their face, and their 18 cell assignment, to get the count. 19 MR. : So, what if they say, 20 we're off by one, but we know where that one 21 is? That one is over there. And then, the 22 Lieutenant responds -- 23 MR. : But they know 24 MR. : -- all right, going 25 to go verify where that one staff is, you redo EFTA00126533 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 173 1 the count. Would that make sense? 2 MR. : No. What III telling you is 3 when it was supposed to have been done. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Because -. 6 MR. : So, even if they said, 7 like, hey, we wrote down 73, but that - so, 8 let's say , who is not a typical SHU guy- 9 he's the one that calls this in. He says, I 10 wrote down 73 on the count slip, but that's 11 because one our guys that we're counting for is 12 over at -- 13 MR. : R&D. 14 MR. : -- let's say R&D. And -- 15 MR. : Okay. So -- 16 MR. : -- and then, the 17 Lieutenant then says, III going to go verify 18 that that person is there, you reconduct the 19 count, and create a new count slip. 20 MR. : Okay. So, it was one RA - 21 believe that's R&D. RA, I believe, is R&D. 22 Right? No. So, in R&D, there was nobody in 23 R&D. There's no one -- 24 MR. : So, what if the -. 25 MR. : -- there's no one in R&D. EFTA00126534 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 174 1 So, the policy is, the Lieutenant is on there, 2 III going to watch you do it, and so, that's 3 the second count. The third count is the 4 standing bed book count. That I used the bed 5 book cards, and I go cell by cell, and I make 6 the inmates say their name and number, and I 7 physically identify them by their face. 8 MR. : All right. 9 MR. : If that don't work, all of 10 this stuff is supposed to be annotated in the 11 log, that bad count one, bad count two, SHU 12 reports bad count three. Bed book count was 13 identified. The next thing would have been, 14 was to go back through the prior counts to see 15 of the movement, of who was in or out, because 16 if your count cleared here, at 10:00, you only 17 had one out of the unit, which was Epstein. 18 When he came back, that means your count should 19 have went from - if it was 72 here - that's 20 telling me that it must have been 71. At 21 boom. So, it was 76 22 MR. : Is that the 4:00 M. count? 23 MR. yeah. It was 76. Then, 24 at the 10:00 count, on the 9:30 count, it was 25 73. So, where did those three inmates go? EFTA00126535 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 175 1 Where did those inmates go? So, somebody was in 2 there messing with the numbers in order for the 3 count to clear. 4 MR. : In order to find out 5 where they went is it, we have to go into 6 TRUSCOPE (Phonetic Sp. *00:34:52)? Is that 7 where we would have to find -- 8 MR. : You would - you could go in 9 the TRU - most - Sentry is supposed to be full- 10 proof, all-proof. 11 MR. : Okay. So, Sentry. 12 MR. : But it's only as good as the 13 people that's putting the information in there. 14 MR. : Sure. Sure. 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : And are the SHU the 17 people that are putting the information in, or 18 is it the Control Center? 19 MR. : So, this is what happens. In 20 theory, you've got - when inmates come back 21 from court, and they do the transfer orders, 22 and it goes down to Control, R&D is supposed to 23 update those inmates coming back in. Control 24 Center gets the transfer order, and they're 25 verifying. Any time any internal movement is EFTA00126536 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 176 1 done inside of a unit, like SHU, the OIC is 2 supposed to do it. If a Case Manager and Unit 3 Manager, or a Counselor, moves the inmate on 4 the unit, guess what? They're supposed to make 5 that Sentry - (Indiscernible *00:35:49) PP-34 6 transaction in Sentry to make the appropriate 7 move. 8 MR. : So, looking at these, do 9 you believe that they're all -- 10 MR. : These all bad. 11 MR. : -- they're all bad? 12 MR. Mm-hmm. All. 13 MR. : All of them? 14 MR. : They're all bad. All bogus. 15 MR. : All right. So, 4:00 III 16 through -. 17 MR. : The Control Center, R&D. 18 It's bad. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Just a clarifying question. 21 Can a person do a count - let's just say they 22 know someone is in a different unit - can they 23 say, oh, I know the person is out of the unit, 24 and III going to count them as part of my unit, 25 and just give the count number. Are they EFTA00126537 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1-- 1 allowed to do that, or 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : -- do they have to physically 4 have to get eyes on them? 5 MR. : So, it's only - who - the 6 amount of inmates that are in their unit at 7 that time. 8 MR. : Correct. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : That's it. 11 MR. : All right. Let's keep 12 going on this. Thank you for that. That's 13 hugely helpful. So, "Inmates' cell mates are 14 moved for various reasons, including but not 15 limited to an incident in the cell, visits to 16 court, legal library, medical, and recreation. 17 On Friday, August 9, 2019, Epstein's cell mate, 18 Reyes, had court. It would not be uncommon for 19 Reyes to be out of his cell for an extended 20 period. Epstein had an Attorney session that 21 day. Epstein's Attorney was processed into the 22 facility in the morning, and Epstein was 23 brought down to the Attorney room." And you 24 said that that was pretty much seven days a 25 week? With Epstein. was not notified EFTA00126538 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 178 1 that Reyes was released from court." And 2 again, on that note, would have been the Ops 3 Lieutenant that would have been responsible to 4 tell you, for instance -- 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : -- if someone heard 7 MR. : If you would recall, he 8 should have - because he know the - he knew the 9 expectation. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : So, by our previous 12 conversation, they knew the expectation. But 13 again, they chose not to follow the playbook. 14 MR. : Okay. "Typically, if an 15 inmate is likely to be discharged or 16 transferred following court, their property was 17 retrieved from their cell, boxed and secured 18 with a property form, by receiving and 19 discharged staff. All items are normally 20 accounted for, and inventoried. In order to 21 enter the SHU, all staff not assigned there 22 must identify themselves and sign a logbook, 23 and then be physically escorted by a 24 Correctional Officer. Alternatively, the staff 25 can pick up inmate property at the Unit door. EFTA00126539 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 179 1 A Correctional Officer assigned to the SHU 2 would have been aware that Reyes' - or any 3 inmates - belongings were removed. At this 4 time, the Correctional Officer should notify a 5 Lieutenant, who would in turn brief 6 was not notified that Reyes' belongings 7 were removed. advised that if he had 8 known that Epstein was without a cell mate, he 9 would have likely put Epstein on psychological 10 observation." But now you're saying you 11 probably would have put him off -- 12 MR. : I would have not put him on 13 psych obs, because I can't. 14 MR. : Right. You would have 15 put him in Fox -? 16 MR. : I would have probably put him 17 - if he was already - if I would have known, 18 between those hours of 1:50 to 4:00, I would 19 say, keep him in the Attorney conference, 20 because guess what? I've got a staff member 21 right there. And where he was, there's a room 22 here, so we normally kept him in these first 23 two rooms. So, you could see him. So, I would 24 just say, hey, just have somebody stay there, 25 and I would have hired somebody. I would have EFTA00126540 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 180 1 hired anybody. I'll pay you overtime to sit on 2 this guy until I got him - I would have kept 3 him in Attorney conference, right there - until 4 I got him a cell mate. I wouldn't have had to 5 put him on psych - you're not - that's not - I 6 apologize - I can't do that. 7 MR. : All right. So, this line 8 where you said you would have likely put him -- 9 MR. : No. 10 MR. : -- that's not correct? 11 MR. : No, I wouldn't have done 12 that. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : That's - because like I said 15 in my earlier statement - if it would have been 16 after the hours of operation, let's say 17 everybody - at 8:00, when he went back to the 18 cell in SHU, and because I was still there, I 19 would have said, no, put him in R&D. Because I 20 got R&D staff there until 10:00 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : I would have called the AW. 23 I would have called the Warden. And 24 unfortunately, we would have the - somebody 25 would have to come in - and we would have been EFTA00126541 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 181 1 there later than vetting a cell mate for him. 2 MR. : Right. And it says, 3 n is not aware of any Lieutenants knowing 4 that Reyes' property was moved." 5 MR. : We didn't know. 6 MR. : Okay. Well, that you 7 know of. may have. 8 MR. : He may have. 9 MR. : But he didn't tell you. 10 MR. : Of course. 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : He didn't tell me. 13 MR. "On Saturday, August 10, 14 2019, received a phone call from 15 Lieutenant around 7:00 III.,, 16 MR. : No, that's not accurate. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : I received the phone call 19 from Lieutenant , I believe it was between 20 the hours - approximately - 6:35, between 6:35 21 and 6:45-50. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : Somewhere in there. 24 MR. : "And was told that 25 Epstein was found unresponsive in his cell." EFTA00126542 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 182 1 But it was who called you? 2 MR. : Yes, it was. 3 MR. : Okay. inquired 4 about Epstein's cell mate, and was surprised to 5 hear respond that Epstein did not a cell 6 mate." 7 MR. : That is correct. 8 MR. : So, you immediately said, 9 where is the cell mate? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Okay. Yeah. Now, this 12 is, again, where III getting confused because 13 in the report, they - again - say, " 14 worked a 4:00 III. to 10:00 shift on 15 August 9, 2019 -- 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : -- and you're saying 18 that's not right? 19 MR. : No. He would have worked 20 2:00 to 10:00. 21 MR. : And did he work on August 22 9th, 2:00 to 10:00? 23 MR. : August 9th, on -- 24 MR. : I thought we 25 MR. : -- Right here? EFTA00126543 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 183 1 MR. : I thought we said on 2 August 9th, he didn't work. 3 MR. : He wasn't there. On August 4 9th, he wasn't there. 5 MR. : All right. 6 MR. : So, it's supposedly -- 7 MR. : So, from 4:00 8 10:00 M., who was there? 9 MR. : Yeah. But, like, this thing, 10 like, when saying he's non-custody, 11 because you can see these rosters -- 12 MR. : So, was - so, the 13 two - and the Activities Lieutenant was 14 correct? 15 MR. : See, let me - can I school 16 you on something? 17 MR. : Absolutely. Please. 18 MR. : Let me just school you on 19 something. 20 MR. : Please. That's why we're 21 here. 22 MR. : These rosters, you see when 23 you printed this roster? You printed this 24 roster here. That says, 06/02/2021. That's 25 this year. I can guarantee you the roster EFTA00126544 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 184 1 don't look like this back on the day the roster 2 was printed, initially inputted. 3 MR. : So, someone would have 4 changed it? 5 MR. : Somebody went in here and 6 changed it. 7 MR. : But does that mean that - 8 9 MR. : And I can tell you -- 10 MR. : -- this is inaccurate, or 11 the other was inaccurate? 12 MR. : -- this is inaccurate. I can 13 tell you why because one, this is how 14 - because I was, like, , non-custody? 15 Why would he make sure that said non-custody? 16 Now, , I temp prompted him to 11. I 17 temp promote him to 11. 18 MR. : Can you circle that? 19 MR. : Because he couldn't have been 20 in the institution by himself. 21 MR. : So, you think that he 22 went in there and put in that (Indiscernible 23 *00:42:09)? 24 MR. : III not going to say that. 25 MR. : But that's not what -- EFTA00126545 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 185 1 MR. : But what I will -- 2 MR. : -- what it normally would 3 say? 4 MR. : No. Because he become non- 5 custody until, I think it was when he got out 6 of non-custody and became a Counselor, I 7 believe that wasn't until 2020. Not 2020. I 8 think it was the last part of '19, going into 9 '20, or something like that. He was still on 10 Correctional Services. But the thing about 11 this roster, all of these pages right here, any 12 time you make a change, it tells you the date 13 and time of the change. So, let's go here. 14 Time change. Activities Lieutenant R. 15 That was done on 08/09, C.P., who - you've got 16 to find out who C.P. was. 17 MR. : But 08/09. That was 18 prior to the incident. 19 MR. : 08/09, 09. 08/09. That was 20 done in 9:09 III. 21 MR. : (Indiscernible 22 *00:43:13). 23 MR. : The Ops Lieutenant. It was 24 . So, took sick leave on that 25 day, and -- EFTA00126546 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 186 1 MR. : So, was sick 2 leave. 3 MR. changed him 4 on the roster on 08/09, at 8:58 III., on 5 Friday, August 9. was relieving an 6 Officer on 08/09, 09, but as you see, where you 7 see III. at? 8 MR. : What are we looking for? 9 MR. -: III. Non-custody. It's not 10 there. 11 MR. : Oh, and it would have. 12 So, somebody went in, at some point, and put 13 and if he put non-custody, was that somebody 14 trying to cover up, like, hey, I had nothing to 15 do with that? 16 MR. : I wasn't in custody at that 17 time. He put me in there because, you know, 18 why would I do that? You're a Lieutenant. 19 MR. : So, it's somebody trying 20 to say, like, hey 21 MR. : I don't know. I got 22 MR. : I got -. 23 MR. : I would have to -- 24 MR. : Look into it. 25 MR. : -- go through it. EFTA00126547 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 187 1 MR. : But that's something that 2 we should address with 3 MR. : That's something you've got 4 to do, from the time you printed one - look, 5 when you printed one of these rosters, right? I 6 can guarantee you, if you go back to the 583 7 packet, and print out the roster for 08/09 and 8 08/10 of 2019, it's not going to mirror the 9 same. It's going to be changed. It's not 10 going to be the same. 11 MR. : And do we have the 12 ability to do that? 13 MR. : Sure. 14 MR. : To go -. 15 MR. : It should be in the 583. 16 MR. : So, we -- 17 MR. : The 583 for the incident 18 MR. : Yup. 19 MR. : -- that occurred? 20 MR. : Mm-hmm. 21 MR. : You understand? 22 MR. : And that will have that 23 roster in there? 24 MR. : For Jeffrey -- 25 MR. : Yup. EFTA00126548 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 188 1 MR. : -- Epstein's -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. incident. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Those two copies of that 6 roster should be in there. 7 MR. : Okay. Good point. We'll 8 go back and look at that. 9 MR. : But you printed a couple 10 weeks ago, it's not going to say the - it 11 should. 12 MR. : So, up to - so, just to 13 clarify - up to 08/09 that morning, at 8:58 14 III., before that time, it was 15 schedule? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : That means he called in and 18 - C.P. - at 8:58 III. on 19 August 9th, changed it over to 20 MR. : Correct. 21 MR. : So, I wonder why - okay. 22 All right. So, that is inaccurate. 23 MR. : One more question. Sorry. 24 MR. : So, go ahead. 25 MR. : That C.P., can anyone enter EFTA00126549 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 189 1 C.P., or it's what it was in the system? 2 MR. : And we did know that. 3 This is on this. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : Okay. Anyone enter C.P., or 7 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. -- or is it -? 10 MR. : Because when you log-in the 11 roster program -- 12 MR. : Okay. It's a system. 13 MR. : -- it's done by your Ply card 14 number. 15 MR. : Okay. No problem. That's 16 it. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Thank you. 19 MR. : All right. And it says 20 that, Lieutenant is the one who did 21 the 10:00 III. to 6:00 III. shift. 22 MR. : Correct. 23 MR. : It says, " did not 24 personally tell that Epstein required 25 a cell mate at all times. He believed she was EFTA00126550 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 190 1 aware because he had informed his Lieutenants 2 repeatedly, and instructed them to pass this 3 message along, and convey the information among 4 themselves." Is that correct? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : did not hold a 7 formal all Lieutenants meeting regarding 8 Epstein, or send an all staff e-mail with the 9 Warden's directive." 10 MR. : Mm-hmm. 11 MR. : However, you did send 12 emails with regard to -- 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : -- the way that they were 15 supposed to act, and their duties and 16 responsibilities. 17 MR. : Correct. 18 MR. : And you'll send me that? 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : Okay. "He verbally 21 instructed his Lieutenants on an informal and 22 individual basis, as many as possible with whom 23 he had the opportunity. On Saturday morning, 24 August 10, 2019, was relived early by 25 ." Now, as far as goes - EFTA00126551 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 191 1 - her claiming she didn't - if 2 she's claiming she didn't know, and if you 3 didn't specifically tell her, who should have 4 told her? Or how should have she known? 5 MR. : How she would have known is, 6 is that, when she did rounds, she would have 7 saw those cards. 8 MR. : No, no, no. Okay. So -- 9 MR. : She would have known that 10 these inmates are high visibility. And the 11 guidance was already out, so, it was 12 disseminating throughout the Unit. So, the 13 staff was aware. So, of course, probably in, 14 you know, with her, we didn't have a good 15 relationship, but regardless of the fact is, is 16 that I made the Lieutenants aware of my 17 expectations. 18 MR. : Mm-hmm. 19 MR. : So, even though I might not 20 have told her because she worked the morning 21 watch shift, and by 6:00, she would be gone. 22 wouldn't see her. 23 MR. : Now, was that abnormal 24 for her to leave before 6:00, before her shift 25 is done? EFTA00126552 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 192 1 MR. : They was working 10:00 to 2 6:00. 3 MR. : Yup. 4 MR. : So, by the time I walked in 5 the door, she would be gone. 6 MR. : But what III saying is, 7 if she's leaving before 6:00, is that -? 8 MR. : Now, before 6:00, that would 9 be a problem. 10 MR. : So, even, like, ten 11 minutes before, is that a problem? 12 MR. : Not really. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : Not really. Because if the 15 relieving person gets there, because knowing 16 the Lieutenants, some Lieutenants come an hour 17 early. Some Lieutenants come ten, 15 minutes 18 early. It's just whatever -- 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : -- happens. Sometimes the 21 Lieutenant has to work late, because they have 22 an incident, or they have administrative duties 23 they have to finish after their shift, which is 24 fine, but they are compensated for that. 25 MR. : Right. Okay. "In the EFTA00126553 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 193 1 SHU, 30-minute rounds need to be completed 2 consistently, at non-uniform intervals, within 3 a 40-minute timeframe. The purpose of these 4 rounds is to ensure that good order is being 5 maintained, there is no suspicious activity, 6 and all inmates are accounted for and 7 responsive. 30-minute rounds are documenting 8 in TRUSCOPE, which serves as an electronic 9 logbook. After a round is physically done, the 10 Correctional Officer can log into TRUSCOPE and 11 press a button, certifying that the round was 12 completed. Unfortunately, sometimes Officers 13 do not complete a 30-minute round or exceed the 14 40-minute threshold. TRUSCOPE also documents 15 from what location, terminal the rounds are 16 logged." 17 MR. : That's right. 18 MR. • ` is aware of at 19 least two terminals located in the SHU. The 20 only way to determine if a 30-minute round was 21 physically completed is to check the video 22 surveillance footage." 23 MR. : That is correct. 24 MR. : "There are two 25 Correctional Officers assigned to the SHU on EFTA00126554 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 194 1 morning watch, at midnight. SHU One and SHU 2 Two. SHU Two is responsible for completing 3 rounds." They're both technically responsible. 4 Correct? 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : And so, is the SHU Two 7 usually the Officer-in-Charge? 8 MR. : Right. So, basically what 9 would have happened is, they're supposed to, 10 you know, because one has the key. So, I do a 11 round, I come back, then you do a round. Same 12 thing when they do the count. 13 MR. : Now, is it the same thing 14 with counts and rounds, like -- 15 MR. : No, no, III sorry, with the 16 count. 17 MR. : -- so, with a round, if 18 rounds aren't being conducted, does that also 19 mean that everybody in the Unit is to blame? 20 Not just -- 21 MR. : Yes. 22 MR. : -- okay. 23 MR. : Right, because 24 MR. : So, it would be -- 25 MR. : -- because it, in essence, EFTA00126555 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 195 1 afterhours, that Lieutenant should go up there 2 and observe the count. 3 MR. : No, but what III saying 4 is, like, if a round is signed off on, by one 5 person, but everybody in the Unit, nobody in 6 the Unit did it, and not just the person who 7 signed the round, but also everyone else is 8 also responsible for that falsified round? 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Everybody -- 12 MR. : It's the same thing for 13 counts? 14 MR. : -- yeah, it don't matter. If 15 you're on the roster, and you're assigned to 16 that Unit, and a falsified document goes up, 17 and you said, like, me and you count, I know we 18 didn't count, but I sign that, and you sign it 19 20 MR. : No, what III saying is 21 MR. then we both -- 22 MR. : -- what III saying is, if 23 you sign it, I don't sign it, but we're both 24 responsible? 25 MR. : Right. No. You're going to EFTA00126556 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 196 1 be responsible because you didn't sign it. But 2 if I said, if I didn't sign it, then III going 3 to tell you why. I said, we didn't do the 4 count. III going to put a memo in. 5 MR. : So, what III 6 MR. _: III going to let the 7 Lieutenant know. It's a big -- 8 MR. : -- so -. 9 MR. : -- that's going to be a big 10 situation. 11 MR. : I guess what III saying 12 is, like, all right, so, in these count slips 13 specifically., there's two -- 14 MR. : Two signatures. 15 MR. : -- two signatures. 16 MR. : Correct. 17 MR. : But there's four people 18 working. 19 MR. : Right. So, whoever -- 20 MR. : So, are the other two 21 people that aren't working, if they didn't 22 report it 23 MR. : Right. 24 MR. : -- they're also 25 responsible? EFTA00126557 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Yes. 2 MR. : All right. Okay. 3 MR. : And then, on the morning 4 watch, there's only two people in the unit. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : So, they're both complicit. 7 MR. : And I know you said bad 8 count, Officer should come down. How often 9 should - I mean, a Lieutenant should come down 10 - how often should Lieutenants be observing 11 counts? 12 MR. : Okay. Okay. 13 MR. : In the SHU. Let's talk 14 about specifically for the SHU. 15 MR. : Well, in the SHU? In the SHU, 16 a Lieutenant should have been monitoring that - 17 I believe that Ten South count. 18 MR. : Ten South. What about, 19 like, where Epstein was, in regular SHU? 20 MR. : Well, no, but we didn't 21 implement that until after the Epstein 22 incident. 23 MR. : All right. So, up to 24 August 10th, Lieutenants were not observing 25 counts EFTA00126558 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 198 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : -- they were simply 3 taking the count 4 MR. : Counting in Control. 5 MR. : -- in the Control Room. 6 Okay. 7 MR. : That is Control. That is 8 correct. 9 MR. : Okay. was aware 10 that the camera system in the SHU was down. He 11 left early on Thursday, when the discussion 12 about the camera system would have occurred. 13 Mr. Daniels -", what is Mr. first 14 name? 15 MR. : I can't remember his first 16 name. 17 MR. : Now, is he, like, a C.O., 18 though? Or, like -- 19 MR. : No. He would be -- 20 MR. : -- a BOP employee? 21 MR. : -- he's COMTECH (Phonetic Sp. 22 *00:52:39). 23 MR. : COMTECH, but a BOP 24 employee? 25 MR. : Yes. EFTA00126559 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 199 1 MR. : "The camera technician 2 notified that he was working on the 3 system earlier that week, but did not 4 know specifics and was not informed that the 5 cameras were not functioning. Since the -", 6 so, you didn't know that any of the TRU cameras 7 may have been out? 8 MR. : No. 9 MR. : Okay. "Since the -", and 10 who would have been - was he the one 11 responsible for that? 12 MR. : Yes. So -. 13 MR. : So, if he's notified that 14 the camera is now out, how soon thereafter 15 should he get that up and running? 16 MR. : No. If he was aware that the 17 camera system was down and was not working, he 18 should have contacted me, and then, I would 19 immediately contact the AW and the Warden 20 because -- 21 MR. : And in this instance -- 22 MR. : -- that's a Security 23 situation. 24 MR. : -- so, in this instance, 25 he didn't do that? EFTA00126560 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 200 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : All right. And would 3 anyone else have known that a SHU camera was 4 down? 5 MR. • (Phonetic Sp. 6 *00:53:26). 7 MR. ? And who is 8 9 MR. : He would be the General 10 Foreman. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : Over Facilities. 13 MR. : So, those two people 14 would have been the ones that knew this camera 15 is out, and they should have notified you? 16 MR. : Yeah. 17 MR. : And they did not? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : Okay. Do you know, az 20 this point - and III not talking about at the 21 time, but now - do you know what was down and 22 for how long? 23 MR. : I don't know. 24 MR. : No? Okay. 25 MR. : I can't remember. I don't EFTA00126561 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 201 1 even - that's - I don't remember. 2 MR. : Do you know if a camera 3 in the SHU was ever down? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MR. : Okay. What camera? 6 MR. : I know that there were issues 7 with the cameras because we had done a program 8 review before then, and there was cameras down 9 in Ten South. So, we had got those fixed. You 10 know, in the -- 11 MR. : Mm-hmm. 12 MR. : -- in the individual cells. 13 MR. : Yup. 14 MR. : And then, there was a camera 15 system that was down because I believe they was 16 doing some type of maintenance on the ranges, 17 or something like that, that everyone was aware 18 of. That's all I can remember. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And I don't remember 21 specifics and timeframes, but -. 22 MR. : All right. But you don't 23 know specifically if, like, for instance, the 24 range that Epstein was on, that camera was out 25 or not? EFTA00126562 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 202 1 MR. : That, I don't know that for - 2 - 3 MR. : You're not sure? 4 MR. : -- yeah, no. 5 MR. : Okay. But again, if it 6 was, it would have been Daniels and - what did 7 you say the last name was? ? 8 MR. •. . 9 MR. : And how do you spell that 10 last name? 11 MR. •. i_ . 12 MR. : Can you say that one more 13 time? 14 MR. : ,- -. 15 MR. : Perfect. 16 MR. •. . 17 MR. : Okay. Thank you. 18 MR. : Just had a quick question. 19 Who was that conversation about, the 20 discussion? You mentioned there was a 21 discussion -- 22 MR. : Mr. Daniels. 23 MR. : no, you -- 24 MR. : You say -. 25 MR. : -- when that discussion would EFTA00126563 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 have happened. 2 MR. : Oh. 3 MR. : Right? I think that's the 4 date of (Indiscernible *00:55:07). 5 MR. : Well, no, it says, "Mr. 6 Daniels, the Camera Technician, notified 7 that he was working on the system earlier that 8 week." He's saying that he left early 9 Thursday, when the discussion about the camera 10 system would have occurred. 11 MR. : Would have. So, he should 12 known -- 13 MR. : If there was a 14 conversation. But you don't know that there 15 was? 16 MR. : No. 17 MR. : Okay. Sorry. 18 MR. : Because, like, in close out, 19 or if there was something with the Warden that 20 day, normally on Thursdays, at times, you know, 21 it was for my - I have a disease. So, I would 22 go for blood work on Thursdays, when I could, 23 if an institution emergency, you know, but 24 normally, on Thursday, I would leave early on 25 Thursdays. I would take a half a day. EFTA00126564 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 204 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : To go to my medical 3 appointments. So, if there was a meeting that 4 was convened about the camera systems, I wasn't 5 present at that meeting. 6 MR. : But whatever 7 MR. : However, I know that a camera 8 project was going on during that time, which 9 Mr. Daniels was responsible for installing the 10 new - I don't know what - I can't remembering 11 what you call it - but it's a system, because 12 our system was antiquated, so they was doing 13 camera repairs. So -- 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : -- there was certain cameras 16 down, in certain areas of the institution. But 17 he was actively working on that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So. 20 MR. : So, if there was a 21 meeting, that you are not aware of, on 22 Thursday, who would have been present for ltf 23 MR. : For a meeting with the 24 Warden? 25 MR. : It would have been with EFTA00126565 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 205 1 the Warden? 2 MR. : Yeah. It would have been - I 3 mean, the Warden would have known if someone 4 had a meeting about the camera system being 5 down, and then, probably the Facilities 6 Manager, which is It would have been 7 the AW of Custody, at that time, which would 8 have been Ms. . And of course, it 9 would have been the Warden. 10 MR. : Didn't you say it was 11 actually somebody else? was no 12 longer the custody? 13 MR. : Ms. Ms. was 14 there, but she had just got there. So -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. -- she was over another 17 discipline. So, that would have been the 18 meeting with the executive staff. 19 MR. : Okay. So, it was the 20 executive staff meeting. Would that meeting 21 also have taken place if the cameras are still 22 down on Friday? Would it have taken place on 23 Friday, as well? 24 MR. : That would have been Friday, 25 as well. EFTA00126566 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 206 1 MR. : But you weren't involved 2 with a meeting like that? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : And you don't know of a 5 meeting taking place? 6 MR. : No. 7 MR. : Okay. Would it have 8 taken place every day that the camera was down, 9 or just the first day? 10 MR. : There would have been an 11 update because the person that falls under 12 that, the contact, is . So, the AW over 13 Facilities would have wanted an update, weekly 14 report, as well as the Captain. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Because that's a Security 17 issue. So, we would have wanted - but the 18 camera system was down because of - I think it 19 was some routine maintenance that they was 20 doing anyway. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : So -. 23 MR. : Now, would any 24 Lieutenants or SHU staff have known that the 25 camera was down? EFTA00126567 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 207 1 MR. : Some - I mean, they don't 2 have the ability to monitor. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : But, you know, of course, the 5 ones in Ten South, you know -- 6 MR. : Yeah, where they are live 7 monitoring. 8 MR. : Yeah. The live monitoring. 9 So, of course. 10 MR. : And do you know - and you 11 don't know, though, even to this date, if a 12 camera was, in fact, down? 13 MR. : I can't remember. 14 MR. : In fact? 15 MR. : I don't know. 16 MR. : Okay. No. That's fine. 17 I was just going to ask, even if it wasn't 18 recording, do you know if it was, like, being a 19 live monitor, or anything like that -- 20 MR. : Right. 21 MR. : -- or it could have been. 22 MR. : Yeah. 23 MR. : But you're unaware? 24 MR. : III unaware. 25 MR. : Okay. Okay. So, "After EFTA00126568 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 208 1 receiving the phone call from on the 2 morning of Saturday, August 10, 2019, 3 notified Associate Warden, , who 4 informed the Warden. also attempted to 5 call Institution Duty Officer, 6 7 MR. Yup. 8 MR. : To Chaplin, and in the 9 building, to get more information." What does 10 that mean by, "In the building"? Do you know? 11 MR. : So, basically, you know, it 12 was just -- 13 MR. : Like, the main number? 14 MR. : -- it was just a bunch of, 15 you know, people that we tried to notify, 16 tried to notify. So, I think I notified Ms. 17 of course. She notifies the 18 Warden. I notified the IDO. I said, hey, 19 because inmate death, they needed me coming 20 into the institution, because that's one of 21 their off times, so they needed to be making a 22 - because they're going to be responsible for 23 making certain calls to the Region. I notified 24 the Chaplin, because Chaplin made sure, 25 (Indiscernible *00:59:19) also, I believe EFTA00126569 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 209 1 informed them to call Mr. Plord (Phonetic Sp. 2 *00:59:25), which was the Executive Assistant. 3 I think Mr. Plord or I may have called Mr. 4 Johnson, the Attorney, for MCC. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : And III trying to think who 7 else. 8 MR. : No, that's fine. 9 MR. : Was there. 10 MR. : And it says that, 11 went to the MCC, arriving before 8:00 III. 12 approximately." 13 MR. : Mm-hmm. 14 MR. : "Upon arrival, 15 screened in and retrieved his gear from the 16 third floor. He went to the SHU and signed the 17 logbook. He gathered any records pertaining to 18 Epstein, including the 30-minute round logbook, 19 the Attorney conference logbook, count slips, 20 and E-ls." What are E-ls? 21 MR. : So, all this stuff right 22 here. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : So, you basically, I walk 25 through the building, I know the protocol, EFTA00126570 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 210 1 because what happens is, these things will come 2 up missing, then you have no evidence. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So, I secured count slips, 5 the E-ls. I went to SHU. I got all of the 6 logbooks that I knew where Epstein had been. 7 grabbed those logbooks. I went to SHU. I took 8 his inmate SHU file from the Special Housing, 9 plus all of the round sheets (Indiscernible 10 *01:00:34). 11 MR. : This actually says "He 12 could not locate Epstein's inmate file." Do 13 you remember that? 14 MR. : It was a file, but it had 15 limited stuff in there. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : So, his actual file, yeah, is 18 had his picture, had a couple things on there, 19 but it wasn't anything in it. 20 MR. : So, when this says, "Not 21 locate a file," you located the file, it was 22 just a -- 23 MR. : It was empty. 24 MR. : -- it was empty. And is 25 that abnormal? EFTA00126571 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. It is not normal. 2 MR. : Oh, it's not normal? 3 MR. : It's not normal. No. 4 MR. : And do you think that 5 somebody removed things from it? 6 MR. No, III not going to make 7 that accusation. I don't know. I would just 8 say, that's not a normal instances, that being 9 working as a former OIC, being a Correctional 10 Officer, and all of that stuff, that's not 11 normal. 12 MR. : What stuff is usually in 13 there? 14 MR. : I can tell you, it would be 15 his - all of the intake screening stuff that we 16 do on the inmates, the expectations, the cell 17 assignment things that the inmate is supposed 18 to sign, the clothing issue forms. It would be 19 292s in there. It would be a - the SROs. It 20 would also be the Psychology, where Psychology 21 comes to see these guys, that those notes 22 should be placed in there. 23 MR. : And none of that was In 24 there? 25 MR. : None of that was in there. EFTA00126572 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 212 1 MR. : And where is that file 2 located? 3 MR. : It's supposed to be located 4 in the OIC, right there -- 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. -- in the OIC. 7 MR. : When you say "The OIC," 8 is that the SHU, where the OIC sits? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : And so, anyone could have 11 had access to that? 12 MR. : Yes. 13 MR. : And had you ever seen the 14 file before that time? 15 MR. : I would - no. 16 MR. : Did you ever locate it 17 after that time? 18 MR. : No. 19 MR. : So, it's likely that 20 someone took documents out? If they should have 21 been in there and they're not in there, is that 22 23 MR. : Correct. 24 MR. : -- so, someone likely - 25 III not saying -- EFTA00126573 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 213 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : -- who did it, but 3 someone likely did? 4 MR. : In my belief, yes, those 5 documents were purposefully taken. 6 MR. : And can you think of a 7 reason why they would have been taken? 8 MR. : I don't know, sir. 9 MR. : All right. But you had 10 never seen them before? 11 MR. : No, sir. That was -- 12 MR. : And who would be the 13 MR. -- that wouldn't be my 14 purview to go through, to audit those files. 15 MR. : Who would be -- 16 MR. : That's the -. 17 MR. : -- the person to ask 18 about that? 19 MR. : That would have been the 20 Lieutenant. 21 MR. : So, Lieutenant 22 MR. : Lieutenant . Or the 23 Lieutenant -- 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : -- he would have been the one EFTA00126574 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 214 1 that would have audited those files. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Because they do the SROs. 4 MR. : And did you ask him where 5 the file was? 6 MR. : Of course. I called him. 7 MR. : And what did he say? 8 MR. : He didn't know. He had no 9 knowledge. 10 MR. : All right. So, he 11 claimed he doesn't know 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. : -- anything about it. 14 MR. : Because -. 15 MR. : Did he ever say he looked 16 at the file before? 17 MR. : No. No. I don't remember 18 him saying that. But when I called him that 19 Saturday, because I had conversations with 20 Lieutenant on that Saturday and that 21 Sunday, because he was supposed to come to work 22 that Sunday. So, once he found out about the 23 situation with Epstein, because I had called 24 him, and I said, hey, man, where is his inmate 25 file? What are you talking about? I said, his EFTA00126575 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 215 1 SHU file is not up there. X, Y, Z. So, I 2 informed him of what happened. Sunday, I get a 3 call that he broke his leg. And then, 4 Lieutenant was out for, like, six months. 5 MR. : And did he really break 6 his leg? 7 MR. : I wouldn't know. 8 MR. : Is there any reason to 9 believe, or had you heard that he actually 10 didn't? 11 MR. : Again, he was supposed to be 12 in that training, like I said, right? That - 13 what do you call it? 14 MR. : I can look it up. 15 MR. when you go for reserves 16 training. 17 MR. : Oh, yeah. 18 MR. : What you do -- 19 MR. : Correct. 20 MR. you do it every month. 21 MR. : Yup. He was in military 22 23 MR. : Right? 24 MR. : training. 25 MR. : Because of his military EFTA00126576 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 216 1 2 3 4 5 6 training. So, he tells me they're doing the PT that next day, which was Sunday, he broke his leg. MR. kind of -- MR. : Did he ever provide any : Or he injured his leg. 7 MR. : -- did he ever provide 8 any documentation? 9 MR. : Hmm-mm. 10 MR. : No? 11 MR. Hmm. He did provide 12 something, but it was from a . I mean, 13 and that was sent through - he provided 14 documentation, but -- 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. -- I can't - I don't - III 17 not a - so, I can't tell you what it is, 18 and III not going to call the to verify 19 if that was the situation, but basically, it 20 said that he had a substantial leg injury that 21 prevented him from coming to work. 22 MR. : So, have you had any 23 conversations with him since? 24 MR. : Oh, he came back - so then, 25 so went out in August - September, EFTA00126577 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 217 1 October, November, December - I think he came 2 back either December or January. 3 MR. : Of 2019? 4 MR. : Of 2020. 5 MR. : Or 2020. 6 MR. : Of 2020. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : Somewhere in that timeframe. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, he came back. And he 11 went back up to SHU as the OIC. 12 MR. : And ever any 13 conversations about this matter? 14 MR. : I had discussed it with him 15 on the phone twice. 16 MR. : And tell me about those 17 discussions. 18 MR. : Those discussion. So, 19 basically, I asked him about the inmate file. 20 I had talked to him about, that Sunday, he 21 alerted me that he was injured. When he came 22 back, we had discussions that the staff, when 23 he would - me and were - I go - I would 24 say out of all the Lieutenants - me and 25 we spoke a lot. I thought very highly of him. EFTA00126578 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 218 1 And he would talk, and he was saying that he 2 was having difficulties with the staff, and his 3 other peers, because he, you know, the 4 appearance was that he faked the injury, and -- 5 MR. : Oh, so there was rumor 6 MR. : -- and not to be a part of 7 what everybody else was going through, during 8 that Epstein situation. So, he was getting it 9 from the Lieutenants, and he was also getting 10 it from the line staff. 11 MR. : Okay. So, on him, is 12 there anything that you know - I know he wasn't 13 there those days - but if there's anything 14 there that he did wrong? 15 MR. Hmm. What - being 16 wrong, III not going to say he did something 17 wrong or purposeful, you know, to say that, you 18 know, to cause the death of inmate Epstein. Of 19 course not. III not going to say that. 20 MR. : Yeah, and III not saying 21 that. III just saying -- 22 MR. But III saying -- 23 MR. : -- it's, like 24 MR. : -- this is, in my opinion, if 25 III a third party, if III a third party - and EFTA00126579 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 219 1 III going to be honest - if III a third party, 2 looking at this, somebody would say, III wrong. 3 They would say, you failed to supervise your 4 staff. You should have been auditing all of 5 the paperwork. You should have been more 6 responsive, or you should have been more 7 responsible, and been in the unit more. You 8 should have done more rounds. You should have 9 did more training. You understand what III 10 saying? 11 MR. : Sure. 12 MR. : But guess what? That's not my 13 purview. As the Captain, Security, I did this, 14 this, that, and the third. But everybody has a 15 job to do in a prison. 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : The Officers have a job, to 18 count, maintain accountability, for the inmate 19 population. The Lieutenants all oversee the 20 staff, and make sure they're doing their jobs 21 right. And then, ultimately, me as the 22 Captain, over the Lieutenants, I have to 23 reassure that they're doing their jobs right. 24 But when you go back and you start going 25 through fine tooth combingthrough documents EFTA00126580 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 220 1 that you thinking that, you know, your staff 2 are doing the right thing, and now you finding 3 out that people are fudging documents, and 4 creating documents that - or counting inmates 5 that wasn't in the institution. 6 MR. : Well, in this instance, 7 it sounds like somebody removed -- 8 MR. : And removed -- 9 MR. : -- files. 10 MR. -- for doing all of these 11 things that, after the fact, you're, like, I 12 can't believe this is happening. 13 MR. : So, if someone removed 14 files, though, III assuming if they're trying 15 to cover something up, it would have happened 16 on, like, the 10th, the 9th or the 10th. 17 MR. : It would have b been -- 18 MR. : Correct? 19 MR. : -- the 10th, as soon as they 20 found out he passed away. 21 MR. : And well, did a lot of 22 people have access to that room, at that time? 23 MR. : It was - at that time - it 24 would have been - and it's not a room. You're 25 talking about for EFTA00126581 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 221 1 MR. : Wherever these -- 2 MR. : -- Epstein? 3 MR. : -- wherever this file was 4 located. 5 MR. : That file. It's, like -- 6 MR. : (Indiscernible 7 *01:08:42). 8 MR. : -- when you come into the 9 unit, you walk into the unit. 10 MR. : All right. This is a 11 good transition. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. : I believe that this is a 14 map of the SHU. 15 MR. : Right. 16 MR. : Can you tell me what 17 we're looking at here? Where are the staff 18 located, and where would this file be? And 19 then, where would Epstein's cell be, if you 20 know? My understanding is that his cell was the 21 closest to them, and approximately 15 feet 22 away. 23 MR. : Shit. 24 MR. : But that's without ever 25 putting eyes on it. EFTA00126582 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 22 1 MR. : Right. All right. 2 MR. : Aside from video. 3 MR. : So, the office. Bird cage. 4 Office. III trying to figure out which one is 5 the entrance into the unit. 6 MR. : Speaking of entrance into 7 the Unit, my understanding is that there are 8 two ways - two doors that you've got to go 9 through. One is the Control -- 10 MR. : Yeah. 11 MR. : -- accesses, and then, 12 the interior is what the SHU staff -- 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : -- and how do they open 15 it from the SHU staff? Is it -- 16 MR. : By a key. 17 MR. -: -- by a key? 18 MR. : By a key. 19 MR. : And what is the key 20 called? Is it a gate key? 21 MR. : It's a prison key. 22 MR. : Oh, just a prison key. 23 It's not a special name? 24 MR. : Folger (Phonetic Sp. 25 *01:09:52). EFTA00126583 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Excuse me? 2 MR. : It's a Folger key. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : It's a prison key. 5 MR. : But it's not, like, a 6 special name that you call it in the SHU? 7 MR. : No. It's the OIA number 8 one's keys. 9 MR. : Okay. But so, they 10 physically have to open the - in order to get 11 anyone in or out of the SHU - they physically 12 have to open the -- 13 MR. : After they open it. 14 MR. : -- and there's only one 15 way in and out? 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : No, but I mean, yeah. Yes. 19 Precisely. III trying to figure out - even 20 this is orientation of me looking at this - is 21 III trying to figure out because I know this is 22 - this is the floor. 23 MR. : III assuming there's a -- 24 MR. : There's your stairs. So, III 25 trying to figure out, this is L. Yeah, that's EFTA00126584 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 224 1 L. Then you've got J. So, he was on L-tier, 2 right? 3 MR. : Mm-hmm. 4 MR. : So, L-tier, it wouldn't be 5 like this. And then, you would have had the 6 Officer Station, which, this would have been 7 the Officer Station. And that's going to the 8 Officer Station. There would have been a file 9 cabinet because the desks go around like so. 10 MR. : Have you ever seen the video 11 of the SHU? Where the Officer Station is. 12 MR. : You're talking about when the 13 staff -- 14 MR. : The camera. The camera. 15 MR. : -- so, that camera is by the 16 27 door, I believe. And that shines from where 17 the entrance of ZB, of -- 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : -- that shines down like 20 that. 21 MR. : Is that -- 22 MR. : And then, L-tier is right 23 here. 24 MR. : -- yeah. Is that pointed 25 right behind the desk, to the left of the desk? EFTA00126585 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 225 1 MR. : Yeah. 2 MR. : Okay. That's what you 3 pointed at? 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, that's what I was showing 7 you. So, that camera - in essence - that 8 camera would be right there. 9 MR. : So, it would be clearly 10 showing that file cabinet, if we reviewed that 11 camera? 12 MR. Yup. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, that file cabinet sat 15 right behind the desk. So, hopefully that's 16 better orientation. And then, the cell, I 17 think is L-tier, that Jeffrey Epstein was 18 assigned to was 16. 19 MR. : When you say "assigned to 20 21 MR. : Or something like that. 22 MR. : -- it sounds like, was he 23 not in that cell? 24 MR. : He wasn't in the right cell. 25 He was not there. EFTA00126586 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 226 1 MR. : He was in a different 2 cell than he was assigned? 3 MR. : You didn't know that? 4 MR. : No. Well, tell me about 5 this. So, where -? So, is this the first time 6 that he was ever not in the right cell? 7 MR. : He was not in the right cell, 8 sir. After we went back and we started looking 9 at the Sentry paperwork and all that stuff, 10 that inmate was not in the right cell for six 11 days. So, that mean 12 MR. : For six days, he was in 13 the wrong -- 14 MR. : -- so, basically, he was 15 assigned to this cell, he died in this cell. 16 MR. : But for six days, he was 17 going to the wrong cell? So, it wasn't, like, 18 just the one day he was found dead? 19 MR. : Right. So, they had him 20 quartered over here, but it was inmates already 21 over there. And then, you understand what III 22 saying? But he was found in this cell. 23 MR. : I don't understand when 24 you say -- 25 MR. : Wait. Let's point to the EFTA00126587 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 227 1 cell. Because I just want to get an idea. 2 MR. : But I think it's L-. I think 3 he was found on L-tier. Right? Do you know 4 that? 5 MR. : That's my understanding. 6 MR. : Yeah. That's my 7 understanding, too. 8 MR. : -- is L-tier. 9 MR. : L-tier. 10 MR. : Again, I don't know the 11 layout. There's got to be somewhere where it 12 says it on this. 13 MR. : I think it -. 14 MR. : Because that's G. Yeah. 15 That, it should be J and L. So, when you come 16 up the steps, I think this was supposed to be - 17 that's his assignment, this cell over here, but 18 he was found in one of these cells over here. 19 MR. : Now, do you know why? Did 20 you ask that question? 21 MR. : Because what they were doing 22 consistently is, is that when we do cell 23 rotations, which is supposed to be done between 24 every 30 days. Okay? 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126588 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 228 1 MR. : They may have moved the 2 inmates, but they weren't changing the PP-34 3 transaction in Sentry. 4 MR. : All right. So, what -. 5 MR. : So, the inmates were moved, 6 right? Physically, but the Sentry paperwork 7 would never be done. 8 MR. : So, he was supposed to be 9 moved, they just didn't follow with what their 10 necessary paperwork? 11 MR. : No. He was in this cell. 12 They must have moved him in Sentry. They must 13 have moved him, right? But he - when the Sentry 14 assignment came up - it showed that he was 15 still remained assigned to that cell, instead 16 of him being physically found in this cell. 17 MR. : But what III saying is, 18 like, it sounds, like, they were supposed to 19 move him, they just never did the paperwork to 20 say that he was moved? 21 MR. : Correct. 22 MR. : Okay. So, it's not, 23 like, I mean, I guess they technically put him 24 in the wrong cell because he wasn't technically 25 assigned to that, but the move was supposed to EFTA00126589 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 229 1 happen, they just didn't follow with the 2 administrative part of it. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : Okay. So -- 5 MR. : So, you -. 6 MR. : -- so, aside from the 7 administrative failure, is there any other 8 suspicion about the fact that he wasn't in the 9 assigned cell? 10 MR. : It was, and also, the 11 suspicion was, why did he have so much linen? 12 And so many t-shirts, and so many blankets. 13 No. We're taught you get one blanket, maybe 14 two. 15 MR. : And what -. 16 MR. : You get one, two, until you 17 get two t-shirts, two boxers, two pairs of 18 socks. 19 MR. : Was that question asked? 20 I mean, did you ask, like, , or any of the 21 SHU staff since then? 22 MR. : Of course. 23 MR. : And what did they say? 24 MR. : I mean, they're going to be, 25 like, I don't - how would I know? EFTA00126590 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 230 1 MR. : Who was responsible? 2 MR. : But you know what? That 3 happens all the time, sir. Because I will tell 4 you, I could clean out SHU. I've done it. And 5 they could say, I've went up there physically, 6 supervisors going in there, cleaning out the 7 SHU. I think I did it three or four times. 8 Well, and then, less than a week, I could go do 9 rounds, and inmates got all the stuff back. 10 MR. : Who was responsible for 11 giving it to them? 12 MR. : The staff because staff have 13 the keys. 14 MR. : And they just say, you 15 need more, here you go? 16 MR. : Here you go. 17 MR. : Well, would the staff do 18 it, or would the Lieutenant do it, or -? 19 MR. : I don't think Lieutenants 20 would do it. 21 MR. : So, the -- 22 MR. : It's more of a staff. 23 MR. : -- okay. 24 MR. : Because they don't want to 25 hear an inmate crying. EFTA00126591 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 231 1 MR. : Now, is -. 2 MR. : Kicking on the door. 3 MR. : Is having those extra 4 linens, and those extra, you know, boxers or 5 whatever, is that a security issue? 6 MR. : Yes. 7 MR. : And why is that a 8 security issue? 9 MR. : Because ultimately, that 10 gives the inmates the materials to be able to 11 make homemade fashioned and improvised nooses. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : Or they'll build a TT, and 14 use it as escape paraphernalia, just like they 15 did in Chicago. Tie that stuff together, they 16 broke out the window, and the inmate had a 17 rope. That's why we don't give inmates excess 18 clothing. 19 MR. : Okay. Now, as far as 20 this file, though, you never found out where 21 those -- 22 MR. : No. 23 MR. : -- documents went? 24 MR. : I couldn't find them. 25 MR. : Okay. And when we were EFTA00126592 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 232 1 saying people that had access to this room, was 2 it just a flood of people at that point, coming 3 out? 4 MR. : Anybody that - the people who 5 would be most would know about those files 6 would be the SHU staff. 7 MR. : The SHU staff. 8 MR. : And the Lieutenants. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Of course. 11 MR. : And what would be in 12 those files that possibly people wouldn't want 13 people to see? 14 MR. : I mean, the only thing, I 15 mean, that would be in there, like I said, 16 292s, because you're supposed to do them every 17 day. 18 MR. : And what are 292s? 19 MR. : 292s basically are, it shows 20 the inmates activities in the unit, daily. It 21 talks about if the inmate - any time the inmate 22 is out of the SHU time, out of cell time, it's 23 annotated on the 292. When the inmate showers, 24 when the inmate exercises, when the inmate 25 eats. Every meal. EFTA00126593 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2 1 MR. : Now, in your opinion, 2 would it be 3 MR. : For a 24-hour period. 4 MR. : -- would these documents 5 be missing because they were potentially 6 falsified, or because they might show something 7 about the death of Epstein? 8 MR. : It would show if he wasn't 9 taking meals. And they didn't report it. It 10 would show if the inmate wasn't afforded any 11 outside recreation time. Or any out of cell 12 time. But we know he wasn't getting that 13 because he was going to Attorney conference. 14 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : But those forms, no, they 16 wouldn't show that the inmate, you know, all of 17 that stuff is just administrative stuff that we 18 track for every inmate. 19 MR. : That's why III just 20 trying to figure out what would be the purpose 21 of taking those files? 22 MR. : Is there a possibility the 23 file was never updated? 24 MR. : I don't believe that. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126594 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 234 1 MR. : And who would be updating 2 the files? Just anybody in SHU? 3 MR. : That would be the OIC. Every 4 Sunday. You're printing out all the 292s, then 5 you put them in the file. 6 MR. : So, on Sundays. Is it 7 one person that typically -? 8 MR. : The OICs. Normally, the OIC 9 on morning watch would do that. They would 10 print out all of the 292s, and they would put 11 them all in each file. 12 MR. : Do you know, at this 13 time, around the August 9th and August 10th, 14 who would have been responsible for those 15 files, and printing those out, and putting them 16 in? 17 MR. : That would have been either 18 the - that would have probably been the SHU 19 staff - it would have been either, it would 20 probably be 21 MR. would have been? 22 MR. : Because she was assigned as 23 the - that would have been one of the 24 responsibilities of the SHU One. But that 25 would have been on Sunday. EFTA00126595 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 235 1 MR. : Yeah. Sunday. That's 2 what III saying. Do you know, up until this 3 point, though? Like, so, if the file is gone, 4 he's now there for, what? Almost two months. 5 MR. : (Indiscernible *01:19:43). 6 MR. : Would it be one person 7 responsible, or -- 8 MR. : Right. 9 MR. : -- whoever is there on 10 Sunday? 11 MR. : She wouldn't have known. So, 12 I mean, she wouldn't have - that's something, 13 unless you're the full-time SHU OIC, that you 14 would be cognizant of. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : She wouldn't know that. 17 MR. : So, there's that. 18 MR. : Question for you. If he was 19 put on suicide watch, or psych observation, 20 would that file be moved with him? 21 MR. : When the inmate goes on 22 suicide watch, they create another 292 because 23 he's not in the unit. So, that 292 goes down 24 with - and is put on the door. Right? So, that 25 copy of that 292, yeah, that's supposed to go EFTA00126596 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 236 1 to psychology, and the copy is supposed to go 2 back to Correctional Services, to put in his 3 file, to be maintained that, yeah, he was on 4 suicide watch. This would happen. You know, 5 you tell the story. So, yeah. Yeah. It would 6 - all of that information would be in there. 7 MR. : No. But III just asking, is 8 it possible it went to psych observation or 9 wherever that unit is, and never made it back? 10 MR. : It's a possibility. 11 MR. : But then, he's made there 12 since - but it should - like you were saying - 13 it should have been constantly updated. So, 14 from July 30th through August 9th or 10th, 15 there should still be extra stuff in there. 16 Correct? 17 MR. : Mm-hmm. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : All right. So, let' - 20 keep going here. expressed to 21 that the staff admitted to her they did not: 22 complete rounds, the 3:00 III. and 5:00 III. 23 counts." And that, so, and that's all they 24 admitted to, was those two? Not the ones prior 25 to that? EFTA00126597 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 237 1 MR. : Right. So, when I talked to 2 on the phone, that's what he told me on 3 the phone. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : He said, hey, Cap, the staff 6 told me they didn't do the rounds. 7 MR. : All right. 8 MR. : And I said, okay. 9 MR. : And that, "Officer 10 entered Epstein's cell without supervision." 11 Now, what does that mean? 12 MR. : That means that any time - 13 especially in the Special Housing Unit - any 14 time that cell, it should have been - 15 especially after hours - a Supervisor should 16 have been present. 17 MR. : When he went in to do the 18 life-saving measures, right? 19 MR. : Yup. 20 MR. : Now, do you know if - was 21 and , were they together, and he 22 walked in, or was she, like, down the range? 23 MR. : I believe she was on the 24 down, she was off the tier, and he probably 25 went to go do - doing the breakfast carts, and EFTA00126598 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 238 1 by the time he comes down the tier, and he 2 comes through - so, that means he didn't do a 3 round, because he would have saw him. Right? 4 So, that means he's going around, because 5 that's how feed, as soon as we come on, we 6 don't go this way. We go this way. So, that 7 cell that Epstein was found in, I think it's, 8 like, the second from the in. And so, it's, 9 like, the last cell, and then he was in that 10 next cell. Right? So, they come around the 11 whole area, and when he get to his cell, you 12 observe the inmate unresponsive. So, what 13 you're supposed to do is, you call Control. 14 Control, hey, I've got an unresponsive inmate. 15 Send staff to SHU. Or I've got an unresponsive 16 inmate, please state the medical emergency, 17 send someone to SHU. to Ops, hey, I 18 need you come to the Special Housing Unit. 19 Boom. You come up there. You've got a staff 20 because you don't know if it's a rouse. You 21 just popped down the door and just go in there. 22 You're putting yourself in jeopardy. 23 MR. : Now, does this create 24 suspicion for you, the fact that he went in 25 there by himself? EFTA00126599 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 239 1 MR. : I've seen a lot of stuff at 2 MCC, as far as with security protocols. I've 3 written staff up for violation of security 4 protocols. That instance right there, what he 5 did, wouldn't be uncommon. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : Because you try to tell 8 people how to react in an emergency situation, 9 and guess what? Everybody is not going to say 10 how they're going to react. But we do tell 11 them, if you're in the Special Housing Unit, 12 you need to wait until a Supervisor comes on 13 the scene before you pop a door in SHU. 14 MR. : Now, do you know how 15 MR. : Period. 16 MR. : -- he was found? Was he 17 hanging? 18 MR. : I don't know how he was 19 found. 20 MR. : -- was he on the floor? 21 No? 22 MR. : Don't know. I didn't read 23 the autopsy report. I don't know. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I only know what the news had EFTA00126600 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 240 1 reported. 2 MR. : Okay. It says, "Epstein 3 was placed on the floor to administer life- 4 saving efforts," and that's why I asked, I 5 didn't know if he was still hanging -- 6 MR. : I don't know. 7 MR. : -- he took them off. All 8 right. informed Associate Warden 9 about what Officers and 10 admitted to had concerns 11 about the whereabouts of Epstein's cell mate. 12 Some of his staff were under the impression 13 that Reyes was released from the SHU, which 14 later confirmed was not true." Was not 15 true or was true? You confirmed that -? 16 MR. : He wasn't released from SHU. 17 He wasn't released from SHU. 18 MR. : He was released? 19 MR. : He was released from court. 20 MR. : Oh, okay. 21 MR. : He wasn't released from the 22 institution. Usually, it's from court. 23 MR. : Oh, okay. So, what 24 they're trying to say here is that you guys 25 didn't release him. He went to court, and they EFTA00126601 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 241 1 released him, he never -- 2 MR. : That's right. 3 MR. : -- he never came back. 4 MR. : He never came back. 5 MR. : Okay. But he was 6 released from custody? 7 MR. : Yes. He was released in 8 custody when he went to court 9 MR. : Gotcha. 10 MR. : -- that day. 11 MR. : All right. So, this is 12 worded weird. "The purpose of the 3:00 and the 13 5:00 III. count is to physically count and 14 confirm each person is in their cell. There 15 were no entries of counts in TRUSCOPE the 16 entire night. If technology is down, the 17 Correctional Officers also have the option to 18 document the count on a hard copy form. 19 Although there are no electronic records of 20 counts, hard copies must have been retained." 21 MR. : That is correct. 22 MR. : Is it odd that they 23 didn't enter it into the TRUSCOPE that night? 24 MR. : No, it's not odd. Because I 25 told you, on occasion, the staff member would EFTA00126602 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 242 1 say, oh, I don't have access to TRUSCOPE, but 2 however, they are given hard copies of the 3 count slip, which continues for the 24-hour 4 period. 5 MR. : Right. Yeah. 6 MR. : So, you're continuing to do 7 your rounds. And then, at the end of the 8 rounds, at the end of the week, this is how 9 it's supposed to happen. Because I actually 10 put this in place, because that was one of the 11 vitals that we had during our program review, 12 which we got a hit on. At the end of the week, 13 the Lieutenant is supposed to get them, and he 14 will audit them, to make every sure all of your 15 rounds was conducted in the 40-minutes 16 irregular. If it's not, that staff member is 17 identified, and then, they're given counseling. 18 So, we're trying to stop staff, you know, we 19 try to encourage staff to do the right thing, 20 but if they're not, we're trying to catch it on 21 our level, before it gets reported out. So, 22 even then, you know, the Lieutenants there was 23 sign put up there that it wasn't getting done 24 on a regular basis. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126603 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 243 1 MR. : When I input, when I - and 2 then, I have to counsel them, where is my stuff 3 weekly? So, I've counseled them. I've got 4 counseling's for that. 5 MR. : Did you ever counsel 6 either or 7 MR. : No. I don't know if I have a 8 counseling on them. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : No, but before this incident, 11 but no. 12 MR. : It says, "All inmate 13 phone calls in the SHU are monitored, and 14 inmates have limited access to phone calls. 15 All calls should be recorded. was not 16 aware of any issues or complaints with Epstein, 17 related to phone calls. On Saturday, August 18 10, 2019, was told that Epstein made a 19 phone call at approximately 7:00 III. on the 20 evening of Friday, August 9, 2019. It is 21 uncommon to make an unrecorded phone call in 22 the SHU, and would advise against it 23 because calls should be surveilled. Inmates 24 can make a recorded phone call in the 25 Lieutenant's Office, where it is documented in EFTA00126604 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 244 1 a monitored logbook. In the SHU, Correctional 2 Officers are not permitted to give inmate phone 3 calls, but a Unit Task Team member, or the 4 Chaplin can take the inmate to the Lieutenant's 5 Office and make a call. is not briefed 6 on phone calls in the SHU generally." But in 7 this case, you said that you did advise 8 that he could. And where did the call take 9 place? 10 MR. : Well, because I know between 11 that time, we had installed a jack. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : In SHU, in order to do the 14 outgoing calls. So, they could actually do 15 those calls in SHU. Though, before the 16 Chaplin, of course. So, if you had a SHU 17 inmate, he didn't have to bring the inmate all 18 the way down to the Lieutenant's Office to do a 19 call. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : So, there was a jack up there 22 in the - I can't remember where it is. III 23 sorry. 24 MR. : It's near the shower 25 room? EFTA00126605 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 245 1 MR. : Yeah. Something like that. 2 But so, we actually had the ability to have 3 that outgoing call capability for those inmates 4 in SHU. Because you can't bring them down to 5 the Lieutenant's Office. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : So, you could do an outgoing 8 call capability in the SHU. 9 MR. : Okay. And so, you did 10 approve that call, and then, just log it? 11 MR. : Yes. 12 MR. : Okay. And take care of 13 all that? 14 MR. : Yes, I did. And that was 15 something that Mr. said, and Mr. 16 was, actually, I believe he was the 17 IDO. 18 MR. : And again, what is the 19 IDO? 20 MR. : The Institutional Duty 21 Officer. 22 MR. : And what does that mean? 23 MR. : That means is that every 24 week, for a seven-day period, normally, people 25 with a grades of just 12 and above, 12, 13s, EFTA00126606 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 246 1 would be the Institutional - or 14s - would be 2 the Institutional Duty Officer. Right? So, 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that means they go around, and they check all of the institutional - that they're taking calls after hours, from Correctional Services. They're reporting certain stuff to the Region. They're doing rounds in SHU. They're doing rounds throughout the institution, in all the areas of the institution, and the accumulated report, which is given to the Warden for their review, about the daily operations of the institution during that week. Also, a part of that is SHU rounds. You know, they make sure that SHU rounds, everybody that's supposed to do rounds within a week, you have to do them, or you get notified, and then you notify that Thursday or Friday, and you're supposed to go do your rounds. By the close out. You only have to do it there once a week. So, that's just part of the duties. But they bring the report, they create a report of operations. Any incidents that counts in SHU, if they was bad. the total occurred. The Anything that was going on in Food Service, or if they observed certain instances during the - in EFTA00126607 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 247 1 general population that should be addressed by 2 the Unit Team or Correctional Services, and 3 stuff like that. And so, that's what they do. 4 MR. : Okay. And then, this 5 concludes, " wholeheartedly emphasized 6 that he and his staff at MCC did their best to 7 supervise, safeguard, and ensure the protection 8 of Epstein and all inmates effectively. His 9 staff is aware of the seriousness of the 10 investigation into Epstein's death." 11 MR. : Right. 12 MR. : Now, as far as what I 13 just read you, I know it was over the course of 14 two hours, but - I mean, four hours - but is 15 there anything else you told the FBI or the OIG 16 that wasn't included in this report? 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : And what was that 19 regarding? 20 MR. : I talked about that, when I, 21 it was brief in there, but I talked about 22 Lieutenant actions. Talked about 23 that, one) she didn't do physical rounds in the 24 unit because, as I said, I went into TRUSCOPE, 25 because I wanted to know, because I did all EFTA00126608 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 248 1 this within the time that I got to the 2 institution, I pulled up TRUSCOPE, and I can 3 actually go in, and I get to see where they're 4 logging in and doing rounds because once I pull 5 up those reports, because the two I verify off 6 of, I pull those reports up, I can show where 7 the computer terminals are. And all of her 8 rounds was done from the Lieutenant's Office. 9 MR. : Okay. I thought - so -- 10 MR. : Because you -. 11 MR. - aside from 12 the bad count, where she should have went - she 13 should have, even with the bad count, she 14 should have been there, observing an actual 15 count? 16 MR. : Mm-hmm. 17 MR. : In the SHU? 18 MR. : Yeah. 19 MR. : And what count? 20 MR. : No. No, no, no. What she 21 should have done is then done rounds. 22 MR. : Oh. 23 MR. : In the SHU that night. So, 24 between 10:00 and 6:00, she should have done a 25 round in SHU. Well, any time after 12:00 III. EFTA00126609 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 249 1 to 6:00, she should have done a round in SHU. 2 There was no rounds. All of the rounds were 3 done from the Lieutenant's Office. 4 MR. : Well, if she did - I 5 think we do believe that she did conduct a 6 round at 4:00 III. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, she actually 9 physically went into the SHU at 4:00 III. -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- and spoke with them. 12 And then, potentially even came back, and 13 checked in a little while later. 14 UNKNOWN MALE: Dude, it's been a while. I 15 got a little busy. 16 MR. : Thank you, sir. And so, 17 if she did that one time, at the 4:00 18 possibly another check-in ten or 15 minutes 19 later, would that be sufficed for whatever her 20 duty and responsibility was? 21 MR. : Well, that means, if you sat 22 there and you did all your rounds, so, I did 23 all of my rounds at the computer office. 24 MR. : And never went -- 25 MR. : In the computer EFTA00126610 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 (Indiscernible *01:32:56). 2 MR. : -- and she never - she 3 was supposed to go to the Control Center, and 4 actually do the counts from there, right? 5 MR. : Well, you're supposed to take 6 - yeah - one of the counts. So, normally, we 7 would take the 3:45 count or the 5:00. Either 8 one. You could take one of the counts. It 9 don't matter which one you take. You've just 10 got to take one. The 12:00, the 3:00, or the 11 5:00. Right? You've got to take a count. 12 You've got to go through, go do a round in SHU. 13 A round in SHU. So, you have to go, actually, 14 go physically to the unit. And then, you're 15 supposed to do rounds throughout the entire 16 institution. So, if III at the Lieutenant's 17 desk, and I say that all my rounds was done 18 from this one terminal, because you're actually 19 supposed to go in, I provide it in card 20 readers. 21 MR. : So, they're supposed to - 22 when they do a round there - so, they're 23 supposed to log it in from the unit? 24 MR. : From that terminal. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126611 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 251 1 MR. : So, that means they can go on 2 a floor, and they don't have to go log into 3 both computers on the floor, as long as you log 4 into one on the floor, you're good. That's the 5 policy. 6 MR. : And is that just to show 7 that they are physically there, and they're not 8 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. -: -- falsifying the rounds? 11 MR. : There is. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, you just can't just sit 14 at the desk, and say, I did all the rounds. 15 MR. _: III going to investigate the 16 (Indiscernible *01:34:05) of what the 17 Lieutenant rounds entails. 18 MR. : You can ask again, if you 19 want. Go ahead. (Indiscernible *01:34:09). 20 MR. : I don't remember if you did. 21 I apologize if you answered it already. When a 22 Lieutenant has to do a round in a - let's say 23 any tier - and let's say the SHU, what does 24 that entail? What (Indiscernible *01:34:19)? 25 MR. : They're supposed to go door EFTA00126612 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 252 1 by door, just like I explained to you before. 2 You're supposed to go in the unit, go on the 3 tier, and you're supposed to walk and look at 4 every cell. 5 MR. : And what'd he saying, he 6 just - to clarify - he wants to make sure it's 7 the Lieutenants that are also supposed to do 8 that. 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Not just the staff. And 11 is that - and again, for clarification, I 12 apologize, but it's so much, we've got to 13 dissect, you know, we're going to have to 14 digest what you told us, and listen to it again 15 - but is it every shift, a Lieutenant should do 16 that? 17 MR. : Yes. Every shift, in the 24- 18 hour period, rounds have to be conducted by a 19 Lieutenant. In SHU. 20 MR. : And so, if Lieutenants 21 are telling us that they don't think that 22 that's part of their duties, they're supposed 23 to do just rounds -- 24 MR. : They're wrong. 25 MR. : -- of staff, and is that EFTA00126613 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2r- 1 policy that says 2 MR. : Yeah. 3 MR. : -- that they need to do 4 that? 5 MR. : Yeah. 6 MR. : So, and if they're 7 telling us that, are they lying to us, or are 8 they just -? 9 MR. : I think just think they're 10 unaware or confused. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : I really do. If it says that 13 a Lieutenant will perform a round in the 14 Special Housing Unit, once on their shift. 15 MR. : And then, and that means 16 an actual, not a round to check in with the 17 staff, but a round -- 18 MR. : No. That's a -- 19 MR. : -- to actually looking at 20 the -? 21 MR. : -- round to walk around the 22 unit. 23 MR. : So, in this matter, when 24 you're looking at these 4:00, 10:00 III., 12:00 25 III., 3:00, and 5:00, which - on our duty EFTA00126614 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 roster, on both August 9th and August 10th - 2 which Lieutenant should have conducted rounds? 3 MR. : Okay. So, on -- 4 MR. : With the inmates. 5 MR. : -- on August 9th, 6 should have done a round in SHU. 7 MR. : But what, approximately 8 what time? 9 MR. : It's going to be from 1000 10 hours, only 2200 hours, to 06. 11 MR. : So, the day before 12 MR. : Right. 13 MR. -- for August 8th -- 14 MR. : So, that means -- 15 MR. : -- 2200. 16 MR. : -- she would have done 17 anything after 12:00. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. -: or would have 20 done them. So, I don't know who would have 21 done them on that day, and especially since we 22 didn't have a SHU Lieutenant, they should have 23 done a round in SHU. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Because just like we had the EFTA00126615 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 255 1 PC unit, that was on the third floor 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- you was responsible for 4 doing a round in the PC unit. 5 MR. : And are you aware if 6 or , they were there? Do you know 7 if either of them are aware that they needed to 8 do rounds of inmates in the SHU? 9 MR. : Yeah, they knew. 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : Either one of them would have 12 done it. 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : So, I would say, normally, 15 when I was the Operations Lieutenant, I would 16 have sent the Activity, hey, go to SHU, go 17 knock out the round. 18 MR. : So, , probably, 19 would have been the one there? 20 MR. : And then, for , I 21 would have sent up there. 22 MR. : All right. So, 23 or should have done a round. Okay. And 24 it doesn't have to be - so, when you're saying 25 a round, are you talking about the counts or EFTA00126616 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 256 1 the rounds? It could have been any round, 2 because rounds are 30, it would be 30-minutes 3 or so -- 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : -- are you talking about 6 one of the main counts? 7 MR. : So, just like a Correctional 8 Supervisor, a Lieutenant, is supposed to make a 9 round in SHU. 10 MR. : I know, but what - I just 11 want to make sure we're clarifying the 12 difference between the 30-minute round and the 13 - because you said they should have conducted 14 one of the 4:00, 10:00, 12:00 -- 15 MR. : That's a count. 16 MR. : -- that's a count? So, 17 are they supposed to conduct a count, or just 18 one of the regular 30-minute rounds? 19 MR. : No. On every shift, within a 20 24-hour period, a Lieutenant is supposed to 21 make a round in SHU. 22 MR. : A round. So, not -- 23 MR. : A Lieutenant. That's why I 24 would say a Lieutenant. 25 MR. : Yup. EFTA00126617 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 257 1 MR. : It specifies to a - because I 2 can't say the Operations, the Activities, the 3 Admin. No. A Lieutenant. So, that's why we 4 get by on day watch because you have the 5 assigned Lieutenant in the unit, that's going 6 to make the said round. 7 MR. : Okay. And so, when 8 MR. : Or day watch. 9 MR. : -- so, when went 10 to - at 4:00 - to the SHU, she should have 11 conducted a round of the inmate -- 12 MR. : Of the entire Unit. 13 MR. : -- not just checked in 14 with the staff? 15 MR. : No. She should have made a 16 round. 17 MR. : Okay. And then, that's 18 what I wanted to clarify a round versus count. 19 Because that could have happened any time in 20 between - you know, for these people - any time 21 in between any of the counts, at any time they 22 could have showed up and said, let's do a 23 round. 24 MR. : Mm-hmm. 25 MR. : Real quick. Okay. EFTA00126618 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 258 1 MR. : And when she made that round, 2 she just sees the person, she doesn't have to 3 talk to them? 4 MR. : You walk around, and if it's 5 at night, you're going to take and shine your 6 light in there, because you're not doing a 7 count. So, as Correctional Officers, you know, 8 over the years, you're taught to look at 9 certain things in a cell. When I shine that 10 light in there, III shining, I make sure, 11 because normally inmates will move their foot 12 or move their leg, or arm, or leg, so I would 13 count flesh when I see flesh. I could check 14 the windows real quick, or if they got stuff in 15 hanging, that's restricting my view, I could 16 correct it at that time, hey, take that down, 17 hey you, so and so, get up, take the covering 18 down. That's doing an effective round. And 19 you do that for every cell in the block. 20 MR. : What about when the SHU 21 Lieutenant is on duty, is he the one 22 that's doing the rounds? 23 MR. : Yeah. No. No, no. Officers 24 are doing the rounds. So, when he does his 25 rounds, it's normally with a status report. EFTA00126619 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 259 1 You understand? 2 MR. : So, not only -- 3 MR. : So, he'll do -- 4 MR. : -- is he doing it, but 5 also one of the Activities or Ops Lieutenant is 6 also doing one? 7 MR. : No. If is in there, 8 he's the one to do that round. 9 MR. : And then -. 10 MR. : He's going to do the round, 11 because he's in the Unit all day. 12 MR. : Right. And he's actually 13 physically in the Unit, when he's there? 14 MR. Mm-hmm. Yes. That's his 15 place of duty. 16 MR. : All right. So then, the, 17 you know, the Ops or the Activities 18 Lieutenants, they don't need to then go to the 19 SHU -- 20 MR. : No. 21 MR. : -- and do rounds on that 22 day? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : It's only when he's not 25 there? EFTA00126620 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 260 1 MR. : Correct. 2 MR. : Okay. And then, 3 obviously, he's only there in the day, right? 4 He's not there at night? 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : So, whoever the Ops 7 Lieutenant is at night, always needs to go do 8 it. 9 MR. : Got to do go a round. 10 Yeah. 11 MR. : And that's what you meant 12 when you said didn't conduct a 13 round, you're talking about, she didn't 14 actually do the inmate round? 15 MR. : Right, because then, she 16 probably would have probably seen the inmate in 17 distress, or -- 18 MR. : Right. 19 MR. something like that. 20 MR. : And do you know anything 21 about when Epstein actually died versus when he 22 was found? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : I heard it was hours before. EFTA00126621 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 261 1 MR. : Okay. Where the SHU 2 staff are located in the map that you just drew 3 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : -- could they see into 6 Epstein's cell from there? 7 MR. : No. But you could see, like, 8 if the lights was on, you know, so, if III 9 standing down by the Officer's Station, I could 10 look up on the tier, and I could look down, and 11 if the lights are on, I could definitely see if 12 the light was on in the cell or not. 13 MR. : About how big are the 14 windows of the doors? 15 MR. : I would say they are probably 16 like this. 17 MR. : About that? Okay. So -- 18 MR. : But -- 19 MR. : -- about, like 20 MR. and then -. 21 MR. : -- 24 inches by, like, 22 ten inches? 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : Or something. 25 MR. : Something like that. EFTA00126622 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 262 1 MR. : Okay. And they're always 2 open? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : There's nothing that 5 covers them, or -? 6 MR. : We do have the ability to 7 close, like, when we have an incident on the 8 tier, we have an unresponsive inmate, or 9 MR. : Yup. 10 MR. -- we were giving medical, 11 you know, if we're doing anything that deals 12 with the inmate specifically, we'll block those 13 other observation windows off, so the inmates 14 can't see. 15 MR. : Now, when the staff are 16 doing an overnight, the early morning watch, 17 from zero, from 12:00 III. and through 8:00 18 are they allowed to sleep? 19 MR. : No. You can't sleep. 20 MR. : So, if the SHU, if 21 they're in the SHU, can one sleep while the 22 other stays awake? 23 MR. : No. 24 MR. : So, no one is allowed to 25 sleep? EFTA00126623 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 263 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Have you heard that they 3 were sleeping on this shift? 4 MR. : I heard that, and what camera 5 footage I saw, I could physically observe them 6 sleeping. 7 MR. : So, did you see them both 8 sleeping? 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : So, you did actually 11 review the video? 12 MR. : I saw - I did see that video. 13 MR. : Okay. You did. And you 14 saw both of them asleep? Do you know about how 15 long they were sleeping? 16 MR. : I can't remember that. 17 MR. : Sure. And is that a big 18 problem? 19 MR. : That is a very big problem. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : I mean, my thing is, is that 22 I understand that, you know, you worked 23 overtime, or you was mandated to work another 24 time. When I was a Correctional Officer, guess 25 what? I'll go get on the tier, I'll go do EFTA00126624 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 264 1 rounds. I would just stay walking in the unit. 2 You know? It's nothing wrong to get on the 3 internet. But between that time you're on the 4 internet, you need to shut it off, and go do 5 rounds. If that's the way you stay awake at 6 night, or do your OIC duties. Audit the - what 7 they're told to do - audit the bed book. Audit 8 the - make sure all the 292s is done for the 9 previous shift. You know, do all the stuff 10 that's mandated on your watch as you're 11 supposed to do, then do those functions. That 12 will keep you awake. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : If you're doing the work. 15 MR. : Were they allowed -- 16 MR. : Do you -- 17 MR. : -- yeah. 18 MR. : -- do you know if either 19 of these individuals, in this instance - 20 or - were on mandatory overtime? 21 MR. _: was. I believe she was 22 going from evening watch to morning watch, and 23 I believe that came into work that as 24 overtime. 25 MR. : Now, was mandatory EFTA00126625 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 265 1 overtime, though? She didn't -- 2 MR. : Yeah. She was a mandated. I 3 think she was mandated because if you see here, 4 she was - her shift was 4:00 to 12:00. Right? 5 And then, if you see here, as TO - 6 overtime. So, if you go here, it's going to 7 show, go to SHU One. Yeah. So, basically, if 8 she - yeah, it says, yeah - if she was SHU One, 9 had hired her on 05/19. So, it doesn't 10 show if she was mandatory, or whatever. 11 MR. : So, it could have 12 voluntary? 13 MR. : It could have been voluntary. 14 MR. : Okay. Okay. Great. And 15 the last thing I want to ask you about, and 16 then I'll turn it over to . Here's an e- 17 mail that was sent out on 07/30/2019, from a 18 . Do you know who that is? I-I-E- 19 R-I. 20 MR. -: . That sounds -- 21 MR. : I think it's 22 MR. -- I think Ms. - hold 23 on - she works in Psychology. 24 MR. : Yeah. And it says, 25 "Inmate Epstein, number 76318-054, is being EFTA00126626 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 266 1 taken off psych observation, and needs to be 2 housed with an appropriate cell mate. Do you 3 recall getting that at all? 4 MR. : So, "At 07/30, inmate Epstein 5 is going to be taken off of psychological, and 6 needs to be housed with an appropriate inmate." 7 I probably did. Yeah. 8 MR. : Now, can you flip over 9 you're going to see all, like, the Lieutenants 10 and everybody in there. If your Lieutenants 11 received this -- 12 MR. : It would have said "Read." 13 MR. : -- so, do they have to 14 click on a - do they have, like, for me, I can 15 say, like, do I want to send a response or not? 16 MR. : No, they have to click on it. 17 MR. : Right. So, if they don't 18 click on it, they could still have read it? 19 MR. : Mm-hmm. 20 MR. : And it wouldn't say "Read 21 response"? 22 MR. Mm-hmm. You would have to 23 click on it to read it. 24 MR. : Do you know what III 25 saying? So, like, if I open an e-mail, it gives EFTA00126627 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 267 1 me the -- 2 MR. : Mm-hmm. 3 MR. : -- it gives me an option 4 - in my e-mail at least - do you want to send a 5 read response? 6 MR. : No, it's different -- 7 MR. : Or not. 8 MR. like, on mine, how I got 9 mine set up, I could see the e-mail message. 10 You know you can do that, right? Like, on my 11 mine, like, when my emails come up -- 12 MR. : Yeah, yeah. 13 MR. : I can read what it is 14 without actually clicking on it. 15 MR. : So, there's a ton of 16 people on there that it doesn't say "Read." 17 MR. : Right. 18 MR. : Do you think that they 19 actually didn't see this e-mail, or didn't 20 actually read it? 21 MR. : I mean, I believe it. 22 MR. : So, are a lot of BOP 23 employees, then, not reading their emails? 24 MR. : Yeah. 25 MR. : So, if it doesn't "Read" EFTA00126628 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 268 1 on there, you believe that some of these 2 Lieutenants actually may not have seen that e- 3 mail? 4 MR. : Mm-hmm. 5 MR. : Okay. That's fair 6 enough. 7 MR. : And that's fair. Because I 8 know, if you look at mine, like, I can actually 9 monitor emails, so you don't know if I read, if 10 I seen it. 11 MR. : Well, that's kind of my 12 point. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. : Is that, like -- 15 MR. : Yeah. I have. Yeah. 16 MR. : -- you can read it 17 without actually it showing that it was read. 18 MR. : Yes. I can do it. 19 MR. : So, that's what III 20 saying. So, in this case -- 21 MR. : Yeah. 22 MR. : -- do you think that, 23 just because it says -- 24 MR. : Yeah, because, like, 25 read it. read it. read it. SHU EFTA00126629 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 269 1 staff. The AW read it. III just looking at 2 all of the Lieutenants. Lieutenant read 3 it. The Warden read it. (Indiscernible 4 *01:47:41) read it. So, yeah, there was a few 5 Lieutenants that actually read it. 6 MR. : Okay. But just because 7 it says that they didn't read it, doesn't mean 8 they necessarily - like you - they could have 9 had something -- 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : -- set up where it 12 doesn't even show that they read it. 13 MR. : Right. 14 MR. : All right. Before I turn 15 it over, can you just - just so we know what 16 documents - can you just initial and date the 17 top of each of these sets of documents that I 18 gave you? 19 MR. : Yeah. Right here? 20 MR. : Yeah. Just all on top. 21 Yup. Just your initial and date. Today's date 22 is -- 23 MR. : What is today? 24 MR. : 06/15. 25 MR. : -- 06/15/21. EFTA00126630 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 270 1 MR. : Oh. 2 MR. : 06/15/21. 3 MR. : 06/15? 4 MR. : Yeah. 06/15/21. 5 MR. : 06/15/21. Sorry about that. 6 MR. : And just for all the 7 counts and stuff, too. It was the sheet -- 8 MR. : So, I got to do it 9 MR. : No, no. Just -- 10 MR. : -- no, no, no, no -- 11 MR. -- for all of these? 12 MR. : -- just the top of each, 13 like, so, there's the staple. Just on each one 14 that's stapled. 15 MR. All right. 06/15/21? 16 MR. : Yeah. This is just the 17 way we keep records of what we actually talked 18 about. 19 MR. sorry. You know, 20 taking all day. 21 MR. : No. We really - it's 22 super helpful. There's a lot of stuff that you 23 told us that we didn't know about, so. 24 MR. : I was surprised you didn't 25 know about him being in the wrong cell. EFTA00126631 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 271 1 MR. : Yeah. No. That's - did 2 you know anything about that? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : But again, that's an 5 administrative error, as opposed to any kind of 6 suspicion related to his death. Correct? 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : And then, just the duty 9 Agent rosters, or the schedules. Thank you, 10 sir. 11 MR. : You're welcome. 12 MR. : All right. 13 MR. : Just a couple of follow up 14 questions. 15 MR. : Sure. 16 MR. : Was Epstein given special 17 privileges, anything like that? 18 MR. : No. I don't believe so. No. 19 MR. : You mentioned that he was 20 meeting with his Attorneys seven days a week? 21 MR. : Mm-hmm. 22 MR. : And was that allowed for any 23 other the inmates? 24 MR. : I mean, all the inmates are 25 afforded that because while they're pre-trial EFTA00126632 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmates, they have that right, to seek the 2 legal counsel. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : So, it's up to the legal 5 counsel when they want to go see them. If they 6 don't want to go see them every 90 days, 7 that's, you know, but his legal counsel came 8 quite often. 9 MR. : Okay. The phone call. The 10 instruction you gave You told him 11 that had made the phone call, record it. Now, 12 if Epstein mentioned that he wants to make the 13 phone call to a certain person, and if 14 dialed that number, is he supposed to identify 15 that that's the person who answered the phone? 16 MR. : Yeah. Like I told you 17 before, that's part of the process. So, 18 that's, like, if I call you, and you say, well, 19 III so and so, and III his Attorney. Okay. 20 Fine. 21 MR. : Now, if that person wasn't 22 the person who answered the phone, what was 23 supposed to do? 24 MR. : Then he was supposed to not 25 give and allow him to - like, if he was trying EFTA00126633 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 273 1 to call a male and a female answered the phone, 2 if that meant, is so and so available? No. 3 Then he wouldn't have gotten - been able to 4 speak to the female person that answered the 5 phone. No. 6 MR. : According to the records, I 7 think Epstein mentioned he wanted to speak to 8 his mother. 9 MR. : Okay. I don't know. 10 MR. : Is there, like, a list that 11 they need to go by, or just Epstein would 12 provide the number, and that was it? 13 MR. : Basically, inmates are 14 supposed to supply certain people their 15 supposed to call. So, like, on their phone 16 list, there's certain people that we vet, that 17 the inmates can call. So, normally, it's, 18 like, over in - a religious person, your 19 immediate family members, a girlfriend, a wife, 20 a spouse, children, stuff like that, past or 21 whatever. But then, legally, if your legal 22 contact or your Attorney, it's different. You 23 know, you can - that's a totally different type 24 of call. Outside of what the inmates get. 25 Like, if they pick up the commissary phone, and EFTA00126634 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 274 1 try to call, it's only going to allow them to 2 call those numbers off of the phone list. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : You know what III saying? The 5 proof form is the green form. But over here, 6 they say, well, I need to speak to my Attorney. 7 Okay, I'll give you the Attorney call. But if 8 that was the case, he could have been afforded 9 or given, if he was calling his mother, if he 10 had time on the books, because he went back to 11 his cell prior to - I think the cell, the SHU, 12 the cell, the phones in SHU cut off at 9:00 13 III. III not certain. I can't remember. He 14 could have called his mother at that time. And 15 we wouldn't have had to facilitate the call. 16 He could have called her right from the thing. 17 MR. : So, I just want to - should 18 have checked that list before he made 19 that phone call? 20 MR. : Yeah. 21 MR. : Okay. And the last question 22 is, if the order came from Psych, right? - It 23 was just a question - if the order came from 24 Psych, that Epstein needed a cell mate, should 25 they have come down to the Unit and made sure EFTA00126635 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 275 1 that everyone else knew about it, that 2 requirement? 3 MR. : No. Well, what do you mean? 4 MR. : Let's say, at Psych, that 5 6 MR. : Yeah. 7 MR. -- e-mail came out saying 8 that, Epstein required a cell mate. 9 MR. : Okay. So, what would have 10 happened is, if he would have been released - 11 because she would put that out. So, if the 12 inmate was being released from suicide watch, 13 prior for him being released from suicide 14 watch, that would have went to the exec staff, 15 that would have went to the SHU OIC, the 16 Operations Lieutenant, to inform him that he 17 needs - before place him in SHU - he needs to 18 have an appropriate cell mate. Not a vetted 19 one. Just someone because of what the SHU 20 policy says, that an inmate must have a cell 21 mate. 22 MR. : Okay, but it's on -- 23 MR. : But it doesn't say a vetted 24 cell mate. It doesn't say all these protocols. 25 But with her, that's a general statement that EFTA00126636 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 276 1 would be made for any suicide watch inmate 2 coming off of suicide watch. 3 MR. : Oh so, she sent that e-mail? 4 MR. : That's it, if you pull up any 5 other e-mail dealing with an e-mail coming from 6 suicide watch, back to SHU, that would be for 7 any inmate. But however, with him, you 8 couldn't necessarily do that because he would 9 have to have a vetted cell mate. He would have 10 to have somebody appropriate for him. Not just 11 any cell that was open. That, you know, if it 12 was a -- 13 MR. : I see. 14 MR. : -- single occupancy, then you 15 could put him in there. But no, he had to be 16 vetted before he could go in with anybody. 17 MR. : That's all I had. 18 MR. : Is there anything we're 19 missing? Anything we didn't cover? 20 MR. : That's it. 21 MR. : Let me see this form 22 right here. Yeah, we covered that. All right. 23 So, yeah. If there's nothing else on your end, 24 then just we'll wrap it up. 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00126637 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 2-- 1 MR. : And there's - again - 2 there's nothing that you discussed with the 3 FBI, or the OIG, previous, that we didn't 4 cover? On this. 5 MR. : No. That's pretty much 6 everything. 7 MR. : That's it. Perfect. It 8 sounds like you were with . Was 9 there anything else that she didn't do, that 10 she should have? Aside from that round. 11 MR. : I mean, with 12 I believe that it was the issue with the log. 13 I think it was a log issue that we had talked 14 about, that when I pulled up the initial log, 15 after I got there, when I pulled up the 16 Lieutenant's log, it appeared that it was two 17 different logs in the system. And then, within 18 45 minutes, one log had disappeared out of the 19 system, and then, I see her leaving at about 20 9:15 III., out of the building. I don't know 21 where she was in the building, but at 9:15 22 III., she comes walking out of the building. 23 And I reported that to OIG when I talked to 24 them. I talked to them about that log being -- 25 MR. : And what was the log? EFTA00126638 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 278 1 MR. : -- the daily log. 2 MR. : The daily log. 3 MR. : The Lieutenant's log. So, 4 there was two different logs, and then, one of 5 the logs wasn't right. And then, when I went 6 back, it had been deleted. And then, I see her 7 leaving out the building at 9:15 III. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : On that Saturday morning. 10 MR. : And when should have she 11 left? 12 MR. : She should have left at 6:00. 13 Why was she in the building for another three 14 plus hours? And I brought that up to the 15 investigators, to the OIG. 16 MR. : Can I see that timeline? 17 MR. : Do you have any reason to 18 believe - obviously, there looks like there was 19 some people that dropped the ball here, there's 20 some, like we talked about, job performance 21 failure, security failure - do you have any 22 reason to believe that there's anybody that 23 harmed Epstein? 24 MR. : No. 25 MR. : So, do you believe that - EFTA00126639 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 279 1 2 MR. : No. 3 MR. : -- he took his own life? 4 MR. : I believe he took his own 5 life. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 MR. : I don't believe any of the 8 staff did any harm to him. No, I don't. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : I don't. Nah. 11 MR. : And then, as far as 12 going back to and this log book 13 - when you saw that there was two - it looks 14 like - duplicates, did you see what the 15 discrepancies were, when you noticed that there 16 were two of them for that daily log? 17 MR. : Right. Because III going 18 tell you how I found out. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : So, when I went in TRUSCOPE, 21 I told you I was looking for the rounds. 22 MR. : Mm-hmm. 23 MR. : Because III bouncing the log 24 off of what the rounds was. 25 MR. : Mm-hmm. EFTA00126640 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 280 1 MR. : Because all this stuff is 2 going into evidence. So, III hurrying, III 3 trying to gather this stuff. So, the log, III 4 trying to compare it to the rounds, it's not 5 jiving. So, III reading the log, and the log 6 is totally - it's not jiving. The whole thing 7 is - the times, the frames - it's not jiving. 8 So then, all of the sudden, when III printing 9 out the paperwork from TRUSCOPE, I go back and 10 I look at the log, boom, another log pops up. 11 So, III reading this one, and then, the other 12 log that was there before is deleted. 13 MR. : And she has the ability 14 to do that? 15 MR. : Yeah. 16 MR. : Would the system reflect that 17 she made changes? 18 MR. : No. It's not like -- 19 MR. : Or made changes. 20 MR. -- it's not like the roster. 21 The roster is not going to tell you. You know, 22 the roster will tell you who goes in there and 23 manipulates the roster. But not that. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible 25 *01:58:10). EFTA00126641 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 281 1 MR. : But like I said, then, when 2 III in passing, because III in the Lieutenant's 3 Office, and I see across, I look out, because, 4 you know, the Alpha door, that door that leads 5 out, she's walking, they let her out through 6 Control Center, at 9:15. like, where she 7 been all this time? 8 MR. : And did you ever talk to 9 her? 10 MR. : I needed to talk to her. 11 MR. : Did you ever question her 12 about that? 13 MR. : No. 14 MR. : No? 15 MR. : I let OIG deal with it. 16 Because once the file came up missing, she 17 didn't report doing rounds. The log was 18 duplicated. I said, something is going on 19 here. I let Mr. know that. I told the 20 Warden. I told OIG. That was part of my - I 21 don't know why it's not in there - I talked 22 about that log. 23 MR. : And was that -- 24 MR. : I talked about her leaving 25 the institution at 9:15. EFTA00126642 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 282 1 MR. : -- and is that with the 2 FBI present? 3 MR. : Yeah. 4 MR. : Okay. Yeah. 5 MR. : And at 9:15, she left between 6 the hours - approximately - 9:10 and 9:15 III. 7 on 08/10. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Just, we have a note in here 10 that the SHU count was corrected by the 11 Lieutenant log, completed by Lieutenant 12 . At the midnight time, the midnight 13 count, where she corrected it from 73 to 72. 14 Do you recall reading that? 15 MR. : Like I said, it was all kind 16 of discrepancies, all kinds of discrepancies on 17 that log. So, III just trying to gather 18 everything, so I could bring it before the 19 Warden, to let him know what's going on. 20 Before we put it in the 583. 21 MR. : That's what we talked 22 about. 23 MR. : Yeah. 24 MR. : We already talked about 25 that, though. EFTA00126643 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Do you understand what 2 saying? 3 MR. : Like, what he's talking 4 about is, after these, and I actually cut that 5 out. So, they're there. 6 2(cY. MR. : So, no, but - he's mentioning 7 - from my understanding is - you're saying that 8 the log afterwards, or throughout the night? 9 That all night, you got -- 10 MR. : When I got -- 11 MR. : -- you were (Indiscernible 12 *02:00:02). 13 MR. -- when I was reviewing the 14 log from the night, from 08/09 into 08/10. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : That morning watch log for 17 08/10? Because it starts off with this one, and 18 then it follows, like this. It was totally 19 bad. It was messed up. It showed - it was a 20 bad log. And then, by the time I was being 21 able to print that log, that log had changed. 22 MR. : All right. 23 MR. : And then, another one was 24 there. That's why I reported it. I don't know 25 why it's not - I reported that to OIG. EFTA00126644 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 284 1 MR. : Okay. So, it was a log - 2 overnight log - that got changed? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : All right. 5 MR. : All right. We'll have to 6 follow up with that. But all right. Anything 7 else? 8 MR. : No. That's it, man. 9 MR. : Thank you. That was 10 very, very helpful. Thank you so much for your 11 time. It is currently 2:07 III., on Tuesday, 12 June 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent 13 with the DOJ OIG, and I am 14 turning off the recorder. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00126645 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 285 1 CERTIFICATE 2 I hereby certify that the foregoing pages 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 represent an accurate transcript of the electronic sound recording of the proceedings before the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General in the matter of: Interview of Brianna Rose Burton, Transcriber EFTA00126646